Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4887

 1                           Thursday, 13 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9             Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom.

10            This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

11     and Franko Simatovic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             Before we continue -- and Witness JF-038 this is not in relation

14     to your testimony, but I would like to inform the parties that the

15     Prosecution's motion for leave to amend the 65 ter summary for

16     Witness JF-033, which was filed on the 7th of May, is granted.  I add to

17     this that the Defence objections are denied because the real issue, and

18     that became clear and doesn't come as a surprise, the real issue was not

19     whether the language of the 65 ter summary would change but what

20     consequences that would have for the proceedings, and the Chamber will

21     give the reasons for this decision in writing and that will follow soon.

22             Then, Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue your

23     cross-examination?

24             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then Witness JF-038, I would like to remind

Page 4888

 1     you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

 2     yesterday at the beginning of your testimony, that is, that you'll speak

 3     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           WITNESS:  JF-038 [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:  [Continued]

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Please could I have 65 ter 1D244 on the e-court,

12     please.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The background noise is

14     very strong and it makes it quite difficult to interpret what Mr. Jordash

15     is saying.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear no background noise myself, so I don't know

17     what causes it.  Is there background noise when I speak as well?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Not, Your Honour.  So far it's while

19     Mr. Jordash is speaking.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Jordash, there's something in your

21     background which causes problems.

22             MR. JORDASH:  It's probably Mr. Bakrac.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot make out what I see on the

24     screen.  Can you blow it up a bit, please?

25             MR. JORDASH:  I'm going to continue, Your Honour, but our screen

Page 4889

 1     isn't working, but I've got a paper copy so as long as everything else

 2     is, I can continue for a moment.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'm in a similar position, that it says

 4     "no computer evidence," but now it appears on my screen.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, so it does here.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as the background noise is concerned, if

 7     I plug in on my voice distorted socket, I have background as well.  If,

 8     however, I plug in at the usual socket, I have hardly or no background

 9     noise.

10             MR. JORDASH:

11        Q.   Do you see this document, Mr. Witness?  And you see the first

12     paragraph which --

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   -- refers to a session of the SFRY Presidency of the

15     20th February, 1992, and the conclusions therein involving the setting up

16     of the task force within the federal Secretariat of the Interior composed

17     of representatives of the relevant organs of the Serbian Krajinas and

18     experts of the federal Secretariat of the Interior.  Its task being to

19     study and prepare a draft bill regulating the Internal Affairs Service in

20     the Republic of Serbian Krajina and to propose the basic organisational

21     structure of the service.  Were you aware of these conclusions at or

22     thereabouts when they were reached?

23        A.   No, I'm not.

24        Q.   Are you in any way familiar with this document?

25             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we scroll the B/C/S and the English so

Page 4890

 1     we can see the first page so the witness can read what's contained

 2     therein.

 3        Q.   So, witness, can I ask you - if you don't know anything about

 4     this document, then you don't know.  Do you know about the involvement of

 5     the federal Secretariat of the Interior with the setting up of the MUP of

 6     the Serbian Krajina?

 7        A.   Well, it's been quite a while since then, so I really can't

 8     recall.  I could not really explain the details, but I'm not aware of

 9     these matters.  Perhaps there were -- there was co-operation in the

10     organising of the public security service, but as for the state security

11     service, I'm not familiar that there was any such thing.

12        Q.   So you are familiar with the co-operation, in fact more than

13     co-operation, I suggest, deep involvement of the federal SUP in the

14     setting up of the Serbian Krajina's Ministry of Interior as per this

15     document and as per the conclusions it refers to?

16        A.   Perhaps I should give a broader explanation here.  I don't know

17     how familiar you are with all this, but I've to reiterate, as for the

18     work of the state security service, I think it wasn't frequent.  As for

19     public security service, I'm not really competent to speak about that.

20             And I would like to add something.  I clearly remember that when

21     we prepared a letter or communication to be sent to other republics, we

22     would always indicate that the recipients are six republics and two

23     anonymous provinces, at least when I worked in the service that was the

24     format I used.  And I have to repeat again this relates to the work of

25     the state security service.  As for the public security service, I

Page 4891

 1     wouldn't know about that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for me to understand your question, you talked

 3     in your last question about a deep involvement.  I have not had an

 4     opportunities to read the whole of the document, but it looks at if the

 5     task is to study and prepare a draft bill regulating the Internal Affairs

 6     and to propose the basic organisational structure of the service, where

 7     earlier you said deep involvement of the federal SUP in the setting up of

 8     the service.  Is there any disagreement that this is defining structural

 9     elements and legislation which is, well, it's one element of setting up

10     an organisation?

11             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that was my point, the deep involvement of the

12     federal SUP and the setting up of the Ministry of the Interior of the

13     Republic of Serbian Krajina's MUP.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- no, I'm asking this because this looks to be

15     very much administrative support, what legislation do we need, what

16     should be the organisational structure; which is, of course, something

17     different than how do we recruit the people, how do we -- you mean

18     setting up is a rather ambiguous term.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I was hoping that the witness would clarify

20     what his understanding was.  I was putting a general proposition and

21     hoping the witness could be more specific about it, but since the --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if that was what you had on mind, then I leave

23     it to that.  Perhaps I would focus the question a bit more on that:  What

24     do you understand by this and this and this.  But please proceed.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

Page 4892

 1        Q.   If your position, Mr. Witness, is that you do not know much about

 2     this co-operation, then I'll move on from this document.  Is that your

 3     position?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this exhibit, please.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  I do object.  There's no foundation laid by this

 7     witness.  He's not familiar with this document.  He's not familiar with

 8     the content of the document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you object against a bar table submission?

10             MR. HOFFMANN:  If we clarify the issue of where this document is

11     coming from, then we can do that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The document is not dated, but from its content it

13     seems that it must be in between the meeting referred to and what has

14     been done at the next session in, where was it, in -- I think it was

15     in --

16             MR. JORDASH:  26th of February.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in Vukovar.  Origin, Mr. --

18             MR. JORDASH:  We obtained it from the EDS system.  And Your

19     Honour can see from the top -- well, Your Honour can't see on the screen,

20     but on the top right-hand corner of the English version is the ERN number

21     or the signifying number L004-6625.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, did you upload it in the EDS?

23             MR. HOFFMANN:  I was about to add that, just in my previous

24     answer, that in fact we have it in the system and the information we have

25     in the system indicates, if I'm not mistaken, that we received this

Page 4893

 1     document actually from the accused Jovica Stanisic in 2001.  Now, this is

 2     something I cannot verify this moment.  Obviously I cannot verify where

 3     the accused got this document from.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- it's -- it is clear that the witness cannot

 5     say anything about the document.  At the same time, the document at

 6     least, as far as the content is concerned, seems to relate to what is in

 7     the knowledge of this witness.  Therefore, if there's no challenge to

 8     authenticity and if we do have sufficient information about who created

 9     the document, what was the purpose of the document, it seems to be a kind

10     of a work document, that's at least what it looks like, it's not signed

11     by anyone.  I could have a look at the original, but I suggest that we

12     mark it for identification, that the parties would continue their

13     discussions on where it comes from and what it really means, and that we

14     then decide on admission.

15             Madam Registrar, this document to be marked for identification

16     would receive number ...

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It would be D55, marked for identification,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Could I have, please, on e-court --

22     sorry, we've got hard copies because we only decided to use this at the

23     last minute this morning.  I apologise for that.  While that is being

24     handed out, perhaps we could have on e-court Rule 65 ter 389.

25        Q.   Mr. Witness, before looking at that document --

Page 4894

 1             MR. JORDASH:  While the witness is looking at it, if Your Honours

 2     don't mind we can refer to this document straightaway, the paper copy

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. JORDASH:

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you just have a quick look at this document

 7     dated the 24th of February, 1992, which is in front of you, not on the

 8     e-court, the paper copy.

 9             MR. HOFFMANN:  We haven't received yet a copy of that document.

10     I've received one translation, but I think that is a second document that

11     may be used later.  I haven't seen 65 ter 389 yet in copy.

12             MR. JORDASH:  But 389 --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If we have a look at what we received, the Chamber

14     at this moment received two copies of what appear to be the same

15     document:  one with a blue tab and the other one with a rosa tab, so

16     apparently a boys and a girls version.  Why do we need two, and are they

17     the same?

18             MR. JORDASH:  I think you were supposed to be just given one

19     copy.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. JORDASH:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, I can see you've had a quick flick through this

23     document dated the 24th of February, 1992.  A document it looks as if

24     from the left-hand corner is from the federal Secretariat of the

25     Interior.  Attached on the first -- the front of the document, the MUP of

Page 4895

 1     the Republic of Serbia to Minister Z. Sokolovic, Belgrade.  Attached, we

 2     are sending you the following materials prepared in keeping with the

 3     conclusions of the SFRY from its session of 20th of February, 1992.  Are

 4     you -- and it's signed by -- or certainly stamped and signed by

 5     Petar Gracanin.

 6             Were you aware of this document or the content in which it

 7     purports to describe certain activities?

 8        A.   I was not aware of this document.  I am not aware of it.  But I

 9     can only conclude as it is stated in the last paragraph that these were

10     prepared by a joint Working Group comprising representatives from the

11     corresponding organs from all three fields of the Republic of Serbian

12     Krajina and from the federal Secretariat of the Interior.  And

13     undersigned is Petar Gracanin.  I don't -- I am not aware of it because I

14     did not attend the meeting, but in any case experts were involved in

15     developing this plan, and we had nothing to do with it.  And, in any

16     case, the mail and communications sent from -- by the minister from -- on

17     behalf of the minister never reached our offices.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go into private session, please,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4896











11 Pages 4896-4897 redacted. Private session.















Page 4898

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Could we please have Rule 65 ter 389 on the

17     e-court, please.

18        Q.   Can you please read through this document to yourself.  Indicate

19     when you've finished the first page because there's a second page.

20        A.   Sorry, I can't see again.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Can we magnify that slightly for the witness,

22     please.

