110126ED

Page 10665

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. Do you know who Kertes answered to at that point in time? Who

13 his immediate superior was?

14 A. One more time?

15 Q. Do you know who Kertes's immediate superior was at that time?

16 A. No, no, to be honest.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10666

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. How do you know he was very, very close to Milosevic?

8 A. Most of time where Milosevic was going on a meetings and these

9 kind of situations, he was next to him always.

10 Q. Right. So your -- I'm not disputing you, but your information is

11 or was that he had a one-to-one type relationship with Milosevic?

12 A. That is my knowledge.

13 Q. And apart from that you don't know who else he answered to or who

14 he employed?

15 A. During that time, I don't know.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. During that time, as I says, that was situation very, very big

18 and radical changes in everyday political movements, et cetera. It was

19 really hard to follow all these things and who is who, who is doing what,

20 et cetera, et cetera.

21 Q. Mm-hm. Okay. Thank you. Just reading on through this

22 paragraph:

23 "Another contact at SUP Novi Sad was Ratko Sikimic, who was one

24 of the deputies at the time."

25 Did you hear of him?

Page 10667

1 A. Yes, I heard for him.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Right. And reading on:

7 "Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, who was with the Serbian MUP, acted

8 as co-ordinator and gave us guide-lines on what to do. He was the one

9 who said we could go to Novi Sad and get uniforms and equipment."

10 Is that something within your knowledge?

11 A. I know that Badza during that time had a very, very much power in

12 the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And, to be honest, he was -- even he

13 was a deputy of ministry, he was, by my knowledge during that time,

14 working the police. He was above him. He was very, very strong,

15 powerful, and very arrogant.

16 Q. Sorry, "he was above him." Who was above who?

17 A. Above the ministry -- minister. Because even he was deputy of

18 minister of Internal Affairs.

19 Q. Who was this again? Sorry to interrupt.

20 A. Badza.

21 Q. What's the significance of that, him being the deputy?

22 A. He was a very powerful person in the MUP during the time he was

23 alive.

24 Q. Well, deputy makes him the boss below the minister --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Jordash.

Page 10668

1 THE WITNESS: By his --

2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness started because even he was the

3 deputy -- he explained above the minister. Try -- first of all, I would

4 like to encourage the witness to very much give focused answers on what

5 Mr. Jordash asks you. And I would encourage Mr. Jordash to carefully

6 listen because the witness was explaining us that despite that he was

7 lower in the hierarchy, that he was more powerful. That's how I

8 understood your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: Exactly.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So I apparently --

11 THE WITNESS: Actually, he didn't need to ask anybody about the

12 decision what he would make.

13 MR. JORDASH:

14 Q. Yeah, so by title he was below the minister, but de facto he

15 was --

16 A. He had a power.

17 Q. And he answered directly to Milosevic?

18 A. Yes.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10669

1 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. And at what point do you say that changed, when the JNA then took

17 a more belligerent role?

18 A. After the military camp in Vukovar was surrounded by ZNG, ZNG

19 people, and they started to attack.

20 Q. So when was that in --

21 A. To be honest, I can't remember the date. It was sometime in

22 August.

23 Q. Right. So in -- by August 1991 the JNA are now, would you agree

24 with this, in command of military matters in the SBWS?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10670

1 Q. And at that point the TO answers to the JNA?

2 A. Yeah. Because everything was united under the one command.

3 Q. And that included, did it not, when Arkan and his men arrived,

4 Arkan also falling under the command of the JNA?

5 A. After that, everybody, as I says, including the police units and

6 everybody, they were under the one command which were synchronising the,

7 let's say, attacks, battles, and acting of every -- every single unit on

8 the field.

9 Q. Right. And the principal men included General Bratic, commander

10 of the Novi Sad Corps; is that correct?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. And also General Mandaric from the Serbian TO.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And General Geza Farkas.

15 A. Yes, General Farkas. And there was another general; I think so

16 it was Andrija Biorcevic.

17 Q. -- Bijocevic. Who was good friends with Arkan.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you observe that?

20 A. Yeah, I saw that they have a sympathy [sic]. They went together

21 in hunting sometime, or fishing.

22 Q. Right. Throughout 1991?

23 A. After the Vukovar battle and through -- through the battle. But

24 after the battle they were co-operating very close.

