1 Friday, 23 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is the case number
9 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there were no preliminaries. The
12 Chamber has received a -- a confidential memo, a proofing note for the
13 next witness, who is not seeking protective measures. Then we will wait
14 for Mr. Milovanovic to be escorted into the courtroom.
15 Yes, Mr. Groome.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting, just so that the
17 record is complete from yesterday, General Milovanovic informed me
18 yesterday evening that he has received members of the Perisic Defence
19 team and the Karadzic Defence team pursuant to their request and has
20 answered their questions. And the other point I wanted to raise with the
21 Chamber is that General Milovanovic was unable to get through all of the
22 binders. He is prepared to do that over the weekend, and I was going to
23 propose that he be provided that, but perhaps maybe sometime before the
24 end of the day, I could address the Chamber with the remainder of my
25 proposal. Thank you.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Milovanovic. Before you give
3 evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that
4 you make a solemn declaration, of which the text will now be handed down
5 to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Milovanovic. Please be seated.
9 Mr. Milovanovic, if I address you as "Mr. Milovanovic," rather
10 than as "General Milovanovic," this is not in any way expressing
11 disrespect for your rank. I'm used to address witnesses always by "Mr.,"
12 unless they appear as expert witnesses, where the title is of direct
13 relevance for the testimony. You're here as a witness of fact, and
14 that's the reason why I address you, as I address all other witnesses, as
15 Mr. Milovanovic.
16 Mr. Groome or Mr. Weber, are you ready to examine the witness?
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milovanovic, you'll now first be examined by
19 Mr. Groome. Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution. He is at your
21 Please proceed.
22 WITNESS: MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examination by Mr. Groome:
25 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, you are appearing here today pursuant to a
1 subpoena issued by this Chamber on the 4th of February, 2010; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, General, you have had a lengthy professional military
5 career. It is important that the Chamber is aware of it, but not
6 necessary that we discuss it in any great detail here. After you arrived
7 in The Hague
8 assignments compiled from your prior testimony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you given an opportunity to make corrections to it and then
11 presented with a summary that you considered accurate?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, could I ask that document number 5286
14 be placed on the screen.
15 Q. And, General, when it appears on the screen, I'd ask you to
16 review it and tell us is this the document that summarises your
17 professional qualifications. It's a two-page document, General. I will
18 show you the second page in a moment. There's a signature at the top of
19 that page. Do you recognise that signature?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Whose signature is that?
22 A. Mine.
23 MR. GROOME: And could we go to the second page, please.
24 Q. Do you see your signature on this page?
25 A. I do.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
2 this summary of General Milovanovic's professional assignments into
3 evidence as a public exhibit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
5 Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number to the
7 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P3 --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have something to add, something
9 that I have forgotten yesterday.
10 THE REGISTRAR: P375, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second. If you already assign a number and then
12 we'll hear Mr. Milovanovic's observations. The number would be,
13 Madam Registrar ...?
14 THE REGISTRAR: P375, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milovanovic, if you would like to add anything,
16 please do so.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday I forgot that in the
18 meantime, in 1971, I completed as a part-time student the JNA school of
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that is now on the record that you'd like
21 to add this to what is in this document. P375 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. General, are you willing to answer any additional questions
24 regarding your professional career that the Chamber or the Defence may
25 put to you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I want to show you several video-clips from a documentary
3 directed by Filip Svarm and shown widely on television in Serbia. The
4 name of the documentary is "The Unit." The documentary had three parts.
5 I will structure my questions to you here today around your interview
6 which is contained in the first and second parts of the documentary. I
7 would like to begin by asking you a few questions generally about this
8 interview that you gave for the documentary.
9 First, can you tell us approximately when it was you gave this
11 A. I'm not sure of exact time, but I think it was sometime in 2007.
12 Q. And in preparation for this interview, did you review any
14 A. I saw that clip, that film.
15 Q. What I'm asking you now is before you gave the interview that has
16 been video-recorded, did you review any materials to prepare for the
17 questions you were asked on the video?
18 A. I don't think I did. First of all, the film that I saw yesterday
19 was -- is a compilation of several statements of mine, and then that was
20 turned into a documentary. Now, as for my preparation, nothing special
21 really. There is no archives of the Main Staff of the army, so it's
22 really just recollections. That's all.
23 Q. Now, one of the first topics you discuss in the documentary is
24 Arkan. I would like to show you a clip from part 1 of the documentary,
25 and I will ask you to comment on certain aspects of it afterwards.
1 MR. GROOME: Could I ask Mr. Laugel to please play clip
2 65 ter 2608.1 -- I'm sorry, clip 1 of 65 ter number 2608.1. It is a clip
3 that appears in the original documentary at 58 minutes, 15 seconds to
4 58 minutes, 52 seconds. And for the benefit of the booth, it is marked
5 as clip 1 on the handout given earlier today.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 "Manojlo Milovanovic: By the time I had arrived at the front
8 line on the 11th of May, Arkan had already finished the job in Bijeljina
9 and Zvornik.
10 "Zuti: There were always problems between us and the
11 Republika Srpska army.
12 "Manojlo Milovanovic: Each time the Serbian Volunteers' Guard
13 returned from Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina
14 from transporters and tanks, there was always a large number of container
15 lorries in the column and that was their characteristic."
16 MR. GROOME:
17 Q. General Milovanovic, it seems that the first part of your comment
18 was missed by the interpretation. Perhaps it was the less-than-perfect
19 quality of the audio. Do you recall referring to Arkan as being a
20 separate problem at the beginning of that clip? Did you say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, my first question to you is whether your comments that we've
23 just listened to are accurate and truthful.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when you say in the clip that "Arkan is a separate problem,"
1 can you describe to the Chamber what it is you meant by this. Describe
2 the problem that you believed Arkan represented.
3 A. It wasn't just Arkan, but all paramilitaries that we found in
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina. All of them represented a problem. First of
5 all, because they entered the war without authorisation. Second, because
6 the goal of their participation in the war was not some sort of a freedom
7 of Serbian nation or struggle for Serbian nation. The purpose of their
8 participation in the war was to find an occupation and to pump as much
9 wealth out of it as possible.
10 Sometime in 1991 and 1992 paramilitaries were typical for the
11 former SFRY. There were no authorities in -- proper authorities in power
12 in the SFRY at the time. There were many political parties established
13 and all of them were fighting for power, political power. And the
14 quickest and surest way to come to power was to awaken some new
15 patriotism, as a result of which illegal armed groups were established.
16 And they acted against other ethnic group, regardless of which ethnic
17 group that was and whether that ethnic group armed the Serbs in any way.
18 Q. General, can I ask you to be precise in who were -- was the
19 victim or victims of the problem that Arkan created, both in terms of
20 ethnicity and both in terms of -- also in terms of geographical location.
21 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, the victims were first of all Muslims
22 and then Croats in addition to them. In the territory of the former
23 Serbian Krajina, the victims were Croats. However, when the wealth of
24 Muslims and Croats in certain area disappeared, then it was the Serbs who
25 became victims. When the Army of Republika Srpska was established --
1 Q. General --
2 A. -- and once that army entered an area --
3 Q. Before -- could I just ask you a few more questions about the
4 nature of the problem and then I'm going to ask you about the response of
5 the Army of Republika Srpska. You refer to the victims or have
6 identified them as Muslims in Bosnia
7 terms of municipalities within Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the point in time
8 that I'd ask you to focus on is at the beginning of the conflict in
10 A. Even before the conflict officially broke out, that is to say,
11 before the 6th of April in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Arkan personally
12 together with his group of Tigers, that's what his soldiers were known
13 as, he started cleansing Bijeljina. We saw in the first clip that there
14 was persecution of Muslims. We saw that there was a dead man in
15 Bijeljina. And people saw that clip many times. In addition to looting,
16 they also started killing. So I hope I answered your question. You
17 asked for specific examples.
18 Initially --
19 Q. Yes --
20 A. -- Arkan was active only in Bijeljina and nowhere else in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina until 1995.
22 Q. Now, did you ever hear a public statement made by Arkan speaking
23 about the JNA's garrison commander Colonel Masala with respect to events
24 in Bijeljina?
25 A. Yes. I did hear that public statement of his in 1996, when he
1 declared that Colonel Masala was a traitor of the Serbian people because
2 he prevented him from doing what he wanted to Bijeljina. And Masala was
3 the commander of the JNA garrison there.
4 Q. And did Arkan go on to say what it was he wanted to do in
5 Bijeljina that Colonel Masala prevented him from doing?
6 A. He didn't say what he was going to do. He simply said -- or
7 rather, I need to describe the context and we may be wasting time. In
8 1996 there were elections taking place in Bosnia and Herzegovina
9 woman who represented his party, the Party of Serbian Unity, was a
10 candidate among others for the president of Republika Srpska. And in her
11 pre-election speech when she addressed the nation, she glorified Arkan's
12 accomplishments from the struggle of Serbian people in Semberija,
13 Western Bosnia
14 I made a call to that TV broadcast and denied any military
15 achievements of Arkan, especially not in Majevica. Then Arkan's reaction
16 followed. He didn't attack me, rather he defended himself. He said that
17 he had not completed his job in Bijeljina only because he had been
18 prevented by a Serbian traitor, Colonel Masala.
19 Q. Now, you go on in the clip to describe how each time the Serbian
20 Volunteers' Guard returned from the Republika Srpska and the Republic of
21 Serbian Krajina they had shipping containers as part of their convoy and
22 this was related to looting activity. Have I understood the import of
23 your statement correctly?
24 A. Yes, you understood it well.
25 Q. Now --
1 A. As for the trucks, I personally discovered them.
2 Q. I was simply -- that was going to be my next question. Is this
3 something that you personally observed? Can you please describe when,
4 where, and what it was that you observed.
5 A. On the 23rd of July, 1995, I was in Han Pijesak to see off
6 General Zivanovic, and I was on my way back to Drvar where my command
7 post was. In Obudovac I came across three BOVs, armoured personnel
8 carriers. It was evening and they had rotation lights on. However,
9 between them there were a couple of trucks, say there would be personnel
10 carrier and then a truck or two trucks and then a personnel carrier and
11 so on. So a couple of trucks. And there was a mixed check-point of the
12 army and the police of the Army of Republika Srpska.
13 I stopped at the check-point and I asked the policeman whose
14 personnel carriers those were. And the young man there said, "Arkan's."
15 And I said, "What about the trucks?" And he said, "Also his." I asked
16 him what were they transporting in the trucks. And he said, "I didn't
17 check all of the trucks, just the last one, and there were a lot of
18 appliances there." I realised that this was a case of looting because
19 Arkan had without any invitation previously come to Kljuc and he joined
20 in the combat of the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska in the
21 Storm operation.
22 Q. General --
23 A. Upon arriving in Banja Luka, I asked to meet --
24 Q. -- could I ask you, did you learn where these convoys were going,
25 what was their destination?
1 A. They were on their way to Serbia
2 Q. Now, during this period that you were aware Arkan was
3 transporting looted goods from the conflict area, were there operational
4 border checks at the border between Bosnia
5 A. Yes. There were border crossings, yes.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, it is my intention to work with each
7 of the two clips from the first part of this documentary and then tender
8 them as a single exhibit unless the Chamber prefers that I do otherwise.
9 For the sake of a clear record, I refer to the clip I've just used as
10 65 ter clip 2608.1, clip 1.
11 Q. Now, in the documentary you say that:
12 "Arkan had already finished the john in Bijeljina and Zvornik."
13 My first question on this basis is -- I'm sorry, on what basis
14 did -- I'm sorry, I think we've covered those next two questions. What
15 I'd now ask you: What was the response of the VRS to the problem of
16 paramilitaries as you have described?
17 A. The Main Staff, or rather, the 12 officers who were to become
18 members of the future Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska gathered
19 in Han Pijesak on the 11th of May, 1992, in the afternoon hours. There
20 were four generals and eight colonels and lieutenant-colonels. All of
21 them were people who by way of various orders and presidential decrees of
22 the JNA were transferred to the military district in Sarajevo. However,
23 by the time when we arrived there on the 11th of May, there had already
24 been issued an order of the Rump Presidency of the former SFRY that the
25 JNA was to withdraw from some areas, but to remain in Bosnia and
2 However, by the time we arrived there it had already fallen apart, that
3 plan. And when we met there, we spent the whole night discussing what to
5 It was still not known who was to be the commander, but there was
6 some hints. Since we didn't have any goals for the war and we knew that
7 we were on the brink of the war, we formulated 21 tasks or principles as
8 to what the future army was supposed to do. I would like to reiterate
9 that the Army of Republika Srpska was the seventh and the last armed
10 force that was established in the territory of the former SFRY. It was
11 the last one because before that we had been expecting that the JNA would
12 protect the Serbian nation. However, in 1993 the eighth armed force was
13 established --
14 Q. General, I apologise for interrupting you and I will allow you to
15 make more comments on some of this general background later on, but just
16 in the interests of time was there a -- was one of the tasks that members
17 of the Main Staff or these senior officers that you've spoken about, was
18 one of those tasks to attempt to either subordinate these paramilitaries
19 into regular troops or to expel them from the territory under the
20 authority of the Army of Republika Srpska?
21 A. One of those 21 tasks was to gather, or rather, to call all the
22 commanders of these paramilitary formations and they were at the level of
23 a group and even at the level of a brigade, and to ask them to join the
24 regular Army of Republika Srpska or to place themselves under the command
25 of the Main Staff. Those who refused to do that were to be expelled, and
1 if they were to put up armed resistance, they were to be defeated. Based
2 on that decision, General Mladic, on the 28th of July, issued an order
3 concerning this.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I take you back to one of your previous
7 questions. You asked, in relation to the looted goods, whether there
8 were operational border checks at the border between Bosnia and Serbia
9 And then the answer was: "Yes, there were border crossings." Now, that
10 seems not to be unambiguous. Therefore, crossing a border could be a
11 place where people are crossing and where there are checks, although
12 that's not what the answer says. So I'm not certain that the answer is
13 an answer to your question. Could you please clarify.
