1 Friday, 5 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.41 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, can you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon Your Honours. Good afternoon
7 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-69-T,
8 the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 First of all, we had a late start because the Chamber who
11 occupied this courtroom had to finish up a witness. Second, a matter
12 that should be clearly on the record, Prosecution Exhibit 295, yesterday
13 if it is not clear on the record, it should be clear that it is admitted
14 under seal.
15 Third, the Chamber would like to respond at this stage to the
16 request by the Stanisic Defence to put questions to Dr. Eekhof. The
17 Chamber allows the Stanisic Defence to put questions to Dr. Eekhof in
18 writing. After answers have been received, the Chamber will determine
19 whether there is any need to seek further information than to be given
20 orally by Dr. Eekhof. The Prosecution's argument that it's premature to
21 put questions to Dr. Eekhof prior to the filing of a request for
22 provisional release is rejected.
23 The Prosecution may also formulate questions for Dr. Eekhof to
24 answer which could be relevant for future consideration of provisional
25 release. The Chamber requires the Stanisic Defence to reformulate its
1 questions. The Chamber is concerned by the questions in which matters
2 are raised which fall outside the scope of the expertise of Dr. Eekhof in
3 which sometimes no clear distinction is drawn between facts known and
4 still unknown, existent facts, future facts, and in which it is not
5 always clear what medical expertise could provide us with in respect to
6 those facts.
7 As guidance for the reformulation, the Chamber states following:
8 Questions should focus on changes in circumstances that occurred since
9 December, that is to say since the last decision of the Chamber in
10 respect of provisional release. New facts should be clearly described,
11 not vaguely addressed in the context of possible consequences which they
12 may result in. A clear distinction should be made between facts which
13 are and which are not of a primarily medical character. Medical
14 conclusions should not be asked for if it is obvious that reasonably no
15 answer could be expected which could meaningfully assist the Chamber, or
16 if they at first sight impress as calling for speculative answers.
17 Composite questions are to be avoided to the extent possible. Before the
18 Chamber allows questions to be passed on to Dr. Eekhof, the Chamber will
19 review those questions.
20 Now, I give you finally two examples, one of a question which is
21 totally appropriate to put to Dr. Eekhof, and another one which would not
22 be appropriate to be put to Dr. Eekhof. I'll start with the
23 inappropriate question. Inappropriate would be a question, Could you
24 quantify the effect of continuing the colitis treatment in Belgrade on a
25 poly-clinical basis together with the possible improvement of the state
1 of depression of Mr. Stanisic in terms of the risks that he would be
2 declared unfit to travel back? This is an exaggeration, I am aware of
3 that, but, therefore, perhaps you should focus more on the question that
4 could be appropriately put to Dr. Eekhof. Has the development of the
5 thrombosis in the leg of Mr. Stanisic in the last few weeks been of such
6 nature that it would be a medical obstacle for a flight of approximately
7 three or four hours in the near future? That is a question that could
8 appropriately be put to Dr. Eekhof. Of course, there is a whole range in
9 between, but the Chamber will look very critical at the questions and
10 relevant concrete information which assists is certainly to be sought;
11 however, vague and speculative material is to be avoided. That, as far
12 as the guidance is concerned.
13 If there's no other matter, we could establish whether the
14 videolink is functioning well and hear the evidence of the next witness
15 for which no protective measures are sought. Mr. Groome? Or should I
16 immediately address Ms. Friedman.
17 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Ms. Friedman will be handling
18 Mr. Sutalo, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
20 Then let us establish whether the videolink is functioning well.
21 Could I address the representative of the Registry in the location of the
22 videolink and could I inquire, first of all, whether you can see us well
23 and whether you can hear us well.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon Your Honours.
25 Yes, we can see and hear you well in the videolink room.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The same is true in the opposite direction, we can
2 see and hear you.
3 Could you tell us who are in the room apart from the persons we
4 see, that is, two representatives of the Registrar and what appears to be
5 the witness of this afternoon.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] There is also a technician in the
7 room, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I would like it to address the
9 witness. I do understand it to be Mr. Sutalo.
10 Can you hear me in a language you understand, Mr. Sutalo?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
13 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of this
15 declaration is now handed out to you. If you would please stand and make
16 that solemn declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Sutalo.
20 Mr. Sutalo, you will first be examined by Ms. Friedman.
21 Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution, and you will see her soon on
22 your screen.
23 Ms. Friedman, please proceed.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 WITNESS: LUKA SUTALO
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 [Witness testified via videolink]
3 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sutalo.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Do you recall giving a statement in this case in 1999?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. I would ask that 65 ter number 5254 be placed on the monitor and
9 shown to the witness. This is a 92 bis package which includes a
10 statement dated the 17th of April, 1999, as well as addendum dated
11 18 June 2003. Once again as with JF-017, Your Honours, the B/C/S
12 statement was given paragraph numbers at the time that the addendum was
13 made for the sake of clarity of the addendum. And the Prosecution,
14 therefore, seeks leave to use a numbered version of the English statement
15 in the translation of this exhibit.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the position of the parties is
17 the same as it was in relation to the witness with whom we had a similar
18 issue. Leave is granted.
19 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
20 And I would ask that we first look at the statement dated the
21 17th of April, 1999, which is the 5th page in the B/C/S version of the
22 92 ter package and the third page in the English version.
23 Q. Mr. Sutalo, do you recognise this as your statement from 1999?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And would you please look at the signatures on the bottom of the
1 page. Do you recognise any of them?
2 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: Could the court usher please go to page number 10
4 of both the B/C/S and English versions. In terms of the e-court page
5 number, that's 14 in the B/C/S and 12 in the English.
6 Q. And, Mr. Sutalo, do you recognise any signatures here as well?
7 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
8 Q. Which signature do you recognise, meaning whose signature?
9 A. They are mine.
10 Q. And did you have an opportunity prior to testifying today to
11 review the translation of this statement in your own language?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There is a lot of
14 background noise, we are finding it hard to hear the witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that background noise in the videolink, or does
16 it come from here? Then, perhaps it is caused by the papers, or is it?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the paperers, I believe the microphone on
18 the table is amplifying the sound of the paper rustling.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then the papers are to be kept as far away --
20 rather not move the microphone, but move the papers. That might better
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. When we reviewed your statement last week, was there anything
25 that you wished to change or clarify?
1 A. I wouldn't wish to change anything.
2 Q. Okay. Well, if you recall, I would like to take you to certain
3 parts of your statement and see if after hearing me read it back to you
4 whether there is indeed anything that you wish to change. Is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Paragraph 8 of your 1999 statement discusses the 1st of August,
8 1991, and states as follows:
9 "The mayor of Osijek came on the radio telling all soldiers to go
10 defend Dalj."
11 Do you have any corrections to make to that?
12 A. I didn't hear that. Only when I was there in Serbia for
13 interrogation or questioning, the main commander of the Yugoslav Army
14 told me that that is what he had heard.
