1 Tuesday, 15 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2:20 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
6 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-03-69-T. The
7 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, I was just about to ask you to
9 call the case, but that's done already. I have a few procedural matters
10 and I was informed that there may be some procedural matters raised by
11 the parties as well. Let's see to what extent the one covers the other.
12 First of all, the Chamber has received a medical report today by
13 Dr. Eekhof. The Chamber is pleased to hear, Mr. Stanisic, that compared
14 to last week, you at least feel considerably better. That's on the
16 The second item -- for the next item we have to move into private
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I would like to raise an issue about
19 the medical situation. I don't know if it's a convenient time. I can
20 wait, it's of no consequence to the Defence if we wait.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first go through the matters I have on my
22 list then you have an opportunity. Mr. Registrar.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 5685-5689 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I would like to inform
16 the parties that the week of the 16th to the 20th of August will be a
17 non-sitting week in this case. So that's the first week after the recess
18 which we will not sit in that week.
19 I put the following on the record: The Prosecution has sought to
20 have proposed 65 ter 5183 which is an article of a medical journal to be
21 added to the 65 ter list. On the 9th of June, 2010, the OTP has
22 informally communicated to the Chamber that it withdraws the request to
23 seek addition to the 65 ter list for this medical journal article, as I
24 said, proposed 65 ter number 5183.
25 Last matter that I would like to put on the record is that on the
1 9th of June of 2010, the Chamber has informally granted Dr. de Man's
2 request to submit his next report later this month. He had asked for
3 some delay. These were the matters I had on my agenda.
4 Mr. Jordash, there was a matter you would like to raise.
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. It's in relation to
6 Mr. Stanisic's illness but specifically in relation to a matter which is
7 before Your Honours which is the matter of whether the Defence ought to
8 be given access to Mr. Stanisic's medical records. And I apologise if
9 it's trampling on matters which are probably before Your Honours but we
10 would ask in the -- we would ask a decision if at all possible be made as
11 soon as possible, and if I may just outline quickly why that is. Number
12 one, Mr. Stanisic has, to a large degree, come into conflict with his
13 treating doctor, Dr. Falke, and to a large extent has lost confidence in
14 what Dr. Falke does for Mr. Stanisic. In our submission that is not
15 unusual. It's not unusual that a patient falls out with his doctor.
16 What is unusual in this situation is that Mr. Stanisic can do nothing
17 really about that because his legal representatives do not have access to
18 his medical records and cannot advocate on his behalf concerning the
19 treatment. In an ordinary situation with an accused who is not
20 incarcerated, he could change doctors or he could give his medical
21 records to whoever he sought to have advocate on his behalf, in this
22 situation, Mr. Stanisic is without any recourse because it is he himself
23 doesn't have his medical records and neither do we.
24 And secondly, in relation to this issue, we in the Defence would
25 like to have those medical records because we feel hampered in making
1 decisions about what work we can do with Mr. Stanisic in the Defence
2 centre. Last week was a good example of that. Whilst Your Honours may
3 take the view we could go through our MO, that, in our submission, is in
4 a situation like what arose last week, not a very effective way of us
5 being able to do our job. We would have to put questions to the RMO
6 through the Trial Chamber, the Prosecution would have an opportunity to
7 respond and so on and so forth. We would like to see the medical records
8 that we can make decisions on a day-to-day as to what we can and cannot
9 do with Mr. Stanisic in the detention centre. I apologise again for
10 raising the issue because it is before Your Honours but nonetheless we
11 are in a difficult situation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there are, I think, several aspects of this
13 matter. The first is the patient/doctor relationship and access to
14 medical information. That is one. Primary responsibility for the
15 medical care is in the hands of the Registry.
16 And the second issue is reporting to the Chamber which is not
17 without reason, not done by the treating physician but by reporting
18 medical officers, we have separated that for good purposes, I would say.
19 That's the second issue.
20 Have you taken up the matter with the Registrar?
21 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honour, no, because there is some
22 confusion, and I had a lengthy discussion with our team about this. With
23 the matter going before Your Honours in the Registry submission of the
24 14th of December of 2009 and our response on the 18th of December, 2009
25 we thought on one view it was a matter now before Your Honours. On the
1 other hand, we recognize that the Registry might be a suitable avenue to
2 go down.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll now have to review that. I hope you'll
4 forgive me, perhaps that's different than my colleagues that I have not a
5 recollection -- a reliable recollection at this moment on exactly what we
6 said in December 2009. We'll further look into the matter, Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Anything else? There is one matter which is related
9 to the next witness to be called and that is recently filed 92 ter
10 motion. We have not received responses yet which doesn't come as a
11 surprise because the motion was filed rather late. Are there any
12 observations by the Defence. Mr. Petrovic?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We did not
14 submit our written response. However, given that we are expecting the
15 witness to enter by your leave, we wanted to put our position to you
16 concerning the requested modality of taking this testimony. I believe
17 this may be the best moment to do so.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Simatovic Defence
20 objects to the request for this witness to testify under Rule 92 ter.
21 First of all, concerning the request itself made by the Prosecutor, this
22 witness figures as a -- has been known as a viva voce witness, if not a
23 few years. Only a few days back it was requested that his type of
24 testimony be changed. It was not explained why, only certain general
25 explanations were given and some limited legal argumentation. Other than
1 that, no reasons were provided why the Prosecutor after so much time
2 wished for this type of testimony to be changed. (redacted)
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 5695-5705 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Ms. Marcus, in order to
5 not lose time, would you pay especially attention to avoiding repetitious
6 evidence which is already in the statement or in the transcript.
7 MS. MARCUS: Absolutely, Your Honour.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness JF-048. Can you hear me in
10 a language you understand?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
13 Evidence require that you make solemn declaration the text of which is
14 now handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Witness JF-048.
19 Witness, we will call you JF-048 because protective measures are in
20 place. The public will not see your face and will not use your name,
21 although your testimony will be for to some extent in public and only
22 where the evidence would be at risk to reveal your identity, the parties
23 will ask for private session. You will first now be examined by
24 Ms. Marcus, Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution, and you find her
25 to your right. Ms. Marcus, please proceed.
1 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 WITNESS: JF-048
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
5 Q. Good afternoon, JF-048.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the Court Officer please to call up 65
8 ter 5362, which is the witness's pseudonym sheet, but not to broadcast
10 Q. I ask you please to take a look at what we see on the screen in
11 front of us. Where it says "witness name," is that your name?
12 A. Yes, that's my name.
13 Q. Directing your attention to where it says "date of birth," is
14 that your date of birth?
15 A. Yes, that's my date of birth.
16 MS. MARCUS: Could we kindly go into private session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, with your leave I would like to tender
16 this pseudonym sheet in to evidence under seal, please, that's 65 ter
17 number 5362.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number will be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be Exhibit P522, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P522 is admitted into evidence under seal. Please
22 MS. MARCUS:
23 Q. JF-048, do you recall giving a statement in this case on the 5th
24 and 6th of May of the year 2000?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. And do you recall testifying in the Milosevic case?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. MARCUS: Could I request private session, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 MS. MARCUS:
3 Q. JF-048, prior to coming to testify today did you have an
4 opportunity to review the prior evidence you gave?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. You made a few corrections to your prior statement in proofing
7 and I'd like to show you the proofing note which resulted.
