1 Monday, 28 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case
8 IT-03-69-T. The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 A few procedural matters. First of all, the Chamber will still
11 have to decide on the 92 ter motion in relation to Witness JF-034 which
12 is the witness who will testify today. Mr. Weber, no protective
13 measures; is that correctly understood?
14 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So, Mr. Bogunovic, we'll do that in the usual way.
16 If there is anything the parties would want to add in addition to what
17 their response was on the July 2007, we'd like to hear, otherwise we'll
19 MR. JORDASH: No, thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Same for you, Mr. Bakrac.
21 Then the second issue very briefly.
22 On the 10th of June, the Stanisic Defence has submitted a request
23 for certain questions to be put to Dr. Eekhof. On the 24th of June, the
24 Prosecution has filed its response and apparently have no objections
25 against these questions to be put to Dr. Eekhof. The Chamber grants the
1 request and invites Dr. Eekhof to file his answers to these questions in
2 a week, and the Registrar is requested, first of all, to relay the
3 questions put by the Stanisic Defence to Dr. Eekhof, and also inform him
4 that the Chamber would very much like to receive responses to those
5 questions within a week from now.
6 Next brief matter, the Chamber would invite the parties to make
7 submissions, at least if they wish to do so, with regard to increased
8 number of sittings days per week after the recess, which would result in
9 speeding up the pace of this trial. The Chamber is a aware of the
10 recently filed motion for a non-sitting week after the recess. We'll
11 consider that, but, Mr. Bakrac, your request for additional time which is
12 focusing on Mr. Simatovic, of course, is a matter not exactly the same as
13 speeding up, that is, sitting more days a week after the recess. So if
14 you'd like -- if you wish to make submissions on that, you are invited to
15 do so, and the same is true for the Stanisic Defence. We'd like to
16 receive any submissions on this matter before the -- not later than the
17 9th of July.
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, we would like to make submissions,
19 but we would like the submissions to be based on the most up-to-date view
20 by Dr. Eekhof as to what would be reasonable. I don't know if Your
21 Honours would wish then that we construct some questions to put to Eekhof
22 in a way we have done for provisional release or if Your Honours would --
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll, consider -- I -- of course the Chamber is
24 aware of all of the reports that have been filed and now and then there
25 are problems and sometimes it was relatively unproblematic. But, if
1 there are any specific questions you would like to raise with Dr. Eekhof,
2 I think it would be the best way that you would submit him to the Chamber
3 first and we deal with that in a similar way as with the questions in
4 relation to travelling -- capability of travelling and these kind of
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So as then we could receive input from Dr. Eekhof as
9 Then finally, the Chamber has admitted P380, P382, P385, P387, on
10 the 22nd of July. Earlier we had suggested that the Prosecution would
11 file a chart indicating for each document which parts of the documents
12 are particularly relevant and further explaining the probative value.
13 The decision on admission stands, but the Prosecution is nevertheless
14 requested to file such a chart in order to assist the Chamber in
15 attaching the appropriate weight to the documents.
16 Now, the Chamber can imagine, Mr. Groome, that you would leave
17 one column in that chart open and that you give an opportunity to the
18 Defence to fill that column with Defence comments and wait with filing
19 your chart for one week to see whether there's any additional Defence
20 comments in relation to that.
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then for the Defence, would you carefully look
23 at the chart that Mr. Groome will propose and if you do not add your
24 comments within a week from disclosure of the draft chart by the
25 Prosecution, then the Chamber will understand it as if you have no
1 comments. I mean, the documents are admitted into evidence, that has
2 been done already.
3 Finally, I'd like to put on the record that where earlier the OTP
4 had informed the Chamber that the Mladic diaries were all disclosed in
5 translation, that that was a mistake, I do understand that we -- we have
6 granted four weeks for the Defence to respond to. Now, of course those
7 four weeks will start once disclosure is complete in the English
9 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I understand. I apologise. It
10 was the original scans that were available last week. I believe a fair
11 number of them have been disclosed in English, but that process will be
12 completed next week sometime.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber would like to be kept updated on
14 where we stand because otherwise it's a bit difficult for us to keep an
15 eye on the four-weeks time-limit we've set.
16 If there's no other matter, I have no further issues to raise.
17 I would then invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, as
18 I do understand it's Mr. Bogunovic who will testify through videolink
19 from Belgrade
20 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Adam
21 Weber on behalf of the Prosecution. That's correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll see whether the videolink functions
23 adequately. Could I hear from the representative of the Registry in
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can hear you
1 and see you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely because it was not plugged in the right
3 socket, could you please repeat what you just said. I saw you speaking,
4 I didn't hear you.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour, we can hear you
6 and we can see you. Can you hear us?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can hear you, we can see you. If you speak
8 one or two more words then we'll verify but at least all the Judges are
9 able to hear you as well.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour. Can you hear
11 us now?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we all can hear you.
13 And could you please tell us who is with you in the room where
14 you are in at this moment?
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] In this moment is just one
16 representative of the Registry and one technician. The witness is
17 awaiting in the witness room and we can bring him in right away.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you please bring the witness in to the
19 videolink room.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a loud-speaker so the witness doesn't
22 have to wear any headphones.
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Witness is in the video-link
24 room, Your Honour, now and he has his headphones on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, good afternoon. Can you hear me, can you see
1 me, Mr. Bogunovic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bogunovic, before you give evidence, the Rules
4 of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration that
5 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
6 text is now in front of you. May I invite you to make that solemn
7 declaration. Please stand for it. Could you make that solemn
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic. Please be seated.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bogunovic, you'll first be examined by
14 Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution. Mr. Weber, you may
16 MR. WEBER:
17 WITNESS: BORISLAV BOGUNOVIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 [Witness testified via videolink]
20 Examination by Mr. Weber:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic. Can you see me on your monitor?
22 A. Yes, I can see you. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.
24 A. Sorry, I couldn't hear you very well.
25 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.
1 A. My name is Borislav Bogunovic. I was born on the 25th of March,
2 1950 in Negoslavci, the Republic of Croatia
3 Q. Did you provide two statements to investigators from the ICTY on
4 the 6th of June, 2003, and the 8th of February, 2007?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Have you had an opportunity prior to testifying here today to
7 review your prior statements in the Serbian language?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. If you were asked the same questions that you were asked during
10 these previous statements, would you provide the same answers in
12 A. Yes, I would.
13 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 5301,
14 which is the 2003 ICTY statement; and 65 ter 5302, the 2007 ICTY
15 statement into evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, it's not uncommon that we identify the
17 relevant statements with the witness. Now, there's hardly any chance
18 that there's any fake statement. If there's any doubt as to that, I
19 would like to hear from the Defence, otherwise, we could proceed. There
20 appears to be no reason not to proceed.
21 Mr. Registrar, would you please assign numbers.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 5301 will be P553. And
23 65 ter 5302 will be P554, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections to admission? No objections. P553
25 and P554 are admitted into evidence. Yes, Mr. Weber, nevertheless, you
1 go over the formalities very quickly. Perhaps I put one or two questions
2 to the witness in this respect.
3 Mr. Bogunovic, when you gave these statements at the time, did
4 you answer the question in accordance with the truth to the best of your
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bogunovic, when you reviewed those statements,
8 did you recognise them as the statements you gave at the time?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed, Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. In paragraph 60 of Exhibit P553, you confirm a route driven
13 between Backa Palanka to Vukovar via Sarengrad in a video. Did you again
14 have occasion to see this video on the 24th of June, 2010, and did you
15 confirm that this route is depicted at minute marker 503 to 624 of the
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders the two
19 associated exhibits to Exhibit P553. The first associated exhibit is a
20 photo array under Prosecution 65 ter 4640. The second associated exhibit
21 is a video under 65 ter 2839. The Prosecution is only tendering the
22 first 9 minutes and 1 second of 65 ter 2839.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that what you uploaded is limited to
25 MR. WEBER: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objections? No objections.
2 Mr. Registrar, the photo array 4640 and the video 2839 will receive what
4 THE REGISTRAR: The 65 ter 4640 will receive Exhibit P555, Your
5 Honour. And the 65 ter 2839 will receive Exhibit P556, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P555 and P556 are admitted into evidence.
7 MR. WEBER: Pursuant to the Chamber's instructions of 18 February
8 2010, the Prosecution requests leave at this time to present a public
9 witness summary of the evidence of Borislav Bogunovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Have you explained to the witness the purpose of it?
11 MR. WEBER: I did during proofing, but I don't know if the
12 Chamber would like to remind him.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bogunovic, Mr. Weber will now read a summary of
14 your statement that is to inform the public what your testimony is about.
15 However, the evidence is in your statements themselves. Please proceed.
16 MR. WEBER: Borislav Bogunovic is the former minister of the
17 interior of the SAO SBWS government. Prior to becoming the minister of
18 interior, Mr. Bogunovic was elected vice-president of the SDS party in
19 Vukovar in May of 1990. On 7 January 1991
20 the SBWS was established and the witness was appointed vice-president of
21 the council by Goran Hadzic. In August 1991, the SAO SBWS government was
22 formed in Dalj. In his capacity of minister of interior, the witness was
23 part of the establishment of the Serb police force of the SAO SBWS.
24 Although Mr. Bogunovic was appointed minister of interior, the
25 decisions regarding the SBWS police force were made in Belgrade.
1 Mr. Bogunovic personally met with Jovica Stanisic on three to four
2 occasions throughout the fall of 1991. The witness provides evidence
3 that whenever Jovica Stanisic had to talk to anyone from the SAO SBWS
4 government, he would do it with Goran Hadzic and with Radovan Stojicic,
5 aka Badza. The witness states that Badza received operational orders
6 directly from Belgrade
7 Hadzic. The SBWS police force was equipped with uniforms and guns by the
8 Serbian MUP in Novi Sad
9 Serbian MUP by providing Mr. Bogunovic with guide-lines on what to do.
10 After the establishment of the police forces in Borovo Selo and
11 Dalj, other police stations were opened. The equipment, included luxury
12 cars, were supplied by the Novi Sad SUP. The salaries for the SBWS
13 police came from Novi Sad
14 not exist without the full support of Serbia. The evidence of this
15 witness is that Hadzic was controlled by the authorities in Belgrade
16 that Arkan was not under the control of the JNA as he was under the
17 control of the Serbian MUP and Jovica Stanisic.