23        Q.   Do you want the second page?

24        A.   Yes.  Well, it seems to me on the basis of this material that it

25     has to do with the republican SUP, the government, and the Presidency,

Page 4899

 1     and the Republic of Serbia.  I'm not aware of this material.  I'll not

 2     familiar with this.  I really don't know why you're showing me this,

 3     because I really have no knowledge whatsoever about this material.  All

 4     of these officials were from the Republic of Serbia; there was no one

 5     from my ministry.

 6        Q.   Well, let me just ask you --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  If we go back to the first page of the English

 8     version.

 9        Q.   And I want you to just consider this question.  If I read from

10     the English version the last three lines of the second paragraph, it

11     says -- in reference to creating a defence system of the Krajina and in

12     reference to the meeting involving Milosevic, Prime Minister Bozovic,

13     Hadzic, and so on, and I quote:

14             "It was accepted that the planning of funds for army and police

15     needs should begin immediately as was done in 1992 via the RSK Ministry

16     of Defence and the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia."

17             So my question is:  Were you aware of the planning of the funds

18     for the police through the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia

19     in 1992?

20        A.   I think that you are confusing things.  You are confusing the

21     interior and the Ministry of Defence.  I have nothing whatsoever with the

22     Ministry of Defence of Serbia.  Please, I mean, we can discuss things, we

23     can talk about things, but I don't know about this.

24        Q.   Well, I was focusing more in terms of the police and what you

25     might have known about the funding for the police of the ...

Page 4900

 1        A.   There is no mention of the police here.

 2        Q.   "It was accepted that the planning of funds for army and police

 3     needs should begin immediately as was done in 1992 via the RSK Ministry

 4     of Defence and Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia."

 5             If you don't know how the police were funded, then just say you

 6     don't know and we'll move on.

 7        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Please, could I tender this exhibit, Your Honours.

 9             MR. HOFFMANN:  No objection, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D57, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   Let me turn then to your specific evidence which I hope you will

15     be able to answer some questions on.  Do you accept, Mr. Witness, that by

16     the time the federal MUP building was taken over in Belgrade, the former

17     Yugoslavia as a federal state was no longer in existence?

18        A.   The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that's what existed, not the

19     SFRY.  The FRY existed then and went on for quite a while.

20        Q.   The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia existed in November of 1992;

21     is that what you're stating?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And what did it consist of at that point?

24        A.   That's October.  The Republic of Serbia and the

25     Republic of Montenegro.

Page 4901

 1        Q.   And the Republic of Serbia and the Republic of Montenegro were

 2     co-operating and working together in that federal republic; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  Some people from Montenegro came and worked in the

 5     federal organs still.

 6        Q.   The federal MUP as had existed before the new federal arrangement

 7     no longer existed, did it?  Let me simplify that.  The federal MUP as

 8     existed before the outbreak of war co-ordinated various republics and

 9     regions which no longer needed to be co-ordinated, the federal state now

10     existing of only Serbia and Montenegro; is that correct?

11        A.   The federal MUP did exist.  Of course, they no longer had

12     authority over the republics that had stepped out of the SFRY.  We

13     co-ordinated work in Serbia and Montenegro.  Of course, there were less

14     personnel involved, and the scope of our work was therefore narrower as

15     well.

16        Q.   So the scope of the federal MUP's work consisted at that point,

17     the point when the building was taken over, of co-ordinating Serbia and

18     Montenegrin MUPs; that's it, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So when the Serbian MUP took over the federal MUP building, it

21     was effectively taking over a building rather than any usurpation of

22     federal MUP responsibilities; is that not correct?

23        A.   Well, I cannot give a mere yes or no answer because there are

24     some things there that are unclear.  Beforehand, we had less co-operation

25     with Serbia, before the take-over; but after the take over, there was no

Page 4902

 1     more co-operation with the Serbian SUP and with the security service of

 2     the Republic of Serbia.  At the same time, Montenegro withdrew their

 3     personnel, and we had no more co-operation with Montenegro either.

 4             Some people from the federal ministry transferred to the

 5     republican ministry, some went to Montenegro, and there were very few of

 6     us who were dedicated enough to stay where we had been.  But we no longer

 7     had the same function.

 8        Q.   Most of the non-Serbian and Montenegrin employees of the federal

 9     MUP had left and returned to their various republics prior to the

10     take-over of the federal MUP building by the Serbian MUP; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   The responsibilities left for the federal MUP by the time the

14     building was taken over were extremely limited in scope compared to what

15     had been before the breakdown of the old federal state?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is it correct that within the federal MUP building there were big

18     stores of confidential material, papers, reports, and so on?

19        A.   The federal MUP, I'm talking about the service now, the state

20     security service, it had its own analysis department and its

21     documentation.

22        Q.   And was that documentation going missing?

23        A.   You mean during the take-over?

24        Q.   No.

25        A.   Or before that?

Page 4903

 1        Q.   Before the take-over.  As employees left to go to their

 2     respective republics, was material, confidential -- state confidential

 3     material going missing and being taken to the various republics?

 4        A.   Well, yes, yes.  That was felt.  Some documents had gone missing.

 5     Some files that I could check myself, persons who were of security

 6     interest, for instance, their files, I could no longer access information

 7     about such individuals.

 8        Q.   Was that a concern to the federal MUP that state secret,

 9     confidential material was disappearing out of the federal MUP building?

10        A.   Well, they were concerned.  I mean, I don't know, at that time

11     none of the structures involved didn't do a thing.  Everybody was

12     wondering what was going on, but no one took any steps.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just take instructions, please.

14                      [Stanisic Defence counsel and Stanisic accused confer]

15             MR. JORDASH:

16        Q.   Were you aware of Mr. Spasic, member of the federal DB, being

17     arrested at the border carrying secret and confidential documents taken

18     from the federal MUP?

19        A.   I know Bozidar Spasic who worked with me in my administration.

20     After 1990 when there was this re-organisation, he was attached to my

21     administration, and beforehand he was in the third administration.  If

22     you are talking about Boza Spasic, I know him.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the question was whether you were aware of him

24     being arrested crossing a border in the possession of documents.  Could

25     you please carefully listen to the question and focus your answer on what

Page 4904

 1     is asked.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   Did the federal MUP also contain highly expensive and sensitive

 5     electronic listening devices?

 6        A.   I cannot say, because that is not my line of work.  When I needed

 7     something technical, as it were, I had to address that department with a

 8     request explaining what I needed and when, but I cannot really discuss it

 9     in any specific detail.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's simplify this.  As the federal state broke down, the

11     federal MUP building became vulnerable to thieves, and state confidential

12     material started to disappear; is that fair?

13        A.   It was to start earlier, before the building had actually been

14     taken over; and as the disintegration took place, everything was speeded

15     up, more and more material was taken away and went missing.

16        Q.   So is it fair to say that you were not surprised, you and other

17     colleagues were not surprised that the Serbian MUP came in and took the

18     building over?

19        A.   No, I was surprised.

20        Q.   Well, what had the federal MUP done to protect the state

21     confidential material within the building?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   Had you -- were you aware of an agreement made between Gracanin

24     and Sokolovic that the building belonging to the federal MUP should be

25     taken over by the Serbian MUP?

Page 4905

 1        A.   At the time, Gracanin was not minister of the interior.  I mean,

 2     he was not federal minister of the interior.  It was Pavle Bulatovic.

 3        Q.   An earlier agreement between Gracanin and Sokolovic, an agreement

 4     which had culminated in a court process which the Serbian republic had

 5     won, if I can put it in the colloquial?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   And that the agreement had been formed a year or so before the

 8     building was taken over, but the federal MUP had not kept the agreement;

 9     are you aware of that?

10        A.   I personally was not aware of that.  I believe that other

11     colleagues didn't know about it either because otherwise we would have

12     discussed it at our own level.  We at our level were not aware of that.

13     We were all surprised when we heard that the building had been taken

14     over.  Now, whether there had been some other agreement at a different

15     level, administerial level, I don't know about that.

16        Q.   Okay.  If you don't know, then I'll move on from that subject.

17     With one last issue:  It was the public security who are responsible for

18     taking over the federal MUP building, wasn't it?

19        A.   I cannot confirm that.  However, I can confirm that when I was

20     called in on that day to take my own things there were some people from

21     the state security waiting for me there at that meeting.

22        Q.   What was the role of the state security, according to you?

23        A.   Well, I think it was decisive.

24        Q.   What does that mean?

25        A.   Well, that means that as for my contacts with whom I had worked

Page 4906

 1     together for a while in the service both in Kosovo and Belgrade, I found

 2     them in front of the building on that day.  They were waiting for me

 3     there.  I was surprised, personally.  I mean, if we are in closed

 4     session, I can tell you who these individuals are who I addressed.

 5        Q.   I don't need to know at the moment who they were, but am I

 6     correct that, from what you've told us before, there were but two or

 7     three people from the DB, and the remainder of the people present were

 8     public security employees?

 9        A.   Well, two or three of those that I saw here were from the state

10     security service.  As for this physical take-over, the security, I mean

11     not everybody from the state security can be in uniform; these

12     Special Forces and everybody primarily -- state security primarily did

13     not wear uniforms.

14        Q.   Okay, well let me -- let's leave it there.  You saw two or three

15     people from the state security service.  How many other people were

16     there?

17        A.   Well, as for the uniformed police, there were a lot more of them

18     around the building, at the entrance, in the hall.  And on every floor

19     almost there were two or three who were fully armed.

20        Q.   Let's move to another subject.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go into private session, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private .

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4907











11 Pages 4907-4910 redacted. Private session.















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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Now, could we have 26, please, on both the B/C/S

18     and the English.

19        Q.   While that's being found, Mr. Witness, let's -- you recall your

20     evidence yesterday that when you arrived in the region you were told that

21     the Serbian state security service was involved in the SBWS, and that

22     service was organising activities on the territory of the SAO Krajina?  I

23     just said SBWS, and I meant SAO Krajina.