15 Q. Now, the first sentence of paragraph 10 of this statement reads:
16 "A third group of tanks, again about 50 in number, came and entered
18 Do you have any corrections to make to that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Do you recall how many tanks entered your village?
21 A. I know just five or six. At that time there weren't more than
23 Q. Okay. So if you saw a group of 50 passing by on the way to
24 Erdut, would you say that -- is it your evidence now that only several of
25 them, five to six entered Erdut and the others passed by in the direction
1 of Dalj?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, paragraph 11 of your statement describes your detention in a
4 factory in Vojvodina. You state that there were two other men who you
5 recognised and you state:
6 "One was Zvonko Tucak from Erdut and the other was called Mata, I
7 don't remember his family name. He was from Dalj."
8 Is there anything you wish to change to that?
9 A. He worked in Dalj, but he was originally from Sonda [phoen].
10 Q. Now, in paragraph 21 when describing the situation in Erdut after
11 the take-over of the JNA forces, you state:
12 "A curfew was imposed and every single street in Erdut had a
13 check-point manned by JNA soldiers."
14 Is there anything you wish to change?
15 A. This was not the JNA. This was some kind of Serbian police.
16 Q. And in paragraph 33 when discussing your interrogation while you
17 were imprisoned at the police station in Dalj, you state:
18 "I learned from others imprisoned with me that the person asking
19 the questions was Colonel Milorad Stricevic" -- sorry, "... was called
20 Milorad Stricevic and that he was a colonel."
21 Is there anything you wish to change?
22 A. Yes. He wasn't a colonel, they just called him colonel.
23 Q. In paragraph 37 when you discuss being transferred to the Borovo
24 police station you state:
25 "Here we were put into a basement that contained approximately
1 half a metre of water."
2 Is there anything you wish to clarify?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Now, can you describe what kind of water was in this
6 A. This was water from the sewer. It stank to high heaven in that
7 room. You couldn't be there.
8 Q. Thank you. And now I will ask for the final clarification, which
9 is in paragraph 47. When describing your release from the Dalj police
10 station, which we will talk about in greater detail later in your
11 testimony, you state that the man who was being referred to as
12 Mr. President:
13 "Said to some soldiers, I'm taking Sutalo, and you will Palinkas
14 to Aljmas to his house. I will look after it."
15 Do you wish to clarify here the word "soldiers"?
16 A. He didn't say that to soldiers, but to policemen.
17 Q. And other than this, is there anything in your statement that you
18 wish to change at this time?
19 A. Well, I don't know what you are going to ask me. When we go
20 through things further, then we'll see.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you do recall, however, that we reviewed this
22 statement last week in your home?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as far as you remember, we have -- now we've gone through
25 several parts of your statement. Is there anything that comes to mind
1 that you remember that was written in the statement that you did not
2 agree with which we haven't discussed already today?
3 A. Well, I really didn't notice.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: And could the court usher please now turn to the
6 addendum which is page 4 in the B/C/S of the package and page 2 in the
8 Q. Mr. Sutalo, the document before you purports to be an addendum to
9 your statement. And it is dated 18 June, 2003. Do you recognise any
10 signatures on it?
11 A. I do. It's my signature too.
12 Q. And prior to your testimony today, did you have a chance to
13 review this addendum in your own language?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are there any changes you wish to make?
16 A. No, no changes. It was Loncarevic, and it probably still is
18 Q. Yes, you are referring to the changes that are already noted
19 there on the addendum; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now that you have taken today the solemn declaration and with the
22 corrections and clarifications that you have made in court today, do you
23 affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of both your 1999 statement and 2003
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions today as you were asked
2 when preparing these documents, would you give the same answers in
4 A. This latest that we have is what it is. I didn't even know him
5 at the time. I don't know how it happened that it's not Loncarevic but
6 Loncevic, I don't know, but, anyway, I do know that he is Loncarevic.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. Your Honours, at this time the
8 Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5254, which is the 92 bis package of this
9 witness dated 18 June 2003, which contains both the statement and
10 addendum into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Now, before we proceed, Mr. Sutalo, your last answer I understood
13 that to be that apart from this one matter of a name, that you would give
14 the same answers in substance if the same questions would be put to you
15 again with all the corrections you've made; is that correct?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am saying that it's
17 Loncarevic and not Loncaric.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And all the rest would remain the same as far as
19 your answers are concerned; is that correct?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? No objections.
22 Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 05254 shall be given
24 Exhibit P00301. Thank you, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The package of two statements and to which number
1 P301 is assigned is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Your Honours, the Prosecution also tenders 65 ter 40 which is an
4 associated exhibit to the witness's 92 ter package. This Exhibit
5 contains photographs which are actually video stills that were shown to
6 the witness and are referred to in the last two paragraphs of his 1999
7 statement. The witness was originally shown colour versions of these
8 photos, but unfortunately the quality of the photos when they were
9 scanned into the 92 bis package is rather poor. I've obtained the better
10 colour copies and have shown them to both Defence teams. They have
11 agreed for these photos to be tendered as 65 ter 40 rather than the
12 poorer quality ones. I also note that these colour photos bear the
13 original ERN which was scanned into the package as well as the ERN
14 corresponding to the better copies. For the convenience of the Chamber
15 and Defence counsel, I've prepared a chart that lists the photos with the
16 two sets of ERNs, so --
17 JUDGE ORIE: And you are seeking the photographs together as one
18 package to be admitted?
19 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, just the good copy with the chart if you so
20 wish for your convenience.
21 JUDGE ORIE: With the chart, so 65 ter would then contain the
22 photographs and the chart.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
25 Mr. Registrar, could you please assign a number to the set of
1 photographs and the chart contained in 65 ter number 40.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The set of photographs also
3 referred to as 65 ter 40 as well as the chart shall be uploaded as
4 Exhibit number P00302. Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P302 has been admitted into evidence. Has it been
6 uploaded already?
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, it has.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then the decision on admission is now final.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Sutalo, do you recall giving testimony before this Tribunal
12 and the 28th of August, 2003, in the Slobodan Milosevic case?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And when we met in preparation for your testimony today, did you
15 have an opportunity to listen to the audio recordings of your testimony
16 in a language you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Having reviewed your testimony, is there anything that you wish
19 to change?
20 A. No, nothing.
21 Q. Do you today affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your prior
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If you were asked the same questions today as you were asked
25 then, would you provide the same answers in substance?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
3 65 ter 5256 which is the prior testimony this witness given in the case
4 against Slobodan Milosevic on 28 August, 2003, into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? Not.
6 Ms. Friedman, have you carefully verified any repetitious
7 elements in that testimony compared to the statements?
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honour, that testimony is rather brief. It
9 contains mostly a summary of the witness with a few clarification
10 questions. It was done pursuant to the 92 bis procedure, whereby it was
11 mainly cross-examination. So it's a short examination by the
12 Prosecution, some cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic, and that
13 cross-examination does cover other areas while the summary is somewhat
14 duplicative, but it is very brief, so for the completeness of the record,
15 we submit it should be admitted.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, since there are no objections, the testimony of
17 in Milosevic, Mr. Registrar, would receive what number?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 5256 shall be admitted as
19 Exhibit P00303. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P303 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Now that the witness's prior evidence has been tendered pursuant
23 to 92 ter, would I like to read a summary of that evidence for the
24 benefit of the public.
