1 Wednesday, 9 February 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
8 everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Before we return into closed session to hear the remainder of the
13 the evidence of the the present witness, I'd like to briefly deal with a
14 few procedural matters. Yesterday, Mr. Bakrac, there was the the issue
15 of reconsidering your position about the source of some of the documents
16 you tendered through Mr. Theunens. Any further report on that?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I went over the
18 documents again, over the documents enumerated by you. There were nine
19 of them. As for D183 and D195, we sent a request yesterday to the
20 National Council to check and to tell us whether the previous Defence
21 team had received those documents from them, whether they had been
22 disclosed. And then there remain nine documents which I -- which I said
23 were received from potential witnesses. I said that clumsily. I went
24 over those documents yesterday and I established that in relation to four
25 documents we can address the National Council because those are documents
1 from the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Justice, Ministry of the
2 Interior, and Palilula municipality. Therefore, National Council could
3 be of assistance in that matter.
4 There remain four documents from private sources and the persons
5 that provided us those four documents were identified by me clumsily as
6 potential witnesses. However, they are simply persons who gave us
7 permission to use those documents, without either me or Mr. Petrovic
8 talking to them at length to see whether there is a potential for calling
9 them as witnesses for the Defence.
10 So this involves the last four documents which are D167, D192,
11 D191, and D182. These four, if you agree, could be admitted later on in
12 the trial. And I propose this knowing full well that you can refuse to
13 admit them based on the fact that we are not disclosing information about
14 their provenance. As for the other documents, I request the
15 National Council to provide us with a reply within maximum of 14 days to
16 see whether these documents could be found in the archives of the
17 institutions I enumerated.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, for the others you say we can address
19 the relevant ministries, apparently you did not receive it from them.
20 You also received it from private sources but on the basis of the content
21 of those documents --
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore you are just not willing to tell us
24 from whom you got all these documents. So apart from whether there's an
25 opportunity to verify whether the same document is found in any archives,
1 but you're just saying, I'm not going to tell you from whom I got them.
2 That's on the record. The Chamber will consider how to deal with that.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so. These
4 four documents come from Republika Srpska and Republic of
5 Serbian Krajina. I'm not aware whether archives exist. We will try to
6 verify that as well. Perhaps it sounds a bit arrogant that I do not wish
7 to disclose the source of information, but I'm simply trying to be
8 cautious. And should these witnesses indeed -- should these persons
9 indeed become witness, we will try to admit the documents through them.
10 On two of these documents it can be seen that the document was
11 sent to the person named in the documents. D167 says so clearly. The
12 name of the person is indicated there. But I wish to proceed cautiously
13 until these people become indeed our witnesses, knowing full well that
14 you could refuse to admit these documents into evidence later on.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the Chamber suggests to you that you
17 would withdraw the tendering of all of these documents. And that once
18 the conditions are fulfilled, that is, whether you have found similar
19 copies in archives or that you do not even know whether these archives
20 exist or whether you call anyone for those -- anyone to introduce them as
21 witnesses, therefore if you withdraw, there is no prejudice in
22 re-tendering them at a later stage and then we'll see whether we use the
23 same numbers. But if you would not do that, you should not be surprised
24 if the Chamber would deny admission of all of them. And I'm talking
25 about the ones you received from the private sources. I'm not talking
1 about the RFA related documents because we do understand that you are
2 handicapped there by not knowing exactly what the history is. So we'll
3 leave that for the time being. We might leave that open. But I'm
4 talking about the other ones, the ones you just mentioned where you will
5 address ministries in order to see whether the same or similar documents
6 are found and the ones where you say, we would have to further consider
7 with those who provided those documents whether or not we could use them.
8 But my suggestion is that you withdraw the tendering of all these
9 documents without prejudice.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you kindly tell
11 me whether the Chamber prefer me to do that in writing or can I do it
12 orally? Can I make this withdrawal orally until we receive what you said
13 we should receive?
