1 Tuesday, 9 February 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is the case IT-03-69-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before we start, just an update on -- without going into any
12 details, but an update on medical reporting.
13 Mr. Jordash, I take it that you have received the answers sent by
14 Dr. Eekhof, which were -- you haven't received them.
15 MR. JORDASH: No, we haven't. Whether we have been sent them and
16 we've missed them, I'm not sure. I'll just check.
17 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: It was filed, Mr. Jordash. It was filed
19 confidentially, and again I have no intention of going into the details.
20 That's one.
21 And then we received the most recent weekly report from
22 Dr. Eekhof, but that was only very -- one hour ago, two hours ago, I do
23 not know exactly. Conclusions are not any different from earlier
24 conclusions but especially the last weekly report gives more details
25 about certain matters.
1 Is there any reason to specifically deal with it?
2 MR. JORDASH: If Your Honour indicates that the conclusions are
3 the same, then -- then obviously we don't raise any point in relation to
4 that report.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The conclusions are the same. That's -- I'm
6 not saying that all of the content is -- there are new elements in it,
7 but as far as I can see, not worrying. Rather, the opposite.
8 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then there is one other matter I'd like to deal with
10 before the witness enters the courtroom. That is -- no. One other
11 matter is that we are still working on scheduling of a housekeeping
13 What seems to be an option at this moment would be next week,
14 Friday, afternoon. And I am aware that that's perhaps not the --
15 certainly it's not for the Chamber the most preferred option. If we can
16 deal with some of the matters in time gained during one of our two
17 sessions next week, we might even consider to -- to establish that there
18 is no need for a housekeeping session anymore, which, perhaps, would be
19 preferred above having a housekeeping session of half an hour or
20 45 minutes and then everyone having to come back or stay in The Hague for
21 that Friday afternoon.
22 Mr. Bakrac.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to take a
24 minute of your time to thank the Trial Chamber for their understanding,
25 for the position in which Mr. Petrovic and I find ourselves, and your
1 willingness to move the Status Conference to a later date at the expense
2 of the Trial Chamber's comfort, in the terms of that this session is
3 going to be held on, in other words, on Friday afternoon.
4 Thank you very much, once again, for your understanding.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
6 The last matter we briefly have to address is the following:
7 Mr. Groome has asked an opportunity to address the Chamber in relation to
8 exhibits to be used during cross-examination of Mr. Lazarevic, and I will
9 give a brief opportunity to him to do so.
10 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. 27 of the 54 documents the
11 Simatovic Defence intends to use with this witness concern what appears
12 to be a pending criminal case. The jurisprudence of this Tribunal is
13 clear that even absent the criminal conviction, a party may cross-examine
14 a witness on prior bad acts as long as there are reasonable grounds for
15 doing so. This principle was first articulated by the Krajisnik Chamber
16 in its decision on the cross-examination of Milorad Davidovic, dated the
17 15 December, 2005
18 written decision of the 12th of June, 2009.
19 Both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and
20 the European Convention on Human Rights afford all of us in the courtroom
21 with a right to counsel under Articles 14 and 6, respectively. And while
22 there is no explicit right against self-incrimination in deference to
23 different legal systems, the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human
24 Rights has consistently interpreted Article 6's right to a fair trial to
25 afford an implicit right against self-incrimination.
1 Rule 90(E) of our own Rules reflect the value this institution
2 places on protecting the right against self-incrimination. And while
3 90(E) empowers the Trial Chamber to compel answers to incriminatory
4 questions as well as give assurances to a witness that such answers will
5 not be used against him, it is not the role of the Prosecution to
6 insulate witnesses from legitimate Prosecutions if these charges are
7 proper and currently pending before the courts of Serbia. Mr. Lazarevic
8 must address them. But the fact that a person comes to this Court to
9 testify does not dispossess them of their rights. And while it may be
10 fair and proper for Mr. Bakrac to ask the witness questions about these
11 allegations, it is must be done in a manner which safe-guards the rights
12 of the witness.
13 The Perisic Chamber recognised in its decision at paragraph 21
14 that the mechanism afforded in 90(E) for protecting the rights of a
15 witness may not have legal affect before a domestic Court. It adopted a
16 pragmatic approach suggesting that private session could be used to the
17 same effect. It also suggested that a witness may seek the assistance of
18 counsel should the witness deem that necessary before answering certain
19 questions put before him.
20 I would, therefore, make this in limine motion seeking the
21 following relief: One, that both Defence teams be prohibited from asking
22 questions that implicate Mr. Lazarevic's rights against
23 self-incrimination and counsel in open session without a prior discussion
24 with the Chamber. And, two, that if and when such a moment arises, that
25 the Chamber explicitly inform Mr. Lazarevic of his right to request
1 private session and his right to seek the advice of counsel before
2 answering any question in relation to the allegations related to a
3 pending criminal case.
4 And, finally, Your Honours, I will be addressing the issue of the
5 general admissibility of these documents should they be tendered.
6 Ms. Marcus will handle all other objections with respect to this witness.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
9 Any need to respond at this moment?
10 Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be very brief.
12 The proceedings that have been instituted in Serbia against this
13 person are public, so there is no secrecy involved in this respect.
14 The proceedings -- the investigative part of the proceedings is
15 complete. The -- an indictment has been issued. And a warrant -- a
16 warrant of arrest has been issued as well for this individual. So I
17 would not be opposed if you so decide to discuss these matters in closed
18 session, but, as my colleague said himself, and I believe I understood
19 his words correctly, the right to a fair trial also implies the right of
20 me as one of the Defence counsel of one of the accused to point out to
21 the Trial Chamber any issues relating to the credibility of this witness,
22 especially so as some of his answers in the Milosevic case are -- or tie
23 in with what I am going to question him about regarding certain documents
24 that I obtained from the first lower court in Belgrade in -- through
25 regular channels. These documents were obtained from the first lower
1 court in Belgrade
2 Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that -- and there
4 seems to be some misunderstanding between you and Mr. Groome, the issue
5 apparently is that Mr. Groome wants to avoid that any questions will be
6 put to the witness which may have an effect on his right to remain silent
7 in his own proceedings, in public, because if we would ask him these
8 questions in public and if the Chamber would use its power under
9 Rule 90(E) to tell the witness that he has to answer the question in view
10 of the still unsettled matter of the effect of any order of this Chamber
11 that a statement could not be used against that person, what the effect
12 would be in any domestic system, that the right not to incriminate
13 himself, which is a right under Serbian law as well, because it directly
14 derives from Article 6 of European Court on Human Rights to which Serbia
15 is a party, that we would -- we would have public statements on matters
16 on which the person involved, a witness before this Court, an accused in
18 Therefore, the matter of publicity is not the matter of the
19 public character of the trial, either before this Court or before the
20 court in Serbia
21 remained silent upon in a Serbian court would then be part of the public
22 records of this Court, where the protection provided to such a person
23 that it will not be used against him is, at this moment at least, not
24 firmly established, that is, the effect of any such order on domestic
1 That seems to be, if I well understood your problem, Mr. Groome,
2 is that -- if it is so, please tell me; if it is not, please correct me
3 if I'm wrong.
4 MR. GROOME: That is a correct characterisation of my argument,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, did you understand what the --
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I believe I
8 understood you correctly the first time around. But I was probably
9 insufficiently clear.
10 In other words, I have no problems with putting any questions to
11 him in closed session and in him choosing to defend himself by silence or
12 not to answer my questions.
13 As far as I'm concerned, I will put the questions to him in
14 closed session if the Trial Chamber so decides and he may choose not to
15 answer any of my questions.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH: May I indicate our position, although I will not be
19 putting these issues to the witness. Our position would that the only
20 aspect of the witness's -- of the question and answer session that should
21 be in private would be any answers which are compelled. As for the
22 questions, they should be in public, in our respectful submission.
23 As for the warning to the witness about self-incrimination, that
24 should be in public. And if the witness chooses to give up his right to
25 self-incrimination, then the answers should then be given in public.
1 Those are our -- that's our position.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which leaves open the question of advice to be
3 given to the witness apparently accused in Serbia on whether or not to
4 use his right not to incriminate himself.
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The matter is clear. Let's get started.
7 The Chamber will carefully listen to any question and as soon,
8 Mr. Bakrac, you enter an area which is related to any ongoing proceedings
9 against this witness before a Serbian court, I would like you to clearly
10 indicate that so as to give the Chamber an opportunity to explain to the
11 witness his rights. And then we'll see whether -- how the witness
12 responds to that. Then the ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue, in order for the Chamber
15 to appropriately deal with the matter, is a copy of the indictment
16 brought against the witness, is that available? Because if you want to
17 use your right against self-incrimination, it is very useful to know what
18 you're indicted for.
19 Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, we have it in the
21 system as well. But our Case Manager is, as we speak, preparing copies
22 of the indictment for -- hard copies for -- for the witness. But it is
23 in the e-court system, both the indictment and its translation.
24 And that is exhibit number, from our list - bear with me,
25 Your Honours - that's 2D8.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We we'll ask Madam Registrar to print out
2 copies of the English version of the indictment, not as evidence, but to
3 assist the Chamber in finding its right path in this matter.
4 Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if it assists the Chamber, I have a
6 copy of the indictment. The only mark on it is the date is circled. So
7 if that assists, then there is no objection from --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps we would need three anyhow. And since
9 the printer of Madam Registrar is usually functioning well, even without
10 markings of the OTP, I would expect to receive it within two minutes
12 So, therefore, thank you for the offer.
13 MR. GROOME: The other thing I have in court, Your Honour, is a
14 copy of Article 6 of the European Commission of Human Rights, if the
15 Chamber should --
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you want us to recite it by heart, we'll do so.
17 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I'm just offering it if it assists
18 the Chamber.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.
23 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound
25 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
1 testimony. And Mr. Jordash will now continue his cross-examination.
2 WITNESS: SLOBODAN LAZAREVIC [Resumed]
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lazarevic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And a last request, you know what it is.
6 THE WITNESS: I am aware. Yes, I am aware. I will try my best
7 and I keep saying that and --
8 Good afternoon, Mr. Jordash.
9 MR. JORDASH:
10 Q. Was there a time in the RSK when Babic and Martic were disputing
12 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. Yes.
13 Q. When was that time, please, approximately?
14 A. Very, very -- I can't really give you an approximate time. I
15 wasn't involved in any local politics. I know there was a conflict
16 between them, but --
17 Q. Can you give us a year?
18 A. I can only guess. 1993 or something like that. Or later.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's refrain from guessing and speculations.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Was there a time when Babic lost his position in the RSK?
22 A. Yes. He was replaced by Mr. Martic.
23 Q. What position did he have before being replaced?
24 A. President of the RSK.
25 Q. Do you know when he was replaced?
1 A. Again, I can only guess. I really don't know. I can't remember,
3 Q. Do you know if it was the same time as the disputed -- or the --
4 when Babic and Martic were disputing the elections?
5 A. Probably would be close to the same time, yes. That was the
6 result of the dispute in the end that one was replaced with the other.
7 Q. At what time do you say you first met Mr. Stanisic?
8 A. I think it was the day of declaration of RSK becoming a state.
9 Q. When was that?
10 A. Early 1992.
11 Q. Where was that?
12 A. In Knin.
13 Q. Did you speak to him?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What was the -- what was the occasion?
16 A. After the -- after the -- I won't call it a meeting, but a
17 session of the parliament. There was a joint dinner.
18 Q. When did you, if any -- if at any time, when did you meet him
19 again or see him again?
20 A. I never met him, in the sense that we're in the same room where I
21 was introduced to him or this is who I am and things like that. No. I
22 was more aware of him being there through discussion with other people
23 than I would actually see him myself.
24 Q. Well, you met him -- sorry, you were at the same joint dinner in
25 early 1992?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When, if at any time, did you next see him?
3 A. Possibly the earliest I could remember would be by the end of
5 Q. Where did you see him?
6 A. In vicinity of -- between Topusko and Vojnic, that area.
7 Q. What was he doing?
8 A. Visiting somebody, I guess.
9 Q. Did you find out what he was doing? Did anyone tell you?
10 A. I believe Mr. Pajic mentioned that he was there. That's
11 about it.
12 Q. Mr. Pajic ...
13 A. Toso Pajic.
14 Q. Did he mention the specifics of what Mr. Stanisic was doing at --
15 A. No.
16 Q. -- that location?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you meet him or see him after that?
19 A. Only heard of him being there, but not seeing him, no.
20 Physically, no.
21 Q. So the two times have you seen Mr. Stanisic during 1991 to 1995
22 was these two occasions?
23 A. The ones that I do remember, yes.
24 Q. And on each occasion, you were not informed of the specifics of
25 what he was present to do?
1 A. No. Not of the specifics. However, I did get some details about
2 it, but not -- this is exactly what happened. It is more like hearsay, I
4 Q. Well, what are the details which you heard --
5 A. Well, one was the -- one occasion was that he was delivering a
6 message to Babic from -- from Mr. Milosevic.
7 Q. And what were you told was the message?
8 A. The message that I was told that he came in and delivered the
9 very short message. That's it. You know, You got to pull out from the
10 position that you're in, from the Presidency. And it was told to me like
11 in a joking way kind of -- manner. All he had to do is come in and tell
12 him, You're gone; you're history.
13 Q. Who told you that?
14 A. People around Toso Pajic.
15 Q. Who --
16 A. I remember Djuro Skaljac was there. Toso Pajic was there. My
17 understanding was that it wasn't a formal meeting, that I was getting
18 specifics about a meetings or anything like that, no.
19 Q. Right. It was -- someone told you in a joking kind of way?
20 A. Yeah. I remember being -- said something about -- I don't know
21 how much history of the Balkans, you know, but there's a terminology
22 called "cvjilan gajter [phoen]." In olden times in the South the wanted
23 to get rid of somebody he would send him a message and the message was a
24 piece of silver rope. How do you do it when I tell you, or you hang
1 Q. That was the sum total of what you were told?
2 A. Just about, yes.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you.
4 A. Probably a few other things, but I don't remember anymore.
5 Q. That's fine.
6 A. And I had no reason to remember it.
7 Q. And am I correct that you never attended any meeting between
8 Toso Pajic and Mr. Stanisic?
9 A. Correct, never.
10 Q. You cannot, can you, say with certainty that they did meet in the
11 relevant period, between 1991 and 1995?
12 A. Well, I had been told by Mr. Pajic himself that he has to meet
13 him or he met him yesterday or something along those lines.