25 Mr. Sutalo, please listen as I read this summary.
1 Mr. Luka Sutalo is an ethnic Croat who lived in the village of
2 Erdut in 1991. He provides evidence about the rising tensions in 1990
3 and 1991 and the take-over of Erdut on the 1st of August 1991.
4 Immediately after the take-over, Mr. Sutalo tried to escape to Serbia.
5 However, when he crossed the border, he was arrested, detained, and
6 interrogated before being returned to Erdut.
7 He described the conditions subsequent to the take-over, which
8 included a curfew, restrictions on movement, looting, forced labour, and
9 repeated interrogation by the police.
10 Mr. Sutalo describes being imprisoned for about one month
11 beginning on the 25th of August, in several different locations. He was
12 first taken to the Dalj police station, then a collection centre in
13 Borovo Selo, next the Borovo Selo police station, and finally he was
14 returned to the Dalj police station. Mr. Sutalo states that it was when
15 he was returned to the Dalj police station that, in his words, "the real
16 horror began."
17 Many of the prisoners were constantly beaten and forced to do
18 labour. While Mr. Sutalo was imprisoned in the Dalj police station, he
19 saw Arkan accompanied by three of his men enter the prison, introduce
20 himself, and watch as his men severely beat the prisoners.
21 Mr. Sutalo describes how in late September, he was released from
22 the Dalj police station by Goran Hadzic personally. As they left the
23 police building, Mr. Sutalo saw 30 to 40 Chetniks in front of the yard,
24 including Arkan. Mr. Sutalo learned that another man who was imprisoned
25 with him, Slavko Palinkas was also released that same day, but he never
1 saw the rest of the prisoners again.
2 Mr. Sutalo was eventually granted a permit to leave Erdut in
3 February 1992 after signing over his house and all of his property to the
4 village council.
5 Q. Mr. Sutalo, what I have read is only a summary, it does not serve
6 as your actual evidence in this case. But I want to make sure that it is
7 accurate. So my question to you is whether anything I've said is a
8 mischaracterisation or a misstatement of your evidence?
9 A. Well, it is as you read it. It was like that.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, I will ask you a few more questions today. In
11 paragraph 19 of your 1999 statement, you describe attending a meeting
12 where a form of new local government was elected which included members
13 of all three ethnic groups; Serbs, Croats, and Hungarians. You stated:
14 "Present and in charge of the meeting which lasted about half an
15 hour was Colonel Kosutic who said at the outset that we were there to
16 elect representatives of government, that it wasn't democratic but that
17 it would have to act in a democratic way."
18 So my question to you is whether there were any subsequent
19 meetings involving all three ethnic groups?
20 A. There were a number of meetings but no Croats or Hungarians
21 attended them, only Serbs did.
22 Q. And the Colonel Kosutic that you referred to, was he the same man
23 that questioned you when you were detained in Serbia?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Had you seen him ever in Erdut before that day?
1 A. Yes, on one more occasion.
2 Q. Do you remember when that occasion was?
3 A. That was some seven or eight days later.
4 Q. Okay. So before the meeting on the 5th of August, you did not
5 see him in Erdut, is that your evidence?
6 A. I did see him later on, but not before that. Just the time when
7 he questioned me in Bogojevo.
8 Q. In paragraph 21 you refer to another man at the meeting,
9 Marko Loncarevic who you believe was from Dalj, and you state:
10 "He made a speech and said that this was not Croatia anymore, it
11 was now Serbia, and that the Croat people would not rule anymore and no
12 longer be part of the government."
13 In addition to that --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In addition to that, do you recall anything else that was said
16 that this Loncarevic said?
17 A. Well, just that he said that it was no longer Croatia and that
18 the wheat that was in Erdut, that it would be taken to Serbia and not to
19 Osijek, which was in Croatia.
20 Q. In paragraph 22, you state:
21 "The JNA had their military command HQ in Erdut at my son
22 Dobrislav's house."
23 And did your son offer his house to them?
24 A. No, he was in Germany at the time.
25 Q. How did they come to be in his house then?
1 A. I had the keys to his house.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And a lieutenant came and said that I had to hand over the keys.
4 I tried not to, but under pressure, finally, I had to give it to them.
5 Q. And did soldiers move into other houses as well?
6 A. Yes, they moved in into all the Croatian homes that were empty.
7 Q. And did anyone other than soldiers move into the homes?
8 A. Not in our place, but, yes, in the village because Arkan's men
9 arrived there, and they had a camp for military training, and the Arkan's
10 men moved in there, in other words, Chetniks.
11 Q. And I would like to talk to you now about your detention in the
12 Dalj police station in greater detail. Firstly, did you know the men who
13 were the police officers in Dalj before the war?
14 A. No. At the Dalj police station, there were Croat policemen, but
15 then on the 1st of August, those police officers were killed by them, and
16 later on I didn't see any of them except Cizmic, I recognised him.
17 Q. So just to be clear, the Croat police officers who were in the
18 police station before the war were people that you knew and would have
19 been able to recognise?
20 A. When Yugoslavia broke up, Serbs left their jobs, then Croats put
21 in their place their own police officers, but then when the Yugoslav Army
22 returned, then they shot them.
23 Q. And can you describe for us how you came to be released from the
24 Dalj police station?
25 A. I was in detention there when Hadzic [realtime transcript read in
1 error "Adzic"] came, the Krajina commander, and he released me.
2 Q. And you were -- were you accompanied by him when you exited --
3 when you left the building?
4 A. Well, and his company. He wasn't the only one there. There was
5 another man. When he came, I was lying down. So when he entered, he
6 asked, Which one of you is Sutalo? And I said that that was me. And
7 then he said, Well, get ready, you are coming with me, I'm taking you
8 home. And at that point, Palinkas also pleaded with him to let him go
9 too. He said, Why should I stay here with these young men, why don't you
10 let me come along with this -- with me.
11 So then he released him too. And then we came to the police
12 station. There was only one police officer there, a Serb, and he asked
13 -- he asked for my file then, and then he replied, Sutalo doesn't have a
14 file. And then the other guy just swore at him and said, So how can you
15 keep a man in prison when there is no file? And then he said,
16 Mr. President, I don't know who is keeping him in prison; it wasn't me.
17 Q. And when you then left the building with Hadzic accompanying you,
18 you gave evidence that there were these Chetniks outside the building; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, yes. When we left the police station, I saw some 30 to 40
21 Chetniks outside, and then somebody yelled, Be still, and then they
22 actually reported, there was an officer to whom they reported. And then
23 I don't know what happened next, but I saw Arkan among them, and then he
24 said, Sutalo, just come with me, I'm taking you home. And that's how he
25 took me home.
