1 Wednesday, 17 February 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, will
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-03-69-T. The Prosecutor versus Jovica
10 Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. There are a few
12 procedural matters which I'd like to go through in the next couple of
13 minutes. First of all, the Chamber received information that Mr. Knoops
14 is, for reasons he explained to the Chamber, is not able to attend court,
15 and, therefore, Mr. Jordash is representing Mr. Stanisic.
16 I further would like to put on the record that earlier we have
17 discussed the possible housekeeping session on Friday. Unless we find
18 sufficient time today and tomorrow to deal with housekeeping matters
19 which would require approximately five quarters of an hour, perhaps even
20 one hour, any -- it would surprise me if we would go beyond one and a
21 half hours. But if we do find time today or tomorrow, hereby a
22 housekeeping session is scheduled for Friday morning at 9.00.
23 Next, on this housekeeping session, the parties will be informed
24 about the decision of the Chamber that new pseudonyms should be used even
25 for witnesses which have testified in other cases. Therefore, it's of no
1 use to wait giving this decision effect until it has been officially
2 pronounced. Therefore, the Prosecution is invited to review it. The
3 pseudonym -- the pseudonyms that were assigned to witnesses who will
4 testify before Friday.
5 Then the last matter is -- first of all, I'd like to put on the
6 record the following: On the 15th of February of this year, the Chamber
7 was informed via an e-mail from the Stanisic Defence co-counsel to the
8 Chamber's Legal Officer, which was copied to the Prosecution and the
9 Simatovic Defence, that the Stanisic Defence did not oppose the
10 Simatovic Defence urgent Defence request for adjournment filed on the
11 11th of February of 2010. This is now officially put on the record.
12 Finally, Mr. Bakrac has asked an opportunity to briefly reply to
13 the response to this same motion the Prosecution has filed. Mr. Bakrac,
14 you have five minutes to briefly reply to the Prosecution response. And
15 the Prosecution will be given an opportunity to have the last submission.
16 Mr. Bakrac, I'm looking at the clock, five minutes. Please
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you
19 very much for allowing me this opportunity to reply. First of all, I
20 would like to say that the OTP, in their response to our motion, say that
21 we did not find room for the assistance provided to us by the OTP. I
22 would like to say that we are grateful to the OTP for having disclosed
23 60.000 disclosed documents on two hard disks. They tried to compress
24 everything in one place. However, the OTP is not in a position to read
25 on behalf the Defence, to analyse on behalf of the Defence, and to assist
1 the Defence to come up with a strategy based on the analysis of
2 documents. I'm very grateful to the OTP. I know they are always ready
3 to assist, but what they cannot do is to read on our behalf, to analyse
4 the documents on our behalf, and come up with a strategy of our Defence,
5 and, thus, call the key witnesses.
6 We had two linkage witnesses among the crime based witnesses, and
7 you can see that we used only those documents that Mr. Petrovic and I
8 obtained since we have been appointed. I -- it is not my intention to
9 criticise the former Defence team because I'm still pained by the tragic
10 death of my late colleague, however, I have to say that we did not find
11 anything that the former Defence had done. And we enter the court, we're
12 two and a half months into the trial, we are grateful to the Trial
13 Chamber for having shown understanding both for that and for giving us
14 the gracious period of a month.
15 However, when we look at the things realistically with an
16 intention to provide our client with a professional assistance and to
17 provide him with the right to a fair trial, we have realised that since
18 the 1st of March when you granted for the linkage witnesses to be heard
19 without any exceptions, we cannot follow that rate if we are not granted
20 another break, another recess, to focus our efforts on the linkage
21 witnesses in co-operation with our client who is certainly going to
22 assist us with that.
23 These are the reasons why we did not submit our request earlier.
24 We submitted it only when we realised where we were, when we took stock
25 of the situation. We started with Slobodan Lazarevic in a true -- too
1 broad a manner. We did not manage to examine him in the foreseen time.
2 With all due respect to all the problems of the Tribunal, you have to
3 appreciate our effort to carry out our job professionally and to protect
4 the interests of our client and his right to a fair trial.
5 I don't want to waste much more time on that. I have two more
6 minutes left. Both -- all the parties to these proceedings have been
7 preparing for six years. My colleague Petrovic and I were preparing only
8 for two and a half months. We entered into the courtroom; we are not
9 complaining; we are just looking at things realistically, and we believe
10 that in the upcoming period when we will be facing a linkage witnesses,
11 we will need a six-week break in order to be well prepared for all the
12 upcoming witnesses.
13 The OTP's calculation is 513 days, that have already been spent
14 in these proceedings, but there are reasons for that. The first was the
15 illness of one of the clients and then the tragic death of our colleague,
16 so none of those were due to the -- any of the shortcomings of the
17 Defence, which was given a minimum time to prepare. So what was spent so
18 far is not -- was not at the expense of this Defence team.
19 I believe that I have used my five minutes. This is as much as I
20 wanted to say about the Prosecution's response. And, once again, I would
21 like to thank the OTP. The OTP has provided its opinion. They could
22 have stated that the Defence team should not be given room to prepare.
23 The OTP has left it up to the Trial Chamber to be the Judge of that.
24 And, just for the record, I would like to thank my learned friend
25 Mr. Groome and his team for having been so co-operative. I believe that
1 the reply that they submitted shows their willingness to co-operate.
2 And, once again, I apologise that in our written response we did not
3 emphasise that strongly enough.
4 Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
6 Mr. Groome, would you like to think about whether or not to
7 respond and/or are you already in a position to immediately respond?
8 MR. GROOME: Well, there's no new information or argument I wish
9 to put before the Chamber. Simply I'll rely on the written submissions
10 that we've made in this regard.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber will consider the motion.
12 Mr. Jordash, may I take it that in view of your earlier position
13 that there's no need at this moment to further respond to what Mr. Bakrac
14 has just submitted?
15 MR. JORDASH: That's right, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the -- is the Prosecution ready to
17 call its next witness?
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Can I ask for just a few seconds
19 to reassign a pseudonym, Your Honour, before I call out the witness?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the next Prosecution --
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: I am sorry. The Judges had to discuss some computer
2 Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution now calls JF-009, and
4 the examination will be conducted by Mr. Hoffmann. Your Honour, it just
5 occurs to me whether it would be useful to go into private session and
6 draw the connection between the new pseudonym and the old pseudonym so
7 that the record is clear. The Chamber issued orders with respect to the
8 old pseudonym on the 8th of February with respect to this witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Meanwhile, I put on the record that
25 the Chamber has received the weekly report which, as far as we can see,
1 doesn't change the situation, although there was a matter of suffering
2 pain caused by renal stones I think it was. If that would continue and
3 if that would cause major problems, then, of course, the Chamber would
4 like to be informed about it. But apart from that, I don't think that
5 there are any specific questions to be put in this context.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me in a
8 language you understand?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-009, because that's how we are going to
11 call you in this case, before you give testimony, the rules require that
12 you make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole
13 truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you.
14 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: WITNESS JF-009
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated. Witness
20 JF-009, you will testify under protective measures. That means no one
21 outside the courtroom can see your face, and we will not use your own
22 name. If any of the questions that are put to you would be at risk, when
23 answering them, to reveal your identity, you may address me and ask to go
24 into private session so that you can answer the question without
25 revealing your identity.
1 I'm saying this because your testimony, the content of it, can be
2 heard by the outside world. So if there's any answer you'd like to give
3 which would reveal your identity or reveal such clues, such keys, to your
4 identity, don't hesitate to ask me to go into private session.
5 You will first be examined by Mr. Hoffmann, Mr. Hoffmann is
6 counsel for the Prosecution.
7 Mr. Hoffmann, you may proceed.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Mr. Hoffmann:
10 Q. And good afternoon, Witness. The Court already informed you
11 about protective measures, and I would ask the Court Usher to just hand
12 to you a new pseudonym sheet. I know that you have -- had signed one
13 before, but it had a different number so that's why I'm -- simply for
14 that reason, I'm asking you to look at this sheet again and sign it
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann, the Chamber doesn't see the merits in
17 signing it if the witness says this is what my name is. We know what has
18 been shown to him. Then, if it's uploaded in e-court, then there's no
19 need for signatures anymore. But, of course, this now says "signature,"
20 so let's, for the last time, then ask the witness to sign the pseudonym
21 sheet. But it doesn't change anything, a signature yes or no.
22 MR. HOFFMANN: No, I just changed the number.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've seen that.
24 MR. HOFFMANN:
25 Q. And, Witness, maybe can you just confirm that at the bottom of
1 the page you see the name of your own village on that piece of paper.
2 A. [No verbal response]
3 Q. It would help if you actually give an answer to the microphone so
4 it's recorded. If you just nod, we can see it but it's not recorded. So
5 I invite you to just say yes or no, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see the name of your village?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. HOFFMANN:
9 Q. Thank you. And we will only refer to your home village and not
10 give the name of that village in order to protect your identity.
11 MR. HOFFMANN: And then, Your Honours, I would move this
12 pseudonym sheet into evidence under seal.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness will sign it.
14 So, Witness, whenever we are talking about your home village, we
15 are talking about that village of which you saw the name. Is that clear
16 to you? And could you please come a bit closer to the microphones.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
18 Oh yes, and we have to -- Madam Registrar, the pseudonym sheet
19 would receive number ...
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P251 under seal, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P251 is admitted under seal. Please proceed.
22 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Witness, do you recall giving a statement to investigators of the
24 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. HOFFMANN: I would then ask that we see 65 ter 5229 on the
2 screen, a statement of this witness, ERN 0202-1846 to 0202-1854, an ICTY
3 witness statement dated 13 March 2001
4 broadcast, please.
