1 Tuesday, 8 February 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Before we continue to hear the evidence of Witness JF-024, I'd
13 like to briefly deal with a few procedural matters.
14 Yes, the first one. In relation to the answers of Witness JF-024
15 about before or after Operation Storm, there was an issue of whether the
16 parties would agree on that. I do understand that there is agreement
17 between the parties, that they stipulate that Operation Storm started and
18 may I take it that you agreed on the 4th of August, 1995. I think
19 hostilities, operational activities, started in the very early morning
20 hours of that day. That's agreed and hereby on the record.
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Then, Mr. Jordash, two times ten minutes; you get that later
24 today. We do that before a break. Then you'll get exactly the
25 20 minutes.
1 MR. JORDASH: I don't know if it's inconvenient if I request that
2 it be done tomorrow.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do it tomorrow.
4 MR. JORDASH: Thank you very much.
5 Then as far as Witness JF-052 is concerned, the Chamber
6 understands that the Simatovic Defence has informed the Prosecution but
7 also the Chamber that it would not request the re-call of Witness JF-052,
8 which means that the Chamber has to instruct VWS to inform the witness
9 that the instructions given earlier not to communicate with anyone about
10 his testimony are lifted -- are hereby lifted and VWS is invited to
11 inform the witness.
12 Mr. Groome, the Prosecution, by e-mail of the 4th of February,
13 has indicated that it would withdraw Witness JF-020.
14 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the Chamber hereby declares moot that
16 part of the Rule 92 ter motion of the 25th of May, 2007, which relates to
17 Witness JF-020.
18 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Jordash, you have indicated on the
20 28th of January through an informal communication that you intended to
21 file a motion seeking an order from the Trial Chamber for disclosure of
22 the existing information as indicated by Mr. Theunens in his response to
23 your questions and you would do that in due course. Could you tell us
24 what due course practically means.
25 MR. JORDASH: Well, it depends very much on Your Honours'
1 decision on the outstanding motion to suspend all matters other than the
2 remaining witnesses.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that matter, of course, has been
4 complicated because the matter which was before the president is now
5 before the Chamber, so it doesn't give us any guidance any more, that is,
6 about the financial matters. We have to look at it in context.
7 MR. JORDASH: Well, Your Honour, the reason we -- I don't know if
8 this is helpful or not, but the reason we filed it in front of
9 Your Honours was so that Your Honours could see the full picture,
10 although we still maintain that the two can be decided separately.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, let's be -- those matters have been
12 raised at a relatively late stage. The Chamber will carefully look at
13 it. And, of course, we don't have the whole of the picture; at the same
14 time we are still waiting for an answer by the Victims and Witness
15 Section -- from OLAD. Until we have suspended anything, matters are not
16 suspended. That sounds as if it goes without saying. We are talking
17 here about a -- you are seeking an order from the Trial Chamber for
18 disclosure of existing information. That is not a very complex matter.
19 Apparently you have clearly identified what your problem is in relation
20 to Mr. Theunens.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Having consulted with my colleagues, the Chamber
23 expects you to file that within, well, let's say preferably this week.
24 And if you are unable to do that, then by next Monday.
25 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: This Monday. This is not to ignore or to -- but at
2 the same time we are trying to resolve the matter you've raised as
3 quickly as we can, but we can't do it in half a day. And meanwhile we'll
4 proceed, although we'll certainly keep in mind what your request is and
5 we'll certainly not ignore that. We'll look at it always in the context
6 of what is there before us.
7 Next item. Mr. Groome, the Chamber noted that you have with the
8 present witness not tendered all the related exhibits. 65 ter numbers
9 1234 through 1237 have not been tendered. That may be a well-considered
10 decision, I just draw your attention to that. And if it is as we expect,
11 well-considered, then it needs no follow-up. If, however, it would be a
12 mistake, then we might -- then at least you are aware of it by now.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I thank you for pointing that out to
14 me. And if I could have an opportunity during this first session just to
15 review my notes and I can report to the Chamber at the end of this
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Finally, the communication between the Simatovic Defence and the
19 Prosecution about the Theunens exhibits. D183 and D195, where the
20 Prosecution would like to receive the answers to the request for
21 assistance launched by the Defence, dated the 10th of March, 2008
22 you received the information you needed, Mr. Groome?