25 Q. Right. Their work during Vukovar solidifying their relationship,

Page 10671

1 militarily and socially it seems?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Are you able to confirm that Ilija Kojic was injured in

4 October of 1991, early October?

5 A. Yeah. He was hurt, I think so, in the back somewhere.

6 Q. Are you able to confirm --

7 A. Right or left side, I don't know which side of back.

8 Q. Do you know how he was injured?

9 A. Yeah, he was -- he was injured, I think it was in the battle, and

10 he got a bullet on left or right side. I can't remember on this moment

11 because it was long time ago.

12 Q. Are you able to confirm he was laid up in bed for four months as

13 a result of that accident -- injury?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And Badza took over as TO commander?

16 A. Yes. Zavisic was coming also.

17 Q. Was it the case that -- well, let me take you to your statements.

18 MR. JORDASH: Could we have P2091. 2003 statement, please.

19 Could we have paragraph 19.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could I ask you whether the wounding and

21 the hospitalisation of Mr. Kojic is contested, or?

22 MR. GROOME: It is not. I'm not precisely sure about the

23 four-month period, but the general fact that he was wounded and Badza

24 took over is not a matter that the Prosecution contests. In fact, that's

25 our theory of the case.

Page 10672

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, there is evidence, we've received

2 evidence, on that. What's the purpose, if it's apparently not a

3 contested issue, to seek that evidence to be repeated? We have evidence

4 at this moment - let me just see - injured during battle, October 1991,

5 correct, up until that time are you able to confirm that he was injured

6 and hopitalised out of action until early 1992. It's true that in

7 October he spent three or four months in hospital. That's what is in

8 evidence. What's the purpose, if that's not a contested issue, to hear

9 that evidence again?

10 MR. JORDASH: I didn't appreciate that it wasn't a contested

11 issue.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, was there any -- I didn't got the impression

13 when we heard this evidence that there was -- of course I'm not asking

14 this without reason, because I never gained the impression that it was

15 something that -- so you would say you seek repeated evidence on every

16 issue where Mr. Groome has not told us that it is not contested?

17 MR. JORDASH: Well, I'd put it slightly differently, which is

18 that --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. JORDASH: I am not really sure what it is that has been

21 alleged against Mr. Kojic and how that is supposed to support the

22 criminal responsibility of the accused. And I'm simply trying to cover

23 every angle and make sure that I establish as firmly as possible what our

24 case is.

25 It's -- much has been alleged by many witnesses about, much of it

Page 10673

1 contradictory, concerning Mr. Kojic, and the Prosecution's case is that,

2 well, as Your Honours know, that they link him with Mr. Stanisic. And in

3 the absence of having a clear idea what the Prosecution case is, through

4 their witnesses or through the indictment, then I felt as though I needed

5 to emphasise when he was out of action.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- well, if you think that -- again, if

7 you think that that is the most effective way of using your three hours',

8 as you announced, cross-examination, then -- of which you used two hours

9 by now, then please proceed as you wish. But I have some concerns, and

10 I'm not the only one on this bench, as to how focused this is. And I

11 just noticed that it did not come to my mind that three or four month at

12 the time which was - let me just check - well, I don't know exactly

13 whether it was in the examination-in-chief or in cross-examination, but I

14 had no recollection whatsoever that there was any dispute about that

15 Mr. Kojic had been out of order for a couple of months after he was

16 wounded. But please proceed.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10674

11 Pages 10674-10692 redacted. Closed session.

Page 10693

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 Q. Right. And this was a man called Dusan Knezevic; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, Dusan Knezevic, exactly.

6 Q. And I suggest that the police station in Ilok -- let me put it

7 differently. That he was active in trying to prevent crime against

8 non-Serbs in Ilok --

9 A. Yes, he was --

10 Q. -- those that had remained.

11 A. -- he was trying to help these people, to protect them, but his

12 police officers simply they didn't listen his orders. And my opinion on

13 that time, and I was from time to time arguing with the local police

14 officers there, I was accusing them straight -- tell them why they are

15 doing these things, because by doing these they are going just to do

16 worse, not good.