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, if you want to withdraw the tendering of those
15 documents orally, you can do it. It's then on the record. And of course
16 it will then be -- this withdrawal will be referred to in the decision
17 with Theunens' documents.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these four documents
19 coming from private sources for which I cannot establish quickly whether
20 they exist in any archives, could I then withdraw their tendering. And
21 the remaining four and 183 and 195, we should then wait for the
22 National Council's response, because we had already requested their
23 response, and we expect their response within seven days. So that's what
24 pertains to those four documents. And the remaining four, which had been
25 issued by different countries, different states, then I'm hereby applying
1 to withdraw their tendering.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course, the others, I suggested that
3 you withdraw the others as well, but of course you're not in any way
4 bound to follow any suggestions. But the Chamber is not in a position to
5 say whether you should or should not follow that suggestion.
6 The four are on the record. We'll see what we'll do with the
8 Then I move on. Housekeeping session, we are thinking on having
9 a housekeeping session on the 23rd of February, but we would first
10 inquire with the parties whether that creates any problem.
11 Yes, Mr. Jordash.
12 MR. JORDASH: I've forgotten completely what date it is today.
13 9th, thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It would be Wednesday in two weeks from now.
15 MR. JORDASH: We were hoping, to be honest, that we would have
16 the housekeeping sooner rather than later. I had hoped to head to
18 that isn't possible --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying -- that's exactly the reason why
20 we're asking you. That's -- you would rather have it earlier than --
21 MR. JORDASH: My plan was to leave in around 10 to 14 days. If
22 it could be had within that period, that would be good for us. Thank
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I give you our
2 position, could you first give us an indication as to when we would have
3 92 bis hearings -- 98 bis hearings, otherwise 23rd of February is fine
4 with us, but we first need to know about the 98 bis hearings in order to
5 give you our position. Looking at it from today's perspective, the 23rd
6 is fine with us.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And earlier, as Mr. Jordash suggested, would
8 that cause you any problems?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the week starting the
10 21st of February is fine with us. The 23rd is a Wednesday, the 21st is a
11 Monday, and this -- if this is what Mr. Jordash had in mind, that's fine
12 with us.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Jordash had
14 on his mind the week before that.
15 Mr. Jordash, could you please -- you were heading for the second
16 half of next week, isn't it?
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. JORDASH: I certainly will be around all of next week.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't see an obstacle, I don't see
22 a conflict. I would like to know so that my colleague and I can plan the
23 98 bis submissions, but I don't see a problem for holding it a week
24 earlier, perhaps at the end of the week preceding that, say Thursday.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see.
1 Mr. Groome, any preference?
2 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be ready at any
3 date set by the Chamber.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll consider it and we'll inform the
5 parties already about the housekeeping session this week, but a
6 Scheduling Order for the following procedural steps may be issued only
7 next week. Of course, the one is also related to the other because we
8 cannot think about 98 bis until the case of the Prosecution has been
10 I have no further matters at this moment. I have still got two
11 times ten minutes for you, Mr. Jordash, but I'd rather keep that, for the
12 time being, most likely later today. Because if I understood you well,
13 Mr. Groome, for the next witness half an hour was the new schedule for
15 MR. GROOME: I think the more accurate estimate at this stage
16 would be about 40 minutes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: 40 minutes. Do I also understand that the
18 Stanisic Defence does not intend to cross-examination the next witness,
19 if matters do not change?
20 MR. JORDASH: If matters do not change, then no.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And the same is true for the Simatovic Defence?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We will not cross-examine either.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will --
24 Mr. Jordash.
25 MR. JORDASH: Could I also indicate that we will only seek to
1 advance submissions on the one point which is the issue relating to the
2 addition of exhibits to the 65 ter and admission into the courtroom of
3 those exhibits.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's the 20th motion, and you are not going to
5 make any submissions about the other matter which we would have to hear
6 anyhow in closed session?
