1 Wednesday, 28 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case IT-03-69-T, Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and
10 Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 While we're waiting for the witness to be brought in, I put on
13 the record that the interviews of the present witness with the OTP have
14 been -- the results of that have been made available to the Defence, and
15 there has been some consultation yesterday, because the Prosecution would
16 like to look at it as well, and after having consulted with the Defence,
17 you have received the relevant interview results as well, Mr. --
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, I have, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We do understand now that time for
20 cross-examination -- time --
21 MR. JORDASH: I beg your pardon, Your Honour. Our client cannot
22 hear anything at the moment.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, then we have to take care of that.
24 Mr. Stanisic, can you now hear me in a language you understand?
25 I see you're nodding yes.
1 I dealt with some practical problems over the weekend, that is
2 the results of the interview being made available to the Defence and to
3 the Prosecution as well, that the time estimate for cross-examination
4 would be three to four hours.
5 [The witness took the stand]
6 WITNESS: MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Milovanovic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that the solemn
11 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony is still
12 binding, that is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
13 nothing but the truth.
14 I was informed that you have been so kind to do the homework over
15 the weekend and the first days after the weekend. Thank you for that.
16 Mr. Groome asked for another 15 minutes for examination-in-chief.
17 Mr. Groome.
18 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that the
21 Court Officer please bring to our screens document 5294.
22 Examination by Mr. Groome: [Continued]
23 Q. General, while we are waiting for that document to be brought to
24 our screens, can I ask you were you provided a binder containing
25 14 documents, as well as a chart to record your assessment with respect
1 to the authenticity of these documents over the last few days?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is the document that we can now see on our screens, is that the
4 document in which you recorded your assessment with respect -- your
5 assessment of the authenticity of these documents?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. GROOME: Can I ask that we go to the second page or the last
9 Q. And, General, did you sign and date this document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And is that your signature at the bottom of this chart?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would ask
14 the Court Officer to please bring to our screens document number 5295.
15 Q. And while that is being done, General, were you also provided a
16 binder of 40 documents to review, as well as a document to record your
17 assessment of the authenticity of these documents, again over the last
18 few days?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is the document that we now see on our screens an image of the
21 document in which you recorded your comments with respect to the set of
22 40 documents?
23 A. Yes, and I can see a mistake under 8. I did not put my initials
24 there, although I should have because the document is authentic.
25 Q. So -- just so the record is clear, from what we can see, you did
1 not put your initials in either column 5 or column 6. Where should your
2 initials appear, which column, column 5 or column 6?
3 A. Yes, that's true. In column 5.
4 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we go to the last page of this
6 Q. And while that is being done, did you also sign and date at the
7 end of the chart where you recorded your opinions as to these
8 40 documents?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. GROOME: And if I could ask that we move out.
11 Q. And is that your signature that we can see at the bottom of the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, General, just a few minutes ago, the Court Officer brought
15 to my attention and to the attention of the Defence that there also in
16 the binder that you returned appeared to be a handwritten letter in your
17 handwriting. Is that correct, that you also provided a handwritten
18 letter in the binder when you returned it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And my cursory -- the cursory explanation that has been provided
21 to me is that it includes some other comments that you have made with
22 respect to the documents that you were shown, and in an effort to be
23 complete, you also made notes on this separate piece of paper; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, the Prosecution has an application
2 with respect to these documents, but making such an application is likely
3 to result in a detailed discussion of how they should be treated. In the
4 interest of proceeding with the cross-examination and expediting
5 General Milovanovic's evidence before the Chamber, the Prosecution simply
6 asks at this time that the two documents be marked for identification and
7 the detailed discussion of how they should be treated in this trial be
8 deferred to a time later this week.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is this about the comments and the notes or is it
10 about the lists, the charts, that have been completed by Mr. Milovanovic?
11 MR. GROOME: My application relates to the two charts, document
12 number 5294 and 5295.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. GROOME: With respect to the --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you seek them to be marked for
17 Madam Registrar, the first chart dealing with 14 documents and
18 the again --
19 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 5294 becomes Exhibit P396, marked for
20 identification. And 65 ter 5295 becomes Exhibit P397, marked for
21 identification, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And both documents keep that status. They still are
23 marked for identification.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. GROOME: Not knowing what is in the handwritten letter, I'm
2 unable to express a view as to what I think should ultimately happen to
3 the document, but perhaps it would be prudent to -- also at this time, to
4 mark that for identification. And I'd ask that it be kept -- the
5 original be kept in the custody of the Court Officer until the parties
6 can discern what, if any, relevance it may have to this trial.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has a copy already been given to the Defence?
8 MR. GROOME: I believe copies have been given by the
9 Court Officer to -- to all of us.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You received that, I see, that -- the Defence is
11 nodding yes.
12 Madam Registrar, a number -- yes, Mr. --
13 MR. JORDASH: Sorry. May I just, quickly, take some instructions
14 from Mr. Stanisic? There's something about the B/C/S document which is
15 of concern.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The B/C/S document being the handwritten edition
17 to --
18 MR. JORDASH: Handwritten edition.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
21 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
22 MR. JORDASH: With Your Honour's leave, would it be possible to
23 have a translation, the document read to us so that we can -- we English
24 speakers can understand precisely what the handwritten note says at this
1 JUDGE ORIE: I've got no idea how long it is.
2 MR. GROOME: May I make a suggestion, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. GROOME: It's about a page and a half. Perhaps during the
5 first break I'll arrange to have someone here who can give a rough
6 translation to all of us so that we can proceed with the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then wait. Yes. The Chamber has received a
8 hard copy. We're not seeking to understand it until you have had an
9 opportunity. I see that it is a document which is handwritten, one and a
10 half page long, and is -- the second page is dated the
11 25th of April, 2010, and from what I understand written here in
12 The Hague
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milovanovic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm sorry for mispronouncing your name. Then
15 what to do with this document we'll wait for the parties to further
16 address the Court after the first break.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution has no
18 further questions of General Milovanovic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we take it that --
20 Mr. Milovanovic, when you filled in those charts, you did it to
21 the best of your abilities and in full accordance with what you think is
22 the truth in this respect. That's, of course, a bit sensitive if you're
23 talking about authenticity of documents, but you did it to the best of
24 your abilities and -- is that well understood?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is well understood, but I
1 believe that I understood the task well, because the problem here is the
2 problem of authenticity. And what is authenticity? In Serbian,
3 "authentic" means the same, and since I was provided with the copies of
4 the documents, I was supposed to use my experience and confirm that the
5 copies are the same as their originals, and I did it in all 53 cases. In
6 one case I could not establish that, that was in the penultimate
7 document, and I put my initials under 6, in column 6, standing for
8 non-authentic. I could not read the document, and I did not have the ERN
9 numbers that were omitted while the document was being photocopied.
10 That's why I identified that document as not being authentic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We find this explained under column 7 where
12 you explain why you concluded or you were unable to conclude that it was
13 authentic and therefore had to conclude that, as far as you could assess,
14 that there could be no authenticity. Thank you for that answer.
15 That's it, Mr. Groome?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. No questions at this time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Jordash, will you be the first one to
18 cross-examine Mr. Milovanovic?
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Milovanovic.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I represent Mr. Stanisic, so you understand who I am.
25 I want to ask you, first of all, about something you said when
1 you testified last week.
2 MR. JORDASH: And, please, could I have on e-court P392, which
3 should be excerpt two from -- let me shortcut this. Could we go to the
4 next page, please. Yes, this is what I'm looking for.
5 Q. Last week you testified that you were confident that the Stanisic
6 referred to in this exhibit was Mico Stanisic. Do you recall that.
8 A. I don't see the name here, but I remember that I said that,
9 because there was a bit of a dilemma which Stanisic was referred to, but
10 here I can see in the text in the brackets Mico wrote the order, Bozovic
11 to form a special at the public security centre in Doboj, and that's how
12 I concluded that the Stanisic in question was Mico Stanisic, the
13 then-minister in Republika Srpska.
14 Q. And this, it seems, was a note written about a meeting with
15 political structures in Doboj. Do you see that heading?
16 A. Saturday, Doboj, 6 -- 6th of February, 1993, yes.
17 Q. And you also testified that - I think this is -- let me try to
18 paraphrase - at such meetings, the Stanisic who would be at the forefront
19 of the -- those engaged in the meeting would be Mico Stanisic. If Jovica
20 Stanisic was referred to, Jovica would be written down alongside
22 A. I believe that I said so. However, I am increasingly more
23 convinced that the person is Mico Stanisic, because we're talking about
24 Doboj and the setting up of the Special Police Unit in Doboj.
25 Jovica Stanisic never had anything to do with that. It was only the
1 minister of the interior of Republika Srpska who could have anything to
2 do with that.
3 Q. Can you confirm that Mico Stanisic was the minister of the
4 interior for Republika Srpska from March of 1992 until January of 1993?
5 Sorry, let me start that again. From March 1992. That was the
6 commencement of his post.
7 A. I know that Mico Stanisic was in that position in 1992 when the
8 military was being set up, because I met with him on several occasions.
9 How long he stayed in office, I don't know.
10 Q. Do you -- sorry. I interrupted you.
11 A. I know that he was replaced by Ratko Adzic as minister of the
12 interior, but I don't know when that took place.
13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about what you've just said concerning the
14 permission to set up the police -- Special Police Units in Doboj. It was
15 only the minister of interior of Republika Srpska who could have anything
16 to do with that. Could you clarify precisely what you mean by that?
17 A. Well, what I meant was this: When something is -- a unit is
18 being set up with the Ministry of the Interior, that the person in charge
19 of that would be the minister of the interior, nobody else.
20 Q. And do you know that from your own experience or are you
21 theorising about that generally?
22 A. It's only a hypothesis.
23 Q. Can you confirm Mico Stanisic was in that position at the
24 beginning of 1992? The earlier part, if I can leave it like that.
25 A. I've already said that. When the military or the
1 Army of Republika Srpska was being set up, that was in May and June 1992,
2 I met with Mico Stanisic on several occasions at the Main Staff.
3 Q. Thank you. You also said, and perhaps this is on the same
4 subject but I do want to ask you about it, you said on -- last week that
5 Jovica Stanisic would not be able to write an order to be located in
6 Doboj in any case. Could you explain that, please?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, if you are quoting, what was said is
8 that Jovica Stanisic would not have been able to write an order for the
9 unit to be located in Doboj. That's --
10 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: That's almost a word-for-word quote.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the unit is -- who or what is located in
14 Doboj doesn't appear in your quote.
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. The unit I'm referring to, Mr. Milovanovic, was the Red Berets,
17 which we can see mentioned in Exhibit P392. And with reference to that,
18 you said:
19 "Jovica Stanisic would not have been able to write an order for
20 the unit to be located in Doboj."
21 What did you mean precisely by that, please? Why did you arrive
22 at that conclusion?
23 A. If you are talking and if you're referring to the document that
24 is now before us on the screen, I don't remember that I ever mentioned
25 the Red Berets. I mentioned the centre of public security. And here
1 General Mladic writes:
2 "Mico wrote an order for Boskovic to set up a special unit with
3 the public security centre in Doboj."
4 I really don't remember ever having mentioned the term Red Berets
5 in this particular context.
6 Q. Do you know anything about Bozovic being present in Doboj in
8 A. No. I learned that on Friday as I was looking at this piece of
9 paper here.
10 Q. I'm correct -- it's correct, isn't it, that Mico Stanisic was the
11 ultimate commander of the CJB security centre in Doboj in 1992?
12 A. No. Mico Stanisic was the minister of the interior of
13 Republika Srpska.
14 Q. I beg your pardon. Yes.
15 MR. JORDASH: Please could Exhibit -- Rule 65 ter 4359 be brought
16 onto the e-court, please.
17 Q. I'm going to give you a little time to read through this,
18 Mr. Milovanovic, so you just have an understanding of what it is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think that we cannot see the top line in B/C/S. I
20 don't know whether the witness can, or does it ...
21 MR. JORDASH: I've just been told that apparently the B/C/S
22 version does not match the English.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It now does.
24 MR. JORDASH: It now does.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It didn't do a minute ago, but apparently it now
1 does. That was also the reason why I wanted to see the top of the B/C/S.
2 MR. JORDASH: Apparently this has been tendered as an exhibit
3 already, P00383, marked for identification.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could the document please be
5 scrolled up? Okay.