18 At the end of August 1991, Mr. Bogunovic relocated his office
19 from Dalj to Sid and later when Vukovar was taken over by the Serbian
20 forces, Mr. Bogunovic set up the office in Ilok at the end of November
21 1991. The Red Berets appeared in Ilok at the beginning of December 1991
22 and the witness learned that Franko Simatovic, aka Frenki, was the person
23 who gave them orders. Mr. Bogunovic states that the Red Berets created
24 some problems in Ilok as they were carry out arbitrary checks and
25 searches on vehicles and their occupants. The Red Berets often
1 confiscated vehicles that were never returned to the lawful owners. For
2 this reason, Mr. Bogunovic requested the army to intervene. After a
3 December 1991 meeting with Jovica Stanisic and Badza, Mr. Bogunovic was
4 subsequently removed as minister of the interior of the SAO SBWS.
5 At this time the Prosecution would note for the Chamber's
6 reference that the locations discussed by this witness can be found on
7 map 18 admitted as Exhibit P9 and map 37 admitted as part of P258.
8 May I proceed?
9 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, in paragraph 18 of Exhibit P554, it is your
12 evidence that Slobodan Milosevic controlled Goran Hadzic through Arkan
13 and Badza, and Stanisic was the link between Milosevic and Arkan and
14 Badza. Your testimony today will focus on your experiences with these
15 individuals and the matter in which this impression became known to you.
16 Did you know that these connections existed when the SDS party was formed
17 in Vukovar in May of 1990?
18 A. I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know what the links
19 were, but I was aware that we were definitely, you know, in some way
20 connected with Ivan Raskovic as it turned out later.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Jovan Raskovic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was our belief that Jovan
23 Raskovic and his associates went regularly to Belgrade and that that was
24 the link with Belgrade
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. Between the formation of the SDS party in May of 1990 and the
2 establishment of the Serb National Council on 7th January, 1991, did you
3 become aware of any communications between Goran Hadzic and Slobodan
5 A. Goran Hadzic mentioned going to Belgrade, and he said that there
6 he would meet Slobodan Milosevic. He would then convey that to us during
7 various meetings.
8 Q. In paragraph 15 of Exhibit P554, you state that Goran Hadzic went
9 to Belgrade
10 Slobodan Milosevic. I know that because in government meetings Hadzic
11 often mentioned these meetings. When did you become aware of Hadzic
12 going to these meetings in Belgrade
13 A. I became aware of it during a meeting when Goran told all of us
14 that he had been to Belgrade
15 Milosevic to go on with our work and establish a government. He also
16 said that we enjoyed their support and that everyone was aware of that.
17 Q. How often would Goran Hadzic go to Belgrade to meet with Slobodan
18 Milosevic between January 1991 and the formation of the SAO SBWS
19 government in August of 1991?
20 A. That was on several occasions. On several occasions he conveyed
21 a messages to us. I'm not sure that he informed us about all of his
22 visits, but those visits probably happened five or six times during that
23 period of time.
24 Q. When did you first hear of Jovica Stanisic being present at these
25 meetings in Belgrade
1 A. Goran told us that. He told us that he went to visit President
2 Milosevic together with Jovica Stanisic.
3 Q. Approximately when did Goran Hadzic tell you about this meeting
4 with Jovica Stanisic and President Milosevic?
5 A. He told us that on the eve of the setting up of the SAO Krajina
7 Q. Did you hear of Jovica Stanisic being present at all between
8 meetings from January 1991 to August 1991?
9 A. Well, as far as I could learn from Hadzic who informed us about
10 what was going on, I would say, yes.
11 Q. When is the earliest point in time that you heard of Jovica
12 Stanisic being present at meetings in Belgrade?
13 A. Well, I heard that sometime after the 1st of May, after the
14 conflicts broke out in Borovo Selo. That was when he informed us that
15 Jovica Stanisic had also attended a meeting.
16 Q. Between May and August 1991, how often did Hadzic go to Belgrade
17 for these meetings?
18 A. I think, or rather, as far as I know from his reports during that
19 period he attended such meetings about four times, meetings in Belgrade
20 Q. You state in the same paragraph, this is paragraph 15 of Exhibit
21 P554, that Hadzic would come back from Belgrade with instructions on what
22 to do. What instructions were provided to Hadzic between May and August
23 of 1991?
24 A. These instructions were as follows: We were supposed to set up a
25 government, we were supposed to have our representatives who would
1 represent the people of Slavonia
2 boiled down to our task to set up a government. We were supposed to see
3 what we would do with the produce that was produced in the area, and we
4 were also supposed to provide security for the corridor that would allow
5 people to get supplies, to get to the doctors, and that was supposed to
6 be done by the military. The military were supposed to provide security
7 for those who wanted to pass through that corridor, and we were also
8 supposed to try to enable the people of the area to work and live and
9 move about without any problems.
10 Q. What members of the Serb National Council were told of these
11 meetings by Goran Hadzic?
12 A. Ilija Koncarevic, Ilija Petrovic, Slavko Dokmanovic, Miodrag
13 Crnogorac, Boro Milinkovic, and perhaps some others who I don't remember
14 at the moment, but I would say that those were the people involved.
15 Q. Whose instructions did you believe were being implemented by the
16 Serb National Council of the SBWS prior to August of 1991?
17 A. I believe that we had a lot of things that were imposed upon us
18 by the situation. However, I was also convinced that Goran was receiving
19 instructions from Belgrade
20 brought new instructions for us as to how to proceed.
21 Q. After the government of the SAO SBWS was formed in August of
22 1991, how often did Goran Hadzic go to Belgrade and receive instructions?
23 A. When Hadzic became the president of the government, he went to
25 system, we didn't have our tender, so we had to deal with the problem of
1 salaries for the police and everybody else. And at that time we were
2 closer to Novi Sad
3 more often he went to Novi Sad
4 both him and all of us.
5 Q. Where in Novi Sad
6 A. Goran Hadzic attended those meetings at the regional government
7 or the regional council, and that's where he discussed problems that
8 prevailed at the time, mainly the sale of the agricultural produce and
9 its transportation to Serbia
10 else. That was one thing. And there was also another thing and that was
11 to implement some ideas and deal with some problems that we faced. The
12 first problem was funding that we didn't have or finances, in general.
13 And the second thing was helping us with the work of the government.
14 With our work we did not have much experience. We had just started doing
15 our jobs, executing our tasks and we needed help with that.
16 Q. Between August and December 1991, what instructions were provided
17 during -- provided to Hadzic during these meetings?
18 A. According to those instructions, we were supposed to help our
19 residents to see how they could get by some money. All the goods were in
20 short supply and the supplies were getting shorter by the day. So there
21 was a problem with supplies, with the money, things had to be brought
22 over from Serbia
23 Also, there was a need for us to inform both people in Belgrade as well
24 as people in Novi Sad
25 Q. Did Goran Hadzic receive any instructions on what ministers to
1 appoint to the government?
2 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, objection. Unless my learned friend is
3 referring to a part of the statement, he must be leading.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I don't have a particular point in the
5 statement. I believe the witness has generally discussed they received
6 instructions on how to set up the government of the SAO SBWS. I can
7 phrase it a little bit more broadly by saying what, if any. There are
8 many instructions that were provided many times, I'm just trying to get
9 directly to the matter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you please rephrase it and because it seems that
11 instructions appear clearly in the statement but not necessarily what
12 type of instructions and what these instructions covered as we find it in
13 your question.
14 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, may I also make the point that I again
15 cannot find anything about the regional government in Novi Sad giving
16 instructions to Hadzic in the statements. This is a whole -- I might be
17 wrong, but this looks as though it's a whole new subject which my learned
18 friend has discussed with the witness but not disclosed to the Defence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: The witness's meanings and providing -- I don't want
21 to say too much in front of the witness in terms of --
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you put questions to the witness, could you
23 refer, as much as you can, to the part of the statement you are --
24 MR. WEBER: I will. The witness has discussed at length what was
25 going on in Novi Sad
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you perhaps in order to inform Mr. Jordash and
2 the Chamber about what parts of the statement you are referring to with
3 your questions.
4 MR. WEBER: Of course.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, what, if any, instructions were provided to Hadzic
8 concerning the appointment of ministers?
9 A. First of all, the party provided proposals for the appointment of
10 ministers and that was normal. However, there were also people whom we
11 didn't know at the time. They did not reside in the SBWS territory.
12 They were Caslav Ocic from Belgrade
13 Ilija Petrovic from Novi Sad
14 We provided our proposals and Goran told us that those men that I have
15 just mentioned should also be appointed as ministers. Most of us, or
16 rather, none of us knew them. We had seen Koncarevic and Petrovic at
17 some prior meetings. I don't know how they happened to find themselves
18 among us, but I can say that people who resided in the territory of that
19 area I knew them but as for the others, we did not propose them, we did
20 not know anything about them until the moment Goran informed us that they
21 would be put forth for those positions.
22 Q. Did Goran inform you of the reason he was putting forth certain
23 individuals for appointment as ministers?
24 A. The reason that he mentioned was the fact that those people were
25 necessary to establish the necessary links between us and Belgrade and
1 Novi Sad
2 conveyed to us. He recommended that we should accept that proposal and
3 we did finally.
4 MR. WEBER: Could I please have Exhibit P16 in evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, there was some misunderstanding. May I
6 take it that you want to have P16 which is in evidence on the screen?
7 MR. WEBER: Oh, I apologise, yes, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. There was some confusion with the
9 Registrar. That's how I understood you, but -- so what you wanted to say
10 is, could I please have Exhibit P16, which is already in evidence.
11 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much.