8 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 5343.
9 This is the proofing note, but please not to broadcast it. It is dated
10 13th of June, 2010.
11 Q. JF-048, is this document the product of the corrections you made
12 during our preparations for your testimony today?
13 A. Could we please zoom in. I'm unable to read it. Thank you.
14 Yes, these are the corrections.
15 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this proofing note prior to
16 signing it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, having reviewed your prior evidence including this proofing
19 note, now apart from the corrections you made in this proofing note, is
20 there anything else you would like to change?
21 A. No.
22 Q. If you were to be asked the same questions today as you were
23 asked when you gave your prior evidence, would you provide the same
24 answers in substance?
25 A. In essence I would. It's been a long time since these events and
1 perhaps I wouldn't use the very same words, but the gist of my statement
2 is the same.
3 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
4 accuracy and truthfulness of your prior evidence including the proofing
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
8 65 ter 5346, 65 ter 5347, and 65 ter 5343 into evidence under seal. All
9 three of them under seal.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you please assign numbers.
11 5346 and 5347 should be MFI'd.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 5346 will be P523
13 marked for identification. 65 ter 5347 will be P524 marked for
14 identification. And 65 ter 5343 will be P525, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The last one, the proofing note does not refer
16 in any way to Kosovo, so, therefore, could we not yet already admit into
17 evidence 5343. Although if the others are not admitted or at least if
18 not major portions are admitted, it would lose its meaning. 5343 is
19 admitted into evidence under seal. And the MFI'd documents should be
20 under seal as well.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, at this time I would also tender the
23 nine related exhibits. With your leave, I'll just read the 65 ter
24 numbers into the record, if that's how Your Honours wish to proceed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, is it 65 ter 5348 up to and including 5355?
1 MS. MARCUS: With respect, Your Honours, it's up to 5356. This
2 was due to the -- their being out of order in the ERN range, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Yes, I see that the last two are not in
4 range. So, therefore, it's 5348 up to and including 5356. Any
5 objections? (redacted)
9 THE REGISTRAR: The 65 ter number 5348 up until 5346, Your
10 Honours, will be Exhibit P526 till Exhibit P534, Your Honours. All under
12 JUDGE ORIE: P526 up to and including P534 are admitted into
13 evidence under seal.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
16 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. May I place on the record
17 now that the page reference that Your Honours queried before should be
18 14668 instead of 14688. I do apologise sincerely for the typographical
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. Please proceed.
21 MS. MARCUS:
22 Q. Pursuant to the Trial Chamber's instructions on the 18th of
23 February, 2010, I will now read out a public summary of your evidence.
24 This summary does not constitute evidence in this case. It is for the
25 purpose of informing the public of the general nature of the evidence you
1 have been called to present. To allay any concerns you may have about
2 your security, this public summary will not contain any identifying
4 JF-048 joined the group of the Serbian MUP known as the JATD or
5 Red Berets in 1995. Over the course of the following year, he was sent
6 to various Red Beret JATD camps. During his time at these sites and
7 through his membership in the Red Berets under the Serbian DB, he became
8 familiar with the structure of command within the Red Berets under the
9 state security.
10 He was present at a ceremony opening one of the camps in which
11 both accused Stanisic and Simatovic were present. While at one of the
12 training camps he was sent to, the witness became aware of the supplying
13 of groups operating in the area. These other groups included Arkan's Men
14 with both Arkan and Legija personally visiting the camp to obtain
15 supplies and Boca's detachment who drove jeeps with scorpions on the
16 sides who also came to this training camp to obtain supplies and
17 ammunition. In addition, the witness saw the accuse Simatovic arrive at
18 one of the camps, more than one of the camps, correction, in a helicopter
19 in order to test new weapons. The witness will testify to the command
20 structure in the camps and in his unit. JF-048 will identify his
21 instructors, many of whom moved with the unit from one training camp to
22 another along with the witness. At another camp the witness discovered
23 about 30 prisoners who had had their sentences reduced for joining the
24 war front.
25 These prisoners acted like reservists to the Red Berets. JF-048
1 was present when the accused Simatovic stated that the witness's unit had
2 to do whatever that was asked of them and also heard Simatovic make other
3 statements as well. JF-048 will testify that unlike other branches of
4 the state security service that had an official hierarchical
5 organisational structure according to the MUP regulations, it was his
6 perception that the Red Berets did not operate according to the official
7 MUP DB rules. His perception was that his unit of the Red Berets
8 reported directly through Dragoslav Krsmanovic to Franko Simatovic who
9 JF-048 understood to be reporting to Stanisic and/or to Milosevic.
10 That ends the public summary.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
13 Q. JF-048, can you explain why you chose to join the unit?
8 Q. From your perspective, JF-048, when you joined the unit, what was
9 your understanding of what unit you were joining?
10 A. At that time the only thing I knew was what we had been told and
11 that is that it was a special unit of the state security sector. We were
12 also told that we were to undergo very rigorous training and that the
13 background checks to join the unit were very stringent. A sentence
14 remains as to my memory, it went something along the lines, it is very
15 difficult to join this unit but it is even more difficult to leave it.
16 Q. At the time you joined, did you know this unit to be the Red
18 A. Specifically none of the instructors or the persons who appeared
19 at location number 1 at that time did say we were the Red Berets. They
20 did wear red berets, however. Of course, there were also rumours going
21 around at location 1 that they were from the Red Berets. However,
22 officially it was a special unit of the public security sector, of the
23 state security sector, interpreter's correction, and this is what we were
25 MS. MARCUS: For the record I'm seeking clarification and
1 elaboration of the witness's comments on pages 4 and 5 of his statement.
2 Q. One more question on this, JF-048. At this time that you joined,
3 did you know that unit that you joined to be the JATD?
4 A. As far as I can remember, I can only say with certainty that it
5 was a special unit of the state security sector. As for the acronym
6 JATD, figured only later, at least that's how I remember it.
7 Q. When you say later, can you tell us either a time-period or
8 perhaps a location where you first came to understand that the group was
9 the JATD?
10 A. What I can remember specifically is that when our superiors told
11 us that officially as of that day we were the anti-terrorist operations
12 unit of the state security sector, and the official recognition took
13 place a few months after that at location 5.
14 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I'm conscious of the time. If Your
15 Honours are sticking to the original schedule, this might be a good
16 pausing point.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll have a break and we'll resume at five
18 minutes past 4.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 3.35 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.
22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. JF-048, as you are aware, your prior statement and testimony are
24 now before the Chamber, so the questions I'm asking you are just
25 follow-ups and clarifications on some of your prior evidence.
1 MS. MARCUS: Could I ask the Court Officer please to call up
2 P528. This is one of the related exhibits that was admitted. It was 65
3 ter 5350.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, since they are all under seal, they should not
5 be shown to the public.
6 MS. MARCUS: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 Q. JF-048, this document is already in evidence. I just want to ask
8 you one question about it. I note that on this document there is no
9 mention of the JATD. Do you have any idea why?
