1 Thursday, 17 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
7 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-69-T.
8 The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We move into private
10 session for a second.
11 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Ms. Radic. Before
25 you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you
1 make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,
2 and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by
3 Madam Usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the witness, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: ANNA MARIA RADIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Ms. Radic. Before,
10 Ms. Friedman, you start your examination-in-chief, the Chamber is
11 informed that a new version of the expert report is submitted where most
12 of pages -- or at least part of page 31 and 45 are stricken and all the
13 pages in between. The Chamber understands this to be that where the
14 major problem may have been in the unsourced description of military
15 historical events, that of course by choosing this way out, that
16 everything that is maybe related to that, that is observations about
17 population movement is then out as well.
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour. But for the extent to which it
19 appears in other parts of the report and as lay laid out in the various
20 tables next to the report which still documents movement of people, but
21 the description as you described in that section we will not be relying
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear that resolves at least a huge
24 problem the Chamber had with this report, that it gives a totally
25 unsourced description of all kind of facts with all kind of details where
1 one could wonder how, where those facts are taken from, and what in the
2 expertise of this witness would allow her to form an opinion about that
3 where she apparently not has observed it herself. May I take it that
4 this is the result of communication between Defence and Prosecution this
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Any remaining problems because -- or is this --
8 could we start not to say that you would agree with everything that
9 remains, Mr. Petrovic or Mr. Jordash, but as a starting point can we
10 proceed on the basis of the expert report as it is submitted now.
11 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a brief
13 observation to make. Part 13, which is less than a page has to do with
14 the population fleeing Vojvodina and Serbia, I don't think it is of any
15 relevance to this case and I see no reason for that part to be left in
16 the report. It's not a matter discussed in the indictment and although
17 it's a small part, that should be left out of the report in order to
18 speed things up even further.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider or not whether to accept that part.
20 In addition to that, Ms. Friedman, if I look at the fourth paragraph of
21 chapter 13, then I see that still some of methods of expulsion were
22 similar to those already described in Croatia from individual threats and
23 incidents in places with Croatian population to the murders of Croats in
24 the period 1991, 1995, which is similar to what we find in many of the
25 stricken pages. But we'll consider that further, Mr. Petrovic.
1 Ms. Radic, you may have understood that there has been some
2 discussion as to the sources of the knowledge of parts of your report
3 which seem not to be directly linked to your field of expertise, which
4 has resulted in taking out major parts of the report, especially those
5 parts where you describe in some details matters where it's totally
6 unclear from the report what the sources of your knowledge are and which
7 apparently are not directly linked to your field of expertise however, to
8 describe that because, although you are a trained sociologist as I do
9 understand, it has some -- the way in which you worked made you half
10 demographer as well, if I may say it in that way, but much of that
11 information falls outside of the scope both of the direct expert skills
12 of a sociologist or a demographer. Ms. Friedman, are you ready to
13 examine the witness?
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, I am, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first now be examined by Ms. Friedman.
16 Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution. Please proceed.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Radic, could you please state your full name
20 for the record.
21 A. Anna Maria Radic.
22 Q. And have you brought any papers with you to court today which you
23 may wish to refer to during your testimony?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. And did you prepare these paper and notes yourself in preparation
1 for the testimony today, or did you gather them yourself?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, with the Chamber's leave I would ask
4 that Ms. Radic be permitted to consult these reports and notes if
5 necessary during her testimony.
6 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, may before Your Honours rule on this,
7 we clarify exactly what these notes are. My learned friend asked the
8 question whether the witness had prepared the notes for the testimony or
9 gathered them for the testimony, and the two may well be quite different.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I suggest the following: Whenever you consider
11 it necessary to consult your notes, we'd like you to inform us about it
12 and also what the notes are about so that we would know that not in
13 general and not spend a lot of time on that, but on each specific
14 occasion where apparently there's a need to go back to your notes, that
15 we -- that you inform us about this and that we know what these notes
16 are, because, Mr. Jordash, it may be far clearer in many circumstances to
17 know what the question is and then sometimes it will be self-explanatory
18 that you would need notes, for example, if you ask about numbers, you
19 would not have learned it by heart and then the notes will be about the
20 numbers. Whereas in other circumstances it may need a totally different
21 clarification. Yes? So please inform us whenever you want to consult
22 your notes, Ms. Radic.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
25 Q. Ms. Radic, is your current position as the head of the department
1 for areas of special state concern in the ministry of regional
2 development, forestry and water management?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And is it true that this department was formerly called the
5 administration for the return of displaced persons and refugees and that
6 this former entity was the legal successor of the office for displaced
7 person and refugees?
8 A. Yes, that is correct. And it was also called administration.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, the follow-up of the several
10 institutions, I think I've read it eight, nine, or ten times in the
11 report, so it's really repetitious to what is written down already.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN:
14 Q. And the Office of Displaced Persons and Refugees, was it called
15 the ODPR?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. So when did you begin working for the ODPR?
18 A. From the very beginning in 1994.
19 Q. And does that mean that notwithstanding all the change, that's
20 the office, the ODPR, that you've been working at since 1994?
21 A. Not at the same position, but it was with the administration
22 throughout, yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: And could I ask the Court Officer to please call
25 up 65 ter 5364, the curriculum vitae of the witness.
1 Q. Ms. Radic, do you recognise this as a true and accurate copy of
2 your CV?
3 A. Yes. However, my current position is wrong. Head of
4 administration for areas of special state concern and not for areas
5 outside of the areas of special state concern. So I am head of
6 administration for the areas of special state concern, that is the
7 correct title.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: And I would ask that this exhibit, 65 ter 5364, be
10 tendered into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Objections? Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P549, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P549 is admitted into evidence.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN:
15 Q. Now, I would like to ask briefly about your first position in the
16 ODPR as spokesperson and public relations officer between 1994 and 2000,
17 and did this position involve preparing any reports?
18 A. Yes, it did. That is why I was employed by the then Office for
19 Displaced Persons and Refugees. I worked in public relations, which
20 included preparing public reports and other types of reports pertaining
21 to displaced persons and refugees who were either accommodated or taken
22 in by Croatia
23 Q. And did you ever write reports in conjunction with other
25 A. Yes, I did, with governmental organisations, NGOs, and some
1 international organisations such as the UNHCR. We had very close
2 co-operation with them for three years.
3 Q. And in your various positions until today, have you had occasion
4 to use the database of displaced persons, refugees, and returnees that
5 you discuss in your report?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. And how long have you been working with this database?
8 A. Ever since it came into being, and in the forum as it stands
9 today, that was since 1994.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: Could the Court Officer now call up Ms. Radic's
11 expert report which is 65 ter 5363. Sorry, 5 -- yes, 5363.
