Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5684

 1                           Tuesday, 15 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2:20 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 6     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-03-69-T.  The

 7     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, I was just about to ask you to

 9     call the case, but that's done already.  I have a few procedural matters

10     and I was informed that there may be some procedural matters raised by

11     the parties as well.  Let's see to what extent the one covers the other.

12             First of all, the Chamber has received a medical report today by

13     Dr. Eekhof.  The Chamber is pleased to hear, Mr. Stanisic, that compared

14     to last week, you at least feel considerably better.  That's on the

15     record.

16             The second item -- for the next item we have to move into private

17     session.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I would like to raise an issue about

19     the medical situation.  I don't know if it's a convenient time.  I can

20     wait, it's of no consequence to the Defence if we wait.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we first go through the matters I have on my

22     list then you have an opportunity.  Mr. Registrar.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

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Page 5685











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Page 5690

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  I would like to inform

16     the parties that the week of the 16th to the 20th of August will be a

17     non-sitting week in this case.  So that's the first week after the recess

18     which we will not sit in that week.

19             I put the following on the record:  The Prosecution has sought to

20     have proposed 65 ter 5183 which is an article of a medical journal to be

21     added to the 65 ter list.  On the 9th of June, 2010, the OTP has

22     informally communicated to the Chamber that it withdraws the request to

23     seek addition to the 65 ter list for this medical journal article, as I

24     said, proposed 65 ter number 5183.

25             Last matter that I would like to put on the record is that on the

Page 5691

 1     9th of June of 2010, the Chamber has informally granted Dr. de Man's

 2     request to submit his next report later this month.  He had asked for

 3     some delay.  These were the matters I had on my agenda.

 4             Mr. Jordash, there was a matter you would like to raise.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  It's in relation to

 6     Mr. Stanisic's illness but specifically in relation to a matter which is

 7     before Your Honours which is the matter of whether the Defence ought to

 8     be given access to Mr. Stanisic's medical records.  And I apologise if

 9     it's trampling on matters which are probably before Your Honours but we

10     would ask in the -- we would ask a decision if at all possible be made as

11     soon as possible, and if I may just outline quickly why that is.  Number

12     one, Mr. Stanisic has, to a large degree, come into conflict with his

13     treating doctor, Dr. Falke, and to a large extent has lost confidence in

14     what Dr. Falke does for Mr. Stanisic.  In our submission that is not

15     unusual.  It's not unusual that a patient falls out with his doctor.

16     What is unusual in this situation is that Mr. Stanisic can do nothing

17     really about that because his legal representatives do not have access to

18     his medical records and cannot advocate on his behalf concerning the

19     treatment.  In an ordinary situation with an accused who is not

20     incarcerated, he could change doctors or he could give his medical

21     records to whoever he sought to have advocate on his behalf, in this

22     situation, Mr. Stanisic is without any recourse because it is he himself

23     doesn't have his medical records and neither do we.

24             And secondly, in relation to this issue, we in the Defence would

25     like to have those medical records because we feel hampered in making

Page 5692

 1     decisions about what work we can do with Mr. Stanisic in the Defence

 2     centre.  Last week was a good example of that.  Whilst Your Honours may

 3     take the view we could go through our MO, that, in our submission, is in

 4     a situation like what arose last week, not a very effective way of us

 5     being able to do our job.  We would have to put questions to the RMO

 6     through the Trial Chamber, the Prosecution would have an opportunity to

 7     respond and so on and so forth.  We would like to see the medical records

 8     that we can make decisions on a day-to-day as to what we can and cannot

 9     do with Mr. Stanisic in the detention centre.  I apologise again for

10     raising the issue because it is before Your Honours but nonetheless we

11     are in a difficult situation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there are, I think, several aspects of this

13     matter.  The first is the patient/doctor relationship and access to

14     medical information.  That is one.  Primary responsibility for the

15     medical care is in the hands of the Registry.

16             And the second issue is reporting to the Chamber which is not

17     without reason, not done by the treating physician but by reporting

18     medical officers, we have separated that for good purposes, I would say.

19     That's the second issue.

20             Have you taken up the matter with the Registrar?

21             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour, no, because there is some

22     confusion, and I had a lengthy discussion with our team about this.  With

23     the matter going before Your Honours in the Registry submission of the

24     14th of December of 2009 and our response on the 18th of December, 2009,

25     we thought on one view it was a matter now before Your Honours.  On the

Page 5693

 1     other hand, we recognize that the Registry might be a suitable avenue to

 2     go down.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'll now have to review that.  I hope you'll

 4     forgive me, perhaps that's different than my colleagues that I have not a

 5     recollection -- a reliable recollection at this moment on exactly what we

 6     said in December 2009.  We'll further look into the matter, Mr. Jordash.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Anything else?  There is one matter which is related

 9     to the next witness to be called and that is recently filed 92 ter

10     motion.  We have not received responses yet which doesn't come as a

11     surprise because the motion was filed rather late.  Are there any

12     observations by the Defence.  Mr. Petrovic?

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We did not

14     submit our written response.  However, given that we are expecting the

15     witness to enter by your leave, we wanted to put our position to you

16     concerning the requested modality of taking this testimony.  I believe

17     this may be the best moment to do so.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Simatovic Defence

20     objects to the request for this witness to testify under Rule 92 ter.

21     First of all, concerning the request itself made by the Prosecutor, this

22     witness figures as a -- has been known as a viva voce witness, if not a

23     few years.  Only a few days back it was requested that his type of

24     testimony be changed.  It was not explained why, only certain general

25     explanations were given and some limited legal argumentation.  Other than

Page 5694

 1     that, no reasons were provided why the Prosecutor after so much time

 2     wished for this type of testimony to be changed.  (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

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 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 5706

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 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Ms. Marcus, in order to

 5     not lose time, would you pay especially attention to avoiding repetitious

 6     evidence which is already in the statement or in the transcript.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness JF-048.  Can you hear me in

10     a language you understand?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

13     Evidence require that you make solemn declaration the text of which is

14     now handed out to you by the usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn

15     declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Witness JF-048.

19     Witness, we will call you JF-048 because protective measures are in

20     place.  The public will not see your face and will not use your name,

21     although your testimony will be for to some extent in public and only

22     where the evidence would be at risk to reveal your identity, the parties

23     will ask for private session.  You will first now be examined by

24     Ms. Marcus, Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution, and you find her

25     to your right.  Ms. Marcus, please proceed.

Page 5707

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           WITNESS:  JF-048

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, JF-048.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the Court Officer please to call up 65

 8     ter 5362, which is the witness's pseudonym sheet, but not to broadcast

 9     it.

10        Q.   I ask you please to take a look at what we see on the screen in

11     front of us.  Where it says "witness name," is that your name?

12        A.   Yes, that's my name.

13        Q.   Directing your attention to where it says "date of birth," is

14     that your date of birth?

15        A.   Yes, that's my date of birth.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Could we kindly go into private session.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

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Page 5708

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12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, with your leave I would like to tender

16     this pseudonym sheet in to evidence under seal, please, that's 65 ter

17     number 5362.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number will be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The number will be Exhibit P522, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P522 is admitted into evidence under seal.  Please

21     proceed.

22             MS. MARCUS:

23        Q.   JF-048, do you recall giving a statement in this case on the 5th

24     and 6th of May of the year 2000?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 5709

 1        Q.   And do you recall testifying in the Milosevic case?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Could I request private session, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 5710

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 2             MS. MARCUS:

 3        Q.   JF-048, prior to coming to testify today did you have an

 4     opportunity to review the prior evidence you gave?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   You made a few corrections to your prior statement in proofing

 7     and I'd like to show you the proofing note which resulted.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 5343.

