1 Wednesday, 1 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is the case IT-03-69-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The Chamber was
11 informed that there was a preliminary matter to be raised by, I don't
12 know which Defence team, but, Mr. Knoops, is it you?
13 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you, Your Honour. And our request to the
14 Court is whether the Court is willing to consider a swift decision on the
15 questions to be addressed to Dr. Eekhof in light of the response of the
16 Prosecution of 1st of September.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that.
18 MR. KNOOPS: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: There is another matter which is still pending which
20 is the admission of the expert report of Dr. Donia. From what I
21 remember, the bottom line of the objection was that there was a fear of
22 abuse of the report by introducing all kind of other material not sourced
23 in the report, and I don't know whether that objection in view of how the
24 examination of Dr. Donia and how the cross-examination developed still
1 MR. JORDASH: That objection doesn't stand, and we'd be happy for
2 certain aspects of the report to be tendered as an exhibit. Our
3 objection -- the one objection that still remains is that, we submit,
4 there are parts of the report which are irrelevant to this case, and I'm
5 thinking in particular, just off the top of my head -- sorry, I've just
6 got an echo. Of the section dealing with the conduct of war which is a
7 collection of excerpts from the Assembly minutes which are designed, I
8 think, to show how the Bosnian Serb higher authorities conducted war, but
9 most of the excerpts relate to how the war was fought in Sarajevo.
10 And so what we would ask for is an opportunity to perhaps
11 indicate to Your Honours which sections we still submit are irrelevant
12 and then we would, subject to a ruling on that, be happy for the rest of
13 the report to be admitted.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Position of the Simatovic Defence?
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we share the position
16 by the Defence for Mr. Stanisic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest the following: That you identify the
18 paragraphs you would like to be excluded, first perhaps briefly discuss
19 it with Mr. Groome to see whether any agreement can be reached. If not,
20 then to make a short written submission on the matter, preferably a joint
21 written submission, in which you explain what your problem and in which
22 Mr. Groome explains what in his view the relevance is. And then the
23 Chamber will decide.
24 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, there was one other matter we'd like
25 to raise.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. JORDASH: Last week I indicated in relation to this witness
3 that I would require or hope to have two and a half hours to three hours
4 of cross-examination. Having studied the statement in greater detail and
5 subject to how the witness answers the questions, I may -- I would like
6 to request an extension to that to about four hours. I would still hope
7 to finish in three, but given the subject matters covered by this witness
8 which range from Bosnia
9 this indictment, it may take four hours, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's on the record, Mr. Jordash. You will
11 understand you had a full year to consider this, now to ask for
12 additional time. We'll see how your cross-examination further develops
13 and you are, of course, urged to focus very much on first of all on the
14 most relevant points and not to say after two or three hours, well, there
15 are still extremely important points. Start with the most important ones
16 and then we'll see what -- whether additional time will be granted. I'll
17 discuss it with my colleagues.
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But the timing of this request is not excellent.
20 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I appreciate that. I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll leave it to that. Then I'd like to
22 move into private session for a second.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 6667 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 There are a few pending MFI issues in relation to the witness who
20 will continue his testimony today. Mr. Jordash, you said that P53, which
21 are the proofing notes, that you need to review them again, so we are now
22 one year, one week, and one day further. Any objections to the proofing
23 notes, P53?
24 MR. JORDASH: No objection.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Simatovic Defence?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then P53 is admitted into evidence. I just put on
3 the record that there are another few MFIs --
4 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to leap up, I've just been reminded, we
5 understood the situation to be that the Prosecution were not seeking to
6 rely upon the last proofing note, and Mr. Hoffmann in fact took a
7 different course which was to lead the witness, not lead the witness, but
8 examine the witness on the contents, and we assumed that they were
9 relying upon those oral remarks rather than the proofing note.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that's not my understanding. In fact,
11 this proofing note was signed by the witness, but I'm happy to discuss it
12 further with Mr. Jordash at the first break, perhaps there's some
13 communication he had with Mr. Hoffmann that I'm unaware of.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then also we'll not further deal with at this
15 very moment with other MFIs, P55, P57, and P58, we'll leave that for the
16 time being as well.
17 Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH: Although the other objections to the exhibit and
19 putting aside the proofing notes, I'm happy to indicate we don't object
20 any longer.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You do not object any longer. Simatovic Defence?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You will always see that if I say that we'll not
24 deal with the matter, it's immediately resolved. P55, P57, and P58 are
25 admitted into evidence, and we'll hear from the parties whether we have
1 to reconsider our decision on P53.
2 May the witness be brought into the courtroom. We had a late
3 start because of the late finish of the Gotovina case this morning which
4 was caused again by a technical problem which made it impossible to use
5 LiveNote which lasted for one hour so that we could start only at 10.00
6 this morning.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kovacevic. Can you hear me in a
9 language you understand?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovacevic, I'd like to remind you that you are
12 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
13 your testimony and last - I think it was, last Friday last week, that you
14 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 Mr. Jordash will now continue his -- it's Mr. -- I am sorry,
16 Mr. Bakrac will now continue his cross-examination.
17 Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.
20 WITNESS: MILOMIR KOVACEVIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness. If you recall, we
24 stopped last week discussing Special Police Units, PJPs, and you said
25 that in July of 1991 you became a member of the PJP brigade Belgrade
1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This was a short answer, but I'm sure lengthier ones will follow,
4 so please make sure to pause.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 2D216, please. This
6 is 65 ter 2D216?
7 Q. Do you see the document in front of you, witness?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with the document? Have you seen it before?
10 A. I haven't seen the document. I didn't have an opportunity to
11 save for the fact that I received an order from the police brigade that I
12 was a member of.
13 Q. When you look at this decision, is it a decision setting up the
14 unit that you were a member of as of July of 1991?
15 A. Well, the PJP was part of a police brigade and was set up in July
17 Q. Sir, please look at item 2, para 2, and read it for us slowly?
18 A. "Tasks and duties of special --"
19 Q. No, paragraph 2 of item 2.
20 A. "Placing in the state of preparedness, gathering and engaging
21 PJM, and carrying out duties from para 1 of this item shall be done upon
22 orders from the minister and" --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please pause since the
24 interpreter has to translate the text on the screen.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please pause and also give the interpreter
1 some time to translate what she sees.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies to the interpreters.
3 I will be mindful of it. I don't know if it's been fully translated.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter continues: "... and when approved
5 by the minister also on orders from the chief of the public security
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So can you please reread para 2 slowly.
9 A. "Bringing into readiness, mobilising and engaging the Special
10 Police Unit, and performing tasks defined in paragraph 1 of this item
11 shall be done on orders from the minister and when approved by the
12 minister, as well as on orders from the chief of the public security
14 Q. Pursuant to this decision, it can clearly be seen that your unit,
15 your brigade that is, was within the purview of public security and
16 directly subordinated to the chief of the public security department; is
17 that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Will you agree with me, since all of us can read for ourselves
20 and to expedite the matter, when you look at item 3 that it says:
21 "Professional education, training, and maintenance of the
22 necessary level of professional and psychophysical preparedness of
23 Special Police members (hereinafter training) shall be carried out in
24 accordance with a programme adopted by the chief of the public security
25 department, and equipment shall be carried out as per the material
1 establishment which is attached to this decision and is an integral part
2 of it."
3 Do you agree with me that education, training, and provisions lay
4 within the purview of the chief of the public security department?
5 A. Yes, I agree.
6 Q. Witness, last week when we started your examination you said that
7 out in the field you received orders from Radovan Stojicic, Badza?
8 A. When we left to Western Srem out in the field, we were part of
9 the territorial units of Western Srem, and the commander of that unit was
10 Radovan Stojicic, Badza.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we get too far from this
13 document, Mr. Bakrac suggests that we all can read the document, but of
14 course we can only do that if it is in evidence. The Prosecution would
15 not object to the admission of this if Mr. Bakrac seeks to tender it.
16 I'm not sure if that was an omission on his part.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to put one
18 question to the witness, and then I wanted to turn to the end of the
19 document and then ask that it be tendered. Mr. Groome was hasty in all
20 due respect, but I do have another question for the witness before I
21 finish with the document.
22 Q. I wanted to ask the witness as follows: Do you know which role
23 Radovan Stojicic, Badza held in the MUP of Serbia in 1991 and then in
25 A. I don't know which function he held in the MUP of Serbia in 1991.
1 The only thing I know is that in 1991 and 1992 when we were in Western
2 Srem that he was the commander of the territorial unit of Eastern and
3 Western Srem.
4 Q. In your statement numbering 37 pages, you provided a variety of
5 information. Is it possible that you do not know that Radovan Stojicic,
6 Badza was as of 1992 head of the public security department, and then
7 subsequently assistant, i.e., or rather deputy minister of the interior
8 of Serbia
9 A. I know that in 1992 he became head of the public security
10 department, but in 1991 he was at the head of the Territorial Defence
11 unit of Western Srem.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 2 of the
13 document and scroll down to the very bottom.
14 Q. On the right-hand side who signed the document, can you tell us?
15 A. It was signed by the late minister Zoran Sokolovic.
16 Q. And can you look for the date, it's on the left-hand side. When
17 was it that the Special Police Unit was set up?
18 A. On the 1st of August, 1993.
19 Q. Can you explain to me then how was it possible for you to become
20 a member of a unit in 1991 which had not yet been formed?
21 A. Well, it was formed in the 3rd Battalion in 1991. It had 1st and
22 2nd Company belonging to it, and they were called Special Police Units,
23 they were subsequently deployed to Eastern Baranja and Western Srem
24 Q. Do you know pursuant to which decision this was?
25 A. I don't know what the decision was. I only know that the
1 commander of our battalion informed us of the inception of the unit and
2 that we would be deployed to Eastern and Western Srem.
3 Q. Who was the commander of the unit at the time in July of 1992, as
4 you put it?
5 A. The commander of the unit was Mr. Milosevic. He was the
6 commander of the 3rd Battalion. The commander of the 1st Battalion was
7 Mr. Filipovic. The commander of the 2nd Battalion was Mr. Tadic, the
8 commander of the 3rd Battalion was Mr. Milosevic and the commander of the
9 brigade was late Stojan Petkovic, and his assistant was Slobodan
10 Vukovic [as interpreted].
11 Q. I put it to you, witness, that they did not hold positions of
12 command in the brigade in 1991, as you claim?