17 Q. Right. And at that time there were some police officers

18 misbehaving and other -- and various men from various paramilitaries who

19 had been in the region who were misbehaving in Ilok?

20 A. Oh, yeah. They were coming from other areas. They were coming

21 from Tovarnik, they were coming from Vukovar, they were coming from

22 Borovo Selo, they were -- during that time, it was very hard to work.

23 Why? Let's say local police members, during the -- which were police

24 officers during the battle, after the battle they feel that they can do

25 everything. They feel themself like liberators, and they took a freedom

Page 10694

1 even to be above the law. And that was a big problem there. Most of

2 time the commanding staff of the police in area was facing with the big,

3 big, big problems. Even with threats to be killed. Some cases

4 sexually -- some of them they were killed, and it was a very, very hard

5 time. Very hard time.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, finally, I want to deal with the times that you

7 refer in your 2003 statement to the Red Berets.

8 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to P2091, please.

9 Q. Now, you, at paragraph 33 ... and perhaps we can shortcut this.

10 At no point in your 2003 statement do you connect the Red Berets to

11 Jovica Stanisic. Do you agree with that?

12 A. Yeah. I agree with that.

13 Q. Now, you describe them in Ilok and you describe them at

14 Bajina Basta.

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. Would you agree with me that you have no evidence to connect them

17 to the -- to Mr. Stanisic?

18 A. Yeah, I agree.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10695

11 Pages 10695-10696 redacted. Closed session.

Page 10697

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. And what was Bozovic's relationship with the PJM; do you know?

8 A. During that time, that kind of units, let's say, from police

9 which were involved in the war fighting zones, they were as the name says

10 on B/H/S: "posebna jedinica milicia" [Interpretation] police unit for

11 special purposes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- yes, if you switch to another language,

13 would you please repeat what you said, because the interpreters are taken

14 by surprise if you suddenly ... could you repeat your last sentences.

15 THE WITNESS: Sorry. [Interpretation] Such units of the police

16 that were engaged in combat zones were called Special Police Units or

17 units of the police for special purposes. [In English] That for, to give

18 the exact translation on the English is simply not possible, for me of

19 course.

20 MR. JORDASH:

21 Q. Okay. I think I've only got one last question, which relates to

22 part of your statement, page 68, where you refer to a Red Beret unit of

23 the Serbian MUP in a training camp at Batajnica, near Belgrade.

24 You say Serbian MUP. Could I suggest that the training camp in

25 Batajnica was a training camp for the public security SAJ, anti-terrorist

Page 10698

1 unit?

2 A. Yes. But not only SAJ. Sometime when the people from another --

3 the members from another units were there on training.

4 Q. It was owned by the SA -- by the public security?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Used by others?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. JORDASH: Could I just take instructions, please.

10 [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]

11 MR. JORDASH: No further questions.

12 Thank you, Mr. Witness.

13 Thank you, Your Honours.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 10699

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apart from the SAJ, what other units could you

18 specifically mention that used that facility?

19 THE WITNESS: To be honest, I cannot -- I cannot say

20 specifically, but if it was necessary from, let's say, from

21 MUP Republika Srpska or from another MUP to come people, to be trained,

22 to get the skills and knowledge about the acting in the special

23 situation, with the situation with the terrorists, et cetera, et cetera.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You now refer to MUPs from other entities.

25 Could it also be units, other units, from the MUP Serbia?

Page 10700

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, also.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So it could be any of their units?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then you'll now be cross-examined by

5 Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic. He will put his

6 questions to you in your own language. The need for a pause remains the

7 same.

8 Mr. Bakrac, you may proceed.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good

10 afternoon to all.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

12 [The witness answered through interpreter]

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. If I understand you

14 correctly, we will be speaking in Serbian, won't we. So then let us

15 pause between the question and answer in order to assist the

16 interpreters. So please wait for my question to end before you start

17 answering it.

18 Actually, before I start with my questions, related to your

19 statement, let me ask you something. Until the present day, have you

20 seen the film Jedinica, The Unit, on TV, the one about the JSO from Kula?

21 A. [Interpretation] Have I seen the film, or have I seen the adds,

22 the video-clips?

23 Q. Have you seen the entire film? And if you haven't, tell us

24 whether you saw parts of it or whether you've not seen any of it.

