Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6032

 1                           Tuesday, 29 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would you

 6     please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 8     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-03-69-T.  The

 9     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Let's first check whether the videolink is functioning well.

12     Mr. Bogunovic, can you hear me and can you see me?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.  And, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Jordash, are you ready to continue your

15     cross-examination?

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes, thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  And before we start, Mr. Bogunovic,

18     I would like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

19     declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony,

20     that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

23                           WITNESS:  BORISLAV BOGUNOVIC [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           [Witness testifies via videolink]

Page 6033

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:  [Continued]

 2        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bogunovic.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Could I ask for P553 to be on e-court, please.  And

 5     page 9 of the English and page 10 of the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, would you look at paragraph 52, please, which

 7     states:

 8             "We found out about Ovcara much later.  It was rarely mentioned

 9     because the people who were there were not allowed to talk about it and

10     were afraid.  It was Vujovic and Vujanovic who forbid any discussion

11     about this.  Since they were commanders, I'm convinced that it was them

12     who forbid any discussion, and if it wasn't for them, then Ovcara

13     wouldn't have happened."

14             Have you reminded yourself of that paragraph?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Just in two or three sentences, could you explain what happened,

17     as you understood it, at Ovcara in 1991?

18        A.   As far as I understand, some of the prisoners stayed behind in

19     Vukovar, or rather, in Velepromet.  At that time the commanders were

20     Vujovic and Vujanovic, and instead of taking people to Serbia, those

21     people were taken to Ovcara and were executed there.  We didn't know

22     about that immediately after the event.  A lot of time lapsed until the

23     story became public and until we all found out what had happened there.

24        Q.   And Vujovic is Miroljub Vujovic; is that right?  M-i-r-o-l-j-u-b.

25        A.   Right.

Page 6034

 1        Q.   And was he tried for this crime?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where was he tried?

 4        A.   In Belgrade, at the special court there in Belgrade.

 5        Q.   And he received, is this right, a 40-year sentence?

 6        A.   I believe so or perhaps 20.  I'm not sure.

 7        Q.   And am I correct that Vujovic was known at the time or became

 8     known soon after as somebody who -- just give me a moment, please.  Did

 9     Vujovic have a particular reputation at the time of these events as

10     somebody who was not willing to respect the laws of war and respect

11     civilians?

12        A.   I personally didn't know Vujovic.  I did not know him from

13     before.  He was not a member of my party.  He was not a party member.  I

14     knew very little about him, but I did know the men who preceded him as

15     commanders and that's why I said without knowing them that maybe it

16     wasn't a good thing to have them appointed to those positions.  I don't

17     know whether he had the reputation that you described, however, whatever

18     you just said turned out to be the truth after those events.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have P407 on e-court, please.  Not to be

21     broadcast.  Thank you.  Could we go to page 2.

22        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, I don't know if you recall this from yesterday,

23     but it is or purports to be a state security report from Novi Sad to

24     Jovica Stanisic.  Are you following me?

25        A.   No.  I cannot ...

Page 6035

 1        Q.   Let's go to page 1 then, please.  Let's just make sure we both

 2     understand what we are looking at.  Do you see the first page, Ministry

 3     of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   To Jovica Stanisic.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Chief of the state security department?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And the subject is a report, one copy of the report on Slavonia,

10     Baranja, and Western Srem?

11        A.   I can see all that.

12        Q.   And we go over the page to page 2, and the first paragraph there,

13     just have a look and remind yourself of this which we looked at

14     yesterday.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The first paragraph describes what appears to be some kind of

17     staged or fake clash between Kojic and Vujovic, the same Vujovic we were

18     speaking about in relation to Ovcara.  Yesterday when you were asked

19     about it by my learned friend for the Prosecution - Your Honours page 25

20     of the draft transcript - you described something a little different,

21     which was a genuine argument between Kojic and Vujovic.  Do you recall

22     that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So you agree with me that this report from your experience is

25     inaccurate and that the disagreement between Kojic and Vujovic was, in

Page 6036

 1     fact, quite genuine?

 2        A.   I'm sure it was genuine, yes.

 3        Q.   And do you know the basis of the disagreement between the two?

 4        A.   The basis of the disagreement aligned the fact that Vujovic did

 5     what he wanted.  He did things that he was not authorised to do, that he

 6     was not supposed to do.  When he was called to task and when he was told

 7     that he should not go on doing them, he opposed and he said that he would

 8     blow up the police building if need be just to prevent things from being

 9     the way they wanted them to be.  In other words, the argument was genuine

10     and I'm sure that it was.

11        Q.   So is this accurate then:  Vujovic was a threat to the work of

12     the police as Ilija Kojic saw it?

13        A.   Yes, that is a fact.

14        Q.   And not just a threat to the police, but a threat to the security

15     of ordinary civilians in the region?

16        A.   Yes, I must say that the TO was joined by people whom we didn't

17     know.  There were robberies, murders, and the security situation was

18     rather bad.

19        Q.   So returning to the Exhibit P407 and the second paragraph:

20             "The source said Serbia was to blame for all these developments,

21     that is, the assistant minister of the Ministry of the Interior of

22     Serbia, Jovica Stanisic, who tried to use Ivkovic, Kojic, Kostic, and

23     others to turn the Krajina into a 'twilight zone.'"

24             Would you agree with this that Kojic was, in fact, certainly in

25     the context of Vujovic, trying to prevent Vujovic from causing chaos in

Page 6037

 1     the region?

 2        A.   I agree.  Not only did Kojic want that, but also people from the

 3     government, or rather, the residents of the area did not feel safe.  They

 4     feared Vujovic's men and what they were doing and how they behaved.

 5        Q.   Looking at -- thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  Looking at paragraph 3:

 6             "Visic also accused Kojic of obstructing the work of the SUP,

 7     preventing inspection service, the police and municipal organs from

 8     working, and all this was covered up by shady deals involving the export

 9     of wood (oak) from the Krajina, oil, and other alleged shady deals."

10             Did you experience Kojic trying to obstruct the work of the SUP

11     as described in this paragraph?

12        A.   Kojic cannot obstruct that because Kojic was not the only one

13     working in the police.  There were others around him, and it is certain

14     that the police, including Kojic, tried to prevent things that were

15     happening at the time.  In addition to the selling of oaks there were the

16     instances of theft from the companies that were closed down at that time

17     and also things were being stolen from private individuals, including

18     tractors and other agricultural equipment.  I can't say that he was the

19     one who tried to obstruct things.  It was the police that did their job,

20     that tried to uphold the law.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Can we turn now, please, to P554.  Could we go to

23     page 5 of the English version and 5 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And the paragraph I'm interested in, Mr. Bogunovic, is paragraph

25     24.  If you just read that to yourself quickly to remind yourself of it.

Page 6038

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   The sentence I'm particularly interested in or the two sentences

 3     are those at the end:

 4             "After the fall of Vukovar, I requested reinforce for the police

 5     force and in fact 300 police officers arrived from Serbia in Vukovar to

 6     control the situation because the JNA had left.  I tried to restore some

 7     order and legality and control from the authority."

 8             Could you explain or elaborate on that, please.

 9        A.   When the JNA left Vukovar killings started.  People were being

10     killed irrespective of their ethnicity or religion.  It didn't matter

11     whether they were Serbs, Croats, Hungarians.  If they had property, be it

12     a good vehicle or some money, they would be killed.  There were

13     robberies, murders of civilians and residents of the area.  Things were

14     being transported across the border to Serbia.  At one point I asked for

15     reinforcement for the police to come over from Serbia in order to help us

16     restore order and prevent further murders and robberies.

17        Q.   Who did you request those reinforcements from?

18        A.   We had a meeting.  I don't remember when.  Goran was with me.  We

19     had a meeting.  I believe that it was in Belgrade.  I'm not sure.  No,

20     I'm sure it was in Belgrade.  But I don't know who we met with.  I asked

21     those people to help us overcome the situation and restore order.

22        Q.   And when the 300 police officers arrived, whose command did they

23     fall under?

24        A.   They fell under the command of the men who were in charge of the

25     police in Slavonia and Baranja.  They placed themselves at our service

Page 6039

 1     when they arrived.

 2        Q.   Were they of any assistance in overcoming the situation and

 3     restoring order?

 4        A.   Yes, they were.  First of all, they established order on the

 5     borders.  Whenever somebody wanted to transport something across the

 6     border, they had to prove the origin of those goods.  Also, they

 7     established check-points in the villages and in Vukovar and they checked

 8     passengers and vehicles and they were of a major assistance in that

 9     respect.

10        Q.   Were their duties restricted to police officer duties, I mean,

11     traditional police officer duties of detecting and preventing crime?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware of an organisation called the Serbian

14     National Security formed under Goran Hadzic's control?

15        A.   I knew of that but that organisation was under the personal

16     control of Goran Hadzic.  Whatever they had to say, they said to him and

17     I was not in the loop.

18        Q.   Right.  This had, from what you observed, nothing to do with any

19     other member of the SBWS government, this was Goran Hadzic's

20     organisation?

21        A.   You are correct.

22        Q.   Was it disbanded by Badza after Badza arrived in the region?

23        A.   I don't think so.  I think that it continued working, and I think

24     that those men were still under the control of Goran Hadzic.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 6040

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could we turn to P553, please.  And page 15 of the

 2     English and 16 of the B/C/S.  Sorry, 17 of the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Paragraph 88.  Do you have paragraph 88, Mr. Bogunovic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Paragraph 88 describes Arkan and particular -- a particular crime

 6     committed concerning shooting people, men dead in a brickyard.  And the

 7     statement describes that Arkan committed it, or you were told that he

 8     committed this crime in retaliation for the killing of several of his men

 9     in Ernestinovo in early October.  Do you recall this?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Was it widely known that or did it become widely known that Arkan

12     had committed this crime for personal reasons?