12 Q. While it's being loaded in the B/C/S, can you say, Ms. Radic,
13 whether you recognise this as your report?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I will continue presuming that it will come on the screen
16 shortly. Now, in your report you've described the registration process
17 of displaced persons and refugees in great detail. So would it be fair
18 to characterise it as beginning as an ad hoc process as soon as the first
19 displaced people began arriving in 1991 into new areas and then involving
20 four separate registrations which were conducted by the ODPR?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At page 11 in the B/C/S and 16 to 17 in the English, you describe
23 the four official registrations as a registration of displaced persons in
24 April 1992; a registration in March 1993 of refugees from
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina; a third registration in June 2004 of both category,
1 displaced persons and refugees; and a fourth in 1997 which included
2 displaced persons, refugees, and returnees; is that a fair
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Now, again, all of this information is contained in your report,
6 so I will just ask you for some specific clarifications. The first thing
7 I would like to ask is whether when you use the term "expelled persons"
8 in your report and then when it appears in the tables, if this is a
9 reference to people who were displaced internally within the Republic of
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. And I now want to ask you just a few questions about the Office
13 of the UN High Commission for Refugees, the UNHCR in Croatia. In your
14 report at page 2 in the English and the B/C/S, you mention that the UNHCR
15 office in Croatia
16 Office for Expelled Persons and refugees, the ODPR, and that the two
17 offices were located in the same premises. My question is whether the
18 UNHCR was involved at all in the work of the ODPR?
19 A. Yes, at the beginning. Our co-operation existed since the very
20 beginning of the process. Naturally, in Croatia there was no expertise,
21 no expert knowledge required to take in and accommodate any displaced
22 persons. We did have a number of organisations which took part, but, for
23 example, in terms of registering IDPs, this type of expert knowledge was
24 key and it came precisely from the UNHCR.
25 Q. Did they provide any -- you talk about their expert knowledge,
1 was it about the registration process?
2 A. Yes, the registration process, but one also needs to keep in mind
3 that they assisted directly in terms of providing humanitarian assistance
4 arriving in Croatia
5 Croatian population had fled their homes. It took a lot of organisation
6 and knowledge and the UNHCR was of great assistance. It all took place,
7 of course, in very close co-operation with our office at the time.
8 Q. Did they also provide any recommendations as to what to put in
9 the forms that you were using to register people?
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. And was their advice implemented in subsequent versions of the
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Now, section 10 of your report discusses preliminary data from
15 1991 up until the time of the first formal registration in April 1992.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Would the Court Usher please display page 17 in
17 B/C/S and 26 in English.
18 Q. Now, I'm looking at the second paragraph in English, and it says
19 that the date, in relation to the first records of expulsions record the
20 date as the 1st August of 1994; is that correct?
21 A. Of 1991, yes.
22 Q. Yes, that's right.
23 A. This must have been a typographical error.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: So I wanted to note that typographical error for
25 the record and also that it appears on page 34 in the English, the second
1 paragraph and page 22 in the B/C/S, the fourth full paragraph as well. I
2 would now like to look at table 1, which is at pages 31 to 32 in B/C/S,
3 and 48 to 49 in English. And I would ask the Court Officer to please
4 pull up those pages.
5 Q. This is an analysis of the population based on the 1991 census.
6 And Ms. Radic, are the municipalities that are named here, the
7 municipalities as they existed at the time in 1991 or as they exist
9 A. These municipalities represent the municipalities as they exist
10 today as well as the counties.
11 Q. Okay. And what does it mean when certain municipalities are
12 highlighted in yellow?
13 A. The municipalities in yellow were those which were not completely
14 out of reach of Croatian authorities. They were only partially occupied
15 in the period between 1991 and 1995.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: And would the Court Officer please call up 65 ter
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could you tell us, Ms. Radic, what
20 is the difference between group 1 and group 2?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we have all the areas affected
22 by war in 1991. As of 1996, we refer to them as areas of special state
23 concern when the law on areas of special state concern was passed. It
24 encompassed all of the areas affected by the war and divided into two
25 groups. The first group were those settlements or those areas which had
1 municipal seats which were not further than 15 kilometres from the state
2 border and having less than 5.000 population, including all of the areas
3 of the Croatian Danubian regions; the second group includes all other
4 towns, settlements, and municipalities which between 1991 and 1995 were
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, and we will return to the report later
8 so I will tender it later, but for now I would like to call up 5368.
9 Q. Ms. Radic, were you asked to prepare a table which reflects, to
10 the extent that you are able to determine, which municipality in 1991 and
11 which current municipality and county certain places are found in?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And is this the table you prepared?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And the document contains mostly place names, but the headings
16 are in English. Do you understand the English language?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Have you reviewed the table before you?
19 A. I have.
20 Q. And is it your signature on the bottom of the page?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. I would now like to look at, well, for example, the first place
23 name and there's -- it says Dubica. And in brackets, it says
24 Hrvatska Dubica, what do these parentheses indicate?
25 A. I presume that this is Hrvatska Dubica and not Dubica because
1 such a place does not exist in Croatia
2 its mentioned in a group of other places in the area of Banovina, and
3 because of that I presume that's Hrvatska Dubica.
4 Q. When you say "mentioned" are you referring to a mention in the
5 Prosecution's indictment in this case?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And some of the rows have been left blank, what does that mean?
8 A. Out of those names listed here, I could not determine which
9 places they referred to. For instance, Cerovljani, there are several
10 places named Cerovljani. They also have a prefix, and addendum. I could
11 not determine such a short time which place this would refer to.
12 However, in our database, there are many settlements, all the settlements
13 in the Republic of Croatia
14 I could not determine whether it's a geographical toponym or a place name
15 or a name of a settlement. Vukovic as well, it could be a hamlet, part
16 of a bigger village and not a separate entity.
17 Q. Thank you. So for the place names that you were able to indicate
18 the former municipality and current municipality, the information on this
19 table is correct to the best of your knowledge?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, this table was prepared to assist
22 the Chamber in cross-referencing the municipalities in the charts that
23 have been provided with the locations in the indictment. And also on the
24 second page of the table, we've included the locations that are mentioned
25 in the relevant adjudicated facts. I've provided copy of these tables to
1 the Defence yesterday and I tender them at this time as a Prosecution
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P550, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P550 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. In the annexes to your report, tables 2, 3, and 4 all discuss
8 data collected in March 1992 before the official registrations began.
9 Table 3, for example, provides statistics on displaced persons and
10 refugees from the 20th of March, 1992, and it contains five separate
11 tables. Now, table 4 is a similar report, it contains the same types of
12 tables and it is from just one week later, March 27th, 1992. So my
13 question to you, Ms. Radic, is if you can explain why you've included
14 both of these tables in your report?
15 A. Those are the original tables dating from the relevant time, I
16 don't have them before me so that I could check. But they differ in one
17 thing, one table is organised by the area where people were accommodated,
18 the other areas in Croatia
19 think, organised by the place of origin of those displaced persons. I do
20 believe that this is the main difference between the tables but that's
21 what I presume because I don't have them before me so that I could verify
23 Q. Yes, that's -- do you actually have a hard copy before you which
24 would assist, and if not we'll call it up on the screen. Do you have the
25 tables to your report?