7 MR. JORDASH: The other matter, it occurred to us that we were
8 not going to be seeking a remedy or any direction or order from the Court
9 which would assist the Defence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. So one times ten minutes are
11 off. We turn into closed session.
12 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11165-11202 redacted. Closed session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Jordash, ten minutes' oral submission on the Prosecution's
16 20th motion for leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit list and for
17 admission of exhibits from the bar table with confidential annexes filed
18 21st of January, 2011.
19 You may proceed.
20 MR. JORDASH: The application is opposed. We oppose the
21 application but also are mindful of previous rulings which mean that the
22 merits of the application appear to fall fairly and squarely with the
23 Prosecution, but nonetheless, we oppose the application. We oppose the
24 application on two principled basis. Firstly, that the Prosecution have
25 not demonstrated that the application is in the interests of justice, and
1 in particular that the accused's right to be informed of the charges is
2 effectively trampled, we would submit, by the application, or by the
3 grant of the application.
4 And, secondly, that - and this is a subset, as such, of the
5 first - that the prejudice to the accused cannot at this stage be
7 And, thirdly -- I know I said two, but thirdly, that the
8 Prosecution have failed to show good cause for the application being made
9 at this stage.
10 Dealing with the first, the interests of justice generally. The
11 application, we submit, must, as we've submitted before, be seen in light
12 of the -- what we would characterise as massive disclosures which have
13 occurred during this case. In particular, we submit that the Prosecution
14 have effectively continuously been allowed to disclose and rely upon new
15 evidence, which, even putting aside the Mladic diaries, runs into the
16 hundreds of pages, but with the Mladic diaries runs into thousands of
18 The Prosecution's application effectively seeks to reduce the
19 accused's right to be informed of the charges to a right to be informed
20 of the charges at some time during the Prosecution case. It is the
21 Prosecution's submission that providing -- and it has been the
22 Prosecution's submission throughout, that providing the Defence has an
23 opportunity to investigate the late disclosed material, then no prejudice
24 arises. In our submission, that's completely incorrect. Of course there
25 is the prejudice which arises through late disclosure, causing
1 significant investigation and work by the Defence team to meet that
3 The thousands of pages which I referred to a moment ago has given
4 rise and will continue to give rise to hundreds of hours of new work for
5 a Defence team which has finite resources. The case commenced on a
6 certain basis with a certain volume of material. The resources allocated
7 were based on that volume. And at some point, when the disclosures reach
8 a certain size, those resources must clearly become inadequate.
9 But in our submission that is only one of the prejudices which
10 arise through the late disclosure of a volume of material, and especially
11 material that's served at the close of the Prosecution case. And those
12 clearly concern what the right to be informed of the charges is
13 principally about, which is that an accused has a right to be informed of
14 the detail of the charges promptly, and that is before the commencement
15 of the Prosecution case. Whilst of course there will be exceptions, what
16 ought to be an exception, in our submission, has now become the norm.
17 The Prosecution motion, in our submission, selects only an aspect
18 of the prejudice, because the remainder of the prejudice, in our
19 submission, cannot, as the Prosecution case is about to end, be
20 rectified. And that's particularly pertinent in the case of the
21 Pecanac collection. The Prosecution accept that they cannot establish
22 even authenticity with those documents. So at the close of the
23 Prosecution case, the Prosecution want to introduce documents which they
24 accept they cannot establish authenticity and that is another consequence
25 of the fact of the late application prejudice to the process as well as
1 prejudice to the Defence.
2 In terms of -- if I just may quickly deal with the material. The
3 Prosecution's application suggests, in relation to the narrow prejudice
4 which they seek to deal with in paragraph 8, that the work that arises
5 from these documents will be insignificant. That's clearly not the case.
6 In relation to the Banja Luka collection, Document 2 introduces a
7 meeting, not before relied upon, between Mladic, Kovac, and the alleged
8 co-ordinator of the MUP Serbian forces Dragan Filipovic. Documents 3,
9 4, 5, and 6 concern a whole new operation which I haven't or cannot
10 recall hearing of before, Operation Kosovski Bozuri. Document 7 deals
11 with new activities in relation to Mrkonjic Grad.