25 A. I have not seen the whole film. I've seen parts though.

Page 10701

1 Q. The parts that you saw, did they include those where

2 Mr. Franko Simatovic was reading a speech from a sheet of paper?

3 A. I cannot recall exactly. I really cannot remember exactly which

4 parts I saw.

5 Q. All right. Could you tell us whether you saw this film before

6 you gave your statement in 2003 -- or, rather, these parts of the film

7 that you saw. Let me be very specific. I don't want to put words into

8 your mouth. You said what you said.

9 A. No. Before 2003, no. No, I hadn't seen it then.

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

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14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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18 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10702

11 Pages 10702-10710 redacted. Closed session.

Page 10711

1 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. JF-030, during the examination-in-chief, you said that the

11 weapons came -- or, rather, the weapons came through "skela" and that the

12 police was controlling that crossing at "skela"; is that correct?

13 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

14 Q. And was Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the source, Mr. Bakrac, about

16 "skela"? Page number?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can do that after the

18 break. I can provide the page number after the break. This was in the

19 examination-in-chief by Mr. Groome, and I think it had to do with

20 paragraph 15.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Paragraph 15, you will see the last sentence:

24 "At that time, no one other than members of the police and army

25 could come to Croatia without the permission of the DB?"

Page 10712

1 So this is what this is about. And then you spoke about that

2 "skela"; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. My question -- since you said that the police was controlling the

5 crossing at "skela," my question is whether Radovan Stojicic, Badza, at

6 that time had the capacity to control and to issue permits for the

7 crossing via the "skela"?

8 A. Yes, absolutely.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague

10 Mr. Petrovic has just given me the reference. The page is 10606 where

11 "skela" is mentioned.

12 Q. So, Witness, sir, we all know very well that

13 Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, from the very beginning when he started in

14 the police all the way up to his post as minister, earlier you said that

15 his importance and significance even exceeded his post, that he never was

16 a member of the DB; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So you will agree with me that this assertion that at the time

19 nobody other than police and military members could not go into Croatia

20 without the permission of the DB does not stand; this is something that

21 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, could have secured, who according to you formed

22 the Red Berets in Ilok and for a time was the commander of the TO; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 10713

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just to inform you that I've still difficulties in

2 finding the word "skela" or --

3 THE WITNESS: "Skela" is ferry.

4 MR. BAKRAC: Ferry.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now I do -- yes, I see that. Yes, that creates

6 quite a bit of confusion.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, sir, today you told us that in the attack at Erdut on

10 the 1st of August, 1991, you spoke about Erdut and Dalj, and you said

11 that this was organised, or you said that the organisers or that the JNA

12 and the TO together with Arkan organised this attack on the

13 1st of August, 1991; is that correct?

14 A. The attack on Erdut did not take place on the

15 1st of August, 1991. This was the attack on Dalj. Dalj was liberated in

16 early August. After that, the attack on Erdut occurred. But I explained

17 in the statement - the Defence attorney for Mr. Stanisic asked me - I

18 explained that JNA units did take part in the attack on Erdut because it

19 was necessary to lift the siege of the barracks in Vukovar because they

20 were suffering heavy casualties, they were cut off from the world, they

21 were not able to get medical help or anything else, so then the decision

22 was made to free the Vukovar barracks. But without a contact or some

23 kind of bridge in Erdut, this was practically impossible to do.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10714

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now have

6 Exhibit P357 on the screen, please. This is a statement of a witness, a

7 Prosecution witness, who was a member of the JNA, an ethnic Croat.

8 Q. You said that at that time there were members of the Croat ethnic

9 group in the JNA. Since it's large statement and I don't have enough

10 time, I'm just going to draw your attention to page 4 in the B/C/S,

11 before paragraph 11. This witness talks about the capture of Erdut,

12 Dalj, and Bijelo Brdo. He talks about -- also can we look at

13 paragraph 14, which states: "In the morning hours, on the 1st of August,

14 1991, a couple of hundred metres away from the bridge, the column was

15 stopped," et cetera, et cetera. And then it ends talking about Erdut:

16 "The task was carried out in the morning hours on the 1st of August,

17 1991.

