Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4549

 1                           Thursday, 29 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  We started a bit late.

 7     To be quite honest, I do not know the reasons myself.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

10             Good afternoon, everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             Mr. Jordash, you have finished your cross-examination, which

15     means that now Mr. Petrovic, you're ready to start.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

18     Mr. Petrovic.  Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

19             Please proceed.

20                           WITNESS:  MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   Yesterday in your testimony you mentioned that in October 1993 an

Page 4550

 1     agreement was signed between Abdic and Radovan Karadzic.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a document in

 3     front of me, but it is only in English unfortunately.  It's 65 ter 2D99.

 4     It's the text of the said agreement, and since it is available only in

 5     English and the translation service was not willing to translate it since

 6     this is already in one of the official languages of the Tribunal, I would

 7     like to read out some brief passages to show whether or not this is the

 8     agreement the General spoke about yesterday.

 9             Could we please put 2D99 on our screens.

10        Q.   General, I'm about to read some excerpts with the leave of the

11     Chamber, and then please tell us whether this is what you were mentioning

12     yesterday.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I proceed?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, but this English version tells us

15     that it is a translation of the original.  So therefore I'm a bit

16     surprised that the original would not be available.  I'm even a bit

17     surprised that you offered the document for translation, where it must be

18     clear that there must be a B/C/S original.  But apart from that, and also

19     looking at the Prosecution whether they have any original in their

20     possession, let me see -- I would have called extension 2456 is -- if I

21     was seeking the original.  Because it reads:

22             "Translation from the Serbian language original by

23     Bruno Ogorelec, Media Analysis Unit, PTO extension 2456."

24             I would have called him to see whether there would be an original

25     somewhere.

Page 4551

 1             Mr. Petrovic, this is not a level of inventivity which I thought

 2     you would not have available to yourself, isn't it?  Let's proceed.  And

 3     if someone calls 2456.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can provide a very

 5     brief explanation.  We offered this document to the translation service

 6     because we found it only in this English version, and we offered it to

 7     the translation service.  And if I'm not mistaken their reply was that

 8     this is a document in one of the official languages of the Tribunal, that

 9     they cannot translate it.  Of course this is a translation, since Abdic,

10     Karadzic, and Milosevic struck this agreement in Serbian or Bosnia.  But

11     in order to -- not to waste time, let me try to --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue I'm raising, why to seek a B/C/S

13     translation if there must be an original B/C/S version; rather look for

14     the original.  That is what my message was, and let's now proceed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   General, the introduction of the document reads:

17             [In English] "At the invitation of the President of the

18     Republic of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic, and motivated by the goal of

19     securing a durable peace between the Serbs and Muslims in the area of the

20     former Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the President of

21     Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic; and the President of

22     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia of the Republic of Bosnia,

23     Fikret Abdic, have met in Belgrade and decided to propose, jointly, with

24     the involvement of the President of the Republic of Serbia,

25     Slobodan Milosevic, the following declaration:

Page 4552

 1             "The Republika Srpska recognises the existence, the will of

 2     people, and the legality of the Autonomous Province of the Western Bosnia

 3     of the Republic of Bosnia, one of three constituent republics of the

 4     Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as defined by the Owen and

 5     Stoltenberg Peace Plan."

 6             [Interpretation] Item 3:

 7             [In English] "Presidents Radovan Karadzic and Fikret Abdic, in

 8     the name of their citizens and governments, solemnly proclaim the peace,

 9     and declare the start of the building of good neighbourly relations and

10     universal co-operation in the fields of politics, economy, traffic,

11     communications, culture, sports, and other fields."

12             [Interpretation] And finally item 12.

13             Could we please have the relevant page displayed.

14             [Previous translation continues]... [In English] In e-court

15     under 12:

16             "Presidents Radovan Karadzic and Fikret Abdic expresses their

17     gratitude to the President of the Republic of Serbia, Slobodan Milosevic,

18     for the great contribution he has given to the arrangement of the just

19     and durable peace between the Republic of Srpska and the

20     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia ...

21             "In Belgrade, 22 October 1993."

22             Signed by Radovan Karadzic, Fikret Abdic, and Slobodan Milosevic.

23             [Interpretation] General, my question is:  Is this the text of

24     the agreement that you mentioned in your testimony yesterday, if I'm not

25     mistaken, or on Friday?

Page 4553

 1        A.   I have never seen this text of the agreement so far.  I learned

 2     from the Daily Press in the evening of the 22nd of October, I think, that

 3     this agreement was signed.  My -- I wasn't -- I didn't favour that

 4     agreement at the time.

 5        Q.   But, General, does what I have read out correspond to your

 6     knowledge of the contents of this agreement between the two sides that

 7     was struck in the presence of the third side?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  General, do the various duties of governmental bodies

10     of the RS, including the VRS, stem from this agreement, and I'm referring

11     to the duties toward the autonomous province of Western Bosnia?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he has

14     started saying.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- one second, one second.  Could you

16     re-start your answer, because the interpreters could not hear you.

17             Do I have to repeat the question to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not necessary.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then would you please re-start.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the following day, the -- a

21     meeting of the Supreme Command of the Republika Srpska was called.  Only

22     I was invited from the Main Staff.  Among the other matters that were

23     discussed at that meeting, I put forward a question about this agreement

24     because this agreement was called an agreement on permanent peace in the

25     media, a peace between the Muslims and Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 4554

 1     And I asked Karadzic, "How could you forget Alija Izetbegovic?  Fikret

 2     Abdic cannot guarantee peace in all of Bosnia and Herzegovina between all

 3     Muslims and all Serbs."  However, Karadzic said to me, "General, this

 4     isn't really our business, but this agreement isn't harmful to

 5     Republika Srpska, and Slobodan Milosevic likes it."  So I didn't want to

 6     lose Yugoslavia as an ally or Serbia and this agreement with Abdic

 7     doesn't cost us a thing.

 8        Q.   Thank you, General.

 9        A.   Excuse me, I haven't finished.  In this agreement, the VRS should

10     have given some of its weapons to the newly established army of

11     Fikret Abdic.  That's what was put to us, and I refused that.  I said

12     that the VRS could give only those weapons that were received from the

13     government of the RS but none of the weapons that we procured ourselves.

14     And eventually that didn't happen.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

17     this document as a Defence exhibit, and we will try to procure the

18     Serbian version in the way that you suggested we should.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that it be

20     marked for identification.  Now Mr. Laugel is attempting to investigate

21     whether there is an original and hopefully we'll have some more word in a

22     short.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Mr. Registrar, would you assign a number to have it marked for

25     identification.

Page 4555

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The document shall be admitted

 2     as Exhibit D00040, marked for identification.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D40 is marked for identification.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             Could we please see document 65 ter 4167 on our screens.

 7        Q.   General, do you know this document that we can see now?

 8        A.   Just a minute.  Let me see what this is.  Yes, directive number 6

 9     of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Thank you, General.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please display the last

12     page of this document.

13        Q.   This is a directive which was issued by the supreme commander

14     Radovan Karadzic, and it was drafted by Colonel Radivoje Miletic;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show item 5 of this

19     directive to the witness.  In the Serbian version it's on page 4 and in

20     the English version -- actually, it's page 4 in both linguistic versions,

21     item 5.

22        Q.   General, in item 5 we can read the tasks of the 2nd Krajina Corps

23     as set out by this directive; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   My question is whether this directive defines the tasks of the

Page 4556

 1     VRS, namely, to provide assistance to the forces of Fikret Abdic in the

 2     western part of the front, to achieve the goal of establishing autonomy,

 3     and in co-operation with the Serbian army of the Krajina?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at page 5 in the

 7     Serbian, but in English we needn't turn the page.  It can be seen on this

 8     page.

 9        Q.   The task of the 1st Krajina Corps.

10        A.   Could we zoom in.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the upper half of page 5 be

12     blown up for the General, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is fine.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Have you seen it, General?

16        A.   Just a moment.  All right.

17        Q.   Is it true that the task of the 1st Krajina Corps was to act in

18     co-ordination with the 2nd Krajina Corps in the establishment of the

19     autonomous province of Western Bosnia, as we see in this directive?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you please explain to us -- or I take back this one.

22             The tasks as set out in this directive, do they mean the

23     elimination and the destruction, by combat, of course, of the so-called

24     5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was there in that

25     area?

Page 4557

 1        A.   Since the corps were established, that has always been the goal

 2     of the VRS.  Later on the Serbian army of the Krajina joined in to abet

 3     our efforts and the forces of Fikret Abdic also.  It was all along the

 4     lines of that saying:  The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 5        Q.   Tell us, what was the significance of the 5th Corps for the

 6     Serbian army in Krajina and the VRS?

 7        A.   I couldn't comment about the Serbian army of the Krajina, but the

 8     elimination of the 5th Corps of the ABiH would be -- would mean the

 9     removal of a threat to the north-west part of Bosnia.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

11     this document into evidence.

12             MR. GROOME:  No -- no objection, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It's admitted as Exhibit D00041.  Thank you,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's admitted by our decision as D41.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19             Could the Court please produce P389.  Could we please have page 2

20     in the Serbian and the last page in the English translation.

21        Q.   General, is this your document, a document that you drafted?

22        A.   This document was sent via teleprinter without a signature, but I

23     do believe it's mine.

24        Q.   Thank you, General.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have the first page

Page 4558

 1     back, the first page of the document.

 2        Q.   General, in the first paragraph of this document, and you see it

 3     before you, it says that the Chief of Staff and the chief of security

 4     organs of the 21st Corps of the Army of Republic of Serbian Krajina had

 5     contact with Fikret Abdic.  Is this the Chief of Staff of the 21st Corps

 6     of the Army of Krajina or yourself?  I'm not clear.

 7        A.   The Chief of Staff and the chief of security organs of the

 8     21st Corps, of the Kordun Corps.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please slow down and try and

11     not to overlap.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In the second paragraph --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, you're invited to wait until the

15     translation has finished and not to overlap with Mr. Petrovic and to

16     speak relatively slowly so that we will not miss one word through the

17     interpretation.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   General, could you please look at the second paragraph of the

21     same report.

22        A.   Which starts with the words:  "At this meeting ..."?

23        Q.   Yes.

24             Can I put my question to you?

25        A.   Just bear with me for a second, please.

Page 4559

 1             Go ahead.

 2        Q.   My question is this:  Why was it important for Fikret Abdic to be

 3     informed about the planned offensive actions of the 2nd Krajina Corps?

 4        A.   I suppose that he should have started the same time.  He had his

 5     own plans to launch an offensive against the 5th Corps.  That was

 6     important because of the co-ordination between the two.

 7        Q.   So you're saying that the forces of Western Bosnia, as it was

 8     called, and forces of the 2nd Corps could be called co-operation with --

 9     between the two formations?

10        A.   Yes, co-operation and not an alliance between the two militaries.

11        Q.   And now look at paragraph 3 of this document.  My question is

12     this:  Do you know what was the nature of the relations that Fikret Abdic

13     had with the Republic of Croatia at the time when this report was

14     drafted?

15        A.   No, I don't know what his personal relations were with the

16     Republic of Croatia.  I only know what I heard and saw in the media.  The

17     day before, on the 21st of October, he signed an agreement with

18     Mate Boban.  That was also a peace agreement, but its title was a bit

19     shorter.  I don't know what the title was.  I only know that Mate Boban

20     placed the HVO forces in the Bihac region under the command of

21     Fikret Abdic.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

24     65 ter 119.

25        Q.   General, could you please look at paragraph 2 in that document.

Page 4560

 1     This is another document which you -- or perhaps I should first show you

 2     page 3, the last page in the Serbian and in the English versions.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the last pages in

 4     both versions of this document.

