1 Thursday, 2 December, 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is the case number
9 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 First, I have to admit that I'd forgotten to turn into open
12 session yesterday before adjourning. That's the reason why we're now in
13 open session, although we'll turn into closed session relatively soon.
14 When we are waiting for the witness to be brought in, I have one
15 or two short matters, but the Usher can already try to find him.
16 What would the parties like to do with the handwritten letter
17 we've seen yesterday? I can imagine that you -- it's available to you
18 and that there's no need to further do anything with it. But before
19 deciding on the matter -- that's the letter to VWS.
20 Mr. Groome.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution would ask that it be
22 exhibited. And I believe the Chamber said yesterday that the Prosecution
23 and Defence would be provided with copies of the reply to this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If that has not been done yet, then I think I would
25 consult the VWS to see whether we just inform you about the content,
1 which to some extent we've done already, or whether there's any reason
2 why VWS considers any confidentiality in there.
3 The Defence, do you think that the letter written to VWS should
4 be an exhibit?
5 MR. JORDASH: May I have the opportunity to go through it in
6 detail, please? I didn't look at it overnight.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Mr. Petrovic.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we simply don't have
10 a position. I don't see the point, but if any of the parties, including
11 the Chamber, believe it might be helpful, let it be admitted.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Are we in closed session? No, we're not yet in
13 closed session. We turn into closed session.
14 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We are in closed session. The witness may be --
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
20 MR. JORDASH: There was a matter, but it can wait, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Witness JF-026, first of all, I'd like to remind you that you're
23 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
24 your testimony, that you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and
25 nothing but the truth. Is that clear?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 WITNESS: JF-026 [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to invite you to tell us whether
5 there are any matters you found in the transcript of the first case
6 and/or the transcript of the second case which you consider to be not in
7 accordance with the truth, and to inform us about it.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday, to the extent I was able
9 to, I looked through the material from Case 1, and I have one observation
10 to make which concerns page 180.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Page 180. Let's just -- yes, page 180 would
12 translate into our page numbering how, Mr. Groome, if you would --
13 MR. GROOME: We cannot translate. That's the problem, the way
14 it's been published. That's why if the witness could read and orient us
15 that way, I think we may be able to find it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 If you could read one or two lines of the portion you want to
18 draw our attention to, then we'll be able to find it. Witness, could you
19 read a portion of it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the penultimate paragraph on
21 the page, where a time-frame has to be set. I am answering that it was
22 because of the MUP of Serbia, because the Prosecutor asked me if this
23 was -- if it was the person from the MUP of Serbia, and the year
24 concerned was 1993, when the individual was not a member of the MUP of
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would literally read one line, then
2 we'll try to find it in the English. And so if you would read one line,
3 and then -- well, let's say the first line of your answer, we'll then try
4 to find it, and then you'll have an opportunity to further explain.
5 Could you read that one line?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It reads:
7 "Prosecutor Groome.
8 "Q. But the person you handed over your request to is a member
9 of the MUP of Serbia?"
20 "We didn't even know. We simply asked for assistance then, and
21 my friend at the time, an employee of the MUP of Serbia ..."
22 I think maybe this is the entry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: In the first case, I'm in the range of 21 --
24 MR. JORDASH: This is the 5th of June.
25 JUDGE ORIE: 5th of June of the year ...?
1 MR. JORDASH: 2003.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, one second, one second.
3 Okay, I'll now read it in context and see whether we are at the
4 same page.
5 Witness, I'll read the question, and perhaps you follow it:
6 "So Arkan's appearance in Zvornik was after you made a request to
7 the MUP of Serbia for assistance in Zvornik?"
8 Then your answer was:
9 "No, we were not in the MUP. We were at the Assembly Committee."
10 Then the question was:
11 "But the person you conveyed your request to was a member of the
12 MUP of Serbia?"
13 And then you said:
14 "Yes, it is through him that I received information that after
15 Bijeljina, Arkan would come to Zvornik."
16 Is that the portion you're referring to? What would you like to
17 change or to add?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, since this is about 1992,
19 this individual was not a member of the MUP at the time. I said that I
20 did not specify the time-frame. He was not a member of the MUP of Serbia
21 at that time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let's see. You say he was not a member of the
23 MUP at that time. Did he become a member of the MUP after 1992?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the fact that I knew that
25 he had been a member of the MUP, whether it was 1993 or 1994, I said that
1 the individual was a member of the MUP. But I don't know the exact time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could tell us who it was. Then we have
3 an opportunity to verify.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Kostic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's Rado Kostic?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's now on the record.
8 Are there any other portions which you consider not to be --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rest that I reviewed, I think,
10 reflects my evidence. But bear in mind that wherever I say that I
11 directly participated in the events, that was the case, whereas in other
12 portions where I do not make such a reference, I am probably inferring or
13 conveying information I received from others.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is no direct knowledge, but knowledge
15 deriving from other sources.
16 Now, is there any point where you have not personally observed
17 what you describe? Is there any piece of information which you now say
18 is incorrect? So it's clear that if you say, I observed this personally,
19 then that's your own observation. It's also clear that if you do not say
20 so, that you have obtained your information from other sources and cannot
21 guarantee that it's correct. But is there anything you obtained from
22 those other sources which you now say is certainly not correct or where
23 you have serious doubts at this moment, despite you believed it was true
24 when you told -- when you testified, that you now say, No, I know now, on
25 the basis of additional information, that it is not true? Is there any
1 such instance?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I observed it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I leave this for the time being.
4 As far as other testimonies are concerned, I think the
5 Prosecution did not tender the other material. You asked for it,
6 Mr. Jordash, so we'll see what happens with that material, how you're
7 going to use it, if you're going to use it at all.
8 Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to continue? And could I also
9 inquire as far as timing is concerned.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that I will
11 need an hour and a half, so a bit more than a full session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could you already give --
13 MR. JORDASH: I think I could finish by the end of the day.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll see whether that's possible or not. If
15 not -- if that would not be possible, the Chamber has already explored
16 possibilities that if we couldn't finish today, that at least we could
17 finish before the weekend. Of course, it would be appreciated if we do
18 not need extra sessions, but just for you to know.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]
22 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I have several questions for you.
23 Tell me, the individual by the name of Milan Sojic, what role, if any, he
24 had in the arming of the Serbian population of Zvornik in 1991 and 1992.
25 A. Milan Sojic hails from Zvornik. He held a high position in the
1 National Bank of Serbia. It was through this capacity that he came to
2 know certain JNA officers and was able to use certain channels to provide
3 as much assistance as possible.
4 Q. Is it true that together with General Svetozar Andric, he
5 procured weapons, that he was the contact?
6 A. Yes. At the time, General Svetozar Andric was captain first
7 class and the chief of the military police for the town of Belgrade.
8 Q. Tell us -- generally speaking, can you tell us what the overall
9 quantity of weapons that reached Zvornik originated from JNA sources, if
10 you can?
11 A. Well, roughly 90 per cent from the JNA and 10 per cent from
13 Q. The 90 per cent you mention, it was distributed either directly
14 from the JNA or through the SDS?
15 A. Well, for the most part from the JNA, and in part through the
16 SDS. As I said, we manned their ranks, and as part of the instructions
17 we were respond to the JNA call-ups as far as possible in order to fill
18 up their reserve force.
19 Q. Witness, look at D49, please. It will appear on your screen
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] And I'd like the witness to be
22 shown page 3 in B/C/S and 4 in English.
23 Q. Witness, these are conclusions and assessments of the situation
24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina which the Command of the 2nd District sent to the
25 General Staff in March 1992. The document was compiled by and sent to
1 the General Staff by Lieutenant General Milutin Kukanjac.
2 I'd like you to look at item F, which is on page 289 of the
3 photocopy. So under F, it reads, and it relates to the overall territory
4 of Bosnia, that:
5 "The JNA has distributed around 52.000, and the SDS around
7 What I'd like to know is whether this ratio that we see here can
8 be roughly applied to the territory of Zvornik, which you have personal
9 knowledge of?
10 A. Yes, certainly, although I think that the ratio would be even
11 higher in the direction of the JNA.
12 Q. When you say "even higher," you mean that the higher amount of
13 weaponry distributed by the JNA would apply to the territory of Zvornik?
14 A. Yes, I'd stick by the 90 to 10 ratio, 90 per cent to 10 per cent.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 2D328, which 65
16 ter document, 2D328.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, would you be able to lay a foundation
18 for this apparent judgement or assessment of the percentage, unless
19 that's what you wanted to do with the next document.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps there's a
21 problem in interpretation. The witness said 90 per cent of the weapons
22 came from the JNA. Then I showed him a document which related to the
23 whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and he told me that --
24 JUDGE ORIE: There's no doubt about that. What I'd like to know
25 is: What is the specific knowledge the witness has to say, overall, it
1 may have been 75-25, but in Zvornik it was 90-10. And then to say, You
2 were there, so you would know, is not a very strong basis for such a
3 numerical assessment.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was under the
5 impression that I achieved as much through my line of questioning
6 yesterday and today which related to the arming effort through the JNA.
7 He referred to five or six sources which supplied the Zvornik area with
8 weapons from the JNA.
9 Let me ask him this:
10 Q. Witness, based on your knowledge of the sources and quantities
11 that we mentioned today and yesterday, can you ascertain that it was from
12 the JNA that 90 per cent of the weapons arrived in Zvornik?
13 A. Well, that was on the basis of the assessments we made in the
14 Crisis Staff to see to what extent certain areas were armed and to what
15 extent certain areas were at risk, and that's how we made subsequent
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you keep a record of the numbers, and how and
18 where they were distributed, and what their origin was?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did keep records, as much as we
20 could. I know the first time when the investigators put questions to me,
21 they brought me at least 200 copies, and they showed me documents where I
22 had personally signed for those distributions.
23 We thought that there would not be a war, and we thought that
24 there would be certain inspections that would ask, What happened with
25 those weapons? As soon as the weapons were there, talks started about
1 abuse, about smuggling, about illicit sales, and so on, and that's why we
2 kept these records.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The records would give an opportunity to
4 verify the accuracy of the answers of the witness, so the parties are
5 invited to consider that matter in a bit more detail.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Witness, would you please look at the document that is on the
9 screen in front of you, I believe. Please have a look at it. It's very
10 brief. And then I'm going to put some questions to you.
11 Have you had a look?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you, perhaps, familiar with this document?
14 A. I haven't seen it before.
15 Q. Is it correct that all the weapons that work organisations had
16 were taken over by the JNA and the TO at one point in time in the
17 beginning of the 1990s?
18 A. Yes. It is a well-known fact that the previous defence system
19 was such that all work organisations had certain quantities of weaponry
20 for TO purposes, and that was one of the sources of the conflict. We
21 wanted them to be handed over to the JNA, and the Muslims wanted them to
22 be handed over to the local TO, because in most municipalities they were
23 in power.
24 Q. Weapons were handed over to the TO. Do you know what happened
25 afterwards to the weapons that were under JNA control in the coming
2 A. Well, the JNA mobilised the reserve force, and quite a bit of
3 this weaponry was distributed to those who had supported the JNA and
4 united Yugoslavia, and for the most part those were the Serbs in Bosnia.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this document
6 please be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit?