14 MR. JORDASH: Just give me a moment, please.
15 Q. How many times do you think Mr. Pajic told you he had met
16 Mr. Stanisic during the period --
17 A. I won't even try to guess.
18 Q. What did Mr. Pajic tell you, if anything, about what Mr. Stanisic
19 had met him to do?
20 A. Absolutely nothing. It was not a subject of any of our meetings,
21 what Mr. Stanisic does or doesn't do, no.
22 Q. So despite seeing Mr. Pajic five times a week, you never learned
23 or understood the nature of these meetings?
24 A. Primarily my job was to do with the army and the UN, not with the
25 police. As far as I was concerned, the police business was the police
2 Q. Did anyone else tell you that they'd seen Mr. Stanisic meeting
3 Mr. Pajic?
4 A. No. But I heard from the other officers at the HQ that
5 Mr. Stanisic was visiting the area, but not who he is visiting or what
6 they were discussing, nothing of that nature.
7 Q. Who told you that?
8 A. I don't remember. I mean, you have a bunch of officers in the
9 morning during their coffee and a cigarette and the people are talking
10 amongst themselves, you overhear, or you might ask a question, or --
11 that's about it.
12 Q. Did they ever explain to you the nature of the meetings supposed
13 to have taken place between Stanisic and Pajic, or Stanisic and anyone --
14 A. No.
15 Q. -- in the locality?
16 A. Not really, no.
17 Q. No.
18 A. Again, I'm trying to stress that my interaction with Mr. Pajic
19 had nothing to do with what the police is doing or what the army is
20 doing; it was more on a personal level. So I didn't go to Mr. Pajic and
21 ask him, Oh did you have a meeting with Mr. Stanisic, what did you guys
22 talk about? It was never like that. Neither did he ever offer to me any
23 details about a meeting that he might or might not have. I know they
24 happened, but what is beyond -- behind that meeting, I have no idea.
25 Q. And yesterday you claimed that Mr. Pajic referred to Mr. Stanisic
1 as Daddy?
2 A. Yeah. Not directly to him on the phone. But when the
3 conversation was over and he put the phone down, he said, That was daddy
4 on the phone.
5 Q. How many times did that happen?
6 A. Again, you're asking for something that I can't really give you
7 an answer. I heard it. How often I heard it? I don't know. I heard
8 it. Same as I heard him calling Milosevic Boss. And if you ask me how
9 many times, I don't know.
10 Q. Could I suggest that that evidence you've given is simply not
11 true, Mr. Lazarevic?
12 A. Mr. Jordash, you can suggest whatever you want, I'm standing
13 behind what I said, and I firmly believe this is how it happened.
14 Q. Now, you have given evidence previously about attending
15 international conferences when Hadzic was President of the RSK?
16 A. True.
17 Q. And am I correct that you attended the conferences as a liaison
19 A. I don't think it was on the list of the delegates I was stated as
20 a liaison officer. Or at least I don't remember.
21 Q. What did you attend as?
22 A. I think they put me down as interpreter at least on two of those
24 Q. But you suggest that you were there as some type of --
25 surveillance agent?
1 A. Yes. For a specific person.
2 Q. And the conferences you say you went to in that capacity were in
3 June of 1993, in Geneva
4 A. I know I was in Geneva
5 Q. July of 1993 in Geneva
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. 20 to 22nd of July 1993 in Vienna
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And later in 1993 in Norway
10 A. Which is supposed to be a kind of secret meeting.
11 Q. And you claim that you would attend -- or the delegates attending
12 that conference from the RSK, including yourself, would attend for
13 briefings in Belgrade
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And who would the briefings be given by?
16 A. The political side. Every delegation that went to those meetings
17 was split into three groups. There was a political side, civilian side,
18 there was a military side. Two groups, yes. Civilian and military.
19 Q. And you attended the briefings yourself, did you?
20 A. No. I was on receiving end after the briefing was completed,
21 because whoever person from the delegation that went to the briefing came
22 back and reported to us. We were all staying in Hotel Mladost in
24 Q. Well, can you recall now who gave the briefing for the first
25 meeting, the 16th of June, 1993, Geneva conference?
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. The 6th of July, 1993, Geneva
3 A. There's only one person, his face is coming up to me, he's in
4 uniform, he's a Colonel. Can't place the name. At least twice.
5 Q. The 20 to 22nd of July, 1993, Vienna conference?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The late 1993 Norway
8 A. No. I -- I remember specific tasks that I was given for Norway
9 because it was kind of strange.
10 Q. What task were you given for Norway?
11 A. To stay as close as possible to Admiral Rakic.
12 Q. But you don't know who gave that instruction?
13 A. No, that came from Zimonja.
14 Q. That came from Zimonja?
15 A. Yes. This was not from the briefing.
16 Q. Who gave the briefing for that conference --
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. -- from Belgrade
19 You claim that after the conference -- sorry let me deal with
20 during the conferences.
21 That instructions would come from Belgrade. Is that correct?
22 A. If there was a need to call Belgrade
23 they would call Belgrade
24 Q. And how do you know this?
25 A. Because we're in the same room.
1 Q. Who's in the same room? Let's deal with --
2 A. Serbian delegation.
3 Q. Let's try and deal with specifics.
4 16th of June 1993, Geneva
5 A. On all occasions, every meetings that we had, during the
6 adjournments of the meeting all delegation would be brought their own
7 quarters, if you like. Our own had a little room with the telephones.
8 And I remember distinctly that we were told that they were secure lines,
9 meaning that we could call Belgrade
10 about. It's not going to be overheard by, I don't know, a third party.
11 That was my understanding any way.
12 Q. Okay. Well, let's deal with that. So who would reassure the RSK
13 delegation that the phones were secure?
14 A. There was a man who always represent himself as a host, and he
15 was a Serbian. And he was Milosevic also, but he wasn't Slobo, I mean,
16 it was a different name.
17 Q. And the RSK officials accepted, without question, that the lines
18 in Vienna
19 from Belgrade
20 A. Have you to form that question a little bit different. First, it
21 is not instructions. It was more of a, What we do next, and something
22 being suggested from the other side how to continue the meeting. Because
23 if we are taking a break in our meetings, that was -- with some reason it
24 came up.
25 Q. But somebody not connected to the RSK delegation would suggest
1 that the phone lines were secure, and the RSK delegation would accept
2 that --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- without question.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And phone up Belgrade
7 sure that no meaningful agreements were reached in these international
8 conferences. Is that your evidence?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And how big was the delegation on each occasion, approximately?
11 A. It was getting bigger every time we went. First time was a very
12 limited number of people. Not any more than ten, really. And don't ask
13 me, please, who attended because I can't remember all the names. There
14 was list of people who attended it. I'm pretty sure of that.
15 Q. And your position at these meeting was what, as an interpreter?
16 A. Well, that was the official, yes.
17 Q. Yes. And nobody in that delegation knew you were working for
19 A. Not that I know of, no.
20 Q. And those on the -- who attended these meetings were the likes of
21 Hadzic and other RSK top officials. Is that correct?
22 A. Can you repeat that, please?
23 Q. These international conferences, it was the likes of Hadzic,
24 senior RSK officials, who were attending?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you were attending as an interpreter?
2 A. Right. And it was physically impossible because the said
3 delegation was clinging to the two groups. The military side of
4 delegation, we discussed problems of military nature with the military
5 part of the delegation by the Croatians. And the civilian part of the
6 delegation, we discussed political issues with the civilian part of the
7 Croatian delegation. So there's no way I could be attending both of
9 Q. No. But why were you left in the room when these phone calls
10 these high-powered phone calls for example between Hadzic and Milosevic
11 or Milosevic's colleagues, why from you left in the room?
12 A. Let me ask you a different question. As a part of the
13 delegation, why would they ask me to leave?
14 Q. Because you were an interpreter?
15 A. Yeah, I was officially part of the --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Would you mind making breaks, thank you.
17 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, yes.
18 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. So you were attending in some other capacity other than as an
22 A. Yes, that's what I believe.
23 Q. Well, what was your role?
24 A. Get as much information as I possible can on the military side
25 that might interest KOS
1 Q. Who gave you that role?
2 A. Colonel Zimonja.
3 Q. And he was, as you told us yesterday, the only person who was
4 aware that you worked for KOS
5 A. Apart probably from the people that served from Belgrade every
6 now and then, please mail some things or ask me some favours.
7 Q. So you were in this room with the likes of Hadzic and Zimonja?
8 A. Zimonja wasn't there.
9 Q. So it's you and other -- you and high officials from --
10 A. All officials [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 Q. -- the RSK. And they all thought you were there as an
12 interpreter because they were not aware of your role within KOS --
13 A. No, I believe that they thought about me being a liaison officer
14 for Sector North.
15 Q. So they thought you were there in the capacity as a liaison
17 A. You're asking me to guess what they think? I can't do that.
18 Q. Well, you were there in an international conference with the
19 president of the RSK. Did the president not understand why you were
21 A. I have no idea whether he was -- needed to understand when asked
22 the question.
23 I was -- let me try to clarify this, make it more simple, if I
24 can. There is a delegation and all the people are assigned what they are
25 doing there, right? So he is a minister for energy; this guy is either
1 this or that. Now the only thing I could become a party of the
2 delegation would be as something.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. And they decided I'm going to be as an interpreter.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. But the fact of the matter is I have never been used as an
7 interpreter during the meetings.
8 Q. Let me just pause you there then. So everyone knew you were not
9 an interpreter?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me pause you there as well, yes.
11 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
12 Q. Everyone at that -- those delegations whether Dusan Rakic, the
13 minister of defence, or Hadzic was aware that were not interpreting. Is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, that was the situation, yes.
16 Q. Right. So, presumably, they had some understanding of why you
17 remained in the delegation?
18 A. Again it would be unacceptable to take a part of the delegation
19 and set them out of the room because somebody wants to talk to somebody
20 else. That's what you think? No, it wasn't.
21 Q. No -- they -- they -- Rakic, Hadzic, and so on, were unaware that
22 you were a member of KOS
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So what did they think you were doing in the room?
25 A. I have no idea. Why don't you ask them?
1 Q. So --
2 A. What were they thinking? How can I possibly even guess what
3 they're thinking?
4 Q. So you sat in the room, you didn't have discussions with them,
5 which would indicate your role, and, as far as you're concerned, you
6 don't know what they thought you were doing there.
7 A. They were all seniors to me in every respect.
8 Q. Okay. I think we can leave it there. Thank you, Mr. Lazarevic.
9 And could I suggest to you that at no stage did you witness any
10 telephone calls to Mr. Stanisic during these delegations.
11 A. I never even said that I was present while the members of
12 delegations were talking to Stanisic. I said they were talking to
14 Q. So you're confident that you never heard any of the delegation
15 call up Mr. Stanisic during these international conferences?
16 A. You mean like I'm sitting there, somebody is picking up the phone
17 and saying, Hey, Mr. Stanisic, how are you? I'm calling you from Norway
18 That kind of call?
19 Q. No, a call to tell him what was going on, to receive
20 instructions, debriefing, whatever.
21 A. Debriefing, definitely not. It wasn't done in Norway
22 Q. So the evidence you gave in the Milosevic trial, 12411 -- 12410,
23 I beg your pardon, that, on one occasion, Jovica Stanisic was contacted
24 and you said on being -- you believed that on being in the room when
25 those calls were placed - and that's line 16 to line 20 - was nothing
1 less than a lie, was it?
2 A. I don't quite understand your question right now.
3 Q. Well, in the Milosevic trial when asked:
4 "Do you know if, on this occasion," referring to the Norway
5 "Jovica Stanisic was contacted by anyone?"
6 You answered:
7 "I believe that is the case.
8 "Q. And you believe that based on what.
9 "A. On being in the room when those calls were placed."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, which is --
12 A. That's right -- okay. As I said, there were different members of
13 delegation there. And each had a specific task to perform during the
14 meetings. And it always depends who's making the call. Do I make sense?
15 Q. Not to me. Perhaps it's me. Please try again.
16 A. Okay.
17 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, excuse me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
19 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Perhaps the actual page could be shown to the
20 witness so that he could see the whole context of the conversation.
21 MR. JORDASH: Sure.
22 Q. Sorry, I didn't mean to take advantage, Mr. Lazarevic.
23 A. Oh, yes you are.
24 Q. I think you should --
25 A. I give you a lot of credit.
1 Q. I think you should have a look at the page.
2 A. Thank you.
3 MR. JORDASH: Could we call up, please, 12410 of the --
4 JUDGE ORIE: That is the Milosevic --
5 MR. JORDASH: Yes, Your Honour [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Which is admitted under seal. Nevertheless, if it
7 is a page which is public on the Internet and not part of the private
8 session, there should be no major objection against it even being shown
9 to the public.
10 MR. JORDASH: It is in open session, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't get anything from this document.
12 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps -- actually, the page should be 12410. And
13 perhaps just so the witness gets some context, we can go back to 12409.
14 And this isn't the page, I don't think. No, it's not the page.
15 Can we go to 12409, please. That is the page.
16 Q. If can you start reading, Mr. Lazarevic, at line 16.
17 A. Yes. What is the question?
18 Q. Just read that page and --
19 A. The whole page, from 1 to 16?
20 Q. From 16 to the bottom, and then go to 12410. Please indicate
21 when you have finished 12409.
22 A. Okay. Waiting for the second page.
23 MR. JORDASH: Okay. 12410, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness sees the same as I do, he can't have
25 read until the bottom of the page because it doesn't appear on the
2 So let's --
3 Mr. Lazarevic --
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- I give you a couple of extra lines to read,
6 16 until the end.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 MR. JORDASH: Next, please.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 MR. JORDASH:
12 Q. You suggested in the Milosevic trial, although you didn't give
13 any details, that a call had been made to Stanisic -- Mr. Stanisic during
14 the Norway
15 So I'm just trying to clarify --
16 A. That it wasn't or it was made? Which one are you trying to
18 Q. Well, that is a matter for you to clarify, Mr. Lazarevic?
19 A. I said that I believe that is the case. Doesn't say that I
20 definitely state that is the case.
21 Q. Okay. If that's your answer, we can move on. Thank you.
22 Let me take you to the final subject I'd like to deal with, which
23 is the issue of Pauk.
24 Were you aware, Mr. Witness, of a declaration signed --
25 A. May I interrupt you for a second. This is a very annoying habit
1 you have: Either you call me Mr. Lazarevic or call me Mr. Witness all
2 the way through, please.