6 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I do apologise. It looks as though there's
7 some confusion. It's probably mine, but let me just try to clarify.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now we are back with the English we earlier had on
9 our screen, but now apparently with the right B/C/S corresponding --
10 MR. JORDASH: Yes. This is the one that should have been there.
11 Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not -- not easy for me to
13 read. The letter's a bit too small. Could the document please be blown
14 up a little?
15 Could the document please be scrolled up. Could we please go
16 down in the text.
17 I've read it.
18 MR. JORDASH:
19 Q. Did -- have you familiarised yourself with some of it,
20 Mr. Milovanovic?
21 A. Yes, with part of the text, but now I see page 2 again.
22 Q. Can we go to page 3 then, please.
23 A. But I haven't read through page 2 yet. Okay. Stay here. Could
24 you please scroll down.
25 Could you please scroll down some more.
1 Q. Mr. --
2 A. There seems to be no more. Possibly there's a page 3.
3 Q. There should be more than a page 3. Is this a document you have
4 you've seen? Wasn't this a document you were asked to review previously?
5 A. I have never seen it in my life before today.
6 MR. JORDASH: Could I just inquire then, is there only three
7 pages in the B/C/S? Because it's a much longer document in the English
9 JUDGE ORIE: How could the witness know if he hasn't seen it
10 before, Mr. Jordash? You can see in e-court that it's a six-page
11 document in B/C/S. I mean, I can find it in a second. So, therefore, I
12 take it -- and I can -- so why ask the witness who can look at one page
13 on the screen?
14 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I was inquiring of the Registry,
15 actually. Sorry.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's a six-page document, and it's signed --
17 or at least it's stamped at the bottom. I wouldn't say it's signed --
18 well, it's signed -- it has a stamp and a sign at the bottom.
19 MR. JORDASH: Could the witness be shown the remaining pages,
20 please. I just want to make sure he's seen everything.
21 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, I think this is a document you have seen and
22 marked as authentic. Does it not look familiar to you?
23 A. Well, I may have seen it these days during the proofing, but in
24 operative use in the VRS I never saw it.
25 Q. I'm merely asking about whether you've seen it in the last few
1 days so I can ask you questions about it without waiting for you to read
2 it all again. Let me ask you some questions about it if I can since
3 you've seen it before, marked it as authentic. Presumably you marked it
4 as authentic in part because of the contents. Am I right or not?
5 A. That's correct, because of the content, because in one of those
6 forms I wrote that I haven't read all the documents because there wasn't
7 enough time, but I read practically all the headings and saw who wrote it
8 and so on.
9 We can see that this one was written by Zdravko Tolimir.
10 Q. And who was he?
11 A. Zdravko Tolimir was the assistant commander of the Main Staff of
12 the VRS for intelligence- and security-related matters.
13 Q. So this is a intelligence report dated the 28th of July, 1992
14 being sent to, as we can see, Department for OB Affairs of 1st Krajina,
15 2nd Krajina, Eastern Bosnia, Sarajevo
16 as well as SR BH RV and PVO, president of the SR BH Presidency, SR BH
17 prime minister, SR BH Army Main Staff commander.
18 Are you familiar with this type of intelligence report from 1992?
19 A. In principle, yes.
20 Q. And in principle were the recipients the same as the recipients
21 marked on this particular document? Is this where intelligence about
22 paramilitaries went to from the intelligence and security sector of the
24 A. Yes. All the corps of the VRS are mentioned. It mentions also
25 RV and PVO, but that's wrong. We didn't call it RV, which means "air
1 force." And then it went to the president of the SR BH, the SR BH prime
2 minister, and the commander of the Main Staff of the SR BH. It was not
3 sent to me at the time.
4 Speaking about such documents and intelligence, I can say that I
5 never received any until mid 1993, because Tolimir thought we are sitting
6 next to each other, but at meetings of the Main Staff I put forward my
7 assessments of the situation in the combat theatre, but I didn't know
8 this information. And then General Mladic got angry and started shouting
9 at Tolimir, and then I started receiving such intelligence. That was
10 around mid-1993.
11 Q. So just remind me, if you would. Your position from May of 1992
12 until mid-1993 was what? What was your assignment in the VRS?
13 A. I was Chief of Main Staff of the VRS, and, at the same time,
14 according to the establishment, the deputy commander of the Main Staff of
15 the VRS.
16 Q. So from what you've said, from May of 1992, the establishment of
17 the -- the date of the establishment of the VRS, until mid-1993, you were
18 not receiving intelligence about the operations of paramilitary groups in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that a fair summary?
20 A. Well, we can't say that I didn't receive information. I did
21 receive information from Tolimir and the chief of the intelligence
22 administration, Colonel Salapura, but only in direct contact, without any
23 written communication. Simply, the chief of the intelligence
24 administration Salapura, if he had any news about the enemy, he would
25 come to see me and brief me orally. Tolimir did the same if he had
1 anything that was security related.
2 I remember some things from this particular document. I remember
3 this Zuco guy --
4 Q. Mr. -- sorry to interrupt, Mr. Milovanovic. I'm going to ask you
5 about the document in a minute. I just want to ask you about the
6 information you were receiving.
7 Mladic, in the middle of 1993, was perturbed, let me put it that
8 way, that his Chief of Staff was not receiving proper information about
9 the activities of paramilitaries in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And as far as you were aware during this period, that
12 intelligence was going only to the named people in this report?
13 A. Yes. And that can be seen at the bottom of this page. This is
14 the only correct thing compared to what I read over the weekend, I mean,
15 the 54 documents. I said and can confirm now that both in peacetime and
16 in war time there is the obligation for intelligence and security
17 services of friendly countries in a region to co-operate, and
18 General Tolimir was duty-bound to inform the commanders of all
19 subordinate units. Furthermore, to inform the intelligence
20 administration of the General Staff of the VJ, as a neighbouring armed
21 force. Furthermore, the Main
22 which I -- which is not indicated here or I may have skipped it. And if
23 he considers it necessary to inform the Commander-In-Chief of something
24 and the commander of the Main Staff of his own army, he had to do so.
25 All the other names that -- and I said that in relation to the document
1 put forward by the Prosecutor, he would also pass on to the
2 General Staffs of the armies of neighbouring countries.
3 Q. Let me try to understand that. Are you suggesting this
4 intelligence in 1992 went to the VJ?
5 A. Well, it should have been passed on to them, but I can see here
6 that it wasn't.
7 Q. So is it your understanding that it was being sent to the VJ in
9 A. Well, I can only say it should have been sent to them. Why this
10 does -- why this isn't indicated on the document among the addressees, I
11 don't know, but not even the Main Staff of the Serbian Army of the
12 Krajina is mentioned here as one of the recipients, and it should have
13 gone there. All the documents that I've seen in these few days, these
14 two are mentioned as recipients, and that's what I said in my additional
16 Q. The documents, we'll come to some of them later, but the
17 documents that you have looked at where, for example, Jovica Stanisic is
18 copied as a member -- as the chief of the state security of Serbia, were
19 from 1993 in the main. Could I suggest that 1992 intelligence such as
20 this was not being sent to the Republic of Serbia
21 would suggest the names would have been on this document.
22 A. Sir, I repeat that I don't know whether documents in 1992 were
23 sent to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I cannot tell from this
24 document. And the documents that are reviewed these days mostly relate
25 to 1993 and 1994, and there I saw that it was indicated in each document
1 that they were sent there.
2 Mr. President, since Defence counsel insists that I explain to
3 him something that I have already explained in my letter, I suggest that
4 I read out the letter which the interpreters can interpret. It is not
5 long. It's handwritten, one and a half page, so typed it would be less
6 than one page.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we left if in the hands of the parties until
8 now what to do with the document, but if you say that an answer to a
9 question which was put to you by Mr. Jordash is found in this letter,
10 under those circumstances I would suggest that we follow this offer, and
11 we invite you then to read it. But it's common experience that, when
12 reading, speed of speech goes up. So if you would really keep the pace
14 Do you have the letter in front you, or would you need to be
15 provided with a copy? Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just received it. Can I
17 start reading?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I reviewed in detail all
20 information enclosed which Colonel Zdravko Tolimir or his deputies Beara
21 and Salapura, that is, Ljubisa Beara and Petar Salapura, sent to various
22 addresses in parts of the former SFRY. I feel duty-bound to explain the
24 "1. It is common practice for friendly countries in peacetime
25 and war time to exchange intelligence. That is done at the level of the
1 intelligence services of General Staffs or Main Staffs respectively.
2 "As far as the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is concerned,
3 Tolimir is duty-bound to submit information only to the intelligence
4 administration of the General Staff of the army of the SRJ and nobody
5 else in Yugoslavia
6 his country he will acquaint with that information."
8 "And the chief of the intelligence administration of the
9 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia decides who in his country he will
10 acquaint with this information, whether it should be the Chief of
11 General Staff, the state head, this or that government minister, or
12 anybody else. It follows that there is no need to list other
13 institutions in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, least of all the
14 persons at -- who are heads of those institutions, including
15 Jovica Stanisic or anybody else.
16 "Secondly, it follows from this information that Tolimir, Beara,
17 and Salapura regularly mentioned the name of Jovica Stanisic,
18 General Djordje Djukic, chief of the nationality security of
19 Republika Srpska Dragan Kijac, Colonel Spiro Pereula. Spiro Pereula is
20 Tolimir's man installed in the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.
21 And the names of Zoran Sokolovic, minister of the interior of Serbia, and
22 one Blagojevic, the federal minister of the interior of the Federal
23 Republic of Yugoslavia
24 "If you take a closer look, you will see that those are the
25 names of people who hold higher ranks or higher positions than Tolimir.
1 So this was meant to prove that he is in direct communication with
2 'important' persons from the region. Never was the name of anybody from
3 the Republic of Serb Krajina mentioned (they are not important) or from
4 commands subordinate to ours to who information was sent.
5 "Thirdly, because of all this, I wanted to point it out to you
6 that in the about 160 pages of Tolimir's intelligence that is enclosed,
7 their contents either incriminates or exculpates Mr. Jovica Stanisic.
8 The administration of the Tribunal was only unnecessarily burdened with a
9 large quantity of paper.
10 "The Hague
11 THE INTERPRETER: 25 April 2010
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I don't know if other people heard it,
14 but I thought that I heard at page 20, line 21, that the word "either"
15 was, in fact, "neither." It seems to contextually make more sense, but
16 maybe Mr. Jordash could clarify with the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. JORDASH:
19 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, just to clarify something that was said by you
20 and may have been recorded mistakenly, could you just repeat the line
21 which starts off with "Thirdly, because of all this ..."
22 A. "Thirdly, because of all this, I wanted to point out to you that
23 the enclosed pages of Tolimir's intelligence, about 160 pages of it, do
24 not either incriminate or exculpate Mr. Jovica Stanisic. The
25 administration of the Tribunal was only unnecessarily burdened with a
1 large quantity of paper."
2 JUDGE ORIE: This, I think, clarifies the issue. I see also the
3 negations and in the original text we see nay, nay, and the context is
4 also better understandable, that he says it neither does, nor, and
5 therefore it was an unnecessary burden. That last part is, by the way,
6 your opinion.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Let me just try to make sure I understand what you're saying in
10 this note. Are you suggesting that the document we've been looking at
11 from Tolimir, which doesn't contain the name of officials from the
12 Republic of Serbia
13 the name of officials from Serbia
14 intelligence was passed to them?
15 A. Unfortunately, I did not understand your question.
16 Q. I'm not surprised. That's my question, which was a bit long.
17 Are you -- are you suggesting that it was normal protocol for
18 intelligence to be sent to those named in this document; thereafter, the
19 chief of administration would make a decision as to what was passed on to
20 other republics?
21 A. Do you want me to answer?
22 Q. [Microphone not activated]
23 A. Not only was it customary, but it was prescribed. Co-operation
24 with partnership countries should have been established at the level of
25 the services of the same ranks. Since I'm talking about the
1 Military Intelligence Service of Republika Srpska, that service had to
2 exchange information with military service of the Federal Republic
4 General Staff of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And now there were
5 other institutions that co-operated with each other, for example,
6 State Security Services.
7 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Witness, may I just stop you there. Is it -- is this
8 correct: You actually cannot testify to what intelligence was or was not
9 being passed to the Republic of Serbia
10 was customary, but you actually do not know?
