1 Tuesday, 23 November, 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-69-T.
9 The Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Before we'll continue to hear further evidence, I'd like to deal
12 with a few procedural matters. The Prosecution has inquired into the
13 outcome of a motion for the change of the status of testimony and exhibit
14 in relation to witness Manojlo Milovanovic. I hereby read out the
15 decision of the Chamber.
16 The Chamber would like to issue its decision on the Prosecution
17 motion for change of status of testimony and exhibit related to witness
18 Manojlo Milovanovic.
19 On the 2nd of November, 2010, the Prosecution filed a motion
20 requesting the Chamber to change the status of certain portions of the
21 transcript from the testimony of witness Milovanovic from private to
22 public and to lift the confidentiality of one document. The Defence did
23 not respond to the motion.
24 The relevant parts of the testimony as well as the document
25 relate to a set of notebooks for which, at the time of the testimony of
1 Witness Milovanovic, the provider had not yet indicated whether it would
2 seek protective measures. The testimony of witness Milovanovic related
3 to the notebooks was therefore provisionally heard in private session and
4 the document placed under seal.
5 However, since the provider of the notebooks has now indicated it
6 will not seek protective measures for the notebooks, the reason for
7 hearing the testimony in private session and placing the document under
8 seal no longer exists. Therefore, the Chamber grants the motion and
9 decides that the status of the transcript page 4400, line 1 through
10 transcript page 4403, line 10, and transcript page 4408, line 15 through
11 transcript page 4409, line 19, be converted into public. The Chamber
12 further decides that the confidentiality of P378, currently marked for
13 identification be lifted. And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
14 Although I have a few more items, there's one which I would like
15 to -- no, let me first -- in relation to the testimony of Mr. Theunens,
16 we expect submissions on the admissibility of the report of Mr. Theunens
17 but no dead-line has been set for such submissions, and I wonder whether
18 the Defence teams could indicate what they would prefer to have set as a
20 MR. JORDASH: The difficulty we have is this, that there is an
21 on-going disagreement between the Prosecution and the Defence concerning
22 disclosure which we, the Defence, deem important to be able to amount or
23 to decide whether we challenge the admissibility of the report. We
24 submit that the Prosecution ought to disclose everything they have in
25 their possession which indicates what work Mr. Theunens did on this case.
1 The Prosecution's position is somewhat more restricted than that. And I
2 spoke to Mr. Weber from the Prosecution yesterday. I agreed that we
3 would send a paragraph to the Prosecution indicating precisely what we
4 wanted and then we would wait for their response, but I don't anticipate
5 that we are going to come to an agreement on the issue. So to cut
6 matters short, we would ask for -- perhaps if we could address
7 Your Honours in maybe a day after we've sent the paragraph and received a
8 response from the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So that is to inform the Chamber about where we
10 stand as far as your disclosure concerns --
11 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- are, and we would then set a dead-line, and I can
13 imagine if the matter has not been resolved that you would like to make
14 further submissions in relation to that as well. Is there any way that
15 if you do not come to an agreement that you would provisionally make
16 submissions with a reservation that disclosure in your view has not been
17 complete and explaining why, in your view, it has not been complete.
18 MR. JORDASH: Well, the problem we have is that the submission
19 would be based on what contact Mr. --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll hear from the parties tomorrow.
21 MR. JORDASH: I can send the e-mail very early tomorrow morning
22 and hopefully the Prosecution can indicate their position soon
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from the parties tomorrow in the
25 afternoon. There was already an indication that the Prosecution wanted
1 to respond to your submissions, of course very much will depend on what
2 your final submissions will be, whether you object to the admission or
3 whether you do not.
4 Anything from the Simatovic Defence in this respect.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, we agree with what
6 Mr. Jordash has just said and our position is that Mr. Jordash also spoke
7 on behalf of our team.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. Now, of course, the Chamber
9 expects that the parties would already also work on the spreadsheet on
10 related exhibits and documents. To give a warning already after the last
11 submissions on admission have been made, it's uncertain at this moment
12 when that will exactly be, then the Chamber would wish to receive within
13 three days from that moment the spreadsheet. So that whether there's
14 still dispute about admissibility should not keep you off from already
15 paying attention to the spreadsheet which the Chamber would like to
16 receive three days after the last submission has been made in accordance
17 with instructions of the Chamber.