23 MR. GROOME: No, we have not, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I thought you would sit together, and I
25 didn't ...
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We did have a
2 meeting with the OTP yesterday in the afternoon between 5.00 and 7.00. I
3 think that the meeting was a constructive one. And we are currently
4 waiting. In our old correspondence before Mr. Petrovic and I got
5 involved in the case, there was some important information. We cannot
6 find that correspondence. And we sent it to the National Council for
7 Co-operation with The Hague Tribunal and as soon as we get a reply from
8 them and the other material, we will inform the Prosecution. We are
9 doing our best to obtain it as quickly as possible.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Does this mean that due to the complications caused
11 by the passing away of Mr. Jovanovic, that you couldn't find the answer
12 given to the Defence by the Serbian authorities?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's fully right,
14 Your Honours. I found a notation that these documents were part of the
15 request that was resolved on the date you mentioned, 10th of March, 2008.
16 However, I was unable to find in the documents that remained after the
17 late Jovanovic, I was unable to find the request and the reply based on
18 which one could see that these two documents had been obtained from the
19 National Council for Co-operation. This is why I applied to them once
20 again, asking them to confirm that it was them who had sent those two
21 documents to the Defence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Groome wanted more. Mr. Groome wanted a
23 copy of the response to the RFA.
24 Is that right, Mr. Groome?
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So instead of seeking a confirmation, perhaps
2 you ask for a copy of their response to your request for assistance.
3 Now, have you asked this before, or is it now that you're asking?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. We asked for that
5 just now, not earlier, because I had it written down that this had
6 arrived on the 10th of March, and I believed that we had it in the
7 documents that remained after the late Jovanovic. However, once I went
8 through those documents, I couldn't find it. And as soon as I realised
9 that, I applied to get a copy of that reply of the 10th of March, 2008
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the reason why I was asking, because you
11 used the words "once again" on page 15, line -- page 5, line 16 and 17.
12 May I take it that this matter can be resolved easily within one
13 or two weeks? Because it's difficult to understand that such a copy
14 could not be produced on a relatively short notice.
15 The other matter, in the same context, was information about
16 documents collected by the Defence investigator from the potential
17 Defence witness. We have a series -- D190 had been resolved because you
18 had provided the information, Mr. Bakrac. For all the others, that is,
19 D167, D174, D182, D185, D189, D191 through 193, and D195, have you given
20 the information Mr. Groome asked for?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will reply to your
22 first question. I hope -- I sincerely hope that within a week, two weeks
23 at the most, we would receive a copy of this request -- rather, a copy of
24 the reply from 2008. That's the first question.
25 The second question is the evidence provided by potential
1 witnesses to the investigator. We spoke about that to Mr. Groome
2 yesterday and I asked him whether the information as to from whom these
3 documents had been obtained would be enough to have them admitted into
4 evidence, and Mr. Groome and his team, if I understood them well, said to
5 us that that wouldn't be sufficient. Then we agreed, and if the Chamber
6 doesn't see a problem with it, that these documents should remain MFI,
7 marked as MFI
8 in time we could admit these documents into evidence.
9 It is not that important for the Defence -- I don't know what
10 your position is, Your Honours, but for the Defence it is not vital to
11 have these documents admitted at this very point. If the information
12 about their provenance and from whom we had obtained them is not enough
13 for the Prosecution, then we will make sure that these witnesses come
14 here to testify and that we can admit these documents through those
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, what's the problem if you know who
17 provided these documents?
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if the documents were provided by an
19 official source, an official government source, I think the Prosecution
20 probably would not be objecting, but they are provided by individuals.
21 And when it comes to collections of documents held by private individuals
22 that were not found in the archives of the government, the Prosecution
23 would want an opportunity to question those witnesses as to how they came
24 upon those before -- upon those documents prior to withdrawing its
25 objection to those documents.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the Chamber still doesn't understand