13 A. And I put it to you that Stojan Petkovic was the brigade
14 commander, his assistant was Slobodan Vukolic, and Mr. Milosevic was the
15 commander of the 3rd Battalion, that's to say my commander, and I said
16 Vukolic, not Vukovic.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to turn
18 to the statement now. Can 2D216 be admitted into evidence, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, no objections from your side, isn't it?
20 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D87, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. You gave your first statement to the OTP on the 12th and 13th of
1 March, 2003, and on the 10th, 11th and 29th of April, 2003; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is P51, and can it be called
5 up, please. Page 1. Actually, it's page 2. Can we turn to the next
6 page, please, page 2.
7 Q. Witness, please look at item 4. Therein you stated:
8 "I have been under investigation after a traffic accident. In
9 1998, I was charged and convicted, but the appeals court overturned the
10 conviction. Other than that, I have never been under investigation. I
11 have never undergone treatment at any mental health institution. I have
12 to undergo a medical examination every three years because I work as a
14 Do you stand by your statement today?
15 A. Yes, I do. However, subsequently there were some cases against
16 me and in one of them I was tried and the others were dropped, the
17 charges were dropped.
18 Q. Witness, I put it to you that on page 1 of your statement dating
19 from the months of March and April 2003, you lied to the Prosecution of
20 this Tribunal.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up -- or rather 65
22 ter 1D294. Or rather, I'm sorry, 1D293, page 2.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is paragraph 1 fully translated. Could we just go
24 back to the original.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think you have the
1 judgement before you now. I don't know if you were referring to this
2 witness statement?
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to go back to the witness statement
4 both in English and in ...
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's P59, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: A bit confused whether it was 59 or 51, but.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it says 59 in my
8 notes. I might be mistaken but we called it up previously.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier referred to it as P51 and that is
10 apparently the number. Okay. Let's go back then to P51 in both
11 languages. First paragraph I see in the original a reference to December
12 1984, which -- or 1994. I'm just wondering whether everything we find in
13 the original is there in translation as well.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seems that
15 paragraph 1 has not been fully translated. It is not of much interest
16 for us, but I suppose that the Prosecutor will correct the mistake.
17 However, paragraph 4 that I showed the witness was fully translated.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I hope that you will understand that I feel some
19 concern if the first paragraph is not fully translated, that means that
20 it has not been properly checked whether the English reflects in every
21 respect what is found in the original.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I agree there appears to be a
23 discrepancy. Mr. Laugel is investigating it as we speak.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. To the extent it has been admitted, then
25 the status should change again and mark it for identification because we
1 need it on our list of MFIs to further verify whether the translation is
2 accurate or not. Please proceed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have
4 again 65 ter document 1D293, page 2 in e-court.
5 Q. Witness, can you see this judgement on the left-hand side of your
6 screen and are you the Kovacevic, Milomir, with this personal
7 identification number from Backa Topola, Kis Ferenca Street number 46?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have you been convicted here for the crime of fraud on the 18th
10 of October, 2002?
11 A. According to this judgement, I was convicted on the 18th of
12 October, 2002, but since my lawyer lodged an appeal, this judgement
13 became only final in 2004.
14 Q. Sir, but in your statement given in 2003 March and April, you
15 said that no investigation was conducted of you?
16 A. There was no investigation. A criminal report had been filed and
17 the first instance judgement did not become final until 2004.
18 Q. All right. Let's move on. Here you were sentenced to four
19 months in prison; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. For fraud?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have
24 this document admitted into evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm satisfied that it was provided
2 officially by the government of Serbia
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there an appeals judgement as well,
4 Mr. Kovacevic?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, it's in the next document
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then in the absence of any objections,
8 Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit D88, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to call
12 up the next 65 ter exhibit 1D294.
13 Q. Sir, is this the judgement that you said became final in 2004 by
14 rejecting your appeal and confirming the original judgement?
15 A. Yes, this is the judgement. However, this judgement as well as
16 other judgement were put together and I served a combined sentence.
17 Q. Can you please go slowly. We will come to that later. Can you
18 tell me is this the judgement that confirmed the previous judgement for
19 fraud and this judgement was rendered on the 2nd of June, 2003?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have
21 this document admitted into evidence as well.
22 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D89, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. The document as they
1 are uploaded in e-court, one is a letter with the first instance
2 judgement attached, whereas this one apparently is just the judgement.
3 Do we need the letter and at least it should be described properly in
4 e-court, that the first instance judgement is not a judgement but an
5 attachment to a letter.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since Mr. Groome
8 confirmed that we had received this from the official authority of the
9 Republic of Serbia
10 this, and we have the confirmation from the witness as well. There is no
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you please then upload in e-court as D88
13 just the first instance judgement without the letter attached to it.
14 Please proceed.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness's mikes
16 please be lowered and could the speakers please pause between questions
17 and answers. We notice that the witness's answer was not recorded in the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any previous answer not being recorded or --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Page 18 -- no, page 16, line 18.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.
22 Witness, you did confirm that the second judgement you saw on
23 your screen was the judgement which confirmed the previous judgement for
24 fraud, and that it was rendered on the 2nd of June, 2003? Your answer
25 to --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, could you please keep in mind to make
3 those pauses, because we will end up with an incomplete record which is
4 in no one's interest. Please proceed.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will do
6 my best but this was just for the sake of expediency. Can we please have
7 again the original judgement, that's D88, and can we please look at page
8 3 in B/C/S. Can we please turn to the next page in both versions.
9 That's page 3.
10 Q. Witness, I'm going to read out to you the statement of reasons
11 provided by the court concerning the statement that you gave which you
12 denied a minute ago, and you will confirm whether what is written here is
13 correct. And it reads as follows:
14 "At the hearing, the accused changed his statement concerning the
15 method of payment of the money received by stating that he paid the money
16 in Kosjeric in the name of the injured party Crnkovic. Then he said that
17 he had paid the money at the cement plant cashier's office. Then he said
18 that he had paid the money two weeks after he had received it. Then he
19 stated that at that time he did not get the money back, and he also
20 changed his statement in this part concerning the way in which the money
21 was given back to him, stating that that was done in cash, and later he
22 said that he received it through a remittance order. For the money thus
23 returned, he explained that he spent it to pay back an earlier debt, but
24 then he said that at the time when he received the money he had no debts
25 whatsoever, and then he said that he spent the money for doing
2 Now, are all these statements correct, which is to say that you
3 made your statement before April 2003 and that you did it in this way,
4 which is to say by changing your statement and facts?
5 A. That is the only time I gave my statement since there was no
6 investigation, the gentleman who gave me the money --
7 Q. I'm asking you whether it is true what is written in this
8 judgement according to what the court found regarding your defence and
9 your statement?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to move
12 now to the next document, that's 65 ter 1D295.
13 Q. Witness, this is a judgement rendered by the district court of
15 original judgement pursuant to which you were accused for the crime of
16 endangering life and limb with a dangerous weapon during a fight and
17 brawl. Secondly, you were accused for illegal possession and bearing of
18 arms and ammunition referred to Article 33, paragraph 1, of the Law on
19 Weapon and Ammunition of the Republic of Serbia
20 of fraud and two crimes of falsifying official documents referred to
21 Article 23 of the Criminal Code of Serbia
22 were convicted in the year 2000 -- no, I'm sorry, the trial commenced
23 pursuant to judgement or case K 255/2000. This is when the trial began.
24 Now, up until April and March 2003, are you saying that you gave
25 no statement whatsoever?
1 A. I said that I did give statement, but this judgement became final
2 only in 2004, which means then in April 2003 I was not a convicted
3 person. You can see that from the judgement which became final in 2004.
4 Q. Witness, let us not go back to your statement given to the
5 investigator of the OTP. You said that you had a car accident and that
6 that investigation was completed and that apart from that you were not
7 subject to any investigation or judgement?
8 A. I said that I was acquitted, whereas all the other judgements
9 were not final at the time.
10 Q. I'm going to repeat to you once again.
11 A. It is true that the proceedings were being conducted --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, what you apparently want to establish,
13 that the witness in his statement was not candid about these proceedings,
14 that point is clear to us, so would you please move on.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. In order
16 to be more efficient, I will follow your advice and I will move to the
17 next issue.
18 Q. We said that this is a continual crime of fraud. You will agree
19 with me that that actually involves a series of frauds over a short
20 period of time which is then qualified as a continual crime or criminal
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. And by this decision, you were convicted to a single
24 term of imprisonment of one year and five months?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to offer
2 this exhibit into evidence.
3 MR. GROOME: No objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D90, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Mr. Bakrac, the most
7 efficient way of dealing with these kind of matters is that you,
8 apparently in the possession of the judgements, that you ask Mr. Groome
9 whether he challenges the authenticity of them and then in five questions
10 to the witness which takes approximately five minutes, you would have
11 established exactly what you've established now. The questions being, is
12 it true that this judgement, that judgement, that judgement was brought
13 against you, have you read the judgements, is it the specific portion.
14 You ask him to read that and say does this reflect the defence you
15 conducted at the time. And then we deal with this in five minutes rather
16 than in 20 minutes.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am halfway through
19 my examination. I have two or three judgements left and I will do my
20 best to go through them as quickly as possible. Can we have 65 ter
21 1D296, please.
22 Q. Witness, is it true that before the 2nd municipal court in
24 which became final on the 13th of December, 2000, whereby you were
25 sentenced to a term of imprisonment of one year for the crime of fraud?
1 You can see that in item 1. Is that right?
2 A. Yes. All these judgements --
3 Q. A moment, please. Witness, it is clearly written here, and I'm
4 asking you whether it's true or not, that this is a judgement rendered by
5 the 2nd municipal court in Belgrade
6 December, 2000?
7 A. Yes, it's true that it became final in 2000, but then
8 subsequently it was asked that all these judgements be put together,
9 joined together, and this was settled in 2006.
10 Q. Well, just tell me if it's true or not?
11 A. Yes, it is. This is true.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please not speak at the same time. Please
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, therefore, in 2003 when you gave your statement, you had
16 already been rendered a final judgement by the 2nd municipal court for
17 the crime of fraud and was sentenced to a term of imprisonment of one
19 A. Yes, but this sentence was about to be joined with others and it
20 was not final in that sense yet.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted
22 into evidence, please.