5 Q. Sir, on the screen before you, you see a document purporting to
6 be a statement that you gave to the ICTY investigators on the
7 13th March, 2001
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. HOFFMANN: And if we, please, could go to page 8 of the
10 English document.
11 Q. May I ask you, sir, to look at the signature on this page and ask
12 you whether you recognise your own signature on this statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you have an opportunity, prior to testifying today, to
15 review this statement in your own language?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did that statement that you signed in 2001 accurately reflect
18 what you said to the Office of the Prosecutor at that time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And if you were asked the same questions as in 2001, would you,
21 today, give the same answers in substance?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would
24 ask that the prior statement of this witness from 2001 be admitted into
25 evidence. That is 65 ter 5229, under seal.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? I hear of no objections.
2 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P252 under seal, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P252 is admitted under seal.
5 MR. HOFFMANN:
6 Q. Sir, in your statement which is now Exhibit P252 - and it is, in
7 English, at page 3, paragraph 3, the same for the B/C/S - you describe
8 how Serb soldiers came to your village in April 1992.
9 Can you tell the Court, first of all, the ethnicity of the people
10 who were living in your village at that time?
11 A. The majority of residence in our village were Muslims.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness, please repeat what he said
13 after this one. We didn't catch that, sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters heard you say that the majority in
15 your village were Muslims. You added something to that, could you repeat
16 the last part of your answer.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was only one Serbian house in
18 our village.
19 MR. HOFFMANN:
20 Q. You describe the Serb soldiers had camouflage uniforms and black
21 bandanas. On the sleeves they wore the four Serb S. Can you tell the
22 Court if those Serb soldiers were locals?
23 A. No, they weren't.
24 Q. How would you know that they were not locals?
25 A. Well, according to their voices, I noticed that they were not
2 Q. Do I understand you correctly that you refer to their
3 pronunciation or their dialect?
4 A. Well, the accent that they had was not from the local area. They
5 were from abroad.
6 Q. If you say they were from abroad, do you know or did you have any
7 idea where from?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Can you tell the Court if you recall what happened to the mosque
10 in your village?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat. It was
12 inaudible. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat again. May I invite you, again, to
14 come close to the microphone and to clearly repeat your answer.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mosque was demolished by
16 Predrag Kujundzic.
17 MR. HOFFMANN:
18 Q. And when did that happen?
19 A. I remember only that it was on the second day of Bajram.
20 Q. Are you still referring to the year 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Further on in your statement - Exhibit P252, and this is at
23 page 4 - you describe your detention at the so-called Percin's Disco.
24 Can you tell the Court who was detained at that location?
25 A. Detained there were Muslims and Croats.
1 Q. Did those detainees include men, women, and children?
2 A. All the men were there.
3 Q. And those men, were those members of any armed forces, or were
4 these civilians?
5 A. They were civilians.
6 Q. In your statement you describe the soldiers guarding the disco,
7 and you mention that some of them wore red berets. Can you tell the
8 Court if those were members of any specific unit?
9 A. Well, I think that they belonged to a special unit.
10 Q. And what made you believe that they were a special unit?
11 A. Well, most probably, although I hadn't seen that army before, I
12 heard them talking and I heard their accent.
13 Q. So this is the reason how you distinguish the Red Berets from
14 other units?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, you have mentioned Predrag Kujundzic just a few moments ago.
17 Were you able to distinguish the unit that you call Red Berets from the
18 men of Predrag Kujundzic?
19 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to object. I don't think the witness did
20 call the unit the Red Berets. I think the Prosecution called the unit
21 the Red Berets. The witness simply said that the group -- that there was
22 some people wearing red berets.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
24 MR. HOFFMANN: I'll rephrase it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
1 MR. HOFFMANN: Sir --
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. I didn't
3 want to react initially, but on page 12, my learned friend, in line 25,
4 asked the witness to describe the soldiers who were guarding the disco
5 club, and he cited a portion from his statement, and you said you
6 mentioned Red Berets also. When you look at Exhibit 252, the only place
7 where it's mentioned is page 4, but it's phrased differently. It says
8 there were various soldiers who came, some of them had red berets, some
9 of them had camouflage units.
10 So I think that the witness statement was misinterpreted in that
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic. If you want to object against an
13 inaccurate quote of the witness's statement, then you shouldn't wait for
14 half a page and then to join Mr. Jordash. It is clear to us, however,
15 that the statement talks about some people wearing camouflage uniforms
16 and some people, or some soldiers I think it even says, wearing
17 red berets. And reference to red berets is understood in the context of
18 this statement.
19 Please rephrase your question as you announced you would do.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour. And just for the record,
21 I think I just quoted literally from the statement saying that some of
22 them wore red berets as it said in the English statement.
23 Q. Witness, you had mentioned Predrag Kujundzic and his men. And my
24 question to you is if you could distinguish Predrag Kujundzic's men from
25 those that you saw wearing red berets and that you referred to as a
1 special unit?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And can you explain to the Chamber how you could tell the two
4 units apart?
5 A. It was quite simple to distinguish them.
6 Q. Can you explain and expand on that, please?
7 A. Well, Predrag's Army, most of them, were locals, our neighbours.
8 As for the Red Berets, I only recognised them by their accents, because
9 they spoke differently.
10 Q. Can you describe how those that you refer to as the Red Berets,
11 how they were dressed, apart from their red berets?
12 A. They also had camouflage uniforms and four Ss. They had
13 kerchiefs and some of them had hats on their heads.
14 Q. Witness, when did you see the people that you refer to as
15 Red Berets for the first time?
16 A. As soon as we arrived at Percin's Disco.
17 Q. Can you give the Court maybe an example of any particular day or
18 situation when you saw the Red Berets at the disco?
19 A. Well, on that day during Bajram when we were brought there.
20 Q. Did you see them again after that first day of detention at the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In what situation or context did that happen?
24 A. They were stationed in a house there.
25 Q. Just for the record, if you say they were stationed in a house
1 there, are you referring to the vicinity of the Percin's Disco?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how often would you see the Red Berets at the disco?
4 A. Every day.
5 Q. What were they doing at the disco when you saw them there?
6 A. For the most part they were just strolling around and doing some
8 Q. Did you ever see them inside the disco building?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Sir, in your statement at - and that is at page 4,
11 paragraph 5 - you describe how one day a soldier ordered 50 detainees
12 to come out and how these were subsequently used as human shields. Do
13 you recall the actual date when that happened?
14 A. I know that was St. Peter's Day. It was their patron saint's
16 Q. Do you recall the date or the month of it?
17 A. I think the 12th.
18 Q. Final question: The 12th of which month, if you do remember?
19 A. July.
20 Q. Can you describe to the Court the soldier that was taking the
21 detainees out?
22 A. One soldier burst inside with a rifle. He had a camouflage
23 uniform on, and he requested 50 men to come outside.
24 Q. Do you remember if that particular soldier belonged to any
25 specific unit?
1 A. Most probably, yes.
2 Q. Can you tell the Court to which unit?
3 A. The Red Berets.
4 Q. Further on in your statement - and we're still at page 4, the
5 last paragraph - you describe how you were told to take off your shirts
6 and form a number of rows when moving to the front line. Can you tell
7 the Court what happened next after you took off your shirts?
8 A. After we took our shirts off, they ordered us to walk towards
9 Plane. We were in several files.
10 Q. Do you recall if any of the detainees that was brought there was
11 killed at the beginning?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you describe what happened?
14 A. When we set off, one of them came and shot a man in the head.
15 And he just told us this is what will happen to you if you try to escape.
16 Q. Are you able to describe the person who shot this detainee?
17 A. He was in a camouflage uniform.
18 Q. Anything else that you remember apart from the uniform, what he
19 was wearing?
20 A. He also had a red beret on his head.
21 Q. Could you tell whether he was a local soldier?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer. It
23 was inaudible.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, again, give the answer to the question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could tell because most of
1 them were strangers, those Red Berets.
2 MR. HOFFMANN:
3 Q. And by strangers, you mean not locals; correct?
4 A. No, no, they were not locals.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Your question is ambiguous. If you say "you mean
6 not locals," what you intended to say is "you mean non-locals." That
7 creates the confusion. Please proceed.
8 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you.
9 Q. Do you know that person that was killed, the detainee who was
11 A. I only heard his name, but I do know that he was a Croat.
12 Q. And would you know from what village he was from?
13 A. Dragalovci.
14 Q. And, sir, can you tell the Court what happened to Safet Hamidovic
15 during that incident?
16 A. Safet Hamidovic was killed on the way back, again by the
17 Red Berets.
18 Q. And what happened to his body then?
19 A. We were ordered to throw his body into the River Bosna.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- I noticed that two different names are used.
21 If you look at page 18 and -- page 18 line 1 and compare it -- no, it
22 seemed to be different but apparently it's corrected. There was for a
23 little moment different names, but apparently there was a mistake. I
24 would make far more mistakes if I would have to transcribe these
25 hearings, and, so, therefore, I'm always surprised that only such a
1 little number of mistakes are made. Mr. Hoffmann, you may proceed.
2 MR. HOFFMANN: Actually, in front
3 of my screen, you are right; in the answer it still gives a different
4 spelling, so ... it should read Safet Hamidovic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the spelling is slightly different still. In
6 view of the statement given by the witness, is there, and I'm also
7 addressing the Defence, would there be any dispute as to whether the
8 person the question was about is the same person as the witness mentioned
9 in his answer? Then we can proceed.