13        A.   I already said that I had heard about Arkan who had had a

14     skirmish the day before Ernestinovo with the HVO.  He had lost three men.

15     On the following day he returned to Dalj, and he learned that there were

16     some 15 men in the brickyard, they had been brought over from Beli

17     Manastir.  He ordered the men to be taken out of the furnaces and shot.

18        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, did you hear about Arkan removing prisoners from

19     the Dalj prison and executing them around this time?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was this --

22        A.   On one occasion.

23        Q.   Sorry, go ahead, I interrupted you.

24        A.   On one occasion he took a couple of people from the prison in

25     Dalj.  They were taken away and they were shot dead.

Page 6041

 1        Q.   Did you speak to other members of the SBWS government about this

 2     crime?

 3        A.   Not only about that crime.  The government discussed the

 4     situation.  We knew that the situation was not that good.  We didn't dare

 5     talk about Arkan that much because he was in the area, and we all feared

 6     him and his men.  So we didn't discuss him much.  Not a lot was actually

 7     said about that incident as a result of that.  When we talked about Arkan

 8     and those incidents, we talked in private.

 9        Q.   And was it privately condemned by you and other members of the

10     SBWS government?

11        A.   Yes.  We did not like his conduct, we did not like what he did,

12     but we were powerless to oppose him.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could we turn now, please, to paragraph 26 of this

14     statement.  Page 6 of the English and 6 of the B/C/S.

15        Q.   "I met Jovica Stanisic several times.  I had no personal contact

16     with him.  He never told me anything about what his role was."

17             Is it right that you did not during these events speak to

18     Mr. Stanisic?

19        A.   I don't recall speaking with him.  I don't recall any

20     conversations with him.  I don't think there were any.

21        Q.   And he never told you anything about what his role was, and is it

22     correct that no one else told you what his role was either?

23        A.   At some point in time, Goran told me that Jovica was from the

24     state security but nothing other than that.  He didn't specify whether he

25     was a chief.  He just said that he was from the DB and that was it.

Page 6042

 1        Q.   And from that you understood what?

 2        A.   Well, we met other people at the time as well.  We wanted to meet

 3     anyone who could assist us, provide advice or instructions about what to

 4     do.  We wanted to meet people who could provide us with what we needed

 5     the most at the time, be it financially or in other ways.  In any case,

 6     that was the reason why we met with people from Serbia.

 7        Q.   But you knew Stanisic -- let me start that again.  Hadzic told

 8     you Stanisic was from the DB, but through these events, as you told us

 9     yesterday, you had no idea what role the DB played, if any, in the SBWS

10     in 1991 and 1992; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Looking at this paragraph again, the paragraph says:

13             "If he had to talk to anyone, he spoke to Goran Hadzic.  I met

14     him in Backa Palanka and in Novi Sad.  I went to these places to meet

15     Goran Hadzic but those were not official meetings with Stanisic, he just

16     happened to be there."

17             Now, how do you know that if Stanisic had to talk to anyone he

18     spoke to Goran Hadzic?  Did that come from Hadzic?

19        A.   Yes, it did.

20        Q.   So Goran Hadzic mentioned to you that, for example, he had gone

21     to Belgrade and met with Stanisic, is that what he was saying at the

22     time?

23        A.   He didn't say that only to me, he shared it the other members of

24     the government as well.

25        Q.   But from what you told us at no time did Hadzic inform you what

Page 6043

 1     Stanisic had said or what Stanisic had instructed or anything like that?

 2        A.   He didn't specify any instructions.  He only said that he had met

 3     with Stanisic and that they had spoken.  He would then convey specific

 4     instructions about how to go about solving our problems the way that

 5     would be favourable for us.

 6        Q.   But wasn't Hadzic saying that those instructions were coming from

 7     Milosevic?

 8        A.   Well, yes, for the most part he would say he had been to see

 9     Milosevic and that he had arranged with him what needs to be done and

10     what would be the best course to take for us.  It happened frequently

11     that he said he had seen Milosevic and received instructions from him.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just take instructions, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14                           [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Sorry for the delay, Mr. Bogunovic.  Just to pick up where we

17     left off, is it right -- well, let me ask you it in a more open way.  Can

18     you recall any instruction whatsoever from either Stanisic or anyone from

19     the Serbian DB in relation to your work within the SBWS?

20        A.   I cannot recall any instructions from Stanisic since I didn't

21     know who the man was.  I was introduced to him by Badza with whom I had

22     more frequent contacts, but before meeting him in Backa Palanka and Novi

23     Sad, I had not met him before.

24        Q.   Just so that you understand our position, Mr. Bogunovic,

25     Mr. Stanisic has no recollection of meeting you in Backa Palanka.  Are

Page 6044

 1     you sure that your recollection is correct?

 2        A.   I recall having met him at Ljubo Novakovic's place in Backa

 3     Palanka.  I don't know how long the meeting lasted, but I do recall that

 4     particular encounter.  I remember him being there.

 5        Q.   Okay.  But in any event, whoever's recollection is correct, from

 6     what you recall, Stanisic didn't say anything but simply sat and took

 7     notes?

 8        A.   Yes.  I don't remember him saying anything.  There were several

 9     of us there and the municipal president of Backa Palanka spoke the most,

10     as well as some people from Novi Sad, but I didn't hear Jovica Stanisic

11     utter a single word.

12        Q.   The meeting that you recall was focused on and concerned with the

13     plight of refugees in the Backa Palanka region; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   It's correct, isn't it, that you never saw Stanisic in the SBWS

16     region in November of 1991?

17        A.   Yes, it is correct.

18        Q.   And you never heard that he had attended a meeting in November of

19     1991 involving members of the SBWS government?

20        A.   Yes, I don't recall that.

21        Q.   And you were never told that Stanisic attended prior to the fall

22     of Vukovar and screamed and shouted at members of the SBWS government

23     berating them for failing to take Vukovar?  You never heard about that;

24     am I right?

25        A.   No, I didn't hear that.

Page 6045

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'm almost finished, Mr. Bogunovic.  I just wanted to

 2     ask you about something else.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Please could we go to P554.  Page 4 of the English

 4     and 5 of the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Paragraph 18, Mr. Bogunovic.  "My impression is that Hadzic was

 6     controlled by the authorities in Belgrade.  As well I was appointed as

 7     minister of the interior but the decisions regarding my police force were

 8     taken also in Belgrade by others."

 9             Am I correct that -- no, let me strike that.

10             What do you mean by that?  Was this just an impression you gained

11     that Hadzic was influenced by authorities in Belgrade?  Is that a more

12     accurate way of putting it?

13        A.   It wasn't only my impression.  Goran Hadzic, as I've said,

14     frequently went to Belgrade.  He often went to see Milosevic and upon his

15     return he would tell us, this is no good, we should go about it

16     differently, and he would say that we were to keep in mind that we would

17     be called to task about what we are doing because he had to go to

18     Belgrade and explain to them what is going on.  I gathered from that that

19     what I stated in the statement is correct.

20        Q.   Right.  Would you agree that rather than Hadzic being controlled,

21     he was influenced by authorities in Belgrade?

22        A.   Yes, I would agree.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, this question has now been put twice to

25     the witness and the answer is different than the first time he says no,

Page 6046

 1     the way in which I said it in my statement is right.  And the second time

 2     you ask him he comes to a different conclusion.  So I'd rather explore

 3     that.

 4             Mr. Bogunovic.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash makes a distinction between being

 7     influenced and being controlled.  Now, the difference apparently is that

 8     when Mr. Hadzic came back from Belgrade, did he tell you that he listened

 9     to Belgrade and made up his mind himself, whether or not following what

10     was suggested to him, or did he give you the impression that he was

11     expected to follow any proposals or suggestions and that he was not

12     expected to do it in any way different from what was suggested or

13     proposed to him?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to say that both was the

15     case.  Sometimes he would say plainly, we have to do this, and that he

16     was requested to do so.  However, there were other cases when he said it

17     would be wise to do it because it is believed that it will be good for

18     us.  So both instances took place.  There were orders and the other.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean, have I understood you well, that you

20     gained the impression that Mr. Hadzic was not always free to act in

21     accordance with his own views if they were different from Belgrade and

22     that sometimes he was not free to choose his own options but had to

23     follow what was the preference of Belgrade?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he had to do what was

25     expected of him and what he was ordered to do in Belgrade.

Page 6047

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Did it depend on the subject whether you gained the

 2     impression that he could follow his own views or whether he was expected

 3     to do what was proposed or suggested to him?  Did it make any difference

 4     on what kind of subjects they had been talking about?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my impression that the issue

 6     in question was important.  It depended on what needed to be done.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you give us examples of issues where you

 8     thought that he was free to take a different route as suggested by

 9     Belgrade, and an example of another subject where he felt that he was not

10     free to choose his own preferred route?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can tell you this:  There

12     were cases when Goran returned from Belgrade and said that what we had

13     done thus far and the way we followed can no longer be, and that things

14     needed to change.  We were expected to follow what we had been told.  To

15     us it was a sign that we had to accept it, but there were also situations

16     in which he said that things were proposed to him but that we would

17     continue along our designated line.  Sometimes we accepted that and

18     frequently we had no other choice.  We were dependent on Belgrade's and

19     Serbia's assistance, hence, we had no room to make our own decision or to

20     reject anything.  My removal from the ministerial position was on the

21     proposal of Radovan Stojicic, Badza.  At first my colleagues refused to

22     have me removed but at the next government session, Goran called me aside

23     and he said, it's better that you left.  We need to do this because it is

24     requested of us.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  From whom -- by whom?

Page 6048

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was requested or the way Badza

 2     said was that there was an order for him to ask for my removal.  It came

 3     from Belgrade.  Goran had been summoned there whereupon he was told that

 4     I needed to be removed.  I don't know whether he went to see Milosevic or

 5     someone else, but that was it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, P2669.  65 ter, sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I wasn't aware that we were already in that

 9     number as far as P exhibits are concerned.