3 Q. I beg your pardon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
7 Yes, I do not see the real problem. Sometimes Mr. Jordash
8 addresses you as Mr. Witness or sometimes he may address you as
9 Mr. Lazarevic. I do not see any inappropriateness in not always
10 addressing you exactly in the same way. I can imagine myself doing it as
11 well, as a matter of fact, without any bad intentions.
12 Therefore, Mr. Jordash, you may proceed. And if you wish to meet
13 what is apparently experienced as unpleasant by the witness, you may
14 choose to do so.
15 MR. JORDASH: I shall. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, let me deal with Pauk.
17 Were you aware of a declaration signed by --
18 [French on English Channel]
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. Were you aware of a declaration signed by Fikret Abdic in
22 late 1993?
23 A. Absolutely not.
24 Q. Let me try to see if you might remember something to do with it.
25 That the declaration was a 12-point declaration recognising the
1 autonomous region of western Bosnia
2 A. No, never heard of it.
3 Q. Let me ask you this then: Have you -- did you hear, in the
4 summer of 1994, of approximately 80.000 refugees fleeing from Bosnia
5 the RSK, into the region of Topusko, Muslims, refugees?
6 A. From Velika Kladusa, yes.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Yes, I'm aware of the situation.
9 Q. So --
10 A. I mean, I know it happened.
11 Q. Yeah. At the time of Pauk, the Operation Pauk, there was around
12 8.000 [sic] Muslim refugees who were camping out in the RSK, hoping to
13 return home at some point; is that correct?
14 A. Actually, they came to no man's land between the Serbian side and
15 Croatian side.
16 Q. And Fikret Abdic was trying to return to the western Bosnia
17 take the refugees back with him.
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. You have no idea about that?
20 A. No. Oh, I know about the presence of the refugees, if that's
21 what you're asking me. But I don't know about Fikret Abdic going and
22 pleading with them to come back. That I don't know.
23 Q. Were you aware that the refugees wanted to return home?
24 A. No, I haven't spoken to any of them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
1 Please continue.
2 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
3 Q. Wasn't --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lazarevic, I -- you had finished your last
5 answer when you said "No, I haven't spoken to any of them" when I
6 interrupted you?
7 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please put your next question, Mr. Jordash.
9 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
10 Q. The 21st Corps and the 39th Corps and the 15th Corps were
11 fighting within the Pauk Command; is that correct?
12 A. To my knowledge, yes.
13 Q. Wasn't one of the purposes that they were trying to achieve was
14 the return of Fikret Abdic to western Bosnia?
15 A. I don't know the real reasons for it. I did find it rather
16 strange that the Serbs were fighting the Muslims for the Muslims. That I
17 did find strange.
18 Q. So it's your evidence, and then if you really don't know, then
19 I'll leave it for the Court to decide, but you really don't have any
20 evidence to give about the refugees and their intentions during 1994 and
22 A. 1994 and end 1995? I know of one instance.
23 Q. I'm talking about November 1994 until Operation Storm.
24 Was there an effort by the corps I have just mentioned to protect
25 the refugees?
1 A. At the very end, yes, I am aware of that. But their all pulling
2 out of western Bosnia
3 Q. Okay. Well --
4 A. This is the only other time that I knew about the refugees.
5 Q. Let me then move to a slightly different subject.
6 Petrova Gora, where the Serbian MUP camped out, was a high-tech
7 facility, wasn't it?
8 A. That's what I was led to believe, yes.
9 Q. And it was high-tech because it had high-powered surveillance
10 equipment, listening devices, to enable the MUP to listen in to various
11 electronic communications.
12 A. I always thought it was merely to do with the telephone
14 Q. Right.
15 A. They can click into somebody's conversation to listen.
16 Q. Right. It was this -- the particular location where the Serbian
17 MUP was was primarily a surveillance location, wasn't it?
18 A. Before the conflict?
19 Q. When the Serbian MUP was there.
20 A. I don't know what they used it for, but they used it as a HQ.
21 Q. Was it on a mountain?
22 A. Not really a mountainous region. Let's say it was on a high
24 Q. Right. A high hill with high-tech listening devices?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And it was how many kilometres away from Bosnia
2 A. Oh, not even a kilometre.
3 Q. And that location where the Serbian MUP camped out was a
4 different location to the rest of Pauk, wasn't it?
5 A. Can you just repeat the question slowly this time, because I'm
6 trying to distinguish whether you asked me whether there were two
7 commands or not.
8 Q. The formations that you have told the Court were taking part in
9 Pauk, including the Serbian MUP, as you would have it, were divided in
10 locations. The Serbian MUP at Petrova Gora, and the rest of the
11 Pauk Command within Bosnia
12 A. Including Serbian MUP in Bosnia
13 Q. Who was in Bosnia
14 Serbian MUP?
15 A. Rajko Bozovic.
16 Q. Well, I was going to get to that. So Bozovic had his HQ in
18 A. In Kladusa itself.
19 Q. Yeah. Legija had HQ --
20 A. Yes, but I don't know whether he was a member of the MUP Serbia
21 or who he was a member of, but he was there.
22 Q. Legija who you're not sure was a member of MUP?
23 A. My understanding was that he was a member of this special unit
24 that came from Serbia
25 Q. You don't know?
1 A. Positively? Yes, I know he was a member of MUP. Why?
2 Q. Because you just said that you're not sure.
3 A. Nowadays, I can't be sure of anything, the way you are asking me
4 the questions. So if I go back and think, yes, Ulemek was in charge of
5 special unit by the MUP Serbia police, had their own camping grounds
6 somewhere, I don't know, Vojvodina, somewhere else, I don't know. There.
7 And his involvement later on in happenings in Serbia suggested that he is
8 a member of MUP.
9 Q. Sorry, could you repeat last sentence? And his what later on?
10 What did you say?
11 A. Involvement in things that happened in Serbia.
12 Q. Later on?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Such as?
15 A. Sorry.
16 Q. Such as? What happened later on that suggested his involvement
17 in Pauk?
18 A. Haven't you followed these trial?
19 Q. Well, I'm asking you.
20 A. Okay. Well, I know from a newspaper. He was involved in the
21 killing of President Djindjic and some other people there as well.
22 Q. So basically, from what you've just said to us, you didn't know
23 that he was a member of the MUP, but due to events which occurred later
24 as, for example the killing of President Djindjic, you then put two and
25 two together and --
1 A. No, I knew he was a member of MUP. I couldn't just allocate him;
2 I couldn't put him in a set or specific role there.
3 Q. How did you know he was a member of the MUP?
4 A. By the insignia, they are the same.
5 Q. Sorry?
6 A. The insignia on the uniform.
7 Q. Was Frenki Simatovic based at Petrova Gora?
8 A. Yes, I was led to believe so.
9 Q. That was his HQ?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Bozovic and Legija had an HQ with who?
12 A. In Bosnia
13 Q. With who?
14 A. With Pauk.
15 Q. And who was there in Pauk?
16 A. In charge was General Novakovic, Mile.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. You had a Chief of Staff who was Colonel Bulat.
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. Those are the people that I met. And what they told me is the HQ
21 of the Pauk, which was about 200 yards as you get across, it was in a
22 simple house. That's where they were.
23 Q. Right.
24 A. Further down the road when you go into Kladusa, you come to -- I
25 don't know how to translate it, Robna Kuca. It's like supermarket. And
1 on the first floor there was an office where Mr. Bozovic had his HQ. I'd
2 say "operativni brod."
3 THE INTERPRETER: Operational area.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. Bozovic and Legija were based in this HQ you've just told us
6 about and they had men with them in that HQ?
7 A. Yeah, I think so, yes.
8 Q. And who was with Frenki Simatovic in Petrova Gora?
9 A. I don't know. I never got to get in there.
10 Q. Right. So you don't actually have any evidence concerning
11 Frenki Simatovic or Bozovic and their relation to each other, or do you?
12 A. Do I what?
13 Q. Do you have any evidence concerning their relationship --
14 A. What do you consider evidence? I don't quite follow what you're
15 trying me --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap because
17 of the interpretation. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
19 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, that's my fault.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's both your faults.
21 MR. JORDASH: It won't happen again.
22 THE WITNESS: Of course, it will.
23 MR. JORDASH: Not from me it won't.
24 Q. You saw Mr. Bozovic two or three times a month at the HQ of the
25 21st Corps?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You never saw him at Petrova Gora?
3 A. Never been to Petrova Gora when they took over.
4 Q. Right. You never saw Simatovic, Mr. Simatovic giving --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry. Just take a breath after every answer. I
6 have seen situations where other members of the team would play some of
7 the role which I would be forced to play if you continue this way. That
8 is to either kick you or to pull your legs or whatever, pull your arms.
9 I'm really relying on the inventivity of the team as a whole.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
12 Q. You didn't see Mr. Simatovic giving orders to either Mr. Bozovic
13 or Legija, did you?
14 A. In person? No.
15 Q. No. Thank you. The men that you say belonged to Arkan, did you
16 ever see Arkan give orders to them at Pauk?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You never saw Mr. Stanisic giving orders to Mr. Simatovic at
19 Petrova Gora?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And you never saw Mr. Simatovic reporting to Mr. Stanisic at
22 Petrova Gora?
23 A. No.
24 Q. The men you identified as belonging to Arkan were clearly
25 separate to the men that you suggest belonged to the Serbian MUP. They
1 were a different formation, were they not?
2 A. I can't say that. All I know they were on the same ground
3 fighting the same -- fighting on the same side. But if you're suggesting
4 that Arkan came there by himself, I doubt very much.
5 Q. Are you suggesting that you couldn't identify the difference
6 between the men you say belonged to Arkan and the men you say belonged to
7 the Serbian MUP?
8 A. Of course you can tell the difference. I think the other guys
9 had a little tiger head on their shoulders.
10 Q. The only place you saw the men who were with Mr. Simatovic on a
11 regular basis was Petrova Gora, wasn't it?
12 A. No. I keep saying that I never went to Petrova Gora.
13 Q. Let me ask to you turn to your previous statement again. Perhaps
14 this is the quickest way to do this.
15 MR. JORDASH: Please, could we have on the screen the witness's
16 1999 statement, 0205-3036.
17 Q. Let's -- before I ask you --
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, could we just make sure it's not being
19 broadcast. Excuse me, please.
20 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I beg your pardon. Thank you.
21 Q. Before, Mr. Witness, we turn to that statement, could you please
22 describe the insignia you say that Arkan's Men were wearing in a little
23 more detail?
24 A. If I remember it correctly, they had a tiger's head with open
1 Q. What colour was the tiger?
2 A. Orange
3 Q. And the uniform? Was there a uniform?
4 A. You're asking me the things that happened, like, 15 years ago of
5 people I met maybe twice.
6 Q. Was it a uniform --
7 A. It looked --
8 JUDGE ORIE: No.
9 MR. JORDASH:
10 Q. Was the uniform worn by Arkan's Men the same as the uniform worn
11 by the Serbian -- the men you say were part of the Serbian MUP?
12 A. Well, let me put it this way: They were not the JNA uniforms.
13 They looked to me like a NATO uniform. And if you ask whether there was
14 any colour distinction between the uniform, no, there was not.
15 Q. Okay. Let's turn to your statement.
16 MR. JORDASH: Page 25 of the English version, please, and the
17 paragraph I'm looking for in the B/C/S starts with: "Altogether, Arkan
18 had about 100 men at Petrova Gora ..."
19 Can we turn to that in the B/C/S, please. Can I be helped out?
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. JORDASH: It's -- it should be around the page 20 -- thank
22 you, page 21.
23 Q. Please, Mr. Witness, find the: "Altogether Arkan had about 100
24 men at Petrova Gora ..."
25 Do you see that?
1 A. That's not on the B/C/S version. It's a different page.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. JORDASH: Page 23. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, these are matters which should be well
5 prepared. It's not that difficult. I even can do it. So would you
6 please take care next time that we're not loosing time on this.
7 MR. JORDASH: Certainly. Sorry.
8 Q. Can you see that paragraph, Mr. Lazarevic?
9 A. That he had around 100 men.
10 Q. Yeah.
11 A. All right. I see it.
12 Q. And I'm looking for the line about four lines down:
13 "Arkan's troops all wore the same uniform with -- but with no
14 obvious rank insignia."
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Did you tell the Prosecution that at the time, that they had no
17 rank insignia?
18 A. I probably did. I don't remember. This is a minor detail.
19 Q. Okay. Let's go further down to the next paragraph where it says:
20 "I never saw any of Stamatovic getting supplies so I don't know
21 if they were supplied from elsewhere or if the Arkanovici also collected
22 their supplies as well."
23 Do you see that?
24 A. I don't. But I'm listening to you, basically the truth, yes.
25 Q. Well, have a look at the paragraph, please.
1 Do you see that -- sorry.
2 Do you see where it says:
3 "In fact the only place I ever saw the special police with
4 regularity in the RSK was at Petrova Gora."
5 A. Yes. And ...
6 Q. Is that what you told the Prosecution at the time?
7 A. Well, this Petrova Gora -- basically this sentence does not
8 necessarily mean a location. It means the area. It's the same name. If
9 I saw you in Petrova Gora doesn't mean I see you at the HQ in
10 Petrova Gora. I saw you in Petrova Gora. It's a large national park.
11 And then have you have your own security perimeter around the HQ, which I
12 never entered.
13 Q. Okay. But that national park, again, was different to the HQ in
15 A. Yeah. Part of it was in Bosnia
16 Q. No. The appointment I'm making is that seeing Stamatovic's men
17 in the park at Petrova Gora was different -- a different location to the
18 HQ Pauk in Bosnia
19 A. Yeah, different location, yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, you never saw Mr. Simatovic's men socialise with
21 Arkan's, did you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And, in fact, they had a strained relationship, as you saw it,
24 didn't they?
25 A. That was just my judgement. I -- you have to understand, I did
1 not spend days on days just watching what they are doing on location. I
2 hardly ever saw them there.
3 Q. In the short time that you were able to observe the two groups,
4 you observed they had a strained relationship, because Arkan's Men had a
5 reputation of being thieves and murders.
6 A. That's the general opinion, yes.
7 Q. That was your opinion, wasn't it?
8 A. That's a general opinion.
9 Q. Was that your opinion?
10 A. Probably mine. I still think that today.
11 Q. And in contrast to that, Stamatovic's police unit at Petrova Gora
12 regarded themselves as upright policemen?