10 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I have nothing
13 to say about this particular person. It is not in dispute. There is
14 something else which is in dispute and that is that the Defence has never
15 been informed about what this witness was going to testify about. We
16 have his statement, P252. It has five or six pages. The Red Berets are
17 mentioned for the first time on page four, line 3. The second source is
18 additional information provided to us by my learned friend on the
19 paragraph -- on the -- February 10th, 2010, where it reads that the
20 witness knew about the existence of the Red Berets, he knew they were not
21 locals, and he knew that only on the basis of his -- of their accent.
22 Now, we are hearing about some very serious allegations made at
23 the expense of the people wearing red berets. This is what we hear for
24 the first time, and we are not ready for that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I -- it's the witness's answer. Of
1 course, Mr. Hoffmann is unable to tell -- we'll have a look at it and if
2 this causes specific problems in preparing for your cross-examination,
3 Mr. Petrovic, we'd like to hear that. And, meanwhile, we'll carefully
4 check how the testimony was elicited from the witness in this respect and
5 compare that with the written statement we have received.
6 Meanwhile, please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
7 MR. HOFFMANN: If you allow me, just a quick note on that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. HOFFMANN: The statement that was tendered, in fact, refers
10 to Serb soldiers at various times. I think the Defence is well aware
11 that there are a number of prior statements. Again, to be more
12 efficient, we haven't tendered those prior statements, but they make
13 extensive reference to the Red Berets just in the context of the
14 testimony that we just heard now. So I think there is no surprise in
15 what this witness is testifying about.
16 JUDGE ORIE: To rely on previous statements which give details
17 with are not found in the statement tendered is -- to say that there's no
18 surprise at all might be a bit of an overstatement. We'll have a fellow
19 look into it. Please proceed for the time being.
20 MR. HOFFMANN: If at any time I can be of more assistance, I have
21 reference to each of the statements and where the Red Berets are
22 mentioned in the context. But I'll proceed for the time being.
23 Q. Sir, we are still talking about the 12th of July, 1992, when you
24 were at the front line. And my question to you is if you recall if on
25 that day, at that incident, any of the Serb soldiers or policemen was
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you happen to know his name?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. And do you know what happened to this Serb who got injured?
6 A. I only know that that Croat saved him.
7 Q. What Croat are you referring to?
8 A. Well, that one who was with us as part of the human shield.
9 Q. So just to be clear on the record, he was one of the detainees
10 from the disco, you say?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And do you happen to know the name of that Croatian detainee?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Sir, did you have a chance to review a number of photos from
15 Doboj prior to coming to testify?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. HOFFMANN: I would ask that we please see Exhibit P87 on the
18 screen. That is formerly 65 ter 5169. And I would ask that we go to
19 page 14 of that collection, which is showing photo number 10.
20 Q. Sir, now, looking at this photo number 10 of Exhibit P87, can you
21 tell the Court what building we see on this photo?
22 A. You mean the building in the middle?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell the Court what this building is?
1 A. That used to be the disco once in the past.
2 Q. Again, just for the record, so this is the Percin's Disco you
3 referred to earlier?
4 A. Yes, that disco, yes.
5 Q. Today, earlier, you have mentioned that the Red Berets were
6 stationed in the vicinity in a house. Do you see that, by any chance, on
7 this picture?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. HOFFMANN: I would ask that the Court Usher please assist the
10 witness with marking this photo.
11 Q. And, sir, I would ask you to indicate with a red X, the place you
12 say the Red Berets were stationed.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And would you mind, at the bottom of this photo, to put down your
15 pseudonym, JF-009.
16 A. [Marks]
17 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honour, I would ask that this photo of P87 as
18 marked by the witness be tendered into evidence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No.
20 Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P253, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
23 Again, Mr. Hoffmann, the purpose of signing or initialing
24 documents is that if the document comes at a later stage to the Court,
25 that by putting that signature or those initials on that document, that
1 we have a means of verification that that's the same document the witness
2 said something about in his statement or whatever, and it's not another
4 Now, both in respect of pseudonym sheets, but also in respect of
5 photographs, the Chamber doesn't need to verify that because the Chamber
6 has seen it. Therefore, the whole purpose of initials and/or signatures
7 on documents which were presented in front of the Chamber and to which
8 the witness testified is -- doesn't serve any purpose, as far as I can
9 see. But if you have any purpose in mind, then please tell us what that
10 would be.
11 MR. HOFFMANN: I think the additional purpose is to have, at a
12 later stage, a reference even if that document would ever be coming up in
13 another trial, whatever, that you immediately have a reference to who did
14 that marking. If you would have just a red cross on it, without the
15 transcript, it wouldn't be clear. But we are happy to follow your
16 instructions on that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do agree, I was mainly thinking about what
18 purpose it would serve for this trial. So, therefore, we agree on that.
19 And if you think that it's likely to be used in any other trial and for
20 that purpose you would like to have it initialled, then I'm not going to
21 spend any further words on it. I think it has been admitted into
23 Yes, and just for the record, apart from the cross, we find a few
25 MR. HOFFMANN: Yes, I --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it has been stored already, but
2 I know that --
3 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm being told these three additional lines which
4 happened by mistake can be taken off before we save it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, before we save it, we take out the three
6 lines which, by mistake, were made. Yes, that's one, that's two.
7 Thank you, Madam Usher.
8 Then the document is admitted, is now without the three
9 additional lines. Only the initials of the witness and the cross at the
10 house in the background.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you. And if we then please go back to
13 Exhibit P87 to page 47. Page 47 showing photo number 43 of that
15 Q. Sir, if you just take a look at it and then I'll ask that we see
16 the next photo on page 48 as well. Sir, looking at those two pictures,
17 do you recognise the buildings that are depicted on these photos?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can you tell the Court what buildings these are?
20 A. These are hangars. And the buildings used to be a warehouse near
21 Bosanka Doboj, that's the company.
22 Q. And are those the hangars that you describe in your statement as
23 being detained there for a few days?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. HOFFMANN: I would then ask that we call up
1 Prosecution 65 ter Exhibit 5232. It's ERN 0674-2885.
2 Q. Sir, did you, prior to testifying today, review this list of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in the first column, did you mark any person that you
6 remember by name as being detained with you at the Percin's Disco?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And in the very last column, did you mark any detainee that you
9 remember being killed on 12 July 1992
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders this
12 document, this list of victims of the 12th of July, 1992, into evidence.
13 As it has the previous pseudonym for the time being, I would ask that we
14 admit it under seal. And maybe we can redact the old pseudonym which is
15 at the bottom of the page with his signature.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P254 under seal,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P254 is admitted under seal. Please proceed.
21 MR. HOFFMANN: Your Honours, I'm just looking at the clock, I may
22 have about slightly over five minutes left, therefore, I would --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we would continue. Usually we take
24 sessions of 75 minutes. It would be a little bit over 75 minutes.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Hoffmann.
1 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you.
2 Q. Sir, when you were released from detention in late summer 1992
3 and you refer to that in your statement at page 6, paragraph 3, what did
4 you do after being released from the detention?
5 A. I was subject to work obligation.
6 Q. At some time were you allowed to return to your own village?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And can you describe the situation in the village when you
9 returned in late summer 1992?
10 A. When I returned, I realised that everything had been looted.
11 Q. And finally, in your 2001 statement - Exhibit P252 at page 6,
12 last paragraph - you describe how, in July of 1993, all villagers were
13 transported out of Doboj. Can you tell the Court if you and the other
14 villagers left on your own free will?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Why do you say that you did not leave on your own free will? Can
17 you explain that to the Court, please?
18 A. Well, because buses arrived to take us, and we had to pay
19 50 German marks each for transportation.
20 Q. Did you have a choice to stay behind in your village?
21 A. No, we had no choice at all.
22 Q. Can you tell the Court what ethnicity the villagers were on the
23 12 buses that you mention in your 2001 statement?
24 A. Muslims.
25 Q. Did the group of villagers that you described on the buses
1 include man, women, and children?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And were these people on the buses prior to boarding the buses
4 involved in any fighting, or were these civilians, if you know?
5 A. They were civilians.
6 Q. And where did the buses bring you to?
7 A. All the way to Travnik.
8 Q. Did you personally ever return to live in your home village?
9 A. I did not have an opportunity to return before. Nobody dared
10 return before.
11 Q. If you say "returned before," what time-period do you refer to,
13 A. Well, we all spent ten years or even longer living as refugees.
14 Q. And as of today, did you ever return back to live in your home
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When did you go back to live in your home village?
18 A. I stayed living in the centre of town even a bit longer because I
19 did not have a place to return to since my house had been destroyed.
24 Q. And when about was that? Which year, if you recall?
25 A. No.
1 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, if my learned friend wants to lead on this,
2 there's no dispute from the Stanisic Defence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And since there's no strong opposition from the
4 Simatovic Defence, Mr. Hoffmann, if you want to lead, there's no problem
5 in that.
6 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you.
7 Q. I would just ask you, Witness, did you return in the recent years
8 to your home village?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That being two or three years ago, would that be correct?
11 A. Even more than that.
12 Q. Okay. I'll put it the other way around. It was after 1995,
13 after the war ended; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, sir.
16 MR. HOFFMANN: And I have no further questions, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break, I'd like to seek
18 clarification on one issue. You said you had no choice then to leave
19 because you had to pay 50 Deutschmarks, and you had to board the buses.
20 Who told you that you had to board those buses?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Red Cross arrived from Doboj.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the Red Cross is not known for forcing
23 people out of their homes. What was told to you under those
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were told to collect the bare
1 necessities, as the buses were on their way. The police were there.
