1 Wednesday, 26 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. This is case number
8 IT-03-69-T. The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber apologises first of all for the late start. I was
11 dealing with a matter which I'd like to briefly discuss with the parties.
12 Next week we are scheduled to sit on Wednesday and Thursday. The Chamber
13 is exploring the possibilities of sitting on Tuesday and Wednesday
14 instead of Wednesday and Thursday for reasons which are foreign to this
15 case. It is still to be decided if we would sit on Tuesday, whether that
16 would be morning or afternoon. The Chamber always tries to schedule the
17 Stanisic/Simatovic case in the afternoons, which was, of course, at the
18 time primarily inspired by creating an opportunity for medical reports to
19 be produced during the morning hours. That may not be such an urgent
20 reason any more under the present circumstances, and we might further
21 consider that. But as matters stand now I would just like to know
22 whether it would cause any problem with the Defence teams to sit on
23 Tuesday rather than on Thursday. And I have to admit we have already
24 sought information from the Prosecution, because the Prosecution of
25 course had an additional problem, that is to secure the presence of the
1 witness, which is even more important. SO we checked that with the
2 Prosecution. Prosecution has no problems, as I understand, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: I wouldn't characterise it as no problems,
4 Your Honours, but they are surmountable problems, and we can have a
5 witness here on Tuesday.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I wonder whether there's any problem as far as
7 the Stanisic or the the Simatovic Defence is concerned.
8 MR. JORDASH: No problem for us, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No problem, neither morning or afternoon.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No problem for us either,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your co-operative attitude.
13 We'll then further proceed to see whether this can be scheduled.
14 I would like to before we call -- before the next witness will be
15 called, I would like to turn into closed session, or private session, but
16 that's the same in this courtroom.
17 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could I seek contact
11 with the representative of the Registry at the other side of the
13 Can you see us, can you hear us?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours.
15 Good afternoon everyone in and around the courtroom. We are here in the
16 field office.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in the field office, you can see us and you can
18 hear us apparently.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, we do.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We can also see and hear you you. Could you tell us
21 who is present in the room of the videolink.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We have two representatives of the
23 Registry and one technician, Your Honours. And the witness is present as
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And I see that the witness is present
2 Then, witness, can you hear me and can you see me?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
5 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the
6 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now
7 handed out to you by the Registrar. May I invite you to stand and to
8 make that solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated. Witness, you'll be
12 first examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.
13 Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
14 WITNESS: ANTE MARINOVIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 [Witness testified via videolink]
17 Examination by Mr. Weber.
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Marinovic. My name is Adam Weber. I just
19 wanted to confirm with you if you can see me by the way of videolink.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.
22 A. Ante Marinovic.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the microphone be
24 put closer to the witness, please.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. Mr. Marinovic, did you provide a statement to an investigator
2 from the ICTY on the date of 30 September 2000?
3 A. I think so.
4 Q. Did you review a statement that you provided to an investigator
5 from the ICTY on the 30th of September, 2000, prior to testifying here
7 A. Yes, today.
8 Q. Did you provide testimony in the case of Prosecutor versus
9 Milan Martic on the date of 23 March 2006
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you had the opportunity prior to testifying here today to
12 review your prior statement and your testimony from the Martic case in
13 your own language?
14 A. I have today.
15 Q. If you were asked the same questions that you were asked during
16 your previous statement and testimony, would you provide the same answers
17 in substance?
18 A. Well, it depends. I may have omitted something, forgotten
19 something, but for 80 per cent, I think I would.
20 Q. Well, are the answers that you provided in your previous
21 statement in previous testimony accurate?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 5325, the
24 2000 ICTY statement, and 65 ter 5324, the previous testimony from the
25 Martic case into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
2 Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers, first to the ICTY
3 statement, second to the Martic transcript.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. 65 ter 5235 is now
5 Exhibit P490. 65 ter 5234 is now Exhibit P491.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P490 and P491 are admitted into evidence.
7 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders the one
9 associated exhibit to Exhibit P491. It is a map which has been listed
10 under 65 ter 5326 with the ERN of 0501-3942.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. Madam Registrar, the map
12 would receive number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: 5326 will be now Exhibit P492.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P492 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. WEBER: Pursuant to the Trial Chamber's instructions of the
16 18th of February, 2010, the Prosecution at this time requests leave to
17 present a public summary of the evidence of Ante Marinovic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, has the witness been informed about the purpose
19 of -- then I'll do that first.
20 Witness, Mr. Weber will read a summary of your testimony, summary
21 of your evidence, that is, what is found in your statement and what is
22 found in the transcript in the Martic case. This is not the evidence,
23 but if a summary would not be read, the public would not know what your
24 testimony was about, so that's the one and only purpose of reading this
25 summary. Just wait until it's over and then Mr. Weber may have some
1 additional questions for you. Please proceed Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Ante Marinovic is a Croat male, age 31, at
3 the time of the events in 1991. The witness was a reserve police officer
4 in Benkovac and lived in the village of Bruska
5 almost exclusively a Croat village. Mr. Marinovic observed in the months
6 leading up to the war, that the Serbs from the surrounding villages
7 received weapons from the JNA. The first barricades were erected in
8 February of 1991, and the Croat inhabitants of the village were harassed
9 at these roadblocks. In the summer of 1991, military vehicles
10 continually passed through the village, this occurred during the attack
11 on Krusevo. Every two or three days, the witness observed Serb
12 paramilitaries come to Bruska. These paramilitaries went to the village
13 square or other places and threatened the Croat inhabitants. These
14 paramilitaries told the Croat villagers that this was Serb country and
15 that they should leave.
16 The village of Bruska
17 At around 8.00 in the evening, three men of Martic's police with Krajina
18 milicija insignias on their uniform broke into the home of the witness.
19 The witness; his father, Roko Marinovic; his brother, Dusko Marinovic;
20 and his uncle, Petar Marinovic; along with a Serb friend by the name of
21 Sveto Draca, who had refused to join the milicija, were ordered out of
22 the house and lined up against the wall. When -- I don't know if the
23 witness said something right now.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think he said something, but --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Friday.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's wait until Mr. Weber has finished reading his
2 summary. Yes.
