Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7179

 1                           Tuesday, 14 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case IT-03-69-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             We find ourselves today in a bit of an odd situation.  The air

12     condition is not functioning well.  The spare part needed is expected to

13     arrive somewhere this afternoon.  Most likely we'll move after the first

14     session to another courtroom which is not available now yet.  Meanwhile

15     we have fans, ventilators.  Of course, we could have also chosen not to

16     use them and see how the temperature will be.  As matters stand now, I

17     suggest that we start with the fans on.  Since almost everyone is using

18     his earphones, I hope that the noise of the fans is not too disturbing,

19     but if everyone would prefer to have them switched off, then we'll give

20     that a try as well.

21             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

22             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution calls JF-039.

23     There are a couple of preliminary matters if I might address the Chamber

24     about.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 7180

 1             MR. GROOME:  On the 29th of April, 2010, the Prosecution filed an

 2     application seeking two things with respect to this witness.  First, that

 3     his testimony be taken by video, and two that his protective measures be

 4     augmented to include voice distortion.

 5             The witness is presently in The Hague and therefore the

 6     Prosecution moves to withdraw its application for videolink.  With

 7     respect to the request for voice distortion, I would add that this

 8     witness currently benefits from protective measures issued by another

 9     Trial Chamber.  After having given evidence in that case, the witness was

10     challenged by someone who recognised that it was he that was giving

11     evidence.  The Prosecution believes that the added protection of voice

12     distortion may prevent this after his testimony in this case.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Even without having heard the Defence, the motion to

14     withdraw the application for videolink is granted.  I cannot imagine of

15     any reason why we should not grant it where the witness is now in The

16     Hague.  The second ...

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as voice distortion is concerned, I'd

19     like to hear from the Defence.  I think the Defence teams opposed it.  I

20     observe that the difference with the protective measures in place is that

21     the public who is supposed not to identify the person, who supposed not

22     to see the person's face will, if the motion would be granted, not hear

23     his original voice.  That is only a slight difference, and the Defence

24     teams are invited to explain what is opposing this slight change as far

25     as the public character of the trial is concerned.  If there's any need

Page 7181

 1     to do this in private session, you are reminded that we have already

 2     protective measures in place.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

 5             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] The Simatovic Defence has no

 6     objection either.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the motion to extend the protective measures to

 8     voice distortion is granted.  The reasons being that it adds to the

 9     protection which is already in place, that is that the identity of the

10     witness will not be known to the public to avoid any further risk.

11             Any other matter?

12             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  Just to assist the Chamber in its

13     scheduling.  I anticipate that my examination will be substantially

14     shorter than three hours, possibly under two hours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that doesn't surprise me in view of what we've

16     seen as 92 ter material.  Any other matter before we ask the witness to

17     be escorted into the courtroom?  No, then one final check.  There was a

18     problem with the voice distortion, Madam Registrar, has it been fixed?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  No, it hasn't been fixed.  I've been just

20     informed that technicians are working on it and they cannot provide any

21     estimations how it's going to be or when it's going to be fixed, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  A way of dealing with it would be that we would

24     start in closed session and then later make public the transcript of the

25     first part of the testimony.  Especially since we do not know whether we

Page 7182

 1     have to wait for five or ten minutes or for an hour, it's a loss of

 2     valuable core time and the content of the testimony will then still be

 3     made public.  Any comments of the parties?

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has no objection to

 5     proceeding in that manner.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  The Defence has no objection, although we would

 7     wish for the testimony in large part to be heard in public, and I mean

 8     contemporaneously in public, though something is lost by issuing

 9     transcripts.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

11             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] We have no problem with proceeding

12     this way.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I fully agree with you that this is not

14     the preferred way to proceed, but we have to balance at this moment also

15     the uncertainty about when it will be fixed and we have two days left

16     this week, otherwise the witness will have to stay over until Monday the

17     20th, and in order to avoid that and in view of the limited loss of

18     information, and still there's some loss, I do agree with you, but one of

19     the thing we could do is to invite Mr. Groome to start as much as

20     possible with portions of his examination-in-chief for which he would

21     have asked private session anyhow because then I don't know to what

22     extent that is possible, Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:  It certainly is possible, Your Honour, but I had

24     anticipated only spending about five minutes in private session, so I'm

25     not sure.

Page 7183

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if I -- okay, but that's -- one second.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have a suggestion if the Chamber --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

 5             MR. GROOME:  -- was looking for a suggestion to how to use the

 6     time productively.  The Chamber had asked for detailed submissions with

 7     respect to a matter that arose with the last two witnesses regarding

 8     interview notes.  I'd be prepared to use this time to make those detailed

 9     submissions now, I don't know if my colleagues on the Defence are.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm quite hesitant because my first concern is the

11     next witness and see whether we can conclude hearing his evidence as soon

12     as possible, so that would not be resolved by your suggestion.  When I

13     say that we would hear the testimony in closed session, private session

14     would do, I take it, because we have face distortion and we have

15     pseudonym and together with private session the effect would be the same.

16     We move into private session.

17          [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Trial Chamber] 

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in private session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             Just to inform the parties if you'll hear the testimony in

21     private session, the witness is accompanied by an accompanying person who

22     is allowed to follow the proceedings and that person can follow the

23     proceedings from the public gallery but then we have to ensure that the

24     public gallery is not accessible to what it is for, that is for the

25     public.  So if the parties see a person or persons moving in the public

Page 7184

 1     gallery, I have instructed Madam Registrar to ensure that it's only that

 2     person who can follow the proceedings, and at the beginning of the

 3     testimony, I'll instruct that person in the public gallery not to

 4     disclose anything which is said in private session.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, are we allowed to inquire as to who

 6     this person is?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  This is usually, I would refer you to -- the Chamber

 8     doesn't know.  It's usually a person of confidence accompanying the

 9     witness.  Let me just check, one second.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to seek the advice of VWS before disclosing

12     the name of a person.  The Chamber is not aware of the name of that

13     person.  It's usually VWS who decides whether a witness can be

14     accompanied by a person.

15   (redacted)

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Page 7185

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Page 7186

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 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have considered the matter with my colleagues.

11     There are two aspects which may be relevant for our decision.  The one

12     aspect is that the public under normal circumstances would know about the

13     content of the testimony, so the risks would be the same if we didn't

14     have this technical problem.  There is another matter.  The one person

15     for whom the protective measures are not needed is the support person.  I

16     mean, he knows the voice of the witness, he knows his identity, and knows

17     his face, so therefore the whole exercise of protective measures, of

18     course, are totally without any sense in relation to this person.  And to

19     that extent, there's no need in view of the reasons why the witness is

20     protected to exclude this person from following the proceedings.

21   (redacted)

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Page 7187

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 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber decides that the support person is

 8     allowed to follow the proceedings from the public gallery and therefore

 9     it should be ensured that no other member of the public has access to the

10     public gallery at this moment.  May the witness be brought into the

11     courtroom.  Is the support person already present in the public gallery?

12     I have difficulties in looking through the smoke glass.  Not.  Then

13     access should be given to him and I would like to briefly address that

14     person.

15             The technicians have no expectation at this moment how they could

16     fix the failing voice distortion.  Since it was planned already to move

17     to another courtroom after the first break, that may resolve at least

18     part of the problem.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness JF-039.  Can you hear me in

21     a language you understand?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  May I invite you to make a solemn declaration of

24     which the text is now handed out to you.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could one of the

Page 7188

 1     alternative microphones please be switched on, we can't hear the witness.

 2     Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the other -- another microphone be switched

 4     on, or both.  Yes, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start your examination, Witness JF-039,

10     I'd like to explain to you a few matters.  First of all, the air

11     conditioning in this courtroom is not functioning -- the witness

12     apparently doesn't receive interpretation.  Mr. Usher, could you check

13     with the witness.  Do you now receive interpretation?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I started explaining you a few matters.

16     First of all, the air conditioning has broken down in this courtroom

17     which means that we find ourselves in not the preferred atmosphere.  It's

18     too warm, there's a likelihood that we'll move to another courtroom after

19     the first break.

20             Second, Witness JF-039, protective measures are in place in

21     respect of you.  You will testify under pseudonym, that's the reason why

22     I call you JF-039 and not -- I do not call you by your own name.  Second,

23     no one outside this courtroom will see your face, face distortion is in

24     place.  In addition to that, voice distortion is granted as an additional

25     protective measures.  However, at this moment the system doesn't work as

Page 7189

 1     it should and therefore at this very moment we are in private session,

 2     but there is a chance that to the extent not needed for your protection

 3     that the transcript later will be made available to the public just as

 4     the public would have been informed about the content of your testimony

 5     if all the protective measures were functioning well.

 6             Further, you are accompanied by a support person.  The Chamber

 7     has allowed that support person to be present also during this part of

 8     the hearing.  However, at the end of today's session I will instruct you,

 9     and the same applies for the breaks today, that you should not speak or

10     communicate with anyone about your testimony, and that would include your

11     support person.  So you are under an order not to speak one word about

12     your testimony whether that will be testimony you have already given or

13     testimony you still are expected to give with anyone including your

14     support person.  If you would violate this order, you expose yourself to

15     an investigation and even possibly a Prosecution for contempt of court.

16     So you should be very cautious.  Talk about the weather, talk about your

17     families.  He is here, as I do understand, a personal friend, (redacted)

18     (redacted) do not speak about

19     your testimony with anyone including the support person.  Is that clear?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, it is.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it that the support person who has

22     meanwhile been given access to the public gallery has also understood

23     that whatever he hears when we are in private session should not be

24     disclosed to the public and in addition to that, that the support person

25     should not discuss, speak, communicate in whatever way with the witness

Page 7190

 1     about the testimony.

 2             Is there any way that I could have confirmation that the support

 3     person has understood this and that he will abide to this order?  I

 4     cannot see if raising a hand would -- but I do not see whether the

 5     support person is already in the public gallery.

 6             MR. GROOME:  He is, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the support person are perhaps stand for a

 8     second and by raising his hand confirm that he has both understood and

 9     will obey to the orders?  I do understand that he cannot hear us.  Then

10     when we are in the other courtroom --

11             MR. GROOME:  He is motioning that there are no headsets in there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd like to be informed as soon as he has

13     received a headset so that I can extend the instructions.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, if it assists, we take no point in

15     relation to a delayed warning if Your Honours consider that appropriate.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would like to proceed, as a matter of fact.

17     At the same time, of course, I want to take every caution to seek

18     confirmation that the support person has understood my instructions.

19     Apparently it doesn't work, then he can watch.

20             MR. GROOME:  He is still in there without a headset.  I have an

21     extra headset here on our table.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a technical problem in there as

23     well, so let's just proceed.  As soon as there's a chance that the words

24     spoken in this courtroom can be heard by the support person, I'd like to

25     be informed immediately so that I can give the instructions relevant for

Page 7191

 1     the witness, otherwise we'll wait until we have moved to another

 2     courtroom.