10 A. My opinion is that the JATD is not being referred to in this
11 document because we were from the very beginning told very clearly that
12 the unit was of an extremely secretive character and that we were
13 strictly forbidden to discuss the operations of the unit and the very
14 existence of that very unit. And this decision explains that I was to be
15 employed by the state security sector, and that was the only thing that
16 was required to be contained in that decision.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have an English text for those who are
18 watching the English versions.
19 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, may I continue?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.
21 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
22 Q. In your statement you say that the Red Berets were a kind of
23 paramilitary branch of the DB. You talk about this a few times in your
24 statement on pages 4 and 5. Can you explain what you meant when you said
1 A. First and foremost, I graduated at location 1. I was in company
2 of trainers, instructors, professors and taught by them. However, during
3 those three years of education at location 1, there have never been
4 actions by instructors or management personnel the likes of which
5 occurred within the unit, and this first alerted me and my doubts. Later
6 on at location 2, we were paid in cash for awhile without signing any
7 chits as would be customary by regular employees of the Ministry of the
8 Interior either to their bank accounts or on the basis of a form with an
9 official seal of the ministry. We were paid in cash and this caused
10 doubts among my colleagues and me, and we were looking at each other
11 saying what is this, what is going on.
12 Q. Can you explain a little more why, what kinds of doubts this
13 caused being paid in cash, and maybe you could explain a little bit
14 further as to what that made you doubt?
15 A. Well, when we came to location 2, several months intervened
16 before we received official decisions on our employment with the Ministry
17 of the Interior. We were official graduates from the secondary school at
18 location 1. I don't want to mention any names. And my peers expected
19 when being employed by the state organ that the first thing would be the
20 written decision on employment and other supporting documents that were
21 supposed to be produced pursuant to administrative roles. But nothing of
22 sort materialised and this is what brought about our doubts.
23 For instance, one of my school colleagues, several days after
24 joining the unit, started doubting and he said I want to leave this
25 outfit and he left the unit within a few days. There were some other
1 cases later on which I can explain further if necessary.
2 MS. MARCUS: Could we go into private session, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
23 MS. MARCUS:
24 Q. Did any of your commanders ever say anything which suggested to
25 you that you were part of a secret unit as you've described to us?
1 A. Not once. My instructors kept on emphasising that we were not
2 supposed to talk about the unit at home without -- to our friends,
3 family, what we were doing, where we were at, and it has been emphasised
4 on numerous occasions that this unit was a very secretive, extremely
5 secretive character.
6 Q. I'd like to ask you a clarification of something you just said
7 above. That's at our temporary transcript page 34, line 19. You said:
8 "However, during those three years of education at location 1, there have
9 never been actions by instructors or management personnel, the likes of
10 which occurred within the unit."
11 Could you explain what you meant when you said that?
12 A. Specifically what I meant by this is this: No instructions or
13 professors at location 1 stated, I'm trying to quote their words, one of
14 commanders at one occasion said, If any of you does not do as told by me,
15 I can kill that person at this moment and to write on his grave he
16 bravely gave his life to the fatherland. And this prompted me and my
17 colleagues to doubt and to be afraid, sort of.
18 Q. You feel comfortable telling us the name of who said that in open
19 session, or would you prefer in private session?
20 A. I would prefer for that to be in private session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 MS. MARCUS:
25 Q. JF-048, can you describe the supply warehouse at location 2.
1 What kinds of supplies were there?
2 A. The warehouse itself was located close to the entrance to the
3 camp. The warehouse was a low building connected with the dining room,
4 meaning the kitchen and the dining room, the mess room. When we first
5 arrived at location 2, we were issued with everything that we needed for
6 the training; weapons, the uniforms. And at the back of the warehouse,
7 if I remember correctly, there was a section for storing food. In the
8 rest of the warehouse was stockpiled were ammunition, uniforms, and all
9 other supplies that we needed for training.
10 Q. How would you compare the kinds of supplies which were kept and
11 distributed at location 2 with those at the other locations?
12 A. What was interesting is that supplies, if we can call them that,
13 at location 4 and those at location 2 -- well, location 2 supplies were
14 of a character corresponded to the current needs of the unit. As I said,
15 uniforms, food, ammunition, weapons. Whereas at location 4, in certain
16 facilities, there were everything, to put it simply. Everything was
17 warehoused there.
18 Q. I'm going to return that in just a few minutes when we talk about
19 location 4. Now during your time - we are still talking about location 2
20 - did you come to know the connection or relationship, if any, between
21 Arkan's Men and the DB?
22 A. The only thing that I can state in respect of the relationship
23 between Red Berets or the JATD and Arkan's Tigers and later on the Boca
24 unit, is that on two occasions I saw members of Arkan's Tigers coming to
25 location 2 to fetch supplies. I specifically saw them stacking green
1 coloured crates, military crates, as I presumed because I wasn't close
2 enough to see accurately what was in them, but those were military type
3 crates for ammunition or hand-grenades.
4 On another occasion, two or three members -- I'm sorry, I don't
5 know exactly how many. Those were from the Boca unit coming there.
6 Q. I'll ask you about Boca's unit in just a moment. Staying with
7 Arkan's Tigers, what was your understanding of how it was that Arkan's
8 Tigers could obtain supplies from the DB camp?
9 A. How was that possible is not something I could divine from my
10 position, neither did I try to divine that. It was a public secret, so
11 to speak, that Arkan's Tigers were no official unit of the Ministry of
12 the Interior, whereas, it was known in respect of us that we were members
13 of a special unit of the state security sector. How those two units were
14 connected is not something I can explain. I can just state what I saw at
15 location 2.
16 Q. Now, returning to what you said about Boca's detachment. You
17 talk about this on page 10 in your statement. Can you provide any
18 greater detail as to what kind of supplies Boca's detachment obtained
19 from the warehouse at location 2 to your knowledge?
20 A. As far as I know on both occasions in the case when I saw Arkan's
21 Tigers members and members of the Boca detachment, in both cases those
22 crates were green, military-type crates, which most probably contained
23 ammunition or hand-grenades. Military equipment or military supplies at
24 any rate.
25 Q. Do you recall approximately when it was that you saw Boca's
1 detachment? The month is fine.
2 A. To the best of my recollection that could only have been in
3 either July or August 1995. I think there's more of a chance that it was
4 actually July, at least that's what I can remember now because it's been
5 a long time ago.
6 Q. At the time did you know who Boca's detachment was?
7 A. I had no information about what sort of a detachment it was. I
8 could only see what I did see, and this was news to me. One of my
9 presumptions was that it was one of the, well, let's call them special
10 units, but I had never heard or known of this unit before. That's all.
11 Q. Now, moving on to location 3. At location 3 did you have the
12 same instructors as you had at location 2?
13 A. Most of them were the same, plus there may have been a couple of
14 new instructors. What I knew at the time was that they came from another
16 MS. MARCUS: Can we go into private session, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 MS. MARCUS:
23 Q. JF-048, how would you compare the kinds of supplies which were
24 kept and distributed at location 3 with the other locations?
25 A. In essence at location 3, this was a ready-made or a makeshift
1 camp. There were no solid buildings there. Mostly they were tents. At
2 location 3 in addition to the tents where we slept there was another tent
3 with a smaller number of ammunition crates and a small amount of food, 99
4 per cent of which was canned food.