 5        Q.   Is this document also yours?

 6        A.   Again, it was sent in the same way but it is my document.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  Let's now look at page 1, paragraph 2.

 8     Could you please read paragraph 2.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could paragraph 2 be blown up,

10     because I'm sure that the General is going to have problems reading it as

11     it is.  Paragraph 2.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've done it.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, General.  Here a reference is made to an agreement in

15     Vojnic between the representatives of the Army of Yugoslavia, the VRS,

16     the Serbian Army of Krajina, and the National Defence of Western Bosnia,

17     signed on the 24th of June, 1994.  What kind of agreement was that; do

18     you remember?

19        A.   No, I don't know.  I was not in Vojnic.  The agreement was

20     achieved by General Mladic, who signed it with the commander of the

21     Army of Serbian Krajina and Fikret Abdic.

22        Q.   Do you know anything about the contents of the agreement?

23        A.   Exactly what I've just read in paragraph 2, the gist of the

24     agreement was for the Army of Republika Srpska or the 2nd Corps to engage

25     the forces of the 5th Corps on the Una River, which meant that we had

Page 4561

 1     launch demonstrative attacks in order for the 5th Corps to engage the

 2     larger part of its troops with us and leave a smaller part of these

 3     troops to engage Fikret Abdic's forces.

 4        Q.   I understand that you didn't attend the meeting, but do you know

 5     who was there on behalf of the Army of Yugoslavia when that agreement was

 6     signed?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.  And Mladic didn't tell me who was

 8     there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would tender this

11     document into evidence.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm just checking with Mr. Laugel, but

13     I see that this document is marked as P381, marked for identification.

14     I'm trying to investigate what -- who made the objection to its

15     admission.  But since it was initially tendered by the Prosecution, I

16     certainly have no objection to its admittance now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that it was MFI'd on the

18     23rd of April of this year as P381.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The objection

22     was raised on behalf of both Defence teams.  As far as we're concerned,

23     we would like this document to be tendered and we certainly would like to

24     hear from the other Defence team whether they agree with our proposal.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

Page 4562

 1             MR. JORDASH:  We agree.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You agree.

 3             Then nothing opposes anymore the admission into evidence of P381.

 4     Therefore, P381 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Could the Court please produce 65 ter 5068.

 8             Could the General also be allowed to see page 2 in the B/C/S

 9     version, and for the others in the courtroom could the last page in the

10     English version be displayed.

11        Q.   General, this document was signed by

12     Major-General Borislav Djukic.  Do you know this gentleman?  Do you know

13     who General Djukic was?

14        A.   He was an officer, or rather, a general of the Serbian army of

15     Krajina.  The assistant of General Novakovic, I knew him as a logistics

16     man, but I heard that he was also the Chief of Staff and I suppose that

17     he signed this document in his capacity as the Chief of Staff.

18        Q.   Could you please look at paragraph 3 of the document.  In the

19     Serbian language it is towards the top of page 2.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Again, could the paragraph please

21     be blown up for the benefit of the General, who might have a problem

22     reading this paragraph.

23        Q.   Could you please read paragraph 3, General.

24        A.   Do you want me to do it aloud or just for myself?

25        Q.   Just for yourself because we can all see.  We can all read the

Page 4563

 1     document at the same time you do.

 2        A.   I've read it.

 3        Q.   Thank you, General.  My question to you is this:  This operation

 4     that was described here, do you know who drafted the plan for this

 5     operation here?  Could we ascribe it to the author of the document, or

 6     was it somebody else who did it.

 7        A.   Could I please be shown the heading of this letter or report?  I

 8     would like to see the date.

 9        Q.   The date is the 9th of July, 1995 [as interpreted].  We can show

10     you the heading as well, but in order to save some time --

11        A.   Judging by the style and by the ignorance - if I may say

12     so - this document was certainly not drafted in the General Staff of the

13     Army of Republika Srpska.  And if you are asking for my opinion, I

14     believe that it was drafted by this same General Djukic, as the assistant

15     for logistics in the command of the Army of Serbian Krajina.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, General.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

18     tender this document into evidence as well.

19             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Admitted as Exhibit D00042.  Thank you,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D42 is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I need to make a correction.  This

25     is what I owe to the Trial Chamber and to the General.  On page 15 and

Page 4564

 1     line 4 it says that the document was drafted on the 9th of July, 1995,

 2     whereas the document is actually drafted on the 9th of July, 1994.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the copy that I'm looking at says

 6     "1993," the translation that I'm looking at.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the original reads

 8     1994, and the events described happened in 1994.

 9             Can we please have the first page of the document displayed both

10     in English and in Serbian.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a translation error in the

12     translation because the original clearly refers to 1994, whereas the

13     translation refers to 1993.  Yes.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore your correction was accurate.  Although

16     it's not dramatic, I'd rather have the translation replaced by one

17     without errors.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We shall do

19     that, Your Honours.  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

22     65 ter 5070.

23        Q.   This is another document drafted by General Borislav Djukic.

24     General, could you please look at paragraph 2.  The document is dated the

25     12th of July, 1994.  In the heading it says the Republic of

Page 4565

 1     Serbian Krajina, the Main Staff of the Army of Serbian Krajina.  This is

 2     to avoid any dilemmas as to where the document originates from.  Could

 3     you please look at paragraph 2, and I'll have some questions for you.

 4        A.   I've read it.

 5        Q.   Thank you, General.  What I would like to know is this:  Based on

 6     this operative report, can we conclude that on the previous day or during

 7     a previous period, the forces of the 2nd Krajina Corps of the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska carried out defence operations and whether they

 9     co-operated with the forces of the Serbian Army of Krajina and the forces

10     of the Western Bosnia?

11        A.   Mr. President, I need your assistance, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm analysing documents which I did

14     not draft myself, which do not originate from the Army of

15     Republika Srpska.  I don't know whether I'm a witness or an analyst here.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You are here as a witness, and you are asked now

17     whether we can conclude based on this report that something had happened

18     on the previous day.  Now, if you have any knowledge what happened on the

19     previous day, please tell us; if you just draw your conclusions on the

20     basis of the report, perhaps a witness of fact is not the most

21     appropriate person to do so -- unless you would have any special

22     understanding of these kind of documents which would make it possible for

23     you to draw conclusions which another -- someone analysing the document

24     would not be able to make.

25             Mr. Groome.

Page 4566

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask that we go into private

 2     session briefly.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Has it to do with what the witness just --

 4             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps, Your Honour, I --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- asked --

 6             MR. GROOME:  -- maybe I can say -- but -- I'll say something in

 7     public session, maybe it will indicate what I'm thinking to the Chamber.

 8     The last two exhibits are the subject of a pending 54 bis application

 9     with respect to RFA 1333, and perhaps it would be more prudent that they

10     be introduced -- placed under seal until that application is decided.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that seems to be ...

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it the Defence teams do not oppose that.

14             The last two exhibits are -- that were shown to the witness are

15     under seal.  So the admission of the previous one and the one shown at

16     this moment to the witness should not be shown to the public.

17             Mr. Petrovic, there are two options:  Either you rephrase your

18     question, or we hear from the witness, who would then keep in mind what I

19     just said about his position.  What would you prefer?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will rephrase my

21     question and ask about a unit belonging to the army in which the General

22     was the deputy commander --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please rephrase your question.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   General, do you know that the 2nd Krajina Corps in July 1994

Page 4567

 1     acted in co-ordination with the Serbian Army of the Krajina and the

 2     forces of people's defence from the Western Bosnia autonomous province in

 3     Cazinska Krajina and along the axes that are mentioned here?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             I seek to tender this document into evidence as well, but I don't

 7     know if what Mr. Groome said applies to this one as well.  If it does,

 8     then this one should also be admitted under seal.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I understood his reference to the last two documents

10     as the last one which was admitted and the present one who was discussed.

11             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I have no objection to

12     admission.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar, the number for this exhibit

14     would be ...

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D00043.  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D00043 is admitted into evidence under seal.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18             Could we now please see 65 ter 2D00087.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22             2D00087, please.

23        Q.   This is also a document of the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

24     namely, the Main Staff of the Army of Serbian Krajina, and it was signed

25     by one Borislav Djukic.

Page 4568

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to page 2 on the

 2     Serbian version.  It's on page 2, suggested measures.

 3        Q.   General, please look at these measures, and then I will put my

 4     question to you.

 5        A.   Let me just find it.  Oh, yes, I've found it now.

 6        Q.   Have you read it, General?

 7        A.   Not yet, not all of it.

 8             The first line of item 4 is totally illegible.

 9        Q.   I'll read it out to you.

10             "To prevent Velika Kladusa from falling on the 9th of March, it

11     is necessary to strengthen the defence with at least an armoured

12     battalion."

13             Some parts of it are illegible, I will admit.

14        A.   The illegible part means "or an infantry company."

15        Q.   Well, we have interpreted it together.  Can I put my question

16     now?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Is General Djukic suggesting measures here and activities that

19     make it necessary for both the VRS and the forces of the

20     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia and the Serbian Army of the Krajina

21     to act?

22        A.   [No interpretation]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

24             The speakers are kindly reminded not to overlap, and make a pause

25     between question and answer.

Page 4569

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, could I again ask you not to start

 2     answering the question when the interpreters are still interpreting the

 3     words spoken by Mr. Petrovic, so to make a brief pause.

 4             And could I also invite you to repeat your last answer.  Should I

 5     repeat the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That isn't necessary.

 7             The signatory of the document, General Djukic, under item 5 of

 8     the suggested measures, only informs his units that the 2nd Krajina Corps

 9     of the VRS continues the attack it started yesterday.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

13     this document into evidence.

14             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  It will be admitted as

17     Exhibit D00044.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D44 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Let us look at 65 ter 2D119.

21        Q.   General, please tell us whether this is one of your documents.

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   Tell us, please, is this document in essence about singling out

24     the 3rd Battalion of the 11th lpbr and sending it, as we see under item

25     3, the battalion will be used in accordance with the decisions of the

Page 4570

 1     Pauk command; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document

 4     into evidence.

 5             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The number would be, Mr. Registrar ...

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D00045.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D45 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10             Could we please show the General 65 ter 2D71.

11        Q.   General, please take a look at this document and tell us if this

12     is a document of the commander Colonel-General Ratko Mladic.  But if I

13     can tell, the assistant commander for legal affairs has signed.

14        A.   I cannot see the bottom of the page.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The signature of General Mladic

17     isn't there.  The document wasn't sent by teleprinter; it was typed.  And

18     it says:  The copy of the order is being certified by assistant commander

19     for morale and legal affairs, General Simic.  But I don't know the man.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Please take a look at the introduction.

22        A.   I've seen it.

23        Q.   The command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.  So let us simplify.  My

24     question is:  Do you know that Colonel-General Ratko Mladic, upon the

25     proposal of the commander of the Serbian Army of the Krajina

Page 4571

 1     Lieutenant-General Mile Novakovic, commanded the combat group Mauzer

 2     belonging to the Serbian army of the Krajina and another unit?

 3        A.   No, I'm not familiar with that.

 4        Q.   General, if you look at the stamp on this document - can we

 5     please see it - does that stamp look like that of a unit of the VRS, in

 6     particular here the 1st Zvornik Brigade?  Was this a stamp as was used by

 7     brigade-level units of the VRS?

 8        A.   Yes, that was the stamp used by the units of the VRS.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document

10     into evidence.

11             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit Number D00046.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D46 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Could we please see 65 ter 4216, please.

