Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2371

 1                           Tuesday, 8 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused Simatovic entered court]

 4                           [The accused Stanisic appeared via videolink]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 7     you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I'd first like to establish that the situation as far as

12     Mr. Stanisic is present is concerned is the same as last time.  The

13     Chamber has received the non-attendance in court form.  It's -- the

14     report is the same as it was last time.  We further have received

15     yesterday's medical report by Dr. Eekhof, and as far as the Chamber

16     understands, none of the parties have any questions for Dr. Eekhof, and

17     since the Chamber has also no questions for Dr. Eekhof, we could proceed

18     and we intend to proceed on the basis of what is written in that report,

19     that is sessions of five quarters of an hour, then half an hour break,

20     and all that total of five hours, not more.

21             Then could we just verify whether the videolink is working

22     properly.

23             Mr. Stanisic, can you hear me, and can you see me?

24             THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stanisic.  I take it that the

Page 2372

 1     telephone line with Mr. Knoops is functioning as well.  If there would be

 2     any problem in communicating with Mr. Knoops, please inform the Chamber

 3     through the microphone.

 4             As far as the scheduling is concerned, we hopefully will complete

 5     Mr. Miljanic's testimony today.  We'll hear the testimony of a witness

 6     who will testify under the pseudonym either later today and/or tomorrow.

 7     Then next week, the 14th of December, and perhaps some of the 15th of

 8     December, we'll hear the witness -- the testimony of Witness B-1058, and

 9     finally on Tuesday the 15th of December we'll hear the evidence of

10     Witness B-1108.

11             The Chamber was informed that the redactions were made in

12     relation to the Exhibit D5.  The redactions were made in both versions on

13     e-court, and the Prosecution is invited to upload an unredacted version

14     of the statement which would then be admitted under seal.

15             Could you confirm, Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  We will do that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.

18             The Chamber received a request for provisional release from the

19     Stanisic Defence.

20             Mr. Groome, the Chamber would like to receive a response rather

21     soon.  When do you think you could --

22             MR. GROOME:  We may have it today, Your Honour, if not tomorrow

23     morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That at least would mean that not by the mere

25     fact that alleged response was there that the whole matter would be

Page 2373

 1     frustrated, so the Chamber will then consider the application and your

 2     response.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             Then there's one more matter.  In the decision delivered by the

21     Chamber on the 3rd of November in which the provisional release of Mr.

22     Stanisic was denied, the Chamber noted that it would follow up on the

23     appropriateness of the direct contacts of the Stanisic Defence with the

24     court's reporting medical officer, Dr. Eekhof.

25             The Chamber would like to invite any interested party in this

Page 2374

 1     case, of course most likely the Stanisic Defence and the Prosecution, to

 2     submit written submissions in relation to this issue by the end of this

 3     week in they wish to do so.

 4             These were the procedural matters, and I would like to ask

 5     Madam Usher to escort the witness into the courtroom, Mr. Miljanic,

 6     unless there's -- may I take it on the basis of the time you've used with

 7     Mr. Miljanic up to this time, Mr. Weber, that I think it was scheduled

 8     for one hour and a half in chief, and we have used now approximately -- a

 9     little bit over half an hour.  That's --

10             MR. WEBER:  My understanding is that 36 minutes have been used

11     and 54 would remain.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what I would call just a bit over half

13     an hour.

14             I understand your answer to be that you expect to stay within

15     those limits.

16             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No other matter then.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19                           WITNESS:  MARKO MILJANIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Miljanic.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that the solemn

24     declaration that you gave at the beginning of your testimony last week is

25     still binding.  That means that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

Page 2375

 1     and nothing but the truth.

 2             Mr. Weber, will now continue his examination-in-chief.  Please

 3     proceed.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Weber:  [Continued]

 5        Q.   Last week you were discussing the commencement of the tank and

 6     artillery attack on Skabrnja at approximately 7.30 in the morning.  How

 7     long did this artillery attack last on the 18th of November, 1991?

 8        A.   It didn't stop all -- all day on the 18th of November.

 9        Q.   Where was the artillery fire landing in Skabrnja?

10        A.   On the entire village and the surrounding villages with Croatian

11     population.

12        Q.   Could we please address the areas within Skabrnja.  Could you

13     please describe the type of buildings located in the eastern and western

14     parts of the village.

15        A.   The entire village of Skabrnja was without any economic

16     facilities or military facilities.  The only facility with any economic

17     significance was an agricultural co-operative.  Then there was a church,

18     the co-operative school, the clinic, and nothing else.  All the rest were

19     agricultural facilities, that is, farms, and there were also residential

20     buildings.

21        Q.   With respect to these farms and residential buildings, where in

22     Skabrnja were they located?

23        A.   From one end of the village to the other.  Actually, it was all

24     mixed.  There was no industrial zone or anything like that.  The farms

25     were family farms.  They belonged to the families that lived in Skabrnja.

Page 2376

 1        Q.   With respect to the church, co-operative school, and clinic,

 2     were these buildings located within the centre of Skabrnja?

 3        A.   Yes, in the centre.  And they are still there today, restored.

 4        Q.   Just to be clear, what was the name of the church that was

 5     located in the centre of Skabrnja?

 6        A.   It was the church of the Holy Virgin Mary.

 7        Q.   On page 2870, lines 1 through 9 of exhibit P96, you state:

 8             "I found out from the couriers who came to report to me that

 9     there was general chaos, that the tanks from Zemunik Gornje and Biljana

10     were heading our way, and that's -- that was as far as I knew myself."

11             How often were couriers reporting back to you on the 18th of

12     November, 1991?

13        A.   A dozen times or so.  I can't give you a precise number, but

14     thereabouts.

15        Q.   When you state that, "tanks were heading our way," what direction

16     did you learn that the tanks were coming?

17        A.   From the direction of Zemunik Gornje and from the direction of

18     the Zemunik airfield.  It's also known as the Zadar airport, but actually

19     it's the Zemunik airfield.

20        Q.   Were there any forces that were moving in behind these tanks?

21        A.   Yes.  I've already said that before the attack of the tanks there

22     was artillery fire, then the tanks came, and they were followed by

23     infantry.

24        Q.   Approximately how many infantry soldiers followed the tanks?

25        A.   I cannot say.

Page 2377

 1        Q.   Can you give an estimation?

 2        A.   Well, to make a personal estimate, I would say that there were

 3     about 1.000 infantry soldiers.

 4        Q.   On page 2871, lines 14 and 15, of Exhibit P96, you state:

 5             "At that point I lost track of time and everything.  At that

 6     point, planes started firing cluster bombs."

 7             At what point in time did planes start firing cluster bombs on

 8     Skabrnja?

 9        A.   It was in the morning.  There was several bombings, but it may

10     have been around 10.00 or 11.00.  I cannot tell precisely.  That was the

11     first bombing, and it was followed by three to four more waves of

12     bombers.

13        Q.   These three to four waves of bombings that followed, did they all

14     occur on the 18th of November, 1991?

15        A.   No.  The first bombing of Skabrnja was on the 2nd of October,

16     1991, when the first cluster bombs were dropped.

17        Q.   Sir, I understand that.  What I'm asking you is after the initial

18     bombing on the 18th of November, you described that there were subsequent

19     bombings.  Did these subsequent bombings occur on the same day?

20        A.   I think so.  Three or four more.  I'm not sure.  I don't

21     remember, but I think it was all on the same day.

22        Q.   What forces did these planes belong to?

23        A.   They belonged to the Yugoslav People's Army.

24        Q.   Where were the planes targeting with these cluster bombs on the

25     18th of November, 1991?

Page 2378

 1        A.   The first -- the first bombs fell near the school, and the church

 2     followed, and the entire village centre.

 3        Q.   The church that you're referring to, is that the one located in

 4     the centre of the village?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At approximately 11.00 in the morning, did you observe any

 7     helicopters involved in the attack against Skabrnja?

 8        A.   Yes.  I have already said that about 1 kilometre from the centre

 9     of the village to the west helicopters were observed taking infantry to

10     that spot.

11        Q.   Approximately how many helicopters did you observe?

12        A.   Four helicopters, and there were four landings.  I saw it through

13     all the smoke, and there were no less than four helicopter landings.

14        Q.   Where were you when you observed these helicopter landings?

15        A.   At that moment I was at Razovljeva Glavica.

16        Q.   Where did you see the helicopters land?

17        A.   It's right beneath my house.  It's a meadow called Jabuka.

18        Q.   What did you see when the helicopters landed?

19        A.   I saw people getting off the helicopters and immediately taking

20     combat positions.  That's what I saw.

21        Q.   On page 24322, lines 23 to 25 of Exhibit P95, you describe these

22     individuals as members of special forces, and you state:

23             "They wore dark blue uniforms and berets, and they were getting

24     out of helicopters.  Three or four helicopters landed two or three times

25     and soldiers got off."