23 MR. GROOME: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D91, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D91 is admitted into evidence. If you have more
2 judgements, why not say to the witness is it true that you were convicted
3 on that day for that and sentenced to that and that and that, and that we
4 then agree on apparently the copies of the official judgements to be
5 rendered -- to be tendered and admitted into evidence.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will not object to
7 tendering of any of the judgements which Mr. Bakrac has provided us
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I suggest to you, Mr. Bakrac, that you
10 briefly summarise what is found in these judgements and that you verify
11 with the witness whether he agrees that such convictions were pronounced
12 and including the sentences so that we can proceed.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to follow
14 your guidance.
15 Q. This is a 65 ter document, 1D305, which is a judgement by the
16 municipal court in Ruma dated the 19th of February, 2004, where you,
17 witness, were found guilty of fraud and sentenced to a term of
18 imprisonment of 10 months; is that right?
19 A. That's right. All these judgements were joined. The district
20 court in Subotica
21 sentences into a single one, but wait, let me tell you this, I was
22 referring, and I only considered as serious, the one single judgement
23 that existed against me and not all these individual ones.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently sentencing was concentrated and in
25 one judgement -- in one sentencing judgement, is that correctly
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, chronologically one
3 can see how many different courts of law tried this particular individual
4 for the crime of fraud. Ultimately, some of these sentences were served
5 by the witness and those that were not were combined and the witness was
6 sentenced to a single term of imprisonment of three years. Where in our
7 system there are several final judgements, the accused can file for all
8 these sentences to be combined in order for the term of imprisonment to
9 be shortened. But this is nothing to do with individual judgements, and
10 the facts of these cases --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you are giving evidence at this moment
12 and that's not what you are supposed to do. Having joined all the
13 convictions, has this resulted in a sentence of three years of
14 imprisonment, witness?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The matter of the case, therefore, is that for
17 various cases of fraud and one case of the possession and/or use of a
18 weapon that the witness finally received a combined sentence after having
19 been sentenced by the various courts individually, a combined sentence of
20 three years imprisonment. How much time did you serve of those three
21 years altogether, witness?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the three years.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would only like to
25 add that you omitted to mention that there were two crimes of document
1 forging in addition to all these cases of fraud and the rest that you
2 mentioned. So for the transcript, I should like to say that there were
3 two instances of the crime of forgery charged. And I would like the
4 following documents to be admitted into evidence: 1D305, 1D299, 1D301,
5 and 1D300.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that, may I take it, is the documentation which
7 underlies the answers the witness has just given? All judgements,
8 sentencing judgement included?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first instance
10 judgements, sentencing judgements, that's to say second instance
11 judgements as well, as well as the judgement pronouncing a single
12 sentence for all those terms that had not been served by that point.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against omission?
14 MR. GROOME: No objection to the admission of these four
15 documents, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar we start with 1D305.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D92, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Next one 1D299.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D93, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: 1D301.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D94, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: 1D300.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit D95, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D92 up to and including D95 are admitted into
25 evidence. Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness, I will now move on to a completely different topic. In
3 your statements you mention the name of Frenki. Do you know who that is?
4 A. I know that it is Mr. Frenki Simatovic who was assistant chief of
5 the state security department at the time.
6 Q. At which time was that?
7 A. I can't remember but I think it was sometime in 1991 when I was
8 already out in the field at Western Slavonia that he held the position.
9 We co-operated with the members of the state security department out in
10 the field, that's how I know.
11 Q. Do you recognise Frenki Simatovic here in the courtroom?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Who he is?
14 A. The gentleman with the glasses.
15 Q. Do you recall on how many occasions --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, in court identifications are from a
17 scientific point of view rather useless, that's one, and second I see
18 Mr. Knoops wearing glasses, you are wearing glasses as well, so you might
19 be Mr. Simatovic, I've forgotten mine at home but if you do it, then
20 please do it seriously. And while I didn't want to mention Mr. Groome in
21 this respect. But if you know the literature, in-court identifications,
22 it's really a useless matter. Please proceed, be precise, be focused on
23 what you want to establish so that it assists the Chamber in the
24 determinations it will have to make. Please proceed.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Witness, before this day on how many occasions have you seen
2 Mr. Simatovic in person?
3 A. I can't recall exactly. I think some four to five times.
4 Q. When was the first time you saw him?
5 A. Sometime in 1991, I believe.
6 Q. Where was this?
7 A. In the seat of the state security department when I came there
8 once carrying mail for the public and state security departments.
9 Q. And that was the first time you saw him in the building of the
10 state security department?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us more precisely what time of year it was?
13 A. It was either second half of October or early November 1991.
14 Q. Where exactly did you see him, in his office or in the corridor?
15 A. In the corridor.
16 Q. How did you know that it was Frenki Simatovic?
17 A. My assistant brigade commander was with me, Mr.
18 Vukovic [as interpreted], and he told me that the gentleman was Frenki
20 Q. Did Vukolic tell you at this point, that's to say November 2001,
21 what sort of role Mr. Simatovic had in the state security department?
22 A. No, he did not.
23 Q. Was he in civilian clothes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you describe for us his appearance?
1 A. He had a suit and a tie. He wore eyeglasses. He had a normal
2 gait. His hair combed to the right-hand side. He was passing through
3 the car door casually and Mr. Vukolic remarked, here is Mr. Simatovic.
4 Q. You said that his hair was combed to the side. Now that you look
5 at Mr. Frenki Simatovic, have a look, can you tell us was his hair styled
6 as it is now?
7 A. No, it was longer.
8 Q. How much longer?
9 A. I can't really recall.
10 Q. Medium length, long?
11 A. Medium length.
12 Q. And it was combed as you say?
13 A. Yes, to the extent I could see.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when was the second time you saw
15 Mr. Simatovic?
16 A. The second time I saw him was sometime in 1992 in the seat of the
17 Serbian Voluntary Guard at the training centre in Erdut.
18 Q. Do you recall the date?
19 A. I don't. I only remember that I was driving my commander and the
20 other individuals from my unit to a meeting at the training centre in
22 Q. Was this the meeting when, according to what you say,
23 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan was showing some sort of an official
25 A. No, this was a different meeting where Zeljko Raznjatovic was not
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Where Simatovic was
3 not present.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you recall what Mr. Simatovic was wearing at this meeting?
6 A. I don't recall exactly, but I believe he wore a uniform, though I
7 don't recall its appearance. I think it was a camouflage uniform. And
8 that he had a beret on his head.
9 Q. Did he wear glasses?
10 A. Yes, he did. I parked the vehicle I drove, my superiors left,
11 shook hands with him in front of the building, whereas I stayed by my
13 Q. Who did he shake hands with?
14 A. With my superiors.
15 Q. Which ones?
16 A. Slobodan Vukolic, Mr. Stevo Pavkovic who is now the commander of
17 the police brigade in Belgrade
18 Q. According to your statement, one of the two of them told you that
19 this was Frenki Simatovic; is that right?
20 A. Well, I said that I had seen him in October of 1991 in the seat
21 of the state security department. When they returned from the meeting, I
22 asked Mr. Stevo, since he was seated in the front, whether he was
23 present, and his response was, yes, I believe I saw Frenki Simatovic. I
24 think he was there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I'm seeking in order to avoid confusion
1 clarification of some of the answers. I'll take you back to page 28,
2 line 5. You had asked the witness when he saw Mr. Simatovic for the
3 second time, and then the answer was that it was sometime in 1992 at the
4 seat of the Serbian voluntary guard at the training centre in Erdut. The
5 witness did not remember the date, and then you ask him was this the
6 meeting when according to what you say Arkan was showing some sort of an
7 official identification. He said, the witness then said:
8 "No, this was a different meeting where Zeljko Raznjatovic was
9 not present." And this was then corrected, the difference --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Frenki Simatovic was not
12 JUDGE ORIE: I was just about to read the correction. So the
13 answer finally was that this was a different meeting where Simatovic was
14 not present. And then you continued:
15 "Do you recall what Mr. Simatovic was wearing at this meeting?"
16 Now, the confusion lies in the following: The witness refers to
17 a meeting where he saw Mr. Simatovic, then you asked him was that a
18 meeting where Arkan was, and then the witness answered, no, this was a
19 different meeting. Now, it's unclear whether it's the one meeting or the
20 other, so I understood the testimony now to be, and I wanted to have this
21 clear on the record, that when the witness referred to the different
22 meeting where Simatovic was not present, that that was the meeting where
23 Arkan was present. And when you asked him do you recall what
24 Mr. Simatovic was wearing at this meeting, you referred to the other
25 meeting where Arkan was not present but where Mr. Simatovic was present.
1 By not specifying which meeting the question and the answer relate to,
2 confusion might arise and I hope by these comments to have avoided
3 further confusion. And I urge you to be very precise in the formulation
4 of your questions. Please proceed.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I see
6 that you are looking at the clock and so am I, maybe this is a convenient
7 moment to take a break.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We already had a session which was slightly
9 longer than usual. We'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter past
11 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, let us go back to your first encounter with Mr. Franko
16 Simatovic. You said that that took place at the state security
17 department HQ in November 1991?
18 A. Yes, or early November.
19 Q. Now, can you please explain to me this: When you say at the
20 state security department seat or HQ, in which building exactly was this
21 institution in Belgrade
22 A. In Banjica.
23 Q. Do you know the name of the street?
24 A. No, I cannot remember. I know that it's in Banjica, our
25 neighbourhood, and I remember how the building looked like.
1 Q. Is --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, and you as well, Mr. Kovacevic, you
3 should make a pause between question and answer, otherwise the
4 interpreters cannot possibly follow you and the transcriber has a similar
5 problem. So wait for you -- Mr. Kovacevic, perhaps you look at the
6 screen, and as soon as it stops moving it means that what Mr. Bakrac has
7 said has been transcribed and most likely also be translated and only
8 then give your answer.
9 Mr. Bakrac, you are more experienced and more trained, so give
10 the good example, please.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours, thank you,
12 and I apologise once again to the interpreters.