17        Q.   This is a document of the people's defence of Western Bosnia,

18     their Supreme Command.  I'll ask you to take a look at items 7 and 8,

19     where we see the names Mile Novakovic, commander of Pauk; and Cedo Bulat,

20     chief of the command of Pauk.

21             My question is:  Does this correspond to your knowledge of who

22     the commander and the chief in the command of Pauk was?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document

Page 4572

 1     into evidence.

 2             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             Mr. Groome, is there any dispute about who the commander of Pauk

 5     and the -- who the chief of the command of Pauk was?

 6             MR. GROOME:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Why are we hearing evidence where there seems to be

 8     no dispute about these kind of matters, Mr. Petrovic?  Why not agree with

 9     Mr. Groome on these matters, and then if you want, if need be, the

10     document -- we are here to focus on matters which are in dispute and not

11     on matters which are not in dispute.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  We will

13     certainly bear in mind what you said, and we have already started

14     drafting a list of facts that we want to offer our learned friends for

15     their acceptance.  Due to the well-known circumstances, the job isn't

16     finished yet, but we are working on it and we will send it to the -- to

17     our colleagues.

18             If I may, I would like to proceed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but, meanwhile, whatever you want to establish,

20     please ask yourself at this moment, even if the list is not ready - and

21     not blaming you for it, the circumstances explained, it should have been

22     done already before these circumstances arose - but ask yourself -- I

23     mean, if I can imagine that this might not be a highly disputed issue,

24     you would be able to consider that as well I would say.  For any of your

25     next questions, please ask yourself whether that's anything you would

Page 4573

 1     expect Mr. Groome to disagree with.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  May I just -- hopefully assisting the Court, it is,

 5     I understand, from reading the Prosecution's evidence to be called, their

 6     case that certain members, including number 12 on this list, would only

 7     take orders from the accused.  And so to that extent, in our submission,

 8     these are extremely relevant.  The commander isn't disputed, but how the

 9     operation worked is --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But what we are doing here is asking was Mr. X or

11     was Mr. Y -- so whether they were effective in their command and who

12     would listen to them, that may be disputed matters, but apparently not

13     this, what is -- he is called here "commander."  And we are talking

14     about -- not about Mr. 12, is it, we are talking about, I think, 7 and 8.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I suppose -- it's just that these exhibits, in

16     our submission, are relevant insofar as they go to prove other aspects of

17     the Prosecution case.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the question -- the one and only question

19     put to this witness is:  Is it in accordance with your recollection that

20     he was this and he was that, which is -- apparently is a matter which is

21     not in dispute.

22             MR. JORDASH:  I'll sit down, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours ...

Page 4574

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I addressed Mr. Groome when he had said that he

 3     had no objections to admission.

 4             Mr. Registrar, the number under which it would be admitted would

 5     be ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  D00047, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D47 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   General, according to what you know, was General Novakovic in

11     command of the units that were resubordinated to the Pauk command?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   And now I would like to ask you just a few more questions about

15     Pauk, but I would kindly ask you to answer either yes or no, so we may

16     bring this topic to an end, if you agree to do so and if you can, of

17     course.

18             First question, therefore:  Is it true that the strategic

19     interests of the Army of Republika Srpska was to weaken and eliminate the

20     5th Corps from the very beginning of the war to the end of 1995?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is it true that from 1993 the command was carried out based on

23     the co-operation and co-ordination of all units involved in this

24     activity?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4575

 1        Q.   Is it true that the Pauk command is only a different

 2     organisational form of co-operation and co-ordination of the kind that

 3     existed even before the end of 1994?

 4        A.   I'm afraid I did not understand your question.

 5        Q.   Is it true that the Pauk command is an organisational form of

 6     co-operation and co-ordination which in its essence was identical to the

 7     co-operation and co-ordination which existed even before the Pauk command

 8     was set up?

 9        A.   No.  It was a temporary force to carry out a certain task.

10        Q.   Is it true that even after the establishment of the Pauk command,

11     the strategic goals of all involved parties remained the same in

12     everything, and that concerns the Army of Republika Srpska, the

13     Army of Serbian Krajina, and the National Defence of Western Bosnia?

14        A.   Yes, the main task was to break up the 5th Corps.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that we

16     have reached the time for our first break, if you're agreeable; and after

17     that, I will be moving on to a different topic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and could you inform us also whether you are on

19     schedule?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe so.  For

21     the time being I would say so, yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break, and we resume at 4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.

Page 4576

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   General, now I would like to move on to a different topic.  Could

 3     we now please look at a document first, and then I will ask you for your

 4     comment.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It is 65 ter 4653.  Could the

 6     Court please produce the document.  Can we first see page 2 in the

 7     Serbian language and page 2 in the English language.

 8        Q.   General, this is a directive on the use of armed forces in the

 9     upcoming period dated 10th of December, 1991.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at the

11     last pages, both in the Serbian and the English versions of the document.

12        Q.   The directive was signed by the federal secretary for

13     National Defence, army general Veljko Kadijevic.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see the third page,

15     both in the Serbian original and the English translation.  Can we see the

16     top of those two pages.

17        Q.   General, could you please read the first paragraph on the page

18     currently displayed on the screen.

19        A.   Starting with the word "our"?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   I've read the first paragraph.

22        Q.   Thank you.  My question is this:  The federal secretary

23     Kadijevic, do you understand him and the way he drafted his directive?

24     Did he define the protection of the Serbian population as the ultimate

25     aim of the war?  Is that the way you understood the secretary -- federal

Page 4577

 1     secretary's directive?

 2        A.   To me personally there is something contradictory here, something

 3     controversial.

 4             "Our armed forces are entering a new period of exceptional

 5     significance for accomplishing the ultimate aims of the war ..." and

 6     we're talking about December 1991.  I suppose that he means the war

 7     between Croatia and the then-Republic of Serbian Krajina, i.e., the

 8     activities of the JNA.  I don't have any particular opinion about this.

 9        Q.   But do you then accept that the federal secretary defines the

10     ultimate goal as protection of the Serbian population in the territory

11     where the -- that population resides outside of Serbia, implying Croatia

12     and Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Is that the way you would understand the

13     ultimate goal of the war as defined by Kadijevic?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slow down when putting

15     his questions to the witness.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I don't understand your

17     question, despite my best wishes to understand you.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let's take the

21     opportunity and if you agree so admit this document into evidence if the

22     witness can confirm that the document was drafted by the federal

23     secretary.  If you think that that might be useful, then I would like to

24     tender this document into evidence; if not, I will move on.  It is the

25     Prosecutor's 65 ter document, so I suppose that the Prosecutor also

Page 4578

 1     intended at one point to use this document or even tender it into

 2     evidence.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no objection to the admittance

 4     of this document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's rather unclear what it serves.  Is there any

 6     dispute about this document coming from Mr. Kadijevic?

 7             MR. GROOME:  Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  So therefore we don't need it.

 9             What you asked the witness -- well, he said:  I can't comment on

10     it.  And if you intended to -- to establish that what the document says

11     is that the ultimate aims of the war, whatever war that may have been,

12     was the protection of the Serbian population, that's what the document

13     says.  So therefore I still do not see the relevance, but perhaps it

14     takes more time to discuss it than -- Mr. Registrar, the number would

15     be ...

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D00048.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D48 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19             Could the Court please produce 65 ter 94, another Prosecutor's

20     65 ter document.

21        Q.   General, I believe that the Prosecutor has already showed you

22     this document, that it was shown to you during your proofing session.

23     This document bears the title:  "Conclusions from the appraisal of the

24     situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina," and the document was drafted by

25     General Milutin Kukanjac.

Page 4579

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at paragraph

 2     3(c) on page 2 in the Serbian language.  I will have one question for the

 3     General.

 4        Q.   It's at the very bottom of the page, General.

 5        A.   Under (c)?

 6        Q.   Yes.  The situation in the JNA territory under (c).  Just the

 7     first sentence.  Let's not waste much time.

 8        A.   "Generally speaking" --

 9        Q.   Yes, but read it to yourself.  No need to read it aloud.  Just

10     the first sentence, please, and then I'll have a question to you.

11             Here the General is of the opinion that the SDS and the Serbian

12     people at the time when the document was drafted, which was in March

13     1992, accepted the army, co-operated with the commands, and the Serbs

14     responded eagerly and joined voluntary and war units.

15             My question to you is this:  Did you have the same opinion as

16     General Kukanjac?  Did you share General Kukanjac's opinion with regard

17     to the initial period and the relationship between the SDS, the Serbian

18     population, and the JNA?

19        A.   I don't have any information about any of that, because at the

20     time I was in Skopje.

21        Q.   Thank you.  If that is indeed the case, let's move on and look at

22     paragraph 5 in the same document which is on page 3 in B/C/S.

23             Could you please look at paragraph 5.

24        A.   "Voluntary units"?

25        Q.   Yes.  And it says here that the strength of voluntary units

Page 4580

 1     amounts to 69.198 men, that's under (b), and then under (f) -- I'm going

 2     to read to speed up --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, speeding up for the interpreters is not

 4     something they are wishing you to do, but could we move to the next page

 5     in English.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, it's one page before in

 7     the English version, if I could have that displayed, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you referred to under (b) and under (f), the

 9     strength of voluntary units, so that was on --

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is my impression

11     that you --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I read from the transcript.  It says here that the

13     strength of voluntary units amounts to 69.198.  That is on the page which

14     we see now on our screen, and that's what you referred to.  So that's the

15     reason why I asked for the next page to be shown, because the previous

16     page in English showed only paragraph (a).  But if there's anything you

17     would like to read from (a), please do so.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, I actually did not see what

19     was displayed.  I wanted to look at Article 5(b), and now I would like to

20     read from Article 5(f).  I wanted to read in order to speed things along.

21        Q.   What it says under (f) is that:

22             "The JNA has distributed" --

23        A.   "51.900 pieces of weaponry" --

24        Q.   Yes, precisely so.

25             "The JNA has distributed 51.900 weapons and the SDS 17.298 pieces

Page 4581

 1     of weaponry ..."

 2             My question to you, General, is this:  Do you have any

 3     information that would confirm what General Kukanjac wrote about the

 4     number of pieces of weaponry that the JNA had distributed to the

 5     population during that period of time?

 6        A.   No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is that in dispute about these numbers

 8     distributed by the JNA for 75 per cent and the SDS for the remaining

 9     25 per cent?

10             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour, and the Prosecution would not

11     object if this document were tendered.  So perhaps -- it doesn't seem

12     that General Milovanovic --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute about it?

14             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Why are we asking all kind of things where they seem

16     not to be in dispute, Mr. Petrovic?  I mean, I think these numbers have

17     come up in other cases several times, even from what I remember,

18     presented by the Prosecution.  So it's not clear to me -- you're asking

19     whether this is correct, and the Prosecution already agrees to that.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

21     would like to say that one part of the Prosecutor's case against the

22     accused is that they contributed significantly to the armament of the

23     population in the territories that we are referring to here.  What we

24     would like to show in this case are the facts about who, how, and to what

25     extent armed the population.  This is what we wanted to do.