 3             Witness JF-039, you'll first be examined by Mr. Groome.

 4     Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution.  Mr. Groome.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6                           WITNESS:  JF-039

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness JF-039.

10             MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that we display 65 ter 5763 on the screen

11     before the witness.

12        Q.   JF-039, you should soon see a document displayed on the screen to

13     your right.  When you do and have had a chance to read it, I would ask

14     you to confirm whether it is your name that we see on the screen.

15        A.   Yes, that's my name.

16        Q.   Is that your date of birth that we see?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, we can see, JF-039, is the other number on that screen the

19     pseudonym that you were assigned at a prior proceeding before this

20     Tribunal?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would

23     tender 65 ter 5763 under seal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I see the -- there's only one version, only

25     the original version of this document, yes.

Page 7192

 1             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P976, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P976 is admitted under seal.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if we were not faced with the technical

 5     difficulties, I would be asking for the next several questions to be

 6     taken in private session, so I will mark that on the record.  Hopefully

 7     it will assist the Chamber.

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Page 7193

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 8        Q.   Do you believe that you can provide reliable information to this

 9     Chamber with respect to when a particular event occurred?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, again if we had not had technical

12     difficulty, I would be asking to move out of private session at this

13     time.  (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             Now, I'd ask that 65 ter 5762 be brought to our screens.  It is

18     the prior testimony of this witness and I will not say the dates as this

19     may become public.

20        Q.   Prior to coming to the Hague, JF-039, were you provided with a

21     copy of your prior testimony in another proceeding?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review the transcript of that

24     proceedings or of your evidence in those proceedings?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7194

 1        Q.   Is the transcript with respect to your testimony accurate and

 2     truthful?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today that you were asked

 5     in your examination in that other proceeding, would you give the same

 6     answers in substance?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Having reviewed the transcript of these proceedings, do you wish

 9     to make any corrections or clarifications to your prior evidence in those

10     proceedings?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What corrections do you want to make?  Are there corrections that

13     you want to make with respect to those prior proceedings?

14        A.   Could I please ask for my statement from the last time I

15     testified, could I get that, the copy to have a look and see whether

16     there was anything that I needed to correct.

17        Q.   There are two things that I'm going to ask you about, one is your

18     prior testimony and one is your statement.  I will bring your statement

19     to the screen in a few minutes.  Just focusing on the transcript of your

20     prior testimony, having reviewed that, are there any corrections that you

21     wish to make to your prior testimony?

22        A.   No, I don't.

23        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

24     accuracy and truthfulness of the -- your testimony in the prior

25     proceedings?

Page 7195

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would

 3     tender 65 ter 5762 into evidence under seal.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P977 under seal, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted under seal.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Now, can we please see 65 ter 5761 on the screen

 9     before us.  And this is a signed statement.  Again I will not say the

10     date in the event that this part of the proceedings are in public.

11        Q.   Now, Witness JF-039, while we are waiting for that to be

12     displayed, were you interviewed by members of the Office of the

13     Prosecutor in 2003?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can I ask you to look at the first page of 65 ter 5761, and after

16     you do that, let us know that you have seen it and then I will ask that

17     you be shown the last page before I ask a question.

18        A.   Yes, that is the statement that I made, the first page.

19             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we go to the last page.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we perhaps move this one up a bit so that

21     we ...  Now you've seen the whole of the page in the original, your

22     answer still is the same, I take it?

23             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

24     interrupting but I've lost the transcript.  I have neither the transcript

25     nor the e-court.  Neither the LiveNote nor the e-court on my screens.

Page 7196

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  A technician is called to assist you.  Perhaps you

 2     could exceptionally sit next to Mr. Jordash so that you are able to --

 3     you lost it on both your screens?  My apologies, Mr. Jordash, for making

 4     invitations on your part.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  It's a pleasure.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's move on and a technician will

 7     resolve the problem as soon as possible.

 8             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Both screens, Your Honour, but I

 9     think I can just move over to the next station.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Find the best screen you can see.  Please proceed.

11             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we move to the last page of 65 ter

12     5761.  It's the signature page, not the annexes to the -- not the annexes

13     to the statement.

14        Q.   JF-039, while we still have the first page, is that your

15     signature on the bottom of this page, or your initials?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. GROOME:  Are we able to move to the signature page?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It's in e-court page 20 out of 28.  Or 19, both.  I

19     think 19 is even better.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the other microphones please be

21     switched off not being used at the moment.  There is a lot of background

22     noise, thank you.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please indicate which page is

24     it, because we cannot locate it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think page 19 out of 28 in e-court, which is the

Page 7197

 1     witness acknowledgement.  That's what you were seeking, Mr. Groome?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   JF-039, we now have the acknowledgement page.  Can you see your

 4     signature on that page?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is this the statement you provided to investigators of the Office

 7     of the Prosecutor in 2003?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this statement after you

10     arrived here in The Hague?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And did you inform me with respect to a number of corrections and

13     clarifications you wished to make to this statement?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I am going to draw your attention to particular paragraphs and

16     ask you to make whatever clarifications or corrections you feel are

17     necessary to ensure that the statement is accurate.

18             MR. GROOME:  Could we please go to paragraph 20 of the statement.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In English it starts on page 5 of 28, but only one

20     line, the remainder on page 6 out of 28.

21        Q.   After you have read the line on this page, we will move to the

22     next page?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be shown the witness in his own language.

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7198

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 3             MR. GROOME:  Could we advance to the next page, please, to the

 4     rest of paragraph 20.

 5        Q.   Can I ask you to read the remainder of 20 and advise us with

 6     respect to what clarifications or corrections you wish to make to this

 7     paragraph?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, for the accused it would be good to

 9     have the B/C/S version on our screens as well.  And in B/C/S it's page 5

10     out of 17.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to change this part.

12     Perhaps I didn't understand but the statement -- I didn't mean it.  I am

13     sorry, I lost the right-hand half of the screen.

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   JF-039, when you point on that screen, we are unable to see what

16     you are pointing at, so if you would please draw our attention by reading

17     the portion of the statement and then tell us what the correction should

18     be.  We cannot see that either, so if you just indicate where you are

19     referring by just saying the words that you wish to change.

20      A.   I would like to change this part where it says:  "Martic (redacted)

21     (redacted) had asked Stanisic to send a unit of Special Police to Knin to

22     bring in weapons."  That part.  Because I did not --

23        Q.   Please explain now the clarification you wish to make to that

24     portion?

25        A.   [Interpretation] Martic was just expecting the weapons to arrive

Page 7199

 1     from Belgrade.  On that occasion, early that morning, he sent me to the

 2     police station to welcome those people.  He knew ahead of time that the

 3     policemen at the police station --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 5     be asked to repeat the last part of his answer, we didn't understand.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   JF-039, the interpreters did not hear the last portion of your

 8     answer.  Could you please repeat the last portion.  Can you please sit

 9     back in your chair, relax, and just speak in a normal voice into the

10     mikes in front of you, and then if you could repeat the last portion of

11     your answer, please.

12        A.   Martic quite simply was expecting a delivery of weapons from

13     Serbia but was not expecting a unit of the Special Police.

14        Q.   Now, can I draw your attention to paragraph 27.  That will be

15     displayed for you.  Can you read it and tell us what, if any, corrections

16     or clarifications you wish to make to paragraph 27.

17        A.   In paragraph 27 I wish to correct the following:  I probably got

18     the year wrong.  Nevertheless, this is an error.  It should be 1991 and

19     not 1992.  So that is what I wish to correct.

20        Q.   Just so that we are clear, the only date that I see in that

21     paragraph is 9th March, 1992.  Are you saying that that should be 9th

22     March, 1991?

23        A.   Exactly.

24        Q.   Is there anything else in this paragraph that you wish to correct

25     or clarify?

Page 7200

 1        A.   There is another thing to clarify or correct.  Stanisic asked him

 2     for 150 men but Martic didn't have the amount of men available to him at

 3     the time.  He had maybe 50, 60, 70 at the very most.  So 60 men were

 4     finally off to Belgrade.

 5        Q.   Are there any other changes to this paragraph?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we now go to paragraph 38.

 8        Q.   And can you advise us whether you have any clarifications with

 9     respect to this paragraph.

10        A.   As for paragraph 38, there is a clarification that I wish to

11     make.  There was no direct departure from Golubic camp for Korenica.

12     Part of the command centre was moved with some men to the fortress in

13     Knin.

14        Q.   Just allowing those of us who only read English to read the

15     remainder of that paragraph.  Are there any other corrections or

16     clarifications to paragraph 38?

17        A.   No.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I ask Mr. Groome to clarify that

19     further because it's a change perhaps of some significance and it is not

20     exactly clear, to me at least, what that change means.

21             MR. GROOME:  Yes, I'll do that.

22        Q.   JF-039, could you explain in a little more detail what is the

23     change that you are making to paragraph 38?  What is the new information

24     that you are providing with respect to that paragraph?

25        A.   This is not new information, as a matter of fact.  Some of the

Page 7201

 1     men along with the main command, if I can call it that, moved to the Knin

 2     fortress.  There was room there for maybe 20 or 30 men.  At this point in

 3     time the regular TO was on its way in, therefore, there is no huge

 4     discrepancy because the command centre with Frenki and Captain Dragan

 5     moved to the main command in the fortress, and some men were sent to

 6     Udbina while some other men were sent to Korenica.  They came there and

 7     we later sent up a centre there.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we now go to paragraph 47.

 9        Q.   And if we can follow the same procedure, please read it and let

10     us know what, if any, corrections or clarifications you have?

11             MR. GROOME:  If we could advance the English translation or

12     English original so that we see the remainder.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 47, when Golubic was

14     opened, Frenki decided to get an armoured train with four or five

15     couches -- coaches.  He set that up and there was a unit numbering about

16     30 men at the beginning who he then trained.

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   Is there anything else you want to clarify with respect to this

19     paragraph?

20        A.   When they finished altogether and the armoured train was

21     completed, they test drove it along the Gracac-Lovinac route during an

22     attack.  Frenki took the armoured train from Gracac to Lovinac to the

23     right at a 90 degree angle in relation to Udbina.  It was more in order

24     to intimidate people.  It wasn't meant to help take that village.  It was

25     more in terms of intimidating the local population and driving them to

Page 7202

 1     leave the area.

 2        Q.   Can I take you to some of the last remaining paragraphs.

 3     Paragraph 53.  Can you read this paragraph and let us know what, if any,

 4     clarification you wish to make?