2 They had arrived together with the Red Cross.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was that local Red Cross, or was that
4 International Red Cross? Did they speak your language?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not engage in any
6 conversations with them. They just came as escorts to take us.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you not hear them speak at all?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You do not know whether these were foreigners?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did they tell you that you had to board the buses,
12 or were they just there and --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were there to come with us as
14 our escorts.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, now, who told you exactly that you had to
16 go on those buses? Was it the Red Cross, was it the police, was it
17 anyone else? You said you were informed that you have to take your
18 necessary belongings; who told you that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police and the Red Cross, but I
20 myself did not understand what they were saying.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Because you didn't know the language, or?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And the police that came, what did they speak?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbian.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you well that the police came
1 together with the Red Cross and that you could understand the police
2 because they were speaking your language, and that the Red Cross people
3 were not speaking your language? Is that --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Was there anyone, as far as you know, who resisted,
6 that is, refused to board the buses?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody would have remained there
8 alive. Even if you had been insane, you would not have stayed there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
10 We first have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes
11 past 4.00.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Will it be the Stanisic Defence or Simatovic Defence
17 who will cross-examine the witness first?
18 MR. JORDASH: The Stanisic Defence, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Witness JF-009, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.
21 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
22 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
23 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Could I say, from the outset, that we do not seek to challenge
3 the horrible experience that you had, and we express our sympathy for
4 that experience. I would like, however, to ask you some questions to try
5 to clarify some of the things that you saw during that experience and
6 some of the conclusions that you reached. You follow me? You
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. I'll be about 20 to 30 minutes. Now, you said in
10 response to my learn friend for the Prosecution that you saw men who you
11 now term Red Berets and you recognised them because they had, I think,
12 foreign accents, and you also described them as wearing camouflage
13 uniforms with four Ss on them. And then you said they had kerchiefs and
14 some of them had hats on their heads. Do you recall that?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Jordash kindly speak into the
17 microphone, please. Thank you.
18 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
19 Q. So the men you term as Red Berets, some of them had hats on their
20 heads and some of them did not; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The men who you term Red Berets who did not have hats on their
23 heads, were they dressed in camouflage?
24 A. Yes, they were, but they seemed to be local.
25 Q. Okay. So some of the men who you term Red Berets who did not
1 have hats on seemed to be local; do I understand you correctly?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Some of the men who had hats on who you termed Red Berets, were
4 they, some of them, also local?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So the men who you term Red Berets with hats on, were they all,
7 from what you observed, from out of the immediate Doboj region?
8 A. Most of them were from Serbia
9 Q. Most of the men who wore red berets who term Red Berets were from
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where were the others from?
13 A. Well, they were local, from the area around Ozren and the Doboj
14 area, the entire Doboj area.
15 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you have men wearing
16 red berets, most of them from Serbia
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And men you also term Red Berets who were from around the
19 Ozren and the Doboj area; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I want to be clear about one more thing. The men you term
22 Red Berets who were from around the Ozren and the Doboj area, how did you
23 know that they were -- or why did you see them as Red Berets?
24 A. Well, they had different insignia. Some had the four Ss, and
25 these others had eagles on their patches. And also, they spoke a
1 different -- they had a different accent.
2 Q. A different accent from where? A different accent to which
3 accent? What are you making the comparison to?
4 A. Well, they kept using the word "bre."
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: B-r-e.
6 MR. JORDASH:
7 Q. Okay. So the men who had eagles on their patches and spoke with
8 a different accent, did you you know where the accent was from?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where was that from?
11 A. Well, they were there outside the disco building.
12 Q. Sorry, let me try that question again.
13 The men who wore eagles on their patches and spoke with a
14 different accent, did you recognise where the accent came from?
15 A. Well, Serbia
16 Q. So you had men wearing red berets who were from Serbia
17 also wearing eagles on their patches who sounded as if they were coming
18 from Serbia
19 A. No, I said that the men who had the eagles on the patches, they
20 were Serbian, and they had -- they kept using the word "bre;" whereas the
21 others were local, they were normal speaking people.
22 Q. Okay. So let me try to be clear. The men with the eagles on
23 their patches, did you define them to yourself as Red Berets?
24 A. They were all Red Berets but, as I've already mentioned, the ones
25 who also had the eagles, they were from Serbia; whereas the guys who had
1 the four Ss, they were local.
2 Q. Sorry, it's probably my lack of understanding, but could you then
3 define for us who you say was a Red Beret? How are you defining that
4 specifically? Was it because of the accent or something else?
5 A. Well, they kept using "bre" --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Which is a Serbian
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and they had a different accent,
9 a special accent.
10 Q. So is this, then, and accurate description of your perception:
11 If you heard a soldier at that time using the term "bre," the Serbian
12 localism, you would define them as a Red Beret? Is that -- am I right
13 about that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And if they were local, if the soldiers you saw were local with
16 local accent, you would define them as something other than a Red Beret?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you are confusing the witness here of
18 your -- his previous testimony. The only way of dealing with the matter
19 is to go through in a very systematic way, step by step. Let me see
20 whether I can give it a start.
21 There were persons you called Red Berets. You've told us that
22 you've seen persons wearing Red Berets. Now, was every person wearing a
23 red beret, are they among what you call the Red Berets? If you would see
24 someone with a red beret, would you automatically say that is a
25 Red Beret?
1 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if someone was not wearing a red beret but was
3 wearing the kind of hat you described, would you call those Red Berets,
4 would you always call those persons Red Berets, or would you need
5 additional information to call them Red Berets?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they all had these red caps,
7 red berets. But they had different insignia. Some had eagles, and the
8 others had four Ss.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you. We'll come to the insignia
10 at a later stage. You told us there were people wearing red berets, and
11 you also told us people were wearing hats. Now, if someone would wear a
12 hat, as you described it, would that mean for you that that was a
13 Red Beret, in itself, just by looking at the hat?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So you could wear a hat without being a Red Beret,
16 for you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, people not wearing any head cover at all,
19 did you see them just without berets, without hats?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were troops and
21 military personnel of all sorts. You couldn't even tell all the
22 different uniforms.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But were there soldiers not wearing
24 red berets, not wearing the hats as you described them?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would -- among those, would there be any who,
2 although not wearing a red beret, although not wearing a hat, you would,
3 nevertheless, consider to be among what you called the Red Berets?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they weren't.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, my next question is: If you say people were
6 wearing red berets, you saw people wearing hats, are you aware of persons
7 wearing a red beret, well, let's say, in the morning and wearing a hat in
8 the afternoon? Did they change their hat wear at any time? If you know.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were such instances.
10 There were people without any hats on. There were also -- there were
11 also bald people -- bald people, and there were all kinds.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's just take, for an example, the bald
13 people. They were automatically not Red Berets for you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were, in fact, true Red Berets
15 because I saw these men every day, they practice in the use of arms and
16 also all different types of martial arts.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You would say, by what you saw as training
18 exercises, you would say that even not wearing a red beret or not wearing
19 a hat they, nevertheless, could be among those you considered to be
20 Red Berets; is that correctly understood?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I move to a different aspect, insignia. Were
23 there insignia that were worn only by persons you would call Red Berets?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were -- there was
25 also -- there were military personnel who just had regular insignia.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But now, could you give me an example of what
2 you consider a specific Red Beret insignia, if that exists? If you know.
3 If you don't know, tell us.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They only had the eagle patches,
5 eagles insignia.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well, you earlier mentioned the
7 eagles insignia, that if someone was wearing an eagle insignia, if he was
8 wearing eagle insignia, you considered that person to be a Red Beret. Is
9 that correctly understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and that they were from
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll come to the language at a later stage.
13 Did you ever see anyone wearing eagle insignia which you would
14 say were, nevertheless, not Red Berets, or?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not possible.
16 JUDGE ORIE: By wearing the eagle insignia, they fell within the
17 category of Red Berets for you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, those wearing eagle insignia, were they
20 always also wearing red berets, or could you wear eagle insignia without
21 wearing a red beret as head cover?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's possible because there
23 were times when they took their caps off.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would the same be true for the hats, that is,
25 that you could -- well, I think that question is answered already by the
1 previous question.
2 Any other insignia you considered to be indicative, being an
3 indication that someone would be part of, you call, altogether, the
4 Red Berets? Do you recall any of the other insignia?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier, the four Ss insignia were mentioned. Have
7 you seen those?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, same question as with the eagle insignia: If
10 you would wear a four Ss insignia, would that mean automatically that you
11 are a Red Beret, or could it be that you are not a Red Beret,
12 nevertheless, wearing the four Ss insignia?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So if you were wearing four Ss insignia, you were a
15 Red Beret; and, similarly, if you were wearing an eagle insignia you
16 would be a Red Beret as well, in your understanding?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Irrespective of whether you really were
19 wearing, at that moment, a hat or a red beret, it's the insignia that
20 were significant for you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And did I understand you well that if you were
23 wearing those insignia, it could well be that you would have a red beret
24 as head cover or such a hat as you described as head cover, so that means
25 insignia and such head cover?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you told us that some people were using
3 specific language which you recognised as specifically Serb. Now -- we
4 have, now, the Red Berets that are people with those insignia whether or
5 not wearing the red berets or the hats; would all of those, wearing these
6 insignia, would all of those speak the specific Serb language, or would
7 there be, among them, soldiers who would speak your local dialect?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Earlier, you told us that Red Berets often were
10 using this Serb language but that there were local Red Berets as well.
11 Now, could you explain to me what you then considered to be local
12 Red Berets? What insignia were they wearing?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wore the four Ss; that
14 insignia. Locals.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I earlier asked you, I said, Were all of those
16 wearing these insignia - and I was referring to the four Ss insignia and
17 eagle insignia - I asked you would they all speak the specific Serb
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Or would, among them, there also be soldiers who
21 would speak your local language. And then you said, "No," at the time.