14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
15 Q. General, you've heard Judge Orie's request for a clarification.
16 Can you describe what was -- what precisely was at the border between
18 A. Border crossings were organised in a typical manner. There were
19 police there present to check persons and there were also customs officer
20 to check what was the goods that were transported. Normally, first the
21 police would check your personal documents and then customs people would
22 check the goods.
23 As for the Republika Srpska, we had joint police, civilian and
24 military police there. The military police was there because there was
25 an order of the army commander, General Mladic, that all men fit for
1 military service had to remain in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were not allowed to
2 leave the territory, because they could be mobilised. This is why
3 military policemen were present at all border crossings who turned
4 back --
5 Q. General --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. They're asking -- the interpreters are asking if you could speak
10 more closely to the microphone.
11 Now, General, on the -- were the police that were at the border,
12 were there Serb police? In other words, were there members of the
13 Ministry of Interior police of Serbia
14 A. You mean on the Serbian side?
15 Q. Yes, sir.
16 A. Whenever I crossed, I saw people in blue uniforms, which means
17 that they were police members, members of MUP.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 Now, returning to dealing with paramilitaries, are you familiar
20 with a person by the name of Captain Dragan?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did you have a personal encounter with him with respect to
23 this effort to deal with the problem of paramilitaries?
24 A. I had contacts with Captain Dragan by way of means of
25 communication and also by correspondence. When we decided to expel him
1 as well, I was tasked with doing that and I did it in a military way. I
2 issued -- I gave him an assignment and I told him if he were to complete
3 it, then he could remain in the Army of Republika Srpska, and if he were
4 not to complete it, he had to leave. He didn't complete his assignment
5 and he had to get his things and leave.
6 Q. Now, General, can we just get some basic information about this.
7 Can we get an approximate date, your best recollection of the date, and
8 the precise location of where this interaction between you and
9 Captain Dragan took place?
10 A. I saw Captain Dragan only once in my life, and that was at a --
11 at the parade of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 28th of June. It
12 wasn't really a personal contact. He just was part of that parade that
13 passed by the Main Staff of VRS, and then later on, when ARSK was
14 established, the Army of Krajina, I gave him an assignment to track down
15 and to destroy, to eliminate, one of the paramilitary leaders who was
16 active in the villages in that area. If necessary, I can give you his
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness also tell us the year.
20 I'm sorry to interrupt. You talked about the 28th of June, of
21 what year?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 28th of June, 1995.
23 As for my contact by correspondence and by radio with
24 Captain Dragan, that was in June of 1992, at the very beginning of the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you finish your answer to -- in respect of the
2 name you said you could give to us.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave him an assignment to
4 eliminate Naser Oric, the commander of Muslim forces who were active in
5 the central Drina Valley
6 February of 1992 to March of 1993, he destroyed about 156 Serbian
7 villages and killed about 3.200 civilians.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Now, you were -- refer --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I check, 28th of June, and then the contact by
13 correspondence and radio, that was at the end of -- I thought I heard
14 something different but if it's correct then I -- was it the end of June
15 or was another year mentioned there?
16 MR. GROOME: Perhaps I could clarify --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Perhaps, Mr. Milovanovic, I asked you about the 28th of what
19 year, and then you said 1995. Then you said, "As for my contact by
20 correspondence and radio," you said, "that was at the end of" -- could
21 you please repeat what you then said.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My contact by radio and by
23 correspondence or by dispatches with Captain Dragan took place in the
24 second half of June 1992.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I remember that I heard the 1992.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Now, I want to just focus precisely on this period of time in
4 June of 1992 for the moment. Do you know where Captain Dragan was active
5 at that particular point in time?
6 A. Up until then Captain Dragan was active in the area of the
7 Knin Krajina. Once the Vance-Owen Plan was implemented and UNPA zones
8 were created in Croatia
9 provided by the UN to the Serbian people living there.
10 Q. But at the end of June, where was -- where was Captain Dragan, to
11 your knowledge?
12 A. From the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Captain Dragan moved on to
13 the Zvornik area, to a place called Divic. That's some 8 to 10
14 kilometres to the south of Zvornik.
15 Q. Now, when he was in Zvornik, is this also in the end of June of
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And is this the location which the decision was taken that he
19 must be expelled from?
20 A. No. The decision was made at the Main Staff. He headquartered
21 himself in Divic and established a training camp for members of a
22 sabotage unit or something like that.
23 Q. Do you know the approximate size of Captain Dragan's unit when it
24 was in Divic in Zvornik?
25 A. I have already told you that I gave him an assignment. The
1 assignment was given to him by way of a dispatch. He told me that he
2 would carry out an assignment, but he asked for some resources which I
3 couldn't provide, not even an American army had that kind of equipment,
4 special radios, special explosives, special rifles that I had heard of
5 for the first time at that time. We scheduled a meeting in Milici, he
6 and I. I came to Milici and he wasn't there. The people who were there
7 told me that he had to travel to Zvornik and that he would be waiting for
8 me there. I went to Zvornik, he wasn't there either. I realised that
9 the man was making a fool out of me.
10 In Zvornik I was told that he had gone to Divic. I went to
11 Divic, he wasn't there either. In Divic I found 20-odd people with red
12 berets. Their uniforms resembled the ones that he had in Knin. So I
13 said to these guys -- I asked them where they were from. Most of them
14 were from Serbia
15 there were even our people from Republika Srpska. I told them, "You go
16 back to your units or to your homes and tell Captain Dragan that he needs
17 to disappear from here as well."
18 I went back to the Main Staff on the same day, and on television
19 I saw that Captain Dragan was to have a programme where he talked about a
20 fund that was to take care of the wounded people in that area. That's
21 all I knew about Captain Dragan --
22 Q. Now, General --
23 A. -- and the one time that I saw him was in that parade.
24 Q. Now, did you form an opinion with respect to the professionalism
25 of the 20 men with red berets that you found in Divic? Were they, in
1 your view, professional soldiers?
2 A. No, they were not professional soldiers. Later on, the people
3 who observed this training of his told me that, for example, he trained
4 those people to jump out of cars in high chase and to do some activities
5 that were anything but training them to use a rifle.
6 Q. Now, the second area you discuss in the documentary is your first
7 meeting with the accused in this case, Jovica Stanisic. I'm going to ask
8 you to look at the monitor in front of you as this is played.
9 MR. GROOME: I would ask Mr. Laugel to now play 65 ter 2608.1,
10 clip number 2. This second clip is 45 seconds long and it commences, on
11 the original tape, 1 hour, 4 minutes in the completed version of the
12 documentary. It is also clip 2 in the handout to the interpreters.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "Manojlo Milovanovic: Badza was in uniform and Stanisic in plain
15 clothes. I asked General Panic who these people were. He told me that
16 it was Stanisic - he only said that he was from the State Security
17 Service, he did not say that he was the chief of anything else. I was
18 astounded by Stanisic's knowledge about our situation Podrinje. Some
19 things he even knew better than I did. He knew who was fighting in which
20 village, who was in command, who ... I really was a bit amazed."
21 MR. GROOME:
22 Q. Now that we have viewed 65 ter 2608.1, clip number 2, could you
23 please tell us to the best of your recollection when this meeting
25 A. I think the meeting occurred at -- on the 23rd of January, 1993
1 at the river Tara
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: At Mount Tara.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. And can you tell us the precise name of where the -- or the
5 location where the meeting was held. Was it held in a particular
7 A. Hotel Omorika, Mount Tara
8 Q. And now, General, are your comments as recorded in this clip
9 accurate and truthful?
10 A. Yes, they are.
11 Q. And the person that you describe as Badza, do we see him at all
12 in this documentary or in that last clip?
13 A. First of all, I wanted to tell you that on the screen I wasn't
14 able to see when the translation of the spoken parts ends. In any case,
15 one can see Badza at the very beginning of the footage.
16 Q. So the first person that is visible is Badza, the person you
17 refer to as Badza?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can you tell us how was he dressed during this meeting?
20 A. The same way we could see him on the footage.
21 Q. And did you have -- did you ever say anything to him or did he
22 ever say anything to you over the course of this meeting or in the time
23 before or after this meeting?
24 A. We greeted each other at the meeting. We listened to Jovica, and
25 General Panic, Badza, he, and I discussed matters whilst the other
1 generals and colonels worked on other issues in different rooms. As you
2 could see on the footage, I was quite amazed with the extent of
3 Stanisic's knowledge and information about particular areas in Bosnia
4 wasn't very familiar with Eastern Bosnian. I was quite amazed to hear
5 him speak about the the village of Klotijevac
6 Following that, I asked General Panic who this person was. He told me
7 that he was from the police, although he did not specify what his name
8 was. I asked Badza who he was. He said, "I arrived here with the boss."
9 Later on in the evening, when I returned to the Main Staff, I
10 told everyone what I could see at Mount Tara
11 told me, "Well, that was Jovica Stanisic, the head of the state security
12 sector in Serbia
13 Main Staff who shared that information with me. That was my first
14 encounter with Jovica Stanisic.
15 Q. And at the meeting in the Main Staff afterward, was there any
16 discussion about who Badza was?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And when Badza made the statement about "here with the boss," did
19 he make any gesture indicating who he was referring to?
20 A. He did not, otherwise I would have concluded there and then that
21 Jovica was his boss. He merely said, "I'm here with the boss."
22 Q. And from what you could see, was there anyone else with Badza
23 that appeared to come or leave with Badza or associate with him over the
24 course of the meeting?
25 A. Sir, again I have a problem with the monitor. I can't see -- I
1 can't follow the transcript, hence I can't see when interpretation is
2 finished and when I can start answering. As I said, save for Badza and
3 Jovica, there was no one else with them.
4 Thank you.
5 It was Panic, Jovica, Badza, and I sitting around the table, the
6 four of us.
7 Q. Sir, after this meeting, did you yourself, based on your own
8 observations, form an opinion with respect to the relationship between
9 Badza and Jovica Stanisic?
10 A. To tell you the truth, I never thought about those people again
11 until I met Jovica later on at a number of other meetings.
12 Q. Did Badza ever tell you what his responsibilities were or what
13 his job was?
14 A. We never discussed his or my job. I knew that Badza, at the
15 time, commanded some special units or that he was responsible for the
16 special units of the MUP of Serbia.
17 Q. Now, the MUP of Serbia has two divisions, the public security
18 sector and the state security sector. Do you know whether the public
19 security sector has special units?
20 A. The public security sector?
21 Q. Yes, sir.
22 A. I don't know. I wasn't familiar with the structure of the
23 Serbian MUP. I was familiar with the structure of the RS MUP, though.
24 Q. Did the RS MUP public security sector have special units?
25 A. It had two special police brigades which were mostly used in
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
3 these two clips from 65 ter 2608.1.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
5 Madam Registrar, would you please assign a number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Two clips of 65 ter 2608.1 become Exhibit P376,
7 Your Honour.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Now, General, I would like to play --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
11 [Stanisic Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: P376 is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. General, I would now like to play you a longer clip in which you
15 talk about an operation known as Pauk.
16 MR. GROOME: I would ask that Mr. Laugel now play 65 ter 2609.2,
17 clip 1. It is from the second part of the documentary "The Unit." It is
18 a clip that commences at 23 minutes, 5 seconds, of the original
19 documentary and ends at 25 minutes, 33 seconds.
20 Your Honours, so that the record is clear, the original
21 documentary contains the interview of General Milovanovic interwoven with
22 other material. The Prosecutor considered -- the Prosecution considered
23 that editing out the short pieces of material between
24 General Milovanovic's comments would have made the clip incomprehensible.
25 The Prosecution only relies on the comments of General Milovanovic. Of
1 course, if the Chamber wants us to edit out these short passages, we will
2 do that.
3 Q. So, General, I would ask you now to please watch and listen to
4 65 ter 2609.2, clip number 1.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 "Manojlo Milovanovic: I arrived there on 12 February 1995
7 orders from General Mladic. He had conveyed to me that this was the
8 stance of both the Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council and our own Supreme
9 Command, that I should take over command of Operation Spider.
10 "Narrator: While waiting for the hand-over of duties,
11 Milovanovic inspected the front line. The initial skirmishes between
12 Abdic's Territorial Defence and the 5th Corps soon turned into
13 exceptionally vicious fighting. In fact, the bloodiest combat unfolded
14 between the Muslims themselves.
15 "Manojlo Milovanovic: I watched those soldiers of Fikret's.
16 They fought like mad. I watched a platoon in attack, it was dreadful.
17 Their number was halved by the men of the 5th Corps, yet they continued
18 crawling, pushing some concrete construction blocks in front of them.
19 They tried rolling those blocks, their fingers flying off.
20 "Atif Dudakovic: According to some figures, as many as 1.700 of
21 Abdic's soldiers were killed in the fighting against the 5th Corps, while
22 1.300 of Abdic's soldiers were killed in fighting against the Serbian
23 Krajina army. This shows that in terms of intensity the fighting between
24 the 5th Corps and Abdic's forces was more severe.
25 "Narrator: Legija and Rajo Bozovic, whose code-name on this
1 occasion was Kobac, would take their orders only from Frenki.
2 "Manojlo Milovanovic: Frenki then arrived accompanied by another
3 man who also wore a red beret and blue uniform. I believe his name was
4 Bozovic and that he held a rank of colonel. They didn't stay long
5 because things were, as one would say, really hot. We only greeted each
6 other. I asked Frenki, as I had heard about him but had never seen him
7 before, 'What are you doing here?' He replied, 'Jovica Stanisic has
8 come, and I have come with him.'
9 "Narrator: Even so, Milovanovic never became the commander of
10 Operation Spider.
11 "Manojlo Milovanovic: Not a single general or Yugoslav army
12 officer who would carry out the rotation, replace General Novakovic and
13 appoint me, came to the meeting. Instead Jovica Stanisic came. I
14 believe he was the chief of the Serbian state security. I told him,
15 'Jovica, I will not carry out orders from you. You are a policeman not a
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. Now, my first question is: The portions of that clip which
19 purport to record what you have said, are they accurate and truthful?