13 Q. Sir, when you say Banjica, is that part of Belgrade which is not
15 A. That's part of Belgrade
16 Q. That building in Banjica that you referred to, is that in the
17 suburbs of Belgrade
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. The second time you saw Mr. Simatovic in Erdut,
20 you said that that took place in which month and which year?
21 A. I believe that was in early 1992, perhaps in February or March of
22 that year.
23 Q. Very well. You described how he looked like at the time. Tell
24 me, who else was present at this meeting?
25 A. From among my commanding officers, there was Mr. Stevo Pavkovic,
1 Slobodan Vukolic, and Petar Ojkic.
2 Q. Was there anyone else apart from Franko Simatovic and the people
3 you just named present at the meeting?
4 A. Yes, there were other officers who were deployed in the area. I
5 only know my officers, but later I heard from Mr. Stevo Pavkovic that
6 also present were commanders of the Territorial Defence of various
7 villages and also present were officers who at the time were still
8 members of the JNA deployed in the area.
9 Q. If I understood you correctly, Zeljko Raznjatovic was not at that
11 A. Yes, he was, only I didn't see him.
12 Q. Then how do you know that he was there given what your commander
13 told you about the attendance?
14 A. He said that Mr. Zeljko was there as well because the meeting was
15 held at the training centre of the Serbian Voluntary Guard and the police
16 of the Republic of Serbian
17 Q. Is that your conclusion because of the venue, or did your
18 commander tell you explicitly that Arkan was there?
19 A. Yes, he told me that he was there.
20 Q. Do you know in what capacity Mr. Franko Simatovic attended this
22 A. No. My officers did not tell me that, and I never inquired about
23 these meetings, what was discussed, and they wouldn't tell me anyway.
24 Q. If I'm not wrong, then you don't know anything about the role
25 that Mr. Franko Simatovic played at the time in that area?
1 A. I don't know what his role was at the time, and I don't know what
2 they discussed at the meeting either because I was outside waiting for my
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Now, if and when you saw
5 Mr. Frenki Simatovic for a third time, when did that happen?
6 A. The next time I saw Frenki was also sometime in 1993 or 1994, and
7 that was again when I went to deliver certain official documents to the
8 state and public security departments in Banjica. With me at the time
9 was Mr. Tadic who was the battalion commander. We both came from the
10 field and he went to the premises of the state and public security
11 departments to deliver the documents.
12 Q. Was Mr. Franko Simatovic on that occasion in civilian clothes and
13 did he look the same as he did on the first two occasions?
14 A. I was waiting for Mr. Tadic, my officer, whilst he went to
15 Mr. Franko Simatovic's office. I only saw him when he opened the door.
16 Frenki was sitting at his desk and I remained outside waiting for my
18 Q. And that happened also in the same building in Banjica when you
19 saw him for the first time?
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer that
21 the witness gave.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters have not heard the
23 answer, most likely because you already started speaking.
24 The question was:
25 "And that happened also in the same building in Banjica when you
1 saw him for the first time?"
2 What's your answer to that question?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I again
6 apologise to the interpreters and the Trial Chamber. I will really do my
7 best at least to avoid making these mistakes myself.
8 Q. Sir, after this encounter, did you see Mr. Simatovic again?
9 A. I saw him at the celebration of the unit for special operations I
10 think in 1996.
11 Q. So we said the security institute, or rather, the HQ of the state
12 security department for the first time, late October, early November
13 1991, second time in Erdut, sometime in February 1992; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The third time again at Banjica on the premises of the state
16 security department in 1993 or 1994; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the fourth and the last time you saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic was
19 in Kula in which year?
20 A. In 1996 during the celebration of the unit for special
22 Q. Now, everything that I enumerated these four occasions on which
23 you saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic is correct; this is your evidence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Outside these occasions you never saw him?
1 A. I don't think so.
2 Q. Now, when you were in Kula, in what capacity you attended that
4 A. I was in the security detail of the outside parameter around the
5 unit for special operations.
6 Q. When you say the outside perimeter of security, I understand that
7 to be for you to have been outside the training-ground?
8 A. I was at the very entry point to the training-ground in Stolac in
9 Kula, some 5 or 6 metres from the gate.
10 Q. And you stayed there throughout the day?
11 A. Yes, until very late evening or early morning when we went back
12 to our unit.
13 Q. And you saw Mr. Simatovic where?
14 A. I saw him while he arrived at the centre.
15 Q. Do you remember who he was with?
16 A. No, I cannot remember.
17 Q. Witness, do you remember how he arrived?
18 A. I think he came in a passenger car, or it was a black Mercedes
19 jeep, but I think it was the latter.
20 Q. Witness, I'm now faced with this topic relating to your
21 encounters with Mr. Simatovic, and now I'm faced with three completely
22 different scenarios and versions. Now, can you tell me, please, which
23 one of those is correct. Can you please choose one of the versions that
24 you believe to be correct.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Therefore, for that purpose, can we
1 please have Exhibit P52.
2 Q. Before we look at this exhibit, can we say that on the fourth
3 occasion you again did not know anything about the role or the function
4 of Mr. Simatovic; is that correct?
5 A. Well, Mr. Simatovic, as far as I knew, held a position of
6 assistant chief of public security department, and that he was also the
7 leader and the commander of the so-called Red Berets.
8 Q. When you say head or leader, what do you mean by that?
9 A. The Red Berets which later became a special operations unit.
10 Q. When did he become the leader of the Red Berets?
11 A. I cannot know that exactly because I was not privy to the
12 appointments in that particular department.
13 Q. If you were not privy to these appointments, then how do you know
14 that in 1991 Mr. Simatovic was assistant chief of the state security
16 A. I learned that from conversations that I had with my officers.
17 Q. Well, I'm putting to you, witness, that you were misinformed.
18 A. Possibly.
19 Q. According to your current evidence, Mr. Simatovic was in the
20 public security department for a certain period of time?
21 A. I don't know about that.
22 Q. On page 36, line 18, when I asked you about the post and the role
23 of Frenki Simatovic, you said that he was in the public security
25 A. I don't remember saying that he was in the public security
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Let us now look at page 5 in
4 English. I'm interested in paragraph 33 and the following paragraphs.
5 In order to expedite the procedure, I'm just going to paraphrase what is
6 written on the 11th of May, 2009, about what this witness said about his
7 encounter with Mr. Simatovic.
8 Can we please look at paragraph 33, that's on page 5 in the
9 English. Unfortunately I don't have the B/C/S version, but we can look
10 for the corresponding paragraph which is 33.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What -- it's paragraph 33 you say on page 5 of --
12 because Madam Registrar tells me that it's a three-page document, so it
13 may be difficult to find page 5.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's the document
16 to which we did not object. Just let me -- oh, yes, I am sorry, my
17 mistake. My mistake, I do apologise, Your Honours. It's P53. P53, page
18 5, paragraph 33. I apologise once again. This is supplemental
19 information provided by this witness on the 24th and 25th August that
20 were not contained in his original statement, so this is additional
21 information. If you look at paragraph 33 --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I see what appears to be two English
24 versions. Could I ask that a B/C/S version be placed so the -- I've been
25 told --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I see some nodding no. I'll inquire about your
2 request, whether we have that.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, it's your document provided in English
5 and not uploaded in B/C/S from what I understand, so therefore the
6 question addressed to the Registrar is a question which you might have to
7 address to yourself.
8 MR. GROOME: I appreciate that, Your Honour. I'll check with
9 Mr. Laugel.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Since we do not have a version in
11 the B/C/S, Your Honours, is it possible for me to paraphrase the contents
12 to the witness and we can all see the exact wording and this will help me
13 proceed more quickly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed quickly.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So, witness, here in English it says that on the 24th and 25th of
17 August, you provided additional information to Mr. Hoffmann from the OTP,
18 and you stated in paragraph 33 that you saw Mr. Frenki Simatovic for the
19 first time in Bubanj Potok in July 1991, then that you saw him for the
20 second time in September 1991 at Arkan's headquarters in Erdut, so in
21 September 1991. Then you saw him for the third time in early November in
22 1991 in Erdut, and then for the fourth time in 1994 in Bubanj Potok, and
23 the fifth time you met him in May 1997 at the celebration in Kula.
24 Tell us, which is true, the account you've given us today or the
25 account you gave to Mr. Hoffmann a year ago?
1 A. Well, I only said that I saw him three, four, or five times. I
2 can't recall all these occasions exactly. Now that I've seen this
3 report -- this statement, it's true that we saw him in 1991 in the
4 barracks of the military post in 1960 in Bubanj Potok. This was at the
5 time when I went to Bubanj Potok with my superiors. Now, as for
6 September 1991, this must have been October or November 1991. And the
7 last time I saw him was at a celebration of the special unit, whether
8 this was in 1996 or 1997, I cannot recall.
9 Q. What you said here was that you also saw him two times in Erdut?
10 A. I saw him once in Erdut and it was sometime in October or
11 November 1991.
12 Q. What about Bubanj Potok?
13 A. This was sometime in the summer of 1991.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Pause between question and answer and answer and
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, when you testified shortly after giving this statement,
18 you also said that you saw Frenki Simatovic for the first time in
19 Bubanj Potok in 1991. This is page 2171. And then at page 2172, you
20 said in line 10 that you saw him in 1991 at the centre in Erdut but you
21 did not recall when exactly this was. You believed that it was sometime
22 in August or September 1992.
23 Can you tell us now, was this in 1991 or 1992 that you saw him in
25 A. In 1991.
1 Q. Was it in August or September?
2 A. I've already said that it was end September, early October, 1991,
3 just before the liberation of the town of Vukovar, because Vukovar was
4 liberated on the 18th of November, 1991.
5 Q. In other words, it is not true what you said today here that you
6 saw him in February 1992 in Erdut?
7 A. I did not see him in Erdut in 1992.
8 Q. You've told us a moment ago, and I asked you about it twice
9 before I showed this to you, and your answer was February 1992 in
10 reference to you seeing him in Erdut?
11 A. I saw him in Erdut in September or October of 1991, and I don't
12 remember ever seeing him again in Erdut.
