1 Thursday, 18 February 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
9 Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom. This is
10 case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and
11 Franko Simatovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS JF-008 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-008, I would like to remind you that the
16 solemn declaration you've given yesterday is still binding upon you, and
17 I also would like to remind you that if, for answering any question, you
18 have fear that an answer in a public hearing would reveal your identity,
19 please ask to go into private session.
20 As yesterday, your face cannot be seen by the outside world, and
21 we'll not use your own name.
22 Ms. Friedman, are you ready to continue your
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, I am. Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
1 Examination by Ms. Friedman: [Continued]
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I'd like --
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. -- to continue where we left off in asking you questions about
5 the Red Berets. What kind of weapons did they use?
6 A. Well, the members of the Red Berets had some special weapons. We
7 could see that they had weapons, a special kind of weapon called a
9 Q. Do you know where the Heckler weapon originated or where it was
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was it common -- was it a weapon used by the JNA?
13 A. As far as I know, they did not have those weapons.
14 Q. And what kind of weapons did the local police use?
15 A. The local police had automatic rifles manufactured in Zastava.
16 Q. Are you aware of any other unit which used the Heckler weapons?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Sir, yesterday, at transcript page 3566, you testified that when
19 the Red Berets came to Percin's Disco they used the word "bre" and that
20 this word was not used by locals. Can you tell us what the word "bre"
21 actually means?
22 A. Well, most people in Serbia
23 in our area do not use it.
24 Q. Thank you. And do you know what it actually means?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I'm going to read to you now a short passage from your statement,
2 which is Exhibit P257 --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, could we find out in one way or
4 another what "bre" -- how it functions in a sentence? Is it just
5 something you interject or -- because we've been listening now to "bre"
6 for quite a while, having no clue. Perhaps during the break you could
7 seek agreement with the other parties on how it is used or what it
8 approximately means.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, we can certainly do that during the break,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MS. FRIEDMAN:
13 Q. Okay. Returning -- sir, I'm going to read to you a short passage
14 from your statement, which is admitted in this trial, as follows:
15 "The Red Berets were feared by everyone, even the local police.
16 They were not under anybody's control. They would not accept any regular
17 police order. Zoran Devic himself had told me once that he was hit by a
18 Red Beret when Devic tried to intervene in the prison on behalf of his
19 former Muslim doctor."
20 So I would like to ask you a few questions about this incident.
21 Firstly, without any reference to how you knew him, can you tell us who
22 Zoran Devic was or what position he held?
23 A. Zoran Devic was a member of the regular police, and he worked as
24 a policeman before the war broke out in that area.
25 Q. Which prison are you talking about when describing this incident?
1 A. That incident happened in the SUP building in Doboj.
2 Q. And who is in charge of the SUP
3 A. The SUP
4 police from Doboj.
5 Q. In what way was Devic hit, if you know?
6 A. Well, he told me that he was hit from behind in the back with a
8 Q. And do you know when this happened?
9 A. Well, it happened before I came out of the camp.
10 Q. You stated at paragraph 28 of your statement that:
11 "The Red Berets in 1992 trained also local people and integrated
12 them into their unit."
13 How did you come to realise that they were training local people?
14 A. Well, while I was in this discotheque, the Red Beret members
15 carried out the training close to the camp itself, and we from the camp
16 could see members of that unit pass by and train a number -- a large
17 number of people.
18 Q. Okay. So you said you saw them pass by. How were you able to
19 see from outside the camp?
20 A. Well, it used to be a discotheque, and there is a large door on
21 the discotheque, and there were some small windows inset in that door,
22 and you could see the people pass or cross this asphalt road that was
23 there in front of the camp.
24 Q. How far was the road from the camp?
25 A. Some 30 metres. It was about 30 metres away from the camp.
1 Q. You said you saw them training. What kind of activities did you
2 actually see? What led you to believe that they were training?
3 A. Well, I noticed that those people who were training there were
4 moving around with their rifles. It was a kind of a military movement.
5 They were moving information, and their rifles were at the ready.
6 Q. How often would you see them?
7 A. Well, while we were there, they were passing by on a daily basis.
8 Q. You said they were training large numbers of men. Do you have
9 any idea of approximately how many people were being trained?
10 A. Well, maybe about a hundred people, judging by all those people
11 who passed by.
12 Q. Do you have any idea of how large the red group -- the Red Beret
13 group was originally before it involved training locals?
14 A. Well, it was not a large group. A smaller number of people,
15 maybe 20 or 30 of them.
16 Q. And do you know what sort of people they would train?
17 A. Well, they were training people from the units and brigades that
18 were located in that area, the Doboj region.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you instructed us
21 yesterday not to hesitate if we have any objections. I am supposed to
22 start my cross-examination of this witness in about 15 or 20 minutes, and
23 this is the first time that I hear about any details about this witness
24 seeing the Red Berets conducting this training exercise from
25 Perco's disco and that he saw them every day, how many of them there
1 were, and so on, in spite of the notification that we had received.
2 So this is the first time that we get some information that is
3 really important for our cross-examination, and I really wonder how far
4 the Prosecution intends to go with this kind of examination of the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: Excuse me. And may I join in and endorse the
8 objection. With the previous witness we had a similar state of affairs
9 where we are given some background evidence in terms of its relation to
10 the core of the case against the accused; and in the core of the case
11 against the accused, that is the training and the activities by the
12 Red Berets then led through evidence, led through evidence which it
13 appears the prosecuting counsel is aware of but has not been disclosed in
14 any written form.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. Your Honours, paragraph 28 of the witness's
17 statement addresses training. In fact, I quoted it to the witness,
18 and -- yes, I quoted it to the witness.
19 Given that the case is about training, of course this is -- these
20 are simple follow-up details, but there's nothing new. The witness said
21 that he saw men being trained outside Percin's Disco. For me to ask how
22 far away it was, if he was able to observe it closely or how many people,
23 are just details. I disagree that there's a notice issue.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
25 MR. JORDASH: Well, how far away, of course, is a detail.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first ask a question. We find ourselves
2 in a bit of a specific situation. It's a 92 ter witness. Would -- what
3 we find in paragraph 28, would that have been good enough for a
4 65 ter summary as far as training is concerned, because that should be
5 the test, isn't it? That is what -- you should be aware of what kind of
6 things the witness would testify about.
7 Now -- so that's my first question. If a 65 ter summary - and I
8 have not verified a 65 ter summary in relation to this witness - would
9 have said the witness couldn't tell us about training by Red Berets close
10 to Percin's Disco of locals, would that -- is there any authority which
11 you would say is insufficient as far as a 65 ter summary is concerned?
12 MR. JORDASH: Well, I'm not sure that the -- the answer is an
13 absolute one. I think the answer to that is it depends.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JORDASH: And I think, in this respect, it -- this is not
16 sufficient, because we don't know -- the accused do not know how many
17 people the Prosecution say constituted the original Red Berets who
18 arrived in Doboj. We don't know whether they were based at Mount Ozren
19 or in fact -- and conducting training there, or whether in fact they were
20 based at the Percin's Disco and conducting training there. We don't know
21 in either place the approximate number of locals who were alleged to have
22 been trained and who then constituted the new Red Berets group. And that
23 really is the core of the case against the accused as far as we can see
24 in Doboj. Who were the Red Berets and how did they end up as this group?