12 Of the Pecanac collection, similar problems or similar
13 difficulties will arise but exacerbated by the lack of authenticity or
14 authenticating indices on any of the documents. Documents which are, on
15 the face of them, highly incriminatory and on the other hand conceded by
16 the Prosecution as having insufficient authenticating indices.
17 Nonetheless requiring investigation by the Defence on an individual
18 basis, requiring interviewing of witnesses, requiring taking instructions
19 from the client. These few pages, as characterised by the Prosecution,
20 giving rise to tens and tens of legal hours to ensure that the
21 allegations contained therein are met.
22 Finally, the lack of good cause. The Prosecution, in our
23 submission, have not even got off the ground when it comes to
24 demonstrating good cause. If one reads the application, or the motion,
25 the Prosecution, in our submission, don't even attempt to demonstrate
1 good cause, simply indicating dates when they received the material,
2 intervening periods of many months, before the material is then sought to
3 be relied upon in the courtroom.
4 In our submission -- in our submission, that says one of two
5 things: Either a lack of due diligence by the Prosecution and therefore
6 no good cause or diligence by the Prosecution which demonstrates
7 eloquently, in our submission, how much work the Prosecution did and had
8 to do to assess this evidence and how much corresponding work the Defence
9 will have to do to meet it. One or the other must be the case.
10 Those are our submissions. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
12 Could I first inquire as to whether the witness has arrived.
13 First we take a break. If he was on his way, then he certainly -- one
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break first.
17 Now, in view of what we could expect after the break, do the
18 parties - I'm also looking at Mr. Stanisic - do they intend to have the
19 full break of half an hour? Or would we -- expecting that we would not
20 be in court for any more than 40 minutes, 45 minutes, or would we do,
21 well, let's say 20 or 25 minutes' break, which would give an early
22 release for all of us?
23 MR. JORDASH: Could I just have a moment, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]
1 MR. JORDASH: Could the break be limited to 20 minutes, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking around. Also change of tapes,
3 et cetera. 20 minutes, 22 minutes, if we would then reconvene at
4 20 minutes past 5.00. I'm looking at Madam Registrar, whether that
5 causes any problems. No.
6 We'll have a break and we resume at 20 minutes past 5.00.
7 --- Break taken at 4.58 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I asked the parties to briefly confer with me
10 because we have one functionality not functioning, that's the e-court
11 transcript system is not available to the parties. However, we do have a
12 transcript being made; we can see that on the other screen. There is a
13 possibility to have access to exhibits. And under those circumstances,
14 rather than to wait for another 10, 15, 20 minutes until the system would
15 be fully functional again, with the consent of the parties the Chamber
16 decided to proceed.
17 Who is it who will examine the next witness? Ms. Friedman, will
18 it be you?
19 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, I will, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
22 And from your schedule I take it that it is Saidin Salkic that
23 the Prosecution's calling.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Salkic. Do you hear me in a
2 language you understand?
3 THE WITNESS: I actually understand you speaking English.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would prefer to give your testimony in
5 English, I don't know whether that is what you want to choose.
6 THE WITNESS: I think it would be more appropriate in this way.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well I leave the choice entirely to you. If
8 you feel at any moment uncomfortable with using the English language,
9 although I see that it would not cause any serious problems, then please
10 tell us.
11 The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a
12 solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you by the
13 usher. And I would now like to invite you to make that solemn
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: SAIDIN SALKIC
18 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that you expected to have the English
19 text. And of course I do --
20 THE WITNESS: No, no, that's all right.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. Please be seated, Mr. Salkic.
22 But the words are the same in the two languages. Do you -- are you tuned
23 in on the English channel or on the B/C/S channel and is that the channel
24 you would prefer?