13 Q. Very well. Witness, tell me now, if you saw him in Erdut in
14 September or October, how was it possible that in the second part of
15 October or early November your boss should present to you
16 Frenki Simatovic for the first time in the seat of the security building?
17 A. Well, my boss did not acquaint me with Simatovic personally. He
18 merely pointed him to me as he was passing along the corridor. I had
19 seen him in Erdut in a uniform, whereas now he was in his plain clothes.
20 I saw him in Erdut as he was shaking hands with my superiors outside the
21 building before the meeting.
22 Q. Half an hour ago or some 45 minutes ago you told us that you saw
23 him for the first time in late October or early November in the seat of
24 the security building and that your superior told you here this is
1 A. I told you that the first time I saw him was in 1991 in Erdut and
2 the second time was in late October or early November in the building of
3 the state security department.
4 Q. When did you see him for the third time?
5 A. The third time I saw him was, I don't know which year it was, as
6 I was carrying mail for the public and state security department, and my
7 boss Tadic went to Frenki Simatovic's office in the state security
8 department, and this was sometime in 1993 or 1994.
9 Q. Was it 1993 or 1994?
10 A. Yes, I believe either 1993 or 1994.
11 Q. And since that occasion up until the celebration at Kula, you did
12 not see him; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I refer you to
15 transcript page 2171 of this case where the witness said that you saw
16 Mr. Simatovic in 1994 again in Bubanj Potok. That's at lines 8 through
18 Q. Which of these two accounts is true, what you've just told us
19 today or what you said at this earlier trial?
20 A. In 1994 as I was with my superiors in Bubanj Potok, I did not see
21 Frenki Simatovic, it was my superior who told me that Simatovic was in
22 Bubanj Potok at the time. I myself did not see him.
23 Q. At page 2174, in line 8 you said:
24 "I saw him once." In other words, you claimed to have seen him
25 in 1994 in Bubanj Potok.
1 Does this mean that you were misinterpreted?
2 A. I told you now that I did not see him myself. I heard it from my
3 superior that Simatovic was in Bubanj Potok at the time. I myself did
4 not see him.
5 Q. Thank you, witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kovacevic, I'll read to you what you said a year
7 ago. You were asked when you saw Mr. Simatovic in person for the first
8 time. You said it was when you were preparing yourself to leave for
10 questions are put to you, and then you were asked:
11 "Did you see Mr. Simatovic at the barracks or was he arriving at
12 a certain time?"
13 Which is a bit of a confusing question, but the one not being
14 alternative to the other, and then your answer was:
15 "I saw him at the point at which he arrived, and then he went
16 away with some people, perhaps one or two of them. He went to the
17 barracks command at Bubanj Potok."
18 And then you were asked:
19 "What exactly were you doing at the Bubanj Potok barracks when
20 you refer to preparing yourself to leave for Slavonia and Baranja?
21 "We were being prepared, we had shooting exercises." Then the
22 next question was:
23 "Do you know any of the persons that arrived with Mr. Simatovic
24 to the barracks?"
25 "No, I was standing a bit further away from them, from a
1 colleague of mine who was an active policeman in the police brigade. I
2 heard that he had recognised Frenki Simatovic. I never saw him before
3 and that day when I saw him it was only from a bit far."
4 Now, I put to you all these answers because they are giving quite
5 some detail that you did see him, that you were there, that it was the
6 first time you saw him because you say you hadn't seen him before, and
7 that you heard from a colleague that the person you had seen, although
8 not from very nearby, was Mr. Simatovic. That is not in accordance with
9 what you told us the last 15 minutes. Do you have an explanation for
10 this discrepancy?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't recall this
12 precisely. My unit was at the barracks as of the month of June up until
13 July in this barracks at VP military post 1960, we were preparing for our
14 deployment to Western Slavonia and Eastern Srem. One day, this is what I
15 can remember, a colleague of mine who was a member of the active service
16 told us that Frenki Simatovic had arrived. We were just standing there
17 and he told us, Frenki Simatovic has arrived. He got out of the car and
18 went to the command of the barracks at Bubanj Potok. This was just a
19 glimpse of him that I caught.
20 So yes, I saw him there and then the other time in Erdut and then
21 at the command of the state security department, so these were the
22 occasions when I saw him. I know that he repeatedly visited the barracks
23 at Bubanj Potok, but I did not see him and I did not have information
24 about him arriving.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not fully consistent with your testimony
1 of last year which gave quite a few details. Would you be very careful
2 if you answer a question, not to speculate or not to be imprecise and to
3 tell us exactly what you know for certain, and if it is that you heard
4 that from someone else, that you tell us as well, and that if you have
5 any doubts as to your recollection, to inform the Chamber about such
7 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
9 complete this topic shortly and perhaps there will be no need to go back
10 to it.
11 Can we now call up P51 again, which is this witness's statement.
12 I'd like the witness to look at paragraph 45. In B/C/S that's page 10,
13 and the paragraph is 45 as I said.
14 Q. Witness, you state here that -- or rather, tell us first, do you
15 know who Goran Hadzic was?
16 A. Goran Hadzic was from the village of Pacetin
17 commander of the defence of the village of Pacetin
18 worked as a storage facility clerk at a co-operative in Pacetin, and
19 later on he became the president of the Serbian Republic
20 Q. You state here that Goran Hadzic directly co-operated with
21 Radovan Stojicic, Badza; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You also say that he was in direct contact with Arkan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Which year does this portion of your statement relate to? Is it
1 1991 when you arrived in the area of Erdut?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You said that you recall there being Goran Hadzic, Arkan with his
4 commanders, including Milorad Ulemek, also known as Legija, his deputy at
5 the time; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This was a meeting held sometime in 1992 in a place called Dalj.
8 Did you see Legija in 1991?
9 A. No, not in 1991. In 1992 when the meeting at Dalj took place.
10 Q. You had not seen Legija at all before that meeting?
11 A. No, not Legija, I would see Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, his deputy
12 commander for logistics, Mr. Mirko Jerkovic.
13 Q. Do you recall which month this meeting was held?
14 A. I can't recall that. The only thing I know was that it was held
15 in the building of the Dalj Municipal Assembly.
16 Q. Witness, in relation to paragraph 51 and paragraph 52 of your
17 statement, we can check this, and while we're waiting for it to appear on
18 our screens, you state in paragraph 51 that all the so-called
19 paramilitary units which had been organised in the Republic of Serbia
20 were attached to the JNA, and you say here but the JNA officers were not
21 able to fully control them. So were these forces under the JNA command?
22 A. The volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party appeared as
23 volunteers and placed themselves under the control of the Yugoslav
24 People's Army. Now, the Serbian Volunteer Guard of the
25 Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, was headquartered in Erdut and they were not
1 under the direct command of the Yugoslav People's Army. There were also
2 volunteers of Mr. Mirko Jovic. They volunteered to join the JNA and some
3 of them also joined the Territorial Defence of the SAO Srem and Eastern
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, when you quoted the witness, you left
6 out that the paramilitary units had allegedly been attached to the JNA,
7 which means that the witness apparently is not, in paragraph 52 of his
8 statement, talking of his own knowledge. And would you please keep that
9 in mind in the follow-up questions. Please proceed.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, that may have
11 been my mistake and this is precisely why I wanted to clarify this
12 paragraph with the witness. We received some information from him, and
13 we still have to discuss Arkan's Tigers.
14 Q. Under whose command were they if any?
15 A. At the time, the Serbian Voluntary Guard of Zeljko Raznjatovic,
16 Arkan, acted, as far as I knew, in co-operation with the JNA, but also
17 with the Territorial Defence of Western Srem and Eastern Slavonia. To my
18 knowledge, they were under the direct jurisdiction of the state security
20 Q. Who was under the state security department jurisdiction?
21 A. The Serbian Voluntary Guard of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. I heard that from my superior officers and officers of the JNA
24 who were deployed in the same area where I was.
25 Q. Witness, did you give evidence earlier in this case that there
1 was one occasion on which Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and your commander
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you say on that occasion that Arkan showed to your boss an ID
5 of the state security department?
6 A. There was a conflict underground between our units and the JNA
7 units on the one hand and the units of the Serbian Volunteer Guard on the
8 other. My officer complained to my commander that they had problems with
9 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. My commander went to meet Zeljko Raznjatovic
10 in Erdut in an attempt to clarify this problem and this clash between the
11 officers on the one hand and himself on the other.
12 Q. My question was: Did Zeljko Raznjatovic on that occasion show
13 the state security department ID?
14 A. When they went to the HQ of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in Erdut,
15 they entered an office, I remained outside. They sat together, they
16 started arguing, and at one point Zeljko Raznjatovic said, you cannot
17 command me, I have my own command, you don't know who I am and what I am.
18 And at that point my commander said, I'm not interested in that. I only
19 want to avoid any conflicts between my units and your units on the
21 Then the other one took an ID out of his pocket and brandished it
22 in front of him saying that he belonged to the state security department,
23 that he obeyed their orders only, rather than orders coming from some
24 officers or police.
25 Q. Witness, I have a limited time at my disposal and I have to
1 finish by the end of this session and I'm trying to do that. Please
2 focus on my questions. I'm asking you again, did you yourself see that
3 he showed him the ID of the state security department?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it true that you saw it and that on page 2143 you said that
6 this was a blue ID?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have in
9 e-court Exhibit P488.
10 Q. In the meantime, can you tell me what was written on that ID?
11 A. As far as I was able to see written on that ID was security
12 department on the first page, then he opened it up and there was a photo,
13 but I didn't see whose photo it was.
14 Q. Can you please look at the screen. Is that the ID that you are
15 talking about?
16 A. No.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,
19 Q. Did he open this book?
20 A. Yes, he did, but I couldn't see it.
21 Q. Is this how it looked like?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the front page is not identical to the one that you saw
24 because you said it was written, what?
25 A. Security department.
1 Q. So you say security department only. Witness, I'm putting to you
2 that what you are talking about at the moment is something that you are
3 making up simply for the reason -- and the Defence team is going to prove
4 this in the further proceedings, that all members of the state security
5 and public security departments from the lowest clerk up to the minister
6 all had identical ID, and they looked like the one that we are seeing on
7 our screen?
8 A. Yes. Inside there was the name, the surname and the date of
9 issue, and also responsibilities were listed inside.