24             Do you recall that evidence from yesterday?  You were told in a

25     meeting in Sibenik upon your arrival of the involvement of the state

Page 4912

 1     security service from Serbia in the SAO Krajina; do you recall that?

 2        A.   Well, I think what I said was that Vice Vukojevic said that

 3     either the ministry of -- or the police of Serbia had their presence in

 4     Croatia.  And Branko Polizota told me that the Serbian service is

 5     wreaking havoc in Croatia, in Krajina.  Maybe there was something else

 6     that was said there, but I think we meant the same thing.

 7        Q.   You claimed that yesterday that you were given that information

 8     at the first meeting upon your arrival in Sibenik; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Let's have a look at the statement you gave to the

11     Prosecution in 2004.  Paragraph 26, talking about your arrival.  We can

12     go to paragraph 25 so we get the context.

13        Q.   25 you talk about the arrival in Sibenik, your meeting with --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Your meeting with certain Croatian officials.  Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And 26:

18             "The Croatian side highlighted their concerns, especially in

19     relation to the Knin Krajina and Baranja.  They indicated that

20     Milan Martic, with a group of policemen, separated himself from the

21     Croatian MUP and took over the station in Knin.  He refused to recognise

22     Croatian authorities and in particular MUP of Croatia acting according to

23     his own will.  Based on Croatian information, the Serbian authorities

24     from Belgrade controlled Martic.  The Croats did not give us detailed

25     information about who in particular controlled Milan Martic from

Page 4913

 1     Belgrade, and, frankly, we did not ask, to avoid any unnecessary tension

 2     at this initial meeting."

 3             Was that correct when you told the Prosecution that in 2004?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was paragraph 27 correct when you told that to the Prosecution in

 6     2004, that the Croatian officials asked you to influence Martic?  Was

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Was paragraph 28 correct, that the Croatian officials outlined

10     problems in and around Gospic as another place of potential conflict

11     between Croats and Serbs?  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Can we please go to paragraph 28 in the B/C/S.

14     Thank you.

15        Q.   So in 2004 you appeared to be telling the Prosecution that at the

16     initial meeting you were told two essential things.  One is that Martic

17     is creating an independent police authority, and, two, according to

18     paragraph 28, that you should use your influence over paramilitaries in

19     Krajina, for example, volunteers trained by Captain Dragan.  That appears

20     to be the information that was given to you in the first meeting,

21     according to you, in 2004.

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   So no mention of the influence of the Serbian DB when you first

24     gave your account to the Prosecution; why is that?

25        A.   This was a meeting held at the high level.  We did not go into

Page 4914

 1     details, nor about specific tasks of services.  So when you mention the

 2     federal Secretariat of the Interior, they meant both the state security

 3     and the public security because there was our assistant minister and also

 4     the deputy of the Croatian Ministry of the Interior, Mr. Vukojevic.  They

 5     did not go into a lot of detail, and we were pulled out in order not to

 6     increase frictions at the very outset.  Maybe I failed to mention that.

 7        Q.   Sorry, maybe you failed to mention the involvement of the

 8     Serbian DB in your statement to the Prosecution in 2004.  Wasn't that the

 9     most significant piece of information you were given at that first

10     meeting, if what you said yesterday was true, that the activities of

11     Martic in 1991 were in some, if not large part, the result of the

12     Serbian DB?  Wasn't that the most significant piece of information you

13     received at that meeting?

14        A.   No, because, as I said, the first meeting was more a meeting of

15     introductions, a courtesy meeting, so we didn't really go into details,

16     and we didn't try to establish anything on the spot.  We -- and that's

17     how it proceeded.  Because a deputy minister would not discuss details or

18     individuals, but there was just a general remark that they knew that the

19     Serbian MUP had its presence there.  And later on with Branko Polizota

20     who was in charge of Sibenik and Knin areas and within whose purview it

21     was to conduct or carry out the duties of the state security, he then

22     explained to me further, and I can clearly recall his words, he said, The

23     Serbian service is wreaking havoc in Krajina in Croatia.

24        Q.   But that's the point I'm seeking to ask you about.  You were told

25     that the Serbian service was wreaking havoc, and yet when you speak to

Page 4915

 1     the Prosecution in 2004, that piece of information appears to slip your

 2     mind.  Why is that?

 3        A.   I don't really remember.

 4        Q.   Yesterday you gave evidence that having been given that

 5     information in the preliminary meeting, you didn't ask any further

 6     questions because you didn't want to go into it further because that

 7     would lead to strained relations.  Exactly what strained relations would

 8     it have led to, asking Croatian officials to give you chapter and verse

 9     on the involvement of the Serbian DB wreaking havoc on Croatian

10     territory?

11             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, page 36 of the transcript from

12     yesterday, the draft transcript.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we were told -- when we were

14     sent there by Mr. Petar Gracanin, we were told at a meeting we held

15     together that we should try and put ourselves in the situation as it was

16     in the field in order to avoid deepening the rift or conflicts, in order

17     to try and establish some kind of peaceful -- a peaceful relationship

18     with the people from Croatia.  (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted).  And on the Croatian side

22     it was only Mr. Vice Vukojevic, the deputy minister of the Croatian

23     police or the Croatian ministry - I don't recall what it was called.

24        Q.   So you are saying it wasn't your particular job to ask the

25     question; is that the sum of what you've just told us?

Page 4916

 1        A.   At that meeting.  At that particular meeting, yes.  Because it

 2     was a preliminary meeting, a courtesy meeting.  It wasn't a working

 3     meeting.  (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7        Q.   Okay.  So the Croatian officials told you about Martic and gave

 8     you details about that; correct?

 9        A.   Well, it depends on what you are referring to, what details.

10        Q.   You were asked to influence Martic to recognise Croatian laws; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You were asked to use influence over the named paramilitaries of

14     Captain Dragan; is that correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   What were you asked to do about the Serbian DB?

17        A.   In my conversation with Branko Polizota, I had the task to review

18     the work of that service at that centre, and I'm now talking about my own

19     personal task.  I had come from Belgrade, and I'm talking about the

20     direct contact I had.

21        Q.   What were you asked to do at that meeting about the Serbian DB

22     and the havoc they were wreaking on Croatian territory?

23        A.   We weren't asked to do anything.  We were just told -- it was --

24     they said, We know that the Serbian service is wreaking havoc in Krajina.

25     But they didn't really ask of us to do anything specific.  They just

Page 4917

 1     wanted to inform us of that.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go to paragraph 30 on e-court, please, the

 3     same exhibit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And may I invite you to have a look at the clock,

 5     Mr. Jordash.  We are about at the time where we have a break, so I leave

 6     it to you when you would --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, this is a good time.  I was just about

 8     to deal with something slightly different.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will do that after the break.  Could

10     you give us an indication as to how much time you'd still need?

11             MR. JORDASH:  45 minutes, I think.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  45 minutes.  Could the Simatovic Defence inform the

13     Chamber on how much time they would need once Mr. Jordash has finished?

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as things stand now

15     I believe we will need an hour, although it is difficult to tell because

16     I'm not quite sure how the remaining of my colleague Jordash's

17     cross-examination would develop.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we, therefore, need a little bit more than one

19     session.  If you could try to, one session being 75 minutes, we need more

20     than that; nevertheless, may I urge you to see how efficient you can be

21     in the cross-examination.

22             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, just for your guidance, the Chamber has

Page 4918

 1     no problem if you want to explore why a witness didn't say anything in a

 2     previous statement, and, of course, after half a page we all understand

 3     that it comes to your mind that it may be that that it was only invented

 4     later, whatever.  But there must be a reason for that.  That point is

 5     clear for us after half a page.  And, of course, if you you want to use

 6     another half a page to see whether you can elicit more, but -- then for

 7     the second page on -- going on the same ground, then -- this is the kind

 8     of things we are thinking about, similarly, to some extent, about whether

 9     there was a court proceedings before the building was taken over.  It --

10     we are totally lost on what the exact relevance of that is.  We do not

11     stop you because at a certain moment it may come out, but looking at it

12     back afterwards, well, whether the building was taken over after court

13     proceedings or without court proceedings and what those court proceedings

14     may have been about -- it's -- we do not know whether we have heard

15     anything of relevance for us or not.  And it took quite a bit of time.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I hear Your Honours.  In relation to the first

17     point, absolutely.  I understand Your Honours's point, and I will take

18     that completely on board.  In relation to the second point, from the

19     Defence perspective we don't quite understand why that issue was an

20     important one for the Prosecution, they put it into the pre-trial brief,

21     that the take-over of the MUP was somehow significant.  And we were

22     establishing it wasn't that significant, given what was happening at the

23     time on the ground and given the court proceedings.  But I take

24     Your Honour's point.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then to hear a lot of what the witness

Page 4919

 1     doesn't know about it is -- but that helps in undermining the relevance

 2     of it is questionable.  But we didn't stop you because we think that it's

 3     for you.  But finally, to prioritise subjects or to spend more time or

 4     less time on certain matters, we leave it in your hands, but you know

 5     that we also would like to have a cross-examination as efficient as

 6     possible.  Now, this took us exactly three minutes.  Let's get moving

 7     again.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 9        Q.   I wanted to take you straightaway, Mr. Witness, to paragraph 30

10     of -- I hope we are in open session.  I have a feeling we are not.

11     Please could we move into open session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we are.  If you look at your video screen,

13     you usually see "PS" for private session.  And if nothing appears, we are

14     usually in open session.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

16        Q.   In paragraph 30, Mr. Witness - and I want to try to move

17     quickly - states:

18             "I also later realised that this was not by accident, but that

19     these barricades were centrally organised by Milan Martic and

20     Milan Babic?"

21             Did you tell the Prosecution that, and is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Moving down that paragraph, for example, there were posters in

24     the barricades with the text "Martic, we are with you."  Many elements

25     pointed to the direction of Milan Martic.  I believe that at some point

Page 4920

 1     the police had emblems with Martic or "Marticevci" written on them which

 2     was only later replaced with emblems of "Milicija SAO Krajine."  Did you

 3     tell the Prosecution that, and was it correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Could I ask you, please, for paragraph 39 to be

 6     brought up on the screen.  And in the English too.