5 Q. Did you see Franko Simatovic at location 3?
6 A. At location 3, I never saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic there.
7 Q. Now, moving on to location 4, were there any other groups present
8 at location 4 apart from your group?
9 A. As for location 4, when I just arrived there, there was the
10 Poskok unit. As far as I remember, my unit and the Poskok unit merged
11 around that time. They also used the location number 4.
12 Q. What did you do during your time at location 4?
13 A. On both tours at location 4 as far as I remember -- well, that
14 location did not offer such possibilities as locations 2 or even more
15 location 5. What should I call it? It was a temporary holding area of
16 sorts to move on to another, say, X location.
17 Q. I just want to clarify, the question I asked you was in relation
18 to location 4. I just want to be sure that that was your answer for
19 location 4. It can be a little bit confusing since we are not using the
20 names of the places. My question was what you did during your time at
21 location 4?
22 A. Well, to tell you the truth, it is a bit confusing with the
23 numbers. But as I've said already, I may have omitted to say that at
24 location 4 one could, and we did, undertake only basic physical training.
25 We had sufficient space for that. These included morning warmup,
1 exercises in the field in front of the main building, but such training
2 as there was at locations 1, 3, and 5 is something we did not do at
3 location 4.
4 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you just a few more questions about
5 location 4 since you didn't elaborate as much in your statement on that
6 location. Could you compare the kinds of supplies which were kept and
7 distributed at location 4 with other locations. You stated to tell us
8 about it a little bit earlier, perhaps you can elaborate on that.
9 A. Yes, there was something specific concerning location 4 and I saw
10 this myself, and it was absent in all other locations, was that close to
11 the main building where the unit was, as far as I recall, there were
12 three or four large hangars. Well, I won't enumerate everything, but
13 there were enormous quantities of foreign produced cigarettes to
14 luxurious foreign cars. I even saw an American ambulance in one of the
15 hangars and on location 4 I even saw foreign combat vehicles. I remember
16 clearly there was a French combat vehicle there in addition to a few
18 Q. What uniforms did you wear during your time in training at
19 location 4?
20 A. As far as I recall we wore NATO uniforms. That is to say
21 camouflage uniforms with the pattern resembling NATO uniforms.
22 Q. And what insignias, if any, did you wear at location 4?
23 A. As far as I recall, we had the Red Berets with the wolf emblem or
24 patch, and as far as I recall it wasn't desirable to sport any kind of
25 insignia on the uniform itself. If I'm not mistaken, we did not have any
1 insignia on the uniforms.
2 Q. Do you recall what insignias were worn by your instructors at
3 location 4?
4 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember that.
5 Q. Do you recall any insignias worn by your commanders at location
7 A. Unfortunately I really cannot recall that. Anything I might say
8 would be speculation. I don't want to tell you anything I cannot
9 remember with certainty.
10 MS. MARCUS: Could we have private session, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MS. MARCUS:
5 Q. I'm going to turn now to location 5. How would you compare the
6 kinds of supplies which were kept and distributed at location 5 with the
7 other locations?
8 A. The supplies at location 5 in essence -- well, there is one way
9 to compare the locations. It is my conclusion that the other locations
10 save for locations 1 and 5 were temporary locations. Whereas location 5
11 following my arrival there -- well, we were told that it was to be our
12 permanent location. Of course, the supplies at that location especially
13 in terms of food and conditions were far better than at other locations.
14 Q. Were there any other groups present at location 5 apart from your
16 A. No. As I've stated already, it was around that time as far as I
17 remember, our unit, the JATD, merged, or rather, took in members of the
18 Poskok unit of the Krajina. If you had in mind such units which I was
19 able to observe at location 2, then I can tell you that they were not
20 present at location 5.
21 Q. What did you do during your time at location 5?
22 A. At location 5 as in the case of locations 1 and 3, we underwent
23 physical and combat training plus theory, plus martial arts training
24 because the conditions were far better. We also had our regular duties
25 befalling any member of the unit at my level, i.e., standing guard, being
1 on duty during the night and day.
2 Q. Now, we've been through the five locations, four of which were --
3 have been camps that you are talking about. Can you compare for us what
4 you knew about the JATD, the Red Berets, the group you had joined, what
5 you knew at location 2 with what your understanding and perception was by
6 the time you reached location 5?
7 A. I apologise, I did not understand exactly. What location did you
8 refer to, was it location 2?
9 Q. Yes, I'm trying to compare what your perception was of the unit
10 from the beginning, from the first location which is location 2 being the
11 first camp, comparing that with what your perception was of the unit at
12 location 5. Some time had passed, these locations go chronologically, so
13 I'm trying to understand if your perception had changed in any way, and
14 if so, in what way did your perception and understanding change?
15 A. Of course it changed drastically. Following location 2 and up to
16 location 5, the simplest explanation or an answer to your question would
17 be this: While I was at location 2, I did understand that it was a
18 special unit, that we were to undergo rigorous training, and that
19 discipline was required. This is something that applied to all the
20 locations. But having graduated to location 5 with time I came to
21 realize that that location was an official location for a respectable
22 unit. That's at least my opinion, my view of things.
23 For example, at location 2 as well as at location 3, there were a
24 few cases, which in my view having learned what I did at location 1,
25 would have otherwise been impermissible within the MUP. At location 5,
1 however, at least to my knowledge, such things did not happen.
2 Q. Was there any kind of psychological training which you underwent
3 at any time in any of these locations?
4 A. In my view we were exposed to some sort of psychological training
5 on a daily basis, starting with the very banal fact such as hearing your
6 instructor say every day that he was both your mother and father at the
7 same time and everything that matters to you in the whole world up to
8 certain types of training and types of punishment even. In my view, we
9 were exposed to daily psychological training of some sort. The gist of
10 that type of training, in my view, was to realise the importance of the
11 unit, the importance of secrecy within that unit, and the importance of
12 obeying what one is told under any circumstances. We were not to ponder
13 on the rights and wrongs of something. We would simply hear instructors
14 say, this is it, and that's your whole story.
15 Q. Did you have any kind of oath or pledge which you took as part of
16 the JATD Red Berets?
17 A. In terms of an official oath such as an oath that would be taken
18 before a court, that did not exist. However, there was an oath well
19 known amongst us. I cannot recall the exact words now, but it boils down
20 to -- well, I'm explaining the meaning of it. It boiled down to if you
21 were ever left alone in the field during an operation, take great care
22 not to fall into enemy hands alive. You put a bull let through your
23 brain, but do not allow yourself to be taken alive. I think that would
24 be the right answer to your question.
25 Q. I'm going to ask our Case Manager to play a clip from the unit
1 video, part 2. It's been uploaded at 65 ter 2609.3. It corresponds to
2 the full video which is 2609 at 42 minutes, 57 seconds to 43 minutes 35
3 seconds. I'd like to just note that when this was reviewed it turned out
4 that the transcript did not have this particular portion in it. We
5 noticed that in the English. We immediately submitted it for
6 translation, and now we are going to upload the full English translation
7 for the full transcript. In the meantime, the transcript will run
8 underneath it as we play it, and the booth has been given the
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "One day when you find yourself
12 alone in the battle-field."