10 Q. And it was written security department on the cover?
11 A. Yes, they had official IDs with a coat of arms of the Republic of
13 Q. This is not what I'm asking you and the Bench warned you to be
14 very precise. And I think that you fully understand what I'm asking you,
15 actually. Tell me, what was written on the ID that Arkan showed?
16 A. Security department.
17 Q. There was a coat of arms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that ID is not identical to the one that I'm showing you in
20 Exhibit P488 when it comes to the cover page.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask the speakers again to
22 pause between questions and answers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One second. I think it's now the fifth or the tenth
24 time that you are asked to make a little pause between question and
25 answer. Could I remind you again. Please proceed.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, so, you had enough time to look carefully at the inside
3 of the ID?
4 A. Yes, but I couldn't see whose photo and whose details were inside
6 Q. How then were you able to see what was written there? You
7 mentioned responsibilities, the scope of responsibilities a minute ago?
8 A. Since I held this state security department ID in such a way that
9 I was able to see what was written, so if you open this booklet, you can
10 see the lists of responsibilities on the right-hand side of the booklet
11 relating to the holder of that ID.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If it happens once again, we'll change the system,
13 and then with my hands I will indicate who can speak and who cannot
14 speak, and that would be true for you, Mr. Bakrac as well. And I would
15 be hesitant to move to that system, but if you force me, I will do.
16 Mr. Bakrac, could you --
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If it's of any relevance, I do
18 apologise once again, and I will do my best and avoid your intervention,
19 if possible. Can we please now look at page 1 of the document.
20 Q. Do you see the first page of this ID?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Did you have the same ID like this one?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. What kind of ID did you have?
25 A. I had an official ID, blue one, on which it was written official
1 ID, and inside it contained my details, and underneath it was written
2 reserve police officer which meant that I didn't have all the powers as
3 an active-duty policeman would have.
4 Q. But now you told us that on the cover it was written official ID,
5 isn't that the same what is written here?
6 A. On this ID that I saw Arkan showing, that there was security
7 department written in gold letters, whereas our IDs have different
8 descriptions. And as I said, inside it was written reserve police
9 officer and there was also the date of issue.
10 Q. All right. You explained this to us. Just another
11 clarification. It seems that you didn't understand me. Now I understand
12 your description of Arkan's ID and your description of the other one.
13 I'm asking you about your ID, did you have the -- an ID that had the same
14 cover as we see on the screen which says "Official ID"?
15 A. It was blue, you could open it, it has an identification number
16 and it had the coat of arm, and this identification number referred to
17 the records of the security department.
18 Q. Where was this identification number?
19 A. Inside on the right.
20 Q. So, witness, please look at the cover of this ID, please look at
21 the screen. You said that you had on your ID the coat of arms and an
22 inscription official ID. I'm asking you again, did it look identical to
23 the one that you see on the screen?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. Now, witness, I put to you that you could not have seen any
1 official ID on which it was written "security department" because such ID
2 was never issued by MUP. All members of both the security departments --
3 state security departments and public security departments had the same
4 one as you did, and I put it to you that you are making this up?
5 A. I saw this ID in Arkan's hands. However, where he got it from
6 and how, I cannot tell you that.
7 Q. Witness, in your statement, which is Exhibit P51, you spoke about
8 in paragraph 107 the transport of oil organised by Borovica transport, a
9 company owned by Mr. Borovica. You said that you personally took part in
10 the transport of oil from Bulgaria
11 started in 1992, but you yourself were involved in 1994; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, until 1994 I worked in the Belgrade department stores,
13 that's the company I left in 1994 and I joined the company of
14 Dusan Borovica as a driver.
15 Q. And you said the following:
16 "The drivers were given cash for their daily expenses for bribing
17 customs officers and for buying fuel."
18 Did you personally give any bribes to customs officers?
19 A. Before we went on a trip, we received money, whether for oil or
20 for petrol, and we went to Burgas to tank ... And we were also given
21 money to give to the Bulgarian customs officers.
22 Q. So you gave it to the Bulgarian customs officer to allow you
23 across the border to Serbia
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you personally give any bribe to any customs officer and how
2 A. Yes, I did. It depended on the value of the goods that was in
3 the tanker. We were supposed to give a certain percentage to the customs
4 officer of that value depending on whether it was oil or petrol.
5 Q. How much did you personally give to a customs officer or the boss
6 of the customs service or whoever, because usually there was a convoy of
7 trucks and --
8 A. We knew exactly the quantity that we were to tank in Burgas, and
9 depending on that, I think that the amount of the bribe equalled 5 to 10
10 per cent of the total value.
11 Q. Where did you give them the money, at the very border crossing?
12 A. No, we would park our lorries before entering the terminal in
14 hand over the international bills of lading and the invoices, and we
15 would give them money there.
16 Q. Where was this fuel and oil transported later?
17 A. It would first be transported to Borovica Transport, then on the
18 company premises, metal frames and tarpaulin would be installed in order
19 to conceal the fact that this was a tanker lorry and so that everybody
20 would think that those were ordinary lorries.
21 Q. And where did you drive these trailers?
22 A. There were always four, five, six, sometimes ten lorries. We
23 would go to Srem hotel, the parking-lot near Sremska Mitrovica, that
24 would usually happen at dusk, and there would be a convoy of the lorries
25 carrying fuel, petrol, and other goods that could not legally cross at
1 Sremska Raca because these border crossings were manned by the observers
2 from the European Union.
3 Q. So how did you manage to pass through?
4 A. Late in the evening, the police, the traffic police would come
5 and they would provide security for the convoy up until the forest. We
6 would travel along the highway towards Sid, and we would make a detour
7 into the wood where there was a gravel road, and there was a gate there
8 which was locked, and there was a gate also at the exit point of this
10 Q. Please don't go into too many details. Where did those trucks go
11 from there?
12 A. The trucks would set off from the premises of Borovica Transport
13 company, other trucks with other goods would set off from Belgrade either
14 from the port of Belgrade
15 Q. Sir, please wait. I asked you where did they travel further, not
16 where from.
17 A. They would go through this forest, they would reach a village
18 that was outside of the border crossing which was Sremska Raca. At that
19 point all traffic between Bosanska and Sremska Raca would stop on the
20 bridge across the Sava
21 would cross the bridge to the Bosnian side where we would be met by the
22 police of Republika Srpska and Mr. Ranko Sukalo would also be there who
23 was a member of the state security of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Witness, the bridge at the Serbian Raca, you say you crossed it,
25 can you tell us, does that constitute the border between the Republic of
2 A. Yes, it's the border. However, the official border crossing was
3 roughly a kilometre away from the bridge. The border facing Republika
4 Srpska was a kilometre or a kilometre and a half away from the bridge to
5 the other side.
6 Q. Was it possible for two trucks to pass one another on the bridge?
7 A. Yes, it was. However, at the point when we were crossing the
8 bridge, traffic was closed on both ends of the bridge until we passed.
9 Q. Is there a railway track passing along the bridge as well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it possible for such a narrow bridge which also carries a
12 railway line and, I forgot to ask you, there's also a swing gate there,
13 isn't there?
14 A. Yes. Between 1992 and 1995, the railway line between Sid and
15 Bijeljina was not operational. I have to tell you that.
16 Q. In other words, a convoy numbering four or five trucks passing
17 along such a narrow bridge would make sure that their headlights were
18 switched off so that UNPROFOR would not observe them?
19 A. Not the UNPROFOR.
20 Q. Yes, my mistake. The observers; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you, witness. Tell us, did you sell the fuel in Republika
24 A. I myself did not. We already had places previously designated
25 where fuel would be decanted, some stayed at Bijeljina, a part of it
1 stayed at the Mandic petrol station in Banja Luka.
2 THE INTERPRETER: And the last part the interpreter didn't catch.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to complete
4 my examination within the next six minute. I only have two more topics
5 to cover before the break, I suppose that we will be having a break at
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the last part of the last answer of the
8 witness was not caught by the interpreters. You said some stayed at
9 Bijeljina, a part of it stayed at the Mandic petrol station in Banja
10 Luka, and what did you then said?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was taken to Knin where it was
12 decanted at a storage facility of Nenadic Petrol.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I'm trying to make a pause between the
14 answer and what I want to say. Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, you worked for the private company Borovica at the time,
17 did you not? Now, the companies you just now mentioned in Republika
18 Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina were all private companies, were they
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In your statement you also say that in the building where
22 Mr. Obrad Stevanovic was present, you took some reports that were
23 intended both for the public and state security departments; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was the building you took these reports to both for the
2 public and state security departments and which you handed over to
3 Mr. Obrad Stevanovic?
4 A. For the public security department, Mr. Obrad Stevanovic's office
5 was in the MUP of Republic of Serbia in Kneza Milosa Street.
6 Q. As I understand from your statement, that's where you left the
7 reports intended for the state security department as well, did you not?
8 A. No. Those intended for the public security department were left
9 with Mr. Obrad Stevanovic. The rest were taken to the state security
10 department at Banja --
11 THE INTERPRETER: At Banjica, interpreter's correction.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You said they were taken. Did you take them or somebody else
15 A. Well, some four or five times it was me.
16 Q. And you took them to Banjica on those occasions, did you not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who did you hand the reports over to?
19 A. Well, I would turn them over to the reception office.
20 Q. Did the reports state the addressees?
21 A. No. The envelope was sealed and the envelopes intended for the
22 public security department stated public security department, Kneza
23 Milosa Street, and the others intended for the state departments
24 mentioned as much and were intended for Banjica.
25 Q. Can you tell us how it was possible that reserve policemen who is
1 at one point a member of the police service and at other point an
2 employee of a private company should be the one charged to directly take
3 reports to Mr. Obrad Stevanovic that were intended for the public
4 security department and envelopes containing, I suppose, confidential
5 reports to the state security department? Did you go through any sort of
6 vetting by the state security department prior to them assigning these
7 duties to you?
8 A. Well, I had been vetted before I joined the security department,
9 plus Mr. Obrad Stevanovic hails from my native place, so he knew very
10 well my parents and I knew his and we knew each other personally. In
11 addition to this, my superior, Mr. Slobodan Vukolic is also a person who
12 hails from Trbusani near Cacak, which is a place near to my native area,
13 so we knew each other before the service in the security department of
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So on this basis, both the reports for the public security
18 department and sensitive reports for the state security department went
19 through you because you were on good terms with --
20 A. No, it wasn't me always who took the mail. Slobodan Vukolic
21 would join me or Stevo Pavkovic or Mr. Stanko Kukic.