12 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, can you see the document that is now before you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This is the "Official Gazette" publication listing the ministers
15 of the government of the SAO SBWS. Who on this list did Hadzic receive
16 instructions to appointment? If you could please just go down it.
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I do have to object to this line of
18 questions. This does not in any form appear in the disclosure. This is
19 a matter which my learned friend has discussed with the witness at
20 length, has obviously got notes and has chosen not to disclose.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it what Mr. Weber has done apparently is not
22 for you to tell us, but you say it's not part of the disclosure, whatever
23 he may have discussed or not discussed with the witness.
24 MR. JORDASH: What is part of the disclosure is Hadzic --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see what Mr. Weber's answer is.
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, there's two statements. There's two
2 proofing notes -- three proofing notes, and another third statement that
3 has been taken from this witness. I'm showing him an item in evidence
4 and in conjunction with a rather short proofing note last week, there was
5 information concerning information about an appointment of the minister.
6 This witness throughout his evidence has testified that there were
7 instructions received by Goran Hadzic on how to set up the government of
8 the SAO SBWS. This falls well in the confines of that notice.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The proofing note, of course, first of all, is not
10 in evidence, but second is, I don't know --
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's a bit difficult for the Chamber to decide
13 because we have not seen any proofing notes.
14 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I can inform the Court that --
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the only thing I just want to caution is
16 because the witness hasn't given an answer if Mr. Jordash could refrain
17 from providing any substantive information in whatever his comments are
18 going to be.
19 MR. JORDASH: I can put it this way: That the disclosure that we
20 have received does not -- concerning the appointment of one minister,
21 does not include the last 20 minutes of evidence and the ministers
22 mentioned therein. And, Your Honour, I did put my objection in the way
23 that I did, that my learned friend has discussed this with the witness,
24 because it's clearly the witness and counsel knows where they are going
25 with this. The only people who don't know are us in the Defence.
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the witness has testified that Goran
2 Hadzic received instructions on how to set up the government of SAO SBWS.
3 I'm just showing him an exhibit and asking him who, and that's all I'm
4 doing. This is within the confines of his noticed evidence for this
5 witness and who he was and his relationships with these other people.
6 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, my learned friend is right. We did receive
7 notice that this witness was going to say Hadzic received instructions
8 from Milosevic. And then we received a proofing note in June detailing
9 that one particular person was appointed as a minister because of the
10 first accused, and that is it in relation to what, in fact, Hadzic
11 received instructions to do. So, yes, we have received an extremely
12 generalised disclosure on the issue and my learned friend's submission
13 amounts to, well, we can fill in the details as we go along in Court.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I can --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: In paragraph 6 of the 2003 statement going back there
17 is a sentence in there, there were also discussions in Novi Sad and
19 that occurred. He names many of the other people throughout his
20 statement that were included in those discussions, talks in paragraph 7
21 about prior to the formation of that government. Mentions an individual
22 that he has just mentioned today. If counsel could please actually read
23 through the statements before making accusations towards the Prosecution
24 in this regard. We are just following through on what this witness's
25 disclosed evidence has been.
1 MR. JORDASH: I'm sorry --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to cut this short. Apparently
3 instructions and setting up of the government is a, as I understand you
4 well, is a rather general issue and to go into all kind of details which
5 could have elicited during these interviews would have put you on notice
6 of what actually Mr. Weber is asking about.
7 MR. JORDASH: In fact, it's worse than that, Your Honour.
8 They -- the paragraph of the statement my learned friend has just
9 discussed do summarise the position, and the position is summarised at
10 paragraph 6 where the witness speaks of discussions with Milosevic,
11 discussions and meetings between Hadzic and persons in Belgrade, and
12 approvals of certain decisions made by those local to the SBWS. So we
13 have at one point in time disclosure saying the decisions were made
14 locally and approved in Belgrade
15 reversal, that decisions were being made in Belgrade and sent to SBWS,
16 and then on top of that non-disclosure of what those decisions were, in
17 fact, the decisions I mean emanating from Belgrade.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber denies the objection, although it also
20 expresses that, Mr. Weber, it's not as clear-cut as you say it. It would
21 have been preferable to have more of the details you are apparently
22 interested in now in the statement so that it would have been disclosed
23 to the Defence. We'll see how it develops and we'll also see whether
24 this would trigger any further need for preparations from the Defence.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. WEBER:
2 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, on the document that appears before you, could you
3 please tell us who on this list did Hadzic receive instructions to
5 A. As far as I can see here at that meeting we did not discuss the
6 matter of Ilija Kojic being the defence minister. Caslav Ocic was not
7 supposed to be a minister for foreign affairs. This came as a surprise.
8 However, we finally ended up accepting Goran Hadzic's explanation.
9 Q. You just mentioned Ilija Kojic. How was Ilija Kojic appointed to
10 being defence minister?
11 A. He was appointed upon Mr. Goran Hadzic's proposal once he was
12 appointed president of the government. As I said, the party had not put
13 his name forth. It was at Goran Hadzic's proposal that we appointed him.
14 Goran Hadzic had the right to put forth proposals, and he proposed Ilija
15 Kojic and Caslav Ocic.
16 Q. Did anyone tell Goran Hadzic to appoint Ilija Kojic?
17 A. No, as I've just said, that came as a surprise to us. However,
18 he said that such a move was necessary, that he himself believed that
19 that should be done, and we went along.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have shown to the
21 witness page 2 of the B/C/S and English versions of Exhibit P407.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could I ask one or two additional
23 questions to the witness.
24 Mr. Bogunovic, do I understand you well that in your discussions
25 you came up with proposals and suggestions of people to be appointed and
1 that finally most of them were approved but not all of them, is that how
2 I have to understand your testimony?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am afraid I did not hear you
4 well. Could you please repeat your question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you well that you during your
6 conversations you suggested and you proposed names of those to be
7 appointed and that then your suggestions or proposals would be approved
8 by Belgrade
9 were appointed?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, there were such
11 instances as well. We put forth our proposals. We conveyed those
12 proposals to Goran Hadzic, and it happened often times that he had to
13 see, he had to think about it, and then finally he would come up with his
14 own proposals, and he explained that the people he proposed were well
15 connected in Belgrade
16 case, he urged us to approve his proposals and to act upon them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you gain the impression that the visits of
18 Mr. Hadzic to Belgrade
19 specifically in relation to those persons you had not proposed or
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So when you explained that he told you what the good
23 reasons were to appoint other persons than the ones you suggested, you
24 gained the impression that this was discussed and/or supported by those
25 to whom Mr. Hadzic talked in Belgrade
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As soon as our proposal was
2 not accepted, that meant that there must have been another
3 counter-proposal that Goran would go along with.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but what role would Belgrade have played in
5 those other proposals?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the way I saw it at the time,
7 it seems that people who were appointed were those who would certainly
8 keep them posted at all times about what we were doing in the government
9 and what was happening in the area.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you say keep them posted, who are you referring
11 it to when you say "them?"
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably someone from the
13 government or Milosevic himself.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean Belgrade government circles; is that
15 how I have to understand it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please show to the witness
19 P407. At this time the Prosecution requests that the report not be
20 broadcast to the public. Page 2 of both the B/C/S and English versions,
22 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, in the first paragraph of this Serbian state
23 security report, it describes a conflict between Ilija Kojic and Miroljub
24 Vujovic. Do you know what this conflict is about?
25 MR. WEBER: Counsel, if you like, it's on paragraph 22 of the
1 2008 proofing note.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you right away that the
3 rift between the two was actually with Vujovic on one side who was a
4 representative of the Territorial Defence and he was at the helm of it
5 and Ilija Kojic on the other, who was at the head of the Ministry of
6 Defence at the time. There was an argument between the two and at some
7 point things got a bit too far. Basically they almost engaged in open
8 clashes. The person who tried to calm the tension was Mr. Visic who was
9 the municipal president. He tried to act as a go-between to reduce
10 tensions and to prevent any potential bloodshed and victims.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. What was the reason that Kojic wanted Vujovic to topple the chief
13 of the Vukovar SUP?
14 A. The reason for that was because Vujovic followed a certain line,
15 and he had people who had fought with him in battle-fields. An argument
16 ensued between him and Kojic because he believed that he was not supposed
17 to hold that position and that he wasn't doing things the way people
18 expected him to, or at least those fighters believed things should be
20 Q. The second paragraph of this report indicates that the assistant
21 minister of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia, Jovica Stanisic,
22 tried to use Slobodan Ivkovic, Ilija Kojic, and Kostic, and others to
23 turn the Krajina into a "twilight zone." Was there any connection or are
24 you aware of any connection between Jovica Stanisic and Ilija Kojic?
25 A. I believe there must have been a connection between the two
1 because Ilija Kojic at the time was the defence minister. They probably
2 had some points in common, although I cannot be any more specific than
3 that. In any case, I believe they must have been in touch and that they
4 had their own arrangements.
5 Q. What did you either directly see or hear that led you to believe
7 A. We had meetings about those events. Hadzic was in a way
8 circumvented as the president as well as we in the government. This was
9 at the apex of the rift between the minister of defence and the
10 Territorial Defence. At that time the minister of defence of Krajina was
11 included as well. And one could clearly see that the police and the
12 military had gone their own separate ways. They could not reach an
13 agreement about some things that were taking place at the moment.
14 Q. What type of licence plates did Ilija Kojic have on his car?
15 A. The registration plates on Ilija Kojic's car were that of the MUP
16 of Serbia
17 Q. Did any other ministers have licence plates with the same
19 A. No.
20 Q. In paragraph 56 of Exhibit P553, you state that there were
21 Territorial Defence staffs in the territories that were freed and they
22 were responsible to the minister of defence, Ilija Kojic. He was the one
23 who co-ordinated the Territorial Defence with the JNA. My question to
24 you is, who controlled the Territorial Defence of the SAO SBWS?
25 A. Until the end of 1991 the TO was controlled by the army. They
1 had to co-ordinate their activities with the army at the time.
2 Q. When you say "they had to co-ordinate," who was the "they" that
3 you are referring to?