25 And we haven't been given that detail, except we know the witness looked
1 out of his window and saw some training, full stop.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If you allow me to add, the
5 paragraph that was quoted by my learned friend says the Red Beret, in
6 1992, likewise, trained a local population and integrated them into their
7 unit. It's too broad a time-frame for us to be able to speak about the
8 incident of the 12th of July, for us to be able to focus on that incident
9 and whoever participated in it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Bakrac, where the statement of the witness
11 clearly states that they were detained in Percin's Disco and by whom, or
12 at least give an indication as to -- would you say that in 1992 that you
13 did not understand that this was related to the situation of being
14 detained there rather than dancing all night in a disco? Mr. Bakrac,
15 that's so obvious that, for 1992, reference to Percin's Disco is to be
16 considered in relation to -- and if that would be unclear, of course,
17 then you can cross-examine the witness on that.
18 Therefore, I am not inclined to take the 1992 respect here too
19 serious. And apart from that, it can be easily -- you asked the witness
20 whether -- when he referred to 1992, when he referred to the time when he
21 was detained or the time he was not detained, and then we'll find out
22 what it is. That's -- one second, please.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The objection to the line of questioning as -- on
25 the basis of having received insufficient notice is denied.
1 Ms. Friedman, you may proceed.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. You -- your last answer, sir, was about who was trained, and you
4 said it was people from the units and brigades that were located in the
5 area of the Doboj region. And you testified that the Red Beret unit
6 itself that you originally saw was from Serbia and that you distinguished
7 it in the way they spoke. Once the locals were being trained, how could
8 you distinguish that these locals were part of the Red Berets?
9 A. Well, once the locals finished their training, they went back to
10 their respective units. They weren't part of the Red Beret as a
12 Q. And during their training, what would they be wearing?
13 A. All the people who were in training had camouflage uniforms, and
14 they all had red berets.
15 Q. Can you describe what kind of berets were worn by other units in
17 A. The Red Berets had only red caps, whereas members of the military
18 police had black berets. Regular police had -- local regular police had
19 grey-bluish berets, and the army had camouflage caps or ordinary caps.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I'd ask that Exhibit P143 be placed on the monitor
21 in front of the witness. This is a payment list of the special unit in
22 Doboj for May 1992.
23 Q. Sir, can you see this clearly in front of you? Can you see the
24 list in front of you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, you discussed this exhibit in your statement. It's referred
2 to there as 65 ter 5011. And you stated at paragraph 34:
3 "I recognise the group of Bozovic and his men."
4 Who is Radojica Bozovic?
5 A. I heard of him being a member of the Red Berets. I never met him
6 personally, but I did hear that he was a member of the Red Berets.
7 Q. Looking down the list, I notice that the English on the
8 right-hand side is clearer, but since it's names, I believe they would be
9 spelled the same. Are you able to read them? Can you see one of the
10 versions clearly? Okay.
11 A. Yes, yes, I can.
12 Q. Looking down the list, do you recognise anyone else on the
14 A. I recognise Nenad Kujundzic and Dragan Markovic.
15 Q. Okay. Now, dealing with them one at a time, who was Nenad
17 A. Nenad Kujundzic was the brother of Predrag Kujundzic.
18 Q. And do you know if he was a member of any unit, from your
20 A. He was, but I don't know whether he was in the Red Berets or not.
21 All I know is that he was -- he had a military engagement with SUP.
22 Q. And do you know where he was from?
23 A. From Suvo Polje.
24 Q. And where is Suvo Polje?
25 A. Suvo Polje is located at Mount Ozren, and it's a village not far
1 from the town of Doboj
2 Q. Do you know what happened to Nenad Kujundzic?
3 A. I know that Nenad Kujundzic was killed on the 12th of July, 1992
4 Q. Do you -- now, you also said you recognised Markovic,
5 Dragan Markovic. Who is he?
9 Q. Can you tell us, looking at the list, if you recognise any of the
10 other names as people that were in the regular police force?
11 A. No, not on this list. I don't recognise any names of any people
12 known to me.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: I have no further questions on this document.
14 I would now ask that Exhibit P89 be placed on the monitor before
15 the witness. It is a letter with the heading "Group of Crnogorac," with
16 13 names.
17 Q. Sir, this is another document that you also discussed in your
18 statement referred to as 65 ter 5012 were you stated, again, the same
19 statement that you would recognise the group of Bozovic. Do you
20 have -- just as it's being enlarged -- just wait. Okay. Now that you
21 can see it before you, do you have any observations about the names that
22 you see on this list?
23 A. Well, I can see that, again, Nenad Kujundzic's name appears.
24 Q. And is there anything that you can recognise in these names? Are
25 these names -- sorry, go ahead.
1 A. Well, I recognise, again, the last name of Bozovic.
2 Q. And do you see the names of anybody that was in the regular
3 police, to your knowledge?
4 A. No. There's no one on this list that used to be in the regular
6 Q. Are there any names that you recognise as commonly local names?
7 A. Some of these last names are not very typical of the area of
8 Doboj itself.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: I have no further questions on this document. And
11 would I like to briefly turn to private session.
12 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN:
8 Q. Sir, did there come a time that the Red Beret unit left Doboj?
9 A. Well, sometime in September there were no Red Berets in the Doboj
10 area any longer.
11 Q. And what happen to the local men they had trained?
12 A. The locals who had been trained by the Red Berets went back to
13 their respective units from which they came to attend the training.
14 Q. Did they continue to wear red berets?
15 A. Yes, of course. These people who underwent training maintain --
16 Q. Was there ever --
17 A. -- maintained the red berets as one of their insignias.
18 Q. Was there ever an official position on wearing red berets?
19 A. I know that already in 1993 these people were banned from wearing
20 the red berets. Even those wearing them had their red berets
22 Q. Do you know who issued the decree -- or the ban, I should say.
23 A. Well, I don't know who did that officially, but I know that it
24 was enforced, that this kind of insignia was banned.
25 Q. I would now like to ask you about a group that called itself
1 Predo's Wolves. You stated at paragraph 22 of your statement that they
2 were part of the police and that they "wore green camouflage uniforms and
3 were considered to be some sort of special platoon but they were
4 extremely undisciplined."
5 When was this unit formed?
6 A. The name of this unit was Predo's Wolves, and it had been
7 established before I came to the camp, and they were active even at the
8 time when I left the camp. Can you please repeat the remainder of your
10 Q. Well, I asked when it had been established, and you said before
11 you came to the camp. So if you have any further precise detail, that
12 would be helpful. Otherwise, it's okay too.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 3591 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN:
21 Q. Witness, you testified about Predo's Wolves travelling from their
22 base in Suvo Polje to Doboj. Do you know if they had any sort of base in
24 A. Some of his men were billeted in the police centre, formerly the
25 retirement home.
1 Q. Is this the same location you mentioned with respect to the
2 Red Berets yesterday?
3 A. Yes, yes. That's the same location.
4 Q. And when did this retirement home become a police centre?
5 A. Well, as soon as war started in the area, that was converted into
6 the police centre.
7 Q. Were there any regular police station there?
8 A. Both the regular police and Predo's units -- unit.
9 Q. And out of Predo's units, two bases, do you know which was the
10 logistical headquarters, if any?
11 A. Well, the logistics headquarters was in Suvo Polje.
12 Q. And if you have not already explained, what's the relationship,
13 just so we have it clear, between Suvo Polje and Ozren, the geographical
15 A. Ozren is a mountain near Doboj. It has several villages, maybe
16 over 40 villages, and second village counting from Doboj is Suvo Polje.
