Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3086

 1                           Wednesday, 3 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     IT-03-69-T, The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we continue, the Chamber received a request by the

12     Stanisic Defence to -- that they would like to question Dr. Eekhof

13     regarding his latest medical report.  That will not be possible today,

14     because Dr. Eekhof is not on stand by, and he is not supposed to be,

15     because the daily reporting system is functioning only if Mr. Stanisic

16     has declared that he feels not well enough to come to court.  So, under

17     the present circumstances, Dr. Eekhof is not -- is not on stand by.

18             There is another matter on -- on whether or not to -- what access

19     there is for the parties to a reporting medical officer who has been

20     appointed by the Chamber, that is -- so, therefore, if you would like to

21     put questions to Dr. Eekhof, then the most appropriate way of dealing

22     with it is to address the Chamber, explaining what the matters are you

23     would like to ask Dr. Eekhof about so that the Chamber can then decide

24     whether or not it will make the reporting medical officer available for

25     further questioning.

Page 3087

 1             That is one issue.

 2             The Chamber has -- apart from that you wanted to put further

 3     questions in relation to the report, the Chamber is totally unaware of

 4     whether you want to -- what kind of questions you would like to put to

 5     him.  And if you would prefer to deal the matter in private session,

 6     Mr. Jordash, you know that you can ask for that.

 7             If it would be, however, on the basis of apparently problems

 8     Mr. Stanisic is having at this moment, medical problems, I will deal with

 9     that after we have dealt with the request to put further questions to

10     Dr. Eekhof, because these are two separate issues for the Chamber at this

11     moment.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps could I accept Your Honours' invitation and

13     go into private session, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

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Page 3088











11 Pages 3088-3092 redacted. Private session.
















Page 3093

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             Then I'd like to ask the Prosecution whether it is ready to call

24     its next witness.

25             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution calls

Page 3094

 1     Mr. Sulejman Tihic.  And the witness will be examined by

 2     Ms. Maxine Marcus.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Then could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tihic, before you given evidence, the Rules of

 9     Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, that

10     you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I would

12     like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  SULEJMAN TIHIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Tihic.  Please be seated.

18             Since we are in open session, I think the curtain

19     shouldn't be ...

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm reminded that the transcript has to scroll so

22     many lines, in order not to be visible from the public gallery.  So the

23     curtain will be open soon.

24             Mr. Tihic, you will first be examined by Ms. Marcus.  Ms. Marcus

25     is counsel for the Prosecution.  You find her to your right.  And please

Page 3095

 1     proceed, Ms. Marcus.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, President Tihic.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Can you hear the translation clearly?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Could you kindly tell the Court your full name, date, and place

 9     of birth.

10        A.   Sulejman Tihic, Bosanski Samac, the 26th of November, 1951.

11        Q.   What educational studies did you complete, sir?

12        A.   I completed elementary and secondary school.  I completed in

13     Bosanski Samac.  And then I got a degree in law in Sarajevo.  After, I

14     worked as an intern in a court of law.  I passed the bar examination.

15     And, in that way, it became possible for me to become a judge, lawyer,

16     prosecutor, et cetera.

17        Q.   What professional positions did you hold between the completion

18     of your education and the beginning of the war.  Just briefly?

19        A.   Very briefly, I was a judge of the municipal court in

20     Bosanski Samac.  Then the public prosecutor for the municipalities of

21     Modrica, Odzak, and Bosanski Samac.  And after that, I was a lawyer.

22        Q.   And so what is your current position, please?

23        A.   Currently, I am president of the chamber of nations of the

24     parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   What was your political position within Bosanski Samac in 1991

Page 3096

 1     and into 1992?

 2        A.   I held political positions as a volunteer.  I did not receive a

 3     salary there.  I was head of a local community in town and president of

 4     the Party of Democratic Action for Bosanski Samac, and then a member of

 5     the regional and then Main Board of the SDA for Yugoslavia at the time.

 6        Q.   President Tihic, that Tribunal has been graced by your presence

 7     in numerous prior case.  As you know, pursuant to Rule 92 ter of our

 8     Rules, the Prosecution has sought leave of the Chamber to tender some of

 9     your prior evidence in this case.  Do you recall providing statements to

10     the Office of the Prosecutor on the 31st of October, 1994; the

11     28th of February, 1995; and the 21st of August, 2001?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to review those statements before

14     coming to court today in a language which you understand?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you confirm that they are true and accurate to the best of

17     your knowledge?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today as you were asked

20     during those interviews, would you provide the same answers?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would first like to

23     tender into evidence the witness's statements dated 31 October 1994,

24     28th February 1995, and 21st August 2001.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  No objections.

Page 3097

 1             Madam Registrar, three statements dated 31st of October, 1994,

 2     that first one would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P173, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P173 is admitted into evidence.

 5             The second statement, 28th February, 1995.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P174.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             The third statement would be 21st of August, 2001.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  And that will be Exhibit P175, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is also is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   President Tihic, do you recall testifying in several prior cases

14     before this Tribunal?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Specifically, do you recall testifying in the Simic case on the

17     13th, 14th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th of September, and the

18     6th, 7th, and 8th of November of the year 2001?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And do you recall testifying in the Milosevic case on the

21     2nd and 3rd of December of the year 2003?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review your prior testimony in

24     those two cases in a language which you understand prior to coming to

25     court today?

Page 3098

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of your prior

 3     testimony in those two cases?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today as you were asked

 6     then, would you provide us with the same answers?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, for ease of reference, now, as the

 9     Prosecution seeks leave of the Chamber to tender these prior transcripts

10     into evidence with the related exhibits, for ease of reference we've

11     prepared a chart.  I can hand out paper copies to all those present.  We

12     also can call up an electronic one if that's of instance.  Similar to --

13     in prior instances we shaded in green the ones that are already admitted

14     into evidence.  So these are the associated exhibits to the prior two

15     cases.

16             Your Honours will also note that we've clearly indicated exactly

17     which case each exhibit is associated to and the page reference in that

18     prior days.  Especially in light of the length of the prior testimony in

19     the Simic case, we thought that would be of assistance.

20             So the Prosecution seeks leave to tender the Simic transcript,

21     the Milosevic transcript, and the associated exhibits to those two, as

22     well as the associated exhibits to the statements that we've just

23     tendered.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any objections against the admission of

Page 3099

 1     the testimonies in the various cases, Simic and Milosevic, and the

 2     associated exhibits?

 3             Yes.

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, Your Honours, we don't have any objections

 5     expect for a query we have submitted to the Prosecution as to exhibit

 6     with ERN number 0582.  That's the Kula camp video which was indeed

 7     admitted in the Milosevic case.  Our query is that we are still in the

 8     blind what the relevance of this video could be for this witness.

 9             So we would just -- would like to make a reservation as to the

10     tendering of that Kula camp video until the moment arrives that the

11     Prosecution makes visible what the relevance is, if any, and the

12     connection between that video and this witness.

13             For the remainder of the statements and exhibits, we don't have

14     any objections.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now the list reads P61 in our case.

16     Therefore, I do understand that apart from whether that it was admitted

17     into evidence in this case and that, therefore, the question -- did I

18     understand well that green means already admitted in the

19     Stanisic Simatovic case?

20             MS. MARCUS:  That is correct, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that -- which is clearly indicated both

22     by the colour and by the P number which is P61.  Which means, Mr. Knoops,

23     that the one and only of these documents which is not in need of any

24     decision, you would like us to not yet decide.

25             MR. KNOOPS:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 3100

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar informs me that three more documents

 3     appearing on this list are already admitted into evidence in this case.

 4             Madam Registrar, would you please give us the -- I would say the

 5     numbers.  But one of the problems with the final exhibit list is that --

 6     no, let me see.  The associated exhibits are unnumbered.  But perhaps you

 7     could guide us to the --

 8             MS. MARCUS:  If I may, Your Honour, just to tell you the

 9     associated exhibits are in numerical order according to 65 ter number.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MS. MARCUS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that was just --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... not all of them do have a

13     65 ter number --

14             MS. MARCUS: -- not all of them have -- correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But to the extent they have, you say they're in

16     numerical order.

17             Madam Registrar, could you guide us by 65 ter numbers to those

18     documents which are already in evidence.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Certainly, Your Honours that.  Would be

20     65 ter 647.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  647, which is the patch of

22     Arkan's Tigers admitted in -- patch of Arkan's Tigers.  Is that the one?

23     And that is exhibit ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  P31.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P31.

Page 3101

 1             The next one, Madam Registrar, would be ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 2466.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  2466.  One second.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Admitted as Exhibit P127.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That is -- well, that's the Territorial Defence

 6     building, I see.  May I take it that it's a photograph of that building

 7     or -- not the building itself, I take it, Ms. Marcus.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Right.  Correct, Your Honour.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  And the third --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

11             And the third one --

12             THE REGISTRAR:  The third document is 65 ter 3567.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  356 ... which is another building.  Yes.  That would

14     be -- that's the Territorial Defence building 2-5.  And that is ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That is Exhibit P128.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P128.

17             Ms. Marcus, you explained to us what the green items are and the

18     yellow items are?

19             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The yellow items were the

20     remaining exhibits that the Defence had objected to.  But upon a brief

21     conversation prior to the hearing, the Defence, Stanisic Defence,

22     informed us that they would not have any objections to those yellow

23     items.  So the list goes in as is.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is then clear.

25             Ms. Marcus, the Chamber is a bit concerned about the volume of

Page 3102

 1     material and if it would -- if we would find no repetitions whatsoever,

 2     but that appears not to be the case.  And there are no objections, so, as

 3     such, the Chamber would incline the -- would be inclined to admit it all

 4     into evidence.  But the Chamber would very much like you to make a great

 5     effort to see whether you can considerably reduce the number of pages

 6     without loosing content.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  We have endeavoured throughout

 8     the preparation for this witness to do just that.  There was a large

 9     volume of exhibits associated with -- with this witness, as we tendered

10     in the 92 ter application.  And we have dramatically reduced it both

11     for -- to avoid duplication to ensure that those documents which we are

12     tendering are directly associated such that the testimony cannot be

13     completely understood in the absence of those documents and photographs.

14             And this -- we've also, of course, in that process taken into

15     careful consideration the objections of the Stanisic Defence.

16             And this is the final result of that -- that process,

17     Your Honours.  And so the Prosecution submits, respectively submits that

18     this collection that you have before you as the reduced list --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm less concerned about the list as I am about the

20     number of pages of the transcripts.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I can see that documents usually are not

23     repetitious, but sometimes you find similar information about the same

24     things in the testimony.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, sir.

Page 3103

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  What exactly happened until the war broke out.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Mm-hm.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's usually the same in the statements and in the

 4     testimony.  And then, of course, the next question is what kind of

 5     details are really necessary, and it's mainly in view of the -- of the

 6     testimony rather than in relation to the associated exhibits.  And I also

 7     see that you can't lose the link.  I don't know whether you have

 8     considered that already.  At least I would like to give you some

 9     additional time to consider whether we can do with less pages.  And it's

10     not only because of environmental concern, saves half a wood sometimes,

11     but also that we keep our evidence focussed on the case without too many

12     repetitions.  So before the Chamber finally decides, the Chamber would

13     like to invite you to further look at this aspect of the evidence you are

14     tendering.

15             You are aware, at this moment, that the attestation is there,

16     there are no objections.  Of course, if you would make a certain

17     selection then, of course, it could well be that then the Defence starts

18     opposing because of the way in which you selected.  But the main concern

19     is that we get a lot of repetition here and there and whether we can

20     avoid that.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  We will certainly endeavour to

22     have another look it.  I would just briefly point out, just directly in

23     response to your comments, sir, that the first two statements of the

24     witness are associated exhibits to the Milosevic case without which it's

25     very difficult to understand the cross-examination because paragraphs are

Page 3104

 1     put to the witness by the accused.

 2             But beyond that -- and we did also cut out the Tadic transcript

 3     and the Seselj transcript already from this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I've seen that your initial list was a longer

 5     one.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will invite, first of all, let's assign

 8     numbers already to the documents you had tendered, awaiting final

 9     decision on admission.

10             That is -- let me now -- we are, at this moment, for the 92 ter

11     material, we are, first of all, and I don't know whether you want to make

12     them one exhibit, that is the sequence 13th of September until

13     20th of September, 2001, and 6 November and 7 November are related to

14     that, although of a later moment but in the same case.

15     6 to 8 of November, same year.

16             Would you like to have them all as one exhibit, or would you like

17     to have them split up in what would it be, nine exhibits.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, we would be very pleased to have it

19     all as one exhibit.  In fact, the entire testimony in the Simic case with

20     your leave.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number to the

23     following transcripts of previous testimony by this witness:

24     13 September, 14 September, 17 September, 18 September, 19 September,

25     20th of September, although a limited portion of that date.

Page 3105

 1     6th of November, 7th of November, and 8 of November, 2001.

 2             That would receive number ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be number P176, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P176 is marked for identification.  And we'd like to

 5     hear further from you, Ms. Marcus.

 6             Then the transcript of previous testimony in the Milosevic case,

 7     which would be 2nd and 3rd of December of 2003.  That would receive

 8     number ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P177, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  To be marked for

11     identification.