22 Now your answer is different. You say those wearing the -- you said that
23 some of the locals were - and you recognised them by their language I do
24 understand -- that nevertheless some of the locals were also wearing the
25 four Ss insignia. Is that the case?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And as far as the eagles insignia are concerned,
3 were there any people speaking your local language which would wear the
4 eagles insignia?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I only mentioned that for the
6 people from Serbia
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "there were also locals," wearing the
8 eagle insignia, or?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the four Ss; that's what I
11 JUDGE ORIE: So what I now understand from you is then that those
12 wearing eagle insignia were always speaking the specific Serb language,
13 whereas --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- those wearing the four Ss insignia, that they
16 could either speak the Serb specific language or your local dialect?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our local dialect and Serbian.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would find, among those, people speaking
19 specific Serbian but also persons speaking your own language. I said I
20 would give it a start, Mr. Jordash. I may have disappointed you. I went
21 on quite a bit. Not to say that we've exhausted the subject, but a very
22 systematic approach. I thought, that would assist the Chamber, at least.
23 Not to say that it would resolve all problems, but at least it would
25 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. And, as I said before, don't
2 consider the matter to be exhausted, if you have any specific further
3 questions on the matter, which -- but preferably aiming at seeking
4 clarification rather than further confusion.
5 MR. JORDASH: Certainly. I think I hope to do that, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
7 MR. JORDASH:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, have you seen, since 1992, the eagle insignia that
9 you speak of? Have you been shown it by the Prosecution? Have you been
10 shown a book with insignia in it and asked to identify it?
11 A. No one has to show me. I know what an eagle is and what four Ss
12 are, so I don't need to be shown anything.
13 Q. You haven't been shown it by the Prosecution in the last few
15 A. There's no need.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ...
17 You've told us now two times that there's no need to do a certain
18 thing. What I'd like to know is that, with or without any need, whether
19 you were shown a book or pictures of insignia, or whether they were never
20 shown to you?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Did the description you've just given at the learned Judge
25 concerning the Ss and the insignia, did you give that to the Prosecution
1 a few days ago when Mr. Hoffmann interviewed you?
2 A. Yes, I told him about the Red Berets.
3 Q. And the account you gave before the break concerning the
4 Red Berets being part of the human shield, training outside of where you
5 were detained, was that an account you gave to Mr. Hoffmann a few days
6 ago when he interviewed you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And was he taking notes when you gave him that account? Was he
9 writing or typing?
10 A. Well, I did observe that he did write something down, but what it
11 was, I don't really know.
12 Q. You met Mr. Hoffmann on the 15th of February, 2010.
13 15th of February, a few days ago, didn't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how long were you interviewed for during that appointment?
16 A. Well, up until 11.00.
17 Q. What time did you start; do you remember, approximately?
18 A. 9.00.
19 Q. And during that two hours, was Mr. Hoffmann writing notes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you about Predrag Kujundzic. Just
22 a few questions about him. He came to your village in June of 1992.
23 That's right, isn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And he was born on Mount Ozren
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And he had a paramilitary or a military unit called
3 Preda's Wolves; is that correct?
4 A. Preda's, yes.
5 Q. And did they are the men who surrounded your village so that you
6 couldn't get out; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did they have any insignias, those men?
9 A. The four Ss. And they wore camouflage uniforms and black
11 Q. But no eagles?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And the men who you saw surrounding your town, did you see them
14 taking orders from Predrag?
15 A. Predrag actually sent the troops into the village, and he issued
16 orders to people as to what they were to do.
17 Q. And was Predrag -- sorry, let me start that again. Did Predrag
18 have the four Ss on his uniform?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But no eagle on his uniform; is that correct?
21 A. That's correct; no eagles.
22 Q. And his brother, you saw his brother being part of that group
23 surrounding your village; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And his brother was called Nenad?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And his --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. And his brother also had four Ss on his uniform but
5 no eagle; is that correct?
6 A. Four Ss.
7 Q. And no eagle?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And were all these men, as far as you could hear, local men?
10 A. Local men.
11 Q. And these local men had lists and were looking specifically for
12 local people; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, the men who gathered you at Percin's Disco were regular
15 policemen wearing blue uniforms; is this correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And those policemen, at different occasions, allowed various
18 soldiers to come in and mistreat you; is that correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And it's right that the men you said were Red Berets didn't come
21 inside the disco; is that correct?
22 A. Well, I said that a soldier entered, a soldier wearing a
23 camouflage uniform. Whether he had a Red Beret on, I didn't really
25 Q. The men coming into mistreat and beat you were local people?
1 A. Yes, local people.
2 Q. The man you saw -- am I correct that you saw the man, the
3 soldier, kill the Croat man? Did you see that with your own eyes? The
4 Croat man from Dragalovci.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Are you able to describe the man who shot that Croat man?
7 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, and he shot him from a very
8 close range. He shot him in the head.
9 Q. Do you know where the man was from, the man who did the shooting?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Did you hear him speak?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Didn't you hear him warn the rest of you in the shield that if
14 anyone tried to escape or didn't do what they were told, they would
15 suffer the same consequence?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you hear his accent? Where was it from? Can you remember?
18 A. Well, most probably he was a local man, but I don't remember.
19 Q. Was the man who did the shooting -- let me start that again.
20 Did the man who shot the Croat man take orders from someone at
21 the scene, from another soldier at the scene?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 Q. Was the man who shot the Croat man, did he appear to be in
24 charge, or was he one of the criminals pushing you into the human shield?
25 A. I didn't hear your question. I wasn't following quite.
1 Q. I'll repeat it. The man who shot the Croat man, did he appear to
2 be in command or was he just one of the criminals pushing you into the
3 human shield?
4 A. Well, he just barged inside, and he asked for 50 men to be taken
6 Q. And that's the same man who shot the Croat?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now -- one moment, please. Do you know a man
9 called Karaga; is that correct? Or you met a man called Karaga when you
10 were detained?
11 Sorry, Let me repeat that: Do you recall a man called Karaga?
12 A. Yes, I knew him from before.
13 Q. He was a local man?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you observe him with his group when you were detained?
16 A. Yes. He also was one of those who entered the village.
17 Q. Was he then taking orders from Predrag?
18 A. I wouldn't know about that. He had his own soldiers, and I don't
19 know whom he received his orders from.
20 Q. I'm not disputing that he had his own soldiers, but why did you
21 come to that conclusion?
22 A. Well, he had his men. He came all the time while I was in
23 detention, and I also knew him from before.
24 Q. And the man who was in his group were also local men, from what
25 you can see?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. And did they have any insignias, Karaga's group?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did they have?
5 A. They had four Ss.
6 Q. And that was it?
7 A. That was it.
8 Q. Did they have anything on their heads?
9 A. Well, for the most part, they wore hats.
10 Q. Did you see the colour? Do you recall the colour?
11 A. Camouflage.
12 MR. JORDASH: Could I please have on the screen Exhibit 253.
13 Q. I just want to understand, if I can. Do you have that on your
14 screen, Mr. Witness? The house that you have drawn the red cross on, who
15 do you say lived there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who do you say lived in that house?
18 A. What do you mean, before the war or?
19 Q. No, sorry. What did you intend to indicate when you put the red
20 cross on that house?
21 A. That was the house where the Red Berets were. They were in that
22 house. And we were here in Perco's disco.
23 Q. Is the house the same size as the house in front of it?
24 A. Well, most probably yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, if that question would be put to
1 you -- to me, I would have asked, What house are you talking about in
2 front of it? It would be unclear to me, so since ...
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. How many men appeared to live at that house, Mr. Witness?
5 If you don't know, it's okay to say you don't know.
6 A. Well, no, no, you just confused me a bit with your question.
7 Q. You indicated that that was the house where the Red Berets were.
8 How many Red Berets were in that house from what you could see?
9 A. Well, I didn't count them, but they were actually living and
10 staying in all the empty, all the deserted houses there. And in that
11 house probably was the brunt.
12 Q. So the men who you saw going into that house were the ones with
13 the eagle insignia?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And some of them had red berets on and some did not?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And whoever those men were, they were different to Karaga's group
18 and different to Predrag's group; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last question?
22 MR. JORDASH: That was my last question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have one follow-up question.
24 You told us that Red Berets were in abandoned houses. The last
25 question that was put to you by Mr. Jordash was about those who belonged
1 to Karaga's group and those who belonged to Predrag's group. Now, do I
2 understand that the members of Karaga's group, and the members of
3 Predrag's group, were not in those abandoned houses?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: They were not in those houses?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they weren't.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Where did they stay; do you know?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, usually they came during the
9 day and they were in the centre of the town, whatever.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And where did they stay during the night as far as
11 you are aware of?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, but do you know where they -- were they in
14 another place, did they go home? Where were they at night?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know where they spent
16 their nights. I just know that they came during the day. They went to
17 all these different places, the central prison and elsewhere, all the
18 places where there were detainees. They went and visited those.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
20 Mr. Petrovic, perhaps I was informed as far as time is concerned
21 that we'll have some time left today. It was a question whether we could
22 deal with the housekeeping matters. The Chamber is not yet prepared for
23 that. However, the Chamber will be tomorrow, so, therefore, if the next
24 witness could remain stand-by and that we could start with the next
25 witness after we conclude with this witness.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm advised that he will be in the
2 building from 5.45.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's good to know. Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to
4 cross-examine the witness?