20 A. Yes, they are.
21 Q. At the beginning of the clip you refer to the date
22 12 February 1995
23 General Mladic?
24 A. No, that is not the date. It was on the 22nd of February, 1995
25 ten days later.
1 Q. Now, in the passage you say: "He had conveyed to me that this
2 was the stance of both the Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council" -- I'm
3 sorry, I think I am maybe a bit ahead of myself.
4 Can I ask you to describe in a little more detail your
5 interaction with Jovica Stanisic.
6 A. Since you asked the Presiding Judge for permission to comment on
7 the previous excerpt, I would also seek similar leave to comment so as
8 not to misinform the Chamber much the way it happened at the beginning of
9 the testimony concerning June. Sometime in mid-February 1995,
10 General Mladic was in Belgrade
11 get ready, and that in a few days I was to travel to a place called
12 Samarice. At first I thought it was Sumarica, where the monument to the
13 Serbs killed near Kragujevac was. I asked him why was I to go to
14 Kragujevac. And he said, "No, not there, you're going to Petrova Gora."
15 I guess the place where a command there was was called Samarice. In any
16 case, he told me, "Most probably you will assume command of Operation
17 Spider. You will remain the Chief of Staff, and upon completion of that
18 task you will return to Han Pijesak."
19 I was familiar with Operation Spider, I knew who was supposed to
20 carry it out and how, and I also knew that as part of the forces of the
21 Republic of Srpska Krajina, there were also Fikret Abdic's forces or the
22 so-called the People's Defence of Western Bosnia. I will discuss that
23 later as well.
24 Five months prior to that, I had refused to co-operate with the
25 People's Defence of the Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia, and at that
1 time I told Mladic, "Boss, I won't command any Muslims, even if they were
2 Abdic's men." He said, "Implement my order because this is an order of
3 the supreme commander, Mr. Karadzic. You are to go to Petrova Gora."
4 I arrived there on the 22nd. When the meeting was supposed to
5 take place, I was told that the entire Supreme Command of the Republic of
6 Srpska Krajina was to attend as well as the commander of our 2nd Krajina
7 Corps, General Tomanic, and that there will be someone from Yugoslavia
8 When I arrived on the 22nd in the area of Petrova Gora, I was told that
9 the meeting was postponed for the next day, the 23rd. I located General
10 Mile Novakovic, who was in command of Operation Spider. We placed our --
11 we placed insignia on our sleeves, indicating that we were members of the
12 force of the autonomous province of Western Bosnia, so as to be able to
13 move through check-points. Mile wanted to take me to the front line to
14 see -- to show me how those people fought. We -- on the way we went to
15 an observation point where he had a small office and we observed this
16 group in attack referred to in the footage, advancing down a slope.
17 These were Fikret Abdic's men.
18 As we were watching, two men in uniform approached us, one in
19 camouflage military uniform and the other in a police uniform. The one
20 wearing the police uniform had the insignia indicating that he was a
21 colonel. Since I had never seen Frenki in uniform, I asked him who he
22 was, and he said, "I am Frenki." In reply I said, "Oh, so you're the
23 one." The other one introduced himself - I still think it was
24 Bozovic - he spoke with a Montenegrin dialect, and I concluded that he
25 also came from Yugoslavia
1 he said, "Well, Jovica Stanisic arrived and I came with him." I think
2 the conversation took less than two minutes and we had to move out
3 because the situation got really hot, as I put it in the footage. There
4 was some fierce fighting.
5 The next day I arrived in the place where I was told the meeting
6 was to be held, in a building at Petrova Gora. I didn't know then and I
7 still don't know what the building was used for. A policeman took us to
8 the first floor, into a room where I found Jovica Stanisic. I asked him,
9 "Jovica, why -- what are you doing here?" And he said, "Well, I'm here
10 to attend the meeting."
11 We entered the room, the meeting room, and out of the officers
12 there the most senior person was the Chief of Staff of the Serbian
13 Krajina army, Major-General Dusan Loncar. There were a number of corps
14 commanders whom I recognised, as well as some other officers. In total
15 there were between 40 and 50 men in the meeting room.
16 Jovica told them -- well, yes, Frenki was there. Jovica spoke to
17 them about the disaccord or rifts among the political leadership in -- of
18 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, saying that if they were to go on like
19 that, fighting for power and positions, that they were going to lose the
20 war. Frenki discussed problems, mostly security and political problems
21 in the 18th and 39th Corps of the Serb Krajina army. I think it is the
22 Okucani and Banija Corps. He said that similar things were taking place
23 there and that cargo trucks were being stopped carrying assistance and
24 humanitarian aid for the Republic of Serbian Krajina, stating that the
25 army was stopping them and taking goods.
1 At the end of the meeting Jovica Stanisic said that the duty of
2 the commander or command of Operation Spider was to be taken over by
3 General Milovanovic. I asked Jovica, "On whose decision?" And his
4 answer was, "It was the decision of the staff [as interpreted] of the
5 Army of Republika Srpska and the Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council."
6 I told Jovica that I wasn't going to do that. My explanation was
7 as I've already stated earlier, repeating that I was not going to command
8 any Muslim forces, irrespective of who they belonged to, because if we
9 got lucky and defeated the 5th Corps of Atif Dudakovic, who was to make
10 any guarantees to me that I wasn't going to fight Abdic's army the next
12 Second of all, the area of Bihac was not within our sphere of
13 interest of Republika Srpska. At the beginning of the war we -- the
14 borders decided on were supposed to go via Drina, Sava
15 Neretva rivers. I left the meeting, Jovica followed, trying to persuade
16 me, but it didn't do him any good. In the hallway he opened the doors of
17 a room, stating, "There's a man who wants to see you." I thought it
18 would be an officer of my generation from back at school, but when I got
19 in, I encountered Fikret Abdic. He was seated there on a couch, drinking
20 milk. He seemed to have a cold. That was my first meeting with
21 Fikret Abdic -- actually, on the 8th of November, 1994, I met him for the
22 first time together with Jovica Stanisic, and on that occasion I did not
23 greet him.
24 On this occasion, however, I wanted to appear more civil so I did
25 greet him and we spoke for about three to four minutes, upon which I left
1 the room. Before that, I said good-byes to Jovica Stanisic and returned
2 to the Main Staff. No one ever asked me afterwards why I refused to
3 assume command of Operation Spider.
4 Q. Now, General, if I can just take you back and ask you a specific
5 question about what you have just told us. The transcript at page 28,
6 line 21, records you as saying the follows:
7 "I asked Jovica, 'On whose decision?' And his answer was, 'It
8 was the decision of the staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the
9 Yugoslav Supreme Defence Council.'"
10 Did the record correctly record what you remember Jovica Stanisic
11 saying to you?
12 A. I'm positive that he did not say the staff of the Army of
13 Republika Srpska. He could only have said of the Supreme Command of
14 Republika Srpska. As I've said at the beginning of my testimony on this
15 issue, General Mladic phoned me from Belgrade
16 hence the Main Staff did not sit and discuss this. General Mladic also
17 left the decision to me. He didn't decide that I should assume that
18 duty. Had he done so, I would have obeyed his order --
19 Q. General, just before we get too far away from it, since there is
20 some confusion, it appears, can I ask you to say again, as accurately as
21 you're able, what precisely did Jovica Stanisic say to you at this
23 A. I asked Jovica on whose orders he was to convey it to me. He
24 said, "Based on the decision of the Supreme Defence Council of the FRY
25 and the Supreme Command of the armed forces of Republika Srpska." On the
1 table in front of him there was a piece of paper. He indicated the name
2 of Slobodan Milosevic with a pencil in his hand. It was towards the
3 bottom of the page. I don't know what the paper actually contained and
4 whether it was an order or not, but I only know that since he indicated
5 the name to me, I assumed he didn't want anyone else to hear his name
6 mentioned. And I told him, "Only Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic could
7 issue orders to me, not this person."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, we usually have sessions of 75 minutes.
9 It's quarter past 10.00. Could you find a suitable moment, whether that
10 would be now or within the next five minutes, to have a break.
11 MR. GROOME: This would be suitable, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: This would be a suitable moment.
13 Then we'll have a break and resume at quarter to 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, you may proceed.
17 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. General, there's a great volume of other material I want to ask
19 you questions about today. I'm concerned about the time, so I'm going to
20 play the remaining clips from the documentary. This next clip, I won't
21 ask for any extensive comment on. I would just ask you whether it's
22 accurate and truthful. If we have time at the end of your testimony or
23 at the end of this examination, I will come back to it.
24 MR. GROOME: Could I ask Mr. Laugel play the next clip,
25 65 ter 2609.2, clip number 2 from this video. It is approximately one
1 minute in duration and is found in the original complete documentary
2 beginning at 36 minutes, 45 seconds.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 "Manojlo Milovanovic: Sometime in the evening, I received a call
5 from a Drina Corps colonel. His name was Svetozar Andric. Furious and
6 revolted, he said: 'General, can anybody be allowed to beat Serbian
7 officers?' Not knowing what it was about, I replied: 'They can. The
8 Muslims beat us every time they get a chance to.' But he said: 'I was
9 just beaten up by Arkan.' I asked him: "Where?' He said: 'In
10 Prijedor.' 'What was Arkan doing there?' I asked. Andric replied: 'I
11 don't know.'
12 "Colonel, Former VRS Brigade Commander: He simply arrested one
13 of the officers of my brigade, in the area between Sanski Most and
14 Prijedor. Arkan didn't arrest him; he intercepted him like a criminal on
15 the road, took his vehicle, and shaved the man's head. Arkan abused him
16 for a completely incomprehensible reason: The man didn't hold a pass
17 issued by Arkan.
18 "Manojlo Milanovic: 'They intercepted me and beat me,' said the
19 man as he returned from the front, I don't know where. He said: 'They
20 beat me. He, himself, beat me.'"
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, for the sake of a clear record, the
22 passage -- there was another person speaking in the middle of that who
23 was not identified. The text that he began his intervention was: "He
24 simply arrested," and it ended with "pass issued by Arkan." The
25 remainder of that was Colonel -- or General Milovanovic.
1 Q. General, is that passage -- is your portion or the portion that
2 you speak in that passage truthful and accurate?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. I would now --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, is there any way that we could get a
6 time-frame for the events the witness was talking about in this
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Can you orient us as to time and location with respect to what
10 you are referring to in this videotape?
11 A. It was approximately in early September 1995.
12 MR. GROOME: Now, I'd ask Mr. Laugel to play 65 ter number
13 2609.2, clip 3. This clip is found at 38 minutes, 35 seconds, to
14 40 minutes, 2 seconds of the original and complete documentary.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 "Manojlo Milovanovic: I asked: 'On whose order did you come
17 here? How did you get here in the first place?' He replied: 'I came
18 here on President Karadzic's order.' Karadzic was present, sitting
19 opposite me, but Karadzic kept quiet and so did Krajisnik. Karadzic was
20 fiddling his fingers like a child who had done something wrong. 'Let me
21 see that order!' Arkan replied: 'I left it at the hotel.'
22 'Mr. President, does Arkan have your order to come here?' Karadzic
23 failed to say either 'yes' or 'no,' and he remained silent.
24 "At that point Arkan started talking hot air, saying how hard it
25 was for him to leave his 22-year-old wife behind him who was pining after
1 him. He had just married Ceca. I said: 'What do I care about your
2 22-year-old wife?' Mladic and I had already agreed on how to get rid of
3 Arkan. I said: 'I will be going to Manjaca this evening to drive out
4 your remaining soldiers, while Mladic will do the same in Kotorski, as he
5 has set off for Han Pijesak. In 24 hours' time, there will be no trace
6 of you here!'"
7 Q. Now, General, again, is this truthful and accurate, the
8 information that you provided in this documentary?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Now, General, you refer to specific plans to expel Arkan at this
11 period. And first maybe if I could ask you, could you orient us again as
12 to -- as to time-period that you're speaking about?
13 A. I think it was in late September 1995.
14 Q. And it appears from what your -- your comments that there were
15 specific plans to expel Arkan at that time. And my question to you is:
16 Were you able or did you have an estimate of how many of Arkan's fighters
17 were in the area controlled by the Army of the Republika Srpska?
18 A. I did not have precise information. I only know -- I only knew
19 that Arkan was there with a group of fighters. I don't think it was the
20 whole brigade, though, but I cannot tell you anything precisely.
21 Q. And then the other question that I have with respect to your --
22 this particular clip, there's a reference to an order. Did you ever see
23 that written order? Was it ever brought for you to see?
24 A. I was never shown it.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time I have concluded my
1 questions arising out of General Milovanovic's interview in the second
2 part of the documentary "The Unit." At this time I would tender 2609.2
3 into evidence. It is comprised of the three clips bearing the time codes
4 previously mentioned.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P377, Your Honour.
8 MR. GROOME:
9 Q. Now, General, yesterday --
10 JUDGE ORIE: P377 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. General, after you arrived at the Tribunal, were you asked to
14 review a number of official documents of the Army of Republika Srpska and
15 give your opinion as to whether the documents were authentic?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. I would like to now ask you a series of questions related to
18 these documents.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, General Milovanovic has been quite
20 resolute in expressing his strong wish that all of his testimony be heard
21 in public session, but I want to ask him about documents which are
22 presently subject to some restriction and must be discussed in private
23 session. Could I ask that we move into private session briefly to
24 discuss the matter.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the -- this set of documents relates to
5 the newly acquired diaries and other documents that have been seized and
6 provided by the Government of Serbia
7 matter entirely in public if we do two things. One, that the chart that
8 General Milovanovic filled out is not displayed on the monitor; and two,
9 that General Milovanovic not say who he recognises the author of these
10 books, but to simply states that he has recorded that fact on the sheet
11 that we are looking at on our screens.