12             Then I would like to invite you, Madam Registrar, not now

13     immediately but on the basis of the list provided by Ms. Marcus which,

14     especially then the associated exhibits starting on the third page of

15     that document, to already prepare assignment of numbers for those so that

16     we then have them all together.  And, of course, with the exception of

17     those that are already in evidence.

18             And could you distribute, once you have provisionally assigned

19     numbers, distribute them to the parties.

20             Ms. Marcus, please proceed.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   President Tihic, in your prior evidence, you describe the

23     creation of parallel structures in Bosanski Samac.  Can you explain to

24     the Court what you meant when you described parallel structures being

25     created?

Page 3106

 1        A.   These were parallel structures to the legally elected authorities

 2     in Bosanski Samac and Bosnia and Herzegovina in general.  These

 3     structures were necessary in order to create the Serb Autonomous Region

 4     of Northern Bosnia as well as the Assembly of the Serb Municipality of

 5     Bosanski Samac and the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             When it comes to municipal structures, it meant the formation of

 7     the Serb police and the Serb Territorial Defence staff, as well as the

 8     Serb Secretariat of National Defence, the tax revenue service, and so on

 9     and so forth.

10        Q.   Can you tell us to your knowledge when these parallel Serb

11     structures were established?

12        A.   Concerning the Serbian Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia,

13     covering the area of Doboj, it took place in the fall of 1991.  Perhaps

14     in October or November.

15             As regards the Serb municipality of Bosanski Samac, it took place

16     in February, in late February, of 1992, I believe.

17        Q.   How did you -- how did you come to know that parallel Serb

18     structures had been established?

19        A.   We could learn that from the media, from the various communiqués

20     for the public.  This was no secret at all.  The message was clear: In

21     future, there were not going to recognise any legal authority.  That is

22     to say, the institutions of the Bosanski Samac municipality and the

23     authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina in general.

24        Q.   So what -- what did happen, then, to the constitutional

25     structures, the legal structures, which had existed previously?

Page 3107

 1        A.   They resumed their work.  In difficult conditions though.  They

 2     could not function fully and efficiently across the territory.  They

 3     could not efficiently do that because parallel to the legal structures

 4     there were the illegal structures in place, which in any which way tried

 5     to hinder the work of the legal institutions, starting with the police.

 6     For example, the Serb police said that the Bosnia-Herzegovina police

 7     could no longer enter in the Serb villages or control traffic in those

 8     areas or collect taxes for that matter.  This actually meant that they

 9     stopped attending any meetings of the legally elected and appointed

10     institutions.

11        Q.   Were you present at any meetings where the establishment of these

12     parallel Serb structures was discussed?

13        A.   I didn't participate at the meetings which drafted such

14     proclamations and adopted decisions because such meetings mainly

15     comprised SDS representatives or possibly from some other smaller

16     parties.  However, I did attend another type of meetings at which those

17     decisions were being commented on.  One of such meetings took place on

18     the eve of the attack on Bosanski Samac, when we were all called in to

19     the municipal assembly building.

20             The president of the SDS, Blagoje Simic, proposed that in the

21     area of Posavina, in the four municipalities concerned, there should be a

22     division.  Two were supposed to go to the Croats, Odzak and Orasje; and

23     one municipality to the Serbs, that is to say, Bosanski Samac; and to the

24     Muslims, the municipality of Gracac.  We did not agree do that.  We said

25     that municipalities cannot be controlled or influenced by only one

Page 3108

 1     nation, but, rather, that the population was mixed and their institutions

 2     should reflect the ethnic makeup, irrespective of who was in the

 3     majority.  That is to say, it should have comprised Serbs, Croats, and

 4     Muslims.

 5             I believe we were given a deadline of seven days to accept their

 6     proposal.  They said that if we refused, they had their means of

 7     achieving what they wanted.

 8        Q.   And what do you -- what was your understanding of what those

 9     means of achieving what they wanted?  What was it what they wanted, based

10     on your understanding at the time?

11        A.   At that time, I was still hoping that this was an interim

12     tactical move on their part.  I knew that in order to divide

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina along ethnic lines would be impossible, or, rather, it

14     would be possible but then it meant war.  I still believe that their

15     proposal was a tactical play in order to achieve some of their goals.  I

16     could not believe at the time that it was possible to divide

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina along ethnic lines and solely based on that criterion.

18     I was proven right, later on.

19             All locations contained mixed populations.  There were very few

20     areas with only one ethnic group represented.  It's like a leopard skin

21     pattern.  There were representatives from all sides, and such a concept

22     of theirs could simply not be implemented, unless there was a war.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the Court Officer to please call up

24     65 ter 747.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When waiting for that, Ms. Marcus, your last

Page 3109

 1     question confused me because there were two different questions which

 2     were put, more or less, as one.

 3             You asked, What was your understanding of what those means of

 4     achieving what they wanted, which is a clear question, seeking what the

 5     witness understood would be the means to enforce what they had on their

 6     mind.

 7             And then you continued by saying: What was it they wanted, based

 8     on your understanding at the time, which is what they wanted to achieve,

 9     apparently, and not the means.

10             Now, you phrased it in such a way that -- you pronounced it in

11     such a way that it looks as one question, but there are two different

12     questions.  And apparently the witness answered only the second question

13     and not the first one.  If are you interested to know the answer, and I

14     would be interested, perhaps you ask the witness again what the apparent

15     means of achieving meant, of how we understood that.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will do.

17        Q.   President Tihic, can you explain to us, based on that meeting,

18     what you understood to be the means that were going to be used?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If they would not do what they were requested to do.

20     Yes.

21        A.   Firstly, they proposed an agreement.  But once they received our

22     response to the effect that we did not wish to accept that, they imposed

23     a deadline, and they concluded with an implicit threat.  They said that

24     if we refused that, they had their own ways and means to bring it on.  It

25     was our conclusion that they were ready to use force.  Although still, at

Page 3110

 1     the time, I was not convinced that they were actually going to use it.  I

 2     knew what that would entail.  It meant a lot of suffering.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Would it be possible to call up 65 ter 747, please.

 4        Q.   President Tihic, is the subject matter of this document familiar

 5     to you?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7             This comes from the Serb Autonomous Region of Northern Bosnia,

 8     the proclamation of the Serb Autonomous Region.  Various SDS deputies met

 9     as well as representatives of certain other parties.  There were seven or

10     eight municipalities included in that area, like Modrica, Bosanski Samac,

11     Derventa, Bosanski Brod.  They declared the whole area to be the Serb

12     Autonomous Region, although, according to the census, in the area there

13     were one third Croats, one third Serbs, and one third of Muslims.  They

14     simply said that that was going to be a Serb Autonomous Region.  This was

15     a way of sending a message to the effect that in that territory there was

16     no room for others, non-Serbs.  This is completely illegal and outside

17     the constitution.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Could I now ask the Court Officer to call up

20     65 ter 748.

21        Q.   Is the subject matter of this document familiar to you, sir?

22        A.   Yes.  I am familiar with it.  This is a decision on the

23     establishment of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac and the

24     Serbian Municipality of Pelagicavo.  Again, this was following the ethnic

25     principle used to form a municipality with its seat in the town of

Page 3111

 1     Bosanski Samac, encompassing several municipalities.  It included the

 2     territory of Bosanski Samac as well as Orasje, Gradacac, and Odzak, those

 3     four municipalities.  The area was not ethnically pure.  By necessity,

 4     such a territory included settlements and villages of other ethnic groups

 5     who were not Serbs.  That is to say, Croats and Muslims, or Bosniaks, as

 6     they were referred to at the time.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Could I now ask the Court Officer to please call up

 9     65 ter 749.

10             For the information of the Court and for the record, the prior

11     two documents were on the list of associated exhibits, whereas this one

12     now is not.

13             Could I ask for page 3 in B/C/S, please, and page 4 in the

14     English.

15        Q.   President Tihic, is the subject matter of this document familiar

16     to you?

17        A.   Yes.  This is the decision to establish an assembly of the

18     Serbian people of the municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo.

19             I just commented on it.  Now we see it published in the

20     Official Gazette of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.  This is a bit

21     illogical, you know.  There is no such a thing as political unions of

22     nations but of citizens residing within a certain territory, irrespective

23     of their ethnic background.  This is also illegal, unconstitutional, and

24     there were only SDS representatives in attendance.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the Court Officer to turn in this

Page 3112

 1     document to page 10 in the B/C/S and page 21 in the English.

 2        Q.   President Tihic, may I draw your attention to the two sets of

 3     conclusions which we see.  What do these paragraphs signify to you?

 4             In English, just for note, the first conclusions are on page --

 5     the page that we see here, which I believe is 21.  And they continue onto

 6     the next page, to 22.

 7        A.   These were the conclusions which served as precursors to indicate

 8     that their project was to be implemented by force.  They were to form the

 9     Serb police institutions, the Serb staff, et cetera.  This was a written

10     confirmation or an impetus for the attack which came after two days, the

11     attack on Bosanski Samac.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Could I tendered this document into evidence,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

15             Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P178.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P178 is admitted into evidence.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   President Tihic, what did all this mean with respect to the

20     non-Serb population in Bosanski Samac?

21        A.   It meant that there was no room for the others in the territory

22     where they hailed from, where their ancestors were from.  That, in the

23     future, it was all supposed to be Serbian only.  This was not possible in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It had never been, it never will be, and, of course,

25     it isn't possible in any other civilised part of the world, that within a

Page 3113

 1     territory, there is an political association of only one nation and not

 2     of all citizens residing there.  The same happened not only in the area

 3     of Samac and Northern Bosnia; this was a political project which

 4     encompassed the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In that way,

 5     they tried to create their own political preconditions, preceding the use

 6     of force and ethnic cleansing of the population and the removal of all

 7     non-Serbs, which, in turn, was to be followed by a division in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to create a parastate which would later on be

 9     annexed to Serbia.

10             Of course, it had to have a backup by means of force, which was

11     necessary in order to implement the project.  This was a very clear

12     political project.  They would never have been able to do this had they

13     not had Belgrade support.  They had the support of the armed forces, of

14     the then-JNA, as well as the police of Serbia.  Of course, they also

15     enjoyed financial and logistical support.

16             MS. MARCUS:  I'd like to call up Prosecution Exhibit P60, which

17     is a map from the Court binder, map 28.  And perhaps I could give the

18     hard copy on the ELMO so that as the President indicates what he is

19     speaking, we could see what he is pointing to.

20             President Tihic, as they prepare the map, I'm going to ask you to

21     explain briefly to the Chamber the strategic importance of Bosanski Samac

22     at the time.

23        A.   I would kindly ask the interpreters to speak a bit louder from

24     now on.  Thank you.

25             Bosanski Samac was --

Page 3114

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, yes, Mr. Knoops.

 2             MR. KNOOPS:  Mr. Tihic is a witness of fact and not an expert.

 3     And we have -- we didn't notice any expertise on military strategical

 4     issues.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it about military strategy that the question was

 6     about or.

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, even if it is just strategic importance of

 8     Bosanski Samac, we would submit that is not something for a witness of

 9     fact.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the question is phrased in a way which does

11     not primarily elicit facts, but we could invite the witness that, if he

12     has ever formed an opinion about the strategic importance, and then on

13     what facts he based such an opinion so that we know what the relevant

14     facts for this witness were.  And then, of course, it is for the Chamber

15     to consider whether or not the opinion formed by the witness is something

16     that is relevant for the Chamber to consider.

17             Ms. Marcus, if would you have asked, Have you ever formed an

18     opinion about the strategical importance, and then the answer would have

19     been yes or no.  If the answer would have been yes, you could have asked

20     to -- for a fact, that is, what that opinion was, because that's a

21     factual question.  And then could you have asked --

22             Mr. Knoops, this also demonstrates that by rephrasing the

23     question, you can seek exactly the same information in a factual way

24     rather than in -- in opinion matters.

25             Let's try -- it's inevitable, now and then, especially in this

Page 3115

 1     kind of cases, that perhaps sometimes a bit of opinion slips in, but, at

 2     the same time, it should be clear, whatever a witness says and if it

 3     contains any elements of opinion, that we would know on what facts that

 4     it is based so that the Chamber is in a position to see whether it would

 5     draw similar conclusions.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosanski Samac is at the confluence

 8     of the Bosna and Sava rivers.  There's a railway going through

 9     Bosanski Samac as well as a highway.  On the other bank of the Sava river

10     is the Republic of Croatia that is linked to Bosanski Samac by a bridge

11     and --

12             MS. MARCUS:

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry I'd just like to

14     interrupt you, sir.  The map that you see on the table next to you, if

15     you point to it, we can see what are you pointing to on our screens.