Page 2379

 1             Were the dark blue uniforms solid in colour or camouflage?

 2        A.   I cannot tell.  I wasn't close enough.  I know that they were in

 3     dark uniforms, but I'm really not sure whether that dark colour was dark

 4     blue or black.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Were you able to determine whether or not the uniforms

 6     were camouflage?

 7        A.   I wasn't able to determine whether they were camouflage or plain.

 8        Q.   Approximately how many soldiers disembarked from the helicopters?

 9        A.   Each helicopter carries 40 men.  That would add up to -- well, I

10     never made the calculation, but probably a company of the usual strength

11     at the time in accordance with the military establishment.

12        Q.   How did you know that these soldiers were special forces?

13        A.   I could tell by their headgear.  They wore berets.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have a brief intervention, if I

17     may.  It seems that the witness is being led to a wrong reply, and it's

18     based on the wrong quoting of the exhibit of P95.

19             On page 24322, the witness was -- said the JNA special forces and

20     several times over.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any wrong quotation, you may invite the

22     other party or address me so that I can invite the other party to

23     literally quote.  So if any summary or any way of referring to a

24     statement or to transcript is inaccurate, then the other party's invited

25     to do it literally.

Page 2380

 1             And you said 24322.  Which line?  Where do you find a wrong

 2     quotation?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm referring to

 5     lines 15 and 19 on that page.  The witness in his previous testimonies

 6     designated the forces as such.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What he said in his previous testimony is now for

 8     Mr. Weber to quote.  I want all parties to refrain by -- when making

 9     objections to already indicate what they consider relevant, important,

10     wrong, whatever.  So if you say that Mr. Weber mischaracterizes what the

11     witness said, you may say so, that he mischaracterizes, and you may point

12     at the specific part of the testimony, and then Mr. Weber is invited to

13     rephrase his question with an accurate quoting of what he refers to.

14             You said --

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's what I tried to do, Your

16     Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Lines 15 and 19.  Mr. Weber, could you please

18     rephrase your question.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I have accurately phrased it.  Lines 15

20     through 19 was a statement by a Prosecutor in the former proceedings.

21     What I'm referring to is the actual statement of the witness in his prior

22     testimony, which is what I've drawn the Court's attention to.  And the

23     question that was posed to the witness was.

24             "What kind of special forces did you think they were at the

25     time?"

Page 2381

 1             His answer references based on his former JNA experience, he

 2     thinks that they're:

 3             "Special forces or elite units judging by their uniforms, their

 4     appearance and subsequent activities.  I think they were special units,

 5     probably a special unit," and he does not reference particularly JNA.  So

 6     I've gone with the witness's description.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When you're reading could you please slow down

 8     so that our interpreters and transcribers can do their job.

 9             Now, let me go back to what the initial question was.

10             Yes.  If you would ask the witness -- let me see.  Until now you

11     have asked him to describe, and you're now referring to the previous

12     testimony.  Let me just have a look at that.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe the question posed to the

14     witness was on page 9, line 12, and it's a rephrase of what was asked of

15     him in the Milosevic testimony, that being what -- what kind of special

16     forces did this --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- in the -- could you take me to the exact

18     page and line where this was said.

19             MR. WEBER:  The question posed immediately before the objection

20     was on page 9, line 12.  I asked:

21             "How did you know that these soldiers were special forces?"

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And what's the source for knowledge of special

23     forces?  Apparently the Milosevic transcript.

24             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give me exact page and line so that we can

Page 2382

 1     verify.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Page 24322 --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  -- line 20, through page 24324, line 6 would

 5     encompass the full answer, which I'm trying to now elicit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, the transcript of the Milosevic case,

 7     on the top of page 24324, indicates that the witness was explaining why

 8     he thought they were special forces.  That's in evidence.  Therefore,

 9     what is wrong with Mr. Weber asking further details as how he recognised

10     them as special forces, whether that was a mistake or whether that was

11     right, but at least that's the evidence.  What remains of your objection?

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree with

13     that.  I merely think that for reasons of fairness toward the witness,

14     the context should be laid out of what the witness is explaining.  The

15     witness is speaking about JNA special forces, and he never mentions

16     anything else in his statement.  That is the essence of my objection.

17             My learned friend Mr. Weber is mentioning special forces without

18     making it clear what kind of special forces he's referring to, and we

19     have many statements by -- made by this witness, and he speaks only about

20     one category.

21             I will not take any more of the Court's time.  I believe it is

22     clear enough now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's particularly a matter to be raised in

24     cross-examination, Mr. Petrovic.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

Page 2383

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   How did you know that these individuals who disembarked the

 3     helicopters were special forces?

 4        A.   Although much time has elapsed since, my knowledge is based on

 5     the -- on my being a member of the JNA for a long time, and I was also

 6     commander of a special forces unit of the JNA, so that as a former

 7     professional soldier, I was able to tell.

 8        Q.   How were you -- how were you able to tell?

 9        A.   Special forces as opposed to regular JNA forces wore different

10     headgear.  All special forces wore berets, and regular soldiers and

11     regular units wore the so-called Tito cap.  That's one difference.  And

12     then there's another -- they also differed in weapons.  Special forces

13     also had special weapons and special equipment.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Special weapons being what?

15             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] They had weapons with silencers,

16     that is, automatic light weapons such as Heckler pistols at the time, or

17     Uzis.  Then grenade throwers, smoke grenades and other equipment, and

18     silencers more specifically.  They were also part of their standard

19     equipment.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   These weapons that you just described, were these the types of

23     weapons that were being carried by the special forces on the 18th of

24     November?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  That was obvious.

Page 2384

 1        Q.   Where did the special forces go after they disembarked the

 2     helicopters?

 3        A.   Well, they moved towards the village of Skabrnja.  That was, say,

 4     4 or 500 metres away from the houses.  They set out towards those houses

 5     in the settlement of Skabrnja.

 6        Q.   Did you learn what these soldiers did from these special forces

 7     once they reached the village?

 8        A.   On that day I found out a lot of things.  Now, whether this was

 9     correct information or not is something that I cannot be sure of.

10     However, the most terrible things happened.  Killings.  People, civilians

11     were being dragged out of basements.  There were killings, massacres.

12     That's what happened.

13        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, I know you've detailed the events of the 18th of

14     November in your testimony in previous cases.  What I have remaining are

15     just a few general questions before discussing some exhibits.

16             On page 4 of the English version of Exhibit P97, you reference

17     that Skabrnja was attacked by at least a thousand soldiers as part of the

18     "strategic action."  And on page 2875, lines 19 through 21 of Exhibit

19     P96, you state:

20             "They wanted to trap the village completely and not to let anyone

21     leave this place alive.  That was the objective.  We learned about this

22     in the army.  It's called 'Pliers'."

23             Could you please explain what you meant in your statement by

24     "strategic action."

25        A.   This is what I meant:  I meant that Skabrnja was not a regular

Page 2385

 1     tactical target.  It was a strategic target with a view to intimidation,

 2     killing, and showing by way of an example what would happen to others,

 3     because Skabrnja was a purely Croat village.  That's what I meant, that

 4     it was strategic.  It was a politically strategic question.

 5        Q.   Did you recognise the military strategy being employed by the

 6     military forces attacking the village of Skabrnja?

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops.

 9             MR. KNOOPS:  I hesitate, but still I question the competence of

10     this witness as a lay-witness to go into a question of military

11     strategics.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, once we hear that he recognised this, then of

13     course the next question would be what he then exactly recognized, and

14     that will further enable us to see whether this is within the scope of

15     what a witness of fact can tell us or whether it's beyond that scope.

16             Please proceed.  Could you answer the question?

17             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Could the question be repeated and

18     then --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I rephrase it for you.  What did you see or

20     what did you observe which made you believe that this was the strategic

21     action as you described?

22             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Well, because I saw that in this

23     very small area there -- it was -- it was the fact that such forces were

24     sent to deal with such a small number of people in such a very small area

25     like that village.  That's how I came to think that.

Page 2386

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   What did you mean by "Pliers"?

 3        A.   Well, I studied that, and that's what I did for 23 years in the

 4     former JNA.  That meant surrounding and destroying.

 5        Q.   How is the strategy employed?

 6        A.   It was deployed quite literally in Skabrnja.

 7        Q.   How was this done?

 8        A.   Well, first of all, they used artillery pieces to bomb in order

 9     to soften or, rather, to intimidate people so that they would escape into

10     basements, and then with the fast infantry and helicopters they

11     surrounded the area and they dealt with these civilians and members of

12     the reserve MUP force, et cetera, and they got them all out and killed

13     them.

14        Q.   After the 18th of November, 1991, did you have occasion to go to

15     the pathology department in Zadar?

16        A.   Yes.  I don't know exactly how many days after the 18th.  I came

17     to the pathology department when the dead bodies from Skabrnja were

18     brought in, including my father, my brother, and seven relatives of mine.

19     I came there to identify the bodies.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the witness please have Prosecution 65 ter 712.

