1 Wednesday, 2 February 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
10 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
11 and Franko Simatovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Before we hear the testimony of the next witness, I have a few
14 procedural matters which I would like to deal with. The first is about
15 the urgent Stanisic motion for equality of arms and immediate suspension
16 of the trial, with the annexes attached to it. The motion was filed on
17 the 1st of February, 2011.
18 In relation to the Stanisic Defence's request for the Chamber to
19 quash the Registry's finding -- funding decisions in this case and to
20 compel the Registry to provide adequate resources to facilitate a fair
21 trial pursuant to Article 20 and 21 of this Statute, the Chamber hereby
22 invites the -- invites OLAD to make any submissions on this issue by
23 close of business on Tuesday, the 8th of February, 2011.
24 In relation to Stanisic Defence request for suspension of all
25 aspects of the trial process, other than the examination of the remaining
1 Prosecution witnesses, the Chamber hereby invites the Prosecution to
2 indicate today in court whether it seeks to respond to specifically this
3 part of the motion.
4 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution does, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: When do you think that you would be able to file
6 your response?
7 MR. GROOME: Before the end of this week.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before the end of this week.
9 Then I move to the next item.
10 I take it, Mr. Registrar, that OLAD will be informed about the
11 invitation and about the dead-line.
12 We then move on to Witness JF-030. The Chamber would like to
13 receive written submissions from the parties on the possibilities the
14 Chamber may have to rely on non-attested parts of the statement of
15 Witness JF-030.
16 Any indication as to when you could make such submissions? It's
17 not the most urgent matter.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I would say one week from today.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Bakrac?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if acceptable to you,
22 we seek ten days, which means until the end of next week.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ten days is granted.
24 Mr. Jordash?
25 MR. JORDASH: The same, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ten days is granted to the Stanisic Defence as well.
2 Then I finally would deal with some issues relating to the
3 documents which were marked for identification and which were presented
4 in relation to the report of the Expert Theunens, and especially those
5 tendered by the Simatovic Defence, documents which are listed in a table
6 annexed to the filing of the 24th of November of 2010.
7 There is -- among these documents, there is a series which, to
8 say it short, are documents collected by the Defence investigator from a
9 potential Defence witness. I list them briefly. That is D167, D174,
10 D182, D185 through D193, and D195. I did not mention D146, which would
11 fall into this category. But you find D146, although with the same
12 problem, already on the list of questions that was submitted to the
13 parties by the Chamber for the next housekeeping session, and you find it
14 listed under number 16.
15 These documents I just mentioned are objected by the Prosecution
16 because they have not received further information on the source,
17 although for some of them there are other reasons of objection as well,
18 but I focus at this moment on this reason.
19 The issue of the lack of information on the source was addressed
20 on the 27th of January in relation to D190 MFI after the
21 Simatovic Defence used D190 MFI
22 to and including -789. And on this occasion, the Prosecution indicated
23 that it was willing to withdraw its objections if information on the
24 source could be provided, even off the record, at least that it would
25 consider to then withdraw its objections, of course always depending on
1 the content of the information.
2 The Chamber would like to know whether the Simatovic Defence has
3 the requested -- have provided the information on the source requested by
4 the Prosecution.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, pursuant to our
6 instructions, I contacted Mr. Groome on the break and gave him
7 information from whom we got that, and Mr. Groome said he would check or,
8 rather, compare the signature on that document to other signatures by
9 Mr. Karadzic and then that he would make public his position, but we
10 haven't had feedback since.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I haven't had an opportunity to compare
13 the signature of D190 yet with other known signatures of Dr. Karadzic,
14 but that is something I could do relatively quickly.