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not object.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D238 becomes Exhibit D152,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D152 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Could we have 65 ter 00439, please.
14 Q. It's a brief document. Could you please have a look, and then
15 I'm going to put some questions to you.
16 A. Could you zoom in a bit? I cannot see it properly.
17 Q. So the Public Security Station of the Serbian municipality of
18 Skelani is requesting from the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic
19 of the Serb People in BiH -- this is a request for some equipment,
21 Tell me, since you headed the police station in Zvornik for a
22 while, what about your Public Security Station; was this the route that
23 you followed when you needed materiel and equipment or did you take a
24 different course?
25 A. Well, from the moment when Republika Srpska was established and
1 from the moment when the JNA withdrew from the territory of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, this was the way in which supplies were provided to
3 the police. Up until then, we tried to make do in different ways.
4 Q. Over here, they are asking that this request be forwarded to the
5 federal SUP, so they are asking their ministry that the ministry ask the
6 federal SUP for all of this. Was this the route that was taken, to the
7 best of your knowledge, in the territory of your municipality as well?
8 A. Yes. While the federal SUP was still in existence, that was
9 standing practice.
10 Q. An inspector in the federal SUP, Zivorad Petrovic, is referred to
11 here. Do you perhaps know the man?
12 A. No.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
14 please be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit, although it is
15 from the Prosecution 65 ter list.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I've been able to verify the provenance
17 and have no objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3439 becomes Exhibit D153, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D153 is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Yesterday, you said to us, Witness, that Zuca and Marko Pavlovic
23 were arrested at the same time. To the best of your knowledge, was the
24 reason for the arrest of these two persons the same --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
1 question. The microphone was off.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, could you repeat the last part of your
3 question, since your microphone was switched off for the very end.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.
5 So the question is whether this witness knows whether these two
6 persons were arrested at the same time and for the same reason, or does
7 he not have any knowledge about this.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know they were arrested at the
9 same time, but I don't know whether they were arrested for the same
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Could we now please have a look at -- 2846 is the Prosecution's
13 65 ter number. Could we please have a look at the first page of that
14 document only.
15 It's a very brief document. Please have a look at it. I'm sure
16 that you've seen it before.
17 Q. My question is whether the volunteer units, including Zuca's unit
18 in the territory of the municipality of Zvornik at the time, were
19 financed by the provisional municipal authorities in Zvornik.
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the first page
22 of this document please be admitted? This document consists of several
23 pages, but I think that only page 1 is relevant. It's another
24 Prosecution document from their 65 ter list.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would object to the compound nature
2 of the last question. The document refers to Zuca, and then the question
3 was whether volunteer units, including Zuca. I would ask that both be
4 explored with greater precision.
5 With respect to the admission of this actual document, the
6 Prosecution has verified its provenance and does not object to its
7 admission now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you can ask the question in
9 re-examination, if you wish to do so. I asked for any objections. No
11 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: The first page of document 2846 becomes
13 Exhibit D154, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D154 is admitted into evidence.
15 Is there any need that this first page to be up-loaded separately
16 from -- Mr. Petrovic, could you take care of that?
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution believes that the Chamber should
20 have the entire document before it is -- I'm sorry, but I wasn't clear
21 about that before.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any problem with the entire document, including the
23 cover page, Mr. Petrovic?
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I don't want
2 to encumber you with facts that are of no great relevance for these
3 proceedings. But if this is the Prosecutor's wish, I don't have a
4 problem with that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the whole of the document is admitted. That's
6 a 21-page document up-loaded in e-court.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, the provisional municipal authorities financed Zuca's
10 unit; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We also have the Pivarski unit, then Gogic's unit. Were they
13 also financed by the provisional municipal authorities?
14 A. All the volunteer units were financed by them.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can we now have a look at 2D332. This is a Defence document from
17 the Defence 65 ter list.
18 Q. Please have a look at this document very briefly.
19 First of all, tell us, please, whether you know of the
20 Igor Markovic Unit. What is that?
21 A. That is a unit that was Zuca's unit until he got killed.
22 Q. Tell us, please, it's not very clear, who got killed, Zuca or
23 Igor Markovic? Just tell us that.
24 A. Igor Markovic was killed, and then Zuca's unit was named after
25 Igor Markovic.
1 Q. Do you know who Lieutenant-Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic is?
2 A. Yes, that is a man who was commander of the Zvornik Brigade for a
3 certain period of time.
4 Q. Tell us, please, does this correspond to your knowledge as well,
5 the content of this document, that is, that the army is providing fuel to
6 Zuca's unit for their vehicles, the unit that was then called
7 "Igor Markovic"?
8 A. All of these volunteer units were placed under the command of the
9 JNA and later under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. And then the JNA -- or, rather, the Army of Republika Srpska
11 supplied them with materiel and other resources, including fuel, as we
12 can see on the basis of this document as well?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
15 please be admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit?
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm unable to verify the provenance of
17 the document. I would ask it be marked for identification, and then
18 we'll seek to speak with Mr. Petrovic during the break.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, this document should be assigned an
20 MFI number, which will be ...?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D332 becomes Exhibit D155, marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Witness, if I understood your testimony correctly, your first
1 contact and first request for assistance was addressed to
2 Radmilo Bogdanovic and the Parliamentary Committee for Serbs Outside
3 Serbia; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And Radmilo Bogdanovic was the person who told you to communicate
6 with Radoslav Kostic; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what did you infer on that basis? What was the relationship
9 between Bogdanovic and Kostic?
10 A. Well, in view of the position that Bogdanovic had in the Assembly
11 as an MP and as the head of the Committee for the Position of Serbs
12 Outside Serbia, it was my understanding that they knew each other well
13 and that they were on good terms.
14 Q. In 1992 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue: The document which was MFI'd,
16 that is, about the fuel, the translation is not only the page we find in
17 the original, but the translation also deals with handwritten text on the
18 back of the document. Now, that appears not, as far as I can see, in the
19 original which is up-loaded, which is a one-page document. So,
20 therefore, I'm wondering, where the translation covers more than the
21 original, what you intend to do.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my intention is to
1 establish whether we can find the back of the original and then up-load
2 all of that into e-court, and then we tender it. This is the only
3 document that I found, but there must be this other page as well. I do
4 apologise to everyone in the courtroom because of that. This was an
5 oversight on my part. But I have no problem with the content.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Witness, in 1991 and 1992, you knew that Radoslav Kostic was
9 commander of the police station in Darda and Baranja.
10 A. I saw him several times there in Darda. I even went to his home.
11 Q. Is it correct that only in 1994 or 1995, you found out that
12 Radoslav Kostic also worked in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.
13 A. I learned that sometime towards the end of the war. I don't know
14 whether it was 1994 or 1995. I'm not sure.
15 Q. Tell us, this weaponry from Baranja, do you know who it belonged
16 to, whose weapons these were?
17 A. These were weapons of the JNA that they had left from the days of
18 Yugoslavia; that is, the Territorial Defence of Baranja.
19 Q. And during this period of time that you are talking about, these
20 weapons belonged to the Army of the Republic of the Serb Krajina; right.
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. Do you know what sort of role was played by Marko Pavlovic in the
23 territory of Baranja at a time when combat operations took place there.
24 A. As far as I remember, he was the TO commander for the town of
25 Darda or the town of Beli Manastir, I'm not sure, although I think it was
2 Q. In your statement, you say that around 300 pieces of weaponry had
3 arrived from Baranja.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us what sort of weapons these were?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Where, Mr. Petrovic.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will tell you now, Your Honour.
9 I have marked as page 41, though I don't think that's the right
10 pagination. I will find it as soon as I can. I don't think it will help
11 you if I tell you that it's page 41.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, the Chamber was never provided with
13 the testimony in the second case. So since we always very much
14 appreciate to follow closely your questions, is there any way that you'd
15 provide us with the relevant pages.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I can be of assistance now and ask
17 that 65 ter 5865 - that's the Prosecution's 65 ter document - be called,
18 paragraph 40, the last two sentences of paragraph 40.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about the testimony in the second
20 case or are we talking about the witness's statement.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are referring to
22 the witness's statement. As for his evidence in the other case, I will
23 have a look at that over the break. But he also refers to it in his
24 statement. That's why I referred you to it. I will do my best to find
25 it in the transcript as well.
1 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. Petrovic, so that we are able to
3 Yes, a reference is made to 200 to 300 guns and ammunition. I
4 found it.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, it had to do with old M-48 rifles that were sent to you
8 from Baranja; is that right?
9 A. Well, yes, these were mostly dysfunctional weapons that we had to
10 repair. They were outdated.
11 Q. Can we be of assistance to the Trial Chamber? What sort of a
12 rifle is an M-48, if you know?
13 A. Well, the simplest form, and it's a make that's over 60 years
15 Q. Thank you. Mention is made in your statements of the lorry that
16 was picked up from the parking-lot next to the Belgrade fair. When you
17 went to pick up the truck, did you find anyone there?
18 A. No, we didn't. We had agreed with Kostic that we should leave
19 a lorry full of fuel and some flour, and that there would be individuals
20 coming to pick it up in the afternoon. It is a great distance, after
21 all, 300 kilometres from Belgrade.
22 Q. As far as you know, they drove the lorry to Baranja, or were the
23 weapons obtained from a different source, or you don't know.
24 A. Well, I didn't know at the time. I know from the subsequent
25 stories from individuals who loaded weapons. I have -- some of my
1 employees, current employees, are from Baranja. So they went to Belgrade
2 and then -- took the lorry there, and then went for the load to Baranja,
3 to Darda.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us now go back to the early days of the conflict
5 in your town.
8 A. Yes. Because of the tense situation - the Muslims had taken over
9 the entire Zvornik, including the police station - we left the station
10 and went in the direction of Karakaj. This was one of the instructions
11 which had to do with the Cutileiro Plan that had been signed by Karadzic,
12 Izetbegovic, and I think it was Mate Boban on behalf of the Croats,
13 whereby the police force in the BH was supposed to be divided. Then we
14 received a dispatch from the assistant minister of the interior,
15 Momcilo Mandic, who was the highest-ranking Serbian in the Ministry of
16 the Interior of the Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. When they took over the police station, did the Muslim members of
18 the police force distribute any weapons, and to whom, if they did.
19 A. Well, yes. We went to see them on a couple of occasions later
20 on, because we wanted to negotiate, and then we realised that they had
21 distributed all of the weapons that belonged to the reserve force, I
22 think it was around 400 pieces of weaponry. They had even recruited
23 criminals who had been serving long-term sentences. They dressed them in
24 uniforms and formed a reserve force out of them overnight.
25 Q. When the Muslims took over the police station, what became of the
1 Serbian population in the town of Zvornik?
2 A. By the time the Serbs had left Zvornik, they were either in the
3 surrounding Serbian villages or in Serbia.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'd like to ask you about the role of the
5 JNA at the time.
6 Yesterday, you told us that there was a number of
7 strategically-important locations of the JNA in the municipality of
8 Zvornik; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As the JNA grew out into the Army of Yugoslavia, did the
11 locations carry the same significance as before, in your opinion.