1 Q. Okay, and when you say "he," I take it you are referring to
2 Goran Hadzic. And my question was whether the people outside the
3 building acknowledged --
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And my question is whether the people outside the building
6 acknowledged this Goran Hadzic in any way?
7 A. Yes, oh, yes. As I said, they reported to him. They -- it was
8 like a review of troops, then he went up to the troops and according to
9 whatever their laws were, they handed him something over. I don't know
10 what it was, I wasn't close enough. But basically they just greeted him
11 with honours.
12 Q. And when you use the term "Chetniks," what do you mean by that
14 A. I mean Arkan's men. They were young boys who said -- who told
15 stories about how they had been released from juvenile facilities,
16 detention facilities.
17 Q. You described at paragraph 56 of your statement that you were
18 told by Palinkas, the other man who was released after you, that he
19 actually returned to the prison after being released in order to give his
20 cigarettes to the remaining prisoners. And you state:
21 "On reaching the prison and speaking to the guard, he was told
22 that there were no prisoners left."
23 Can you tell us if you remember exactly what Palinkas told you
24 about this conversation with the guard?
25 A. When he came with me to the police station, Hadzic said that he
1 was taking me home and that they should take Palinkas to his home. Then
2 when he set off to go home, on the way, he realised that he had some
3 cigarettes in his pocket, so he went back to give those cigarettes to the
4 other detainees, and when he arrived there, he said that the prison gates
5 were open and there was no one in the prison. And one of the policemen
6 asked him what he was looking for and he said, Well, I wanted to give
7 them cigarettes and he replied, well, they won't need them anymore,
8 they've had their final cigarettes.
9 Q. And when did you learn what happened to the men who had been
10 detained with you?
11 A. The very next morning.
12 Q. Who told you?
13 A. A Serb woman. Or, rather, she was a Croat, but she was married
14 to a Serb. She came to tell me that I was lucky, that I was lucky to
15 have survived, and she said that all the others had been shot about an
16 hour later.
17 Q. Sir, do you remember -- without telling me just yet, do you
18 remember the names of the other people who were detained with you?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: And I would ask that the court usher please call
22 up 65 ter 5255.
23 Q. And I will ask you to look at this list and tell me if you know
24 these people.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, can you read the names that you recognise and tell me where
2 these people are from, if you know it.
3 A. Ivan Andjal, Ivan Andjal was from Bilje in Baranja. Pavle Beck
4 was in Erdut. Haso Brajic from Osijek. I don't know Zeljko Filipcic.
5 As for this Ivan Florjan, he is from Bilje. Kusic is from Sotin. I
6 don't know Radovanovic, where he is from. A Stimac person, I don't
7 remember him. Zelember is from Batina, and he was the chairman of the
8 HDZ there. And then Zemljak Pavao and his son Vladimir are from Beli
9 Manastir in Baranja.
10 Q. And what happened to these people?
11 A. Well, they were found dead in cells or in "celija."
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the meaning.
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... near Vinkovci, which means
14 that they had been shot.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN:
16 Q. And are these the men that were detained with you then?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you said that some of them were from other places, so how was
19 it -- how is it that you are able to remember their names and that you
20 know where they are from?
21 A. While we were in the prison in Dalj, the teacher or professor
22 said, Who knows who is going to remain alive and who is going to get shot
23 dead, so let us each ask each other every single day what our names and
24 where we are from so that later on we can tell the families that so and
25 so was killed in such and such place.
1 Q. I would now like to talk specifically about Arkan's men. You
2 stated that you saw Arkan himself at the jail. Did you see him again in
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when was the first time that you saw him and his men in town,
6 or, sorry, in the village of Erdut?
7 A. I didn't see him in Erdut at all. I saw him in Dalj when he came
8 and beat us in the prison.
9 Q. And did you see his men in Erdut?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you see them ever engage in any violent behaviour?
12 A. Well, their behaviour was always violent. They never behaved
13 like human beings. A neighbour of mine who was there, they stood him
14 against a wall of a house and then they shot at him with, what do you
15 call it, they had darts, like darts, something like darts that they
16 actually aimed at him and then he was bleeding all over, and he came over
17 to my house and asked for some brandy so that he could actually wash out
18 the wounds.
19 Q. Did you personally see any of this, what happened to him?
20 A. To whom?
21 Q. To your neighbour?
22 A. Whom, what happened? Oh, I see. Well, no, I didn't, but he told
23 me when once they were gone, I didn't dare go out because they would have
24 shot me.
25 Q. Did you or your neighbour report this to the police, to
1 Bozidar Bolic?
2 A. Well, there was no point reporting this to anyone. I did not
3 report this to anyone.
4 Q. Why do you say that there was no point reporting it, just
5 briefly? Why do you say that?
6 A. Well, even the people who had incidents of that type and reported
7 them, it didn't help them at all. Quite the contrary, on the next day
8 they would come and beat him to death.
9 Q. Did you ever try to get a permit to leave Erdut at some point
10 between the time of your imprisonment but before you eventually managed
11 to leave in February?
12 A. Well, before the Yugoslav Army arrived, my wife had a cataract
13 and she had to go to Zagreb to have eye surgery, but when she went to
14 Zagreb, the hospital was actually being renovated. So she was told that
15 she would be called for surgery when the hospital was again operational,
16 and then when this evil happened, she had some pain in her eyes, so I
17 went up to them to ask for a permit in order to take my wife to the
18 hospital. They wouldn't issue the permit to me because, as they said, I
19 was not the list. Then I asked them what list? And they said, Well, you
20 are on the list. Then I said, Well, let me take a look at it. Then they
21 pulled it out of a drawer, they pulled out a list on which all Croats
22 were, all the Croat names were on the list. And they wouldn't let me go.
23 And it was only later on when we actually fled Erdut when we actually
24 left Erdut that she could have eye surgery in Zagreb.
25 Q. And I wanted to ask you about that time when you actually did
1 managed to leave Erdut in February of 1992, why is it, or what prompted
2 your decision to leave?
3 A. Well, one couldn't survive there anymore. Every other day I had
4 to go to an office for questioning, and they always asked the same thing,
5 and then they also came at night to my home, the troops, and then they
6 searched, they searched our wardrobes and closets to make sure that no
7 one was hidden there. We had no rights, we weren't given any food, any
8 clothes, and we realised we couldn't survive there, that we had to flee.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Sutalo for answering my questions.
10 I have no further questions at this time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Friedman.
12 Could I inquire with the other parties how much time they would
13 need for cross-examination so as to be able to fix the proper moment for
14 our break.
15 MR. JORDASH: About ten minutes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: About ten minutes.
17 MR. BAKRAC: Your Honours, not more than 30 minutes, let me put
18 it that way.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest, since we had a late start, that you
20 cross-examine the witness for ten minutes, Mr. Jordash, that we then have
21 a break and that we then hear the evidence of the witness when
22 cross-examined by you, Mr. Bakrac.