1 A. I don't think that I've got those tables here. If you could
2 please show them on the screen so I can tell you precisely.
3 Q. Yes.
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: If we could turn to page 33 in the B/C/S and 50 in
5 the English.
6 Q. And while that's loading, and just to clarify, you are right that
7 there are separate tables based on the municipality of origin and the
8 place of accommodation. We are looking at 65 ter 5363. And both reports
9 from the 20th of March, 1992 and the 27th of March, 1992
10 different tables within them, tables that are based on the regional
11 centre where the refugees registered and tables that are based on their
12 place of origin, but there are two separate reports, one from the 20th of
13 March and one from the 27th of March, and can you clarify why both are
14 included and if there is any difference?
15 A. I think the difference that I explained just a while ago is the
16 only difference. I am afraid that this is too small for me to see
17 anything. The number of displaced persons. If you could please zoom in
18 both pages, if possible, please. The table from the 20th of March is
19 organised by the place of accommodation of those displaced persons in
21 centres where those people were registered. So this would be one table
22 dated the 20th of March. It contains data on persons registered in
24 countries in accordance with reports that we used to receive from either
25 the UNHCR or from those third countries.
1 Q. Thank you. And so this is table 2, and table 3 relates to the
2 20th of March as well. Table 4 is from the 27th of March. And how did
3 your office obtain the information from the 27th of March?
4 A. In the same manner. Displaced persons were registered when they
5 arrived at the local social welfare centre. The ODPR had just been
6 established and had not still established a network of field officers so
7 what was used was the present network of social welfare centres. There
8 was one in each municipality in Croatia
9 when they arrived and sent their reports, which they prepared on a weekly
10 basis, to the office in Zagreb
11 In the meantime, regional offices for displaced persons and
12 refugees had started being established with welfare centres, and they
13 started to collate individual reports that they received from welfare
14 offices and consolidated them and sent them to the ODPR in Zagreb
15 then manually collated them and keyed them into touch tables and reports
16 as you see.
17 Q. Thank you. I now want to --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question: One of the things that I
19 missed in your report is a copy of the registration form. It's quite
20 common doing this kind of registration that you add a copy of what was
21 registered because we find some of it in the report, but is there any
22 copy available of that registration form so that we know what was asked
23 from those who reported themselves?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I do have on my person forms
25 for registration from -- dating from 1991 and instructions how to fill in
1 the form and samples of the forms used in 1994 and 1997.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Friedman, I would suggest that copies are
3 made from those forms because we are now looking at the results of the
4 registration, but we do not know exactly what was asked and what was not
5 asked. And I'm specifically also paying attention to this because as you
6 may have noticed, there was some concern about what comes from where.
7 For example, if sometimes certain language is used, one wonders whether
8 any questions were put to those who registered in relation to what is
9 assumed or established to be the case. So therefore, I would suggest
10 that during the first break you provide the forms and the instructions
11 and that they will be copied, you'll get back the originals, so that the
12 parties know what exactly you registered and what you asked from those
13 persons who were registering. Yes. Please proceed.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I can inform you that pursuant to a
15 request from the Defence, we did ask Ms. Radic to provide some forms and
16 she has provided several to us. It was still not something I was going
17 to tender in my examination-in-chief but it's been provided to the
18 Defence and we have it in e-court. We can return to it later.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I am a bit surprised that you left it to the Defence
20 because this is the kind of basic information you need to interpret the
21 outcome. So therefore, I think it would have assisted the Chamber if you
22 would not have waited for the Defence to bring it up, but to inform the
23 Chamber as completely as possible. But we'll see those forms after the
24 break. Please proceed.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN:
1 Q. Now, I have a few clarifications about the information contained
2 in your database. What is the earliest information that's contained
4 A. The data that we have today in the database dates from 1994, as
5 I've already explained. The data in the first statistics reports were
6 collated manually. They were not based on the forms that were later to
7 be used in registration. In 1992 in April, the first registration of
8 displaced persons was made, but the problem with the data was at the time
9 not all data could be introduced into a single database. And quite a lot
10 of data was missing. For that reason, new registration was done in 1994
11 and from that point onwards, those data are used as data on displaced
12 persons and refugees by being updated daily. So persons registering or
13 taken out of the database, changes in their personal statistics, changes
14 in place of accommodation or type of accommodation, any changes that may
15 affect that population are updated.
16 Q. So since the information begins in 1994, does that mean that all
17 the data from people who had left their homes in 1991 but had returned
18 before 1994 is not included in the database?
19 A. Yes, that's correct. This is not to be found in that database.
20 Q. And other than tables 1 through 5, which contain statistical data
21 from before the 1994 registration, was the database we are discussing the
22 one that was used to prepare the remainder of the tables?
23 A. I am afraid you'll have to repeat which table is the same. I did
24 not quite get the question.
25 Q. The tables that are from 1992 were obviously not prepared from
1 your database, and my question was whether the rest of the tables which
2 you've included in your report were prepared based on this database?
3 A. Yes. All the other tables are derived from the database, apart
4 from the first one which is based on the population census.
5 Q. So those tables do not include people who had returned home
6 before 1994?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. I would now like to discuss tables 7 and 8 in your report.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: And if we could turn to table 7 which is at page
10 49 of the B/C/S and 75 of the English. It would be sufficient, I think,
11 to show it in one language as the important information is either
12 numerical or place names.
13 Q. Now, these tables set out the numbers of displaced persons per
14 municipality, but they provide different dates to show the numbers of
15 displaced persons as of certain time periods.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: I am sorry, let me just check the correct page
17 number. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And table 8 is simply an expanded version of this table; is that
20 A. That's correct. It contains individual municipalities and towns
21 listed therein, whereas this table is organised in counties, so
22 everything is broken down at the level of county.
23 Q. And we can see how the different dates are set out and show
24 different waves of registration.
25 Ms. Radic, when was this table prepared?
1 A. This table was prepared later on in 2002, for the first time in
2 2000 and later on in 2002. And this particular dates from 2002.
3 Q. And who prepared the table?
4 A. My administration for displaced persons and refugees on the basis
5 of our database.
6 Q. And what was the purpose for which it was prepared?
7 A. The purpose was to see the number of displaced persons in
8 different periods and which can be considered peak times in terms of
9 expulsions and this is why those dates were chosen, to show what we
10 called waves of displaced persons.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: And I would now like to look at table 9, which is
13 the national structure of displaced persons, and it's at page 80 in
14 English or 64 in B/C/S.
15 Q. Is this organised by county or municipality, and was it -- sorry,
16 was it organised by the original counties or municipalities or the
17 current ones?
18 A. This table is organised by present or current counties, but it's
19 based on original data.