11 A. Judging from the 54 reports that I've read these days, it is
12 clear that the intelligence service of Republika Srpska overstepped its
13 authorities. And let me be more precise. It overstepped the authorities
14 that were prescribed. Instead of just communicating with the
15 intelligence service of the General Staff of Yugoslavia, it communicated
16 with all the services in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Not in
18 deemed it necessary that they should communicate with.
19 Q. I'm talking about 1992. Did you see any reports in -- dated 1992
20 with intelligence concerning paramilitary formations?
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the general wasn't given any reports
22 from 1992, so I think it's a somewhat misleading question to say reports
23 from 1992 that had certain information in it.
24 MR. JORDASH: Well, that was the point I was trying to make.
25 Q. You didn't look at any reports from 1992, and my question was
1 focused on 1992. You cannot testify to what intelligence was being
2 passed to the Republic of Serbia
3 A. Well, you are partially right. I have told you that in 1992 I
4 did not receive any intelligence. I only started receiving intelligence
5 report in mid-1993. So I was not in a position to know who Tolimir sent
6 it to.
7 Second of all, I said, and I believe that made you draw an
8 erroneous conclusion, I said that I do know certain things. I spoke
9 about that on Friday. I do know certain things about that person
10 Zuco from Zvornik, and I also know something but not from this
11 intelligence but from other sources, from the reports submitted to me by
12 subordinated units about the disappearance or the theft according to the
13 information that I had at the time of anything between 2 and 11 tons of
14 silver from Sase mine. As soon as I received that information, I
15 reported to President Karadzic who told me he -- he told me then that
16 that was not within the purview of the army, that that was not our
18 Q. Why were you, the Chief of Staff, not receiving written reports
19 until mid-1993 about what must have been one of the critical military
20 issues in Bosnia-Herzegovina during 1992 and early 1993?
21 A. I did not receive it because that was not prescribed at the time.
22 It was the commander of the Main Staff who received such reports. And
23 then at his own discretion he was supposed to brief his assistants, the
24 assistants that he himself selected. However, this was done by
25 General Mladic because although we had -- or we shared an office during
1 the war, we never stayed in the same office at the same time. When he
2 was there, I was on the line and vice versa. And that's when he decided
3 that I should collect information about the enemy through
4 Colonel Salapura and through the commands of subordinate units. Or
5 according to him, and I quote:
6 "I don't want my deputy to collect intelligence in trenches."
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go back to the document quickly. The
8 first paragraph of -- states:
9 "Paramilitary formations and groups are an important feature of
10 the war in the former Yugoslavia
11 territory have special identifying names such as Arkan's men, Seselj's
12 men, Captain Dragan's commandos, Captain Oliver's commandos, Jovic's men,
13 White Eagles, Wolves, Smoked Ribs, and the like."
14 Now, in July 1992 were you aware of these groups, you as the
15 Chief of Staff?
16 A. On Friday I spoke about the way the General Staff treated
17 paramilitaries. I spoke about Arkan's men. They disappeared in May 1992
18 and --
19 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, I want to try to get finished as quickly as
20 possible, so if you could try to address my questions directly. Were you
21 aware of these groups in May -- sorry, in July of 1992? Were you aware
22 of them on BiH territory?
23 A. Well, it all depended. I was aware of Arkan's men, but they were
24 no longer in the territory. I heard of Seselj's men, but I never saw
25 them, nor did anybody tell me that they had come in conflict with
1 Seselj's men. Whatever arrived from the territory of Serbia
2 territory of Republika Srpska, whoever arrived, they tended to introduce
3 themselves as Seselj -- Seselj's men. About Captain Dragan, I told you
4 on Friday what happened to them. As for commandos headed by
5 Captain Oliver, I never heard of them before. As for Carli's men, I
6 don't think that they were an organised paramilitary formation.
7 Carli's men were those people who opened fire from mounted mortars.
8 Carli was the name that we gave to those weapons. As for Jovic's men,
9 they did not exist in the territory of Republika Srpska. There were some
10 attempts on the part of Jovic to build them into the armed formations of
11 Republika Srpska, but we disallowed that. White Eagles, I heard of
12 them --
13 Q. Sorry, go ahead.
14 A. I heard of two types of Wolves, Wolves from Vucjak headed by
15 lieutenant Milankovic, they were incorporated in the 1st Corps and they
16 came under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska. And then there
17 were the Drina Wolves, and that was a special unit on the strength of the
19 Tolimir's intelligence. During the war, I was never aware of them. I
20 never heard of them during the war.
21 Q. Okay. Could I turn, please, to page 5 of the English version. I
22 want to just read you something. In -- and it says this at
23 paragraph 3 --
24 MR. JORDASH: If we turn to that in the B/C/S.
25 Q. "In the area of the Serbian municipality of Skelani
1 so-called Red Berets was established headed by Nikola Pupovac, one of
2 Captain Dragan's pupils."
3 Did you know anything about that?
4 A. I heard about that between the 16th and the 21st of January. On
5 the 16th, the exodus of the Serbian population started in the area around
6 Skelani. I personally issued an order for two battalions to arrive from
7 the 1st Krajina Corps, and that was done within the three or four days.
8 On the 21st, I went to Skelani to see what had been done by those
9 two battalions. The population started returning by then. And then I
10 heard that in the Skelani sector - and I don't know in which village
11 exactly - a group of six -- 26 Serbs who had come from across the Drina
12 from Serbia
13 different ways, but they mostly spoke about themselves as
14 Seselj's Chetniks. I reported back to the commander on the same evening,
15 and he ordered Tolimir -- or, rather, Beara, the head of security, to
16 make that group disappear. And that's all I can tell you. I found it
17 very strange when I read about that in one of the reports that I perused
19 Q. So are you making a connection between Captain Dragan's pupil
20 Nikola Pupovac and the Red Berets and Seselj's men? I just want to
21 understand what you're saying.
22 A. Let me put it this way: Among people, Seselj's men was a general
23 term for everybody who came to Republika Srpska from somewhere else.
24 They referred to themselves either to disguise their identity or for some
25 other reasons. They said that they belonged to Seselj and they were
1 Seselj's Chetniks. Everybody but Arkan's men. All those groups that
2 turned up.
3 Q. So the intelligence that -- is this correct: The intelligence
4 that you received in 1992 about Dragan's men, was that limited then
5 to -- let me put it differently. Did you know where they were from other
6 than Serbia
7 A. You're referring specifically to Captain Dragan's men?
8 Q. Yes. I'm looking at the report. There's no suggestion that
9 there was any intelligence as to where they came from. Was that the
10 state of your knowledge in 1992?
11 A. We knew, when Captain Dragan appeared in Divic near Zvornik, that
12 a few men came with him from Knin, from the Republic of Serbian Krajina
13 He had been their commander over there. And we also knew that he was
14 joined by several men from Republika Srpska. And we also knew that most
15 of the men who were with him were from Serbia. However, I told you that
16 that group obeyed me and left the Drina area sometime in mid-June 1992.
17 Q. So they were known at that time by no other name than
18 Captain Dragan's men except that they sometimes referred to themselves as
19 Seselj's men; is that correct?
20 A. When we are talking about Captain Dragan's men, I did not hear
21 anybody referring to them as Seselj's men. They themselves did not call
22 themselves that. I have told you that whenever people from somewhere
23 else appeared, the local population would be told that they were
24 Seselj's men, and that's the kind of intelligence we received from the
25 ground. We would always hear about such men appearing as Seselj's men,
1 and it really rarely proved to be true, if ever.
2 Q. Captain Dragan's men are described in paragraph one as
3 Captain Dragan's commandos. Is that how you as the Chief of Staff knew
4 them in 1992?
5 A. No. I would really be embarrassed to use the name that I called
6 them before this Trial Chamber.
7 Q. Why, is it --
8 MR. JORDASH: Sorry. I note the time, Your Honour. Could I ask
9 one question?
10 Q. I don't know what you're going to say, but since you offered it,
11 could you say what name you referred to them as?
12 A. I personally called them renegade, thieving bastards.
13 Q. And other people called them Captain Dragan's commandos; is that
15 A. Well, in this text you can see the term "Captain Dragan's
16 commandos." Tolimir is the author of the text, so you can draw your own
17 conclusion as to how the author or Tolimir called them.
18 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour. If I could just finish this.
19 Q. I know Tolimir referred to him as that. We know what you
20 referred to them as. Were they known generally amongst the VRS, from
21 your knowledge and experience of personnel within the VRS, as
22 Captain Dragan's commandos? That's what I'm getting at.
23 A. I don't know how they were referred to, but I repeat for the
24 umpteenth time, from the 23rd of June when the mobilisation of the
25 Army of Republika Srpska finished, they did not have any of the
1 aforementioned groups under its command. In other words, the
2 Army of Republika Srpska did not contain any paramilitary formations.
3 Some continued bearing their names, as, for example, Wolves, but they
4 were on the strength of the Army of Republika Srpska.
5 Q. We'll come to that later.
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 We'll have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past 4.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. May I apply to tender that
13 document as an exhibit, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection. In
16 fact, I think we have tendered it and it was marked for identification
17 based on opposition from counsel.
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, that's right. Can I withdraw the
19 opposition that I expressed at that time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Implicitly you have done so already,
21 Mr. Jordash. And it had received a number already. It was P383, MFI'd,
22 and is now admitted into evidence.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Let me just ask you quickly -- let me just ask you quickly,
25 Mr. Milovanovic, about Arkan and two particular events. Did Arkan have a
1 relationship with Rajko Dukic in or about 1994?
2 A. I don't know about 1994, but in or about June 1992 I know that he
3 had contact with Arkan.
4 Q. Rajko Dukic was practically like Karadzic's deputy, is that
5 right, in 1992?
6 A. First of all, the name is not Djukic, it is Dukic.
7 He was the director of the Boksit mine in Milici, and he was the
8 president of the Executive Committee of the SDS, and that would be the
9 rank equal to the deputy president of the party.
10 Q. And the municipality was -- was this the municipality of Milici
11 A. I don't understand the question. You mean does it refer to Dukic
12 at Milici or --
13 Q. Let me strike that question and let me ask you this: Did Dukic
14 employ Arkan? Did he engage him?
15 A. I'm not sure about the date, but it must have been in June 1992
16 when Dukic came to the Main Staff and he spoke to General Mladic. He
17 suggested to him that the Main Staff allow Dukic to employ 120
18 Arkan's Tigers to guard the mine. General Mladic took the newspapers and
19 replied, Tell that story to my chief, because he likes rubbish.
20 And Dukic started talking that he needed 120 men, that he would
21 pay -- or, rather, the management of the mine for guarding the mine. And
22 I said to him, Sir, we went to great ends in May and June to get rid of
23 paramilitaries, especially of Arkan, and said that was out of the
24 question. And he started enumerating to me where we should deploy units,
25 that is, a company round the mine to enable that mine to function
2 Q. Mr. -- sorry to interrupt. Was Arkan employed on behalf of
4 A. Not then.
5 Q. Was Dukic's request sanctioned by Karadzic?
6 A. No, it wasn't.
7 Q. Was Arkan subsequently employed by Dukic?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Did --
10 A. But I must say that after that conversation with Dukic, who
11 demanded about 26 companies of the VRS, I said to him, That's two and a
12 half brigades. We don't have as many soldiers. He said to me, General,
13 as you are from the Krajina, bring some people from the Krajina.
14 I refused that. Actually, Mladic threw him out of the office.
15 In the evening, I informed the president of the republic,
16 Mr. Karadzic, of that conversation with Dukic, and Karadzic said to me,
17 Disband them or scatter them if they should turn up again. But they
19 Q. Did Karadzic order Arkan to come on his behalf in September of
20 1995 to BiH?
21 A. That is still a mystery to me.
22 Q. What is a mystery to you? You know, don't you, that Arkan was
23 engaged by Karadzic to take over Kljucic in September of 1995? You've
24 dealt with this in a previous interview; we can turn to it if you want.
25 Or you can cast your mind back and see if you remember to assist the
2 A. What am I supposed to remember?
3 Q. Well, do you recall Arkan being engaged by Karadzic to take over
4 Kljucic on the 16th of September, 1995? Let me remind you a bit further.
5 You and Mladic subsequently banished Arkan, having disagreed with
6 Karadzic's decision.
7 A. When I used the word "mystery," that's a lone word in the Serbian
8 language and means something that I don't know, something unknown to me.