3 MR. WEBER: When Petar and Sveto tried to run away, they were
4 shot and killed by the Martic's police. The witness's father and brother
5 were shot in the head. The witness was shot seven times and survived.
6 He succeeded to flee to relatives he had in Bijeljina. They took him to
7 the Benkovac hospital where his wounds were treated before being taken to
8 the Knin hospital to undergo surgery.
9 The witness underwent recovery at the Knin hospital where member
10 of Martic's police came and questioned him. At one point, the witness
11 heard the police officer state "this Ustasha must be slaughtered."
12 The witness provides evidence that besides the four persons he
13 saw killed, Ika Marinovic, Stana Marinovic, Josip Marinovic,
14 Manda Marinovic, Krste Marinovic, and Draginja Marinovic, all relatives
15 of the witness were also killed on the date of 21 December, 1991.
16 The witness provides evidence that after all of the Croat
17 villagers had left Bruska, Captain Dragan came to the village and
18 established a training centre called training centre Alfa in Bruska.
19 That completes the summary of the witness's evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber. Any additional questions for
21 the witness.
22 MR. WEBER: I do have some questions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Mr. Marinovic, the Prosecution would like to ask you some
1 questions regarding events that occurred prior to the date of the 21st of
2 December, 1991. On page 2474 of Exhibit P491, you were asked whether you
3 had seen any posters or anything from the SDS that led you to believe
4 that the SDS had support in your area. You answered that there were
5 posters all over the place. My question, sir, is could you please tell
6 us approximately when did you first see these posters in the area of
8 A. Well, when the campaign, the election campaign began.
9 Q. Approximately when did this election campaign begin?
10 A. Well, a month before the election in 1991.
11 Q. Do you recall what month that was?
12 A. It was May.
13 Q. What did these posters say on them?
14 A. There was just a picture of Jovan Raskovic and SDS on them.
15 Q. On page 2475 of Exhibit P491 you state that Sveto Draca told you
16 that the army was distributing weapons to the local Serbs. When did this
17 conversation with Sveto Draca occur?
18 A. Sveto was with us every day. We grew up together, we went to
19 school together.
20 Q. Do you recall when it was that Sveto told you that the army was
21 distributing weapons to local Serbs?
22 A. Immediately after the elections.
23 Q. Could you please approximate what month that was.
24 A. May, June, I don't know. I really can't remember exactly.
25 Q. In the first paragraph of page 3 of Exhibit P490, you state that:
1 "There were too many paramilitary units in the area during this
2 time. They were with the regular army. They all wore camouflage
3 uniforms and most were unshaven, had long hair, and they all had weapons.
4 You could first see these paramilitaries with the regular army in June,
5 July, 1991."
6 My question to you, sir, is what colour camouflage was worn by
7 these paramilitary groups?
8 A. Those camouflage uniforms were greenish yellowish black. As for
9 the paramilitaries and those men who came, and when they went against
10 Krusevo, they went together, the paramilitaries and the JNA. And the
11 latter, the JNA, had olive-drab uniforms. Actually, they all had
12 olive-drab uniforms usually worn by the JNA.
13 Q. Did the paramilitary units wear any insignias?
14 A. The Krajina police or the Krajina milicija.
15 Q. What type of weapons did these paramilitary units possess?
16 A. Automatic rifles.
17 Q. You've mentioned one incident with respect to Krusevo. Where
18 else would you see the paramilitary units with the army?
19 A. Around Benkovac. They were in Benkovac. You couldn't go to
20 Benkovac without being searched by them. Some 15 or 20 of them would
21 point their rifles at you. So what could you do? Nothing.
22 Q. On page 2475 of Exhibit P491, you stated that you were not able
23 to travel between Bruska and Benkovac in 1991 and stated that there were
24 barricades when you went to Medvidja and Benkovac. Who were the people
25 that were standing guard --
1 A. That's correct, yes.
2 Q. Sir, who were the people that were standing guard at these
4 A. In the direction of Medvidja, those were the locals of Medvidja.
5 And those who stood guard around Benkovac, hailed from around Benkovac,
6 from the neighbouring villages there.
7 Q. Were any members of the paramilitary units that you described
8 present at these barricades?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were they present at all the barricades, or were they only
11 present at certain individual barricades?
12 A. It depended on the village.
13 Q. Where -- were the Krajina milicija that you've described or those
14 individuals wearing those insignias present at barricades?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you see the Krajina milicija present at barricades?
17 A. Yes. The last time I went to Benkovac and back. And that was
18 actually the last time I ever went to Benkovac.
19 Q. Did you see them present at any other barricades besides the
20 barricades in the area of Benkovac?
21 A. Didn't go anywhere else. There was no chance for us to go
22 anywhere else, to go through them.
23 Q. On page 2512 of Exhibit P491, you stated that:
24 "When people moved out of Bruska, then this Captain Dragan came,
25 and that's where they set up these training grounds, and they were
1 training their army there."
2 When did the people you are referring to move out of Bruska?
3 A. I went on the 21st of December. That's when I left. And they
4 must have left around the 28th of December. They were all moved out from
5 there. I wasn't there so I'm not able to give you the exact date. By
6 then I was already in hospital in Knin.
7 Q. These other people who moved out of Bruska, what was their
9 A. Croats.
10 Q. Were these individuals who later moved out of Bruska civilians or
11 members of any armed forces?
12 A. Civilians.
13 Q. On page 2513 of Exhibit P491, you were asked the question:
14 "What was the connection between centre Alfa and Captain Dragan?
15 How did you make this connection?"
16 You answered:
17 "That's what they called it. Well, no, they -- they set this up.
18 It was called scientific centre Alfa" --
19 A. That was the Alfa centre, yes.
20 Q. Sir, thank you. I will finish your quote. I will reread your
21 full quote, and then I do have a question for you.
22 Your answer was: "That's what they called it. Well, no, they --
23 they set this up. It was called scientific centre Alfa, I don't know,
24 that's what it was called." Sir, if I could --
25 A. Yes, that's where the Special Police officers were trained. I
1 saw that on video-clips, but I wasn't there. I don't know what they did
2 there. The only way I can talk about that is to tell you what I saw on
3 video-clips. We found some materials there, and we reviewed them. I
4 wasn't there while this was going on to be able to tell you what was
5 going on.