Page 4582

 1             If the Prosecution wants to withdraw their -- that part of the

 2     case, then confirm that the accused did not have anything whatsoever to

 3     do in all that, that's all good and fine, and we will move on.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, what Mr. Petrovic says is that you're

 5     undermining your own case by admitting to these numbers.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, arms were provided to the territories

 7     by a number of sources.  I'm not willing to agree that the two accused

 8     had no part to play, but I don't see that they exclude each -- one

 9     excludes the other.  I'm willing to agree that the JNA provided arms, as

10     described by General Kukanjac, but whether I'm willing to go so far as to

11     immunise the two accused from having engaged in activities related to

12     arming civilians, I'm not willing to go so far.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Now, Mr. Petrovic --

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What I see is that apparently this is about

17     zones, et cetera, so therefore it might be -- to say, Is this number

18     correct or is it not correct, rather than look at where they were

19     distributed, when they were distributed, in order -- I mean, that perhaps

20     makes sense, but the numbers in itself -- okay.  Let's move on and -- but

21     I want to stress that for the Chamber to be assisted by the evidence

22     you're eliciting, it should be clear where exactly the dispute is and for

23     us not to guess.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if my learned friend

Page 4583

 1     accepts the figures that appear in this document, this will save us a

 2     significant amount of time; namely, that the JNA distributed 51.900

 3     weapons before the war.  And we don't have to proceed with this document

 4     at all if the Prosecutor does not insist.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So what apparently you're seeking to say, we can

 6     save time if the Prosecution agrees with the numbers, that's 51.000 being

 7     distributed by the JNA and 17.298 distributed by the SDS.  Do we need

 8     periods?  Do we need --

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I think it's more accurate to say I

10     don't dispute these figures.  I have no personal knowledge about the

11     exact amount of weapons, but certainly the Prosecution does not dispute

12     the fact that large amounts of weapons were distributed.  And perhaps

13     outside of court time if Mr. Petrovic wants to draft that into a written

14     agreement I'd be happy to discuss that with him and I'm sure we can come

15     to some agreement.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, what these numbers mean, you would say, in

17     relation to this case, that's another matter?

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I will

22     no longer ask questions about this document, but since this is a document

23     that the OTP wanted to rely upon in its case, I seek to tender it into

24     evidence.  And certainly we will be only too glad to discuss it on the

25     basis that has just been put forward.

Page 4584

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that you want to rely upon it as well

 2     because tendering into evidence is not a service to the other party.

 3             Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  D00049.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D49 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             I'm not specifically asking the Stanisic Defence at any time, but

 8     I take it that you'll jump up if there's any objection against the

 9     document which is tendered by the other Defence team.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   General, let us look at 65 ter 4685.  Tell us, please, do you

13     recognise this document?

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the last page

15     for the witness to be able to see the signature.

16        Q.   Tell us, do you recognise the document on the screen?

17        A.   Yes, it's the first directive issued by the commander,

18     General Mladic.

19        Q.   Did you take part in drafting this directive?

20        A.   I probably did.

21        Q.   Do you know which other officers, apart from General Mladic,

22     officers from the Main Staff, took part in the drafting of this

23     directive, if you know?

24        A.   I don't know.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see or look at

Page 4585

 1     item 4 of this directive which is on page 2 in the original.

 2        Q.   Please read the centre paragraphs that appear on the screen, and

 3     then I will ask you about it.

 4        A.   You mean paragraph (C)?

 5        Q.   "(C) Open for traffic," et cetera, and the following.

 6             Up until the "tasks of the units."  We'll look at that later.

 7        A.   I've read it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Here in item 4, as the second stage, what is

 9     mentioned is creating a corridor between Semberija and Krajina, push back

10     the enemy from the road, et cetera.  My question is:  What was the

11     significance of the corridor between Semberija and the Krajina?  Could

12     you provide a brief explanation.

13        A.   In the early days of the war, the Banja Luka region, that is, the

14     Bosnian Krajina and the Knin Krajina, were cut off from Serbia, that is,

15     they were cut off from the entire world.  We were unable to supply basic

16     foodstuffs to the population, and 12 babies died in Banja Luka hospitals

17     because there was no -- not enough oxygen.  One died ten years later,

18     died of the consequences.  There was a decision of the Presidency, the

19     Supreme Command wasn't yet in existence, that decision being that the

20     forces of the 1st Eastern Bosnia Corps should be used to cut through the

21     corridor to establish a link between Bosnian Krajina with Semberija and

22     Serbia.

23        Q.   Could you please explain.  When you say "Presidency," you mean

24     the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4586

 1        Q.   Please tell us -- tell us about the command of the operation of

 2     the cutting through of the corridor.  Who were the members of the

 3     commanding staff for that operation?

 4        A.   Operation corridor 92 was commanded by the command of the

 5     1st Corps, and it was the 1st Krajina Corps that acted in co-ordination

 6     with the Eastern Bosnia Corps, and they carried out the operation.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now take a look at item 5, tasks of the units.  Look

 8     at that section, and I'll ask you some questions about it.

 9        A.   I've read it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  It says that the:

11             "Tasks of the 1st Krajina Corps from OG Doboj were to continue

12     along the directions Derventa-Modrica and Doboj-Podnovlje;" correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know which units were -- belonged to the OG Doboj and who

15     commanded them?

16        A.   OG Doboj was initially commanded by the then-colonel and

17     present-day general, Slavko Lisica.  OG Doboj comprised mostly units from

18     the surroundings of Doboj and units from Mount Ozren.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn the page.

21        Q.   I'll read it, if you agree, so we can speed it up.  It says:

22             "The East Bosnian Corps defends the current lines with one part

23     of its forces."

24        A.   I can't see it.

25        Q.   The first paragraph up there.

Page 4587

 1        A.   Yes, I see it.  I read it.

 2        Q.   This says that:

 3             "The East Bosnian Corps, in co-ordinated action with the

 4     1st Krajina Corps, will liberate Modrica, take the bridges over the

 5     Sava River, and provide secure traffic from Modrica to Bosanski Samac."

 6             What I'm interested to know is what the significance of this line

 7     of communication between Modrica and Samac is.

 8        A.   The significance was establishing a link between Doboj and Samac.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now please look at the section that refers to the

10     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

11        A.   I see it.  I've read it.

12        Q.   Would the successful accomplishment of this task mean

13     establishing control of all territories around the city of Sarajevo?

14     Because I don't really understand this well enough.

15        A.   No, it wouldn't mean establishing control of the city of

16     Sarajevo, only the taking of those parts of Sarajevo with a majority Serb

17     population.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at the following paragraph, the

19     last one in this document.

20        A.   You mean the Herzegovina Corps?

21        Q.   It's also -- it also refers to Sarajevo-Romanija Corps when you

22     have read it.  It said:

23             "Unblock the road Sarajevo-Trnovo."

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Why is the unblocking of that road important?

Page 4588

 1        A.   To establish a link between Sarajevo and Kalinovik, that is,

 2     Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Tell us when the town of Trnovo was liberated, if you know.

 4        A.   I know when it was occupied and also when it was liberated.  It

 5     was occupied on the 2nd of August, 1992.  It was liberated on the

 6     11th of July, 1993, as part of the -- an operation of the VRS called

 7     Lukavac 93.

 8        Q.   Is it true that keeping Trnovo was crucial important to preserve

 9     that vital communication in the eastern part of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you tell us, if you know -- so if you know, in the summer of

12     1992 did the actions of the opposing side threaten that communication

13     line you have just mentioned, that road?

14        A.   No.  At that time I was in Drvar, and I organised defence against

15     the Croatian Operation Storm.

16        Q.   So if I understood you correctly, you have no knowledge about

17     that?

18        A.   I have no knowledge about it.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

21     this document into evidence.

22             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D00050.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D50 is admitted into evidence.

Page 4589

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show directive

 2     number 7, which is 65 ter 1178.  Can we please see page 2.  Number 3 in

 3     the Serbian, please.

 4        Q.   General, is this directive number 7 of the Supreme Command of the

 5     armed forces of Republika Srpska dated the 8th of March, 1995?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   The directive was issued by the supreme commander,

 8     Radovan Karadzic; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

11     paragraph 5 on page 7 in B/C/S.  Page 7 according to the markings that

12     are on the document.  However, in e-court the document has some blank

13     pages.  If you could look at the bottom of the pages, you will see the

14     numbering.  What we see on the screen now is number 3, and we're looking

15     for number 5, page number 5.  The last three ERN digits are 171.

16             I apologise, I need page 7 and not page 5.  I said 7 in the

17     Serbian.  I'm sure that's it.  There must be something with the

18     interpretation.  Now we have it on the screen.

19        Q.   Could you please read the tasks of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

20        A.   I have read it.

21        Q.   My question to you is this:  The contents of directive number 7

22     with regard to the part of the front line in the area of responsibility

23     of the 2nd Krajina Corps, does it -- do they represent the continuity

24     with regard to the previous directives that concern that part of the

25     front line?

Page 4590

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 3     tender this document into evidence if there are no objections from the

 4     Prosecution bench.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's already MFI'd by the Prosecution as P388, and

 6     therefore I suggest that we admit it as P388.

 7             P388 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Could the witness please be shown 2D114, 65 ter 2D114.

11             This is the first page.  And can now the last page be displayed

12     for the signature that's on it.

13        Q.   General, are you the author of the document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In addition to the request that we see before us, during the war

16     were there some other requests sent to the General Staff of the army

17     requesting assistance with armaments and military equipment?

18        A.   I believe so.

19        Q.   According to what you know and according to how you see this,

20     were such requests customary between countries or entities which fostered

21     friendly relations and of which one was a party involved in a war

22     conflict?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know if this request of yours was approved and how much of

25     what was requested was eventually placed at the disposal of the

Page 4591

 1     Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   This request was never approved.

 3        Q.   Do you know of any other similar or identical requests which

 4     fared differently?

 5        A.   I did not send any other requests.  If there were any sent, they

 6     were sent by the logistics sector, and I don't know whether they were

 7     approved or not.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 9     tender this document into evidence as Defence exhibit.

10             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is admitted as D00051.  Thank you,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D51 is admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Petrovic, have you dealt with this document, because the

16     Chamber's wondering what you are establishing at this moment and where it

17     fits into either undermining the Prosecution case or supporting your own

18     case.  Now, I'm not -- I do not want to trigger any conversation about

19     these matters which might influence the witness, but it's not entirely

20     clear to us.  If you'd move to an unrelated subject, the Chamber would

21     like very much to hear in three or four lines from you where it should

22     put this information it has just received in its thoughts.

23             So I leave it to you whether you do that at this moment or

24     whether you do it when you move to another subject.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this brings one topic

Page 4592

 1     to an end.  There are very few things that remain.  I can tell you just

 2     briefly that we're coming back to the topic of logistics, a subject that

 3     we already broached.  The issue is whether the accused in this case had

 4     anything to do with the logistics support provided to the forces

 5     indicated in the indictment.  This is the topic, and I will not have any

 6     more questions about that topic.  However, by your leave I would like to

 7     move on to something entirely different.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so we have to understand that this one request

 9     which was denied and where the witness could not inform us about other

10     requests, not knowing anything about how it was denied, who dealt with

11     the matter, whether this was -- whether there are several logistic

12     avenues or not, you would say this establishes that since this request

13     was denied -- by whom exactly?  That therefore --

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I did not

17     know nor could I assume what the witness's answers were going to be.  We

18     have discovered the document.  I thought that I should put questions to

19     the witness, the witness answered, and that's the situation as it is at

20     the moment.  And we will continue dealing with the subject in the future

21     as well.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that you're handicapped by not

23     having a written statement of the witness available which could serve as

24     guidance for your questioning.  It's good that you emphasize this again,

25     that you're in a similar position as, to some extent, as the Prosecution

Page 4593

 1     was when calling this witness.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   General, sir, I would like to try and deal with a few things, or

 5     rather, clarify a few things from your testimony provided yesterday.  You

 6     spoke about Arkan and about his arrival in Bijeljina.  My question to you

 7     is this:  Do you know who had invited Arkan to come to Bijeljina?  And

 8     would you accept my suggestion that he had arrived at the invitation of

 9     Biljana Plavsic, at Biljana Plavsic's invitation?

10        A.   What period are you referring to?  1992 or 1995?

11        Q.   My mistake.  I should have been more precise.  The year is 1992.

12     Would you agree that he had been invited by Biljana Plavsic and the local

13     leaders of the Territorial Defence?  And I'm talking about the year 1992.