9 That is why I'm saying that it is still a mystery to me how Arkan turned
10 up in the Republika Srpska. What you call Kljucic is the town of Kljuc
11 which the VRS lost on that 16th of September, and I don't know that Arkan
12 asked for permission to take Kljuc.
13 Q. Well, let me just ask one more. And if you can't remember, we
14 can turn to the interview. Karadzic brought Arkan to Kljuc, and you and
15 Mladic made an agreement that Arkan should be banished, notwithstanding
16 Karadzic's authorisation. Try and assist us if you can.
17 A. I will try to assist you. Arkan appeared without the knowledge
18 of the VRS, that is, without the knowledge of the Main Staff. He
19 appeared at the theatre of war in the RS in September 1995.
20 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm short of time. Did Karadzic --
21 do you remember Karadzic having a part to play in this or not? If you
22 don't remember, we'll turn to the interview. Do you remember?
23 A. Karadzic had a role to play, but I don't know exactly what. I
24 don't know if Karadzic ordered Arkan to come or whether he had invited
25 him to come to the RS. Karadzic always denied that. Whereas Arkan, at a
1 meeting, in Karadzic's presence said to me that he had come, following
2 the orders of President Karadzic. And he even used the phrase "our
3 supreme commander" to refer to him. In Karadzic's presence, I demanded
4 Arkan to produce that order, because we in the Main Staff doubted the
5 existence of that order. We had never seen it. He said he had left the
6 order in the Bosna Hotel. I told him to go there and get it, but later
7 he changed his mind, and my conclusion was that there was no such order.
8 I asked Karadzic in the presence of Arkan, Mr. Koljevic,
9 Ms. Plavsic, Mr. Krajisnik, General Talic, and General Kelecevic, I said,
10 Mr. President, did you ask or order Arkan to come? And Karadzic did not
12 Q. Karadzic didn't reply and he didn't deny that he had; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 MR. JORDASH: Could we have please --
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.
16 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, on e-court P386, MFI'd. And
17 could we -- this is --
18 Q. Can you see the front page there, Mr. Milovanovic? Can you
19 confirm that you've had the opportunity, I think, during the preparation
20 sessions, to look at this document?
21 A. Yes, I did have the opportunity, and I looked at it. But I
22 didn't have time to read it, nor did I want to because I was one of the
23 authors of this document.
24 Q. Well let me take you to page 49. I just want to ask you some
25 very quick questions and then we can move on.
1 MR. JORDASH: Forty-nine we should start with and the quoting
2 of ... the same page for the B/C/S, I think. No, it's not.
3 Q. Maybe we can shortcut it in this way: Could I read you a
4 paragraph and see if you recognise the paragraph, Mr. Witness?
5 MR. JORDASH: For Your Honours, it's page 49 of the English
6 version, and it's the first full paragraph.
7 Q. "The unfavourable political and security situation immediately
8 before the war, and the break-up of the intelligence and security system,
9 which resulted from the stratification along ethnic lines of, especially,
10 the commanding staff in the intelligence and security organs, had a
11 rather adverse effect on the combat morale of the core fighting units
12 from which the army of RS was formed."
13 Do you recall that paragraph in this combat readiness report
14 reporting on 1992, Mr. Milovanovic?
15 A. I cannot see that paragraph in front of me, and it's unrealistic
16 to expect me to remember a paragraph after 18 years.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The page in B/C/S seems to be in e-court page 44 out
18 of 142, which starts with 2.2, manifestations of morale.
19 MR. JORDASH: Yes. I'm sorry, I should have found the B/C/S.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And if -- so, therefore, it -- most likely it's even
21 43, which is the last portion before paragraph 2.2.
22 MR. JORDASH: I think it is.
23 Q. Can you see the paragraph? If you could read it to yourself,
24 Mr. Milovanovic, beginning with "The unfavourable political and security
25 situation ..."
1 A. I can see page 43, whereas the President of the Trial Chamber
2 mentioned page 44. I cannot see what you're asking me on page 43. Now I
3 see it.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you.
5 A. Could we please scroll down.
6 I have read the paragraph.
7 Q. Do you agree that the intelligence and security system in 1992 of
8 the VRS was way below competent, which affected, as the paragraph
9 suggests, the combat morale of the core fighting unit?
10 A. One of the authors of this text is the section of morale, legal,
11 and religious affairs of the Main Staff. This is not an assessment of
12 the intelligence and security service of the VRS, but this is, rather, an
13 assessment of the morale, the undeveloped or poor system that existed at
14 the beginning of the war, that is, in May, June, et cetera. When the VRS
15 was established, was being established, the intelligence and the security
16 service was being established parallelly. And General Gvero, who was in
17 charge of these issues, mentions one of the reasons why combat morale was
18 below the required level when the VRS was only being incepted.
19 MR. JORDASH: Okay. Could we turn, please, to 83 in the English
20 version, which is 74 in the B/C/S.
21 Q. Could you -- is this section familiar to you, Mr. Milovanovic?
22 A. This is a chapter I know. One of the authors of this chapter is
23 probably Tolimir.
24 Q. Do you agree with the assessment at the bottom of -- well, the
25 English version, bottom of 83, the paragraph I'm interested in reads:
1 "Due to financial constraints and the inability to provide any
2 safety guarantees whatsoever to non-Serb operational sources in our
3 territory, we did not manage to preserve the existing or recruit new
4 high-quality sources in enemy territory. We therefore focused on sources
5 motivated by patriotism (mostly Serbs and friends) who, being known as
6 such in a hostile environment, had no access to significant intelligence
8 Do you agree with that? Could you elaborate on it?
9 A. I agree with this assessment, because in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
10 there was above all an inter-ethnic war, and then it was also a civil war
11 and a religious war, et cetera. So we were, at least in the beginning,
12 unable to develop sources on the enemy side. So we couldn't really
13 develop secret agents or whatever the technical term is.
14 You mentioned the term "Serbia," but this isn't about Serbia
15 is about Serbs and their friends.
16 I fully agree with the contents of this paragraph, because these
17 are always the ailnesses when the -- when intelligence services are first
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. JORDASH: Can we turn to page 85 of the English version,
21 please, which is page 76 of the B/C/S.
22 Q. And I'm interested in the paragraph which is one, two, three,
23 four, five, six paragraphs down on page 85 of the English version and
24 starts with:
25 "Co-operation and exchange of data with related services in the
1 territory of RS is generally satisfactory, as well as with the Main Staff
2 of the SVRSK. Of late, co-operation has been -- also been intensified
3 with the intelligence and security organs of the Army of Yugoslavia,
4 while with the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia
5 still at an unsatisfactory level."
6 Do you see that, Mr. Milovanovic?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Was this an accurate assessment of the intelligence sharing with
9 the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia
10 A. I cannot either confirm or deny because I wasn't familiar with
11 the details of who we were co-operating with or not co-operating,
12 because, after all, this wasn't anything that I had to take care of in
13 the Main Staff. This wasn't my business.
14 Q. Okay. Well, we'll leave it there.
15 MR. JORDASH: May I tender this as an exhibit, Your Honour?
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection. If
17 the Chamber will recall, this is one of the documents that we tendered
18 last week, and the Chamber took the view that since it was of such a
19 large size that we should meet and discuss with Defence whether we could
20 agree on certain excerpts. So I was prepared to do that. But on
21 principle, I have no objection to the document.
22 MR. JORDASH: I'd be content to, if Your Honours prefer, just to
23 have the pages I referred to in. I will undoubtedly over the next few
24 months refer to it some more.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it -- it should also include -- in the
1 beginning we see that there is a kind of an index or at least -- so that
2 we know what the whole of the document is about and then
3 if [indiscernible].
4 Now, Mr. Groome, could you assist me. Had we already assigned an
5 MFI number to it, or was it just open?
6 MR. GROOME: I believe there is a MFI number to it, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It's P386 [Microphone not activated].
9 JUDGE ORIE: P386 will then keep the status of MFI, and the
10 parties are invited to -- to reduce the size of what should be admitted
11 from this document, and then the Chamber is aware that that could be
12 enlarged at later stages of the proceedings.
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
16 MR. JORDASH: May I have P00258 on e-court, please. It should be
17 a map which is number 35 in the book provided by the Prosecution.
18 Q. I'm moving, as that comes onto the screen, Mr. Milovanovic, to
19 your comments and your meeting with Mr. Stanisic on the
20 23rd of January, 1993 at Tara
21 week you expressed surprise or certainly in the unit transcript video you
22 referred to Mr. Stanisic's knowledge as somewhat surprising. Do you
23 recall that?
24 A. Yes, I remember. I said that I was full of admiration for the
25 man's good knowledge of Eastern Bosnia.
1 Q. I'm trying to have them --
2 MR. JORDASH: It's coming. 258, yes.
3 Q. I want to deal with this meeting in a wider context, and the
4 context I want to deal with it in is the attacks by Naser Oric. Is --
5 the meeting at Tara
6 Naser Oric's men; is that correct?
7 A. That is not correct. The meeting was held about the principal
8 topic of the ways and means of assisting the Republic of Serbian Krajina
9 which they had been attacked by the Croats who had violated the
10 Vance-Owen Plan. Martic demanded assistance from me, but I was unable to
11 provide it. He wanted air force support. And I forwarded the request to
12 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, who was duty-bound to do it because
13 they were a guarantor of the Vance-Owen Plan, but Karadzic and Mladic,
14 who were in London
15 should have a meeting with General Panic from the Army of the Republic of
16 Serbian Krajina to find a way to help them.
17 We were supposed to meet on the 23rd of January at Tara, but on
18 the same day the hydro power plant of Visegrad was attacked, which was a
19 joint hydro power plant. That became more of a problem for me than the
20 Republic of Serbian
21 While I was waiting for General Panic with my team, I learned
22 that in a village around Visegrad, I believe it's Mokronozi, but I'm not
23 sure, from the morning until the afternoon hours, that is, or about 2.00,
24 some 2- or 300 Serb civilians had been killed. So that was the
1 I was explaining that to Panic on the map, but we were unable to
2 reach any agreement without Panic, but he was -- he couldn't make any
3 decisions without his supreme commander, Dobrica Cosic, who was abroad.
4 While I was explaining the situation in Eastern Bosnia to Panic,
5 Jovica Stanisic assisted me, who knew that area very well it turned out.
6 Jovica and I didn't even discuss amongst ourselves. I, at most,
7 confirmed some things that Jovica said, and I merely -- I was merely
8 saying that he knew about those things better than I did.
9 Q. Did Naser Oric's men attack Serbian -- Bosnian Serb territory in
10 May of 1992? Could you explain what happened?
11 A. Naser Oric's attacks against Serbian villages and hamlets around
12 Srebrenica started before the armed conflicts officially started between
13 Muslims and Serbs. He organised something that the Muslims called
14 Patriotic League or the Red Berets that preceded the official
15 establishment of the BiH Army. I'm not sure of the exact date, although
16 these days I have been reading a book called "Serbian Slaughter Execution
17 Sites." In any case --
18 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, I think I may have misspoken and said
19 May of 1993, but I meant to say May of 1992. Oric's men went on the
20 rampage in early 1992 and attacked 56 villages in the Drina region around
21 Srebrenica; is that correct?
22 A. I believe that you are quoting me and the things that I said
23 yesterday. I said 156 villages and hamlets. I know that 91 villages and
24 hamlets were completely destroyed in the process, and I know that in that
25 part of the Drina
1 from March 1992 to February 1993, a total of 3.200 Serbs were killed in
2 the area. The rest were expelled. As a result of that, in central Drina
3 region between Zvornik and Zepa only 9 per cent of the Serbs remained.
4 The villages were empty, plundered, destroyed.
5 Q. Could you see the map on the screen in front of you?
6 A. Yes, I can see it, although it is not very legible. The letters
7 are very small. I can see Visegrad, however. I can see Srebrenica
9 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, is it possible --
10 MR. JORDASH: Could Mr. Milovanovic be given a pen to mark on the
11 map where these attacks were taking place along the border.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have a pen.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for a second, Mr. Milovanovic.
14 MR. JORDASH: Can we zoom in a little so Mr. Milovanovic can see
15 it properly and then can mark on the map where these attacks took place,
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Milovanovic, if you could give instructions as
18 to what area we need which would allow you to mark the attacks. Is this
19 the right portion or ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from this position --
21 or, rather, at this moment I cannot start listing the villages for you.