13 Interpreter's note: We cannot make out the text, we can merely
14 follow the subtitles.
15 [Voiceover] And the enemy women, children, and dogs came to tear
16 you to pieces, shoot a bullet through your head and die a hero."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, apparently the sound was such that the
18 interpreters could not translate from the original words spoken. If
19 there's any challenge to what is said and whether it's accurately
20 translated, then I'm primarily addressing native speaking persons or
21 those who have access to native speaking persons. Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the sound was very
23 bad and in Serbian I basically understood nothing. Therefore, I have
24 full understanding for the interpreters. One simply cannot make anything
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the question remains whether this is -- what
2 the probative value is. Apparently someone once thought that he could
3 hear what was said. I would suggest that if there are any -- even if a
4 repeated effort is made, if there's still no possibility to hear what was
5 said in the original language, then of course, we'd have to consider
7 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. I'd just like to note, during
8 preparation the witness told me what the oath was and then upon watching
9 this later, he started reciting it while it was going on. So this is the
10 reason for showing it now. The witness can certainly comment on it. He
11 could even sing it along with the participants if Your Honours prefer so
12 that the words can be translated by the interpreters simultaneously.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether he would then -- if you can't hear
14 what is said in the original language then it may be difficult to
15 conclude that the witness is using the same words as the words which
16 could not be heard, but he suggests are used. I would, as a matter of
17 fact -- I would suggest that the parties try again to see whether -- or
18 to hear whether they can come to a similar conclusion as the Prosecution.
19 If not, then I'd like to hear from the Defence, and we could ask perhaps
20 others to advise us on the matter.
21 Now, whatever is said, whether they say anything or not, it's
22 what the witness apparently testified. So even without the video, that
23 testimony stands, and I do understand you well that he first spoke those
24 words when being interviewed himself and only after that you had showed
25 him the video. The one question remains, had you seen this video before,
1 Witness JF-048?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had seen this footage before.
3 However, I want to say that I saw this oath in written form for the first
4 time at location 2. It was in a notepad belonging to one of my
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when you watched this video, did you listen to
7 the original language?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And did you recognise the words spoken or almost
10 shouted to be the same words as you learned to be the kind of pledge or
11 what you earlier told us? Were you able to understand what they said or
12 what they shouted?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, especially in the part of the
14 video where the unit members take the oath just before lunch. The second
15 part where the oath is spoken by I believe what are Arkan's Tigers, this
16 is something I saw for the first time on TV. However, the other part of
17 the footage showing members of my former unit just before lunch, that is
18 something I am familiar with.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you did hear them use the words you know as
20 what we call the -- well, it's not a real oath, but at least the pledge,
21 shoot yourself rather than to fall into the hands of the enemy? Could
22 you recognise the words?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you now remember the precise text? Could you
25 speak it, could you tell us aloud what the exact wording is, if you
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day when you are left wounded
5 in the battle-field and enemy women, children, and dogs arrive -- I
6 apologise, this is a bit stressful for me. So enemy, women, children,
7 and dogs arrive to tear you apart, put a bullet through your head and die
8 a hero.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
10 MS. MARCUS:
11 Q. JF-048, the video we have just seen, was this members of your
12 unit or members of Arkan's Tigers?
13 A. No, the people in black uniforms, at least during the period I
14 was with the unit, did not exist in that unit. These were Arkan's
15 Tigers. In the other portion of the footage where you can see guys in
16 NATO uniforms, these would be members of my unit. Or rather, of the unit
17 I was a member of.
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, what I would propose with your leave
19 is to mark this clip for identification and then to submit it for, I
20 guess, an official translation. Maybe the experts in the Registry who do
21 the translation will be able to determine whether it's audible or
22 inaudible. We note that there was no notation in the transcript saying
23 words inaudible which usually does appear in an official translation and
24 then perhaps we can tender it into evidence at that stage.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash or Mr. Petrovic, any comment on this
1 suggestion by Ms. Marcus to have it marked for identification so that
2 everyone can give it another try to see whether they can identify the
3 words spoken or used?
4 MR. JORDASH: Yes, that's -- could I just seek clarification.
5 This seems to be a new element to the Prosecution case. Is it their case
6 that this is a pledge taken by everybody who joined the Serbian DB's Red
7 Beret unit?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully endorse this
10 approach. However, some words are intelligible but it is not clear
11 whether those both groups that could be seen are uttering those words or
12 not. This could not be concluded from the video footage, and what is
13 unclear also is how this was edited and who compiled the whole video
14 footage that we saw.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, could you tell us of which portion you
16 understood what words so that we can better focus. The black uniforms or
17 the ones sitting at the table, which ones were you able to --
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to be frank,
19 I cannot pinpoint which words I could understand. I would have to redo
20 it and listen to it very carefully to inform you. I can do it later in
21 the day or tomorrow and let you know. I had an impression that the
22 people are not mouthing in sync with the audio because what we could see
23 were two groups of people saying something, and the audio seemed to be
24 one. I could understand a word or two out of the whole melee, the sound
25 was very poor, but if we were to hear it in better audio conditions,
1 maybe we could understand more.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's appreciated that you want to give it
3 another try. Could you already tell us what words you thought you had
4 understood? The word or two.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] For instance, Your Honour, I think
6 I understood women and children, but if you give me some time, I will
7 seriously deal with it, otherwise it would be hardly of any assistance if
8 I were to try to explain which words. I did, however, understand some
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic, the reason why I asked you this
11 is, and of course, as I said before, we appreciate that you want to give
12 it another try, if you would have understood words which do not appear in
13 what is now the transcript then of course we might have a more serious
14 problem compared to the situation where the words you just mentioned are
15 at least in the text which we have seen recently.
16 Mr. Registrar, the MFI number for this clip of this video.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The Exhibit will be P535 marked for
18 identification, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed,
20 Ms. Marcus.
21 MS. MARCUS: Witness JF-048, could you tell us --
22 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I don't know if Your Honours ruled against
23 me in terms of seeking clarification on the issue. It just would be nice
24 to know if that's the Prosecution case before the translation of the
25 video comes out.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me -- that is a question. I understood,
2 but perhaps I'm wrong, therefore perhaps we just ask the witness, is that
3 this was a kind of a repeated kind of yell with a special meaning for and
4 not something to be officially taken at joining the unit. Is that
5 correctly understood, Witness JF-048, that you would on a regular basis
6 now and then yell as a group those words? Is that right?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right, Your Honour.
8 Those words or this recital was done by us before taking a meal. We
9 never officially took a pledge having such words.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, is what the witness just said, does that
11 fit into the Prosecution's case?
12 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. The use of the word "oath" was
13 the terminology that was used by the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Jordash, is that sufficiently clear?
15 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 5358.
18 I note that this is the first chart that is in the hard copy handouts
19 that we've provided to all the parties and to the Chamber. 5358. It is
20 a payment list authentication spreadsheet. Please, may I ask not to
21 broadcast it. May I ask that the English be shown although there is
22 obviously a B/C/S version. The witness understands English quite well,
23 and I think it would be more visible to everybody if we could show the
24 English version. Thank you.
25 Q. JF-048, in preparation for your testimony in this case, you were
1 asked to review a number of payment records and provide your comments
2 upon them. Did you, in fact, review a number of payment records, the
3 ones listed in this chart, and did you comment upon them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you given an opportunity to review what was written to
6 ensure it was accurate according to the information you had provided?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 MS. MARCUS: Could I please ask to show the bottom of the page.