6 Q. Sir, that is quite clear from your previous testimony. I'm going
7 to finish your statement from the Martic case. You continue to state:
8 "Then this Captain Dragan was there, and that's where he trained
9 soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training. I don't know, but judging
10 by what we saw, this footage, you can see everything."
11 Sir, my question to you is that, in your previous testimony, you
12 referred to "they" called it centre Alfa, and "they set this up." Who
13 were you referring to?
14 A. The Serbs. The Krajina police.
15 Q. These Special Police forces that were being trained there, are
16 these the same Krajina milicija that you've previously mentioned here
17 today or a different group of Special Police?
18 A. Well, you are asking me too much. I told you what I'd seen. I
19 don't know where they were from, who they were, where they had come from.
20 I don't know.
21 Q. Well, you describe seeing footage. What type of uniforms or
22 insignias were the individuals wearing in this footage?
23 A. The Special Police of Krajina.
24 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
1 Which Defence team will cross-examine the witness first?
2 Mr. Bakrac, it will be you.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, it will be me, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Marinovic, you will now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Marinovic.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. The presiding judge has introduced me to you. And before I start
10 putting questions to you, I would firstly like to say a few words on
11 behalf of Mr. Simatovic and on behalf of our Defence team and express our
12 condolences for the tragedy that you experienced. The questions that
13 I'll have for you will not go against what you experienced. I'm not
14 going to try to of prove that the incident did not happen. I'll just try
15 and shed light on some things that you have already stated.
16 Can I begin?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Marinovic, you explained that you had resided in the village
19 of Bruska and that the village had about 400 inhabitants; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You said that out of the 400 inhabitants, there are five Serb
23 houses or households; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Since you spoke about 400 inhabitants, when you say five houses,
1 are we talking about some 20 people altogether?
2 A. It could have been four, three, or five more, but you can easily
3 say that there were about 20 people living in those houses.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Marinovic, is it correct that in your village
5 Bruska multiparty elections took place and that there was the local HDZ
7 A. Could you please repeat your question.
8 Q. Is it true that in your village Bruska, there was a local board
9 of the Croatian Democratic Union
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Marinovic, did you or any of your family members belong to
12 the HDZ? Were you members of the HDZ or the local board of the HDZ?
13 A. No, none of us were, but I did vote for the HDZ.
14 Q. You said that you had seen posters, my learned friend asked you,
15 but I would like the other side to be heard for the general public. You
16 said that you heard the SDS posters, but were there also HDZ posters?
17 A. Of course. There were both, of course.
18 Q. Did those posters depicted Franko Tudjman?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Marinovic, is it correct that already at the time it was
21 known that the HDZ had promised that if they came into power, the Serbs
22 would lose the status of a constituent people in Croatia?
23 A. I don't know anything about politics. I do not engage in
25 Q. Mr. Marinovic, your answers so --
1 A. I still continue to give you fair answers.
2 Q. I know that you don't engage in politics, but I believe that this
3 was a notorious fact. Let me ask you again, did you hear that on
4 television that there were some disputes about that and that the Serbs
5 rebelled because of that, because of the announcements that if the HDZ
6 won in the elections, they would be thrown out of the constitution as the
7 constituent people?
8 A. Why couldn't they be a minority?
9 Q. So you are saying that you know that they were supposed to become
10 a minority, and now you are wondering why shouldn't they be a minority,
11 why shouldn't that be the case?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marinovic.
14 Mr. Marinovic, you said that you were a member of the reserve
15 police from 1990.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you become a member of the reserve police immediately after
18 the HDZ won in the elections in your village?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As a reserve police officer, did you have a uniform? Did the
21 others have uniforms?
22 A. No.
23 Q. As the reserve police force and a reserve policeman, did you bear
25 A. No.
1 Q. Mr. Marinovic, do you know that the HDZ armed its members? I'm
2 not referring to you personally, but were you familiar with the fact?
3 A. Yes, that was known, but we could not obtain weapons at the time.
4 Q. As a member of the reserve police, you said that you were
5 supposed to defend your village as reserve policemen.
6 A. Not to defend it, but to protect it. What were we supposed to
7 defend it with?
8 Q. What was your duty when it came to protecting your village?
9 A. If something happened we were there to guard the village, and if
10 something happened we would alert the others to flee.
11 Q. Did you you report to anybody about what you saw in -- on the
13 A. No, nobody, just to the others in the village. Who was I
14 supposed to report to?
15 Q. Witness, my learned friend asked you earlier today whether you
16 recognised paramilitaries at the barricades. Just a moment, please, bear
17 with me. Could you please wait for me to finish my question and then
18 start answering.
19 Did I understand you properly that at the barricades you noticed
20 members of the JNA, members of the police of Krajina, and the
21 paramilitaries? Or when you say paramilitaries, did you only mean
22 members of the Krajina police?
23 A. Yes, that's what I meant. The Krajina police who were actually
25 Q. So what you are saying is that they were members of JNA and
1 members of the Krajina police, and the latter were, for you,
2 paramilitaries; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, tell me please, when we are talking about the barricades,
5 could you give us the time-frame?
6 A. At the beginning of August 1991. Or before August, thereabouts.
7 Q. Were the barricades put up in front of the entrances into Serb
8 villages or villages with a majority Serbian population?
9 A. It was all one road.
10 Q. Yes. I agreed with you that there was a barricade, but please
11 tell me whether the barricades were also put up in front of the villages
12 or settlements with predominantly Serbian population.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. You said that there were attacks on Krusevo. Did you
15 ever notice any attack on any other village in your environment?
16 A. I could not notice any because all the villages were at a
17 distance, and I saw the attack on Krusevo when they were pounding the
18 village from Medvidja, and I saw lorries and tanks moving in from
19 Benkovac against Krusevo.
20 Q. Could you please tell us whether there is a special reason why of
21 all Croatian villages, the JNA would attack only Krusevo and nothing
22 else, no others?
23 A. But it was not only Krusevo. There were other villages from
24 Benkovac, Jesenice, Lepure, Luksic, Bunic, but I could not see all those
25 village, they were at a distance from me.
1 Q. And do you know that in Krusevo there was an armed HDZ unit
2 deployed there or, rather, members of the Croatian police?