 9     This is the proofing note, but please not to broadcast it.  It is dated

10     13th of June, 2010.

11        Q.   JF-048, is this document the product of the corrections you made

12     during our preparations for your testimony today?

13        A.   Could we please zoom in.  I'm unable to read it.  Thank you.

14     Yes, these are the corrections.

15        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this proofing note prior to

16     signing it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, having reviewed your prior evidence including this proofing

19     note, now apart from the corrections you made in this proofing note, is

20     there anything else you would like to change?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   If you were to be asked the same questions today as you were

23     asked when you gave your prior evidence, would you provide the same

24     answers in substance?

25        A.   In essence I would.  It's been a long time since these events and

Page 5711

 1     perhaps I wouldn't use the very same words, but the gist of my statement

 2     is the same.

 3        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

 4     accuracy and truthfulness of your prior evidence including the proofing

 5     note?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 8     65 ter 5346, 65 ter 5347, and 65 ter 5343 into evidence under seal.  All

 9     three of them under seal.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you please assign numbers.

11     5346 and 5347 should be MFI'd.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 5346 will be P523

13     marked for identification.  65 ter 5347 will be P524 marked for

14     identification.  And 65 ter 5343 will be P525, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The last one, the proofing note does not refer

16     in any way to Kosovo, so, therefore, could we not yet already admit into

17     evidence 5343.  Although if the others are not admitted or at least if

18     not major portions are admitted, it would lose its meaning.  5343 is

19     admitted into evidence under seal.  And the MFI'd documents should be

20     under seal as well.

21             Please proceed.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, at this time I would also tender the

23     nine related exhibits.  With your leave, I'll just read the 65 ter

24     numbers into the record, if that's how Your Honours wish to proceed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, is it 65 ter 5348 up to and including 5355?

Page 5712

 1             MS. MARCUS:  With respect, Your Honours, it's up to 5356.  This

 2     was due to the -- their being out of order in the ERN range, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Yes, I see that the last two are not in

 4     range.  So, therefore, it's 5348 up to and including 5356.  Any

 5     objections?  (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The 65 ter number 5348 up until 5346, Your

10     Honours, will be Exhibit P526 till Exhibit P534, Your Honours.  All under

11     seal.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P526 up to and including P534 are admitted into

13     evidence under seal.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I place on the record

17     now that the page reference that Your Honours queried before should be

18     14668 instead of 14688.  I do apologise sincerely for the typographical

19     error.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  Please proceed.

21             MS. MARCUS:

22        Q.   Pursuant to the Trial Chamber's instructions on the 18th of

23     February, 2010, I will now read out a public summary of your evidence.

24     This summary does not constitute evidence in this case.  It is for the

25     purpose of informing the public of the general nature of the evidence you

Page 5713

 1     have been called to present.  To allay any concerns you may have about

 2     your security, this public summary will not contain any identifying

 3     information.

 4             JF-048 joined the group of the Serbian MUP known as the JATD or

 5     Red Berets in 1995.  Over the course of the following year, he was sent

 6     to various Red Beret JATD camps.  During his time at these sites and

 7     through his membership in the Red Berets under the Serbian DB, he became

 8     familiar with the structure of command within the Red Berets under the

 9     state security.

10             He was present at a ceremony opening one of the camps in which

11     both accused Stanisic and Simatovic were present.  While at one of the

12     training camps he was sent to, the witness became aware of the supplying

13     of groups operating in the area.  These other groups included Arkan's Men

14     with both Arkan and Legija personally visiting the camp to obtain

15     supplies and Boca's detachment who drove jeeps with scorpions on the

16     sides who also came to this training camp to obtain supplies and

17     ammunition.  In addition, the witness saw the accuse Simatovic arrive at

18     one of the camps, more than one of the camps, correction, in a helicopter

19     in order to test new weapons.  The witness will testify to the command

20     structure in the camps and in his unit.  JF-048 will identify his

21     instructors, many of whom moved with the unit from one training camp to

22     another along with the witness.  At another camp the witness discovered

23     about 30 prisoners who had had their sentences reduced for joining the

24     war front.

25             These prisoners acted like reservists to the Red Berets.  JF-048

Page 5714

 1     was present when the accused Simatovic stated that the witness's unit had

 2     to do whatever that was asked of them and also heard Simatovic make other

 3     statements as well.  JF-048 will testify that unlike other branches of

 4     the state security service that had an official hierarchical

 5     organisational structure according to the MUP regulations, it was his

 6     perception that the Red Berets did not operate according to the official

 7     MUP DB rules.  His perception was that his unit of the Red Berets

 8     reported directly through Dragoslav Krsmanovic to Franko Simatovic who

 9     JF-048 understood to be reporting to Stanisic and/or to Milosevic.

10             That ends the public summary.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

13        Q.   JF-048, can you explain why you chose to join the unit?

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Page 5715

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 8        Q.   From your perspective, JF-048, when you joined the unit, what was

 9     your understanding of what unit you were joining?

10        A.   At that time the only thing I knew was what we had been told and

11     that is that it was a special unit of the state security sector.  We were

12     also told that we were to undergo very rigorous training and that the

13     background checks to join the unit were very stringent.  A sentence

14     remains as to my memory, it went something along the lines, it is very

15     difficult to join this unit but it is even more difficult to leave it.

16        Q.   At the time you joined, did you know this unit to be the Red

17     Berets?

18        A.   Specifically none of the instructors or the persons who appeared

19     at location number 1 at that time did say we were the Red Berets.  They

20     did wear red berets, however.  Of course, there were also rumours going

21     around at location 1 that they were from the Red Berets.  However,

22     officially it was a special unit of the public security sector, of the

23     state security sector, interpreter's correction, and this is what we were

24     told.

25             MS. MARCUS:  For the record I'm seeking clarification and

Page 5716

 1     elaboration of the witness's comments on pages 4 and 5 of his statement.

 2        Q.   One more question on this, JF-048.  At this time that you joined,

 3     did you know that unit that you joined to be the JATD?

 4        A.   As far as I can remember, I can only say with certainty that it

 5     was a special unit of the state security sector.  As for the acronym

 6     JATD, figured only later, at least that's how I remember it.

 7        Q.   When you say later, can you tell us either a time-period or

 8     perhaps a location where you first came to understand that the group was

 9     the JATD?

10        A.   What I can remember specifically is that when our superiors told

11     us that officially as of that day we were the anti-terrorist operations

12     unit of the state security sector, and the official recognition took

13     place a few months after that at location 5.

14             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I'm conscious of the time.  If Your

15     Honours are sticking to the original schedule, this might be a good

16     pausing point.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll have a break and we'll resume at five

18     minutes past 4.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   JF-048, as you are aware, your prior statement and testimony are

24     now before the Chamber, so the questions I'm asking you are just

25     follow-ups and clarifications on some of your prior evidence.

Page 5717

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Could I ask the Court Officer please to call up

 2     P528.  This is one of the related exhibits that was admitted.  It was 65

 3     ter 5350.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, since they are all under seal, they should not

 5     be shown to the public.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   JF-048, this document is already in evidence.  I just want to ask

 8     you one question about it.  I note that on this document there is no

 9     mention of the JATD.  Do you have any idea why?