9 Q. Is this your signature which appears at the bottom of this
11 A. Yes, that's my signature.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I would like to tender this
13 authentication chart into evidence. It's 65 ter 5358 under seal.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. Mr. Registrar, the number
15 would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P536 under seal, Your
18 JUDGE ORIE: P536 is admitted into evidence under seal.
19 MS. MARCUS:
20 Q. How would you compare the payments you received with payments you
21 might receive performing the normal job of a police officer?
22 A. I think that I've already stated, particularly at location number
23 2, the salary was given in cash without any administrative procedures, no
24 chits being signed, no decisions on the level of pay, and to the best of
25 my recollection, that those administrative procedures took place at
1 location 5, and then from that point onwards, we received our salaries
2 just as any other officers in an envelope with a letterhead of MUP and
3 with signing that we had received our salaries.
4 Q. How would you compare the quantity that you were paid, the amount
5 of your salary in the unit with the amount of a salary you would have
6 received as an ordinary police officer?
7 A. Well, our salary in the unit were drastically higher that the
8 take-home pay of members of public security, I mean policemen. They were
9 drastically higher. And for the conditions of the time in the area of
10 former Yugoslavia
11 Q. Do you recall any occasions when the payments that you received
12 varied in quantity and amount when you received a different amount?
13 A. I cannot recall the specific amounts to the dinar, but there were
14 occasions once or twice that on top of salary we would receive bonuses or
15 a premium over salary. We called them premiums.
16 Q. Can you recall what circumstances led to you receiving a bonus or
17 a premium over your salary?
18 A. As far as I can remember, there was no particular reason. But if
19 my memory serves me well, this mostly used to happen after our stay at
20 location 3, for instance. When we would be at location 3, if I remember
21 correctly, we would receive those premiums. My conclusion was that those
22 premiums were connected with us being at that location and not at our
23 regular location. In MUP we used to call them, at least in public
24 security sector, as an allowance for a stay in the field.
25 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 5359,
1 which is also in the hard copy handouts that have been given to the
2 parties. Similar to the previous one this one is in English and B/C/S in
3 e-court, but if we can show the English so that the witness can confirm
4 it, that should be good.
5 Q. JF-048, in preparation for your testimony in this case, you were
6 asked to review your own DB personnel file and provide comments upon each
7 document contained therein. Did you, in fact, conduct this review of the
8 documents listed on this chart and did you comment upon them?
9 A. I apologise, yes, I did review those documents and I commented on
10 them. Yes, I did.
11 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, is it possible to see the English version.
12 Thank you.
13 Q. Were you given an opportunity to review what was written when you
14 gave your comments to ensure it was accurate according to the information
15 that you had provided?
16 A. Yes. This confirms the information contained in the original
17 documents, yes. Or the documents that I saw written in the Serbian
19 MS. MARCUS: Just to verify, this is not being broadcast, is that
20 correct? I'm sorry, I didn't ask for it. Okay. Thank you.
21 Q. Is this your signature which appears on the bottom of the page?
22 A. Yes, that's my signature.
23 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I would like to tender this
24 authentication chart into evidence. It is 65 ter 5359 under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. Mr. Registrar, the number
1 would be?
2 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be Exhibit P537 under seal, Your
4 JUDGE ORIE: P537 is admitted under seal. Please proceed.
5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, again I note the time, if Your Honours
6 would like me to continue I can, or we can take a break.
7 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need, Ms. Marcus?
8 MS. MARCUS: Well, I guess it depends on the objection, but if
9 there are no objections very briefly, maybe ten minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, I'm not asking the parties whether
11 they will object to any question which is difficult to forecast. We
12 resumed effectively, at least on this clock, at ten minutes past 5.00.
13 This is the usual time for a break, but I can imagine that the parties
14 would prefer to hear the last ten minutes of examination-in-chief first.
15 I'm also looking at Mr. Stanisic. We can take a break without any
16 problem, but Mr. Jordash, if you --
17 MR. JORDASH: I'll just take instructions, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]
20 MR. JORDASH: May we have a break now, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll have a break now and we will resume at
22 five minutes to 6.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.
1 MS. MARCUS: Thank, Your Honour. Could I ask the Court Officer
2 to please call up 65 ter 5360, not to broadcast it to the public, please.
3 This is third chart that is in the hard-copy handouts provided to all
4 present. I'd like to note for the record that this chart is identified
5 as 65 ter 1167 which is actually an exhibit marked for identification
6 that is P395 MFI'd.
7 Q. JF-048, in preparation for your testimony today, did you watch
8 the Skorpions video and comment upon it to the best of your knowledge?
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 THE INTERPRETER: There's no sound coming from the witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we check whether the witness's microphone is
12 switched on.
13 Could you please repeat your answer.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did watch the video and I
15 provided some comments on it.
16 MS. MARCUS:
17 Q. Were your comments noted down in the chart we see before us?
18 A. Yes, these are my comments that I provided after watching the
20 Q. Were you given an opportunity to review what was written to
21 ensure it was accurate according to the information you provided?
22 A. Yes, yes. This is exactly what I did once again.
23 MS. MARCUS: Perhaps we could scroll down to the bottom of the
24 page in the English version.
25 Q. Is this your signature which appears on the bottom of this chart?
1 A. Yes, this is my signature.
2 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, at this time I would tender this
3 spreadsheet into evidence under seal. It is 65 ter 5360.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of -- yes, Mr. Petrovic.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our objection would
6 refer to the fact that those -- this video footage dates from June 1995.
7 I do not recall witness stating that he saw anything of the sort in June
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
10 MS. MARCUS: On the contrary, the witness testified that he
11 believes that he saw Boca's detachment at location 2 in June or July
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seems that he stated July or
14 August, but this is very easily verifiable, if I'm wrong. But I do
15 believe he has stated July or August.
16 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I apologise, at page 40, lines 20
17 through 23, what the witness said is:
18 "To the best of my recollection that could only have been in
19 either July or August 1995. I think there's more of a chance that it was
20 actually July. At least that's what I can remember now, because it's
21 been a long time ago."
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and Mr. Petrovic said that he had not seen
23 anything from June, which is then --
24 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, yes, if you look at the witness's
25 comments, he is saying this is the type of vehicle, this is the insignia
1 I saw, and those are the type of crates.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's a different matter which apparently is
3 not covered. The comments are of a kind that the witness identifies the
4 persons he sees and sometimes describes what the functions were and his
5 comment on, for example, vehicles is not that he saw this at this very
6 moment, but he is testifying or at least is giving his comments as to his
7 familiarity with the type of documents. Mr. Petrovic. Mr. Jordash, any
9 MR. JORDASH: No, thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is overruled. Mr. Registrar, the
12 number would be?
13 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P538 under seal, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P538 is admitted into evidence under seal.
15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Could the Court Officer now please call up 65 ter 5361 and again
17 not broadcast it to the public.
