Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11157

 1                           Wednesday, 9 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Before we return into closed session to hear the remainder of the

13     the evidence of the the present witness, I'd like to briefly deal with a

14     few procedural matters.  Yesterday, Mr. Bakrac, there was the the issue

15     of reconsidering your position about the source of some of the documents

16     you tendered through Mr. Theunens.  Any further report on that?

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I went over the

18     documents again, over the documents enumerated by you.  There were nine

19     of them.  As for D183 and D195, we sent a request yesterday to the

20     National Council to check and to tell us whether the previous Defence

21     team had received those documents from them, whether they had been

22     disclosed.  And then there remain nine documents which I -- which I said

23     were received from potential witnesses.  I said that clumsily.  I went

24     over those documents yesterday and I established that in relation to four

25     documents we can address the National Council because those are documents

Page 11158

 1     from the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Justice, Ministry of the

 2     Interior, and Palilula municipality.  Therefore, National Council could

 3     be of assistance in that matter.

 4             There remain four documents from private sources and the persons

 5     that provided us those four documents were identified by me clumsily as

 6     potential witnesses.  However, they are simply persons who gave us

 7     permission to use those documents, without either me or Mr. Petrovic

 8     talking to them at length to see whether there is a potential for calling

 9     them as witnesses for the Defence.

10             So this involves the last four documents which are D167, D192,

11     D191, and D182.  These four, if you agree, could be admitted later on in

12     the trial.  And I propose this knowing full well that you can refuse to

13     admit them based on the fact that we are not disclosing information about

14     their provenance.  As for the other documents, I request the

15     National Council to provide us with a reply within maximum of 14 days to

16     see whether these documents could be found in the archives of the

17     institutions I enumerated.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, for the others you say we can address

19     the relevant ministries, apparently you did not receive it from them.

20     You also received it from private sources but on the basis of the content

21     of those documents --

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I apologise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore you are just not willing to tell us

24     from whom you got all these documents.  So apart from whether there's an

25     opportunity to verify whether the same document is found in any archives,

Page 11159

 1     but you're just saying, I'm not going to tell you from whom I got them.

 2     That's on the record.  The Chamber will consider how to deal with that.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so.  These

 4     four documents come from Republika Srpska and Republic of

 5     Serbian Krajina.  I'm not aware whether archives exist.  We will try to

 6     verify that as well.  Perhaps it sounds a bit arrogant that I do not wish

 7     to disclose the source of information, but I'm simply trying to be

 8     cautious.  And should these witnesses indeed -- should these persons

 9     indeed become witness, we will try to admit the documents through them.

10             On two of these documents it can be seen that the document was

11     sent to the person named in the documents.  D167 says so clearly.  The

12     name of the person is indicated there.  But I wish to proceed cautiously

13     until these people become indeed our witnesses, knowing full well that

14     you could refuse to admit these documents into evidence later on.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, the Chamber suggests to you that you

17     would withdraw the tendering of all of these documents.  And that once

18     the conditions are fulfilled, that is, whether you have found similar

19     copies in archives or that you do not even know whether these archives

20     exist or whether you call anyone for those -- anyone to introduce them as

21     witnesses, therefore if you withdraw, there is no prejudice in

22     re-tendering them at a later stage and then we'll see whether we use the

23     same numbers.  But if you would not do that, you should not be surprised

24     if the Chamber would deny admission of all of them.  And I'm talking

25     about the ones you received from the private sources.  I'm not talking

Page 11160

 1     about the RFA related documents because we do understand that you are

 2     handicapped there by not knowing exactly what the history is.  So we'll

 3     leave that for the time being.  We might leave that open.  But I'm

 4     talking about the other ones, the ones you just mentioned where you will

 5     address ministries in order to see whether the same or similar documents

 6     are found and the ones where you say, we would have to further consider

 7     with those who provided those documents whether or not we could use them.

 8             But my suggestion is that you withdraw the tendering of all these

 9     documents without prejudice.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you kindly tell

11     me whether the Chamber prefer me to do that in writing or can I do it

12     orally?  Can I make this withdrawal orally until we receive what you said

13     we should receive?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, if you want to withdraw the tendering of those

15     documents orally, you can do it.  It's then on the record.  And of course

16     it will then be -- this withdrawal will be referred to in the decision

17     with Theunens' documents.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these four documents

19     coming from private sources for which I cannot establish quickly whether

20     they exist in any archives, could I then withdraw their tendering.  And

21     the remaining four and 183 and 195, we should then wait for the

22     National Council's response, because we had already requested their

23     response, and we expect their response within seven days.  So that's what

24     pertains to those four documents.  And the remaining four, which had been

25     issued by different countries, different states, then I'm hereby applying

Page 11161

 1     to withdraw their tendering.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, of course, the others, I suggested that

 3     you withdraw the others as well, but of course you're not in any way

 4     bound to follow any suggestions.  But the Chamber is not in a position to

 5     say whether you should or should not follow that suggestion.