21     Actually, could we please have page 2 of both the B/C/S and English

22     version of that exhibit.

23        Q.   What is now being shown to you is an official record of Croatian

24     soldiers and civilians who were killed.  This document comes from the

25     Zadar county, Skabrnja municipality dated 9 July 2002.

Page 2387

 1             Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to number 6, Vladimir

 2     Horvat.  Do you know the profession of this individual?

 3        A.   Well, I know what Vladimir Horvat did.  He was a waiter at the

 4     company in Zadar.

 5        Q.   Do you know if he died on the 18th of November, 1991, and if so,

 6     how?

 7        A.   Yes.  This is how he died:  He got out of Skabrnja during the

 8     18th, but afterwards he returned to get his wife and two young children

 9     out.  That's where they waited for him and killed him.

10        Q.   Was he with anyone else at this time?

11        A.   Yes, with Nedeljko, Nedeljko Juric, Nedeljko Juric, and Perica

12     Gaspar.  They had returned to get their wives and children out.

13             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have page 3 in both the B/C/S and

14     English versions of this exhibit.

15        Q.   Sir, directing your attention to number 12, Slavko Miljanic.  Is

16     this a relative of yours?

17        A.   That's my brother, Slavko Miljanic.

18        Q.   What was your brother's profession on the 18th of November, 1991?

19        A.   He worked at the furniture factory on the island of Preko near

20     Zadar.  He was a carpenter.

21        Q.   Do you know how he died on the 18th of November?

22        A.   His wife, my sister-in-law, told me about that.  He had escaped

23     into the field, and then he returned.  He took his son, and they killed

24     him while he held his son in his arms.

25        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to number 14, Mile

Page 2388

 1     Pavicic.  What was this individual's profession?

 2        A.   His father has some construction equipment, bulldozers and the

 3     like.  He used to work with his father.  He was a construction worker.

 4     He drove this machinery to places where they would work.

 5        Q.   Do you know how he died on the 18th of November, 1991?

 6        A.   I do.  I do.  My mother told me about that.  When they came to

 7     that basement, they took him and his father out, as well as all other

 8     males.  They took them all out of that basement.  There was no sound of

 9     shooting.  Silencers were used -- a silencer was used by one single man

10     who killed all of them, from age 20 to 85.  I must add that based on the

11     testimony of my mother and all the rest who were there, these people that

12     killed them had masks on their faces, and they had silencers.

13        Q.   Sir, you've already described number 16.  I'd like to direct your

14     attention to number 17, Ante Razov.  What was Mr. Razov's profession in

15     1991?

16        A.   He was a barber.  He worked in Zadar at the barber shop there.

17        Q.   Do you know how he was killed on the 18th of November, 1991?

18        A.   Unfortunately, again my mother saw what they did to him.  He was

19     caught alive.  They were beating him and banging him on the asphalt road.

20     My mother and the other women didn't know who these people were, but one

21     of the members came there and put a gun and fired into his head, got a

22     knife out, cut off his ear, wrapped it up and put it in his pocket, and

23     then they threw him into the bushes.  So he was still alive when thrown

24     in there, and -- and he was dying for over an hour.  So he suffered

25     greatly.  There were other women there who were witnesses to that.

Page 2389

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have page 4 of the B/C/S and English

 2     versions of this exhibit.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to number 18, Marko Rogic.

 4     What was his profession?

 5        A.   He was a salesperson.  He is my next-door neighbour.

 6        Q.   Do you know how he died on the 18th of November, 1991?

 7        A.   When my brother died, roughly.  I don't know exactly, but it was

 8     in the same place.

 9        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to numbers 20 through 22.  Are

10     these individuals related?

11        A.   Twenty and 21 and 22, they're brothers, Bude, Ivica, and Milenko

12     Segaric.  They're three brothers.

13        Q.   Could you please tell us what the professions of each of these

14     brothers were.

15        A.   Bude Segaric was a worker, a construction worker.  Ivica Segaric

16     worked for the then company of Jugolinija on ships, so he was a sailor,

17     and he had just come home a day before that.  Miljenko worked at the

18     Boris Kidric textile factory in Zadar.

19             MR. KNOOPS:  Apologies, Your Honour.  Mr. Stanisic asked to be

20     excused to use the men's room.  Yes, we have no objection to continue.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have agreed on that with Mr. Stanisic, then

22     we will continue, and he's excused for the time being.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   With respect to Bude and Miljenko Segaric, do you know how they

Page 2390

 1     died on the 18th of November, 1991?

 2        A.   I do know.  They were captured in Tomo Pavicic's basement.  They

 3     were loaded onto a refrigerator truck, a truck for refrigerating meat

 4     together with some young boys, and they were taken to Benkovac.  Five

 5     days later Ratko Mladic handed over their bodies to the Croatian side in

 6     Zitnic near Sibenik.  I don't know how they had been killed.

 7        Q.   With respect to number 21, Ivica Segaric, how did he die on the

 8     18th of November, 1991?

 9        A.   He got killed in Pavicic's basement.  He was with his wife and

10     two children in the basement, and they dragged him out and killed him.

11        Q.   Directing your attention to number 23, Sime Segaric, what was his

12     profession?

13        A.   Sime Segaric worked in the Adria Fish Factory in Zadar.  He was a

14     worker, and he was late for work on that day.

15        Q.   Do you know how he was killed on the 18th of November, 1991?

16        A.   He was the man who came to tell me in the morning that tanks were

17     coming in from Gornje Zemunik.  I issued him the order to have everyone

18     hide in cellars, basements, and I haven't seen him since.  I don't know

19     how he actually got killed.

20             MR. WEBER:  If the witness could please have page 5 of this

21     exhibit.

22        Q.   Directing your attention to number 24, Nediljko Skara.  What was

23     his profession?

24        A.   As far as I can remember, I think he was a construction worker.

25     Well, I know very little about him because he doesn't come from my part

Page 2391

 1     of the village.  He comes from a different part of the village.  He

 2     wasn't very highly educated or anything like that.  He was an ordinary

 3     worker.

 4        Q.   Do you know how he was killed in November 1991?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I heard people from the village talking about it.

 6     I don't know whether it's correct or not.  I guess it is.  They captured

 7     him -- or, rather, killed him while he was trying to flee, and he was

 8     running by the railroad and that's where he was killed.  I didn't see it,

 9     but that's what people say.

10        Q.   Directing your attention to number 25 Stanko Vickovic.  What was

11     his profession?

12        A.   He was a driver in the Jadran Construction Company.  He's also a

13     neighbour of mine.

14        Q.   Do you know how he died on the 18th of November, 1991?

15        A.   I don't know how he died.  I don't know.

16        Q.   With respect to these individuals, in the B/C/S version of this

17     document it refers to them as Branitelj.  Could you please explain the

18     differential between Branitelj and Vojak, in Croatian?

19        A.   There's a major difference involved.  Vojnik is a soldier, a

20     person who has a soldier's uniform, soldier's equipment and weapons.

21     Branitelj is a defender who can be a member of the civilian protection.

22     I have to say that at that time we based all of this on what used to be

23     done in the former JNA, so they were what was known as members of the

24     civilian protection.  They and their families were supposed to be given

25     some compensation because they had nothing.  The Croatian state

Page 2392

 1     registered them as defenders so that they would give pensions to their

 2     wives and children.

 3        Q.   Sir, I would like to ask you about one individual under the list

 4     of civilians on this same page.  If I could direct your attention to

 5     number 3, Luka Bilaver.  Do you know how this individuals -- strike

 6     that -- what condition he was in on the 18th of November, 1991?

 7        A.   Although he was a neighbour of mine, I hadn't seen him for a long

 8     time, because he was an old man who was bedridden because he had had a

 9     stroke.  I had not seen him for over a month when I come from Zadar to

10     Skabrnja and things like that.  However, I always asked the members of

11     his family how he was doing, and they would tell me that he was

12     bedridden.  And that's how he was before the 18th and on the eve of the

13     18th.  I don't know what happened to him.

14        Q.   Did you ever see him alive after the 18th of November, 1991?

15        A.   Well, I've already said that even before the 18th I certainly

16     hadn't seen him in about a month.  I did not see him alive then or a

17     month before that or afterwards.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

19     Prosecution 65 ter 712.  The Stanisic Defence has already indicated that

20     they have no objection to its admission.  I do not know about the

21     Simatovic Defence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no

24     objections.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 2393

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P99, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P99 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   In the last paragraph of Exhibit P97, you indicate that you

 6     reviewed photographs and you recognise a number of individuals depicted

 7     in these photographs.  Sir, did you have occasion to review Prosecution

 8     65 ter 2811 prior to your testimony, and is this exhibit a photo album

 9     that is referenced in Exhibit P97, your ICTY statement?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   What is depicted in the photographs in this album?

12        A.   Dead bodies of my fellow villagers from Skabrnja in front of

13     their houses and things like that.