20 Q. And can it be compared then to table 1, the 1991 census analysis?
21 A. Yes. Yes, it can be compared because the first analysis was
22 drafted in this way.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: Okay. And I wanted to note because of the
24 relevance to the case, for example, the greatest number of displaced
25 Croats is found in the Osijek Baranja county, that's 31.484; and the
1 second largest displaced minority there is the Hungarians, and that is
2 3.581, and that's also the greatest number of displaced ethnic
3 Hungarians. And a brief observation about the 1991 census and table 9
4 and to show how they can be cross-referenced, in the 1991 census we also
5 can find Osijek Baranja county and that it originally had 52.080
6 non-Serbs. And according to this table, table 9, the number of non-Serbs
7 who were displaced is 36.079.
8 And I now would tender this witness's expert report along with
9 the attached tables which is 65 ter 5363 into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I've seen that the uploaded report is already the
11 one where the relevant pages are stricken out. Any objections against?
12 Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P551, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P551 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. And I have just one
16 exhibit to show to the witness and I would ask 65 ter 2966 be placed on
17 the monitor.
18 Q. This is image files from a PowerPoint presentation about data on
19 displaced persons in Croatia
20 look at this set of charts in the last few days?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. And did you recognise the data that was contained therein?
23 A. It goes to data from our database which can be seen in the tables
24 that we saw yesterday on the basis of the 1994 and 1997 registration
1 Q. Okay. In fact, it says on the title here that the source of the
2 information is the office of displaced persons, returnees, and refugees,
3 and I take it then that you can confirm that's the case?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. That's correct.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would ask to turn to page 6 of this exhibit.
6 The purpose being for Your Honours to see it provides a different visual
7 presentation of the same data and can prove useful. And for that reason
8 and since its based on the data contained in this witness's report, I
9 would tender it as the next Prosecution exhibit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to understand this. Displaced
11 persons per county, is that where they used to have their residence
12 before they were displaced? Is that how we have to understand this
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are places of residence
15 before these people in 1991 before they were expelled.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before they were displaced, I take it. You
17 often used the word expelled which needs a factual basis which you may
18 think does exist, I'm not saying it does not exist, but it's not
19 substantiated in your report, and to the extent an effort has been made
20 to substantiated it in the report, those portions are now taken out
21 because the sources are unclear, but most important that this is where
22 they used to live before they were displaced. Thank you. Any
23 objections? Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P552, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P552 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
1 Ms. Friedman.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honours, that concludes my
3 questions at this time. I have just one more matter with is the relevant
4 adjudicated facts that you ask that we identify.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: And they are from two decisions. The first is the
7 decision on the Prosecution's motion for judicial notice of adjudicated
8 facts that's dated 25th of November, 2009. And the facts are 391, 392 --
9 actually the whole way through 401. And the second is the decision on
10 the second Prosecution motion for judicial notice of adjudicated facts
11 dated 28th January 2010. And that's facts number 207 through 213.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's now on the record. If you have
13 no further questions, again I'm asking Mr. Petrovic whether you will be
14 the first or whether it will be Mr. Jordash. You become more and more
15 aware of what it means to be the first or the second. Mr. Petrovic, it
16 will be you. Ms. Radic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic.
17 Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam Radic. Could you please
21 first explain -- you've explained where you are employed currently. Do I
22 understand it correctly that you are employed within the ministry of the
23 government of the Republic of Croatia
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is there something which is defined as the official policy of the
1 Republic of Croatia
2 there a document which lays down Croatian governments, official policy,
3 and guide-lines in respect of this category?
4 A. I don't believe that there is a single document which defines
5 official policy of a government, is defined through laws which govern
6 certain areas. This includes policies towards displaced persons and
7 refugees. They are defined by law.
8 Q. Which law defines the categories of persons which are the subject
9 matter of your report? Please do not overlap, please make a break
10 between my question and your answer.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Radic, since you are speaking the same
12 language, could you please make a small pause between question and
13 answer, otherwise the interpreters will have difficulties in following
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you respond now.
17 A. The basic law defining this issue is the law on displaced persons
18 and refugees from 1993. Before that in 1991 there had been a decree on
19 DPs and refugees referred to in this report as well.
20 Q. In the law you are referring to, how is the category of displaced
21 person defined, in the sense you use it in your report?
22 A. A displaced person is defined as a person hailing from a
23 war-affected area of the Republic of Croatia
24 or individually, fled to another area of the Republic of Croatia
25 a refugee, it is a person who fled from a war-affected area in Croatia
1 either individually or in an organised way through the then civilian
2 assistance staffs or through the centre for social welfare, who
3 eventually went abroad. That is to say outside the borders of Croatia
4 Q. The law you are referring to defining the two categories, does it
5 refer to any causes, any reasons due to which one would be assigned the
6 status of a displaced person or refugee?
7 A. There is one basic reason that someone came from a war-affected
8 area, and such areas were declared by the Republic of Croatia
9 delegated this authority later on to the ODPR.
10 Q. So all types of reasons pertaining to the war and the situation
11 as it existed in those parts of Croatia
12 assigned the status of a displaced person; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If I understand correctly then, a displaced person can also be
15 somebody who between 1991 and 1995, because of better conditions of life
16 elsewhere left, say, Petrinja for Zagreb
17 displaced person under the definition?
18 A. Well, the reasons may be different, but I don't know what better
19 life conditions you are referring to. It's unclear.
20 Q. Can we agree that in 1993, it was far easier to reside in Zagreb
21 than Petrinja, for example?
22 A. What year?
23 Q. Let's say 1993?
24 A. I can't know that. And at that time, be it Petrinja or Zagreb
25 one would have a very difficult situation stating that these conditions
1 were good anywhere. The whole country was affected by the war and there
2 was a shortage of everything. No one left their home because at that
3 time perhaps they could have fared better.
4 Q. Well, this brings up a number of questions then. First of all,
5 how can you know what reasons or what motives someone had to leave
6 Petrinja for Zagreb
7 A. Between 1992, after the Sarajevo
8 other parts of Croatia
9 UNPROFOR in order to arrive at the free territory in Croatia. These
10 people were all Croats, basically, who were no longer able to remain
11 where they had been. They were expelled. If someone belonged to a
12 certain ethnic group, even if you tried to paint it through the prism of
13 conditions of life, one cannot look at it that way. It's not a mere
14 coincidence. There's far too many of the people of a single ethnic
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, have I understood your point well that
17 you want to draw the attention of the Chamber to the fact that the
18 registration did not provide the motives and that you pointed at the
19 possibility that people may have decided for reasons unknown to move to
20 the place where they actually then were registered. Is that what you
21 wanted to draw our attention to?
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That point is made. Please proceed.