10        A.   My opinion is that the JATD is not being referred to in this

11     document because we were from the very beginning told very clearly that

12     the unit was of an extremely secretive character and that we were

13     strictly forbidden to discuss the operations of the unit and the very

14     existence of that very unit.  And this decision explains that I was to be

15     employed by the state security sector, and that was the only thing that

16     was required to be contained in that decision.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have an English text for those who are

18     watching the English versions.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, may I continue?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

22        Q.   In your statement you say that the Red Berets were a kind of

23     paramilitary branch of the DB.  You talk about this a few times in your

24     statement on pages 4 and 5.  Can you explain what you meant when you said

25     that?

Page 5718

 1        A.   First and foremost, I graduated at location 1.  I was in company

 2     of trainers, instructors, professors and taught by them.  However, during

 3     those three years of education at location 1, there have never been

 4     actions by instructors or management personnel the likes of which

 5     occurred within the unit, and this first alerted me and my doubts.  Later

 6     on at location 2, we were paid in cash for awhile without signing any

 7     chits as would be customary by regular employees of the Ministry of the

 8     Interior either to their bank accounts or on the basis of a form with an

 9     official seal of the ministry.  We were paid in cash and this caused

10     doubts among my colleagues and me, and we were looking at each other

11     saying what is this, what is going on.

12        Q.   Can you explain a little more why, what kinds of doubts this

13     caused being paid in cash, and maybe you could explain a little bit

14     further as to what that made you doubt?

15        A.   Well, when we came to location 2, several months intervened

16     before we received official decisions on our employment with the Ministry

17     of the Interior.  We were official graduates from the secondary school at

18     location 1.  I don't want to mention any names.  And my peers expected

19     when being employed by the state organ that the first thing would be the

20     written decision on employment and other supporting documents that were

21     supposed to be produced pursuant to administrative roles.  But nothing of

22     sort materialised and this is what brought about our doubts.

23             For instance, one of my school colleagues, several days after

24     joining the unit, started doubting and he said I want to leave this

25     outfit and he left the unit within a few days.  There were some other

Page 5719

 1     cases later on which I can explain further if necessary.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Could we go into private session, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

23             MS. MARCUS:

24        Q.   Did any of your commanders ever say anything which suggested to

25     you that you were part of a secret unit as you've described to us?

Page 5720

 1        A.   Not once.  My instructors kept on emphasising that we were not

 2     supposed to talk about the unit at home without -- to our friends,

 3     family, what we were doing, where we were at, and it has been emphasised

 4     on numerous occasions that this unit was a very secretive, extremely

 5     secretive character.

 6        Q.   I'd like to ask you a clarification of something you just said

 7     above.  That's at our temporary transcript page 34, line 19.  You said:

 8     "However, during those three years of education at location 1, there have

 9     never been actions by instructors or management personnel, the likes of

10     which occurred within the unit."

11             Could you explain what you meant when you said that?

12        A.   Specifically what I meant by this is this:  No instructions or

13     professors at location 1 stated, I'm trying to quote their words, one of

14     commanders at one occasion said, If any of you does not do as told by me,

15     I can kill that person at this moment and to write on his grave he

16     bravely gave his life to the fatherland.  And this prompted me and my

17     colleagues to doubt and to be afraid, sort of.

18        Q.   You feel comfortable telling us the name of who said that in open

19     session, or would you prefer in private session?

20        A.   I would prefer for that to be in private session.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5721

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             MS. MARCUS:

25        Q.   JF-048, can you describe the supply warehouse at location 2.

Page 5722

 1     What kinds of supplies were there?

 2        A.   The warehouse itself was located close to the entrance to the

 3     camp.  The warehouse was a low building connected with the dining room,

 4     meaning the kitchen and the dining room, the mess room.  When we first

 5     arrived at location 2, we were issued with everything that we needed for

 6     the training; weapons, the uniforms.  And at the back of the warehouse,

 7     if I remember correctly, there was a section for storing food.  In the

 8     rest of the warehouse was stockpiled were ammunition, uniforms, and all

 9     other supplies that we needed for training.

10        Q.   How would you compare the kinds of supplies which were kept and

11     distributed at location 2 with those at the other locations?

12        A.   What was interesting is that supplies, if we can call them that,

13     at location 4 and those at location 2 -- well, location 2 supplies were

14     of a character corresponded to the current needs of the unit.  As I said,

15     uniforms, food, ammunition, weapons.  Whereas at location 4, in certain

16     facilities, there were everything, to put it simply.  Everything was

17     warehoused there.

18        Q.   I'm going to return that in just a few minutes when we talk about

19     location 4.  Now during your time - we are still talking about location 2

20     - did you come to know the connection or relationship, if any, between

21     Arkan's Men and the DB?

22        A.   The only thing that I can state in respect of the relationship

23     between Red Berets or the JATD and Arkan's Tigers and later on the Boca

24     unit, is that on two occasions I saw members of Arkan's Tigers coming to

25     location 2 to fetch supplies.  I specifically saw them stacking green

Page 5723

 1     coloured crates, military crates, as I presumed because I wasn't close

 2     enough to see accurately what was in them, but those were military type

 3     crates for ammunition or hand-grenades.

 4             On another occasion, two or three members -- I'm sorry, I don't

 5     know exactly how many.  Those were from the Boca unit coming there.

 6        Q.   I'll ask you about Boca's unit in just a moment.  Staying with

 7     Arkan's Tigers, what was your understanding of how it was that Arkan's

 8     Tigers could obtain supplies from the DB camp?

 9        A.   How was that possible is not something I could divine from my

10     position, neither did I try to divine that.  It was a public secret, so

11     to speak, that Arkan's Tigers were no official unit of the Ministry of

12     the Interior, whereas, it was known in respect of us that we were members

13     of a special unit of the state security sector.  How those two units were

14     connected is not something I can explain.  I can just state what I saw at

15     location 2.

16        Q.   Now, returning to what you said about Boca's detachment.  You

17     talk about this on page 10 in your statement.  Can you provide any

18     greater detail as to what kind of supplies Boca's detachment obtained

19     from the warehouse at location 2 to your knowledge?

20        A.   As far as I know on both occasions in the case when I saw Arkan's

21     Tigers members and members of the Boca detachment, in both cases those

22     crates were green, military-type crates, which most probably contained

23     ammunition or hand-grenades.  Military equipment or military supplies at

24     any rate.

25        Q.   Do you recall approximately when it was that you saw Boca's

Page 5724

 1     detachment?  The month is fine.

 2        A.   To the best of my recollection that could only have been in

 3     either July or August 1995.  I think there's more of a chance that it was

 4     actually July, at least that's what I can remember now because it's been

 5     a long time ago.

 6        Q.   At the time did you know who Boca's detachment was?

 7        A.   I had no information about what sort of a detachment it was.  I

 8     could only see what I did see, and this was news to me.  One of my

 9     presumptions was that it was one of the, well, let's call them special

10     units, but I had never heard or known of this unit before.  That's all.

11        Q.   Now, moving on to location 3.  At location 3 did you have the

12     same instructors as you had at location 2?

13        A.   Most of them were the same, plus there may have been a couple of

14     new instructors.  What I knew at the time was that they came from another

15     unit.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Can we go into private session, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5725

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22             MS. MARCUS:

23        Q.   JF-048, how would you compare the kinds of supplies which were

24     kept and distributed at location 3 with the other locations?