16     That's why I requested -- I'm sorry I didn't explain that to you, sir.

17     The one on the table next to you.  Yes, sir.

18        A.   Well, Bosanski Samac is here, at the confluence of the Bosna and

19     the Sava river.  And you will see here the markings for railways and a

20     highway that goes through Bosanski Samac.  There is a bridge on the Sava

21     river, which links Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, the Republic of

22     Croatia.  Bosanski Samac has a port of its own on the river and that is

23     of significance as well.  From an industrial point of view, it was a

24     rather well developed, affluent municipality.  All the main roads from

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina go via Bosanski Samac towards Croatia and towards the

Page 3116

 1     rest of Europe.  And that is why I made that assessment, perhaps, about

 2     its importance, strategically economically, and perhaps in other ways as

 3     well.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 5     microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  We

 6     barely hear him anyway.  Thank you.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, sir.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At any rate, it is far more

 9     important than Odzak or Orasje or Modrica, you see, in the surrounding

10     area and the area around Bosanski Samac.  And that's why Samac was the

11     first to be attacked because it's more important, due to all these

12     elements, than these other towns.  I mean, the neighbouring

13     municipalities.  That's what I meant.

14        Q.   Thank you.  President Tihic, in your prior evidence you discussed

15     the formation and arming of the Fourth Detachment.  Could you tell the

16     Chamber when the Fourth Detachment was formed?

17        A.   The Fourth Detachment was formed sometime in the beginning of

18     1992.  I think that's the way it was.  It was established within the JNA,

19     within the 17th Tactical Unit, and we were informed about that by

20     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic.  We opposed that because we thought that the

21     JNA could not have that kind of a detachment, this kind of form, as it

22     were, that it was a matter pertaining to the Territorial Defence and that

23     the matter had to be dealt with within the TO staff, not through the JNA.

24        Q.   You mentioned a Colonel Nikolic.  Can you tell us who that was?

25     A Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic.

Page 3117

 1        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic was part of the military garrison, one

 2     of the top people in the military garrison in Brcko.  Again, he had

 3     certain units that were outside the barracks, and part of these units

 4     were in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.  His

 5     headquarters were in a village in the municipality of Bosanski Samac that

 6     was called Obudovac.

 7        Q.   Based upon your position in the community at the time, what was

 8     your view of the reasons for the formation of the Fourth Detachment?

 9        A.   In my view, that Fourth Detachment shouldn't have been

10     established.  But this is what we were told, what the reason was for

11     doing that.

12             Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic said then that the aim was to prevent

13     inter-ethnic conflict and to possibly defend the town of Samac from these

14     conflicts and possible incursions from the Republic of Croatia,

15     incursions by armed groups, individuals.  This detachment, in terms of

16     its ethnic structure, was predominantly Serb, but there were a number of

17     Bosniaks and Croats as well.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I'm aware of the time.  And I wonder,

19     because this is a pausing point in terms of subject matter, if you would

20     like to --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it would be an appropriate moment to -- because

22     we have sessions of 75 minutes.

23             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 4.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

Page 3118

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   President Tihic, at what point did you first notice the presence

 4     of these "special forces from Serbia" to whom you so often refer in your

 5     prior evidence?

 6        A.   I noticed that sometime in the beginning of 1992; perhaps the

 7     month of February or March in the town of Samac which is a relatively

 8     small town with a population of 5.000.  So as soon as there is an

 9     stranger in town, you're bound to notice him.

10             Since these people spoke Ijkavian, it meant that they had come

11     from Serbia.  Now, who they were, I found out only in relation to my

12     political party, because I worked as a lawyer, and then an ethnic Serb

13     told me that Batkusa and Obudovac, his village, was where the members of

14     the Red Berets were brought to.

15             As soon as they arrived there, they started setting up an order

16     of their own, inter alia, they beat up the Serb guards, or, rather, the

17     policemen who stood guard there facing the Croatian villages of

18     Ostra Luka and Orasje.  Now why did they beat them up?  Because they sat

19     in a tavern together and did some drinking together; that was the reason.

20     Also they wanted young men to have haircuts, they assaulted women.  So

21     they were setting up some order of their own there.

22             Others heard about that as well, that these people had arrived.

23             MS. MARCUS:  As I'm finished using the ELMO, would it, please, be

24     possible to lower the top of the ELMO?  It sort of blocks the view to the

25     witness.  Thank you.

Page 3119

 1        Q.   Sir, in your prior evidence, you describe the attack on

 2     Bosanski Samac.  Can you the Chamber, to your knowledge, who attacked

 3     Bosanski Samac?

 4        A.   To the best of my knowledge, Bosanski Samac was attacked by these

 5     specialists from Serbia who had arrived.  I think that they were the

 6     fist, as it were, of this attack, together with the police of the

 7     municipality of Samac, then also the Serb staff of the

 8     Territorial Defence of Samac, and also the JNA was there.  Perhaps they

 9     joined the attack against Bosanski Samac somewhat later.

10        Q.   Did you ever get a clear sense of who was in command during the

11     attack?

12        A.   I don't know exactly who was in command.  Probably there was some

13     kind of coordination.  However, I do know who the person in charge was

14     there, at the time.  It was these specialists.  They were the masters of

15     life and death, as it were, in Bosanski Samac.  I also know that they

16     were the first to enter Bosanski Samac and they took the police station

17     and the municipality building.  One could see that these were people who

18     knew how to wage war, who knew how handle weapons, as opposed to the

19     locals, who carried weapons as if they were wooden beams, or sticks.  You

20     could see that these other people were professionals, warriors, who knew

21     their business.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

23     microphones please be switched off while the witness is speaking.

24     Thank you.

25             MS. MARCUS:

Page 3120

 1        Q.   Sir when you refer to specialists, it might be a point of

 2     translation, but could you clarify, just for -- for the sake of the

 3     record, what do you mean when you say specialists?

 4        A.   Special units.  Special units that took part in the attack

 5     against Bosanski Samac, or who led the attack against Bosanski Samac and

 6     who were the masters later.  I know full well that nothing could have

 7     been decided without them afterwards.  We, who were detained, were so

 8     afraid of them.  Also, the local Serbs were afraid too, because you could

 9     see straight away that these were persons who were prone to crime and

10     that killing someone meant nothing to them.  Perhaps the local Serbs

11     disagreed with that.  They would -- those who would show some tolerance

12     towards us detainees had problems then with the specialists from Serbia.

13             Also, they did not trust Serbs who had mixed marriages with

14     members of other ethnicities from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15             When they took me prisoner, when they brought me to the police

16     station, when they brought me into the duty service, Djordjevic, Crni,

17     the captain who was there, everybody was standing around him, and he was

18     issuing orders to them.  And then a man from the Fourth Detachment walked

19     up to him, Simo Zaric, and he simply dismissed him.  He couldn't even

20     address this man because he was so important.  Zaric wanted to say

21     something to him, but no way.

22        Q.   Now, sir, your prior evidence describes your experiences while in

23     detention in several locations in both Bosnia and in Serbia.  Due to the

24     admission of all that prior evidence, we will not need to delve into your

25     ordeal in great detail.  However, I will ask you a few certainly aspects

Page 3121

 1     in relation to your time in detention.

 2             When were you first detained?

 3        A.   I was detained on the 18th of April, 1992.

 4        Q.   Who was it who detained you?

 5        A.   Well, at that moment, when I was arrested, I was in the apartment

 6     of a colleague of mine, a lawyer, Borislav Pisarevic.  One of these

 7     specialists came to get me, one of the members of the special units from

 8     Serbia, and another local policeman was there.  So they took me to the

 9     police station there, and they immediately handed me over to this

10     Djordjevic, Crni, the captain, who asked me to speak on Radio Samac and

11     to make a certain statement, which I had to do, of course.

12             I was taken to the radio station by one of the specialists of

13     his.  One of them asked me questions, and he give me a statement that he

14     had written up, to read, and I read it, indeed.  After that, they

15     returned me to the police station, and I was put in a room there and was

16     interrogated by two men who introduced themselves as being Arkan's

17     Tigers.  They beat me.  I can tell you of the details, but I don't know

18     how necessary that is.  I know that they called someone in Valjevo, a

19     girl; I remember that very well.  And while he was beating me, he called

20     her so that she could hear how they were doing their jobs and things like

21     that.

22        Q.   Sir, two brief follow-up questions to your answer, just to be

23     clear.

24             You mentioned someone named Crni, Djordjevic.  Do you know his

25     full name?

Page 3122

 1        A.   Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, Captain Crni, Kapetan Crni.  That's what

 2     he was called.  He was the man who was issuing orders, and there were

 3     some others there as well who I got to know through these beatings.

 4     Zvezdan Jovanovic, for one, who later murdered Djindjic.  And then

 5     Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar, and some Musa, Bokan.  Laki, Beli, and so on.

 6     We knew their nicknames, mostly.

 7        Q.   Sir -- you said --

 8        A.   You know what?  None of the local Serbs hit me.  These were the

 9     people who hit me, you see?  And they tried to affect these friendships

10     of ours that existed traditionally in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And this

11     tolerance, they tried to destroy it.  Whoever tried to show some mercy

12     towards the detainees had problems with them.  I know, for example, if

13     they'd go somewhere, to Gradacac, to the front line, or something, then

14     the commander of the police station, Sabotan Carovic [phoen], would take

15     me out.  He'd bring a doctor to see me.  He'd give me food, water,

16     whatever, everything that we did not have.

17        Q.   Sir, when you described the moment of your arrest, you said that

18     one member of a special -- of the special units was there.  How did you

19     know that this person was from the special units?

20        A.   Well, you see, they had different uniforms in relation to the

21     others.  I mean, the locals, regardless of whether it was the Serb

22     Territorial Defence or the Serb police or the JNA.  The Serb

23     Territorial Defence had olive-green grey uniforms, the uniforms of the

24     Former Yugoslav People's Army; whereas these people had camouflage

25     uniforms, that is to say, different uniforms.  They had different

Page 3123

 1     insignia, and they spoke Ijkavian, you see.  So that's how we could tell

 2     that they were not from Bosnia.

 3        Q.   President Tihic, can you briefly tell us each location where you

 4     were detained, how long you were detained there.

 5        A.   Well, you see, first I was brought into the police station by

 6     those people who introduced themselves as Arkan's Tigers.  After that I

 7     was transferred to the Territorial Defence staff premises, which is

 8     opposite -- on the other side of the street.  I found some 50 people

 9     there, roughly, who had been already detained.  After two days, I was

10     returned to the police station for integrations.  And I was in a room

11     that was perhaps 1 metre 80 centimetres by 1 metre 20 centimetres.  There

12     were dozens of us there and we were there -- we just had this one bench;

13     we slept there.  Everything happened there.  We were tortured physically

14     all the time.  You couldn't even go to the toilet, let alone exercise

15     some other rights.

16             After that, we were transferred -- I mean, I can move on faster

17     or slower, whatever you prefer.

18             Afterwards, we were transferred to the JNA barracks in Brcko;

19     that is where we were treated decently, if I can put it that way, under

20     the circumstances.  We weren't beaten there.  After that, we were taken

21     to the barracks in Bijeljina, Fadil Jahic Spanac.  We were there for two

22     or three days.  And then, after that, a few of us were singled out of

23     this Samac group that involved about 50 or 60 men, and then we were

24     transferred by helicopter to Batajnica.

25             I remember very well that in this helicopter there was one of

Page 3124

 1     these specialists and there was a coffin and a man from the military

 2     security, I think.  We were in Batajnica from the 3rd until the

 3     27th of May.  From Batajnica, we were transferred to Sremska Mitrovica

 4     when we were exchanged on 14th of August, when this large-scale exchange

 5     was effected.  Panic from Serbia and Greguric from Croatia had agreed on

 6     that.  It was on the 14th of August that this took place in

 7     Remetin [phoen].

 8        Q.   Sir, could you just tell us where is Batajnica?

 9        A.   Batajnica is a military airfield near Belgrade.

10        Q.   And Sremska Mitrovica?

11        A.   Sremska Mitrovica is also in Serbia.  More precisely, the

12     Autonomous Province of Vojvodina.  It's about 50 or 70 kilometres away

13     from Belgrade.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the Court Officer, please, to call up

16     65 ter 2466.

17        Q.   President Tihic, can you tell us what we see in this photo?

18        A.   This picture was taken from the courtyard of the

19     Territorial Defence Staff.  Across the street, you see the police

20     building.  There were detainees in both the police building as well as

21     the TO Staff.  So these two buildings are vis-à-vis each other along the

22     same street.

23        Q.   To your knowledge, who was in charge of the detention centre in

24     Bosanski Samac in the police station and the TO building?

25        A.   I don't know who was in charge formally.  We were guarded by the

Page 3125

 1     regular policemen of the security station of the Serb municipality.

 2             As for those who made decisions on detention and the release of

 3     detainees, I think those were the so-called special forces.  I know that

 4     after two or three days, when they initially wanted to release me, Crni

 5     said, Tica, you mustn't release anyone without my approval.  So I guess

 6     he had the last say, the final say.

 7        Q.   When you said "Tica," what did you mean?

 8        A.   He said, Tihic, you musn't release anyone without my approval.

 9     You mustn't release Tihic in particular.  It was clear to everyone that

10     there was nothing to be done without him, although the locals among them

11     thought that I should be released.  For as long as I was in

12     Bosanski Samac, every day and every night, they were beating up

13     prisoners.  I was beaten on a daily basis.  The local Serbs did not beat

14     us at the time.  Later on, they began doing so.  But in the initial

15     period, they were not doing that.  The others were beating us and

16     stealing stuff from us.  I was made to go to my house to bring money, and

17     my brother had to bring in money for Djordjevic for Crni.  He brought in

18     15.000 German marks and then the money was handed over through a Serb.