14        Q.   Were these individuals killed on the 18th of November, 1991?

15        A.   Probably.  Probably.  I did not see that, only in photographs,

16     but on the basis of what people told me -- well, as I've said, I did not

17     see that.  Yes.

18        Q.   Yes, but did you recognise these individuals as people that were

19     killed that day?

20        A.   How would I not recognise them?  All of them are my neighbours,

21     relatives, and friends.

22        Q.   Are any of the individuals depicted in these photographs armed?

23        A.   None of them were armed.

24             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2811,

25     again without any objection from the Stanisic Defence.  I do not know

Page 2394

 1     from the Simatovic Defence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P100, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P100 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Mr. Weber, is there any reason why we didn't see it on our

 9     screens or -- when you refer to --

10             MR. WEBER:  There are a lot of photos in this photo album.  They

11     are of a very graphic nature.  They do have a forensic purpose.  They

12     include photographs of the relatives of this witness.  At this time, due

13     to the efficiency of the proceedings, he's described them in his

14     statement, and we're tendering them in bulk.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would I be surprised the witness to know

16     whether this is 65 ter 2811 or anything else.  If only the cover would be

17     shown, then at least we'd know what we're talking about.  I don't think

18     that under the present circumstance that it causes any major problems,

19     but as a rule, I'd like to see on the screen, not necessarily to be done

20     now, but as a rule I'd like to see on the screen what we're talking

21     about.

22             MR. WEBER:  Very well, Your Honour.  In the future I will do so.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, P100 is admitted into evidence.

24             Any further questions?

25             MR. WEBER:  The only remaining series of questions related to a

Page 2395

 1     second photo album and then I was going to tender that exhibit.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, please proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, did you have occasion to view a second photo album

 5     that depicted various locations in Skabrnja?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   What is depicted in the photographs of these locations in

 8     Skabrnja?

 9        A.   The main road of Skabrnja and houses.  They are all houses in the

10     neighbourhood of mine.

11        Q.   Do these photographs depict --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, again, why not, if only one or just the

13     cover page of that photo album on the screen so that apart from you and

14     the witness, the triers of fact also know what we're talking about.

15             MR. WEBER:  If I could please have page 2 of 65 ter 2812.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recognise what is depicted in this photograph?

17        A.   It's the church in Skabrnja demolished.

18        Q.   What church?

19        A.   The church of the Holy Virgin Mary.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have page 13 of this exhibit, the

21     lower left-hand photo.

22        Q.   Sir, do you recognise what is depicted in this photograph?

23        A.   This is the main road that goes through the village of Skabrnja

24     and the surrounding houses.

25        Q.   On the 18th of November, 1991, what did you see occurring on this

Page 2396

 1     road?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, one second.  When you are referring to

 3     pages, are you referring to e-court pages or to any other pages?

 4             MR. WEBER:  I've been referring to the e-court page.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I have -- for page 13 out of 18, I have four small

 6     photographs on one page.  That's the one I have on my screen for page 13.

 7             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.  There are four photographs --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You're showing the left bottom photograph on page

 9     18.

10             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   On the 18th of November, 1991, what did you see occurring on this

14     road?

15        A.   This is the stretch of road right before the village centre, and

16     tanks were driving down the road, four tanks, actually, in combat

17     formation, and they had civilians as a human shield in front of them,

18     women, children, and elderly people.  About 200 civilians were walking in

19     front of the tanks.  And not only in front but also on the sides.

20             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the entire page.

21        Q.   Do you recognise the other locations that are depicted on this

22     page?

23        A.   This is the very centre of the village.

24        Q.   And does -- do these photographs accurately depict destruction

25     that was done to the village of Skabrnja?

Page 2397

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Have you had occasion to also view the other photographs that are

 3     contained in this album?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do these other photographs also accurately depict the destruction

 6     that was done to the village of Skabrnja?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2812 into

 9     evidence, again with no objection from the Stanisic Defence.  I do not

10     know about the Simatovic Defence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I ask Madam Registrar to assign a number,

14     could you tell us when these photographs were taken, by whom, and who

15     selected them?

16             MR. WEBER:  These photographs come from a collection of -- that

17     were -- they relate to -- another witness will be offering descriptions

18     of this.  This witness's knowledge, I believe he's testified to and

19     that's the scope of it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I wasn't aware that another witness would

21     explain to us who took them and when they were taken, but if we hear that

22     evidence at a later stage, that's fine.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This will become Exhibit P101, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P101 is admitted into evidence.

Page 2398

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I may.  Just so it's clear for the

 2     record, what I was showing in court is page 13 in e-court, which is also

 3     page 13 of now Exhibit 101.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I was so busy trying to find it on my

 5     screen that I missed that you had already indicated that it was the lower

 6     left photograph of that page 13.  So there was no need to ask it any

 7     further.  Apologies for that.

 8             Any further questions?

 9             MR. WEBER:  No further questions at this time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.  Then we'll first have a

11     break.  We will resume at five minutes past 4.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Will it be the Stanisic Defence or the Simatovic

15     Defence who cross-examines the witness first?

16             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, the Stanisic Defence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Miljanic, you will be cross-examined now by

18     Mr. Knoops.  Mr. Knoops is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

19             Please proceed.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Knoops:

21        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, first of all, we would like to express our

22     appreciation for testifying here today despite the difficult

23     circumstances you -- you have faced.

24             Mr. Miljanic, do you agree that the attack by the JNA was purely

25     a military operation by the JNA?

Page 2399

 1        A.   I cannot answer that question.

 2        Q.   Could you please explain us why you can't answer the question?

 3        A.   There were no military targets in Skabrnja, no military targets

 4     at all there.  So I don't know what it's about then.

 5        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, can you recall that in your very first statement in

 6     1996 you -- you gave a name to the JNA operation in Skabrnja?

 7        A.   It was a long time ago.  I may have though.

 8        Q.   In that statement of 1996, you mentioned that it was JNA military

 9     operation, the so-called strategic action.  Can you recall making that

10     statement, sir?

11        A.   It is possible.  I think I did make that statement, but I'm not

12     sure.

13        Q.   Could you please tell us on the basis of what knowledge you were

14     able to qualify that operation as strategic action?

15        A.   It's based on the following facts, and I as a former professional

16     soldier know that:  If it had been a tactical action, and tactics is a

17     lower level than strategy, then there would have been much less military

18     materiel, fewer armaments, and fewer soldiers.  So judging by the scope

19     of military capabilities used, I concluded that this was a strategic

20     action.

21        Q.   So the term "strategic action" was not an official term.  It was

22     a term you gave to that action, that operation; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, do you agree that this strategic action, as you

25     mention it, was actually conducted under command and control of the JNA?

Page 2400

 1        A.   Well, yes.

 2        Q.   Did you see yourself any of the military commanders of the JNA in

 3     charge of that operation?

 4        A.   No, nobody.

 5        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that you at a certain point during this

 6     operation you overheard a conversation between JNA commanders?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Can you give us the names of the JNA commanders of that

 9     conversation?

10        A.   Ratko Mladic, who then was a JNA colonel; and Colonel Cecovic,

11     the commander -- a brigade commander from Benkovac whom I knew

12     personally.

13        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that according to your knowledge, a motorised

14     brigade from the JNA was involved in this operation, this strategic

15     operation you refer to?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that at a certain point that brigade was in

18     need of reinforcements?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that those reinforcements were at that point

21     supplied by the JNA itself?

22        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know who sent reinforcements.  I

23     wasn't in a position to know.

24        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that you overheard a conversation between

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Sekovic and Mr. Vladic whereby the latter promised

Page 2401

 1     him, Sekovic, to provide ammunition and soldiers?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you agree that considering the strength of the

 4     JNA at that time, you estimated it around a thousand soldiers, that the

 5     attack was actually conducted by means of overkill of JNA soldiers?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Would you agree with me that there was no need for the JNA to

 8     have other forces, satellite units, external forces, being there to

 9     support the JNA?

10        A.   With regard to the number of soldiers, I personally think that

11     they didn't need any other forces, but I don't know.  I think they had

12     enough soldiers, actually even too many.

13        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, you testified about the presence of special forces.

14     Is it correct that these special forces belonged to a parachute unit from

15     Nis?

16        A.   That was my line of thinking at the time based on my knowledge of

17     the situation, but whether or not they really were from Nis I'm not sure.

18        Q.   And does this knowledge extend to the -- all the helicopter

19     landings you mentioned?  You mentioned four helicopter landings,

20     unloading each 40 soldiers.  Is it your understanding that all of these

21     soldiers were from the parachute unit Nis?

22        A.   I know that a helicopter can carry 40 soldiers, so if you add

23     that up, knowing the number of helicopters, you can make your own

24     calculation.  I really don't know who was involved.  I cannot really

25     precisely identify the people involved.

Page 2402

 1        Q.   Were you able to discover what colour of military hats these --

 2     this unit wore?  I refer to the units which were unloaded from the

 3     helicopters.