10             MR. JORDASH:  No, sorry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Page 1, thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, would you just have a look at this which appears

14     to be minutes from a session of the government of SBWS held on the 28th

15     of November, 1991, in Erdut.  I'd like you to, if you would, just take a

16     few moments to read it through.  Please indicate when you've finished the

17     particular page.

18        A.   I'm done with the first page.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Go to the second page then, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm done with the second page.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Go to 3.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm done reading the third page.

23             MR. JORDASH:

24        Q.   Let's leave it there.  That's probably enough for my purposes.

25     Do you recall this session?

Page 6049

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Was this type of decision-making as reflected in these minutes

 3     typical of a government meeting of that time?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If we go back to page 1, the Ilija Kojic is missing from this

 6     session.  Do you recall that?

 7        A.   That's true, he wasn't there.

 8        Q.   And was there a reason for that, do you know?

 9        A.   I believe that he was wounded and that he was hopitalised in

10     Belgrade at the time.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And on the agenda 2 was -- is report and crime in the

12     Serbian district and proposed measures to counter it.  Is it correct that

13     the government, the SBWS were making the principal decisions about how to

14     deal with crime in the SBWS region?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could I ask you to clarify the question

17     about type of decision-making.  I've got no idea, apparently the witness

18     has, but I've got no idea what type, is it that you follow an agenda, is

19     it that you give a brief explanation of the decision-making in the

20     minutes, but what is the type of decision-making you are referring to?

21             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I was coming to that, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but the witness has already said yes.  I have

23     no idea how to understand --

24             MR. JORDASH:  I was hoping to elaborate on that with --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you think the witness would have

Page 6050

 1     understood -- we could ask the witness.

 2             Mr. Bogunovic, Mr. Jordash asked you whether this was, this type

 3     of decision-making, was that typical of a government meeting.  Could you

 4     tell us how you understood that question?  What type of decision-making

 5     Mr. Jordash, as you understood him, was referring to.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Jordash please switch off his mike

 7     when he is not using it.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind the decisions based

 9     on the information that was presented at that meeting.  The information

10     was provided by people who lived in the area and who either came to me or

11     to Hadzic to convey that information to us.  We in our turn presented

12     that information at government sessions.  It was already close to the end

13     of the war and the individuals who were there and who committed thefts or

14     any other criminal acts, their doings were put on the agenda, we

15     discussed that point on the agenda, and we made decisions based on our

16     discussions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that what you had in your mind, Mr. Jordash?

18             MR. JORDASH:  It is, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, whether that's the type of decision-making is

20     still unclear to me but, okay, at least we now understand what was on

21     your mind.  If you want to further explore the matter, please feel free

22     to do so.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Can we go to page 2, please.

24        Q.   And item 2 there, please have a look at that:

25             "In addition to the written report, he sent Milorad Trosic,

Page 6051

 1     district public Prosecutor, emphasised that after the liberation of

 2     Borovo, Naselje, and Vukovar, problems had become even more pressing and

 3     that the situation was deteriorating.  There is a high incidence of

 4     speculation, tax evasions and other crimes which is having a serious

 5     effect."

 6             And then item 2 reports that these subjects were discussed

 7     amongst various people including yourself and Radovan Stojicic.  Do you

 8     recall this?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   So is this correct what you were saying a moment ago is that

11     information concerning crimes in villages and towns would be given to the

12     government in written reports; is that correct so far?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The government including Stojicic and yourself would then discuss

15     these issues and then decisions would be made on how to deal with the

16     situation of crimes on the ground.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  Objection just in the context of this report.  It

19     very clearly states with respect to this specific item in the last line

20     of item 2 regarding the decisions.  I believe we are talking about

21     something general versus specific document.  If the questions could

22     accurately reflect what the specific document from the witness states.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I'm extrapolating from the document and

24     asking the witness to discuss generally how decisions were made.  I'm not

25     sure what Mr. Weber is suggesting I should do other than stick to the

Page 6052

 1     document, which I'm not prepared to do.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Just for the record, the document last line, item 2

 3     says, "no particular decisions were adopted."

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a bit of a problem is, Mr. Jordash, that's of

 5     course is puzzling me, I see this document now for the first time that of

 6     course some of the matters apparently discussed are not decided at all,

 7     whereas others are decided in that someone will form an opinion about it.

 8     So to extrapolate from this document seems not to be easy because it

 9     covers quite different subjects.  The level of decision-making is quite

10     different as well.  So if you want to extrapolate from this document, if

11     you want to be clear, it should be fully transparent what you are

12     extrapolating and clearly then put that to the witness.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Your Honour, this is what I've done.  I've

14     said, so is this correct that what you were saying a moment ago is that

15     information including crimes in villages and towns would be given to the

16     government in written reports.  The witness agreed.  The government

17     including Stojicic and yourself would then discuss these issues, and then

18     my learned friend jumped up.  So I was looking at the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we are talking about decision-making, and I

20     think Mr. Weber is right that sometimes and say no decisions were made.

21     So to extrapolate a decision-making process where -- or if you would

22     include that these matters were sometimes or often not decided at all, if

23     I see item 2, no particular decisions were adopted with regard to the

24     report.  So that means that is the absence of decision-making.

25             MR. JORDASH:  But I am a not suggesting that decisions were

Page 6053

 1     always made.  I'm saying, is this how decisions were made when they were

 2     made.  I'm not suggesting -- of course decisions were not always made,

 3     but of course there has to be a process by which decisions were made.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Item 3, conclusion, the Ministry of Justice and

 5     Administration shall give its opinion regarding this.  What decisions

 6     then are you actually referring to as they appear in this document, say

 7     look at this, look at that, look at that, and then you can extrapolate

 8     from them.  No problem with that.  Could you point at the decisions you

 9     had in your mind.  Or is it about the invalids which later appear in the

10     minutes, I don't think that you are focussing on them very much.

11             MR. JORDASH:  I don't have a particular decision in mind.  I'm

12     trying to --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but if you want to extrapolate something, then

14     at least you have -- there must be a clear basis from where you start

15     extrapolating.  Now, if that is about decision-making, that means that we

16     need a couple of decisions in order to start extrapolating or are you, or

17     do you just want to point at the way in which matters were discussed,

18     which is not decision-making but is the way of how the meeting was held.

19     Mr. Weber is right that it should be more transparent in what you are

20     actually using as your basis for, as you said, the extrapolation.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Well, the basis I was using -- in item 2

22     information is provided, a discussion is had.  In this particular

23     instance it appears a decision was not made.  My questions were designed

24     to ask the witness, is this the process by which decisions were made.  In

25     this instance no decision was made but that doesn't in any way --

Page 6054

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, don't you think that that could confuse to say

 2     is that the usual way of making decisions then you give an example of

 3     where no decisions were made.  That might -- is this to say that usually

 4     if decisions were needed that no decisions were made.  That's also a way

 5     of extrapolating.  Is that what you -- the extrapolation is -- are you

 6     putting to the witness that usually where decisions or where matters were

 7     reported that no decisions were made?  Is that what you are asking him?

 8             MR. JORDASH:  No, I was asking him, is this, as reflected in item

 9     2, the way that the government went from information to the point of

10     decisions or non-decisions.  Either way.  That's the point.  The point is

11     made, and it's the same point in my submission.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

13             MR. JORDASH:  If Your Honours --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You could argue on that.  Let's ask then the

15     witness.

16             Mr. Bogunovic, was it usual that once reports were discussed that

17     no decisions were made?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were some points on the

19     agenda whereby information was heard but no decisions were made.

20     Sometimes it did happen, a proposal was put forth for the decision to be

21     made by the Assembly, which was authorised to make them.  Sometimes the

22     government made decisions on the information we were provided.  This is

23     just information.  There was information that was discussed, and there

24     was information that was acted upon by way of were making a decision.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So I do understand that if any reports were

Page 6055

 1     put on the table, that this resulted in either deciding on the matter or

 2     not deciding on the matter, is that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There could have been a discussion

 4     without any decision or alternatively decisions were made at the end of

 5     such discussions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And sometimes though the matter was not

 7     discussed at all, is that also understood well?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was always a discussion.

 9     However, sometimes information was discussed without any decision.  There

10     are also points on the agenda which called for decisions, and we did make

11     them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Sometimes even without discussion, is that

13     well understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if you want to explore the matter

16     further, but of course, it's not clear to me what way -- what do we learn

17     from this, the Chamber of course is eager to understand fully what you

18     want to demonstrate by it.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I'll try to bring the point some focus.  If I --

20     thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, you've just said two things.  You've said there was

22     always discussion and then in response to His Honour Judge Orie, you said

23     you agreed with the honourable judge that sometimes decisions were made

24     without discussion.  Was there discussion for decisions made at the

25     government sessions or not?

Page 6056

 1        A.   There were such things on the agenda where only proposal was

 2     given for adoption, and there was no need for a discussion, things were

 3     adopted and it all depended on the importance of the matter at hand.  In

 4     other words, not every decision could be made by the government and

 5     likewise, there were some points on the agenda which were proposals for

 6     adoption and adoptions were indeed made.

 7        Q.   Would you agree that there was always discussion about how to

 8     deal with crime in the SBWS region, crime against civilians?

 9        A.   That was the most sensitive issues that we discussed.  We had to

10     discuss it, of course.  Usually such discussions involved several

11     ministers, the prime minister.  I would say that over half the number of

12     ministers participated in the discussion because it was the most

13     sensitive issue, and it was the matter of life and death for the citizens

14     who resided in the area.