 7        Q.   And is it correct, from looking at the last three lines referring

 8     to the barricades, these barricades were manned by Marticevci together

 9     with some local Serbs from the villages.  Marticevci were dressed in

10     regular blue police uniforms.  Are those two sentences correct?  Did you

11     tell that to the Prosecution?

12        A.   Let me just find that spot, I apologise.  The 39th paragraph?

13     What line is it in?

14        Q.   Sorry, the last --

15        A.   The last portion?  Yes, I see it.  Yes.

16        Q.   So at the time you gave your statement in 2004, the problems you

17     identified in Knin involved one, Martic and Babic and the creation of

18     barricades with local Serbs, and secondly, the Knindzas with

19     Captain Dragan; do you accept that?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go to paragraph 32, please.

22        Q.   Which reads:

23             "We were supposed to monitor the peace agreement, so we went to

24     the field on visited the crisis areas.  I recall that the situation in

25     the field was completely different than it was described in Belgrade

Page 4921

 1     during the briefing with Petar Gracanin.  He told us that we would be

 2     welcomed by the Croatian authorities and Serbs in Croatia in order to

 3     help both sides to keep the peace.  When we arrived in Croatia, we

 4     realised that nobody really wanted us there and that both sides looked at

 5     us suspiciously, often seeing us as spies for the other side."

 6             Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Paragraph 33.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we go into private session for this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4922











11 Page 4922 redacted. Private session.















Page 4923

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   I want to refer to you --

Page 4924

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I think -- sorry, could we go back to

 2     private session.  I just want to be ultra-cautious.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4925











11 Pages 4925-4926 redacted. Private session.















Page 4927

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             MR. JORDASH:

 8        Q.   What connection were you seeking to make between Ulemek and

 9     Dragan?  I don't follow that piece of testimony.

10        A.   Well, the connection is in that no one could, without the

11     approval of certain individuals in the service or the police or

12     politicians of the then-Serbia, could be there especially if we have in

13     mind a past of Captain Dragan or Legija.  And I'm referring now to the

14     time when I was in the service.  These were individuals who had been

15     trained in -- abroad or in some paramilitary units, and Legija, after

16     all, was named after the legion of foreigners, and they had -- their own

17     personal past was somewhat stained, so they couldn't really come to

18     Yugoslavia without someone's approval.

19        Q.   But are you referring there when you speak of Legija Ulemek being

20     the leader of the special unit of the Serbian MUP to his command role in

21     the JSO in 1996?

22        A.   In 1996?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   Well, yes, I'm referring to that same individual.

25        Q.   So you are saying someone had to give Dragan permission to come

Page 4928

 1     to Knin, that could be a politician, it could be the police, or it could

 2     be the state security service; is that correct?

 3        A.   Well, certainly a responsible individual, an official.  I can't

 4     be sure whether this would have been someone from the service or a

 5     political -- a politician.  I really don't know.  I couldn't know who it

 6     might have been.

 7        Q.   But what's that got to do with Legija being the commander of the

 8     JSO in 1996?  I don't understand the connection you are making.

 9        A.   Well, the connection is that both Legija and Captain Dragan had

10     the same kind of personal history.  Their past was criminal.  They spent

11     some time, almost simultaneously, at the same time, in the legion of

12     foreigners.

13        Q.   And that's the connection you're making?  That's it?  The fact

14     that they had a similar past, as you saw it?  If that's it, we can move

15     on.

16        A.   Well, that's what was -- what turned out to be true after they

17     were arrested.  And do you know that Legija was actually convicted of two

18     crimes in Serbia?  Is there any other special conclusion that I need to

19     draw?  He was convicted to two prison terms of 40 years.

20        Q.   Yeah.  For crimes committed in which year, Mr. Witness?  Is that

21     the execution of Djindjic?

22        A.   Well, yes, that as well as his other activity.  That is what he

23     was convicted of.  I haven't really been following it closely, but I

24     heard that he was convicted of two crimes, I think, and that he got two

25     40-year prison sentences, one probably for Djindjic and the other one, I

Page 4929

 1     don't know exactly.

 2        Q.   But for crimes in 2000, 2003, or thereabouts, is that not right?

 3        A.   Well, when was it that Djindjic was killed?  Then probably, I

 4     think.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that it doesn't assist the Chamber to

 6     explore this matter any further.

 7             Let's please proceed.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we have Exhibit 5305 again on the

 9     e-court.  And I want to go to paragraph 45 of the B/C/S and the English.

10        Q.   Please could you read out the first line of paragraph 45,

11     Mr. Witness.  If you would read it out aloud, please.

12        A.   45 you said?  You meant 45?

13        Q.   I did, yes.

14        A.   "I personally did not see Jovica Stanisic, the head of the DB of

15     Serbia, in Knin, but I heard from some colleagues of mine, that the DB of

16     Serbia organised courses for police officers in Knin in order to create

17     the SAO Krajina DB.  We talked amongst ourselves that Stanisic

18     occasionally comes to Knin to participate in the training of the

19     SAO Krajina DB officers ."

20        Q.   So am I correct you told the Prosecution that you personally did

21     not see Stanisic in Knin?

22        A.   That is correct.  It's the way it is written in this statement.

23     That's exactly what I said.  My first reaction was Martic and the

24     investigation involved.  I didn't want to bring other people into the

25     picture.  It wasn't Stanisic who was discussed.  All attention was

Page 4930

 1     focused on Martic.  Later on as well, later on as well I made some

 2     corrections when I remembered what had happened, and then I altered some

 3     of my positions.  When I contacted the Prosecutor and the investigators,

 4     I corrected my views in relation to Stanisic.

 5        Q.   Well, I've got 15 minutes left, so I'm going to go quickly.

 6             Your explanation for why you told the Prosecution that you did

 7     not see Mr. Stanisic is that you wanted to focus your attention on

 8     Martic.  Is that the explanation you give for the inconsistency between

 9     what you now say and what you told the Prosecution in 2004?

10        A.   I presented my position in the investigation.  They insisted that

11     I say what the situation was in respect of Martic.  We did not exactly

12     focus on other individuals.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... that's your explanation,

14     let's move on.

15             Did you tell the Prosecution that you heard from some colleagues

16     that the DB of Serbia organised courses for police officers in order to

17     create the SAO Krajina DB?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you tell the Prosecution that you talked amongst yourselves

20     that Stanisic came to Knin occasionally to participate in the training of

21     the SAO Krajina DB officers?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you, and I suggest you did not, ever say to the Prosecution

24     in 2004 that Stanisic, head of the DB of Serbia, was responsible for

25     wreaking havoc in Croatia?

Page 4931

 1        A.   I did not say that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3        A.   Chaos or havoc, as Polizota said to me.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Let's turn to paragraph 76 of the same exhibit,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   Did you -- look at paragraph 76, please, and I'll read it:

 7             "I knew that the following paramilitaries were in the region of

 8     Eastern Slavonia, those of Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, units commanded

 9     by Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, men of Vuk Draskovic, and Seselj."

10             Did you tell the Prosecution that that is what you knew about the

11     paramilitaries in the region of Eastern Slavonia when you gave your

12     statement in 2004?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we go into private session for a

16     moment.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4932

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             MR. JORDASH:

Page 4933

 1        Q.   On the 11th of February, 2008, whilst being proofed by --

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

 5        Q.   On the 11th of February, 2008, while being proofed with

 6     Mr. Hoffmann, you, in paragraph 16, for the first time announce that you

 7     heard about Frenki having some form of paramilitary unit which was

 8     problematic in the SBWS.  And let me just read you the most significant

 9     bit.

10             "In the evening they met," and you are referring to two men

11     there --

12        A.   I don't have that, sorry.

13        Q.   Paragraph 16.  You have that?

14             And I'm looking at --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Please could this not be shown to the public.

16     Thank you.

17        Q.   I'm looking at where it says two names went to the area around

18     Osijek in the evening they met -- and they mention Badza's Men and

19     Frenki's Men as most problematic, also the White Eagles.  Frenki's Men

20     and White Eagles were acting independent.

21             Did you tell the Prosecution that in a proofing session in 2008?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So could you explain how we go from 2004, no mention of Frenki

24     having any involvement in SBWS, to 2008 when he is the biggest problem

25     there is?

Page 4934

 1        A.   My colleagues, the persons mentioned there, that seems to have

 2     disappeared.

 3        Q.   Well, the question is a simply one, and I don't think you need to

 4     necessarily look at the note.  The question is:  What accounts for the

 5     difference?  No Frenki 2004, biggest problem Frenki 2008?

 6        A.   Well, perhaps my memory came back to me.  I don't know how else

 7     to interpret it, but it is a fact that that's what's written there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             Paragraph 17:

10             "The witness had no information re the involvement of the

11     Serbian DB in the SBWS."

12             MR. JORDASH:  Can we have 17 of the B/C/S, please.

13        Q.   Did you tell the Prosecution that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Was that true?  You didn't hear anything, see anything, record

16     anything, have any information about the Serbian DB in the SBWS despite

17     your functions in that location?

18        A.   I was actually trying to pacify things there.  I did not focus on

19     the Serbian service.  I did not pay attention to the activities of the

20     Serbian service.  And I stand by that.

21        Q.   And why is it, Mr. Witness, if you were truly told that the

22     Serbian DB was playing such a malign role in the Knin region, that you

23     didn't, when you saw Mr. Stanisic, have a word with him about it, merely

24     passing by or waving hello?

25        A.   It was two points.  I can't remember which came first.  Once it

Page 4935

 1     was in front of the building when I was with my colleague; we were either

 2     going to Martic or we were going out.  At any rate, there was that one

 3     contact.  Hello, hello, that was it.  And the second time at the Krka

 4     waterfalls.