3 A. They defended their own state.
4 Q. Sir, I'm not discussing that with you. That is your point of
5 view, which I respect and which I value. My question was whether there
6 were members of the HDZ and ZNG in Krusevo and in all those places where
7 fighting took place.
8 A. There was the Croatian police there.
9 Q. Did they call themselves the Zengas ZNGs?
10 A. I did not hear that question.
11 Q. Did they call themselves the national guards?
12 A. I did not hear that I was not close to there. I couldn't hear
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Marinovic, please make a little pause after the
15 question has been put to you and slow down your speed of speech, because
16 if you want us to hear your testimony, you should speak at a speed which
17 can be followed by our interpreters.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Marinovic, I would like to repeat that I don't intend to
21 discuss things with you. I'm just trying to establish what the truth is,
22 and so far my impression has been that you are fully prepared to tell the
23 truth. That's why I would like to clarify some things. There's no need
24 for you to provide hasty answers or argue with me.
25 Mr. Marinovic, when you mentioned the police of Krajina at the
1 barricades, did you mean local Serbs?
2 A. Ninety per cent.
3 Q. And when you say 90 per cent, you are not sure who the other
4 10 per cent were because you could not know all of them by name, could
6 A. How was I supposed to know all of them? I didn't know all of
7 them, of course. But I knew those who lived around me, I knew them, and
8 I used to see them.
9 Q. Mr. Marinovic, on the 21st of December when the unfortunate
10 incidents struck your family, and this is an understatement because it
11 was a tragedy, there was a Serb with you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was he wearing a uniform?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is it true that when you provided your statement in Zadar that
16 you stated that he had worn an olive-drab uniform on that occasion?
17 A. No, that's not true. He did not wear a uniform. No. That must
18 be a mistake.
19 Q. Very well. Could you please tell us what was that Serb
20 gentleman's occupation?
21 A. He was a postman.
22 Q. That Serb when the three other men entered, and you say that they
23 sported the insignia of the police of Krajina on their sleeves, did he
24 try to tell them that he was a Serb, that they should not shoot at him,
25 or anything to that effect?
1 A. There was no time. He did not have the time to say any of that.
2 Q. Witness, did you recognise any of the three?
3 A. One of them. One of them I knew because we used to play football
4 in the past. I did [as interpreted] know his first and last name, but I
5 did see him at one of these matches we had in Medvidja.
6 Q. So this one person, to the best of your knowledge, was a person
7 who was from Medvidja, a village close to Bruska?
8 A. No, he was not from Medvidja. I think he was from Bilisane.
9 Q. And Lisane is another village close to Bruska; correct?
10 A. Bilisane.
11 Q. I apologise. I didn't hear you correctly. So Bilisane is
12 another local place near Bruska; correct?
13 A. Well, it is some 10 kilometres away from Bruska.
14 Q. Did you learn subsequently that these two other individuals were
15 local Serbs, perhaps from the same village as the one that you
17 A. No, some people say that they were from that village, some say he
18 wasn't, but I didn't recognise them.
19 Q. Yes, but subsequently you heard from some other people that these
20 two were also from Bilisane?
21 A. Well, what somebody else said, and you know -- people who --
22 hearsay and gossip, I don't know. But I just saw this one person that I
23 recognised. I did not know these other two people.
24 Q. Yes, I understood you clearly, but let us repeat for the
25 transcript. You subsequently heard that these two men, these two other
1 men were also from Bilisane.
2 A. I never said that, nor did I ever hear that. I never said or
3 heard anything, because I cannot say anything about things I did not see,
4 and I won't say anything that I myself did not see or hear.
5 Q. Very well. Now, sir, when members of what you call the
6 paramilitaries came to your village before this day, before the 21st of
7 December, and harassed you by saying things like, This is Serbia, you
8 must leave, would you agree that these were people from Medvidja, this
9 was a Serbian village near Bruska?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 Sir, when this tragedy occurred, other than these three men, did
13 you see any other soldiers in Bruska on the 21st of December?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Except for the members of your family that you listed here, did
16 you hear of anyone else in Bruska being killed on that 21st of December?
17 A. No, no one other than us.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, you explained who was in the house sitting
19 and playing cards with you. Were there any children in the house
21 A. Yes, my late brother's children were there.
22 Q. Did anyone harass them or interfere with them in any way?
23 A. No, they were upstairs.
24 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you managed to pull out, wounded as you
25 were, I believe that you managed to get to the village of
1 Kalanjevo Draga; correct?
2 A. Yes, Kalanjevo Draga.
3 Q. Was that a Serb village?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Whom did you go to see in that Serbian village Kalanjevo Draga?
6 A. To Mirko Kaleja's [phoen] house.
7 Q. Is he a relative of yours?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is he a Serb?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he call the emergency service? And if so, was there an
12 ambulance sent, and from where?
13 A. Well, he didn't. It was his wife who called the emergency
15 Q. All right. It was his wife. Where did the ambulance come from?
16 A. I don't know, but they came about 20 minutes later, or 30 minutes
17 at the most. I don't know where they had come from.
18 Q. Where did the ambulance take you?
19 A. To Benkovac.
20 Q. Was Benkovac a Serb place?
21 A. Well, no, it wasn't a Serb place.
22 Q. How many Serb -- or, rather, was the majority of the population
23 in Benkovac Serbian?
24 A. Well, it was about 50/50.
25 Q. Was the Serbian party in power at the time in Benkovac?
1 A. Yes, because the army armed them and then they chased Croats from
2 the -- they expelled Croats from the surrounding villages away.
3 Q. Were there Serbs in uniform in the ambulance who took you then to
4 Benkovac to the hospital?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the Chamber is wondering the relevance
7 of who exactly called the ambulance and whether Benkovac was a Serb city
8 or Serb village or not, because the charges are not that every Serb is
9 wrong-doing or that people in Benkovac or ambulance drivers are doing
10 wrong things, so, therefore, it's -- the Chamber doesn't understand what
11 the relevance of most of your last series of questions would have been.