15        Q.   Right.  And these discussions led to decisions by the SBWS

16     government as to how to protect the local civilians, is this correct?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  I believe that -- can we just have it clear, I see

19     the witness is still looking at the document in front of him that says no

20     decisions were adopted.  If we could have some distinction between, are

21     we talking about Assembly minutes and making of a decision?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's, of course, the -- outside the whole of the

23     problem.  The matter, the fact that no decision was reflected here or

24     even that no decision was made does not finally mean that never a

25     decision was made on the matter and that again, Mr. Jordash, makes it so

Page 6057

 1     important to know exactly what is our starting point for extrapolating.

 2     If you say is it what we find here does it reflect what happened at those

 3     meetings, if it does, then at least on some points no decisions were

 4     made.  At least not after the matter had been discussed on the basis of

 5     those reports.  Perhaps elsewhere, other time, other place, I do not

 6     know.  But let's try to be as factual as possible and not to get

 7     confused.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, I'm having real difficulty

 9     understanding how to approach the issue.  I'm simply trying to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps let's be very practical.  I may have a

11     solution for you, Mr. Jordash, which is the following:  We first take a

12     break and since I cannot continue to hear this case after the break and

13     since my colleagues indicated to me that they thought it would be in the

14     interest of justice to continue, you may have less problems after the

15     break.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, Mr. Weber still would be here.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, finally, Mr. Jordash, I'm your problem,

18     not Mr. Weber.  We will take a break first, perhaps you'll give it some

19     time to think over, and I might briefly discuss with my colleagues who

20     will take over after the break what was my problem and we'll then see

21     whether they have a similar problem, yes or no.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break, and we resume at five minutes

24     past 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

Page 6058

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Let us resume the session in

 3     French and in the absence of Judge Orie pursuant to Rule 15 bis of the

 4     Rules of Procedure.  Before we start, there are two aspects we need to

 5     deal with.  First of all, I would like to remind the Defence that they

 6     have another 20 minutes for both Defence counsels as yesterday the court

 7     had decided to grant an overall amount of time of three hours for the

 8     Defence cross-examination.  You've already used up 2 hours and 40

 9     minutes.  This may raise a problem unless Mr. Petrovic doesn't have any

10     questions.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is a problem.  It

12     is possible that we misunderstood Your Honours' decision.  However, I

13     believe there is a basis to perhaps revisit that decision because I

14     believe my learned friend has put relevant questions only, and I believe

15     my questions will be too.  I would kindly ask that you revisit your

16     decision to explore further the option offered by Judge Orie yesterday.

17     He said that if the questions posed are deemed relevant, that the Chamber

18     would reconsider the time-limit.  I would kindly ask you to consider

19     that, and at this moment I can tell you that I will need at least an hour

20     and a quarter.  I will try to cut it short as much as possible and to

21     focus on the most important things, but I would kindly ask that you

22     revisit your decision particularly in view of the fact that the position

23     yesterday was not perfectly clear in the sense of how much time we might

24     get.

25             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Jordash, how long will you

Page 6059

 1     need?

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Finish in five minutes, Your Honours.  May I also

 3     endorse Mr. Petrovic's comments and just also highlight that some time

 4     was taken up by His Honour Judge Orie's questions and also the lengthy

 5     discussion concerning the objection, so I would also throw that into the

 6     general balance.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Jordash, you will

 9     need another three minutes, and Mr. Petrovic, the Court grants you one

10     hour.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Jordash, the floor is yours.

13     As regards the controversy before the break, since this is not really

14     clear to the Court, you are entitled to ask your questions.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, I want to deal with this very quickly.  Would you

17     agree that the decisions concerning the setting up of police forces and

18     protecting civilians were exclusively made by the government of the SBWS

19     as opposed to having anything do with Milosevic?

20        A.   Yes, I agree that the government made such decisions and that we

21     consulted amongst ourselves about the best way to do that.  Such

22     decisions were made at the sessions of the government.

23        Q.   Based on local information collected at the behest of the SBWS

24     government; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 6060

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender P -- sorry, may I tender Rule 65 ter

 3     2669, Your Honours.

 4             MR. WEBER:  No objections.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This document is admitted into

 6     evidence.  Could you give it a reference number, Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D76.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Quickly ... Your Honours, this was --

 9     the exhibit we've just tendered is an exhibit was P568 marked for

10     identification.  I'm getting a nod from the Prosecution too.

11             MR. WEBER:  Apologise, we tendered a group of 12 documents

12     yesterday, this was one of the 12 documents, so I had forgotten also that

13     it received an MFI number at that time.

14             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Why was that -- why was it MFI'd?

15     Why could it not be admitted completely?  I don't quite remember.

16             MR. WEBER:  I believe that there was some guidance on wanting

17     additional information in the form of a bar table as to the relevance of

18     each of the documents in their sections that was provided by the Chamber

19     to the Prosecution yesterday.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So I suppose it could be admitted

21     without any conditions now.  So the document is admitted into evidence

22     completely.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, I've got to be extremely quick now, so I want to

Page 6061

 1     ask you about a comment you made in your second statement P554 where you

 2     stated that Stanisic was the link between Milosevic and Arkan and Badza.

 3     Do you recall making that comment?

 4        A.   I remember a conversation between Hadzic and me when we discussed

 5     Badza and his conduct as well as his work.  Goran told me then that the

 6     link between Badza and Milosevic was Jovica Stanisic, those were his

 7     words, and I can't say anything more than that.  That's what he told me.

 8        Q.   So you are not suggesting there was a link between Stanisic and

 9     Arkan?  You are not suggesting that; is that correct?

10             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  That was not the question that was

11     originally posed.  If counsel would like to put the statement to him and

12     have the witness comment.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] It would be easier to provide the

14     witness with the exact reference where this comment is made.

15             MR. JORDASH:  P554 on the screen, please.  At page 4 of the

16     English and page 4 of the -- page 5 of the B/C/S.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, apologies to the

18     Chamber and my learned friend, but we no longer have e-court on the

19     screen.  I don't know whether this is only our problem or does everyone

20     in the courtroom have the same problem?

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] There seem to be problems with

23     e-court and it's not possible to display the documents for the moment.

24     Now, we are talking about the witness statement of February the 8th,

25     2007, and it's paragraph 18 in English, if I'm not mistaken.

Page 6062

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] For the sake of Mr. Petrovic for

 3     him to be able to follow the deliberations and for the witness.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And before you proceed, D76 has

 6     become P568.  Exhibit P568.

 7             You may ask your question, Mr. Jordash.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, the statement says at paragraph 18:

10             "Slobodan Milosevic controlled Hadzic through Arkan and Badza,

11     and Stanisic was the link between Milosevic and Arkan and Badza."

12             Is it the case that you base that comment on something that

13     Hadzic once told you?

14        A.   Yes.  I based that on Hadzic's words.

15        Q.   But throughout 1991 and 1992, you personally saw nothing which

16     corroborated that assertion by Hadzic; is that correct?

17        A.   I had no occasion to see that myself.  I can't say anything other

18     than what he had conveyed to me, Hadzic.

19        Q.   And from what you said a moment ago, what Hadzic in fact said to

20     you was that Stanisic was the link between Milosevic and Badza; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   This is what Hadzic told me, and I shared it with you, yes,

23     that's correct.

24        Q.   And then you assumed -- you made the assumption that that

25     relationship included Arkan; is that fair?

Page 6063

 1        A.   As far as Arkan is concerned, he could frequently be seen with

 2     Badza.  Based on that fact that they were together frequently, I made the

 3     assumption.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  I've got nothing

 5     further.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you, I was going to stop

 7     you.

 8             Mr. Petrovic, you have the floor.

 9             Mr. Bogunovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic as

10     the counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bogunovic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   In your statement you say that at some point in time you were

16     assigned an office in Sid.  Who provided you with that office and when,

17     if you recall?

18        A.   I got an office towards the end of August.  The municipality of

19     Sid secured the premises so that I could locate my headquarters there.

20        Q.   In your statement when discussing Sid, you also mentioned a

21     person by the name of Petkovic.  As far as I understand, he was a colonel

22     with the JNA.  Can you tell us who Colonel Petkovic is and what was his

23     position?

24        A.   Ljubisa Petkovic was a JNA colonel.  He had a security function

25     with the army.

Page 6064

 1        Q.   In what unit?  What establishment?

 2        A.   I can't say that off the cuff.  I really don't know.  I don't

 3     think I knew even then, but I did meet with him for a number of

 4     consultations or meetings, and he provided a link between Sid and the

 5     surrounding villages such as Mirkovci and Negoslavci.

 6        Q.   In your statement of 2003 which is P553 in paragraph 17,

 7     concerning Sid, it says:  "As for Sid, Colonel Petkovic occasionally

 8     invited me to discuss things that were to be done."  Can you tell me what

 9     your relationship between you and Petkovic looked like?  You say that he

10     invited you to discuss things.  Did he also tell you how to go about

11     things, can you explain your relationship with him?

12        A.   Well, he suggested some things to me and at times he also issued

13     orders to me.  There were some things we jointly discussed in order to

14     try to find the best possible means to achieve our goal.

15        Q.   Let's discuss the category of issues whereupon he issued you with

16     orders.  Can you tell me what kind of things did Colonel Petkovic order

17     you to do?

18        A.   Well, I'll use an example.  He ordered me to go to the village of

19     Lovas to tell the White Eagles to leave it within the next 24 hours.  If

20     they refused, I was to tell them that he would be forced to arrest them

21     and disarm them.

22        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, did you comply with that order of his?

23        A.   I did.  I got in touch with Mr. Jovic who was their commander at

24     the time and indeed they withdrew from Lovas the next day.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.

Page 6065

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter number

 2     3910.  I can't see it in e-court, but I hope it can be shown to the

 3     witness.  Your Honour, I don't know whether you will be able to follow

 4     unless your e-court is working.  Unfortunately I don't have a hard copy.