 4        A.   I only saw that they were berets, but I couldn't tell the colour

 5     because the distance was about a kilometre.  So I couldn't really tell

 6     the colour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, do you agree that those special forces can be

 8     qualified as infantry?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  Knowing their role, that's a way of defining them.

10        Q.   And it is your understanding that this infantry belonged to the

11     JNA in terms of command and control; is that correct?

12             MR. WEBER:  Objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Calls for a legal conclusion and it's speculation at

15     this time without listing the basis of knowledge that he would have for

16     this question or answer.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops --

18             MR. KNOOPS:  I can rephrase.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would think that you need a lot of

20     questions, factual questions, to rephrase the matter, but I leave it to

21     you and carefully listen.  Please proceed.

22             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, did you at that time have any knowledge onto which

24     army those special forces belonged?

25        A.   No, I had no such knowledge.

Page 2403

 1        Q.   Did you later learn about any relationship, if any, between those

 2     special forces and any army?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.  Afterward, I found out, a few days later.  In a

 4     conversation I learned how civilians were killed, that they were killed,

 5     in accordance with my knowledge, and they were killed by masked people

 6     with painted faces, who had weapons with silencers, but that's what I

 7     learned subsequently.

 8        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, I come to that point later if I may.  My question

 9     is to you:  Did you later learn whether there was any relationship

10     between those special forces which landed through the helicopters and any

11     army?

12        A.   I didn't learn anything about that.  Who their leader was, what

13     their role was, I never found that out.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, I'm just -- and I'm also looking at you,

15     Mr. Weber.  Is there any dispute about who could use helicopters at that

16     time under those circumstances?  If there's a dispute about it, then of

17     course it's a matter to -- first of all, to explore what kind of

18     helicopters these were.

19             I'm just addressing you before --

20             MR. KNOOPS:  In my view there can be no dispute that at that time

21     only the JNA was able to have helicopters.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Because I tried to understand your line of

23     questioning, Mr. Knoops.  If 40 people come out of a helicopter, which

24     you say must be a JNA helicopter, then apart from whether you explore

25     what kind of link there is, then to ask was there any link with an army,

Page 2404

 1     then I would say at least they were on board of a helicopter which

 2     belonged to a JNA army, whatever the witness says.  So, therefore, I'm

 3     asking myself what the testimony is -- what the questioning is heading

 4     for.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, Your Honour, I was -- my -- the basis of my

 7     question was, of course, was -- were these special forces under command

 8     and control of the JNA.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. KNOOPS:  There was an objection.  The Court invited me to lay

11     a foundation for coming to this very question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. KNOOPS:  If the Prosecution has no dispute about these

14     helicopters being part of the JNA, I don't see the objection anymore.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, command and control -- I mean, you can

16     transport people without being fully in command of control of the OC

17     [phoen].  You can provide services, but your question was, is there any

18     relation with any army, at least a relation which seems to be not in

19     dispute is that they were on board helicopters belonging to an army, and

20     the parties agree on that.  So I would then expect you to say, do you

21     know anything about how they got into the helicopters, who was on board

22     of the helicopter, because -- instead of saying, is there any link with

23     an army -- I'm --

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just trying to -- yes, Mr. Weber, may I take it

Page 2405

 1     that you did not in any way dispute that these were JNA helicopters or --

 2             MR. WEBER:  This is a matter that's in dispute, so I'm sorry for

 3     cutting you off there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 5             MR. WEBER:  It's not in dispute, I believe that the JNA had

 6     involvement in this attack, and there was co-ordination amongst units

 7     including the JNA in this attack.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Helicopters were not JNA in your -- I'm talking

 9     about helicopters having 40 people on board, whether these were JNA

10     helicopters.  If that's in dispute, fine.  Then --

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may, I think I'm a bit more

12     familiar with this.  There will be evidence led in this case that the

13     unit, the Red Berets, on some occasions used JNA helicopters and on other

14     occasions used their own helicopters.  So they were in possession of

15     their own helicopters, so --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Big ones containing 40 people.

17             MR. GROOME:  I don't know off the top of my head, Your Honour,

18     how many people would fit in them, but I'm not sure.  It's -- I'm not

19     sure it's a resolved matter.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we therefore should ask about what kind

21     of helicopters we're dealing with.  Please proceed.

22             MR. KNOOPS:  Your Honour, just an observation.  The Court, I

23     believe, last week intervened by saying that the counsel who was not

24     examining or cross-examining the witness cannot be supported by the

25     co-counsel.  Just observe that the -- or the counsel of the Prosecution

Page 2406

 1     is at least supporting one of the objections of the leading counsel.  We

 2     believe that the Court should then allow also the Defence counsel to, if

 3     necessary, support leading counsel in the examination or

 4     cross-examination.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there are two different matters.  The first

 6     is putting questions to the witness and to consult with co-counsel or

 7     being advised by co-counsel.  I have no recollection that I ever in this

 8     case or any other case prevented counsel from consulting each other on

 9     matters.  It's a different matter, but I'm not going make a lot of

10     problems about it.  It's certainly highly uncommon that where one counsel

11     examines a witness that the other one also then jumps in without any

12     further explanation, whereas consulting between counsel or answering

13     questions from the Bench, which are not questions to a witness, seeking

14     certain information, if their one counsel says, "I'm better acquainted

15     with the matter than my colleague," under those circumstances I think

16     it's appropriate that other counsel takes over, and I want to clearly

17     distinguish between the two situations.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you, Your Honour, for this clarification.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, were you able to identify the type of helicopters

21     you mentioned, the four helicopters which unloaded the 40 special forces

22     units?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Could you please tell us what type of helicopters you -- you saw.

25        A.   MI-8, Soviet made.  These are helicopters that I personally flew

Page 2407

 1     on on many occasions.  That's how I know.

 2        Q.   And am I correct by saying that these helicopters were used by

 3     the JNA at that time?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Witness, till what time, what year those

 6     helicopters were used by the JNA?

 7        A.   All the time.  To the present day they are being used.

 8        Q.   Did you ever, Mr. Witness, see that type of helicopter being used

 9     by other military forces than the JNA?

10        A.   They were used by the Croatian Army afterwards when it was armed.

11     They used those very same helicopters.

12        Q.   Did you ever see those helicopters being used by paramilitary

13     forces?

14        A.   They were used by the MUP.  I don't know about paramilitaries,

15     what they used.  In Croatia it was only the MUP, and I don't know about

16     the rest.

17        Q.   Referring to MUP, you -- you referred to MUP Croatia; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.  The MUP of Croatia, yes.

20        Q.   So it's fair to say that the helicopters which were landed and

21     described you -- belonged to the JNA; is that correct?

22        A.   Probably.  Probably.

23        Q.   You testified that these special forces were directed to certain

24     areas in the city.  Do you have any information, direct knowledge, or

25     information afterwards, which led you to the conclusion that these

Page 2408

 1     special forces were under supervision of the JNA?

 2        A.   I did not see that personally.  I personally did not see that,

 3     but on the basis of what I learn later -- I don't have any personal

 4     knowledge, but during conversations with all these people who were in the

 5     village -- well, I wouldn't want to go into that now, not unless it's

 6     absolutely necessary, but these people who told me about it know about

 7     this.  I do not have any direct knowledge, because if I had knowledge of

 8     that, I probably would not be here today.

 9        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, is it correct that apart from the soldiers of the

10     JNA and these special forces, also local people were involved in the

11     crimes you described?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Who were these people?

14        A.   Local people from the villages around that area wearing JNA

15     uniforms.  They were there too.  I repeat once again:  I did not see it

16     myself.  I'm saying this on the basis of what my family told me, what my

17     mother told me, what my friends told me.  They knew these people very

18     well.  I didn't.

19        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that the family members who told you so are

20     able to give you names of the local people who supported the JNA at that

21     time in JNA uniforms?

22        A.   Every one of these persons has his or her own version, and I

23     don't know who to trust.  As for the deaths of my nearest and dearest, I

24     have at least ten versions, and I did not see that.  So it involves the

25     death of my father, too, and I really wouldn't want to be involved in

Page 2409

 1     guesswork.

 2        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, is it correct that there were residents from the

 3     municipality of Zemunik Gornje involved in the attack?

 4        A.   I repeat once again:  On the basis of what survivors said.  I did

 5     not see it myself.

 6        Q.   But did you hear from those survivors that residents were

 7     involved in the attacks from the municipality of Zemunik Gornje?  Is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   I heard that.  I heard that.

10        Q.   Is it correct that residents were involved in the attack from the

11     village of Nadin, N-a-d-i-n?

12        A.   From the village of Nadin, on the very next day after Skabrnja,

13     it was destroyed.  I don't know if there were any Serbs in Nadin.  I

14     really don't know.

15        Q.   Did you hear from survivors that residents of that village were

16     involved in the attacks?