4 A. The TO, or rather, TO staffs and army staffs. They had to be in
5 co-ordination and co-operation.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I don't know if this is a time for a
7 break or not, but this would be a good breaking point for me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber. And how much time would you still
9 need after the break?
10 MR. WEBER: Still have a ways to go. A full session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Full session. But the initial assessment was two
12 hours, isn't it?
13 MR. WEBER: Yes, and this is the first session so I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Two sessions is not the same as two hours.
15 MR. WEBER: Yes, I appreciate. So I believe I will use whatever
16 the two hour allotted time is.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break and resume at 4.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you are ready, you may proceed.
21 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. In paragraph 45 of Exhibit P553, you indicate that:
23 "Although Arkan was not a member of government, he would
24 occasionally attend meetings. It was my impression that he did that in
25 order to control some ministers."
1 What gave you the impression that Arkan attended meetings in
2 order to control some of the ministers?
3 A. It depended very much on the agenda of a meeting. Occasionally
4 Arkan would come in, sit down, and listen to what we were discussing so
5 as to be familiar with what was being discussed at such meetings.
6 Q. Would there be times that Arkan took a more active role in the
8 A. He wouldn't say much, only on occasion. Mostly after a
9 government session would finish, he would leave with Hadzic and then the
10 two of them probably discussed what was discussed that day.
11 Q. Could you please describe the relationship between Goran Hadzic
12 and Arkan?
13 A. I can say that Arkan's seat was in Erdut, much as Goran's. They
14 met in the morning usually, and they were constantly in touch, unless
15 Arkan was somewhere in the field outside of Erdut.
16 Q. In paragraph 23 of Exhibit P554, you state that you got the
17 impression that Arkan and Badza operated on the same level with no
18 subordination between each other. They were both trusted by the Belgrade
19 establishment so they had freedom in the field. What gave you the
20 impression that Arkan and Badza operated on the same level with no
21 subordination between them?
22 A. I got that impression because they met daily and co-operated. I
23 know that Arkan had his men, whom he took into action. He did things of
24 his own accord, at least much of what he did was done in that way. I
25 can't say whether the two of them discussed things they were going to do
1 frequently. I only know that they were together frequently. And that's
2 what gave me the impression that they worked on things jointly.
3 Q. When you or other members of the SAO SBWS government would
4 discuss matters with Arkan and Badza, did Arkan and Badza indicate who
5 they had to contact?
6 A. No, they never did so. They never said who had sent them and who
7 they were in contact with. They didn't share that with us. Goran was
8 aware of it and perhaps some other people, but I was not in a position to
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P54 marked
11 for identification for the witness.
12 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, this is a certificate issued by the supreme
13 headquarters of the Territorial Defence of the SAO SBWS dated 13 December
14 1991. The certificate states it is issued in order to regulate the
15 employment status of the named individual and is signed by commander
16 Radovan Stojicic. Why would certificates regulating the employment of TO
17 members have been issued by Badza?
18 A. Well, the certificate speaks for itself. It was used to justify
19 leave absence. As you can see here, Badza appears here as the commander.
20 It surprised me a bit when I saw this document because he never referred
21 to himself as the commander, but we can see him signing this, and this
22 explains what his role was in the area at the time.
23 Q. Do you recognise the stamp on this document?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. How do you recognise the stamp?
1 A. I recognise it as the stamp of the Territorial Defence of Dalj.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
3 Exhibit P54 into evidence. It was originally marked for identification
4 on the 27th of August, 2009, with Witness B-215 pending the witness's
5 return for cross-examination.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. P54 is admitted into
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. In paragraph 19 of Exhibit P554 you state:
10 "Regarding the financing of the SAO SBWS police force, I have to
11 state that the money came from Novi Sad. On the other hand, there was no
12 monetary system in the SAO SBWS. We had no funds."
13 This paragraph concludes:
14 "I could say that the SAO SBWS was a virtual government. It
15 existed on paper but, in fact, we could not do anything without Serbia
17 What do you mean when you state that the SAO SBWS government
18 could not do anything without Serbia
19 A. It was clear to everyone that without the support and
20 co-operation from Serbia
21 did not have our monetary system, our own finances that we could use to
22 pay the police at first and later on the other bodies. That was the
23 first precondition. We had to provide our agricultural produce, that was
24 for the most part taken to Novi Sad
25 received money. That is how we managed to keep the government and police
1 going. That's how we paid people working for the government and the
2 public servants we employed.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 2635, page 2
4 in the English and page 1 in the B/C/S, placed before the witness.
5 Q. This is the budget of the government of the SAO SBWS for the year
6 1991 as published in the "Official Gazette." Under Article 1 of the
7 budget, it states that the total revenue of the SAO SBWS for the year
8 1991 amounts to just over 27 million dinars. Did the government of the
9 SAO SBWS have over 27 million dinars available as revenue?
10 A. We can see that by May 2, 1992
11 normal. There was no existing problems in terms of payment. We followed
12 the system that had been used in the Republic of Croatia
13 government had been formed we established our Ministry of Finance.
14 However, what you see here is something we didn't really have. This was
15 only the final amount for that current year in terms of revenue and
16 expenditure, but I don't know how anyone arrived at these figures. As I
17 said, much of it -- much of the system did not operate. In my opinion,
18 this is fictitious so as to put something on paper.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 in the
21 Q. Under Article 5 of the budget, the sources of revenues are
22 individually listed. Could you please review these sources and tell us
23 if the government of the SAO SBWS collected revenues from these sources
24 in 1991.
25 MR. WEBER: In the English version this carries over to page 3.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me start with first
2 things first. The surplus of revenues --
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Sir --
5 A. -- I don't know where that started from. There are many --
6 Q. Sir, sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Unfortunately I'm limited
7 on time. I was wondering if you could just please look at these listed
8 sources of revenue and let us know simply whether or not the SAO SBWS
9 actually collected revenue from these sources?
10 A. It's hard to believe.
11 Q. Is it then a correct understanding that the SAO SBWS did not
12 collect revenue from these sources?
13 A. Yes, you would be right there. It didn't.
14 Q. This exhibit reflects that Ilija Koncarevic issued this decision.
15 Why would Ilija Koncarevic be the individual to issue a decision on the
17 A. Ilija Koncarevic was the president of the Assembly at the time.
18 I don't know. It's very hard for me to understand that that was not done
19 by the minister of finance or the president of the government. I really
20 don't know how come that it was Ilija Koncarevic who did that and not
21 somebody else.
22 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 12 exhibits into
23 evidence. We are requesting separate exhibit numbers for each of the
24 exhibits. These Exhibits are laws, decisions, and minutes of the
25 government of the SAO SBWS. A chart individually listing these exhibits
1 was provided before the proceedings today. Prosecution 65 ter 2635 is
2 included on this list.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Do we find in the chart specific portions which we
4 have to pay attention to the specific areas of relevance in those
6 MR. WEBER: They are the laws that were in effect. I believe
7 there's a description of each of the exhibits as to what they are.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it sounds very much like bar table
10 MR. WEBER: That's correct. That's what I'm doing.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that we have certain rules for that?
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I do have a witness on the stand that
13 could authenticate each and every one --
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's not about authentication. It's about large
15 amount of texts coming in where the Chamber of course has got no idea yet
16 on whether the number 10 conclusions of the Assembly whether everything
17 is relevant or certain portions are relevant. And I think the system is
18 that you make a chart, that you point at the specific areas of relevance
19 which the Chamber could focus on when reading it, then that there would
20 be a column for the Defence in which they could give their comments as to
21 whether they challenge the relevance of that or whether they want to draw
22 our attention to other elements of those documents so that the Chamber
23 can work in a more focused way.
24 MR. WEBER: Be happy to do whatever the Chamber would like. We
25 have discussed it with both Defence and there's no opposition to the
1 admission of these. I believe the parties have spoken about it and in
2 accordance with the nature of these discussions, believe it is most
3 efficient at this time to seek admission.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, if -- I see 12 minutes from the 18th
5 session of the SAO SBWS held on the 28th of November in Erdut. Not all
6 of it is direct relevance to the case. It may be that that's different
7 here, but then the Chamber wants to know what paragraph, what pages
8 require our specific attention for this case. I think that, Mr. Groome,
9 also looking at you, I think we've explained this at earlier occasions.
10 To make a chart and identify the specific relevant portions of documents
11 or if the document is a short document, to describe in half a line what
12 the relevance is, then give an opportunity to the Defence to add that and
13 then make a bar table submission of those documents.
14 MR. GROOME: We'll do that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Meanwhile, we may, can reserve exhibit
17 MR. WEBER: Yes, if we could have at least 65 ter 2635 admitted
18 at this time. The witness has provided --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest -- I suggest, we have here 12 bar table
20 documents that we'll reserve 12 numbers for them, and that once we've
21 received the submission in which we can read what the relevance is and
22 where the Defence has been given an opportunity to either draw attention
23 to other relevant portions or to challenge the relevance and say this is
24 a mistake that, that we then finally decide on admission.
25 Mr. Registrar, the numbers would be, the numbers to be reserved
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number that will be reserved
3 for the 12 65 ter numbers are P557 up to P568, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And already, Mr. Weber, in this system P561 would
5 correspond with 65 ter 2635. Any objection because that's not bar
6 tabled, that's introduced through the witness? Then P561 is admitted
7 into evidence and the other numbers we are waiting for your chart
8 explaining relevance.
9 MR. WEBER: Of course.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. In your previous statements you describe personally meeting with
13 Jovica Stanisic on three to four occasions. In paragraph 14 of Exhibit
14 P554, you discuss a late August 1991 meeting in Novi Sad in the Vojvodina
15 building -- excuse me, the Vojvodina police building. What is the reason
16 that you and Hadzic went to this meeting in Novi Sad?
17 A. The reason we went to Novi Sad was the setting up of police
18 stations in Dalj and Borovo Selo. We went to that to discuss the
19 uniforms for the police and weapons, as well as communications means and
20 a couple of vehicles that would be used by our police.