 6             The four are on the record.  We'll see what we'll do with the

 7     others.

 8             Then I move on.  Housekeeping session, we are thinking on having

 9     a housekeeping session on the 23rd of February, but we would first

10     inquire with the parties whether that creates any problem.

11             Yes, Mr. Jordash.

12             MR. JORDASH:  I've forgotten completely what date it is today.

13     9th, thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It would be Wednesday in two weeks from now.

15             MR. JORDASH:  We were hoping, to be honest, that we would have

16     the housekeeping sooner rather than later.  I had hoped to head to

17     Belgrade to begin Defence preparations in the next two weeks.  But if

18     that isn't possible --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying -- that's exactly the reason why

20     we're asking you.  That's -- you would rather have it earlier than --

21             MR. JORDASH:  My plan was to leave in around 10 to 14 days.  If

22     it could be had within that period, that would be good for us.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Mr. Bakrac.

Page 11162

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I give you our

 2     position, could you first give us an indication as to when we would have

 3     92 bis hearings -- 98 bis hearings, otherwise 23rd of February is fine

 4     with us, but we first need to know about the 98 bis hearings in order to

 5     give you our position.  Looking at it from today's perspective, the 23rd

 6     is fine with us.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And earlier, as Mr. Jordash suggested, would

 8     that cause you any problems?

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the week starting the

10     21st of February is fine with us.  The 23rd is a Wednesday, the 21st is a

11     Monday, and this -- if this is what Mr. Jordash had in mind, that's fine

12     with us.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Jordash had

14     on his mind the week before that.

15             Mr. Jordash, could you please -- you were heading for the second

16     half of next week, isn't it?

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I certainly will be around all of next week.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't see an obstacle, I don't see

22     a conflict.  I would like to know so that my colleague and I can plan the

23     98 bis submissions, but I don't see a problem for holding it a week

24     earlier, perhaps at the end of the week preceding that, say Thursday.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll see.

Page 11163

 1             Mr. Groome, any preference?

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution will be ready at any

 3     date set by the Chamber.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We'll consider it and we'll inform the

 5     parties already about the housekeeping session this week, but a

 6     Scheduling Order for the following procedural steps may be issued only

 7     next week.  Of course, the one is also related to the other because we

 8     cannot think about 98 bis until the case of the Prosecution has been

 9     closed.

10             I have no further matters at this moment.  I have still got two

11     times ten minutes for you, Mr. Jordash, but I'd rather keep that, for the

12     time being, most likely later today.  Because if I understood you well,

13     Mr. Groome, for the next witness half an hour was the new schedule for

14     examination-in-chief?

15             MR. GROOME:  I think the more accurate estimate at this stage

16     would be about 40 minutes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  40 minutes.  Do I also understand that the

18     Stanisic Defence does not intend to cross-examination the next witness,

19     if matters do not change?

20             MR. JORDASH:  If matters do not change, then no.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And the same is true for the Simatovic Defence?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We will not cross-examine either.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will --

24             Mr. Jordash.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Could I also indicate that we will only seek to


Page 11164

 1     advance submissions on the one point which is the issue relating to the

 2     addition of exhibits to the 65 ter and admission into the courtroom of

 3     those exhibits.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the 20th motion, and you are not going to

 5     make any submissions about the other matter which we would have to hear

 6     anyhow in closed session?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  The other matter, it occurred to us that we were

 8     not going to be seeking a remedy or any direction or order from the Court

 9     which would assist the Defence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  So one times ten minutes are

11     off.  We turn into closed session.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)


Page 11165











11 Pages 11165-11202 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 11203

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Jordash, ten minutes' oral submission on the Prosecution's

16     20th motion for leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit list and for

17     admission of exhibits from the bar table with confidential annexes filed

18     21st of January, 2011.

19             You may proceed.

20             MR. JORDASH:  The application is opposed.  We oppose the

21     application but also are mindful of previous rulings which mean that the

22     merits of the application appear to fall fairly and squarely with the

23     Prosecution, but nonetheless, we oppose the application.  We oppose the

24     application on two principled basis.  Firstly, that the Prosecution have

25     not demonstrated that the application is in the interests of justice, and


Page 11204

 1     in particular that the accused's right to be informed of the charges is

 2     effectively trampled, we would submit, by the application, or by the

 3     grant of the application.

 4             And, secondly, that - and this is a subset, as such, of the

 5     first - that the prejudice to the accused cannot at this stage be

 6     remedied.

 7             And, thirdly -- I know I said two, but thirdly, that the

 8     Prosecution have failed to show good cause for the application being made

 9     at this stage.