17        A.   I don't know Nadin very well, but the village behind Nadin --

18     well, people talked about some people, but I didn't see that myself.  I

19     heard about it, though, but I did not see it myself.  I don't have any

20     direct knowledge.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Miljanic, in the 2003 statement you mentioned the

22     involvement, apart from the JNA, of paramilitaries.  Can you recall

23     giving that statement?

24        A.   Probably.

25        Q.   Could you have said that the village of Skabrnja fell into the

Page 2410

 1     hands of the JNA and paramilitary units?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  If we could just please have a follow-up question on

 5     that.  I was going to object to the form of the question.  It's a bit

 6     vague in terms of what it's referring to.

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, I refer to the statement.  I cannot make it

 8     more precise because that's in the statement of the witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If that's the literal language the witness

10     used, then it's fair to put the question to him if it, however, rephrases

11     or summarises then on the basis your objection it should be literally

12     quoted.  I have not checked yet.

13             MR. WEBER:  I was just noting it because there's a time reference

14     before in the phrasing of it.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You mean whether it refers to the 18th or an

16     earlier date.

17             Mr. -- could you give that?

18             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, Your Honours.  The statement of the witness, 19

19     June 2003.  It's --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I think the time-frame Mr. Weber is seeking for

21     is about Skabrnja to fall in the hands of the JNA.  I take it that you're

22     talking about the 18th of November.  Is that --

23             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, it doesn't specify.  The statement is:

24             "Before Skabrnja fell into the hands of the JNA and the

25     paramilitary units, one of the houses had been entirely destroyed by a

Page 2411

 1     cluster bomb."

 2             That's in the first paragraph of the 2003 statement, without time

 3     reference, I'm sorry, but this what's in the statement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's before Skabrnja fell into the hands.

 5             MR. KNOOPS:  Yeah.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution has no objection on the basis of

 7     whether or not the Stanisic Defence is accurately quoting it, just -- I

 8     believe the way the question was formed in and of itself it is vague as

 9     opposed to the time reference that was particularly now referenced for

10     the record.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And the appropriate question would be, "When you

12     said in your statement this and this and this, what time-frame did you

13     have in mind?"  If you would please explore this, Mr. Knoops.

14             MR. KNOOPS:

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your 2003 statement it's been said:

16             "Before Skabrnja fell into the hands of the JNA and paramilitary

17     units, one of the houses had been entirely destroyed by cluster bombs."

18             What time reference you had in mind when you gave this statement

19     to the Office of the Prosecution?

20        A.   The 18th, the 18th of November.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Miljanic.  Is it correct that when you referred to

22     the paramilitary units in this statement, you're actually referring to

23     the local individuals who supported the JNA in the attacks as mentioned

24     by you?

25        A.   I did not mean the locals only.  I also meant those who had fled,

Page 2412

 1     that is to say the policemen who had joined the then project that was

 2     underway, namely policemen, members of the different units that had been

 3     established at the time.  So it's not only the JNA, and it's not only

 4     from the neighbouring villages.  There were also paramilitary formations,

 5     and there was the police.  They were -- the police were a paramilitary

 6     formation at the time as well.

 7        Q.   So please tell us what are exactly the paramilitary formations or

 8     units you refer to in your 2003 statement.

 9        A.   The JNA was the legal army, the legal army.  It was the active

10     legal army.  All the rest were paramilitary formations.  These were

11     different volunteer units, then the local population, the forces of the

12     then SUP.  So these were groups of people who were not part of the JNA.

13     All the rest were paramilitaries.

14        Q.   And the elements of local populations, forces of the SUP,

15     volunteer units, and police units, did you see yourself that they were

16     part of this paramilitary formation?

17        A.   I did not see this myself.  It was only on television, only on

18     television then.  And also, I heard it in conversations, because I was a

19     member of the Ministry of the Interior of Croatia, so I did have some

20     knowledge.

21        Q.   When was it then you -- that you saw on television that these

22     formations were part of the paramilitary unit you refer to?

23        A.   Well, on television, before that I saw -- well, quite simply even

24     during 1991 I saw Mr. Martic and all the rest, all the rest who stated

25     publicly on television what they would do and so on.  So it was no

Page 2413

 1     secret.  It was on television every day in that period.

 2        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, do you recall that in the Martic trial you

 3     testified that you were not able to define the name of the paramilitary

 4     unit and that you did not know about the composition of them?

 5        A.   Correct.  Correct.

 6        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that in that trial you were asked also about

 7     the paramilitary units, and you told the Court that these were Chetniks?

 8     Is that correct?

 9        A.   I don't know that anymore.  Perhaps I did say it, but I don't

10     remember anymore.

11        Q.   Would you agree with me that if you testified in the Martic case

12     that these paramilitaries were referred to as Chetniks, would you agree

13     to me that this was your testimony in the Martic case, or do you dispute

14     that?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if I could have a line and page

17     reference, maybe this is a matter that whether or not he actually said it

18     in his testimony would be clear.

19             MR. KNOOPS:  It's page 2918, line 11 and lines 22 till 25,

20     running to page 2919, lines 1 till 6.

21             MR. WEBER:  Counsel, am I correct in you're referring to

22     Judge Moloto's question as just before we went to the break you said that

23     these paramilitaries were referred to as Chetniks?

24             Is that how that's starting?

25             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.  And it starts at line 11 -- 10, 11.

Page 2414

 1             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.  I'm clear on the reference.  The only

 2     objection that the Prosecution would have is that the question that was

 3     phrased to the witness was that he was calling them Chetniks.  I believe

 4     it's clear from his testimony that others were calling them that.  I

 5     believe that the question should reflect the reference.

 6             MR. KNOOPS:  That's fair.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please rephrase your question.

 8             MR. KNOOPS:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it correct that you testified in the Martic case

10     that you learned from other individuals that those paramilitary

11     formations were referred to as Chetniks?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Is it correct, Mr. Miljanic, that those Chetniks were

14     predominantly local Chetniks?

15        A.   No.  No, that's not correct.

16        Q.   Could you place -- please explain why that's not correct?

17        A.   Well, because quite simply at the time on television and

18     everywhere else there were these Chetniks.  They introduced themselves.

19     They said where they came from, from which particular place in the former

20     Yugoslavia.  They introduced themselves.  They sang.  They danced the

21     Kolo.  All sorts of things.  Some of them were bragging about the fact

22     that they were from a particular part of Serbia, those from Bosnia, et

23     cetera, so I came to that conclusion.

24        Q.   But what you learned from the survivors is that there were local

25     Chetniks involved.

Page 2415

 1        A.   Yes.  I heard that as well.  That's true.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that it was your understanding at that moment that

 3     those local Chetniks were organised?

 4        A.   Well, probably someone had organised them.  It's not that they

 5     came of their own free accord.  That would be so unclear to me that a

 6     group of people would get together and just randomly go to a particular

 7     place.  Someone must have organised them.

 8        Q.   Do you know who organised them?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Were you able to see whether those Chetniks - you learned later

11     from people that they were referred to as Chetniks - whether those

12     Chetniks wore emblems?

13        A.   Your Honours, we saw that every day on television.  We saw it on

14     television every day, Chetnik emblems.  I mean, I really don't know how I

15     would answer this question now.

16        Q.   What do you mean with "Chetnik emblems"?

17        A.   Well, these people were mostly unkempt, unshaven.  They had long

18     beards.  They had these black caps, and on them was the Chetnik emblem,

19     the Serbian eagle.  That was the emblem of the Chetniks.  That was no

20     secret.  It was a public matter.

21        Q.   And is it correct that those Chetniks had black faces?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.  Your Honour, I beg

24     your pardon.  Just a brief intervention.  I'm sorry for interrupting.

25     Just a brief intervention with regard to the transcript.  Page 45, line

Page 2416

 1     14.  The witness said Subara, whereas here it says black caps.  That

 2     could be relevant for understanding the transcript.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you're not supposed to tell us what

 4     the witness said.  You can say, Could we verify that line.  That's the

 5     way in which -- then we ask the witness, "After you said they had long

 6     beards, could you please repeat what you then said," because what I want

 7     to avoid at any cost is that the parties are telling not only the Court

 8     but also the witness what he said, how it has to be translated, where it

 9     went wrong.  Therefore, again you're perfectly entitled to seek

10     verification of something, but it should be done in the way as I just

11     said.  So therefore then you say there may be a translation error.  May I

12     take you to page so-and-so, line so-and-so, and then we'll verify that

13     without already telling the witness what he's supposed to have said or

14     what the interpreters should have told us.  That's the neutral way in

15     approaching these matters.  I spent a bit more time on it now because

16     that's what I expect the parties to do.

17             Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution just wanted to note that the question

19     posed at page 45, line 18, which is the question that's pending, is vague

20     in terms of what's referenced in terms of "black faces."  What does that

21     mean?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  First of all, let's take matters one by one.

23     First, one of your answers, Mr. Miljanic, was that those persons are

24     unkempt, unshaven.  They had long beards, and then you said something in

25     addition to that.  What did you then tell?  What did you then say?