23 Yes, Ms. Friedman.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honour, I intended to tender 65 ter 5255
25 which was the victim list from Dalj, and I believe I did not request to
1 do so at the time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think you did. Any objections? I hear of
3 no objections.
4 Mr. Registrar, this witness list would receive number?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P00304, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P304 is admitted into evidence.
7 Mr. Sutalo, we'll continue for another ten minutes, then we'll
8 have a break, and then we'll hope to finish in the second session.
9 Mr. Jordash.
10 Mr. Sutalo, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.
11 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Can you hear me, Mr. Witness?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could I express my sympathy for your experience and indicate to
18 you that I do not seek to challenge what happened to you or suggest it's
19 not true, just so you know that -- where my questions are coming from.
20 Do you follow me?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I want to ask you very few questions, and I'll take probably
23 about ten minutes.
24 A. Go ahead.
25 Q. The first question I want to ask you is about this man Cizmic you
1 mentioned, who was a police officer, is that right, at the Dalj police
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And he was the only police officer you recognised from before
5 these events?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. He was a police officer at the Dalj police station, is that
8 right, before these events?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall whether his first name was Zeljko?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you know him personally before the event, or did you simply
13 know him by sight?
14 A. Yes. I did know him personally.
15 Q. What kind of police officer did you observe he was before the
16 event? Are you able to offer any observations on that?
17 A. Well, that depended on who you were.
18 Q. Could you elaborate on that, please.
19 A. Well, he wasn't a bad man but then when this whole unfortunate
20 thing happened, he turned out to be not so good. But later on when the
21 Croat -- he too came to the police force, became a member of the police
22 force later on, the Croatian policeman.
23 Q. Sorry, I don't understand the last sentence. He became a member
24 of the police force later on, the Croatian policeman, what do you mean by
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you explain what you mean by that.
3 A. Well, I don't know, but you see, when I came back, or rather when
4 we were in Dalj, he told me that he would kill me and then put me in a
5 hole two metres deep. In 1948 when I returned home, I had to go and
6 report to the police station and say that I was in Erdut. When I arrived
7 I saw him there, he was wearing a Croatian uniform, a uniform of Croatian
8 police and then later on he returned. Where he had come from, I don't
9 know. He had fled to Serbia, and then he came back.
10 Q. You mentioned the date 1948, did you mean to say 1948 in?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you knew Cizmic in 1948?
13 A. Not 1948, 1998. Before that I saw him he was a policeman in the
14 Dalj police station, and then when he was on duty, I would see him
16 Q. Okay. You said about Cizmic that when this whole unfortunate
17 thing happened, he turned out to be not so good. Let me ask you about
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. What did you observe him doing to make you come to that view?
21 A. When I came to Dalj, when the police brought me, he -- one time I
22 came outside to drink some water, and he saw me and said, What are you
23 doing here? And I said, Well, I'm here. And then he said, Luka. And I
24 said, Leave me alone, I just want to drink some water. But he wouldn't
25 let me do that, and he said that I was going to go into the ground,
1 two feet under. Two metres under.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. JORDASH: Could I just consult with my colleague, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Jordash.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Witness, let me try to take this chronologically. Again
8 nothing you've said do I disagree with or seek to challenge, but I just
9 want to try to make sure the Court understands what you are saying about
10 Zeljko Cizmic. Did you see him when you went to police station in Dalj
11 on the 25th of August?
12 A. I saw him on a number of occasions in Dalj. He would come to the
13 police station every day.
14 Q. Was he in a position of authority in the police station at Dalj?
15 A. No, I wasn't able to see that, no.
16 Q. When did the event take place that you've just described where he
17 refused to let you take a drink of water? Was that your first visit to
18 Dalj police station on the 25th, or after you had been to the Borovo
19 police station?
20 A. No, when I returned two or three days after that, when we came
21 back from Borovo, that's when it happened. I was wondering what was he
22 saying to me when we knew each other and when we used to say hello to
23 each other before. And then for him to become so brutal then.
24 Q. Why do you say brutal about Mr. Cizmic? What was it you observed
25 that made you --
1 A. Because he didn't let me have a drink of water and because he
2 threatened to kill me.
3 Q. And did he order you back inside?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you observe him being brutal to other detainees?
6 A. No, I wasn't really able to notice that, no.
7 Q. Do you know or did you hear from anyone else whether he had a
8 reputation for brutality?
9 A. All I know that Palinkas, there was something wrong with him too.
10 We were the only ones -- he was from Aljmas, and I was from Erdut, it's
11 the same area, the same municipality.
12 Q. I want to stay with Cizmic for a moment. You observed him being
13 brutal to you, and I'm interested in whether you know or have heard
14 whether he was brutal to anybody else during this period?
15 A. I heard that Palinkas also went somewhere and then he told him to
16 go back as well, so I heard that about him in relation to Palinkas as
18 Q. Palinkas tried to leave the station and you heard that Cizmic
19 told him to return inside likewise?
20 A. No, he didn't tell him to go back inside, but he, himself, they
21 had a kind of altercation. Palinkas's son was killed in the Croatian
22 police and that's probably why they had a kind of argument, and that's
23 why he shouted at him too.
24 Q. Palinkas told you this directly, did he?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you observe Cizmic working alongside Arkan?
2 A. No, I didn't see that.
3 Q. Did you see him working alongside Milorad Stricevic?
4 A. Yes, I saw them together. He would go to his office.
5 Q. Who would go to whose office?
6 A. Cizmic would go to Stricevic's offices, and Stricevic was the
7 komandir of the police there.
8 Q. Did you ever see or hear anything to indicate to you that
9 Zeljko Cizmic was anything other than an enthusiastic colleague of
10 Milorad Stricevic?
11 A. Well, they were on good terms, I saw that. I couldn't really
12 notice that they were on bad terms, no.
13 Q. What you observed was Cizmic working as a friendly, willing
14 colleague of Colonel Stricevic, is that fair?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Mr. Witness.
17 Can I again consult with my colleague.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. JORDASH: Thank you.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. JORDASH:
22 Q. I just want to clarify something for the transcript, Mr. Witness.
23 And I think it's my fault and my pronunciation, but I want to make sure
24 that we are talking, you and I, about the same man. We are talking about
25 -- all the questions I've just asked you and all the answers you've given
1 about Zeljko concerned Zeljko Cizmic, C-i-z-m-i-c; am I correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to move -- sorry, I missed that.
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I asked you 20 minutes ago, how much
6 time you would need, you said ten minutes, I did this also in view of the
7 well-being of your client. It now gave me the impression that you wanted
8 to go to another subject.
9 MR. JORDASH: I apologise for the bad -- for the poor
10 approximation. I hadn't expected the witness to be able to deal with
11 some of these issues, so everything took a bit longer. I've got about
12 five minutes left.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then that would bring us to one hour and 25 minutes,
14 if Mr. Stanisic would prefer to have the break now, we'll take the break
16 MR. JORDASH: Can I just check, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. JORDASH: I'm on the stop clock, five minutes, please, we can
20 JUDGE ORIE: Continue, five minutes. I look at the clock and
21 I'll -- please proceed.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Witness, I want to ask you about something you said in
24 response to a question by prosecuting counsel when you first began today.