 5     65 ter 3910.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] The problem being, Mr. Petrovic,

 8     is that we can -- we do see the document on our screens, but the public

 9     cannot see the documents on e-court, which is a problem in a way.  Would

10     you be able to wait a couple of minutes because the technicians will be

11     here in a couple of minutes.  Would you be able to perhaps put questions

12     which do not involve the documents, which do not involve e-court

13     documents?

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm concerned with

15     you being able to see the document.  As far as I'm concerned, this is a

16     public document, and we can continue.  I only want you to be able to see

17     it and perhaps we can broadcast it later for the public.  If you can see

18     it, I believe it would be wise to simply continue.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Weber, what do you think about

21     this since the public will not be able to see the document?  What is your

22     opinion on this matter?

23             MR. WEBER:  If I could just check one thing very quickly.  Your

24     Honour, I think for the time being I see that this was part of our first

25     bar table motion filed on the 23rd November, 2009, and there may be some

Page 6066

 1     outstanding protective measures with respect to this document, so I think

 2     it might be best to not broadcast it at this time anyway and proceed.

 3     Sorry, it took me a second to check that.

 4             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  This does

 5     resolve the problem.  In fact, you may continue then, we do have access

 6     to the document ourselves.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The English booth cannot

 9     see the document in e-court.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, have a look at the document.  It comes from the

12     first military district issued by Lieutenant-General Zivo Toponovic

13     [phoen].  Have you been able to see it, to view it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Paragraph 1, please.  It says that units are ordered to establish

16     full control in the area of responsibility of those units.  Particular

17     attention needs to be paid to --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Petrovic kindly slow down when

19     reading.

20             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, would you please

21     slow down.  The interpreters do not have access to the document, so you

22     would have to slow down slightly and read more slowly.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.  I'm

24     rushing because of time constraints, but this actually does not work in

25     my favour, I fully understand that.

Page 6067

 1        Q.   I'll read it out again.  Establish full control within the AORs

 2     of the units.  Particular attention needs to be paid to the functioning

 3     of the military authorities in all settlements and any influence on the

 4     part of local authorities should be disallowed pending full civilian

 5     control of the area.

 6             Mr. Bogunovic, the contents of this order, do they reflect your

 7     knowledge with regard to the position of army commands vis-a-vis civilian

 8     authorities during the relevant period of time?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So military authorities dominated in full in all segments

11     important for the carrying out of operations and security in the

12     territory; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Look at paragraph 2, please.  Does it say precisely what Colonel

15     Petkovic ordered you to do?

16        A.   It does.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And now look at paragraph 5 in the same document and

18     tell me, do you know if this part of this order has ever been executed,

19     and it refers to the establishment of the military district and military

20     departments in the villages and towns in Western Srem and Eastern

21     Slavonia?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

25     admitted either as a Prosecution document or as a Defence document.

Page 6068

 1             MR. WEBER:  No objections.  I believe it's been tendered by the

 2     Defence.

 3             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  So we have a Defence

 4     document, and this document will be admitted into evidence.  Would you

 5     please give it a number.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit D76

 7     under seal.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, could you briefly tell us, if you know, of course,

10     what is the area of responsibility of the military unit?  What does that

11     term imply?

12        A.   An area of responsibility is an area where troops are deployed,

13     or rather, an area where troops are present and for which troops are

14     responsible.  Anything that happens in such an area has to be reported to

15     the army.  The army has to be aware of what is going on.

16        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, at the relevant time in October 1991, were there

17     any indicia that a paramilitary unit committed crime in the territory of

18     the village of Lovas; do you know that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, is it correct that based on such information, the

21     Yugoslav People's Army carried out an investigation about what had

22     happened in the area?

23        A.   Yes.  The JNA carried out an investigation.  That's why I was

24     issued an order to make all the paramilitary formations leave Lovas

25     within the next 24 hours.

Page 6069

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  In other words, either you or anybody

 2     else were not involved in an investigation.  An investigation was carried

 3     out but the military investigative organ; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Just briefly tell me, please, if you know, do you know in the

 6     autumn of 1991, was there still the regional SUP of the autonomous

 7     province of Vojvodina in existence, or in other words, was the

 8     organisational schematic or the organisation of the SUP kept as it was in

 9     the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia previously?

10        A.   Yes, I think so.

11        Q.   That means that the provincial SUP of Vojvodina was autonomous

12     with regard to the organs of the interior or rather with the MUP of the

13     Republic of Serbia in Belgrade, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I have a few more questions with this regard or with

16     regard to the Yugoslav People's Army.  When were the elements of the

17     Zemin Corps transferred to Erdut, Dalj, and the area around there?

18        A.   I can't tell you exactly.  As far as I can remember I believe

19     that that was in late July or early August.

20        Q.   Do you know which unit of the JNA were at the time which was the

21     summer or autumn 1991 deployed in the territory of Baranja?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, when was the Guard's Brigade deployed in the

24     southern part of the region, if you know?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, that happened around the 20th of

Page 6070

 1     September, 1991.

 2        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, do you know what the OG South was?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Could you tell us, please, Mr. Bogunovic, when was the circle

 5     closed around the city of Vukovar?  In other words, when was it

 6     surrounded from the north and from the south?  When did that happen?

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, that happened sometime in the month of

 8     October.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We've been referring to the Guards Brigade here.

10     Could you -- and accompanying units.  Could you please tell us something

11     about the strength of those units, what equipment they had, what kind of

12     a military formation it was?  Very briefly if you know something or if

13     you saw something?

14        A.   As far as that is concerned, I can't tell you much.  I was not

15     there when they were deployed, I could not see how big the unit was and

16     what equipment they had at their disposal.

17        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Bogunovic.  You were in the southern

18     part of the area.  You hail from Negoslavci, your office was in Sid which

19     means that you moved south of the city of Vukovar in the relevant period?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is it true that the Yugoslav People's Army on the 7th of May,

22     1991 sent its tank units and took both parts of the 25th of May bridge

23     between Backa Palanka and Ilok?

24        A.   As far as I remember that's correct.

25        Q.   Could you please tell us according to the best of your

Page 6071

 1     recollection, is it correct that the Yugoslav People's Army had their

 2     first flights in Croatia in Ilok in [indiscernible] on the 7th of July

 3     1991?

 4        A.   I can't remember that.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, is it true that towards the end of July 1991, 50

 6     tanks were deployed in the vicinity of Ilok together with some other

 7     armoured vehicles of the Yugoslav People's Army and that they were

 8     getting closer to Ilok at the beginning of May 1991?

 9        A.   I know that there were heavy artillery deployed around Ilok

10     including tanks, but I don't know their numbers.  I didn't see how many

11     there were, but I did see some pieces of heavy artillery deployed around

12     Ilok.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that on the 26th of September, 1991, the

14     Yugoslav People's Army issued an ultimatum to armed formations in the

15     village of Lovas and two days later in the village of Babska [phoen].

16     According to that ultimatum they were supposed to surrender their

17     weapons?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the Yugoslav People's Army at the

20     beginning of October 1991 issued an ultimatum to the armed formations

21     which were deployed in the town of Ilok, it was the same ultimatum

22     according to which they were supposed to surrender and surrender their

23     weapons?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you know that at the beginning of October 1991, a commission

Page 6072

 1     from the city of Ilok engaged in daily negotiations with the

 2     representatives of Novi Sad and Belgrade corps of the JNAs in Backa

 3     Palanka and Sid regarding the further destiny of the city of Ilok and its

 4     inhabitants?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know that on the 12th of October a decision was taken by

 7     the city Assembly of the city of Ilok to hold a referendum, and at that

 8     referendum a decision would be reached as to whether the ultimatum issued

 9     by the JNA would be complied with?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you know what the results of the referendum were, if you know?

12        A.   I know that a decision was taken to let the military know that

13     the citizens of Ilok wished to leave Ilok.

14        Q.   Is it true that on the 14th of October, 1991, in the presence of

15     Dragoljub [indiscernible] a JNA general and the representatives of the

16     European commission an agreement was dictated about the surrender of the

17     town of Ilok?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is it true that after that agreement was reached, several

20     thousand, about 8.000 people, which constituted almost an entire

21     population of Ilok on the 17 of October loaded JNA trucks and set out

22     towards Lipovac and further afield into Croatia?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is it true that very few people remained living in Ilok after

25     that and I am talking about Croatians, effectively the entire population

Page 6073

 1     in October 1991 emigrated and moved into the interior of the Republic of

 2     Croatia?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it true that none of the members of the government on which

 5     you were minister did not participate in negotiations about the

 6     resettlement of the population of Ilok in October of 1991, those

 7     negotiations involved only representatives of the JNA?

 8        A.   No, we were not there.  Only the army.  Representatives were

 9     there negotiated with the others.

10        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, is it true that, as it says in your statement,

11     that all Croats, Slovaks, and others who remained in Croatia after that

12     mass exodus in October remained in their houses until the peaceful

13     integration of Eastern Slavonia in 1997 or 1998?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bogunovic, is it correct that after the fall of

16     Ilok, certain representatives of the -- of your government demanded from

17     the JNA to assume some positions in the judiciary in the police but that

18     demand was never met; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us who issued that demand and how did the

21     JNA respond to it?

22        A.   It was the minister of justice, Vojin Susa, who told them that we

23     already had our own judiciary and the police and that we were in a

24     position to try people in Srem and Baranja.  He -- Arkan also attending

25     that meeting and Arkan was of the same opinion.  He wanted for all the

Page 6074

 1     detained persons to remain in Vukovar and to be put on trial there.

 2        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Bogunovic.  In your statement from 2003,

 3     which is P554, you say that at the beginning of December 1991, the Red

 4     Berets appeared in Ilok.  My question to you is this:  Is it true that

 5     you didn't know anything about who had sent those people and why they had

 6     been sent to the town of Ilok?