22 I could if somebody first gave me their names. I couldn't say yes or no.
23 It really isn't easy to start listing all the 156 villages and hamlets.
24 I really wouldn't know where to start.
25 In any case, I'm talking about the villages around Srebrenica,
1 south of Srebrenica. For example, Podravno is something that rings a
3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you if could indicate the area, if it is one
4 area. Then you could just put a circle around that area once a pen has
5 been given to you. Is that possible on this map, or is the area too
6 small or too large?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We will not get a larger
8 number of villages if the map is blown up. Let's start with Srebrenica,
9 for example, and then south of Srebrenica on the very border is Podravno,
10 or Podravanje as we used to call it. That's one of the villages that got
11 destroyed. And then if we go northward towards Srebrenica, there is the
12 village of Zeleni Jadar. And then, to the west, Bucje, Dile,
13 Rupovo Brdo, Suceska --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I see -- Mr. Jordash, may I take it that you would
15 be happy to have at least some of these villages and not all 156.
16 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see several of the villages which
18 Mr. Milovanovic is mentioning on that map.
19 So could we invite you that whenever you see a village on the map
20 that you encircle it so that we can see it as well. I think you started
21 with Podravno.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would perhaps read the names when you
24 are ...
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let's start all over again.
1 Podravno, Bucje, Suceska, Rupovo Brdo, Dile, Zeleni Jadar, Osmace,
2 Brezani, Poznanovici, Mocevici, Obadi.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I leave it in your hands.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milici.
5 MR. JORDASH:
6 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, thank you. Could I maybe shortcut things and
7 ask you to confirm this: The attacks took place along the border from
8 Zvornik to Visegrad. Zvornik in the north, which we cannot see on the
9 map quite, just above --
10 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps we can move the map down a little so we
11 can see --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, we can't.
13 MR. JORDASH: We can't.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We can't move and zoom in or out any more once --
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. Would you agree with that, Mr. Milovanovic, that the attacks took
17 place along the border from approximately Zvornik down to Visegrad which
18 is south of Srebrenica?
19 A. No. From Zvornik down to a hill called Zlovrh or it's part of
20 Susica Mountain
21 plundered. They were not an organised army. They were just armed
22 locals. They attacked Serb villages from Muslim villages. They
23 destroyed it and torched it. South of Zlovrh in the direction of
24 Visegrad, there were others who operated. I don't know what their
25 formations were called, but, in any case, they were Muslims from the
1 territory of Zepa and some other towns down there whose names I can't
2 remember. In any case, they were a different group.
3 Q. Did Naser Oric have any foreign Muslims in his midst at that
4 time? Was there any Mujahedin?
5 A. I didn't see them. I never received intelligence in 1992 about
6 the existence of any Mujahedin. Subsequently I learned that they
7 appeared in the second half of 1993. I saw a footage depicting a
8 decapitated man called Blagojevic with a Mujahedin. I don't know how
9 many there were in this part of Bosnia
10 Q. Okay. We'll come to that later. But, nonetheless, Serb
11 civilians were being brutalised by thousands of Oric's men at that time
12 along this border that we're looking at?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. I am trying hard to locate the village of
14 Kravice. I can't see it. In the course of a single day, 61 persons were
15 killed there, predominantly civilians, predominantly women and elderly
17 Q. Did Naser Oric also attack Skelani in early January of 1993?
18 A. From the 16th to the 21st of January, 1993, I believe that those
19 men belonged to Naser. I've already spoken about those incidents. Not
20 only do I think, I am actually sure that they were Naser's men.
21 Q. Can we please have another copy of this map on the screen so we
22 can --
23 JUDGE ORIE: But then this one should first be saved and assigned
24 a number, then, I take it.
25 MR. JORDASH: Actually, sorry, Your Honour, I can see Skelani
1 there on the map. That's what I'm interested in.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Skelani is close, by Bajina Basta.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. Skelani, Mr. Witness --
5 MR. JORDASH: I'll apply to tender in a moment, Your Honour.
6 Q. Skelani is a border town with a bridge over to Banja Basta in
7 Serbian territory -- Serbian territory; is that correct?
8 A. Skelani is in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and across
9 the Drina
10 Q. Thank you. And following that attack, there were incursions into
11 Bajina Basta; is that correct?
12 A. I am not aware of any incursions by people, but I know that
13 Bajina Basta was plundered from the left bank of the Drina because people
14 were fleeing across the only bridge between Skelani and Bajina Basta.
15 And there were shots fired after the population fleeing into Serbia
16 I believe some of the shells or infantry ammunition hit buildings in
17 Bajina Basta as well. And I know that there were protests from Serbia
18 and that was -- that it was reported on the news that Bajina Basta had
19 come under attack.
20 Q. And this was a significant event because it was perhaps one of
21 the first times that the border had been violated by Naser Oric's troops;
22 is that correct?
23 A. I don't know whether that was the first instance, but I know that
24 it was not an only one. Mali Zvornik also came under mortar fire from
25 the left bank of the Drina
1 know when that was.
2 MR. JORDASH: Could I have, please, on the -- could I tender this
3 map as an exhibit, please.
4 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Marked -- map marked by the witness,
6 Madam Registrar, would be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D39, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D39 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. JORDASH: I beg your pardon. Sorry, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We admitted into evidence what you wanted us to
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
13 Q. You've -- you mentioned the Vance-Owen Plan a moment ago. Was
14 there a provision within that plan for Yugoslavia to assist the Krajina?
15 A. It is not the Vance-Owen Plan. The Vance-Owen Plan was
16 applicable to Bosnia
17 was issued in May and June 1992, according to which fighting was stopped
18 in the Republic of Croatia
19 Serbs, and they were placed under the protection of -- of the United
20 Nations. Croats were not allowed to attack those pink zones, and Serbs
21 in the pink zones were not allowed to launched attacks on Croats.
22 The arms of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was
23 placed under the key and lock, and a copy of that key was held by the
24 United Nations or UNPROFOR.
25 Q. Was there a provision within that Vance Plan for Yugoslavia
1 assist the Krajina?
2 A. A guarantor of the Vance Plan for the Republic of Serbian Krajina
3 was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I believe that it was provided
4 for. If the Croats attacked one of those UNPROFOR protected areas, they
5 could use arms to put the situation right.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. JORDASH: Could I have, please, on the screen V000-2061, but
8 it's the transcript I'm looking for, not the video. 1561, please.
9 Q. I just want, if you would, Mr. Milovanovic, to read through this
10 transcript and see if you recognise the event and you recognise hearing
11 this item on the TV.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I get the impression that we are not on the same
13 page in English and B/C/S, or are we?
14 MR. JORDASH: I don't think we are, because the timings are
15 different at the top left.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there's music in the B/C/S, whereas there seems
17 to be no music in the English.
18 Try to find the right --
19 MR. JORDASH: I think if we move past the music to the line "This
20 morning the delegation ..."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now in B/C/S, because if you -- let me see.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. Mr. Witness, are you reading this? If you are, then just
24 indicate when you want the transcript to move.
25 A. I'm reading. Yes, I'm reading. I'm reading.
1 You can move the text now, please.
2 Q. I think the problem --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever the witness is reading, it seems that we do
4 not have the corresponding portions of English and B/C/S on our screen.
5 Did you want to start at 1:1:48? Is that where you wanted to start,
6 Mr. --
7 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's try to find that in B/C/S as well.
9 Otherwise, the witness reads for nothing.
10 Let's see where we are. What about page 35 in B/C/S,
11 Mr. Jordash? Would that be a good suggestion?
12 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
13 Q. Perhaps if you could read for 6 pages, Mr. Milovanovic.
14 A. I'm reading.
15 Can you move the text now, please.
16 MR. JORDASH: And the English one, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm done reading.
18 MR. JORDASH: And the English one. Could we go to page 2 of the
19 English one, please.
20 Q. I'm particularly interested, Mr. Milovanovic, at timings 1:41:04
21 where it -- and I'll read it:
22 "The Serbian Prime Minister Nikola Sainovic and Interior Minister
23 Zoran Sokolovic visited Bajina Basta today holding talks on the security
24 situation in this border belt area. On the north Dalmatian battle-field
25 of the offensive, the Croatian armed forces against Krajina positions
1 continues. In Budapest
3 can only be solved politically and not militarily."
4 A. I have none of that on the screen, whatever you have just read
6 Q. I'm going to shortcut this. I do apologise. Something has gone
7 wrong with our administration. Let me ask you this: Were you aware that
8 there were talks and a visit by Sainovic and Sokolovic to the
9 Bajina Basta region as a result of the fragile security of the border
10 following Naser Oric's attacks?
11 A. To be honest, I don't remember if I knew of it at the time.
12 However, a few days ago during the proofing session or maybe here in the
13 courtroom, I watched a documentary depicting Sainovic's and Sokolovic's
14 stay in Bajina Basta. They inspected a unit there, and that was a police
15 unit. Now I remember; that was during my proofing session with the
16 Prosecutor. And among all those people I saw military policemen with a
17 white belt. Somebody asked me about that policeman, how come that he was
18 there. I suppose that he was from the Uzice Corps providing security for
19 somebody or something.
20 So I can't say that I am not aware of that event, but I really
21 can't tell you whether I remembered -- remember it from the period of a
22 war, when it actually happened. And it happened sometime after the
23 21st of January, once the Skelani crisis, if I may call it so, was over.
24 Q. And from your experience, if Sokolovic, as the minister of the
25 interior of the Republic of Serbia
1 the security on the border, would you be surprised or would it be
2 perfectly normal for the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia to be
3 concerned with incursions into the border?
4 A. I'm sure that he was worried, but how come that only the minister
5 of the interior came and not the minister of defence? I don't know what
6 the situation is like in Serbia
7 time the border was controlled by the police of the Federal Republic
9 A few days ago we spoke about who manned the border crossing,
10 that there were police and customs. So it is normal that the minister of
11 the interior came there, because he's in charge of the police.
12 Q. And the same question in terms of the state security of Serbia
13 Would it surprise you in such a situation that the state security of
15 A. The state security of Serbia
16 territory of Serbia
17 they are, along the border or further inland.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
21 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
22 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Milovanovic, that as a consequence of the
23 attacks by Oric a decision was made by the Serbian leadership to mount
24 Operation Drina
25 A. I don't know whose operation that was, and what do you -- and
1 what do you mean by Serbian leadership? The leadership of the
2 Republic of Serbia
3 Q. Yes. That's what I -- that's what I meant. Let me simplify the
4 question. Had you -- have you heard of Operation Drina arising from
5 attacks by Naser Oric?
6 A. No. I haven't heard of the Drina
7 Podrinje '93 operation, which we prepared. Then there was Pesnica
8 operation, which translates as "fist." Then there is a Krivaja
9 operation, but I can't recall Drina
10 Operational Group that was called Drina
11 Kalinovik, Cajnice, Visegrad. I know that the Federal Republic
13 side. They were part of the Uzice Corps. As far as I know, the
14 commander of that Operational Group was General Sipcic, but that
15 Operational Group called Drina
16 but on the right bank of the Drina
17 prevent the repetition of these attacks from Bosnia.
18 Q. Okay. You spoke last week about being surprised about
19 Jovica Stanisic's knowledge of Klotijevac, which is close to Skelani.
20 Could you explain why you were surprised, given what was happening along
21 that border and the attacks on that border by Naser Oric? What was the
22 basis for your amazement, using your words?
23 A. I've already explained that. I was amazed because I had never
24 heard of that village until that time. And upon returning to the
25 Main Staff, I had great difficulty finding it on the map, but I did
1 eventually. So a person who wasn't from Bosnia-Herzegovina and knew the
2 geography of Bosnia-Herzegovina to such minute details, it was hardly
3 surprising that I was amazed.
4 Q. Were you aware that consequently as a result of the attacks by
5 Oric the public security of the Republic of Serbia
8 A. I don't know who was trained.
9 Q. Were you aware of training in Tara at that time of men who were
10 subsequently engaged in protecting the border?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Well, I'll leave that, then, for now.
13 MR. JORDASH: Can I just take instructions, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Jordash.
15 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I do not know what your instructions
18 are at this moment, but we're close to the time we would have a break.