18 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, I'm mixed up as a matter of fact in my
19 previous comments, the recognition of persons with -- because that was
20 not what was on our screen. Yes, I was already going too fast and said
21 that the witness recognised persons, but then I was apparently referring
22 to this series of stills from the Kula camp video. I apologise for that.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. JF-048, in preparation for your testimony today did you watch the
1 Kula camp video and comment upon it to the best of your knowledge?
2 A. Yes, I did watch the video and provided my comments on it.
3 Q. Were your comments noted down in the chart we see before us?
4 A. Could you please zoom in on the document.
5 MS. MARCUS: I think again perhaps if we show the English
6 version, that would suffice.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are my comments.
8 MS. MARCUS:
9 Q. Were you given an opportunity to review what was written to
10 ensure it was accurate according to the information you provided?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Is this your signature we see at the bottom of each page of this
14 A. Yes, at the bottom of this document is my signature.
15 Q. I'd like to ask you one clarification. In the bottom photo that
16 you see on the screen in front of you, at the timing 1 minute 28 seconds,
17 you say this is Zvezdan Jovanovic, aka Zveki. Can you tell us whether
18 your comment refers to the man on the left or the man on the right?
19 A. My remark refers to the person on the right-hand side so the
20 first person from the right is him.
21 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, at this time I would tender this
22 spreadsheet into evidence under seal. It is 65 ter 5361.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P539 under seal, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P539 is admitted under seal.
1 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. JF-048, I have one final question for you. On today's transcript
3 on page 57, lines 5 through 7, I'm going to quote to you what you said
4 and just ask you for a clarification. You said:
5 "I cannot recall the specific amounts to the dinar but there were
6 occasions once or twice that on top of salary we would receive bonuses or
7 a premium over salary. We called them premiums."
8 Apart from the salary and bonuses once or twice which you
9 received, did you receive any other payments when you were part of the
11 A. To the best of my recollection, no.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, at this time I would like to tender
13 the underlying payment records authenticated by the witness. I can read
14 the numbers into the record or I could provide them as Your Honours
15 please afterwards to the Registrar.
16 JUDGE ORIE: How many numbers would have to be reserved for that
17 purpose, or is it one number?
18 MS. MARCUS: No, Your Honour. I will tell you just now. It's
19 eight numbers, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Eight numbers. Mr. Registrar, could you already
21 tell us what the numbers would be that you would reserve.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P540 up to Exhibit P547,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this all for this witness?
25 MS. MARCUS: Those are the payment records that the witness
1 authenticated, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? Not. Then P540 up to and including
3 P547 are admitted into evidence under seal. If you would give a table
4 for the Registrar which exactly are the numbers, the corresponding
5 numbers and the corresponding descriptions of the documents, if there's
6 any problem with the description, then I would say by Thursday we would
7 hear those objections, and if not, we'll accept your description as given
8 to the Registrar. Please proceed.
9 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. We will do so. Finally, I
10 would also like to tender from the bar table the DB personnel file for
11 this witness. It was provisionally assigned 65 ter 5344. I note that it
12 is not on our 65 ter list, Your Honours, and we received it pursuant to
13 RFA 1691 from BIA.
14 JUDGE ORIE: When did you receive it?
15 MS. MARCUS: We received it in September of 2008, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against?
17 MR. JORDASH: No, thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then in the absence of any objections,
19 Mr. Registrar, the Exhibit number would be?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P548, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P548 is admitted into evidence under seal.
22 Ms. Marcus.
23 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I'm done with my examination-in-chief.
24 I just have one final comment I'd like to put on the record with your
25 leave. The Prosecution disputes Mr. Petrovic's submission in relation to
1 the clip which has now been marked as P535 marked for identification that
2 this is a voice-over of a clip. It's for the Trial Chamber -- we submit
3 that it's for the Trial Chamber to determine to watch it again and make
4 its determination of whether the Trial Chamber considers it to be a
5 voice-over, and certainly if the Chamber so requests, the Prosecution is
6 prepared to conduct a forensic examination to reach a resolution of this
7 issue. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: From what I understood is that -- I understood that
9 Mr. Petrovic will have a closer look at the document and then I take it
10 that he will include in his review of the video whether there's any
11 voice-over or whether it's -- we hear the voice of at least a voice which
12 corresponds with the lip movements of the person. We'll hear then
13 further from Mr. Petrovic.
14 My usual question is who is going to cross-examine the witness
15 first. I noticed that over time the Simatovic Defence has found itself
16 sometimes some trouble at the end in being urged to see whether we could
17 finish the witness, but I leave it to the parties whether the sequence is
18 as often Stanisic first and then Simatovic.
19 MR. JORDASH: It is us again, but we do discuss it with our
20 learned friends and make our decisions accordingly.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and, Witness JF-048, you'll now be
22 cross-examined by Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
23 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
24 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Whilst you were at location 1 did you commit -- you personally
4 commit any crimes?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Same question location 2, did you commit any crimes at location
8 A. No.
9 Q. Location 3, did you personally commit any crimes?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Location 4, same question, please.
12 A. No.
13 Q. And location 5, did you commit any crimes?
14 A. No.
15 Q. In location 2 did your unit commit any crimes whilst you were
17 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.
18 Q. Same question location 3, did your unit commit any crimes whilst
19 present in that location?
20 A. The same answer to the best of my knowledge, no.
21 Q. And would you give the same answer to the same question in
22 relation to location 4, did your unit commit any crimes?
23 A. The same answer goes to location 4 and location 5, as I say to
24 the best of my knowledge.
25 Q. Thank you. And is it right that at none of those locations were
1 you given any orders to commit any crimes? Is that correct also?
2 A. At no location did I receive any orders that I was supposed to
3 commit any crime.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, can I take you to the beginning of your
6 MR. JORDASH: Could we please go into private session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 5752-5754 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Could we have the English one, please.
13 Q. Would you have a look at the B/C/S while that's happening,
14 Mr. Witness.
15 MR. JORDASH: I beg your pardon, I think we've got the wrong --
16 either I misspoke or it was trans -- anyway, it's 4175, and I think we've
17 got 4715 on the screen. I don't know if I misspoke or what, but I don't
18 suppose it matters. 4175, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, is this what you want to have on the
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Have you had the opportunity to read that, Mr. Witness?
25 A. I'm reading it right now. Are you asking me whether I have seen
1 it before?
2 Q. I'm -- what I'm asking you is whether the Alfa camp that you were
3 told about is this Alfa camp mentioned in this military document as
4 opening in June of 1993? Is that what you are referring to?
5 A. I have no information about the establishment of Alfa camp. I
6 just heard my instructor referring to that camp, and the camp was
7 supposedly near Knin. As for any dates of when it was established or any
8 other information, well, that's something I don't have.
9 Q. Well, perhaps I can leave the subject with this question: The
10 origin of the unit as far as you understood whilst you were at location 2
11 and afterwards throughout your time with the unit was that it started in
12 a camp called the Alfa camp; is that right?
13 A. That is what our instructor said when he referred to the unit.
14 Q. And you never heard anything during your time with the unit which
15 suggested different to that, that it had other origins; is that correct?
16 A. I never heard any other information. In essence, what is at hand
17 here is that I heard my immediate superior say that our initial
18 instructors had been trained at the Alfa camp, that's all.