12 A. The JNA was present there until the time when the VRS was formed,
13 at which point the VRS took over their role. I think it was on the 28th
14 of May or June. I'm not sure.
15 Q. I was asking you specifically about the locations we referred to,
16 the hydroelectric plant in Zvornik, the bridges there. Were these
17 locations protected by, initially, the JNA, and then later on by the VRS,
18 because of their strategic importance?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it true that when the JNA withdrew, some of the units of the
21 VJ took part in the actions in the municipality of Zvornik, such as, for
22 instance, the unit from Valjevo, under the command of Solaja, and some
23 other units.
24 A. I only know of this one instance which involved the unit from
25 Valjevo. I know about this because we, as the Executive Board, which I
1 was a functionary of at the time, paid them a reimbursement for -- or
2 some sort of a salary for one month. When that was, exactly, I don't
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown
5 Prosecution 65 ter 4012.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- perhaps, when waiting for this, could you
7 give us the name of one of the criminals which you say were dressed in
8 uniforms? Could you give us one example of such a criminal.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Behluli. I don't know his last
10 name. He was one of the well-known criminals. Then Musadik Halilovic.
11 I don't remember, given the time that has elapsed.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What's the basis for your information that they are
13 criminals? Are you aware of any convictions or --
15 station, and I know for a fact that they had been convicted for serious
16 crimes, such as murder.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
18 One other question. You were talking about the take-over of the
19 police station, but you also referred to the take-over of the whole of
20 Zvornik. Could you tell us exactly what you meant by that? Was that a
21 take-over of Zvornik by force, or what exactly did you mean when you said
22 that Zvornik was taken over, including the police station.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the political divisions
24 that existed at the time, as soon as the Muslims took over the police
25 station, the Serbs did not feel secure there and simply left Zvornik.
1 Thus, it was solely Muslims who stayed behind in Zvornik.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what you're referring to is that when the
3 police station was taken over, that the Serbs then left, so that there
4 was no specific combat or armed conflict, it's the result of taking over
5 the police station that the Serbs left, and that's what you refer to as
6 the take-over of Zvornik?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We withdrew to the
8 neighbouring place called Karakaj, which had a Serb majority. We set up
9 a police station there, and the Serbian population followed suit. They
10 also left Zvornik.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, therefore, entire Zvornik means the town
12 of Zvornik; is that not the whole of the --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the town, not the
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, please have a look at the document. It's a document
19 issued by the Command of the 1st Military District, whereby the OG Drina
20 is ordered to secure all the facilities on the two banks of the
21 Drina River all the way to the River Sava, excluding Bijeljina, Modranj
22 village, Vitnica village, et cetera. Tell us, do the contents of this
23 order reflect what you, yourself, were able to see; i.e., that the JNA or
24 the VJ secured the strategic locations along the length of the
25 Drina River?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the document be
3 exhibited as -- be admitted as a Defence exhibit? It is a Prosecution
4 65 ter document.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 4012 becomes Exhibit D156, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D156 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness, I'd now like to ask you about Marko Pavlovic, i.e.,
11 Branko Popovic.
12 Tell us, first, on what sort of terms was Pavlovic with members
13 of the JNA, primarily officers, if you know?
14 A. What I concluded, based on my acquaintance with him, was that he
15 was on excellent terms, friendly terms, with some of the most senior
16 officers, including generals.
17 Q. Can you tell us -- can you give us an illustration?
18 A. Well, I know that he was on excellent terms with
19 General Jankovic, who was the commander of the Tuzla Corps, and with some
20 other generals who were on the General Staff, whose names I can't recall
21 at present. I know that I was present on a couple of occasions when he
22 was engaged in telephone conversations with them.
23 Q. Do you know anything about his relationship with Colonel -- do
24 you know about his relationship between Pavlovic and General Dubajic?
25 A. Well, yes, I know that they did have an excellent relationship
1 and they would socialise with him.
2 Q. So he had excellent -- an excellent relationship with
3 General Jankovic, who was the commander of the Tuzla Corps, and with
4 Dubajic, who was his chief of security?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At some point in one of your statements, I also read that
7 Pavlovic was on excellent terms with the chief of the General Staff,
8 Panic; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right. At least that's how he represented things.
10 He would boast about it. And I did see them together on one occasion.
11 Q. Do you know if Pavlovic turned to these senior officers for
12 assistance, either in materiel or in combat assistance?
13 A. Yes. This was the case before the conflicts broke out, when he
14 requested to be given a materiel assistance, and when the fighting broke
15 out, when he would ask for assistance in combat.
16 Q. Did Pavlovic at any point in time contact any of these officers
17 in your presence?
18 A. Well, I do seem to recall that we were in the Crisis Staff at
19 some point when he placed a telephone call. It had to do with materiel
20 and equipment which subsequently arrived.
21 Q. Did Marko Pavlovic ever call anyone from the MUP of the Republic
22 of Serbia or any other service of the MUP of Serbia?
23 A. Well, I don't know that sort of knowledge. He stayed in Zvornik
24 for a while. We socialised privately. We knew the man who was from
25 across the street, the commander of the station and a person from
2 Q. Did he call anyone from the DB of Serbia in your presence?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Please have a look at 2D329. It is a certificate of gratitude
5 issued to Branislav Pavlovic for exceptional commitment, dedication and
6 co-operation in offering assistance to soldiers, TO members and the
7 Serbian people exposed to Ustasha terror and genocide, for the Military
8 Post 5055, Colonel Radoslav Blazic. The date is the 25th of March, 1992.
9 Is this certificate consistent with what you knew of the
10 relationship Pavlovic had with the JNA at the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P1063, page 5. I'm
13 sorry, page 6, please. Page 6, section VII, Roman numeral VII.
14 Further, a bit further, please. One page ahead in B/C/S, please.
15 In e-court, it is page 8. Sorry, page 9.
16 I would just like to establish a parallel with the previous
17 document. I'm sorry that this has taken a while.
18 So number 26 says:
19 "The command of the defence of the city of Belgrade is Military
20 Post Code 5055."
21 Q. Do you see that, Witness?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to
24 show you -- or, rather, I wanted us to identify the military post code.
25 Excuse me.
1 It seems that there is no English translation of this document.
2 The document has not been translated in full, apparently. It is a
3 Prosecution document, and, therefore, I am so surprised that that is the
4 case. However, I wanted to indicate what can be seen here in the Serbian
5 version. It's a Prosecution document, a Theunens document. We are going
6 to up-load the entire translation that we are going to ask for.
7 Q. Witness, could you please read point 26 for us? And we are going
8 to present it in an appropriate manner to the Trial Chamber.
9 A. "The command of the defence of the city of Belgrade, 5055,
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this document
12 2D329 which I showed a few moments ago, that certificate of gratitude,
13 could it please be admitted as a Defence exhibit? As for this document,
14 we are going to supply the missing translation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first have a look at the previous document
16 you referred to. Could we have it on the screen again; that is, the
17 certificate of gratitude.
18 Yes. If I look at the transcript, Mr. Petrovic, you said:
19 "I'd like to ask you about Marko Pavlovic, i.e., Branko Popovic."
20 Now, this document is about Branislav Pavlovic, which does not
21 fit with either of the two names you gave us.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the
23 only explanation I can offer is the following: He used the names
24 Pavlovic, Popovic, Branko, Marko, alternately, so it must be a
25 combination of those two names. However, we can investigate that.
1 So could it please be marked for identification before we've
2 looked into the matter and before we're in a position to give you an
3 explanation? Then it's more appropriate.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could be of assistance.
6 The same thing occurred to me, I'd never seen the combination of
7 the first and the second name. But when we checked the provenance of it,
8 we find that it was given to the Office of the Prosecutor by
9 Branko Popovic in an interview with an investigator of the OTP on the
10 12th of March, 2003.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It was given by Branko -- by whom exactly did you
13 MR. GROOME: Well, the person -- the two names that I have heard
14 this person use is "Marko Pavlovic" and "Branko Popovic." Just one
15 second, Your Honour.
16 The name that he represented as his name to the investigator who
17 interviewed him was "Branislav Pavlovic."
18 JUDGE ORIE: So "Branko," is that short for Branislav," or is
19 it --
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is not
21 exactly the usual thing, but yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we now have three first names and two
23 family names, and we find a combination of all of it, and handwritten
24 portions not being translated.
25 No objections, Mr. Groome?
1 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, this --
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D329 becomes Exhibit D157,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D157 is admitted into evidence.
6 I add to this that there was no objection from the Prosecution.
7 Nevertheless, in evaluating the document, of course, we cannot just
8 ignore that there is still a bit of unexplained background of this
9 document and that not all of the handwritten text - I've got no idea what
10 it is - is translated.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 I believe that this would be the right time for the break, so I
14 suggest that we do take the planned break now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 At the same time, I'd like to take you back to P1063, which was
17 admitted into evidence, but apparently without a full translation. I
18 blame myself for not having noticed that at the time, but sometime I
19 expect the parties to do that first. I suggest that it will be re-MFI'd
20 until we have a full translation, even if that would not be a copy of all
21 the names, because I saw there were long lists, but that at least that
22 it's clear what these lists are and that it's not just one page
23 translated and other pages not. That seems not to be an appropriate way
24 of dealing with these kind of documents. Again, the Chamber is not
25 insisting at this moment on every single name and long lists to be
1 re-typed by interpreters, but at least it should be a clear coverage, in
2 the English language, of the whole of the document.
3 P1063 is, therefore -- the status of the document is changed and
4 marked for identification.
5 Mr. Groome, when will we hear from you on P1063?
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, after the break, if that's possible.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether you have a translation
8 already by then, but, yes, we would like to.
9 Then we'll take a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes past
11 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber was informed that P1063 needs further
14 attention before it can be admitted again.
15 Mr. Petrovic, are you ready to continue?
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 I would just like to point something out in relation to P1063;
18 that it was a document that was used when witness -- expert witness
19 Theunens testified, and the Prosecution pointed out that they had
20 translated only those portions which are of relevance to them. So that
21 is the core of the matter. We are going to resolve it, so I want to make
22 it clear at this point as well. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 I'm going to continue now.
24 Could we please have P1394 on our screens.
25 Q. Witness, would you please look at this document - it's very
1 brief - and tell me whether you know who Slobodan Vasilic is?
2 A. Yes, Commander Vasilic was commander of the Zvornik Brigade after
4 Q. It says here that Marko Pavlovic is deployed in the Serbian Army?
5 A. Yes --
6 Q. The document bears the date of the 22nd of August, 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The facts from this document, do they correspond to what you knew
9 about Marko Pavlovic's position and deployment at the relevant time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Witness, is it correct that Biljana Plavsic was in Zvornik a few
12 days before the conflict, a day or two before the conflict?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it correct that a meeting was held with her, it was a meeting
15 of the Crisis Staff and the municipal leadership with her, and that you
16 attended part of the meeting?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you hear Plavsic ask at that meeting to have Arkan called to
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know at that point in time about the relationship between
22 Arkan and Plavsic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. At this meeting with Plavsic before the conflict, was Peja in
25 attendance as well?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it correct that Kostic conveyed information to you to the
3 effect that Arkan was in Bijeljina?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it correct that Kostic had not told you or ordered you to
6 communicate with Arkan, he simply conveyed to you the information that
7 Arkan was in Bijeljina?
8 A. Well, we called this Parliamentary Committee for Serbs Outside
9 Serbia, and they instructed us to get in touch with Kostic. Kostic told
10 us that it was best for us to try to contact Arkan because he was in
11 Bijeljina, and perhaps he could help us.
12 Q. Is it true that Kostic told you several times --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Is it correct that Kostic told you very bad things about Arkan
16 several times?