Page 2417

 1             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] That they wore caps.  They wore

 2     black caps.  That is a form.  I mean in our part of the world, in the

 3     Balkans.  It's called Subara.  And also there are the caps called

 4     Sajkaca.  So there were the Subara-type caps and the Sajkaca caps.  They

 5     are two different types, but what matters is the emblem on the cap.  That

 6     is the eagle with four --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the last word.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I therefore understand that you wanted to say

 9     that they were wearing black head covers of different types and that they

10     had emblems on it, an eagle, and then you said "four," where I would --

11     four what?  Four S's, yes.

12             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Four S's.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Weber, of course a black face could be

14     someone from the African continent, it could be someone who has painted

15     his face black.  It could be everything.  Let's first hear the answer of

16     the witness and see whether that could already give an answer to the

17     question.

18             MR. WEBER:  Very well.  That wasn't the impetus for the

19     objection, because the witness has already previously described two types

20     of -- and I don't want to give an answer in front of the witness -- two

21     types of mechanisms by which their face might appear black.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, confusion is almost complete by now.

23             Mr. Knoops, being aware now of -- of the black sides of this

24     examination, could you please rephrase your last question and then

25     continue.

Page 2418

 1             MR. KNOOPS:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you hear from the survivors that those Chetniks

 3     had blackened their faces?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   In what way were those faces blackened?

 6        A.   They had painted their faces with black paint so as not to be

 7     recognisable, and they also wore the masks of special units, that is to

 8     say special masks.

 9        Q.   Referring to special units or special masks, is it correct that

10     these units or masked belonged to the JNA?

11        A.   Possibly.  Possibly.

12        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, is it correct that you also learned from the

13     survivors that children of 12 or 13 year old were part of those Chetniks?

14        A.   Yes, that's what I heard.  I didn't see it myself, but I heard as

15     much.

16        Q.   Did you hear whether these children came from the region?

17        A.   People said that they were.  I repeat, I didn't see them, but

18     that's what people told me.

19        Q.   My final question is, Mr. Miljanic, during the

20     examination-in-chief of the Prosecution, you confronted with Exhibit P99,

21     Exhibit 712, repeatedly referred to "Those people killed my relatives.

22     They came to the basement."  Is it correct that with referring to the

23     worth "they" or "these," you refer to these Chetniks?

24        A.   I meant all those people who took part in the attack against the

25     village.  I cannot tell who it was that killed those people.  There's no

Page 2419

 1     way for me to know, and I cannot testify wrongly here.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Apart from the masks, you also testified about the

 3     use of silencers on the weaponry.  My question is:  Do you know whether

 4     those silencers were used by the JNA?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes, they were used by the JNA too.

 6             MR. KNOOPS:  No further questions.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Knoops.

 8             I am looking at the clock.  We are -- yes.  It makes sense to

 9     first already start the cross-examination of the Simatovic Defence.

10             Could you give us an estimate as to how much time you need,

11     Mr. Petrovic.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in my estimate we

13     won't need more than 20 minutes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, twenty minutes would just keep us below or

15     approximately at the one hour and 15 minutes.  So please proceed.

16             Mr. Miljanovic -- I say Mijanovic, but I should say Miljanic.

17     Mr. Miljanic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic, and

18     Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Miljanic, on behalf of Mr. Simatovic and his

23     Defence, I first want to give you my condolence for the loss that you

24     suffered at the time we are discussing now.

25             I am about to ask you some questions about what you have

Page 2420

 1     discussed with my learned friend Mr. Knoops.  I'll just try to clarify

 2     some things.

 3             In the statement you gave to the investigators of the OTP in

 4     1996, that is practically five years after the events we are dealing

 5     with, in paragraph 27 of that statement, which is on page 5 of the

 6     English version, you say that you could observe that several helicopters

 7     landed on the field called Kuca Bilova, which is located between the

 8     villages of Zemunik and Skabrnja.  "JNA soldiers were unloading something

 9     there but I couldn't see what."

10             Tell me, please.  Are you referring to the very same helicopters

11     that you were talking about with Mr. Knoops?

12        A.   No.  It was one helicopter that flew as far as Kuca Bilova.  The

13     other helicopters went to the meadow called Jabuka.

14        Q.   Was that also an MI-8 helicopter that belonged to the former JNA?

15        A.   Yes, it's a transport helicopter which can be used to transport

16     both troops and materiel.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In some previous statements of yours, when you

18     mentioned these disembarkations from helicopters, you mentioned that

19     soldiers dressed in black uniforms and wearing berets disembarked from

20     them; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You also told us in those statements that those people ran out of

23     those helicopters and immediately took combat positions where they

24     disembarked.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2421

 1        Q.   Likewise, you said that those were younger, neatly groomed

 2     soldiers that ran out of the helicopters.

 3        A.   I never referred to their neatness, but I saw that they were

 4     younger.  I probably said that, although I didn't see their faces.

 5        Q.   You spent a number of years in the JNA.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you ever take part in an exercise that was like this

 8     disembarkation that you watched?

 9        A.   Yes.  More than a thousand times I took part in such exercises.

10     A helicopter was like a home to me.

11        Q.   So what you saw happening on that 18th of November is what you

12     had trained thousands of times?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Are all these reasons that made you conclude that this is almost

15     positively a JNA disembarkation from the helicopters you saw on that day?

16        A.   I must repeat --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers] -- to the form of the question

19     the way it's phrased.  I believe that the witness has not been conclusive

20     in whether he believes this was positively a JNA disembarkation from the

21     helicopters.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first hear the answer of the witness.  At this

23     moment I deny the objection, but --

24             Could you answer the question?  From your training experience,

25     this is -- looked like or almost positively a JNA disembarkation?

Page 2422

 1             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I understand the question.  Yes,

 2     normally, but there was the same strategy that both the military and the

 3     police forces had, because during this embarkation from helicopter or a

 4     combat vehicle you immediately take combat disposition.  The tactic is --

 5     the tactics is the same both in the military and the police.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I denied the objection.  I said first

 7     let's hear the answer of the witness, and of course we heard the answer

 8     of the witness.  Mr. Petrovic, there is an implicit suggestion in the

 9     question that there is something as an exclusively JNA way of

10     disembarking from a helicopter.  Therefore, the question is -- apparently

11     the witness noticed that there are others who are disembarking exactly

12     the same way, so therefore there seems to be a suggestion which is not in

13     any way supported by any further evidence and for that purpose relatively

14     useless.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just want to follow

17     up on that.

18        Q.   In your statement from 1996 you said, when you described that

19     situation in the same paragraph, namely paragraph 27 on page 5 of the

20     English version:

21             "I assumed that they were the JNA special forces judging by their

22     appearance."

23             So it seems to you at the time that they were members of a JNA

24     special unit.

25        A.   If I -- if that's what I said, then I agree.

Page 2423

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I would now like to tackle an another topic, if I

 2     may.  You worked for the JNA for a number years.  You were stationed in

 3     Zadar until you left that army; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How long did you work in Zadar?

 6        A.   About seven years.

 7        Q.   I assume that in those seven years you knew the JNA units

 8     stationed in Zadar well.

 9        A.   Very well, because at the time I was a commander of a pioneer

10     company, and I maintained all the facilities under my command in Zadar.

11        Q.   From your earlier statements I also gathered that your staff was

12     at Knin, and that is that you went to Knin and other towns in the north

13     of Dalmatia often.

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   I suppose that you knew military facilities, barracks, depots, et

16     cetera, in the area well.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you tell us whether you know what happened with the weapons

19     of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of Croatia in 1990?

20        A.   The JNA seized it and put it into their own warehouses, and I

21     took part in that directly, namely in the seizing of the weapons and

22     placing it in JNA warehouses.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what -- what quantity of weapons we're talking

24     about and what types of weapons in your assessment?  Are we talking about

25     tons, tens of tons?

Page 2424

 1        A.   Tens of tons in Zadar, and it was probably more or less the same

 2     in other garrisons, but that's an assumption.  However, I know about the

 3     conditions in Zadar.  There were two brigades of Territorial Defence

 4     which numbered about 1.500 men, and they were disarmed and the army took

 5     their weapons.

 6        Q.   So the weapons were two brigades of the Territorial Defence were

 7     seized from their warehouses and placed into JNA warehouses?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Do you know which warehouses?  Warehouses in the Zadar barracks?

10        A.   Yes, in the barracks in Zadar, namely the barracks of Turska Kuca

11     [phoen] in Zadar.  That's where the weapons were taken.

12        Q.   When you say two brigades at the Territorial Defence, we're

13     talking about weapons for at least 2 to 3.000 fighters.

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   You mentioned in your statement that JNA units that were in

16     Zadar, Sibenik, and other towns on the Dalmatian coast were evacuated

17     through your village.