12 In addition to allowing as much of these proceedings to proceed
13 in public as possible, there is the added benefit to taking this
14 evidence -- there is an added benefit to taking this evidence in public
15 session. It is likely that these books will be relevant in several
16 trials before the Tribunal. This limited portion of
17 General Milovanovic's evidence, if given publicly, may be used by
18 Prosecution and Defence teams in other cases to establish the
19 authenticity of these books without having to seek variations of
20 protective measures from this Chamber. It will also serve --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the reason why Mr. Weber had not switched off
22 his telephone are known by the Chamber, and the Chamber has accepted it.
23 Mr. Weber.
24 MR. GROOME: It will also serve as -- it will also make it
25 possible for other Defence teams to be on notice about
1 General Milovanovic's testimony once any possible motion by the
2 Government of Serbia
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 First of all, Mr. Milovanovic, the Chamber appreciates that you
5 insist on giving your testimony in public. At the same time, this
6 Tribunal sometimes engages in obligations towards the parties that
7 provide certain documents, and here this is not public knowledge.
8 Therefore, you should not speak with anyone about it. It is the
9 Republic of Serbia
10 this moment, will not be dealt with in public session or at least not to
11 reveal the documents in public session.
12 May I take it that if this is the reason why we would hear either
13 your testimony in closed session or hear your testimony in such a way
14 that the documents will not be identified, if you would testify in public
15 session that you have no problems in meeting in this way the request by
16 the Government of the Republic of Serbia
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned,
18 Your Honour, I'm here because I was summoned to appear before you. And
19 it is certainly in my interest as well to meet the request of the
20 Government of the Republic of Serbia
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Could I hear from the Defence whether the proposed course to be
23 taken meets any objection. And I am inclined, but let me just check with
24 my colleagues ...
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has some preference for hearing your
2 testimony also in this respect in open session, but then in such a way
3 that we'll not specifically refer to what the documents exactly are apart
4 from that we can see it on our screens. And I take it then that the
5 charts would be sought to be admitted into evidence and that they'll be
6 confidential exhibits.
7 Further, if it comes to books, I would even speak in a more
8 neutral way about documents because people might ask themselves why we
9 are suddenly talking about books and what those books are. And
10 therefore, I would just refer to exhibits or give the 65 ter numbers
11 rather than to refer to what we know are books but which might give a
12 clue to what the material really is.
13 MR. GROOME: And, Your Honour, before we go back into public
14 session, if I can just take this advantage of the opportunity to avoid
15 confusion later on in the examination, I will ask the General to deal
16 with two diaries of General Mladic that there are no request for
17 protective measures and they have been used publicly in other trials, so
18 not to be alarmed when I, all of a sudden, start talking about such
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I must admit that I do not follow in every
21 detail what happens in every trials, not because I'm not interested but
22 because I just don't find the time.
23 Then, Mr. Milovanovic, please carefully listen to the way in
24 which Mr. Groome will phrase his question and avoid in answering that the
25 documents which are provided to the Tribunal as confidential documents at
1 this moment, that your answers will not be such that the public could
2 identify what these documents are. If you think that you couldn't answer
3 the question in such a way, then please ask us to go into private session
4 for a moment so that you can speak freely if there's any need to include
5 in your answer any clue to the -- what the documents exactly are.
6 What you see on your screen then will not be shown to the public.
7 Is that clear to you?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move back into open session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. General, I did not ask you any questions while we were in private
15 session, and with the Court's permission, we will proceed cautiously in
16 public session. So I would ask you to give me short, precise answers to
17 the questions I'm about to ask you.
18 The first question is: Were you asked to look at a series of
19 18 documents after you arrived here in Holland? Yes or no, if you can.
20 A. Yes, I was.
21 Q. Were you told who the author of these documents was prior to
22 being allowed to see them? Yes or no, if you can.
23 A. I was not told, but I concluded that myself.
24 Q. Were you provided any information regarding where the documents
25 came from? Yes or no, if you can.
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. Without mentioning any names, did you recognise the handwriting
3 of the person who wrote in these documents, the person or persons who
4 wrote in these documents? Yes or no, if you can.
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would ask at this time that document
7 number 5287 be brought to the screens before us and that it not be
8 displayed to the public. It is a chart containing the notations made by
9 this witness.
10 Q. General, while we're waiting for the English, if I can ask you,
11 do you recognise the document that you see on the left-hand side of the
12 screen? Yes or no, if you can.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is this where you recorded the identity of the person whose
15 handwriting you recognised -- the person or persons whose handwriting you
16 recognised on the document that is now before us? I'm sorry, let me
17 rephrase that.
18 The document that we're looking at, is this where you recorded
19 the identity of the person or persons whose handwriting you recognise
20 when you reviewed the 18 documents?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. This is a two-page document. Did you -- can I ask you, did you
23 see your signature on that document?
24 A. I do.
25 MR. GROOME: Could we please turn to the second page.
1 Q. While we're waiting for the second page, could I ask you, do you
2 affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of the notes you made on the chart
3 that we now have before us?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. I believe the second page now is coming up before you, and I ask
6 you, do you see your signature on the second page?
7 A. No.
8 MR. GROOME: That's the wrong document.
9 Your Honour, there may be a problem. If we could --
10 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that we have the English version before us
11 for the second page, whereas for the other -- for the first page -- we
12 have the English version of the second page before us. For the first
13 page, the signature was on the original, not on the English translation.
14 MR. GROOME: Mr. Laugel -- we're looking at it on our monitor.
15 I'm not technically --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check what we have in the original.
17 Yes, the original version has ...
18 MR. GROOME: And if we could just scroll down to the bottom.
19 Q. General, do you see your signature on this document?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would ask that the
22 document on the screen be marked for identification, and given the
23 sensitivity, although the public usually doesn't have access to exhibits
24 marked for identification, maybe that we note that it be placed under
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before we do so let me just try to
2 understand what I'm looking at.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I might be able to enlighten
4 the Chamber as to the handwritten notes on the bottom if that's the
5 question --
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm first of all interested in the -- I see
7 that in the fourth column names appear. Now, what the fourth column
8 stands for, you wouldn't expect the names we see there; you would rather
9 expect that to be in the fifth column, as we find it on the first page.
10 But if that's explained in the handwriting, that is fine.
11 MR. GROOME: It is not, Your Honour. And perhaps the best way to
12 deal with this if we could have an image of that on the screen, I will
13 ask the witness to make -- if he needs to make any corrections and we can
14 save a copy, an edited copy that he does right here in court. Would that
15 be acceptable?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I briefly ask the witness.
17 Mr. Milovanovic, I see that on the first page of this document
18 you have initialled the third column. Consistently you have made some
19 changes to the ERN numbers. Then the third column -- the fourth column
20 is on the first page empty. And then in the fifth column names appear.
21 Now, on the second page, again your initials appear in the third column,
22 then names which we find on the first page in the fifth column here now
23 appear in the fourth column, which seems to be a bit illogical if you
24 look at the heading of that fourth column.
25 Was it your intention to write down the names we now find in the
1 fourth column, to write them down in the fifth column, as you did on the
2 first page?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, so this is just a
4 technical error. The first page was shown to me how this was done. I
5 guess the second page wasn't. I think the people who were working with
6 me thought that I would be bright enough to get it, but I actually wrote
7 it in the wrong column. So everything that's in the fourth column should
8 be entered in the fifth column and the fourth column should be blank.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is now clear.
10 Then we perhaps now move on to the handwriting at the bottom.
11 Mr. Groome, you may proceed.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if the Court will accept my
13 representation until the English translation is done, but there were some
14 documents contained in -- among the documents that General Milovanovic
15 did not recognise the handwriting and he simply noted the ERN number of
16 those documents. And the last one, Your Honour, is just an explanation
17 that he did not have sufficient time to study the documents in order to
18 adequately fill out column 6 and that's why column 6 has been left blank.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With these clarifications, is there any
20 objection to admission into evidence?
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm sorry.
23 MR. GROOME: I -- because I have not made a motion to actually
24 introduce --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. GROOME: -- I thought it more appropriate to leave it as
2 marked for identification.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
4 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, could I just raise one point.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
6 MR. JORDASH: I was wondering if --
7 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session, as you are aware of, yes.
8 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
9 When the witness was asked whether he was provided with any
10 information regarding where the documents came from, he answered "yes."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you would like to know what he was --
12 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps we should move for that purpose
14 into private session in order to avoid any risk.
15 We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Witness, when you said that you were provided with information as
20 to where these documents came from, could you tell us what the
21 information was you received?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I speak with the open text?
23 JUDGE ORIE: You mean that you have the text on your screen or
24 that we are -- at this moment the public will not hear your testimony.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I can say what the Prosecutor
1 told me while preparing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told that the documents were
4 received from the Government of the Republic of Serbia
5 something that I should keep confidential.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was anything else told you -- told to you
7 as -- were any further details given?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just explained to me how I
9 should fill in this form.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But, for example, you were not told where they had
11 been found, in archives, or whether that was in Banja Luka or Belgrade
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, does this --
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- sufficiently deal with the matter?
18 Then we move into open session again.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 Usually I do not ask whether there's any objection for documents
23 to be marked for identification because they are not then admitted into
24 evidence. At the same time, if a document is marked for identification,
25 then certainly the answers given to questions may have some evidentiary
1 value. No objections.
2 Madam Registrar, the documents.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P378, marked for
4 identification, under seal, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It will keep that status, under seal.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
7 MR. GROOME: I would ask that document number 5288 be displayed
8 on the screen. It is a two-page document containing both typed and
9 handwritten text.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown to the public?
11 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, this one can be shown to the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
14 MR. GROOME: I just pause because I'm not sure that we have the
15 English translation yet. It was just done last night, but I suppose
16 we'll see in the next minute or two.
17 Q. General, while we're waiting for that to come up, were you also
18 asked to review a binder of 11 documents originating from the
19 Army of Republika Srpska?
20 A. I was shown a number of binders yesterday, so I'm not sure
21 exactly which one you're thinking of. There were some with 11, less,
22 more, and so on and so forth.
23 Q. The one I'm asking you about now is the binder with 11 documents,
24 and your notes regarding that are now on the screen before you. So maybe
25 if you take a look at that, and I ask you, does that refresh your
1 recollection as to which specific binder you were asked to look at.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you review these documents and form an opinion with respect
4 to whether the documents are copies of authentic documents originating
5 from the Army of Republika Srpska?
6 A. All the documents that were reviewed were copies.
7 Q. And based upon your review of these copies, were you able to form
8 an opinion or an assessment as to whether they were copies of authentic
9 documents of the VRS?
10 A. That should be entered in the review. If a document was
11 authentic, I would put yes; and if not, I would enter a no.
12 Q. And what we're looking at before you, is this the document upon
13 which you recorded your assessment of these 11 documents?
14 MR. GROOME: Perhaps if we could zoom out a little bit, it might
15 be easier for the witness to see.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right. Every document has
17 my initials with a brief comment on the document.
18 MR. GROOME: And if we could go to the second page.
19 Q. And while we're waiting for the second page, did you record these
20 comments in the right-hand column of this document?
21 A. Yes, this is in column 7.
22 Q. And is the document that we're looking at a fair and accurate
23 representation of the comments that you recorded yesterday when you
24 reviewed these 11 documents?
25 A. Yes, as I see my handwriting there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, I notice that in the English version
2 initials which are asked for in columns 5 and 6 are not present, whereas
3 they seem to be present in the original.
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps I could address that and
5 then I would ask that it be marked for identification at this point in
6 time and I'll have the translation unit --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then provide for at least the full English
9 Yes, please.
10 MR. GROOME: So, Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution does
11 ask that this be marked for identification.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 I take it that the parties have seen that the English version is
14 not complete because some of the handwriting is missing. Furthermore,
15 where it says "Signature," the -- a reference to a signature is missing
16 at the bottom of the document, whereas in the original we see that there
17 is a signature in blue handwriting.
18 Any objections?
19 Madam Registrar, could you please assign a number for this
20 document to be marked for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P379, marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It will keep that
24 status for the time being.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. General, do I correctly summarise your assessment of the
3 authenticity of these documents when I say the following, that you found
4 that all of them were authentic with the exception of document number 4
5 on the list, and for that document you did not believe that you were able
6 to make an assessment of the authenticity of that document. Have I
7 correctly stated your conclusions with respect to these 11 documents?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'm going to tender the
10 exhibits referenced here, with the exception of number 4, which is
11 65 ter 94. And, Your Honour, taking the point that the Chamber has made
12 on several occasions, the Chamber is able to read documents that are
13 clear on their face for themselves. Given that each of these ten
14 documents speaks for itself and given the unique situation in which
15 General Milovanovic has refused to be a witness in the case and that he
16 only arrived in The Hague
17 Prosecution has been unable to determine whether he has any particular
18 knowledge over and above what the documents say on their face. The
19 Prosecution believes it would not necessarily be productive or efficient
20 for me to now ask the General to read each of these documents in your
21 presence and comment. So it is not my intention to do so. I recognise
22 that the right and the interest -- I recognise that the Defence and the
23 Chamber may have an interest in asking questions about these documents,
24 but the Prosecution at this time is content to rest on the simple text of
25 the document and has no additional questions for General Milovanovic.
1 And with that, Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender the ten
2 documents that are identified in this chart and the 65 ter number is
3 included on the chart.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to that, you summarised what the
5 position of the witness was in relation to the authenticity. While I
6 tried to follow you in respect of document number 7 -- well, the only way
7 of making that an authentic document is -- requires some intellectual
8 gymnastics because I see in the original in the column "Not authentic," a
9 "no." Now, if you take that literally, you could say if the question of
10 being not authentic is answered by no, you could conclude that it is
11 authentic. But that is a kind of gymnastics which I would not -- it is
12 more likely I would say that the witness by writing "ne" denies the
13 authenticity of document number 7.