17 Q. What kind of weapons did Predo's Wolves use?
18 A. They had automatic weapons of the former JNA. They had some
19 sub-machine-guns. They had an armoured combat vehicle with three
21 Q. Did they wear anything on their heads, any sort of berets?
22 A. They had some kind of camouflage berets of a grey-green colour.
23 Q. Did they wear any patches?
24 A. They had a patch with a wolf image. This was not their official
25 name, but they called themselves Predo's Wolves.
1 Q. And do you know of any of Predo's Wolves?
2 A. Well, I know quite a quite a few people by sight. We just met in
3 the street.
4 Q. Could you tell the difference between them and the Red Berets?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. At paragraph 27 of your statement, you stated that:
7 "The Red Berets were under the Serbian MUP. When they came to
8 the RS, the Red Berets officially came under the RS MUP. Officially, but
9 only officially, they were part of the CSB Doboj."
10 This also relates to your testimony yesterday at T3572 that:
11 "The Red Berets belonged to the Doboj centre of public security."
12 Can you be more specific about what you mean about this -- how
13 these foreign people were officially part of the CSB Doboj?
14 A. Well, the very fact that they were stationed in the SUP building
15 and their coming and going into the SUP building meant that they were
16 probably under the jurisdiction of the CSB Doboj.
17 Q. And when they left, did you know of any official order to disband
19 A. I don't know about any official order. All I know is that they
20 left this area soon thereafter, and they never reappeared.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I think I might be nearing the end
22 of an hour and a half. I'm not sure. I have one more short line of
23 questioning, about nine questions, if that's okay.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Nine questions would take approximately how much
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would say probably five minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes is fine. Please proceed.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN:
4 Q. Sir, after being released from Percin's Disco, did everything
5 return to normal for the people from your village?
6 A. After I left the camp, very soon after that, other detainees were
7 released as well. They went home. Most of them had work obligations.
8 Some had to work for the army in their farms, some had to dig trenches,
9 but, as I said, more or less all of them had this work obligation.
10 Q. And was the work obligation also for those in other nearby
12 A. The majority of those people had work obligation. That applied
13 to everyone who had been in the camp.
14 Q. Was there any armed resistance in Doboj and the surrounding area
15 between 1992 and 1995?
16 A. Can you please repeat the question?
17 Q. Certainly. I asked if there was any armed resistance in Doboj
18 and the surrounding area between 1992 and 1995.
19 A. I don't understand. Are you talking about combat operations
20 around Doboj or within the town of Doboj
21 clarify that for me.
22 Q. Yes, absolutely. We're talking about a period when the town was
23 occupied, and I'm curious about the people who were performing work
24 obligations, the people who lived in this region, if there was -- if they
25 were participating in resistance against the occupiers.
1 A. No. There was no resistance as far as the people in town itself
2 were concerned, as well as in the villages where we were taken from.
3 Q. And in paragraph 31 of your statement, you refer to -- you state:
4 "In September 1995, 12 buses left."
5 From a location in this area and the surroundings of Doboj. And
6 how many people would fit onto each bus?
7 A. Between 50 and 60 people.
8 Q. Is that per bus?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you present for this -- were you present when the buses
12 A. I was present when these buses departed. The buses went in the
13 direction of the border with the Republic of Croatia
14 police, and the population crossed the River Sava and went to the
15 Republic of Croatia
16 Q. Do you know what prompted them to leave?
17 A. The people from that area moved out because there was a mass
18 migration of Serbs from Croatia
19 security reasons, in order to ensure the security of the people in those
20 areas, the Croats moved out to the Republic of Croatia
21 organised by the local authorities and the Catholic church that was
22 active in those areas.
23 Q. Okay. And I'm coming to my final two questions. Now, in
24 paragraph 31 of your statement, you say:
25 "Muslims from Doboj were expelled across the front lines."
1 When did this occur?
2 A. That, too, occurred in September 1995.
3 Q. How did it come about?
4 A. The people who lived in Doboj town of Muslim ethnicity were sent
5 or rounded up at the Doboj stadium, and from there they were transferred
6 to the front line and, from there, on to the other side.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: I have no further questions for the witness at
9 this time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Friedman.
11 Is it the Stanisic Defence or the Simatovic Defence who will
12 first cross-examine the witness?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Simatovic Defence, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-008, you'll now be cross-examined by
15 Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic, and he is standing
16 over there.
17 Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Good afternoon to all in and around the courtroom.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. I will begin from the end and not as I had originally planned, so
24 I will begin with the last questions that were put to you by my learned
1 You said that in 1995 Muslims were expelled across the front line
2 from Doboj.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I have a request for you, since we have a slightly different
5 situation now during this questioning. Since we are both speaking the
6 same language, please wait for my question to be translated so that then
7 you can reply.
8 So do you know that in this operation to move -- to transfer the
9 Muslim population one of the actors and participants in this operation
10 was the Red Cross, the International Red Cross?
11 A. Not at this point in time.
12 Q. When you say "not at this point in time," what time are you
13 referring to?
14 A. Well, I'm referring to the day when the people moved out. There
15 were no Red Cross representatives there.
16 Q. What day was that when you were transferred?
17 A. This was in August, I believe around the 25th of August. And I'm
18 talking about the place that I described earlier. The population was
19 moved to the Republic of Croatia
20 representatives at the time there.
21 Q. When you said now to the Republic of Croatia
22 was a misunderstanding between us. I'm now just confining my question to
23 the Muslim population.
24 So were there -- was there any involvement of the Red Cross in
25 their transfer across the front line, as you said?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know that there was another witness of Muslim ethnicity
3 who testified here under protective measures?
4 Just let me ask you this: What year are we talking about here?
5 A. Well, I'm talking about 1995, and I'm only referring to Doboj
6 town, nothing else.
7 Q. Very well. You said, and you were talking about the Croatian
8 population, and you reiterated this today, and I see that you said the
9 same thing during the proofing session, you said that the transfer of the
10 Croatian population to the Republic of Croatia
11 Operation Storm which had begun in Krajina, and it was expected that
12 there will be -- there would be a great influx of Serb refugees from
13 the -- from Croatia
14 A. Well, that's precisely it.
15 Q. And in this transfer of the Croatian population, the Catholic
16 church participated in it, didn't it?
17 A. Yes, in co-operation with the Doboj authorities and the Catholic
18 church that had its seat in Banja Luka.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] ... Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. So you will agree with me that the Croatian population, in 1995,
22 moved out of Doboj with the assistance of the Catholic church,
23 anticipating the threat that might actually materialise if these people
24 from Krajina came in?
25 A. Well, yes. The population was transferred precisely because
1 there was an expectation that there would be a huge influx of Serbs, and
2 for security reasons these people were transferred to the
3 Republic of Croatia
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. BAKRAC: Could we now, please, Your Honours, move to private
6 session briefly out of an abundance of caution.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 3601-3603 redacted.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Witness, the unit called Vukovi is Vucjaka, Wolves from Vucjak,
2 with their commander Veljko Milankovic, also wore red berets; correct?
3 A. Well, some of its members, yes; not all of them. But this was
4 the unit that came to my -- my home village before the war had actually
5 started, sometime in March or April, thereabout.
6 Q. Well, but if I understand you correctly, most members of that
7 unit had red berets; correct?