 7        A.   It is correct.  I did not have any information to that effect, or

 8     rather, I did not have any encounters with them.  I did not have an

 9     opportunity to talk to them about the situation in Ilok, the situation

10     that prevailed in Ilok at the time.

11        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, is it true that those men were billeted in a house

12     in the town of Ilok as well as in the vinery above Ilok and that as far

13     as you know they never moved from there, they never participated in any

14     combat during the relevant time?

15        A.   At the time combat operations were over, therefore, they could

16     not be engaged.  I stated that they were in a house in Ilok known as the

17     white house and they also had some of their members billeted above Ilok

18     in the vinery there, as you said.

19        Q.   Are you saying that combat operations were over at the moment

20     when the Red Berets appeared in the area; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is it true that the Red Berets were not involved in the internal

23     relations of the area as far as you know?

24        A.   As far as my work is concerned, as far as the work of my

25     colleagues and the civilian authorities in Ilok is concerned, after the

Page 6075

 1     departure of the army, they didn't get involved in what we did, in our

 2     decision-making processes, they did not have any contacts with us.  They

 3     were there, but they did not interfere in our business.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  Is it true that you never received any

 5     information about people being abused or ill-treated by the Red Berets?

 6     This is what you stated in 2007; right?

 7        A.   I stated that there was no ill treatment or --

 8             MR. WEBER:  If -- we are going a little quick.  If we could get a

 9     paragraph reference.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.  P554, paragraph

11     8, where Mr. Bogunovic said, "As far as anything else is concerned, I

12     have never received any complaints from civilians about the ill treatment

13     on the part of the Red Berets."

14        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, is it true that --

15             MR. WEBER:  I don't see that in that paragraph.  Where is it?

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 8 where it says -- in

17     the middle of that paragraph, paragraph 8.

18             MR. WEBER: [Microphone not activated] ... I see the section where

19     it says, there was a case when a woman refused to hand over -- she came

20     to Crisis Staff to complain, so I see that there's an indication of a

21     complaint.

22             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Petrovic is

23     referring to the sentence which reads as follows:  "I never received

24     information about physical abuse as committed by the Red Berets."  Is

25     that right?

Page 6076

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] It's limited.  There were never

 3     any complaints of physical abuses, but of course, there were some people

 4     complaining about other things.  Is that right?

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, you yesterday mentioned three or four cases of

 7     other complaints concerning vehicles; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Here in your statement it is mentioned that a Croatian lady

10     complained because somebody wanted to take her vehicle.  She came to

11     complain.  I told her not to give them their vehicle, and she kept the

12     vehicle; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And those are the only examples of complaints about the conduct

15     of those people while they were billeted in the territory of Ilok; right?

16        A.   I don't remember.  There may have been some other petty things,

17     but there was nothing important.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  A reference is also made to those men

19     being armed.  Mr. Bogunovic, is it true that at the time which is the end

20     of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, almost everybody in Ilok and the

21     general area of Ilok was armed?

22        A.   Yes, there was a lot of weapons.  People carried weapons, people

23     had weapons.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.

25             Mr. Bogunovic, is it true that you never saw Franko Simatovic,

Page 6077

 1     aka Frenki, either in Ilok or in the territory of Eastern Slavonia?

 2        A.   No, I never met him, never in my whole life.

 3        Q.   Is it true, Mr. Bogunovic, as it is stated in paragraph 7 of your

 4     2007 statement that you didn't know whether there was just one commander

 5     of the Red Berets or were there several commanders of Red Berets in Ilok

 6     at that time?

 7        A.   I didn't know that, I really knew very little about them.

 8        Q.   As far as I understand, you had several encounters with members

 9     of the Red Berets.  Is it correct that on such occasions those people

10     obviously didn't tell you anything about why they were there and the way

11     their unit was structured?  They also didn't mention who was in command?

12        A.   No, they didn't say any of that.  None of us in civilian bodies

13     knew about that.

14        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, is it correct, and it is my understanding of your

15     words so far, that you did not know who this unit belonged to in

16     organisational terms?

17        A.   That is correct, I didn't know who they belonged to and who was

18     in charge.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I may have a moment, Your

20     Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, in your statement which is P554, paragraph 7, that

22     is the 2007 statement, you say that some of the Red Beret in Ilok always

23     mentioned Franko Simatovic as their boss, and I think you also mentioned

24     the word "commander."  Is it because you were not aware of the

25     relationship between Frenki and those men?

Page 6078

 1        A.   Yes, I truly didn't know whether he was their boss or commander.

 2     I was in no position to know and I still don't.

 3        Q.   Have you heard -- strike that.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document

 5     2D169.  It's a 65 ter document.  Your Honour, we don't have a translation

 6     of this document.  By your leave, I would like to ask the witness to have

 7     a look at it and to have it MFI'd.  We should make use of the presence of

 8     this witness to tell us whether he knows anything about that, and then

 9     the fate of the document should be decided upon later once we received a

10     translation.  I apologise for that, and could we please do as I propose.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, unfortunately we just got notice of this

12     document today.  So had we gotten notice about it at the beginning of

13     examination yesterday, of course I would have sat down with the language

14     assistant and we could go by that.  I do not know what the document

15     states.

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Which document are you talking

17     about?

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the heading is JSO,

19     the MUP of Krajina in Ilok, the 20th of June, 1992.  It is a report which

20     has to do with traffic control and interviews conducted.  It has to do

21     with what the witness testified about yesterday, that is why I wanted to

22     show it to him and ask him whether the contents tally with what he could

23     observe those people doing in the area of Ilok.

24             We have D68 which is also from that set, it is almost identical.

25     And I wanted to show it to the witness as well to ask him whether it

Page 6079

 1     reflects what he was able to observe.  That's all.  Perhaps to simplify

 2     matters, I can show only D68 to the witness and then we would have dealt

 3     with the problem.  So let's skip the document for which we don't have a

 4     translation and we can move on directly to D68.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's do that.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, I don't know if you have D68 before you.

 8        A.   I still don't.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We still do not have

10     access to e-court.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  We can't hear Mr. Petrovic.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, you have not been

14     translated because the interpreters couldn't hear you.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  His microphone is off.

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, your mike is off.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Apologies.  I said that it may

18     have been marked as 2D77 and forwarded as such to the Registrar for

19     witness's perusal.  Perhaps she can use that designation.  It is D68

20     otherwise.  It is a document of the 16th of June, 1992.  Please show it

21     to the witness.

22        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, do you have it?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, does what the report state reflect what you could

25     observe those people doing, the people you referred to as the Red Berets?

Page 6080

 1        A.   Yes, it does.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at

 4     another document from that set.  It is 2D79.  May it be shown to the

 5     witness, please.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, before the document

 7     is taken away, where in that document can you see a reference to the Red

 8     Berets?

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one cannot see the

10     words "Red Berets" but it does say the unit for special purposes of the

11     Krajina MUP.  In our view, these are the persons in question.  That is

12     why I asked the witness that question.  By your leave, I'd like to

13     continue.

14             May 2D79 be shown to the witness.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There seems to be a problem.  We

17     need to check whether the document is in the system.  Please bear with

18     us, Mr. Bogunovic.

19             Your Honours, do you have the document before you?  It seems our

20     screens are out again.  Here it is.  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, you saw the document.  The same question applies,

22     the contents, the traffic control activities as described in the

23     document.  Is this what you could observe members of the Red Berets doing

24     in Ilok in 1992?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6081

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

 2     this Defence document.

 3             MR. WEBER:  No objections.  We would ask since there seems to be

 4     a collection of documents here, if counsel could provide us with

 5     information as to the origin, where they are from.  It would be useful

 6     just in considering these documents is all.

 7             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, how about the origin

 8     of those documents?

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the source is a

10     potential Defence witness who provided it to us.  I am afraid I can't be

11     any more specific than that at this moment.  In any case, that person was

12     a part of the whole process and is most likely to appear here as a

13     Defence witness.

14             MR. WEBER:  I appreciate the reason that Mr. Petrovic doesn't say

15     a name on the record.  If he could just let us know after the proceedings

16     today.

17             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So the document is admitted into

18     evidence.  Can it be given, Mr. Registrar, an be exhibit number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That will be Exhibit

20     D77.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, I have a few questions left for you.  I believe

23     you were in Ilok with the justice minister, Mr. Vojin Susa; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you recall an event in early 1993 when a church was blocked

Page 6082

 1     during a search for certain persons who had allegedly taken cover in that

 2     building?

 3        A.   I don't recall that.

 4        Q.   Very well then.  Thank you.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have an excerpt

 6     from 2D166.1 shown to the witness.  I would kindly ask the witness to

 7     view it.  The booths have received a transcript.  Could we please have it

 8     played now.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, I hope we can show you this footage and then I

10     will ask you for your comment.

11        A.   Very well.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Is it normal that there's no

14     sound?

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think it

16     should be this way.  We expected to have an audio.  Now we have it.

17     Could we replay it from the start.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] From the start, please.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor:  How did the

22     representatives of the Croatian Armed Forces, whose crimes you have just

23     seen, present themselves on the eve of their surrender to the

24     representatives of the JNA?

25             Reporter:  They were sacrificed and deceived by their leadership,

Page 6083

 1     which abandoned them in the lairs of Borovo Naselje and Vukovar and

 2     ordered them to stay there and die.  With no way out, they are emerging

 3     from their mousetraps in search of salvation.  And all this from the same

 4     army, the JNA, which, until the day before, they slammed as being a

 5     Chetnik-Bolshevik occupier and for which they lay in wait perfidiously

 6     with snipers.  Several commanders, lower ranking as they now claim, were

 7     received by the commander of the Novi Sad Corps, Major-General Andrija

 8     Biorcevic.

 9             General:  We are doing our job and you're doing yours.  I feel

10     for the victims.  If you are guilty, you will answer for it; if you are

11     not guilty - this is known."