18        A.   Sibenik is out of the question here because there is no

19     connection between the communication of Knin-Benkovac-Sibenik, and

20     Zadar-Benkovac-Knin, those are two different communications.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Take a breath now and then.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I instruct the witness also to take a breath.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Is it correct that the barracks in Zadar, under the agreement

Page 2425

 1     between the JNA and the Croatian authorities, were evacuated at the time

 2     we are talking about, namely in the fall of 1991?

 3        A.   I don't know what was signed or agreed, because at the time I was

 4     an inspector with the police administration of Zadar.

 5        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, I'm not asking you about the contents of those

 6     agreement -- agreements, but as far as you know, the barracks where you

 7     served in Zadar, were they moved from Zadar to the hinterland?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Was equipment and were armaments and materiel also moved from

10     Zadar to the hinterland?

11        A.   Probably they were.  I know that fuel was taken from the airfield

12     in tanker trucks when the so-called "Hague Truce" was signed.

13        Q.   Was the barracks that you mentioned a short while ago, were they

14     weapons from -- of the Territorial Defence were placed also moved out of

15     Zadar?

16        A.   I don't know for sure, but it's possible.  I wasn't in Zadar at

17     the time.  I spent some time in Split, and then later I was in Skabrnja,

18     so I wouldn't know for sure.

19        Q.   Tell me just briefly, if you know, around Knin where were the

20     largest warehouses containing weapons and military equipment?

21        A.   Strmica; Golubic; Krka, the Krka warehouses.  I don't know under

22     who's jurisdiction Licka Kaldrma was.  Then there was something at Crvena

23     Zemja [phoen].  There was the Senjak barracks and others.  Yes, and

24     Padjani.  That was a big depot.  That's -- that's it as far as I know.

25        Q.   And as far as I understand while you were with the JNA you

Page 2426

 1     visited those warehouses?

 2        A.   Yes.  Or, rather, no, I didn't visit.  I was in charge of the

 3     maintenance of all facilities, and my engineers and technicians went

 4     there personally to visit.

 5        Q.   As the commander in charge of maintenance of those warehouses, I

 6     suppose that you knew at least roughly what is inside those warehouses.

 7        A.   Roughly, yeah, I did.  You needed a special permit to access

 8     those facilities.  I must clarify that every garrison had its own

 9     construction unit, and I only had Zadar and Benkovac under my

10     jurisdiction, so I don't know what exactly there was at Knin, but what I

11     do know I can tell you.

12        Q.   Let me ask you something else now very briefly.  You know the

13     composition of the 9th Corps of the JNA?

14        A.   No, not fully.

15        Q.   I'll just be asking general questions.  I don't expect exact

16     figures from you.  Just tell me how many brigades there were to the

17     corps, if you know.  If not, we'll move on.

18        A.   I cannot answer that because I really don't know.

19        Q.   Do you know whether the corps had its own military police?

20        A.   It must have had.  I was a soldier, so in line with the

21     establishment it must have had.  Not only a corps but also smaller units

22     such as a battalion would have a military police squad.  Every unit had

23     their own military police.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I just wanted -- I just wanted to tell the witness

25     that if you just ask whether the corps had some military police, that a

Page 2427

 1     yes or no would do instead of elaborating in quite some detail, because

 2     it might be that he tells us matters that you're not interested in.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Very briefly about something you have already discussed with my

 6     learned friend Mr. Knoops.  You called the operation at Skabrnja a

 7     strategic operation.  In that operation several branches took part,

 8     infantry, armour units, aviation; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   That type of operation requires a high level of co-ordination

11     between all these branches and services involved; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And as far as you know, the only structure that could provide

14     that co-ordination is the command of the JNA in charge of that area; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions.  Thank you,

18     Your Honours.  Or I apologise.  I do need a moment still.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question, if I may.

21        Q.   At the Zemunik airstrip, were there any air force units of the

22     JNA stationed there at the time we're talking about?

23        A.   Yes, and not only the -- these forces.

24        Q.   Do you know what kind of aeroplanes they had, which types?

25        A.   There were Jastreb and Galeb planes and also helicopter units,

Page 2428

 1     but there were also training planes such as Utva and others.

 2        Q.   The helicopter units you're mentioning also had MI-8 helicopters;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have

 6     no further questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

 8             Mr. Weber, not to start yet, but is there any need to re-examine

 9     the witness?

10             MR. WEBER:  I do have a couple questions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then put them to the witness after the

12     break.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need for them?

15             MR. WEBER:  Not long.  No more than five minutes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, I'm looking at you and at the same time

19     I'm addressing Mr. Stanisic.  Five minutes, would that still be possible?

20             MR. KNOOPS:  I just got a call from the detention unit.

21     Mr. Stanisic prefers a break.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that, but in view of what has

23     to be done during the break, otherwise we'd have a break of half an hour,

24     and then we would have five minutes of examination, and then need perhaps

25     another break of half an hour which would be -- so therefore --

Page 2429

 1             Mr. Stanisic, five more minutes, would that still be possible?

 2             THE ACCUSED STANISIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Weber, I'll strictly keep you to that time

 4     estimate.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Weber:

 6        Q.   Mr. Miljanic, you were asked today about conversations that you

 7     overheard on the 18th of November 1991.  I'd like to direct your

 8     attention to Exhibit P96, page 2878, line 25 through 2879, line 8.  In

 9     this section you describe a conversation that you overheard from Petar

10     Radmanovic.  Do you recall this?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Was the only voice that you heard during this conversation that

13     of Mr. Radmanovic?

14        A.   No, there were several voices.

15        Q.   Was one of those voices identified for you that you heard during

16     this conversation?

17        A.   Yes.  The villagers told me who that was.

18        Q.   Were these individuals who were listening to the conversation at

19     the same time as yourself?

20        A.   Yes, because in that basement where my station was there were 80

21     civilians.

22        Q.   Who was the voice that was identified, that was heard during this

23     conversation of Mr. Radmanovic?

24        A.   I think it was the voice of a gentleman called Klempo.  That's

25     what the villagers told me.  I didn't know him personally.  His real name

Page 2430

 1     is Goran Opacic.  He was also known as Klempo.  They recognised his voice

 2     because he had threatened me several times and outlined to me what would

 3     happen to me on that day.

 4        Q.   Who is Goran Opacic?

 5        A.   He was a former member of the Zadar MUP.  He was the commander of

 6     the Intervention Unit of the MUP, but he had already left the MUP when I

 7     joined the MUP.  I knew him from sight but no more than that.

 8             MR. WEBER:  That's it, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

10             The Bench have no questions.

11             Mr. Petrovic, any question that arises from re-examination?

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave I

13     would ask only one question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One more question would still keep us within the

15     five minutes.  Please proceed.

16                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it correct, Mr. Miljanic, that you don't know

18     what Goran Opacic did on the 18th of November?

19        A.   No, I have no idea.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Miljanic, this concludes your evidence.  I'd

22     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and staying here for

23     a couple of days to continue your -- your testimony.  I am aware that it

24     might not have been easy for you to talk about events as you described

25     them which have a deep impact on the personal life of persons who are

Page 2431

 1     experiencing such events.  Thank you for coming.  I wish you a safe trip

 2     home again.

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I just say one

 4     sentence?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not common, and it -- I do not know what

 6     you want to say is appropriate or not.  Therefore, I have some

 7     difficulties in allowing you.  We appreciate that you came.  If -- unless

 8     you would like to add anything to your testimony.  That's a different

 9     matter, if that's the case, but rather not in terms of judgement, but if

10     you want to add any factual thing, you're invited to do so.

11             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I just wanted to say briefly that

12     I apologise deeply to the Bench if I may have left something out.  At

13     this trial as at every previous trial, I wanted to say the truth and

14     nothing but the truth, and I will answer any call by this court, because

15     I feel it is my duty toward all those who are no longer with us, and

16     thank you once again, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's appreciate that you did your utmost best to

18     tell us everything you remembered.  Then again a safe trip home again.

19     Could you please follow Madam Usher.

20             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 6.00.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 2432











11 Pages 2432-2433 redacted. Private session.















Page 2434

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22             Since we are waiting anyhow for the next witness, Mr. Knoops, I

23     look back at what happened as far as one counsel against two counsels is

24     concerned.  It was not even questions, it was objections to the questions

25     phrased by other counsel, which is even more different than what I

Page 2435

 1     thought.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           WITNESS:  WITNESS JF-006

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good evening, Witness.  Before you give evidence,

 6     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn

 7     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

 8     but the truth.  The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.  May I

 9     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

10             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

13             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

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Page 2436











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15                           [Open session]

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Page 2443

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24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

25                           [Private session]

Page 2444











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25                           [Open session]

Page 2458

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and with apologies to

 3     interpreters and transcribers for the unexpected problem in the

 4     communication with the UNDU which caused even further delay.  We adjourn

 5     for the day, and we resume tomorrow, the 9th of December, quarter past

 6     2.00 in Courtroom II.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day of

 9                           December, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.