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-009, you will now be cross-examined by
7 Mr. Petrovic. Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic, and he speaks
8 the same language as you speak; therefore, if he asks you a question,
9 could you just pause for a while before you answer it so that we receive
10 interpretation. And Mr. Petrovic will do the same.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
14 Q. Sir, I'll just have a few questions for you, so we should finish
15 very quickly. And I will start with the topic that you discussed with
16 the President of the Trial Chamber and my learned friend. I am going to
17 show you some insignia, and I will ask you to tell us whether some of
18 those insignias correspond to what you saw on the occasions that we have
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 65 ter 4861 is the
21 document that I would like to call up. Could the witness please be shown
22 page 19 thereof. I would also like to emphasise that I did not announce
23 that I would be using this document; however, this is based on my learned
24 friend Mr. Jordash's questions and the questions by the Trial Chamber. I
25 would like to assist the Trial Chamber by explaining what the witness
1 actually saw.
2 Can we please produce page number 19.
3 Q. Here we can see some White Eagles. Witness, does this resemble
4 the thing that you saw in Doboj at the time in question?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at
8 page 32 in the same document.
9 Q. You also mentioned an insignia with four Ss. Is -- is that the
10 insignia you had in mind?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And now, 56. Page 56, please.
13 Almost an identical insignia. Very, very similar, if not
14 identical. Page 56, please.
15 Q. Witness, did you see this in Doboj in Percin's Disco and during
16 the events that you described for us?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I have several more questions for you. Sir, among all of those
19 units and troops that you saw, were there Chetniks whom you would
20 describe and identify as Chetniks?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you mention in some of your previous statements that there
23 had also been Chetniks, or were they all segregated into the groups that
24 you explained to us today?
25 A. I don't remember that I mentioned Chetniks anywhere.
1 Q. Do you remember where, in what building did you provide your
2 first and only statement to the representatives of the OTP of this
3 Tribunal; not to anybody else but only to the representatives of this
4 Tribunal? Where was that, in what building? That was in 2001.
5 A. I don't know. I don't know where that was, where I provided my
6 statement to them.
7 Q. Do you remember at least in what town that was?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Is it true that you provided your statement in the office of the
10 Gracanica police; does that perhaps jog your memory?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell me, please, before you arrived to provide your testimony
13 here today, had you spoken about somebody as to what the subject of your
14 testimony here would be?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did somebody call you from the OTP or from the AID in
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, if you know what the AID is?
18 A. No. I don't know.
19 Q. Did you ever provide a statement to the AID?
20 A. I told you, I don't know who that is, what that is.
21 Q. AID is the agency for research and documentation for
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Does that mean anything? Does that ring a bell?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. If not, we'll move on.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
1 questions for this witness. Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
3 Mr. Hoffmann, any further questions for the witness?
4 MR. HOFFMANN: Very briefly, one or two questions.
5 First one procedural matter: I was wondering if Defence intended
6 to tender the patch book. I know that we had discussions previously a
7 number of times whether or not the parties would actually agree to tender
8 it. Now it's been used. I would assume that it should be in evidence,
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think there were -- examples of it have been used
11 before, isn't it?
12 MR. HOFFMANN: No, not directly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then insignia at least. We have seen insignia and
14 pictures of insignia which are in evidence, apparent then they are taken
15 from another source. Is that correctly understood?
16 MR. HOFFMANN: We have, I think, two insignia at the moment in
17 evidence which were tendered separately. At the moment I think they
18 might be in that book as well, but I'm not sure. But I think, just for
19 future reference, it might be actually worth it to have this one booklet
20 in evidence and then we can refer to any of these patches. But I think,
21 at this point in time, if it's not tendered, you wouldn't have any
22 document in front of you later on for the record.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The page, of course, could be tendered, then we have
24 specific insignia which were used. But if we have a look at this book
25 several times, then, of course, it might be more practical to have the
1 whole book in evidence so that we only have to refer to the page and that
2 we have once and forever decided on admission.
3 Mr. Petrovic.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are agreeable to
5 having the entire booklet admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: The same position, Your Honour, thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
9 MR. HOFFMANN: I'm happy to tender it. From the Prosecution side
10 it's Prosecution 65 ter 4861.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- you would like to have it on the screen
12 as well at this moment?
13 MR. HOFFMANN: No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, could you assist us as
15 finding a number to a book.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P255, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P255 is admitted into evidence.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Hoffmann:
21 Q. Witness, just one are two questions to clarify some things. You
22 mentioned today that you saw the Red Berets first at the disco and that
23 you have marked today on the photo location where you said the Red Berets
24 were stationed.
25 And my question to you is: Did you see what you refer to as the
1 Red Berets anywhere else than outside or near the disco and during the
2 human shield incident?
3 A. No, nowhere else.
4 Q. And last question today: You talked about the one Croatian
5 detainee that was from Dragalovci and who was killed on 12 July 1992
6 the beginning of that human shield incident. When I ask you
7 about it - and that is at page 17, line 4, today - you said he was
8 dressed in a camouflage uniform with a red beret and that he was not a
9 local man, while during cross-examination you answered that he was most
10 probably local, but that you don't remember. And I would simply ask you
11 to clarify, if you can, as of today, whether it's your evidence that he
12 was wearing a red beret, that he was not a local, or whether he was a
13 local, as far as you can recall today?
14 A. I was a bit confused, and I could not provide a correct answer.
15 Q. Just to clarify, when you say you were confused and you couldn't
16 provide a correct answer, which answer are you referring to?
17 A. Well, I'm referring to this question about this red beret.
18 Q. I don't want to confuse you further, but I think it's an
19 important matter for the Chamber to understand what you recall today.
20 And you just said again, you know, the questioning about this red beret.
21 Do you recall today, as you told me during my questioning, that he was
22 wearing a red beret?
23 A. Yes, I remember having said that.
24 Q. And just last question because we heard slightly different
25 answers. Do you recall, as of today, whether that person who shot the
1 Croatian detainee from Dragalovci on 12 July 1992, whether he was local
2 or not?
3 A. He was not.
4 MR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Perhaps we may have -- if the Bench has any questions, then it
8 might be easier to ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you.
11 Questioned by the Court:
12 JUDGE ORIE: You told us about the Croat that was shot; do you
13 remember that?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Shot [Overlapping speakers] in the head I think you
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, in your statement you told us also about a
19 Croat. And I'd first like to read to you what we find in your statement.
20 You said:
21 "I know that one of the prisoners was killed in the camp. I
22 don't know his name, but I know that he was a Croat."
23 And you further said that:
24 "His body remained in the room for two days before the soldiers
25 took him out."
1 Was that this same event as you talked about today, the Croat
2 that was shot in the head, or was that a different event?
3 A. A different event.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that explanation.
5 Today you told us that when asked about a certain Karaga, when
6 you were asked whether you recall a man with that name, your answer was:
7 "Yes, I knew him from before."
8 You were asked whether he was a local man, you said:
10 And then you said:
11 "Well, he had his men. He came all the time while I was in
12 detention, and I also knew him from before."
13 Now, in this statement you gave, and I read now from your
14 statement as you gave it in 2001, you said:
15 "Once Karaga was visiting the warehouse. He was a commander of
16 some paramilitary group. I did not know him from before. I only learned
17 his name while I was in the camp. I don't know his full name."
18 So today you told us that you knew Karaga from before, whereas I
19 read in your statement of 2001 that you did not know him from before.
20 Could you explain?
21 A. I knew Karaga from before. Karaga had come to visit me at home,
22 and he also -- he had also patroned my cafe bars. I remembered him well,
23 but I had lost contact with him for a while and then we met again.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also said at the time:
25 "I only learned his name while I was in the camp."
1 Which seems not to be consistent with what you are telling us now
2 is that you -- he had already come to visit you. So did you know his
3 name already from before?
4 A. Yes, I did. But that was a long time before that, and I had, in
5 the meantime, forgotten him. But I did know him before. But I simply
6 had lost sight of him.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Mr. Jordash.
9 MR. JORDASH: I suppose I wanted to put on the record that in
10 relation to my learned friend's re-examination on the issue of the man
11 who shot the Croat, the objection to the way in which it was led and the
12 way in which Mr. Hoffmann reminded the witness what he had said and then
13 the witness was then pushed into that answer, which was at page 54. It's
14 a bit late in one sense that the witness gave his answer, but
15 Mr. Hoffmann put to the witness:
16 "Do you recall today, as you you told me during my questioning,
17 that he was wearing a red beret."
18 And I was objecting to that question. It's my learned friend's
19 case, as it's developing, that this was a man called Crnogorac, a Serbian
20 who was employed by the DB; and that's why Mr. Hoffmann led the witness,
21 to get him it to confirm that. And we object to that approach because
22 it's a very important point, as Mr. Hoffmann knew it, and yet he led on
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, at the same time, it's difficult to
25 un-lead after.
1 MR. JORDASH: I know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, the same observation applies as I
3 gave to Mr. Petrovic at an earlier stage that if there are serious
4 objections to be made to the formulation of the question, then, of
5 course, that can well be the case. And not always, but sometimes, of
6 course, the objections are granted. And under those circumstances, it's
7 difficult to do that afterwards. And I'm not in any way -- I'm
8 encouraging you and the Simatovic Defence to make objections which assist
9 and -- but then, do it in time.
10 MR. JORDASH: To be honest, Your Honour, I hesitated because of
11 the nature of the witness and the nature of his testimony. And I didn't
12 want, in any way, to affect the witness. That was -- and I would have
13 done it quicker if it had been a different type of witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hoffmann.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, if it's about the same matter, then I'll
17 allow you first, Mr. Bakrac. Although you have --
18 MR. BAKRAC: Your Honours, on behalf of my learned friend
19 Mr. Petrovic, I would like to follow up. We are listening to the English
20 interpretation, and it's late for us to object by the time we listen
21 through to the witness, but I would like to say that I would subscribe to
22 what Mr. Jordash has said, that the witness has been prompted to change
23 what he said during the cross-examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. Hoffmann.