24 MS. MARCUS: It seems that the Court Reporter has lost LiveNote,
25 Your Honour.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this may even be a
2 good time for the break. It would have been anyway in two minutes' time,
3 perhaps that's the solution.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, everything we are now saying is not recorded,
5 but everything seems to function again. Perhaps I put on the record what
6 I just said to you, Mr. Petrovic, that whether I had understood you well
7 that the point you would like to make is that the motives of those who
8 moved to the place where they finally registered were not recorded and
9 therefore unknown and may have been different from what is -- may be
10 assumed that they were expelled or they had to leave from these
11 war-affected areas and that the motives may have been different. That
12 point is understood and then I invited you to proceed. Then when the
13 system was not functioning well, you suggested we take a break.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break, as far as timing is
16 concerned, Mr. Petrovic, could you inform us as to how much time you
17 would think you would need?
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, an hour at the most.
19 It is likely that I will need even less because your clarification made a
20 number of things redundant in terms of examination and it is possible
21 that I will needless than an hour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my clarification was exclusively on whether I
23 understood the point you would like to make well, so I didn't clarify any
24 factual matter, but what you, of course, when putting questions to an
25 expert witness to some extent it's also for a Chamber to understand what
1 kind of matter you would like to raise in those questions and most --
2 what I'd clarified is simply that what I understood to be the matter you
3 wanted to raise and that was clear. Is that -- I didn't clarify anything
4 else apart from our understanding of what we thought you were doing.
5 Mr. Jordash, any.
6 MR. JORDASH: 30 minutes at most, I think.
7 JUDGE ORIE: 30 minutes at most, which gives us a good
8 expectation that we would finish the testimony of this witness today. I
9 have to announce to the parties that there's a fair chance that for
10 urgent reasons, I will not be able to sit during the remainder of this
11 day, and on the basis of the brief discussions I had with my colleagues,
12 I would expect that they will decide that it would be in the interest of
13 justice to continue to hear the case in my absence, but you will learn
14 about this all after the break.
15 We take a break and we'll resume at 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
18 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] The court is back in session for
19 the transcript, please note down that this Chamber will hear this case
20 according to Rule 15 bis in the absence of Judge Orie.
21 Mr. Petrovic, you have the floor.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could we
23 please have 1D00268 in e-court.
24 Q. Ms. Radic, have a look at the document, please, and tell us what
25 it is.
1 A. This is a form used to register displaced persons, refugees, and
2 returnees. It was used in 1994.
3 Q. Let's look at the document. In it is there anywhere a box in
4 which the reasons for becoming a displaced person or refugee should be
6 A. On this document, there is no mention made of any reasons, but
7 the place of residence of the person is clearly established.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I seek to tender this
10 document as Defence exhibit.
11 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Any objections?
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: No objections, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. This document will be
14 given a number, please, Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D74, Your Honours.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Next
17 could we please have 65 ter document 1D00269.
18 Q. Ms. Radic, tell us what sort of document is the one on the
19 left-hand side of the screen?
20 A. This is a registration form used for displaced persons used
21 during pre-registration in 1997 concerning the area of the Croatian
22 Danubian region, including two counties, Vukovar Srijem and
24 Q. Ms. Radic, thank you. How about this document used in 1997, is
25 there such a box which would tell us anything about the reasons for
1 becoming a displaced person or a refugee?
2 A. There's no direct query about any reasons or motives, but again
3 we have the place of residence clearly established.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to seek
5 to tender this document into evidence as well.
6 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Any objections?
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Jordash?
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, just to indicate to the Court that the
10 translation on the right is a Defence translation, we received a document
11 only two days ago, so perhaps it could be MFI'd until an official
12 translation can be provided.
13 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you, I also had the feeling
14 that it was not a final translation.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I agree with my learned
16 friend's suggestion that it be marked for identification pending
18 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. This document will be
19 admitted into evidence with an MFI number. Registrar, please.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D75 marked for
21 identification, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Before you proceed, as for the
23 previous document, was that an official translation or was it an
24 unrevised or last-minute translation?
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: The first was an official translation.
1 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Mr. Petrovic.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Ms. Radic, the process of registration of displaced persons as
5 part of your ministry was carried out based on the forms we have just
6 seen; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Such filled-out forms provide no details about the reasons why
9 somebody was expelled from their previous address?
10 A. If you put it that way, it is correct, but I told you what the
11 legal definition of a displaced person was.
12 Q. Please only answer my question. Based on what one can see in the
13 forms, there is no piece of information referring to any reasons; is that
14 so or is it not so?
15 A. There is no particular question referring to any reasons, but
16 there is a place of residence required, and per se it is the reason.
17 Q. Thank you. Based on what were you able to conclude anything
18 about the reasons for someone to leave place 1 and go to place 2? Do you
19 have any factual basis to draw any conclusions in that regard?
20 A. Not looking only at the registration form, but there are other
21 documents testifying to that.
22 Q. Thank you. So your register is based solely on the data provided
23 by these -- or provided in these forms?
24 A. Our database does not only contain personal information, it also
25 contains information about the areas affected by the war.
1 Q. Ms. Radic, you were registering people. Did you register them as
2 areas or individuals?
3 A. We registered them as individuals, but the basic element to
4 define their status was the area they had fled from, their place of
5 residence so we needed an additional database, a separate database for
7 Q. So if there was somebody who had resided in Republika Srpska
8 Krajina and the information testifying to the fact that that person no
9 longer resides there, save for that information, you have nothing else,
10 do you?
11 A. We also had --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We only had this information. We
14 did not have personal information about the reason they left.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. That's all I wanted to hear. So it was all based on your
17 impressions, it was not based on any factual bases that you arrived at by
18 registering these displaced persons and refugees?
19 A. That is not true.
20 Q. Do you have any other sources of information confirming why
21 someone was expelled? If so, please share them with us.
22 A. As stated already in the report, and you should have read it
23 yourself, the decree on displaced persons and refugees in 1991 defined a
24 person as such as leaving a war-affected area. Such areas were
25 proclaimed by the government of the Republic of Croatia
1 list in existence about such war-affect areas.
2 Q. If I understand you well, the government of Croatia made a list
3 of areas, somebody had their place of residence in those areas and
4 automatically they became displaced persons?
5 A. That person needed to prove they originated from that area and
6 then they could be accorded displaced person status and provided with a
7 displaced person card and this was all checked when they were registered.
8 Q. And whether they left because they no longer liked being there or
9 for any other reason, that's something you don't know about?
10 A. It was a demographic phenomenon. If there is an area in a state
11 basically deserted of all non-Serb population, that tells you something.
12 That's why we included census data from 1991 as well as lists of
13 displaced persons from those same areas.
14 Q. Thank you very much. That is clear. In your report concerning
15 the number of displaced persons, you also included the population from
16 the so-called border-free areas of the Republic of Croatia
17 you tell apart those displaced persons who were from the border areas
18 from those who were not? And how could you say how many of them came
19 from such border areas which were controlled by Zagreb authorities as
20 opposed to those in the RSK?