 5        A.   Paragraph 53, I just wish to explain one thing.  Afterwards, when

 6     Martic had won the election, there were about 20 or 30 of us.  He gave us

 7     in shillings the remainder of the money that he had received for the

 8     election.  When I took that to the bank, it was about 1.400 German marks

 9     altogether.  I wasn't meaning here to be specific about the amount in

10     shilling.  I don't know how that translates into the German currency, the

11     German mark.

12             So what I would like to change here is the figure 300.000.  I

13     don't know really whether it was 300.000 or not.  When I exchanged that

14     money, we all got more or less the same kind of money, about 1.400 German

15     marks.

16        Q.   Now, can I draw with your attention to paragraph 54, and I

17     believe we only have to advance the B/C/S version.  Is there a correction

18     you wish to make to that paragraph?

19        A.   I can't see all of it.  I'm not sure if it's the whole thing that

20     I'm looking at.  There is one thing that I'd like to add.

21     (redacted) Chief of police, Knin, was name -- station commander was

22     Nikola Amanovic, A, Amanovic not Manovic.  (redacted) It's not

23     Manovic, there's another letter that precedes the name, Amanovic.

24        Q.   And is that the letter A?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 7203

 1             MR. GROOME:  Now, the last two remaining clarifications I would

 2     do in private session.  Can I ask that we look at paragraph 5.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Any other corrections or clarifications to this paragraph?

20        A.   No.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this point I would be asking to

22     move out of private session.

23        Q.   JF-039, are these all of the corrections and clarifications you

24     wish to make to your statement?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7204

 1        Q.   If you were to be asked the same questions you were asked during

 2     this interview, would you provide the same answers in substance along

 3     with the clarifications and corrections?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

 6     accuracy and truthfulness of the information contained in this statement

 7     along with your testimony about corrections and clarifications?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution will

10     tender 65 ter 5761 into evidence under seal.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P978 under seal, Your

13     Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P978 is admitted under seal.

15             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask for the assistance of the usher in

16     distributing a document to the parties and to the Chamber.  Your Honours,

17     at this time the Prosecution tenders all of the exhibits admitted as

18     evidence during JF-039's direct testimony in the prior proceeding.

19     Courtesy copies of a document enumerating these seven exhibits is now

20     being distributed.  The 65 ter numbers for these exhibits are 2803 to

21     2808 and 5764.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll later invite Madam Registrar to assign numbers

23     to these exhibits.  Are there any objections against admission?  Then the

24     numbers to be announced later, these seven associated exhibits, are

25     admitted into evidence.  We'll come back to that after the break.

Page 7205

 1     Mr. Groome.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   JF-039, I want to now ask you a few questions --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I'm looking at the clock.  We are

 5     approximately 75 minutes underway and everyone is dying for moving to

 6     another courtroom which will be available after the break.  I, however,

 7     have one or two small questions in relation to one of the specific

 8     issues, one of the corrections, which I prefer to have clarified

 9     immediately.

10             Witness, you made a correction about the money you got.  I think

11     you said there were about 20 or 30 of you.  Did you all get similar

12     amount of money in Austrian shillings?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And do I understand that you got 1.400 Deutschemarks

15     at the bank for the shillings you had received?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The total amount in Austrian shillings you

18     mentioned, and you said you do not know whether it's precise or not, is

19     that the money that you said was distributed among you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Your Honour, it's not about

21     the money that we got, it's about the money that was left after the

22     election.  Quite simply, this was some sort of reward for the job that we

23     had done for him during the pre-election campaign.  It was some sort of

24     remuneration, you might say.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that point.  But the total amount you

Page 7206

 1     mentioned, I think in your first statement you were talking about 300.000

 2     Austrian shillings, was that the money that was left over after the

 3     election or was that the money that Mr. Martic had received for the

 4     purposes of his election?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of that is the overall sum that

 6     Martic got for the election.  Actually, I believe this requires an

 7     explanation on my part.  When Martic told us about the 300.000 shillings

 8     that was what he got but that translates into German marks as 400.000

 9     marks or even more, that's why I didn't give a specific figure, 300.000,

10     or anything at all.  I don't know what it means in today's currency.

11     Could have been less or could have been more.  I was just thinking it had

12     to be a lot of money.  If I got what I got and there were 20 or 30 of us

13     who were there helping him with the election.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm raising this matter, I'm also addressing

15     the parties because the exchange rate at the time doesn't make a shilling

16     more worth than a Deutschemark.  It was approximately as was more or less

17     also discussed in the previous testimony, it's 1 up to 7 approximately,

18     that means 7 shillings in 1 Deutschemark, that was approximately the

19     rather constant exchange rate for this money, so it's still a bit of a

20     puzzle to me where the mistake actually is made.

21             I try to clarify it because that would have been sense if that

22     was the remainder of the money because then everyone out of 30 men would

23     have received 10.000 and 10.000 Austrian shillings would equal

24     approximately 1.500 Deutschemarks.  So I was just seeking whether that

25     could explain the matter, but apparently it does not.  We'll have a break

Page 7207

 1     and we will resume with all the protective measures in place at 4.00 in

 2     Courtroom III.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, sorry, may I request that we have the

 4     full 30 minutes.  Mr. Stanisic, I think, is flagging somewhat with the

 5     heat and with some medicine he took today.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then start at seven minutes past 4.00.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  I'm grateful.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind the parties

12     that since we are now in open session, although with protective measures

13     of face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym, that if there's any

14     subject which might identify the witness, that you should ask for private

15     session.

16             Mr. Groome, are you ready to proceed?

17             MR. GROOME:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   JF-039, we now have voice distortion working in this courtroom,

19     so I would just remind you to be sure that you do not speak until you see

20     the red light on the microphone of the person asking you a question go

21     off.  If the red light is on, you should not speak.

22             Now, my first question for you is, the Chamber has read your

23     statement and the testimony so there are no need for lengthy

24     explanations, but there are a few questions which I think may assist the

25     Chamber.  And the first one is, can you give the Chamber some idea of how

Page 7208

 1     long it takes to drive by car between Knin and Belgrade?

 2        A.   Well, usually it's six to seven hours of driving depending on how

 3     busy the roads are, and later on that depended on whether the corridor

 4     through Bosnia was open or closed.

 5        Q.   Now, at paragraph 43 of your statement, now P978, it states:

 6             "Frenki established an officer structure for those who were in

 7     training.  Some of those who were inspectors in the police became

 8     captains, then captains 1st class, and then major.  They were made

 9     commanders of the various PJM units and went back to the towns they had

10     originally come from."

11             My question to you is the following:  Whether you know whether

12     the officer structure Frenki created was modelled along the lines of a

13     police officer structure or along the lines of a military structure?

14        A.   The officer corps structure that Frenki set up was modelled along

15     the military structure because as far as I know in the police there used

16     to be titles such as inspector, and then perhaps inspector 1st class, and

17     others, but the military ranks are lieutenant, lieutenant 1st class, and

18     then captain, captain 1st class, and so on, so that these were modelled

19     along the lines of a military structure.

20             After captain 1st class, there would a major and then

21     lieutenant-colonel, colonel, and so on and so forth, so these are

22     military ranks.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. GROOME:  Now, can I ask that 65 ter 718 be brought to the

25     screens before us.  It is an order issued on 16 June 1991.

Page 7209

 1        Q.   Now, while that's being called up before us, in paragraph 49 of

 2     your statement you describe a time when Frenki and Captain Dragan were

 3     moved by Stanisic to Golubic.  Captain Dragan's command centre being

 4     moved to the fortress in Knin.  Do you know when this was?  Before you

 5     look at the document, from your own memory, are you able to tell us

 6     approximately when the command centre was moved from Golubic to the

 7     fortress in Knin?

 8        A.   The transformation began sometime in late May, or rather in June

 9     or July.

10             MR. GROOME:  I'm not sure if I'm the only person whose e-court is

11     not functioning, but I don't see the document on the screen.  That's 65

12     ter 718.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There it is.

14        Q.   Can I ask you to look at the screen before you and tell us

15     whether you recognise this document and do you know what it is referring

16     to?

17        A.   Well, I've never seen this document before but I know what it is

18     about.  This was the date when the Territorial Defence of the then

19     Yugoslav People's Army still was taking people in for training, and then

20     in late July they took over Golubic, and this happened at the same time

21     when the Main Staff and Frenki and Captain Dragan moved to the Knin

22     fortress, while a number of men were transferred to Udbina and to

23     Tito Korenica.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would

25     tender this Exhibit from the bar table.  I am able to provide information

Page 7210

 1     about its provenance should there be an objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

 3             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Simatovic Defence

 4     objects to this document being admitted into evidence either via this

 5     witness or from the bar table for two reasons.  First of all, it's

 6     obvious that this document was typed on two different type writers.  In

 7     our view the heading was typed on one typewriter, whereas the order and

 8     the text below the word "order" was typed on a different typewriter.

 9     That's number one.  And number two, our client claims that this is not

10     his signature.  This is a fake signature.  He's never signed anything

11     with these initials.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, you offered more or less a further

13     explanation.

14             MR. GROOME:  The document was provided to the OTP by

15     Stjepan Mesic, the president of Croatia on the 1st of November, 2002.  We

16     have no information with respect to where he obtained the document.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will further consider the challenge to

19     the authenticity and for that reason we'll mark the document for

20     identification for the time being.  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P979 marked for

22     identification, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P979 will have that status for the time being.

24     Mr. Groome, you'll understand that a bit more information, I take it that

25     the president of Croatia is not having the custody of overall documents

Page 7211

 1     from the area, so it might be interesting to know where he got it from

 2     and how he obtained it, and that may assist the Chamber in deciding on

 3     admissibility of this document.

 4             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution will seek that information, Your

 5     Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. GROOME:

 8        Q.   Now, JF-039, without tell us here in public session how, can you

 9     simply answer the question are you familiar with Milan Martic's

10     handwriting?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would ask that we go into private

13     session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7212











11 Page 7212 redacted. Private session.















Page 7213

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that 65 ter 4739, it's a document dated

 9     7th of October, 1994, addressed to among others Slobodan Milosevic --

10     sorry.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             MR. GROOME:  I apologise.  I would ask that 65 ter 4739 be called

14     to our screens.  It is a document dated the 7th of October, 1994,

15     addressed to among others, Slobodan Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic.  I

16     would ask that we show the witness the first page and then go to the last

17     page where there is a signature of someone.

18        Q.   My question to you is going to be related to whether you

19     recognise the signature, so it's not critical that you examine or read

20     the entire document, but I do want you to see the date of the document

21     and its letterhead.

22             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that we go to the last page.