1 MR. HOFFMANN: I certainly don't want to expanded to much here,
2 but I want to state on the record, and I think it's been clear from my
3 questions, that I put both answers he gave during chief and cross to the
4 witness before the matter was clarified. So certainly did not just lead
5 on what he had told during the examination-in-chief, but also put to him
6 the answer he had given in cross-examination and then clarified.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will consider the submissions in
8 this respect. I have one or perhaps two or three more questions.
9 Could we have on the screen page 15 of P255.
10 Could you have a look at this. You earlier told us about the
11 insignia of the four Ss, and you were shown one with eagles on it as
12 well, and you said that is what you saw. Now, I give you, here, just one
13 example of insignia with four Ss. Could it have been that the insignia
14 were without eagles but with four Ss only that you saw?
15 A. I saw all the insignias.
16 JUDGE ORIE: When you were shown the insignia with the four Ss,
17 are you certain that it was that specific insignia that you saw with
18 four Ss, or could it have been another insignia with four Ss as well?
19 A. Most probably this is the four Ss that I saw. And with regard to
20 the images that I was shown, I saw all of those insignia.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties assist me, perhaps, in finding
22 other pages with four Ss on them, because I know for sure that at least
23 one of the documents which -- one of the insignia that was admitted into
24 evidence was with four Ss, but it was quite a different one. And I do
25 not know whether they can be found in the book or not, but 126 pages
1 takes a while to scroll through them. So I'm seeking other examples with
2 the four Ss in order to find out how specific the recollection of the
3 witness is.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I showed him
7 pages 36 -- could you please bear with me just for a moment.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can assist the Chamber.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. GROOME: Page 43, 44, 45.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's -- we'll have a look at them.
12 Could page 43 be shown to the witness.
13 That's also an insignia with four Ss. Could it have been this
14 one or this one as well?
15 A. This one I didn't see.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we show the witness 44, page 44.
17 Does that look like what you've seen, or do you say, No, this is
18 certainly not the one, or it could have been the one I've seen?
19 A. The one that I saw before is the one.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you've seen several ones. The one I've
21 shown you or the one that was shown to you earlier with the eagles on it
22 and the four Ss?
23 A. The one that I was shown by them before.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That is with the eagles on it and the four Ss, is
25 that --
1 Could we show, perhaps, that was page 19, if I'm -- could page --
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could page 19 ... no, that's not the one. I'm
4 looking for the one with the --
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 56 in the
6 document that has just been admitted into evidence. 56.
7 JUDGE ORIE: 56. Could we show page 56 to the witness.
8 A. That's the one.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's the one with the eagles and four Ss --
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- and that you refer to as the insignia with the
12 four Ss on it? Is that correctly understood?
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
15 Any questions triggered by this last series of questions by the
17 If not, then, Witness JF-009, this concludes your testimony in
18 this court. I would like to thank you very much for coming the long way
19 to The Hague
20 by the parties and by the Bench.
21 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 5 minutes past 6.00.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 --- Recess taken at 5.37 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 3554-3555 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Are the technicians prepared for the face distortion? Yes, and
10 pseudonym would be JF-008, from what I understand.
11 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness JF-008. Can you hear me in
14 a language you understand?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm calling you Witness JF-008 because protective
17 measures have been granted in respect of you, which means that the
18 outside world is not able to see your face and we are not going to use
19 your name. And if answering any of the questions that a will be put to
20 you would require you to -- if any information which would be at risk to
21 reveal your identity, you can ask us to go into private session so that
22 the protective measures will remain effective.
23 Now, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
24 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration. And the text will
25 now be hand out to you by Madam Usher. And I would like to invite you to
1 make that solemn declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS JF-008
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: That you have, Witness JF-008. Please be seated.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll first be examined by Ms. Friedman.
9 Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution.
10 Ms. Friedman, you may proceed.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 I would ask that 65 ter 5234 be placed on the monitor before the
13 witness. This is the witness pseudonym sheet.
14 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
15 Q. And good evening, JF-008. I would ask you --
16 A. Good evening.
17 Q. I would ask you, sir, to take a look at the pseudonym sheet in
18 front of you and direct your attention to where it says witness name; is
19 that your name?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Directing your attention to where it says date of birth; is that
22 your correct date of birth?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you also see the name of a village on the document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is this your home village?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is this where you were living in May of 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I would tender the pseudonym sheet,
6 65 ter 5234, as evidence under seal.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear you, but maybe could you please
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P256, Your Honours, under seal.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P256 is admitted under seal.
13 Perhaps, Ms. Friedman, if you explain to the witness that if
14 reference is made to his village, that we are talking about the village
15 which we have now seen the name of.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
17 Q. Witness, sir, I don't know if you've heard Your Honour, if we
18 refer to your home village, we'll refer to the village that's on the
19 sheet -- the pseudonym sheet that just was before you. Is that clear?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, without mentioning the name of that village any
21 further. So if we are talking about your home village, we are referring
22 to this village that you have on the screen now. That, apparently, is
23 clear to the witness.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN:
25 Q. Sir, do you recall giving a statement to members of
1 Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY in relation to this case?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would ask that 65 ter number 5235 be placed on
4 the monitor before the witness. This is the statement beginning with
5 ERN 0639-5134.
6 Q. Now, on the screen before you is a document purporting to be a
7 statement given by you on 15th of April, 2009. Is this it? Is this the
8 statement you recall?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can I ask that the bottom of the page be shown,
12 Q. Do you recognise the signature on this page?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Which signature do you recognise?
15 A. I recognise my handwriting.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would now ask that we turn to page 8 of the
17 document, again with a view to the bottom of the page.
18 Q. Sir, do you, again, recognise a signature on the statement?
19 A. Yes, this is my signature.
20 Q. Now, have you had an opportunity to review this statement in a
21 language -- in your own language since coming to The Hague?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you affirm that it is true and accurate to the best of your
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions today, would you provide
2 the same answers in substance?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders into evidence
5 65 ter 5235, bearing English ERN 0639-5134, which is the statement of
6 this witness dated 15 April 2009
7 under seal.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the Defence. I see or hear of no
10 Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P257 under seal, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P257 is admitted under seal.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 There are a number of associated exhibits to this statement, they
16 are -- or associated documents, I should say. They are discussed in the
17 statement, and they've already been admitted at trial. And, as you can
18 see, I've handed up a chart that outlines the 65 ter number, the admitted
19 exhibit number, and the description of the document. I've shown it to
20 Defence counsel for both accused. And I wanted to know whether you would
21 like to -- I can also call this up in e-court and admit it as an exhibit,
22 or else I could read the corresponding numbers on to the record. In any
23 event, I thought it would be of assistance to have before you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You say they have already been admitted into
25 evidence on the list? I see MFI
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct. It is noted on
3 that document as well that two of the exhibits have received P numbers
4 but they are marked for identification.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you make it three, I would agree with you.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: Oh, three. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 It's simply, though, for the cross-reference, as these documents
8 are, in any event, discussed in this statement. I will ask further
9 questions on just a couple of them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that there's no need to -- for them to
11 be tendered again in any way. They are all assigned numbers. Does this
12 list cover all the associated exhibits?
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: It covers all the associated exhibits in the
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so, therefore, we have a complete list. They
16 all have been assigned numbers. And, until now, the - of course, in
17 relation to the MFI
18 the reasons for the objections are such that we could not deal with them,
19 but there seems to be no need to further address them, unless you would
20 like to address it in further clarifying questions with the witness. But
21 I don't think that any procedural action has to be taken at this moment
22 any further.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN:
25 Q. Sir, what was the predominant ethnicity of Doboj?
1 A. Muslim.
2 Q. And when was Doboj taken over?
3 A. On the 1st of May, 1992.
4 Q. How long did it take for it to be taken over?
5 A. Approximately a day.
6 Q. Were other --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak louder.
8 Thank you.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN:
10 Q. Were other --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Have you heard the request to speak louder?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It took one day.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN:
15 Q. Were other villages subsequently occupied?
16 A. After a certain while, there was a change of power in other
17 places as well.
18 Q. And just to specify, other villages, I'm referring to the
19 surroundings of Doboj, the area that you lived, were -- did there come a
20 time that the villages surrounding Doboj were all occupied?
21 A. Yes, but in different time-periods from May to June.
22 Q. Did this include your village?
23 A. My village was indeed among those villages.
24 Q. You described in paragraph 10 of your statement how the people in
25 your village were disarmed. Were you given any reason that you had to
1 turn in your weapons?
2 A. No, there was no reason or explanation whatsoever.
3 Q. You then described in paragraph 11 that you were taken away from
4 your village along with 20 to 28 others. Were you given any reason that
5 you had to leave?
6 A. No, nobody ever told us why we were being taken away.
7 Q. Sir, I would like to move quickly through a few questions about
8 the three places that you described being detained in July 1992, based on
9 your statement. I'll ask just a couple of follow-up questions.
10 In paragraph 12 you state that you were first taken to the
11 district prison next to the SUP
12 was in charge of that prison?
13 A. The SUP
14 there were guards there, the same ones that a had worked in the prison
15 before the war.
16 Q. Then in paragraph 13 you stated that you were next taken to
17 military storage halls, and that:
18 "There were very many Bosniaks and Croats locked up in those
19 military storage halls, hundreds of them in six storage halls."
20 You stated that:
21 "All sorts of soldiers would enter these storage halls every day
22 and beat up whoever they got their hands on."
23 What types of soldiers are you referring to when you say "all
24 sorts of soldiers"?
25 A. I was talking about members of the Army of Republika Srpska
1 because it was under the control of the military police, the prison was.