17 A. Yes.
19 any dealings with Arkan, that one should stay away from Arkan?
20 A. Yes. He said very, very bad things about him and his volunteer
22 Q. When you came to Bijeljina, did you have the impression that it
23 had already been agreed somewhere that Arkan was supposed to go to
25 A. Well, I informed him about the situation in Zvornik, and he said
1 that this Pejic, this associate of his, would go to Zvornik along with
2 some 20 men. Now, whether that had been planned at a higher level, that
3 is something I cannot claim with any certainty.
4 Q. So it is possible that Arkan came to Zvornik on the basis of your
5 request? I mean, I'm not saying that it's your personal request. It was
6 the request of the Crisis Staff, wasn't it?
7 A. My opinion is that that is what tipped the scales. Because the
8 situation in Zvornik changed from one hour to the other, he was not aware
9 of it. I told him about it, and I don't think that he could have had a
10 plan from earlier on.
11 Q. Thank you. Did Plavsic come after the take-over of power in the
12 town of Zvornik, itself?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You testified at some point that that is where she encountered
15 Pejic and greeted him. What did this meeting between the two of them
16 look like when they first met?
17 JUDGE ORIE: "You testified at some point" -- could you please
18 allow the Chamber to follow what you're putting to the witness, that is?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Because earlier I had to establish that when you
21 referred to testimony, you were referring to testimony which was not in
22 evidence. Then you used the statement of the witness and introduced a
23 certain matter, which may appear in the testimony, which is not in
24 evidence but which at that time did not appear in the statement, so we'd
25 like to follow it very closely.
1 Could you tell us what "at some point" means here?
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will -- actually,
3 I'll give you all the references. I hesitate in doing so, because I
4 don't know what the fate of the previous testimonies is going to be.
5 First of all, as for Kostic's opinion about Arkan, it is
6 page 15033 in the testimony in Case number 2.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We don't have that. You should be aware of that. I
8 mean, we just haven't got it. No party tendered it. The only reason why
9 we know it's there, because Mr. Jordash asked it to be provided to the
10 witness to review it. But we want to follow the testimony in all
11 details, so references to the testimony in the second case, unless you
12 give us those pages, doesn't assist us.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from Case 2, 65 ter
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first ask Madam Registrar to make a
16 print-out, a hard copy, of the page Mr. Petrovic is referring to.
17 Yes, the first case, there we have the hard copies.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Case 1, encounter
21 between Pejic and Plavsic after the take-over of the town, page 45 in
22 e-court. I think that the Prosecution up-loaded the document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The testimony has received what exhibit
24 number, so that I can find it on my computer?
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] A moment, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, still -- I see she's still busy in
2 doing what you should have done, Mr. Petrovic; that is, giving us a hard
3 copy of the relevant page from the second case.
4 Now, for the first case, Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the 65 ter was 5870.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No number has been pre-assigned yet?
7 MR. GROOME: I'm not certain, but I can't recall that one has.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let me see whether I, nevertheless,
9 should be able to find it.
10 MR. GROOME: Those of us with hard copies, we would appreciate
11 the transcript page, if Mr. Petrovic could provide that.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 5870, page 45 in e-court.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not released in any way, then the Judges
15 have no access to 65 ter numbers, and that's rightly so because we are
16 supposed to look at the evidence, not at the total series of up-loaded
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I assist you with the page
19 number, Your Honour, in Case 2; I mean, the page of the transcript?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, now we have hard copies.
22 Please proceed, Mr. --
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness, what was the manner of the greetings exchanged between
25 Plavsic and Pavlovic?
1 A. Well, it was cordial, and they kissed.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Can you tell us what precisely is Kula Grad?
5 A. It's a neighbourhood on an elevation, and it is part of Zvornik.
6 Q. Can you tell us what the strategic importance of Kula Grad is for
7 the town of Zvornik and the area?
8 A. Well, it's an area overlooking the rest of Zvornik.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 65 ter
11 Q. Witness, have you had a look at the document?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As you can see, this is an order issued by Savo Jankovic, major
14 general, commander of the 17th Tuzla Corps?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you know if JNA units participated in the activities aimed at
17 capturing Kula Grad?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did JNA units fire from artillery weapons from this bank of the
20 Drina as part of the activities to seize Kula Grad?
21 A. I know that there was artillery fire, but I don't know the
22 direction it came from.
23 Q. Who did the artillery belong to?
24 A. The JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague has
1 just reminded me that we tendered this document on the list of documents
2 we produced in relation to Expert Witness Theunens, so there's no need
3 for me to tender it again, since it was discussed at that point.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. Perhaps it's important for Madam Registrar to
5 know that this is dealt with again, that we have revisited this document
6 today. That's in the internal systems.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2D330.
9 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to leap up but I just noticed Your Honour
10 looking at the time: Perhaps, for Your Honours' information, I think
11 there's a general agreement we're not going to finish today. Mr. Groome
12 would like to have half an hour, and I think with having to try to deal
13 with admissibility of the Case number 2 transcripts and with the
14 cross-examination I'd like to do, I think it's extremely unlikely that
15 we'd finish today. So I --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the Chamber will do everything to
17 have an extra session tomorrow morning at 9.00.
18 Just for the parties to know, Madam Registrar, if you could
19 convey this message to CLSS. We were already informed that
20 practicalities would not oppose against having an extra session tomorrow
22 At the same time, Mr. Petrovic, you gave us now the sources. You
23 did ask the witness one question, whether he was warned against Arkan and
24 that, You shouldn't have any business with him. I mean, if you put that
25 question to the witness, it's totally irrelevant to point at another
1 place where the witness said the same thing. If you just had asked the
2 witness, without referring to any earlier testimony, then we would have
3 saved five to ten minutes and a lot of efforts, which finally result in
4 knowing that he said the same in the other case. So one and the same.
5 You asked questions about how Pejic greeted Mrs. Plavsic. There,
6 again, what's the use of referring to evidence we do not have, and then
7 we have to ask -- since you're referring to it, then we have to look at
8 it, and then the only thing to find is that there were warm greetings and
9 that they embraced each other. If you would not have referred to any of
10 the earlier evidence at some point, then the whole problem would not have
11 been there. But as soon as you start referring to other material, please
12 be aware that if the Chamber hasn't it available, it will take care that
13 it will be available, at quite some expense of efforts, and totally
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully accept your
17 criticism, and I will make sure that I proceed differently.
18 Q. Witness, please have a look at the document. It's a daily report
19 of the Operational Centre of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the
20 SFRY for the day of the 12th of April. Please look at the first two
21 paragraphs only. Therein, losses are listed, losses, apparently, of "own
22 forces," that's what it would appear, and it reads losses of two members
23 of Arkan's men, a member of the TO, whereas, actually -- so three members
24 of the Arkan's group were killed and one TO member and one lady doctor
25 were wounded.
1 As far as you remember, the Arkan's group acted as part of the
2 JNA, in other words, as part of the Armed Forces of the SFRY in this
3 period that we're referring to, 1992; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tender this
6 document into evidence and wish that it be admitted as a Defence exhibit.
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the document was received from the
8 Government of Serbia. The Prosecution has no objection. We are unsure
9 whether it is the subject of an application for protective measures. We
10 believe it is not, but cannot verify that at the moment.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we provisionally put it under seal.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 2D330 becomes Exhibit D158, under seal,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D158 is admitted under seal.
16 And, Mr. Groome, you're invited within the next five days to
17 inform the Chamber, through the Registrar, whether the document needs to
18 be under seal or not.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, have you heard of the case involving four individuals
21 who were arrested in Zvornik shortly before the outbreak of hostilities?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know who these four individuals were?
24 A. I know that it involved Zuco, his brother Legija, and another
1 Q. Do you know the individual by the name of Fadil Mujic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who was he?
4 A. Fadil Mujic was a colleague of mine in the SUP. He was the head
5 of the Crime Department within the police.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, page 10, "Arrest of four Serbs,"
7 paragraph 54, a chief of the Criminal police department was Fadil Mujic.
8 What's the use of asking this again? Are you aware of the arrest of four
9 Serbs, that covers a whole of a paragraph. Why not focus on what you
10 want to know in addition, because apparently you are happy with the
11 answer that Fadil Mujic was the chief of the Criminal Police Department?
12 So why ask again?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your Honour,
14 because I don't know what the fate of these documents will be. We have
15 challenged the documents and the way in which they were drafted, as well
16 as the approach taken through 92 ter, but these are only two introductory
17 questions that I put. I have two or three more questions, and I will
18 finish then.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What the fate will be of the 92 ter application
20 depends on what is shown during the remainder of the cross-examination.
21 Now, asking questions and being satisfied with exactly the same answers
22 as we find in a document might earlier -- might, rather, support a 92 ter
23 application than challenge such an application. Could you please try to
24 limit the number of introductory questions, unless they are really
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness, did Mujic tell you that he received two phone calls from
4 Colonel Boskovic from Belgrade on the issue of these four arrested
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did he tell you that Colonel Boskovic said that two of the four
8 arrested were military policemen?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did Mujic tell you that General Jankovic from Tuzla also called
11 him with a request that the two individuals be released?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were both of them, Colonel Boskovic and General Jankovic, only
14 interested in this individual, Bogdanovic, and Legija?
15 A. No, they were interested in all four of them.
16 Q. Were these individuals at some point released from detention in
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know who Colonel Boskovic was?
20 A. I don't know. I know that he was a senior officer of the JNA.
21 Q. Is that Nedeljko Boskovic, who was the senior officer of the
22 Security Service of the Yugoslav People's Army?
23 A. Yes, I did read in newspapers that Nedeljko Boskovic was a senior
24 officer of the JNA.
25 Q. I will now ask you about Vojislav Jekic. Did this person go
1 around telling everyone that he was a member of State Security?
2 A. I have a very bad opinion of him, and the man is deceased. Well,
3 he's the worst sort of person I ever met. He was the sort of person who
4 would go around -- his tombstone is destroyed every week, so can I tell
5 you anything more than that? It happens only to the worst possible
7 Q. Tell us, please, why do you think that this is the worst person
8 you met in your life?
9 A. He hails from Zvornik, and --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Why not get an answer to your first question,
11 Mr. Petrovic?
12 Your answer was -- your question was:
13 "Did Vojislav Jekic go around telling everyone that he was a
14 member of the State Security?"
15 That was the question, and I wouldn't mind to receive an answer
16 to that question.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It seemed to me, Your Honour, that
18 I had heard the answer in B/C/S, but now I see that it's not in the
20 Q. Can you tell us -- can you answer that question?
21 A. Yes, he did go around saying that he was a member of the State
22 Security of Serbia, an official of the State Security of Serbia.
23 Q. Could you tell us now, very briefly, what your response to the
24 second question would be, in relation to your opinion about Jekic?