19 And I have to deal with a few procedural matters. So to the extent that
20 fits into your instructions, that -- I don't know what --
21 MR. JORDASH: That fits. That's a natural break, Your Honour.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then since the first part should be dealt with
24 in private session -- Mr. Milovanovic, we'll have a break and we have to
25 deal with some practical matters that are unrelated to you, so I would
1 allow you already to follow the usher and leave the courtroom. We'll
2 resume in approximately half an hour.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: And could we move into private session.
5 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 MR. GROOME: There are no requests. The Prosecution does not
9 intend to request them. But given some of the unusual circumstances, we
10 wanted to proceed in case the Chamber felt differently.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam --
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 I put on the record that, in relation to Witness JF-049, that the
15 Defence was granted an extension of the deadline to respond until the
16 27th of April at 7.00 p.m.
17 Meanwhile, the Prosecution has requested permission to reply and
18 has replied, which under the present circumstances seems to be very
19 practical although should be the exception rather than the rule, but
20 under the present circumstances the Chamber does not oppose to this
21 practice being applied under those circumstances. The reason being that
22 the witness is in The Hague
23 of two months to start the testimony of this witness. We now know that
24 the Prosecution disagrees with that.
25 I don't think that we have received a response by the Stanisic --
1 Simatovic Defence. Did we receive a response?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We joined
3 Mr. Groome's motion, because that was the agreement, that Mr. Groome
4 should make that motion, and we -- sorry, not Mr. Groome. Mr. Knoops,
5 actually, and we joined.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's a common position taken by the two
7 Defence teams.
8 Now, in the response, there was objection against admission of a
9 new 92 ter statement. But there was another matter in the original
10 motion which was that leave be granted to amend the 65 ter exhibit list
11 by adding six exhibits attached. Is there any -- there was no response
12 to adding those to the 65 ter list, as no issue was raised in that
14 MR. JORDASH: We don't take a point on that, Your Honour, thank
16 JUDGE ORIE: You don't take a point on that.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The same here, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, adding documents to the 65 ter list is
19 not yet admission, Mr. Groome, but in that respect, the request is
21 We'll -- I'll further discussion with the other Judges the
22 request for a postponement of two months to start the
23 examination-in-chief of Witness JF-049.
24 Mr. Knoops.
25 MR. KNOOPS: Well, Your Honour, just an observation. The request
1 for postponement was a secondary request. The primary request was to
2 exclude the new statement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I earlier said that there was an
4 objection against admission of a new 92 ter statement, which was the
5 primary relief sought, and subsidiarily that a delay of two months would
6 be granted.
7 One of the matters that I would like to inquire with the Defence:
8 Is there anything in this new 92 ter statement which could not have been
9 elicited viva voce from the witness to say that it was more or less in
10 the context of the 65 ter summary of the witness, although giving --
11 that's for certain -- giving quite minimal details? Could that have been
12 elicited from the witness as staying within the boundaries of the
13 65 ter -- 65 ter summary?
14 MR. KNOOPS: Your Honour, an observation: On behalf of the
15 Stanisic Defence, in addition to the motion filed, we observed that there
16 was several new topics raised by the witness such as the paragraphs 40,
17 42, where he details the purported command structure of the JATD, which
18 was not included in the summary. The same as the alleged command
19 structure with Arkan units, paragraph 39, 46, of his supplementary
20 statement. Paragraph 47 detailing also the position of Legija. And
21 paragraph 65 where he goes into the alleged money stream of the JATD
22 through allegedly offshore company. I think these are just examples of
23 the many topics which were not included in the summary, and I think it's
24 not obvious that these topics were to be elicited during the
25 examination-in-chief, because that would go outside the boundaries of
1 the -- the summary.
2 And, by the way, it's also admission of Witness 049 himself, in
3 paragraph 2 of his supplementary statement, where he indirectly admits
4 that he's providing far more information than mentioned in his 2003
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He's giving far more -- certainly far more
7 details. That especially names have been ...
8 We'll consider the matter.
9 Before we continue --
10 Yes, Mr. Groome. Would you like to stay anything in response to
11 what Mr. Knoops just --
12 MR. GROOME: Not on this point, Your Honour, but I do have
13 another point that I would like to raise out of the witness's presence
14 before he returns.
15 JUDGE ORIE: For this witness?
16 MR. GROOME: For this particular witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I had on my mind to first --
18 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
20 support everything that Mr. Knoops said. He mentioned paragraph 65,
21 offshore companies and the funding of the JATD that is directly linked to
22 my client, as well as paragraph 66, which contains a serious
23 incrimination under our law, and all these are new allegations that were
24 not included in the previous statement. We must verify that in detail
25 and review it, but that is all along the lines of what Mr. Knoops had --
1 has already said and what can be found in the motions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was about to ask Mr. Jordash how much time
3 he would still need for cross-examination of the present witness.
4 MR. JORDASH: If at all possible, I'd like another hour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Which brings you -- yes, approximately at the upper
6 end of your estimate, and that would be the end of today's session.
7 Mr. Bakrac, who will -- how much -- or, Mr. Petrovic, how much
8 time you would need?
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to our
10 current estimate, we will need up to three hours. We'll try hard to be
11 briefer, but this is what we can say now. Of course, we have to hear
12 what our learned friend Mr. Jordash will say until he finishes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I think we received information from
14 Mr. Jordash, his original estimate. When did we -- did the Chamber
15 receive your estimate, Mr. Petrovic? Did you send it by e-mail, or did
16 you -- I think we invited you to give an estimate, to tell us how much
17 time you would approximately need.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I stated that orally,
19 Your Honours, and that I said two and a half hours then. I can check
20 during the break and give you more reliable information, but I think at
21 this moment that I gave you an oral statement to that effect toward the
22 end of the previous session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just have a -- one second, please.
24 What I see, Mr. Petrovic, is on last Friday's transcript that at
25 the very end that I said:
1 "The Defence is invited, if they have any further idea now having
2 heard the examination-in-chief and knowing what will follow on Wednesday,
3 to inform the Chamber about any assessment, any estimate, on the time
4 they would need for cross-examination," and we then adjourned.
5 So I don't remember that we have received any response to that
6 invitation. Whether there has been an earlier assessment, I do not know.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me, Your Honours, that
8 it was earlier, but now I can't remember either. I believe I spoke about
9 that, so with your leave I will check and try to find it during this
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we have -- of course, that was an
12 estimate asked knowing, then, exactly what the examination-in-chief
13 had -- had been. Now we have another perhaps little problem that for
14 92 ter witnesses the Chamber always has been -- well, I wouldn't use the
15 word "generous," but at least not too strict in time because that's part
16 of the 92 ter statement.
17 Now, apparently the two Defence teams want for a witness who gave
18 his testimony mainly viva voce, you would, nevertheless, almost ask --
19 coming close to the double of the time the Prosecution took, which is --
20 has there been any conversation between the two Defence teams on how to
21 deal with this viva voce witness?
22 MR. JORDASH: Well, hasn't -- well, there has been discussion,
23 and we discussed which subjects we were going to cover, and I think we've
24 tried to avoid duplication.
25 Could I also, though, put this before the Chamber, that there
1 is -- by agreeing -- by the Defence agreeing to having Milovanovic look
2 at documents outside of the courtroom and thereby shorten the time the
3 Prosecution took in the courtroom, we, in a sense, set ourselves up to
4 have less time to cross-examine. So --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, this was not a matter of
6 substance. This was -- I didn't hear any questions in cross-examination
7 about the authenticity of documents, and that seems to be the only part
8 of -- the only exercise that was requested from him out of court.
9 MR. JORDASH: Well, the Prosecution took the witness outside of
10 court through a huge number of documents relating to the intelligence
11 that Mr. Stanisic was receiving.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. JORDASH: I spent an hour dealing with that point as a
14 consequence of the Prosecution putting in documents without discussing
15 them in court with the point being powerfully, or at least on the face of
16 it, powerfully made and having to be dealt with in cross-examination.
17 That was the difficulty.
18 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time -- yes. Let's -- let's not --
19 we'll further think about the matter, and we'll have a break. And with
20 the indulgence of Mr. Stanisic, I'd like to start at five minutes past
21 6.00 and then at least to see whether we could finish, if not earlier,
22 and start the cross-examination by the Simatovic Defence, at least to
23 finish today Mr. Jordash.
24 We'll --
25 Yes, Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I will try to be brief, but I think it
2 is important that I raise this point with -- with the Chamber. It's in
3 relation to 90(H). The Defence on several occasions has suggested to
4 other witnesses that at least some of the crimes charged in the
5 indictment against Mr. Stanisic and Simatovic were in fact prepared and
6 perpetrated by members of the Army of the Republika Srpska. I would
7 refer the Chamber to transcript 3799, line 20, as an example of such. It
8 was taken in closed session, so I will not comment further now. Please
9 also see the examination of JF-005 at transcript 2897 to 2901 or JF-10 at
10 transcript 3799 to 3801.
11 Given that the Chief of the Main Staff of that army is now here
12 in court and is being questioned by the Defence and we are now to move
13 into the last session of cross-examination by the Stanisic Defence, it is
14 the Prosecution's position that 90(H)(ii) obliges the Defence to put to
15 General Milovanovic those crimes described in the indictment which they
16 allege was perpetrated by members of the Army of Republika Srpska and not
17 through the participation of Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Simatovic as alleged by
18 the Prosecution, if that is, in fact, their case.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is about a witness contradicting the case
20 of the examining party, isn't it, in cross-examination?
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Jordash, to the extent the witness
23 contradicts your case, you should put that case to the witness if you
24 cross-examine him under Rule 90(H) and not just covering, not just
25 challenging the evidence he has given on the questioning by the party
1 that called him.
2 Mr. Groome set out the rule. I can't say that at this moment I
3 have a clear view on whether at this moment any obligation arises under
4 Rule 90(H), although Mr. Groome thought at this moment that he should
5 bring this to your attention.
6 MR. JORDASH: My response to that would be twofold. Firstly, it
7 would have been more practical if the Prosecution had given notice of
8 this application. This is the first we've heard of it. And so I'm
9 thinking off the top of my head. But my preliminary response to that
10 would be that, as far as I understand it, the Rule 90(H) does not mandate
11 that I have to put my case to any -- every witness who might somehow be
12 able to say something about it. This is --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. That's not -- I think -- perhaps you
14 take the break. It's my understanding of Rule (H) to say that if you
15 examine a witness not challenging the examination by the party that
16 called him but since the witness is able to give support to your case,
17 that to the extent he contradicts your case, his evidence is
18 contradicting your case, that you put at least clearly to the witness
19 what your case is. But if it's contradicting your --
20 MR. JORDASH: So far --
21 JUDGE ORIE: If it --
22 MR. JORDASH: So --
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's, of course, now the issue, whether the
24 witness contradicted your case. Let's have, all, a look closer again at
25 Rule 90(H). I didn't even read it again, but that's what my recollection
1 tells me, Mr. Groome. And perhaps if you could briefly explain to
2 Mr. Jordash during the break where you would expect him to do what
3 exactly so that -- because he apparently is not --
4 MR. GROOME: I'll explain my point further, Your Honours, during
5 the break.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We will very a break, and we'll resume at ten
7 minutes past 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence. The
14 Simatovic Defence apologises. We spoke with each other, and we were
15 convinced that we also informed the Trial Chamber, but we didn't and I
16 apologise. And it is our estimate that we will need the time just as I
17 told you before the break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that observation, Mr. Petrovic.
19 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
20 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, may I just say, as far as the
21 obligations arises, we see them under 90(H), we shall put our case.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- you say you'll abide by the rules, and
23 that's what we expect everyone to do. Please proceed.
24 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
25 Could I have on e-court, please, 65 ter 577. This is slightly
1 out of turn, because I will return to the previous topic, but I want to
2 deal with this first.
3 Q. Would you please have a look at this exhibit, Mr. Milovanovic.
4 Is this document or the events it purports to describe familiar to you?
5 A. I don't know anything about this. I don't remember ever having
6 spoken to Tomislav Kovac about the arrest of deserters. I did speak to
7 Arkan. I suppose that that's the commander of the Tigers. Yes. I can
8 see now Zeljko Raznjatovic. However, we did not discuss this particular
9 matter. As I already told you on Friday, we discussed the matter of him
10 being chased away from the territory of the Republika Srpska by myself
11 and General Mladic. I don't remember ever having spoken to anybody about
12 the arrest of deserters. And the date here, as I can see, is --
13 Q. I'm sorry, the date here is?
14 A. The date is the 11th of October, 1995, and a month before that
15 Arkan was chased away from our territory.
16 Q. Let me just ask you this then: Did you have -- let me strike
18 Was there a problem with deserters from the front in the
19 territory of the Prijedor CJB at this time or thereabouts?