25 And it concerns who was manning the check-points within -- within Erdut.
1 A. Erdut.
2 Q. Yes, thank you.
3 A. That was the Serbian police.
4 Q. It is the case, isn't it, Mr. Witness, that first when you spoke
5 about who was manning the check-points, you said it was the JNA soldiers,
6 when you first gave your statement to the Prosecution?
7 A. No. Yes, but I -- that was my remark. That was my objection,
8 that it wasn't the JNA, but the Serbian police there in civilian clothes.
9 Q. When you say the Serbian police, are you talking about local
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you recognise some of them as local --
13 A. I recognised each one of them.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 A. You are welcome.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you very much, Mr. Witness, no further
17 questions from me.
18 Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
20 Mr. Sutalo, we'll first take a break, and we'll resume at 4.30.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.59 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: For urgent personal reasons, Judge Gwaunza is unable
24 to continue sitting at this moment. Judge Picard and myself, we have
25 considered whether we are convinced that it's in the interest of justice
1 to continue and hear the case, and we are convinced that it is,
2 therefore, we'll continue.
3 Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to cross-exam the witness?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sutalo, you will now be cross-examined by
6 Mr. Bakrac.
7 Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
8 Please proceed.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
10 Q. Mr. Sutalo, good afternoon.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Just like my learned friend, Mr. Jordash, I'm first going to
13 express to you on behalf of my client and my team my regret and our
14 regret for the unpleasant experiences that you went through.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. We have your statements before us, as well as your testimony in
17 the Milosevic case. I do not wish to counter anything that you have said
18 or to go into any kind of discussion with you relating to certain
19 questions on which you were quite clear. I'm just going to have a few
20 questions in order to clarify in more detail some things. May I begin,
21 Mr. Sutalo?
22 A. Yes, you may, go ahead.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Mr. Sutalo, your first experience with this military officer
25 Kosutic, you said that he interrogated you at the Bogojevo factory; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you please tell me, Bogojevo is the first settlement as soon
4 as you cross the Danube from Croatia into Serbia?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. We can say it's only -- it's right at the --
7 A. Right at the border, at the bank of the Danube.
8 Q. Thank you. And when you were interrogated by this Mr. Kosutic,
9 if I understood you correctly, you were taken there by a certain
10 Zvonko Tucak from Erdut and a certain person -- another person, Mata, who
11 was from Croatia; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, he was from Dalj. Actually, he was working in Dalj, and he
13 was born in Vojvodina, and he lived there. It's just that once he got
14 work in Dalj, he stayed there, and this is where this misfortune overtook
16 Q. Yes, and these are the two people who called you out as Sutalo
17 and took you to this military officer Kosutic; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Sutalo, you talked about Marko Loncarevic and you said in
20 your statement in paragraph 21, and it's on page 4 both in the English
21 and the B/C/S versions, that he was from Dalj; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Dalj is in Croatia, isn't it, right next to Erdut; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Mr. Sutalo, in the Milosevic case, transcript 22572 [sic], you
1 said that Marko Loncarevic, about whom you are not sure as to what
2 position he had, what job he was doing, was in charge of everything. He
3 was asked about everything, is this correct, this Marko Loncarevic from
5 A. Yes, Marko Loncarevic from Dalj. During that meeting, Jovo -- I
6 used to know his last name, but I can't remember it right now. He said,
7 What are you going to do with the wheat? Because it was harvest time,
8 and the -- you couldn't -- the transport was interrupted at Bijelo Brdo,
9 the Serbs had cut it off, so you couldn't bring that in any more. So the
10 question was, Jovo, what are you going to do with the wheat? And then
11 somebody said Osijek has paid for the wheat, the wheat has to go to
12 Osijek. And then Loncarevic said, This is no longer Croatia; this is
13 Serbia; the wheat has to go to Vojvodina.
14 Q. All right. I understood, so this Loncarevic who was born in Dalj
15 and who was from Dalj from Croatia from your neighbourhood, that was him;
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, in order to avoid confusion at a later
20 stage, you referred, at least that was how it was translated, to
21 page 22572 - 22572 - where apparently you wanted to refer to 25572.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, 25572, Your Honours. I think
23 that's what I said, if I misspoke, perhaps, then I apologise.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Not blaming anyone, it's not worth while finding
25 out, but I'm just trying to avoid that at later stage people have to make
1 a huge effort to find the right page.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Sutalo, in your statement you also say that a few days after
5 the invasion, a large number of Serbs from Erdut, local Serbs, joined the
6 police; is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You even mentioned their names and you said that those persons
9 who joined the police, the local Serbs who joined the police started by
10 stealing property from abandoned homes; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Sutalo, you also mentioned a certain Milorad Gogic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you explain what his duties were. Who was he?
15 A. All I know is that he was a looter and that he had the uniform of
16 the Yugoslav People's Army. He wore a police uniform. And he also had a
17 uniform of Arkan's Chetniks. I don't know what he was, though.
18 Q. And this Milorad Gogic, was he from Dalj or Erdut?
19 A. He was born in Bosnia and he came to this area as a child. His
20 mother, Mileva, brought him, and he lived right next door to me. His
21 house was some 10 metres away from my house, right next to my house.
22 During these unfortunate events, he had four cisterns in his yard, three
23 cars, and one loader. I said, Where did you get a loader, for God's
24 sake? And he said from -- from Sarvas.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sutalo.
1 A. You are welcome.
2 Q. You told me about forced labour, or you talked about forced
3 labour. Can you please tell me if it's correct that forced labour was a
4 decision made by some local body?
5 A. I don't know. All I know is that this was the military training
6 camp, and this is where the young men went for their training. And this
7 is where we went to clear the old branches, to mow the grass, and clear
8 it away. It was very neglected. And I was given the summons by a
9 certain Darko Perepovic [phoen]. He brought me the summons, and the
10 summons was signed by Bolic.
11 Q. Mr. Sutalo, a lot of time has gone by, you said that
12 Dejan Djakovic came to you with the order or summons signed by Bolic; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sutalo, could I ask you to just make a short
16 break between question and answer because you speak the same language,
17 and then we often have overlapping speakers, and your words might be lost
18 if the interpreters cannot translate it for you -- for us. So,
19 therefore, could you try to make a break, and Mr. Bakrac will give a good
20 example by doing the same, to just pause for a second once you've given
21 your answer.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Sutalo, I hope that you heard what His Honour, the presiding
25 judge said, I'm going to try, and I will ask you also, to try to make a
1 break. So the order on the labour duty was signed by Bolic,
2 Bozidar Bolic was in charge of the local police, the commander; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And now tell me something about another person, about
6 Milorad Stricevic, you testified about him. Who was that? Can you
7 please tell us.