25 THE WITNESS: I'm still getting the --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: -- translation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we -- could the witness be put on
4 Channel 4.
5 That's the English channel, Mr. Salkic. Comfortable now?
6 THE WITNESS: Well, if you can call it that way.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand that it's not really comfortable
8 being in that position and about to start your testimony --
9 THE WITNESS: I'm okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- we understand that.
11 Ms. Friedman, are you ready to examine the witness?
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salkic, you'll first be examined by
14 Ms. Friedman. Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you please state your full name for
19 the record.
20 A. My name is Saidin Salkic.
21 Q. Mr. Salkic, do you recall giving a statement to an investigator
22 from the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY on the 22nd and
23 28th of July, 2005?
24 A. I do not recall the date exactly, but, yes, I do remember. It
25 was 2005, yes.
1 Q. Did you have an opportunity prior to testifying today to review
2 this statement in a language you understand?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is there anything you wish to change in that statement?
5 A. No.
6 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would you give the
7 same answers in substance as what is contained in that statement?
8 A. I think so. There would be maybe more pain or something as the
9 time has gone by. But factually, I wouldn't change anything.
10 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
11 accuracy and truthfulness of your statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 6120,
14 the statement of Saidin Salkic dated 22nd and 28th July, 2005, bearing
15 ERN 0423-8898, 0423-8909, into evidence as a public exhibit.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P2488, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P2488 is admitted into evidence.
20 Please proceed, Ms. Friedman.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. Your Honours, the Prosecution also
22 tenders a 92 ter associated exhibit, 65 ter 1228.5, which contains two
23 video stills taken from the Skorpion's video admitted as P2161. The
24 witness indicates in his statement that he was shown 21 video stills
25 bearing ERN 0363-9681, 0363-9721, and that he recognised his father
1 Sidik Salkic in six of them.
2 Four of these stills were already admitted through 92 bis
3 witnesses. So in order to avoid duplication, we are seeking the
4 admission of the remaining two only. The four that have been admitted
5 are photos 9, 10, and 16 in P1796, and photo 19 in P1870. The remaining
6 two stills are -- that we now tender are photo 15, ERN 0363-9709, and
7 that's at time code 14757 of the Skorpions video, and photo 21,
8 ERN 0363-9721, which is at time code 15414 of the Skorpions video.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the two stills can receive one number?
10 They can be united in one exhibit, I take it.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to the
13 two remaining photographs, numbers 15 and 21, would be ...
14 THE REGISTRAR: P2489, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P2489 is admitted into evidence.
16 Mr. Salkic, we have to go through these more or less
17 administrative matters. We have to do that very carefully.
18 Ms. Friedman, please proceed.
19 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. Now, pursuant to the Trial Chamber's
20 instructions of the 18th of February, 2010, at this time I will present a
21 public summary of the evidence contained in Mr. Salkic's statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that you've explained to Mr. Salkic
23 that that's not his evidence but this is just to inform the public about
24 what your evidence is.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: Saidin Salkic is from Srebrenica town. As a
2 child, he lived there with his father, mother, and sister. In the
3 beginning of July 1995, his family was still living at home under
4 difficult circumstances and hardly had anything to eat. On the
5 11th of July, as word spread that Muslims from Srebrenica were being
6 taken away, many found refuge in the Salkic family's home. Everyone was
7 worried and panicked and spoke about how they had to leave because the
8 Serbs were taking over Srebrenica.
9 The men went in the direction of Jaglici, while the women,
10 children, and elderly went to Potocari. That is the last day Saidin
11 Salkic saw his father. His father gave him a pocket watch before setting
12 out with the witness's uncle and other men. The witness went with his
13 mother, sister, and grandmother to Potocari, where they spent a couple of
14 days eating honey to survive.