25        A.   In essence at location 3, this was a ready-made or a makeshift

Page 5726

 1     camp.  There were no solid buildings there.  Mostly they were tents.  At

 2     location 3 in addition to the tents where we slept there was another tent

 3     with a smaller number of ammunition crates and a small amount of food, 99

 4     per cent of which was canned food.

 5        Q.   Did you see Franko Simatovic at location 3?

 6        A.   At location 3, I never saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic there.

 7        Q.   Now, moving on to location 4, were there any other groups present

 8     at location 4 apart from your group?

 9        A.   As for location 4, when I just arrived there, there was the

10     Poskok unit.  As far as I remember, my unit and the Poskok unit merged

11     around that time.  They also used the location number 4.

12        Q.   What did you do during your time at location 4?

13        A.   On both tours at location 4 as far as I remember -- well, that

14     location did not offer such possibilities as locations 2 or even more

15     location 5.  What should I call it?  It was a temporary holding area of

16     sorts to move on to another, say, X location.

17        Q.   I just want to clarify, the question I asked you was in relation

18     to location 4.  I just want to be sure that that was your answer for

19     location 4.  It can be a little bit confusing since we are not using the

20     names of the places.  My question was what you did during your time at

21     location 4?

22        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, it is a bit confusing with the

23     numbers.  But as I've said already, I may have omitted to say that at

24     location 4 one could, and we did, undertake only basic physical training.

25     We had sufficient space for that.  These included morning warmup,

Page 5727

 1     exercises in the field in front of the main building, but such training

 2     as there was at locations 1, 3, and 5 is something we did not do at

 3     location 4.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you just a few more questions about

 5     location 4 since you didn't elaborate as much in your statement on that

 6     location.  Could you compare the kinds of supplies which were kept and

 7     distributed at location 4 with other locations.  You stated to tell us

 8     about it a little bit earlier, perhaps you can elaborate on that.

 9        A.   Yes, there was something specific concerning location 4 and I saw

10     this myself, and it was absent in all other locations, was that close to

11     the main building where the unit was, as far as I recall, there were

12     three or four large hangars.  Well, I won't enumerate everything, but

13     there were enormous quantities of foreign produced cigarettes to

14     luxurious foreign cars.  I even saw an American ambulance in one of the

15     hangars and on location 4 I even saw foreign combat vehicles.  I remember

16     clearly there was a French combat vehicle there in addition to a few

17     others.

18        Q.   What uniforms did you wear during your time in training at

19     location 4?

20        A.   As far as I recall we wore NATO uniforms.  That is to say

21     camouflage uniforms with the pattern resembling NATO uniforms.

22        Q.   And what insignias, if any, did you wear at location 4?

23        A.   As far as I recall, we had the Red Berets with the wolf emblem or

24     patch, and as far as I recall it wasn't desirable to sport any kind of

25     insignia on the uniform itself.  If I'm not mistaken, we did not have any

Page 5728

 1     insignia on the uniforms.

 2        Q.   Do you recall what insignias were worn by your instructors at

 3     location 4?

 4        A.   I'm sorry, I can't remember that.

 5        Q.   Do you recall any insignias worn by your commanders at location

 6     4?

 7        A.   Unfortunately I really cannot recall that.  Anything I might say

 8     would be speculation.  I don't want to tell you anything I cannot

 9     remember with certainty.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Could we have private session, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5729

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MS. MARCUS:

 5        Q.   I'm going to turn now to location 5.  How would you compare the

 6     kinds of supplies which were kept and distributed at location 5 with the

 7     other locations?

 8        A.   The supplies at location 5 in essence -- well, there is one way

 9     to compare the locations.  It is my conclusion that the other locations

10     save for locations 1 and 5 were temporary locations.  Whereas location 5

11     following my arrival there -- well, we were told that it was to be our

12     permanent location.  Of course, the supplies at that location especially

13     in terms of food and conditions were far better than at other locations.

14        Q.   Were there any other groups present at location 5 apart from your

15     group?

16        A.   No.  As I've stated already, it was around that time as far as I

17     remember, our unit, the JATD, merged, or rather, took in members of the

18     Poskok unit of the Krajina.  If you had in mind such units which I was

19     able to observe at location 2, then I can tell you that they were not

20     present at location 5.

21        Q.   What did you do during your time at location 5?

22        A.   At location 5 as in the case of locations 1 and 3, we underwent

23     physical and combat training plus theory, plus martial arts training

24     because the conditions were far better.  We also had our regular duties

25     befalling any member of the unit at my level, i.e., standing guard, being

Page 5730

 1     on duty during the night and day.

 2        Q.   Now, we've been through the five locations, four of which were --

 3     have been camps that you are talking about.  Can you compare for us what

 4     you knew about the JATD, the Red Berets, the group you had joined, what

 5     you knew at location 2 with what your understanding and perception was by

 6     the time you reached location 5?

 7        A.   I apologise, I did not understand exactly.  What location did you

 8     refer to, was it location 2?

 9        Q.   Yes, I'm trying to compare what your perception was of the unit

10     from the beginning, from the first location which is location 2 being the

11     first camp, comparing that with what your perception was of the unit at

12     location 5.  Some time had passed, these locations go chronologically, so

13     I'm trying to understand if your perception had changed in any way, and

14     if so, in what way did your perception and understanding change?

15        A.   Of course it changed drastically.  Following location 2 and up to

16     location 5, the simplest explanation or an answer to your question would

17     be this:  While I was at location 2, I did understand that it was a

18     special unit, that we were to undergo rigorous training, and that

19     discipline was required.  This is something that applied to all the

20     locations.  But having graduated to location 5 with time I came to

21     realize that that location was an official location for a respectable

22     unit.  That's at least my opinion, my view of things.

23             For example, at location 2 as well as at location 3, there were a

24     few cases, which in my view having learned what I did at location 1,

25     would have otherwise been impermissible within the MUP.  At location 5,

Page 5731

 1     however, at least to my knowledge, such things did not happen.

 2        Q.   Was there any kind of psychological training which you underwent

 3     at any time in any of these locations?

 4        A.   In my view we were exposed to some sort of psychological training

 5     on a daily basis, starting with the very banal fact such as hearing your

 6     instructor say every day that he was both your mother and father at the

 7     same time and everything that matters to you in the whole world up to

 8     certain types of training and types of punishment even.  In my view, we

 9     were exposed to daily psychological training of some sort.  The gist of

10     that type of training, in my view, was to realise the importance of the

11     unit, the importance of secrecy within that unit, and the importance of

12     obeying what one is told under any circumstances.  We were not to ponder

13     on the rights and wrongs of something.  We would simply hear instructors

14     say, this is it, and that's your whole story.

15        Q.   Did you have any kind of oath or pledge which you took as part of

16     the JATD Red Berets?

17        A.   In terms of an official oath such as an oath that would be taken

18     before a court, that did not exist.  However, there was an oath well

19     known amongst us.  I cannot recall the exact words now, but it boils down

20     to -- well, I'm explaining the meaning of it.  It boiled down to if you

21     were ever left alone in the field during an operation, take great care

22     not to fall into enemy hands alive.  You put a bull let through your

23     brain, but do not allow yourself to be taken alive.  I think that would

24     be the right answer to your question.

25        Q.   I'm going to ask our Case Manager to play a clip from the unit

Page 5732

 1     video, part 2.  It's been uploaded at 65 ter 2609.3.  It corresponds to

 2     the full video which is 2609 at 42 minutes, 57 seconds to 43 minutes 35

 3     seconds.  I'd like to just note that when this was reviewed it turned out

 4     that the transcript did not have this particular portion in it.  We

 5     noticed that in the English.  We immediately submitted it for

 6     translation, and now we are going to upload the full English translation

 7     for the full transcript.  In the meantime, the transcript will run

 8     underneath it as we play it, and the booth has been given the

 9     translation.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "One day when you find yourself

12     alone in the battle-field."