18 Then, Mr. Groome, there was an issue about scheduling of
19 Witness Nielsen in his -- the possibly that he would be able to come back
20 in a week after he starts giving his testimony, could you inform the
21 Chamber about it.
22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'm not sure of the precise
23 dates, it's in the weekly notification this week. But I believe he has
24 freed himself up the entire week after he begins his testimony, so he is
25 here at the liberty of the Court.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that information.
2 Then, finally, I would like to pay attention to the scheduling
3 for the first week after the winter recess. The Prosecution has asked
4 the Chamber what -- on what days we would sit in that week. They said
5 it's announced that we would sit the 11 and the 13th, that's only two
6 days, what will be a possible third day we would sit? The Chamber had
7 considered that matter and had opted for the 14th of January, but after
8 we had given our instructions in relation to that, we received another
9 request which is the request by the Simatovic Defence in which it is set
10 out that the 8th and the 9th of January, it's Orthodox Christmas, and
11 that the Defence would very much like to restart on the 17th only because
12 they would like to spend the time between Christmas and new year with the
13 family, new year being the 14th of January.
14 That request to start on the 17th is denied, but where I said
15 earlier that the Chamber had decided that we would sit on the 11th, the
16 13th, and the 14th of January, the Chamber is willing to reconsider the
17 schedule for that week which is not easy because we have out-of-court
18 commitments on the 13th -- the 12th and that's the reason why we
19 scheduled for the 11th, the 13th and the 14th, but the Chamber is willing
20 to consider and explore the possibilities to sit on Monday the 10th of
21 January in the morning, which, of course, would require the
22 Simatovic Defence to return already on the 9th, then to sit on the 10th,
23 the 12th, and -- no, the 10th, the 11th, and the 12th, that is Monday,
24 Tuesday, and Wednesday, and then not to sit on the 13th and the 14th. I
25 repeat that the Chamber is willing to explore -- to consider and to
1 explore this possibility but would like to hear from the
2 Simatovic Defence to start with whether this would be something they
3 would appreciate because they asked for something totally different, that
4 is not to sit during that whole week. And that last request has been
5 denied and the possible new schedule for that week would still require
6 you to return to The Hague no later than the 9th because we would sit on
7 the 10th in the morning, with a small possibility that we might move to
8 the afternoon if Perisic would not sit in the afternoon, then we would
9 consider to move to the afternoon. And which would keep you in The Hague
10 at least for the whole of the 12th of January, which would mean that you
11 would not be able to return to your families until the 13th.
12 Again, it takes quite a bit from the Chamber but we are willing
13 to consider and explore but only if the Simatovic Defence would say,
14 Well, if do you not grant our initial request not to sit at all during
15 that week, we would still appreciate if we could sit on the 10th, the
16 11th, and the 12th rather than to sit on the 11th, the 13th, and the
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. If you
19 would be kind enough to allow me to answer you after the break, I would
20 need to consult with my colleague, Mr. Petrovic, and the rest of the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is understood. We'd like to hear from
23 you after the break.
24 Then a very short matter. I refer to transcript page 9197 where
25 you'll read:
1 "The Registrar: The document 1D1485 becomes D1421 marked for
2 identification, Your Honours."
3 I then said:
4 "One second, D1421 keeps that status for the time being. Please
6 A mistake was made there. The D1421 MFI'd should be D142. The
7 transcript is hereby corrected.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I've dealt with all the procedural matters I had on
10 my list. If there's nothing else, for the next witness who will testify
11 in closed session under pseudonym. Mr. Groome, are you ready to call
12 your next witness?
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution is ready to call
15 JUDGE ORIE: JF-057. We'll then turn into closed session,
16 unless, Mr. Jordash, there's anything you would like to raise before we
17 go into closed session?
18 MR. JORDASH: Probably best in closed session, it's concerning
19 the next witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we turn into closed session.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 9329-9418 redacted. Closed session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm going to take half
19 a minute more because I'm obliged to inform you about how we will
20 continue our work after the winter recess. I feel quite bad to be
21 creating problems. Our team would be willing to use what you have
22 offered to us, that we work on the 10th and the 11th, and the 12th in the
23 morning. If this does not pose too many problems for the Trial
24 Chamber --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I can't promise you the 12th in the morning. That
1 depends on but we'll explore -- let's further deal with this tomorrow, I
2 would say. But it's clear that especially Wednesday the 12th, morning or
3 afternoon, whether that's possible at all. We adjourn for the day and we
4 resume tomorrow, Wednesday the 24th of November, quarter past 2.00 in
5 this same Courtroom II where we'll immediately go into closed session
6 again to hear the continuation of the examination of the present witness.
7 We stand adjourned.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
10 November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.