15 While in Potocari, Serb soldiers separated out young boys from
16 the group, and the witness could hear young girls screaming. On the
17 13th of July, many buses arrived to take the refugees away. There were
18 barricades up, with UN soldiers and Serb soldiers standing next to and
19 behind the barricades. Saidin Salkic and his family boarded one of the
20 buses and were taken in an unknown direction. At a certain point, the
21 buses were stopped and boarded by Serb soldiers wearing green uniforms
22 who told them to get out and ordered them to walk to Kladanj. Only years
23 later, in June 2005, the witness saw video footage of Srebrenica on the
24 news and recognised his father.
25 Q. Mr. Salkic, have I summarised your statement accurately?
1 A. If that's possible, yeah. Yes.
2 Q. I will now ask you some additional questions.
3 First, how old were you at the time of these incidents?
4 A. Thirteen I guess.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, 13. I was born in 1981, so you do the
8 MS. FRIEDMAN:
9 Q. In your statement at paragraph 5, you state that your father left
10 home with your uncle, Beriz Salkic.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know what happened to your uncle?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you seen him alive since that time?
15 A. No. Only in my dreams.
16 Q. Were other male family members with you and your family in
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Who was with you?
20 A. It was my grandmother, my cousins.
21 Q. Did all of your family members leave Potocari?
22 A. No. My uncle never came. He was in Potocari. And some of my
23 childhood friends, I never saw again.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly speak into the
25 microphone. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: I'm having a -- I'm a little confused about to whom
2 I'm speaking to. And that's why --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: -- I speak away from the microphone. But, yes, I
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please come as close to the
7 microphone - and could the microphones be adjusted - because your words
8 have to be translated for those who do not understand English. And the
9 only way of hearing your voice is through the microphones, so therefore
10 the interpreters are asking for speaking up.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. In your statement at paragraph 7, you stated that while you were
14 in Potocari your grandmother wanted to disguise you as a girl so that you
15 wouldn't be taken away but you were too ashamed to do so.
16 My question for you is whether at any point someone did try to
17 take you away?
18 A. Yes, actually. As we were walking towards the buses, I heard the
19 sound of a voice saying, You, kid on the side, and I just moved on the
20 side, and then my mother saw that and she walked back and she started
21 screaming, crying, and doing everything. And then a lot of men gathered
22 around and had their guns out and pointed at my mother, me, until a voice
23 said -- the man said, He's too young, he can go, and I proceeded to go to
24 the buses.
25 Q. Now, the Chamber has admitted into evidence in this case P2161,
1 the Skorpions video, which includes footage of members the Skorpions unit
2 executing six Bosnian Muslim men and boys.
3 Mr. Salkic, is this the video footage that you refer to in your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When did you first find out that it existed?
7 A. Well, I think it says in the statement, I just saw the news
8 briefing on television and I saw men coming off the truck and I sensed my
9 father. I couldn't be sure first, in those few seconds, but I sensed it
10 was him. And I ran home to tell mom about it. And then a few days
11 later -- we kind of lived in hope that it wasn't him, but a few days
12 later it was confirmed. More video was shown. Yeah, it was my father.
13 Q. You've said also in your statement that he was the one wearing
14 the blue shirt. Did you recognise this shirt?
15 A. Yeah. Yes, yes, and I -- I -- every time now I see somebody in a
16 blue shirt, I think of him. Yeah, I did recognise it.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Now, would the Court Usher please display
18 65 ter 6159.
19 Your Honours, this is a demonstrative exhibit, ERN 0679-6454,
20 which contains information about the victims of the Trnovo killing. It's
21 the subject of an agreed fact filed -- between the parties, filed on
22 15 February 2010
23 video stills of each of the victims taken, again, from P2161, along with
24 brief biographical information, including their dates of birth and the
25 locations where they were living in 1991 according to the census. I've
1 spoken with the Defence and they do not object to it. So we tender this
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number of this exhibit
4 would be ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: This would be P2490, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 I took the silence from the Defence as being an agreement with
8 what just was told to the Court by Ms. Friedman.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: I will now ask the witness to show the Chamber the
11 locations mentioned on this exhibit and other location -- on the exhibit
12 just admitted, and other locations that are important to his evidence.