8 A. Yes, I do know that they, too, wore red berets.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The answer was "some of them, but not all," and then
10 to translate that into "most members" is at least giving evidence rather
11 than repeating what the witness said. But he has said that they, too,
12 wore red berets.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and I
15 apologise for that. That was my understanding of his words. It wasn't
16 deliberate on my part.
17 Q. Witness, please tell us, and I don't think there is a need to
18 move to private session, tell us about Percin Disco. There were about
19 300 men there, 350 men; correct?
20 A. Well, that was by our counting, 310 to 320; 350 would be the
21 maximum number. I do recall the figure of 312 at one point, but it's not
22 very definitive. It's not final.
23 Q. That area, the space, was pretty small so that the 300 of you who
24 were there, you could practically only stand there. There was only
25 standing room; correct?
1 A. Well, the area was so small, and you can believe me, we all sat
2 there with our legs folded, and we were one on top of the other. We were
3 sort of like sardines in a can.
4 Q. So that means all the way to the door?
5 A. Well, yes, all the way to the door. And sometimes the guards
6 would not allow us to actually take up all the space to the door.
7 Q. In other words, it was overcrowded. And, on that critical night,
8 on the 12th of July, the critical evening when those people were taken
9 out to be used as live shields, human shields, you were away from the
10 door because you were not chosen as one of those 50 people who were taken
11 on the to be used as human shields; correct?
12 A. Yes. I was quite far from the door.
13 Q. So, Witness, we heard testimony of one of the people who had
14 actually been taken out, a protected witness, and he said that only one
15 person entered the disco and took 50 men out.
16 In light of that fact and in light of the fact that you've just
17 shared with us that you were some distance away from the door, I put it
18 to you that, in fact, only one man came to take those 50 men out, because
19 it was impossible for more men to get in because the disco was
20 overcrowded, and you, because you were so far away from the door, were
21 not in a position to actually see it.
22 A. I have to say to you that this is not correct. Three people
23 entered the camp. I was not that far away, and I was able to see who got
24 in. The distance was maybe from here to here, so it's not -- from this
25 wall down to the distance is about halfway down here, down to here. So
1 you have to understand that's how it was.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
3 suitable time for our break, because I will have -- I will now embark
4 upon a line of questioning that will take us some time. So this will be
5 a suitable time for a break, in our view.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
7 We'll take a break, and we will resume at 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness, sir, before the break we talked about how the disco was
13 overcrowd and how you were in the interior and how there were at least 50
14 people or so ahead of you. During your proofing session on the
15 16th of February with the Prosecutor, did you tell the Prosecutor that
16 the three people that you claim entered did -- that they said "Bre, you
17 motherfuckers"? Is that what you said?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We don't have that in the proofing notes, and we only heard that
20 from you yesterday. And in paragraph 17 of your statement, you state
21 that the Red Berets, and by their accent itself it could be seen that
22 those people who were in those areas were from Serbia. And then you go
23 on to say:
24 "They forced the people out in order to use them as a human
1 So yesterday was, in fact, the first time that you say that they
2 actually said "Bre, you motherfuckers."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you recall that for the first time now, 18 years after the
6 A. Well, I was able to remember that very clearly.
7 Q. In paragraph 17, you say:
8 "They forced the people out into a human shield, to use them as a
9 human shield."
10 Did you know at the time why they were taking them out?
11 A. No, not at the time. I learnt that later from my brother. I
12 learnt later what had happened to them.
13 Q. Witness, this is the first time that you say this phrase, "bre,
14 bre, you motherfuckers," and you claim that that is characteristic for
15 people from Serbia
16 A. Well, I know that it is not used in our area, in the area where
17 I'm from. I don't know if people from Montenegro say that, if it is used
18 in Montenegro
19 Q. And do you know if it's used in Croatia?
20 A. No, I don't think so.
21 Q. No.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to be
23 shown Exhibit P150 marked for identification. It is a Prosecution
24 exhibit. It is a document from Republika Srpska. Could we please look
25 at the last page. That's page 3 in B/C/S. We have the B/C/S. We don't
1 have the English translation for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution.
2 Q. So this is the response by the Prosecution, and let me read about
3 this group that you testified about when my learned friend showed you the
4 list, and it says:
5 "The above-mentioned group numbered between 10 and 13 members.
6 The only written record referring to it is the list payroll for May 1992
7 produced by the Finance and Technical Department of the then security
8 services centre of Doboj listing the following names."
9 So my first question is whether it is clear from this letter and
10 whether this jibes with what you know, that these people were financed by
11 the security services centre in Doboj through the Finance and
12 Technical Department.
13 A. Well, we've looked at the list that was shown to me a little
14 while ago. It was here on the screen.
15 Q. Could you please answer just yes or no so that we don't waste
17 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, develop a speed of speech which is
18 still manageable, please.
19 The first question was whether it is clear from that letter and
20 whether this, apparently which is in accordance with your knowledge, that
21 these people were financed by the security services centre in Doboj
22 through the Finance and Technical Department. Could you answer that
23 question, although -- and then mainly, I take it, whether it's -- whether
24 it's congruent with your knowledge, because what the letter says is
25 another matter.
1 Could you answer that question.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that they were
3 financed through the -- this department or the Doboj SUP until I saw the
4 list of those individuals that was shown to me.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, I will now draw your attention to the names that are
7 listed here, and the last name is Nenad Kujundzic, who was killed in
8 1992. And he is the only person on that list from the group who was
9 actually from the Doboj area. It is assumed that the rest of them were
10 from the then Yugoslavia
11 A. Well, the only name that I recognise from the list is
12 Nenad Kujundzic that you see.
13 Q. Witness, please tell me, for instance, Dvor Subotic -- when the
14 Prosecutor asked you some questions a little while ago, you said that
15 most of those names are not specific to Bosnia and Croatia
16 now go name by name. Dvor Subotic. Would you agree with me that this is
17 name that sounds like a Croatian name, a person from Croatia?
18 A. Well, I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I object to the question, because it is not the
21 witness's evidence that they weren't names from Bosnia or Croatia
22 only spoke about the region that he comes from, and it's clear in his
23 answer. If I have a moment, I can find it, or.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Bakrac, that's also my recollect. If you
25 put to the witness part of his testimony, could you always be very
1 accurate. So if you would please phrase your question again, and then
2 with the proper quotation.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to find
4 this, but it seems to me that he said most of those names were not from
5 the area, but not all of them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that was not the issue raised by
7 Ms. Friedman, I take it. It was not the "most or all," but it was what
8 he referred to exactly. And I can find it for you. It is page 11,
9 where -- but that would be in private session, I take it. Well,
10 reference was made: "Do you recognise as commonly local names." That's
11 at least what I find, line 22.
12 "Some of these last names are not very typical of the area of
13 Doboj itself."
14 That is what the witness said. So if you put part of his
15 testimony to him, please do it in an accurate way. You may proceed.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Dvor Subotic, can you determine where that person could be from
18 the former Yugoslavia
19 A. Well, I don't know. I've not a clue.
20 Q. Very well, Witness. Let us move on then. We will not waste any
21 more time on this.
22 You said in your statement, in paragraph 22, when you testified
23 about Preda Kujundzic and his Wolves, that you could see all kinds of
24 clothes and headgear. I put it to you that when you said "various kinds
25 of clothes and headgear," you were referring to camouflage hats and red
1 berets. Is that not so?
2 A. Well, various units had various insignia or hats, headgear, caps.
3 Q. Sir, my question is very clear. I claim that Preda's Wolves wore
4 red berets and camouflage hats. Is that so?
