1 Thursday, 11 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The Accused Stanisic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
9 everyone in and around the courtroom.
10 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 As announced yesterday, we see that Mr. Stanisic is not present.
14 He has waived his right to be present today, Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: That's right, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Then we turn into closed session.
18 [Closed session]
11 Pages 9056-9115 redacted. Closed session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few items I'd like to discuss with the
21 parties. The first is scheduling. I will not go beyond this month at
22 this moment. I do understand that the intention at this moment is - and
23 I'm focusing on the 15th of November, the 17th of November, and the
24 18th of November - to hear the testimony of Mr. Kirudja, to be further
25 cross-examined by the Simatovic Defence, further examination-in-chief by
1 the Prosecution, and then possibly some cross-examination on those new
2 issues. And Witness JF-030, where the parties asked for three hours for
3 direct examination, five hours for cross by the Stanisic Defence, and
4 three and a half hours of cross for the Simatovic Defence.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure if you misspoke or whether
6 you misunderstood my -- what I said yesterday, I'm not seeking to re-open
7 my examination-in-chief of Dr. Kirudja.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, then --
9 MR. GROOME: No, I was agreeing -- I was saying I would not
10 oppose Mr. Jordash's application to ask additional questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: To ask additional questions.
12 Mr. Jordash, and how much time would these additional questions
13 take, approximately?
14 MR. JORDASH: No more than an hour, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No more than an hour. That's what we had.
16 Then what we have, therefore, is for Mr. Kirudja - sorry for
17 having misunderstood - we would need two hours, is that ... altogether.
18 Simatovic Defence one hour, further questions, and perhaps 10 or
19 15 minutes more fop any matter raised by you, Mr. Jordash. So that's two
21 Now, on an average of nine sessions in three days, nine sessions
22 of one hour and 15 minutes, then a little bit over seven sessions would
23 remain for that week. I am talking about the 15th, the 17th, and the
24 18th. May I take it that Witness JF-030 would be available already on
25 that Monday afternoon?
1 MR. GROOME: He arrived today in The Hague, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
3 Now, for these a little bit over seven sessions which comes close
4 to approximately nine hours, we have the Prosecution asking for three
5 hours; cross-examination, Stanisic, five hours; cross-examination,
6 Simatovic, three and a half hours; which would be 11 and a half hours.
7 The Chamber is considering, also in view of more limited approach chosen
8 often by other Chambers, to limit the time for further
9 examination-in-chief and not to allow three hours, but rather we are
10 thinking about two hours.
11 Mr. Groome, you may be aware that some Chambers even say 92 ter
12 is 92 ter, well, if you have 15 minutes extra, fine, but that's it.
13 What we are aiming at, to see whether you could reduce the time
14 for further examination to - and that's at this moment a
15 suggestion - two hours. We have a 40-page 92 ter statement, a very
16 extensive page -- statement, and we wonder whether it would not be
17 possible to ask additional questions in approximately two hours.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I was just standing to say I've been
19 reviewing the material all day, and I believe I will be an hour and a
20 half or less.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Which means that we would six and a half to
22 seven hours left for the Defence. The Chamber is -- has considered the
23 efficiency in cross-examination and is not convinced that where eight and
24 a half hours are sought that by moving more efficiently that this could
25 not be done in seven hours for the two Defence teams together, which
1 would mean that we would conclude the Kirudja evidence and Witness
2 JF-030's evidence in three days next week. Even if the -- let me be
3 clear on that, even if the Prosecution would have claimed two or two and
4 a half hours, and they've now reduced it to one hour and a half, the
5 Chamber would have considered the same. On average, and considering how
6 cross-examination takes place, the Chamber is convinced, and we remain on
7 the safe side in this respect, that cross-examination could be conducted
8 in approximately two-thirds of the time which is often claimed or which
9 is often used.
10 Any comment on this schedule for next week? One hour and a
11 half -- Kirudja, altogether, two hours or a little bit over two hours.
12 One hour and a half in chief for Witness JF-030. And then the remainder
13 of the time for the Defence. I hope that we don't have two many
14 procedural issues; we'll deal with a few today. And I take it that
15 Defence teams will communicate how to divide that time so that not the
16 one is causing the problems for the other.
17 The Chamber invites the parties for the 23rd, 24th, and
18 25th of November, where Witness JF-057 has been scheduled and where the
19 total time is 11 and a half hours, also to see whether by being more
20 focused and reducing some of the time whether Witness JF-057 could give
21 his evidence during those three days. We'll hear from you if there are
22 any compelling reasons why this would not be possible somewhere early
23 next week.
24 Then I'd like to move on at this moment. We might -- I do
25 understand that early December is still negotiated. If --
1 Mr. Groome, is that true?
2 MR. GROOME: I do have some information. We have been able to
3 contact JF-026 today, and JF-026 is available to testify on the 30th.
4 And I believe we're also scheduled the 1st after that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. You say because the 23rd and the
6 24th of November had to be rescheduled? Okay. That's at least gives
7 some perspective of not losing unnecessarily time.
8 I would now like to read out the reasons for the Chamber's
9 decision on augmentation of protective measures for Witness JF-041.
10 On the 28th of September, 2010, the Prosecution had requested the
11 Chamber to augment the protective measures in place for Witness JF-041
12 and to allow his testimony to be given entirely in closed session. On
13 the 4th of October, the Stanisic Defence informed the Chamber by informal
14 communication that it did not oppose the Prosecution's request. On the
15 4th of October, the Simatovic Defence stated in court that it also did
16 not oppose the request.
17 The Chamber then granted the Prosecution's request for closed
18 session for Witness JF-041 in private session, and the public is hereby
19 informed of it. All of this can be found at transcript page 7601.
20 In its motion of the 28th of September, the Prosecution submitted
21 that the protective measures previously granted to Witness JF-041 had
22 proven ineffective and that Witness JF-041 had been subjected to
23 significant acts of intimidation following his testimony in another case
24 before this Tribunal.
25 The Prosecution submitted that despite the protective measures,
1 Witness JF-041's identity had become publicly known, his house had been
2 broken into on numerous occasions, and he had received threatening phone
4 Pursuant to Rule 75(I) of the Rules, the Chamber consulted with
5 one of the Judges who initially granted the protective measures to
6 Witness JF-041 and who's the only member of the previous Chamber who
7 remains a judge at the Tribunal. Further, the Chamber consulted with
8 Witness JF-041 in court prior to the commencement of his testimony to
9 confirm that he consented to the augmented protective measures of closed
11 Having considered the threats received by Witness JF-041 and his
12 family following his testimony in the other case before the Tribunal, the
13 Chamber found that the protective measures granted at that time were
14 insufficient and that the only effective way to protect Witness JF-041's
15 identity was to hear his testimony in closed session. And for this
16 reason, the Chamber granted the Prosecution's request.
17 And this concludes the Chamber's reason.
18 I would like to move into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 9122-9127 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We'll adjourn, and we
23 resume on Monday, the 15th of November, quarter past 2.00 in this same
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.35 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day
2 of November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.