12 It is already clear --
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be very frank. I
14 am not going into any analysis now, nor is this my final brief, but I'm
15 just trying to point out that this may have been a fluke, an incident
16 that just happened unrelated to anything else. And then I assume that I
17 will finish with my cross-examination with -- by the end of this session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And that is to be established through questions
19 like, Did the husband or the wife call the ambulance? That's -- well, if
20 I wanted to establish that it was just an incident, nothing else, then I
21 would -- but I leave it to you at this very moment. But just for you to
22 be aware --
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me, I
24 think it is relevant because if men wearing a military uniform take you
25 to a hospital, then I assume that this cannot be treated as part of a
1 plan, but rather -- well, I won't go into this any further. If you allow
2 me another 10 minutes, I will complete my cross-examination.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Sir, were you sent from Benkovac to Knin to the hospital to
6 undergo surgery?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was Knin, too, under Serb control at the time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said that a member of the Serbian milicija came to the
11 hospital. From your statements it does not come out clearly. Did he
12 question you, or did he just say, This Ustasha is to be liquidated?
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that, and Dr. Ignjatovic
15 was there, and he said, Sir, you just leave this room because this is --
16 I am the boss here and not you. And if I were to see that doctor again,
17 I would roast a lamb in His Honour.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So he did not question you in any ways, he just said what he
20 said. And Dr. Ignjatovic was a Serb then threw him out of the hospital.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Witness, once you recovered did you go to Knin which was under
23 Serb control to the bus station, get on a bus, and go to Benkovac by bus?
24 A. No, I went to Vode Polace to see my late brother's wife, that's
25 where her parents were.
1 Q. I apologise, it is my error. So it wasn't Benkovac, it was
2 Vode Polje. But you just went to the bus station there, got on a bus,
3 and went to Vode Polje; correct?
4 A. Well, I did not get on a bus in Vode Polace.
5 Q. How did you go there?
6 A. By bus.
7 Q. Well, I didn't understand you then. Did you say you didn't get
8 on a bus, but you just went by bus?
9 A. Well, that's a different question.
10 Q. And then when you reached Dobro Polje were you driven by car by
11 an inspector who was a member of the police of Serbian Krajina? Was he
12 an inspector, what was his name, and where did he take you from and where
14 A. He took me from Benkovac to my home.
15 Q. To Bruska?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who took you from Benkovac to Bruska?
18 A. I believe that his name was Milan, but I can't remember his
19 family name.
20 MR. WEBER: If we could just have a clarification in here. I
21 didn't exactly hear the translation. I don't know if Mr. Bakrac referred
22 to policija or milicija in his original question at 26/4. But if we
23 could be clear in that distinction when discussing this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, could you provide the relevant
25 clarification including what you said in your question.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, was the person who took you in his car from Benkovac to
3 your house a member of the Krajina milicija?
4 A. He was an inspector. I believe his name was Milan Puza or
5 something like that. I may have forgotten, but I think it could easily
6 have been Milan Puza.
7 Q. When you say inspector, where was he an inspector and what
9 A. In Benkovac.
10 Q. He was an inspector in Benkovac, I don't want to lead you, but I
11 just want to ask you, was he an inspector of the Krajina milicija?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At the time when this milicija Krajina inspector took you in his
14 car from Benkovac to Bruska to your home, was Milan Martic at the time
15 the minister the interior of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you, witness, and I will take advantage of the five minutes
18 that we have left before the break to ask you something about the science
19 centre Alfa. You said quite honestly that you actually saw this after
20 you saw the video-tapes that you had found. Now, I would like to put it
21 to you that up until 1993 there was no science centre there at all. Do
22 you agree with that?
23 A. No, I don't, because they came then.
24 Q. Very well, tell us then, when you say science centre and you saw
25 these video-clip, what could you see in the video-clip? What was being
1 done at that centre?
2 A. Well, training for the army, Special Police.
3 Q. And what did you see? What kind of training was that?
4 A. Well, it was training. What could training consist of but
6 Q. So you served in the Yugoslav People's Army; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that the type of training similar to what you had gone
9 through when you served in the Yugoslav People's Army?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. Well, what was the difference?
12 A. Well, we didn't shoot. I was in artillery while I was in the
13 army, whereas these people, they underwent training, they had rifles
14 shooting. I could see all of that. They came by helicopter.
15 Q. Witness, you are now telling us something about your own
16 training, but was it while you were --
17 A. No, no, no, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Wait, Mr. Marinovic, until the question has been
19 phrased, then take a little break, then answer the question. And
20 Mr. Bakrac is also invited to make a little break after you've answered
21 the question. Please proceed. Wait until the question has been
22 finished, Mr. Marinovic.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Marinovic, I am afraid we did not understand each other. I
25 may have been unclear, and I apologise.
1 Now, you were telling us about your training in the JNA in a
2 special branch. Now, I am asking you about the JNA infantry. Did they
3 also undergo training and rifle shooting and so on?
4 A. Well, I wasn't in infantry so I don't know.
5 Q. Very well, Mr. Marinovic, if you don't know, you don't. That's
6 quite all right.
7 Could you now just tell us something about the video-clips. Did
8 you see this video-clip in Bruska, the people in Bruska, or did you see
9 it on TV? Was it broadcast by the Croatian television after
10 Operation Storm?
11 A. No, it wasn't broadcast by the Croatian television. We found
12 this at the centre, and we watched the video-clip ourselves.
13 Q. When you say we found this, Mr. Marinovic, were you a member of
14 the Croatian army, and did you participate in Operation Storm?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Very well. But if I understood you correctly, the video-tapes
17 were found when the Croatian army liberated Bruska following
18 Operation Storm; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And they did not seize those tapes but, rather, they let the
21 local people like you take those video-tapes and then watch them;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marinovic. Thank you for your answers. I have no
25 further questions, Your Honours. And thank you for the time that you've
1 allotted me.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. Is there any need for
4 MR. WEBER: One question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry, Mr. -- I was informed that you would have no
6 questions for the witness, but I should have asked you in court,
7 Mr. Jordash.
8 MR. JORDASH: May I ask two questions, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, you are fully entitled to
10 cross-examine the witness. It was mainly on the basis of this
11 understanding that I didn't address you.
12 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Marinovic, you will now be cross-examined by
14 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
16 Q. Good afternoon. Can you hear me?
17 Good afternoon. Can you hear me?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, can you hear Mr. Jordash?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. I've just got two --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- or three questions.