5 A. Preda's Wolves did not wear red berets. I have to answer you
6 like this. Please do not suggest those things to me.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if counsel is not -- is seeking to
8 challenge your earlier testimony, he can do that by saying, "I put it to
9 you that this is the case," and then you say, "I agree," or,
10 "I disagree." So it's not an unusual way of putting a question, but
11 whatever any counsel puts to you, tell us what you know, and if you
12 disagree what -- with what is put to you, just tell us. Yes?
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 I would like to direct your attention, Your Honours, to the
16 testimony of B1778, a protected witness, who had also been taken out of
17 the disco to be used as human shield. It's at page 2312. And --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Friedman.
19 MS. FRIEDMAN: I object in anticipation for what the question is
20 going to be, because while it is perfectly proper to put a proposition to
21 a witness, "You claim this; isn't the other true?" Like, "You say there
22 were three men; wasn't is only one?" That's proper. And it's also
23 proper to later argue that witnesses have testified differently and which
24 version you think should be accepted; but it is improper to put to one
25 witness the evidence of another, particularly in trying to suggest that
1 the evidence of the other should have more value for some reason.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first -- one second, please.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We turn to private session.
5 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So, Witness, you told us here that Preda's Wolves did not wear
3 red berets. I put it to you that this is not correct, that you're not
4 telling the truth. So we had a witness here who was asked the following:
5 "Preda Kujundzic was the leader of what group?"
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, now you're exactly doing what I told you
7 not to do, that is, to suggest that another answer was better. You are
8 combining the reference to this other testimony to this witness not
9 telling the truth, and that's exactly what I said was inappropriate. You
10 may put it to a witness, and if, at the very end, you want to put to the
11 witness that he's not telling the truth, you do that after.
12 So would you please pay more attention to my guidance. And I
13 then take it that you want to literally quote. Is that ... then I'm --
14 please put the question to the witness.
15 If someone else said something different, that could be the case.
16 Perhaps you have an explanation for it; perhaps that other person is
17 wrong; perhaps you may have made a mistake. Therefore, if you listen to
18 what another witness said, as Mr. Bakrac will put to you, then tell us
19 how you understand this or whether you have an explanation. If so, fine.
20 If not, we'll proceed anyhow. Yes?
21 Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
23 apologise. I'm going to quote to this witness.
24 Q. The witness was asked the following:
25 "Predrag Kujundzic was the leader of which group?"
1 The witness answered:
2 "He was the leader of the Red Berets."
3 And then he went on to say, to confirm that when he was taken
4 out, he saw it in front of Percin's Disco, next to the armoured vehicle.
5 So does this testimony perhaps help you in refreshing your memory
6 to the effect that Preda's Wolves wore red berets as well?
7 A. Preda's Wolves did not wear red berates.
8 Q. All right. This is your assertion. Did you ever heard about the
9 group of Mice from Doboj?
10 A. Yes, I've heard of them, but I've never saw -- I've never seen
12 Q. Do you know that the Mices also wore red berets?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. Have you ever heard of Karaga?
15 A. Yes, I've heard of him.
16 Q. Do you know which group Karaga belonged to?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you used to see him in Doboj?
19 A. No, definitely.
20 Q. You've never seen him in Doboj?
21 A. Yes, I saw him in Doboj after I left the camp, but you are asking
22 me about the period before I left the camp.
23 Q. I apologise. I wasn't precise enough and clear.
24 Once you left the camp or -- before you went to camp, had you
25 seen Karaga?
1 A. No. I saw him only two years later. I had never known who --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question
3 due to overlapping.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The interpreters could not translate
5 the question, because you are speaking at the same time or approximately
6 at the same time. [B/C/S on English channel]. I confused the
7 interpreters even more.
8 Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. When you saw Karaga, did he had a red beret on?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. Witness, you did not see for yourself what was
13 happening in front of Percin's Disco when the 50 men were taken out; you
14 heard about this event from your brother?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did your brother tell you who exactly he saw, what kind of forces
17 he saw in front of Percin's Disco?
18 A. When the men were taken out, they were ordered to strip naked to
19 the waist, and there were army and police forces, and also Preda's units
20 were there.
21 Q. Did your brother tell you also that in front of the disco he
22 didn't hear anyone speaking in a different accent than the one spoken in
24 A. When the men were taken out, the three members of the Red Berets
25 took him -- took them away to those units that were nearby.
1 Q. Did he tell you which language, which dialect those people spoke,
2 all those people, the army, the police, Preda's group, and the others?
3 A. All those members who were outside were from our area.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm going, now, to see whether there is a
5 congruence between a statement given by Witness B1778, transcript page
7 Before this, a question was posed concerning all the men outside
8 the Percin Disco who had taken out those 50 Croats and Bosniaks to serve
9 as a human shield. The witness was asked if he were able to confirm that
10 all these people spoke in a local dialect. And this particular witness
11 was there on the spot. He said, Yes, they all spoke in a local dialect
12 with the exception of the Montenegrin.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. Mr. Bakrac has again said -- has referred to
15 this witness who was there on the spot trying to suggest to the witness
16 who is here today that his evidence is somehow less valuable after having
17 asked him particularly whether his brother told him what was said. He
18 said it -- and -- and he's admitted candidly that it's something that he
19 heard from his brother, and then he's faced with -- with this sort of
20 attempt to discredit him, which is inappropriate.
21 JUDGE ORIE: What others witnesses have say, Mr. Bakrac, of
22 course, is -- is not in any way indicative for what the brother told this
23 witness. These are two different matters. I mean, it can be that the
24 brother either observed different things, perceived matters in a
25 different way, told it in a way which is not accurate. There are many
2 So therefore, if you put to a witness, after you have explored
3 the matter with him, what another witness told about the same event,
4 that's -- as I said before, that's not in itself inappropriate if you do
5 it in a -- in such a way that it is not in any way intimidating or
6 leading inappropriately the witness. You may lead the witness, but --
7 but, of course, within certain -- Mr. Bakrac.
8 So therefore -- but here it seems to be a different matter, that
9 the witness told us what he heard from his brother. Now, whether his
10 brother was accurate in what he told the witness, that's of course -- I
11 mean, to put to the witness what someone else said about an event which,
12 not this witness but the witness's brother experienced, doesn't make that
13 much sense.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.
15 I'm not trying to intimidate this witness. All I did was ask him whether
16 what he heard from his brother, and I think he did confirm that, that
17 what his brother told him about the events corresponds to what the
18 witness said, that is to say that all those people outside spoke in a
19 local dialect with the exception of one single man who was a Montenegrin.
20 So my question, without any intention of intimidating him, was whether
21 his evidence corresponds to what he knows based on what he heard from his
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can ask if it corresponds what he heard
24 from his brother. That's where it ends. What he knows is, of course,
25 his knowledge about what his brother told him. Please proceed.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but the
2 Prosecutor's not allowing me to finish. Then we have a ten-minute break
3 in my line of questioning --
4 JUDGE ORIE: When I said please proceed, you may proceed.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Witness, what I read out to you, the eyewitness claiming that
7 everybody spoke in a local dialect with the exception of one man who
8 spoke in a Montenegrin accent, does that correspond to what you heard
9 from your brother?
10 A. Well, this is what I'm going to tell you: These three members of
11 the Red Berets, after they had taken out these men for a human shield,
12 they took them away. I explained that. They forced them to strip naked
13 up to the waist, and they placed them at the disposal of all the people
14 who were there. That's my answer. Do you understand me?