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Please stop.

13        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, were you able to view and hear what was shown?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, could you recognise General Biorcevic on the

16     screen?

17        A.   I could.

18        Q.   Could you recognise Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, immediately next

19     to him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Here we can see General Biorcevic and Arkan with Croatian

22     prisoners.  Do you recognise any of the prisoners?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, this was filmed immediately after the liberation

25     of Vukovar?

Page 6084

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   My question is this:  At the time after the liberation of Vukovar

 3     around the 20 of November 1991, did you know that a few weeks before

 4     Arkan had killed certain people in Dalj, and you've testified about that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you think that General Biorcevic could have known that?

 7        A.   Yes, he could have, but I don't know whether he knew it or not.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, did you know about very close co-operation between

 9     Biorcevic and Arkan in the territory of Eastern Slavonia and Western

10     Srem?

11        A.   No, I didn't.

12        Q.   If I put it to you that there was indeed very close co-operation

13     between the representatives of the JNA and especially General Biorcevic

14     and Arkan, would that fact explain why neither you nor any other member

15     of the government could do anything against Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, at

16     the time?

17        A.   Yes, it would.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this portion

19     of the clip be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

20             MR. WEBER:  As to the specific clip, the Prosecution does have an

21     objection.  It largely contained the narration of a reporter.  I believe

22     it's been discussed in many other exhibits throughout the case, even the

23     Prosecution has used that such narration is not admitted.  So to that

24     aspect of that audio, the Prosecution's position is that that is not

25     evidence.  If counsel is indicating he doesn't intend to rely on it as

Page 6085

 1     evidence, that's another matter.  The second thing is that there's only

 2     been a very small portion of this video displayed.  As it continues, it

 3     also has depictions of Croat captives that were kept, and I believe it's

 4     misleading the portion that's been played, as to the entire nature of the

 5     clip.  I don't know if counsel intends to submit a greater portion into

 6     evidence.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, with

 8     regard to the first objection by my learned friend, Mr. Weber, I agree,

 9     we will not be concerned with what the anchor said.  As for the second

10     part of objection, we can play the rest of the clip from the moment where

11     we left it off.  I didn't do it because of the time restrictions, so by

12     your leave, we will play the rest of the clip and then we can perhaps ask

13     for the entire clip to be admitted into evidence.

14             MR. WEBER:  I know the Chamber's process has been for the parties

15     to submit tables and so forth.  We are familiar with this video, and it

16     may be more efficient just to admit it if the Chamber wants to do that.

17     I don't know if the Chamber wants to maintain its practice, though, of

18     having the tendering party, which would be the Defence in this case, list

19     out all the relevant portions and us provide a chart

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrovic, I have a question.

22     You have played part of that video, a portion of that clip.  What you are

23     tendering is just that portion that we saw, or are you seeking to tender

24     the whole video?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that we

Page 6086

 1     should play the entire video-clip and then we would ask for the admission

 2     of the entire video-clip.  The video takes about two and a half to three

 3     minutes, and if we are allowed to do that, I believe that we will deal

 4     with any ambiguities and there will not be any need for any further

 5     explanations.  I propose to play the entire video-clip and then tender it

 6     into evidence.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the video is much longer than that.

 8     What I'm say is that the -- if they want to tender the whole video, we

 9     have no objection to the admission of the whole video, and if it's more

10     efficient for timing for Mr. Petrovic to do that, the Prosecution is not

11     opposing it, just noting for the fact that the Chamber has had a practice

12     with respect to the tendering of such a large video.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, in this

15     video-clip -- actually, the video material contains hours and hours, but

16     we obviously don't want to burden the Trial Chamber with that.  The

17     segment concerning Biorcevic, Arkan and their conversations with

18     prisoners of war is what we want to play, and the time is from 7.29 to

19     11.21 of this video material.  We don't want to tender anything else.  It

20     would not be of any benefit, and I will abide by your instructions.  I'm

21     entirely in your hands, Your Honours.

22             MR. WEBER:  I know we are taking up time with this.  That's fine,

23     no objections.

24             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] So what will be admitted is that

25     portion of the video you referred to, i.e., from 7.29 until 11.21.  I

Page 6087

 1     don't know exactly what that means and which has not been shown to the

 2     Tribunal because we only saw the beginning of that video-clip, but since

 3     there is no objection to the admitting into evidence that portion of the

 4     video, this portion of the video from 07.29 to 11.21 is admitted into

 5     evidence.

 6             Mr. Registrar can you give it an exhibit number, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D78.

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. Petrovic, I would

 9     like to reminds you that you have little time left.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... if I

11     don't have any more time, but I would nevertheless ask for a couple of

12     more minutes and just one second to consult with my client, if I may.

13                           [Defence counsel and Accused Simatovic confer]

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  The

15     Simatovic Defence have no further questions for this witness.  Thank you,

16     Mr. Bogunovic.

17             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.  I don't

18     know whether -- do you have many questions, Mr. Weber, to put --

19             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, the Chamber has a

22     few questions to put to you.

23                           Questioned by the Court:

24             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] I must admit that I did not quite

25     understand all the answers you gave as to the position of the Red Berets

Page 6088

 1     in the region where you were.  We saw a number of documents where the Red

 2     Berets apparently were part of the Ministry of the Interior MUP.  We have

 3     seen documents where it was said that the JNA was trying to get rid of

 4     the paramilitary forces.  We have seen or you have told us that the

 5     Yugoslav Army was working in close co-operation with Arkan and the Red

 6     Berets, so finally, these Red Berets, what was their position in your

 7     region?  Were they accepted or not?  And how come you did not know who

 8     was in charge of the Red Berets?  I'm sorry, I asked you many questions

 9     at the same time, but could you please explain what the position of the

10     Red Berets was in Eastern Slavonia.

11        A.   I've already said that I didn't know why they had come, who their

12     commander or boss was.  I did not have any points of reference.  I was

13     not in a position to know why they were there, whether they had come to

14     assist in restoring peace and order, or whether they were there to do

15     things unbeknownst to us.  As far as the relationship between the Red

16     Berets and the military authorities is concerned, they -- that was

17     non-existent but because the military had already withdrawn from Ilok and

18     as far as their relationship with the police is concerned, I was no

19     longer in the police, and I didn't know that they were co-operating with

20     the police.

21             In any case, initially that was not the case and later on in the

22     course of 1992, they may have been tasked with that.  As I am a saying at

23     first there was no co-operation between the police and the Red Berets,

24     and it was only 1992 that they were given a task to control vehicles,

25     passengers, and the rest of the things in that area of Srem and Baranja.

Page 6089

 1             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Which means that when you were

 2     minister of the interior you had no relationship whatsoever with the Red

 3     Berets or they were not yet there, or how was it?

 4        A.   They had not arrived yet.  They were not in Ilok yet.  I did not

 5     have an occasion to see them, to meet them, to be introduced to them.

 6     And my successor, I don't know whether he knew, whether he had any

 7     sources of information about them.  As for me, I didn't know why they had

 8     arrived, and I could only repeat my previous answers to your question.

 9             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10             Are there any further questions you want to put to the witness?

11     If such is the case, if there are no further questions, Mr. Bogunovic,

12     the Chamber wishes to thank you and you can now leave.  Good-bye.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And good-bye.

14             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] The Tribunal will now break, and

15     we will start again at 1.00 p.m.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

18             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] We will resume for a little

19     half-hour with a number of technical problems which have not yet been

20     solved, which means that we will proceed in the following way:  Since we

21     do not have any possibility for image -- face distortion of the image,

22     there will be no image and there's no access to e-court either.  Bearing

23     that in mind, we will nevertheless try and proceed for about half an

24     hour.

25             Ms. Marcus, I think that you will be the first one.

Page 6090

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon.  The

 2     Prosecution calls JF-050.

 3             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Can we go in closed session,

 4     please.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Mr. Witness, you will be called JF-050.  You benefit from

15     protection measures which means that your name will not be revealed to

16     the public and your face will not appear on the transmission on the

17     broadcast of the trial.  Nobody will be able to see your face.

18             The Prosecution has the floor.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Would Your Honours like the witness to take the

20     oath?

21             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, could you please read

22     the official oath.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Ms. Marcus, you have the floor.

Page 6091

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           WITNESS:  JF-050

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

 5        Q.   JF-050, can you hear me well?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Could I please ask the Court Officer to hand around

 8     the pseudonym sheet.  We are using hard copies because of the technical

 9     problems.  That is 65 ter 5379.

10             Your Honours, perhaps I would propose that we return to this and

11     I continue with your leave we'll come back to the pseudonym sheet if it's

12     not available yet.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] That is a slight problem.  I don't

14     know what the problem is.  Let me confer.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] All right.  We can see it on our

17     screens so you may proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Witness JF-050, do you see the document on the screen in front of

20     you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you confirm that what appears on that document is your full

23     name and your date of birth?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this pseudonym

Page 6092

 1     sheet into evidence under seal.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the witness's microphone please be

 3     adjusted.

 4             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] This document is admitted.  Could

 5     you please admitted it under seal, Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this would be Exhibit D79 under

 7     seal.

 8             MS. MARCUS:

 9        Q.   JF-050, I'm going to ask you to confirm some of the previous

10     information you've provided to the Tribunal.  Did you provide two

11     statements to the Office of the Prosecution, one of them dated the 13th

12     to the 15th of December, 1998, and the other dated the 25th of February,

13     1999?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And did you testify in a prior case before this Tribunal?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review your prior statements and

18     your prior testimony in your own language before you came to court today?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did you provide a proofing note to the Prosecution making some

21     minor corrections to the prior evidence you had provided?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review that proofing note prior to

24     signing it yesterday?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6093

 1        Q.   If you were to be asked the same questions today as you were

 2     asked previously, would you provide the same answers in substance?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you confirm

 5     that the information contained in your prior statements, your testimony,

 6     and the proofing note are true and accurate to the best of your

 7     knowledge?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

10     into evidence the prior statements, testimony, and proofing note for this

11     witness.  Those are 65 ter 5370, 5371, 5372, and 5378 under seal, please.