14        A.   I don't know at whose invitation he arrived.  I believe that he

15     came of his own will, that he was not even invited.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

17     please be shown a short video-clip from the Prosecutor's 65 ter 596.  The

18     whole clip last --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the times

20     slowly.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There are transcripts available.

22     They're in e-court.

23             I've been asked to repeat the times.  One hour, 48 minutes,

24     30 seconds, to one hour, 52 minutes, 40 seconds.  I don't know whether

25     that has been recorded.  The transcript is on file, and it has been

Page 4594

 1     distributed to the booths.

 2             Can the clip please be shown to the witness.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 5             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  You are a member of a mixed delegation

 6     that arrived in Bijeljina to witness the alleged destruction that the

 7     media in Sarajevo talk about.  Is that your impression?

 8             "Biljana Plavsic:  What I have seen in town as I was driving by

 9     car, not just me but my escorts, we paid a lot of attention to all that

10     to see whether we would come across shattered glass or broken shop

11     windows as had been portrayed by the media in Sarajevo.  We did not see

12     any of that.  There was a remark uttered that the first shop that would

13     have been broken into would be the one with shoes, but nothing of the

14     kind could be as I saw.  Entering in town my impression -- it was not an

15     impression of entering a robbed town.  The people were very happy when we

16     arrived.  They were -- welcomed us cordially, and it was my impression

17     that the people had the feeling that they were saved from a great evil.

18             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  I have another question.  You are a

19     member of the mixed delegation; however, the second part of the

20     delegation with Fikret Abdic and representatives of the army are not with

21     you.  It is strange that they didn't go to -- that they went to the

22     barracks first.

23             "Biljana Plavsic:  First of all, let me tell you that I directed

24     the entire thing.  The first barricades that I came across was our --

25     there was a Serbian MP at the barricade who said that I should be the one

Page 4595

 1     to determine where to go.  The column was much longer because there were

 2     representatives of the European Community as well.  I told them that they

 3     didn't have to go with us; however, they met us in Tuzla and I warned

 4     them yesterday that I did not want them to go with us.  So the entire

 5     lengthy column together with the journalists set out and at the first

 6     barricades we found our MP whom I know and he told me that I should be

 7     the one who would say who could come to Bijeljina with us.  I set up the

 8     column.  Of course the general that was with us, he was the first that I

 9     appointed to come with us, the troops that were escorting him, and then

10     of course Mr. Fikret Abdic together with his escorts.

11             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  How come that they went to the barracks

12     first?

13             "Biljana Plavsic:  I wanted to come here first --

14             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  What kind of a conflict was there?

15             "Biljana Plavsic:  Well, I wanted to come here first.  I wanted

16     to contact the Crisis Staff, first me, and then I wanted to talk to them.

17     I will go to the barracks as well.

18             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  Do you perhaps know what was going on in

19     the barracks, why did they want to go there first?

20             "Biljana Plavsic:  No, I have no idea.

21             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  I mean, there are soldiers in the

22     barracks.  I don't know.

23             "Biljana Plavsic:  Well, here's why.  I mean, let me tell you,

24     this is without any -- don't think there is any evil intent here.  We

25     were escorted by the police from Bijeljina.  I mean from Tuzla.  A

Page 4596

 1     military patrol escorted us to Tuzla.  We arrived all the way up to

 2     Tuzla.  So perhaps I should have gone to the barracks first, but since I

 3     am my own boss, it was my choice to first visit the local Serbian

 4     people's Crisis Staff and meet here with Mr. Arkan and his associates

 5     here.  We are fortunate to have met here even Mr. Goran Adzic [sic] and

 6     so on.  I knew that it would be better to have such a close encounter

 7     without the others and that we will talk later with everybody.

 8             "Reporter Vukasinovic:  Thank you."

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   General, my question to you is this:  Based on what we have just

11     seen -- let me first ask you this:  Are you aware of this event, of this

12     visit by Mrs. Biljana Plavsic to the Crisis Staff, or rather, to Arkan,

13     and Goran Hadzic was also present there.  Are you aware of that event?

14        A.   I know.  I saw that on TV Nis, and then Biljana Plavsic told me

15     and bragged that Arkan was the first Serbian general that she had ever

16     kissed.

17        Q.   Can we then conclude that Arkan had either arrived in Bijeljina

18     at Mrs. Plavsic's request or at least with her blessing?  Based on what

19     she told you and based on what we have just seen in the courtroom, would

20     you agree with such a proposition?

21        A.   I think that she came across Arkan in Bijeljina and that later on

22     she agreed to his stay there, since she kissed him.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to tender

25     that footage into evidence now, please, with your permission.

Page 4597

 1             MR. GROOME:  No objection, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Admitted as Exhibit D00052.  Thank you,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D52 is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness look at

 7     65 ter document 2D115 next, please.  May we turn to the last page.

 8        Q.   General, is this your document, although it's not signed, but I

 9     assume that you'll recognise it.  Is it your document dated the

10     31st of March, 1994?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And unless I'm very much mistaken, it is your order for the

13     so-called spring offensive in the spring of 1994; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May we now display page 2 for the

16     witness, please.  Paragraph 2.

17             I apologise, but may we have the top of the page displayed,

18     please.

19        Q.   The paragraph beginning with "In the meantime ..."

20             General --

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I might just inquire.  I'm not sure

22     whether --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

24             MR. GROOME:  I'm not sure if there's a problem with our e-court

25     system, but I'm unable to find a translation.

Page 4598

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The problem is that there seems to be no translation

 2     in e-court from what I can see, the original being in B/C/S.  By the way,

 3     this seems not to be the real original, is it, Mr. Petrovic?

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

 5     apologise and tell you, or rather, apologise because we don't have the

 6     translation on e-court.  So I'd like to apologise for that.  We've only

 7     just found it recently.  That's the first point.

 8             And secondly, it was submitted for translation.  Now, this is a

 9     copy of the document, but perhaps it would be best to ask the witness

10     whether it is the document that he signed and when he signed it and

11     whether it is an authentic document because I don't know anything about

12     it.  It was found in the database that the Prosecution disclosed to us.

13     So I think that it would be best to ask the General with respect to the

14     authenticity of the document and what kind of document it is.

15             May I continue?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think you asked the witness whether he

17     thought this was an authentic document.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, may we have your comments, please.

20        A.   The document has no signature.  The contents and the time it was

21     issued confirm that it is my document or tells me that it is my document.

22     However, I've already seen this document somewhere because I can see that

23     my initials are up there next to your number.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  These are your initials at the top of the page,

25     Mr. Milovanovic?

Page 4599

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And there's a date with it at the beginning of the

 3     document, the 8th of July, 2009.  Do you have -- in apparently the same

 4     colour of handwriting.  Is that your handwriting?  Do you recognise on

 5     the first page the date?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is my handwriting, and I

 7     know with which investigator I did this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this to say that you had a conversation in

 9     July 2009 with an investigator?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was a statement taken then or an -- who was the

12     investigator?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that Nicholas was the

14     lawyer, but I don't know the name of the investigator, a tall, thin man.

15     They didn't take any statement.  All they asked me was to see if I

16     recognised some documents.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're talking about an investigator, did you --

18     to what party, if any, that investigator was related, Prosecution or

19     local authorities?  Do you have any recollection?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean who the accused was?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No -- yes -- well, whatever.  You are talking about

22     an investigator.  I've got no knowledge about investigator of what party,

23     to what proceedings.  Was it the Prosecution?  Was it the Defence team?

24     The Defence team of what accused?  I don't know.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person representing the

Page 4600

 1     Prosecution.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do you remember in -- the Prosecution

 3     related to what case before this Tribunal?  Was it for this case or was

 4     it for another case?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't linked to this case.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

10             MR. GROOME:  If it assists the Chamber, Mr. Laugel has located an

11     English translation.  He's in the process of uploading it.  Perhaps if

12     Mr. Petrovic withdraws his request to have the document translated, we

13     should have this document up shortly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then -- could it then be made available for

15     Mr. Petrovic to be attached to his uploaded document?

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Meanwhile, please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   General, my question -- well, can we have page 2 displayed again,

21     please, on our screens.  My question to you is this:  Is it true and

22     correct that in the Posavina region forces did appear which were denoted

23     as being Arkan's and that those forces were under the protection of

24     MUP of Republika Srpska during this time too, that is to say in the

25     spring of 1994?  Is that the piece of information that you had at the

Page 4601

 1     time?

 2        A.   Once again, I have a problem with this document.  I saw a moment

 3     ago in the upper right-hand corner underneath your number it says "copy."

 4     And there's -- and my signature is not there at the bottom.  Now, what

 5     you asked me, whether I knew that these groups moved around, yes, I did

 6     have knowledge of that.  And usually they were passing through between

 7     Bijeljina, Banja Luka, and the Republic of Srpska Krajina.

 8        Q.   Is what it says here correct, that those groups were under the

 9     protection of the MUP of Republika Srpska?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Can you explain how this information came to be in your document?

12        A.   It was probably received from the command of the Eastern Bosnia

13     or 1st Krajina Corps.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Now, Your Honours, I'd like to

16     tender this document into evidence as well, please.  And we shall be

17     providing the translation -- or rather, can it be MFI'd?  And once we

18     receive the translation, I'd like to tender it into evidence.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I reserve my position until I see

20     the translation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Not for MFI?

22             MR. GROOME:  Not for MFI.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the MFI number would be ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D00053, marked for identification.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D53 keeps that status for the time being.

Page 4602

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have a document here which might

 3     help us to throw more light on the authenticity of the previous document,

 4     and that is document 2D116.  So may we have that document called up, and

 5     I do believe that we have a translation of it.

 6             Do we?  No, we don't.  I apologise.  We don't.  But I think that

 7     the witness might be assisted by looking at 2D216 [as interpreted], and

 8     with your permission, Your Honours, I will read the central paragraph,

 9     which is a brief one, of this document, so that you can understand what

10     it's about and follow.

11             And there's a correction to the text of the directive on the

12     31st of March, 1994.  Looking into the main document and the encoded

13     text, confidential 02-2, et cetera, a mistake was made which was made in

14     the encoding.  The text of the passage from the order should read as

15     follows:

16             In the meantime, in the area of Serbian Posavina, paramilitary

17     organisations have appeared, Arkan's men, NOs, and others, who

18     unfortunately with the MUP's acquiescence of the Republic of Serbia are

19     running around Posavina and advocating some kind of -- so MUP of

20     Republika Srpska -- MUP of Republika Srpska, not the Republic of Serbia.

21     Republika Srpska, running around Posavina advocating some kind of

22     re-integration of the former Yugoslavia.  They're doing everything in

23     their power for the Muslim/Croatian forces to cut the corridor,

24     et cetera.