13             Interpreter's note:  We cannot make out the text, we can merely

14     follow the subtitles.

15             [Voiceover] And the enemy women, children, and dogs came to tear

16     you to pieces, shoot a bullet through your head and die a hero."

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, apparently the sound was such that the

18     interpreters could not translate from the original words spoken.  If

19     there's any challenge to what is said and whether it's accurately

20     translated, then I'm primarily addressing native speaking persons or

21     those who have access to native speaking persons.  Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the sound was very

23     bad and in Serbian I basically understood nothing.  Therefore, I have

24     full understanding for the interpreters.  One simply cannot make anything

25     out.

Page 5733

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the question remains whether this is -- what

 2     the probative value is.  Apparently someone once thought that he could

 3     hear what was said.  I would suggest that if there are any -- even if a

 4     repeated effort is made, if there's still no possibility to hear what was

 5     said in the original language, then of course, we'd have to consider

 6     that.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'd just like to note, during

 8     preparation the witness told me what the oath was and then upon watching

 9     this later, he started reciting it while it was going on.  So this is the

10     reason for showing it now.  The witness can certainly comment on it.  He

11     could even sing it along with the participants if Your Honours prefer so

12     that the words can be translated by the interpreters simultaneously.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether he would then -- if you can't hear

14     what is said in the original language then it may be difficult to

15     conclude that the witness is using the same words as the words which

16     could not be heard, but he suggests are used.  I would, as a matter of

17     fact -- I would suggest that the parties try again to see whether -- or

18     to hear whether they can come to a similar conclusion as the Prosecution.

19     If not, then I'd like to hear from the Defence, and we could ask perhaps

20     others to advise us on the matter.

21             Now, whatever is said, whether they say anything or not, it's

22     what the witness apparently testified.  So even without the video, that

23     testimony stands, and I do understand you well that he first spoke those

24     words when being interviewed himself and only after that you had showed

25     him the video.  The one question remains, had you seen this video before,

Page 5734

 1     Witness JF-048?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had seen this footage before.

 3     However, I want to say that I saw this oath in written form for the first

 4     time at location 2.  It was in a notepad belonging to one of my

 5     instructors.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, when you watched this video, did you listen to

 7     the original language?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you recognise the words spoken or almost

10     shouted to be the same words as you learned to be the kind of pledge or

11     what you earlier told us?  Were you able to understand what they said or

12     what they shouted?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, especially in the part of the

14     video where the unit members take the oath just before lunch.  The second

15     part where the oath is spoken by I believe what are Arkan's Tigers, this

16     is something I saw for the first time on TV.  However, the other part of

17     the footage showing members of my former unit just before lunch, that is

18     something I am familiar with.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you did hear them use the words you know as

20     what we call the -- well, it's not a real oath, but at least the pledge,

21     shoot yourself rather than to fall into the hands of the enemy?  Could

22     you recognise the words?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you now remember the precise text?  Could you

25     speak it, could you tell us aloud what the exact wording is, if you

Page 5735

 1     remember?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day when you are left wounded

 5     in the battle-field and enemy women, children, and dogs arrive -- I

 6     apologise, this is a bit stressful for me.  So enemy, women, children,

 7     and dogs arrive to tear you apart, put a bullet through your head and die

 8     a hero.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

10             MS. MARCUS:

11        Q.   JF-048, the video we have just seen, was this members of your

12     unit or members of Arkan's Tigers?

13        A.   No, the people in black uniforms, at least during the period I

14     was with the unit, did not exist in that unit.  These were Arkan's

15     Tigers.  In the other portion of the footage where you can see guys in

16     NATO uniforms, these would be members of my unit.  Or rather, of the unit

17     I was a member of.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, what I would propose with your leave

19     is to mark this clip for identification and then to submit it for, I

20     guess, an official translation.  Maybe the experts in the Registry who do

21     the translation will be able to determine whether it's audible or

22     inaudible.  We note that there was no notation in the transcript saying

23     words inaudible which usually does appear in an official translation and

24     then perhaps we can tender it into evidence at that stage.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash or Mr. Petrovic, any comment on this

Page 5736

 1     suggestion by Ms. Marcus to have it marked for identification so that

 2     everyone can give it another try to see whether they can identify the

 3     words spoken or used?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that's -- could I just seek clarification.

 5     This seems to be a new element to the Prosecution case.  Is it their case

 6     that this is a pledge taken by everybody who joined the Serbian DB's Red

 7     Beret unit?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully endorse this

10     approach.  However, some words are intelligible but it is not clear

11     whether those both groups that could be seen are uttering those words or

12     not.  This could not be concluded from the video footage, and what is

13     unclear also is how this was edited and who compiled the whole video

14     footage that we saw.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, could you tell us of which portion you

16     understood what words so that we can better focus.  The black uniforms or

17     the ones sitting at the table, which ones were you able to --

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to be frank,

19     I cannot pinpoint which words I could understand.  I would have to redo

20     it and listen to it very carefully to inform you.  I can do it later in

21     the day or tomorrow and let you know.  I had an impression that the

22     people are not mouthing in sync with the audio because what we could see

23     were two groups of people saying something, and the audio seemed to be

24     one.  I could understand a word or two out of the whole melee, the sound

25     was very poor, but if we were to hear it in better audio conditions,

Page 5737

 1     maybe we could understand more.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's appreciated that you want to give it

 3     another try.  Could you already tell us what words you thought you had

 4     understood?  The word or two.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] For instance, Your Honour, I think

 6     I understood women and children, but if you give me some time, I will

 7     seriously deal with it, otherwise it would be hardly of any assistance if

 8     I were to try to explain which words.  I did, however, understand some

 9     words.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic, the reason why I asked you this

11     is, and of course, as I said before, we appreciate that you want to give

12     it another try, if you would have understood words which do not appear in

13     what is now the transcript then of course we might have a more serious

14     problem compared to the situation where the words you just mentioned are

15     at least in the text which we have seen recently.

16             Mr. Registrar, the MFI number for this clip of this video.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  The Exhibit will be P535 marked for

18     identification, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Please proceed,

20     Ms. Marcus.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Witness JF-048, could you tell us --

22             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I don't know if Your Honours ruled against

23     me in terms of seeking clarification on the issue.  It just would be nice

24     to know if that's the Prosecution case before the translation of the

25     video comes out.

Page 5738

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let me -- that is a question.  I understood,

 2     but perhaps I'm wrong, therefore perhaps we just ask the witness, is that

 3     this was a kind of a repeated kind of yell with a special meaning for and

 4     not something to be officially taken at joining the unit.  Is that

 5     correctly understood, Witness JF-048, that you would on a regular basis

 6     now and then yell as a group those words?  Is that right?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right, Your Honour.

 8     Those words or this recital was done by us before taking a meal.  We

 9     never officially took a pledge having such words.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, is what the witness just said, does that

11     fit into the Prosecution's case?

12             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The use of the word "oath" was

13     the terminology that was used by the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Jordash, is that sufficiently clear?

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 5358.