19     Allegedly this was supposed to assist in my release, but obviously it

20     didn't.

21        Q.   Now you mentioned earlier that you were detained among 50 to 60

22     others.  Can you tell us what the ethnic composition was of the group of

23     those detained?

24        A.   Their ethnic background was Muslim and perhaps 20 per cent of

25     them were Croats.  That was the only criterion used to detain people, and

Page 3126

 1     that's something that I cannot understand and I cannot justify that.

 2             I was brought in as the SDA president, and that was a good enough

 3     reason.  But most other people were brought in just because of their

 4     ethnic background.  Some of them were even members of the

 5     Fourth Detachment, and, still, they were brought in.

 6        Q.   What was the relationship, or the connection, let's say, between

 7     those who were in charge of your detention and those who were involved in

 8     other aspects of the attack on Bosanski Samac?

 9        A.   Well, you see, I know that the local Serbs, irrespective of

10     whether they belonged to the Serb police or the TO Staff or the

11     Fourth Detachment, they did not hold these special forces from Serbia in

12     high esteem.  They wanted them to withdraw.  They posed a threat to them.

13             I was in an office after Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar, a member of

14     the special forces, killed someone from -- with a handgun; and

15     Simo Zaric, one of the commanders of the Fourth Detachment, called

16     Colonel Nikolic to come and save the prisoners because he feared they

17     would all be killed.  But no one could order them about.  They didn't

18     care about Nikolic or anyone else.  They had their own authority, and it

19     was the only that could issue any orders to them.  I do think that there

20     was some coordination, though, during the course of the attack on

21     Bosanski Samac.  There were things in common between these two groups.

22        Q.   For clarification, sir, between what two groups?

23        A.   The two groups.  The special forces, on the one hand; and the

24     locals, on the other.  So one group are the special forces; and the

25     second are the local Serbs and various armed entities such as the police,

Page 3127

 1     the TO Staff, or the Fourth Detachment.  The Fourth Detachment tried to

 2     pass off as a part of the JNA, saying that they were there to prevent any

 3     inter-ethnic conflicts, but, in the end, they only served as part of the

 4     project to the benefit of only one people.  And somewhere in between,

 5     there may have been the JNA.  I don't really know how to describe their

 6     position.

 7             In any case, without them, none of it would have been possible.

 8     They provided logistics and other kinds of support.  Their vehicles,

 9     their combat vehicles, entered Samac when it was occupied.

10        Q.   Can you describe how your transfer out of the camps in

11     Bosanski Samac to Brcko was organised?

12        A.   After the murder of a Croat by Slobodan Miljkovic aka Lugar and

13     following Simo Zaric's request, Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic sent a unit or

14     a group of his with vehicles so that we would be transferred to Brcko.

15     Before that, however, there was much fuss about who was to be put on the

16     list to go to Brcko and who was to stay.  We felt that whoever stayed

17     behind would be killed and those who were to go to Brcko and taken care

18     of by the army would survive.  I know that at a point in time when the

19     list was completed, Simo Zaric came to see me, he hugged me, kissed me on

20     the cheek, and he said, I managed to put you on that list; you're going

21     with the JNA.

22             Most of us boarded the Pinzgauers and were taken to Brcko.  When

23     we arrived at the Brcko barracks, the soldiers or the military police had

24     prepared for us.  They were ready to beat us.  But once they realised

25     what state we were in and once they saw the wounds and bruises of those

Page 3128

 1     daily beatings, they gave up.  In Brcko, they didn't hit us.  There were

 2     certain threats; there was a member of the Red Berets who came and said

 3     something to the effect that he would slaughter us, but he was driven out

 4     by the military police there.

 5        Q.   Were Crni and the other special forces from Serbia, were they

 6     present when you were transferred from Bosanski Samac to Brcko?

 7        A.   I don't think they were there.  I know that they were in a hurry

 8     to have us go to Brcko before they returned.  The special forces went

 9     somewhere at that point in time.  They would go and leave Samac for a few

10     hours.  I don't know, though, where they went, whether they went to the

11     front lines or to loot, but that's how it was.  And in such -- during

12     such an interval, we were taken out.  Had they come back at that time, it

13     would have been questionable whether our transfer would be successful.

14        Q.   Now, after Brcko, you were held in Bijeljina.  Who was the

15     commander of the detention centre in Bijeljina?

16        A.   I don't know.  It was JNA-controlled.  There were some officers

17     there.  It was also a Muslim whom I remember.

18        Q.   Did you see any special units from Serbia during your detention

19     in Bijeljina?

20        A.   No, I did not.  A guard threatened us though.  He said, Arkan

21     will return and you'll get what's due to you.  But no one did.

22        Q.   During your transfer from Bijeljina to Batajnica, did you see any

23     special forces?

24        A.   As I said a moment ago, when we got into the helicopter, there

25     was a coffin containing the body of a killed Serbian soldier.  We were

Page 3129

 1     seated around that coffin and handcuffed.  There was a member of the

 2     special forces there.  He a black woolen cap, balaclava-type that can be

 3     pulled over your face.  That's how we recognised him.

 4             There was also a civilian in that helicopter.  The special forces

 5     guy wanted to throw us out of the helicopter, but the civilian prevented

 6     him.  Later on when we arrived Batajnica, a few days later, I met the

 7     civilian who turned out to be a major from the security institutions.  He

 8     was the one who conducted an interview with me.

 9        Q.   Did you see any special forces during your detention in

10     Batajnica?

11        A.   I did not.  There were soldiers there, and some reserve forces.

12     Regular soldiers and reservists.

13        Q.   What about during your detention in Sremska Mitrovica?

14        A.   In Sremska Mitrovica, I didn't see them, save for one occasion

15     when we were taken outside for a walk in the yard.  There were some

16     people shouting at us from one of the top floors.  They said they were

17     Arkan's Men, threatened to slash our throats.  But the guards told us

18     that those Arkan's Men had committed crimes in Bijeljina and were

19     temporarily imprisoned there.  They were there for two or three days

20     because the next time we were taken out for a walk, they were no longer

21     there.  They were up on one of the windows threatening us.

22        Q.   As --

23        A.   We didn't have any direct dealings with them though.

24        Q.   President Tihic, during your attention between 18th of April and

25     the 4th of August of 1992, in which of the detention centres would you

Page 3130

 1     say you suffered the worst mistreatment?

 2        A.   Bosanski Samac was the worst.  Imagine if someone locked you up

 3     in a room two by two metres, nine of us, and only one bench and

 4     constantly you are being beaten up, hit, threatened to be killed.  I

 5     explained all that in detail.  I explained how we were taken out at night

 6     and firing squads.

 7             Bosanski Samac was the worst by far.  At any moment they could

 8     come in to kill you, and we were constantly physically abused.  Although,

 9     I was beaten up the most in Sremska Mitrovica.  But there was some kind

10     of system or order there.  We were beaten up, and it usually happened

11     after breakfast and dinner.  But, still, people could not just come in

12     with a -- a pistol and kill you or take you out the way they did in

13     Samac.  Samac was the worst.

14        Q.   President Tihic, how many times during those months in detention

15     did you give media interviews?

16        A.   I think five times.  The first time for Radio Samac; the second

17     for the television station in Novi Sad, when we were transferred from

18     Brcko to Samac only for that statement.  The third time in Batajnica.

19     This Lazanski, Miroslav Lazanski guy, the journalist, was there to

20     take -- to have that interview.  The fourth time it was Sky News in

21     Sremska Mitrovica.  I was interviewed alongside another person of the

22     Croatian army in Vukovar.  And the fifth time, a Borba newspaper

23     journalist who spoke with me and some other people one day before we were

24     exchanged.

25        Q.   Were these interviews voluntary or involuntary?

Page 3131

 1        A.   They were not voluntary.  You had to say what they wanted you to.

 2     In Bosanski Samac, for example, I had to say that no one beat us and that

 3     there were no problems whatsoever.  They always told us what to say.  In

 4     Sremska Mitrovica, they also told us that we were supposed to say that we

 5     had sufficient food, exercise, showers, everything else required by the

 6     Red Cross.  These were messages that were supposed to be sent to Sarajevo

 7     or someone else.  In that atmosphere -- well, when I provided that

 8     statement in Samac, that captain said, After the interview, bring in

 9     Tihic; I want to interrogate him.  It was all clear to us what we were

10     supposed to say.  And then one of the commanders of the

11     Fourth Detachment, Simo Zaric, participated in that interview.  The

12     journalist who was there was just as an ornament.  He put only one

13     question and even that one question was something that he was told to ask

14     us by the police station commander.  And he did so, despite the bruises

15     he could obviously see.

16        Q.   Okay.  So let us take it, briefly, one by one.

17             The first one you said was a radio interview.  Can you recall the

18     date of that?

19        A.   On the 18th, when I was arrested.  And when -- when I went to see

20     captain Crni, that is to say, Djordjevic, he wanted me to go to

21     Radio Samac and to say publicly that weapons should be handed over and

22     that the Serb authority would guarantee everyone's safety.  I was handed

23     over a printed statement that I was supposed to read out, and a member of

24     the special forces was there all along.

25        Q.   Now, in relation to the second interview, who obliged you to do

Page 3132

 1     that?

 2        A.   It was in the Brcko barracks.  No one asked you anything.  They

 3     just told me that I was to go to Samac, that there was a captain there,

 4     and I was told that I should give a statement to -- for the TV.  When I

 5     arrived there, I came across some other people who were detained with me.

 6     Some of them came from Brcko.  In the room where we gave the statement,

 7     the chief of police, Stevo Todorovic was present as well as Simo Zaric

 8     who was one of the commanders of the Fourth Detachment who actually

 9     interrogated me and conducted that interview.

10             That would be it, more or less.

11             Before the interview, I was taken home to shower and put on fresh

12     clothes to appear decent.  Those who took me said that I should be fair

13     in my statement about the questions I was going to be asked, that I

14     shouldn't accuse anyone, and that there was a possibility of our release

15     on the 1st of May.  This was late April.  And they said, Well, if you

16     watch your mouth, you may be released soon.  Don't say something that

17     people wouldn't like to hear.

18        Q.   I'd like to show a short clip of the interview to which the

19     witness is referring.  It's 65 ter 125.  And I'm going to ask our

20     Case Manager, Mr. Laugel, to play the short excerpt.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Journalist:  Mr. Tihic, please tell

23     me, frankly, what is your impression of the present authorities on the

24     territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; in other words,

25     how are the Serbian police treating the Muslim people, yourself and all

Page 3133

 1     other citizens?  But please be completely frank.

 2             "Tihic:  Well, as for the attitude of the Serbian police, members

 3     of the Serbian police themselves, I personally had no problems.  I can

 4     say that they treated me fairly."

 5             MS. MARCUS:

 6        Q.   President Tihic, can you describe yourself here in terms of your

 7     condition, as you recall?

 8        A.   Well, you see, if you would take a closer look, you can see a

 9     bruise on the right-hand side of my face.  By that time, it had gone

10     yellow because it were -- there were a few days since the last beating in

11     Brcko.  I was exhausted.  And the statement I gave, I didn't lie as part

12     of that.  I said that I was not beaten up by any members of the Serb

13     police from Bosanski Samac.  But I was beaten up by others.  Of course, I

14     could not say that, that I had been beaten up by the special forces.

15        Q.   Can you describe, briefly, the circumstances of your transfer

16     back from -- after this interview, back to the detention centre in Brcko?

17        A.   After the interview, we were rushed back to Brcko because the

18     local Serbs and Vlado Sarkanovic who was there, as well as Simo Zaric and

19     Simo Krunic and so on, all of them wanted us onboard those vehicles asap

20     to be taken to Brcko.  Because, during the interview, the special forces

21     left again, and the locals were afraid that they would return in the mean

22     time and beat us again or commit a crime.  So the soldiers who had

23     brought us there took us back to Brcko.

24             MS. MARCUS:  For the sake of the record, I would like to indicate

25     that 65 ter 758 is the witness's interview in Sremska Mitrovica and

Page 3134

 1     65 ter 1022 is his Borba interview.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'd like to go back to the special forces that you are

 3     describing throughout your evidence.  Can explain again how you knew that

 4     these special forces were from Serbia?

 5        A.   I knew because before the arrest I had information of their

 6     arrival from my party.  I was told that the Red Berets had arrived by

 7     helicopter.

 8             How did I recognise them?  By their speech.  They used the

 9     Ijkavian dialect and wore different clothes.  They had camouflage

10     military uniforms, whereas the others had olive grey uniforms or police

11     uniforms.  They also had different insignias on their sleeves, different

12     patches.  Anyone could recognise them as different.  If you took ten

13     armed people with arms at that time, a local person would immediately

14     recognise a special forces member by their dress and appearances as well

15     as behaviour.  And one could especially be able to recognise them if you

16     enjoyed the treatment, the way they arrested people, beat them up, and

17     torture them.