20 A. There was a problem with the -- there was no problem with the
21 deserters from the Republika Srpska Army. Those were final operations,
22 and the combatants did not desert. But we did have problems with the
23 combatants of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, which practically
24 disappeared in August 1995, and nobody organised the withdrawal of those
1 Q. I've got 35 minutes left, so I'm going to have to cut you off,
2 and I do apologise for being rude.
3 A. [In English] Okay. Okay.
4 MR. JORDASH: May I apply to tender this exhibit, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D40, Your Honours.
8 MR. JORDASH: Oh, I beg your pardon. It's already an
9 exhibit, D28.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D28, if it's that already, then we vacate D40. Is
11 it with the same translation, because it seems that the name of this
12 witness, which in the original is Milovanovic, seems to be abbreviated to
13 Milanovic in my translation on my screen now.
14 MR. JORDASH: May I check that and inform the Court later?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
17 Q. Now, I want to return quickly and move quickly, Mr. Milovanovic,
18 to the subject we were dealing with before. You talked about a meeting
19 which involved Stanisic, Badza, Panic, and Mladic at the Hotel Omorika on
20 the 23rd of January, 1993. Can you confirm that Stanisic and Badza had
21 arrived from Bajina Basta and from Bajina Basta had come to Tara? Do you
22 know that?
23 A. [Interpretation] Firstly, General Mladic was not in attendance at
24 that meeting. He was in Geneva
25 Secondly, I don't know how come Mr. Stanisic was at Tara in
1 Omorika Hotel. I don't know whether he arrived with Panic by helicopter
2 or in another way, and I really don't know where he came from. I don't
3 have a clue.
4 Q. Were you aware that Sokolovic, the minister, had been present
5 earlier with Stanisic and Badza in Bajina Basta?
6 A. I didn't know that. I actually saw Sokolovic only once at a
7 meeting in December, on the 13 of December, 1993, in Belgrade, and that's
8 the only time I saw him.
9 Q. Thank you. When you heard Badza make the comment, "I arrived
10 here with my boss," Stanisic was sitting very close to him, wasn't he?
11 A. There were four of us at -- sitting at a small table. I believe
12 that we were in the lobby of the Omorika Hotel, and since there were four
13 of us, two of us had to sit next to each other. I don't know where Badza
14 was sitting in relation to Mr. Panisic [as interpreted].
15 Q. They were within feet of each other, weren't they? "Yes" or "No"
16 will do, I think.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when Badza said, "I arrived here with my boss," in no way did
19 he gesture towards Stanisic, did he? Which you might have expected, I
20 would suggest, if he was referring to Stanisic.
21 A. Sir, I was asked the same thing on Friday. After 17 years, it's
22 very difficult to remember people's gestures or facial expressions.
23 As far as I can remember, he did not point in Stanisic's
24 direction, but I really don't know whether that is relevant at this
25 moment, whether he pointed at him or not. He said, "I arrived with my
1 boss," and that was enough for me. I didn't even know who his boss was.
2 Q. Thank you. Were you aware that Badza at that point was the
3 deputy minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia
4 suggest, which was higher than Mr. Stanisic's?
5 A. I didn't know that at the time. I only learnt that subsequently,
6 much later, that Badza was the deputy minister of the interior of the
7 Republic of Serbia
8 Q. Sorry, just to be clear, you learnt that he was the deputy
9 minister of the interior in January 1993, and you learnt that information
10 later; is that what you're saying? I want to establish when it was that
11 you -- I mean -- let me rephrase that.
12 How long after did you find out that Badza was the deputy
14 A. I don't know when. Perhaps even on that very evening when I
15 arrived at the Main Staff, when I described Jovica Stanisic for them I
16 didn't know who he was. Let me not repeat how I described
17 Jovica Stanisic. And then either Tolimir or Beara told me, "Well, that
18 was Jovica Stanisic, the head of the state security of Serbia." And then
19 when I --
20 Q. Sorry. Can I just --
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would ask that the witness be allowed
22 to finish that answer.
23 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
24 Q. Please do, Mr. Witness.
25 A. And then on that very evening I learned that Badza was in charge
1 of special units of the Serb police.
2 Q. And the special units of the Republika Srpska Ministry of
3 Interior fell under the public security, didn't they?
4 A. No. As far as I can remember, we had two Special Police
5 brigades, and they were under the authority of the Ministry of the
6 Interior, but not as bodies of public security. But I don't even know
7 what Special Police Units are used for. I know what we use them for in
8 war time, but in peacetime I don't know what their purpose is.
9 Q. Fair enough. I don't wish to ask you about that.
10 But I do want to ask you about one thing, and I don't want to
11 embarrass anyone, but you thought at that meeting on the 23rd of January,
12 1993, that Stanisic was a waiter, didn't you?
13 A. Yes. I beg Stanisic's pardon, but that's what I thought. He was
14 well dressed, he was very polite, he was well mannered, he was
15 well-groomed. I thought he was a waiter.
16 Q. Thank you. Let me now move on. Could you explain, if you can
17 remember, what Operation Udar was that we talked about last week?
18 A. Operation Udar was an operation undertaken by our army which
19 concerned the battle against Naser Oric and placing under the Serb
20 control of the area that I showed on the map earlier today.
21 Q. Are you able to confirm that Jovica Stanisic had no role in that
22 operation other than to provide intelligence assessments?
23 A. I never saw Jovica Stanisic during that operation. I don't even
24 remember that I heard anything about him or in relation to him during
25 that operation.
1 Q. I mean, it's a long time ago, but your best recollection is that
2 his name didn't come up during the discussions?
3 A. No, it did not.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Now, I want to move on to the last subject I think I'm going to
6 deal with, which is operation -- actually, it's the second to last
7 subject, Operation Pauk.
8 Are you able to just give the Trial Chamber a short, short
9 summary on the background, as you understood it, to Operation Pauk, the
10 military and humanitarian background to Operation Pauk? Start with the
11 military, please.
12 A. I can't say anything about the humanitarian part of that because
13 I don't know. As far as the military part is concerned, I know that that
14 was a joint operation by the Serbian Army of Krajina -- or, rather, the
15 Republic of Serbian Krajina and the forces under the command of
16 Fikret Abdic. They joined forces in order to liquidate or to defeat the
17 5th Corps of the so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I know
18 that the person in command was General Mile Novakovic, who had previously
19 been removed from the position as commander of the Main Staff of the
20 Army of Serbian Krajina. He was too young to be pensioned off;
21 therefore, he was appointed the advisor for national security to
22 President Martic.
23 When the Operation Pauk was launched, and it was launched around
24 the time when I launched a counter-attack in the direction of Bihac with
25 the forces of the Army of Republika Srpska, that was in November, that
1 was the time when I first heard about the future operation. It was a
2 future operation at the time, on the 8th of November, 1994.
3 Q. Let me stop you there. Let's just deal with what was happening
4 before the future operation, before Operation Pauk. Was there an
5 involvement of the VRS in the Muslim conflict?
6 A. Before Operation Pauk?
7 Q. Well, you've just spoken about a future operation, but you talked
8 about a counter-attack in the direction of Bihac before that future
9 operation. Could you explain the counter-operation -- the
10 counter-attack? I beg your pardon.
11 A. Yes, I can. Shall I start?
12 Q. Yes, please.
13 A. Okay. Here we go. On the 19th, the 20th, and the
14 21st of August, 1994, the 5th Corps of the so-called Army of Bosnia and
16 Autonomous Province of West Bosnia, i.e., Fikret Abdic. Abdic had about
17 10- to 12.000 combatants who were all defeated. That was an internal
18 inter-Muslim conflict. It was not an ethnic or a religious conflict. It
19 was an internal conflict or typical civil war. And after that --
20 Q. Can I just pause you there. As a consequence of Fikret Abdic's
21 army being defeated, what happened -- were there any refugees?
22 A. As far as I know, and as far as I read in the intelligence, some
23 72.000 people who were supporters of Fikret Abdic were exiled from that
24 area and enclosed in two camps, one in Batnoge in the Bihac region, and
25 the other one was somewhere in the north in the territory of Croatia
1 either south of Cicak or south of Karlovac. I'm not sure.
2 Fikret's autonomous province thus ceased to exist. The new
3 commander of the 5th Corps, Atif Dudakovic, was encouraged by that
4 success, and he launched an attack against Republika Srpska in the
5 territory stretching from Krupa on the River Una upstream to Bihac and
6 from Bihac again upstream to Kula and Vakuf.
7 Over the seven days of combat, from the 23rd of October to the
8 30th of October, he managed to occupy some 250 square kilometres of the
9 territory of Republika Srpska. In practical terms, he occupied Mount
10 Grmec and all the villages at the foot of Mount Grmec
11 Q. Sorry. Could I stop you there a moment. Is it correct that
12 Alija Izetbegovic quenched Fikret Abdic's rebellion and as a consequence
13 imprisoned 70.000 Muslims in two camps? These were 70.000 civilians in
14 the main in two camps.
15 A. What are you asking me? You're asking me if something is
16 correct? You mentioned Alija Izetbegovic. You mentioned the camps. Are
17 you asking me whether it is true that Alija Izetbegovic issued that order
18 or what?
19 Q. I'm asking you whether Alija Izetbegovic imprisoned 70.000
20 civilians in two camps, having defeated Fikret Abdic.
21 A. No, it wasn't Alija Izetbegovic who did that. It was
22 General Atif Dudakovic who did that. And it was Alija Izetbegovic who
23 issued an order to him to quench the rebellion in blood because he
24 considered Fikret Abdic a rebel.
25 Q. The man you've just mentioned, Atif Dudakovic, was the commander
1 of the 5th Corps acting under Izetbegovic's direction; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you yourself were sufficiently concerned about the
4 5th Corps's treatment of civilians that you suggested to Mladic that you
5 should file charges against him for crimes against civilians; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, can I just ask you to return to your narrative. I'm sorry
9 to interrupt.
10 A. Okay. Let me finish that first. That proposal was turned down
11 with an explanation along the lines, We should not get involved in their
12 business, in their showdown. But the real reason was the fact that the
13 Republika Srpska had not recognised The Hague Tribunal at the moment when
14 it was set up pursuant to Resolution 817. So if we were to sue Dudakovic
15 for war crimes, that would have implied that we recognised the Tribunal.
16 And now let me go back to the narrative.
17 When Dudakovic did what he did --
18 Q. Sorry to interrupt. Just remember what you're saying is being
19 translated, so just remember to pause. Go ahead. Sorry.
20 A. [In English] Okay. [Interpretation] When Atif Dudakovic and his
21 corps did what they did, what ensued was a breakdown in our
22 2nd Krajina Corps. That corps, from the moment of its establishment up
23 to then, had not been involved in any major combat. What they were
24 involved in was, rather, a trench war which lasted for two and a half
25 years up to then. And that corps was simply entrenched on the right bank
1 of the Una and waited there.
2 I suppose that by that time both the command cadre and the troops
3 had become very relaxed, and that's how Dudakovic managed to do what he
4 did in the space of only seven days.
5 The Supreme Command of Republika Srpska appointed me and ordered
6 me to go to Mount Grmec
7 knew what was going on, I asked from the supreme commander to allow me to
8 do something, since they were sending me there. The implication was that
9 I should try and return the lost territory.
10 Q. Sorry to interrupt. What -- had the 5th Corps taken 250 square
11 kilometres of Serbian territory?
12 A. Yes. The 5th Muslim Corps of the so-called Army of the Republic
13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina commanded by Atif Dudakovic.
14 Q. Okay. Go ahead. Sorry to interrupt again.
15 A. My requests to the supreme commander were about the following:
16 First, until the time when I get to Grmec, declare the state of war at
17 least in that area for me to be able to deal with the deserters from the
18 2nd Krajina Corps. Before that, the corps was about 14.500 strong. And
19 I only found some 6500 organised combatants.
20 Q. Did the --
21 A. That was done when I arrived at Grmec. The state of war was in
22 effect in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps. I employed the
23 military school centre as an operational reserve of the Main Staff and
24 introduced them into combat on the 30th of October.