8 A. I don't know, he was from Dalj, and I am from Erdut. All I know
9 is that when I arrived the first evening he was the person in charge
10 there, and he had a policeman with him who had a whip. And some people
11 said later that he was actually a driver; he wasn't a lieutenant. I
12 don't know what he was.
13 Q. For the transcript, when you say from Dalj, does that mean that
14 he was a local Serb from the area; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Sutalo, you testified about your son, or rather, about how he
17 came to the police station and brought some things and cigarettes for
18 you, and so on. This was not quite clear from your testimony in the
19 Milosevic case and from your statement, so can we clarify that. Your
20 son, Vidoje, was he a member of the Yugoslav Army?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a page reference.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the English
23 page 7, I believe that's paragraph 41, and it begins with, "Vidoje my
24 elder son is married it to Marinka, she had a relative in the JNA," and
25 so on. As for the transcript page in the Milosevic case.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I was asking for primarily, yes.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Bear with me a moment, Your
3 Honours, I jotted it down. That's 25578. Page 25578.
4 Q. Mr. Sutalo, it is unclear and I would appreciate it if you could
5 clarify it now, and if you cannot, that's also all right, but tell us,
6 your son Vidoje, was he a member?
7 A. My son Vidoje is married to Marinka Milojkovic, a Serb, and he,
8 too, was with the Serbian army that went to defend Krajina.
9 Q. If I understand you correctly, your son Vidoje was in the Serb
10 Krajina army; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. You are welcome.
14 Q. Mr. Sutalo, I have just a few other questions and I believe that
15 I will be done in five to ten minutes.
16 A. Oh, just go ahead, I have plenty of time.
17 Q. Well, I know that, Mr. Sutalo, but I think because we are doing
18 this well, we are moving along fast. So I will have just another
19 question about this.
20 You mentioned in your statement a certain Milenko Simic. And
21 where you said that the local people began to disappear and their wives
22 and relatives, that Milenko Simic was actually involved in that; is that
24 A. Milenko Simic was a Serb policeman. He drove a Serb police car,
25 and he went, I don't know who he received orders from, but he went to
1 collect the people as ordered. And whenever he drove someone, that
2 someone never returned.
3 Q. Mr. Sutalo, let's just be precise, when you say a member of the
4 Serb police, you mean the local Serb police? He was a local man?
5 A. Oh, yes, yes.
6 Q. There was an incident where a hand-grenade was actually lobbed
7 into your garden and you said that you reported this to a Trolic or a
8 Trovic, could you tell us who this person was?
9 A. Yes, that was the chief commander of the JNA, the army that went
10 to Vukovar and returned from the battle-field, and he was -- actually his
11 staff was in the house of my son, and I reported this incident with the
12 hand-grenade. This was 15 minutes before Christmas when this happened
13 and --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear who it was who
15 threw the bomb, the hand-grenade.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sutalo, the interpreters could not hear who it
17 was that threw the hand-grenade. Could you repeat that, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hand-grenade or who it was who
19 title threw it, I don't know. But I know that it was one of his
20 policemen, but they wouldn't say who.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Sutalo, isn't it correct that after you returned to Erdut,
24 you heard that this hand-grenade was actually thrown by a local
25 policeman, Zoran Oljaca?
1 A. Yes, I heard about that, Gogic told me about it, but he said that
2 it wasn't him but the other one, but now I don't really know which one.
3 When you don't see something, you can't really confirm.
4 Q. Mr. Sutalo, the permit to leave Erdut, you requested to be issued
5 this permit -- you requested Mr. Bolic, correct, the commander of the
6 police in Dalj?
7 A. In Erdut.
8 Q. In Erdut. Now, you said that in order to obtain the permit, you
9 had to actually sign over your house and your property to the village
10 council. Now, what I would like -- please listen to my question
11 carefully. Once you returned after the JNA retreated, was your property
12 still in the registry of deeds? Was it still registered there under your
14 A. Well, my house was registered in the registry in Osijek, and at
15 this time it was impossible to go from Krajina to Osijek in order to
16 enter the information, so my house remained -- the deed on my house
17 remained in my name, and this was true not only for my house, but for
18 everyone else who actually signed over their property, because those
19 signatures weren't worth anything.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sutalo.
21 Now, tell me one more thing. Was there a certain number of
22 people of Croat nationality who remained in Erdut after you left and
23 remained there all through until you returned?
24 A. Well, yes, that's true. Many people stayed back, but not I
25 returned, because about 20 days later all Croats left Erdut. Everyone
1 was expelled, so that in fact Erdut remained ethnic.
2 Q. Did they all request to be issued permits to leave?
3 A. Well, I don't know what it was they sought. They must have
4 because the Serb police did not allow anyone who hadn't signed over their
5 property to them. No one was allowed to leave unless they did that.
6 Q. And if I understood you correctly, you all crossed over to Serbia
7 and then from there you moved on?
8 A. No, the last group of Croats who were expelled, were expelled via
9 -- or they had to cross Bijelo Brdo on then on to Osijek. But the
10 earlier group, when we fled, we fled via Vojvodina.
11 Q. Mr. Sutalo, at this time when a large number of Croats left that
12 area, was there a large influx of refugees from Serbian Krajina following
13 in the after math of Oluja and Pakrac? Was it -- were they expected --
14 were they waiting for a large number of refugees, of Serb refugees to
15 come over from Croatia?
16 A. I don't know, but I know that a large number of Serbs did come,
17 and they were -- later on they were given the Croat houses.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sutalo.
19 Now, could we just go back to the very beginning of your
20 statement, I just wanted to make sure about something there. In
21 paragraph 3 of your statement which then became Exhibit P301, you said
22 prior to the elections in 1990, relations between the different ethnic
23 groups in Erdut were almost perfect. We all had good relations with each
24 other, attending each other's weddings, funerals, and feasts. This was
25 due in part to the many mixed marriages. And then you go on explain that
1 when the HDZ party was established, you became a member of it. Now, my
2 question, Mr. Sutalo, is this -- and as a member I'm sure you must have
3 known, and I suppose that you will agree with me, but the basic policy,
4 the underlying policy of the HDZ was to secede from Yugoslavia, for
5 Croatia to secede from Yugoslavia?
6 A. Well, everything went on well until Jovo Raskovic came along.
7 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Sutalo --
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] But Your Honours, we have this in
9 the testimony in the Milosevic case. I don't want to cover the same
10 ground; I just want to put a very specific question to this witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until Raskovic's speech in Dalj,
13 everything was all right, but from that moment on, the Serbs began to
14 avoid speaking with us, and then all of this happened. We were never
15 told by anyone in the HDZ that we should part ways or that you have to
16 listen to our orders --
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Sutalo, I fully understand what you are saying, but please
19 let's try and focus in order to finish as soon as we can. So please
20 listen to my question carefully, and it's very simple. I am not asking
21 about who showed what. But just tell me, is it true that the policy of
22 the HDZ was for Croatia to secede from Yugoslavia and to establish
23 Croatia as an independent state? That is my first question.
24 A. No one ever said that in any meeting or any gathering. Never.
25 Q. Do you know that when the HDZ came to power, the Serb people,
1 which until then, had been an constituent ethnic group in Croatia, now
2 lost this feature and became a national minority, do you know that?