21 A. If you were familiar with any UN resolutions, such areas which
22 were outside the constitutional system of Croatia between 1995, or in the
23 case of the Danubian region until 1998 where UNPROFOR was, the so-called
24 UNPA areas were established controlled by UNPROFOR. There were clear
25 demarcation lines in existence and those areas comprised four UNPA areas
1 and pink zones. Such areas exist. They are clearly delineated, one
2 settlement at that time.
3 Q. Maybe my question was unclear or maybe you misunderstood me. Out
4 of all the figures that you present in your report, what is the number of
5 those who are in government-controlled territory in the marginal or
6 border areas, and how many are those who were not from those areas? Do
7 you distinguish between those two categories of people?
8 A. Report enumerates 220.000 people from such areas, a smaller
9 number of them are from the border areas. If we were to break down this
10 figure, you could get to the number. For instance, the case of Novska
11 which before the war used to have 11.000 inhabitants, and is represented
12 marginally in the report because just a small portion of the Novska were
13 occupied during the war, two or three villages from within the area of
14 the municipality. What registration encompassed under those persons who
15 were from those villages or settlements.
16 Q. Let's take a look at page 11 in your report in the B/C/S. I'll
17 try to find the English equivalent. Page 17 in English. The first full
18 paragraph in English it is stated herein as follows: The very first
19 precise data -- if my learned friend could give me the exhibit number for
20 the expert report, I apologise, I have not jotted it down. The witness's
21 expert report?
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: P551.
23 MR. PETROVIC: 551, yes, thank you. [Interpretation] So it would
24 be P551, page 17 in English and 11 in Serbian, or rather, Croatian.
25 Q. I'm going to read it out to you, maybe you can find that. Are
1 you looking at the report or something else? Could you please turn to
2 page 11.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I quote:
5 "247.278 expelled persons were issued with personal
6 expelled-persons card. The aforementioned number of expelled person
7 includes the population from the bordering free territory of the Republic
8 of Croatia
9 settlements and the towns next to the separation line."
10 Out of this figure, how many were from the border line areas?
11 A. 30.000, approximately 30.000, and this is the reason why they
12 have not been included in the statistics, in the report. Therein you can
13 find only persons, who had place of residence in the settlements who
14 were -- which were outside of the constitutional order of the Republic of
16 those people, or, most of those 30.000 returned to their homes between
17 1992 and 1995 on the basis of decisions of the then ODPR that certain
18 areas are no longer -- were affected.
19 Q. You are not answering my question. I've asked you about the
20 figure --
21 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] It may be very interesting but we
22 are missing translation.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
24 Q. My question to you, Madam Radic, is the figure. Do you know the
25 exact number, you said approximately 30.000, you don't know then?
1 A. You take the figure of 220.000 people from the occupied areas and
2 you can see them in the tables in the other reports. Maybe table number
3 7, if I'm not mistaken, 8, 9. Those figures are contained therein, very
5 Q. Fine, thank you. Now, on the same page, the next paragraph or
6 two paragraphs down, the number of -- the exact number of persons who
7 fled abroad was difficult to ascertain. How did you make those estimates
8 of those refugees abroad?
9 A. On the basis of data from the UNHCR and on the basis of reports
10 of those countries which accommodated those refugees, the same method is
11 used by the UNHCR on the basis of the official data of those countries
12 housing the refugees.
13 Q. For instance, the UNHCR would give you an approximate figure,
14 30.000 or 50.000 or so, or do they give you precise data?
15 A. Well, this depends on the country providing information. Some
16 countries gave precise information, and some did not possess such
18 Q. Who does the estimate, the final estimate of the number of those
19 refugees who left Croatia
20 A. These are the data from the UNHCR. There is a bulletin or
21 information notes from the UNHCR which you can consult. It used to be
22 published at the time. And therein you can see the figures which are
23 contained in my report.
24 Q. Maybe I failed to read thoroughly your analysis, but I failed to
25 see that you make reference to it.
1 A. You've got UNHCR data and the tables show clearly that some of
2 the data have been taken from the UNHCR.
3 Q. Is there a reference in your expert reports mentioning the UNHCR?
4 Don't you go telling me to consult this or that, is there a place in your
5 report where you make reference to the UNHCR or should I take your word
6 for it?
7 A. There's no reference to information note of the UNHCR but I do
8 mention some data some from UNHCR.
9 Q. Could you please specify, pin-point where this is?
10 A. I believe tables 2, 3, maybe some others, I don't have them
11 before me to check.
12 Q. I'm not asking you generally about data, I'm asking you about
13 this estimate in the paragraph that I highlighted. You have your report
14 before you, could you please indicate where I can find those -- this data
15 in your tables?
16 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Ms. Friedman.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honour, we heard from the witness earlier
18 that she doesn't have the tables before her. She has her report but not
19 the tables. I do have an extra copy, perhaps I could hand that to her so
20 that she can have it if she needs to consult it.
21 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This seems to be a very good idea,
23 I would like you to make a pause between your question and the
24 answer of the witness so that the interpreters can translate what is
25 being said in the courtroom.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you can see in table 3, the
3 report on the number of registered DPs and refugees from the ODPR of the
4 government of Croatia
5 registered in other republics of former Yugoslavia, pursuant to the data
6 coming from the UNHCR, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Madam Radic, I see that. But when an experts report is being
9 prepared, you must make a reference to that. You cannot just say UNHCR,
10 they've got millions of pages of material, how can I find what I'm
11 looking for when there's no reference?
12 A. Well, these are the official data from that time. If you do not
13 trust the data contained herein, you could really go to the UNHCR's web
14 page. They are quite transparent. All the reports are archived on their
15 web pages. You can double-check, if you like.
16 Q. Madam Radic, why you did not make the reference of that report,
17 this would be a minimum, when we prepare a report which pretends to be an
18 expert report?
19 A. Sir, I'm discussing these table which are the original tables
20 from that period dating from 1992. You cannot expect somebody who was
21 busy trying to find the food and accommodation for those people back in
22 1992 to think about referencing each piece of information when drawing
23 the tables and quoting the sources.
24 Q. Madam Radic, I did not expect this to happen in 1992, but I did
25 in 2008 because, if I'm not mistaken, this report was drafted in 2008 but
1 you did not include the references?
2 A. I did not include the references because I was not advised that I
3 should reference everything that I wrote in my report. And the document
4 we are discussing is the original document from 1992.
5 Q. Madam Radic, I read your reports carefully and I found a total of
6 five references or a grand total -- and a grand total of four out of
7 those five reference laws and nothing else, so there is not a single
8 footnote explaining this can be found in this or that document. Is this
9 your methodological approach or simply sloppiness?
10 A. No, this is not a mission [as interpreted], sir. Data from the
11 ODPR of the Republic of Croatia
12 the Republic of Croatia
13 reference for all other documents, so -- and our work is based on the law
14 and this is why I referenced laws and nothing else.