12             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] There's no objections so these

13     documents are tendered under seal, and could you please give them a

14     number, Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 5370 will be D80 under seal.

16     65 ter 5371 will be D81 under seal.  65 ter 5372 will be D82 under seal,

17     and 65 ter 5378 will be D82 under seal.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I'm sorry for the interruption,

19     perhaps we could have Prosecution numbers instead of Defence numbers,

20     unless that -- perhaps I misunderstood.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  That will be P570 up it to

22     P573 under seal.

23             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] And these documents have been

24     admitted contrary to what I read in the minutes.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  In addition, the

Page 6094

 1     Prosecution -- in relation to the related exhibits to the witness's prior

 2     testimony, the Prosecution submits as follows with respect to the photo

 3     albums listed in the related exhibits list as 65 ter 5373, 5374, 5375,

 4     and 5376.  As was the subject of out of court informal correspondence

 5     prior to today's hearing, the Prosecution recognizes that there are some

 6     challenges posed by the use of a different numbering system developed by

 7     the investigator which was used in the statements and testimony in

 8     relation to this witness.

 9             The Prosecution prepared indexes and forwarded those to the

10     Defence and Chambers in advance of this witness's testimony to facilitate

11     the cross-referencing of photographs.  In addition, Your Honours, the

12     Prosecution has made selections from among these photographs, which it is

13     seeking to tender as part of the witness's 92 ter package as related

14     exhibits to his statement and testimony.  The Prosecution prepared and

15     has distributed a demonstrative exhibit.  It is in the form of a

16     spreadsheet of photographs from these albums including those discussed by

17     the witness with the investigator's number referenced, the ERN, the page

18     reference to the witness's statement, and the witness's comments.  This

19     demonstrative exhibit bears the ERN 0676-7147 to 0676-7159.

20             The spreadsheet has been provide in hard copy and the shaded rows

21     indicate those photographs with the Prosecution seeks to tender into

22     evidence as related exhibits.  In making its selection, the Prosecution

23     sought to strike a balance between including photographs of individuals

24     discussed by the witness in his evidence while eliminating duplications.

25     In a very few instances where the quality of the photo or the still was

Page 6095

 1     extremely poor, this photo was not selected by the Prosecution for that

 2     reason.

 3             It is the Prosecution's hope that this demonstrative exhibit will

 4     facilitate the work of the Chamber and the Defence.

 5             May I request private session for a moment, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Could we please have private

 7     session for the moment.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

23             MS. MARCUS:  So to summarise, Your Honours, the Prosecution

24     tenders eight related exhibits into evidence as they are.  Those would be

25     65 ter 10 under seal, 65 ter 11 under seal, 15, 16, 43, 44, 45, 46, 614

Page 6096

 1     under seal, 645, 646, 647, and 4500 page 405 only under seal.  Those are

 2     the exhibits that we tender as related exhibits with this witness, and in

 3     addition to that, we tender the 55 shaded photographs from albums, from

 4     the photo albums which are listed as related exhibits.

 5             Your Honours, I would propose that perhaps we discuss with the

 6     Registrar afterwards the numbering for this, but it's on the record, and

 7     with your leave, if we could have them admitted into evidence.

 8             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you, no objections.  So

 9     these documents will be admitted, some of them under seal, and I suppose

10     the Registrar will provide us with a list with the exhibit numbers of

11     those documents.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] An internal memorandum will be

14     drafted and it will be given to us by the Registry.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

16        Q.   JF-050, I will now be reading out a public summary of your

17     evidence.  Please note that what I'm reading now is not evidence in this

18     case.  It is merely a means of informing the public of the general nature

19     of the information you will be providing to the Court.

20             Witness JF-050 is a Bosnian Croat who was captured by the VRS

21     in --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  You are kindly asked to read more slowly for

23     the interpretation.  Thank you.

24             MS. MARCUS:  I will do so.

25             Captured by the VRS in 1992 and detained by the VRS and other

Page 6097

 1     associated armed groups until June of 1995 when he was detained by Arkan

 2     and put to forced labour for his unit, the Tigers.

 3             The witness was held by Arkan and put to work as part of his work

 4     unit from June to October 1995 during the time that Arkan and his Tigers

 5     were operating in the regions of Mrkonjic Grad, Kljuc, Sanski Most, and

 6     other regions.

 7             The witness was then forced to move along with Arkan's Tigers to

 8     their training camp in Erdut in October 1995 where he stayed until March

 9     1996.  During this time, the witness was able to observe the structure of

10     Arkan's Tigers including the distinction of regular Tigers from a group

11     known as the Super Tigers who were said to be the original members of the

12     unit and who were able to operate outside the rules the rest of the

13     Tigers had to abide by.

14             The witness saw several crimes committed by Arkan's Men such as

15     the beating and killing of prisoners of war and on one occasion he saw

16     Arkan himself shoot a prisoner in the chest.  In early March of 1996, the

17     witness was asked to go to a location near Erdut with several of Arkan's

18     Men and cover over a well with soil to remove it from sight.  The witness

19     overheard one of Arkan's Men say that this well was the location of a

20     mass grave containing victims from the Vukovar region from the years of

21     1991 to 1992.

22             In March 1996, the witness was forced to move along with Arkan's

23     Tigers to Djeletovci to the military base of the Skorpions.  In

24     approximately April of 1996, Arkan's forces and the Skorpions pulled out

25     of this region and Arkan relocated his forces to Belgrade.  The witness

Page 6098

 1     also states that he and the other men were ordered to loot weekend homes

 2     in Erdut upon the departure of Arkan's Unit for Belgrade.

 3             The witness was thereafter put to forced labour in Belgrade at

 4     various locations owned and run by Arkan through until July 1997.  The

 5     witness will testify that the names of several of the persons whom the

 6     witness describes in his statement, some of whom were Arkan's Tigers or

 7     Super Tigers appear on the DB payment records spanning from 1993 through

 8     to the end of 1995.

 9             That concludes the public summary of the evidence of Witness

10     JF-050.

11        Q.   JF-050, can you hear me?

12        A.   Yes, I can.

13        Q.   You described in your statement and in your prior testimony being

14     detained in a camp called Stari Mlin near Prnjavor.  You say the Wolves

15     under Veljko Milankovic were in charge of this camp.  Who was it who

16     transferred you from Manjaca to Prnjavor to the base of the Wolves of

17     Veljko Milankovic?

18        A.   The military police of the Krajina Corps.

19        Q.   Was the detention centre in Prnjavor the same place as the Wolves

20     had their base, or was it a different location?

21        A.   It was the same location.

22        Q.   So you were detained by the Wolves from October 1992 to March

23     1994 at that location; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25        Q.   Did you ever have occasion to see them in training?

Page 6099

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you come to learn who it was who was training them?

 3        A.   I don't know who was training them, but I know that Veljko

 4     Milankovic was the main person around there.

 5        Q.   What sort of uniform did the Wolves wear?

 6        A.   Two piece, camouflage uniforms.

 7        Q.   Did you observe any other formations coming to the Wolves camp?

 8        A.   One could hear vehicles come in during evenings.

 9        Q.   Were you able to identify any other armed formations who came to

10     the camp of the Wolves?

11        A.   I only know that these were predominantly military vehicles.

12        Q.   Did those vehicles or those driving the vehicles bear any

13     insignias of any kind?

14        A.   I wasn't able to observe that.

15        Q.   JF-050, in your statement, page 7 in English and page 9 in B/C/S,

16     that is your 1998 statement now in evidence as P570, you described Arkan

17     coming to you personally with a few of his military policemen and

18     arresting you.  Do you recall who came along with him?

19        A.   Arkan and his military policemen.

20        Q.   Can you describe how they were dressed and whether they had any

21     insignias?

22        A.   On the left arm they had the patch of a tiger, and on the right

23     arm they had the patches of the Serb Volunteer Guard.  The uniforms they

24     wore were those of the NATO Alliance.

25        Q.   You say in your statement that Arkan seems to have presumed you

Page 6100

 1     were deserters and that is why you were called partisans.  Can you

 2     explain?

 3        A.   Yes.  We were in the street sweeping and at that time Arkan

 4     arrived with vehicles taking away all 30 of us with him.

 5        Q.   Why would it have been that he would have assumed you were

 6     deserters?

 7        A.   The VRS had people who preferred to go to jail than to the front

 8     lines.

 9        Q.   Now, you describe being held in a school at Mala Manjaca along

10     with the Tigers.  Can you tell us something about that facility?  What

11     sort of a facility was it?

12        A.   It was an elementary school at Mala Manjaca, an old building.  He

13     spent the night there and the next day he headed towards Pirici and

14     Kljuc.

15        Q.   When you say "he," who are you referring to?

16        A.   Arkan.

17             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Ms. Marcus, I see it is quarter to

18     2.00 so you could possibly ask another couple of questions if they are

19     related to the previous questions, otherwise I think that we have to call

20     it a day.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I think we could stop here.

22             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Before we adjourn, the

23     exhibit which has the Exhibit D79 should have Exhibit P574 under seal.

24     So D79 becomes P574, D79 being the pseudonym sheet.  So we are going to

25     adjourn.

Page 6101

 1             Witness JF-050, the hearing will resume next Monday at 2.15 p.m.

 2     in this very same courtroom, and meanwhile, you are not to discuss your

 3     evidence with anyone.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of that.

 5             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  I think that we have

 6     to move into private session to escort the witness outside the courtroom.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Very well.  The hearing is

17     adjourned until Monday at 2.15 p.m. in this same courtroom.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.

19                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day of July,

20                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.