18        Q.   Sir, you've referred several time to the Ijkavian dialects.  Can

19     you explain what that is?

20        A.   I apologise.  I didn't hear the question.

21        Q.   Yes, several -- several times you said "Ijkavski," Ijkavian

22     dialect.  Can you explain to the Court what that means?

23        A.   In the former Yugoslavia, we used a similar language.  It used to

24     be called Serbo-Croatian.  The Serb language had certain differences to

25     what we used in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They did not have the IJ syllable;

Page 3135

 1     we would say "Mlijeko" for milk, whereas they said "Mleko."  Or Vrijeme

 2     and Vreme.  They also had a different accent.  We could understand them,

 3     but we could tell them apart immediately.  The same goes from anyone

 4     coming from Zagreb.  You could recognise that person immediately as

 5     someone who is not from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I don't know if I have

 6     managed to explain sufficiently.

 7        Q.   So just to be clear, sir, the Ijkavski dialect, the Ijkavian

 8     dialect that you're describing is from which region?

 9        A.   Ekavica is Serbia, Ijekavica is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

10     distinction is clearly felt.  There's no mistake about that.

11        Q.   Sir, at what point did you first notice the degree of influence

12     that these special forces from Serbia had over the local Serb authority

13     structures?

14        A.   I felt that immediately, as soon as I was brought to the police

15     station, as soon as I was taken into duty service.  There were a lot of

16     there, Captain Djordjevic, Dragan, Crni were sitting there and all the

17     rest were around him.  He was issuing orders, that is to say that he was

18     issuing orders to his own men and to the others in uniform, to the

19     policemen, to Simo Zaric who was from the Fourth Detachment, that is to

20     say, all of those who were around him who wanted to ask him something.

21     But he was the man in charge who was issuing orders, and he is the one

22     who ordered me to go to the radio.  They brought me to him, not to anyone

23     else.  They didn't take me to the chief of police or someone from the

24     army or someone from the Fourth Detachment.  I was brought to him.

25        Q.   Sir, in your -- in your evidence, both your prior evidence and

Page 3136

 1     today in court, you've mentioned several different terms such as you've

 2     mentioned the Red Berets.  You've mentioned Arkan's Tigers.  You've

 3     mentioned special forces from Serbia.  Can you explain, to your

 4     knowledge, based on your experiences, if there was any relationship

 5     between these groups?

 6        A.   Well, you see, I don't know -- well, usually when we'd speak to

 7     them, we would have to lower our heads.  We were not supposed to look

 8     them in the eye.  I see that they introduced themselves by way of showing

 9     their insignia.  When Arkan's Tigers interrogated me, they showed their

10     own insignia.  Then there was this other man at the staff who showed us

11     different insignia.  The four Ss that mean it is only concord that saves

12     Serbs.  But it's four Cyrillic Serb Ss facing each other.

13             Regardless of whether it is Arkan's Tigers or someone else or

14     whoever else was there, Djordjevic, Crni was the commander of all.  He is

15     the one who issued orders.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the Court Officer to call up 65 ter 647,

17     which is one of the associated exhibits.

18        Q.   President Tihic, can you tell us if you recognise this insignia?

19        A.   Yes, I do recognise this insignia.  It's Arkan's Tigers.  I saw

20     them at least twice.  The first time when I was brought to the police

21     station, on the 18th of April; and the second time -- I mean, because the

22     man himself showed it to me and he said that they were Arkan's Tigers.

23     The second time was when I was at the TO Staff when, again -- well, there

24     were several of us there, 50 or 60, and this man came and showed us his

25     insignia and asked us to sing Glorifying Arkan's Heroism and Greatness.

Page 3137

 1     There were different songs glorifying the Serb people, then there were

 2     Chetnik songs.  I don't know how familiar the Trial Chamber is with this,

 3     but the Chetniks are those who fought on the side of Hitler in the Second

 4     World War, on the side of the fascist forces.  For the most part, that's

 5     the type of songs that was sung.  Sowing hatred towards other

 6     ethnicities, calling for slaughter, glorifying the Serb people.  They

 7     asked us the same way to glorify Arkan, and these insignia were shown.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer keep this on the screen but

 9     next to it pull up 65 ter 3680, if possible.  3680 is -- yes, sir.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, your previous reference to a 65 ter 647

11     should have been P31, because that was one of the documents which is

12     already in evidence, and in order to avoid others to have to search for

13     it.

14             So the previously -- Arkan's Tigers was P31, the badge -- patch I

15     should say.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:  I apologise.

19        Q.   President Tihic, can you tell us whether you recognise this patch

20     which is on the right side in front of you?

21        A.   That's what I was talking about a few moments ago, when one of

22     the specialists came.  You see these four Ss, Cyrillic Ss, in the corner

23     over there; and then on the right-hand side, where you see

24     Arkan's Tigers, and you see how the Ss are placed there, the other way

25     around.  He explained to us that there was no concord among the Serbs

Page 3138

 1     because these four Ss had their backs turned to one another.  However,

 2     they turned it the other way around so there was more harmony and

 3     concord, there was more unity, and that is how they would prevail because

 4     they are facing each other.

 5             I remember the insignia because of this story that he told us and

 6     that he showed this to us.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Now, could the Court Officer replace these, please,

 9     with Prosecution Exhibit 141.

10        Q.   President Tihic, did you see this patch at any time during your

11     experiences in Bosanski Samac?

12        A.   I probably did see it.  But these two cases that I explained a

13     few moments ago, well, I remember that better.  I remember them better

14     because of what these people who were interrogating me said and showed.

15             There were other insignia too.  Yet other ones as well.  I cannot

16     remember when it was that I saw this specifically.  I cannot remember a

17     specific occasion.  But I can remember those previous two because I link

18     them to the interrogation and the explanation that was provided by this

19     member of the special unity.  Grey Wolves.  This is the Grey Wolves.

20             You know, when you're that afraid, you don't dare look very much

21     at all.  And also -- well, there were lots of these uniforms.  I cannot

22     remember when it was that I saw this exactly.

23        Q.   Sir, you have explained numerous times that a man named

24     Crni, Dragan Djordjevic, was in charge.  Do you have any knowledge of

25     whom he reported to?

Page 3139

 1        A.   Well, of course, I wish to tell the truth and it is my duty to

 2     speak nothing but the truth, but I cannot be very specific as to who it

 3     was that I actually heard this from.  Was in Djordjevic who said it when

 4     I was brought there or was it someone else who said that it was a member

 5     of the federal MUP who had been pensioned off earlier on and was then

 6     reactivated?  Now who he reported to, I can assume that he reported to

 7     someone in Belgrade.  Certainly not to the locals.  None of the locals.

 8     He also did not report to the army, the locals, the Nikolic or Zaric or

 9     Todorovic who was the commander of the Serb police in Samac, or the

10     Serbian staff or anyone in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He -- he reported to

11     someone in Belgrade.  He was answerable to someone in Belgrade, but who,

12     I cannot say.

13             He behaved in such a way that all of this was nothing, as far as

14     he was concerned.  All of these were locals, and he had all this power.

15     And that power emanated from somewhere outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, as I

16     could conclude or infer or assume.  The Ministry of the Interior of

17     Serbia or something like that, state security.  I don't know.  I cannot

18     say.  I know who it could possibly -- who it could have been possibly in

19     the structure of our society.  The army; it wasn't the army, on the basis

20     of everything that I experienced and heard.  It could only be somewhere

21     up in Belgrade.  Well, some police structure within the

22     Ministry of the Interior.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Could I request private session, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

25             [Private session]  [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

Page 3140

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the the Court Officer to please call up

 4     65 ter 4866, the first pages in both English and in B/C/S, please.

 5             Let me ask for the second page in B/C/S, please.

 6        Q.   President Tihic, do you recognise any name that we see on the

 7     page in front of us?

 8        A.   Probably this Dragan Djordjevic, the one who was in Samac.

 9        Q.   The date of birth next to Dragan Djordjevic on this page is

10     listed as 14 November 1962.  Would that correspond to your knowledge of

11     his age, approximately, at the time?

12        A.   Well, approximately, that could be it.  He was certainly younger

13     than me.  I was born in 1951, and this says 1962, and he must have been

14     ten years younger than me.

15        Q.   And is this the Dragan Djordjevic whom you've been referring to

16     with the nickname Crni throughout your evidence?

17        A.   Possibly --

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the basis of this

21     document that we see here, I really do not understand how the

22     distinguished witness can make any kind of conclusion.  There is a --

23     this is a document that mentions a particular person with a certain name

24     and surname.  As far as I understand things, the witness never saw this

25     document expect perhaps during the proofing before his testimony.  I

Page 3141

 1     really wonder how, on the basis of a name and surname that is very common

 2     in Serbia, this witness can conclude who this actually is.

 3             With all due respect to the distinguished witness, I really think

 4     that he cannot do more than speculate as far as this document is

 5     concerned.  Perhaps we will discuss other aspects of this document later,

 6     when we discuss it once it is perhaps being tendered into evidence.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, what's your objection against the

 9     question?

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my objection is

11     twofold.

12             First of all, the witness is being asked to speculate and it is

13     this line of questioning that leads to speculation, guess-work, that is

14     the first objection.  And also, indirectly through these question what is

15     sought is admission into evidence on the basis of this speculation.

16             So there are two troublesome aspects to it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

19             Whether the witness is speculating or not and whether that should

20     affect our decision on admission is still to be seen.

21             At the same time, Ms. Marcus, if you could further explore how

22     common the name is and what other -- apart from approximately the same

23     age -- there may be other matters in this document which would -- which

24     would give a -- a solid factual basis for any conclusions you asked the

25     witness to draw from this document.  Because, although it is a mixed

Page 3142

 1     matter, fact, and whether it's the same person, we should know exactly

 2     what the factual basis for it is, and where it is just making that last

 3     step and saying it's the same person.

 4             Could you please further explore that.  By the way, Mr. Petrovic,

 5     it is it matter which you could have thoroughly explored in

 6     cross-examination as well.  And to say that the witness is asked to

 7     speculate is certainly too strong.

 8             Ms. Marcus, please proceed, and please consider my guidance.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will do.

10             For the information of the Court, this document is part of the

11     Prosecution's first bar table motion.  It's number 329 in the bar table

12     motion which was filed on 23rd of November, 2009.  It was received

13     pursuant to RFA 1382 from the MUP archives in Serbia.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MS. MARCUS:

16        Q.   Yes, now, President Tihic, can you tell us whether you were aware

17     of any other person by the name of Dragan Djordjevic in Bosanski Samac at

18     the time?

19        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember now.  I've already said that in

20     terms of age and name and surname, it could be that person.  I know that

21     he had finished high school.  I know that when he was appointed brigade

22     commander, that people from the staff of the Army of Republika Srpska

23     complained as to how someone who only had a secondary education could be

24     appointed commander.  He also got married in Samac.  You can check the

25     records there.  He married a local girl, so you can check whether that's

Page 3143

 1     the same person.  It's a part of the official books there of the register

 2     of marriages.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, the Prosecution would seek to tender

 4     this document, not necessarily based on the witness's testimony only, but

 5     based because it was received pursuant to RFA 1328 from the MUP archives

 6     from -- from Serbia.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections in relation to this document?

 8             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, Your Honour, we would object to the admission

 9     of this document on two reasons, basically two reasons.  First,

10     authenticity; second, the speculation the witness has shown to the Court

11     as to the nature of the person mentioned in the document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Where is this speculation, Mr. Knoops?

13             MR. KNOOPS:  Well, I think after Your Honours instructed

14     Prosecution to be more clear in -- in delivering a factual foundation,

15     the witness, I quote, said "It could be that person."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and what did he say before that?

17             MR. KNOOPS:  He did say that probably this is it

18     Dragan Djordjevic, a second type of speculation.  And he also speculated

19     as to the potential age of this person.  He was not able to identify any

20     whereabouts of this person --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, again, what was his speculation about the age

22     of this person?

23             MR. KNOOPS:  I believe it's in line 12.

24             It's, Your Honours, on line 14 running to 16 on page 53.

25             "Well, approximately, that could be it.  He was certainly younger

Page 3144

 1     than me.  I was born in 1951, and this says 1962, and he must have been

 2     ten years younger than me."

 3             So, speculative, I would say --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether that is speculation or -- I know that

 5     it's -- I wouldn't -- I wouldn't, every observation as to a difference of

 6     age, call that speculation.  If you would say that -- and I think the

 7     witness only said that he should have been younger and that looking at

 8     the difference of age that he considered this in line with what he

 9     observed.  So whether that's speculation or not is still to be seen.

10             But let's -- you say -- well, first of all, let's see, this

11     document was bar tabled as well.

12             I don't know whether you have responded already to the bar table

13     submission in relation to this document.

14             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, Your Honour, we did.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And on the basis of ...