3 A. Of the Serbs in Erdut, and there were 23 per cent of them, no one
4 ever touched them. No one ever gave them a bad look. No one ever hit
5 them, and they killed 35 Croats in Erdut, and now you draw your
7 Q. Mr. Sutalo, I understand what you are saying fully. And I'm not
8 saying that in Erdut or in Dalj you resorted to violence or that you
9 treated the Serbs, your neighbours, improperly. My question only is
10 this. When the HDZ came into power, the Serb people, who until then
11 figured as a constituent ethnic group, were now expelled from that, or no
12 longer had that position.
13 A. Well, I don't read the constitution, and I've never read anything
14 like that.
15 Q. Very well.
16 Now, Mr. Sutalo, on the first page of your statement,
17 paragraph 4, you say, The HDZ party was formed, I became a member. And
18 then your meetings were held in Stjepan Lucan's house in Orasje on the
19 outskirts of Erdut. My question is why does a legally established party
20 meet in a private home on the outskirts of Erdut, rather than meet in the
21 culture centre in Erdut which probably existed, so why was this happening
22 in a private home on the outskirts of Erdut?
23 A. Well, there was no culture centre, nor were the meetings held
24 there because it didn't exist. Now later on when Arkan came, he actually
25 built a large culture centre and also the same happened in the village a
1 bit further on, so now we have two of them in Dalj.
2 Q. Well, wasn't there -- weren't there any premises where a meeting
3 of a party could be held publicly at the time?
4 A. Well, the meetings were actually convened by the chairman of the
5 HDZ board, and I don't know why he chose to convene them there.
6 Q. And do you know when the new constitution was adopted in Croatia
7 when the HDZ came to power, that members of the police of Serb ethnicity
8 were forced to leave the police?
9 A. Where?
10 Q. In Erdut and Dalj.
11 A. Well, to this day there are five or six police officers of Serb
12 ethnicity in Erdut.
13 Q. Mr. Sutalo, I believe we did not understand each other. I'm not
14 talking about the present time. I'm talking about the period that is
15 relevant for this case. I'm talking about 1991.
16 A. Well, I don't know that.
17 Q. That's all right. Now, I have a few more questions. You
18 mentioned on several occasions, as you testified, the word 'Chetniks.'
19 You used that word. Now, tell me, sir, you are an elderly man, can you
20 tell me whether the term "Chetnik" is a equally offensive as the term
22 A. Well, I think so, they are both the same.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 And my final question, Mr. Sutalo, today, for the first time, you
25 mentioned when speaking about Arkan's men. In other words, you gave a
1 statement in 1999, you were questioned in the Milosevic case, and yet it
2 is only today for the first time -- whereas even during the proofing
3 sessions with my learned colleague, you never mentioned this. But you
4 said today in your testimony that Arkan's men were actually -- had
5 actually been released from juvenile detention facilities. Now, tell me
6 this, all these years later, how is it that you've just mentioned this
7 today and that you learned of this now?
8 A. Well, I was a beekeeper and people would come to my place to buy
9 honey from me. Most of these people were young people and then one of
10 them said to me that most of these young men were actually -- or had
11 actually been released from juvenile facilities so that they could
12 actually March in Croatia. So that's where I learned that, and that's
13 why I used that today.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last exchange.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Well, Mr. Sutalo, the last words you said were not recorded in
17 the transcript. You said that it wasn't correct, or that you didn't know
19 A. Well, yes, I don't know about that, but I do know what I was told
20 by this one person because I asked, Well, how come all of you are so
21 young? And he said, Well, they are all released from a juvenile
23 Q. Mr. Sutalo, since you mentioned that they actually bought honey
24 from you, would that mean that they actually paid for the honey, Arkan's
1 A. Yes, yes, they paid it quite honestly, they did.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sutalo, I have no further questions for you, and I
3 wish you a long and good life. I see that you look very well.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That is
5 all that I have for this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
7 Has the cross-examination triggered any need for further
8 questions to Mr. Sutalo?
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, only one brief matter of clarification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sutalo, Ms. Friedman has some questions for you.
11 Re-examination by Ms. Friedman:
12 Q. Mr. Sutalo, you were asked today in the cross-examination just
13 now about two people who were with you in Serbia called Zvonko Tucak and
14 Mata, any I think there may have been some confusion. You were asked
15 whether these people called you out and took you to the military officer
16 Kosutic. Did these men take you to the officer; is that right?
17 A. No. No. They didn't take me, but because there was this
18 unfortunate thing with the army entering, then Zeljko Zubovic came, he
19 worked at the Erdut farm, he came and said that there were many Croats in
20 Dalj that had been killed. So then I said that my wife and I should flee
21 across until things quietened down a little bit, so when we went across,
22 I was caught by the army, Kosutic's soldiers, and they took me to him.
23 This is where I met Tucak and Mata from Dalj.
24 Q. And were Tucak and Mata also being held there and detained there
25 in Serbia?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench has no further questions. And may I
6 take it that the re-examination has not triggered any further need for
7 questions to the witness.
8 Mr. Sutalo, this concludes your testimony. I would like to thank
9 you very much for coming to the place of the video conference and for
10 having answered the questions that were put to you. You are excused, and
11 I wish you --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm grateful to you as well, thank
14 JUDGE ORIE: I wish you a safe return home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think we can conclude the videolink. Thank you
17 for your assistance, Ms. Veretelnikova, at a distance.
18 [Witness's evidence via videolink concluded]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a few matters, not very much. One is
20 I'd like to have special attention for page 18, line 10, where I got the
21 impression the witness was talking about Mr. Hadzic, Goran Hadzic,
22 whereas it appears as Adzic and since Mr. Adzic also was a prominent
23 person in the former Yugoslavia, we should take care that this is not in
24 any way misrecorded or misunderstood.
25 Then finally, Mr. Stanisic, you have asked whether you could
1 address the Chamber for five minutes. Now, the Chamber is willing,
2 although it's not very common, to give you an opportunity to address the
3 Chamber. And from what I see, there's no need to give a solemn
4 declaration because matters you will talk about are not related to
5 matters we find in the indictment. However, although there would be time
6 at this moment, one of the judges is not there. For that reason, it
7 might be wiser to wait until Monday, so that all three judges have heard
8 what you want to tell us.
9 I see you are nodding yes, which I take it for agreeing to
10 postponing it until next week.
11 Is there any other procedural matter which requires our attention
12 at this moment?
13 MR. GROOME: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I see no positive responses, and I hear no positive
15 responses from the Defence, therefore, the Chamber takes it that the same
16 is true for the Defence.
17 Then under these circumstances, we'll adjourn, and we'll resume
18 on Monday, the 8th of March, at quarter past 2.00 in Courtroom II.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.16 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of
21 March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.