25        Q.   General, this is a document which was sent by teleprinter, but

Page 4603

 1     you're the signatory.  Now, can we agree that this is one of your

 2     documents?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I just want to express my concern that

 4     what's now recorded in the transcript is -- appears to be in

 5     quotations -- a quote from the document, when, in fact, it's a mixture of

 6     a quote from the document and a quote from Mr. Petrovic.  I just want to

 7     note that fact.  I guess perhaps we'll have to wait until we have the

 8     actual translation to clarify what the document actually says.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have no idea whether it's a mixture or not,

10     but I do agree with you that we should have a look at the official

11     translation before we even can find out.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave I

13     totally agree with my learned friend.  There has been a mistake in the

14     transcript and I intervened, and then that has been corrected.  But there

15     was a mix-up in the meantime.  However, I would like to limit myself to

16     the issue of the authenticity of the document.  I would like to hear from

17     the document -- the witness whether this was a document drafted by him or

18     not.  And for the rest of the issues relating to this document, I would

19     like to reserve the right to discuss those when we have the translation

20     of the document.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  This is on the record now.  Please proceed and ask

22     the witness what you want to ask him.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   General, sir, is this your document?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4604

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document

 3     please be MFI'd and could it please be admitted into evidence as a

 4     Defence exhibit once we are able to provide a translation.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The document can be MFI'd.

 6             MR. GROOME:  And again I'd reserve my position until I can read

 7     the document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is marked for identification as

11     D00054.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

13             Mr. Petrovic, now apparently there has been a document dated

14     31st of March and then we have another document which says it's not

15     accurate, it should read differently.  Now, I have not compared the two,

16     but is now the document you'd shown first, is that the one which is

17     already corrected or is that the one still to be corrected?

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the second, shorter

19     document is the correction of the first document, dated the

20     31st of March, and only one part of one paragraph, the paragraph that I

21     asked the witness about and the paragraph that the witness testified

22     about.  So the first document has been corrected by the second document,

23     and that's the whole matter.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             So the correction is already included in the document as you had

Page 4605

 1     shown it to us earlier?

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I

 3     don't think so.  The first document has remained what it was, and a

 4     correction has been made in one paragraph.  And this was done to provide

 5     the addressee with a complete information, because the way I understood

 6     it there was -- a mistake was made during the decoding.  But maybe the

 7     General would be best suited to actually tell us what happened with that

 8     document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, Mr. Milovanovic, what happened?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the first document it says that

11     the paramilitary units were running around Republika Srpska under the

12     protection of the Ministry of the Interior, and that was then corrected.

13     And the correction refers to the part "under the protection."  So the

14     words "under the protection" has been replaced by the words "with the

15     blessing of" or "in full knowledge of."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which was translated to us as "with the

17     acquiescence," I think.  It's clear -- the correction is not yet -- so

18     therefore the first document is authentic to the extent that it was the

19     first version, but is not authentic as not being the final version of

20     what this document was supposed to be.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock.  Perhaps I should say

24     please do not proceed at this moment.

25             I would like to know, Mr. Petrovic, where we are in time.

Page 4606

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sure that we

 2     will finish with this witness by the end of the day.  I believe that I

 3     need another half an hour to 45 minutes at the most.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm -- I can see that you would be happy to

 5     finish the witness today, but there may be questions in re-examination.

 6             Mr. Groome, how much time do you think you would need?

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would estimate that I would have ten

 8     minutes of questions.  And then it would -- may I expedite things.  I'm

 9     going to ask that the witness be allowed to read a document rather than

10     read it in front of us.  I'll show it -- with the Court's permission,

11     I'll show it to counsel and then perhaps we could bring it in -- the

12     Court Usher could bring it in to the witness during the break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then, of course, we do not know whether

14     there would be -- whether the re-examination triggers any need for

15     further cross.

16             Let me check with my colleagues as well.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, in view of the time that remains, we'll have a

19     break until five minutes to 6.00, perhaps I should add sharp; and then

20     you have 40 minutes, not more, Mr. Petrovic, to conclude your

21     cross-examination.  And then we'll finish the testimony of this witness

22     by 7.00, at its latest.

23             We have a -- we resume at five minutes to 6.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

Page 4607

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, please proceed.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   General, I have just a few more questions, so I hope we'll end

 4     this foray into the documents.  Now, I'd like to ask you to look at D29.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May we have it up on e-court,

 6     please.  It's a very short document.  D29 is the number.

 7        Q.   Take a look at that document, please, General.

 8             Can I ask you the question now?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   This letter, this is Arkan's letter to Radovan Karadzic in actual

11     fact.  Now, my question to you is:  Did the Main Staff of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska know about the existence of certain special relations

13     with Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, at the material time, the time we're

14     talking about, did you have any awareness of that?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Would you now look at P289, please.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2 of the document, please.

18        Q.   This is a document of the Main Staff of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska.  It is signed by General, or rather, Ratko Mladic's

20     signature is there, Colonel-General Ratko Mladic.  Would you look at the

21     paragraph that begins with Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, is showing citizens

22     an official document, et cetera, that document.

23        A.   Yes, I see that.

24        Q.   Would you read that paragraph.

25        A.   You mean to myself?

Page 4608

 1        Q.   Yes, read it to yourself so that you can acquaint yourself with

 2     the contents of the document.

 3             And now let's look at the second page under number 1 where it

 4     says:  "I demand and propose ..."  Read that section, please, and see

 5     what General Mladic is proposing.

 6        A.   I've read it.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in this document it says that

 8     Colonel-General Ratko Mladic is asking the president of Republika Srpska

 9     to take away the authorisation to Zeljko Raznatovic, authorising him to

10     arrest -- use his troops to arrest people, et cetera.  Now, knowing

11     General Mladic and knowing the information that he had, would

12     General Mladic have ever comprised a document of this kind had he not had

13     reliable information that this kind of authorisation existed?

14        A.   General Mladic and I worked on problems of this nature together.

15     He asked Karadzic to withdraw the authorisation, and I asked Karadzic to

16     organise a meeting with me and Arkan.  We were not sure whether those

17     authorisations existed, but Arkan did present some papers and documents

18     which he said was the authorisation.

19        Q.   Thank you.  May we now play a brief film, an excerpt, which I'd

20     like you to view, General.  It is P59.  And as we were explained, it's a

21     film that was taken on the 10th of November, 1995.  And I'd like it

22     played from the first minute until the fourth minute of the tape.  Let's

23     view that.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

Page 4609

 1             "Unknown Soldier:  Sir, the battalion of the Serbian Volunteer

 2     Guard is lined up in your honour, sir.  Ranks are ready for inspection.

 3             "Radovan Karadzic:  For the guard and for you as the commander of

 4     the guard.

 5             "Zeljko Raznatovic:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 6             "Radovan Karadzic:  Gratitude for you being here.  This is not

 7     the end, it is the beginning.

 8             "Zeljko Raznatovic:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Would

 9     you be so kind as to say a few words.

10             "Radovan Karadzic:  I am deeply thankful and I congratulate you

11     and I hope that we will meet again in peace.  And you will always have a

12     place in the heart of those whom you have defended.  Thank you.

13             "Zeljko Raznatovic:  Mr. President, in the name of the

14     Serbian Volunteer Guards I would like to say two words to you, which is

15     that we are ready if you call us and that we will be back to defend our

16     eternal homeland, to defend our women and children, to defend our Serbian

17     territory and our Orthodox religion.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             "Radovan Karadzic:  Cheers!

19             "Zeljko Raznatovic:  Very well, Mr. President.  We are going back

20     now.  I want to thank you once again.

21             "Radovan Karadzic:  Good-bye!

22             "Zeljko Raznatovic:  Here we are, we will come and we will stay

23     in contact."

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, sir, according to this document, is it footage that the

Page 4610

 1     Prosecution introduced into evidence?  It says that it was filmed on the

 2     10th of November, 1995.  Now, what I'm interested in first is:  Can you

 3     recognise the town, the town where this short film was taken?

 4        A.   I recognise the town and I recognise the footage.  I'm just --

 5     I'm just not sure of the date.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what the town is?

 7        A.   It's Bijeljina, and it's often shown on various footage.

 8        Q.   Now, Karadzic says:

 9             "I thank you deeply and I congratulate you," among other things.

10             Now, does that explain that Arkan came at Karadzic's invitation

11     and that he stayed in Republika Srpska despite the position taken by the

12     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska right up until, as it says,

13     November 1995, in the film?

14        A.   I've just said that I was a little taken aback by the date

15     because we expelled Arkan, I believe, on the 9th of September.  Now --

16     and that's the date of this document here too.  So this official

17     seeing-off, Karadzic could have done that on the 11th of September.  Now,

18     I see that you're mentioning the 11th of November here as the date.  Now,

19     in November there were intensive negotiations underway over Dayton and

20     the peace agreement, Dayton Peace Agreement.  So I think that the

21     director of this footage took something -- some footage from an archive

22     or he might have filmed it then.  But anyway, with respect to these

23     expressions of gratitude on the part of Karadzic, that's not a signal of

24     any kind that Arkan came pursuant to his order.  But the fact that

25     Karadzic handed out these signs of recognition does show that Arkan came

Page 4611

 1     in with Karadzic's knowledge, which Karadzic at the time denied.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And you can see that Arkan is addressing Karadzic in

 3     this film by using the words "supreme commander," right?  He says

 4     "supreme commander" to him?

 5        A.   All I can see in this film is that they have -- neither of them

 6     have any knowledge of army discipline and touring the ranks, as you would

 7     normally.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, counsel, please.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, do you know who Milosav Gagovic is,

13     Colonel Milosav Gagovic?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  Milosav Gagovic, a colonel, a Montenegrin, at the

15     beginning of the war was assistant for the rear in the command of the

16     4th Corps in Sarajevo.  Now, with the withdrawal of the JNA from

17     Sarajevo, he stayed on for a time as the charge d'affaire or acting

18     commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps until we established a

19     full-fledged corps, or rather, the remains of the JNA 4th Corps.

20        Q.   So in May 1992, Colonel Gagovic performed this function, the one

21     you've just described to us, if I understand your answer?

22        A.   Yes, he stayed on because in the Sarajevo barracks quite a number

23     of cadets from the Yugoslav Army was blocked in the barracks and

24     officers' families.  So he stayed on until the end of May, until these

25     people were pulled out.

Page 4612

 1        Q.   Thank you.  General, the Army of Republika Srpska, did it have --

 2     establish military corps?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us how many there were and how they were organised?

 5     I know that it wasn't within your remit, but as a high-ranking officer I

 6     assume you have basic information about that.

 7        A.   As far as I remember, at the beginning of the war there were four

 8     basic military courts:  Banja Luka; Bijeljina; Sarajevo, or Sokolac, I'm

 9     not quite sure; and Bileca.  And then sometime in the middle of the war

10     the military court in Bileca, I think it was, was abolished and the basic

11     military court in Sarajevo took over its affairs.

12        Q.   Were there any higher military courts or high military courts or

13     anything like that?  Supreme military court, did that exist?

14        A.   There was a supreme military court, yes.

15        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, these military courts, were they

16     in charge of dealing with crimes which the members of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska committed, for example, against the civilian

18     population or against prisoners of war to the best of your knowledge?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it true and correct that at a point in time all the trials of

21     Serbs or members of the Army of Republika Srpska for crimes against other

22     nations were stopped and that the trials and cases were activated only

23     ten years later?

24        A.   Yes, the trials were interrupted during the war.  I can't

25     remember exactly when that occurred, but I do know that they were

Page 4613

 1     reactivated -- I reactivated them as minister of defence of

 2     Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   Do you know why they were interrupted?

 4        A.   No, I don't.

 5        Q.   In the intervening years, did you perhaps learn who issued the

 6     order to stop the trials of crimes committed?

 7        A.   I know that General Mladic did not.  Now, who did, I really don't

 8     know.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Your Honours, if I

10     might confer.

11                      [Simatovic Defence counsel and Simatovic accused confer]

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

13     further questions for this witness.

