1 Tuesday, 15 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused Simatovic entered court]
4 [The accused Stanisic appeared via videolink]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would
7 you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. This
9 is case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic, and
10 Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Before we continue, the Chamber received the form where
13 Mr. Stanisic has declared that he does feel not well enough to attend
14 court, that he does not waive his right to be -- to attend, to be present
15 in court, but that he wants to use the videolink facilities for following
16 the proceedings.
17 Any observation to be made in relation to this? If not, then the
18 Chamber, under those circumstances being similar to the previous days,
19 decides to continue to hear the case.
20 A few procedural matters. The Chamber expected submissions on
21 pseudonyms due yesterday, I think.
22 Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I had promised to provide --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. GROOME: -- them yesterday but -- I apologise. A number of
1 other matters occupied my time. I will try to do that today and have it
2 to the Chamber. It's a very short submission, and it's in essence what
3 I've indicated to the Chamber yesterday with the Prosecution. The
4 procedure would be in the case of a witness that had multiple pseudonyms.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would really appreciate to receive
6 that today, because the Chamber has on its mind and already puts on the
7 record now that VWS will be invited to see whether they want to file any
8 submissions in relation to what you suggest, Mr. Groome. Therefore, it
9 would be appreciated if you, first of all, perhaps already send a
10 courtesy copy to the VWS, and at the same time, it's now on the record
11 that VWS is invited to make further submissions if they wish to do so,
12 and if they do not wish to do so, to let the Chamber know.
13 Next matter, Witness Kirudja who testified in September. We
14 instructed him not to speak with anyone about his testimony, but we
15 couldn't do that forever. I would like to hear from the Simatovic
16 Defence whether they have already considered whether or not they think
17 they should recall Mr. Kirudja to be further cross-examined or at least
18 to request a recall. Well, sooner or later we'll have to decide whether
19 or not Mr. Kirudja is again free to speak. If you have -- if you do not
20 know, then I would like to set a time limit that not later than
21 mid-January the Simatovic Defence should make up its mind as to whether
22 or not they would like to see Mr. Kirudja reappearing for further
23 cross-examination. If so, then of course a request should be filed and
24 good cause should be shown.
25 Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Since you
2 have instructed me to put in a request, I'm not going to take up court
3 time. That's what we'll do. I'm grateful. And I think that that is the
4 most effective and efficient way of proceeding at this point in time. So
5 if we put in a request to allow us by mid-January ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. Well, it's -- there may be some confusion.
7 When I said you should file a request, it would be once you've made up
8 your mind whether you want to recall Mr. Kirudja for further
9 cross-examination. If you have no intention to do so, and I do not know
10 whether you've made up your mind already, then of course a simple
11 observation in court would do to say, "We are not insisting on
12 Mr. Kirudja to be recalled," but if you want to recall him, then you have
13 time until mid-January, to make a request for him to be recalled or to
14 inform the Chamber that there's no need for that. And at this moment,
15 so, therefore, most important is that you should make up your mind and
16 then following what your position is, take the appropriate action, that
17 is either to inform the Court that you do not seek reappearance of
18 Mr. Kirudja for further cross-examination or that you would seek his
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, Your Honour.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber was informed by the OTP that in the
23 response to -- to the request, the urgent request for provisional release
24 filed by the Stanisic Defence that where it was said that the questions
25 the Stanisic Defence would put to Dr. Eekhof but not received prior to
1 them being put to Dr. Eekhof, that that is a mistake and that the
2 questions had been communicated to the Office of the Prosecution prior to
3 them being put to Dr. Eekhof. If that is the case, Mr. Groome, then it
4 is hereby on the record.
5 MR. GROOME: It's partly true. It doesn't explain all of the
6 circumstances, Your Honour, but if Your Honour is aware of the
7 circumstances, I intend to put all of the circumstances in a filing
8 before the end of this week related to the submissions of the Registrar
9 yesterday pursuant to Rule 33(B).
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have not seen those, as a matter of fact. So I
11 still have to look at them. But I'm full time in court these days.
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, I appreciate the Chamber is quite busy these
13 days. Your Honour, the only facts that I think need to be put forward
14 that contrary to prior practice, the e-mails were sent to me alone from
15 Ms. Verweil, where in the past they had been sent to other members of my
16 staff. There is daily communication between Ms. Verweil and Mr. Laugel,
17 so I did not see them, but I do recognise that I did receive two copies
18 contemporaneous with the time that Dr. Eekhof received questions. So I
19 do accept that I did receive them and wish the response to be corrected
20 to reflect that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any further need to -- this seems to
22 be not the core of the problem. It seems to be a procedural matter in
23 the margin of it. Do we need to pay further attention to it, or could we
24 leave it to it being put on the record as it is now?