21 Q. In paragraph 13 of Exhibit P553 you state that:
22 "Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, was with the Serbian MUP, acted as
23 co-ordinator and gave us guide-lines on what to do. He was the one who
24 said we could go to Novi Sad
25 How did Badza co-ordinate this meeting in Novi Sad?
1 A. Badza co-ordinated the meeting through Goran Hadzic. He told him
2 that we should go to Novi Sad
3 interior and we were supposed to discuss the hand-over of all the
4 aforementioned things.
5 Q. Was this meeting the first time that you met Jovica Stanisic in
7 A. I'm not sure whether that was the first or the second time. I
8 believe that it was the first time.
9 Q. Approximately how long did this meeting in Novi Sad last?
10 A. The meeting was rather short. A decision was reached to give us
11 what we had requested. Near Novi Sad there is a place called Klisa.
12 That's where the police depo was. Some 10 or 15 meetings after the
13 meeting I went there to that place called Klisa and from there we
14 obtained the uniforms and all the other things that I mentioned.
15 Q. Who did this police depot belong to?
16 A. To the MUP of Vojvodina, or rather, to the regional secretariat
17 in Novi Sad
18 Q. Okay. And the MUP of Vojvodina is a part of what MUP?
19 A. The MUP of Serbia
20 Q. Could you please describe the uniforms that were provided to you
21 for the police forces of the SAO SBWS?
22 A. The uniforms were the same as the uniforms of the Serbian police.
23 Trousers, jackets, short-barrelled weapons, just like the police in
25 Q. What colour were these uniforms?
1 A. Blue.
2 Q. When you say short-barrelled weapons, what type of weapons were
3 provided to you from this depot in Novi Sad?
4 A. Those were the red Zastava pistols calibre 65.
5 Q. Where were these pistols licensed, if you know?
6 A. I don't know where they were licensed. We took them over. I
7 signed the receipt, and I don't know about anything else.
8 Q. In paragraph 12 of Exhibit P554, you discuss a meeting with
9 Jovica Stanisic in Backa Palanka that took place in the autumn of 1991.
10 Do you recall the month in which this meeting occurred?
11 A. I can remember the meeting took place in late October or early
13 Q. You indicate that Jovica Stanisic, Hadzic, Ljubo Novakovic, and
14 some other people from Novi Sad
15 did you know the other people that were there were from Novi Sad
16 A. I learned that from conversations. They discussed the assistance
17 to the displaced persons and people in Slavonia. They were to be
18 accommodated in Ilok and while they were in the Sports Hall there,
19 reference was made to Novi Sad
20 obtained, as well as groceries. Backa Palanka is a small municipality
21 and could not provide all that, so they said that we should go to Novi
22 Sad if we wanted to obtain all those supplies.
23 Q. Where did this meeting take place in Backa Palanka?
24 A. In the office of the Backa Palanka municipality president.
25 Q. Approximately how long did this meeting last?
1 A. The meeting lasted for an hour and a half, or at least that's how
2 long I was there and that's how long the discussions took before any
3 conclusions were reached.
4 Q. After this meeting, did you relocate your offices to Ilok?
5 A. After that meeting we had another meeting of the government in
6 Erdut, and I was told to move my offices to Ilok together with another
7 minister, Vojo Susa. A couple of days later, we set up our stuff, or
8 rather, our office where we continued to work.
9 Q. Who told you to move your office to Ilok?
10 A. Goran Hadzic.
11 Q. Once you arrived in Ilok, were there any problems?
12 A. Yes. When Croats left Ilok, about five to six Croats left, and
13 the equal number of people were settled there from other municipalities
14 in Croatia
15 accommodated in houses or apartments. They were all to be provided with
16 food and the bare necessities to sustain them during the first few days.
17 Q. In paragraph 8 of Exhibit P554 you state that there were some
18 conflicts between our police force and the Red Berets and there were
19 complaints from civilians. Allegedly the Red Berets took some vehicles
20 from local populations and for their own use. The Red Berets would go
21 into houses of civilians, all of them Serbs, Slovaks, Croats to request
22 vehicles for the use of the TO. But the vehicles were never returned to
23 their legitimate owners. When did the Red Berets arrive in Ilok?
24 A. I can't give you the exact date. However, towards the end of
25 1991 or the beginning of 1992, the first Red Berets appeared. I didn't
1 know who had sent them or why, but they were there. They arrived in a
2 somewhat bigger house. They were billeted there, and that's where their
3 headquarters was. On a couple of occasions, there were problems
4 involving the Red Berets and the people working at the police and the
5 citizens of Ilok. There were cases when they took vehicles and that was
6 allowed at the time, but they were supposed to provide a receipt. The
7 vehicles should have been confiscated for a limited duration of time.
8 However, when they took the vehicles that they did, they did not provide
9 any receipts and, any documents to that effect. The vehicles were simply
10 taken from their owners and never returned to them after that.
11 Q. Did you learn who the commander of the Red Berets in Ilok was?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not everything that
14 the witness has said has been interpreted. The witness also said how
15 many such cases there were, and I don't see that that has been recorded.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean vehicles being taken, how often that
18 MR. WEBER: I believe this matter can either be explored on
19 cross-examination or the parties can request a verification of the
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, Mr. Weber. If there is what seems to be an
22 obvious lack of translation, I'm not saying there is, we would rather
23 verify that right away so that we know what the evidence is and that we
24 are not missing anything due to it not being translated.
25 Mr. Petrovic, is it there were cases when they took vehicles and
1 that was allowed at the time but they were supposed to provide a receipt,
2 is that where you thought the number was missing? Could you point at the
3 line --
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both in the line
5 that you read out as well as in the last sentence uttered by the witness.
6 I believe that he indicated on two occasions how many such cases there
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask him.
9 Mr. Bogunovic, did you refer to numbers of those cases where
10 vehicles were taken, and if so, could you tell us what those numbers
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said three or four cases. I
13 don't know whether there were any more than that. I can't tell you, I
14 don't remember. It was a long time ago. But I remember that there were
15 complaints by that many citizens.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] What the witness has said reflects
19 the gist of the -- what he said before, although he used different words.
20 Maybe it would be useful to listen to that part of his evidence to know
21 exactly what the witness said the first time around. I'm happy with his
22 answer but for the sake of the accuracy of the testimony, maybe it
23 wouldn't be a bad idea to listen to it and to record it just as it was
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we've difficulties in listening
1 to the original, that you do so, and elicit from the witness in more
2 detail what he said about it. But I do understand we are talking about
3 small numbers, Mr. Bogunovic; is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please, proceed, Mr. Weber. I leave it to you
6 whether you want to seek further clarification at this moment.
7 MR. WEBER: Prosecution appreciates counsel assisting with the
8 matter too.
9 Q. Mr. Bogunovic, who did you learn was the commander of the Red
10 Berets in Ilok?
11 A. I didn't understand your question, I'm afraid. Whose commander?
12 Q. I'll repeat my question. Did you learn who the commander of the
13 Red Berets in Ilok was?
14 A. Yes. According to what I heard and according to the statements
15 of those people who wore Red Berets, Frenki Simatovic was their
16 commander. That's what I heard from them.
17 Q. In paragraph 9 of Exhibit P553, you indicate that the Red Berets
18 stationed in Ilok would carry out check-ups and searches on their own
19 accord. What kind of check-ups were carried out by the Red Berets?
20 A. The Red Berets checked both people and vehicles that were moving
21 about. They also went to some houses to check who resided in them and
22 some other similar things. For example, those people who arrived in Ilok
23 had to report to them. They had to be in the know. They had to know who
24 had arrived and who was moving about Ilok.
25 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 3836 from
1 the bar table, if permitted. Is a Captain Dragan Fund on file for an
2 individual. The file indicates that the individual was a member of a
3 unit for special purposes of the MUP Serbia under the command of Zivojin
4 Ivanovic, aka Zika Crnogorac, and was injured on the 18th, 19th of
5 December, 1991, near Ilok. This is corroboration of the testimony of
6 this witness. The Prosecution will also note at this time Exhibit P478,
7 the Serbian DB file for Zika Crnogorac which includes a certificate
8 indicating that he is a member of the reserve police force of the
9 Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia
10 certificate was signed by Dragoslav Krsmanovic, so we are tendering from
11 the bar table a KDF file.
12 JUDGE ORIE: This is one single file of which the, I take it the
13 relevance and the probative value has been set out by Mr. Weber.
14 Mr. Petrovic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understood the
16 witness, or rather, the witness's statement corroborated this document.
17 In addition to what the witness said, he didn't say anything else. He
18 did not provide any other knowledge about the Red Beret and what they did
19 in the area. I don't see how anything from the witness's testimony could
20 corroborate this document. I didn't hear it. I didn't see it in his
21 statement. The witness clearly stated that he does not know anything
22 else about the Red Berets.
23 MR. WEBER: The witnesses have provided their knowledge. It's
24 corroboration of the fact that the Red Berets in Ilok in December of 1991
25 as described by the witness, and just to be clear about who the Red Beret
1 unit that we are talking about, we're introducing an item of evidence, a
2 KDF file, that shows that this is a unit that was involved with the MUP
3 of Serbia
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. I don't
6 have the document before me but the document referred to by the
7 Prosecutor has to do with 1993, I believe, if I am not mistaken.
8 MR. WEBER: The document refers to the individual who is applying
9 for pension with the Captain Dragan fund who was injured on the 18th, the
10 night of the 18th, morning of the 19th of December, 1991 as a member of
11 the special purpose unit of the MUP under the command of Zika Crnogorac.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Irrespective of that, Your Honour,
13 this witness provided no basis for that. We can discuss this as a bar
14 table document, but this cannot be relied on as part of this witness's
15 testimony. Perhaps the Prosecutor will reconsider and then submit it as
16 a bar table document, not other than that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I think you introduced it as a bar table
19 MR. WEBER: That's correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So that objection then is based on a
21 misunderstanding of what Mr. Weber said. Stanisic Defence?