23        Q.   We can now see the original on the left-hand side of our screens.

24     Do you recognise the signature on this document?

25        A.   Yes, that is certainly Mr. Martic's signature.

Page 7214

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would

 2     tender 4739.  In discussions with the Defence before court, Mr. Jordash

 3     indicated that he would not be objecting and Mr. Bakrac was still

 4     contemplating, so I do not know what his position is at this moment.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

 6             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise to

 7     Mr. Groome, I just wanted to consult my client, but I can now say that we

 8     have no objection, and I apologise to Mr. Groome for not advising him in

 9     time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P987, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P987 is admitted into evidence.  For those who may

13     be surprised by the numbering, I add to it that for the seven associated

14     exhibits all to be admitted under seal as we found them on our list, and

15     I just list the 65 ter numbers, which is 2803 up to and including 2808

16     and 65 ter 5764, although not exactly in this sequence, they were

17     admitted before the break, but they needed numbers to be assigned to

18     them.  The numbers are P980 up to and including P986.  You can consult in

19     e-court which number relates to what 65 ter number.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. GROOME:  Could I now ask that we have 65 ter 5765.  Your

22     Honours, this is a composite exhibit comprised of six greeting cards and

23     formally identified with 65 ter numbers 4740 through 4745.

24        Q.   While that's being called to our screens, did you have an

25     opportunity yesterday to look at copies of greeting cards for the

Page 7215

 1     Christmas New/Year season for New Year 1995?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can I ask you to look at the first one of these on the screen and

 4     do you recognise the signature at the bottom of that card?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Whose signature do you recognise it to be?

 7        A.   Milan Martic's signature.

 8        Q.   And who is this card addressed to?

 9        A.   To Mr. Radovan Karadzic at Pale.

10             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that we turn to page 2 in both the English

11     and the B/C/S.

12        Q.   And again I ask you, do you recognise the signature at the bottom

13     of this greeting card?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to wait to be on the screen before we ...

15     Next page on the ...

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I'm informed that the uploaded 65 ter

18     number is only one page.

19             MR. GROOME:  I'll move on, Your Honour.  Hopefully we'll correct

20     that before the end of our examination.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would note that in discussions with

23     both Defence counsel, neither Defence counsel objects to the admission of

24     the six greeting cards, so perhaps -- well, I recognise that I do have to

25     get that exhibit together before the Chamber can admit anything.

Page 7216

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We cannot admit any material, but you could

 2     save questions like to whom it is addressed, because the Chamber being

 3     able to read is not surprised by the answer that it was addressed to

 4     Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 4278, a document with the

 6     reference number 112249890 dated the 30th of May, 1990, I ask that that

 7     be called to the screen.

 8        Q.   And while that is being done, JF-039, do you know a person by the

 9     name of Milan Tepavcevic?

10        A.   I think it's Milan Davcevic, or rather, I think it's Milan

11     Tepavcevic.  And if that is the name, he was one of the bosses in the

12     state security of Serbia whom we sometimes addressed with issues like

13     repairs, car repairs and fuel, vehicle fuel and so on.

14        Q.   The document is now on the screen before us.  Is this the person

15     you are now giving evidence about?

16        A.   I think so.  Yes, it is Milan Tepavcevic.  Well, I really know

17     him as Tepo because usually that's how we would call him.  Usually when I

18     was sent to see him, I would be told to go see Tepo.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

20     this exhibit from the bar table.  I note that there is no objection from

21     either the Stanisic or Simatovic Defence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P988, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P988 is admitted into evidence.  No need to have it

25     admitted under seal?

Page 7217

 1             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time I would ask that a

 4     portion of a video identified as 65 ter 1933 be played for the witness.

 5     The clip which I will refer to as 1933.1 is from 3 hours 12 minutes 50

 6     seconds to 3 hours 16 minutes 1 second of the original full exhibit.  For

 7     our colleagues in the interpretation booths, a transcript of this is

 8     before you marked as clip 1.

 9        Q.   JF-039, I would ask you to look at this video on the screen and I

10     will ask you some questions afterward.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Can be played publicly, Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "...  for the freedom of the

15     fatherland fighting against the enemy on the Miljevac plateau,

16     Deputy Minister Nebojsa Pavkovic laid a wreath at the monument to the

17     Serbian hero before the Ministry of the Interior.  Addressing members of

18     the Special Police Brigade, President Martic said:

19             "'No one has the right to stop halfway and wonder whether things

20     could be different, whether there's a chance of living together with

21     those who do evil to us.  That clearly is not possible.  The Ustashas

22     have clearly shown in western Slavonia how much they care about the

23     Serbian people.  All they want is Serbian ethnic territory.

24     Ante Starcevic's plan to kill one-third of the Serbians, assimilate

25     another third, and drive out the last third has never been given up on,

Page 7218

 1     and it applies to all parties whether they call themselves left or right

 2     wing.  And for this reason we know one thing only, we are impatient, no

 3     peaceful alternative is before us.  We have no peaceful alternative.  We

 4     face slavery and uncertainty for our lives, or a struggle for freedom.

 5     And concerning that choice, I've made a clear choice, we must go to the

 6     end and that is the struggle for freedom.

 7             "'I'm convinced of one thing, that the Croats are a nemesis and

 8     the Muslims have never in history been better warriors than us Serbs.

 9     We've had our legendary heros throughout history from Obilic to

10     Medakovic, Rasula, Kotoras, Markos, and others of today to name just a

11     few.  These are all your fellow warriors.  We have our heros.  The Croats

12     have never had that and the Muslims least of all.  I am therefore

13     convinced that we have the strength and therefore we must have the

14     strength successfully to complete our struggle, our honourable struggle

15     for freedom, our struggle for the survival of our children in these

16     parts, and we must show that these evil doers that these areas which are

17     ethnically Serbian will remain some.

18             "'I'm convinced seeing you all here today, I know almost all of

19     you, and many, most of you, are the same ones who have set off here from

20     Golubic on the 17th of August, 1990, that you will not forget the oath

21     you swore then:  We shall fight, never again in Croatia.  We have to

22     think of one thing only and that is to defends ourselves, to be

23     militarily strong and capable.'

24             "Repeating the position that the Republic of Serbian Krajina will

25     never be part of Croatia, President Martic especially stressed his

Page 7219

 1     conviction that the Serbian people has the strength to bring their

 2     honourable struggle for survival to a successful conclusion and show the

 3     evil doers that the Republic of Serbian Krajina was and will remain

 4     ethnically Serbian.  'You have not let me down so far and I believe that

 5     you won't,' the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

 6     Milan Martic, told members of the Special Police Brigade.  The commander

 7     of the Serbian army of the Krajina, General Mile Mrksic, also addressed

 8     members of the Special Police brigade and wished them success in future

 9     work."

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, so the record is clear ...  Your

11     Honours, so the record is clear, the words up until "strong and capable"

12     were spoken by Mr. Martic, and the words beginning "repeating the

13     position" were spoken by the reporter, that's not at this moment

14     reflected in the transcript.

15        Q.   Now, JF-039, can I ask you, did you recognise where this video

16     was taken?

17        A.   Yes, in Golubic, at the training centre.  The youth settlement in

18     Golubic, the same place.

19        Q.   There is what appears to be a memorial to someone at the camp.

20     Mr. Laugel is showing a still image from the 11th second of the tape.

21     When you see it, are you familiar with this memorial?  Sorry we don't

22     have that still.  Do you recall at the beginning of the tape there seemed

23     to be some monument that people were paying homage to.  Are you familiar

24     with that monument, and if you are, can you describe what it is?

25        A.   It's a bust erected in honour of Sasa Medakovic, also known as

Page 7220

 1     Sale the man who was killed at Miljevci, during the Miljevci operation

 2     south of Drnis.

 3        Q.   And do you know who is the person that is laying something at the

 4     foot of that monument?

 5        A.   The person in blue is the assistant minister of the interior,

 6     Nebojsa Pavkovic.

 7        Q.   At the 26th second of this tape we see some Cyrillic writing on

 8     the wall behind Mr. Martic.  Mr. Laugel is now going to display a still

 9     of that frame of the tape.  Okay.  We can now see it on our screen.  The

10     writing behind the men that we see on the screen now, again this is the

11     26th second, what is the significance of that writing?

12        A.   As far as I know, the 5th of July, the day that the Knin

13     policemen signed a petition to the effect they would not serve the state

14     of Croatia and its flag.  Later on it was celebrated as the security day

15     or the police day.

16        Q.   The three men that we see standing behind Mr. Milan Martic.  Do

17     you know who they are, and if do you, can you tell us their names moving

18     from the person on our left and then moving to the right?

19        A.   First person to the left is the assistant minister of the

20     interior, Nebojsa Pavkovic.  In the middle, the then commander

21     Milan Mrksic.  At the far right, the third person there, I think he was a

22     lieutenant-colonel, the man's name is Stupar.  He then took an exam to

23     obtain a higher rank, as far as I know, subsequently at the military

24     training-ground in Slunj.

25             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders 65

Page 7221

 1     ter 1933.1 as a public exhibit.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P989, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honours, the problem we have with this

 6     is unless I've missed a proofing note, I'm not aware that I have, we were

 7     not put on notice that this evidence was going to be led in this way, so

 8     I don't know how I'm expected to take instructions on this between now

 9     and tomorrow morning when we or between now and cross-examination.  The

10     last -- well, the last ten minutes of evidence have all been somewhat a

11     surprise.  We knew the Prosecution was going to use the video, but

12     clearly the Prosecution were aware of what questions they wanted to ask

13     the witness and what the witness could say about the video.  We were not.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has given notice that

16     we would use this video for some time.  I'm not aware of any requirement

17     that everything that a witness is going to say, and he is just

18     identifying some people, he is reading some Cyrillic off a wall, I'm not

19     sure that I see anything that requires advanced notice.  There were some

20     topics that the new information the witness did provide and that was

21     provided in a proofing note as soon as the Prosecution had it, but I have

22     difficulty understanding what about this evidence is unfair to lead it.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I've got no idea whether what

24     the witness has said is correct or not and no way of checking that before

25     I stand up and cross-examine in about 15 minute's time.

Page 7222

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if the Prosecution announces that it

 3     will play a video, of course what one would expect the questions to the

 4     witness to be is primarily what first of all what you see on the video.