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             MR. KNOOPS:  We didn't deal with this specifically yet,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And what now is the authenticity issue, because that

20     is apparently for -- is -- is whether it is through this witness or on

21     the basis of the bar table submission, that would be important to know --

22             MR. KNOOPS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  right, right.

23     Your Honour, if I may conclude the first submission as to the

24     speculation.  The witness also clearly was not able to recollect whether

25     there were other names with the name Dragan Djordjevic.  He said, I

Page 3145

 1     simply do not know.

 2             So we cannot exclude that he was familiar with another person

 3     with the name.  He is not absolutely clear as to this question.

 4             Furthermore, he wasn't able to give any details as to the person

 5     he just mentioned.  I remember that he underwent high school.

 6             So, all in all, we believe there is no basis for admission of

 7     this document, simply because it's far from sure whether we are dealing

 8     with the same individual.  Your Honours --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say that the document can be admitted only

10     if, through this witness, we could firmly establish that the person is

11     the same?

12             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes, of course.  Because the Prosecution is assuming

13     that this witness is speaking about this person.  And the whole intention

14     of tendering this document is the presumption that the -- there is no

15     doubt as to the identity of this Mr. Dragan Djordjevic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that a matter of weight, or is that a matter of

17     admissibility?

18             MR. KNOOPS:  Admissibility, Your Honour.  Because if we are

19     dealing with a separate person, we are admitting a document under the

20     presumption that we are dealing with the same person.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And would you consider that this Chamber would look

22     at this document as being about the same person if the witness says that

23     he recognises first name, second name, that he sees some similarity in

24     age, that that would, as such, for the Chamber be sufficient to consider

25     that this has now established, through the introduction of this exhibit,

Page 3146

 1     that it is the same person?

 2             MR. KNOOPS:  Not necessarily, Your Honours.  I cannot look into

 3     Your Honour's mind.  But our submission is that the basis for admission

 4     should be that there is no doubt that this witness can identify the

 5     person in this document.  Secondly, as to the authenticity, the

 6     signature, which you find at bottom of the document, is -- is disputed by

 7     the Defence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's the authenticity matter then.

 9             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.  It is not the signature of our defendant.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please respond to this latter -- the

11     first matter -- perhaps we deal with a few -- a few of the other

12     elements.

13             Mr. Tihic, are you familiar with the name of the parents of the

14     person you know as Mr. Djordjevic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know where he was born?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us whether you know what is -- where

19     Vranje is located?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know where Vranje is, but I don't

21     know anyone from Vranje.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But could you tell us where it is?  Is that

23     close to Bosanski --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbia.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Serbia.

Page 3147

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is further away, in the southern

 2     part of Serbia.  Perhaps it's about 300 or even 400 kilometres away.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  From Bosanski Samac, I take it?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could I ask the Prosecution to perhaps

 6     briefly deal with the matters raised?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 8             The Prosecution is tendering this document primarily based on its

 9     authenticity resulting from the provision of the document from the MUP

10     archives in -- in Serbia.  So the document was received by the Office of

11     the Prosecutor through an RFA, that is, RFA 1382.

12             So in terms of its authenticity, that -- that is the primary

13     basis for its authenticity.

14             As for the witness commenting on it, the witness can only give as

15     much as he can give.  And he can only confirm what he confirm.  This is

16     the same name that he has referred to throughout, and, therefore, I

17     wanted to show it to him and see whether he could comment upon it.

18             So the primary basis for our submission of tendering the document

19     into evidence is based on its authenticity as a result of having been

20     received pursuant to an RFA as explained in the bar table motion.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it your position that every document received

22     through am RFA is, for that purpose, authentic?  Or for that reason, I

23     should say.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Well, I would say that a receipt of a document

25     pursuant to an RFA from the MUP of Serbia does present very significant

Page 3148

 1     indicia of authenticity.  But certainly the weight to be given to that

 2     document is for the Chamber to determine.  Especially in comparison to

 3     President Tihic's testimony today, it is up to the Chamber to determine

 4     whether or not it is satisfied that this is the same individual that

 5     President Tihic has been speaking about.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes you are moving from admissibility to weight to

 7     be given, apparently, encouraged by my previous question.  But my

 8     question was about authenticity.

 9             Now, you say we received it through an RFA and therefore

10     that's -- but you have now heard what Mr. Knoops says about the

11     signature, who says that is not the signature of Mr. Stanisic.

12             Have you paid any attention to that yet?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Mr. President, the quandary we're finding

14     ourselves in is that according to our understanding the Stanisic Defence

15     did not contest the authenticity of any documents from the first bar

16     table motion.

17             So it seems to me that they've already -- we will definitely

18     check on this again, sir, during the break, with your leave.  We will

19     check one more time to make sure.  But that is my understanding, that the

20     Defence for Stanisic did not contest the authenticity of these documents,

21     including this one.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

23             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I know it's -- I'm out of turn, but I can

24     perhaps assist with the bar table motion.

25             Our response was -- in a sense, a non-response.  We said we

Page 3149

 1     cannot respond until the indictment issue has been settled.  Because --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that cover also issues like documents being

 3     authentic or not because whether or not bearing a signature?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we simply took the position that we

 5     couldn't -- or wouldn't -- or were not going to respond to the substance

 6     of the documents until the Prosecution particularised the link between

 7     the documents and a more particularised indictment.  I simply stand up to

 8     say that it is not correct that we've taken the position that all the

 9     documents are authentic.  We simply haven't taken a position one way or

10     another in the bar table motion.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a further look at it.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be MFI'd.  The Chamber will

14     further consider how to proceed.  That is, whether we would require a

15     proof of authenticity or not, whether the link with the witness is good

16     enough.  We'll further consider admission in all its aspects.

17             Madam Registrar, the --

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P179, marked for

19     identification, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

21             I'm looking at the clock.  We need a break.

22             Ms. Marcus, could you give us an indication as where you are in

23     terms of time.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would say I would need

25     approximately another 20 minutes, maximum 30.  I will try and keep it as

Page 3150

 1     short as possible.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you will go well beyond the two hours you

 3     have asked for.  So you are encouraged to -- to try to stay within the

 4     two hours of your estimate, and to the extent you're not able to do so,

 5     to not go much more beyond that.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Understood, Your Honour.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, before we take the break, we return into

 9     open session.  We are still in closed session.

10             Do we have to remain in closed session after the break?

11             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move into open session.

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             We will have a break and resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The document that was MFI'd during private session

20     should have the status of a confidential document, not a public document,

21     even though it's just MFI'd, nevertheless, we have to give it that

22     status.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   President Tihic, you mentioned in your evidence, your prior

Page 3151

 1     evidence, and also you mentioned today some other nicknames in addition

 2     to Crni.  You mentioned someone called Lugar.  You mentioned someone

 3     called Beli.  You mentioned Zvezdan.

 4             Can you tell us, were these individuals members of the same unit

 5     or of different units, to your knowledge?

 6        A.   They acted together.  They were the special forces, as we called

 7     them.  Whether they were a single unit or whether they comprised several

 8     units which were merged, that is something I don't know.

 9             But it was a joint team, so to say, commanded by Djordjevic,

10     aka Crni.

11        Q.   Now, earlier today, you mentioned the name of Zvezdan Jovanovic

12     it was in the -- it was not reflected in the transcript, but I think it

13     was at page 35, line 23, to page 36, line 2, of the temporary transcript.

14     You also mentioned this name in your Milosevic testimony a few times.

15             Could you tell us who was this person, Zvezdan Jovanovic?

16        A.   Zvezdan Jovanovic, the public knows this person as the assassin

17     of Zoran Djindjic, the prime-minister of Serbia.  I met him during my

18     stay in the Samac camp.  He beat me as well.  After a number of years

19     when I saw his photographs -- photograph in the daily press in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina under which it said the Serbian PM assassin, I

21     recognised him immediately.  I discussed it with some friends of mine who

22     were in Samac at the time, be it in the camp itself or outside, and they

23     all agreed with me that the person in the photograph is Zvezdan Jovanovic

24     who was in Samac as one of the special forces members.

25             A cousin of mine who was not detained and who used to know

Page 3152

 1     Zvezdan because they associated, remembers Jovanovic telling him, Oh, by

 2     the way, last night I beat up your cousin.  And stuff like that.

 3             I called him and he confirmed to me that indeed this that was

 4     Zvezdan Jovanovic.  In Samac he was the master of life and death.

 5        Q.   Apart from the beatings that you sustained at the hands of this

 6     Zvezdan Jovanovic, did you witness any other crimes committed in

 7     Bosanski Samac by Zvezdan Jovanovic?

 8        A.   I know, from what others said, that he was a criminal.  He seized

 9     vehicles.  And I know a person he used who worked in the administration

10     who would change registration papers of those cases -- cars so that he

11     could sell them in Serbia later on.  I saw him around as well.

12        Q.   President Tihic, I'm going to show you a very short clip from a

13     video in which members of the special operations unit of the Republic of

14     Serbia state security are being introduced to Slobodan Milosevic.  I'm

15     going to ask our Case Manager, Mr. Laugel, to play the clip for the

16     Court.

17             MS. MARCUS:  It's Exhibit P61.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. President, veterans of the

20     Special Operations Unit of the Republic of Serbia State Security are

21     lined up for inspection.  Colonel Zika Ivanovic reporting.

22             "Hello, Ivanovic.

23             "Mr. President, allow me to introduce the unit's veteran

24     officers.

25             " Mr. President, Colonel Radojica Bozovic.

Page 3153

 1             " Hello, Bozovic, I read those reports of yours.

 2             " Thank you ... God forbid there should be more of them, but

 3     should there be, I'm here.

 4             " Colonel Dusan Orlovic.

 5             " Pleased to meet you.

 6             " Likewise, comrade president.

 7             " Colonel Vasilije Miojovic.

 8             " Pleased to meet you.

 9             " Colonel Goran Opacic.

10             " Hello.

11             " Colonel Predrag Prica.

12             " Pleased to meet you.

13             " Lieutenant-Colonel Zvezdan Jovanovic.

14             " Pleased to meet you.

15             " Lieutenant-Colonel Sirno Ratkovic.

16             " Pleased to meet you.

17             " Lieutenant-Colonel, pilot, Milutin Radivojevic.

18             " Pleased to meet you.

19             " Good.

20             " Major Nikola Filipovic.

21             " Hello, major.

22             " Major Davor Subotic.

23             " Hello.

24             " Major Miroljub Budimir.

25             " Hello.

Page 3154

 1             " Captain, Doctor, Miroljub Savic.

 2             " Hello.

 3             " Captain Dragan Oljuic.

 4             " Hello.

 5             " Captain Dragisa Grujic.

 6             " Pleased to meet you.

 7             " Captain Dragoljub Ratkovic.

 8             " Pleased to meet you.

 9             " Captain Nikola Loncar.

10             " Pleased to meet you.  Welcome.

11             " Captain Djurica Banjac.

12             " Hello.

13             " Captain Dragoljub Popovic.

14             " Hello.

15             " Lieutenant Svetozar Nakarada.

16             " Hello Svetozar."

17             MS. MARCUS:

18        Q.   President Tihic, we have heard a man named Zvezdan Jovanovic

19     being introduced to Mr. Milosevic.  Is this the same man as the one whom

20     you describe in your evidence as having been the master of life and

21     death?

22        A.   This footage is not perfectly clear, but I'd say this is the

23     person.  The footage is a bit dark, but the build is the same, although I

24     cannot see his eyes or face clearly.  But I think Zvezdan Jovanovic is

25     this person.  That person did what he did later on, and people of

Page 3155

 1     Bosanski Samac know him.  I'm not the only one.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 3679.

 3     I'm sorry, I'm sorry -- no, no, in fact -- that's correct, I'm slightly

 4     dyslexic, sorry.

 5        Q.   President Tihic, can you tell us what we're looking at in this

 6     photo, in these photos?

 7        A.   You can see two houses.  It used to be by me and my brother.  We

 8     used it as business premises and part of -- of which was my legal office.

 9     You can see what is left of the inscription that was there.

10             They burned it at the outset, the first or the second day.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what was written there before it was destroyed.

12     Can you read to us what is written there?

13        A.   It says, attorney-at-law, Sulejman Tihic.  Because, at that time,

14     I was a lawyer, and this was my office, across the street from the court

15     building.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Could I now ask the Court Officer, please, to call

18     up 65 ter 3769.  And the English on -- yeah, thank you.

19        Q.   President Tihic, do you have personal knowledge of the contents

20     of this document?

21        A.   I see from the text that all persons are refused leave to leave

22     the territory of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac without

23     passes.  This order was in place, and no one could leave Samac without

24     their approval.

25        Q.   How did this impact upon the community in Bosanski Samac?

Page 3156

 1        A.   It had a negative impact, in the sense that people felt helpless,

 2     fearful.  Those citizens who remained and who were not Serbs were later

 3     used in exchanges.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document --

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, sir.  Did you want to add something, sir?

 6        A.   And they were constantly exposed to attacks, maltreatment, rapes,

 7     thefts.  Those of us who stayed, who were unable to leave.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this document

 9     into evidence.  It's not one of the related exhibits.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any objections?

11             I hear of no objections.

12             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P180, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P180 is admitted into evidence.