14 Could you comment on that, Mr. Groome, on what basis you said
15 that it was only in relation to document 4 that the witness denied
16 authenticity and that for all the others he confirmed the authenticity.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with -- it's my mistake. If I could
18 clarify what it is he has to say with respect to 7, perhaps --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we can read that, but if you would change your
20 summary in that the witness has denied in respect of documents 4 and 7 --
21 let me just look at it.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, now that I'm able to see the English
23 translation, I withdraw my tendering of 65 ter 4696. I don't believe
24 that there is proper basis at this time for admission of that document.
25 So I would withdraw my application with respect to items 4 and 7 on this
1 list, that's 65 ter 94 and 65 ter 4696.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any objections?
3 MR. JORDASH: There are objections to the admission of the
4 documents. We obviously -- well, maybe not obviously, but we accept that
5 the Prosecution have crossed the authenticity threshold, but what the
6 Prosecution have to do, we submit, is then cross the relevance threshold.
7 And because this witness has attended subject to a subpoena does not
8 obviate the need for the Prosecution to explain either through a bar
9 table motion or through a witness the precise relevance and probative
10 value of these documents.
11 If I can just take one particular example to demonstrate the
12 point, Exhibit 105 -- I think it's 105.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's number 9 on the list, Mr. Jordash.
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour. Is a 165-page
15 document, detailing, as the title suggests, the combat-readiness and the
16 activities of the Republika Srpska in 1992. It cannot be, we submit,
17 that every page of that document is relevant. And it cannot be that, in
18 our submission, that that document can be simply tendered without some
19 explanation as to why the combat-readiness of the VRS is relevant to the
20 charges in this indictment.
21 There are another -- a number of other documents which we have
22 the same precise issue with, which we cannot actually work out what the
23 probative value of the document is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. JORDASH: Those are my submissions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we have two issues here, Mr. Groome, I think
2 identified by Mr. Jordash: Relevance and probative value. That is a
3 question which is not answered just by authenticity. I could provide you
4 with a lot of authentic documents which have no relevance and no
5 probative value.
6 Now, usually if a witness does not give any information as to the
7 content of documents, which he does not here, at least I would have to go
8 through the seventh column in detail before I would know whether we find
9 anything in there. But as Mr. Jordash said, sometimes there are very
10 lengthy documents. We have not heard any evidence on the content of it.
11 It sounds as if we are dealing with bar table documents, where any debate
12 on authenticity is avoided by providing evidence as to the authenticity
13 of these documents, which would lead me to suggest that we deal with
14 these documents as with -- as we usually do with bar table documents, is
15 that we have a chart and that you briefly describe the relevance for what
16 portions of the -- what portions of the indictment they relate to and any
17 other matter, which is what to focus on. For example, if we have a very
18 lengthy document, the Chamber is invited to look at page so and so and
19 so, so that we know what you are seeking to establish through these
20 documents because the mere fact that they're authentic is fine but
21 doesn't give much guidance for the Chamber as to how to -- what to
22 specifically look at. That we then follow the usual procedure for bar
23 table documents, that the Defence is able to comment on that, and that
24 the Chamber would then receive the chart knowing what the relevance is,
25 where to look in the document, what the comment of the Defence is, so
1 that we with all that information then can decide on admission.
2 Is this -- I'm first looking to you whether that's -- whether you
3 consider this suggestion to be one which is practical.
4 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution does, Your Honour. So at this
5 point --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll ask the Defence teams whether they would
7 agree. So apart from the authenticity, to deal with these documents as
8 if it were a bar table submission, which would meet, I think, the
9 concerns you have expressed, Mr. Jordash.
10 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. During our cross-examination we
11 may ask the witness about some of the documents, which would then obviate
12 the need for the bar table motion. But yes, we agree in principle.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, if you start asking questions about
14 the substance of the documents, then of course they lose more or less
15 their character of bar table documents and might well then -- that we
16 have to decide on admission of those specific documents already at that
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we absolutely agree
21 with your proposal. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Then since the witness has written down his observations as far
24 as authenticity is concerned, I suggest that for the time being that the
25 documents will be bar tabled, but we also could wait -- could be MFI'd,
1 but, of course, we could also wait because in the previously admitted
2 exhibit we have all the relevant information. Although for the other
3 chart, we have chosen for the option that the -- let me see. No, you
4 didn't seek their -- the underlying documents all to be MFI'd?
5 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I believe I'd have to -- the
6 Prosecution would have to make an application to amend our 65 ter exhibit
7 list, so we would do that first.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would have one concern, that if they're not
9 MFI'd, they do not appear -- it would not appear on our MFI list, and
10 therefore they might get lost somewhere in the further proceedings.
11 So therefore, I would like to -- Madam Registrar, to prepare a
12 list giving the 65 ter numbers, to copy the description of the document,
13 and then on that same list, with the exceptions of the numbers 4 and 7
14 appearing on this list, to prepare a list in which provisionally numbers
15 will be assigned. And then once we have received that list, we'll MFI
16 those documents under those numbers suggested by Madam Registrar. And
17 then at a later stage, we'll receive or not receive a bar table motion in
18 the format as the Chamber usually requests.
19 Madam Registrar, if you would prepare that, then we'll deal with
20 that at a later stage.
21 Perhaps we could already reserve nine numbers on the list, which
22 will then appear on the further prepared list at a later stage, but that
23 we would leave those numbers for the time being open as being the
24 expected MFI numbers for those nine documents.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: I would ask that the Court Officer call up
2 65 ter 5067 on the screen. It is a document dated 21st of February,
3 1994, and marked "Very urgent." The name of the author is
4 General Milovanovic.
5 Q. General, when the document appears on the screen I'm going to ask
6 you whether you recognise it, but I want to preface my remarks by saying
7 it is not -- my focus is not the actual substance of the document, but
8 more the addressees of the document. So if I could ask you to pay
9 attention to the addressees --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, is this a document which can be shown to
11 the public or not?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, it can. Sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It can.
14 MR. GROOME:
15 Q. And, General Milovanovic, once -- if you indicate us -- to us
16 when you've had a chance to look at this first page, I'll ask the
17 Court Officer to move to the second page so that you can see the entire
19 A. I can barely read it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we enlarge the text so that ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Much better now.
22 MR. GROOME:
23 Q. If you let us know when you need it to be scrolled down so that
24 you can review all of the document.
25 A. You have already gone to page 2, but I haven't finished page 1.
1 Very well. We can move on.
2 Q. General, have you finished reading or reviewing the document?
3 A. I have.
4 Q. Can I just deal with authenticity first. Do you have an
5 assessment as to whether or not this document is an authentic document?
6 A. Yes, it was written in my style.
7 Q. Now, as I said, my primary focus with this document are the
8 addressees. Now, this letter is sent to four addressees: The president
9 of the Republic of Serbia
10 of Republika Srpska, at that time Radovan Karadzic; the Chief of Staff of
11 the Yugoslav Army, at that time General Perisic; and finally the state
12 security department of the MUP of Serbia, at that time headed by
13 Jovica Stanisic.
14 Can I ask why was this document sent to President Milosevic?
15 A. To President Milosevic?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Do you have in mind President Milosevic or General Milosevic?
18 There's two.
19 Q. Well, perhaps you could tell us the -- the first addressee, is it
20 not the president of Serbia
21 A. Correct, to the president of the Republic of Serbia
22 Slobodan Milosevic. I was inquiring about the identity because there was
23 a general by the name of Slobodan Milosevic, however, in the Army of
24 Republika Srpska. This is an authentic document. I drafted it based on
25 the documents referred therein.
1 And what would be your question about it?
2 Q. So my question is: Why was the document sent to
3 President Milosevic?
4 A. This is why. Firstly, the area of Bihac, the so-called Cazina
5 Krajina was unilaterally by the Security Council of the UN in May of
6 1993, almost a year before this, was declared a safe area. In that area,
7 according to that Security Council Resolution, there should have been no
8 arms, no armed force. The 5th Corps had to be disarmed; however, instead
9 of disarming the 5th Corps, UNPROFOR informed us -- they did tell us that
10 the 5th Corps was disarmed and that its three brigades were disbanded.
11 That's what it -- their report stated. However, in October 1993,
12 a Territorial Defence was formed. It was formed somewhat before that but
13 made official in October 1993. That was the Territorial Defence of the
14 autonomous area of Western Bosnia. This was a new eighth armed force in
15 the territory of the former SFRY. In this report mention is made of the
16 arming of the 5th Corps, which is done with the assistance of UNPROFOR,
17 which was there to disarm them in the first place, as well as the arming
18 of the armed force of Fikret Abdic which developed through the channels
19 of the Army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina. All of these conducted
20 themselves in contravention to the Security Council Resolution.
21 General Mladic was probably not at the command post at that point
22 in time, and I, as his deputy, found it necessary to inform of this the
23 president of Serbia
24 agreement with Fikret Abdic, as well as to the president of Republika
25 Srpska, with whom I had arguments about that peace declaration, I think
1 that's what it was called, which he also signed with Fikret Abdic. And I
2 also sent it to the Chief of the General Staff of our neighbouring armed
3 force as well as to the MUP of Serbia, because the police were those who
4 were to -- supposed to prevent any illegal weapons transport.
5 Simply said, the embargo on weapons was violated, which was also
6 one of the provisions of that Security Council Resolution.
7 Q. General Milovanovic, were there types of documents generated by
8 the Army of Republika Srpska that were routinely sent to the state
9 security department of the MUP of Serbia?
10 A. Well, the number you can see in the heading, strictly
11 confidential 18/19. In any case, the figure of 18 indicates that this
12 was done by the security organ at the staff. Mladic's number was 01,
13 mine 02, Gvero 04, and the operational department had 03. Number 18 is
14 someone from the security, and I signed it probably as the most senior
15 officer at the command post. It is possible that I drafted it because
16 this would be my writing style. I don't see anything questionable about
17 this. Any security service and security intelligence organs of one
18 country inform all security organs of their neighbouring countries if
19 there are on -- on friendly terms. This is the usual intelligence type
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
22 65 ter 5067.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
24 Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P389, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P389 is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. GROOME: Could I ask the Court Officer to please display
3 65 ter 4505 on the screens before us.
4 Q. General, while we're waiting for this, 65 ter 4505 is a
5 photograph depicting four men standing next to each other. After it
6 appears on the screen before you, I'm going to ask you to identify each
7 person in the photograph, and would you please do this starting with the
8 person on the left-hand side of the photograph in a suit and work your
9 way to the person standing on the right-hand side of the photograph in
11 A. The first, in front of the flags, is Momcilo Krajisnik; next to
12 him, Jovica Stanisic. The person with the bundle of hair is
13 Radovan Karadzic. In uniform -- well, I can't make this person out so
14 well today, but I think yesterday it was clear to me that this was
15 Frenki, the person with the glasses.
16 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we zoom out so that we can see the
17 entire picture.
18 Q. And can I ask you, General, do you recognise the location, or by
19 some of the items that we see in the photograph, do you have some idea
20 about the possible location?
21 A. I don't recognise the setting, but the photograph must have been
22 taken somewhere in Serbia
23 the background. The first two ones to the right, immediately behind
24 Krajisnik, were the republican or state flags. The Federal Republic
1 FRY, the flag of Serbia
2 ministry, wherever they were. In Republika Srpska at the time, in such
3 locations, one would not come across three but two flags instead: The
4 flag of Republika Srpska and the flag of an institution or a ministry.
5 And the coat of arms between the heads of Radovan Karadzic and
6 Frenki does not resemble the coat of arms of Republika Srpska. We also
7 have a two-headed eagle, but it is white. Of course, I also take into
8 account that this was taken during the war, and I base that conclusion
9 because of Krajisnik's and Karadzic's hair look. That was his hairstyle
10 during the war.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender 65 ter 4505
12 into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P390, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P390 is admitted into evidence.
16 Mr. Groome, I'm looking at the clock. We have sessions of
17 75 minutes usually, which would be -- let me just see ...
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, we have now done for 75 minutes. In
20 totality we are a little bit under two and a half hours. If we would
21 have a break now, how much time would you still need after the break?
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it's actually impossible for me to
23 estimate because -- I'll explain what I have left, Your Honour. I want
24 to show the witness one more photograph and then several entries from a
25 diary of General Mladic that I believe are highly probative. But not
1 having had the opportunity to ask the witness what he knows about these
2 diary entries, it's impossible for me to say. I have, I believe, seven
3 entries. Some of them, I think, speak for themselves, and I will not ask
4 questions other than to ask his opinion about the handwriting.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you make a calculated guess?
6 MR. GROOME: I would think one hour, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we would not finish your
8 examination-in-chief anyhow because there are some charts still
9 outstanding, isn't it, that's ...
10 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, I was going to ask for 15 minutes
11 on Wednesday if -- after I fully explain my proposal.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 We'll have a break and we'll resume at 12.30. I'm also keeping
14 in mind, of course, the total of time Mr. Stanisic is usually attending
15 court. We'll resume at 12.30.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, please proceed.
19 MR. GROOME: [Microphone not activated]
20 Would the Court Officer please display 65 ter 4494 on the screens
21 before us.
22 Q. General, when this -- this is a photograph depicting seven men,
23 and it will take a minute to bring it to the screen. Six of the men are
24 sitting. After the picture appears on the screen before you, would you
25 please identify the six men sitting down, starting on the left-hand side
1 of the photograph and moving to the right-hand side of the photograph. I
2 will ask you about the man who is standing after you have told us whether
3 you recognise the first six men.
4 A. Could I please stand up because at this angle I can't see too
5 well. I can see it much better now.
6 The first to the left, with the beard, is Stojan Zupljanin. The
7 second resembles Frenki, although I'm not positive, since I have never
8 seen him in civilian clothes. Next is Momcilo Krajisnik, and
9 Jovica Stanisic, Radovan Karadzic. Milan Martic is the last person
10 seated. And behind him is Dragan Kijac, standing.
11 Q. General, can you tell us who Dragan Kijac.
12 A. Dragan Kijac for a while was the interior minister of the RS
13 towards the end of the war, I think, or -- and the first war immediately
14 following the war.