25 MR. GROOME: I'm satisfied with that, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Stanisic Defence as well? Then we leave it to
3 Finally, there was a request by the Prosecution to reply on the
4 statement of Witness JF-005 tendered under Rule 92 ter.
5 Now, the Chamber will adopt a practice in which we avoid further
6 written submissions apart from the initial one and a response to avoid
7 further written submissions until the witness appears. However, if a
8 reply could have the result of the witness not travelling to The Hague
9 under those circumstances, if that is what will be argued, so as that the
10 witness is unfit to testify at all or -- but if we're talking about
11 92 ter or viva voce, both would be with the witness travelling to The
12 Hague. If that is the case, the Chamber will, as a general rule, not
13 allow further written submissions, and we will deal with the matter once
14 the witness has arrived in The Hague
15 reasons by -- accused by the parties, often in the presence of the
16 witness, just as with protective measures.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may say with respect to this
18 particular witness, it does change rather dramatically the preparation
19 that the Prosecution will engage in whether we know prior to the winter
20 break whether the application will be granted or whether it will be
21 denied. So if -- I'm not sure if the Chamber is expressing that it does
22 not intend to ultimately resolve the issue until the witness arrives here
23 in The Hague
24 preparations to know in what manner the evidence of the witness will be
25 adduced prior to the witness being -- arriving in The Hague.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll further consider this. It's not entirely
2 clear to me yet. I mean, if a witness testifies under Rule 92 ter, then
3 of course a lot of questions not a need to be put to the witness. If he
4 testifies viva voce, I take it that his 92 ter statement would still
5 serve as considerable guidance for viva voce testimony, but I don't know
6 where the dramatic, and I think that's what you said, yes, the
7 dramatically changes the preparation. Could you explain in one or two
9 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we go into private session for that,
10 Your Honour?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. For the next witness to
15 be called protective measures are in place, and we would have to turn
16 into closed session.
17 [Closed session]
11 Pages 2650-2732 redacted. Clos
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Mr. Knoops.
23 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you very much, Your Honour, that you give the
24 Defence an opportunity to address the Court briefly.
25 Yesterday's examination of Dr. Rowell touch upon the potential
1 reporting system during the potential provisional release of
2 Mr. Stanisic. We think we could assist the Court further by informing
3 that we were alerted today that Dr. Vera Petrovic is staying in Belgrade
4 also during the recess, so we would give notice to the Court that if the
5 Court thinks that might be an appropriate additional form of reporting
6 that Court could consider this option in addition to the current medical
7 report existent through the VMA. She basically could physically see
8 Mr. Stanisic in Belgrade
9 reports twice or three times a week, and in the same vein we would like
10 to make sure that the Court understands that our request -- our petition
11 to the Court includes also an alternative, namely a lesser period than
12 the four weeks we mentioned in paragraph 5 of the provisional release
13 petition, and we leave it in the hands of the Court if based on the
14 evidence of Dr. Rowell yesterday such a shorter period of time would
15 further decrease any potential risk of deterioration.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Knoops. I take it that we have to
18 understand your submission that not only that Dr. Vera Petrovic is
19 staying in Belgrade
20 willingness to do such reporting. Is that how we have to understand your
22 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, we didn't -- we're not able to verify
23 whether she's willing but the Court might be in a position to check that.
24 I'm sure because she's treating psychiatrist of Mr. Stanisic, and I don't
25 see an objective reason why she would deny such a potential commission of
1 the Court.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just in order to be sure how we should
3 understand your submission. Any further matter?
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I just have a brief matter to withdraw
5 an objection that the Prosecution made to a Defence exhibit. If it
6 pleases the Court, it should take me less than a minute, I believe.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be any different if that -- we would hear
8 that after the recess?
9 MR. GROOME: Just that we might forget about it, Your Honour, but
10 I'll make a note.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You should not forget about it, Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: I thought it might save the Chamber --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we asked already quite a bit from the
14 interpreters and from transcribers, and then I would really leave that to
15 what is absolutely necessary to be done at this moment and any other
16 matter which is of such urgency that we couldn't wait.
17 Then I wish everyone good times to come. I know that for some it
18 may be more difficult than for others. The Chamber is fully aware that
19 we are not finding ourselves all in a similar position, but at least I
20 hope that everyone can enjoy his Christmas, whether that is in December
21 or whether that is in January, and we'll adjourn until the 20th of
22 January, quarter past 2
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.09 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of
25 January, 2010 at 2.15 p.m.