22 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I just want to make sure I'm accurate in my
23 response. The difficulty that we have with this document is that it does
24 refer to specific combat activity, and it's that which is troublesome.
25 My learned friend says it's introduced to confirm or corroborate that the
1 Red Berets were in Ilok, but the real evidence within that document
2 relates to some combat activity led by Zika, and it's that which a bar
3 table motion would be required to deal with and to explain exactly what
4 that evidence related to and why that was relevant and probative.
5 MR. WEBER: If I may respond.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: That's a rather tangential issue. We've explained to
8 the Chamber the reason that we are offering it, and it's to corroborate
9 and confirm the presence of the Red Berets in Ilok.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The issue raised by Mr. Petrovic about 1993 is not
12 valid because it deals with 1991, that it should be bar tabled. There is
13 no need to respond to that because there's what Mr. Weber did, and
14 Mr. Weber has sufficiently explained the relevance and the probative
15 value in order for the Chamber to overrule the objection by the Stanisic
17 Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
18 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be Exhibit P569, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P569 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
20 Mr. Weber.
21 MR. WEBER:
22 Q. In paragraph 11 of Exhibit P554 you discuss a third meeting in
24 governments. Could you please tell us who was present at this meeting?
25 A. The meeting took place in the government building in Serbia
1 behalf of the Serbian government there was Mr. Zelenovic who chaired the
2 meeting. I cannot remember the names of all their ministers in
3 attendance. I can only tell you that on our behalf there was Goran
4 Hadzic as president and we as the ministers. We were all there to attend
5 that scheduled meeting.
6 Q. In paragraph 11 of Exhibit P554 you indicate that shortly after
7 the meeting in Belgrade
8 by Badza. How did Badza inform you of this?
9 A. At a meeting of the SBWS government Badza was present and he told
10 Mr. Hadzic, the president, that I should be removed due to poor
11 co-ordination and co-operation with him. The issue was that we disagreed
12 on a number of issues, and he suggested that a different person be
13 appointed. This was not accepted by the other ministers at that session.
14 However, at the next session, Goran offered me the place of deputy prime
15 minister in exchange for my position of the minister of interior.
16 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
18 I hardly dare to ask who is first and who will be more or less
19 victimised by being the second.
20 MR. JORDASH: I hardly dare say, but it's me.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that you have made clear arrangements
22 so as not to curtail the right to cross-examine by the Simatovic Defence.
23 Mr. Petrovic, if at any point you think that you might be at risk to be
24 left sufficient time, then, of course, you either asked to further
25 discuss the matter with Mr. Jordash or you address the Chamber.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bogunovic, you'll now be cross-examined first by
3 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic. Please proceed.
4 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, before I begin, could I clarify with
5 the Chamber how long we might be given so that I can work to that
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what I see is that the Prosecution used one
8 hour 45 minutes net time. How much time would you need?
9 MR. JORDASH: I think if I was trying to be cautious I would say
10 three hours but I hope to finish in two.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And then have you made arrangements with
12 Mr. Petrovic, how many hours would he need after that? Mr. Petrovic?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my assessment, as it
14 stands now, is up to two hours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is a 92 ter witness.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence is encouraged to see whether they can
18 finish cross-examination together in three hours, but we'll carefully
19 monitor the way in which you use your time, that is, if you would always
20 be very focused and if you would elicit useful evidence, then we might
21 extend that to four hours as you had more or less requested together. At
22 the same time the Chamber is not much inclined to do that if it finds a
23 lot of questions to be either repetitious or not very relevant,
24 et cetera. So we'll also look at the way in which you use your time.
25 That is not very clear guidance, but it is guidance which may encourage
1 you to use your time as efficiently as possible.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bogunovic.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I want to refer, first of all, to P553, your statement of 2003,
8 paragraph 25. You have the statement in front of you; is that right?
9 A. I don't have it still.
10 Q. Well, perhaps I can read the line to you and ask you --
11 JUDGE ORIE: On my screen I see that the witness is provided with
12 a document. Have you got it in front of you now, Mr. Bogunovic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. JORDASH: Please go to paragraph 25. The B/C/S paragraphs
16 correspond to the English paragraphs so, yes, paragraph 25 in both the
17 English and the B/C/S.
18 Q. And, Mr. Bogunovic, could you please look at the surrounding
19 context because I want to understand precisely what it is you meant by
20 this paragraph.
21 A. In this part of my statement I stated that I had no contacts with
22 any person from the DB and that there isn't anything I could say on that
24 Q. The investigator speaking to you in 2003, in relation to the DB
25 was asking you about what role the DB had played in the events in the
1 SBWS in 1991 and 1992; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And am I correct that your answer at paragraph 25 took into
4 account both civilian and military matters concerning 1991 and 1992; is
5 that correct?
6 A. I am afraid I did not understand your question. Could you please
8 Q. The -- when you answered that the DB had -- let me start that
9 again. When you stated that you had no contact with the DB, who were you
10 referring to when you said that "we had no contact with the DB?" Who was
12 A. We of the government from the area. At least I'm not familiar
13 with this.
14 Q. And when you say "the government," are you referring to -- just
15 give me a moment.
16 A. The government of Slavonia
17 Q. Were you also referring to the national council which existed
18 before the government?
19 A. Yes, I was. As of the 7th of January when the national council
20 was established in 1991 and onwards.
21 Q. And were you referring to issues concerning the JNA when you
22 stated that you did not know what role the DB had played?
23 A. No. The question was about the state security service, and I
24 said what I said. I said that we had no contacts with them. As for the
25 JNA, we did have contact with them, with the people who at that time were
1 in the Sirmium-Baranja region.
2 Q. So you were saying that whatever the government or the national
3 council was engaged in in the SBWS, it had, as far as you were aware, no
4 contacts with the DB of Serbia?
5 A. Yes, that's what I said.
6 Q. And putting aside your direct contacts, the government's direct
7 contacts with the DB, were you also saying that you did not know what
8 role the DB had played and you had not been told what role they might
9 have played; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Do you stand by that answer today?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Let me take you to other parts of your statement, P553, please.
14 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to paragraph 12.
15 Q. I want to ask you about some of your activities as paragraph 12
17 "As the minister of the interior my first duty was to form the
18 police station in the villages of Borovo Selo and Dalj. Our task was to
19 find people and to choose those who would work there and also to provide
20 them with uniforms, equipment, vehicles," et cetera.
21 Are you with me, Mr. Bogunovic?
22 A. I am.
23 Q. Am I correct that your first duty was an urgent one because of
24 the chaos which existed at that time in parts of the region of SBWS?
25 A. I did not understand. I did not understand the question well.
1 Q. It was important that you moved quickly to form a police station
2 in both Borovo Selo and Dalj because civilians of all ethnicities were
3 being harassed by, let me put it generally, men with guns; is that
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. And so your task was an urgent one and your task required
7 supplies which you didn't at that time possess; is that correct?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. You were setting up police stations from scratch, if you
10 understand that statement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And so you --
13 A. Correct. That's correct.
14 Q. And so you looked towards the Novi Sad SUP to provide some of
15 those supplies to enable you to set up police stations; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the SUP provided some basic supplies to allow you to set up
18 the police stations; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And at paragraph 13 you state that part of those supplies
21 included guns from the SUP Novi Sad
22 A. From the warehouse I specified. That's where we received
23 supplies from. It belonged to the SUP of Novi Sad.
24 Q. And were those supplies used by police officers in the police
25 stations that you refer to at paragraph 12 and 14?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did those police stations as a general rule bring some law
3 and order to the SBWS region, or certainly those villages referred to in
4 your statement?
5 A. Yes, they did. Not only in those villages, but in the villages
6 surrounding them.
7 Q. What specific role did you have once the police stations had been
8 set up in relation to those police stations?
9 A. I wanted the people working for the police to do their work
10 properly and fairly irrespective of the ethnic background of anyone,
11 including those who had violated the law and who acted well beyond what
12 one would consider normal in such circumstances.
13 Q. Were you then in charge of these police stations?
14 A. Yes, I was, but they all had their own respective station
15 commanders. At the ministry I also had a number of associates assisting
16 me in doing everything properly.
17 Q. On a day-to-day level were you making the operative operational
18 decisions about how the police stations or how the commanders of the
19 police station should work?
20 A. Yes, together with my staff at the ministry we worked on that. I
21 had people who had worked for the police for a number of years and who
22 were familiar with many tasks.
23 Q. Were you attempting to protect only Serbians, or were you trying
24 to protect civilians in general?
25 A. As I have said a moment ago, it was our duty and obligation to
1 protect all citizens living there, those who behaved properly, who did
2 not do anything wrong and lived normally.
3 Q. Were you personally in daily or weekly contact with Hadzic at
4 this time?
5 A. Yes, I was. Perhaps not daily but at least weekly.
6 Q. What was his attitude towards the work you were doing?
7 A. He never said that something was wrong. He seemed content with
8 what I was doing, at least as far as I know.
9 Q. Looking at paragraph 14, Mr. Bogunovic, and the first statement
10 there, the first sentence states:
11 "After other areas were freed, there was a need for new stations
12 to be set point up ..." Then there's a whole list of stations. What did
13 you mean when you said "after other areas were freed?" Why did you use
14 the word "freed?"
15 A. I used the word "freed" because there were parts of that region
16 which were inaccessible to us. There were barricades, and no movement
17 was possible for civilians and Serbian civilians in particular to move
18 about those parts.
19 Q. Are you able to pin-point with any accuracy when it was that the
20 villages in the SBWS were freed, as you describe it? Was there a point
21 in time when the government agreed that the villages had been freed?
22 A. On the 20th of September, we began liberating such locations, and
23 Vukovar was freed sometime in November, around the 20th of November.
24 That's the period in question.
25 Q. And so by November or late November, early December, all the
1 villages had been freed?
2 A. Yes, as well as Vukovar.
3 Q. When did the JNA leave the region?
4 A. The JNA left the region, as far as I recall, towards the end of
5 1991 or the beginning of 1992.