15 Q. Madam Radic, where can I find the sources of all this? I could
16 address my request to the government of the Republic of Croatia
17 the only way?
18 A. Yes, you would address your requests to this administration which
19 is the legal successor of the ODPR and you would be given the data
20 contained herein from our database. You would have to be specific about
21 what you are interested in.
22 Q. So I cannot double-check anything that's contained herein and
23 just trust your administration and your office; is that so?
24 A. Whatever you can find here.
25 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Proceed.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever you can find here in this
2 report are the official coming from the Republic of Croatia
3 to the web page, you will find references in other documents to this
4 database when it comes to DPs and refugees. Yes, they are the official
5 data of the Republic of Croatia
6 are stored in individual files of each person who, at any point, was
7 registered in Croatia
8 that we discussed a couple of minutes ago.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So, Madam Radic, to be able to understand what is written here
11 and to double-check what is written here, I should research and rather
12 than rely on what you provided in your report?
13 A. This report contains everything that is contained in the official
14 data of the Republic of Croatia
15 Q. Not at a single point can I find in which document, which file I
16 can find the data. I'm supposed to research the whole thing back from
17 1991 onwards to make sure that what is written in the report is correct
18 or not?
19 A. You can ask and request official documents, you can do so, and
20 you will be given them and out of the database you can get excerpts. If
21 you want to double-check the database, then you can go deeper and check
22 the personnel file -- the personal files of each person who was
23 registered as a DP or refugee in that database.
24 Q. Thank you. Please take a look in the same document, page 14 in
25 B/C/S and in English that would be 22. Page 22. Please take a look at
1 the last paragraph in B/C/S. I have just one question concerning this.
2 This 125.000 returnees, have they been included in any of the
3 previously-mentioned figure, 220.000 DPs and an X number of refugees?
4 A. No.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The next page, please. Page 23
6 in English. And the next page in the B/C/S as well.
7 Q. Just one question more here concerning the status of DP returnee
8 and refugee, "We keep the following records in the central database," as
9 I quote, and there's a list of them. Is there any item or entry
10 concerning the causes for being displaced?
11 A. As I've stated earlier, there are data on the place of residence,
12 not causes of expulsion, but the place of residence is connected to the
13 cause for expulsion.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at page 17 in
16 B/C/S and 26 in English.
17 Q. Second paragraph in English, the last paragraph in English, and
18 the second paragraph under the heading 10 which starts with "First
19 expulsions" and it's stated here:
20 "On the 1st of August, 1991, the ministry of labour and social
21 welfare had in its register 9.638 expelled persons, but the actual number
22 is estimated to be around 30.000."
23 On the basis of what data did you make this estimate of 30.000?
24 A. These are the official data of the then ministry of labour and
25 social welfare which they collected from their social welfare centres as
1 I've already explained. When the first expulsions of persons occurred,
2 we had not had in place a system of registration. This was not the first
3 concern. The first concern was to accommodate those expelled persons,
4 and the ministry, the then competent ministry collected this kind of
5 information from their local social welfare centres and they made this
6 estimate. This is their official document.
7 Q. Now, if I were to come to your office and seek to see those
8 documents, would I be able to see individual entries, individual names,
9 vital statistics for all those 30.000?
10 A. You wouldn't find that in our office. You would find that in the
11 competent social welfare centres at the local level which functioned in
12 1991. Those first records have been made archival materials of the
13 Republic of Croatia
14 archival documents from the field but we weren't completed this task.
15 Q. You have not completed this task even after 20 years after it
17 A. Well, this is a huge work. We've collected parts of the archives
18 of the social welfare centres at the local level but some documents are
19 still there.
20 Q. Have a look at the fourth paragraph in the B/C/S, which is page
21 27 in the English. It says 320.000 Croatian citizens had to leave their
22 homes, out of which 66.000 went to Serbia
23 people were?
24 A. I have no information about who they were.
25 Q. Do you have any knowledge about their ethnicity?
1 A. I don't have that either. We only have the figure of how many
2 left. That's it.
3 Q. But you must have certain knowledge of the reasons why they left?
4 A. I don't. We only have the statistics here.
5 Q. So out of that figure, 157 were accommodated in Croatia
6 know why they had fled?
7 A. In that sentence, there's no mention made of any reasons. The
8 only thing that is said is that the minister of social welfare and labour
9 on the 21st of November, stated that there were that many Croatian
10 citizens who were forced to leave their homes. There's no other
11 assertion made.
12 Q. I'm asking you whether you have any knowledge. I can read this
13 for myself.
14 A. I'm trying to tell you. During the relevant period of time, the
15 320.000 inhabitants fled due to reasons connected with the war.
16 Q. Thank you. So you have no knowledge about those who were
17 accommodated in Croatia
18 A. I do not assert that I don't know why, I only reflected on the
19 sentence. They fled because of the war, from the war-affected areas in
21 Q. Why did the 66.000 go to Serbia
22 A. Also because of the war.
23 Q. Do you know from which areas?
24 A. I don't.
25 Q. Do you know anything about how many Serb citizens from Croatia
1 between 1991 and 1995 fled or were expelled from the territory of
3 A. I do have certain information about that, but there's no precise
4 figure as to how many there were. There was an estimate of 300.000, out
5 of which 126.000 returned. And they were registered upon their return
6 with the ODPR.
7 Q. Please answer my questions only, otherwise I won't be able to
8 keep the promise to Their Honours in terms of time. I'm asking you about
9 a figure and you are telling me what was done for those people.
10 So there were 300.000 citizens of Serb ethnicity who fled
12 A. That's an estimate.
13 Q. According to the census from 1991, can you tell us how many Serbs
14 lived in Croatia
15 A. Around 12 per cent.
16 Q. Be so kind as to tell us what the figure is?
17 A. I think it is around 560.000, if I'm not mistaken.
18 Q. So over 50 per cent of all Serbs fled or were expelled from
20 A. Yes, in that period. Yes, until 1995.
21 Q. Thank you. The figure you used based on the 1994 census, the
22 figure of 2200, 380, what is that in terms of percentage out of the total
23 population of Croatia
24 A. Well, I don't have any census data here.
25 Q. Let's try to make a calculation then, approximately. How many
1 Croats --
2 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Ms. Friedman.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: I think, I object. Defence counsel is asking
4 unfair questions of the witness without the data in front of her, nor a
5 calculator should she be asked to conclude on statistics.