13 A. Again, I have never been at Petrova Gora HQ.
14 Q. It was your view that they regarded themselves --
15 A. The units of the special police from Serbia I thought to be
16 absolutely correct in their behaviour and demeanour, that's what I said.
17 Q. Their behaviour --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 THE WITNESS: If I might add: In all that time, the only problem
20 that I did have was with the members of Arkan's unit and not with the
21 members of the Mr. Simatovic's unit.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. And the -- Simatovic's men viewed Arkan's Men as common
24 criminals. That was the view --
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. That was it's view you reached, wasn't it?
2 A. I'm sorry?
3 Q. That was the view you reached, from what you observed?
4 A. I don't quite -- I'm trying to see what you said.
5 Oh I reached ...
6 Q. Did you reach that view?
7 A. No, I really don't know what is the relationship between two
8 different units on the ground. All I can vouch is to what the general
9 opinion is about Arkan's men and what I have find out in my dealings with
10 the MUP Serbia or with the Arkan men. And the problems that did I have
11 with the Arkan's men not with the MUP of Serbia.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I would just like to point out that
13 counsel puts a lot of questions that ask the witness to express what
14 other people thought and what other people believed. And don't think the
15 witness is in a position, necessarily, to know the answer to that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, although he seems not to have a hesitation to
17 tell us what the general opinion was, et cetera.
18 So, therefore, it's not without a reason, perhaps, that
19 Mr. Jordash elicits this.
20 I am, at the same time, Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the clock.
21 Usually we have a break after 75 minutes. We are beyond that. And since
22 you indicated yesterday that you would need an hour, I thought you might
23 want to finish that hour in the next three minutes.
24 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I can finish now. That's the end of
25 my questions.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Lazarevic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
3 We'll first have a break. But before taking that break, I would
4 already ask Madam Usher to escort Mr. Lazarevic out of the courtroom.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: An issue was raised about putting questions to the
7 witness about a case which apparently is pending against him in Serbia
8 What exactly, in what kind of detail would you like to go, and in
9 order to establish what, Mr. Bakrac, so that we have a better view on the
11 I heard that there were many documents related to this, if I well
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. And I do not
14 intend to use all of those documents, as I've already told my learned
15 friend, Mr. Groome. In our country, there -- proceedings have a concern
16 structure. First the police conducts an investigation. Then submits a
17 criminal report. Then a prosecutor would submit a request for
18 proceedings. And then -- to the investigating judge, and then the
19 investigating judge, once he has completed his investigation, would
20 forward it to the prosecutor who would then issue an indictment.
21 So this criminal file is rather large, and I just wanted to pick
22 certain documents from each part in this whole procedure and present it
23 to the witness. The decision on his arrest, an APB that was issued, and
24 a brief description on his involvement in fraud, whereby he defrauded
25 some 45 individuals and two companies in Serbia.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And what do you intend to establish through this?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I am trying to
3 assist the Trial Chamber in assessing the credibility of this witness and
4 his testimony.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For purposes of procedure, you have provided
6 the Chamber with a copy of the -- copy of the indictment. I, meanwhile,
7 was able to read that.
8 What is there else -- apart from asking the witness can either
9 say, Of course, that's what I did. First of all, I would like to find
10 out whether he is aware of the proceedings. I do not know if there's any
11 knowledge among the parties whether he is aware of being indicted in 2006
12 for this matter. That's --
13 Then I -- to put to the witness, what could he say? I mean, the
14 mere fact that a court apparently based on the testimony of witnesses
15 considers there's sufficient reason to indict him is at least a relevant
16 element, that he may not be the honest citizen you would expect a citizen
17 to be. But to go into any further details, where we get stuck is that
18 this Chamber cannot form an opinion on any such matter, apart from
19 assuming that, if there's evidence, if there's detailed information about
20 who are the parties who apparently have paid him, reading in this, that
21 it should seriously keep in mind that Mr. Lazarevic may well be culpable
22 of such fraud, which would then, of course, have to be considered. But
23 to go in any further detail, I wonder what the Chamber could do with
25 We can't try Mr. Lazarevic here. We don't have the evidence
1 before us. What we have before us is that the Court considered the
2 evidence sufficient to indict Mr. Lazarevic which is a clear signal that
3 it's not just a loose allegation, as it was in the decision underlying
4 the -- as it was in the factual situation underlying the decision in the
5 Krajisnik Chamber. That it was, of course, quite a bit different from
6 what we find in Perisic, in relation to Mr. Sacirbey.
7 But what else do you want to establish? I mean, this Chamber is
8 not assisted by going to go a bit of here and get a bit of there of that
9 case. The decision as such, having read it, seems to be that there are
10 serious reasons to believe that Mr. Lazarevic - serious enough to make
11 him stand trial - serious reasons to believe that he may have been
12 involved in fraud for the amounts we find in this document.
13 What else would you like to establish?
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, on
15 page 30, and I believe that's page 33 in English, where he states:
16 "In the end, in January of 1995" --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Page?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm referring to his statement.
19 In B/C/S, that's page 30; and in English, I believe it is
20 page 33.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And we are now looking at?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We are looking at his statement
23 of 1999.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Which is not in evidence, Mr. Bakrac.
25 So don't ask us to look at anything which is not before us yet.
1 But tell me what he states there, and then I'll further listen to
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It states there, Your Honour, his
5 "In the end, in January 1999, I fled the SRY."
6 Now, if you take a look at that time-period, the fraud that he
7 committed was in the period between September and December 1998. And in
8 January 1999, as he himself states, he fled the SRY, FRY, and then from
9 January, for six months, he had this exchange with the Prosecutors.
10 I will not insist on many of the facts. I will just point out
11 the indictment to him, ask him about it. They're people mentioned there,
12 in the indictment, the contract numbers with these people that he
13 actually entered into. And I will just ask him whether he actually
14 entered into a contract with these individuals. That would be
16 And in the Milosevic case when he was confronted with this when
17 he was asked whether he actually engaged in fraud in 1998, he said that
18 he didn't but added that he had left Serbia a very comfortable life,
19 where he had a Porsche and a Mercedes vehicle, and left the country for
20 political reasons. So I believe this is very relevant.
21 And please trust me, I will not burden you with all of the
22 documents that have I entered into the e-court but will just restrict my
23 questions to a few documents just do show the MO of this witness which
24 can perhaps be helpful for determining what kinds of person this witness
25 is and his character.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you assist me in giving me the date and
2 the page numbers in the Milosevic so that I can re-read them during the
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, gladly.
5 Just bear with me a moment, please.
6 That's 12683 and 12684. This was in the re-examination by my
7 learned friend Groome when he was asked whether he had actually been
8 given some money for cooperation or gained any benefits from it. Then he
9 said that he had had a much better life in Belgrade, and so on.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking for the page references and date
11 references. I received the page, not yet the date. Is that 29th,
12 30th, or 31st.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The 31st, Your Honours.
14 I apologise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The 31st of October, 2002
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Stanisic, I do not feel very comfortable in having made this
19 session longer than I intended to do. Apologies for that.
20 We'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 --- On resuming at 4.26 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lazarevic, it will be Mr. Bakrac who will now
25 cross-examine you. He is also going to make breaks, although it's easier
1 because he will speak his own language and you're speaking -- well, I do
2 not know whether I should say your own language, whether you consider
3 English your own language or not. But, again, try to slow down and make
4 those breaks.
5 Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
6 Mr. Bakrac, by the way, is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.
10 May I just take this opportunity to advise the Chamber that for
11 the first time today we have our new Case Manager, in the courtroom.
12 Mr. Vulic Bozidar.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
14 Q. Sir, could you please tell me what you would prefer me to address
15 with you? Mr. Lazarevic or Mr. Witness?
16 A. Well, I have been warned by His Honour, Judge Orie. It really
17 makes no difference, so go ahead.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It is very kind what Mr. Bakrac does.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I was going to suggest that you provide your answers in English
23 so that we may avoid the overlapping, so I will now begin.
24 Would you please take a look at your statement provided to the
25 Office of the Prosecutor between January 1st and July 1st, 1999.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please pull up page 1 of this
2 statement, both in English and in the B/C/S version.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And not to be shown to the public.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Sir, Mr. Witness, I will put my question to you while we wait for
7 the statement to come up on the monitor, and then you will actually be
8 able to actually see it and read it.
9 You said that you were born in 1947 and that in 1956 you moved to
11 Sarajevo University
12 A. Yes. Well, it's not really Sarajevo University
13 philosophy. Okay.
14 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, one more thing: I would appeal to you - please
15 don't misunderstand me - but I would like to tell you that our time is
16 restricted, so, please, just restrict your answers to the questions that
17 I pose to you.
18 Now, your father was employed by the so-called UDBA; correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And he was the one who actually introduced you to Mr. Zimonja,
21 who worked for KOS
22 army; correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. My question is this: Yesterday you tried to describe, in a cute
25 sort of way, the level of frictions and -- frictions between these two
2 You said this could be compared to a football match between
3 Partizan and the Red Star one of them being, in this case the -- the army
4 would be the UDBA and the Red Star -- the army would be Crvena Zvezda and
5 the other one would be the Partizan.
6 Now tell me, please --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the last part
8 of his question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
10 question, Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The last portion of my question related to this: How come that
13 your father, who was an UDBA employee, did not actually introduce you to
14 someone from UDBA so that you could work for them, but, rather, he
15 introduced you for -- with someone or to someone from the army? And you
16 said yesterday that there were frictions between these two services.
17 A. I can't explain that. Why -- what was the decision behind it,
18 but, you know, that's how it happened.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 If I understood the next paragraph from your statement correctly,
21 you said, in paragraph 2 on page 1, in the very first line:
22 "The first task that Zimonja gave me was to infiltrate student
23 groups at Sarajevo University
24 He also tasked me with keeping an eye on foreigners in Sarajevo. This
25 was supposed to be accomplished by my arranging chance meetings with
2 Is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Which foreigners in Sarajevo
5 that? Did you mean the foreign students or some other foreigners?
6 A. No, the other foreigners, not students.
7 Q. Could you provide an example. In 1968, in Sarajevo, what
8 foreigners were there and what kind of positions were they in?
9 A. A lot of eastern Germans, if I remember correctly. There were a
10 few French, a few Brits. And the positions, I don't know, it was just to
11 kind of arrange a chance meeting with them, help them out, try to get
12 close to them.
13 Q. But you being an intelligence officer who is supposed to approach
14 them and assist them, offer your assistance, you were supposed to also
15 know what kind of job or what kind of work these people were doing;
17 A. We're talking about the very, very early beginning of my career
18 as an intelligence officer, so I don't think I was ever informed about a
19 particular -- about a certain -- I was never given a task of an
20 individual that I'm going to follow that person, that he does that and
21 that and we want to know more about him. It was just establishing the
22 contact and we see how we go from there.
23 Q. And if I understood your answer correctly, since you didn't know
24 anything else about them, you would just establish contact with them,
25 say, Hello, I'm so-and-so, and what's your name and -- so what kind of
1 report would you then send?
2 A. Well, it didn't go exactly like that. It would be more a
3 situation which obviously the foreigner needed some assistance, whether
4 it's in a store buying a souvenir or trying to buy an ice-cream, he can't
5 explain; things like that. And the initial report? There wouldn't be
6 any unless the situation developed in that direction that it needed a
8 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you would send the report to
9 Zimonja, saying a German bought an ice-cream cone in an ice-cream shop;
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please put serious questions to the
12 witness, Mr. Bakrac. Until now, none of the questions the Chamber was
13 able to detect what the relevance was. If you would first put the
14 question -- questions to the witness where it is clear to the Chamber
15 what the relevance is, and if there is then any time left, you can ask
16 questions about ice-creams.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, in 1969, you said you served in the military, the
20 compulsory military service for 18 months, in Kraljevo; is that correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you also say I was assigned -- I had contact with KOS
23 officers at the barracks where I was posted, but they never asked me to
24 do any work on behalf of KOS
1 A. The only thing they asked me at the time was to supply all the
2 name and addresses of people that are living overseas.
3 Q. So in 1969, while you were serving in the army, you were asked to
4 provide addresses of people who lived abroad? Which people? Soldiers?
5 Which people living abroad?
6 A. People that I knew.
7 Q. Very well. And already then, even before you went to serve your
8 military service, you had established contact with Mr. Nikola Zimonja;
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. All right then. Now I would like to show you an exhibit.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up P265, or,
13 rather, 65 ter document 265.
14 MS. MARCUS: Excuse me, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. MARCUS: Although we did receive about 55 documents from the
17 Defence, unless I'm mistaken, I do not think that 65 ter 265 was on that
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it was on
21 the list that the Prosecutor was going to use during their examination,
22 and that is the reason why I did not put it on my list. It is true that,
23 at the last moment, the Prosecutor actually removed six of the documents
24 from their list, but I don't think this one was among them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, I find on the list of the
1 Prosecution and -- those exhibited, 262 and 266.
2 Any further problems in dealing with the document? If it was
3 once on your list, then I take it that you have looked at it.
4 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours, we have no problem with the
5 Defence counsel using it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then you could even have refrained from
7 making this observation if it previously was on your list, Ms. Marcus.
8 Something to think over for the next time.
9 Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this military ID? It says it's a
12 duplicate but I see it bears no photo or signature.
13 Is this perhaps one of the documents that you handed over to the
14 Office of the Prosecutor?
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page, please,
16 where we can see all the information.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the document that I gave, yes.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Very well. Mr. Lazarevic, my first question is the following:
20 Is it common for a document of this type to be left without a photograph
21 and without the signature and not to bear a stamp over the -- the photo?
22 A. That I wouldn't know. That's how it was given to me.
23 Q. Fair enough, sir. Now, Mr. Lazarevic, could you take a look now
24 at page 7.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The next page in e-court, please.
1 Could we have the next page on the screens, please.
2 Q. It says here, Mr. Lazarevic, actually it shows the dates when you
3 actually were in the army serving; correct?
4 A. 1966 to 1969? I can't see it really, I'm sorry.
5 Q. Yes. Well, it says from the 29th of September, 1966, to
6 12 February 1968
7 You've just told us that in 1968 you met Mr. Zimonja and that you
8 went to serve your compulsory military service in 1969.
9 Now tell me, which of the two is true? Is this document
10 falsified, or was what you said true and this document counterfeit, or is
11 it possible that you met Mr. Zimonja before 1966, when you were 17?