 5        Q.   We know what you say happened.  I'm just asking why, given the

 6     information you claim to have received about the role of the DB, was it

 7     when you saw the, let's put it neutrally, a high-ranking member of the

 8     DB, that you didn't take the opportunity to sit down with him and have a

 9     word with him?

10        A.   In certain situations I was just supposed to report about what I

11     saw on the spot.  Likewise, we had a leader of our group and then we were

12     told what kind of details we could go into, who we could talk to.  My

13     superior probably hadn't given me approval to establish that kind of

14     contact.

15        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Could I suggest the reason you didn't speak to

16     him, just so that I put my case to you clearly, was because you didn't

17     see him, and you were never told in 1991 that he or the DB had any

18     involvement in wreaking havoc in the Krajina.

19        A.   I never said chaos.  I said havoc.  You can ask for the

20     transcripts of our meeting with Vice Vukojevic.  There's a record of

21     that, everything that was discussed there.  Not with Polizota, that was

22     not recorded.  I did keep some records.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go into --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A diary too, but that went missing.

25             MR. JORDASH:  I've just got, I think, two or three more

Page 4936

 1     questions.  Could we go into private session, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

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Page 4937











11 Page 4937 redacted. Private session.















Page 4938

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Jordash, what I wanted to read to the document is the seven

21     lines following a line starting with "not at that point," and I must say

22     that that's at the 88th page.  Perhaps you first read it.

23             MR. JORDASH:  I have it, Your Honour, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  In all fairness, I ...

25             And I read it.  Yes.  So that you are -- that you know what I'm

Page 4939

 1     going to read.

 2             Witness, a portion was read to you of the testimony you've given

 3     earlier.  I would like to read one answer you gave and want to verify

 4     whether that would be an answer you would still give today.  And I first

 5     read the question to you.  It follows the passage where you were talking

 6     about the conversation you had when you were in that helicopter flying

 7     above the fortress in Knin.  And then you were asked the following

 8     question:

 9             "Do you know, when the word Captain Dragan was used to identify

10     this person, do you know who was being talked about?  Can you identify

11     that person?"

12             And then your answer was the following:

13             "Not at that point, no.  But later on we learned more about him

14     when we met various individuals in the field and also privately later on

15     through my life when I returned from the field.  But at the time he said

16     he was an expert in combat, that he had completed some sort of military

17     courses, terrorist, anti-terrorist, somewhere in the west, and that for

18     the time being he was conducting training of the Knindzas, or rather,

19     these Serb forces in the area."

20             Is that what you testified at the time, and is the testimony

21     accurate?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is accurate.  Perhaps I did

23     not describe it in specifics.  We couldn't really have the conversation

24     in the helicopter.  It was too noisy.  This was a military helicopter.

25     There was a lot of wind noise.  But then when we landed, then, of course,

Page 4940

 1     we asked Zec who was this and then he just told us briefly that this was

 2     some person who had completed some courses abroad, and then later on we

 3     tried to gather as much information as we could about this man.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the line in your testimony "but at the time he

 5     said that he was an expert in combat," do I understand that the first

 6     "he" is Zec and that the second "he" is Captain Dragan?  Is that how I

 7     have to understand it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  No.  Admiral Zec.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But let me now read it then again.

10             "But at the time he said that he was an expert in combat, that he

11     had completed some sort of military courses, terrorist, anti-terrorist,

12     somewhere in the west, and that for the time being he was conducting

13     training of the Knindzas, or rather, Serb forces in the area."

14             Now, who told you all this?  And who you refer to when you said

15     that the person had completed military courses and that he was conducting

16     training?

17             Could you please clarify because this is ambiguous testimony.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were told so by Admiral Zec.  As

19     for the information about his training, about the training and the

20     terrorist or anti-terrorist courses, that part related to Captain Dragan.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and also the training of the Knindzas, that

22     referred also to Captain Dragan; is that well understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the last portion of this evidence is:

25             "... and that for the time being he was conducting training of

Page 4941

 1     the Knindzas, or rather, the Serb forces in the area."

 2             Do I understand that Admiral Zec told you that Captain Dragan was

 3     conducting training of the Knindzas and that he then -- that either you

 4     or he corrected himself and made it broader, saying the Knindzas, or

 5     rather, the Serb forces in the area?  Do you remember whether you

 6     corrected while giving testimony what you said or that it was Admiral Zec

 7     who initially said something about Knindzas and then made it broader by

 8     saying "or rather these Serb forces"?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that he used the term

10     Serbian volunteers.  The Knindzas and Serbian volunteers.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

12             I explored this because that testimony, of course, is not

13     evidence, and that's the reason why I dealt with that matter.

14             Mr. Hoffmann.

15             MR. HOFFMANN:  If you allow me, I would just put on the record

16     that the running page number of that reference was transcript 1084.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you for that assistance.

18             We have some more time to go.  Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to

19     cross-examine the witness?

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-038, you will now be cross-examined by

22     Mr. Petrovic, and Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25             Could we now please move to private session.

Page 4942

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 4943











11 Pages 4943-4947 redacted. Private session.















Page 4948

 1   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Mr. Petrovic, the same

22     message to you as we sent to Mr. Jordash.  The matter you are dealing

23     with in private session, it's perfectly clear what is on your mind, and

24     none of your questions expresses that clearly.  It is about bias and

25     getting favours, and that's what is on your mind apparently as a

Page 4949

 1     possibility.  Next time, just ask the witness about it, rather than

 2     making all kind of movements around the hot potato.  And then you could

 3     also do it in five minutes instead of in 15 minutes.

 4             We'll resume at 10 minutes to -- yes, Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Just briefly, Your Honour, the next witness is on

 6     stand by outside; do you think that we will get to him today?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I would not exclude that, since we have to use our

 8     time as good as we can, and since Mr. Petrovic knows that the time he

 9     uses and the time he wants to use also depends on how he conducts his

10     cross-examination and that the Chamber will consider that in granting

11     time.  There's a chance -- there's a fair chance that we would start with

12     the next witness.

13             We'll resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we restart, the Defence is informed that the

17     Chamber expects a response on a motion in relation to Witness JF-035 by

18     Monday close of business.  Of course, the Chamber has used its power here

19     to shorten the time-limits under Rule 126 bis, I think it is.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, could I just clarify --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The motion was filed the 7th of May.  That's from

22     what I remember.

23             MR. JORDASH:  When you say expect a response, if we want to

24     respond.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you want to respond.  If you do not wish to

Page 4950

 1     respond, then, of course, it's always appreciated if you give notice of

 2     that so that we don't have to wait if or --

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, it's -- we are not insisting on a

 5     response.  But if you wish to respond, it should be done -- the

 6     time-limit is Monday close of business.

 7             Yes, please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Witness, before the break you told us that around the

10     15th of August you came to Osijek and seven or eight days later you came

11     to Baranja.  Is it true that you were in Baranja until the end

12     of September?

13        A.   I cannot recall exactly when I had left, on which date.  I had

14     been cut off from my superiors.  I know that one day towards the end of

15     September I established contact with minister Petar Gracanin and asked

16     him what to do next.  I had no conditions for work whatsoever.  I have no

17     contacts, and I cannot report to anyone.

18        Q.   Witness, I really have to interrupt you at this point.  I'm

19     asking you whether it's correct that you stayed there until the end of

20     September?  It just requires a simple answer.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, over that month and more that you

23     spent in Baranja, what were the paramilitary units that were in Baranja?

24        A.   Out in the field with the population, it was mostly elderly

25     people --

Page 4951

 1        Q.   I have to interrupt you straightaway.  Which units were in

 2     Baranja?

 3        A.   In Baranja, there were Seselj's units, Vuk Draskovic's, then the

 4     White Eagles, then Arkan's Men, then Badza with his units, and

 5     Frenki's Men with their units.  Maybe I missed someone, but I really

 6     cannot remember anymore.  That's it.  That's what I established.  I

 7     established their presence there.

 8        Q.   During your stay there for about a month, did you see any of

 9     these paramilitary units?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did you move about Baranja over that month and more than that,

12     the time that you spent there?

13        A.   At first, yes.  Later on, the security situation did not permit

14     me to do so.  I did not have a vehicle made available to me, so, when

15     necessary, I used a military vehicle, and that also depended on what the

16     availability was.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 5305, that's the document

18     that I would like shown to this witness, paragraph 76, and in B/C/S it's

19     the same paragraph.

20        Q.   I'm going to read out to you the last sentence in that

21     paragraph --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Document not to be shown to the public.

23     Could you please not forget to indicate that.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  So could

25     the document please not be displayed publicly.  And I would like to ask

Page 4952

 1     for page 76 -- or paragraph, rather, 76 in both languages.

 2        Q.   Witness, could you please read the last sentence in paragraph 76.

 3     Could you please read it out loud, this last sentence.

 4        A.   "As far as I knew at that time, those paramilitaries had not been

 5     operating in Baranja because the area was under control of the JNA."

 6        Q.   Witness, is that what you said to the investigators in 2004 as

 7     stated here?

 8        A.   Please read the first sentence.  You read the first sentence.

 9        Q.   I'm the one who is putting questions to you, and you answer my

10     question.  Is this what you said to the investigators?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness was responding to your question by

13     pointing at another part of the interview.  He is allowed to do so and

14     should not be interrupted when doing it.  Please proceed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So, Mr. Witness, you said that in Baranja, there weren't any

17     paramilitary units; is that correct?

18        A.   At one point in time.  And I said, exactly, that there weren't

19     any.  I mean, but that was at one moment, at one point in time.

20        Q.   Now, tell us why you changed your statement in this respect

21     today, six years later?

22        A.   It wasn't today.  It was earlier on.  I changed some of my views

23     and some of my statements because I remembered certain things.  I

24     remembered things that happened in relation to the paramilitaries.  I

25     said that Mate Tenjajic, the commander of the barracks in Beli Manastir,

Page 4953

 1     on that day when I saw him, because we used to meet every morning, he

 2     informed me that on that day some Serb forces were coming in.  And I

 3     said, Who?  And he said, Well, it's your people, all of them.  And I

 4     said, How come you know that?  He said, That's what my security people

 5     said to me.  Do you want to meet them?  And I said, No, there's no need.