13 Would the Court Usher please display 65 ter 61610. This is
14 page 35 of the Court binder containing maps related to the indictment.
15 It is a map of the Srebrenica Bajina Basta area that has been marked --
16 annotated by Mr. Salkic. And this new version bears ERN 0679-6473.
17 Can we zoom in, please, to the middle third, perhaps, of the map.
18 Yes. That's good. Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Salkic, prior to your testimony, were you asked to indicate
20 the approximate location of several villages on the map that you see
21 before you on the screen?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Near the words "Srebrenica" there is a letter F. What does the
24 letter F represent?
25 A. That is the place where I was living with my family. It's the
1 first letter of the name Fojhar, which is a place.
2 Q. And there is an arrow leading away from Fojhar in a north-west
3 direction, more west. What does this indicate?
4 A. This indicates the direction where my father went from home.
5 Q. And the location Potocari is circled. Is that the location where
6 you went with your mother and sister and others in July 1995?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the Chamber can see where Azmir Alispahic and Juso Delic are
9 from, because Srebrenica and Osmace, south-east of Srebrenica, are
10 clearly marked on the map. But the remaining three victims are from
11 towns which are not on the map, so I would like to ask you to assist with
13 A. I could. I could try.
14 Q. Dino Salihovic is from Likari, Srebrenica. Can you explain where
15 that is? Or we can also offer you a pen so you could circle the general
17 A. Well, as I said, I was 13 and I never went to these villages. I
18 was -- so I couldn't exactly point where it is. But I assume it is very
19 close to Srebrenica. It's a -- it's kind of this perimeter.
20 Q. Okay. And how long would it take to get from Likari to
21 Srebrenica, approximately, by car or foot, if you know?
22 A. People walked. I don't know.
23 Q. And Safet Fejzic is from Blazijevici, Srebrenica. Do you know
24 where Blazijevici is?
25 A. Again, I don't. But I think it's somewhere close to river Drina
1 I would assume.
2 Q. Thank you. And finally, Smail Ibrahimovic from her Hrnici,
3 Bratunac. Have you heard of that location?
4 A. Yes, I have. And as you said, I think it's close to Bratunac, or
5 closer than to Srebrenica.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. Your Honours, I tender this marked
7 version of 65 ter 6160 as the next exhibit.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P2491, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P2491 is admitted into evidence.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN:
12 Q. Mr. Salkic, have you spoken to the families of the other Trnovo
14 A. I -- yes, I have briefly once in Belgrade. But I feel them, and
15 they -- we have this communication beyond words, I guess. Something that
16 connects us and forever will.
17 Q. Now, I only have one or two more questions for you.
18 Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the impact that the murder
19 of your father has had on you and your family?
20 A. Well, my life changed. I got to understand it more, I got to
21 appreciate it more, and realise how grand it is and how precious it is.
22 The impact it had on my family and me is immeasurable. It's something
23 you cannot speak. But you can feel things every day, every night.
24 Hundreds of dreams with blood and with weirdness and undefinable things.
25 It had impact on my mother, who stayed lonely since then. Who never met
1 another man, who spends her days in solitude because that's how she is.
2 She loved him. My sister went through her own personal hell. She was
3 born in 1987. She was younger than me. She was a girl. And I can only
4 through my hell of it understand hers. And I'm sure it was as mad as it
5 was for me.
6 And some things are just how they are, you know. I sometimes
7 drive on sunny days - I mentioned this before - and drive to buy a packet
8 of milk and sometimes it seems like nothing has happened. You get the
9 feeling of beauty of the life, the rhythm, and it's all beautiful, and
10 there's just this ever-present weirdness about these people who have been
11 wiped out of part of our lives. And they'll never change, they'll always
12 stay like that. And however you try to be happy, and you naturally do
13 because it's in the man to try, there's that thing that will always be
14 with us. And I thought that over time it would heal, and it does, time
15 does heal certain things, but then other things are clearer, you know.