12 A. No. This is a correct date which is in Vojnak Uzice [phoen],
13 which is a duplicate. So that is correct. So the 1968 I did met
14 Zimonja -- well, I actually finished my military service before 1968, end
15 of the 1968. 1966 to 1968.
16 Q. How, then, was it possible that you would be assigned tasks from
18 then you went to serve in the military, and then you were assigned a task
19 to actually monitor the movement of foreigners. But now you told us that
20 you met Zimonja after you've completed your military service.
21 So which of the two is actually true?
22 A. The truth is that I have done my military service but I, for some
23 reason, misjudged the year that I was giving to the Prosecution. But
24 this is a genuine document.
25 Q. Well, the problem is not in the years, Mr. Lazarevic, but,
1 rather, in your activities. There is no issue here with the years. You
2 said that first you met Zimonja, then you went to serve in the army, and
3 then you were given some tasks by KOS to provide some names of some
4 foreigners. And now, five minutes later, you're telling us, No, I
5 actually met Zimonja after I served in the army.
6 So you actually concocted this whole story that you were given a
7 task to provide names of foreigners while you were serving in the army.
9 A. No, it is not correct. This is just a simple genuine mistake
10 about give the date which happens, I don't know, some 30 years ago.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lazarevic, a mistake in a date is that you say
12 whether it was in 1968 or 1967. However, what you did first and what you
13 did after that is a matter of sequence of events. Therefore, it's more
14 than just a mistake on a date.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will no
17 longer insist on this.
18 Q. Witness, after you completed military service, you returned to
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. What kind of work did you do there?
23 A. I don't remember. Some clerical job, I don't know.
24 Q. Did you send reports to Nikola Zimonja at the time?
25 A. No. If I had nothing to send, I didn't send anything.
1 Q. And then out of the blue, according to your statement, on page 1,
2 you say:
3 "The first big assignment I got was to plant some films on a
4 German tourist who was camping on the coast."
5 So all of a sudden Zimonja came up with these tapes and he said,
6 Plant them on a German tourist who was camping on the coast.
7 Is that true? That's what it says in your statement.
8 A. It is true, but I wouldn't call it suddenly.
9 Q. Well, you said that you worked at Nama department store, that you
10 hadn't been given any task or assignment, that you were trying again to
11 arrange some chance meetings with foreigners who were staying at
12 hotel Evropa, and you tried to establish contact with them in the
13 neighbourhood of this hotel. We've already discussed this.
14 And then you said:
15 "The first big assignment was ..."
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, are you quoting from a statement which
17 is not in evidence. I'd like to see that on the screen so to be able to
18 follow what you're putting to the witness.
19 Could we please have the statement, not to be shown to the
20 public, but at least in e-court on the screen.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I have
22 this nagging fear that I will inadvertently disclose something to the
24 But could we see, then, page 1 of the statement. It is the last
25 paragraph on page 1 -- or, rather, page 2 in English.
1 Q. There, now you can see it in English. And since you are giving
2 your answers in English, now everyone will be able to follow what we're
4 So you said:
5 "The first big assignment I got was to plant some films on a
6 German tourist who was camping on coast. I received the the films from
7 Zimonja and then I travelled to the island of Rab
9 A. Correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
11 Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now do you know what -- what kind of footage it was? What was
14 depicted in those films?
15 A. I have no idea.
16 Q. Were you interested in the contents of the films?
17 A. Not really.
18 Q. Could you perhaps get -- could you perhaps imagine that this man
19 on whom you were planting these films could, in some situations, be
20 accused of a very serious criminal offence of intelligence collection?
21 Were you aware of that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Uh-huh. No, so you weren't aware of this.
24 Why, then, do you go on to say:
25 "To be honest, at the time, the whole thing was very appealing
1 and exciting to me, and I didn't give much thought to what kind of
2 consequences this German might have."
3 So what did you mean there by consequences for the German?
4 A. I could only assume, but I would not have any exact reasoning for
5 it, what would happen to him, nor did I think about it. And, of course,
6 I was excited. I was a young man. I saw myself -- go ahead.
7 Q. But you could imagine that some serious consequences might ensue
8 for this man?
9 A. No, I didn't think of that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't the question, Mr. Lazarevic.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you could imagine, not
13 whether you did.
14 I mean, if you plant some material on another person, he may face
15 the negative consequences of an untruthful created situation.
16 Would you agree with me?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, Your Honour. I agree with you, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And may I take it that being young and being
19 excited that you were still aware that planting somewhere, something,
20 which wasn't there originally, could do harm?
21 THE WITNESS: I don't think I actually thought about it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You were not thinking at all at the time or ...
23 THE WITNESS: No, I was thinking I'm doing a favour to somebody
24 in my own country; I'm doing it against a person that I dislike
25 intensely, being a German. I was thinking along those lines.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So based on your answers that you're providing now,
5 Mr. Lazarevic, may I claim that even to this day, even today, here, as
6 you speak, although you're aware that you might cause harm to these two
7 accused, you are still putting forward a whole series of untruths that
8 could be hurtful to them?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Bakrac, could you please split up this
10 question because there is an unexpressed suggestion in your question that
11 the witness is now giving false testimony as he, at the time, did implant
12 false evidence in a situation.
13 If you want to put that to the witness, fine. But then do it
14 explicitly, and not somewhere hidden in a question. So, therefore, you
15 may rephrase the question.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, that was not my
17 intention. I didn't mean to hide anything.
18 But based on the statement provided by this witness and his
19 answers to your and my questions, I have concluded - and this is what I'm
20 proposing to the witness - that even today he is trying to plant things
21 on other people, that he's telling untruths without thinking of the
22 possible consequences of those untruths for these two accused here.
23 Q. So is that correct, Mr. Lazarevic? Do you agree with me?
24 A. No, I absolutely disagree with you. You're drawing a line
25 between something that happened --
1 JUDGE ORIE: This doesn't need any further explanation. If the
2 witness says that this is not true, I take it that he says he is not
3 lying at this moment.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore it's not -- whether -- the Chamber will,
6 at a later stage, will, of course, evaluate all the evidence in this
7 case, including the evidence of, Mr. Lazarevic.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, after this episode with the Germans and according
11 to your statement that's - and that's on page 2 in English and page 3 in
12 B/C/S - you left for England
13 monitoring or observing the Serbian emigré circles in England. Correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. When did you go to England
16 A. I would really have to look at the passport when I entered
18 in my passport.
19 Q. Approximately, can you remember the time?
20 A. 1970.
21 Q. How long were you in London
22 A. 18 months, I think.
23 Q. All right, sir. Can you please look at your statement now. Can
24 you look at page 3 in the B/C/S and 2 in the English.
25 In paragraph 2 you say - let me not lose time to read all about
1 your work in London
2 then they told me that they wanted me to go to Australia. Nine months
3 and 18 months is very different, even from this point in time, looking
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually this is on page 3 in the
6 English, I apologise.
7 In the English version it's page 3, paragraph -- exactly in the
9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bakrac, if you had my passport in your hand,
10 and you have seen what time I left, what time I arrived Dover, and what
11 time I left London
12 remember how long I stayed, and you already know? It's an unfair
13 question because I already told you --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lazarevic, you're not invited to comment on the
15 way in which you're cross-examined. You're invited to answer the
17 THE WITNESS: I apologise.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you have an explanation for
19 the fact that you once stated nine months to have been in England
20 you now state that it was 18 months.
21 THE WITNESS: It was nine months. Right now, the first number
22 that came to my head was 18, so I said 18.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you perhaps not immediately express what
24 comes to your mind by verify internally as well the accuracy of what
25 comes to your mind.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. After that, KOS
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How did they do that?
6 A. Through Yugoslav Club in London
7 Q. Was there a particular person who came to you and told you that
8 you were to go to Australia
9 A. There was not a particular man. There was a message left for me
10 to get in touch.
11 Q. Yet in touch with whom?
12 A. Zimonja.
13 Q. Get in touch with Zimonja where?
14 A. As soon as possible. By a telephone, or in person, or however.
15 I believe I spoke on the phone to him, if I remember correctly again.
16 Q. And what did he tell you then, if you can remember?
17 A. I remember he said something to do with a bunch of Croatian
18 emigrés arriving from Australia
19 border with Austria
20 more or less shot everybody except one guy, and he gave him information
21 that they are actually from Woolongong area in Victoria, Australia
22 That's about it.
23 Q. And then you went there. Did he give you a direct order to go
25 A. I don't remember his direct order, but it was a suggestion that
1 might be a good thing if could I get there and there was no reason why I
2 couldn't. I didn't have any obligations to anybody.
3 Q. Excellent. Who financed your trip to Australia?
4 A. Australian government.
5 Q. On what grounds did it finance your trip to Australia?
6 A. Immigration.
7 Q. Did you perhaps work for their service?
8 A. No, no, no. I just filed an application for immigration to
10 Q. Very well. And then when you came to Australia, to Woolongong,
11 if I'm pronouncing the name of the town correctly, where did you get a
13 A. A local bank.
14 Q. And what did you do in the local bank?
15 A. Administrative work.
16 Q. Did you do any kind of espionage assignments in the bank at that
18 A. I think they might have asked me to check what is the financial
19 status of some of the Yugoslavs living there.
20 Q. Is that something that you think, or you are asserting that? Is
21 that something that you are sure that they asked you to do or you are not
22 sure that they asked to you do?
23 A. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure they asked me to do that.
24 Q. Who asked you to do that?
25 A. The people that sent me to Australia
1 Q. You just said that you went to Australia at the expense of the
2 Australian government, as an immigrant, and that Zimonja just made a
3 suggestion that you should go to Australia
4 A. It all had to do with building a cover when I arrived there.
5 Q. Who did you report to when you arrived Australia?
6 A. If I remember correctly, it was again done through
7 Yugoslav Embassy, or consulate, or something.
8 Q. I'm going to read back to you your statement on page 3, both in
9 the English and B/C/S version, where you say:
10 "Shortly after my arrival in Sydney, I was taken by members of
11 the Yugoslav Embassy staff to a house where they briefed me about my work
12 in Australia
13 Then you go on.
14 So Yugoslav Embassy staff in Australia knew that you were a KOS
15 agent. Is that right?
16 A. I suppose. I don't know.
17 Q. What is the basis for your assumption?
18 A. The way they dealt with me was just as a young Yugoslav agent who
19 came in as immigrant and is willing to continue to work for the Yugoslav
21 Q. And did you continue your contacts with Zimonja through the
22 Yugoslav Embassy in Australia
23 A. On and off.
24 Q. In your testimony to date you just said that Zimonja was the only
25 one who knew that you were in KOS
1 knew, had something happened to Zimonja you would not have known whom to
2 get in touch with. Is that not what you previously stated?
3 A. I did state that previously, but it was more as a thinking about
4 a joke than anything else. Of course I'd know who to get in touch with,
5 if I needed to.
6 Q. Thank you. Very well. You said that you were supposed to
7 monitor the financial situation of Serb emigrés. How would you be able
8 to establish who had how much money in their accounts? Can you explain
9 that, please.
10 A. If you worked in a bank, you have the name of the clients, you
11 can enter the accounts and see what the status is.
12 Q. Using a computer?
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 Q. In 1971?
15 A. I said you can physically go and look it up. I didn't ever
16 mention a computer.
17 Q. And so you did have the possibility physically to look at the
18 account number of each one of our citizens and see exactly how much money
19 was on that account; is that correct?
20 A. Not -- not necessarily that way that you suggested.
21 Q. How then? Can you explain it to us, please. How did you
22 actually implement the assignment that you were given and because of
23 which you had come to Australia
24 on these accounts?
25 A. I would be given the name of the person to check on.
1 Q. Who would you receive this name from?
2 A. Those who sent me there.
3 Q. And then you would freely, without any problems, be able to
4 access that account, as a bank employee?
5 A. Yes, very easy.
6 Q. And this data about the money, how many people did you compile
7 this data for?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Excellent. Thank you.
10 After that, you were given an assignment to join the --
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
12 Q. -- painters and port dockers workers union.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lazarevic, from what I read in your statement,
14 you did this job for approximately one year.
15 Now, you must have an idea on how many persons you were asked to
16 check on their financial situation. Was this a weekly event? Was it
17 three times a week? Was it once a month? You must have some
18 recollection to that.
19 THE WITNESS: I will tell you. First the thing that I discovered
20 that Woolongong itself is predominantly Macedonian population there --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I was not asking for such details.
22 THE WITNESS: Oh.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I want you to focus on whether this was a monthly
24 event. You said you got names and you were to check on persons. The
25 question simply was: How often did you do that?
1 Now, if you have worked there for a year, it's difficult to
2 understand that you say, No idea.
3 THE WITNESS: Personally, that I remember, the closest number I
4 can come up with is about 20 to 25, that is it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean twice a month, approximately. Is
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I was not originally given all the names at
8 the same time and given a period of time to find out; I might have been
9 given a name this week, a month down the road another name, and so on.
10 But I'd say, in total, over a year, I don't think it was more than 25
11 to 30.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So do know an answer to that question.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would
15 have a whole series of questions but because my time is limited, I'm not
16 going to dwell on this anymore.
17 Q. After this, you were told to join the painters and dockers union.
18 Is that your next assignment?
19 A. It was my next assignment, but it was not suggested. It was my
21 Q. That was your option then. I'm now going to read to you what you
22 told the investigators of the Prosecutor's office.
23 "After I left the job at the bank, I went to work at a steel
24 mill, an enterprise which employed a large number of Yugoslavs, all of
25 whom were affiliated with the painters and dockers union. This
1 organisation was extremely powerful. And because its members was
2 employed in a number of key industries" --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, when reading, your speed of speech goes
4 up. So try to read slowly.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this excerpt is on
6 page 4 of the English version, the first paragraph.
7 Q. Sir, I'm not going to go back and lose time. Have you found what
8 I have just been reading so that I can continue?
9 "This organisation was extremely powerful. And because its
10 members were employed in a number of key industries, this union had the
11 ability to effectively shut down Australia
12 union, at the time, was providing funds to the Irish Republican Army.
13 The Yugoslav government was interested in this aspect since they were
14 supplying weapons to the IRA."
15 You yourself thus decided to go or you were given the assignment.
16 Well, let's let that be my first question. The dockers and painters
17 union with Serb members was able to paralyse or shut down Australia with
18 a strike and it also financed the IRA.