25 Q. What was the objective of the combat from the perspective of the
2 A. You mean the objective of the counter-strike.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. The objective was to take the lost territory again, to take
5 possession of it.
6 Q. The military objective; is that correct?
7 A. The military objective or the objective of the operation. Later,
8 I termed it "Stit 94," Shield 94.
9 Q. What about Suckin [phoen]? Was it a successful military
11 A. It was successful. We were able to return the lost territory
12 within 57 days.
13 Q. And at what point in time was that? When did it succeed?
14 A. I launched the counter-strike on the 3rd of November, and it was
15 completed in 57 days.
16 Q. November of which year?
17 A. 1994.
18 Q. And what happened after that? Was there a further operation?
19 A. After that, as far as the VRS is concerned, with the assistance
20 of Jimmy Carter, the former US
21 between us and the so-called Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and we --
22 both sides started going about our own business on -- in our respective
23 territories. But we don't seem to be getting to Operation Pauk. I
24 started, but you interrupted me.
25 On the 8th of November, 1994 --
1 Q. Please continue.
2 A. I was invited by Milan Martic, the president of the Republic of
3 Serbian Krajina, and I must say that he cheated me. He asked me to come
4 to Bosanski Petrovac so that he could talk to me, and I said that it was
5 difficult for me to get there in a vehicle because I would have to come
6 over Mount Grmec
7 there by helicopter because there was a flight ban pursuant to
8 Resolution 816 of the UN Security Council. He said, I'll send you a
9 white helicopter. Which was probably given to him by UNPROFOR to use.
10 I agreed, but as the helicopter was a different model than the
11 ones that we were using, so I took a look at it.
12 Q. Sorry, could I cut you short. Martic tricked you into attending,
13 is that right, attending a meeting?
14 A. Yes. He tricked me because the pilot didn't take me to Petrovac.
15 He took me to Plitvice instead -- or, to be more precise, to the Slunj
16 range where there was some kind of forward command post of his supreme
18 Q. Forward command post for what?
19 A. Of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the
20 Republic of Serbian
21 Q. Please, I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Witness, and I would really
22 like if you could explain to the Chamber what Operation Pauk was designed
23 to do. What was the military objectives behind Operation Pauk?
24 A. The objective of Operation Pauk, as I understood it to be on that
25 8th of November, was that Fikret Abdic should have his comeback in the
1 Bihac region.
2 The second objective was the destruction of the 5th Corps so that
3 Fikret Abdic could establish control over the entire Cazin area, the
4 Cazin Krajina.
5 Q. And was part of that objective to allow refugees who'd - excuse
6 me - who'd gathered in the Kordun region to return home to the Bihac
8 A. The refugees had already been returned pursuant to a decision of
9 the UNPROFOR.
10 Q. Was Operation Pauk successful?
11 A. I apologise, but you're not letting me say what I want to in
12 order to avoid these follow-up questions.
13 Q. Mr. Milovanovic, you've got seven minutes. I'd been happy if
14 you'd explain as much relevant detail as you can of the military
15 Operation Pauk, please. I'll try not to interrupt.
16 A. All right. Well, in that room, I found 11 officers with their
17 boss, Fikret Abdic. There was also the supreme commander of the armed
18 forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, Mr. Martic, and of the other
19 people I knew, I also saw the commander of the Serbian Army of the
20 Krajina, General Celeketic. I saw Jovica Stanisic, but he meant nothing
21 to me then. I don't know what they had been discussing before.
22 When I entered the room, I don't even remember welcoming or
23 saying hello to anyone. I immediately spoke to Martic, criticising me
24 why he had tricked me.
25 The commander of the Serb army, Mr. Celeketic, then explained to
1 me why I had been brought there. The Serb army of the Krajina wanted to
2 resuscitate Fikret Abdic's army, and for that purpose I was supposed to
3 give them 6.000 barrels, and Celeketic would give them 5.000, and that I
4 was supposed to launch an offensive toward Bihac with my forces. I
5 replied that I was not authorised by my Supreme Command or the commander
6 of the Main Staff to negotiate with Martic's command at all, and
7 especially not with Fikret Abdic. I didn't even say hello to
8 Fikret Abdic on that occasion. I said that I wouldn't give them any
9 weapons, because I had said as much to Karadzic on the
10 23rd of October, 1993, the day after he had signed the agreement on
11 permanent peace with Fikret Abdic. And he wanted the army to give
12 weapons to Fikret Abdic, and I said okay, but only what the government of
13 the RS had provided to the RS, which means, in other words, nothing.
14 As for my offensive toward Bihac, I said that it was in progress
15 and that I had come about halfway, as far as the Una. Spasovo had
16 already been taken; the old name of that place was Kulen Vakuf. We were
17 able to defend Krupa on the Una, so it was possible for me to advance
18 towards Bihac from Krupa and turn Kulen Vakuf into tongs, which is the
19 dream of any general. That was the strategy. But I couldn't promise
20 them any other co-ordinated action because I had no authority. I asked
21 Martic to give orders for the helicopter to take me back, and that's what
23 After that, Operation Pauk followed. I know that the Serbs from
24 the Republic of Serbian Krajina were advancing along the axis of
25 Trzaska Rastela-Cazin. That was a long axis. And Fikret Abdic had
1 received the assignment to re-establish his lost authority, his
2 government. And the activities continued in the following year, and I
3 believe it went on until the end of the war. The 5th Corps was not
4 defeated. Fikret Abdic fell through once again, and those were the --
5 that was the outcome of Operation Pauk.
6 Q. Thank you. From what you've said, can you confirm that this
7 operation had nothing to do with forcible transfer of civilians? Its
8 objectives were purely military, regaining territory?
9 A. I believe that there was no violence against civilians. Only
10 Dudakovic misused the civilians. He brought population from the
11 surrounding villages into Bihac, but he did that while I was attacking
12 him. So there were 100.000 -- 180.000 people in Bihac. I don't know how
13 large it was before the war. He turned Bihac into a military target
14 because that's where his forces were resting, but he was actually using
15 civilians as a human shield because we couldn't shell Bihac because of
17 Q. And you didn't shell Bihac because of that; is that correct?
18 A. The VRS has never shelled Bihac. That was an order that we
19 received from the Supreme Command, that we mustn't use larger calibre
20 weapons than 12.7 millimetres to target Bihac. And in every order of
21 mine, there is the sentence, "I forbid the use of larger calibre weapons
22 than 12.7 millimetres to attack Bihac."
23 MR. JORDASH: Can I ask two more questions, Your Honour, then I'm
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's not my time, primarily, that you're stealing,
1 but from all those who are assisting us.
2 MR. JORDASH: I'll be extremely quick.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And I'll be blamed for it. Two short questions.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. When you met Stanisic, Jovica Stanisic, he meant nothing to you,
6 and you didn't know what role he was playing in the Pauk operation. Is
7 that fair?
8 A. Between my first encounter with Jovica Stanisic and the launch of
9 Operation Pauk, much time elapsed, almost three years. So I hope that
10 Mr. Stanisic will not mind me saying that during that period he meant
11 nothing at all to me.
12 Q. And when you met him, when you were being requested to be the
13 commander of Pauk, you didn't know what role, if any, he was playing in
14 Pauk; is that correct?
15 A. I didn't know that he had any role at all in that operation. I
16 thought he had been sent from Belgrade
17 spoke about that already.
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you very much. No further questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
20 Before we adjourn, I already instruct you, Mr. Milovanovic, that
21 you should not speak with anyone about your testimony or communicate in
22 any other way about testimony already given or still to be given, and
23 we'd like to see you back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
24 Madam Usher will now escort you out of the courtroom so that I
25 have one more second to deal with another matter.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I get some approximate
2 information as to the duration of my stay here?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will try to finish your testimony tomorrow.
4 That's what, really, we want to do. Now, as far as travelling back,
5 whether a flight can be found for you in time, that may cause a problem.
6 As you are aware, European air traffic is quite a bit disturbed and we
7 are still suffering. So we try to finish your testimony tomorrow, and
8 I'll urge the parties that it should be done. But I'm not in charge of
9 the travel arrangements. What I do know is that the Victims and
10 Witnesses Section always try to get people home again as soon as they
11 can, but I can't give you any guarantees at this moment.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you, and I
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like to make a few observations in
16 relation to the next witness. Comparing the new 92 ter statements with
17 the old ones and with the 65 ter summary, we find that sometimes it's
18 just explaining, giving further details, but very much more of the same.
19 Sometimes, however, matters appear to be quite new.
20 Mr. Groome, correct me when I'm wrong. I had not prepared for
21 that witness for today, but, for example, the financing from Cyprus
22 restaurants is not something that rang a bell to me. That's -- paragraph
23 65 seems to be entirely knew to me or -- is that correct, or have I
24 overlooked something?
25 MR. GROOME: No, you haven't, Your Honour. That's something --
1 mentioned to the witness. The Prosecution will not rely on it and may
2 not even ask about, Your Honour, if the Chamber --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the Defence has to prepare for it if you
4 want it to be in evidence, isn't it? Well, some areas also seem to be
5 very easy to verify, sometimes could even be in the direct knowledge of
6 the accused so that they could instruct counsel; whereas for other areas
7 it might be -- well, quite burdensome to explore. Sometimes it's also a
8 mixture. If we're talking about licence plates, it could well be that I
9 have some knowledge about licence plates in my environment, but, of
10 course, you may want to verify that in further detail. So sometimes it
11 is a mixture of easy and perhaps cumbersome. Sometimes the information
12 given is quite trivial, whereas other information seems to have a higher
13 level of -- of relevance.
14 Now, the Chamber has not made up its mind yet, but, for example,
15 if you say, "I'm not going to rely on the Cyprus restaurants," why not
16 then redact it? So for the -- for the Defence to know that they don't
17 have to pay attention to it and have not to further explore the names of
18 those restaurants, whether they were owned, whether the money came from
19 there, whether the sources - it's all hearsay - whether they're reliable
20 or not. So that's one option.
21 Another option would be to gain a bit of additional time, and
22 let's say to start on a Wednesday rather than on Monday. That's an
23 option which gives at least some additional time to -- to prepare. Of
24 course, there's another option for the Prosecution to postpone, but that
25 requires then that you'd have witnesses available either on Monday or on
2 We're trying to consider all this. It seems as the Prosecution
3 may oversimplify matters at this moment, whereas the Defence here may
4 overdramatise matters. The Chamber at this moment certainly is not at a
5 point that they would decide not to admit. The Chamber is certainly not
6 granting two more months to prepare, and we'll think it over, perhaps
7 further discuss it tomorrow, and invite, meanwhile, the parties, whether
8 by redacting, by agreeing on what's really very relevant and what is
9 rather trivial -- I mean, if we are talking dramatically about - what was
10 is? - 28 pages -- well, part of those 28 pages are taken by -- I
11 recognise this as a per diem list, et cetera. That's, of course, not as
12 dramatic new information that the witness recognises these as per diem
13 lists and then says, "I see these in these names which --" so, therefore,
14 I would urge the parties to see whether they could come to any
15 conclusion. Of course, otherwise the Chamber will decide.
16 You know what is on our mind at this moment. You also know that
17 there seems to be a tendency of overdramatising and oversimplifying. If
18 you get that out of the way, if you would come with a solution which
19 would fit the parties, the Chamber will seriously consider to follow
20 that. The approaches adopted until now have not yet convinced the
21 Chamber that we could either choose the first, the primary option, or the
22 second one.
23 Mr. Groome.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I also ask the Court to consider
25 that - Mr. Weber was scheduled to do this -- to lead this evidence and
1 finds himself in somewhat unusual personal circumstances - that the
2 Chamber also consider the option of allowing the Prosecution to lead as
3 much evidence as possible and then with a view towards, if the Chamber
4 wishes, to grant some time for cross -- additional time to prepare for
5 cross-examination for new information that we simply bifurcate the
6 examination of the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider that, but let's put matters
8 simple. Some matters are better to be foreseen well in advance, as
9 others are. Now, to in any way jeopardise the position of the Defence
10 where perhaps for quite a number of months the personal circumstances of
11 Mr. Weber could have been foreseen is not something which is first on our
12 mind. Yes?
13 We adjourn. I thank all those who have, again, assisted us. And
14 we'll resume tomorrow, the 29th of April, quarter past 2.00 in this same
15 courtroom, II.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.
17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day
18 of April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.