24 In Exhibit P491, your previous testimony, page 2513, with
25 reference to the scientific centre Alfa, at line 12 and 13 you are
1 commenting on who or what is being trained by Captain Dragan, and you
3 "Then this Captain Dragan was there, and that's where he trained
4 soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training, I don't know."
5 Today when commenting on the training, you have focused and
6 labelled the training as training of Krajina police.
7 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 13 of the transcript.
8 Q. So at the time of your previous testimony, you were stating that
9 you did not know who or what was being trained, and now you say Krajina
11 MR. WEBER: Objection, that is a misstatement of the testimony.
12 I believe he did say that they were policemen. It was not further
13 explored at the time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any challenge to a quote, could you
15 literally ...
16 MR. JORDASH: I did read the quote precisely from the transcript,
17 page 2513, where the witness said:
18 "That's where he trained soldiers, policemen, whatever he was
19 training, I don't know."
20 MR. WEBER: But then the following question, I believe, stated it
21 differently than that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, Mr. Jordash is free to -- if you think
23 that the other part is relevant and it should be put to the witness, you
24 can do it in re-examination, Mr. Weber. And at the same time Mr. Jordash
25 is aware that it doesn't bring him very much to be incomplete if there's
1 a risk that the next lines are considered to be relevant.
2 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, may I inquire from the Prosecution,
3 because I certainly don't want to be fair, but I cannot see the context
4 that my learned friend wants me to put.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then we should first ask the witness to
6 take off his earphones.
7 Mr. Marinovic, could you take off your earphones for a second.
8 Mr. Weber, is any chance that the witness would understand or speak
10 MR. WEBER: I do not believe so.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER: Just to clarify, in the previous testimony there were
13 follow-up questions that were being asked to the witness by the
14 Trial Chamber. The witness did indicate that there were policemen, and
15 it wasn't further explored. So to state that the witness didn't ask
16 this, I believe is misleading. The witness did indicate that there were
17 policemen. I think a fair question might be -- would be, You didn't --
18 you were not asked or you did not mention that these were Krajina police
19 at that time. The way it was phrased to the witness has the inference
20 that he intentionally did not provide that information or did not know it
21 at that time.
22 MR. JORDASH: Could my learned friend indicate which part of the
23 transcript he is referring to, so I may just find it and not mislead, if
24 I am misleading, which I don't, at the moment, accept.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking -- are we -- let me just check.
1 MR. WEBER: I believe it is -- the question that counsel is
2 referring to -- and I'm sorry if I misunderstood this. It was follow-up
3 questions by Mr. Black that were precipitated by Chamber questions.
4 Point just being, that the witness was asked a brief question about this,
5 and he did say policemen. There was no exploring who the policemen was
6 that he was referring to at the time. As consistent with the 92 ter
7 practice, Prosecution asked further explanation of the evidence he
8 provided. I believe counsel's reference to this here today is misleading
9 because he is inferring that the witness didn't provide such information
10 or didn't know that information at that time in 2003.
11 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honours, my learned friend cannot point
12 to a part of the transcript which I ought to be putting to the witness.
13 MR. WEBER: It's the same part that was referred to. I'm just
14 asking that it be accurately -- the follow-up question. The part put to
15 him was perfectly fine.
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, Mr. Black in the transcript says, Thanks very
17 much. No further questions. And the -- I really do not see what my
18 learned friend is referring to. I'm referring to the witness saying, I
19 don't know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's get -- what page exactly are we talking
22 MR. JORDASH: I'm looking at 2513, Your Honour. I'm not sure
23 what my learned friend is looking at.
24 MR. WEBER: I'm looking at the exact same section; however, on
25 page 30, lines 22 to 24, the follow-up question was:
1 "So at the time of your previous testimony" --
2 JUDGE ORIE: But let me just, am I right that you are referring
3 to the evidence the witness gave today in this case; and you are
4 referring to the evidence the witness gave in the Martic case?
5 MR. JORDASH: Well, I'm referring to two. I'm referring to the
6 transcript where the witness clearly says, I don't know. And then to the
7 evidence today where the witness is more specific. There may not be an
8 inconsistency, but the witness ought without, in our submission, my
9 learned friend jumping up, be given a chance to explain that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that -- one second.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the objection is denied. Mr. Jordash can
13 proceed as he did.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Witness, I'll be very brief --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's first -- oh, yes, he has his earphones
18 on again. Yes.
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. Do you want me to read that section of the transcript from your
21 previous testimony again so that you understand what I'm asking you and
22 so that I don't in any way mislead you.
23 When you were asked about the scientific centre Alfa and who was
24 there, you answered line 12, page 2513:
25 "Then this Captain Dragan was there, and that's where he trained
1 soldiers, policemen, whatever he was training, I don't know."
2 And today you were being specific and said that it was the
3 Krajina police who were being trained. Could you explain why it was in
4 the transcript in your previous testimony you said, I don't know, and
5 today where you are specific and focused on Krajina police?
6 A. I am just saying things that I saw myself and nothing else. How
7 would I know whom they were training? Whether it was the police or
8 milicija or the army, whoever, how would I know that?
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness, and I've got nothing further except to
10 express my client's sympathy for your tragic experience. Thank you very
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash. We would under normal
13 circumstances take a break now, but how much -- only a few questions.
14 Then I suggest that we try to conclude the evidence of this witness.
15 Mr. Weber
16 Re-examination by Mr. Weber:
17 Q. Mr. Marinovic, can you hear me?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Today on page 19, line 22, you stated that approximately
20 90 per cent of the Special Police of the Krajina were local Serbs. Could
21 you please tell us where the other 10 per cent came from?
22 A. Well, probably from Serbia
23 Q. Were you able to hear these other individuals who you believe
24 were from Serbia
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a leading
1 question. He should rephrase the question to read, how do you know that
2 they had come from Serbia
3 MR. WEBER: I believe the question was not leading. I was trying
4 to be efficient with it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the proper phrasing of the question would
6 have been, Were you able to hear these other individuals who you believed
7 were probably from Serbia
8 that question.
9 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And if you want to establish, of course, that what
11 he believed probably to be the case, then of course, it would be useful
12 to lay a foundation for that.
13 MR. WEBER: Of course.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Sir, were you able to hear these other individuals who you
17 believed were from Serbia
18 A. No, I wasn't close to them. I never got close enough.
19 Q. What is the reason that you believe that these approximately
20 10 per cent of the other individuals from the Special Police of the
21 Krajina came from Serbia
22 A. Because there was some Arkan person there, and he brought these
23 people over.