19 Can you please explain how exactly this worked?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could we, at the same time, have the next
21 page in English on our screens.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, we don't have a lot of time, and I have a lot of
24 questions for you, so kindly, would you, please --
25 A. What was your last question? Because there are some similarity.
1 I never claimed that the painters and dockers union was a Serbian union.
2 When did I say that? There were some Serbs working within the docks of
4 Australian union, not Serbian union.
5 Q. You say that this was a company which employed a large number of
6 Yugoslavs, all of whom were affiliated with the painters and dockers
7 union. Is this not correct?
8 You can see for yourself what your statement says in English.
9 Does that reflect what you yourself told the Prosecutor's office or not?
10 Can you please look at that.
11 A. I'm just trying to find out which paragraph you're talking about.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's the last paragraph on the page which is in
13 front of you.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. The first line is totally incorrect. I did
15 work at the steel works. The steel works does not belong to the painters
16 and dockers union. They're a different union all together. But I did
17 go --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's --
19 What do you want to know, Mr. Bakrac? I can imagine that one of
20 the things you'd like to know is why Mr. Lazarevic told us that it was
21 his option to go there, it was not suggested to him. Let's try to get to
22 the core of what you apparently want to know.
23 Please put a clear question in this respect.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is sufficient.
25 We're losing too much time. I have a lot of questions. I'm not going
1 dwell on this. I'm now just going to complete this KOS period of work
2 with one more question.
3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, can you please look at page 4 in the Serbian, in
4 the B/C/S, and page 4 in the English, please. I am going to slowly read
5 it to you.
6 "In that period, I moved around some, working as an interpreter.
7 I did not like Australia
8 sending me there in the first place."
9 Well, let us stop there. Then in the statement you say that they
10 sent you, whereas earlier you said that this was your decision. What is
11 true of these two things?
12 A. I never said it was my decision to go to Australia.
13 Q. Very well. Then I misunderstood you, Mr. Lazarevic.
14 Then you go on to say:
15 "These feelings had been compounded in 1975 when my mother died.
16 She had been sick with cancer for several months and was hospitalised for
17 some period, KOS
18 anything. I was informed of her death three months after she died. This
19 caused me, for the first time, to really feel disillusioned with them."
20 Mr. Lazarevic, were you on some kind of covert assignment so
21 secret that you were not able to contact your family in Yugoslavia and
22 that KOS
23 regret having to ask you about this unfortunate affair - but it is very
24 strange to me that you would be on such a secret assignment that you
25 would be unable to be in contact with your family so that it was
1 necessary for KOS
2 mother had died?
3 A. No, it wasn't. I mean, at my age, I would send a letter once a
4 month and maybe get a reply to it in a month from my mother. She lived
5 alone. And if I didn't get a letter in two months, I didn't much about
7 But do you know how -- do you know how I got informed about it?
8 Would you like to know?
9 Q. No, no. Sir, Mr. Lazarevic, your mother did not have a
11 A. No, she didn't have telephone, no.
12 Q. Thank you. Where did she live? I'm sorry for having to ask.
13 Where did she live?
14 A. In Sarajevo
15 Q. In an apartment; is that correct?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And she didn't have a telephone. All right. Thank you.
18 Mr. Lazarevic, you keep referring in your statement, and I'm
19 going finish here with your work as a KOS agent, you keep referring to
20 what KOS
21 actual correct name of that service that you were working for?
22 A. The general name that everybody used was Kontraobavesajna Sluzba.
23 Their real name: Kontraobavesajna Grupa.
24 Q. And I assert that that is not the correct answer. In the
25 Yugoslav People's Army, what is the correct name of that organ; do you
2 A. As far as I'm concerned, it was KOS and always will be KOS
3 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, when you testified in the Milosevic case,
4 Witness Candic testified after you. Mustafa Candic, he's not a protected
5 witness; I can refer to him. I have the page and the reference and
6 everything. He explained, because he worked in the air force
7 intelligence service, he explained that KOS, K-O-S, it's actually a name
8 that actually stayed among the public from Second World War; whereas now
9 you're stating that it was always KOS
10 only the name that the service is known by amongst the people. But those
11 who actually worked in the service know what the correct name of the
12 service is.
13 I'm going to tell you now. Did you have a KOS in your brigade,
14 the 21st Krajina Brigade -- actually, in the 21st Corps? Did you have a
16 A. Apart from myself, I don't know. There are a lot of colonels
17 there, but they all claim that they are internal security. [B/C/S spoken]
18 Q. Did you ever hear of the correct name, the security organ or the
19 security administration, and do you know the structure of the security
20 administration along the vertical line?
21 A. I was not a uniformed officer of the JNA, apart from serving
22 national service. So my knowledge is probably very limited about the
23 vertical structure of organs within the army. Sorry.
24 Q. [In English] Fair enough. [Interpretation] Fair enough. I'm not
25 going to --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I'm trying to understand your questions
2 and the answer. You put to the witness, you say, KOS, that's not the
3 proper name. Then the witness suggests something else with Grupa at the
4 end, and then you say, That's not the correct answer. Fine. Then you go
5 on and you continue by asking, Was there KOS in your 21st - what
6 was it? - did you have a KOS
7 Now, what, then, should the Chamber understand this to be? KOS
8 isn't the proper name? The name given by the witness is not the correct
9 name? Then you're asking about the KOS -- what is, then, that question?
10 Why not put to the witness apparently what -- what you consider to be the
11 right name? You ask him, Was it KOS
12 different. You say that's inaccurate. Then it -- the evidence flows
13 away. Where the Chamber is interested to know what apparently you're
14 putting to this witness, that he is not giving the right answers.
15 Then give him the name as you understand it to be and say, Does
16 this refresh your memory?
17 Then we know what we are talking about.
18 But, at this moment, at least I - I cannot speak for my
19 colleagues, but they will kick me under the table if I am wrong - I get
20 lost in this, if I may say, in this little chaos.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understand you
23 completely, and I understand where my error is. But my error is time
24 related. This is a very important witness for us, and, really -- well,
25 it's like this. I am -- like this.
1 Q. I am asserting, and it exists here, let's say the command of the
2 24th Brigade, then the security organ, so the top -- the highest instance
3 in the military that you claim you worked for for 30 years is called the
4 security administration; whereas the lower units are security organs and
5 security groups.
6 This is what I am asserting and putting to you: That you don't
7 even know the name of the service that you allegedly worked for for 30
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
10 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I just wanted to ask counsel if we
11 could know when he quotes something. It appeared he was quoting
12 something. I'm not sure if he was. But if he was, maybe we could know
13 what he is quoting.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think he consulted his notes, but ...
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just looked at my
16 notes because there are thousands of documents where the security organ
17 is mentioned.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is put to you, Mr. Lazarevic, what the
19 proper names were of the -- of the security organs. Top, highest
20 instance, security administration; at the lower level, security organs
21 and security groups.
22 That's what is put to you.
23 Could you comment on that?
24 THE WITNESS: That is not how I see it. When Mr. Bakrac is
25 talking about security organs, to my mind springs security, internal,
1 leaning with security of the corps, it's brigades, this is not what I was
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're saying --
4 THE WITNESS: I believe I worked for KOS. Name KOS is well
5 known. Stayed with me all my life. If they changed it sometimes during
6 their history, I don't know. And I claim again: I was not --
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. Your explanation simply is that what
8 Mr. Bakrac is referring to may be internal security organs or elements or
9 whatever you would call it, and that's not you were working for, and
10 that's not what you are referring to. Is that?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Please, next question, Mr. Bakrac.
14 THE WITNESS: Can I ask for a very very short break, like for
15 five minutes?
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, we will even have a longer break. And I already
17 will allow you to leave the courtroom.
18 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Lazarevic --
19 THE WITNESS: Back in five?
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, we will have the normal break now. So you
21 will have some 25 to 30 minutes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, in your cross-examination you have to
24 make up your mind. What my experience is until now is that you started
25 with a few questions of which the relevance was totally unclear, not only
1 to me but to my colleagues as well, and then you entered in some areas
2 and always halfway, when the confusion was complete, you said, I've no
3 further time for this; I will move on to my next item.
4 That is not assisting the Chamber very much. You have to select
5 the most important items of your cross-examination and then to explore
6 them at a level so that we can learn something from it, that the witness
7 is not telling the truth, or that he is distorting the truth, whatever.
8 But to take it halfway, leave us with a lot of uncertainties
9 which then are not resolved in any way, is -- and then to say, Well, I
10 haven't got much more time, that is not really -- I can imagine, for
11 example, that if you're talking about a passport, when he entered into
13 have that passport or whatever. But to come to a conclusion on matters
14 you are touching upon, that's what really would assist the Chamber.
15 Would you please keep that in mind for the time to come.
16 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Could we now pull up Exhibit 2D58 in e-court. And while we wait
23 for it to appear, let me just say that it was a document that was
24 disclosed to us under Rule 68 from -- by the OTP.
25 Q. And I would ask the witness to take a look at this document and
1 tell us if he recognises it.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let us wait for a moment to have the
3 English version on the screens as well.
4 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, since we can see both versions, both the English
5 and the B/C/S versions on the screens, could you please tell us, after
6 looking at it carefully, tell us, do you recognise this document?
7 A. I don't see my signature on it.
8 Q. Yes, I agree. Your signature is missing there. We received this
9 document from the Prosecutor. And my question for you is: Do you
10 recognise this document or not? That's all.
11 As enclosure it says short curriculum vitae and then, above that,
12 Topusko, 28th of April, 1992, respectfully Slobodan Lazarevic, Topusko,
13 no signature. I agree.
14 So my question to you is: Did you actually type this document?
15 A. I don't remember, to be perfectly honest with you. I really do
16 not remember this document.
17 Q. You do not remember a significant thing such as this, that on the
18 28th of April, 1992, you requested the proper body in the command to
19 take -- to accept your application in view of the fact that you were
20 employed as a volunteer in the 8th Organisational Group as a
21 communications officer with the ECMM and UNPROFOR since 17th January and
22 so on and so forth.
23 So you can't remember that you actually sent a document of this
24 nature, together with your resume?
25 A. There is a distinct possibility, but I don't remember it.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since the witness
2 admits that this might be a document that he authored, I would like to
3 tender it into document -- into evidence. And also, something that I
4 actually omitted earlier, that military ID, to be admitted into evidence.
5 So first could we please have document 2D265 admitted and then this one,
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
8 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I just query whether the witness has
9 authenticated the document. That's -- that's our submission. If the
10 witness can authenticate the document, then we would have no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And if he cannot?
12 MS. MARCUS: If he cannot, then perhaps there's another basis for
13 authentication. Or maybe the -- if the counsel would like to tender it
14 from the Bar table, then I suppose -- just a moment, Your Honours.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
17 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, perhaps, for the moment, with your
18 leave, it could be marked for identification, if anything, so that we
19 could have a moment to look into it a little more deeply. It's one of
20 numerous documents that we received just last night.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But isn't it true that Mr. Bakrac told us that
22 he received this document from you under Rule 68? And now 68 is an
23 unclear reference to whether it's 68(i) or 68(ii). Is this the relevant
24 document or is it exculpatory?
25 How was it presented to you, Mr. Bakrac? A reference to Rule 68
1 is not -- makes quite a difference --
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, from
3 what I could see, all it states there is under Rule 68. Now, you know I
4 don't want to repeat here the circumstances under which we actually began
5 to work on this case, but if you allow me a moment, I will try and
6 research this a bit further.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps Mr. Groome has an answer to that.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I can't answer that question. But we
9 received 54 documents trying to figure out what we can about these
10 documents. There is a note in the file that may have received this
11 document from the witness himself. I'm trying to confirm that now.
12 Obviously we have no objection if the document were received from the
13 witness himself. I'm in the middle of trying to determine that at the
14 moment, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be marked for identification, and
16 the parties are invited to make further submissions as to its origin or
17 whatever information could shed light on the authenticity of the
19 So for the Chamber to further consider whether it will request
20 authentication of this document.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D19, marked for
23 identification, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 It will keep its status for the time being.
1 Then the military ID? Any objections against ...
2 MS. MARCUS: None, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: None.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D20, Your Honours.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I can be of
7 assistance, my colleague just informed me that this document was
8 disclosed under Rule 68. It doesn't cite the subparagraph exactly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, apparently from the words of the
10 Prosecution, it needs to be explored in more detail. I've given a
11 ruling. Submissions are invited. Not at this moment, orally, to be
12 made. But to file them as soon as possible.
13 D20 is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I also requested the
16 military ID that I had confronted the witness with, to tender it into
17 evidence --
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you did so. I
19 ruled on it already, after it had been given number D20. If would you
20 please keep alert of what happens in the courtroom.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And I
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I would now like to move on to your employment,
2 or, rather, engagement, at the 21st Corps, the Krajina Corps.
3 First of all, please tell us when was the 21st Corps, better
4 known as the Kordun Corps, established?
5 A. Shortly prior to withdrawal of the JNA troops.
6 Q. When you say that, could you tell us more specifically
7 approximately the time?
8 A. March 1992.
9 Q. Up until March 1992, where were you employed, or, rather, where
10 were you assigned?
11 A. I was interpreter to General Mrksic.
12 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, tell me, please, who was the commander of the
13 21st Corps from the time it was established, as you said, in March 1992?
14 A. Colonel Bulat.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm now in possession of information
17 related to D19 marked for identification.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I earlier said that we'd now like to further
19 hear the evidence of this witness. I said the Chamber invites you to
20 make submissions. And I explained to Mr. Bakrac that we'd like to
21 receive written submissions.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Could we now please pull up in e-court Exhibit 2D38.
25 Q. This is a brief certificate or receipt, Mr. Lazarevic. Please
1 take a look at this certificate. We will see the English version in a
2 moment. Right now, we just have the B/C/S.
3 Could you please tell us or explain to us what this is. What do
4 we see in front of us?
5 A. This piece of document was given to me by Colonel Bulat in
7 the time which I spent within the 21st Corps.
8 Q. When did Mr. Cedomir Bulat give this to you in Belgrade? What
10 A. End of 1995, beginning of 1996. Thereabouts. I don't really
11 remember. It was supposed to be a document as a proof which will be
12 entered --
13 Q. Mr. Witness, is this document, this certificate, was it filed
14 anywhere? Can you see the filing number or stamp? Was it ever filed
15 anywhere, at any institution?
16 A. I don't know. Why?
17 Q. Well, we'll come to that in a moment.
18 So we see here that you spent, as a member of the
19 21st Krajina Corps on the front line from the 21st of December, 1991
20 through August 14th, 1995, and you just told us a moment ago that you
21 were with the Krajina Corps since March 1992.