2 that if you tendered these documents that you don't want to tell the
3 Chamber, apart from telling Mr. Groome, where you obtained them from.
4 Why don't you just tell it? You asked the Chamber to decide on
5 admission, you tendered the documents, and then you say, Where I got them
6 from, I'm not going to tell you, or perhaps later or ... why is that?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can consider this
8 with Mr. Petrovic and with Mr. Simatovic. I can consider this situation
9 with them. Yesterday when we spoke to the OTP I told them I would tell
10 you from whom I obtained them if you tell me that you wouldn't object to
11 their use. They said it wasn't sufficient and then I said, Well, they
12 will then remain MFI
13 me to do that, I will reconsider this with Mr. Petrovic and with
14 Mr. Simatovic and disclose to the Prosecution the required information.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the Prosecution, in order to form an
16 opinion about whether or not they oppose, they are asking for certain
17 information. But, of course, apart from what the Prosecution says, of
18 course the Chamber, who has to decide on the admission, whether or not
19 there are any objections or not, the Chamber would like to know where the
20 evidence comes from as well. So it's not only -- although that's how it
21 was initiated at this moment, it's not only a matter of you providing
22 information to Mr. Groome, but also -- it's also a matter of you
23 tendering documentary evidence, asking the Chamber to decide to admit it
24 and then not to tell us how you obtained it, which means that it's --
25 finally, if Mr. Groome forms an opinion about authenticity or ... of
1 these documents, it's finally -- it's not Mr. Groome who decides on
2 whether they are authentic or not, even if he would give up his
3 objections. And the Chamber might want to know, and perhaps becomes more
4 and more interested hearing the whole discussion, to know where these
5 documents come from.
6 Please reconsider your position and tell the Chamber later today
7 whether you are willing to give us the source, and to Mr. Groome as well.
8 And then I do understand that in your negotiations with Mr. Groome you
9 can put conditions like, if you want this, we only do it if you would not
10 further object, but, of course, the Chamber is not a negotiating partner.
11 The Chamber would just very much like to be informed.
12 We leave it to that at this very moment.
13 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a minute or two
15 more of your indulgence, please. I have been avoiding to talk to you
16 about our situation, but now that we've touched upon this, I want this to
17 be put on the record. As you know, Mr. Petrovic and I got involved in
18 this case when the Prosecution case was already underway. We never had
19 opportunity to work with these witnesses as Defence witnesses. We had no
20 time and no possibility to do that. We contacted them via investigators
21 only on a limited issue of some witness's testimony, if we believed we
22 could get some information from them to verify the credibility of
23 witnesses who testified here.
24 I had to inform you of this, namely, that our contact with these
25 potential witnesses was extremely limited. It really boiled down only to
1 the upcoming witnesses and not to the preparation of our Defence, and
2 this is why we never had a chance to talk to them about these documents,
3 the documents that our team obtained in order to be put to some witness.
4 However, I will consult my colleague Petrovic before the end of
5 business today, and our client Mr. Simatovic, and I will give you our
6 position. And thank you for granting me these additional two minutes,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then we can move -- unless there's any
9 other urgent matter to be ...
10 Mr. Groome.
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I can report on those 65 ters if the
12 Court wishes me to at this point.
13 With respect to 65 ters 1234, -35, and -36, Your Honour, these
14 photographs are part of P2152 now in evidence, and a description of these
15 photographs can be found in P2151 in evidence, and they can be found in
16 the order that I've mentioned them, on pages 6, 5, and 11.
17 And with respect to 1237, Your Honour, these stills are in
18 evidence now as Prosecution Exhibit P2153.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Thank you, Mr. Groome, for this
21 Any further matter? If not, we turn into closed session.
22 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11086-11154 redacted. Closed session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 Mr. Petrovic, could you be a bit more precise about the time you
22 would need tomorrow. You've had now half an hour.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask
24 you to allow me for a window of about two hours of effective work. I
25 will try to rephrase my questions overnight in order to be as efficient
1 as possible, and I will do my best not to exceed this period of two
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, which opens the possibility that we
4 could start with the next witness tomorrow. How much time would you need
5 for the next witness?
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I've been informed by both Defence
7 counsel that they do not intend to cross-examine the witness. And
8 Ms. Friedman will be taking the witness, and she estimates that it will
9 be approximately 30 minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that we would complete our programme
11 of this week well in time.
12 Mr. Jordash, then, of course, the two times ten minutes for you
13 we would need. This will also assist the Victims and Witness Section to
14 make their planing with the witnesses.
15 We adjourn for the day. And we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday,
16 the 9th of February, at quarter past 2.00 in this same Courtroom II.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day
19 of February, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.