15             MS. MARCUS:

16        Q.   President Tihic, that document that we just saw, which -- which

17     restricted freedom of movement for non-Serbs in Bosanski Samac, was this

18     policy part of what you referred to earlier today as the political

19     project?

20        A.   The restriction of movement served primarily to retain a portion

21     of the population who were Muslims and Croats, in order to have people

22     for exchanges, who could be exchanged for the Serbs who were on the other

23     side and who had been detained or captured.  The ultimate goal was for

24     all of them to leave the area finally, to move out.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you refer to the document as the

Page 3157

 1     document which restricted freedom of movement for non-Serbs.

 2             Was the document talking about all persons or about non-Serbs?

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Perhaps I should put the question to

 4     President Tihic, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm asking what the document says.  So,

 6     therefore, let's look at the document.

 7             It disappeared from my screen, but ...

 8             I don't see any -- any restriction in the document.  Apart from

 9     how it was used, how it was practiced, but you refer to the document as

10     the document which limited the freedom of movement on non-Serbs.  And I

11     think, as a matter of fact, that the document talks about no individual

12     without any reference to ethnicity.

13             MS. MARCUS:  You are correct, Your Honours, and it was -- I was

14     referring back to the comment by President Tihic as --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But could you please clearly distinguish

16     between -- well, and even in the testimony of Mr. Tihic, I don't think

17     that he said that this was -- he said that those citizens who remained

18     and who were not Serbs were later used in exchanges.  That is non-Serbs,

19     apparently, who were subject to this rule were exchanged.  It doesn't

20     say -- even the testimony in that respect doesn't say how it was

21     specifically applied to the various ethnicities.

22             May I ask you to be very precise in referring to documents.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   A final question for you, President Tihic.

Page 3158

 1             Can you tell the Court how your prior experiences have affected

 2     you?

 3        A.   Irrespective of everything that had taken place, even at such

 4     times you could come across what I would say humans and non-humans.  Even

 5     after all this, people will go on living together in Bosnia-Herzegovina;

 6     Croats, Serbs, and Muslims, because it's a society of that type, despite

 7     the conflicts and suffering.

 8             The project, which was aimed at separating the peoples and which

 9     aimed at arousing conflict, failed.

10        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

11             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, that concludes the

12     examination-in-chief, but I am prepared to make a brief submission in

13     relation to Your Honours' original query as to the quantity of documents

14     being tendered and the quantity of prior statements and transcripts.

15             I could make it now; I could make it after the close of the

16     cross-examination; or in written submissions, as Your Honours please.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber would prefer if, at this moment, we

19     would further hear the evidence of the witness and delay that other

20     matter.  And we'll consider what's the most appropriate way in dealing

21     with it.  It could be that if we have time that we invite you to do it

22     orally, and if no time remains, we might ask written submissions for that

23     purpose.

24             The sequence of cross-examination.  Mr. Knoops, you will be first

25     the first one to ...

Page 3159

 1             So it is the Stanisic Defence who will start to cross-examine the

 2     witness.

 3             Mr. Tihic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Knoops.

 4     Mr. Knoops is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Knoops:

 7        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic.

 8        A.   [In English] Good afternoon.

 9        Q.   Mr. Tihic, I will try to follow the line of questioning my

10     learned friend of the Prosecution has followed, so I'd first like to

11     start with some of your background information, if you don't mind.

12             Sir, is it correct that you never served in the military?

13        A.   [Interpretation] I did not.

14        Q.   Is it --

15        A.   For health reasons.

16        Q.   Yes.  So, it's fair to say that you have no knowledge on military

17     structures of command and control; is that correct?

18        A.   I know about the military structure, to the extent of what I was

19     familiar with as a lawyer.  But in terms of command, no, I don't know

20     that.

21        Q.   But as a lawyer, were you involved in military cases?

22        A.   No, I was not.

23        Q.   So it's fair to say that what you have testified about, in terms

24     of your observations, in terms of who's commanding individuals, is purely

25     based on your subjective feeling; is that correct?

Page 3160

 1        A.   I base that on what I could see, on what I felt, and on the

 2     things I discussed with others or learned through conversations with

 3     others.  People did not introduce themselves to me.

 4        Q.   Yes.  But if you had to describe in those days, in April 1992,

 5     the military structure of the JNA, were you able to set up a structure?

 6        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army was representative through the

 7     Ministry of Defence in the federal government.  In terms of command, at

 8     the top there was the General Staff, then Military Districts, corps,

 9     brigades, detachments, and so forth.

10        Q.   And this is based on your knowledge through other sources; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   My knowledge is similar to the knowledge of any person who dealt

13     with politics, and the structure of the JNA was part of the legal system.

14     I knew the basic legislation pertaining to it.

15        Q.   But it's correct that if it would come to details how a military

16     unit would operate, you would have no knowledge, isn't it?

17        A.   How they operated.  I know the basic things like others.  The

18     principle of subordination and command, superior/subordinate

19     relationship.  That's what I know specifically.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tihic.  You introduced today, again, the name of

21     Mr. Simic.  Could you give us a brief description of Mr. Simic?

22             Let me be very specific: Is it correct that he was part of the

23     SDS?

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, perhaps learned counsel could specify

25     which Simic he is talking about.

Page 3161

 1             MR. KNOOPS:  Blagoje.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is about Blagoje Simic and whether he

 3     was part of the SDS.

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Blagoje Simic was the president of

 6     the SDS and deputy speaker of the legally elected Municipal Assembly in

 7     Bosanski Samac.  After that, he was president of the Serb municipality of

 8     Bosanski Samac.  I knew him before the war, I knew his brother, his

 9     father, if that's what you want to note.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all the other

11     microphones be switched off while the witness is answering.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He also commanded the Crisis Staff.

13             MR. KNOOPS:

14        Q.   Would you agree with me, Mr. Tihic, that he was a hard-liner in

15     terms of a member of the SDS?

16        A.   Approximately, yes.

17             MR. KNOOPS:  Maybe we can pull up Exhibit P180; Prosecution

18     document just shown to the witness.

19        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you have in front again before you document P180.

20     Could you explain to the Court who issued this document?

21        A.   I don't know.  It says the Crisis Staff of the municipality.  I

22     can suppose, although I don't see the first and last name and I don't

23     recognise the signature, but I assume it was signed by the president of

24     the Crisis Staff.  The president was Simic.

25        Q.   So you would agree with me that it is likely that this document

Page 3162

 1     was issued by Blagoje Simic; is that correct?

 2        A.   It is likely.  Although it -- his name is not there.  But it is

 3     only logical that the president signed Crisis Staff documents.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Now, you testified that you were privy to some of the

 5     conversations with Mr. Simic.  Is it correct, sir, that he actually

 6     enforced these kinds of decisions without approval of anyone?

 7        A.   I don't know how he enforced these decisions.  At that time, I

 8     was detained.  On the 21st of May, I was already in Batajnica in the

 9     military prison.

10        Q.   Yes.  Could you have a look at Article 2 of that decision,

11     mentioning the public security station.

12             You see that?  Yes.  Have you any idea why it's --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Have you any idea why the public security station is mentioned

15     here in Article 2?

16        A.   The public security station is in charge of civilians, and the

17     military command was in charge of conscripts.  That's why I believe this

18     is here.

19        Q.   Yes.  At the bottom of this document you see that it is copied to

20     the public security station as well as military commands.

21             My question is: Do you know what military commands are referred

22     to here, or meant?

23        A.   I can presume again.  This is the 21st of May.  I think it has to

24     do with certain military commands of the Serb TO or the armed forces, the

25     commands which existed in the field at the time.  I suppose these were

Page 3163

 1     local commands, because the Municipal Crisis Staff could not issue orders

 2     to larger military formations.  I can only guess, but it would be

 3     illogical for a Municipal Crisis Staff to issue orders to senior

 4     commands.  They presumably could do so in the case of local units, such

 5     as the Territorial Defence Staff of Samac, and the units -- Serb units

 6     which were under that staff.

 7        Q.   But you would agree with me that this document is actually an

 8     order to the military command?  Apart from whether it was a bigger unit

 9     or a smaller unit.  It is directed to the military command.

10             Is that a fair reading of the document, Mr. Witness?

11        A.   That's what it says --

12        Q.   So --

13        A.   -- but there's no logic in a municipal level issuing orders to

14     commands of Military Districts, corps, or brigades.  I think this had to

15     do with the local population which was organised as part of the Serb TO.

16        Q.   Yeah.  Mr. Tihic, do you agree with me that at that time it was

17     not uncommon for a Crisis Staff to issuing orders to military commanders;

18     is that correct?

19        A.   I don't think a Crisis Staff could issue orders to military

20     commands.  Military commands were senior to Crisis Staffs in my

21     assessment.  And I mean the Crisis Staffs of municipalities.

22        Q.   Yeah, but we're not dealing with ordinary situations, sir, we're

23     dealing with a state of emergency.

24             Is it correct, that, in the state of emergency, the Crisis Staff

25     was empowered to issue orders to military units?

Page 3164

 1        A.   I don't think so.  Military structures issue orders to military

 2     units.  They can only issue orders to local military units that are

 3     within a Territorial Defence Staff, whereas, the others get orders from

 4     the minister, from their commander.

 5        Q.   But this is your assumption.  You just testified that you have no

 6     knowledge on military structures.  But can you exclude the possibility

 7     that this order was issued from the Crisis Staff, i.e., Mr. Simic, to the

 8     local military command, at that time present in Bosanski Samac?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Knoops, the witness cannot exclude that on the

10     basis of his previous testimony, I can answer the question.

11             The witness has said, in many respects, that he has to guess; he

12     doesn't know precisely this and this and this; and then to say, Can you

13     exclude ... I could answer that question for him.

14             The witness, apparently -- you can ask him what he knows.  You

15     earlier objected against seeking opinion.  You will ask five, six, or

16     seven questions, we're all seeking opinion not with a proper factual

17     basis.  The only question which was really of a factual character was the

18     question whether it was common at the time that a certain thing happened.

19     The witness did not answer that question.

20             Let's -- let's try to get --

21             Mr. Tihic, when did you see this document for the first time?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Today, perhaps.  I don't know.

23     During this session or during proofing.  Perhaps this was one of the

24     documents that was shown to me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, do you have any knowledge of -- you said

Page 3165

 1     earlier that you were in prison.  Do you have any knowledge gained in

 2     whatever way about who were addressed, how it was distributed, how it was

 3     enforced?  Do you have any factual knowledge of -- of that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no factual knowledge.  I can

 5     just assume how things may function, you see.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because, you see, a military unit

 8     is rather -- or, rather, it functions at a far broader level than a

 9     municipality.  And now if every municipal staff were to issue orders to

10     that military unit that pertains to ten municipalities, there is no

11     logic.  These order can be different.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you already told us a couple of times of

13     what you considered to be logic and not.  Now sometimes facts are not

14     always in accordance with logic.  Sometimes they are, sometimes they are

15     not.

16             Mr. Knoops, we've heard a lot of logic and conclusions.  And if

17     you don't -- if have you no idea about in which way this was distributed,

18     to whom it was addressed, whether it's logic, et cetera, et cetera, to

19     address it to A, B, or C, then, of course, with that level of knowledge

20     of what happened, you can't exclude anything.

21             Therefore, I think that question is answered, although not by the

22     witness but by me.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. KNOOPS:  I'm grateful for that answer, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Mr. Tihic, it's correct that Mr. Blagoje Simic made the proposal

Page 3166

 1     to divide -- to make the division of the Serbs from the non-Serbs; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And is it correct that he would threaten you and your colleagues

 5     in that time with the JNA?

 6        A.   He did not say it specifically, but he said that, unless he got

 7     an answer, a positive answer, a favourable answer within seven day, he

 8     knows in which way to achieve --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the rest.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not say whether he would do

11     it through the JNA or in some other way, but we took it as a threat of

12     use of force.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

14     microphones please be switched off while the witness is speaking.

15     Thank you.

16             MR. KNOOPS:  May I please ask the Court Usher to pull up P174,

17     please.  It's page 2, the English version, fourth paragraph.

18        Q.   And it reads in line 7 -- sorry, 9.  Line 9.

19             Mr. Tihic, you have before the B/C/S version of your statement of

20     28 February 1995, page 2, fourth paragraph, line 9, saying:

21             "Every time I had some private contact with him," referring to

22     Blagoje Simic, "he would threaten us with the JNA."

23             Do you see it sir?

24        A.   I don't see that.

25        Q.   The paragraph starts with -- after four days before the attack --

Page 3167

 1     sorry.  About four days after the attack, I believe it was the Monday

 2     before, the Serbs insisted on having a meeting of municipality

 3     representatives, et cetera.

 4             You see that paragraph, sir.  Yeah?

 5        A.   I don't see that.  But I remember that I have already spoken

 6     about that.  Maybe you could scroll back.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.  I think have now the right page in

 8     front of us.

 9             The first long paragraph.

10             MR. KNOOPS:

11        Q.   You see, Mr. Tihic, you say, in 1995:

12             "Every time I had some private contact with him, he would

13     threaten us with the JNA?"