22 So which is more correct? What you told us today or what we can
23 see in the certificate?
24 A. 21st of December, Kordun Corps was not in existence. I think it
25 got formed February or March 1992. That's what I think.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
2 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours. Unless I misunderstood, I
3 believe that counsel has misquoted what the prior answer was in terms of
4 March 1992. The question was about when the 21st Corps was established,
5 and, to that, the witness replied March 1992. So I just want to know
6 what he is referring to.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Does that change anything to the issue at stake?
8 That is that when the witness says it was established that, of course, we
9 could not expect him to be a member of a unit which has not yet been
10 established, would we?
11 So, therefore, it comes down to the same. And what Mr. Bakrac is
12 doing is to put to the witness that he said that it was established in, I
13 think he said late March, just prior to the withdrawal of the JNA,
14 whereas we find here a document saying that he served on this unit, the
15 Krajina Corps, since 21st of December. That's the issue.
16 And that doesn't -- I think your intervention -- again, I agree
17 with you, that literally you're right; but if there's any substance in
18 it, I would like to know what it is, because I couldn't find it.
19 MS. MARCUS: I withdraw the objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So, Mr. Lazarevic, could you please explain the discrepancy and
23 which is true; what you told us a moment ago or what we can read in this
25 A. If I read this document, it becomes very clear what happened
1 here. The date of 21st of December, 1991, is the day I arrived in
2 Krajina, and it was the day I arrived. This is not the date when the
3 corps was formed.
4 Now, Colonel Bulat, in his wisdom or whatever the reason was, he
5 chose to use the date of my arrival on territory of RSK as a starting
6 working for the 21st Corps, even though the 21st Corps, as such, did not
7 exist at the time. And this document was written after the war.
8 Q. Excellent, Mr. Lazarevic.
9 My next question is this: Is it correct that it says there
10 Commander Colonel Cedo Bulat, and then there's a stamp affixed,
11 reading -- the stamp, the 40th Personnel Centre Command?
12 Am I reading this correctly?
13 A. Probably you are. But I can't see it.
14 Q. Well, trust me. That's what it says there.
15 A. So?
16 Q. Well, yes, since you said, So, my question is this: When was
17 Colonel Bulat the commander of the 44th [as interpreted] Personnel Centre
18 in Belgrade
19 A. I have no idea. I didn't even look at the stamp to be perfectly
20 honest with you. But I got it, I mean, I didn't look at. Because
21 everybody was going to the building where the government in exile was,
22 including Colonel Bulat and everybody else. And I've seen people get
23 those certificates to be entered into their world history, so I asked for
24 one, why not?
25 Q. Just a moment, please.
1 Please take a look at the last sentence now:
2 "This certificate is issued at the request of the above-named and
3 is to be used for the purpose of regulating the pensionable service
5 Now you're telling that you received this document without so
6 much as looking at it. And I've just read what it says there, that you
7 were the one who actually requested to be issued this document from
8 Colonel Bulat. And then you didn't even look at it?
9 A. [Interpretation] I have to explain this, Judge. I did take a
10 look at the document.
11 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... are you
12 suggesting I had that in my pocket, that I stamped it myself? I don't
13 get your question. It was given by Mr. Bulat; he was in that building
14 [Interpretation] Mosa Pijade 2, third floor. When I requested this
15 document -- [In English] When I requested this document, he said, Don't
16 worry; I'll give it to you. He gave it to me, and he stamped it. I
17 might have, at the time, assumed that this is a new formation of the
18 government in exile, maybe they have a different name now. What do I
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the witness testified that he did not
21 look at the stamp.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. But he said that
23 he did see Colonel Bulat affixing that stamp on the document.
24 Q. Correct? Did I understand you correctly? When you went to see
25 Colonel Bulat, he signed the document and affixed the stamp on it. Did I
1 understand that correctly?
2 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 Q. Excellent. Sir, I put it to you that this document is a forgery.
4 So now let me call up document 2D -- 2D37.
5 This is a government conclusion, the conclusion of the
6 Government of the Republic of Serbia
7 request to the government was.
8 My request was to be provided, for the purposes of this trial, by
9 the Ministry of Defence --
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. This is a
11 conclusion whereby it says that I -- it is approved. But 2D35 should
12 actually be a reply to my request.
13 Could we please pull up 2D35.
14 Q. And while we wait for it to come up, let me just tell you that my
15 request was to obtain from the Yugoslav Army information about the
16 chiefs, commanders, of the 40th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav Army,
17 all their names from the moment of its establishment up until the moment
18 when it was actually dismantled.
19 So you see this here is my request. And now I would like us to
20 take a look at 2D36.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before that document is displayed, I
23 would just remind Mr. Bakrac in the document it seems to suggest that
25 what conversations he's had with Serbia
1 session might be required before we display and discuss this document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was not my
4 understanding. My understanding was that this document should not be
5 used and may not be used for any other purposes other than for these
6 proceedings. But out of a abundance of caution, we can move on to
7 private session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, it's your document, apparently. So even
9 if you say out of a abundance of caution, which then assumes a
10 possibility that you may be mistaken in what you earlier said, let's
11 follow, then, that.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, you will see in
13 the next document, where I submitted similar requests, they did not
14 provide the information because of the reasons mentioned earlier, the
15 protective measures. So I think I can use this document in open session,
16 but only for the purposes of this trial.
17 So can we now see 2D36, please.
18 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, here we see the reply to my request, and it says
19 here that Lalic Ljubomir: Father's name, Strahinja, a retired air-force
20 colonel, was appointed between the 1st of July, 1967, to
21 31st December, 1998
22 asked, in other words, to be provided the names of all of the chiefs of
23 this personnel centre, and they provided that name. And that was one
24 name, Ljubomir Lalic, the retired colonel.
25 So my claim here is that either you or Mr. Bulat actually
1 falsified that certificate that you showed me -- showed -- that we showed
2 earlier. Is that true?
3 A. I think it's incorrect on both accounts. I don't think
4 Colonel Bulat falsified it, neither did I. I think it is a genuine
5 document issued by the fall of 1995, beginning of 1996; they decided they
6 were going to make some changes [indiscernible] which they did. I really
7 don't know what it has got to do with me. I mean, it should be beyond
8 any reasonable doubt that I have been there for almost five years. And
9 all I did was ask for somebody to confirm that I was there so I can enter
10 it in my work history book.
11 So what is the problem there?
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we -- I would
13 like to tender both of these documents, as well as 2D38.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection?
15 MS. MARCUS: As these documents were received pursuant to an RFA,
16 there is no objection, Your Honours. But I will point out that 2D38 is
17 already admitted as Prosecution Exhibit 234.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, therefore, there is no need to have that
19 admitted into evidence, from what I understand.
20 Then what remains is 2D37. Is that the one -- the first one.
21 No, 2D36, I think it is.
22 Let me just check.
23 Madam Registrar, the ...
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to understand. D237 was what
1 exactly? That's not what is on our screen at this moment but that was
2 the letter?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. That's correct.
4 That's the letter, 2D ... 2D37, Your Honours, is the reply or, rather,
5 the conclusion of the Government of the Republic of Serbia
6 request or granting my request and providing the reply as to the identity
7 of the chief of the 40th Personnel Centre; whereas, 2D36 is the reply
8 from which we can see the reply to my request of 16 November, showing who
9 the chief of the 40th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav Army was.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now in evidence already is 2D37? 2D38.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 2D38 was the OTP exhibit already.
12 It was a P number, so I withdraw it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: 2D36 and 2D37 are admitted into evidence. Under
14 what numbers, Madam Registrar?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D21 and D22, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D21 and D22 are admitted, therefore.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Could we
19 now please see 65 ter document 535 on the monitors.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I read in this document, at least in
21 translation, clearly, that it can be used only to prepare Defence in the
22 proceedings, and it will not be publicly disclosed or used in any other
23 way outside.
24 That's rather ambiguous language. That's -- but I rely on you.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm very well aware of
2 it. This is the usual wording used by the bureaucracy. When they say,
3 For use in the preparation of the trial, that is the standard formulation
4 they use. I'm pretty certain of what I'm doing is correct. But I didn't
5 have time to send the document back and ask them to actually correct
6 this, because, as you know, this witness was supposed to come and give
7 evidence in December.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, do you recognise this document before you?
11 A. I still have the little ID as a souvenir.
12 Q. Who issued this ID to you?
13 A. I believe --
14 Q. Rather, this is an official ID?
15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry. Is this -- did
16 somebody ask me is this an official ID? Yes it was. It was given to me
17 at the station of police in Vojnic by Djuro Skaljac, I believe.
18 Q. Sir, it says here official ID, and then it says the reserve
19 complement; am I correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you say that this was issued by Djuro Skaljac in Vojnic;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, sir, would you take a look, please, at the stamp. It says
25 the Glina SUP
1 that this should have been signed by the minister of the interior of
2 Republika Srpska; correct?
3 A. I don't really know. All I know is that this was the time when
4 demobilisation was implemented and all of us wake up in the morning being
5 police officers. I know I didn't print it, if this is what you are
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am now going to ask to see on the
8 left side on the screen for comparison sake, no need for translation, to
9 place on the left side of the screen 2D52.
10 Q. This document was allegedly issued to you on the
11 4th of May, 1992. Is this correct? This first one, your official ID in
12 the reserve force.
13 A. Yeah. May 4th, 1992
14 Q. Yes. Now can we look at the place here where it says
15 Dusan Pokrajac, the 3rd of March, 1992 -- the 10th of March, 1992
16 the minister is signed here, Minister Martic. Is that the same signature
17 as the one on your ID card? You can also look at the first page where it
18 states --
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, can you please just place the
20 previous document on the left side of the screen, left screen.
21 Your Honours, perhaps it would help if I were to place the
22 document that I'm showing now on the ELMO and for the previous one to
23 stay in the e-court in the English and Serbian versions. I would like to
24 ask the Usher, please, to place it on the ELMO. I have a copy in colour
25 which would be much clear then.
1 Can we look at this on the ELMO, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, to compare what is -- but we could try
3 to look at it with ... on the ELMO, yes.
4 What's your question?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My question, Your Honour, is if the
6 witness sees a difference between these two IDs. Does he see the
7 difference between the stamp and signature of the minister -- between the
8 stamp of the MUP of Knin, the difference in the signature of the
10 Q. And my question is what is this difference? How come it's there?
11 And does he see this second document that is on the ELMO, the letters
12 typed with a special typewriter being used at the MUP. It's a machine
13 containing dots and circles.
14 So I would like him to compare these two documents which were
15 issued approximately around the same time.
16 A. The differences is obvious. The document in the left looks like
17 a real police ID.
18 The one on mine -- on my side, where my name -- picture -- and
19 picture and the name is, looks like somebody just printing them out and
20 giving them out to people on the ground as some temporary solution, I
22 But do you know what is interesting? I have this card right
23 outside here, next door office. I can bring it out and you can have a
24 look at it again.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this answer is
1 sufficient. It confirms all that I want. So I would like to have these
2 two documents tendered into evidence, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's fine that it confirms what you wanted to put to
4 us, but if you would explain what you then, in your view, have put to us,
5 that these are two different documents? That these are IDs -- police IDs
6 but that they are different? Is that what we are supposed to learn from
7 this? Which is fine, but then we know, at least, what is confirmed by
8 the witness.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I apologise. I
10 wanted, precisely, actually, to put this question to the witness. I'm
11 suggesting to this witness that the ID card which is here in front of us,
12 that he gave to us as his ID, is a fake ID. It's a forgery.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Has he --
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am asserting this.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Has he confirmed that this is a fake ID? I haven't
16 heard that.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, he said the
18 difference was evident. And it is evident that the document on the left
19 side is a authentic document, it's an authentic official ID; whereas my
20 document is something that is issued in the field.
21 So I wanted to put to him my suggestion to suggest to him that
22 the document of his is a forgery.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, you would say if someone testifies
24 that a document was issued in the field, you expect -- you expect the
25 Chamber then to understand that it's a forgery?
1 That's -- if that's the case, then we will consider whether we
2 can understand the testimony of the witness in this way. But, therefore,
3 I was seeking clarification of what you exactly understood the witness
4 had confirmed. That's clear now, to me at least. Whether we would adopt
5 that as a confirmation of what you've put to us, is for the Judges to
7 Please proceed. You tender the two documents into evidence.
8 Ms. Marcus.
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, 65 ter 535 is already in evidence as
10 Prosecution Exhibit P237. And in relation to 2D52, we have no idea where
11 the document came from. We haven't been provided with any information as
12 to origin or anything. So -- and certainly the witness can't
13 authenticate it.
14 So, on that basis, we would object to its admission.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at the same time, he said that it looked very
16 much as an official ID, isn't it? It's ...
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document does
18 have an ERN number, meaning that it is a Prosecutor's document. Oh, no,
19 I'm sorry; it's my mistake. This document was obtained -- I'm sorry, I
20 apologise. I was looking at another document.
21 This document was obtained from a person who will be a potential
22 witness in these proceedings. I wanted to put it to the witness. It can
23 be introduced later when this person comes to testify. But since this
24 was not contested by Mr. Lazarevic, I don't see why we could not admit
25 this document into evidence already, now.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decided that it will admit this document
3 into evidence.
4 Now, in order not to make similar mistakes, we are talking about
5 2D52, which will receive what number, Madam Registrar?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D23, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D23 is admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, you talked about how, within the 21st
11 Kordun Corps, there was a unit under the command of Mr. Ajdinovic. This
12 was a special unit, numbering some 40 men. Is this correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. You testified that they mostly did the dirty jobs. This is
15 correct, right?
16 You also claimed that the commander of that unit, the immediate
17 commander in the field, was Sinisa Martic with the nickname Paraga.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now see in the
19 e-court Exhibit 65 ter 4131, please.
20 Q. This is a document of the 26th of January, 1993. Do you
21 recognise Commander Colonel Marko Vrcelj?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. And the order is the following: The Special Purpose Unit
24 commander of the Special 24th Infantry Brigade shall be Sinisa Martic
25 called Silt.