 5     Well, I would say 90 per cent of the questions were about what you see on

 6     the video, who is this, who is that, where is it, these kind of

 7     questions.  If you need more time to consult with Mr. Stanisic to verify,

 8     and it seems all to be relatively simple whether this is a monument,

 9     whether this is Golubic, whether this person is, but if you need more

10     time, then first of all, I'm perhaps a bit surprised, but then just ask

11     for more time and explain what exactly it is that you need to further

12     explore before you can cross-examine the witness.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, my transcript has gone by, I don't know

15     whether the Chamber has admitted the exhibit at this stage.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We have not as a matter of fact because after I

17     invited Madam Registrar to assign a number, I saw Mr. Jordash on his feet

18     and therefore Mr. Jordash your objection was not primarily against

19     admissibility but rather on insufficient notice to prepare for

20     cross-examination.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then P989 is admitted into evidence.  Please

23     proceed.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time I would ask P12 in

25     evidence to be played for the witness.  A transcript of this is in the

Page 7223

 1     interpretation booths and marked as clip number 2.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "...  in Krajina celebrating the day

 4     of security.  On this day, three years ago, the first large gathering of

 5     people and mass protests against the Croatian leadership took place in

 6     Knin.  The result of those events was a petition signed by the policemen

 7     of the then Knin public security station refusing to obey the pro-Ustasha

 8     authorities in Zagreb and refusing to wear the markings worn by the

 9     Ustashas 50 years ago while committing genocide against the Serbian

10     people.  The central celebration took place in Knin.

11             "Milan Martic, minister of the interior, spoke at the formal

12     events stressing at the end of his speech that the checkerboard flag can

13     be in Knin only over our dead bodies.  Among other speakers addressing

14     the gathering were Goran Hadzic, president of the Republic of Serbian

15     Krajina, and Milan Babic, president of the Knin Municipal Assembly.

16             "'On the occasion of the day of security of the Republic of

17     Serbian Krajina, there were issued the Serbian rebellions and uprisings

18     decorations, medals for courage and certificates of gratitude issued,

19     among others, to the Belgrade radio and television and the Vecenje

20     novosti daily."

21             MR. GROOME:

22        Q.   JF-039, did you recognise some of the people that were depicted

23     in that video?  And it's not necessary that you mention the names at this

24     stage, but just let us know that you recognise some of the people?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7224

 1             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that 65 ter 5766 be called to our

 2     screens.  It is an exhibit comprised of four stills from P12 annotated to

 3     assist the witness in identifying different participants in these

 4     proceedings.  I would ask that the first page be called up on to our

 5     screens.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number one is the former prime

 7     minister, Jaco Bijelic, number to two is Milan Martic, number three is

 8     Milan Babic, number four is Milan --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can't hear the witness.

10             MR. GROOME:  If I could ask you just to sit in your chair, it

11     seems we are having a technical problem at the moment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there are some screens, I see a few of them

13     around, with clear numbers and still on it, but others have not yet.  Let

14     me see whether -- yes.  I think meanwhile everyone has the picture in

15     front of him or her.

16             Mr. Jordash.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, we do now, thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could you please repeat the question and could

19     we ask the witness to identify the persons by their numbers.

20             MR. GROOME:

21        Q.   JF-039, can I ask you if you need to move around to see the

22     monitor, then do that.  But then return to your position in front of the

23     mike when you identify who each of the people that you recognise and if

24     you refer to them by the number that have been superimposed on their

25     image?

Page 7225

 1        A.   Number 1, Djogo Bjegovic, former prime minister, Milan Martic,

 2     Babic.

 3        Q.   I'm sorry.  Maybe if we do it this way, do you recognise the

 4     person with number 2 and if you do, tell us his name?

 5        A.   Yes, Milan Martic.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise the person with 3 on their image?

 7        A.   Yes, Milan Babic.

 8        Q.   How about number 4?

 9        A.   Jovica Stanisic.

10        Q.   How about number 5?

11        A.   Milan Novakovic.

12        Q.   And how about number 6?

13        A.   Rade Kostic.

14             MR. GROOME:  Now, this was the first page of 65 ter 5766 and it

15     is from the 20th second of video-clip P12.  I'm going ask that we go to

16     page 2 of 5766.  It is the 25th second of P12.

17        Q.   Again, can you look at the image, and then I will ask you to

18     identify any people that you may recognise.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, is there any dispute about the identity

20     of the persons you are showing on the screen among the parties?  I really

21     have difficulties in even thinking about that one would not agree on

22     Mr. Martic or -- I mean, we are asking the witness to identify persons,

23     that makes sense if there's any dispute about who they are, otherwise you

24     just agree on that and put it to the Chamber.

25             MR. GROOME:  Well, without saying too much in front of the

Page 7226

 1     witness, Your Honour, I think the credibility of the witness will be

 2     attacked, and I think -- to the extent -- I mean, clearly the well known

 3     people that are in this picture are not very helpful, but there are a

 4     couple of people --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If there's any -- I was a bit surprised by

 6     the first series, but we have now four others before us on this still.

 7     Yes.

 8             MR. GROOME:

 9        Q.   Do you recognise any of the people here, and if you could tell us

10     which people by saying the number that's imposed on their image and then

11     tell us their name and their position?

12        A.   Number 1 then Colonel Borislav Djukic.  Number 2, assistant

13     minister of the interior for finances, Nikola Rastovic.  Number 3,

14     Serbian priest from Strmica, I don't know his name.  Number 4, Priest

15     Branko Milinkovic from Golubic.

16             MR. GROOME:  Can we now look at page 3 of this exhibit.  This is

17     a still from the 50th second of P12.

18        Q.   This particular image has four numbers on it.  Can I ask you if

19     you recognise anyone to state the number and the person you recognise?

20        A.   Number 1, Dr. Milan Babic, number 2, Jovica Stanisic, number 3,

21     Goran Hadzic, and I can't see number 4 clearly.

22             MR. GROOME:  And finally page 4, it is the 55th second of P12.

23        Q.   Do you recognise these people?

24        A.   Number 1, Stojan Zupljanin, number 2 I can't see the face.  It's

25     blurry.  I can't see the features.

Page 7227

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 2     5766 as a public exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P990, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P990 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. GROOME:

 7        Q.   JF-039, I have one more video I would like you to view.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, the Prosecution asks that a 4-minute

 9     portion of a video identified as 65 ter 4527.1 be played for the witness.

10     It is 52 minutes and 30 seconds to 56 seconds and 6 seconds of the entire

11     Exhibit.  A copy of the transcript is in the booths noted as clip 3.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you misspoke when you said 56 seconds.  56

13     minutes you meant.

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Department for special purposes of

18     the Knin SUP is not some illegal formation, and they are particularly

19     angry when Croatian and some other information media call them Chetniks.

20     Their founder has agreed to talk about the units.  Their intentions and

21     up to date operations which are like the one that is going to happen,

22     called Operation Wasp.  It is interesting that he will hide nothing from

23     journalists but his identity.  As far as the journalists and members of

24     the units are concerned, he is just Captain Dragan.  Other unit

25     commanders will also be referred to under pseudonyms.

Page 7228

 1             "Captain Dragan:  'Well Operation Wasp will last until the last

 2     Croatian soldier or member of MUP or whatever they are called is present

 3     in the territory of the SAO Krajina.  Our task is to clean SAO Krajina of

 4     those forces and we are doing a great job there.  We are a special unit

 5     under the SAO Krajina milicija command.  Some people call us the Serbian

 6     army, but it's what ordinary people call us.  Believe me, we are not

 7     Serbian army.  We have our army and it's the JNA.  And as long as the JNA

 8     exists, we will not be the army.'

 9             "Journalist:  'Information received from the SUP of Knin is that

10     the training is going on -- is that training is going on at 15 locations

11     and the number of members of Bosanska Krajina, milicija, in the training

12     camps is growing larger.  The most convenient training camp for the

13     cameras is the one located at the premises of Golubic settlement, which

14     is the place where all this began.

15             "'We attended an exercise of regularly uniformed young men, girls

16     who are also here in large numbers were not at the training-ground this

17     afternoon.  We did not notice that any of these young men were unshaved

18     on that morning or looked like a Chetnik.  They are used to attacks by

19     Croatian leaders and media, but still it annoys them, this epithet

20     Chetniks, and every one of them will say it in front of journalists.'

21             "Captain Kalinic:  'They are people who are mostly farmers,

22     peasants, workers, or simply people who came here to defend their homes,

23     their houses, wives and children.  That's why it should be clear to

24     anyone that such morale born from such a defence must be huge so as are

25     the motives driving a man in such a short period of time to learn and

Page 7229

 1     fulfill such big matters, wishes, and ambitions.'

 2             "Captain Vuckovic:  'I arrived here in September last year after

 3     being a member of the intervention unit of Knin, which was the only

 4     special force existing in Krajina.  I was its member.  I can tell you

 5     that we had lots of problems.  We were poorly armed, poorly equipped and

 6     trained, which is opposite to what we are now.  So we had many problems

 7     with the people there coming to us saying they were attacked here and

 8     there and we were almost helpless.  But it is totally different now.'

 9             "Journalist:  'In August last year Krajina started its defence by

10     placing trees across roads and by hunter guns.  Hunting rifles.  Now the

11     core of its Defence is organised to resist the attack that is being

12     announced these days at every press conference in Zagreb and in every

13     statement by Croatian leaders.  Relations between the defenders have been

14     defined with a clear subordination, on top of which is Captain Dragan, a

15     cadet of the world's most popular schools and participants of many

16     contemporary wars.'"

17             MR. GROOME:

18        Q.   Do you recognise the location that we see at the beginning of

19     this videotape?

20        A.   Yes, that is Golubic.

21             MR. GROOME:  Going to ask for Mr. Laugel to display the 22nd -- a

22     still from the 22nd second of this clip.

23        Q.   The people on the left and right of Captain Dragan identify

24     themselves.  My question to you is simply, did you personally know both

25     of these men?

Page 7230

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 3     video-clip 4527.1 into evidence as a public exhibit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P991, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P991 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution calls to

 8     the screen 65 ter 482.  It's a document dated the 8th of November, 1991,

 9     and signed by Captain Dragan.  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this

10     exhibit from the bar and it is a one-page document signed by

11     Captain Dragan where he is seeking to define his status.

12             The Stanisic Defence informs me that there will be no objection

13     and Mr. Bakrac wanted to discuss it with Mr. Simatovic.  I do have

14     information about its provenance should there be an objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, objections or not?

16             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do have an

17     objection.  There is a portion of this document with Captain Dragan, a

18     typewritten there name, but there is no apparent signature, or at least

19     its entirely illegible, therefore if Mr. Groome could please provide a

20     provenance for this document, we would be more than grateful.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, I don't have it yet on my screen, but

22     that's not true for all the screens in this courtroom.  Yes, I have it by

23     now, could you further explain the provenance of this document.

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the document was given to a member of

25     OTP staff on the 28th of March, 2003.  The witness is a protected

Page 7231

 1     witness, a C-28 in another proceeding.  If we go into private session and

 2     the Chamber directs me to, I can provide the name of the person and the

 3     circumstances under which they obtained it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see whether Mr. Bakrac after this first part

 5     of the explanation still has objections.  If so, then we'll move into

 6     private session.  Still objecting?