14             Do you remember that statement, sir?  Is it a correct statement?

15        A.   It is correct.  Whatever is written there is correct.

16        Q.   So --

17        A.   Are you asking me about a specific date, just before the attack?

18     You asked me whether he threatened with the JNA on that day by presenting

19     an ultimatum to us a few days before the attack when he was asking for a

20     Serb municipality of Samac.  That is how I understood your question.

21     Whether he then made threats concerning the JNA.  He did not mention the

22     JNA on that occasion.

23        Q.   Doesn't matter.  So -- but he did threaten with the JNA,

24     irrespective of the time; is that correct?

25        A.   I understood your question to pertain to that specific meeting,

Page 3168

 1     and that is why I gave the answer I gave.

 2        Q.   I'm sorry to be unclear.  But -- so, Mr. Simic threatened you in

 3     the days before the attack with JNA.  Is that correct?  Yes or no.

 4        A.   Well, that's what is written here, that that's what I said, that

 5     he then made threats involving the JNA.  We didn't know of anybody else's

 6     existence then.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm asking you not to elaborate on what you think.  Just

 8     please stick to the question.

 9             Mr. Simic did threaten you with the JNA.  What do you refer --

10     what you mean with the wording "every time."

11        A.   Well, look, if we're going to see what I said with full

12     authenticity, he said that the Serbs have the support of the JNA.  There

13     is a difference there.  Isn't there?  He didn't say the JNA would do

14     that.  He said that he had the support of the JNA.  And that can mean

15     providing them with weapons, securing logistics.

16        Q.   Mr. Tihic, is it correct that --

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Tihic, that Mr. Simic threatened to say, If you are not

19     agreeing with the proposal, I will call in the JNA; is that correct?

20        A.   No, no, he did not say that he would call the JNA.  He didn't say

21     that.  He said that he knew a way in which he could resolve that.

22        Q.   And is it correct that he threatened you and the people who were

23     with you at that time to get support from the JNA, in terms of weapons,

24     logistics, forces, et cetera?

25        A.   Not on that day.  On that day he did not mention the JNA or

Page 3169

 1     support or anything else, but he did say that he knew in which way he

 2     would achieve that.  He didn't mention anyone.

 3        Q.   And on how many occasions did he elaborate on this JNA

 4     involvement?

 5        A.   Well, you see, Blagoje Simic spoke less about the JNA.  It was

 6     Simo Zaric who spoke more of the JNA and Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic and

 7     this Fourth Detachment.  He generally spoke about the general support of

 8     the JNA.  The Serbs have the support of the JNA.  And the representatives

 9     of the JNA were Simo Zaric, Radovan Antic who were in the structures

10     there.  They spoke about the JNA.

11        Q.   Is it correct that Zaric was also a member of the SDS; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   No.  No.  Zaric was the League of Communists, the

14     Socialist Party, whatever; he was never SDS.  They didn't like him.  His

15     wife was a Muslim.

16        Q.   Did you, at any time, notice that Mr. Simic did speak to

17     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic about the support of the JNA?

18        A.   I don't know whether he did speak.  But as a rule,

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic came to meetings with Simo Zaric and

20     Radovan Antic.  Those were the persons that Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic

21     relied on in Bosanski Samac, at least at the meetings that I attended.

22     And it was Simo Zaric more than Antic.  And they were the commander and

23     assistant commander of that Fourth Detachment of theirs in Samac.

24        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that the decision to attack came from

25     Mr. Nikolic?

Page 3170

 1        A.   I don't know exactly who it was that took the decision to attack.

 2     I can just guess, on the basis of other sources.  But I don't know --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the rest.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

 5     answer.  You said:  But I don't know ... and what did you then say?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who specifically made

 7     the decision to attack Samac.  I can just guess, on the basis of the

 8     information that I have.  It wasn't Nikolic.  That's it.

 9     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic was not the one who did it.

10             MR. KNOOPS:  Could we please pull up P173.  Referring to page 5

11     of the statement of the witness in -- in English version, starting with

12     the paragraph reading:

13             "The night before Samac was attacked, Bozanovic Fitozovic,

14     Simo Zaric and the presidents of all the parties had a meeting to decide

15     ..."  et cetera.

16             I ask the witness to look at that paragraph, in specific the

17     14th sentence -- 14th line starting with:

18             "I think the decision to attack came from Nikolic" --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first get the right page in B/C/S on the

20     screen.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 6 in B/C/S, Your Honours.

22             MR. KNOOPS:

23        Q.   You see, Mr. Witness?  The paragraph in which it's mentioned,

24     14th line:

25             "I think the decision to attack came from Nikolic in Brcko, but I

Page 3171

 1     don't know who gave Nikolic the order."

 2        A.   I can't find that.

 3             "I think the decision to attack came from Nikolic in Brcko, but I

 4     do not know who gave Nikolic the order.  It could be ..."

 5             I said I think.  However, later, on the basis of some information

 6     that I received --

 7        Q.   My question is -- my question is --

 8        A.   I don't think it came from Nikolic.  I think that Nikolic was

 9     also taken by surprise.

10        Q.   But on what basis you stated in 1995 that you thought that

11     decision to attack came from Nikolic?  What was the basis of the

12     information which led to you think that?

13        A.   Well, you see, in 1995, the war was still under way.  And now,

14     after the war, just look at Simo Zaric's book.  Read it.  And you will

15     see from whom the attack -- the order to attack came from.  He was taken

16     by surprise too.  Some other information showed that the army got

17     involved in the attack on Samac, only several hours after these other

18     units, the special units, and the Territorial Defence Staff of

19     Republika Srpska entered the town.

20             I said that, because that's what I thought at the time.  In the

21     mean time, I hadn't had any contact with some people out there in the

22     field.  Hadn't seen them in quite a while.  And then I came to realise

23     that what I had thought at the time was not correct, that the order had

24     come from another side, not down the military line.  That is clearly

25     stated in Simo Zaric's book.  You can buy the book.  He was involved in

Page 3172

 1     the Simic/Zaric case, and he explains that very specifically where the

 2     attack came -- or, rather, where the attack order came from.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, I have to interrupt.  So you are saying that on the

 4     basis of a book you're now withdrawing your statement from 1994 in which

 5     you informed the investigators of the Prosecution that you, at that time,

 6     were of the opinion that a decision to attack came from Nikolic.

 7             Is that correct?

 8        A.   I'm not withdrawing my statement.  You see that I said then

 9     "I think" and so on.  I didn't say I assert.  I said I think.  On the

10     basis of what I had available at that point in time.  To think and to

11     assert are two different things.

12        Q.   We leave that point for now.  We go page 4 of your statement of

13     1994 which, in the second paragraph of the English version, states -- if

14     you please have a look at it, the English version, page 4, second

15     paragraph starting with:

16             "The Territorial Defence was not made up of professional

17     soldiers ..." et cetera.

18             The last line of that paragraph reads:

19             "I do not personally know from where Nikolic got his orders, but

20     only the military command in Belgrade could give orders or have authority

21     over the JNA."

22             Do you see that, sir?

23        A.   I can't see that.  But it is only logical that Nikolic can get

24     his orders from the command up there in Belgrade.

25             Of course.  I mean, the page hasn't opened yet, so I can't see

Page 3173

 1     what is written there.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we always try to find the version that the

 3     witness can read.  I think it is --

 4             Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4 in B/C/S.  The last lines

 6     on page 4 and the very beginning of page 5 in B/C/S.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think the -- I think Mr. Knoops specifically

 8     referred to the last part of that paragraph which is on the next page.

 9             Could you please take your time to read the first paragraph as it

10     appears on your screen now.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

12             I have said that I personally do not know where Nikolic got his

13     orders from but it was only the military command in Belgrade that could

14     give orders and have authority over the JNA.

15             That is a general statement, a general position, on the basis of

16     the knowledge that I had.  As I said a few moments ago, what I know about

17     the military structure, that superiors give orders to their subordinates.

18     So it's only logical that Nikolic who was in Brcko gets his orders from

19     someone above him.

20             MR. KNOOPS:

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, I didn't yet pose a question to you.  Would you

22     please wait for the question and not elaborate on logic or illogical

23     things, please, sir.

24             Now my question is: Do you agree with me that you're not speaking

25     here of thinking but you are specifically referring to Nikolic getting

Page 3174

 1     his orders which is a different thing from that you thought that he was

 2     involved in the attack; is that correct?

 3             You, in other words, don't -- you do not make any reservation

 4     here except that you don't personally know it, but you say --

 5        A.   It's the most important thing there.  I'm saying I don't know.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Not going to discuss this point.

 7             I'm putting to you that Mr. Simic called in the JNA through

 8     Nikolic to attack Samac; is that correct?

 9        A.   No.  No, I don't think so.

10        Q.   There's a difference between no, and I don't think so, I believe.

11     So what is it?  You don't know, or you --

12        A.   No.  No.  No.  Simic cannot call Nikolic to attack Samac, no.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So let's -- let's try to get -- let's try to get

14     matters straight.

15             You say you do not know from whom Nikolic got his orders.

16             Secondly, you say it would not be very logic that he would have

17     received his orders from Simic.

18             That's your answer.

19             I agree with Mr. Knoops, and I said before, logic is -- is not --

20     I can imagine that you describe that, but we -- you are a witness of fact

21     and you say, I do not know from whom he got his orders.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't, no.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.

24             MR. KNOOPS:

25        Q.   If you don't know, did you see, at that time -- point in time,

Page 3175

 1     any documents indicating how exactly Mr. Simic was communicating with any

 2     other individuals or politicians?

 3        A.   Documents?  Whether I saw any document?  I don't remember.

 4     Perhaps if you have some document that I could comment upon?

 5        Q.   We are not putting, yet, a document to you.  I put to you that

 6     the attack on Bosanski Samac was effected by the 7th [sic] Corps of the

 7     JNA that belonged to the 2nd Military District in cooperation with the

 8     local authorities, i.e., Mr. Simic.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   It's not correct, rather.

10             MR. KNOOPS:  The transcript reads "7th Corps."  It's

11     "17th Corps," sorry.

12        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Witness, that the local authorities of

13     Bosanski Samac had, at that time, intensive communications with the

14     Serbian Radical Party?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, and this may be my last question, Your Honour,

17     for this topic, then we could potentially adjourn.

18             In your statement of 1995, which is P174, page 3, English

19     version, page 3, the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's always wait until we have the document in both

21     languages on our screen.

22             MR. KNOOPS:  It's the seventh paragraph.

23        Q.   You find it, Mr. Witness?  You see it?  Starting with the line:

24             "I consider the following people to be the most responsible for

25     the planning of" --

Page 3176

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And we wait until we have the document -- now we

 2     have it.  And, as a matter of fact, not the right page yet, as far as I

 3     can see.  No, it's still not -- there we are.

 4             Do you see it at the bottom of the page in your own language?

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Knoops.

 6             MR. KNOOPS:

 7        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you see, there, the paragraph starting with the words:

 8             "I consider the following people to be the most responsible for

 9     the planing of and executing the attack on Bosanski Samac."

10             Do you see that, sir?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Could you read, please, the first name, the first names?

13        A.   Simo Zaric and Blagoje Simic.  Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic,

14     Captain Petrovic, chief of KOS for the attack on the town, Radovan Antic

15     and Mirko Jovanovic, Stevo Todorovic.

16        Q.   That will do, witness.  Sorry.  Just the first line.

17             So you -- so you agree with me that you blame

18     Lieutenant-Colonel Nikolic, Simic, Zaric, Petrovic, chief of KOS, for the

19     planning of and the execution of the attack.

20             Did you -- do you still stand to this statement, sir?

21        A.   According to the information I had then, I made that statement

22     then.  They all did take part in the attack on Samac, after all.

23     Especially, well, both Zaric and Simic.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  We will deal

25     with the separate names later.

Page 3177

 1             MR. KNOOPS:  I think, Your Honour, if I may suggest, to finish

 2     this topic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. KNOOPS:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I inquire with you, Mr. Knoops, and with the

 6     other parties on the timing of cross-examination?

 7             MR. KNOOPS:  Sorry?  I had my microphone off.  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would inquire with the parties how much time

 9     they think they would need for cross-examination.

10             MR. KNOOPS:  I would, say from the Stanisic Defence, maximum one

11     hour left.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One hour left.

13             And the Simatovic Defence?

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that it

15     will be one hour, perhaps a bit more than one hour.  Of course, it

16     depends on the questions that my colleague will put.  But I believe that

17     one hour would be an optimum and the most realistic from our point of

18     view.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking which would mean that we would start the

20     next witness tomorrow, somewhere in the second session, most likely,

21     possibly at the beginning of the third session.  If the parties would

22     please keep that in mind that -- and it also is clear that, for planning

23     purposes, it's also important to know whether the next witness has to

24     remain stand by or not.  So that's one of the reasons why I'm asking.

25             Mr. Tihic, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak

Page 3178

 1     or in any other way communicate with anyone about your testimony, whether

 2     that is testimony you have given already today, or whether that's

 3     testimony still to be given tomorrow.

 4             We would like to see you back tomorrow, at a quarter past 2.00,

 5     because we adjourn.  And we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

 6     4th of February, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

 9                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.