19 Q. Well, I just want to be clear about this. Your initial
20 instructors had been trained at the Alfa camp and they were the origins
21 of the unit; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that is what I recall.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. JORDASH: May I tender this from the bar table, Your Honours.
25 MS. MARCUS: No objections.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
2 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be Exhibit D71, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D71 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
4 Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Could we have, please, back on the
6 screen, P523. And can we go to page 6 of the English and the B/C/S.
7 Q. Could I take you to paragraph 4 of the B/C/S and also page 4 of
8 the English. The paragraph I'm interested in is the paragraph where it
10 "A Krajina-based unit known as Poskok also functioned in the RSK
11 as did the Red Berets. Members of this Poskok unit appear to have been
12 trained at the aforementioned Alfa centre and they were seasoned
14 You see that?
15 "Milos Opacic commanded the Poskok unit when I met them in late
16 1995 but members of this unit were eventually absorbed into the Red
17 Berets by 1996."
18 You see that?
19 A. I can't locate that paragraph, what does it start with? I'm
20 looking at the Serbian version.
21 MR. JORDASH: I think it should be page 6 of the Serbian and page
22 6 of the English, please.
23 Q. Can you see that?
24 A. Starting with the words "RSK and the Red Berets?"
25 Q. Yes. Sorry, not starting with the words RSK but starting with "a
1 Krajina-based unit known as Poskok..."
2 A. I can see the paragraph.
3 Q. The Poskok unit, as noted here, you say, were -- let me start
4 that again. In what way do you suggest the Poskok unit was absorbed into
5 the Red Berets by 1996? Can you explain how this occurred, if you know?
6 A. I'll tell you what I remember. When my part of the unit was at
7 location 4, the aforementioned unit Poskok arrived. We shared the same
8 camp, the same dormitories. We took meals together and they stayed there
9 with us for awhile.
10 Q. But they were operating as a separate unit; is that correct?
11 A. Specifically they never operated together with us only. At
12 location 3, two or three of our men came to us and one of them was a
13 personal instructor of mine. They later on followed us to location 5.
14 Q. The man Milos Opacic, did he ever join the Red Berets?
15 A. I remember him specifically from a conversation we had at
16 location 4. He showed me some pictures. There was something specific
17 about him in the sense that he liked listening to the Beethoven's 9th
18 when going into action. And at that moment in time, we shared location 4
19 with him.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Beethoven's 8th.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, however, I
22 cannot recall him being at location 5, but I do recall the other two or
23 three members of that unit.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Did Milos Opacic join the Red Berets at any time?
1 A. I'm not familiar with that, but I do know, as I said already,
2 that he was in the same camp at location 4 where we were at the same
4 Q. And you were at location 4 for how long, with Opacic?
5 A. I was at location 4 on two occasions, if I remember it correctly.
6 He was there when I was at location 4 for the first time. My part of the
7 unit spent a bit less than a month there, I believe.
8 Q. Let me try to shortcut this.
9 MR. JORDASH: Can we have on e-court, please, P539.
10 MS. MARCUS: Can I just ask to make sure it's not broadcast.
11 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, yes. Can we go to page 2. Could we also
12 have the B/C/S up on the screen for my client. Page 2.
13 Q. And the bit I'm interested in while the B/C/S is coming up is 959
14 where you make the comment:
15 "This is one of the Opacic brothers, he used to be a member of
16 the Poskok unit, but on this video he is a member of the Red Berets. His
17 brother was with me at location 4."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did you mean by "but on this video he is a member of the Red
21 A. According to my information they were from another unit, from the
22 Poskok unit. However, on this footage we see Mr. Opacic in a Red Beret
23 uniform, filed alongside some Red Beret veterans. I don't know him
24 personally, but as I've already said, I saw him brother at location 4.
25 Q. Thank you. So when you watched the video, am I correct that you
1 were surprised when you heard him described as a veteran of the special
2 unit of the state security because it was your experience that he was
3 none of the sort; is that correct?
4 A. Could you please reformulate your question. I failed to
6 Q. All right. From what you saw and heard in your time in the unit
7 Opacic was not a member of the Red Berets, he was a member of the Poskok
8 unit; correct?
9 A. I said that about his brother and not about the gentleman we see
10 in the still.
11 Q. Well, the gentleman in the still, you made a comment on the chart
12 expressing surprise that he was a Red Beret, is that correct, or he was
13 portrayed as a Red Beret in the Kula award ceremony?
14 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, the witness never said on the chart
15 anything about surprise.
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, I'm obviously putting an interpretation on
17 it, I'm asking the witness if he accepts that. I can reformulate it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps if the witness had already some
19 difficulties with your previous question and I -- if the witness would
20 not have expressed it, I might have said something about it. Could you
21 please try to clearly distinguish between facts and emotional experience.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. When you said, Mr. Witness, in the chart about Opacic brother, he
24 used to be a member of the Poskok unit but on this video, he is a member
25 of the Red Berets, you were expressing surprise because it was your
1 experience that Opacic was not a Red Beret; is that correct?
2 A. I wasn't surprised. I merely watched the footage and I heard the
3 officers introduce themselves to Slobodan Milosevic. This gentleman
4 said, Opacic, I forget the first name, and then it came to me that this
5 was Opacic's brother and now I see him in the Red Berets. When I
6 discussed this with Opacic, I believe he told me they were members of the
7 Poskok unit. That's all I know.
8 Q. I'll leave it at that. Yes, I'll leave it at that. Thank you.
9 Well, with one question. You had not heard or seen anything which
10 suggested that Opacic was a member of the Red Beret unit; is that
12 A. If you have Milos Opacic in mind, the person I was at location 4
13 with, at that time he was a Poskok member but the unit was in the same
14 camp where we were.
15 Q. Okay. We can leave it there. Thank you.
16 MR. JORDASH: Can we go back, please, to P523 on e-court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown.
18 MR. JORDASH: Not to be shown, Your Honour, thank you. Actually,
19 sorry, let me deal with something else. Please can I have on the screen
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I take it that you made a calculated
22 guess which document finally would end up under 540 which is in the range
23 of where the descriptions still are to be expected.
24 MR. JORDASH: I'm hoping.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Registrar reserved the numbers but is
1 still waiting.
2 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps the easiest way to do it is to go to 65 ter
3 5358, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That is the chart.
5 MR. JORDASH: It's the chart. 65 ter 5358.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not to be shown to the public.
7 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
8 Q. Looking, Mr. Witness, at the names you've identified here as
9 those that you recognise, would you agree with me that all of these named
10 persons you recognise received, from what you saw, professional training,
11 professional police training whilst at the school at location 1?
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, perhaps my colleague could clarify
13 what he is talking about in terms of all these named persons. Because
14 the witness talks about a lot of different people in the explanation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what I understand Mr. Jordash would like to
16 find out whether all these names on the list were with the witness at
17 that location, is that --
18 MR. JORDASH: Let me --
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you rephrase it so that everyone understands the
21 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps we should go into private session, if we
22 can so I can ask the question with freedom.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 5763-5765 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We adjourn for the day
16 and we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday the 16th of June, quarter past
17 2.00 in this same Courtroom II.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of
20 June, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.