 7             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are still

 8     objecting.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7232

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  No number has yet been

25     assigned.  The number would be, Madam Registrar?

Page 7233

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  482 becomes Exhibit P992, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P992 is admitted into evidence.  You may proceed.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just so the record is clear, there's no

 4     need for that to be under seal.

 5             Your Honour, I have no further questions of the witness, but

 6     before I conclude my direct examination, the Prosecution tenders from the

 7     bar two contemporaneous media reports by the Tanjug news agency in

 8     Belgrade as public exhibits.  The first is 65 ter 1920, a report dated

 9     3rd April, 1991.  Its relevance is in the fact that Milan Martic publicly

10     expresses his conviction that Slobodan Milosevic will arm the Serbs in

11     the Krajina.

12             The second is 65 ter 1922.  It is a report dated the 26th of

13     July, 1991, and reports that combat in the Krajina -- there is combat in

14     the Krajina in which civilians of both Serb and Croat ethnicity have been

15     the target of attacks.  There are no objections from either the Stanisic

16     or Simatovic Defence.  So the Prosecution tenders both of those exhibits.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 65 ter 1920 would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P993, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  The next one is 65

20     ter 1922, that would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P994, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P994 is also admitted into evidence.  Mr. Groome, I

23     was informed that what you announced to be a four-page document,

24     65 ter 5765, is now uploaded on to e-court.  We saw the good wishes to

25     Mr. Karadzic.  Do you want to further address the other pages?

Page 7234

 1             MR. GROOME:  I would ask that the second page of that document be

 2     shown to the witness.

 3        Q.   Who is the second greeting card addressed to?

 4        A.   To Jovica Stanisic.  The chief of state security of Serbia.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders 65

 6     ter 5765 as a public exhibit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it now a two-page document or a four-page

 8     document?

 9             MR. GROOME:  Mr. Laugel informs me that it's a -- that he can

10     verify that it's a four-page document.  I'm not sure if this --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Four pages of which we've seen two, the other two

12     are similar.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And you leave it to the Chamber to read to whom they

15     are addressed which we are certainly able to do, if it's similar.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar counted six pages.  Apparently to

18     include what used to be 65 ter 4740 up to and including 4754.

19             MR. GROOME:  I misspoke, Your Honour, it is indeed six pages.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Are they all similar?

21             MR. GROOME:  They are all the same, Your Honour, and the other

22     addressees that have not been mentioned are Lilic, Milosevic, Bulatovic,

23     and Mr. Krajisnik.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No objections?  Then the new 65 ter

25     5765, six cards or six letters wishing the best for 1995 receive number?

Page 7235

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P995, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P995 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. GROOME:  No further questions at this time, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

 5             Then I suggest that we take the break now and, will it be you,

 6     Mr. Jordash, who will be the first to cross-examine the witness?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-039, we'll have a break and we resume

 9     at -- would 25 minutes do or would you insist on the?  25 will do, I see

10     at least nodding, Mr. Stanisic, yes.  We'll resume at a quarter to 6.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness JF-039, you'll now be cross-examined by

14     Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

15             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  I still didn't get a translation of

19     anything.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters could not hear the witness.

21             MR. JORDASH:  That's my fault, sorry.

22        Q.   Could you repeat what you just said, the translator didn't pick

23     up your voice?

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   Now, I want to take you straight to Golubic.  You, is this right,

Page 7236

 1     worked at Golubic, helping to get it ready for the first --

 2             MR. GROOME:  I appreciate Mr. Jordash's caution.  I don't think

 3     that we've crossed -- anything more specific than that I think might

 4     cause a problem and should be in private session.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps we should go into private session, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7237











11 Pages 7237-7238 redacted. Private session.















Page 7239

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   Let me repeat the question.  How many men first appeared and

15     began training in May of 1991?

16        A.   Well, there wasn't an exact figure.  I can't really tell you any

17     exact figure because the number varied from one day to the next.  Some

18     people would just give up, some people stole things and then disappeared.

19     Some left two or three days after they had first come, so there could be

20     10 to 20 men, fewer or more men between one day and the next, so the

21     training did not begin on any particular date and that's not how it

22     worked.  There were times when there were no men, that no one reported to

23     go through training.  I mean, this is difficult to describe, but it would

24     depend on the situation on the ground.

25        Q.   Well, let's try and break this down.  How many instructors were

Page 7240

 1     there in May to take charge of the first recruits?

 2        A.   I think it would be fair to say that there were between four to

 3     seven instructors.

 4        Q.   Were the recruits in May trained in one group or several groups?

 5        A.   There were several groups.

 6        Q.   How many groups?

 7        A.   That depended on how many men there were.  For example, there was

 8     a platoon that numbered ten men.

 9        Q.   I want you, if you can, to cast your mind and picture what was

10     going on in Golubic in May.  Now, I understand, and the Court I think

11     understands, that the situation was somewhat fluctuating, but when the

12     training began, you must be able to give an approximate number of the men

13     who were there when that first important training began, no?

14        A.   Well, I cannot give you any specific figure, but I can give you

15     some examples.  For example, Lieutenant Calic had a platoon of ten men.

16        Q.   Well, can you give --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could we -- could you tell us, try to

18     focus on what Mr. Jordash asked you.  Were there -- when the first

19     training started were there 30 men, were there 60 men, were there 100 men

20     approximately?  I'm not asking you to say it was 58 or 62, but was there

21     approximately 30 or approximately 150, or could you give us any

22     impression about how many people were there when the training really

23     started in May.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On average a platoon should number

25     between 20 and 30 men which would mean that in a total there should be

Page 7241

 1     around 150 men.

 2             MR. JORDASH:

 3        Q.   And that first bunch of recruits, give or take those who left and

 4     joined in May, were trained for how long?

 5        A.   I think that the first bunch stayed there for three weeks.

 6        Q.   And so after that first three weeks there was a set of new

 7     recruits for a new round of training; correct?

 8        A.   Well, not quite because some of the men who were in the first

 9     group stayed on as instructors, whereas some remained in the units

10     themselves.

11        Q.   How many men stayed on as instructors?

12        A.   I think it would be fair to say that around ten.

13        Q.   And the remainder returned to their police units from where they

14     had originated?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And apart from the ten then who remained, there was a whole set

17     of new recruits arrived at the -- to begin a new set of training; is that

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How many approximately?

21        A.   Around 100 to 150 actually signed up.

22        Q.   Did they go through a three-week training course as per the first

23     group?

24        A.   At the time when the second group arrived, I believe the regular

25     Territorial Defence members began to join up.

Page 7242

 1        Q.   And what happened as a consequence of that, if anything?

 2        A.   Well, as a consequence of that in late May there was a major

 3     altercation between Frenki who wanted to command all those men and the

 4     TO, which is why the staff was moved to the fortress.

 5        Q.   To avoid Frenki being able to command those men who were regular

 6     TO members; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  Well, no, not just that.  There was a conflict between

 8     those officers who were appointed by Captain Dragan or Frenki.

 9        Q.   Which officers who were appointed by Captain Dragan had a

10     conflict and who did they have a conflict with?

11        A.   The officers were, as far as I can recall, Srecko Kalinic from

12     Obrovac, Mile Cvijanovic from the Knin SUP.  The first was -- he began as

13     the 2nd lieutenant and then he was promoted lieutenant.

14     Dragan Karan [as interpreted] was appointed captain and then a month or

15     so later he was promoted to major.  Now, the people they were in conflict

16     with were some of the command structures from the TO who could not

17     support that.  One of them was the 2nd lieutenant, the TO commander --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

19             MR. JORDASH:

20        Q.   What was the 2nd lieutenant TO commander, the name, please, could

21     you repeat that?

22        A.   I think he was actually a lieutenant-colonel, Milan Dragisic.  He

23     was a legal TO commander under the old laws and regulations of the

24     Yugoslav People's Army, before August of 1990 in other words.

25        Q.   Did you say just Dragan Karan or --

Page 7243

 1        A.   Karna, K-a-r-n-a.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  So we'll come back to this detail shortly, but is the

 3     summary of what you've just said, is that the TO -- members of the

 4     regular TO began to join Golubic after the first set of recruits and

 5     because Frenki wanted to command them, Martic moved to the fortress so

 6     that Frenki could not?

 7        A.   No, my apologies.  Martic did not move the TO.  The first person

 8     to be transferred or the first group that was transferred was the command

 9     headed by Frenki.  So Captain Dragan and Frenki were transferred and then

10     later on they were -- they joined under the command of the TO commander,

11     Milan Dragisic.

12        Q.   Let's just go back because I'm confused.  I'm sure it's me but

13     let's go back.  TO -- regular TO members came to Golubic to be trained.

14     Were they trained at Golubic, yes or no?

15        A.   Maybe some of them were, I don't know.  Because the TO members

16     were on average elder men, the reserve corps, the reserve forces of the

17     TO were for the most part older men over 40 years of age, but that was

18     not as a rule.  I mean, some of them could be younger, but most of them

19     were older men.

20        Q.   I think maybe some of them or I don't know would have sufficed

21     for that answer.  Could we try to keep the answers short, please.

22             Who was trained after the first recruits?  After the third week

23     who was trained at Golubic, if anyone?

24        A.   My apologies, I didn't say I don't know.  I said I don't know,

25     maybe some of them were younger than 40 years of age, but I don't know

Page 7244

 1     about that.  So I was referring to the age of these people because the TO

 2     for the most part consisted of older people, older men.

 3        Q.   Let me just try again with the question.  Do you know who was

 4     trained at Golubic after the first group left after the first three

 5     weeks?  Please answer yes or no.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  A who question is difficult to answer by yes or no.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you ask who was there, then to say yes or no

 9     couldn't really give an answer.

10             MR. JORDASH:  I said do you know who was trained at Golubic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  Yes, then I see that.  I was commenting

12     too quickly.  Witness, could you answer the question, do you know who

13     were trained after that first group?  After the first three weeks, the

14     next group that arrived.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies, but I'm

16     confused by the word "who."  Do you mean should I give names?  I really

17     don't understand the question.  To me "who" seems like you are asking me

18     about the names of the people who went through training.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I thought that Mr. Jordash would like to know

20     whether these were regular TO members or how would you qualify them?

21     Second group.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The first group were mainly

23     volunteers, people who wanted to go through training, that was their

24     choice and they joined.  In the second group there were some volunteers.