2 Q. Finally, in paragraph 15, you describe being transferred to
3 Percin's Disco. Were all of you transferred there together?
4 A. We were all transferred in the course of one day, but not all of
5 us, all those who were transferred, were transferred in the course of one
7 Q. And how many of you were in Percin's Disco?
8 A. There were anything between 312 and 320 of us. The prisoners
9 themselves did a head count.
10 Q. When was it that you first saw soldiers wearing red berets?
11 A. The first time I saw red berets was when I was in the SUP prison
12 in Doboj.
13 Q. How did you come to see them?
14 A. We managed to see them as we were taken out of the prison and
15 taken to work, and as we were passing by the prison building, we saw
16 those men, members of the Red Berets.
17 Q. On these occasions, did you speak to those men?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did the police officers who took you out to work speak to them?
20 A. They did not.
21 Q. Did you have any impression about how these police officers
22 escorting you felt towards the men wearing the red berets?
23 A. The policemen who escorted us would often take us further away
24 from those men. They kept their distance. And I would even say that
25 they showed apprehension with regard to them.
1 Q. At that time, did you have any direct knowledge of who those men
2 were who wore the red berets?
3 A. No, not at that time. No.
4 Q. Did there come a time that you had a more direct encounter with
5 such men?
6 A. Well, my most direct contact with those men was on the
7 12th of July when we were in Percin's Disco in a place called Vila
8 That's when the Red Berets came to the prison. And, on that day, they
9 ordered some 50 men to form a human shield because there had been a
10 conflict between the BiH Army and the Army of Republika Srpska in that
11 area, so they took 50 men out of the Percin's Disco and used them as a
12 human shield in the area where the combat was taking place.
13 Q. Okay. I'd like to take you back and ask you: When they first
14 arrived -- when they first arrived did you -- how long did it take for
15 them to gather these men?
16 A. There were a lot of us in the prison there. The prison was
17 overcrowded. It took them no more than five minutes to take 50 men out
18 of the prison.
19 Q. Did they say anything when they arrived?
20 A. As they entered the prison, they cursed us and they shouted at us
21 and they said, Get out of here. And that's when they chased the 50 men
22 out of the prison.
23 Q. Were -- you said before that day you had only seen that they were
24 wearing red berets. Were you able to observe anything more through this
1 A. On that day, only three of them entered the camp and they took
2 the 50 men out, and that was on day one, on the 12th of July.
3 Q. Did you hear them speaking?
4 A. Only at that moment when they were chasing and driving people
5 out, when they cursed our mothers and they said:
6 "Bre, fuck your mothers, get out of here."
7 Q. When you say "bre," what does that mean?
8 A. Well, that is something that our local people don't use. And as
9 they uttered that word, I immediately realised that they did not hail
10 from the area, that they were not locals.
11 Q. Did you have any impression of where they were from?
12 A. At that moment, we could already realise that they had come from
13 somewhere else, that they were not locals.
14 Q. Now, you were not yourself taken out that day, were you?
15 A. No, I was not among the 50 men.
16 Q. Did you have an opportunity to hear what happened?
17 A. Well, on that day they took my brother who was in the camp with
18 me and a few other men from my village. Two of them returned, and they
19 told us what had happened as they were being taken out and what had
20 happened to the other men who had not returned.
21 Q. How did you feel on that day upon hearing this story?
22 A. We felt terrible because on that day, my brother did not return
23 to the camp. I thought that he had died, given that a number of people
24 did not return.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: Would the Court Usher please call up 65 ter 5240.
1 This is a copy of the Prosecution's victim list in relation to paragraph
2 54 of the indictment.
3 Q. Sir, since coming to The Hague, have you seen a list -- have you
4 seen this list?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recognise any names on it?
7 A. I recognise the name of (redacted). I
8 also recognise the name of Arif Omercic. I remember him. He was in the
9 camp with us. And I know that most of those people hailed from Civcije;
10 I recognise their family names. We spent quite a lot of time together in
11 the camp.
12 Q. Which are the family names that you recognise?
13 A. Ante Kalem, Arif Omercic. (redacted).
14 Q. Do you know what happened to Ante Kalem?
15 A. On that day, when people were being taken away to serve as a
16 human shield, Ante Kalem was killed as soon as the men were lined up. He
17 was standing next to my brother, and one of the Red Beret members shot
18 him and killed him. Just by way of example, to show the others how they
19 would fare if they tried to flee.
20 Q. And Omercic; do you know what happened to him?
21 A. He did not return. He did not come back to the camp, and I heard
22 that he had died, that he had been killed.
23 Q. You said that you also recalled some specific family names on
24 that list. Can you say which family names you recall?
25 A. Well, Ahmic, for example; I remember them well. And I remember
1 some of the Omercic people.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I could tender this into evidence,
3 or we could -- I think the record is clear that he is he referring to the
4 victim list that's filed with the Prosecution's pre-trial brief. Either
5 way, I seek your guidance on that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The evidence, I think, can be understood without
7 this list where the reference is clear and whether the answers of the
8 witness are clear as far as the names are concerned, he has testified
9 about. So, therefore -- but I'm also -- if any of the -- I don't take it
10 that the Defence will take any issue with this at a later stage. Then we
11 can leave the list as it is.
12 Ms. Friedman, please proceed.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honours. I would ask that we now
14 go into private is session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 3569 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN:
25 Q. Returning to the 12th of July, 1992, did you ever have occasion
1 to hear the Serb police talk about that day?
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would like to return to private session briefly,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 Please proceed, Ms. Friedman.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Sir, where were the Red Beret headquarters?
7 A. The Red Berets belonged to the Doboj centre of public security,
8 and their headquarters was in the pensioners centre which was called the
9 police centre.
10 Q. And how many people could that police centre hold?
11 A. This pensioners club was quite a big building and could
12 accommodate quite a few people. You actually have to tell me who are you
13 asking me about, the capacity of what?
14 Q. The capacity of that building that you referred to as the police
15 centre, the one that was formerly a retirement home?
16 A. Yes, yes. There were even as many as 400 rooms, so it could
17 accommodate a large number of people.
18 Q. Did the Red Berets ever come to the SUP building?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you observe anything about -- were they working in the SUP
21 building? What would they do when they came?
22 A. No, they didn't work. They just dropped by. They were not
23 assigned there as their working place.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, I would need a couple of minutes for a
25 few matters. We have to finish at 7.00. So if you could find a suitable
1 moment to conclude your examination for the day, then I'd like to hear.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honours, actually this is a suitable
3 moment. I can conclude now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness JF-008, we are close to 7.00 where we
5 conclude, but we'll continue tomorrow. And we'd like to see you back
6 tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in this same courtroom.
7 But I also instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or
8 communicate in any other way with anyone about your testimony, whether
9 that is testimony you have already given today or whether that's
10 testimony still to be given tomorrow. Is that clear to you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please be so kind to follow the Usher who
13 will escort you out of the courtroom.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, I asked you whether the list you
17 provided was complete, you said it was. I noticed, however, that in
18 paragraph 35 of the statement of the witness, reference is made to
19 photographs. Photographs which are not on your list. I don't know
20 whether you want to ignore them or how you would like to deal with those.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. You are quite right, and
22 I appreciate that note that there were photographs referred to. I
23 believe they are also previously admitted in the evidence of another
24 witness, and I can get the exhibit numbers and provide those on a
25 modified sheet tomorrow.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, we could do that. I also, you more or
2 less suggested that we could read these numbers into the record. There's
3 no need officially to do that because in the statement we find all the
4 65 ter numbers which are corresponding with the exhibit numbers. At the
5 same time, in order to avoid that everyone who has to, perhaps, later,
6 review the record of this case, perhaps it would be good that I just
7 briefly read them into the record because then we are still close to the
8 testimony of the witness.
9 Therefore, 65 ter 3842, as mentioned in the witness's statement,
10 is Exhibit P144. 65 ter 4479 is P150 marked for identification.
11 65 ter 4485 is P146 marked for identification. 65 ter 4574 is P -- is
12 Exhibit P147. 65 ter 4680 is P148 marked for identification.
13 65 ter 4839 is now P Exhibit 142. 65 ter 4840 has become P88.
14 65 ter 5011 has been admitted as P143. And 65 ter 5012 has become P89
15 and is admitted already.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honour, I can also inform you, now, of the
18 exhibit number for the photos.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: Which -- the photos are ERN 0629-0136, 0629-0181.
21 And they were admitted as a whole, although only one is discussed in this
22 statement. And they are admitted as P87.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is on the record. Thank you, Ms. Friedman.
24 Last question: How much time would you still need tomorrow?
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: I believe I will still need the 45 -- I think I
1 have 45 minutes remaining, and I intend to use that or close to that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I inquire with the Defence teams, as matters
3 stand now, how much time they would expect to need tomorrow?
4 MR. JORDASH: I would have thought about 45 minutes for
5 Stanisic Defence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 45 minutes, yes, which would bring us in the second
8 Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I already agreed with
10 my learned friend, Mr. Jordash, that I would be the first. And as things
11 stand, I don't think that we would need more than 45 minutes. However,
12 it depends on the 45 minutes announced by the OTP tomorrow. But judging
13 by the situation at the moment, I think that we won't need more than
14 45 minutes to one hour, and maybe perhaps my learned friend Mr. Jordash
15 won't need as much time as he has announced.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the cross-examination, just making
17 a projection of Mr. Jordash, would take us a quarter of an hour into the
18 second session, then the 45 minutes for the Simatovic Defence would bring
19 us one hour into the second session. Therefore, it seems reasonable to
20 expect that we would finish -- that we would conclude the testimony of
21 this witness somewhere in the second half of the second session, so that
22 we would have the last 75 minutes, at least, available for housekeeping
24 We adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow, the
25 18th of February, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of
3 February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.