15 Q. Yes, I do.
16 Now, Golub Maksimovic, was he one of the persons that you saw
17 outside Percin's Disco on the 12th of July?
18 A. No, I didn't see him outside of disco, but his photo was shown to
19 me in the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I recognised him as
20 Golub Maksimovic.
21 Q. Was Golub Maksimovic a member of Preda's Wolves?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was Golub Maksimovic from the Doboj area?
24 A. Yes, he was.
25 Q. Witness, in your statement, Exhibit P257, in paragraph 29, you
1 said as follows:
2 "The Red Berets had special patches distinct from the ones of
3 the regular police. I have seen footage on TV on the Red Berets of the
4 Serbian MUP where I have seen the same insignias as I had seen in the
5 Doboj area."
6 Sir, I'm asking you what kind of patches were those? Can you
7 please describe them?
8 A. At that moment, I know that this coat of arms looked a little bit
9 different than the standard Nemanjic coat of arms, which is a two-headed
10 eagle. But it looked kind of open. I don't know how to explain to you.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at Exhibit P255.
12 Specifically, photograph number 32.
13 Q. Is this the insignia that you recognised?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is it similar to this one? When you say the Nemanjic coat of
16 arms, what kind of coat of arms is that?
17 A. Well, a two-headed eagle, only I think without the cross and the
18 four Ss in the centre. That's what I think. I can't remember every
20 Q. So it's similar to this coat of arms, a two-head eagle without
21 the cross and the four Ss; the rest was identical?
22 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
23 Q. Now, I put to you that actually you have shown to us a patch that
24 the MUP of Serbia never wore, nor did they wear any similar patch, and
25 that you have fabricated this whole testimony based on film footage that
1 you saw on TV.
2 A. No. I see this is the coat of arms worn by the
3 Army of Republika Srpska. We just made some corrections. I cannot
4 recall exactly how it looked like.
5 Q. Yes, you explained that to us. And I am putting to you that
6 actually, based on the footage that you have seen at a later stage, you
7 claim that somebody from the MUP of Serbia took part in the events around
8 Percin's Disco.
9 A. I have to -- to answer to you by saying the following: Three
10 members of the Red Berets entered the camp. That's beyond dispute. They
11 took people out to act as a human shield. You're constantly trying to
12 suggest that I know nothing about this.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 3623-3636 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 As I said before, we should have gone into private session before
6 we took the break.
7 Mr. Jordash, are you ready?
8 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-008, you'll now be cross-examine by
10 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Let me just start by asking you
15 about the general population of Doboj in May -- April, May, and
16 June of 1992. Were there any -- was -- was there a number of Serbian men
17 within the municipality at that time, or was it rare to meet a Serbian
18 within Doboj at that time?
19 A. Well, in the municipality of Doboj
20 lived side by side.
21 Q. And when the conflicts began, when the mistrust between the
22 different ethnic groups began in 1992, was there an influx of men from
25 A. No.
1 Q. So the population remained the same. No paramilitary groups or
2 members of paramilitary groups from Serbia entered the Doboj municipality
3 during April of 1992 from what your observed?
4 A. I don't know about April absolutely.
5 Q. What about May? Did any Serbian men of a fighting age come into
6 the Doboj municipality to help the fighting effort?
7 A. Well, the first time that I saw people who had come from the
8 outside it was when I was in the camp. I'm not aware of any prior
10 Q. So the first Serbians who you say had come into the municipality
11 were those you term Red Berets at the camp. Is that really the case?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly move away from the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. Okay. If that's your answer. Could I suggest that there were
17 many Serbian men, being sent by political parties based in Serbia, being
18 sent to join the war effort in the Doboj municipality? Could that be the
19 case? Isn't that what was happening?
20 A. Well, I don't know about that.
21 Q. We can move on.
22 Andrija Bjelosevic was the chief of the security centre in Doboj
23 in early 1992; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And under him was -- were a number of companies of police
1 officers; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. The centre of the security -- or the security centre in Doboj --
4 sorry, let me strike that.
5 The SUP
6 that time; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There were six companies who were command by Bjelosevic; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Each company had about 110 persons, 110 police officers; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Those companies were or engaged in combat commanded by --
15 ultimately commanded by Bjelosevic; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were there other units answerable to Bjelosevic at that time
18 other than the six companies?
19 A. Well, he was the chief of the centre in charge of the police, but
20 only of the police.
21 Q. When you say "the police," did the police consist of just the six
22 companies, or were there other units which were answerable to Bjelosevic?
23 A. Well, he was in charge only of the police.
24 Q. And the police consisted of just the six companies with 110 men
25 in each company; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And each company had a commander; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who report directly or indirectly to Bjelosevic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when the companies were ordered into combat, do you know who
7 gave the orders to that particular company? Who ordered them into
9 A. Well, I assume it was the chief of the centre.
10 Q. Bjelosevic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And do you know if those companies were ever ordered into combat
13 by the army at that time, April, May, June of 1992, or were they only
14 ever order by Bjelosevic?
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 3641-3642 redacted.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. JORDASH:
1 Q. I'm taking you to the time of the 12th of July when the human
2 shield was formed. There were, from what you've told us, Red Berets
3 present, but there were also several units from the army and the police
4 present at the scene; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Taking part in forcing the prisoners to be a human shield. Is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the units of the army and the police, are you able to give an
10 estimation of the numbers involved in conducting the human shield?
11 A. No, I cannot, because I was not outside at the time.
12 Q. You didn't hear any information about that later?
13 A. Well, there was a huge number of people, because there was
14 fighting on both sides. So there was a huge number of people, but I
15 can't give you the figure.
16 Q. And so you can't say who was or wasn't in command at that time on
17 the Serbian side?
18 A. Well, there were all kinds of units there, members of the army,
19 of the police, Preda's unit, the Red Berets. They were all there in a
20 single place, so I really can't give you the exact information about
22 Q. Now, you did say earlier today that you observed training by the
23 Red Berets of local men, and once the local men had been trained, they
24 would wear red berets; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And those men, once they'd been trained, would then return to
2 their regular unit; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And those regular units could be units of the police and units of
5 the army or just one or the other?
6 A. Well, there were both of them.
7 Q. So is this right: Men who were trained -- the local men who were
8 trained received their Red Berets, would then return to their regular
9 units and take orders from those who'd been giving them orders before
10 their training. Is that correct?
11 A. Well, yes. They all returned to their respective units and to
12 their superior officers.
13 Q. So within Bjelosevic's security centre there were a number of
14 Red Berets taking orders from Bjelosevic; is that correct?
15 A. Probably, yes.
16 Q. Well, did you see that or did you not?
17 A. Well, of course I didn't see that. How could that be?
18 MR. JORDASH: Could we go into private, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 3646-3658 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Sir, you were asked about the Wolves of Vucjak, and you stated
9 that -- you were asked whether they wore red berets, and you said:
10 Yes, some of them but, not all of them. This is a unit that came
11 to my home village before the war had actually started, sometime in March
12 or April thereabout.
13 Did you ever see this unit in Doboj?
14 A. Members of those units, Vukovi from Vucjak, did not come to Doboj
16 Q. Moving on now to -- at T30, you were asked about Percin's Disco
17 and observations you were able to make there, and you described where the
18 men who came to the disco were standing, and you made some gestures with
19 your hands, and you said:
20 "The distance was maybe from here to here, so it's not -- from
21 this wall down to the distance is about halfway here, down to here."