25     But there was not a sufficient number to fill up all the positions, but

Page 7245

 1     at that time there was open co-operation between the army and the TO of

 2     Krajina, or rather, the Knin TO at the time ordered that TO men - and

 3     most of these were people who belonged to the logistics unit and

 4     technical units, they ordered them to go to Golubic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I now try to see what your answer is.  Your

 6     answer was the second group consisted of a small number of volunteers,

 7     but mainly were regular TO members.  Is that your answer?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Essentially yes.  I think over 50

 9     per cent were volunteers.  The TO had maybe 200 or 300 men which

10     constituted a huge majority later on.  It's difficult to be specific

11     about the time-period because this all took perhaps a month, month and a

12     half, up to two months.  It was one man to begin with and then suddenly

13     it was 300 or 400 men.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to fully understand, it started with mainly

15     volunteers and then in the next group a large number of TO members joined

16     and that the composition changed after that again?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I tried to assist.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, thank you.

20        Q.   Did the second training take three weeks?

21        A.   I think between two and three weeks.

22        Q.   And just so I'm clear, how many men completed that training, the

23     second training, approximately?

24        A.   [In English] Maybe a hundred, maybe less, a couple hundred.

25        Q.   Was there a third round of training after they had -- the 100

Page 7246

 1     completed?

 2        A.   [Interpretation] I really don't know how to answer this question.

 3     I didn't keep any records as to how many rounds of training there were

 4     and how many people circulated inside and outside.  Anyway, the overall

 5     time-frame was about two months.

 6        Q.   And then the training at Golubic stopped?

 7        A.   Yes.  Sometime in July the TO took over Golubic.

 8        Q.   And that training had nothing do with Frenki?

 9        A.   More or less no.

10        Q.   What does that mean?

11        A.   It didn't have anything to do with him.

12        Q.   So would you estimate the number of men trained at Golubic

13     between May and July as around 200 or 300?

14        A.   I think between 200 and 250 would be a fair figure.

15        Q.   And apart from that ten who -- let me start that again.

16             We know that ten stayed after the first training to be

17     instructors.  What happened to the remaining men after the first round of

18     training?

19        A.   Between 20 and 30 men were stationed at the Knin fortress and

20     there was a staff there.  About 15 to 20 men were transferred to Udbina,

21     the distance being about 100 and 120 kilometres to the north of Knin.

22     About 20 people were taken to Tito Korenica where a new centre, training

23     centre was set up.  Between 10 and 15 men were transferred to Benkovac,

24     men who belonged to the Benkovac police station.  Some men were sent back

25     to Obrovac, so and on so forth.  Nevertheless, the great majority of

Page 7247

 1     those who were from somewhere around there went back to their original

 2     units.

 3        Q.   So just taking the 20 to 30 men at the Knin fortress, the 15 to

 4     20 men transferred to Udbina, and the 20 men taken to Korenica, and the

 5     10 to 15 transferred to Benkovac, the remainder returned to their

 6     original police or TO unit; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's how it normally worked, depending on how many people

 8     came, where they came from, and then normally those people would go back.

 9        Q.   And the vast majority of those men, is this correct, were regular

10     TOs who returned to their TO units?

11        A.   TO members stayed on for quite a long time.  The war had begun by

12     now and they were permanently stationed at Golubic later on.  Those were

13     sporadic regular units who were under the JNA command all the time.

14        Q.   And of the 200 to 250, the majority were TO regulars; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, for the most part.  (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21        Q.   I'm going to try to press you, please forgive me, but, are you

22     able to put a figure, an approximate figure on the number of TO out of

23     the 200 to 250?

24        A.   200, if you put it that way, 200 perhaps.  Around 200 I would

25     say.

Page 7248

 1        Q.   Okay.  So around 50 were volunteers who came from the police, and

 2     apart from the numbers who remained, the ones you've told us about who

 3     remained at the Knin fortress or went to Korenica, et cetera, they

 4     returned to their original police units; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, the training at Golubic was -- was what?  Could you tell the

 7     Court just very briefly what kind of training the men received.  Perhaps

 8     I could be more specific.  Do you know if it was any different to what

 9     regular TO members would receive?

10        A.   Yes, it was quite different.  A different approach was taken to

11     formation movement and on how to use weapons that they had never used or

12     seen before, how they should climb over obstacles, how they should come

13     down walls that were perhaps 7 or 8 metres high.  They were taught to use

14     ropes, mountaineering kits, camouflaging.  More or less this was some

15     sort of special military doctoring such as that used by Special Forces.

16        Q.   I want to ask you about something that was said by you in your

17     previous testimony.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, P977 at page 2196.  Could we have

19     that on e-court, please.

20        Q.   Now, if you look at --

21             MR. JORDASH:  I think not to be shown to the public.

22        Q.   It says on page 2196, you are being asked a question by a judge

23     at line 11 concerning the training at Golubic.

24             "Witness, you testified that those police officers who had been

25     trained at Golubic were given assignments after their training.  You

Page 7249

 1     mentioned something about a sort of final test, and assignments, so to

 2     say, a final test.  Can you explain that?"

 3             And then you give an explanation.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  2196 we should have on the screen, I think.

 5        Q.   And the Judge then asks you -- well, I'll wait until you've got

 6     that on the screen.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please refer to the page.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  2196.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Page in e-court, please.

10             MR. JORDASH:  It's P977.

11        Q.   Let me shortcut this, if I can, since time is running.

12     Mr. Witness, the training that was given at Golubic was training as you

13     described of a military nature; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And it was training which was designed to fight in a combat but

16     there was no instruction concerning the commission of crime, that the

17     training was in order to assist crime; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.  I think it depends on an individual's will what they will

19     do.  The training was designed to raise their abilities.  The training

20     was not, as far as I know, designed for people to commit crimes.

21        Q.   And was the training designed to enable the TO and the police to

22     better conduct their ordinary tasks?

23        A.   That's why I said that.  That is the case, that I said the TO had

24     nothing to do literally with the Special Forces or volunteers who were

25     there to become members of the special force.  They were trained

Page 7250

 1     specifically to become members of the Special Forces, to work in smaller

 2     groups, to penetrate behind enemy lines, to operate from any position

 3     whatsoever and still be able to find their way around.  The TO were

 4     trained in the regular way, trained to defend from an attack.  And the

 5     difference between the two was huge.

 6        Q.   So you are saying that the 50 -- well, how many were trained then

 7     in this -- in the way you describe as to become members of the Special

 8     Forces?

 9        A.   I think about 150 would be a fair figure, the people who

10     succeeded in that.

11        Q.   But you told us a moment ago, tell me please if I am wrong, that

12     200 were TO members who fell under the command of the JNA leaving

13     approximately 50 who were police, members of the police or volunteers,

14     and now you say, well, actually, 150 were trained to be Special Forces.

15     Could you clarify that, please?

16        A.   It's difficult for me to clarify this because this is about

17     figures.  I said 150.  I meant the training -- those who came there with

18     the explicit intention of becoming members of the Special Forces, and

19     that's why at the outset I said the TO at the Golubic camp had nothing to

20     do and no place being in the same camp as those from the Special Forces,

21     apart from the attempts by Captain Dragan and Frenki, the two exercised

22     command over them.  That is why there was this conflict, a political one

23     and other types of conflicts arose too.

24        Q.   Okay.  You told us that the police who had been trained, apart

25     from a smaller percentage, returned to their ordinary units; is that

Page 7251

 1     correct?  And I am focusing now on the period between May and July.

 2        A.   I think that's a fair statement.  For example, I can give you an

 3     example, in Benkovac, there were 10 or 15 men who went back to Benkovac

 4     and they were all active-duty police officers before they ever came

 5     there.  They became special units and they no longer did normal policing

 6     afterwards.

 7        Q.   Well, are you talking about Goran Opacic and his two brothers who

 8     returned to Benkovac where Bosko Drazic was chief of police?

 9        A.   Yes, I gave him as an example because they were among the most

10     well known.  I singled him out as an example, but I didn't say only

11     Goran Opacic and his brothers.  There were other men too there, Kresovic,

12     Vesic, quite a number of them, between 10 and 15 men who went back to

13     Benkovac because that's where they belonged.

14        Q.   So just focusing on May to July, are you saying that 50 police

15     officers were trained during that period as you told us 10, 15 minutes,

16     and then returned to their police units?

17        A.   Again I simply don't know what to say, how to answer the

18     question.  It's all a game of figures for me.  50 or more.  Anyway, maybe

19     a total of 150 people but I didn't keep count how many went there and how

20     many remained.  Some of them as soon as they were done with the training

21     got missions and they were off to do something specific, attack someone

22     or do something else.  It's very difficult to determine from where I

23     stand what the exact figures might be.

24        Q.   Well, let's forget figures for a moment then, if you can't deal

25     with figures.  Apart from returning to their original units as with

Page 7252

 1     Opacic, what else did they do and how did they do it?

 2        A.   Again, well, I can give you an example.  For example, a squad

 3     commander, 2nd lieutenant Calic, for example, had some sort of a mission,

 4     in a way, to go to Gugova [phoen].  According to information provided by

 5     the chief of state security Dusan Orlovic, they were supposed to attack

 6     or destroy Ljubovo by firing missiles.  There was an a erstwhile farm

 7     there known as Ljubovo.  That was one of their missions.  Some for

 8     example went back to Glina later on to attack the police station there

 9     and take it over.  They had been trained in Golubic and they were sent to

10     take over the Dvor Na Uni police station.  I didn't keep any records as

11     to who was going where or doing what.  I was not keeping count.

12        Q.   Well, who was giving them the commands, their original unit or

13     someone else, do you know that?

14        A.   They were obviously under the command of Frenki and

15     Captain Dragan.  I wasn't there when orders were given.

16        Q.   So you're suggesting that Frenki was giving orders at what stage?

17     What time in 1991?  Which months?

18        A.   I can't say.  I'm not saying directly that Frenki gave any

19     orders.  I wasn't there to see or hear it.  I'm just saying those were

20     his men, under his command, and the command of Captain Dragan.  I don't

21     know which of them it was that actually gave orders.  But people talked

22     about this.  It was an open secret.  Everyone was enthusiastic about what

23     these people had achieved.  Afterwards, they were nicknamed the Knindzes,

24     the invincibles, the invisibles, and enjoyed the reputation of men who

25     were able to achieve any feat they imagined.

Page 7253

 1        Q.   Well, did you see him give orders in July 1991, Frenki, that is?

 2        A.   I wasn't there when he gave any orders.  I can't say he ordered

 3     something.

 4        Q.   Did you see him in September, Frenki, in Knin or the Krajina?

 5        A.   September.  September, which year?

 6        Q.   1991?

 7        A.   I really don't remember whether that was in September 1991.

 8        Q.   Do you remember him at all in the Knin region between September

 9     and December of 1991?

10        A.   I can't remember seeing him specifically between September and

11     December 1991.  I don't remember.  Why do I not remember?  There was a

12     huge conflict and Martic asked from Belgrade that he should be sent away

13     from Knin from Golubic to the fortress and then from there on to

14     Korenica.  Martic wanted him out of there because he was creating too

15     much trouble with his men.