15 Q. And I think it's the first time during this trial that
16 Stojan Zupljanin's name has been mentioned. Can you tell us if you know
17 what position he held.
18 A. Stojan Zupljanin, I saw him only once during the war. He was the
19 chief of the state security sector in the Banja Luka region.
20 Q. Do you recognise the location where this photograph was taken?
21 A. No. I can only see the curtains and it doesn't tell me anything.
22 Q. Judging by the appearance of the men in the photograph, are you
23 able to estimate when the photograph was taken?
24 A. I don't know. Everyone seems very relaxed and in good spirit.
25 There are no worried faces to be seen. However, it was probably taken
1 during the war because Milan Martic is there. He was the then-president
2 of the Republic of Serbian
3 the war because we also have Kijac appearing. Karadzic's and Krajisnik's
4 hairstyle is unchanged. Zupljanin -- well, when I saw him in the middle
5 of the war, he had a beard.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender
7 65 ter 4494.
8 MR. JORDASH: May I inquire from the Prosecution as to where the
9 photograph came from, where they received it from. That might clarify
10 some of the issues that my learned friend was just asking about.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, where did you get it?
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would have to check this, but I
13 believe it was given confidentially to the chief of investigations of the
14 Tribunal. I'm not sure if the Chamber wishes more information, I'll
15 explore it over the weekend and have more information Wednesday. But the
16 information I know is very limited about where we received this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you -- I take it that Mr. Groome will
19 further inform us. Is it an objection to admission?
20 MR. JORDASH: No, it's not an objection. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections from the Simatovic Defence.
22 Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P391, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P391 is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, I would now ask that 65 ter 5053 be
1 brought up on the screen.
2 JUDGE ORIE: One question. You said it was given confidentially.
3 Does that require any further status as to whether it's a public document
4 or not?
5 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. My understanding is that the
6 person wished not to be identified, not that the photograph itself needed
7 to be confidential.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Now I understand, yes.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that 65 ter 5053.
11 Q. General, while that's being displayed and oriented on our
12 screens, can I ask you, were senior officers in the Army of Republika
13 Srpska required to keep diaries or journals of their professional
15 A. Such a thing was not ordered specifically, but this is the
16 training we had received in military schools, that we were supposed to
17 keep notes in notebooks such as the one that we can see the cover page
18 of. There was a bigger one used by the more senior officers who moved
19 about in the field, and there was a notebook half the size which could be
20 carried around in your pocket. Every officer would be issued with one.
21 There were no regulations dictating what notes should be kept, but one
22 was free to record everything done during the day, such as orders
23 received, issued, descriptions of events. Well, we did basically anyone
24 else would have in terms of keeping notes.
25 Q. And could -- would -- would an officer or could an officer be
1 required by his or her superior to produce the book for review?
2 A. Each officer had a notebook. They would be issued with one. And
3 when you opened it, on the cover page you would probably find the
4 following text: Notebook, working notebook, then the officer's first and
5 last name, a registry number, and when the notebook is used up it is
6 supposed to be returned to the office issuing it.
7 There were no specific orders in terms of production of such
8 notebooks and requirements for review. However, if I needed some
9 information, I would inquire of the relevant officer and they would
10 probably consult their notebooks to remind themselves. But there was no
11 particular obligation on the part of the subordinate to report on what he
12 had entered.
13 I usually wrote down the things I thought were important or
14 because I was afraid I would forget them.
15 Q. Now we are looking at on the screen now excerpt number 1 of
16 65 ter 5053.1. You've already described that we're looking at the cover
17 of these books.
18 MR. GROOME: So could I ask the Court Officer to please proceed
19 to excerpt 2 of 5053.1. And it is -- in the English translation it's
20 page 51 or in the original ERN -- the original the ERN ends in 0175.
21 I'm sorry, I misspoke. It's page 37 in the English translation.
22 So the ERN ending 0175 and the English translation page 37.
23 Q. General, when I'm -- when this is brought to the screen, I'm
24 going to ask you to take a look at the handwriting. Please advise us if
25 you need us to make it larger or to do -- change it or re-orient it. And
1 my question to you will be whether you recognise the handwriting.
2 General, while we're sorting out a technical problem, if I could
3 proceed and ask you a few other questions. You've mentioned
4 General Ratko Mladic a number of times in your testimony.
5 My question to you is: For what period of time have you known
6 General Mladic?
7 A. I have known General Mladic since April 1981. We met in the
8 Titov Veles garrison in Macedonia
9 associates until 1992, until we both came to the front. We spent the
10 whole war together. The last time we saw each other was on the
11 4th of November, 1998.
12 Q. And can you tell us, did you ever have occasion to see
13 General Mladic's handwriting?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you give us some approximation at the frequency with which
16 you would see his handwriting?
17 A. From the first time that we saw each other, then every day,
18 especially during the war.
19 Q. Did you ever have occasion to be present at a meeting and observe
20 General Mladic make notes in a diary during that meeting?
21 A. Yes, we all did that regularly.
22 Q. Do you know whether it was his practice to make notes as the
23 different participants in a meeting spoke or to wait until a meeting had
25 A. When he was not speaking, he was constantly writing down --
1 writing down what the others were saying.
2 Q. And did you ever have occasion to read a document immediately
3 after observing General Mladic write that document?
4 A. Yes, because General Mladic, especially during the war, when he
5 was looking at the mail and he would receive some document that would
6 perhaps be for me to deal with, then at the top he would write "chief" or
7 "general," or however he would address me, "do such and such a thing."
8 Usually -- I have to -- I'm sorry, I have to get up because the angle is
9 a little bit awkward. But at the top, for example, it says the day and
10 the date, also the same thing would be written on a typewritten document.
11 He would write: "Chief, do such and such a thing." That would be
12 written on the document itself.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at whether the angle of the
14 screen could be adjusted for the witness. It's usually rather easy to --
15 Madam Usher, is there any way that you could just -- if I change this
16 one, it just goes like that. That's not a -- okay.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. General, we're trying to adjust the monitor so you don't have to
19 stand up every time. Is that better?
20 A. It's fine. It's fine. Thank you. I don't want to create any
22 Q. It is important that you have a clear image of it, so please do
23 not hesitate to let us know if we need to do something else to make that
25 General, before I ask you about the substance of this particular
1 entry, do you recognise the handwriting?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I want to draw your attention to number 2, the paragraph
4 number 2, and to the particular point that says:
5 "... has permission from Stanisic to form the Red Berets at
6 Ozren ..."
7 Do you know or are you able to tell us who Stanisic refers to?
8 A. First of all, I don't see that here. I don't see what you've
9 just read out. I can see under 2: "Lazarevic, Slavko, a.k.a. Amerika."
10 Q. Could I ask you to please keep reading that and maybe -- I'm not
11 sure whether we're trimming off the right-hand portion of the document,
12 but we're both in the same paragraph. I was a few -- I was one line
13 ahead of you. So if you continue reading that.
14 A. "Lazarevic Slavko, a.k.a., Amerika, now called Duganovic or
15 Diganovic, lives in Belgrade
16 Red Berets at Ozren (Mico wrote an order for Bozovic [as interpreted] to
17 form a special unit at the public security centre in Doboj, and these
18 units would" -- I can't read this word. "For CSB in Doboj and these
19 units would" --
20 Q. If you're unable to read it, that's -- you are unable to read --
21 A. I'm not capable of reading it, but this Stanisic in the
22 parenthesis it says, "Mico wrote an order for Boskovic," I think it's
23 Mico Stanisic who for a while was the minister of internal affairs of
24 Republika Srpska. So this is not Jovica Stanisic, I think, but
25 Mico Stanisic.
1 Q. So it's your belief that the first Stanisic that's mentioned,
2 "has permission from Stanisic to form the Red Berets," is it your
3 evidence that you believe that that is Mico Stanisic that is being
4 referred to?
5 A. Only his name is mentioned. I don't think that Mladic would have
6 left that. We all would emphasise the name when talking about
7 Jovica Stanisic, we would all make sure that that was there because it
8 was a person from another state. I think it's Mico Stanisic because
9 Jovica Stanisic would not have been able to write an order for the unit
10 to be located in Doboj, in any case.
11 Q. General, in the -- the problem with the monitor, I -- we skipped
12 an answer to a question. My question to you when we first looked at this
13 was whether you recognised the handwriting of the person who wrote it.
14 Just so the record is clear, can I ask you that again?
15 A. I didn't answer because I didn't know whether it was okay for me
16 to mention the name. Can I mention the name of the person whose
17 handwriting this is?
18 Q. Yes, you can, if you recognise it.
19 A. General Ratko Mladic.
20 Q. I would now ask that we look at the last entry in this diary.
21 MR. GROOME: It's 65 ter 5053.1, excerpt number 3. This begins
22 on page 153 or 155 as the diary is internally numbered or with the
23 ERN ending 0277 and starts on page 139 in the English translation, and it
24 continues for two pages.
25 General, after you've had an opportunity to study the
1 handwriting, I would again ask you: Do you recognise the author of this
3 A. It looks like it was written on the knee, on the lap, but it is
4 still Ratko Mladic's handwriting.
5 Q. And the portion or the entry that I'm interested in is recounting
6 a meeting at Tara
7 that's at the bottom half of the diary entry? Can you see the entry for
8 a meeting at Tara
9 A. I see the heading: "Planning of actions." And then there is an
10 abbreviation, JSO, I don't know what that means. Present Panic; Ojdanic,
11 he was the commander of the Uzice Corps at the time; Loncar; I don't know
12 the following name, I can't read it; then Frenki; and two from -- Frenki
13 and two from the MUP, from the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but it
14 doesn't state who. In certain sectors the units -- actually, the units
15 are in certain regions or garrisons for Osmace, Jadar, Kragivode, go
16 with -- and there is an abbreviation there, PO, I don't know what that
17 means, and for Kragivode, and I can't read any further -- actually, there
18 is no more text.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
20 these three excerpts from 65 ter 5053. They have been extracted from the
21 entire diary and combined as a single exhibit now referred to as
22 65 ter 5053.1.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection? If not, Madam Registrar, the number
24 would be ...?
25 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P392, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 Mr. Groome, would you please perhaps submit the translation again
3 because it seems that the word processor has taken those who -- the name
4 Loncar appears as "Loncararticle," which sounds a bit odd and is not in
5 conformity with the original.
6 MR. GROOME: And it also seems, Your Honour, just so that the
7 record is clear, that General Milovanovic has referred to operation
8 planning with JSO and the translation seems to be Udar, U-d-a-r.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, whatever it is.
10 Mr. Petrovic.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes. I just wanted
12 to mention what my learned friend Mr. Groome mentioned. I would perhaps
13 like to have the text enlarged for the General so that he can see what it
14 says below "planning," because it doesn't actually read what he thinks it
15 reads. The letters are kind of smaller. So perhaps it would be easier
16 for the General just to look at an enlarged image of the writing.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. General, perhaps now that it is enlarged, can I ask you to take
19 the pen in front of you and circle where you read "JSO."
20 A. I didn't say "JSO." I said it is written in the Latinic script
21 "JSO," but I don't know what that abbreviation means. I mean, I'm
22 surprised. Mladic constantly writes in the Cyrillic alphabet, so I don't
23 know why he was using the Roman alphabet because the S is written in the
24 Roman alphabet. And this third letter, I don't even know whether that's
25 an O or not.
1 Q. General --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, let's -- I see that that's between
3 brackets which do not appear in any way, is not reflected in the
5 Is there anything, having closely looked now at the text, does it
6 in any way influence any of the answers you've given?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see anything new here that
10 I didn't see the first time I can decipher. Panic is the Chief of the
11 General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia
12 Then there is Ojdanic, Loncar, and then there were two generals. One
13 Loncar was the Chief of Staff of the Army of Serbian Krajina, and the
14 other one was the chief of the East Slavonia Corps. I think that's the
15 11th Corps. So I don't know which Loncar it is here. The third one I
16 don't know. Then there is this person Kac [phoen], Kac Stevo was the
17 commander of the air force base Ponikve, near Uzice. So I don't know
18 whether he was air force or infantry officer. The units were in certain
19 sectors - garrisons.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. The issue raised -- first of
21 all, the document has been admitted into evidence and, Mr. Petrovic,
22 you're invited to comment on -- give these kind of comments before it is
23 admitted. Apparently the JSO or Udar matter is -- unless you have any
24 reason to believe that the witness could clarify this apart from that he
25 can read what apparently everyone who would speak the language could
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, what I think would be important is just
3 to ask him to circle the portion that we've been talking about, the Latin
4 script and what he read, and then save that as a separate exhibit. I
5 think that would assist us if there is a question about the ultimate text
6 later, and that's what I would ask him to do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then could you give the -- Madam Usher, could
8 you give the pen to the witness?
9 MR. GROOME: Can the Usher please --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the Usher -- could you please give the -- one
11 second, Mr. Milovanovic.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. General, there is a special pen that if you use that, we can see
14 what you're writing, it shows up on our screens as well, and the Usher is
15 going to assist you with that now.
16 So if you would simply circle the text that you've referred to as
17 being the Latin script which you understood to read "JSO."
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. However, listening to you and I think the lawyer, I have
21 deciphered this word after the word "as part of." This is an abbreviated
22 word for Operation, "Oper." So it's: "Planning actions as part of the
23 Udar Operation." Your Honour, you helped me in deciphering this middle
24 letter. It's not an S, it's a D in the Cyrillic script, and then we have
25 an R. So this is some kind of operation called Udar. I personally know
1 that the operation was planned, but it was not actually carried out.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that this resolves the problem?
3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, but I would ask that we tender --
4 we save this screen image now that it's been created.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although it seems that it now is fully
6 reflected by the translation. But if you insist.
7 Madam Registrar, a number for this marked version of the document
8 would be ...?
9 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P393, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P393 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. General, I want to work with a different diary at this time.