15 JUDGE ORIE: When could we hear from you?
16 MR. GROOME: Tomorrow, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Tomorrow.
18 Then, the next category was the documents which were received
19 pursuant to the Defence request for assistance dated the
20 10th of March, 2008. I list them: It's D183 and D195. And the
21 Prosecution has objected to admission of these documents until it has
22 received from the Simatovic Defence a copy of the 10th of March, 2008
23 RFA response.
24 Has the Simatovic Defence provided a copy of the RFA response to
25 the Prosecution?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will check during
2 the break with my Case Manager. We asked them a couple of days ago to
3 compile all the RAFs [as interpreted], and then I will give you
4 information whether these sets are complete and ready. But we have
5 certainly done everything to collect all the RAFs to be able to submit
6 them as required.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't know whether you asked for all of them
8 but at least for the RFAs in relation to D183 and D195. When do you
9 think you could provide that information finally? I mean, that you are
10 preparing it, this is highly appreciated but does not enable Mr. Groome
11 yet to give us his opinion.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I know. I
13 received a communication, written communication, from Mr. Groome. It's a
14 list of about 20 documents, I believe, in which -- with regard to which
15 they request assistance from us. But I believe that we have given
16 everything, not only D183 and D195, but everything they requested. But
17 during the break I will contact our Case Manager to see what exactly the
18 state of affairs is. And if anything has not been sent to Mr. Groome
19 yet, I'll make sure it is sent soon.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could you make the same effort to
21 analyse what you've received and perhaps --
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we've been trying to take a close look
23 at this, this material, towards the end of our case and Ms. Marcus has
24 been doing this and she believes we have not received this material yet.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we then -- if you would please verify
1 together during the break what's missing, and then we'll hear from you
2 when you'll be able to give the Chamber your final position in relation
3 to D185 and D195.
4 I have no further procedural matters on my list. Is there any
5 other matter?
6 Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, it's concerning our application to
8 suspend. It's really this: That there are two dead-lines this week.
9 One is to get back to the Trial Chamber concerning the subpoena issue in
10 relation to JF-051, and the other is a dead-line for this Friday,
11 4th of February, which is in response to the Prosecution's
12 20th application to add to the 65 ter exhibit list.
13 Would it be acceptable to the Chamber to adjourn those dates
14 until, say, next week when Your Honours have received the response or the
15 views from the Prosecution? At the very least, a delay would be
16 extremely helpful to us. And if Your Honours are eventually with us in
17 terms of suspension, then our application will have -- well, it will not
18 thwart the purpose of our application.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just as a practical matter, this I'll
21 put in my submission, but it occurred to me last night, and I've only
22 been able to give Mr. Jordash's lengthy submission a cursory view because
23 of other obligations, but it seems to me that Mr. Knoops is still a
24 co-counsel on the case and it seems like these types of written
25 applications are -- is he not in a position to assist Mr. Jordash? I
1 have no qualms with the pressure that Mr. Jordash is under, but it seems
2 that there is a co-counsel in the case and can he not be of service until
3 he is finally discharged, if he is discharged, from the case?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I know that an explanation for the
5 discontinuation of his then-position as lead counsel is one of the
6 attachments to your submission, but could you please briefly respond to
7 Mr. Groome.
8 MR. JORDASH: In this way, I'll respond, Your Honours: Firstly,
9 Mr. Knoops stopped working at the time we took on our consultant who is
10 proposed to be a co-counsel. It was explained to OLAD at the time that
11 as a consequence of the funding it simply wasn't possible for Mr. Knoops
12 to continue. And he had other commitments which would pay him a
13 reasonable living income. And so the position we're in now is that he,
14 Mr. Knoops, isn't engaged in the case and I don't know what his working
15 schedule is at the moment. But I know that his position, which I accept
16 is reasonable, is that he needs to earn a living, and working on this
17 case doesn't do that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not at length discuss what that means,
19 but the Chamber was informed that you would be lead counsel, Mr. Knoops
20 would be co-counsel. The Chamber at that time was not informed, at least
21 not by you, if I understand you well, that Mr. Knoops would not take any
22 further activity in the case. Which, of course, comes a bit as a
23 surprise if someone is still at the -- still in the team mentioned as
24 being co-counsel.
25 I mean, that whatever internal matters may have caused this is
1 another issue, but if I also understood the situation well, that one of
2 the reasons why Mr. Knoops would remain co-counsel was that there was a
3 fear that there was a risk of discontinuity in the dealing with the case.