14        Q.   Thank you, General.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, Mr. Petrovic, what you want to do

16     with P59.  You asked it to be shown on the screen, but do you want to

17     have it admitted into evidence or ...

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to my

19     records this has already been admitted.  If I'm mistaken, then I would

20     like to tender it into evidence.  But if I'm not mistaken, I think it has

21     already been admitted.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it has been marked for identification.

23             Is there any objection to admission?

24             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour, the Prosecution originally

25     tendered it.

Page 4614

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             So, Stanisic Defence?

 3             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So your position has changed since the

 5     27th of August where you were objecting and wanted it to be MFI'd until

 6     completion of cross-examination of the witness through which it was

 7     tendered?

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, it has changed --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It has changed, yes.

10             MR. JORDASH: -- having listened to the cross-examination today.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then P59 is admitted into evidence.

12             Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, earlier today by e-mail I notified the

14     Chamber and Defence counsel of my intention to ask permission to re-open

15     my direct examination to ask about an abbreviation found in the Mladic

16     diary.  I've been informed by both Defence teams that they do not oppose

17     this request, so I'm asking the Court permission to ask a question with

18     respect to that abbreviation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Permission is granted.

20                           Examination by Mr. Groome: [Continued]

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   General Milovanovic, last week I showed you two diaries, and you

23     recognised the handwriting of the author as General Ratko Mladic.  We saw

24     from your answers last week that General Mladic identified the speakers

25     at meetings by their name or by their initials.

Page 4615

 1             My question to you is:  How did General Mladic refer to you?  I

 2     would ask that you simply tell us the convention that he used and provide

 3     us with a brief explanation, if possible.  If a lengthy explanation is

 4     required, the Chamber might consider it prudent to do that in private

 5     session.  Can you please briefly describe how General Mladic refers to

 6     you in his diaries?

 7        A.   NS, standing for the Chief of Staff.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Groome:

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on pages 4531 to 32 of the transcript,

10     Mr. Jordash yesterday explored with you your first meeting with

11     Mr. Stanisic, and in particular Badza's statement "I arrived here with my

12     boss," and suggested to you that Badza was at that time the deputy

13     minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia and in fact held a

14     higher position than Stanisic.  Did Jovica Stanisic during this meeting

15     do anything which indicated to you that he considered Badza to be more

16     senior than himself?

17        A.   No.  The two of them did not speak to each other, at least not at

18     that meeting.  There was no way for me to conclude who is whose boss or

19     if indeed anybody was anybody else's boss.

20        Q.   Did you at any time during your stay at Mount Tara see

21     Zoran Sokolovic?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   How long all together were you present on Mount Tara at that

24     time?

25        A.   From 1400 hours to 1700 hours, which means until dusk, I was in

Page 4616

 1     the helicopter.  I had to return during day-time.

 2        Q.   Mr. Jordash suggested to you that Minister Sokolovic was in

 3     Bajina Basta that day.  Are you able to tell us how far apart are

 4     Mount Tara and the town of Bajina Basta?

 5        A.   I don't know how communication went between Hotel Mark and

 6     Bajina Basta, how far they were from each other, but as the crow flies it

 7     was about 20 kilometres or so.

 8        Q.   Now, yesterday Mr. Jordash asked you a number of questions

 9     related to Naser Oric and crimes perpetrated by him in the area of

10     Skelani.  I want to verify a passage with you.  The record at page 4505,

11     lines 13 and 14, records you as saying the following:

12             "He," referring to Naser Oric, "he organised something that the

13     Muslims called Patriotic League or the Red Berets that preceded the

14     official establishment of the BiH Army."

15             My question for you is the following:  Is it your evidence that

16     the members of the Patriotic League were also known as the Red Berets, or

17     is that an error in the transcript?

18        A.   I believe that there is an error in the transcript.  And there is

19     another mistake in something else.

20        Q.   Can I ask you to give us the correction of this error, and then

21     I'll ask you what the other error is that you've identified.

22        A.   They did not wear red berets.  I really don't know what was the

23     context where you found this.

24        Q.   And you've just told us that you recall another error.  Can you

25     please tell us or describe what that error is.

Page 4617

 1        A.   Not that I remembered, but I simply concluded based on your

 2     question.  Naser Oric did not establish either the Patriotic League or

 3     the Green Berets.  The Patriotic League was established by the first

 4     commander of the so-called Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sefer Halilovic.

 5     I probably meant, when it came to Oric, that the soldiers under his

 6     command were members of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets.  I was

 7     talking in general terms about Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They were just

 8     one element or part of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, yesterday at pages 4512 to 4514 of the

10     transcript, Mr. Jordash asked you a number of questions related to a

11     video he identified as V000-2061 but did not show you.  On page 4514 you

12     attempted to describe what you recalled seeing on the tape.  I want to

13     now play you an excerpt that is approximately one minute long from that

14     tape and ask you to verify is this the video that you and Mr. Jordash

15     were discussing yesterday.

16             MR. GROOME:  I would ask Mr. Laugel at this time to play

17     65 ter 1561.1.  It is an extract of a larger video.  The clip that he

18     will play is from one hour, 44 minutes, and 20 seconds, to one hour,

19     45 minutes, and 32 seconds in the original.  The Prosecution does not

20     seek to rely on what the speakers say, and it will be played without

21     sound.

22             I apologise.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's only now that the French booth has

25     finished its translation.

Page 4618

 1             MR. GROOME:

 2        Q.   General, since we are not listening to the audio here, can I ask

 3     you, is this the video that you were referring to in response to

 4     Mr. Jordash's questions?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And can I ask you to tell us the people that you recognise on

 7     this video?

 8        A.   I can see Nikola Sainovic on the screen at the moment.  As for

 9     the other people surrounding him, I don't know any of them.  And I also

10     see the forehead belonging to Jovica Stanisic.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

12     clip 1561.1 into evidence.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just take brief instructions, please?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15                      [Stanisic Defence counsel and Stanisic accused confer]

16             MR. JORDASH:  May I inquire, first of all -- I'm not exactly sure

17     what the Prosecution to show, so that would be my first query.  If it's

18     to show that Mr. Stanisic was present, there's no dispute about that.

19     There is another concern, which is that the video earlier on that shows

20     the minister present, Sokolovic, which is what we were discussing

21     yesterday.  So at the moment we object because it casts an impartial --

22     an incomplete picture, and we're not sure what the Prosecution want to do

23     with it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I simply want to clarify what was

Page 4619

 1     discussed yesterday.  If -- I understand Mr. Jordash's point, he believes

 2     that maybe more of the video should be shown.  I'm happy that the exhibit

 3     be marked for identification now and then whatever portion of this video

 4     Mr. Jordash wishes to have included in the excerpt, I'm happy to do that

 5     and report back to the Chamber next week.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think at this moment -- let me just check.  One

 7     second.

 8             MR. GROOME:  I'm also prepared to agree, at this point, on the

 9     record, that Zoran Sokolovic is on the videotape earlier on and is

10     present at this function, if that satisfies Mr. Jordash's concern.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well the first purpose, from what I understand,

12     is that where you referred to a video, Mr. Groome now plays it and says:

13     Was this in your understanding the video you were asked about.  So that

14     has now been settled.  The presence of Mr. Stanisic appears to be

15     something there is no dispute about.

16             Now, the third matter, would you be happy with, or does it add to

17     your concern what Mr. Groome just stipulated?

18             MR. JORDASH:  No, if it's the Prosecution's intent to identify

19     for the Court what it was we were discussing yesterday in a clearer way

20     and the Prosecution are happy to make that admission, then we have no

21     objection.

22             MR. GROOME:  That is what I wanted, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's then clear.

24             Then I hear of no objections from the Simatovic Defence.

25             Mr. Registrar, the number of this video-clip which is played

Page 4620

 1     without sound would be ...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P00398.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P398 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, the Prosecution at this time asks that

 5     65 ter 1802 be placed on the screen for the witness to see.

 6        Q.   General Milovanovic, yesterday Mr. Jordash at pages 4490 to 4492

 7     asked you questions about Red Berets in the Skelani area and what you

 8     knew about them.  I would like you to take a look at 65 ter 1802, which

 9     is now appearing on the screen before you.  Please read it.  And when you

10     are done so, please advise us whether you believe the document to be

11     authentic.

12        A.   Sir.

13             Yes, I've read it.

14        Q.   And are you able to tell -- there's several pages to this

15     document.  Perhaps if we could go to the last page, it has a stamp on it.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Before we do that, I have an objection to the

17     course the Prosecution wishes to take.  And the objection is this, that

18     I'm wondering if the General might be asked to remove his headphones.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I would not be surprised if he understands or speaks

20     English.

21             Mr. Milovanovic, do you understand and speak English?

22             Do you speak or understand any English?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, neither.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could you please take off your earphones.

25             MR. JORDASH:  The objection is this, that the witness was indeed

Page 4621

 1     asked about Red Berets in the Skelani area at, Your Honours, page 4490

 2     going into 4491.  And I asked the witness whether he'd heard of a camp of

 3     Red Berets established and headed by Nikola Pupovac, one of

 4     Captain Dragan's pupils.  And the witness answered:

 5             "I heard about that," looking at line 4, "I heard about that

 6     between the 16th and the 21st of January."

 7             So the witness confirmed that is what he'd heard about the

 8     Red Berets being headed by Nikola Pupovac.  Now, my learned friend it

 9     seems is trying to contradict his own witness by putting in evidence that

10     a group of Red Berets was, in fact, headed by Bozovic --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, is he, in this respect, his own witness --

12             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You raised the matter, isn't it?  You put these

14     questions to him because you expected the witness to have knowledge which

15     would be in support of your case, to the extent it was not an issue

16     raised by the Prosecution.  And therefore they're not turning against

17     their own witness, but they are -- Mr. Groome is more or less

18     cross-examining on what you --

19             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- raised.  And therefore, I do not fully understand

21     your objection because it's different if you in re-examination -- than

22     to -- well, more or less -- whether he's contradicting his own witness,

23     as you said, or whether he is challenging what you elicited, which was

24     new and not in the traditional cross-examination, that is, to challenge

25     what the witness had said in chief.

Page 4622

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would, with respect, stick to my objection,

 2     which is that the Prosecution ought not to be given an opportunity in

 3     re-examination to cross-examine their witness on issues they don't like.

 4     What they ought to do during re-examination is clarify issues for the

 5     Court, not simply say:  Well, we don't like that piece of evidence, let's

 6     cross-examine the witness we called to testify.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that mean that whatever you raised with the

 8     witness as not in response to what has been said, not challenging either

 9     substance or credibility or reliability of the witness or what he said in

10     chief, that the Prosecution would have no opportunity to challenge the

11     evidence which was then elicited newly in cross-examination under

12     Rule 90(H)?  That's a rather fundamental question I would say.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Well, thinking about the jurisprudence, I think

14     it's clearly something which different Trial Chambers do differently.  In

15     some Trial Chambers they would not permit re-examination to extend to

16     cross-examination by the tendering party.  My experience of

17     Trial Chambers is that almost always re-examination is limited to

18     clarifying issues which have arisen during cross-examination, but not

19     seeking during that process to controvert one's own witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just -- Mr. Groome.