18     I note that this is the first chart that is in the hard copy handouts

19     that we've provided to all the parties and to the Chamber.  5358.  It is

20     a payment list authentication spreadsheet.  Please, may I ask not to

21     broadcast it.  May I ask that the English be shown although there is

22     obviously a B/C/S version.  The witness understands English quite well,

23     and I think it would be more visible to everybody if we could show the

24     English version.  Thank you.

25        Q.   JF-048, in preparation for your testimony in this case, you were

Page 5739

 1     asked to review a number of payment records and provide your comments

 2     upon them.  Did you, in fact, review a number of payment records, the

 3     ones listed in this chart, and did you comment upon them?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Were you given an opportunity to review what was written to

 6     ensure it was accurate according to the information you had provided?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Could I please ask to show the bottom of the page.

 9        Q.   Is this your signature which appears at the bottom of this

10     spreadsheet?

11        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this

13     authentication chart into evidence.  It's 65 ter 5358 under seal.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Mr. Registrar, the number

15     would be?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P536 under seal, Your

17     Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P536 is admitted into evidence under seal.

19             MS. MARCUS:

20        Q.   How would you compare the payments you received with payments you

21     might receive performing the normal job of a police officer?

22        A.   I think that I've already stated, particularly at location number

23     2, the salary was given in cash without any administrative procedures, no

24     chits being signed, no decisions on the level of pay, and to the best of

25     my recollection, that those administrative procedures took place at

Page 5740

 1     location 5, and then from that point onwards, we received our salaries

 2     just as any other officers in an envelope with a letterhead of MUP and

 3     with signing that we had received our salaries.

 4        Q.   How would you compare the quantity that you were paid, the amount

 5     of your salary in the unit with the amount of a salary you would have

 6     received as an ordinary police officer?

 7        A.   Well, our salary in the unit were drastically higher that the

 8     take-home pay of members of public security, I mean policemen.  They were

 9     drastically higher.  And for the conditions of the time in the area of

10     former Yugoslavia, our salaries were quite high.  Our salaries.

11        Q.   Do you recall any occasions when the payments that you received

12     varied in quantity and amount when you received a different amount?

13        A.   I cannot recall the specific amounts to the dinar, but there were

14     occasions once or twice that on top of salary we would receive bonuses or

15     a premium over salary.  We called them premiums.

16        Q.   Can you recall what circumstances led to you receiving a bonus or

17     a premium over your salary?

18        A.   As far as I can remember, there was no particular reason.  But if

19     my memory serves me well, this mostly used to happen after our stay at

20     location 3, for instance.  When we would be at location 3, if I remember

21     correctly, we would receive those premiums.  My conclusion was that those

22     premiums were connected with us being at that location and not at our

23     regular location.  In MUP we used to call them, at least in public

24     security sector, as an allowance for a stay in the field.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 5359,

Page 5741

 1     which is also in the hard copy handouts that have been given to the

 2     parties.  Similar to the previous one this one is in English and B/C/S in

 3     e-court, but if we can show the English so that the witness can confirm

 4     it, that should be good.

 5        Q.   JF-048, in preparation for your testimony in this case, you were

 6     asked to review your own DB personnel file and provide comments upon each

 7     document contained therein.  Did you, in fact, conduct this review of the

 8     documents listed on this chart and did you comment upon them?

 9        A.   I apologise, yes, I did review those documents and I commented on

10     them.  Yes, I did.

11             MS. MARCUS:  Sorry, is it possible to see the English version.

12     Thank you.

13        Q.   Were you given an opportunity to review what was written when you

14     gave your comments to ensure it was accurate according to the information

15     that you had provided?

16        A.   Yes.  This confirms the information contained in the original

17     documents, yes.  Or the documents that I saw written in the Serbian

18     language.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Just to verify, this is not being broadcast, is that

20     correct?  I'm sorry, I didn't ask for it.  Okay.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Is this your signature which appears on the bottom of the page?

22        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

24     authentication chart into evidence.  It is 65 ter 5359 under seal.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Mr. Registrar, the number

Page 5742

 1     would be?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be Exhibit P537 under seal, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P537 is admitted under seal.  Please proceed.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, again I note the time, if Your Honours

 6     would like me to continue I can, or we can take a break.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you still need, Ms. Marcus?

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Well, I guess it depends on the objection, but if

 9     there are no objections very briefly, maybe ten minutes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, of course, I'm not asking the parties whether

11     they will object to any question which is difficult to forecast.  We

12     resumed effectively, at least on this clock, at ten minutes past 5.00.

13     This is the usual time for a break, but I can imagine that the parties

14     would prefer to hear the last ten minutes of examination-in-chief first.

15     I'm also looking at Mr. Stanisic.  We can take a break without any

16     problem, but Mr. Jordash, if you --

17             MR. JORDASH:  I'll just take instructions, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]

20             MR. JORDASH:  May we have a break now, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll have a break now and we will resume at

22     five minutes to 6.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

Page 5743

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Thank, Your Honour.  Could I ask the Court Officer

 2     to please call up 65 ter 5360, not to broadcast it to the public, please.

 3     This is third chart that is in the hard-copy handouts provided to all

 4     present.  I'd like to note for the record that this chart is identified

 5     as 65 ter 1167 which is actually an exhibit marked for identification

 6     that is P395 MFI'd.

 7        Q.   JF-048, in preparation for your testimony today, did you watch

 8     the Skorpions video and comment upon it to the best of your knowledge?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  There's no sound coming from the witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we check whether the witness's microphone is

12     switched on.

13             Could you please repeat your answer.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did watch the video and I

15     provided some comments on it.

16             MS. MARCUS:

17        Q.   Were your comments noted down in the chart we see before us?

18        A.   Yes, these are my comments that I provided after watching the

19     video.

20        Q.   Were you given an opportunity to review what was written to

21     ensure it was accurate according to the information you provided?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  This is exactly what I did once again.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Perhaps we could scroll down to the bottom of the

24     page in the English version.

25        Q.   Is this your signature which appears on the bottom of this chart?

Page 5744

 1        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, at this time I would tender this

 3     spreadsheet into evidence under seal.  It is 65 ter 5360.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of -- yes, Mr. Petrovic.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our objection would

 6     refer to the fact that those -- this video footage dates from June 1995.

 7     I do not recall witness stating that he saw anything of the sort in June

 8     1995.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

10             MS. MARCUS:  On the contrary, the witness testified that he

11     believes that he saw Boca's detachment at location 2 in June or July

12     1995.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seems that he stated July or

14     August, but this is very easily verifiable, if I'm wrong.  But I do

15     believe he has stated July or August.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I apologise, at page 40, lines 20

17     through 23, what the witness said is:

18             "To the best of my recollection that could only have been in

19     either July or August 1995.  I think there's more of a chance that it was

20     actually July.  At least that's what I can remember now, because it's

21     been a long time ago."

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and Mr. Petrovic said that he had not seen

23     anything from June, which is then --

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, yes, if you look at the witness's

25     comments, he is saying this is the type of vehicle, this is the insignia

Page 5745

 1     I saw, and those are the type of crates.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's a different matter which apparently is

 3     not covered.  The comments are of a kind that the witness identifies the

 4     persons he sees and sometimes describes what the functions were and his

 5     comment on, for example, vehicles is not that he saw this at this very

 6     moment, but he is testifying or at least is giving his comments as to his

 7     familiarity with the type of documents.  Mr. Petrovic.  Mr. Jordash, any


 9             MR. JORDASH:  No, thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is overruled.  Mr. Registrar, the

12     number would be?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P538 under seal, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P538 is admitted into evidence under seal.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Could the Court Officer now please call up 65 ter 5361 and again

17     not broadcast it to the public.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, I'm mixed up as a matter of fact in my

19     previous comments, the recognition of persons with -- because that was

20     not what was on our screen.  Yes, I was already going too fast and said

21     that the witness recognised persons, but then I was apparently referring

22     to this series of stills from the Kula camp video.  I apologise for that.