16 What my father went through, I could experience it clearly, so intensely
17 and so often. And that's always there.
18 Every time I drink water I think of him, because the last thing
19 he said, he said, Give us some water and then kill us. And every time I
20 drink water I think of him. As I said, every time I see somebody in a
21 blue shirt I think of him. And I always will. I'm getting used to
22 living with that. I have no choice. It's -- in a way, it makes me
23 stronger. It makes me want to drink water with more passion. It makes
24 me want to do things with more passion. It makes me appreciate the truth
25 and how grand it is. I mean, everything is enhanced. Nothing is the
1 same. Nothing.
2 Q. And do you know whether these murders have had similar impacts on
3 the other families?
4 A. I can only imagine. I see them, you know, I see these women,
5 these powerless, beautiful women who've made -- had their children, you
6 know, and some had five disappear. I can only bow to them. I don't
7 know. I think even them seeing me is a pain to them. I am aware of
8 everything and it's not easy.
9 Are we getting closer to the -- do you have more questions?
10 Q. No, I --
11 A. Because I have something to say too. From -- well, I'm a poet
12 and I thought it was very important for me to say that for many of these
13 people it is too late for justice that you can give them. I thought -- I
14 was a kid, I couldn't have done anything, but I thought there was a will,
15 there was a way to stop it, and there would have been justice, to stop
16 the slaughter and genocide. And I think it's in the conscience of those
17 who could have done that and didn't. And that will always stay on their
18 conscience. I have my fight to fight and I do that the best way I can,
19 try to love everybody.
20 Wherever I went I found love. Every person in the world I've
21 met, I found love in them. And for me this can be nothing but eternal
22 crying, and it is. I don't know what else to do about it and what to
23 think of it, how to understand it further. And I don't think there's
24 justice for that. It will always be like that.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Salkic, for giving your evidence.
1 I have no further questions, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Friedman.
3 Is the situation, as far as the Defence, the same as announced
5 MR. JORDASH: Yes, we have no witnesses [sic]. But if I might
6 express my client's sympathy for your loss.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Simatovic Defence
8 case has no questions either. The least we can do and say in front of
9 this witness, to express on behalf of ourselves and our clients our
10 deepest regret for what has happened. And we deeply believe that the
11 real culprit will be brought to justice and punished accordingly.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salkic, usually if you are called by the
13 Prosecution to testify, you will be cross-examined by the Defence if
14 there's any reason to challenge your -- the testimony you've given.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence teams have informed the Chamber and have
17 repeated it a second ago that they have no questions for you, therefore
18 are not challenging your testimony.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber also has no questions for you,
21 this concludes your evidence in this court. The Chamber fully
22 understands that the experiences you've told us about and as we found
23 them in your statement are of a kind that it will have been not easy for
24 you, it will have been very painful, to again give us your testimony and
25 to tell us what you experienced. I would like to thank you very much for
1 engaging in this painful experience for you. I'd like to thank you very
2 much for coming to The Hague
3 put to you. And I wish you a safe journey back.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then you are invited to follow the usher, who will
6 escort you out of the courtroom.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Since Mr. Salkic was the last witness called by the
10 Prosecution, we came at a point that there's no further evidence
11 presented, which does not mean that the Prosecution's case is already
12 finally closed, because there are still quite a number of procedural
13 issues outstanding. Some will be dealt with in writing, where some
14 others will orally be dealt with.
15 We'll inform the parties shortest notice about the date of the
16 housekeeping session. And the parties can also expect, as I said before,
17 a Scheduling Order to be issued most likely early next week.
18 Is there any other procedural matter any of the parties would
19 like to raise at this very moment?
20 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn for the day. I cannot tell you yet
22 when we will resume, therefore the adjournment is sine die. The parties
23 will be informed as soon as possible.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.57 p.m.
25 sine die.