22 Q. All these being your commanders; right?
23 A. Well, Mr. Vukolic was assistant brigade commander, Stevo Pavkovic
24 was commander of my unit, and Mr. Stanko Kukic was Mr. Stevo Pavkovic's
1 Q. So what you did was drive them to Belgrade only, did you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So why did you state for the statement that it was you who took
4 the reports there?
5 A. Well, I went with them. I accompanied them to the offices or
6 when they went to Stefan Obradovic's [as interpreted] office, or I
7 accompanied them to the reception office where they would hand over the
8 state security reports.
9 Q. Well, I do understand why you would go to the office of
10 Obrad Stevanovic since you hail from the same village. However, at
11 Banjica, was it not the case that you would stay behind in the car and
12 Mr. Vukolic would take the reports?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So you both went to the reception office?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave can I
17 put two more questions and then I will finish.
18 Q. Can we look at your statement again, the portion discussing
19 Western Bosnia, and the paragraph is 116 and 117. To speed up matters
20 and finish within a couple of minutes, I will sum up what you said. In
21 paragraph 117, you spoke of Western Bosnia and apparently the year is
22 1995, and then you said that the army and the police of the RS was under
23 the command of their staff; whereas, our unit was under the command of
24 Rados Mitic and Lieutenant-Colonel Mitic who came from the SUP of Backa
25 Topola, or, rather, Lieutenant-Colonel Milic, he was from
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the area around Sekovici. You go on to say
2 Arkan's units seem to be acting independently. Can you explain this for
3 us, what did you mean by this?
4 A. Well, the Arkan's units that were present in the area from
5 Prijedor all the way to Sanski Most in carrying out combat activities
6 acted independently or -- and without co-ordinating their activities with
7 the other units present in the area, both those units of Republika Srpska
8 and our units that were there.
9 Q. In other words, they did not receive orders from anyone?
10 A. Well, as far as I was able to see, they had very poor
11 co-operation with our units and our commanding officers.
12 Q. In that same paragraph, you state that there were Drina Wolves
13 units present there as well, then Vucjak Wolves, as well as Mauzer's
14 Panthers. There was also the unit of Vojvoda Mandic, also known as Manda
15 from Ugljevik; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were all these units of local Bosnian Serbs?
18 A. They were all local Bosnian Serb units that were attached to the
19 units of the Army of Republika Srpska.
20 Q. Did all these units also have red berets or wore red berets?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Which ones did wear red berets?
23 A. As far as I was able to see only Mauzer's Panthers wore red
24 berets. Arkan's units had a different sort of head wear --
25 Q. Sorry, I want to finish in a minute or two, so I have to stop you
1 there. I'll read this out for you. Drina Wolves and Vucjak Wolves who
2 wore red or grey berets, and Mauzer's Panthers who wore red or grey
3 berets. Can you tell us now, Vucjak Wolves and Mauzer's Panthers, what
4 sort of berets did they wear?
5 A. The Vucjak Wolves had grey berets and Mauzer's Panthers had red
7 Q. What about the fighters of Vojvoda Mandic, also known as Manda
8 from Ugljevik?
9 A. They wore camouflage uniforms and all manner of head wear. The
10 peaked cap, "sajkaca," et cetera, but they had camouflaged uniforms.
11 Q. Did they ever wear red berets?
12 A. No.
13 Q. My last question for you, witness, is this: How did you come
14 into contact with the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in order to testify in
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. This --
4 these were all the questions I had, and I thank you for patience. I
5 apologise again to the interpreters and to you. This was all the result
6 of my wish to finish my examination as soon as possible.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm unable to say off the top of my
9 head whether the person who has been mentioned is the subject of any
10 protective measures. Can I ask for provisional redaction and an
11 opportunity to investigate whether such measures apply.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We already take the break and we'll resume at five
14 minutes past 6.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, are you ready to cross-examine the
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Novakovic, you'll now be cross-examined by
21 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kovacevic.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask, please, that Mr. Kovacevic is given
1 this map which Your Honours should also have a copy or be about to be
2 handed a copy. Thank you. Do Your Honours have that? Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We received a small map.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. Mr. Kovacevic, you'll recognise, I presume, that this map shows
6 parts of Belgrade
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I suggest it shows part of -- or it shows Banjica; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would you be able to mark on that map whereabouts it was you went
12 when you saw Mr. Simatovic or where you went when you delivered the mail
13 to the DB, please? Put shortly, can you mark where you say the DB office
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Perhaps if you could put your initial against that in a short
17 while. So just to be sure, this is where you were told the DB office was
18 in the years between at least 1991 to 1995; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. This is where you met Mr. Simatovic in his office or around his
21 office; correct?
22 A. I was close to his office and on one occasion my superior went to
23 his office.
24 Q. And his office was in that building that you've indicated with
25 the mark on the map; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Stanisic in that building?
3 A. Well, I can't remember exactly, but it's possible that I did see
5 Q. Well, let's not guess or presume. If you can't remember, you
6 can't, but if you can, you can. Do you remember or not?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 MR. JORDASH: Okay. Perhaps if the witness could just mark it
9 with his initials, and I could ask that this be tendered as an exhibit,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was roughly somewhere there.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes --
14 JUDGE ORIE: One second. The witness apparently is now pointing
15 at some different. Your first marking, Mr. Kovacevic, was that a correct
16 one or was it a wrong one?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was wrong. When you take
18 Crnotravska Street, you come across a football club, and RAD is on your
19 left-hand side and the military academy on your right-hand side, so this
20 is the right marking.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, if you go from one street to
22 another, could you indicate on the ELMO which street you were referring
23 to where the football pitch is so that we have a better idea of what you
24 told us? Can you use the -- on the screen, of course it would have been
25 preferable if you would have this map on the screen so that it could be
1 marked on the screen that's in a electronic format.
2 No, now we can't see what the witness is telling us. Could I
3 take it what did you say, you mentioned a certain street, which street
4 were you referring to?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Crnotravska Street.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you say --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the direction where the public
8 security department building was, one could take two routes. One could
9 take the motorway to the auto command and then on to the Red Star
10 football club.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you there. Please carefully look at the
12 map in front of you. May it be replaced on the ELMO. And could you bend
13 a bit over the microphones being adjusted so that with a pointer you can
14 tell us what you are talking about. And now look at the paper copy and
15 follow the instructions of the usher. You are still looking at the
16 screen. You should look at the hands of the usher now who is standing
17 next to you. Okay. Now, is there a pointer there? Could we get a
18 pointer or a pen? Okay. Now, you point with the pen what you wanted to
19 explain to us. You said the Crnotravska Street, which is visible on the
20 map, could you tell us what you exactly meant? And point at -- bend over
21 a bit, and can the microphones be adjusted so that the interpreters still
22 can -- okay. Now, you tell us and you point with the pen what you wanted
23 to explain to us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the MUP building where the
25 public security department was housed one could take two routes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Point with the pen at the building you just
2 mentioned. Where is that found on the map?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building of the public security
4 department, which is on Kneza Milosa Street, cannot be found on this map.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I would like to hand it over to you.
6 But you may have found out the way in which I want to address it, to be
7 very precise on what you are talking about, where is it, which direction
8 do you go, and let's be very careful that sometimes people are very good
9 with maps and others are not that good, so let's verify every single step
10 the witness takes. Unless you say it's a totally different area of town.
11 MR. JORDASH: It is.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It is. Okay. Then --
13 MR. JORDASH: I think perhaps without giving anything away, the
14 place Banjica is I think approximately 10 kilometres away from where the
15 witness says the MUP office was at Kneza Milosa Street.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Is the -- apparently the medical -- the army
17 medical hospital, the Vojno Medicinska Akademija is that -- is it one or
18 has more departments? Is it one place because we have to be certain
19 about it?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I
21 should step in and assist my colleague. In the centre of Belgrade there
22 used to be a building of the military medical academy which relocated to
23 Banjica, this particular venue once it was built. And this is the one
24 and only building of the VMA. Sometimes when people wish to refer to the
25 old venue of the hospital, they would say the old VMA, but as soon as the
1 hospital relocated to this venue, the other venue was no longer used by
2 the VMA.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps still known under that name which is a
4 possibility. I mean, the Esso building in The Hague is not used by Esso
5 since ages, so I just want to avoid whatever. I leave it again in your
6 hands, but I'm trying to figure out whether there is an explanation for
7 such a huge discrepancy, whether we can understand it or whether it's
8 totally understandable other than by unreliability of the witness.
9 MR. JORDASH: If I can -- we tried -- I will try to get a map
10 with both locations on it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: And we did try it before but it wasn't proving
13 possible, but overnight I think we might be able to solve that problem.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I had a concern because I tried to follow it
15 and I make this now known to everyone on the satellite version of Google
16 Maps, and I noticed that the second marking is at a place where there's
17 no building at all. So perhaps we'll continue this tomorrow.
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I can pick up with this tomorrow. Thank you.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, so the record is preserved: At this
20 point, the witness has made two markings. Can I ask - what he is saying
21 is an errant marking - can I ask that he be instructed to draw an X
22 through what he says was an errant initial marking and a circle around
23 the marking that he says was a state security facility?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The first marking, was that the one you said
25 was wrong, Mr. Kovacevic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last time I went to the state
2 security department building was in 1994, so I can't remember with
3 precision, but what I do know is that when one leaves the MUP building
4 which is where the public security department is housed, is that one can
5 take two routes, the motorway Zagreb-Nis --
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal at a later stage again with the location.
7 We leave it for awhile. But the marking you made on this map, was the
8 first one the wrong one?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because when one arrives from
10 the direction of the Crnotravska Street, that's to say from the direction
11 of the clinical hospital centre Banjica, one passes along the military
12 medical academy and the RAD football club pitch, and then one turns right
13 towards the state security building.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the RAD football pitch is on the map, so
15 therefore it's really confusing me. Mr. Jordash, may I suggest that we
16 work with the best available material, that you first, perhaps, gain some
17 additional information and then perhaps that we could come up with the
18 satellite pictures which makes it better possible to look at what we see.