23     Please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   JF-048, in preparation for your testimony today did you watch the

Page 5746

 1     Kula camp video and comment upon it to the best of your knowledge?

 2        A.   Yes, I did watch the video and provided my comments on it.

 3        Q.   Were your comments noted down in the chart we see before us?

 4        A.   Could you please zoom in on the document.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  I think again perhaps if we show the English

 6     version, that would suffice.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, these are my comments.

 8             MS. MARCUS:

 9        Q.   Were you given an opportunity to review what was written to

10     ensure it was accurate according to the information you provided?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Is this your signature we see at the bottom of each page of this

13     chart?

14        A.   Yes, at the bottom of this document is my signature.

15        Q.   I'd like to ask you one clarification.  In the bottom photo that

16     you see on the screen in front of you, at the timing 1 minute 28 seconds,

17     you say this is Zvezdan Jovanovic, aka Zveki.  Can you tell us whether

18     your comment refers to the man on the left or the man on the right?

19        A.   My remark refers to the person on the right-hand side so the

20     first person from the right is him.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, at this time I would tender this

22     spreadsheet into evidence under seal.  It is 65 ter 5361.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P539 under seal, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P539 is admitted under seal.

Page 5747

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   JF-048, I have one final question for you.  On today's transcript

 3     on page 57, lines 5 through 7, I'm going to quote to you what you said

 4     and just ask you for a clarification.  You said:

 5             "I cannot recall the specific amounts to the dinar but there were

 6     occasions once or twice that on top of salary we would receive bonuses or

 7     a premium over salary.  We called them premiums."

 8             Apart from the salary and bonuses once or twice which you

 9     received, did you receive any other payments when you were part of the

10     unit?

11        A.   To the best of my recollection, no.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, at this time I would like to tender

13     the underlying payment records authenticated by the witness.  I can read

14     the numbers into the record or I could provide them as Your Honours

15     please afterwards to the Registrar.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  How many numbers would have to be reserved for that

17     purpose, or is it one number?

18             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.  I will tell you just now.  It's

19     eight numbers, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Eight numbers.  Mr. Registrar, could you already

21     tell us what the numbers would be that you would reserve.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P540 up to Exhibit P547,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is this all for this witness?

25             MS. MARCUS:  Those are the payment records that the witness

Page 5748

 1     authenticated, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  Not.  Then P540 up to and including

 3     P547 are admitted into evidence under seal.  If you would give a table

 4     for the Registrar which exactly are the numbers, the corresponding

 5     numbers and the corresponding descriptions of the documents, if there's

 6     any problem with the description, then I would say by Thursday we would

 7     hear those objections, and if not, we'll accept your description as given

 8     to the Registrar.  Please proceed.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We will do so.  Finally, I

10     would also like to tender from the bar table the DB personnel file for

11     this witness.  It was provisionally assigned 65 ter 5344.  I note that it

12     is not on our 65 ter list, Your Honours, and we received it pursuant to

13     RFA 1691 from BIA.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you receive it?

15             MS. MARCUS:  We received it in September of 2008, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections against?

17             MR. JORDASH:  No, thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then in the absence of any objections,

19     Mr. Registrar, the Exhibit number would be?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P548, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P548 is admitted into evidence under seal.

22     Ms. Marcus.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I'm done with my examination-in-chief.

24     I just have one final comment I'd like to put on the record with your

25     leave.  The Prosecution disputes Mr. Petrovic's submission in relation to

Page 5749

 1     the clip which has now been marked as P535 marked for identification that

 2     this is a voice-over of a clip.  It's for the Trial Chamber -- we submit

 3     that it's for the Trial Chamber to determine to watch it again and make

 4     its determination of whether the Trial Chamber considers it to be a

 5     voice-over, and certainly if the Chamber so requests, the Prosecution is

 6     prepared to conduct a forensic examination to reach a resolution of this

 7     issue.  Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  From what I understood is that -- I understood that

 9     Mr. Petrovic will have a closer look at the document and then I take it

10     that he will include in his review of the video whether there's any

11     voice-over or whether it's -- we hear the voice of at least a voice which

12     corresponds with the lip movements of the person.  We'll hear then

13     further from Mr. Petrovic.

14             My usual question is who is going to cross-examine the witness

15     first.  I noticed that over time the Simatovic Defence has found itself

16     sometimes some trouble at the end in being urged to see whether we could

17     finish the witness, but I leave it to the parties whether the sequence is

18     as often Stanisic first and then Simatovic.

19             MR. JORDASH:  It is us again, but we do discuss it with our

20     learned friends and make our decisions accordingly.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and, Witness JF-048, you'll now be

22     cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

23     Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

Page 5750

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Whilst you were at location 1 did you commit -- you personally

 4     commit any crimes?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Same question location 2, did you commit any crimes at location

 7     2?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Location 3, did you personally commit any crimes?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Location 4, same question, please.

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And location 5, did you commit any crimes?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   In location 2 did your unit commit any crimes whilst you were

16     there?

17        A.   To the best of my knowledge, no.

18        Q.   Same question location 3, did your unit commit any crimes whilst

19     present in that location?

20        A.   The same answer to the best of my knowledge, no.

21        Q.   And would you give the same answer to the same question in

22     relation to location 4, did your unit commit any crimes?

23        A.   The same answer goes to location 4 and location 5, as I say to

24     the best of my knowledge.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And is it right that at none of those locations were

Page 5751

 1     you given any orders to commit any crimes?  Is that correct also?

 2        A.   At no location did I receive any orders that I was supposed to

 3     commit any crime.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can I take you to the beginning of your

 5     evidence.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Could we please go into private session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5752











11 Pages 5752-5754 redacted. Private session.















Page 5755

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Please proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have the English one, please.

13        Q.   Would you have a look at the B/C/S while that's happening,

14     Mr. Witness.

15             MR. JORDASH:  I beg your pardon, I think we've got the wrong --

16     either I misspoke or it was trans -- anyway, it's 4175, and I think we've

17     got 4715 on the screen.  I don't know if I misspoke or what, but I don't

18     suppose it matters.  4175, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, is this what you want to have on the

20     screen?

21             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, it is.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to read that, Mr. Witness?

25        A.   I'm reading it right now.  Are you asking me whether I have seen

Page 5756

 1     it before?

 2        Q.   I'm -- what I'm asking you is whether the Alfa camp that you were

 3     told about is this Alfa camp mentioned in this military document as

 4     opening in June of 1993?  Is that what you are referring to?

 5        A.   I have no information about the establishment of Alfa camp.  I

 6     just heard my instructor referring to that camp, and the camp was

 7     supposedly near Knin.  As for any dates of when it was established or any

 8     other information, well, that's something I don't have.

 9        Q.   Well, perhaps I can leave the subject with this question:  The

10     origin of the unit as far as you understood whilst you were at location 2

11     and afterwards throughout your time with the unit was that it started in

12     a camp called the Alfa camp; is that right?

13        A.   That is what our instructor said when he referred to the unit.

14        Q.   And you never heard anything during your time with the unit which

15     suggested different to that, that it had other origins; is that correct?

16        A.   I never heard any other information.  In essence, what is at hand

17     here is that I heard my immediate superior say that our initial

18     instructors had been trained at the Alfa camp, that's all.