14 MR. GROOME: And I would ask the Court Officer to bring to the
15 screen 65 ter 5016.1. It is a series of diary entries extracted from
16 65 ter 5016.
17 Q. Now, we are going to see the first page and there is insufficient
18 amount of text in this page to ask you about the handwriting. I simply
19 want to note for the Court that the first page of this book bears the
20 name Kertes and two six-digit numbers.
21 And if I could ask your assistance, General, during the conflict
22 how many digits were in a telephone number?
23 A. First of all, in the Main Staff we had land-line communications
24 with the Belgrade
25 We never wrote in the Belgrade
1 six-digit telephone numbers. I think after the war some seven-digit
2 telephone numbers were introduced, but at the time there were only
3 six-digit telephone numbers. So these numbers could have been both in
6 Q. So given that there is nothing preceding the six digits, does
7 that lead you to a conclusion as to whether this is a Belgrade
9 A. I think that this would be a Belgrade number, and this name
10 Kertes, we know or it's known who this person by the name of Kertes was.
11 I think he was the director of the customs administration of Serbia
12 Q. Can you tell us his full name?
13 A. No, just the last name.
14 MR. GROOME: I would ask that we proceed to 65 ter 5016.1 excerpt
15 number 2.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could we ask what a T or a K would stand
17 for in relation to a telephone number, if it is a telephone number.
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
19 Q. General Milovanovic, are you able to assist us with what the T or
20 the K means?
21 A. The T, I don't know what that stands for. The K would refer to
22 "kuca," home number. People would always take two numbers. One would be
23 the work number and the other one -- I don't know how that would be
24 indicated. And K would for stand for "kuca," home, so if he wasn't at
25 work they would look at him at home, and vice versa.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Can we now proceed to excerpt 2. It is found in the
3 original at page ending 0375, and in the English translation at page 42.
4 Q. General, in the interests of time, I'm simply going to ask you to
5 study the document until you can make a reliable identification of the
6 handwriting and simply tell us if you recognise the handwriting.
7 A. Could we zoom in a little bit, please, on the bottom part of the
8 page. I don't see it very well.
9 Q. And again, the diary entry is rather explicit, so it -- there may
10 not be a need for you to comment on the substance, but are you able to
11 identify the handwriting?
12 A. This is Mladic's handwriting, and what he is writing here is
13 intended for General Djukic and his assistant for logistics. He is
14 informing him here what and how much assistance is being given to him and
15 by whom. They were referring to some 40 million bullets from the
16 Partizan factory. They're referring to some money from the government,
17 from this and that. So it's some sort of a donation here. There is a
18 Trbic, some oil man probably, who gave some 200 tonnes of oil to
19 Republika Srpska, to the army.
20 MR. GROOME: Now if I could ask that we move to excerpt number 3
21 of 65 ter 5016.1. It's a two-page entry that begins in the original on
22 page ending 0375 and page 72 of the English translation.
23 Q. General, while we are orienting that on the screen before you,
24 could you tell us what the word "Pretis" stands for, p-r-e-t-i-s.
25 A. Pretis is our ammunitions factory in Sarajevo. It was in Vogosca
1 until the end of the war. After the Dayton Accords it was evacuated.
2 Q. Now, do you have or can you make an assessment as to whether you
3 recognise the handwriting in this entry?
4 A. The bottom part, this bottom part where it says "meeting with
5 General Perisic and Jovica Stanisic, present" -- once again Perisic,
6 Stanisic, Gvero, and myself. Again, this is Mladic's handwriting. At
7 the top this resembles Mladic's "rukopis" but it seems to be written at
8 an angle somewhat so I couldn't really swear that it was Mladic's
9 handwriting. But probably it is because it is on the same page, same
10 kind of paper.
11 Q. General, so that we're certain, the portion of the diary entry
12 that is below the date of 6 April 1995 is the portion of this page that
13 you are certain is the handwriting of General Mladic?
14 A. I'm sure about the top part also. Only the pen is different,
15 that's why I was confused. He used black ink at the top and blue ink at
16 the bottom. And I cannot read at the top to whom the -- this was sent.
17 Or maybe he was just writing a reminder for himself to emphasise -- what
18 to emphasise, "istaci," at that meeting.
19 Q. Could I ask that we go to the second page of this excerpt, and
20 the portion of this that I would draw your attention to is there is an
21 asterisk or star with a double underline. Are you able to read the very
22 top line of this page?
23 A. "Jovica Stanisic" is underlined and it's -- has an asterisk next.
24 Q. Can I ask you to read the diary, and you can read it to yourself.
25 We have a translation. But the question that I'm interested in asking
1 you is: Given what you know of General Mladic and working with him,
2 would you -- is the text that we see below "J. Stanisic" that's double
3 underlined, is that -- do you believe that to be a recording of what
4 J. Stanisic said at this occasion?
5 A. I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you asking me whether what
6 Mladic noted down was uttered by Jovica Stanisic or was it something
7 Mladic told Stanisic?
8 Q. I'm asking you the first version of what you've said. Is what's
9 underneath Stanisic's name what Stanisic said? If you're able to tell.
10 A. I can't say. See, the asterisk and the double line, this would
11 indicate that Mladic wanted to pay particular attention to that part of
12 the text. However, the asterisk could indicate that this was something
13 Mladic had drafted in order to share with Stanisic. But it could also be
14 the other way around, and then Mladic underlined it to keep it in mind
15 when later on leafing through the notebook. In any case, for some reason
16 he believed this part of the text to be important.
17 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we go to the very last line in this
19 Q. And, General, I would ask you to read this line out loud to all
20 of us.
21 A. "To have more freedom to act" and then the last word begins with
22 t-r-a but I can't make out the rest. I can circle it if you wish.
23 Q. I don't believe that's necessary at the moment, but my question
24 to you is: Are you able to assist us in what this might be referring to
25 or place it in the context of what was happening around the 6th of April,
1 1995, when this entry was made?
2 A. Please repeat your question. I was focusing on something else.
3 I was reading.
4 Q. My question is: Can you help us understand what is intended by
5 that last line or place it in the context of what was occurring in the
6 6th of April, 1995, the day this entry was made?
7 A. There is something else I just realised. Jovica Stanisic said
8 this to Mladic and Mladic noted it down because in the fifth line from
9 the top it says: "I sent 150 men from Slavonia as part of Pauk."
10 I don't know what Pauk refers to. I don't think it's
11 Operation Spider that we discussed today because it's not at the same
12 time, but Mladic could not have told Stanisic that he had sent 150 men
13 from Slavonia
14 Q. Does -- so am I correct in that your interpretation is that where
15 you said "to have more freedom to act," that you believe that this is
16 Mladic recording the statement of Mr. Stanisic; is that what you're
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that there's a confusion, and I'd like to
19 clarify that.
20 Mr. Milovanovic, you're asked a question and then you said:
21 "There is something else I just realised. Jovica Stanisic said
22 this to Mladic ..."
23 Now, did I understand you well that where you had been reading
24 the content of it, that it suddenly came to your mind that what was
25 recorded, not on the last line but on the lines above, that this must
1 have been what Mr. Stanisic would have said to General Mladic rather than
2 the other way around? Or was it an answer specifically in relation to
3 the last line of this page?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not specifically in relation to
5 the last line. At the beginning I said that I was uncertain whether it
6 was Mladic who had noted down what he was going to tell Stanisic or
7 whether he wrote down what Stanisic told him. And then I realised that
8 because of the mention of 150 men from Slavonia, it could've been [as
9 interpreted] Mladic who sent them. And then I realised that Stanisic
10 said that to Mladic and Mladic wrote it down.
11 As for the "more freedom to act" line, I'm not sure Mladic would
12 suddenly revert to the capitals, but it could have something to do with
13 less control of the convoys.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, that's how I understood the answer, to
15 be a further reflection on a question you had asked earlier and not
16 specifically an answer to the last line; whereas you, in your next
17 question, interpreted the words of the witness as being an answer to your
18 last question, which I gained -- I had the impression was not and I think
19 that's now -- so if we want to pay attention to the last line you should
20 then re-start that portion of your examination.
21 MR. GROOME: Thank you for your assistance in clarifying that.
22 Q. Can I ask you, now that you had a chance to think for a few
23 minutes about this entry, can you tell us, do you have a reliable
24 interpretation of that last line, given that it appears to be in capital
25 letters and the text of that line?
1 A. I've already offered my interpretation, to have more freedom to
2 act so that there would be less control and more mutual trust. If there
3 is a vehicle carrying assistance from Serbia via Republika Srpska to the
4 Republic of Serbian Krajina, still it is stopped at every check-point,
5 searched, registered, and so on. Mladic simply wanted a more liberal
6 regime so as not to stall things. He simply wanted us to trust each
7 other, to trust the one sending the goods as well as the one receiving
9 Q. From that answer do I take that you don't see that last sentence
10 as a record of what Jovica Stanisic said, but as Mladic recording his own
11 thoughts on restrictions that may have been in effect?
12 A. Precisely.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could I ask one additional question.
14 Earlier you said that you had difficulties in deciphering the
15 last word of that line. Were you able to decipher that last word?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not able. I'm still
17 pondering it. It could be "transparent" or "transport," something of
18 that sort. I'm unable to decipher it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Groome, this requires at least that further attention will be
21 paid to the understanding of this last word, which apparently for those
22 who translated it were able to read, but there seems to be perhaps a
23 little problem there.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, given that the witness before us is
25 probably best equipped to interpret the handwriting and he is unable, I
1 will ask that that be marked illegible in the translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's first try to find out, first of all,
3 what the persons who appear to be able to read it, what they think the
4 word is. And if then it's on loose grounds that it was translated as it
5 has been translated, then of course it should be declared illegible. But
6 if it's not on loose grounds, then -- but what I wanted -- I want it to
7 be verified.
8 MR. GROOME: I will do that, Your Honour.
9 If we could proceed to the next excerpt, it's 5016.1, excerpt 4.
10 This is a two-page entry beginning in the original on ERN ending 0457 and
11 in the English on 124.
12 Q. Again, in the interests of time, could I ask you to simply study
13 it until you are able to tell us whether you recognise the handwriting,
14 and we will rely on the plain text of the diary.
15 A. The handwriting is that of General Mladic.
16 Q. Thank you. Could we now please move to excerpt number 5 -- I'm
17 sorry, General, you have your -- you want to say something.
18 A. As you were removing the previous page, perhaps because of the
19 angle or the light, concerning the last line, I think I now know what it
20 means. So to have more freedom to act and then, "- seek a position."
21 Mladic wanted to have a position of probably a state official. So he was
22 trying to remind himself that he was supposed to ask for a position on
24 Q. Can you please clarify what you're saying now. He was supposed
25 to ask who for a position?
1 A. He wrote it down to use it as an aide-memoire, to ask for a
2 position of civilian authorities. He was to propose to those whom he was
3 seeking a position from, that they should be allowed to act more freely.
4 He probably noted it down so as not to forget.
5 I'm positive that the last two words is "seek a position" or "ask
6 for a position." Whether Jovica asked him to have more freedom to act
7 and then Mladic was supposed to ask for a position or something else,
8 that is irrelevant. In any case, it is suggested that more room be
9 provided to act and that a position should be sought. As -- and also
10 most of the text is written in the second-person plural, which would be
11 out of respect. So I conclude it was Jovica Stanisic who was asking him
12 to get a position on that.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. GROOME: If we could now move to excerpt number 5. Again,
15 this is -- ends in ERN 473 and the English translation is on page 140.
16 Q. Again, in the interests of time I'll rely on the plain text, but
17 do you recognise this handwriting as well?
18 A. Mladic's handwriting.
19 Q. General, I believe there may have been a mistake in the
20 transcript. I just want to go back to page 78. It has to do with when
21 you were referring to the 150 men from Slavonia. Were you saying that
22 Mladic could not send 150 men from Slavonia or could send 150 men from
24 A. He could not. We had no men there. It was in the territory of
25 Republika Srpska Krajina.
1 MR. GROOME: Now, if we could now move to excerpt number 6. This
2 is the second-to-last excerpt. It ends in the original 0521, and this is
3 a two-page entry.
4 Q. General, while it's being oriented --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Have you asked any questions about the previous one?
8 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. In the interests of time I was
9 going to rely on the plain text of it unless the Chamber -- I'm just
10 conscious of the time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now I better understand why you move to the
12 next excerpt. Please proceed.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. My first question again will be: Do you recognise the
16 A. Yes, this is Mladic's handwriting.
17 Q. Now, can I ask you to focus on the entry recording what is
18 referred to as "talk with President Karadzic" in Pale on the
19 23rd of June 1995. Do you see that entry?
20 A. No, sorry. No? A discussion with President Milosevic and
21 General Perisic.
22 MR. GROOME: I'm unable to see the ERN number but it should end
23 with 0521. There seems to be some error in what's up on the screen.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, there's also a number on
25 the back of this page. I think it's 474.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. General, while we're --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, I further notice that there seems to
4 appear a time in the original at the right top which seems not to be
5 there in the English version.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe we have the wrong original,
7 so I'm going to see if we can sort that. The ERN number is different
8 than the one I'm calling out.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then at least for the one we had on our
10 screen there seems to be a translation issue as well. But I'm not going
11 to insist on that. Let's try to get -- perhaps for those who will ever
12 use this page in the future.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. General, while we're waiting to see if we can get up the correct
15 entry on the screen, can you tell us where Trnovo is?
16 A. Are you asking me?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Trnovo is a small town between Sarajevo and Kalinovik, closer to
21 Q. And now that we have the correct page, can I ask you: Do you
22 recognise the handwriting?
23 A. Yes, it is General Mladic's.
24 MR. GROOME: Could we scroll down to the bottom.
25 Q. And I draw your attention to the "talk with President Karadzic"
1 in Pale on the 23rd of June, 1995. Let us know when you've read that and
2 I'll ask the Usher to advance to the next page.
3 A. "Conversation with President Karadzic, those in attendance, Toso
4 Tolimir, Skrbic -- Petar Skrbic, and I," meaning General Mladic.
5 "Officer promotions agreed upon."