6 Q. And until they left the region, they were in effective command of
7 the freeing of the villages; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you have a look at paragraph 23 of your statement P553,
10 please. "We didn't notice the presence of the MUP of Serbia in the
11 take-over of the villages. Everything was led by the army." Would you
12 agree with me then what you saw and what you observed was the JNA and not
13 the MUP of Serbia involved in freeing the villages?
14 A. Yes, the military and the Territorial Defence together were
15 liberating the villages. The military administration ruled over the
16 entire area up to the 23rd of December, as far as I can remember.
17 Q. The remainder of the paragraph, paragraph 23 states:
18 "Apart from Badza, Zavisic, and perhaps one or two other men, we
19 didn't notice anyone else from MUP there."
20 Would you agree with me that up until --
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. Would you agree with me that when Badza arrived, he -- no, let me
23 strike that. When did Badza arrive in the SBWS region, can you remember?
24 A. As far as I can remember, it was a long time ago. That was
25 sometime around mid-August or perhaps even towards the end of August.
1 Possibly even the beginning of September, but I can't remember.
2 Q. Was this around the time you were setting up the police stations?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did Badza come with members of a special unit from the public
5 security of Serbia
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could you find in the minutes to come a
8 good time for a break.
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.
10 Q. Where did he come from, as far as you understand it?
11 A. As far as I could understand, he had arrived from Belgrade
12 Q. Belgrade
13 A. Well, I mean from the MUP of Serbia.
14 Q. From what you observed when he arrived, did he assist with
15 providing support to the setting up of the police stations?
16 A. Well, he did assist, and he told us what we should do to be safe,
17 for all the civilians to be safe, or rather, for all the residents of the
18 area to the safe.
19 Q. So he moved around the police stations providing that expert
21 A. Yes. He did move around the police stations that had been set
22 up. He did have experience, and he was in a position to assist us. He
23 was in a position to tell us what to do and how to best go about our
25 Q. Putting aside -- and I'll come to this later, but putting aside
1 his, from what you've described, somewhat overbearing attitude towards
2 you and others, was he engaged in providing security to civilians in the
3 SBWS region in the months after he arrived?
4 A. By providing us with instructions and advice and so on and so
5 forth, one could notice that he wanted to avoid problems in the liberated
6 areas where the police stations had already been set up. He wanted
7 things to be done in accordance with the law, in accordance to how he saw
8 things should be done.
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, if that may be a convenient moment,
10 thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's a convenient moment. We'll have a break and
12 we'll resume at 6.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, at the very beginning of today's
16 session, I referred to some documents which were already admitted into
17 evidence but were nevertheless like to receive a chart. I do understand
18 that on the transcript it's not audible, at least it doesn't appear that
19 I also mentioned P384 and not only the other ones, therefore it's now on
20 the record.
21 Mr. Jordash, are you ready to proceed?
22 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Welcome back, Mr. Bogunovic. Can I ask you to look again at your
1 2003 statement, P553, at paragraph 13. Sorry, paragraph 14. And the
2 section I'm interested in is where it says:
3 "All the equipment that was received came from Novi Sad
4 included vehicles such as police Puch, four Land Rovers, and several
5 luxury cars." Have you found that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Am I correct that the cars or the vehicles which came from Novi
8 Sad had Serbian licence plates?
9 A. As far as I can remember, the vehicles did not have any
10 registration plates at the time.
11 Q. The vehicles that came from Serbia, none of them had licence
12 plates; is that what you are saying?
13 A. I don't remember that those vehicles had registration plates. It
14 was only later that we were provided with a registration plates for those
16 Q. Who provided the registration plates?
17 A. They arrived from Novi Sad
18 Q. And the plates that arrived from Novi Sad had M on them
19 indicating they were coming from Serbia
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And those licence plates were given to all the vehicles that came
22 from Serbia
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And those vehicles were given to prominent persons involved this
25 the security of the SBWS; is that correct? Such as police station
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Ilija Kojic had one of those; is that correct?
4 A. No, not from that contingent, no.
5 Q. Well, what was different about his plate which also, as you told
6 us, had an M on it?
7 A. Yes, but he did not get a vehicle from that contingent. He did
8 get M registered plates, a vehicle, but I don't know whether it arrived
9 from Novi Sad
10 Q. But the plate he had was the same as the other plate, but just
11 from a different contingent as you put it; is that correct?
12 A. The car that he got with registration plates, I don't know who he
13 got it from, but that didn't go through the MUP, or at least, I didn't
14 know about that.
15 Q. But the registration plate he had was the same as the
16 registration plates relating to the cars from the Novi Sad SUP or
18 A. It was an M registration plate. I don't know what the numbers
19 were, but the M was exactly the same as on the others.
20 Q. Right. And when you said just a moment ago that "it didn't go
21 through the MUP, or at least I didn't know about that," is it correct --
22 is there any reason why you wouldn't have known about that? Let me put
23 it differently. Did you know about all the vehicles coming from the SUP
24 from Novi Sad
25 A. No. I signed a receipt for those things that were handed over to
1 me and I am aware of those vehicles. I don't know of any others.
2 Q. So you were aware of the vehicles which came directly to the
3 Ministry of the Interior? That was your remit; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. What I'm saying is that I was in charge of those things
5 that I took over. Ilija Kojic's vehicle was not one of those, therefore,
6 I don't know where it had come from, how it had come to him.
7 Q. Thank you. Just give me a moment, please.
8 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, that we have P554 on the
9 screen. And this is your statement of the 8th of February, 2007. And I
10 want to look at paragraph 25, please, in both the B/C/S and the English.
11 Q. Your statement says:
12 "The first weapons that were brought and distributed to the
13 Serbian villagers in the SAO SBWS area could not be brought there without
14 the knowledge of the Serbian police. I do not have any direct
15 information of the involvement of the MUP and the DB in this operation."
16 Do you have that?
17 A. I'm afraid I didn't hear your question. Can you repeat?
18 Q. That wasn't a question yet. I was just checking whether you had
19 read the relevant paragraph. Have you read paragraph 25?
20 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I've read it.
21 Q. How were these weapon -- let me strike that. When you describe
22 the first weapons being brought into the Serbian villages, which period
23 of time are you referring to approximately?
24 A. I'm referring to a period after the 2nd of May, 1991.
25 Q. 2nd of May, and when you refer to the early, or sorry, the first
1 weapons being brought, are you talking about throughout May on to June or
2 I'm trying to establish what it is you mean about these first weapons and
3 which period exactly, or approximately?
4 A. Before the 1st of May, all we had were hunting rifles and some
5 people had their own personal weapons. However, after the 2nd of May and
6 after the incident in Borovo Selo we received a certain quantity of
7 weapons from Serbia
8 Q. And who received the weapons? When you say "we," who is we?
9 A. There were Crisis Staffs in the villages which received whatever
10 arrived, be it weapons, food, or something else. In other words, there
11 were Crisis Staffs and their commanders, and the commanders and their men
12 received all those things.
13 Q. And were different Crisis Staffs making their own arrangements to
14 receive these weapons?
15 A. Please repeat. The reception is bad so I didn't understand your
17 Q. Sorry, I'm probably speaking too quietly. Did the different
18 Crisis Staffs make their own arrangements to receive weapons in the
19 period that we are discussing?
20 A. Well, I can say that things like that did happen.
21 Q. Well, was there a co-ordination amongst the Crisis Staff to
22 receive weapons, or were there different Crisis Staffs using their own
23 staffs to make arrangements?
24 A. There were co-ordinated efforts and things were brought to the
25 villages that were threatened and that believed that they had to defend
2 Q. Were you involved in the co-ordination?
3 A. I was the president of the Negoslavci Crisis Staff myself, and I
4 was one of those who received some of the weapons at one point in time.
5 Q. Who did you receive the weapons from? How did you make the
7 A. I can't tell you where the weapons came from. I didn't know any
8 of those who had brought the weapons personally. In any case, the
9 weapons were taken over in Sid. All the presidents of the Crisis Staffs
10 were there and then they managed to transport the weapons that they had
11 been issued with in any way they could.
12 Q. Well, take your mind back to the time when the decision must have
13 been made in your Crisis Staff to obtain weapons from Serbia. Who made
14 the initial arrangements, or any of the arrangements?
15 A. The initial arrangements were made by the national council, or
16 rather, its members. Goran and somebody else were earmarked and
17 appointed to obtain weapons and protect people who were threatened at the
19 Q. And you must have spoken to Goran Hadzic about that, about those
20 arrangements; isn't that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you must have been aware of the weapons arriving and being
23 delivered to your Crisis Staff; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were vice-president of the national council; isn't that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And from what you've said, the national council was the -- excuse
4 me if I'm para-phrasing, but the supervising body arranging the transfer
5 of these weapons from Serbia
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this occurred in May. Did it also occur in June 1991?
8 A. When?
9 Q. May of 1991. Did it also occur in June?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did it occur after June?
12 A. Yes. Later we also received a certain quantity of weapons by the
13 military -- from the military rather.
14 Q. I'll come to that in a minute. I want to stick with these, how
15 shall I put it, private arrangements with the Crisis Staff before the
16 military get involved.
17 Did that occur after June, the private arrangements with the
18 Crisis Staff?
19 A. I don't know on how many occasions, but I believe that on three
20 or four different occasions the weapons arrived throughout June, July,
22 Q. And the weapons -- sorry, let me start that again.
23 Is this right: The military become involved after July and is
24 that a response -- is that right?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And was it your observation that the weapons that had been
2 supplied prior to the military becoming involved were old weapons or
3 up-to-date weapons?
4 A. The first batches involved old weapons, some of which was
5 obsolete and no longer used by the police or the military. Those were
6 Thompson and the so-called Spagins. It was only after the military
7 started arriving that some other and better weapons arrived with them,
8 like automatic and semi-automatic weapons.
9 Q. So you observed at the time that the weapons you were receiving
10 through these private, what I've called private arrangements, were no
11 longer used by the police in the SUP of Novi Sad; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is correct.