25 A. He hails from Zvornik, and he appeared when the war started.
1 However, very soon we found out that he was just a wheeling-dealing sort
2 of person. I don't know what the right medical term would be for this,
3 but he obsesses. I think that you can check this with other people, but
4 whatever this man ever said was a lie. Otherwise, this is my personal
5 opinion, but everybody in Zvornik thinks that he is a very, very bad
6 person. He pursued his personal interests, and he was prepared to do
7 anything for the sake of those personal interests.
8 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would just like to go back to something, a
9 question that I omitted, the action concerning Kula Grad. Do you know
10 that JNA Officer Stupar, with his soldiers from the 72nd Brigade, also
11 participated in the activities that had to do with the taking of
12 Kula Grad?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you only know of Franko Simatovic,
15 Frenki, from the media?
16 A. Yesterday, when the Judge cautioned me about these people, I
17 never saw these people before. I have never seen them in my life before
18 this, and so I was interested in seeing them. I saw Mr. Stanisic a few
19 times in the newspapers, but I never saw this other gentleman's
20 photograph, even. So then perhaps I was a bit too interested yesterday,
21 and that's why I was looking at him so much.
22 Q. On that basis, I conclude that you know nothing about the role of
23 Franko Simatovic, Frenki, with regard to developments in Zvornik or
24 anywhere else.
25 A. I first heard of him when the indictment was issued against him,
1 and that's when I saw.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
3 Just a moment, please, Your Honours.
4 Q. Witness, when the town of Zvornik was taken, was there a small
5 celebration that took place of any kind?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us whether that celebration was attended by
8 Colonel Milosevic, the then-commander of the JNA from Romanija?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did Arkan attend the celebration?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Your Honours, I have no further questions.
14 Thank you, Witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
16 Mr. Jordash, are you ready to --
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. If I may just get the lectern.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, the furniture has to be moved.
19 Nowadays, it's plug-and-play, but the plug-in seems to be not
21 MR. JORDASH: I think we'll use the old microphone. Thank you.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. May I quickly ask you about a subject which, in some ways, comes
1 before I get to the substance of your evidence.
2 Is it right that after the end of the war, the Kula video of the
3 centre involving the group the Red Berets was played very frequently on
4 the TV in Serbia?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when I say "frequently," I mean hundreds of times. It was
7 something that the population of Serbia were able to watch hundreds of
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that we be a bit more
12 specific after the time-frame? "After the war" includes all the way up
13 to today and is a rather extensive period.
14 MR. JORDASH:
15 Q. Do you recall when you first watched the video or the programme?
16 A. I don't remember, but I know that it was broadcast on TV very
18 Q. Would it have been in the late 1990s, early 2000?
19 A. I think that that would be right, but I really do not remember.
20 Q. Did you watch it before you actually spoke to the Prosecution,
21 before your involvement with the ICTY?
22 A. I think the answer would be, Yes, but I'm not sure. I do not
24 Q. Could I try to trigger your memory. Was it in the news in 2002?
25 A. Yes, yes, I think that is right.
1 Q. Would you agree with me that when you were interviewed by the
2 Prosecution, you had, in your possession, many facts which came from the
3 watching of that video?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that many of your ex-colleagues,
6 colleagues from the time of the event in Zvornik and so on, would also
7 have been in possession of those facts derived from the video?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, you spoke yesterday about the pressure. And I don't want to
10 mis-characterise what you said, but did I understand you correctly that
11 you, yourself, felt pressure, when speaking to the Prosecution, to
12 provide the type of details that you thought they wanted to have?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And am I correct that in relation to -- in relation to -- well,
15 let me start that again.
16 When you were interviewed by the Prosecution, were you aware that
17 they were interested in details concerning the alleged role of the
18 State Security in the conflict?
19 A. Yes, they were interested in that.
20 Q. Were you aware, when they interviewed you, that they were seeking
21 to prosecute members of the State Security, including the two accused we
22 have here today?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you aware that they were seeking to prosecute members of the
25 Serbian Ministry of the Interior at any point when you were being
1 interviewed by the OTP?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You spoke yesterday about -- or you gave evidence yesterday
4 about --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, when we're talking about interviews,
6 just for the Chamber's information, what interviews are you talking
7 about? Of course, we have a statement of 2008, but it seems to me as if
8 you're referring to earlier interviews.
9 MR. JORDASH: Well, I was --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I my be wrong, but --
11 MR. JORDASH: I was putting the matter globally just to see if
12 the witness had any recollection or --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, the Chamber's only informed to
14 a limited extent about all kind of interviews, and if what you're doing,
15 if you are asking questions apparently to demonstrate that answers may
16 have been influenced by the knowledge of the witness, then, of course,
17 it's for us important to know where to find those answers where you
18 suggest they may have been influenced.
19 MR. JORDASH: Well, I don't have -- I have some specifics, but I
20 was seeking to find out just generally what the situation was with the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then you will understand that it's far more
23 difficult for us to follow any suggestion if we do not know on what
24 place, and when it was, and in what kind of answers it may have resulted
25 in. General knowledge is less of assistance than specific knowledge.
1 MR. JORDASH:
2 Q. Let me take you to the 2008 statement, Mr. Witness.
3 Perhaps we can have it up on the e-court.
4 Sorry, can I just have one moment, please.
5 5865, please.
6 Now, I want to understand a bit more about how this statement
7 came into being.
8 You told us yesterday that this statement -- if you look at the
9 screen so you understand what I'm talking about. This statement was
10 prepared by the Prosecution; correct? It was prepared from a collection
11 of previous statements or interviews you'd given; correct?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. You said yesterday that you'd been in a hurry at the time when it
14 was shown to you?
15 A. They read it out to me, and I signed it. However, I was not
16 given a copy then because we were in a hurry to catch a plane.
17 Q. So it was read out to you once or more than once?
18 A. Once, it was read out to me once.
19 Q. Did you feel you had adequate time to review it in that process
20 of having it read out to you once?
21 A. Well, there was as much time as there was.
22 Q. What -- did you listen to the detail, and did you, in your mind,
23 have an opportunity to review it during that process or not?
24 A. Well, there was a camera there. It was videotaped. It was also
25 recorded. There was an audio-recording, there was an interpreter, so we
1 worked along the way.
2 Q. If you'd been asked the same questions orally, would you have
3 given the same answers?
4 A. Well, it depends on the context. It depends on the context,
5 because this is just a small excerpt of the whole story in its entirety.
6 Q. So you would have given many more details if examined orally on
7 the same subjects?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And would you have expressed things differently if you'd been
10 asked questions orally on the subjects?
11 A. Well, certainly the context would have been a bit different.
12 Q. Would you agree that this statement is extremely generalised and
13 you would have liked to have given more specific answers and explained
14 what was in the statement?
15 A. Yes, certainly, with regard to certain things, further
16 clarification is needed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, perhaps to cut matters short: I
18 discussed with my colleagues whether it would not be good to have the
19 video and the audio in evidence so that the Chamber is able to verify for
20 itself to what extent the statement, as put on paper, reflects, and with
21 what accuracy, what the witness said during his interviews.
22 MR. JORDASH: The video and the audio of --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Of the interview the 16th and the 18th of December,
24 2008, if I'm not making any mistakes.
25 MR. JORDASH: The 15th and the 16th?
1 JUDGE ORIE: The 15th and the 16th, yes.
2 MR. JORDASH: Well, I will leave the matter there, then, if
3 that's Your Honours' decision.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would --
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then let me ask one question in relation to this.
7 Witness, when you were interviewed in December 2008, were you
8 able to phrase the answers as you wished, or were you cut short, or -- I
9 mean, you say, Well, a lot needed to have said in addition to what I
10 said. Is it your recollection that you were -- you were kept off from
11 telling further details or that you were not free to give the answers as
12 you wished?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, everything that is written here
14 is my statement. However, I'm saying this in order to create the right
15 picture. For example, if they asked me, Were people being armed in
16 Zvornik, I say, Yes. And then on the basis of that, they say, Only that?
17 Whereas I spoke about arming over an hour, and they just write it up in
18 two sentences. This statement does, for the most part, reflect the
19 essence of my statement fairly. However, further explanations and
20 clarifications are required for quite a few things.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now you tell us that you said far more during your
22 interview which was video-recorded. Do I understand your complaint to be
23 that the written version of your statement does not give the details and
24 the clarifications you gave orally, and that that's the reason why you
25 consider the written statement to be -- well, let's say, at least to be
1 far from what you would suggest would be the complete picture as you have
2 given in your interview? Is that correctly understood?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to answer. Quite
4 simply, it depends on the kind of picture one wants to create. I don't
5 know. This is the picture that the Prosecution wanted to paint, and that
6 would be it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take, then, the matters step by step.
8 I earlier asked you whether, during the interview, you were
9 prohibited or kept off from telling what you wanted to give as an answer.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not stopped by the
11 Prosecution from saying anything I wanted to.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you consider that you gave the explanations and
13 the clarifications during your interview, apart from whether it appears
14 on paper; yes or no?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you consider that what you gave as answers is not
17 reflected in the written statement in sufficient detail as you wished to
18 answer the questions?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The essence was presented here in
20 that statement. Now, if there is some details that should be explained,
21 here I am, and they can ask me what they're interested in.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But would we find further details in the interview,
23 itself, although not, as you said, put on paper?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if that were to be done, it
25 would not essentially change my statement.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the Chamber has no further questions in
3 this respect. And as I said before, if none of the parties will tender
4 the video-recording, then the Chamber will ask for it to be --
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, there might be some confusion, and
6 I think only the Prosecution can clear this up, and that's this: I'm not
7 sure if this statement is a compilation of the interview on the 15th and
8 16th of December or is, in fact, a statement which is a compilation of
9 conversations had on the 15th and 16th alongside the witness's suspect
10 interview. And the reason I say that is because the suspect interview
11 has many of the remarks to be found within this statement, and it -- the
12 general tenor of the interviews that -- sorry, the transcript from Case 1
13 and 2 is that the Prosecution are in those -- in that examination, and
14 the witness also is accepting that fact, that this statement is a
15 compilation of both the suspect interview and conversations held on the
16 15th and 16th.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I suggest that you first discuss this briefly
18 with Mr. Groome. Of course, the video-recording is about the 15th and
19 16th of December, 2008. I mean, we have had quite a bit of litigation on
20 that video, isn't it, although from a totally different angle. So,
21 therefore, I suggest that you briefly discuss that with Mr. Groome,
22 unless he could give us an answer right away.
23 MR. GROOME: I can, Your Honour.
24 And the first point is the Prosecution's intention to tender the
25 video as well as the actual transcript of everything that occurred during
1 that interview - it's all a matter of record - during redirect.
2 With respect to how that material came into being, the
4 to make a composite 92 ter statement. That statement included the
6 case. That was put together, and then it was gone over with the witness,
7 who made additional changes to it during that period in 2008. And that's
8 what we have.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And may I take it that the suspect interviews
10 have been recorded and transcribed as well?