6 I can comment. It was just before the 28th of June, which was
7 the patron saint's day of the Army of the VRS when officer promotions
8 took place, and he discussed this with the supreme commander.
9 Q. General, could I show you the remainder of the entry before I ask
10 for your comment on it.
11 MR. GROOME: And I ask that we advance to the next page.
12 Q. And the portion of the -- this diary entry that the Prosecution
13 is most interested in is the last line. Could I ask you to read that
15 MR. GROOME: It's at the top of the page of the -- could we
16 scroll up, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the rank of general, a promotion
18 was decided upon for Sladoje, it was Colonel Cedo Sladoje. Then
19 Dusan Kukobad [phoen], who was the Chief of Staff of the
20 2nd Krajina Corps. Then Miladin Prstojevic, Chief of Staff of the
21 Herzegovina Corps for later. Others will be promoted, and then it
22 doesn't say when. We have to -- we have to make or create something at
23 Trnovo, although I can't make out what.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. GROOME: Could we now move to the last entry I'll ask --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is this the last entry you want to deal with?
3 MR. GROOME: One more entry, Your Honour, and then a one-minute
4 video-clip, Your Honour, and that's it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because we -- let me just check with the
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We have a bit of an unusual schedule. We'll -- if
9 you'd finish, then we could skip the afternoon session. I'm looking at
10 interpretation, transcription, and technicians, whether we could -- how
11 much time would it take?
12 MR. GROOME: It's about ten questions, Your Honour. Please don't
13 count. I'd have to count if you're going to hold me to ten, but I'm
14 really on the last page of my examination.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we continue and so to save that we have to
16 return this afternoon because I would need three minutes for reading a
17 decision as well which is so urgent that we can't leave that until next
19 Then under those circumstances. I'm also looking at you,
20 Mr. Stanisic, it's a bit longer that we usually do. Is that -- would
21 that -- I see that it apparently causes no such problem that we would
22 have to refrain from doing it.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. General, I'd now ask you to look at 65 ter 5016.1, excerpt 7. It
1 begins in the original with an ERN that ends in 536. And the entry that
2 I want to draw your attention to is a -- records a meeting in Belgrade
3 the 30th of June, 1995. And are you able to see that entry?
4 A. Yes, I can see it.
5 Q. Can you identify for us who the participants are?
6 A. I wasn't there. I was in Drvar at the time, but let me just see
7 if Mladic wrote down who was present. No, there are no notes about those
8 present, perhaps at the bottom, but if he didn't note it down at the
9 beginning he would hardly do it at the end.
10 Q. I want to draw your attention to the third page of this entry
11 where we see at the top where -- I'm sorry, it's the second page.
12 There's an entry for JS. When you've had an opportunity to see that, my
13 question would be: After reading the entry, are you able to tell us who
14 JS is?
15 A. Can you please tell me -- JS, yes, I can see this is on the fifth
16 line from the bottom.
17 "JS: Which forces can be engaged by General Mrksic."
18 I don't know, perhaps JS, these are somebody's initials. This is
19 something that this JS said because then afterwards it -- it's written
20 "JS" and a colon and what JS said is stated: "Which forces can
21 General Mrksic engage."
22 At the time General Mrksic was the commander of the Serbian army
23 of the Krajina. So the question is being asked if the Army of the
24 Serbian Krajina can be used for something.
25 Q. Can I draw your attention to page 4 of this entry, and we see the
1 initials JS again and there's a text immediately after JS. I'd ask you
2 to read that aloud.
3 A. I don't see that fourth page. I can still see which forces can
4 General Mrksic engage -- ah, I can see a little bit more now. Are you
5 asking me to look at this JS again?
6 Q. If you could read aloud just the first sentence of what is
7 recorded as JS or after JS.
8 A. "My men should be taken into account in the utmost way when an
9 operation is being planned. I have no confidence in Mile Novakovic, at
10 least as far as competency or professionalism is concerned. The -- they
11 have not given any assistance to the corps command for at least
12 six months, and I have to ask that they be taken into account. My men
13 were told the first day that they were paramilitaries. Pecanac should be
14 informed" -- no, no, no, "Pecanac should be separated with 400 men, rest
15 for seven days, and assign to General Mrksic."
16 Q. Now, the last entry that I want you to read is -- or the last
17 portion of this entry is on the last page, page 5, and there there are
18 two passages after JS. Could I ask you to read both of what appears
19 after the initials JS aloud?
20 A. Yes, may I?
21 Q. Yes, please.
22 A. There are two JS entries here. I'm reading the first one.
23 "I can find 120 perfect men who would go there in seven days.
24 These would be people from the eastern sector. That would be the
1 And then again JS, and there was an M there that was crossed out
2 with just the JS remaining.
3 "They should not be engaged (we gave 80 from Erdut, we gave
4 80 from Djeletovci."
5 Q. Now, are you able to tell from the context what does the 80 refer
6 to? Are we talking about 80 men? 80 cars? 80 weapons? Are you able to
7 tell from the context what the 80, 80 from Erdut, 80 from Djeletovci?
8 A. I think that this refers to men because the same JS says above
9 that 120 perfect men were taken from the eastern sector and then they
10 should not be engaged, because of this engaged. We gave 80 from Erdut,
11 we gave 80 from Djeletovci. So he already has 160 men somewhere, so
12 these 120 should not then be engaged for some task that was being
14 Q. Now, based on your experience and knowledge of the conflict, are
15 you able to assist in what 80 men from Erdut might be referring to?
16 A. This is probably an operation or a preparation for an operation
17 because I can see, when we were reading previous entries by JS, somebody
18 was complaining that the corps commander of the Serbian army of the
19 Krajina was not helping, and General Mile Novakovic was being charged
20 with not working very well. So there was some kind of military operation
21 that these men needed to be engaged in. Perhaps these were some
22 120 perfect men, were they perhaps specially trained soldiers or special
23 formations. In any case, these seem to be some kind of special men.
24 Q. And with respect to 80 from Djeletovci, would your answer be the
25 same or do you -- based on your experience and knowledge of the conflict,
1 are you able to be precise or more precise about what 80 men from
2 Djeletovci might be referring to?
3 A. I don't know. We would need to find what was in Djeletovci, was
4 it the police or the army that was stationed there. I don't know what
5 was stationed there. This is not in the territory of Bosnia
7 that through the media, but I don't know anything about Djeletovci. I
8 hadn't heard anything about that until now.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would
10 tender 65 ter Exhibit 5016.1. It is a set of seven excerpts from the
11 larger diary of 5016.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
13 Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P394, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P394 is admitted into evidence.
16 Yes, please proceed.
17 MR. GROOME:
18 Q. And finally, General, I'm going to ask you to look at
19 approximately one minute of videotape. It is 65 ter 1167.1. The time
20 code in this document is 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 29 seconds, to 1 hour,
21 40 minutes, and 16 seconds. I would ask you to pay particular attention
22 to the vehicle we see and the uniforms that we see.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. General, having looked at the video, are you able to tell us
1 whether the vehicle we see is a vehicle of the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 A. It's a military TAM 110 vehicle. I didn't see the licence plates
3 or the number, so I cannot really say whether it is a vehicle of the
4 Army of Republika Srpska or not.
5 Q. Are you able to tell us whether the armed men we see in the video
6 are wearing uniforms that identify them as soldiers in the Army of
7 Republika Srpska?
8 A. They're not soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska because the
9 Army of Republika Srpska did not -- or their soldiers did not wear red
11 Q. Are you able to identify the organisation that these men are
12 associated with by looking at the uniforms they are wearing?
13 A. No, I really couldn't say because different uniforms were worn.
14 All I know is that the Army of Republika Srpska did not have any red
15 berets. As for who wore red berets and whom I met in the Republic of the
16 Serbian Krajina when I went there, that is something I really couldn't
17 say who these people are because I don't have any other symbols other
18 than the Serbian tricolour on the beret. But the Serbian tricolour was
19 worn by the Army of Republika Srpska, by the Army of Yugoslavia, and, I
20 don't know, perhaps the special police also wore that, from Yugoslavia
21 Q. General, if I may play you just a short clip from earlier on in
22 the video where there is a clearer picture of the uniform, perhaps that
23 will assist you.
24 MR. GROOME: Could I ask Mr. Laugel to play from 2 minutes,
25 11 seconds, to 2 minutes, 51 seconds.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you stop at the point where you want to have
2 a still.
3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. GROOME:
6 Q. There's no sound in this video, General, so if you do want to
7 make a comment as we view it or want us to freeze on any particular
8 section, please just indicate that.
9 A. Stop. I can see the flag of a unit which was called the
10 Skorpions, and I can recognise it by the emblem of the scorpion below the
11 letters where it says "Skorpions." It's a little bit illegible, but this
12 is the Skorpions unit.
13 Q. Now, there's no need to play the --
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, do you want me to play the remainder
15 of the video before I tender --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No --
17 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I've seen what I've seen. I'm usually not
19 happy to ask to be -- to admit into evidence any portion which we have
20 not seen.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I misspoke, I'm not seeking to tender
22 this exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. GROOME: I would ask that it be marked for identification.
25 The cameraman will be testifying later in the trial.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Could you assign a number to it, Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P395, marked for
4 identification, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And it keeps that status for the time being.
6 Please proceed.
7 Well, Mr. Groome, I'm looking at the clock. And we're now
8 certainly ten minutes beyond what we -- and I need some time as well.
9 Could you finish --
10 MR. GROOME: One more question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One more question, yes.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. General, we see in the picture here that these men are wearing
14 black uniforms and red berets. Based on your experience and knowledge of
15 the conflict, was there any other unit that you observed wearing black
16 uniforms and red berets?
17 A. There were no black uniforms and red berets in the territory of
18 the Army of Republika Srpska. I'm not aware that any unit of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska or of the police of Republika Srpska ever wore black
21 Q. Any paramilitary unit?
22 A. As for paramilitary units, they disappeared in 1992 for the most
23 part. The only ones that remained were two or three groups around
25 Manda's Chetniks. They didn't interfere or bother the army, but they
1 were also not under the jurisdiction of the army, they were under the
2 jurisdiction of the MUP.
3 Q. General, I'd only be interested if there was a paramilitary group
4 that you had seen wearing black uniforms and red berets. Did you ever
5 see a paramilitary unit wearing a black uniform and a red beret in
7 A. No, no, I didn't.
8 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
10 Before I read a decision which has to be done in private session,
11 Mr. Groome, I do understand that you would need another 15 minutes on
12 Wednesday. Would that exclusively deal with the chart similar to the
13 ones we have seen today?
14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, only that. But it would depend on
15 the Court's accepting my proposal and Defence counsel accepting my
16 proposal. If I could make that -- I could set that proposal out in a
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could do that.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, General Milovanovic worked all day
20 yesterday reviewing documents, but was unable to get through all of the
21 documents. There are two more binders; I brought them here to court.
22 What I propose is that I give these to the Court Officer, that Defence
23 counsel check these binders to be satisfied that there's nothing in it
24 other than the documents and the forms for General Milovanovic to fill
25 out. General Milovanovic has agreed to review them over the weekend and
1 that he return them through VWS to the Court Officer, who would then
2 distribute the form that he filled out. And then on Wednesday I would
3 have that translated and that would be my examination, just those
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and he would then do that without being
6 assisted by anyone or not in the presence of anyone?
7 MR. GROOME: Assisted by no one.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, by no one.
9 Mr. Jordash.
10 MR. JORDASH: I perfectly agree with that, but I don't think we
11 need to check -- I certainly don't need to check the file.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you have an opportunity. If you don't
13 need to do it, that's fine, I take it.
14 Mr. Petrovic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're fine as far as
16 that's concerned. We're all right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Milovanovic, Mr. Groome has quite some homework for you, from
19 what I understand. You will be provided with the binder where you find a
20 similar series of documents and a chart where you're invited to fill that
21 in. I do understand that you have declared yourself available to do
22 that. Is that correctly understood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. This is what I
24 agreed on with the Prosecutor yesterday.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when we will adjourn in one or two minutes from
1 now, I will instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or
2 communicate with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony
3 you've given already or whether that is testimony still to be given next
4 week. Now, I would similarly want to instruct you that if you do this
5 job, you should do it just on your own, without consulting anyone,
6 without allowing anyone to follow what you are doing. So it will be a
7 lonely job for you to do, but these are my instructions, which, of
8 course, are based on your willingness to assist the Court. And it's
9 highly appreciated that you want to do it because it saves us time in
10 court to go through all these documents and then to learn exactly what
11 we'll learn if we look at your charts as you have -- as you have given
12 your information in those columns.
13 Therefore, you are excused for now. We would like to see you
14 back on Wednesday, next week Wednesday, quarter past 2.00 in the
15 afternoon in this same courtroom, and I already gave you my instructions
16 that you should not speak or communicate with anyone about your
18 Since there seems to be no wish to inspect the materials, they
19 can be given to the witness. Is it two binders or one binder?
20 MR. GROOME: It's two binders.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Two binders.
22 MR. GROOME: One with 14 documents, one with 40 documents.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Then, Mr. Milovanovic, you may follow the Usher, who will then
25 hand out to you the two binders.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I have a brief decision to be delivered which cannot
4 wait until next week, but we have to turn into private session for that
6 [Private session]
11 Page 4463 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 I thoroughly thank all those who have assisted us for going again
15 beyond the time, and so that the public also knows I'm considering how
16 to -- I could pay my debts towards you.
17 We adjourn. The Defence is invited, if they have any further
18 idea, now having heard the examination-in-chief and knowing what will
19 follow on Wednesday, to inform the Chamber about any assessment, any
20 estimate, on the time they would need for cross-examination. And we
21 adjourn until Wednesday, the 28th of April, quarter past 2.00, in this
22 same courtroom, II.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.08 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of
25 April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.