13 Q. And are you able to give us an indication of how significant or
14 insignificant the arrival of these old weapons were in terms of arming
15 the population of the Serbian villages in the SBWS?
16 A. It was important because people felt a degree of safety and
17 security. However, none of us knew at the time that those weapons were
18 not in a good state of repairs, obsolete. Had we known at the time what
19 we had received, I'm sure that the feeling would have been different, but
20 at the time we felt safer because we had received weapons, although we
21 didn't know what those weapons were, what they were like. I believe that
22 actually nobody ever used those weapons ever.
23 Q. Thank you. And throughout your time as the vice-president of the
24 national council and through the time of May, June, and July, you did not
25 hear that this had anything to do with the Serbian MUP or the Serbian DB;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Well, no, I really can't say that that had anything to do either
3 with the MUP or anybody else. I really don't know where the weapons came
4 from. The weapons were rather old, obsolete, I don't know where it
5 originated from.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask that we go back to P553, please. The
8 witness's first statement. And paragraph 72.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MR. JORDASH: Do we have paragraph 72. Page number is easier I
12 Q. If would you have a look at 72, please.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "Later when the JNA came they started distributing weapons.
15 Through the TO they made lists of people, and assigned weapons to them."
16 Could you elaborate on that, please, how this process took place and who
17 it involved?
18 A. At the time when the JNA arrived, they immediately assumed
19 command of the village. They provided weapons to the people who they
20 believed were ready and willing to carry arms, who were willing to place
21 themselves under their command and carry out tasks requested of them.
22 Q. And this was a part of the process of freeing the villages, as
23 you described; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, correct.
25 Q. And securing them afterwards?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And was this process controlled by or supervised by the
3 government or the national council?
4 A. None of us could supervise that. Whatever we asked or required,
5 there was the military command in place and we couldn't put any questions
6 or conditions.
7 Q. When you say "we couldn't put any questions," are you referring
8 to the whole national council hierarchy up to Hadzic?
9 A. Yes, I am.
10 Q. Do you know who in the JNA was making the decisions?
11 A. I'm not certain who made decisions. I know that the commander at
12 the time was Mrksic, Sljivancanin was with him, and I heard of some other
13 people, although I did not have occasion to speak to them.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to paragraph 56 of this statement,
16 please. Or page 10 of the English and page 11 of the B/C/S.
17 Q. If I can just read quickly:
18 "There were Territorial Defence staffs in the territories that
19 were freed and they were responsible to the minister of defence Ilija
20 Kojic. He was the one who co-ordinated the Territorial Defence with the
21 JNA. He was responsible to the government, and he reported to the
22 government. Ilija Kojic could not do anything without the knowledge of
23 the JNA. Nothing could be done without the JNA's approval. He also had
24 no influence over day-to-day operations and had no authority to give
25 instructions to the TO on the ground."
1 What role did Ilija Kojic play given that limitation?
2 A. Ilija Kojic's role was to co-ordinate with TO staffs on behalf of
3 his ministry to the extent possible at the moment. As I said already,
4 nothing could be done without the army, without their decision or orders.
5 Hence, during that period, he always had to wait for army decisions
6 before conveying them further.
7 Q. Did Kojic have anything to do with distributing the weapons that
8 were coming from the JNA?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You said that as if you were very certain. How are you so
11 certain? I am not suggesting you are wrong, I'm just asking how you are
13 A. When the army brought in weapons, they had their own people
14 distributing it. No one from the national council could be present or
15 decide who the weapons were to be given to.
16 Q. I don't know if you are able to answer this, but by the time the
17 JNA left, were the Serbian villages comprehensively armed, as you
19 A. When the JNA left there were many weapons in the Serbian villages
20 and they were well armed.
21 Q. At paragraph 45, and we can go to it but we may not need to, of
22 this statement, you refer to Kojic having been interfered with by Arkan.
23 MR. JORDASH: Let us go to it so you can see. Page 8 of the
24 English and page 9 of the B/C/S.
25 Q. Let's also deal with the first part of that paragraph since we
1 are here. It's with reference to a meeting following the taking over of
2 Vukovar, and if you need to go back in the statement to get context,
3 please say so. This meeting was attended by Vojin Susa, Slavko
4 Dokmanovic, Miodrag Crnogorac..." and so on. And then you note:
5 "Although Arkan was not a member of government, he would
6 occasionally attend meetings. It was my impression that he did that in
7 order to control some of the ministers." Have you found that?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Am I correct that you never saw Arkan, in fact, issue any orders
10 to the government in meetings?
11 A. It is correct that he did not issue orders. He provided
12 suggestions on occasion, but at government sessions, he never issued
13 orders. Only when there was a meeting in Vukovar, he insisted on some
14 things that had to do with the prisoners, although I cannot recall that
15 precisely. That was the only time his opinion conflicted however
16 slightly that of those representing the army.
17 Q. Apart from Hadzic, was Arkan close to any other ministers?
18 A. I'm not sure whether he was close with any others. I think he
19 was only close with Goran. He wasn't so close with the rest of us from
20 the government. We did occasionally meet and greet, but there were no
21 extensive contact.
22 Q. In meetings did he appear -- let me start that again.
23 In meetings did ministers other than Hadzic appear to appreciate
24 his presence or tolerated it?
25 A. I couldn't tell whether they appreciated it or not. We did
1 tolerate him, and if he said something, none of us put up much resistance
2 ever. We knew he wouldn't take that. So in a way we co-operated with
3 him a little, although we did not want any extensive contact.
4 Q. Am I correct though that your decisions as the minister of
5 interior were not dictated to by Arkan?
6 A. No, my decisions were not dictated by Arkan.
7 Q. Thank you. And going back to paragraph 45:
8 "He was located," he as in Arkan, "was located 50 metres from the
9 government building and interfered a lot, primarily with Ilija Kojic,
10 minister of defence." What form did that interference take?
11 A. Arkan decided where to go by himself, he had some 2- to 300 of
12 his men. And frequently he undertook his own activities, the reasons for
13 which were only known to him. Such orders did not come from the army or
14 anyone else. I think he did have discussions with Kojic, but he didn't
15 pay much heed to what Kojic did. I think it was quite the other way. I
16 think Kojic took what Arkan said much more than Arkan did in case of
18 Q. Why do you use the word "interfere?"
19 A. Well, I tried to indicate that he was meddling. I tried to
20 picture a relationship between two people whereby one would try to talk
21 the other into doing something and the other one can oppose or accept.
22 Q. Can you give any concrete examples?
23 A. Well, I can say that there was a plan for certain villages which
24 at that time were still occupied to have them freed in one way, whereas
25 Arkan would say that he didn't find that the best way possible and he
1 wanted to do it the way he saw fit.
2 Q. So the JNA would be in charge of the taking over the villages.
3 Kojic would answer to them and take suggestions from Arkan. Is that a
4 fair summary of what you've just said?
5 A. No. The JNA did free the villages, they did. But Arkan did the
6 same in some other villages with his men. The army did not take part in
7 that, but I say this as -- well, it wasn't always the way Kojic had
8 envisaged it, but Kojic certainly he could not resist Arkan in trying to
9 stop him.
10 Q. Couldn't Kojic call on any armed men of his own to prevent Arkan
11 from approaching it in the way he wanted?
12 A. No, he couldn't. I'm certain of that.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. We did not have the power to stop Arkan. Even certain JNA
15 officers dared not stand up to him.
16 Q. How many men did the JNA have, do you know that?
17 A. I can't say how many men they had. Many. But I think that they
18 believed if they opposed Arkan, there would be a lot of people hurt and
19 they rather let him do things his own way than have casualties.
20 Q. So is this correct: Arkan and his 2- to 300 men promised a
21 bloody battle if anyone stopped him and so the JNA and Kojic and the like
22 chose not to?
23 A. No direct threats were issued, but he frequently said that was
24 under no obligation to listen to anyone and that he would do things the
25 way he thought them best.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
2 sentence of his answer.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. Could you repeat the last sentence of your answer, Mr. Bogunovic,
6 A. I said that he would not have anyone issue orders to him and that
7 it could mean that there could be a clash resulting in casualties with
8 people being hurt or killed.
9 Q. Isn't it also the case that Arkan was co-operating with senior
10 members of Novi Sad
11 A. I don't know what was the extent of his co-operation with any
12 organs of the Novi Sad
13 well as most of those from the army complained that he refused to
14 co-operate and that he refused to undertake co-ordinated activities with
15 the army. They said he always did things his own way.
16 Q. Let me ask you about -- just give me a moment. You know somebody
17 or you knew somebody at the time called Radovan Kostic or Rade Kostic; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Not at the time, I didn't know Rade Kostic then.
20 Q. When did you come to know Rade Kostic?
21 A. Sometime in 1993.
22 Q. And when you came to know him what were the circumstances?
23 A. We met in the MUP building of the Sirmium-Baranja region.
24 Q. So throughout 1991 and 1992, you had no dealings with Rade
25 Kostic; am I correct?
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. He never attended any government meetings?
3 A. I don't remember. At least he didn't introduce himself.
4 Q. He didn't give you any orders?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you see him giving anyone in the government any orders, 1992
7 and 1991?
8 A. I don't recall that person at that time.
9 Q. Would you agree with me that it's absolutely ridiculous the idea
10 that Kostic was above everybody in the SBWS government from your
12 A. As far as I know, yes. I really don't remember him, and I never
13 saw this man there.
14 Q. And your experience of him in 1993 was of somebody who might have
15 been collecting information for the Serbian DB at some point in the past?
16 A. That is possible, but I truly don't know that.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. I notice the time, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is 7.00. Mr. Bogunovic, we will adjourn
19 for the day. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00. One
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bogunovic, but I would first like to instruct
23 you that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in any other way
24 with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given
25 today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow. Is that
1 clear to you?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll resume
4 tomorrow the 29th of June -- Tuesday the 29th of June, 9.00 in the
5 morning in this same courtroom. We stand adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 29th day of June,
8 2010, at 9.00 a.m.