18 We can see in paragraph 13 the access of movements, the bridge on

19 the Danube, and so on and so forth. Do you agree that we can see that

20 here and that according to this witness from the military, from the army,

21 this occurred on the 1st of August, 1991?

22 A. Erdut was not liberated on the 1st of August, 1991. This was

23 still the territory of Yugoslavia. After the fall, since they were a

24 kind of buffer zone between the two warring or conflicting sides, they

25 were be able to still move over the bridge at that time, as the JNA.

Page 10715

1 However, after the fall of Dalj, things turned around and the JNA units

2 were prevented from crossing the bridge, and there were problems in

3 regular supply of the Serbian population. And this is why Erdut was

4 liberated later.

5 Q. All right, Witness, that is your position. I'm not going to go

6 into that. It's not that important to me. I don't want to lose any more

7 time on that.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. Please can you look at paragraph 17 now, please, and then I'm

20 going to put a question to you about your statement.

21 The witness says here:

22 "The same day, I searched the MUP facility at the Erdut winery

23 training centre, where I found huge quantities of equipment, parts of

24 uniforms, a lot of quartermaster supplies, kit bags, parts of weaponry,

25 parts of the US Thompson submachine-gun," and so on and so forth.

Page 10716

1 Which evidently indicated that they fled and that they had no

2 wish to offer resistance. There was a lot -- there was also a lot of

3 personal documents in the facility.

4 So my question is: Was this a facility where Arkan moved his

5 camp?

6 A. The winery, yes.

7 Q. And this statement, this detail from the statement from which we

8 can see that this training centre was first entered by the JNA, and this

9 witness, an ethnic Croat, was there among the first to enter, does that

10 correspond to what you know about the JNA then handing this training

11 centre over to Arkan, the training centre in Erdut?

12 A. As far as I know, yes. He requested that the Erdut training

13 centre be handed over to him.

14 Q. From the JNA?

15 A. Yes, of course. Because all of that was under the control of the

16 Yugoslav People's Army.

17 Q. Witness, thank you very much. We are going to move on.

18 You were talking about the battle for Vukovar and you were

19 talking about co-ordination. Did I understand you correctly that there

20 was co-ordination between the JNA and the MUP in the battle for Vukovar,

21 or between the JNA and the DB?

22 A. I think I said that all had been placed under a single command.

23 The MUP and all the units that were out in the combat area were under the

24 command of the Army of Yugoslavia. The JNA at the time, that is.

25 Q. Is it correct that the Red Berets that were stationed in Ilok did

Page 10717

1 not take part in the fighting for Vukovar?

2 A. Yes, because they hadn't been established. It was only the

3 63rd Parachute Brigade that wore red berets at the time.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we seek clarification there on the basis of

15 the knowledge of the witness.

16 You say you know that the Red Berets were there. And then

17 Mr. Bakrac said: "So the Red Berets of the Army of Yugoslavia?" Now,

18 could you tell us exactly what units you were referring to which makes

19 you conclude that the Red Berets you said were there were part of?

20 THE WITNESS: [In English] 63rd Parachute Brigade.

21 JUDGE ORIE: 61st?

22 THE WITNESS: 63rd.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Third, yes. And you know positively that they were

24 there. Any other units?

25 THE WITNESS: During the battles for Vukovar, yeah, there were

Page 10718

1 other units from JNA. They were brigade, 1st Brigade.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Red Berets?

3 THE WITNESS: In some other units also. But with the Red Berets,

4 they were only 63rd Parachute Brigade.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You say the Red Berets you referred to as taking

6 part in the Vukovar battle, you refer to the 63rd Parachute Brigade?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And no other units?

9 THE WITNESS: In the Red Berets, only them.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

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Page 10719

11 Pages 10719-10721 redacted. Closed session.

Page 10723

1 call it the Hoffmann paper 2008.

2 MR. JORDASH: February 2008?

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly the reason why I asked you to look at

4 it carefully before you --

5 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I hadn't understood that it was just the one

6 statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: At least it is clear to me from the e-mail. And

8 Mr. Groome seems to confirm that.

9 MR. JORDASH: Well, our position is that, as in the past, that we

10 object to the statement pursuant to 92 ter. On the other hand, we would

11 only raise the same arguments we've raised before with most of the

12 witnesses and had them rejected, so we put our position like that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. On the -- I would say, on the usual

14 basis, you object.