 6             So I didn't meet with them, I didn't contact them.  So that's the

 7     answer to your previous question as to whether I saw any of them.

 8        Q.   Why didn't you say that to the investigators, or is it the case

 9     that no one asked you about that?

10        A.   Maybe they didn't ask me about that, perhaps I didn't remember

11     myself at the time.  I really don't know.  I'm sorry that I'm speaking so

12     fast actually.  Perhaps I did not remember.

13        Q.   So what jogged your memory 19 years later?

14        A.   Perhaps it's less.  It's not 19 years ago, well, now it's 19

15     years ago, but ... well, anyway, a lot of things have gone through my

16     mind.

17        Q.   That means that perhaps you don't remember things exactly as you

18     had put it here, maybe things are different from what you said here?

19        A.   That's possibly too, yes.

20        Q.   It is possible that as for Frenki's Men, you heard about that a

21     lot later, many years later.  And then since it's been so many years,

22     somehow that also got into your memory and interfered in a way; is that

23     possible?

24        A.   I wouldn't agree with that.  I didn't remember -- I didn't,

25     rather, mention all the names of these units, but I remember very well

Page 4954

 1     that Mate Tenjajic said to me that the Serb forces were coming.  And

 2     that's when we discussed it, which forces.

 3        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned Beli, the forces of Beli and Giska; is

 4     that right, that's what you said yesterday?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you hear about the forces of this Beli also being in Baranja?

 7        A.   Well, was it in Osijek or was it in Baranja, but I know that

 8     people complained the most about the forces ever Vuk Draskovic, because

 9     they were highly disorganised, as I said, and every group operated on its

10     own, and every individual operated on its own too.

11        Q.   Did they mention this Giska as well?

12        A.   I would like to point out that most of these people were elderly.

13     As for Giska, perhaps we commented on him, myself with Mate Tenjajic.

14     But these older people, they said, Chetniks.  And I said, Which Chetniks?

15     What do they look like?  Who are these people?  And then they tried to do

16     their best.

17        Q.   All right.  So these units of Giska's, were they in the area of

18     Baranja while you were there?

19        A.   Well, now, was it Baranja or Beli Manastir, please don't take my

20     word for it now.  I mean, all of that is ...

21        Q.   What about the man who belonged to this Beli?  Were they in the

22     Beli Manastir or in the area around Osijek?

23        A.   People complained the most about the White Eagles.  And bearing

24     in mind that Giska and Beli operated in those forces of the White Eagles,

25     well.

Page 4955

 1        Q.   Did you ever find out which structure this Giska belonged to?

 2        A.   I think it was the White Eagles at the time.

 3        Q.   Did you ever find out who Beli belonged to?

 4        A.   I knew Beli personally because he had a car dump near Belgrade

 5     and one of the people from back home also worked there and that's how I

 6     saw him pretty often.

 7        Q.   Did you hear of him when you were in Osijek and --

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I heard about him.

 9        Q.   And if I put it to you that Beli was killed on the 4th of August,

10     1991, what are you going to say to that?

11        A.   I will agree with that fact of yours as well.  I'm saying --

12     well, I knew about Beli -- I mean, I went to this car dump that he had.

13     Now, whether he got killed before that or whatever --

14        Q.   Where were you in August 1991?

15        A.   Well, I told you on the 15th of August 1991 I went to Osijek.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Petrovic, the interpreters

17     cannot hear him.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, you are invited to switch on your

19     microphone.  And I additionally invite you to take that pause as well.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I beg

21     your pardon.  All of this is due to the fact that I'm trying to finish

22     with this witness as soon as possible.  I'm doing my best.

23        Q.   Where were you up until the 15th of August, 1991, up until the

24     time when you went to Baranja?

25   (redacted)

Page 4956

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   So, during your stay in Belgrade while you were in your office at

17     the state security, you did not hear what all of Belgrade and all of

18     Serbia were talking about at the time, the killing of Beli, you did not

19     hear about that?

20        A.   Well, I did not.  And if I have to state the reason, I can.

21     Because at that time there were is so many killings of this kind that --

22        Q.   Tell us, please, where was it that you heard about Badza's Group?

23        A.   In Beli Manastir.

24        Q.   Can you tell us who told you about Badza's Group?

25        A.   Mate Tenjajic.

Page 4957

 1        Q.   Where did you hear of the White Eagles?  Where?

 2        A.   I heard it from villagers in Zmajevo, I think, and places like

 3     that.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us where you heard about the Serb guard?

 5        A.   I really cannot recall now.  I really cannot remember.  Really.

 6     It's been quite a while.

 7        Q.   Where did you hear about the Red Berets?

 8        A.   We knew about the Red Berets.  I mean, if you are asking me about

 9     where they were staying, well, I did not mention the Red Berets staying

10     in this area.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

12     microphones please be switched off.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In Osijek and Baranja, at the time while you were there, there

15     were no Red Berets; is my understanding correct?

16        A.   Not under the name of the Red Berets.  Now, I mean, if you are

17     saying that Badza Stojicic and them are the same thing and why I said

18     Badza's Men at some point and whatever, well.

19        Q.   Can you explain it to us.  Who are Badza's Men?  Who is the

20     Serbian guard?  Do you make a distinction at all among all of these

21     different groups?

22        A.   Well, the Red Berets were units of the MUP.  The Serbian guard

23     was Arkan's Group, I think.

24        Q.   What about the White Eagles?

25        A.   Vuk Draskovic.  I mean, well, one of the groups, I mean -- but I

Page 4958

 1     think they operated under the SPO.

 2        Q.   I'm going to tell you that none of that was correct, but I'm not

 3     going to ask you for any further comment.  I'm now going to move on.

 4             Tell me, you mentioned Frenki's Men and you mentioned what

 5     Mate Tenjajic had told you.  Did you hear about that somewhere else as

 6     well while you were there?

 7        A.   No, I did not hear about that.

 8        Q.   So you were only told this by Tenjajic; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, the barracks commander.

10        Q.   Tell us, please, where did you have this conversation with

11     Tenjajic when he told you about it?

12        A.   In his office.

13        Q.   When was this?

14        A.   Do you mean what day or what date?  I can't recall the date, but

15     it was around 9.00 in the morning, after breakfast.  I know because we

16     met every morning.

17        Q.   So where was this barrack where this conversation took place?

18        A.   It was on the approaches from Beli Manastir, from Bezdan towards

19     Beli Manastir.

20        Q.   So what is the closest town?

21        A.   Beli Manastir.  This was in the town itself.  The barrack is on

22     the outskirts of the town.

23        Q.   Tell us, please, where were you -- did --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, could you please repeat the question.

Page 4959

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My question was:  In what direction did this convoy take?  In

 3     what direction did the column go?

 4        A.   In the direction of the town of Beli Manastir.

 5        Q.   Where were you while this column was passing?

 6        A.   I was in Mate Tenjajic's office.  I also had an office of my own

 7     sort of where I also slept and used as my office.

 8        Q.   So while this column was moving past, you didn't even look out to

 9     see who or what was in the column?

10        A.   That's correct, I did not.

11        Q.   Why didn't you even glance at who was in the column?

12        A.   Because we were told that in the field we could only contact the

13     army representatives.

14        Q.   Witness, I'm not asking you about contacts.  I'm asking you about

15     why you didn't even take a look at who was in the column.  Wasn't that

16     why you were sent there, to provide information about the situation as it

17     was in Beli Manastir area?

18        A.   No, I didn't even take a look.

19        Q.   Well, were you not even interested in who these forces were, the

20     paramilitary forces coming from Serbia to Beli Manastir, the area that

21     you were charged with?

22        A.   I was interested and I was advised by Mate Tenjajic about who it

23     was that was coming in about.  And it was a war time situation.  I had

24     some bad experience in Beli Manastir at the time, and I was fed up with

25     everything, and I just wanted to get out of there as soon as I could.  I

Page 4960

 1     didn't even leave the barrack.  I ate in the canteen there, and I

 2     remained on the spot.

 3        Q.   Do you know when Bilje was liberated?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do you know who liberated Bilje?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   Do you know whether there was a local police force in

 8     Beli Manastir?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Who was at the head of this local police?

11        A.   Well, the changes were a daily occurrence.  There were Serbian

12     forces there.  I remember that for a time there was a certain

13     Boro Dobrokes; he was an older man, some 70 years or so old, that I and

14     Pero Lazukic called and asked to take on the duty of municipal assembly

15     president.  We were occasionally informed about the situation in the

16     field, and he was informed of them, but his information was so scarce

17     that it was unreliable.  There were daily changes.  And I remember that

18     there was a Zuco [phoen] person who was so glorified in the media, radio

19     stations, that he was the best sharp-shooter, that he targeted victims

20     from a silo or somewhere.  There was even an instance where a man was

21     killed 5 metres away from me.

22        Q.   Well, my question to you was:  Was there a presence of the state

23     security in Beli Manastir?

24        A.   No.  There was only military security.  Pero Lazukic was there.

25        Q.   Was there a Crisis Staff?

Page 4961

 1        A.   Yes.  Boro Dobrokes, he had a sort of Crisis Staff, and he was

 2     also the president of the municipality.

 3        Q.   Would you please explain to us, in your statement, 65 ter 5305,

 4     paragraph 72.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please do not show this in public.

 6        Q.   You said:

 7             "I found a certain Boro Dobrokesa who used to work for the

 8     administration before the war, and I appointed him as a town

 9     administrator in Beli Manastir."

10        A.   Well, maybe it wasn't written down correctly.

11        Q.   Well, please allow me to put my question first.  My question is

12     this:  Who authorised you to appoint an administrator, a town

13     administrator, in Beli Manastir?  Under whose authority did you do that?

14        A.   Maybe it wasn't properly translated that this was a town

15     administrator.  He came to the barrack himself and said that he was in

16     charge of the Crisis Staff.  And Pero Lazukic and I then asked him to

17     take over all the other functions because there was general chaos there.