19 Maps have their limitations.
20 MR. JORDASH: I'll do my best overnight.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's not extremely complex, I would say.
22 And I take it that it's no major problem to have the Google map satellite
23 picture copied or have it that on the screen. I can have it on my
24 internet screen within a second.
25 MR. JORDASH: I'm sure we can manage that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then with the location we'll deal with that
2 tomorrow. We still have not had an answer. You said, and don't explain
3 why, but your first marking was the wrong one?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the wrong one.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And the first marking was the one above the
6 Vojno Medicinska Akademija, is that right, and the second marking was
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first marking is in front of
9 the VMA as one takes the Crnotravska street from the direction of the
10 medical clinical centre Banjica, and the other one is actually behind the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Look at the map you marked, you see that? Do you
13 see the map on your screen?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The first marking higher up and the second marking
16 further down?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one is behind the academy and
18 if you look at the other one from the direction of the centre of the
19 town, it's actually in front of the academy.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I was asking. You pointed at two
21 markings. I want to establish whether the marking a bit higher up was
22 the first one you made, whereas the lower one was the second one you
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one below is the one that I did
25 as the second marking and the one above is my first marking.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record. Mr. Groome, I do not know
2 whether we are going to do anything with this, whether you want to tender
3 this into evidence or, Mr. Groome, whether you have any interest in
4 looking at this rather than at what we'll see tomorrow.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I agree that we should pursue a
6 satellite version, but I do believe this should be preserved for the
7 record. So if my colleague is not going to tender it, I would tender it
8 from the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we mark it for identification at this moment,
10 because to admit it into evidence the probative value might be a bit of a
11 problem in view of.
12 MR. JORDASH: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the hard copy, because that's what
14 it is at this moment, the hard copy of a map that should now be given to
15 the Registrar receives what number?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D96, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D96 is marked for identification. Please proceed.
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. You provided various statements, Mr. Kovacevic, in which you
20 allege to have met Mr. Stanisic. Please, could you indicate when you
21 first met him?
22 A. Chronologically, I can't remember when it was the first time I
23 saw him. The first time I saw him was for a short time only. The second
24 time was maybe 1994 --
25 Q. Pause, pause. Let's deal with this slowly and chronologically.
1 The first time you met him, you met him where?
2 A. The first time I met him was, I believe, in the state security
4 Q. At Banjica?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, which year was this, please?
7 A. I think it was sometime in 1991. I don't recall exactly when.
8 Q. What were the circumstances? What gave rise to you seeing or
9 meeting him?
10 A. The circumstances were such that Stojan Petkovic, then Slobodan
11 Vukolic, and Obrad Stevanovic were supposed to attend a meeting in the
12 state security department.
13 Q. And did they attend that meeting?
14 A. I drove them all the way to the building. I accompanied them to
15 the reception box as well as to Mr. Stanisic's office. They got into the
16 office, they stepped into the office, and I waited for them outside. I
17 waited for the meeting to end.
18 Q. And you saw -- and did you see Mr. Stanisic?
19 A. They stepped into his office, and as they did they shook hands
20 with him, and then I saw him for a moment.
21 Q. When they emerged from the meeting, did they tell you what they'd
22 discussed or why they'd attended for the meeting?
23 A. No, they didn't.
24 Q. And was that the end of the first time you saw Mr. Stanisic? You
25 left the meeting?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the second time?
3 A. The second time I can't remember when that was, but I think that
4 while loading goods for Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian
5 Krajina at the Danube
6 workers to see how this convoy is being arranged and dispatched, and the
7 rest of it.
8 Q. What happened during that occasion then? What did you experience
9 Mr. Stanisic doing?
10 A. Well, Mr. Jovica Stanisic talked there to some people who were
11 making preparations for the departure of the convoy to Republika Srpska
12 and the Serbian Republic
13 Q. And which people was he speaking to?
14 A. The only person I knew then who was not a member of either the
15 state or public security department was Mr. Ljubisa Buha of Surcin.
16 There were also some other people whom I did not know.
17 Q. Did you hear Mr. Stanisic speak?
18 A. No, because I was some 20 metres away and I was standing by a
19 lorry full of goods.
20 Q. So you have no idea what he said?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you were not told what he said?
23 A. No. He probably gave some instructions to the people who were
24 escorting the convoy to the border line with Republika Srpska. The two
25 men from this escort crossed over to Republika Srpska together with us.
1 Q. Why do you say he probably gave some instructions? You didn't
2 hear, you were not told, why do you say he probably gave some
4 A. I said that because the people who were talking to him and to
5 some other people, there were a total of them five or six, and they left
6 together with us in official cars and headed for the border crossing.
7 Q. Why does that make you think that he probably gave them
8 instructions? It's not clear to me why that should lead you to make that
9 probable conclusion.
10 A. Well, this convoy was made up of some 20 to 25 lorries, all of
11 them loaded with various goods, specifically in my lorry there were
12 cigarettes, in other there was ammunition, there was foodstuffs, and
13 there were also lorries carrying fuel --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Oil and petrol.
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. But that's not an answer to the question. What was in the
17 lorries is one thing. What Mr. Stanisic said or didn't say is another.
18 Why are you suggesting he probably gave some instructions?
19 A. Well, I don't see any other reason for his being there because
20 these people who accompanied us and the convoy up to the border, we were
21 also escorted by the police from the public security department, later on
22 we were taken over by the state security of Republika Srpska, and we were
23 also met by members of the state security department or section from
24 Sremska Mitrovica.
25 Q. Okay. The Danube
1 A. Well, the Danube
2 transportation. Everybody calls it the Danube port. It's on the river
4 far end of Francusla Street.
5 Q. And what year was this?
6 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was in 1994.
7 Q. Well, was it before the hostage crisis in which Stanisic played a
9 A. That was before the hostage crisis.
10 Q. How long before?
11 A. I can't tell you exactly. Could be one month or month and a
13 Q. Right. So shortly before that, let's call it that. Do you agree
14 with that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, did you see Mr. Stanisic again?
17 A. Not until the hostage crisis arose.
18 Q. And in what circumstances did you see him then?
19 A. I saw him when my unit was deployed as a security detail near the
20 town of Zvornik where the crossing is.
21 Q. What was your security --
22 A. That is between Zvornik and Belgrade.
23 Q. What was your security detail doing? Sorry, what was your unit
24 doing? Who was it securing?
25 A. Well, my unit was securing the road leading from Zvornik via
1 Banja Koviljaca-Loznica-Sabac, and then along the highway to Belgrade
2 Q. To what purpose?
3 A. To ensure safe passage of troops and the hostages who were being
4 transported to Belgrade
5 Q. All right. Let's have a look at -- actually before we do that,
6 did you see Mr. -- what was Mr. Stanisic doing when you saw him on this
8 A. Mr. Stanisic came from Republika Srpska. The column that crossed
9 the Drina
10 in a bus, Mr. Stanisic got out. They stayed there some 10 or 15 minutes,
11 and then the convoy proceeded towards Belgrade. Our duty was to close
12 off all the secondary roads in order to prevent anyone driving along this
13 road and especially along the highway to Belgrade.
14 Q. And after that occasion, did you have any other time when you saw
15 him in person?
16 A. During the celebration dedicated to the special operations unit.
17 Q. That's the Kula award ceremony, is that what you are referring
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Right. I want to now refer you to the accounts you've just --
21 you've given before about meeting Mr. Stanisic.
22 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on e-court, please, P51. Sorry, I
23 beg your pardon, no, could we have 1D01213. Please forgive me, please
24 can we go to, I beg your pardon, it's proofing note of the 24th and 25th
25 of August, 2009, which is P53. I don't think this has been translated so
1 I'll read out what I'm interested in. Could we go to paragraph 28,
3 Q. You recall meeting Mr. Hoffmann, the Prosecutor, in August of
4 2009 shortly before you first gave evidence in this trial? Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Paragraph 28 says:
8 "He saw Jovica Stanisic a few times. The first time was possibly
9 in 1992 or 1993 at the Luka harbour in Belgrade." Is that correct?
10 A. I said that it was sometime in 1994 because that is when this
11 convoy left and that was in 1994.
12 Q. Well, if we go to the end of this statement, it says:
13 "These notes have been read out to me in Serbian and contain
14 everything I said to the best of my knowledge and memory."
15 And I think if we go to paragraph 39, we'll see your signature.
16 Will you confirm, when we get there, that that's your signature?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I think you're ahead of us. Is that your signature?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Right. So you read this, you read the fact it said that the
21 first time you met Jovica Stanisic was possibly in 1992 or 1993, and you
22 confirmed it, didn't you?
23 A. In 1992 I saw him at the state security department offices, and
24 the second time I saw him at the harbour or at the Danube port was in
25 1994, that's what I remember.
1 Q. Okay. I'm not going to spend too much time on this. I'll just
2 put one question and ask you to explain why it was you signed this
3 document when it had this inaccurate information in it?
4 A. I signed this document because at that point I was unable to
5 remember exactly whether it was in 1993 or 1994. Later on when I
6 reviewed my notes that I have at home, I realised that was in 1994.
7 Q. I am glad you've raised the notes, because you mention those
8 notes when you gave evidence in, I think, the -- another trial. Have you
9 not brought those notes with you to show your contemporaneous record or a
10 more contemporaneous record? Why haven't you brought them with you?
11 A. I did bring my notes but nobody asked to see them.
12 Q. Where are they?
13 A. That's why I didn't bring them this time. They are in my
14 possession. They are put in chronological order, and I have copies of
15 travel orders and dispatch notes for the goods that were being
17 Q. And you've never told the Prosecution about that? That you have
18 these notes?
19 A. At the time when I give my statement in Belgrade in 2003, I
20 informed the investigators about this; however, they told me to keep the
21 notes with me and they would tell me in due time if they become necessary
22 and ask me to present them.
23 Q. Did you bring them when you testified in the -- just pausing
24 because of protective measures. Is there a problem referring to the
25 specific case in public?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Out of an abundance of caution, perhaps you better
6 go to private session.
7 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 6743-6751 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We adjourn for the day. And we resume
4 tomorrow, Thursday, the 2nd of September at a quarter past 2.00 in this
5 same Courtroom I.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.12 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of
8 September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.