21             MR. GROOME:  I don't understand how I'm trying to controvert my

22     own witness.  Over two pages of transcript were devoted to the Red Berets

23     and what was their organisational structure in Skelani.  I didn't lead

24     that evidence.  I believe there's confusion around that issue now, and

25     there's a report by the Army of Republika Srpska that spells out what

Page 4623

 1     they knew about these Red Berets in the Skelani area in May of 1993.  I'm

 2     just seeking to clarify that point, and I think the easiest way to do it

 3     is to simply have the witness verify the authenticity of the document and

 4     introduce it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me confer with my colleagues first.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber's ruling is that the objection is

 8     denied.  The matter on which the -- Mr. Groome now examines the witness

 9     was brought up by the Defence and was not in response to a matter which

10     was raised in the examination-in-chief; and under those circumstances,

11     the Chamber considers it fair that Mr. Groome further examines the

12     witness.

13             Therefore, you may proceed.

14             But we'd invite -- Mr. Milovanovic, could you put on your

15     earphones again.

16             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we go to the last page in that

17     document.

18        Q.   General Milovanovic, I've asked that the last page of the

19     document be shown to you.  There is an endorsement or a stamp on that

20     last page, and ask you to look at that endorsement and see whether you

21     are now able to make an assessment as to whether this document is an

22     authentic one?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And does this document provide a contemporaneous report about

25     what was known about the Red Beret unit in Skelani during the period

Page 4624

 1     covered by the report?

 2        A.   Could you please tell me or could you please return the heading

 3     of this document.  I am interested in the date.  The date will allow me

 4     to answer your question.

 5             Very well.  I believe that this document is indeed authentic.

 6        Q.   And is it a contemporaneous report about what was known about the

 7     Red Beret unit in Skelani during this period?

 8        A.   I believe that this is an interim report sent by the commander of

 9     the Skelani Battalion to the commander of the Drina Corps at their

10     special request.  This does not belong to the group of regular combat

11     reports.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I would tender 65 ter 1802

13     into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

15             Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

16             THE REGISTRAR:  P00399.  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P399 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Now, General, near the end of the hearings yesterday Mr. Jordash

20     asked you a number of questions related to Operation Pauk.  During the

21     course of these questions you referred at page 4540, line 12 of the

22     transcript to being tricked into attending a meeting held on the

23     8th of November, 1994, in Slunj and attended by 11 officers and

24     Fikret Abdic and Jovica Stanisic.  Do you recall giving that evidence?

25        A.   Yes, I remember.  I said 11 officers of Fikret Abdic, meaning

Page 4625

 1     11 Muslim officers, amongst others.

 2        Q.   Now, so that the record is clear, this is a different meeting

 3     than the one you described last week held in Petrova Gora in

 4     February 1995; is that correct?

 5        A.   That meeting preceded the meeting in Petrova Gora.  The

 6     difference between the two was about four months.

 7        Q.   So you met with Jovica Stanisic on two occasions in relation to

 8     Operation Pauk; is that correct?

 9        A.   Correct.  On the first occasion we didn't speak, we both listened

10     to the others; and on the second occasion, we did speak.

11        Q.   Now, in your discussion with Mr. Jordash about this November 1994

12     meeting, you said something I want to clarify.  At page 4542 of the

13     transcript on lines 1 to 4 you said the following:

14             "The Serb army of the Krajina wanted to resuscitate

15     Fikret Abdic's army, and for that purpose I was supposed to give them

16     6.000 barrels and Celeketic would give them 5.000 and that I was supposed

17     to launch an offensive towards Bihac with my forces."

18             Can you clarify what you were referring to when you said

19     6.000 barrels and 5.000 barrels?

20        A.   I meant rifles.

21        Q.   Now, my last question to you here today is:  Mr. Petrovic asked

22     you to characterise the Pauk operation and you did so at page 27, line 1,

23     of today's transcript as follows:

24             "It was a temporary force to carry out a certain task."

25             My question to you is the following:  Do you know whether

Page 4626

 1     Novakovic's authority over non-VRS personnel during Operation Pauk was

 2     temporary in nature or -- temporary in nature for that specific operation

 3     or was of some more permanent nature?

 4        A.   It was a bit more permanent.  If you were following my testimony

 5     today, there was a document in front of me that was my order to the

 6     command of the 2nd Corps and the 1st Corps.  And the order was to

 7     resubordinate one corps --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the numbers of

 9     units.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- for those to be resubordinated

11     to General Novakovic.  And from that moment until the end of the mission,

12     General Novakovic was in command of those units.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milovanovic, could you please repeat the numbers

14     that were part of your answer.

15             MR. GROOME:

16        Q.   General, the interpreters didn't understand the numbers that you

17     referred to.  I think you were referring to or you were identifying

18     different corps.

19        A.   I'm waiting for the signal to be able to start to speak.  Okay.

20     Now I have it.

21             The following were resubordinated to the Pauk Operative Group:

22     One battalion from the 16th Motorised Brigade of the 1st Krajina Corps

23     and one battalion from the 11th Krupa Brigade of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

24        Q.   My follow-up question then is:  If members of those non-VRS units

25     were transferred away from the area before the completion of Pauk, would

Page 4627

 1     General Novakovic have retained operational control over those non-VRS

 2     personnel?

 3        A.   No.  Those battalions were resubordinated to him only for that

 4     particular mission, and the mission was to break-up the 5th Corps.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has no questions.

 9             Mr. Jordash, if you have any questions which were triggered by

10     the re-examination, please proceed.  Let's keep an eye on the clock.  How

11     much time would you need?

12             MR. JORDASH:  It's a very discreet issue.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because we have to deal with scheduling issues

14     as well.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I'll be extremely brief.  Thank you.

16                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

17        Q.   Could I refer you back to the report we have just looked at,

18     Mr. Milovanovic, P399.  And you make the point that from your expertise

19     it's an interim report which did not belong to the group of regular

20     combat reports.  What's the significance of it being an interim report

21     rather than a regular combat report?

22        A.   An interim report is sent when something needs to be specially

23     explained about what's happening at the front, that kind of thing.  And I

24     said - and I stand by that - that the Drina Corps command asked for a

25     report about the behaviour and conduct of the Red Berets from the local

Page 4628

 1     commander.  Now, whether anybody asked the Drina Corps, the

 2     Army of Republika Srpska, that is not something we can see from this

 3     document.  But we do see that the commander of the Drina Corps requested

 4     information about the conduct of the Red Berets.

 5        Q.   Would there normally be a follow-up report on such an interim

 6     report?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Nothing further.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

10             No further questions by the Simatovic Defence.

11             Mr. Milovanovic, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I

12     would like to thank you very much for -- not only for coming but having

13     to wait for quite a while in The Hague and having received homework to be

14     done.  I would like to thank you very much for having answered the

15     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench.

16             I am just addressing the parties for one second.  In view of the

17     new material that has arrived and which would not exclude for the

18     possibility that further questions may be put to this witness in relation

19     to that material as well, that it is so uncertain that I would not give

20     any specific instructions about contacts the witness may have.

21             Mr. Groome, is that --

22             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution would agree with that approach,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             And the Defence as well?

Page 4629

 1             MR. JORDASH:  We agree with that as well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Under those circumstances, I'll refrain from giving

 3     any further instructions.

 4             Mr. Milovanovic, I had to raise this small procedural issue which

 5     remains without any consequences.

 6             Finally, I was informed that there's a fair chance that you'll

 7     get a flight tomorrow so that you are home again as soon as possible.

 8     You are excused.  Could you please follow the usher.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the last matter I'd like to raise is the

12     agreement which was reached between the parties as to the next witness to

13     be called.  The Chamber understands that the parties would agree to the

14     following, that is, that Witness JF-049 would be rescheduled to the week

15     of the 17th of May, provided that there could be a third day of

16     proceedings to be added to the schedule of that week and also the week

17     after that, the 24th of May.  Further, the Prosecution will redact,

18     although from what I see, a limited portion of the new 92 ter statement.

19     The Stanisic and Simatovic Defence would then agree to sit a third day

20     during that week.

21             Mr. Stanisic, I hope you were consulted on that, but there is a

22     fair chance that we would then sit three days the week of the 17th and

23     the week of the 24th of May and that under those circumstances the

24     opposition to the admission of the 8th of April, 2010, statement of

25     Witness JF-049 would be withdrawn.  And the same would be true for the

Page 4630

 1     associated exhibits related to that 92 ter statement.

 2             Now as a -- finally then Witness JF-032 would then be called to

 3     give testimony next week.  Now, from what I've seen, Witness 32 is --

 4     there's quite a lot of material, 92 ter material, presented in relation

 5     to that witness.  Also, I do understand that the substance of the

 6     testimony, there are no [sic] protective measures for that from what I --

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I can just check, but I believe

 8     there are protective measures.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There are -- I didn't say that there are no

10     protective measures.

11             MR. GROOME:  Oh, I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It was voice distortion, face distortion, pseudonym,

13     but not private or closed session, although portions of the evidence may

14     be given in private or closed session.

15             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That witness has been scheduled for two hours

17     examination-in-chief.  We have two days available next week.  Could the

18     Defence teams, who apparently -- are aware of Witness D -- 32 to replace

19     Witness JF-049.  How much time would they need for cross-examination of

20     this witness as far as matters stand now?  Could we conclude the

21     testimony of that witness if the Prosecution takes two hours within those

22     two days?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I think so.  I'm fairly confident we could.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we'll be able

25     to complete the cross-examination within two days as well.  And if I

Page 4631

 1     might add, I am fully conscious that my English is far from perfect but I

 2     think that we did manage to reach an agreement with our learned friends

 3     of the Prosecution that one day next week will be given to 042,

 4     Witness 042, and not in two weeks -- or did I understand it wrongly?  It

 5     says here that we're going to have the week beginning of the 17th and the

 6     week beginning of the 24th, to have them in both weeks.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's at least what appears in an e-mail that was

 8     forwarded to the Chamber and which originates from Mr. Weber and is

 9     addressed to Mr. Knoops and Mr. Bakrac.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, so the agreement as I understand it is

11     that we would proceed with 32.  We would not begin 49's testimony until

12     the week of the 17th.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the -- yes.  A third day would be provided,

14     then, for the week of the 17th and also for the week of the 24th.  I

15     don't know for what purpose exactly but that apparently is --

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, it's --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Still for --

18             MR. GROOME:  It's to avoid having to reschedule all the

19     10 witnesses that would follow.  So we would appreciate --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in order to --

21             MR. GROOME:  It's a request rather than a --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  To plug JF-049 in the existing schedule rather than

23     move all the witnesses.

24             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's then clear.

Page 4632

 1             Yes.

 2             MR. KNOOPS:  If possible - we understand the problems of the

 3     Prosecution - but if possible if the Prosecution could look for just this

 4     day in the week of the 17th of May and not the 24th, if that's possible,

 5     because of the -- also condition of Mr. Stanisic.  That's our request, to

 6     take that into consideration.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I think it was for both weeks, so not for

 8     the one week or the other, but for both weeks a third day.

 9             MR. GROOME:  It's our estimate that JF-049 would take two days,

10     and that's why I was suggesting two days.  But I can work out those

11     details with Mr. Knoops next week.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, finally, I have to -- of course, most of

13     the Judges sitting in this case -- all of the Judges sitting in this case

14     have other cases ongoing.  We have a fair expectation that we could sit

15     for a third day in those weeks, and we commit ourselves to do our utmost

16     best to make that possible.  But some decisions still have to be taken in

17     other cases which we do not expect to influence our expectation that we

18     could sit three days during the week of the 17th and the 24th, but we

19     cannot exclude that for the full hundred per cent.  But our commitment is

20     fully there and our expectations are high.

21             Any other matter?  I'm not encouraging you to do it because my

22     bad reputation will be reconfirmed, that is, to go beyond the scheduled

23     time.  If not, we adjourn.  And we'll resume on Monday, the 3rd of May,

24     quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom II.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

Page 4633

 1                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of

 2                           May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.