1 Tuesday, 4 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
7 you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, everyone in and around the
9 courtroom. Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I would like to briefly
12 move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 4715 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 WITNESS: JF-032 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. I want to return to the issue of --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Jordash, I first remind the witness.
17 Witness JF-032, I would like to remind you that you are still bound by
18 the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. JORDASH:
22 Q. I want to return very briefly, Mr. Witness, to the issue we
23 touched on yesterday concerning what assistance, if any, the Prosecution
24 had given you in relation to relocation. Let me emphasise that I'm not
25 in the slightest bit interested in where you were or were not located to.
1 Do you follow me?
2 A. I understand you. I believe the Judge explained it a minute ago.
3 And if the Bench will allow me, I can amend what has been said.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what -- I'd like to return into private session
5 for a second again.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 4718-4725 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Thank you. I'm reading from page 10 of the witness's 2003
10 statement number 02942347 at the top right-hand corner. This is what the
11 witness says in his statement at paragraph 56:
12 "There were Territorial Defence staffs in the territories that
13 were freed and they were responsible to the minister of defence,
14 Ilija Kojic. He was the one who co-ordinated the Territorial Defence
15 with the JNA."
16 Do you agree with that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I'll read on:
19 "He," Ilija Kojic, "was responsible to the government and he
20 reported to the government."
21 Do you agree with that?
22 A. Whether he was responsible to the government, I suppose so.
23 Whether he reported to the government, I can't answer that.
24 Q. You are not aware of whether Ilija Kojic reported to the
25 government; is that your evidence? Please think carefully. He was the
1 minister of defence, wasn't he?
2 A. Yes, that was his position. I suppose that he must have reported
3 to the government, that's why I'm telling you that I'm not sure how he
4 did that, but I suppose that he did submit reports to the government.
5 Q. I'll read on:
6 "Ilija Kojic, however, could not do anything without the
7 knowledge of the JNA."
8 Do you agree with that?
9 A. I can't say whether he could do it without the JNA, on his own
10 with the government. Your question is very strange, to say the least. I
11 really can't answer your question with either yes or no.
12 Q. You don't have to answer it with yes or no. You can answer it in
13 the best way you can. Do you know whether he could do anything without
14 the knowledge of the JNA? If you don't know, please say you don't know.
15 A. Well, I suppose it would be better to say I don't know.
16 Q. I read on:
17 "Nothing could be done without the JNA's approval."
18 Was that something you perceived?
19 A. You would have to be more precise and you would have to indicate
20 the month when that was happening. In the months of April and May,
21 things went on without the JNA. But after the death of Commander Selak
22 things took a different course, when that other person that we are
23 talking about took over from him.
24 Q. Okay. Let me try a different approach. Prior to the formation
25 of the SBWS government there was a national council, was there not?
1 A. I've never heard of a national council before, believe me.
2 Q. You never heard of a national council which was the precursor to
3 the government of the SAO SBWS? You seriously never heard of it?
4 A. Seriously. Maybe that's what they called themselves and maybe
5 that's how it was defined later, but at that time, at the very beginning,
6 I never heard of a national council.
7 Q. Okay. Did you hear about the SDS meeting in which there was a
8 decision to form the government of the SAO SBWS, in May of 1991?
9 A. I don't know. It's very difficult to answer that question. I
10 did not participate in any of that. That did not concern me at all, so I
11 really can't answer your question.
12 Q. Well, let's see if you can answer this: Can you confirm
13 Goran Hadzic was the prime minister of the SAO SBWS?
14 A. Yes, I can answer that.
15 Q. Can you confirm that there was a deputy prime minister?
16 A. Well, you see, I can't confirm that. I really don't know who
17 deputy prime minister was.
18 Q. No, I'm not asking you his name. I'm going to leave that out for
19 another witness. I just want you to confirm whether you do or do not
20 know whether there was a deputy prime minister in the SAO SBWS
22 A. I was not aware of that position and I don't know of it.
23 Q. You know that Borislav Bogunovic was the minister of the police,
24 you know that?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. You know that there was a minister of justice, do you know that?
2 A. All ministerial offices were in place, but that was already
3 sometime in July or August. You are not giving me any time indications
4 and your terminology is confusing.
5 Q. Can you confirm that the SAO SBWS government would meet on a
6 regular basis to make decisions about the administration of the territory
7 in 1991?
8 A. The government did meet on a regular basis, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you give me one second.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you said you quoted from a statement
12 the Chamber is not aware of. Is that a statement still to come, is that
13 what you are --
14 MR. JORDASH: It is, yes, I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's rather confusing for us.
16 MR. JORDASH: I beg your pardon.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But now at least I understand why I can't --
18 MR. JORDASH: I do apologise.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear to me now and it doesn't make life easy
20 for us.
21 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I'm not going to return to that because it
22 was obviously --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Fine, but I was just trying to understand where I
24 got lost. But we are back on track. Please proceed.
25 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
1 Q. Let me take you to your own statement, Mr. Witness. The first
2 statement you gave to the Prosecution --
3 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, Exhibit P401.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Which is under seal.
5 MR. JORDASH: Under seal, yes, Your Honour. And I'm referring
6 now to page 4 of the English version and page 3 of the B/C/S. Could I
7 have that on e-court, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but not to be shown to the public.
9 MR. JORDASH: I think actually we should have page 4 of the
10 B/C/S, and it's paragraph 1.
11 Q. Can you see the top paragraph where it says, I hope:
12 "Goran Hadzic was the one who appointed me to this position on
13 behalf of the government of SAO Krajina."
14 Have you found that?
15 A. Yes, I found it.
16 Q. Just reading on:
17 "When the meeting finished, Ante, Goran Hadzic, and a number of
18 people," who I won't read out, "had another meeting."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Farr.
20 MR. FARR: Can we move into private session for just a moment.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 4731-4804 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 In a minute we'll adjourn. At the same time, I would like to
15 express that the Chamber regrets that we have not found yet a moment
16 where we would allow you to speak, Mr. Simatovic, as you requested and as
17 was granted. We hope that we'll find the opportunity soon, but I hope
18 that you'll have some understanding for the fact that we'll not keep the
19 interpreters and transcribers and everyone who is here.
20 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to make life
22 easier for the Trial Chamber and give it more time for other things,
23 Mr. Simatovic no longer wishes to take the floor. There will be no need
24 for my client to address the Court after such a long time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that we didn't force you more or less in this
1 situation of leniency towards the Chamber, but I can imagine that some
2 elements in a recently filed motion reflect what you may have had on your
3 mind, that is a motion in which orders are sought under Rule 54.
4 I would like to thank the interpreters, transcriber, but also
5 security, technicians, all those who have stayed with us again for
6 another 8 late minutes. And we adjourn and we resume on Wednesday, the
7 12th of May, quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom II.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of May,
10 2010, at 2.15 p.m.