4 Now if you tell me that Mr. Knoops didn't work on the case anymore but he
5 was left on the list as co-counsel, which gives the impression that he is
6 involved in the case, and then without any further explanation we hear a
7 couple of months later that he is not on the case anymore, let me say the
8 least that this is surprising information under the present
10 MR. JORDASH: Well, if I can explain that a little further. I
11 probably overstated the case in one sense. Mr. Knoops has a very
12 discrete job which he is working n and he does that on a pro-bono basis;
13 it's not directly concerning the substance of the case, nor is it
14 concerning procedural issues such as motions. It's something to do with
15 the investigation. But the situations arose because when we went to OLAD
16 and explained the situation, and I and Mr. Knoops requested that
17 Mr. Gosnell be made co-counsel and confirmed he was ready, OLAD refused
18 that application and said, Well, despite that, we want Mr. Knoops to
19 remain as co-counsel, despite the fact that you've told us that his role
20 is now going to be that of a consultant; and we told OLAD precisely what
21 that discrete role was going to be. Despite that, they refused to allow
22 him to be re-assigned as a consultant and refused to allow Mr. Gosnell to
23 be co-counsel and set a time-period, initially three to four months,
24 before Mr. Gosnell could be a co-counsel and then, I think, eventually
25 settled on three months.
1 That time-period, I don't know why that time-period was chosen
2 but it was against what both Mr. Knoops and I were saying is knowledge --
3 consistent with his knowledge of the case.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The matter may need further attention. Let's focus
5 at this moment on what you asked, that is, to -- for two dead-lines. The
6 first one, subpoena issue in relation to Witness JF-051, and the second
7 one --
8 MR. JORDASH: -- is the Friday the 4th of February dead-line.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The 20th application - I'm a bad bookkeeper - is
10 about --
11 MR. JORDASH: -- admission of -- I think it's either addition to
12 the 65 ter list or admission of the evidence as exhibits. I forget which
13 one. But it's one of those, relating to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could you help us out? I could check
15 that and find it on my computer if need be, but if you could tell me,
16 then ...
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe it's the additional excerpts
18 from the notebooks. I have someone checking it now. If I'm wrong, I'll
19 stand up again.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's the 47 pages from where you gave notice that
21 you wanted to use them and you wanted to ...
22 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Or is that -- yes.
24 MR. JORDASH: It's not the Mladic notebooks. It's the Pecanac
25 and Banja Luka evidence.
1 MR. GROOME: Oh. Then I am familiar with this. It's, again, a
2 relatively small collection. One of them we're not asking for anything
3 other than to have them MFI
4 of pages but I think it's somewhere in the order of 30 pages. But I can
5 get precise information in a few minutes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the dead-lines for this week are moved
7 forward to Monday noon
8 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's not that the Chamber doesn't understand there's
10 a lot of work to be done. That's -- don't understand this wrongly. But
11 that is our decision. And for the -- if I could say the great
12 suspension, the Chamber will pay very specific and thorough attention to
13 that. These are not matters which you can decide in five or seven
14 minutes. One of the complications perhaps also being that of course
15 today the president has delivered a decision on -- at least I've seen a
16 decision on the -- on the matter also related to funding. So therefore
17 we'd like to look at that and we'd like to look at all the annexes, we
18 want to hear OLAD. Meanwhile, we accommodate you perhaps not very much
19 but at least give you a time until after the weekend.
20 Any other matter? If not, then for the next witness we move into
21 closed session.
22 [Closed session]
11 Pages 10916-10982 redacted. Closed session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 I may take it that we might have to go into private session soon,
12 Mr. Groome, but I wanted to clearly make -- I wanted to make it clear
13 that we have now finished with the closed session testimony of the
14 witness. I was informed that -- the Chamber was informed that you wanted
15 to make submissions but on a matter which makes it likely that you would
16 like to do it in private session.
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 10984-10990 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session. Thank
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 For one moment, Mr. Petrovic, I thought you would offer your
12 apologies to the interpreters for not having waited until tomorrow in
13 giving your apologies to me and to the Chamber and to all the others.
14 We adjourn until tomorrow, Thursday, the 3rd of February, quarter
15 past 2.00 in the afternoon, this same Courtroom II.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.
17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day
18 of February, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.