22 I just wanted to clarify for the record if you could tell us now
23 in terms of where the men were standing when they came to the disco.
24 Which wall did you want to use to orient us? Which wall were you
25 referring to?
1 A. Well, I just would like to explain. I was pointing and showing
2 that it was some 15 metres or so from the door where I was. So this was
3 a rather large space. It wasn't tiny. And that's why I said - I was
4 showing with my hand - trying to say that I could actually see the people
5 coming in through the door. That's what I said.
6 Q. Okay. So your evidence is that the people at the door were about
7 15 metres from you, or would you like to -- why don't we now use the
8 courtroom to clarify. If you look at the window behind me, or if you
9 want to use the other one --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to keep matters short. Could you say
11 from -- was it from that wall to wall that, approximately?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I tried to explain the
13 distance, I was saying from that wall over there up to here
14 approximately. That's how far I was from the main entrance. Do you
16 JUDGE ORIE: From that wall?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from that wall up to here
18 approximately, that distance.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was pointing at the wall before which
20 the accused are seated, and then pointed at the middle of the courtroom
21 where the clock is, and would the parties agree that that would be --
22 estimate that it is about, I would say, 10 metres? Comes close to 10
23 metres. Everyone who wants to measure it can put it later on the record.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN:
1 Q. Finally, my last point, at T44, you were examined by Mr. Bakrac,
2 and it was put to you:
3 "... you have fabricated this whole testimony based on film
4 footage that you saw on TV."
5 Have you fabricated your testimony based on film footage?
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness did not
7 receive the interpretation.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you now receive interpretation?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When it was put to you by Mr. Bakrac that you
11 would have made up your whole story on the basis of a TV footage you may
12 have seen, did you agree with that or did you disagree with that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I disagreed with it. I couldn't
14 agree with it, because I was there. So I can't agree with that -- what
15 was put to me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions?
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
18 Q. Do you know what film footage that you saw on TV Mr. Bakrac is
19 referring to?
20 A. Well, that's footage that I saw maybe a year or two ago where
21 they showed the unit itself, and I think that's what he meant. And I
22 think he was just trying to sort of get me off the track what I was
23 trying to explain, actually.
24 Q. So you saw a programme that was call "The Unit," is that right?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Was the programme identified by Mr. Bakrac at all?
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: No, but the witness seems to have an understanding
2 of what --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if Mr. Bakrac doesn't make the effort even
4 to put to the Chamber what the programme would have been and therefore
5 disenabling the Chamber to verify what is implied in the suggestion, why,
6 then, in re-examination, would you try and -- if the Chamber would be
7 interested to know, we would have asked Mr. Bakrac. But Mr. Bakrac
8 didn't even make the effort. So, therefore, that is -- well, if you want
9 to proceed, please do so.
10 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour, to intervene, but it is in the
11 witness's Rule 92 ter statement at page --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
13 MR. JORDASH: I'm sorry -- at paragraph 29.
14 JUDGE ORIE: 29. Yes. But -- I do agree a reference is there,
15 but we haven't seen anything, is it? Are we in any way in a position to
16 verify what is seen there what that is corresponding with what the
17 witness tells us?
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour, our submission is that you are
19 in a position to verify it. It's a video that's on the Prosecution's
20 65 ter list. And we would suggest that since there is evidence that the
21 witness has fabricated his evidence, we actually tender this for
22 admission. Its 65 ter 2608 to 2610.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So we were not able, but you're now enabling us to
24 verify. Could you -- I do not know whether the footage you're talking
25 about is the same footage as Mr. Bakrac was talking about, because, of
1 course, in the statement, we can't see which 65 ter number -- or is it on
2 your list --
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: The witness -- oh, yes. The statement only -- the
4 statement refers to footage on TV --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: -- of the Serbian MUP, and Mr. Bakrac picked up on
7 it and asked whether he was fabricating due to Serbian TV footage.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: The witness, in his answer, said
10 "The Unit Jedenica," which is the name of the footage. It's clear, I
11 think, that they're talking about same thing.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... response to your question,
13 or is it just -- let me --
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes in response to my following up.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what I would like to do is to invite the
16 parties to agree on whether that is the footage the witness was referring
17 to. We have now his answer. And then we are able to look at it if we
18 want to, but, again, this is a matter which has not -- I mean, if you
19 start exploring a matter which has some importance, then finish that
20 exploration rather than stop it halfway and leave the Chamber with
21 question marks rather than any assistance. That's my point, as a matter
22 of fact.
23 Now everyone is -- I would -- I have no problems in -- I take it,
24 but I should consult.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is quite willing look at the footage
2 which is suggested to be the source of inspiration for the witness. And
3 then at least we know what we are talking about. Until now, we had no
5 MR. JORDASH: I'm sorry to leap up again. It's not strictly my
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. JORDASH: But I'm afraid the witness didn't say the film was
9 called "The Unit." He said the footage showed the unit itself. So we
10 really aren't in agreement that this is the footage -- the footage is the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's ask the witness.
13 You said you had seen a television footage. Do you remember the
14 title of that footage?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I, as a witness, must clarify
16 something here. It's something that was shown on TV. It was seen by the
17 general public. But what I'm saying is not based on what was shown on
18 TV. I'm testifying about the time period when I was in the disco,
19 detained there. So I'm not basing my testimony on this footage that was
20 shown on TV and could be seen by anyone.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Your testimony in this respect is perfectly clear.
22 Let's let there be no doubt about that, that you say, "I didn't testify
23 on the basis of what I saw on television, but I testified on the basis of
24 what I saw at the time when I was detained there." Nevertheless, my
25 question: Do you remember the title of the footage you are referring to
1 that you saw on television?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had to do with Serbia
3 problems in Serbia
4 not really related to the events that I'm now testifying about.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You don't remember the title?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was called "The Unit."
7 That was the name of the programme.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It was called "The Unit," that being clarified.
9 Now, as I said before, the Chamber is -- if there's any --
10 Ms. Friedman.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, we have the video. We're uploading
12 it now, if it would assist, just the opening, to see if the witness could
13 confirm if that's what he saw.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the title is known, if the circumstances
15 under which it -- unless there are two or three items under the name
16 "The Unit" --
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I merely quoted from
18 his statement that he saw video footage about the Serbian MUP. I don't
19 see any reason why this should be dealt with in examination-in-chief.
20 And we oppose this line of questioning. And I merely wanted to see if
21 any footage that he saw on TV might have influenced his views. And it is
22 not proper to conduct the examination-in-chief in the course of the
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber considers the matter to be dealt with.
1 If there's any need for a follow-up, the Chamber will further invite the
2 parties to make further submissions.
3 Was that your last question, Ms. Friedman?
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: Just one point of clarification, Your Honour. We
5 did tender the exhibit. Is there a ruling on whether it's admitted?
6 JUDGE ORIE: The -- you mean in the -- you tendered it?
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: We're tendering it on the basis that there has
8 been --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but when did you tender it?
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: [Overlapping speakers] ... an allegation of --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, at this moment?