15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, would I like to join my

18 colleague Mr. Jordash in what he said, but, Your Honours, if you decide

19 to accept Mr. Groome's concept, then our Defence will have some questions

20 in relation to the 2003 statement, that is to say, what Mr. Groome is not

21 offering within that package, as it were.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Groome, I think, if you limit yourself to

23 2008, that does not prevent the Defence from asking questions about a

24 statement the witness may have given at an earlier stage.

25 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, in fact, I disclosed today the

Page 10724

1 witness's comments on that statement as well so they have the full

2 package with regard to that prior statement.

3 JUDGE ORIE: So the Defence can then do whatever it deems fit to

4 do in that respect.

5 Second question: How much time -- if the examination-in-chief is

6 limited to the Hoffmann papers, how much time would you need for cross?

7 MR. JORDASH: I think we agree that we could finish the witness

8 tomorrow.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You could finish the witness tomorrow on the basis

10 of the assumption that we could start the witness tomorrow?

11 MR. JORDASH: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: At the beginning. That Mr. Groome would take

13 20 minutes, well, that often will be half an hour, but that's

14 approximately in that -- okay. Which means that we would not have to

15 schedule a hearing for Friday.

16 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honours, I would ask for a hearing on

17 Friday to deal with this issue of --

18 JUDGE ORIE: The other matter. You would -- yes, I can imagine

19 that the matter is urgent for you. We would then have a very limited

20 hearing. I think there are two items which we would then hear. I take

21 it that one of them, the lengthy one, would be in private session, or

22 would you do it publicly?

23 MR. JORDASH: I think I can -- on the basis that we almost

24 certainly won't get into some of the minutia of people's salaries, but,

25 rather, we'll deal with overall issues concerning resources to the

Page 10725

1 Defence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know to what extent, but, again, I have

3 not -- I'm not yet fully briefed on the matter, to what extent personal

4 financial situations of the accused would play any role.

5 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps the best way to put it is that there could

6 be a mixture, but I would like to do most of it in public session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You would like to do most of it in public session.

8 Okay, that's fine. Then there's another matter, that is, the

9 continuation of the Theunens matter. I think you have received or you

10 will receive very soon an e-mail in which you are urged to see how you

11 could resolve that matter with the Prosecution. If not, that we would

12 spend time with that, perhaps, on Friday as well.

13 Friday would then be the most likely, but we have still to

14 arrange for that, morning session. Another -- but we have to see whether

15 we can get all the support and whether there's a courtroom available, but

16 I think there would be.

17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: This courtroom is available. Whether

19 Mr. Stanisic -- because it would be a fourth - you're asking for it - and

20 I earlier expressed, well, the hesitation of the Chamber to push in that

21 direction, and I called it a sensitive issue. You asked for it. It is a

22 administrative matter, although a very important administrative matter

23 which might end up in being more than administrative matter. Whether

24 Mr. Stanisic wants to follow the proceedings from the UNDU or whether he

25 wants to be present is still for him to consider.

Page 10726

1 MR. JORDASH: Yes. He's indicated that he will decide nearer the

2 time, depending on how he is feeling.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I see that. I think that we have dealt with

4 all the issues I ask you to consider.

5 Mr. Bakrac.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, now

7 that we are on the subject, perhaps it's a bit premature, perhaps I can

8 deal with it tomorrow, Mr. Simatovic asked me the following: If it's no

9 problem for the Trial Chamber, he does not need to attend the Friday

10 session that will deal with administrative matters.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I would say that to the extent that the further

12 update with Mr. Theunens is concerned, that seems to be primarily a

13 matter of the Stanisic Defence, and that would take little time. The

14 other matter is, I would say, for 98 or 99 per cent foreign to

15 Mr. Simatovic. So therefore that's understood, and the Chamber will

16 accept that, if he would prefer to be absent.