18     And he told us that there was a problem with some villagers on the

19     border, and there were people coming in from Hungary, crossing over,

20     because it was not secure.  We charged him with taking care of that too.

21        Q.   Do you know who Stanko Ivanovic [as interpreted] was?

22        A.   I don't know.  I don't recall.

23        Q.   Do you know who Milomir Petkovic is?

24        A.   I can't recall.

25             MR. PETROVIC:  Your Honours, I asked about Stanko "Trivanovic,"

Page 4962

 1     whereas in the transcript it says Stanko "Ivanovic."

 2        Q.   Do you know who Radoslav Zirlarevic [phoen] is?

 3        A.   I can't remember.

 4        Q.   Do you know who Vranic was?

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly turn on and off his

 7     microphone himself because the interpreters cannot hear the beginning and

 8     the end of his question.  Thank you.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Stanislav Vranic was the last

10     person I asked about.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you heard the request of the interpreters?  If

12     you are assisted by switching on and off the microphone, then parts are

13     lost.  So it takes some concentration, but would you please try to do it

14     yourself or to instruct your assistants accordingly.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I issued instructions to my

16     assistant, but apparently he's not really complying.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  He has had a hard day today, yes.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, do you know which JNA unit took control over Baranja?

20        A.   I know that there were some forces in the barrack which took part

21     in that, but which exact units they were, I really don't know.

22        Q.   Witness, do you know who General Krstic is?

23        A.   I don't.  Maybe it rings familiar, but I'm not -- I can't recall

24     now.

25        Q.   Do you know who Colonel Jovanovic was, the commander of the

Page 4963

 1     36th Armoured Battalion?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   In your statement in paragraph 72, I think we still have it on

 4     our monitors.

 5             MR. PETROVIC:  That's the previous page.  If we can just switch

 6     pages.  And let's -- it shouldn't be shown in public.

 7        Q.   You say there:

 8             "My main task there was to go to the villages around

 9     Beli Manastir.  I went to the villages and spoke with the people.  The

10     people complained that they were being attacked during the night,

11     allegedly by Croats who were crossing in from Hungary."  And so on and so

12     forth.

13             I never found anywhere in your statements that you said that you

14     ever stated to the investigators that people complained about

15     paramilitary forces, Serb paramilitary forces, the people that you had

16     conversations with me, and now I would like to ask you why that is so?

17     Why didn't you mention that when you gave this statement in 2006?  But

18     you did mention attacks against civilians.  So it's obvious that that

19     question was put to you.  But you only mentioned the Croats from crossing

20     over from Hungary.  So I'm asking you now, Why did you nowhere ever

21     mention Serbian forces?

22        A.   Well, maybe the question wasn't specific about which forces this

23     related to, but is it correct that around the villages near Knezivac

24     there were attacks by Croats.  But the villages towards Beli Manastir,

25     towards Darda, Bilje, and Osijek, the complaints were different.

Page 4964

 1        Q.   Could you tell me why you did not mention attacks by Serb

 2     paramilitary forces against civilians in Baranja?  Do you have an answer

 3     or don't you have an answer?

 4        A.   Well, I don't have an answer why I didn't.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann.

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  I would just ask that at least we look at the next

 7     paragraph where there is mentioning of Serbian snipers.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean paragraph 73?

 9             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, exactly.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's comment rather than ...

11             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, it's a comment about how his prior statement

12     is summarised.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I may just reply.  Here mention

17     is made of a specific incident, and we've heard about this incident

18     today, so there's nothing -- there's nothing at issue here.  So I'm

19     asking about the attacks against the people, the civilians, who remained

20     in villages, attacks by paramilitary forces.  There's nothing about that

21     in the statement.  As for the other incident, he mentioned that ten

22     minutes ago.

23             If I may continue?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may continue, and the parties are invited not to

25     give a lot of comment either in re-examination or -- you can ask a

Page 4965

 1     question about it or in argument you can point at any incompleteness of

 2     the portions of the evidence that you are pointing at.  Now, I -- there's

 3     one issue, however, which appears here to be important, that is, that we

 4     are quoting from a document which is not in evidence.  So, therefore, if

 5     there are any portions you want to point at, then perhaps we find a way

 6     to get that into evidence so that we are not without the assistance of

 7     the other portions of the statement.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I will

10     consult with my colleague and then maybe we will come up with a joint

11     proposal by the Defence teams as to how to treat this statement from 2004

12     by this witness.

13             Your Honours, I will need to ask your leave to do something, and

14     I would like to show you a document that we found overnight.  I think

15     it's an important document, but unfortunately we don't have a

16     translation.  And I would like to take advantage of this witness being

17     present.  This is document 2D62, 65 ter, with your leave.  Although there

18     is no translation, I would like to use this document.  This is a document

19     from the collection that may be familiar to the Trial Chamber from some

20     other cases.  The Republic of Croatia, the patriotic war documents, and

21     according to what it says in this collection, this was a document found

22     in the office of the president of Croatia.  And there is a number under

23     which it was registered.  Unfortunately, there is no translation, but I

24     would like to show this document to the witness.  And then once it has

25     been translated, we can tender the document or do as you order.

Page 4966

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any reason to believe that the witness is

 2     aware of this document.  Because it may be a document, if relevant, which

 3     could be bar tabled or -- because it seems to be an official document.

 4     But if you first ask the witness whether he is aware of this document.

 5     And then if you want to read a certain portion to him, please do so.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist us

 7     and give the witness the document.

 8        Q.   This is a document drafted by the president for co-ordination of

 9     the parties of Yugoslav orientation, Dr. Vida Matic [phoen]; the

10     president of the executive council of Slavonia and Western Srem for the

11     municipality of Beli Manastir, Borivoje Zivanovic [phoen]; and the

12     commander of the defence staff of Beli Manastir,

13     Major Borivoje Dobrokes.  The document was drafted on the

14     11th of September, 1991, in other words, when the witness was there, and

15     it's entitled "Declaration of Capitulation of Croatia."

16             Witness, that is copy of this document, the transcript of this

17     document.  This is not what it looked like in the original.  My question

18     to you is:  Are you aware that these three individuals issued this type

19     of declaration on the 11th of September, 1991?

20        A.   I did not see this declaration when I was there.  I'm not

21     familiar with it.  But if you like, I can comment on it.

22        Q.   Well, I will put a question to you about what is stated under

23     number 1.  It says there, Baranja is free.  The entire territory is under

24     the control of the TO Beli Manastir units and MUP forces, or rather, SUP

25     forces of the Beli Manastir municipality.  In Baranja, the military rule

Page 4967

 1     was in place for three days only, after which a new executive government

 2     was elected in the autonomous region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

 3     Srem, the Executive Council for Baranja.

 4             Do you know whether what is stated here happened in Baranja

 5     immediately before this date as noted here, the 11th of September, 1991?

 6        A.   I don't.

 7        Q.   Would you please now take a look at paragraph 4.  It says there:

 8             To the citizens of Baranja, you are invited to return.  We

 9     guarantee freedom, law and order.  Baranja is today under the control of

10     JNA units and units of the territorial Defence, and there are no

11     paramilitary units or organisations in our area.

12             Is this consistent with what you knew about the situation there

13     at the time when you were in Baranja?

14        A.   No, it is not.

15        Q.   Is it consistent with the statement that you gave in 2004 which

16     is identical to what is stated in paragraph 4 here as it relates to

17     military units in Baranja?

18        A.   Are you referring to Beli Manastir only or -- well in Baranja

19     there were paramilitary units.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, could you assist us in telling us

22     where we find a -- as you said, an identical statement?

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] You can find that -- well, the

24     65 ter number is 5305.  Paragraph 76.  Not to be shown to the public,

25     that's right.

Page 4968

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll just read it into the record so that we know

 2     what we are talking about.  It's a short paragraph.

 3             "I knew that the following paramilitaries were in the --"

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  "I knew that the following paramilitaries were in

 6     the region of Eastern Slavonia.  Those of Zeljko Raznjatovic, also known

 7     as Arkan, units commanded by Radovan Stojicic, also known as Badza," and

 8     then I leave out a -- something between brackets, for obvious reasons,

 9     "men of Vuk Draskovic and Vojislav Seselj.  As far as I know, at the

10     time, those paramilitaries had not been operating in Baranja because the

11     area was under control of the JNA."

12             So there we have that now on the record.

13             Mr. Petrovic.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15             I would now like to ask that this document be marked for

16     identification, the one that I showed just now.  And then we will deal

17     with it again when we have a translation that we can bring to the

18     attention of the Trial Chamber.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll proceed as you suggest.  It is a document

20     under the number 152, dated the 11th of -- "Rujan" is what month again,

21     Mr. Petrovic?

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, "Rujan" is September,

23     I think.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 1991.  And it is -- yes, I see it further down,

25     11/9/1991, and it is a declaration or a statement given by the persons

Page 4969

 1     you mentioned.

 2             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D58, marked for

 4     identification, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And we wait for it to be uploaded and a

 6     translation to be provided.

 7             Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your earlier statement you said that the JNA had

10     had an important role in setting the borders of the SAO Krajina.  Tell us

11     how.

12        A.   When there was a conflict between certain villages, the villagers

13     would place roadblocks in order to protect themselves.  Then on the

14     following day we would go there to see the localities involved,

15     Vratisti [phoen], Vratiskovac [phoen], its characteristic.

16        Q.   My question was one that required only a brief answer.  I think

17     I'm getting to the very end.  In this statement, 5305, 65 ter, in

18     paragraph 39, you said that the JNA was not involved in the separation of

19     forces, rather, they -- is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly repeat the last part of

22     his sentence, please, thank you.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Two questions now.  Three, actually, if you allow me.

25     Mate Tenjic --

Page 4970

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Limited time, Mr. Petrovic.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just three questions

 3     and I'm done.

 4        Q.   So, Mate - I want to get the last name right - Mate Tenjajic, can

 5     you tell us what his ethnicity was?