11 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, and they are available for the
12 Chamber, if the Chamber wishes to view those as well.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, some questions are raised in
14 respect of the background. And then, of course, if these doubts, as
15 expressed by the Stanisic Defence, remain, then if the material is there,
16 there is a way of, well, going into it in some depth. I'm not saying
17 that you would cover everything, but at least there are opportunities to
18 further verify what is found in those materials which would fit the
19 suggestions you are implicitly making, Mr. Jordash. Therefore, the more
20 material we have, the better we may be able to assess any such
22 MR. JORDASH: And in that regard, Your Honour, may I ask that the
23 transcripts from Case 2 be similarly made exhibits?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As 92 ter or --
25 MR. JORDASH: If Your Honours are putting in the remainder
1 pursuant to 92 ter, then, yes, pursuant to 92 ter.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then, of course, the -- well, the witness
3 has reviewed the second set. We could ask him or perhaps ask him even to
4 do a bit more overnight, but -- Mr. Groome.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I rise simply to say the Prosecution is
6 not tendering the video and the transcript of the entire proceedings as
7 92 ter, but just as evidence for the Chamber to be able to evaluate the
8 92 ter statement, which is the underlying statement.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the problem is that if something is in
10 evidence, it's always -- it's not easy to say we'll use it as evidence
11 but only for the purposes of establishing that sheep are white or sheep
12 are black. That's -- evidence is evidence. And we do not know in
13 advance what we'll find there, although the clear purpose of looking at
14 it is to further explore matters which are raised in cross-examination.
15 MR. JORDASH: May I just have a moment. I just want to try to
16 consult with my colleague very briefly, please.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Meantime, I'll use the opportunity by telling the parties that it
20 is confirmed that the Registry units can support the session of tomorrow
21 morning, but that they would have been much like to have an indication of
22 the time that session would take, in order not to reserve unnecessarily
23 any human resources.
24 MR. JORDASH: I would, ideally, I think, need two more sessions
25 tomorrow to be able to complete, if I have to deal now with the Case 2,
1 which may take 20 minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you have to? You have chosen to.
3 MR. JORDASH: Well, yes --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. JORDASH: I have to, in that sense.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And you were aware, at the beginning of the
7 testimony of the witness, you had reviewed that material you had given to
8 the witness. But let's see how far we come tomorrow. Two sessions.
9 Mr. Groome, you need half an hour?
10 MR. GROOME: As it stands presently, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, we'll consider it. And whether you'll
12 get the two sessions, Mr. Jordash, also depends, as always, on the
13 efficiency of your cross-examination. And I'm not talking about the
14 content, but about how you use your time.
15 Please proceed, and I think we should take a break in
16 approximately five minutes from now.
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, would it be -- could I invite
18 Your Honours to take a break now, only so that I can discuss the issue --
19 our position in relation to the statements that Your Honours are
20 considering putting into evidence?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just to address you on P157 [sic], the
23 document that was provisionally placed under seal: We can affirm that
24 the Government of Serbia is not seeking protective measures for that
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, you are instructed to change
2 the status into public of P157.
3 We'll take the break now, and we'll --
4 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry. It's D157.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D157, yes. I also heard "P," but it's D157.
6 We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes to 6.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
10 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, may I briefly just indicate what our
11 position is concerning the material that gave rise to the 2008 statement.
12 I think we're in agreement with Mr. Groome that the evidence
13 should be before Your Honours, but not as a Rule 92 ter, but as evidence
14 which would allow Your Honours to consider whether, in the final
15 analysis, the evidence should be admitted pursuant to 92 ter, and for
16 that limited purpose only. And I raise that now, because if it's going
17 in as 92 ter, that obviously creates whole new pieces of evidence which
18 we have to, from the Defence perspective, deal with.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that point, and --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the Chamber will admit it as evidence,
22 not Rule 92 ter, and, therefore, not primarily focusing on the truth of
23 the content of that, because that's what we talk about, but we are
24 primarily interested in the background. Of course, we've not seen all
25 that material yet. But if that approach would change at any moment or if
1 you would be inclined to change that approach, we'll inform the parties,
2 and a fair opportunity will be given them to deal with it. But I do not
3 expect so, because it -- well, you've seen how we slowly approached this
4 moment and why the Chamber and at what moment the Chamber considered
5 having it admitted into evidence.
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Mr. Witness, I want to ask you now about your testimony in the
10 second case. You were given, I think two or three days ago, a DVD of
11 that testimony. Did you listen to it?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Did you listen to it with a view to reviewing it, to check its
15 A. Well, to remind myself of what it was that I said.
16 Q. Did you note any clarifications or did you have any
17 clarifications to make concerning that testimony?
18 A. Well, if you ask me, I will clarify certain matters further.
19 Q. Well, I'm -- did you take note of the clarifications you wanted
20 to make, if any?
21 A. I did not.
22 Q. Do you have a recollection of the clarifications you want to
24 A. That's the material I reviewed over the break yesterday, and
25 there were a few corrections that I gave.
1 Q. No, I think we're talking about two different things.
2 Yesterday, you looked at the 2008 statement; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Overnight, you looked at or listened to the testimony in Case 1;
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. I'm now focusing on the evidence in Case 2, which I understand
8 was given to you upon your arrival at the Court.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's keep that very -- the day before you came to
10 court, you told us that you received material from the driver, as you
11 said, at -- I think it was at 5.00 p.m. Did you review that material,
12 which is the recording of your testimony you've given in January of this
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I listened to it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's what Mr. Jordash is asking you about.
16 MR. JORDASH:
17 Q. And did you have any clarifications to make, or alterations, or
19 A. I don't know. It's my evidence.
20 Q. Did you agree with what -- did you agree with what you'd said on
21 those occasions while testifying in Case 2?
22 A. For the most part, yes.
23 Q. Were there any parts that you wanted to change?
24 A. I didn't pay that much attention to it, so I can't give you an
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, perhaps we start with the first
2 question, as I did a couple of times.
3 When reviewing that material, did you find anything where you
4 said, This is not right, this is not in accordance with what I then knew
5 or now know to be the truth?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer to the question whether you would want
8 to change anything, is that that you would consider to add something or
9 to clarify something, although you have no clear recollection of what you
10 actually wanted to further clarify or what you'd like to add any further?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Jordash, I take it that it would be
13 fair to give an additional opportunity to the witness to see whether he
14 comes up with anything, and perhaps this evening he could use that for
15 it. Time is limited, I know that, but he has reviewed it, and there's
16 nothing, as he said, really wrong or incorrect, but there may be matters
17 that you want to further clarify or whether he might want to add
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're invited to look at that again this
21 evening, Witness JF-026, and then to tell us tomorrow whether there are
22 any specific matters which you would like to further clarify or what you
23 would like to add. Is that clear?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you say, but I've
25 just told the section, too, that I'm travelling tomorrow. I won't be
1 here tomorrow. I can't be here tomorrow. It's been seven days that I've
2 been here, and I have certain commitments that cannot be postponed.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We have received that message, Witness JF-026. We
4 tried to do our utmost best to finish your testimony as soon as possible.
5 In view of the fact that you are not inclined to speak with the Office of
6 the Prosecution and in view of the fact that we spent quite a bit of time
7 on the way in which you communicated with the Victims and Witnesses
8 Section, making yourself available, spending a lot of time on that in
9 court, rather than to being able to settle these matters out of court,
10 this Chamber has decided that it wishes you to remain available and to
11 finish your testimony tomorrow. At what time that exactly will be
12 depends, to some extent, on the parties. Therefore, you are under an
13 order to appear again in court tomorrow morning.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I simply cannot honour
15 that, with all due respect. I have commitments that I have assumed. I
16 have to live by something. I have to make sure that I have my earnings.
17 And there is one place where I have to be tomorrow.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that. Had you raised this matter
19 any earlier than today with the Witnesses and Victims Section?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only today, upon learning that the
21 examination would be prolonged.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No date was set yet for it to end.
23 At the end of this session, I'll inform you about your position
24 as a witness, and I'll also inform you about possible consequences of not
25 obeying to an order of this Chamber.
1 Mr. Jordash, let's focus first on the evidence, and let's
3 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, could we have, please, on e-court
5 Q. I want to take you, Mr. Witness, straight to the evidence in Case
6 2 and ask you to clarify something. And the subject I'm dealing with is,
7 really, the background to the arming in Zvornik.
8 And it's e-court page 53.
9 I understand you don't speak English or read English. Is that
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Let me read you the section I'm interested in; e-court 53,
13 page 14873 of the transcript. This should be Case 2, 1D1694. No, I
14 think we've made a mistake.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. JORDASH: 1D01649. Apologies.
17 And while that's coming up, let me read the answer that I'm
18 interested in.
19 Q. You say this at line 3:
20 "Well, you see, we often put that question to the leadership of
21 the SDS. Why was he in contact with Milosevic at the time, who, after
22 all, advocated some ideas that were Communist ideas in terms of
23 continuing with the regime? Why was there not contact with other parties
24 that were more democratic than the regime? However, we contacted those
25 who could help us. That was -- it was only the SPS that was in
1 government then, and the relationship between the SPS and the Radicals
2 was terrible at the time. We went to see them in Loznica and elsewhere.
3 We held these meetings with them, and they warned us, and they had
4 strings attached to it as well, that we should not have contacts with
5 opposition parties because this parliamentary life in Serbia, the
6 multi-party system in Serbia, had not started functioning fully. So we
7 contacted with the SPS and the Radicals and others like Vuk Draskovic
8 from the SPO and the others, the Serb Renewal Movement, et cetera. So we
9 didn't really have contact with them, and we were even under the
10 surveillance of the SPS, that we should not have contact with them."
11 Do you recall that evidence?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you referring to 1991, late 1991?
14 A. Yes, 1991.
15 Q. And when you made the comment that the relationship between the
16 SPS and the Radicals was terrible at that time, what did you mean?
17 A. Well, the Radicals were in the opposition. The SPS was in power.
18 As far as I'm able to tell you, as far as my political knowledge takes
19 me, these were various political options that held differing views on
21 Q. And why was that relevant to -- if it was, why was that relevant
22 to the assistance you could receive in Zvornik?
23 A. Those of us in Zvornik were a minority, we were fearful, and we
24 tried to obtain assistance from all and any potential sources, including
25 those in power, those in opposition, et cetera.
1 Q. Let me ask you too about another piece of evidence; e-court 23,
3 correct that most of the volunteers who came to Zvornik came as
4 individuals, rather than as armed groups, from Serbia?
5 A. Solely as individuals, except for the Arkan's group, which
6 numbered some 15 to 20 men.
7 Q. Which came from Bijeljina?
8 A. They came from Bijeljina, and among them were people who hailed
9 from Bijeljina, such as Mauzer and some other locals who joined his unit.
11 hope is e-court 23 -- e-court page 23.
12 Okay, it's the same. I'm just being told that I could be being
14 but in e-court you should have page 23.
15 Q. So most of Arkan's group which came to Zvornik hailed from
16 Bijeljina; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. Those were local men who joined his unit there. There was
18 also the Serbian Volunteer Guard, led by Major Mauzer. That's how he was
20 MR. JORDASH: Okay. Sorry, it's my fault again. 1D1650. I do
21 apologise. Page 23. Perhaps we can deal with it quite quickly.