16        Q.   Let's go into that a little if we can.  You say, is this right --

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I really don't want to be difficult,

18     but I'm getting rather hostile looks from the man in the public gallery

19     which is a little off-putting who is a looking directly at me constantly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I can't see that man because for me he is behind.

21     Could the --

22             MR. JORDASH:  He has moved now, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  He has moved to a place where there's no eye contact

24     between you and that person.  Then let's move on.

25             MR. JORDASH:

Page 7254

 1        Q.   Now, Martic was unhappy you say with Frenki.  For what reason

 2     precisely?

 3        A.   There were many reasons.  Frenki was acting the big boss, more

 4     than arrogant.  He was arrogant in the way he addressed people and

 5     officers.  He kept eating out in restaurants and cafes, he drank and

 6     socialised with people in Knin who had murky and shady backgrounds,

 7     became friends who were shady people, and Martic was suspicious and

 8     unhappy about all of that.  People had a hard time getting by.  There

 9     were no salaries or anything and he was spending a lot of money and

10     driving nice cars.  He was driving PUCH Mercedes vehicles and those were

11     easy to spot.  Wherever he went he would park the car outside and

12     everybody knew he was there because the car was huge.  Babic asked

13     Belgrade do anything they could just to get him out of there and that's

14     why they were transferred to the fortress, and from there to Korenica

15     where they stayed for quite some time.  They stayed until 1992 and 1993,

16     as far as I remember.

17        Q.   So Babic asked Belgrade to get Frenki out; is that right?  You've

18     just said that?

19        A.   No, I said Babic talked to Martic and asked Martic to talk to

20     Belgrade to ask for Frenki to be sent away.  There were too many people

21     complaining about him.  The officers could no longer put up with that and

22     there was a huge rift that occurred as a result.

23        Q.   So instead of Frenki being removed, he was then, is this -- am I

24     understanding the situation correctly, transferred to the fortress?

25        A.   Yes.  In fact, he spent most of his time in Belgrade rather than

Page 7255

 1     at the fortress, and then when he did come to Knin for a couple of days,

 2     a day or two, then they would have these meetings together at the

 3     fortress, they would quarrel, so that it was asked for him to be -- to go

 4     back.

 5        Q.   Earlier today you said that there was no direct departure from

 6     Golubic camp to Korenica.  Part of the command centre was moved with some

 7     men to the fortress in Knin.  Is it your evidence then that as a result

 8     of Babic and Martic requesting Frenki's removal from Knin, what happened

 9     instead was that Frenki was moved with the command centre to the fortress

10     in Knin?  Am I understanding that correctly?

11        A.   Well, that's not exactly what I meant.  He was moved, or rather,

12     part of the staff belonged to the TO, so that the facilities at the

13     fortress belonged actually to the TO.  So they wanted them to leave

14     Golubic so that the Golubic could be handed over to the TO because it was

15     becoming unbearable.  And then from Knin he moved to Belgrade and then

16     from Belgrade he came back to Korenica.  He would just come for meetings

17     in Knin.  (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20        Q.   Which command centre moved to the fortress?  Whose command

21     centre?

22        A.   The staff that was moved, the headquarters that were moved to the

23     fortress were now again a single unified command because the TO had

24     already been there.  The main objective was to remove Frenki and

25     Captain Dragan and his men as far away from Golubic as possible.

Page 7256

 1        Q.   Let me just try to understand.  As a result of what you say was

 2     Frenki's bad behaviour, he was moved with the command centre of the

 3     training in Golubic to the fortress where there was then a unified

 4     command?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I'm really concerned about -- may I

 6     give it a better try because we were -- let me see whether I understood

 7     the witness.

 8             Witness JF-039, I understood your testimony and earlier testimony

 9     in your statement to reflect approximately the following, and I might

10     have one or two clarifying questions:  In the training facility in

11     Golubic, a conflict arose as to who would command the TO, and that there

12     was concern that Frenki was too influential in commanding TO, and that

13     that was the reason why they wanted to move him from Golubic to the Knin

14     fortress.  Let me first verify whether I understood that well?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you further explained that his behaviour and in

17     the evidence, the written evidence we have before us, it was spending a

18     lot of money, driving big cars, where there was insufficient goods or

19     money for the population, that that irritated, I think in the written

20     statements we also find his behaviour in relation to women, and that that

21     was another reason to get rid of him.  Is that well understood?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that bad behaviour, as you said, drinking,

24     socialising with the wrong persons, et cetera, et cetera, did that start

25     in Golubic or was that after he was more or less taken from Golubic and

Page 7257

 1     condemned to the headquarters at the Knin fortress?  Had that started

 2     already in Golubic or did that start once he was moved to the Knin

 3     fortress?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That started before he was moved to

 5     the Knin fortress.  It started perhaps very soon after he began coming to

 6     Knin on a regular basis.  The people at the police station did not like

 7     it when he came there.  Later on, with everything that happened at

 8     Golubic, this just added to the previous trouble.  It was just the last

 9     straw, and in fact that was the main reason, as you said, Your Honour,

10     that he wanted to take command of the TO without really being entitled to

11     that, and that was one of the major issues.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So do I understand that both his personal behaviour

13     and the conflict about who would command the TO, that those two reasons

14     caused Martic and/or Babic to get him first of all out of Golubic and

15     later even to get him out of Knin?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   And so Frenki was moved to Golubic -- sorry, the fortress and

20     what happened then at the fortress?

21        A.   At the fortress the only thing -- the only thing that was there

22     was the command centre.  They called it the protection platoon, and they

23     were already preparing at the request of Bosko Bozanic who was the

24     municipality president, the president of the Korenica municipality, in

25     order to pacify the situation, they asked that he be transferred to

Page 7258

 1     Korenica and help them out there in establishing a centre.  But I think

 2     in between for awhile he had returned to Belgrade.

 3        Q.   So the command centre at the fortress continued to train the

 4     police, did it, having been separated from the TO?

 5        A.   The command centre did not command the police.  It had the

 6     hallmarks of military -- of a military structure.  So that's why I said

 7     that the time-frame was very important because in two weeks time, part of

 8     the regular --

 9        Q.   I think you misunderstood my question.  I asked whether the

10     command centre at the fortress continued to train the police as it had

11     done in part at Golubic?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So what was it the command centre of at the fortress?

14        A.   The command centre was a command centre until the training centre

15     in Korenica was established.  In other words, it was only transformed

16     into a military command centre and the Territorial Defence remained.  The

17     TO at that time was taking over the barricades and for that reason there

18     was a command centre.

19        Q.   When was the training centre in Korenica established?

20        A.   I don't know exactly when it was established.  It was established

21     after the total take-over had been completed.  When the transfer from the

22     Golubic was done, parts of the staff were sent to Udbina and part were

23     sent to Korenica, but I don't know exactly when it was established.

24        Q.   In 1991 was it established?

25        A.   In Tito Korenica, I think so.

Page 7259

 1        Q.   Late 1991?

 2        A.   I think it was sometime in 1991.  Late 1991.

 3        Q.   Did training continue in the fortress up until the training

 4     centre in Korenica was established?

 5        A.   Well, in the fortress, what they used to refer to as veterans,

 6     they were there.  They were mostly there to provide security and be sent

 7     on assignments and sometimes it was just enough for them to appear to be

 8     visible so that the people could see them and feel safer.

 9        Q.   So was there any training in the fortress between --

10        A.   I think it would be fair to say that, yes, some training was

11     provided there.

12        Q.   Of who?

13        A.   Special Forces.  At the time they were already called the

14     Knindzes.

15        Q.   Were these police?  Were these recruits from the police?

16        A.   I can't really say that they were from the police.  Maybe some of

17     the men were from the command structure, the police command structure,

18     but the others were people who typically had undergone training but

19     didn't have any police background.

20        Q.   What was Martic's involvement in this?

21        A.   Well, he was there around the clock at the command, especially at

22     the fortress, unless he was away on a trip, a business trip.

23        Q.   Doing what?  Working hand in hand with Simatovic, with Frenki?

24        A.   I don't know what they did at the headquarters behind closed

25     doors, but sometimes they planned various missions.  When I say

Page 7260

 1     "mission," I mean perhaps an attack, like they organised an attack on

 2     Lovinac.  They negotiated with people from various parts on how to

 3     proceed, but I did not attend those meetings so I wouldn't really know

 4     what they discussed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Jordash, I'm looking at the clock.

 6     It's close to 7.00, could you please keep that in mind for the next one

 7     or two minutes.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.  Could we have,

 9     please, P978 on e-court.

10        Q.   Your previous witness statement, Mr. Witness, from 2003?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Wouldn't that take more than one or two minutes,

12     Mr. Jordash?  I'm concerned about my own reputation as well.

13             MR. JORDASH:  I'm happy to leave it at that for now, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could I get an indication as far as time is

15     concerned?

16             MR. JORDASH:  Given the way that it's progressed, I would request

17     at least three hours more.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac or Mr. Petrovic.

19             MR. BAKRAC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, when you asked me last

20     week how long I would take, I told you I would need about two and a half

21     to three hours, and Mr. Jordash is dealing with issues that relate to my

22     client, so some new questions have arisen, but I assume that I can finish

23     my cross-examination in about two and a half hours.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I briefly discussed with my colleagues the way in

Page 7261

 1     which the cross-examination is conducted.  When you said, Mr. Jordash,

 2     that in view of -- given the way that it's progressed, things do not

 3     progress.  Things are dealt in a way and then go more speedily or not.

 4     The Chamber is not convinced, as a matter of fact, that the extra time it

 5     takes that that's primarily or mainly due to the witness.  So therefore,

 6     you are invited also to see whether you can speed up and --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I wasn't actually blaming the witness,

 8     but what I did was -- I needed to go through that because I needed to

 9     establish certain issues, and Your Honours will see tomorrow morning

10     within a short time why I established all those facts.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps it's important that the witness -- that

12     the Chamber tomorrow morning within a short time thinks about it.  Even

13     if the why becomes clear then that still doesn't say everything about the

14     how, but let's wait until tomorrow morning when you said that within a

15     short time it will be clear for us.  But to be convinced we need at least

16     tomorrow in a short time.

17             Witness JF-039, may I again instruct you that you should not

18     speak to anyone about your testimony, whether it's testimony you've given

19     already today or whether it's testimony to be given tomorrow or even

20     after that, that includes anyone who may accompany you as a support

21     person, it is for everyone, parties, non-parties, whomever it is.  And I

22     repeat that if you would not follow this instructions, you are violating

23     an order of this Chamber and that can have serious consequences.

24             We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, the 15th of

25     September at 9.00 in Courtroom II.

Page 7262

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

 3                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.