6 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Maybe you could give the witness
7 the basis that you are using to ask your questions.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so immediately,
9 Your Honour. Please bear with me. I want to locate the table. I wanted
10 to see, although I am surprised to see it's a problem, because it is part
11 of the report. The 1991 census, we saw it a moment ago.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found the part you are
13 referring to. However, there is a total number of citizens in Croatia
14 referred to here, and it is stated how many of them were Croats, Serbs,
15 and others.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Be so kind as to read to us. In 1991, how many Croats lived in
19 A. 78.1 per cent.
20 Q. What is the figure?
21 A. I don't have it here. I would have to calculate it.
22 Q. We'll try to do so.
23 A. There's only an absolute figure here pertaining to the
24 war-affected areas, this report does not cover the whole of the Republic
25 of Croatia
1 Q. You as someone who deals in demographics, can you tell us how
2 many citizens of Croatia
3 A. My area does not fall within the entire field of demography, but
4 and the narrow field of displaced persons, refugees in war-affected
6 Q. So you cannot tell us how many Croats there were in Croatia
8 A. I don't have the total figure. Just like you, I can look at the
9 numbers of the 1991 census to arrive at that.
10 Q. Although in a number of places in your report you mentioned
11 assessments and assumptions, you cannot tell us how many Croats there
12 were in Croatia
13 A. You do the calculation. 87.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 78.1.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This report deals with displaced
16 persons in the war-affected areas of Croatia. Not the whole of the
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So, in 1991 if there were 3 and a half million Croats out of
20 which 220.000 were expelled, what is the percentage?
21 A. Well, you do your math.
22 Q. Thank you, I will. Just a few more questions, Ms. Radic. Do you
23 have any records of how many Croatian citizens were expelled after
24 Operations Flash and Storm?
25 A. Given that most of those people left Croatia, there is no
1 precise -- there are no precise figures. We have precise information
2 about those figures registered in the Croatian Danubian region in 1997.
3 Between April 1997 and April 1998.
4 Q. Ms. Radic, Your Honour, I believe my question was clear. I would
5 kindly ask that my question be answered, if possible. I don't think it
6 was confusing. My question is, how many people were driven out after
7 Operations Flash and Storm, do you or do you not know that? Do you have
8 records of that?
9 A. We don't.
10 Q. Tell us why not?
11 A. How could we keep any records when people were not in Croatia
12 Q. Were these Croatian citizens?
13 A. Most of them were, yes.
14 Q. Under your legal definition, did they fall in the displaced
15 persons category?
16 A. According to the legal definition I have explained, most of them
17 became refugees because they went abroad.
18 Q. Do you know the reasons for which they left Croatia?
19 A. No. I think this is a completely separate issue from those
20 discussed here. We need to go into something that amounts to opinions
22 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, I believe that you
23 have put this question to the witness at several instances and Ms. Radic
24 has said that she was not in a position to answer this question. Also, I
25 would like to point out that when you put this question and you said
1 after the Operation Storm, you were in a way answering this question as
2 well as putting the question to the witness, and that the reasons seemed
3 to be quite obvious, even if they are not in the figures.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
5 understand your remark. Just one more question.
6 Q. The area discussed here, was it also affected by the war? The
7 areas where Operations Storm and Flash took place?
8 A. Yes, those areas were also defined as UNPA areas and areas of
9 special state concern. These are all the same areas in question.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
11 further questions.
12 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Mr. Jordash, you have the floor.
14 MR. JORDASH: May I just take brief instructions, Your Honour,
16 [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Jordash.
19 MR. JORDASH: No questions. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well. Ms. Friedman, any
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Re-examination by Ms. Friedman:
24 Q. Just now, Ms. Radic, you were asked by Mr. Petrovic whether you
25 had figures on the Serbs that left Croatia, and your answer was, and I
2 "How could we keep any records when people were not in Croatia
3 And then you began to explain that you did register when they
4 returned. And so could you clarify, please, in 1997 whether Serbs were
5 entitled to the same returnee status that Croats were entitled to?
6 A. Precisely. We kept records of those Serbs who returned to the
7 Republic of Croatia
8 their statements and keep the statistics. In 1997, in addition to those
9 who returned to Croatia
10 in the Croatian Danubian region during UNPA administration. This was the
11 UN transitional administration which was concluded on the 15th of
12 January, 1998.
13 We registered them then. There were 31.000 people accommodated
14 in the Croatian Danubian region and another 4 and a half thousand persons
15 who came from Serbia
16 Danubian region in order to be able to go back to their homes. We used
17 the very same form, the same method as we did when registering DPs and
18 refugees in Croatia
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I just have one question to put to
25 you, Ms. Radic.
1 I was wondering about the registration form for displaced persons
2 or refugees. I was wondering whether they were filled in on a voluntary
3 basis, how did it work? If someone was moved to another region were they
4 freely filling in this form? Did they have to register themselves or
5 could they just live with members of the family without anybody knowing
6 about them having moved from one region to another?
7 A. No one was under any obligation to be registered, but most of the
8 people did. Of course, there are always exceptions and people did so for
9 their personal reasons. But most people did have themselves registered
10 for one single reason, they had no place to be accommodated or receive
11 food otherwise. They had been left without property and source of
12 income. One of the basic reasons for registering was the economic one.
13 They were left without anything overnight, hence they needed
14 accommodation and food, which, in this case, was provided by the state.
15 For the state to be able to do so, records had to be kept about those
16 people. All people who had themselves registered in that way, were put
17 in the same database that was used to keep records of allowances given to
18 people for private accommodation and how many of them were in organised
19 accommodation facilities.
20 You can see in the tables. For example in 1993, 120.000 people
21 were housed in organised accommodation facilities in displaced persons
22 settlements, hotels, and other facilities of that type. Out of that
23 figure, 85.000 were displaced persons. In order to keep files and
24 registers of those people, we knew -- we had to know the precise numbers.
25 People who were able to cope in other ways by finding accommodation with
1 friends and relatives were under no obligation to have themselves
2 registered. However, most people did because otherwise they had no other
3 source of income. The only income was to receive an allowance from the
4 state and accommodation as well as food. When you are a refugee or
5 displaced person, you have nothing.
6 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. This is very
8 Yes, Mr. Petrovic. I believe you have another question.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just two brief questions by your
11 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Radic, what is the percentage of the Serbs
13 who had fled Croatia
14 A. I told you the figure, 126.000. That's the official information
15 from the same data. That's the latest piece of information we have.
16 It's very difficult to compare though because the census was done in
17 2001, I don't have official information here, maybe it's somewhere in my
18 notes, but after that another 60.000 Serbs returned and had themselves
19 registered upon return to Croatia
20 census next year to be able to tell you what the precise number of those
21 living in Croatia
22 Q. Thank you. Another brief question: What was the percentage of
23 Serbs, according to the census of 2001, lived in Croatia?
24 A. The percentage was 4 and a half per cent.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
1 no further questions.
2 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I would like
3 to know whether additional questions have created some further questions
4 to be put to the witness? Apparently not. So, Ms. Radic, thank you very
5 much for coming to The Hague
6 questions put by the parties and I wish you a very safe trip back home.
7 The trial stands adjourned and we will resume our hearing until
8 Monday, 2.15.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.57 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of June,
12 2010, at 2.15 p.m.