19        Q.   Well, I just want to be clear about this.  Your initial

20     instructors had been trained at the Alfa camp and they were the origins

21     of the unit; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, that is what I recall.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this from the bar table, Your Honours.

25             MS. MARCUS:  No objections.

Page 5757

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be Exhibit D71, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D71 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

 4     Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Could we have, please, back on the

 6     screen, P523.  And can we go to page 6 of the English and the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Could I take you to paragraph 4 of the B/C/S and also page 4 of

 8     the English.  The paragraph I'm interested in is the paragraph where it

 9     says:

10             "A Krajina-based unit known as Poskok also functioned in the RSK

11     as did the Red Berets.  Members of this Poskok unit appear to have been

12     trained at the aforementioned Alfa centre and they were seasoned

13     soldiers."

14             You see that?

15             "Milos Opacic commanded the Poskok unit when I met them in late

16     1995 but members of this unit were eventually absorbed into the Red

17     Berets by 1996."

18             You see that?

19        A.   I can't locate that paragraph, what does it start with?  I'm

20     looking at the Serbian version.

21             MR. JORDASH:  I think it should be page 6 of the Serbian and page

22     6 of the English, please.

23        Q.   Can you see that?

24        A.   Starting with the words "RSK and the Red Berets?"

25        Q.   Yes.  Sorry, not starting with the words RSK but starting with "a

Page 5758

 1     Krajina-based unit known as Poskok..."

 2        A.   I can see the paragraph.

 3        Q.   The Poskok unit, as noted here, you say, were -- let me start

 4     that again.  In what way do you suggest the Poskok unit was absorbed into

 5     the Red Berets by 1996?  Can you explain how this occurred, if you know?

 6        A.   I'll tell you what I remember.  When my part of the unit was at

 7     location 4, the aforementioned unit Poskok arrived.  We shared the same

 8     camp, the same dormitories.  We took meals together and they stayed there

 9     with us for awhile.

10        Q.   But they were operating as a separate unit; is that correct?

11        A.   Specifically they never operated together with us only.  At

12     location 3, two or three of our men came to us and one of them was a

13     personal instructor of mine.  They later on followed us to location 5.

14        Q.   The man Milos Opacic, did he ever join the Red Berets?

15        A.   I remember him specifically from a conversation we had at

16     location 4.  He showed me some pictures.  There was something specific

17     about him in the sense that he liked listening to the Beethoven's 9th

18     when going into action.  And at that moment in time, we shared location 4

19     with him.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Beethoven's 8th.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, however, I

22     cannot recall him being at location 5, but I do recall the other two or

23     three members of that unit.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   Did Milos Opacic join the Red Berets at any time?

Page 5759

 1        A.   I'm not familiar with that, but I do know, as I said already,

 2     that he was in the same camp at location 4 where we were at the same

 3     time.

 4        Q.   And you were at location 4 for how long, with Opacic?

 5        A.   I was at location 4 on two occasions, if I remember it correctly.

 6     He was there when I was at location 4 for the first time.  My part of the

 7     unit spent a bit less than a month there, I believe.

 8        Q.   Let me try to shortcut this.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Can we have on e-court, please, P539.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Can I just ask to make sure it's not broadcast.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, yes.  Can we go to page 2.  Could we also

12     have the B/C/S up on the screen for my client.  Page 2.

13        Q.   And the bit I'm interested in while the B/C/S is coming up is 959

14     where you make the comment:

15             "This is one of the Opacic brothers, he used to be a member of

16     the Poskok unit, but on this video he is a member of the Red Berets.  His

17     brother was with me at location 4."

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What did you mean by "but on this video he is a member of the Red

20     Berets?"

21        A.   According to my information they were from another unit, from the

22     Poskok unit.  However, on this footage we see Mr. Opacic in a Red Beret

23     uniform, filed alongside some Red Beret veterans.  I don't know him

24     personally, but as I've already said, I saw him brother at location 4.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So when you watched the video, am I correct that you

Page 5760

 1     were surprised when you heard him described as a veteran of the special

 2     unit of the state security because it was your experience that he was

 3     none of the sort; is that correct?

 4        A.   Could you please reformulate your question.  I failed to

 5     understand.

 6        Q.   All right.  From what you saw and heard in your time in the unit

 7     Opacic was not a member of the Red Berets, he was a member of the Poskok

 8     unit; correct?

 9        A.   I said that about his brother and not about the gentleman we see

10     in the still.

11        Q.   Well, the gentleman in the still, you made a comment on the chart

12     expressing surprise that he was a Red Beret, is that correct, or he was

13     portrayed as a Red Beret in the Kula award ceremony?

14             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, the witness never said on the chart

15     anything about surprise.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'm obviously putting an interpretation on

17     it, I'm asking the witness if he accepts that.  I can reformulate it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps if the witness had already some

19     difficulties with your previous question and I -- if the witness would

20     not have expressed it, I might have said something about it.  Could you

21     please try to clearly distinguish between facts and emotional experience.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   When you said, Mr. Witness, in the chart about Opacic brother, he

24     used to be a member of the Poskok unit but on this video, he is a member

25     of the Red Berets, you were expressing surprise because it was your

Page 5761

 1     experience that Opacic was not a Red Beret; is that correct?

 2        A.   I wasn't surprised.  I merely watched the footage and I heard the

 3     officers introduce themselves to Slobodan Milosevic.  This gentleman

 4     said, Opacic, I forget the first name, and then it came to me that this

 5     was Opacic's brother and now I see him in the Red Berets.  When I

 6     discussed this with Opacic, I believe he told me they were members of the

 7     Poskok unit.  That's all I know.

 8        Q.   I'll leave it at that.  Yes, I'll leave it at that.  Thank you.

 9     Well, with one question.  You had not heard or seen anything which

10     suggested that Opacic was a member of the Red Beret unit; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   If you have Milos Opacic in mind, the person I was at location 4

13     with, at that time he was a Poskok member but the unit was in the same

14     camp where we were.

15        Q.   Okay.  We can leave it there.  Thank you.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go back, please, to P523 on e-court.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Not to be shown, Your Honour, thank you.  Actually,

19     sorry, let me deal with something else.  Please can I have on the screen

20     P540.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I take it that you made a calculated

22     guess which document finally would end up under 540 which is in the range

23     of where the descriptions still are to be expected.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I'm hoping.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but Mr. Registrar reserved the numbers but is

Page 5762

 1     still waiting.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps the easiest way to do it is to go to 65 ter

 3     5358, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the chart.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  It's the chart.  65 ter 5358.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Not to be shown to the public.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

 8        Q.   Looking, Mr. Witness, at the names you've identified here as

 9     those that you recognise, would you agree with me that all of these named

10     persons you recognise received, from what you saw, professional training,

11     professional police training whilst at the school at location 1?

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, perhaps my colleague could clarify

13     what he is talking about in terms of all these named persons.  Because

14     the witness talks about a lot of different people in the explanation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, what I understand Mr. Jordash would like to

16     find out whether all these names on the list were with the witness at

17     that location, is that --

18             MR. JORDASH:  Let me --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If you rephrase it so that everyone understands the

20     question.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps we should go into private session, if we

22     can so I can ask the question with freedom.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 5763











11 Pages 5763-5765 redacted. Private session.















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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  We adjourn for the day

16     and we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday the 16th of June, quarter past

17     2.00 in this same Courtroom II.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

20                           June, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.