17 Any other matter?

18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I was wondering if Your Honour would

19 consider -- perhaps maybe an order is too strong, but OLAD did say they

20 were going to answer our query by -- not query, our application to review

21 the monthly allowance, by Friday, and I wonder if they might be invited

22 to deal with it by Friday morning so that the details can be discussed at

23 the hearing.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am aware that OLAD is working hard to get

25 information, including information from the Chamber as to past decisions

Page 10730

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7 Q. Anyway, Witness, sir, if I understood you correctly, I heard you

8 say that in early 1992 the Red Beret unit was formed in Ilok and this was

9 under the command of Zika Crnogorac and that this unit was guarding the

10 oil fields in Djeletovci; is that correct?

11 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

12 Q. Can you now please look at a document. This is document 2D371.

13 I think you can easily read it in English. You can see it better

14 than in the B/C/S. The Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and

15 Western Srem, government of the Serbian district, it has a register

16 number, in Dalj, on the 21st of January, 1992. Actually, that is the

17 date. And the law is being discussed, the articles are referred to of

18 the law, and this is a session of the government, and the conclusion is

19 that:

20 "The Ministry of Defence is hereby instructed to determine, in

21 co-operation with Pero Golubovic from Mirkovci, the strategic facilities

22 of the electricity supply system and the oil industry and to take

23 measures to provide security for them."

24 First of all, are you familiar with this document? And if you

25 are not, are you familiar with the conclusion?

Page 10731

1 A. No, I'm not.

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Page 10732

11 Pages 10732-10741 redacted. Closed session.

Page 10742

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24 Q. Thank you. Witness, sir, just one more question -- or, rather,

25 two to resolve -- two questions that we need to resolve. I'm not going

Page 10743

1 to say that you did this deliberately, but it seems that you testified

2 about some things about which you actually don't have any knowledge of.

3 And you said that Djordje Bozovic, Giska, was the commander of the

4 Serbian Volunteer Guard, that he was killed sometime in mid-1991 and that

5 was when Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, took over the Serbian Volunteer

6 Guard? Is that correct?

7 A. I said, and I could add, that I know that Giska was killed in an

8 action in the fighting in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, so now --

9 Q. All right. Witness, Giska was killed on the

10 15th of September, 1991. Does that refresh your recollection?

11 A. Yes, yes. I have just had a flash of memory about when Giska was

12 killed.

13 Q. And then these are two quite different formations which are not

14 the same. This is something that can be easily checked by just going to

15 the internet.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 2D386 now, please,

17 where we are looking at a document about the Serbian Volunteer Guard.

18 This has been taken from the Internet, Your Honours. It was formed on

19 the 11th of October, 1990. It was formed by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

20 Q. We are going to look at that in a minute. We'll be able to see

21 it on our screens. So the Serbian Volunteer Guard, if you look, was

22 formed - you will see at the bottom - on the 11th of October, 1990, by

23 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].

Page 10744

1 Q. Do we have any doubt -- reason to doubt this?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, let's avoid the situation where

3 Mrs. Google or Mr. Wikipedia provides the basis for the questioning.

4 I've got no idea what site this is, but I think that you could easily

5 find 20, 30, or 40 of such sites which would all contradict each other

6 depending on where it comes from. If the witness has any knowledge,

7 let's ask him about it. If not, then let's refrain from asking.

8 Tomorrow it would be WikiLeaks, perhaps, Mr. Bakrac. Let's try to keep

9 this a courtroom.

10 Mr. Groome.

11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can assist Mr. Bakrac, 65 ter

12 6140, which I was going to show the witness in redirect, is a

13 contemporaneous news article which I think would make the point that

14 Mr. Bakrac is trying to make, and I think in a more appropriate way.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Contemporaneous documents from the public domain are

16 already better than the present analysis on unknown websites.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I agree. I'm

19 just going to present to the witness this assertion and the witness can

20 then answer that.

21 Q. So the Serbian Volunteer Guard and the Serbian Guard or two

22 completely distinction organisations. The Serbian Volunteer Guard was,

23 as I said, founded on the 11th of October; and the Serbian Guard was

24 founded on the 4th of June, 1991. The first -- it was founded by the

25 SPO, and it was headed by Djordje Bozovic, Giska, and

Page 10745

1 Matic, Bale [phoen]. But you testified about two different things, about

2 two different political parties.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please ask a question to the witness

4 rather than to educate him.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you agree with me that what I have said is correct and that

7 you testified incorrectly in your statement?