24 Q. When did this occur?
25 A. Well, at the very start he brought -- this Arkan person, he
1 brought them from Serbia
2 that on TV or in the media. Whether he is alive or not alive, I don't
3 know, but him.
4 Q. Could you please give us an approximate date when you believe
5 that this Arkan person brought over people that became members of the
6 Special Policija of the Krajina from Serbia?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, again my learned
8 colleague is putting words into the witness's mouth. The witness did not
9 say that these Arkan's Men later on became members of the Special Police.
10 He only spoke about the barricades, the whole story, this exchange is
11 about barricades, and the 10 per cent on the barricades. So I would
12 really appreciate it if the witness -- if the Prosecution refrained from
13 asking this type of question in redirect. This is not even proper for
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I'll invite Mr. Weber to rephrase his
16 question. At the same time, if you just object to the question, there's
17 no need to elaborate on how inappropriate it is to put certain questions
18 and whether it is in chief or not. Just object to the question on
19 technical grounds, and then we'll decide on the matter.
20 Mr. Weber.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the question was directly phrased from
22 the three previous answers. I'll restate it.
23 Q. Could you please give us an approximate date when you believe
24 that this Arkan person brought over people that you have stated became
25 members of the Special Police of the Krajina?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. Could
2 Mr. Weber please point to the line where he said that these people who
3 had been brought by Arkan later on became members of the Special Police
4 in Krajina. Could he please point to that part of the testimony, and if
5 I made an error, I apologise.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: He is testifying to page 36, line 2 through 6, that
8 because this Arkan person brought these people over from Serbia.
9 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, at the end of the day, I'm just trying
11 to ask a simple date, approximately when this occurred that Arkan brought
12 these people.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The people who turned out then because whether they
14 then became members of the Special Police or whether they were already,
15 for example, it's not literally taken from the testimony, so you
16 rephrased it slightly. But if you would be happy to ask for a date,
17 please, I'll not stop you.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Sir, I'm just asking you of the approximate date in which you
20 believe Arkan brought these people over.
21 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to object. The witness hasn't said Arkan
22 brought the people over. He said "this Arkan person." We don't quite
23 know what that means, but it's certainly quite different possibly to
25 MR. WEBER: I believe we are just playing with semantics here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, Mr. Jordash is right. If you --
2 Witness Marinovic, you told us about people you believed came
3 from Serbia
4 what the reason was that you believed that these approximately
5 10 per cent of the other individuals from the Special Police of the
6 Krajina came from Serbia
7 person there, and he brought these people over. Now, Mr. Weber would
8 like to put a question to you in relation to those persons having been
9 brought over.
10 Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Approximately when were these people brought over?
13 A. At the very beginning of the war.
14 Q. Approximately when are you referring to? If you could please
15 give an approximate month and year.
16 A. In April 1991, I believe that's when it was.
17 MR. WEBER: Nothing further.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Bakrac, any further questions?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know it's time for
21 the break. I just have two quick questions.
22 Further cross-examination Mr. Bakrac:
23 Q. Witness, could you please tell us, when did you hear about this
24 Arkan person for the first time?
25 A. Well, for the first time I heard about him when he was captured
1 on Dinara near Knin. And when there was an exchange where he was
2 exchanged, he was captured by the Croatian police, he had weapons with
4 Q. And you saw this shown on Croatian television?
5 A. Yes, yes, and he was exchanged.
6 Q. And my last question is, do you allow that it is possible --
7 because you said that you did not hear these 10 per cent of the people on
8 the barricades, you did not hear them speak. Do you allow the
9 possibility that those 10 per cent of the members were local Serbs that
10 you did not know, because I assume that you did not know every single
11 person from your area?
12 A. Of course I didn't know everyone. How would I know who came from
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
15 further questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Jordash.
17 MR. JORDASH: May I just ask a follow-up, please.
18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
19 Q. Mr. Witness, could I just ask you this, you spoke about some
20 Arkan person and people being brought over. Was this a rumour that you
22 A. Well, yes, yes.
23 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Thank you, very much. Nothing further,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
1 Mr. Marinovic, this concludes your evidence. I would like to
2 thank you very much for coming to the video location and for having
3 answered the questions that were put to you by the parties, and -
4 although very limited by the Bench - I wish you a safe return home again.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then this also concludes the videolink. We will
7 take a break.
8 After the break I'll first deliver a decision which is relevant
9 for the next witness to be called. I might have one or two observations.
10 It will altogether not take more than seven to eight minutes, and then
11 we'll start with the next witness. We'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.
12 [Witness's evidence via videolink concluded]
13 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: A few matters in relation to the testimony we've
16 just heard.
17 Mr. Bakrac, you asked the witness whether the witness had said in
18 the Zadar statement that Sveto or the postman, or whatever you want to
19 call him, did wear a uniform. The witness said, No, that's not what I
20 said. And then you just continued. Now, either there is a reason why
21 you think that the statement is not correctly put on paper and then you
22 should pursue the matter, or there's no reason whatsoever, but then you
23 should refrain from asking such a question. Because I didn't find
24 anything about wearing a uniform in the Zadar statement of the witness.
25 It may be that you have mixed it up with another witness who said
1 something about a uniform. But -- Mr. Petrovic.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The accused are not receiving the
3 interpretation. I apologise.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you now receive my words interpretation? I
5 just made an observation about the technical part of the
6 cross-examination of the previous witness.
7 Mr. Bakrac, I didn't find anything, so therefore either there is
8 some real issue, then explore it, or leave it. That's clear? Then
9 another matter that struck the Chamber -- yes, Mr. --
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I can't find
11 that part in his previous testimony. He was presented as having stated
12 that Sveto did have a uniform and then at that trial he was not sure
13 whether he did or did not have a uniform.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you referred to the Zadar statement. You
15 asked him about his statement. You didn't ask anything about the
16 transcript from what I remember. You asked, Did you say that in the
17 Zadar statement? The witness said, No. Where it was unclear whether he
18 denied that it was true or whether he denied that he had said it, that
19 has not even been clarified, and then you moved on. So, therefore, real
20 issues, please explore them. It will assist the Chamber, but let's try
21 to find them.