 6        A.   He was a Croat.

 7        Q.   Was anybody else present when you and Tenjajic talked, and is he

 8     alive today, and where can we find him, if you know?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I think Pero Lazukic was there too, and I heard

10     that Pero got killed.  I know that his wife came to Belgrade, but I

11     really don't know about Mate Tenjajic.

12        Q.   Last question:  Did you write report during your stay in

13     Kninska Krajina and in Slavonia, or rather, Baranja?

14        A.   In Kninska Krajina, yes; in Osijek, yes; in Baranja, I just wrote

15     daily notes in my notebook.  I wrote things in my notebook earlier on as

16     well and then based my notes on that.

17        Q.   Did you ever convey the information that you received to anyone

18     while you were in Baranja?

19        A.   Yes, to Petar Gracanin.

20        Q.   Did you write that up when you came to Belgrade?  Did you write

21     up a report?

22        A.   I think so, yes.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on behalf of both

24     Defence teams, I would like to ask that the previous statements of this

25     witness that is marked as 5305 on the 65 ter list be admitted into

Page 4971

 1     evidence because we put many questions on the basis of that statement,

 2     and I believe that it can be of great assistance to the Trial Chamber

 3     when assessing the evidence given by this witness.  Of course, I'm

 4     tendering it under seal.

 5             I have no further questions for this witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It may create quite a bit of problems to deal with

 7     it in this way because the only way of having it admitted would be under

 8     Rule 92 ter.  Now, there's as such no problem to that, but then we should

 9     give the witness an opportunity to first read it all and then to make the

10     relevant attestations.  And that's exactly the reason why I said that we

11     have to find a way of getting into evidence - and that's the reason why I

12     read even literally one paragraph - in order to have the relevant

13     context.

14             We'll consider it.  But even not knowing the response of the

15     Prosecution, the Chamber might be quite hesitant to follow this

16     alternative route without the witness having had an opportunity to review

17     his statement.  And, nevertheless, he would have to give the

18     attestations.  That's really problematic, Mr. Petrovic, from a procedural

19     point of view.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I fully understand that,

21     Your Honour.  So although I haven't consulted my colleague from the

22     Stanisic Defence, I think that we could approach this in an alternative

23     fashion, namely, the parts of his statement that were read out before the

24     Honourable Trial Chamber and that the parties dealt with, could those

25     parts be admitted into evidence and the rest can be simply ignored.

Page 4972

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether we can admitted it into evidence or

 2     whether the parties could agree that that is what the witness stated at

 3     the time and then select the paragraphs, then we have a -- at least a

 4     context.

 5             Now, let's first see.  Any need for re-examination, Mr. Hoffmann?

 6             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, very briefly.

 7             If I may just add one sentence to the issue of the tendering of

 8     the statement.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. HOFFMANN:  I think the relevant parts have been read into the

11     transcript when there was --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We can check that.  And apparently what we want is

13     that if reference was made to the earlier statements when questions were

14     asked that in one way or another that it's put on the record what is in

15     that earlier statement relevant for the questions and for understanding

16     the answers.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Hoffmann:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, very briefly a number of questions.  Today you were

21     asked in the context of the take-over of the federal MUP building, and

22     that is today at transcript page 17, there was a suggestion made to you

23     that documents were taken away by thieves and not just by colleagues or

24     other services.  If you mentioned documents missing in the federal DB or

25     the federal MUP, did you have in mind general criminals coming into the

Page 4973

 1     federal MUP and taking away documents?

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry to leap up.  I wasn't - just so that we are

 3     clear so the issue can be expedited - I wasn't suggesting, if I can put

 4     it this way, common criminals.  I was suggesting employees taking

 5     documents, thereby becoming thieves.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I remember -- I was about, when you put the

 7     question the way in which you phrased it, to ask whether this was really

 8     what you meant.  Because theft being more, I think, more vulnerable for

 9     thieves, I think you said, that, of course, was the suggestion.

10             But let's -- Mr. Hoffmann, I take it that we are not discussing

11     here whether ordinary thieves would, in order to get some paper, in order

12     to -- for whatever reason -- the matter seemed to be clear the suggestion

13     was not ordinary thieves.  Apart from that, the witness did not respond

14     to that suggestion.  He said papers disappeared.  That's the evidence.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'm just looking at the record, Your Honours, and

17     I'm sorry to repeat, but at transcript 7 [sic] it says, you know:

18             "... the federal MUP ... became vulnerable to thieves and state

19     confidential material started to disappear, is that fair?"

20             And he said in the answer:

21             "It was to start earlier ..."

22             So at least if we now agree that it wasn't meant to be that

23     thieves would come and pick up documents, then I can leave it there.  But

24     the record is pretty clear that --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Paper disappeared.  And it is not suggested and

Page 4974

 1     since we do not have evidence at this moment on who had stolen that, that

 2     there's no reason to assume at this moment that these were ordinary

 3     thieves coming from the street.  Is that?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  That's correct.  And the evidence was given --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- I consider that it really doesn't assist

 6     the Chamber to explore in full depth this issue.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, I move on.

 9        Q.   Witness, during your testimony yesterday -- no, let me start this

10     way.  Today you were asked a number of questions about the presence and

11     what you learned about Frenki's Men.  Now, I just want to recall what you

12     stated yesterday on the record, and that is at transcript T4847.  You

13     stated, and I quote:

14             "Since I was tasked by my superior as the leader of the group for

15     Osijek to try and verify the situation in Srem and Osijek, I went

16     together ..." and I'll cut it short "... together we visited some of the

17     villages near Manastir and in the town itself."

18             And later on you said you talked to people in the villages, and I

19     quote then:

20             "They also talked about the presence of Chetniks, Chetnik

21     detachments, about Badza's Group or groups, also about the presence of

22     Frenki's Men, the Red Berets, Badza's Group ..."  And so on.

23             Now, my question to you is:  Apart from what you stated during

24     cross today that from a particular person in the barracks in

25     Beli Manastir, did you also learn from those villagers about the

Page 4975

 1     Red Berets?

 2        A.   I cannot confirm that from the villagers because they were mostly

 3     elderly people.  They said Chetniks, paramilitaries, Arkan's Men,

 4     White Eagles.  I have no idea.  I mean, please don't take my word for it

 5     now for each and every one of them.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'll leave it at that.  I want to bring up a just a video

 7     still, and that is of the so-called Kula camp video.  Exhibit P61.  And

 8     we are looking at minute 4, 43 seconds.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Before the -- I beg your pardon.  If my learned

10     friend is attempting to elicit new evidence concerning the identification

11     of one of the men mentioned during the witness's testimony present or

12     allegedly present at the Kula award ceremony, then we object.  This

13     should have been dealt with in chief.  It is opening a new line of

14     examination --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hoffmann, where does it arise from the

16     cross-examination the question that you would like to put to the witness

17     at this moment?

18             MR. HOFFMANN:  I'm having difficulties to directly respond

19     without, with my explanation, lead the witness of the possible

20     identification on those witnesses.  But it is about a key person that

21     we've talked about yesterday and today that he has knowledge of.  I'm not

22     going to ask anything else than to identify the person.

23             And I've tried to talk to both Defence teams even during the

24     break, whether we could just agree whether that particular person did

25     attend, yes or no.  I understand that both weren't sure about it and

Page 4976

 1     that's why they couldn't agree.  So all I want to establish --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute as to the identity of that

 3     person on this picture?  I mean ...

 4             MR. JORDASH:  We don't know.  We spoke to Mr. Hoffmann before the

 5     break and we said we weren't in a position to confirm or deny and we

 6     wanted time to consider it.  And we thought that was the end of the

 7     matter with this witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as opposed to our

10     friend Mr. Jordash we lived there at the time and we can say what the

11     identity of that first person here is, that is to say, we can confirm

12     what he wanted to get from the witness.  But what would that amount to?

13     Our testimony here?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, a matter that you agree upon with the

15     Prosecution, that the person to the left on this is -- do you agree on

16     who it is?  Who is it?

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, so if the question is

18     just, Who is this person in front of us, we can agree on that.  However,

19     we cannot say where the picture was taken, how, et cetera.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  Who is it as far as you are concerned?

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Petar Gracanin.  The first man on

22     the left.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  In agreement with the Prosecution?

24             MR. HOFFMANN:  Yes, absolutely.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's on the record.

Page 4977

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. HOFFMANN:

 3        Q.   Last question, witness --

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do apologise.  May

 5     this part where it says where it is from, everything that is to be said

 6     is who the person is.  That can be put to the witness, nothing more than

 7     that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But you agree.

 9             Now, Mr. Jordash, are you going to challenge that, or would you

10     join in the agreement?  Perhaps if you want to take instructions,

11     then ...

12             MR. JORDASH:  We join in the agreement.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  All three parties agree that it's

14     Mr. Gracanin.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17        Q.   And very briefly, Witness, you were asked today whether you had

18     expected any assistance from the Tribunal when giving evidence and

19     obviously the suggestion to you was that you fabricated your evidence.

20     My question to you is:  Did you ever invent any of your evidence before

21     this Tribunal?

22        A.   I didn't invent anything.  Perhaps it's only the passage of time

23     that affected my memory of persons, events, and situations.  Otherwise I

24     stand by everything I had said.

25        Q.   And my last question:  Is it correct, Witness, that your request

Page 4978

 1     for asylum in the country that you reside in has actually been denied a

 2     number of years ago already?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. HOFFMANN:  Thank you.  No further questions.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the re-examination triggered any need for

 6     further questions?

 7             Mr. Jordash.

 8   (redacted)

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Page 4979

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Page 4980











11 Page 4980 redacted. Private session.















Page 4981

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Page 4982











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Page 4983

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             We'll adjourn, and we resume on Monday the 17th of May, quarter

24     past 2.00 in this same courtroom, and for the public already to know that

25     we'll move into closed session almost immediately after we have resumed.

Page 4984

 1             We stand adjourned.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

 4                           May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.