8 A. The information about the formation of the SDG is something that

9 I don't know about, but I did know about the formation of the guard

10 headed by Giska, so the information that I did have is something that I

11 stated.

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Page 10746

11 Pages 10746-10747 redacted. Closed session.

Page 10748

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16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, any need to re-examine the witness?

17 MR. GROOME: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

18 Re-examination by Mr. Groome:

19 Q. JF-030, yesterday, at transcript page 10649, you were describing

20 how some Serbian MUP officers went to Eastern Slavonia, and you used the

21 term "volunteers," and you told us that the men were still paid by the

22 Serbian MUP. My question to you at this point is: Did these men who

23 went there have permission to leave their ordinarily assigned posts?

24 A. [In English] Of course. Without that permission, they will not

25 be able to move out, to go to some other area without knowledge or

Page 10749

1 permission of the superiors.

2 Q. And what was the procedure for a Serbian MUP officer who felt

3 that he wanted to go to Eastern Slavonia to seek permission? Did he

4 apply to his superior officer? What was -- was there a procedure in

5 place for that?

6 A. At that time it was enough only to say that you are willing to

7 do, you are willing to go there, and after awhile they would say, Yes,

8 you can go. Or, No. Depends on the, let's say, circumstances what for

9 he apply, what are his intention to do, and what is his background, and

10 what, in the basic -- what will be the final accomplish.

11 Q. Then my other question for you is: Today, at transcript page 40,

12 you were asked questions about the training camp at Batajnica, and you

13 described it as being owned by public security; do you recall that

14 evidence today?

15 A. Everything that belonged to MUP, Ministry of Internal Affairs,

16 under the minister of Internal Affairs from that time, they were also DB,

17 public, and everybody, so that belonged to the MUP, all those buildings

18 used to belong, and camps, used to the belong to the MUP, so.

19 Q. What is your understanding of which section, public security or

20 state security, that Rajo Bozovic belonged to?

21 A. During that time, as I says, they were the public security but

22 for it's -- as I says yesterday, it's not so easy to give exact

23 translation of these units. Everything used to belong to milicija,

24 police on that time, by then milicia. "Posebna jedinica milicia," that

25 mean the -- some, like, "special." If you translate it directly, it

Page 10750

1 would be "special." But this is not special for certain purposes, for

2 specialty, whatever they would need to do, or whatever, they were formed,

3 that for I'm saying that everything used to belong to the MUP, Ministry

4 of Internal Affairs of Serbia.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions. Your Honour, I would

7 say that with respect to the distinction between the Serbian Guard and

8 it's Serbian Volunteer Guard, tomorrow at some point I would like to

9 tender from the bar 6140 and 6141. I've just uploaded it, so I would ask

10 my colleagues in the Defence to review that tonight to see whether they

11 would object to that. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would that resolve your problems?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes,

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Picard has one question for you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, I have a question

18 for you. You stated a while ago today that Seselj had no combat unit,

19 that people claimed to be Seselj's Men, but that this was not true and

20 that he didn't command anything at all. In your written statements you

21 say the opposite, on several occasions, by the way.

22 You, in paragraph 34, talk about your 2003 statements. You say

23 that there were a great number of Seselj's volunteers that came from

24 Serbia during the battle of Vukovar. You also mention Seselj's Chetniks

25 in paragraph 31. And so on and so forth. So I don't quite understand

Page 10751

1 what you said here a while ago. There's a misunderstanding or something.

2 Maybe you could explain this to me.

3 THE WITNESS: I can explain to you this very easy. During that

4 time, Srpska Radikalna, Stranka, Mr. Seselj, and all other, let's say,

5 patriotic parties, they were trying to invite volunteers to go to protect

6 the Serbian people in the area where they were suffering from other

7 cessationist groups. When I was saying Seselj didn't command to nobody,

8 that was definitely he didn't command to nobody, but he collect them,

9 therefore they call them Seseljevci. And also --

10 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly, he

11 was not physically the commander of these units, but he was the man who

12 had organised all of these units?

13 THE WITNESS: Exactly. He was not educated military. He

14 couldn't command. And also, from time to time, people were coming just

15 to give to themselves importance and were saying, We are Chetniks from

16 Seselj. Even he didn't know nothing about them.

17 JUDGE PICARD: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

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