22 There is another matter, Mr. Bakrac, but that's -- perhaps I
23 should -- or perhaps address --
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I may
25 not have been clear in my he question. That's why the answer wasn't
1 clear. I did not dwell too much upon it because I did not think it was
2 at all relevant after all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then you should have refrained from it entirely.
4 There's another matter. We spent yesterday quite some time on
5 the agreed facts. Mr. Petrovic, you'll certainly remember that I --
6 well, I won't say I had to force you into that, but at least to encourage
7 you very much to pay serious attention to that. Now, in relation to
8 that, today we heard from Mr. Bakrac that the event as such in Bruska was
9 not challenged. Agreed fact A(I), SAO Krajina, and the number 4, reads:
10 "On the 21st of December, 1991, ten civilians, including nine
11 Croats, were intentionally killed in the village of Bruska
12 of Marinovic. The names of victims that were identified are contained in
13 annex A, part E. Now, in that part we find the names of the victims.
14 The Chamber has great difficulties in understanding why you could not
15 agree on this where at the same time when the witness is called you do
16 not challenge it in any of the relevant parts. I mean, the date has not
17 been challenged; that there were ten civilians, apart from this one
18 question, did he wear a uniform, but you considered it not to be very
19 relevant; including nine Croats, that was already clear for the
20 statement, but you sought it to be confirmed, don't ask me why; but that
21 there was one Serb was already clear from the statement; including nine
22 Croats, were intentionally killed, that has not been challenged; in the
23 village of Bruska in the hamlet of Marinovic, which has not been
24 challenged; the names of the victims were not in any way challenged. So
25 the only thing that then remains is their years of birth, but even there
1 you did not ask one question about it. So I really -- it is said that
2 you need an enormous amount of time; whereas, apparently preparing for
3 these witnesses you look at it, and you do not challenge it. So why then
4 not agree on it?
5 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you know that my
7 colleague Mr. Petrovic and I are in a very dire position when it comes to
8 the list of adjudicated facts. We would like to look at the whole list
9 and be able to respond to the whole list. We can respond to individual
10 incidents like the one in Bruska, for example, but that would be from
11 time to time, every now and then. We've been given a dead-line, and we
12 will make sure to investigate everything in order to be sure that things
13 did happen. The incident in Bruska is just one of the incidents, or,
14 rather, one of the events involving casualties, and that's one of those
15 that we do not dispute. But we did not want to respond just to one or
16 two events and leave the others until later. We wanted to look at the
17 whole list and then respond to the whole list.
18 You gave us a dead-line yesterday. We will try and respect it,
19 but please bear in mind that we got involved in the case when we did.
20 There are many other things that we are trying to do at the same time,
21 and, therefore, we are begging your indulgence and understanding.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on record. I just wanted to let you
23 know that you also, of course, could have informed the Prosecution prior
24 to presenting this witness that there was no dispute about this and this
25 and this and this, and even if that would not have been a final response
1 to the proposal for adjudicated facts.
2 I would like to read a decision relevant for the witness to come.
3 And I already informed the booth that there are slight changes compared
4 to the written version, specifically in the reference to another case.
5 This is the Chamber's decision on the Prosecution's motion for
6 the augmentation of protective measures for witness JF-035. In its
7 motion filed the 7th of May, 2010, the Prosecution requested the Chamber
8 to augment the protective measures currently in place for witness JF-035
9 and to allow his testimony to be given entirely in closed session.
10 Witness JF-035 was previously granted protective measures in another case
11 before this Tribunal.
12 On the 13th of May, 2010, the Prosecution indicated to the
13 Chamber through an informal communication that witness JF-035 is very
14 anxious about his scheduled testimony and that knowing the Chamber's
15 decision would set his mind at ease. On the same day, the Chamber asked
16 the Stanisic Defence and the Simatovic Defence in court to file any
17 responses to the Prosecution's motions by the close of business on the
18 17th of May, thus shortening the time-period for responses pursuant to
19 Rule 126 bis of the rules. And this can be found at transcript
20 pages 4949 and 4950.
21 On the 14th of May, 2010, both Defence teams informed the Chamber
22 through an informal communication that they did not wish to file any
23 responses to the motion. On the 18th of May, 2010, the Chamber informed
24 the parties, again through an informal communication, that it had decided
25 to grant the Prosecution's motion and that this decision would be put on
1 the record at a later stage.
2 In its motion, the Prosecution submits that witness JF-035 has
3 particularly serious security concerns and that, in spite of the
4 protective measures granted in the other case, witness JF-035 and his
5 family were subject to numerous death threats directly connected with his
6 testimony in that case. The Prosecution submits, therefore, that it is
7 apparent that the protective measures granted to witness JF-035 in the
8 other case before the Tribunal were insufficient to protect his identity.
9 Pursuant to Rule 75(I) of the rules. The Chamber has consulted
10 with those judges who initially granted the protective measures to
11 witness JF-035 and who remain judges of the Tribunal. Further, pursuant
12 to Rule 75(J) of the rules, the Chamber has made inquiries with the
13 Victims and Witness Section and can confirm that witness JF-035 fully
14 consents to the augmented protective measure of closed session. The
15 requirements of Rule 75(I) and (J) of the rules are therefore fulfilled.
16 Having considered the threats received by witness JF-035
17 following his testimony in the other case before this Tribunal, the
18 Chamber finds that the protective measures granted at that time were
19 insufficient and that the only effective way to protect his identity is
20 to hear his testimony in closed session.
21 For the foregoing reasons, pursuant to Rule 75 of the Rules, the
22 Chamber grants the Prosecution's motion and orders that witness JF-035
23 give his testimony in closed session. And this concludes the Chamber's
25 We turn into closed session.
1 [Closed session]
11 Pages 5385-5423 redacted. Closed session.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you would -- yes. Thank you, we
21 are back in open session.
22 I understand there was something you would like to put on the
23 record, please do to.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to make a
25 correction for the record. Exhibit P490 is 65 ter 5325, while
1 Exhibit P491 is 65 ter 5324. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this correction. We adjourn for the
3 day, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday the 27th of May, quarter past 2.00
4 in Courtroom II.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the day of 27th day
7 of May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.