22 Q. Am I correct that the individuals who came as volunteers came
23 unarmed when they crossed over from Serbia?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know why that was?
1 A. They had to go through the border control, so they could not
2 carry long-barrelled weapons from Serbia.
3 Q. And are we talking about the period around September 1991 onwards
4 through to the attack on Zvornik in 1992?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And this also applied to Seselj's -- or the men who were
7 associated with the SRS; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
10 Could we have on the screen, please -- oh, before we do go there:
11 Q. Am I correct that Seselj's men or the SRS men, some of them came
12 from Bubanj Potok in JNA uniform?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did those in the JNA uniform come armed, or did they simply pick
15 up their arms when they arrived in Zvornik?
16 A. When they arrived in Zvornik, that was when they received
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
19 Could we have on the screen 1D1057, please.
20 Q. While that's happening: The poor relationship you spoke of
21 between the government and the SRS, did that manifest itself in any way,
22 in terms of the SRS volunteers having to leave Serbia secretly or
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. For what reason?
1 A. For the most part, they were criminals, people with a criminal
3 Q. And were those volunteers concerned that they would be arrested
4 by the Serbian police if they were found travelling outside of Serbia?
5 A. Yes. Most of them were individuals who had absconded justice.
6 In addition to that, the battle-field was the appropriate place for
7 plunder and such activities.
8 Q. What we have on the screen is a report by the State Security
9 Service of Serbia. The centre is Belgrade, and the date is the 4th of
10 November, 1993. And as you can see, it's an official note on the
11 activities of Vojin Vuckovic, aka Zuca, at the commander of the
12 paramilitary unit Yellow Wasps. And there's a reference there, if you
13 look at the first paragraph, to a visit to the members of that centre to
14 the Republika Srpska in October of 1993 to gather intelligence on
15 paramilitary units, particularly the unit known as the Yellow Wasps.
16 Did you ever become aware of that visit and the attempt to gather
18 A. I wasn't aware of it. I only know that some of them were
19 subsequently on trial in Sabac in Serbia.
20 Q. Let me ask you to look at the bottom paragraph there. And
21 there's a reference there to the unit being helped, in a way,
22 financially -- this is the Yellow Wasps -- "helped, financially, and
23 through influential people by the SRS, which was particularly influential
24 in the area of Zvornik, Loznica and Bijeljina. This initial assistance,
25 which strengthened the Yellow Wasps, subsequently became a way of
1 amassing a substantial amount of assets both for individuals and the
3 Does that accord with your experience of how the Yellow Wasps
4 were funded, at least in part?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let me ask you to look at the second page, please, of the English
7 and the B/C/S, and I want to ask you about the reference there to
8 Dr. Vidovic.
9 Did you know this doctor that's referred to here?
10 A. Yes, I knew him.
11 Q. And would you confirm he was murdered in Mali Zvornik?
12 A. Yes, he was killed in Mali Zvornik, in his flat.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
14 May I tender this as an exhibit to be MFI'd so we can indicate to
15 the Prosecution the provenance?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
17 And just one other issue I would raise is it seems to be
18 redacted. Is that a redaction done by the Defence? The beginning of the
19 first page seems to have redactions in the top left-hand corner. We
20 would appreciate seeing the unredacted version of the document.
21 MR. JORDASH: It came from the National Council in that way,
22 redacted. We can --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it will be MFI'd, and I take it that we can
24 further explore the reasons for the redaction.
25 Mr. Petrovic.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it may happen -- and
2 I'm not sure because I haven't seen the original. It may be the case
3 that this, in fact, is an imprint of the stamp which is affixed to the
4 page before, to the first page. I don't think that this was an
5 intentional move to redact anything.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the original, under the date of the
7 document -- okay, but let's explore that. It will be MFI'd for the time
9 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D0157 becomes Exhibit D159, marked for
11 identification, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status for the time being.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
15 Could we have 1D1058, please.
16 This is a statement of Dusko Vuckovic provided to the Serbian DB
17 as a voluntary statement on the 4th of November, 1993, and I just want to
18 ask about one or two aspects of it to see if you can confirm what this
19 man said.
20 If we can go to page 1 of the English and 1 of the B/C/S, and I
21 want to have a look at the -- towards the end of the big paragraph, top
22 paragraph, where Vuckovic says -- talks about -- and you can see this,
23 where he talks about being trained after being transferred to Prigrevica.
24 Q. Do you see that? Have you found that, Mr. Witness?
25 And then -- you nodded?
1 A. Yes, I found it, "Prigrevica."
2 Q. And it goes on to say:
3 "Weapons, ammunition, and other army materials were distributed
4 to us in Ada, all organised by a man called Dragan, who was a reserve
5 captain and commander of Ada village."
6 Does that accord with what you remember happening to many of
7 these volunteers, them being armed at this village?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And then over the page, please, to page 2 of both the English and
10 the B/C/S.
11 At the second paragraph of the English, Vuckovic talks about
12 being accommodated in Zvornik at the Jezero Hotel. This had been
13 organised by the SRS. Is that also something you recall, the
14 Hotel Jezero becoming a form of transit point for volunteers?
15 A. I'm not sure. I don't remember that.
16 Q. Let's go over the page, then, to page 3 of the English and page 3
17 of the B/C/S.
18 Well, no, before we go there, let's stay to page 2 of the English
19 and page 2 of the B/C/S, the third paragraph in the English, and the bit
20 I'm interested in is where it says:
21 "This Fadil and Mustafa Jahic, led us out from the SUP at about
22 1300 hours after the start of armed clashes on the 4th of April, 1992.
23 They took us towards the Ranney wells, where we were met by the regular
24 army, and they let us cross to Serbian territory. After this, we went to
25 the Jezero hotel, and the next day we started the organised combat action
1 to clear Zvornik. We received the weapons and ammunition, as well as
2 other equipment, from the Zvornik TO prior to the start of this action."
3 Do you agree with that paragraph as something that happened?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. And then --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then over the page, please, to page 3, the English, and
8 page 3 of the B/C/S.
9 The second paragraph into the page, Vuckovic is talking about an
10 arrest, when he was arrested by the police at the check-point at the
11 entrance to Veliki Zvornik. Were you aware of that arrest?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you aware that he was, as the paragraph notes, released from
14 prison a few days later, thanks to the intervention of the president of
15 the Radical Party in Loznica and a lawyer who had been engaged by the
16 same party?
17 A. I think that he was released as a result of the engagement of the
18 security men. I don't think that the Radicals would really have assisted
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, line 15, the answer
22 isn't fully recorded, who has been engaged.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see.
24 You were asked, Witness JF-026, about the release of
25 Mr. Vuckovic, thanks to the intervention of the president of the Radical
1 Party in Loznica and a lawyer who had been engaged by that same party.
2 Could you please repeat the answer you gave there?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't clear on the question,
4 really. I know of two Zuca's arrests. One took place in 1992, in
5 Zvornik, at the beginning of the war, and the second arrest was in
6 Bijeljina. If the question has to do with the first arrest, in that case
7 it could not have been the Radical Party members that could have helped
8 him, but the military security men. If you're referring to the second
9 arrest in Bijeljina, I have no information whatsoever as to whether he
10 was, indeed, helped by anyone, and, if so, by whom.
11 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I should have -- sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that Mr. Petrovic's concerns have been
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
17 MR. JORDASH: For your information, I was talking about the first
19 If we go on to the last page of the document, I was going to deal
20 with this later, but let's deal with it now; page 5 of the English and 6
21 of the -- 5 of the B/C/S, and the bottom paragraph of the B/C/S should
23 "At the end of July 1992, I was arrested together with my
24 brother, Zuca, and my comrades-in-arms by some specialists from Sarajevo
25 who were members of the Army of Republika Srpska."
1 Q. This is the second arrest, am I correct, Mr. Witness?
2 A. Yes, you're right.
3 Q. And the paragraph goes on:
4 "They took some 40 of us into custody and took us to the prison
5 in Bijeljina. The others were released after seven or eight days, and I
6 was kept for 15 days and then transferred to Ugljesevik [phoen]. I spent
7 about 12 days in prison in Ugljesevik and was then returned to Bijeljina
8 to stand trial. Since I was not a member of the armed forces, the
9 Military Court in Bijeljina transferred me to the civilian authorities in
10 Bijeljina. Since I had freedom of movement, I returned to Belgrade
11 without waiting for the verdict of the Civilian Court."
12 Were you aware of those facts?
13 A. Yes, I heard of it.
14 Q. And I think you made reference today, you're aware of the fact he
15 was eventually prosecuted in Serbia and sentenced. Did you know that?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. JORDASH: Let me move on to another document, 1D -- may I
18 tender that as an exhibit to be MFI'd, Your Honour?
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, based on the witness's corroboration of
20 the facts, many of the facts in the document and my recognition of the
21 accuracy of others, I do not oppose admission of the document at this
22 time. I would ask, though, for some explanation with respect of the
23 redaction, where we might expect to see the signature of the person
24 giving the statement, it seems it's been blacked out on each page. If
25 Mr. Jordash could assist us in understanding that.
1 MR. JORDASH: Again, that's how we received it from the National
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you didn't seek any clarification of that?
4 MR. JORDASH: Not from the National Council. It came from,
5 I think, DB or MUP archives.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have it MFI'd, and please try to obtain
7 further information as to why it is redacted.
8 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1058 becomes D160, marked for
10 identification, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
14 Could we have 1D00390.
15 Q. Again, what's going to come up on the screen, Mr. Witness, is a
16 DB report from the Valjevo DB, and it is dated the 28th of July, 1995,
17 and it's summarising a particular operation, Operation Tomson.
18 Did you ever hear of Operation Tomson?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let me ask you whether you heard of -- perhaps you don't know the
21 name -- if you ever heard of an operation within Serbia to arrest
22 paramilitary formations who were causing disorder.
23 A. I heard of the activity, but I do not know under which name it
24 was carried out.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm where Valjevo is, please? How far is
1 it from Zvornik?
2 A. Valjevo is about 100 kilometres from Zvornik, perhaps a bit less,
3 70 or 80.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to ask you about page 3 of the English
5 and page 5 of the B/C/S.
6 Am I correct, before we get there, that many of the volunteers
7 who arrived from Serbia were arriving from Loznica? Let me say that
8 again. Loznica.
9 A. Yes, most came from neighbouring municipalities, Mali Zvornik,
10 Loznica, Ljubovija. That is only logical, because they are nearby.
11 Q. Now, page 3 of the English and page 5 of the -- just so you know,
12 this is a report on Operation Tomson, summarising from 1991 to 1995, and
13 I want to ask you about two paragraphs, the second two -- two paragraphs
14 to the last on the English, and the paragraphs read:
15 "In view of the relatively good organisation of extremists in the
16 territory of Loznica, especially in areas where they run the local
17 authorities or are supported by municipal leaders, there were many
18 difficulties in searches and the confiscation of weapons from persons who
19 were thought to possess illegal weapons.