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. On basis of the allegation of fabrication,
13 we asked to have it admitted, and I wanted to know if there was a ruling
14 on that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is no ruling on it yet. We'll consider
16 that matter. We don't have to ask the witness unless you consider it
17 really necessary to -- the only thing the witness said is, "I saw
18 similar --" that's the only thing he says. Patches -- I have seen
19 footage on the Red Berets where I have seen the same insignia as I had
20 seen in the Doboj area. That's all he says. Nothing more, nothing else.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: He, though, was asked -- he was told that his
22 whole testimony is based on the film footage, so that's --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: So that was the point, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Asked by apparently Mr. Bakrac not having seen or
1 not having inquired into what the video footage would have been, just on
2 the basis of this, that you suggested this to the witness, Mr. Bakrac.
3 Is that -- you did it purely and exclusively on the basis of what you
4 read in paragraph 29. Is that ...
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's why I
6 don't think that -- examination-in-chief should not be conducted in the
7 course of the re-examination. And, secondly, what can this witness tell
8 us about it? The footage exists. It is in front of you. You can
9 disrule on it. The witness cannot tell us anything more about this
10 footage that would assist you in your decision whether to admit it or
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what was suggested is that he would identify
13 the footage as the one he had seen.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will decide on the matter. Of course,
16 we're not going to admit into evidence anything which we have not seen
17 yet, so therefore there will be an opportunity to further deal with the
19 [Trial Chamber and Senior Legal Officer confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to raise the matter on short -- in
21 the short term.
22 Any further questions?
23 Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Since we are now
25 hopelessly delayed and we cannot start addressing the administrative
1 issues, the housekeeping matters, let me just follow up on what my
2 learned friend Ms. Friedman asked.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
5 Q. Witness, sir, you explained what the distance was between the
6 place where you were and the doorway of Percin's Disco. On the 12th, in
7 the morning, you say that there was gunfire coming from all directions;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it correct that once there was gunfire, the gunfire was heard,
11 everybody stood up?
12 A. Well, some people stood up. Some remained sitting down. We were
13 simply afraid because the gunfire was getting closer and closer.
14 Q. Is it correct that in the 15 metres there were at least 50
15 people -- people who were taken out immediately after that?
16 A. I have to clarify one thing with you.
17 Q. No, please, do not clarify anything with me. I'm asking you: Is
18 it true that there were at least 50 people in front of you --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, if the witness starts his answer by
20 saying, "I have to clarify one thing with you," then he's beginning to
21 answer the question, you should not stop him and say him -- tell him that
22 he should not clarify anything, because that is, apparently, part of his
24 The question that was put to you that in the room you were in,
25 that 50 people were taken out of that, and Mr. Bakrac then referred to
1 the size of the room at least the distance between you and the door.
2 Could you answer that question?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Let me respond. So
4 when you get into the disco itself, the doorway, as soon as you get in,
5 there is a very wide area to the left and to the right. So that's the
6 width of the room. That's the greatest size. So there was a huge number
7 of people to the left and to the right and in front of the doorway
8 itself. And I was about 15 metres away from the doorway, and so I was
9 able to see the people who got in. And I could see the 50 people who
10 were taken out, but they were both in front of me and to the left and to
11 the right. That's what I wanted to explain.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, next question, please.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no
14 further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 This, then, concludes your tell, Witness JF-008. I'd like to
17 thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
18 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
19 Judges. And I would like to -- you don't receive interpretation?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving interpretation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- I started saying that this concludes your
22 testimony, that we would like to thank you very much for coming the long
23 way to The Hague
24 you by the parties and by the Bench. And we wish you a safe return home
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please be so kind to follow the Usher who
3 will escort you out of the courtroom.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to the parties whether they would like to
6 use the remaining eight minutes to start with the housekeeping session or
7 whether we would see each other again tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this
8 same courtroom.
9 Mr. Groome.
10 MR. GROOME: We have no strong views on it Your Honour, whichever
11 pleases --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No strong views.
13 MR. JORDASH: No strong views.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's get started.
15 [Trial Chamber and Senior Legal Officer confer]
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I examined the
17 witness, the housekeeping matters will be addressed by my colleague
18 Mr. Petrovic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's get started. The first one is the joint
20 submission of maps.
21 An agreement exists between the parties on the 22 maps from the
22 map binder. First of all, I would like to clarify which maps we are
23 talking about. In the binder, the maps on which the parties agree that
24 they jointly seek them to be admitted into evidence are the numbers 2, 3,
25 4, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 29, 32, 33, 35, 37,
1 and 38. Those maps are to be uploaded under one exhibit number, all of
2 them together. And I already asked Madam Registrar to assign a number to
3 this -- that series of maps which will be uploaded by the
4 Office of the Prosecution but on joint request.
5 Madam Registrar, could you already assign a number to the series
6 of maps.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P258, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P258, since not yet uploaded, still be marked for
9 identification at this moment, although it's a bit silly to mark
10 something for identification if you've not seen it. But to be uploaded
11 and, once uploaded, to inform the Chamber so that we can change the
12 status from MFI
13 To avoid whatever misunderstanding, other maps of which I did not
14 read out the numbers may already have been admitted into evidence. Some
15 of the maps from the binder are already in evidence and are not included
16 in this P258 number.
17 The Chamber, and I'm now moving to my next subject, the Chamber
18 will give a ruling on the Prosecution's motion for admission of redacted
19 copies of confidential exhibits as public exhibits in due course, but
20 already instructs the Prosecution to prepare and read out short summaries
21 of the written evidence admitted for each witness to inform the public.
22 This should obviously not be done for witnesses with closed session
23 protective measures.
24 Further, the OTP is instructed to file public summaries of past
25 witnesses, that is, C-015, Savic Denona [sic] -- no. I'm misreading.
1 Witness Savic, Witness Denona, Witness Kirudja, Witness Kovacevic,
2 Witness Hadzovic, Witness Miljanic, Witness JF-006, Witness JF-007,
3 Witness JF-005, Witness Tihic, Witness Lazarevic, Witness JF-009. Those
4 are the witnesses.
5 The reasons for all this, enabling the public to follow these
6 proceedings, especially for 92 witnesses are about.
7 I add to the list Witness JF-008 who testified today, of course,
8 to the extent that his testimony was public which was not all of his
10 It's 7.00. We will adjourn for the day, and I announce with some
11 regret that we adjourn until -- until tomorrow.
12 MR. Bakrac: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. Petrovic. I wanted to finish my
14 line by saying until the 19th of -- the 19th of February at 9.00 in the
15 morning. But before I finally do so --
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I only wanted to
17 ask you. I don't know what the procedure is and whether it is necessary
18 to put that on the record. I just wanted to ask you on behalf of my
19 client, Mr. Simatovic, to relieve him of his duty to be here. He doesn't
20 want to be here tomorrow, so I don't know whether -- what's the custom,
21 whether I should really announce it so that it is put on the record.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I wanted to, as a matter of fact, ask the
23 witnesses -- ask the accused whether they wanted to be present or not. I
24 think early already it was this -- Friday morning was arranged for
25 Mr. Stanisic not being present that morning hours that third day in the
1 week. I now see that Mr. Simatovic would prefer not to be present as
2 well. You're both excused. It's the fate of lawyers that they have to
3 attend these meetings. Therefore, it's fully accepted that you'd rather
4 stay out, although it's still part of your case, let there be no doubt
5 about it. And decisions to be announced and matters to be raised are not
6 without substance and not without relevance. But the Chamber accepts
7 your choice.
8 Therefore, we --
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it appears that they do
10 not understand -- they do understand that it's important for their case,
11 but they trust their lawyers.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- trust is a good thing.
13 We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow, 19th of February, 9.00 in the
14 morning in this same courtroom, Courtroom II.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day
17 of February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.