1 Mr. Lazarevic, Ajdinovic did not command any unit in the
2 21st Corps whose immediate officer would be Sinisa Martic, called Paraga.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. First, the person in this document is not the person I'm talking
5 about. This guy has a nickname name Silt. I'm talking about a gentleman
6 with the nickname Paraga. Now Paraga was commanding the anti-terrorist
7 unit in area of 21st Corps. Silt had a coffee bar right on a bridge
8 entering Glina. I know who that is too. So we aren't talking about the
9 same person. Vrcelj, I have no idea who he is.
10 Q. So, Mr. Lazarevic, there are two Sinisa Martic: One is Silt and
11 one is Paraga? I that what you're trying to tell us?
12 A. Would that be very unusual?
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what he is trying to tell us, but that's
14 what he told us. And you are invited to refrain from putting questions
15 to counsel rather than to answer them.
16 THE WITNESS: I do apologise. I am getting very tired.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. In previous proceedings, this question was already asked of you.
20 Did you know just one Sinisa Martic or did you know two?
21 A. No, I only knew one. I knew Paraga. Sinisa Martic allocated in
22 a little house between Topusko and Vojnic. I knew the other guy, but I'm
23 not absolutely certain that his name was Sinisa Martic too. I knew him
24 as Silt. And he had his little command right on the bridge entering
25 Glina. They are entirely two different persons.
1 Q. Mr. Lazarevic --
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask to
3 have this document tendered into evidence, because we're going do clarify
4 this later. The explanation by this witness was important to me. I
5 would just like that have this 65 ter document 4131 admitted.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 MS. MARCUS: No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D24, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D24 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, I'm going to move to a different question now.
14 You were, if I understood you correctly, in the 21st Corps, and
15 you were a communications officer; is that correct? This is the Kordun
16 Corps; is that correct?
17 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
18 Q. Did the Lika Corps also have its insignia or markings? What was
19 the name of the Lika Corps?
20 A. 19th Corps.
21 Q. What about the the Banja Corps; did that have a name as well?
22 A. 39th Corps.
23 Q. Did the 39th Corps -- or, actually, did the Lika Corps have its
24 own communications officer, signals officer?
25 A. You mean liaison officer? I have never met him, if they did
2 Q. In order to be clearer, because there's been some confusion in
3 the transcript. The person who did the same job as you did in the
4 21st Corps, was there such a person in the Lika Corps too?
5 A. I don't really know. I assume there would have been, but I don't
7 Q. And the Banja Corps? Was there a liaison officer or somebody who
8 did the job similar to yours?
9 A. I remember an officer, but I don't remember the name.
10 Q. You know that there was such a person in the Banja Corps, but you
11 don't know what their name was? All right.
12 Sir, now, in your statement you talked a lot about some exchange
13 of bodies that you were in the commission for the exchange of those
15 Can you please tell me, you were meant to exchange the bodies of
16 Muslim or Croat fighters for the bodies of Serbian fighters. Is that
18 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Serbian for Muslim, yes.
19 There were no Croatians mentioned.
20 Q. Very well. And these 99 or, actually, 100 bodies were the bodies
21 of soldiers who were killed in the Bihac pocket and who belonged or were
22 members of the Banja Corps; is that correct?
23 A. My understanding was those are the bodies collected along the
24 combat line not only from Bihac all the way to Sasine, I don't know. Or
25 even from Velika Kladusa, I don't really know.
1 Q. Let me just find that, sir. You did refer to that.
2 Here it is. Can we now, please, turn to your statement that you
3 gave to the Prosecutor's office in January, between
4 January and July 1999.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please turn to page 20 in the
6 B/C/S and page 22 in the English. In the English, that would be the
7 third paragraph.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Still not to be shown to the public.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. We're just waiting for the document to appear on the screen,
11 Mr. Lazarevic.
12 Yes, if you -- yes, we see it on the screen now. We're looking
13 at the third paragraph in the English. I will read it to you:
14 "Once when the Banja Corps of the ARSK penetrated into the Bihac
15 pocket, they lost 100 men. I had to find 100 dead bodies to exchange
16 with the Muslims."
17 Let's stop there. You stated firmly in 1999 that members of the
18 Banja Corps penetrated the Bihac pocket and lost 100 men. What is
19 correct; what you are saying today or what you stated then?
20 A. I stated then there were 100 bodies to be exchanged. That's what
21 I said.
22 Q. No, Your Honour [as interpreted], I'm reading back to you what
23 you said then.
24 A. You are really -- I can't hear you because I'm getting
25 translation, and I follow you by reading on the screen. And I don't get
1 it anymore. And then I see three's really tiny letters here.
2 What am I looking at?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In the English version can we zoom
4 in on the third paragraph, beginning:
5 "Once when the Banja Corps" --
6 Q. And do you see it now?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Is it correct what you stated to the investigators of the
9 Prosecutor's office, that the Banja Corps lost 100 men in the Bihac
11 A. I probably said it, but -- yes, I did say that.
12 Q. Very well. My question to you now is why did you participate in
13 the exchange of bodies from the Kordun Corps when there was a person in
14 the Banja Corps that had the same duties as you did? Later, I'm going to
15 read some other inconsistencies about this body exchange. But, first of
16 all, answer this question that I just put to you.
17 A. The question is very simple to answer. The gentleman you're
18 referring to in Banja Corps was not a member of the exchange commission.
19 I was liaison officer of the 21st Corps, but I was also in commission
20 with four members in exchange of fallen fighters, in combat duty,
21 commissioned for exchange of dead bodies. It was a separate duty from
22 being a liaison officer, and that would cover all of the Sector North.
23 Q. And you are telling us that nobody from the Banja Corps was
24 involved. And I'm going to continue reading:
25 "... was not involved in the exchange of bodies of its own
2 Is that what you're telling us?
3 A. I'm not telling you that. I'm telling you that I was a member of
4 commission that went and exchanged, but obviously there were officers
5 from the 39th Corps attending that too. I didn't remember all the
7 Q. My next question, Mr. Lazarevic, since you did not mention all
8 the other members, you continue:
9 "I had to find 100 dead bodies to exchange with the Muslims."
10 My question is: This big commission, including participants from
11 the Banja Corps, why was it you who had to find these 100 bodies?
12 A. This -- this might read wrongly. When I said "I had to," I mean
13 I as member of commission. But there were four of us in commission in
14 Kordun Corps working together. I wasn't by myself there. But that was
15 covering all of the Sector North --
16 Q. Please, please, we don't have time. Just one moment.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... to that,
18 Mr. Bakrac, let me just confirm with my colleagues.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I've consulted with my colleagues.
21 A. We have considered the time -- your time estimate; we have
22 considered in which -- the way in which you cross-examined the witness;
23 and came to the conclusion that you have until 7.00. And I'm seeking the
24 assistance of interpreters and all those assisting us for another ten
25 minutes of re-examination at the maximum.
1 Is that something --
2 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, as of right now, we have no
3 re-examination, just tendering one document into evidence, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Bakrac, you know how much time you've got
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm not
8 going to waste time. But when we have witnesses like this, I was
9 following it. We have spent the same amount of time as the Prosecution.
10 I followed the -- I watched the statistics. We didn't spend 180.
11 When we have witnesses like this, I understood, with all due
12 respect, that there would be exceptions. I've looked at the figures, and
13 both the Defences had spent the same amount of time as the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bakrac, you
15 missed one point in what I said, that the Chamber had looked at your time
16 estimate. You get all the time you asked for. Because you're now at a
17 little bit -- approximately one hour and 50 minutes; you asked for two
19 And you missed one issue. And that is that the Chamber
20 considered the way in which you conducted your cross-examination. That
21 is, if you say, I do not want to waste time, I think, as a matter of
22 fact, in quite a number of respects, did you waste a lot of time.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going
25 to try to use these 15 minutes.
1 Did I understand you correctly, that I have 15 more minutes?
2 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't say that. I said you had until 7.00. I
3 had asked the cooperation of interpreters and those who are assisting us
4 to grant another ten minutes for the Prosecution. But since they have no
5 questions, could I ask those assisting us to give Mr. Bakrac until seven
6 minutes past 7.00.
7 I hear no objections, so let's quickly then proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, in your statement - and I'm going to tender it if
10 it has not been admitted yet. I'm actually going to tender it and then
11 the Trial Chamber can see for themselves.
12 In your statement, you said since ten bodies were missing you
13 went to Toso Pajic and he told you to go to Djuro Skaljac. Then he found
14 four bodies for you. Then again you went to Pajic to tell him you were
15 missing another six, and he sent you to Arkan's Colonel Peja.
16 Yesterday you said something different, that you had gone to
17 Bozovic for the bodies and that Bozovic told you, If you need them, go
18 and kill them yourselves.
19 So what is true of these two?
20 A. [Previous translation continues] ... both statements are correct.
21 They were given at different times. I did see Rajovic [phoen] about it.
22 I did see Pejovic about it. I didn't see Skaljac. I didn't see
23 Mladjo Karan. There were a bunch of people that went around to ask for
24 assistance. So I might have elaborated in one instance more than in the
25 other, but we're still talking about the same -- same situation.
1 Q. Who drove the bodies? Who dug the bodies out? Who transported
3 A. For the number of ten that I was given task to provide, we dug
4 out four and we took from Petar Sarac six and put them on a truck -- I'm
6 Q. Thank you. Who did the driving? You put them on the truck, and
7 who was driving? Were you driving that truck?
8 A. No, no. I was in the car in front of the truck with -- I think
9 it was --
10 Q. Who were you with in the car behind the truck?
11 A. I think it was a -- the guy's name is definitely Roncevic. I
12 can't remember his rank anymore. He might have been a lieutenant or a
13 captain, but he was Roncevic. And the young Gvozdenovic was with me too.
14 There were three of us there. Son of Djuro Gvozdenovic.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
17 this statement, this witness statement. And I assume that it will be
18 adopted under seal.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, for a statement having been -- a
21 statement which reflects an interview, Rule 92 ter applies as you may be
22 aware of, which requires quite a lot of things that have not been
24 I suggest to you that you agree with the Prosecution on this
25 specific portion which you want to focus on, that that is what the
1 witness once told an investigator or investigators of the Prosecution
2 with a date to that, and that you agree that that's the case so as to
3 enable the Chamber to compare and to follow you in the inconsistencies
4 you have pointed at.
5 Ms. Marcus, would that be ...
6 MS. MARCUS: Absolutely acceptable, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that serve your purpose? Then we could
8 stick -- we could stay within the Rules and at the same time achieve what
9 you apparently want to achieve.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Mr. Lazarevic, in 1998, in Belgrade, were you the manager and
13 owner of a company called Orion MB
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As the manager and owner of this company, Orion MB
16 time-share apartments in Portugal
17 A. Yes, with my employees.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, we first move into private session.
19 MR. BAKRAC: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 3481-3485 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Mr. Lazarevic, the question was what you meant when you said that
9 you had fled the former Yugoslavia, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
10 And in the context of what was raised, I take it, Mr. Bakrac,
11 that you suggest to the witness that it had got something to do with any
12 suspicions of being involved in fraudulent activities.
13 Is that how you would like to -- the witness to understand your
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes. I would just
16 like the witness to take a look at page 32 of his statement, the
17 paragraph 1 before last where he says, In January 1999 -- [In
18 English] ... escaped from the FRY.
19 [Interpretation] Why did you escape from the FRY in 1999?
20 A. I might have mentioned it before. The reason for it -- the
21 reason was I was asked by Colonel Zimonja to go to Kosovo, which I didn't
22 want. He wanted me to go to Kosovo to organise the translators down
23 there. That was the basic reason for it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I add one question: Had it got nothing to
25 do where any suspicions or any claims about fraudulent behaviour on your
2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely nothing, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, any further questions?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
5 Q. Sir, just one last question: In the Milosevic case, during the
6 re-direct of my learned colleague Mr. Groome, you said that you left with
7 a bag and that you had left your Porsche and Mercedes and everything else
8 behind you in Belgrade
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why didn't you sell your belongings? Why did you have to leave
12 the same moment. I'm putting to you that you left all this behind
13 because you had earned it by -- you had obtained it by fraudulent
14 activities and that the police was actually after you.
15 So that's what I'm putting to you.
16 And I have no further questions?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let the witness perhaps first answer the
19 THE WITNESS: Well, the question is very simple to answer. I
20 believe that I have been followed by the members of secret service. I
21 didn't want to go to Kosovo; I made it very clear. And the only reason I
22 could leave is just to leave suddenly. But I did leave with my passport.
23 There was, as Mr. Bakrac suggested, an APB. I was leaving Yugoslavia
24 fairly regularly on every two or three months with a passport and come
25 back and go out and come back.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You mean after you had left you came back on
2 [Overlapping speakers] ...
3 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, Your Honour. You are misunderstanding.
4 I mean, in that period which was mentioned, 1988 or 1989 -- 1999,
5 whatever the period was mentioned, I was coming in and out, fairly
7 JUDGE ORIE: And 1999 is --
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So after you left, early 1999, that's when you said
10 had you left.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Did you, after that, return --
13 THE WITNESS: I believe I left in December 20th, 22nd, for
15 JUDGE ORIE: And after that [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers] ... after that I never came
17 back, no.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
21 Ms. Marcus, the situation remains unchanged, no re-examination?
22 MS. MARCUS: Unchanged, Your Honour, thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then there is no need for further
25 The -- we would like to have the warrant of arrest and the
1 indictment be MFI
2 Madam Registrar that would be?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D25 and D26, marked for identification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D25 and D26 will keep that status until the Chamber
5 has received further submissions.
6 Yes, Mr. --
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me just
8 one -- one minute longer for the transcript, Your Honours. These were
9 not -- I have not exhausted all the questions that I had for this
10 witness. We had more questions, but we will try and resolve this in some
11 other ways, at least cover some other ground in some other ways.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that observation.
13 Mr. Lazarevic, this concludes your testimony. I would like to
14 thank you very much for coming to The Hague, for having answered the
15 questions that were put to you by the Defence, the Prosecution, and the
16 Bench. And I wish you a safe return home again.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the Usher.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I am fully aware of my own misbehaviour. The reason
21 why I sought your cooperation and I'm now looking at those assisting us
22 is that the witness had stayed already for a considerable time in
23 The Hague
24 had to stay until next week because we have a slow speed. This is not a
25 justification, but it's just an explanation. And I hope that you will
1 accept my apologies for behaving as if I were master of your time, which
2 I'm not. And I thank you very much for your cooperation.
3 Any other urgent procedural matter? If not, we will adjourn, and
4 we resume, Wednesday, the 17th of February, quarter past 2.00,
5 Courtroom II.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.22 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
8 February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.