20 "It was also noted that some state organs, primarily misdemeanor
21 judges in Mali Zvornik and the investigating judge at Sabac, at the
22 District Court in Sabac, viewed with sympathy and tolerated perpetrators
23 of crimes and misdemeanors defined by the Law on Weapons and Ammunition
24 of the Republic of Serbia, which aggravated and impeded further
25 activities by other entities in the prevention and stopping of these
1 criminal activities."
2 Now, my question is: Were you aware, Mr. Witness, that the
3 volunteers from Loznica -- excuse me, Loznica -- were closely connected
4 to the authorities in Loznica?
5 A. Volunteers from Loznica were not connected with the authorities
6 in Loznica at the time.
7 Q. So you wouldn't agree with this report that the DB compiled, that
8 they were struggling to deal with their extremist activities, because
9 once they made arrests, they were then being released by investigating
10 judges, misdemeanor judges?
11 A. I did not understand you right. At that time, the Serb Radical
12 Party was in power in Loznica, and this report is quite correct,
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
15 May I tender this as an MFI document, please?
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, in addition to questions about
17 authenticity, I'd be interested in -- what time-period are we speaking
18 of? The front of the document says "1995." Are we speaking about the
19 period of July 1995?
20 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps I can cast some light on it and ask that we
21 turn up page 4 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S, And the
22 time-period covered by the report then is made clear. And it's, as
23 Your Honours can see, an overview of the weapons confiscated by the
24 Serbian DB from -- in these particular years from this particular centre.
25 It's a summary of what the DB was doing pursuant to Operation Tomson.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: Perhaps I'll study it a bit more. I'm still a bit
3 confused as to what the date is -- and what time-period the events in
4 this report from 1995 are being described. But I can discuss that with
5 Mr. Jordash and study the document more carefully.
6 MR. JORDASH: I can say now it's our case that in 1995, there was
7 a review of the success or lack of success of Operation Tomson from 1991
8 to 1995, and that's what this document is.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It may be that Mr. Groome wants to have a look
10 at the document to see whether any time-frames are specified in relation
11 to the portion you just dealt with, and I think we should give him an
12 opportunity to do so.
13 So, therefore, the document will be MFI'd, Madam Registrar, and
14 that is for allowing Mr. Groome to look at what the relevance is and
15 whether he would have any objections in relation to that.
16 Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D390 becomes D161, marked for
18 identification, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It keeps that status
20 for the time being.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Now, I want to turn to the evidence you've given about arming in
24 Zvornik. And you'll recall, before the break or before one of the
25 breaks, that His Honour asked the question about how you -- well,
1 directed to find out how you were able to quantify who was arming and the
2 amount of arming that was being done by various entities. Am I correct
3 that you quantified the number of weapons that came into Zvornik before
4 the war as about 3.000?
5 A. Yes. Between 3.000 and 4.000, yes.
6 Q. And how were you able to quantify that number?
7 A. This is just an estimate. There is no certainty involved.
8 Q. Weren't the Crisis Staff keeping records?
9 A. Yes, as to what we had. However, when I speak about the number,
10 I'm talking about the people who were on the reserve force and so on.
11 Quite simply, the counting was done in ethnic terms, how many Serbs were
12 armed; the army, et cetera.
13 Q. Am I correct that you would also say this: that the number-one
14 source for arms was the JNA or the TO depots; is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And the second was Bogdanovic?
17 A. Not Bogdanovic. RSK, Republika Srpska Krajina, via Bogdanovic,
18 who instructed us to report there.
19 Q. So when you went to see Bogdanovic, whom you've told us was no
20 longer the minister of the interior of Serbia, he directed you to the
21 army; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, the advice given was to report to the Republic of the Serb
23 Krajina or the JNA, and that was a response to the JNA call-up, to accept
24 the JNA call-up.
25 Q. I want to ask you something about -- something about what you
1 said in an interview which you gave to the Prosecution on the 16th of --
2 17th of February, 2002.
3 Now, perhaps I can try to save some time by asking you this: Did
4 you consider that Bogdanovic was running some kind of parallel state
5 security service, parallel to the real State Security Service in Serbia?
6 A. Well, I personally had the impression that he was very powerful
7 in the police because he was a former minister. And in view of the way
8 in which he resigned in this way, he saved Milosevic, as far as I
9 understand the politics involved, because of demonstrations that have
10 been organised by Vuk Draskovic.
11 Q. And what you observed was that there was a group gathered around
12 Bogdanovic who were operating some kind of parallel state security; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Well, he was influential in the police and in the military.
15 I think that he told us that beforehand he had worked in the Ministry of
16 Defence before he became minister of the interior. I don't know exactly
17 which position he held, but I think that that is what he told us during a
19 Q. And, in any event, he had direct contacts with the Ministry of
20 Defence, from what you observed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And he could easily pick up a phone and call up members of the
23 JNA to ensure the delivery of supplies?
24 A. Well, he didn't do that directly in contact with us. The people
25 he sent us to see could have done that, though.
1 Q. I am interested in going back to the phrase "parallel state
2 security," because it's one I suggest you've used in the past. We can
3 turn up the interview, if you want.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I'm also looking at the clock, and I
5 might need a bit of time before we can adjourn for the day.
6 As far as matters stand now for tomorrow, still your assessment
7 is the same?
8 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. I'm actually moving a bit faster
9 than I thought, but to be on the safe side, I would like to have two
11 JUDGE ORIE: And half an hour for you, Mr. Groome?
12 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you wouldn't mind, what you intend to do
14 might take certainly more than one or two minutes, and --
15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I'm happy to leave it there. Thank
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Before we adjourn for today: Witness JF-026, as you are aware
19 and as I just told you, the Chamber received the message that you
20 couldn't be here with us tomorrow and that you would travel home, and the
21 Chamber was not informed, and apparently you have not given VWS details,
22 apart from in relation to a request, but, rather, information as to what
23 you said you would do. But apart from that, the Chamber, of course,
24 always should listen to you.
25 Now, you earlier told us that you had business to attend. Would
1 you like to add anything? I'm not giving you any promises, but if you'd
2 like to add anything to that which you think might change the mind of
3 this Chamber, you have an opportunity to do so. We'll carefully listen
4 to you and see whether there's any specific reason to reconsider our
5 decision. So you have an opportunity to add any further details as to
6 why your presence tomorrow morning in this court is not what you wish.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Have you considered any alternative ways of
18 travelling back to Belgrade?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's the problem. We could
20 perhaps look into the organisation. I think that my flight tomorrow is
21 after 1.00. I mean, I would be fine with leaving at 5.00 in the
22 afternoon. Perhaps they could find an alternative flight for me.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or you could find one.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't have time. I'll
25 try, of course. I would like this to be over as well. I wouldn't want
1 to come back, and I'm going to do my best tonight to find an alternative
2 route or to try to postpone the meeting.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, the Victims and Witness
4 Section informed me that they are exploring other options. I hope that
5 you'll understand.
6 And I take it that you also have understood that the Chamber
7 tried to do its utmost best to conclude your testimony as quickly as
8 possible. I earlier said that, to some extent, you could have speeded up
9 the proceedings as well. I'm not blaming you for choosing what you
10 apparently have chosen to do; that is, to discuss in detail last Monday
11 the protective measures, which took quite a while in court. You've
12 chosen not to speak with the Office of the Prosecution. You are not
13 under a duty to do so, but it certainly has taken some additional time to
14 deal with those matters.
15 Any other thing you'd like to add to that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just -- let me first look at the parties.
18 Mr. Jordash, you are aware of the wish of the witness. I do not
19 know whether that changes in any way your assessment. I'm not urging you
20 to do that. I'm just asking you whether what you've heard changes
22 MR. JORDASH: Can I just take instructions?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 Mr. Groome.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, maybe I'm speaking from incomplete
1 information, but I was informed that we would be able to sit until noon.
2 The witness has said that he's fine if he leaves the building here at, I
3 believe, 5.00 in the afternoon, so it seems to me that we've solved the
4 problem, that he is available tomorrow morning to conclude his
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I didn't take the "5.00" message as a firm one
7 yet, but --
8 MR. JORDASH: It's difficult, I think, sometimes to fly to Serbia
9 late in the day. I've had that problem.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, direct flights, certainly. Sometimes indirect
11 flights might help. But --
12 MR. JORDASH: I think I can assist, and I will do my very best to
13 finish within one session. I think if I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, we can't ask VWS to make
15 travel arrangements. At the same time, I fully understand if you say, I
16 can't give any guarantee. But then we have to act on the basis of there
17 being no guarantees, and then the Victims and Witness Section will
18 proceed as they deem appropriate.
19 So I earlier asked you for an assessment. We might limit your
20 time tomorrow morning. But I'm now asking whether you commit yourself to
21 any time-limit, self-imposed, and what that would be. If so, I'd like to
22 hear. If not -- and, again, I'm not urging you, I'm not pressing you in
23 any way, but I'm just -- as always, I'm looking at to what extent we can
24 accommodate the witness's wishes, although inclination to do so might be
25 slightly less than it usually is.
1 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps if WVS could have -- or the possibility of
2 flying tomorrow could be checked, and I will then commit to being
3 finished within one session, if that allows the witness to get to his
4 business meeting.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I take it that -- through Madam Registrar,
6 that you'll receive whatever messages come from the Victims and Witness
8 Mr. Groome, your assessment. Again, I'm not pushing you, as I
9 didn't push Mr. Jordash. I'm just exploring where we are, in view of the
10 wishes expressed by the witness.
11 MR. GROOME: I would need the half hour, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You need that half an hour.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness JF-026. The Chamber has considered the
15 circumstances you have raise. The Chamber has also considered the
16 searches for alternative solutions. As matters stand now, the Chamber
17 does not reconsider its decision that we'll continue to hear your
18 testimony tomorrow morning at 9.00.
19 At the same time, the Chamber appreciates that everyone seems to
20 be ready to explore alternative solutions, and everyone is encouraged to
21 do so, but we would like to finish your testimony tomorrow.
22 Where I earlier said that you're under an order to appear
23 tomorrow morning, at 9.00 in the morning, that order, therefore, also
24 stands. And I do understand that you're willing to attend, which is much
25 appreciated. The Chamber is aware of the problems you're facing at this
1 moment, but at the same time, in balancing all the interests involved,
2 also the history of how we ended up in this situation where we have to
3 continue tomorrow morning, the Chamber is unable at this moment to
4 relieve you from attending tomorrow morning at 9.00.
5 Everyone will try to do its utmost best to accommodate you. To
6 what extent we'll succeed, to what extent it's possible to keep several
7 flights open, the Chamber doesn't know, but relies on an inventive
8 approach by everyone involved.
9 Since we will adjourn in open session, I, first of all, would
10 like to instruct you again that you should not speak with anyone about
11 your testimony, whether already given or still to be given tomorrow, not
12 to speak, not to communicate in any other way either.
13 May I invite you to follow the Usher so that we can adjourn for
14 the day after you have left the courtroom.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 We'll adjourn for the day, and we will continue tomorrow, a day
22 which is not in the court schedule for this courtroom, but we'll continue
23 tomorrow morning, the 3rd of -- Friday, the 3rd of December, 9.00 in the
24 morning, in this same Courtroom II, if I'm not mistaken.
25 Madam Registrar, it appears that I'm right.
1 We stand adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of
4 December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.