10             Dealing with the first, the interests of justice generally.  The

11     application, we submit, must, as we've submitted before, be seen in light

12     of the -- what we would characterise as massive disclosures which have

13     occurred during this case.  In particular, we submit that the Prosecution

14     have effectively continuously been allowed to disclose and rely upon new

15     evidence, which, even putting aside the Mladic diaries, runs into the

16     hundreds of pages, but with the Mladic diaries runs into thousands of

17     pages.

18             The Prosecution's application effectively seeks to reduce the

19     accused's right to be informed of the charges to a right to be informed

20     of the charges at some time during the Prosecution case.  It is the

21     Prosecution's submission that providing -- and it has been the

22     Prosecution's submission throughout, that providing the Defence has an

23     opportunity to investigate the late disclosed material, then no prejudice

24     arises.  In our submission, that's completely incorrect.  Of course there

25     is the prejudice which arises through late disclosure, causing

Page 11205

 1     significant investigation and work by the Defence team to meet that

 2     evidence.

 3             The thousands of pages which I referred to a moment ago has given

 4     rise and will continue to give rise to hundreds of hours of new work for

 5     a Defence team which has finite resources.  The case commenced on a

 6     certain basis with a certain volume of material.  The resources allocated

 7     were based on that volume.  And at some point, when the disclosures reach

 8     a certain size, those resources must clearly become inadequate.

 9             But in our submission that is only one of the prejudices which

10     arise through the late disclosure of a volume of material, and especially

11     material that's served at the close of the Prosecution case.  And those

12     clearly concern what the right to be informed of the charges is

13     principally about, which is that an accused has a right to be informed of

14     the detail of the charges promptly, and that is before the commencement

15     of the Prosecution case.  Whilst of course there will be exceptions, what

16     ought to be an exception, in our submission, has now become the norm.

17             The Prosecution motion, in our submission, selects only an aspect

18     of the prejudice, because the remainder of the prejudice, in our

19     submission, cannot, as the Prosecution case is about to end, be

20     rectified.  And that's particularly pertinent in the case of the

21     Pecanac collection.  The Prosecution accept that they cannot establish

22     even authenticity with those documents.  So at the close of the

23     Prosecution case, the Prosecution want to introduce documents which they

24     accept they cannot establish authenticity and that is another consequence

25     of the fact of the late application prejudice to the process as well as

Page 11206

 1     prejudice to the Defence.

 2             In terms of -- if I just may quickly deal with the material.  The

 3     Prosecution's application suggests, in relation to the narrow prejudice

 4     which they seek to deal with in paragraph 8, that the work that arises

 5     from these documents will be insignificant.  That's clearly not the case.

 6     In relation to the Banja Luka collection, Document 2 introduces a

 7     meeting, not before relied upon, between Mladic, Kovac, and the alleged

 8     co-ordinator of the MUP Serbian forces Dragan Filipovic.  Documents 3,

 9     4, 5, and 6 concern a whole new operation which I haven't or cannot

10     recall hearing of before, Operation Kosovski Bozuri.  Document 7 deals

11     with new activities in relation to Mrkonjic Grad.

12             Of the Pecanac collection, similar problems or similar

13     difficulties will arise but exacerbated by the lack of authenticity or

14     authenticating indices on any of the documents.  Documents which are, on

15     the face of them, highly incriminatory and on the other hand conceded by

16     the Prosecution as having insufficient authenticating indices.

17     Nonetheless requiring investigation by the Defence on an individual

18     basis, requiring interviewing of witnesses, requiring taking instructions

19     from the client.  These few pages, as characterised by the Prosecution,

20     giving rise to tens and tens of legal hours to ensure that the

21     allegations contained therein are met.

22             Finally, the lack of good cause.  The Prosecution, in our

23     submission, have not even got off the ground when it comes to

24     demonstrating good cause.  If one reads the application, or the motion,

25     the Prosecution, in our submission, don't even attempt to demonstrate

Page 11207

 1     good cause, simply indicating dates when they received the material,

 2     intervening periods of many months, before the material is then sought to

 3     be relied upon in the courtroom.

 4             In our submission -- in our submission, that says one of two

 5     things:  Either a lack of due diligence by the Prosecution and therefore

 6     no good cause or diligence by the Prosecution which demonstrates

 7     eloquently, in our submission, how much work the Prosecution did and had

 8     to do to assess this evidence and how much corresponding work the Defence

 9     will have to do to meet it.  One or the other must be the case.

10             Those are our submissions.  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

12             Could I first inquire as to whether the witness has arrived.

13     First we take a break.  If he was on his way, then he certainly -- one

14     second.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break first.

17             Now, in view of what we could expect after the break, do the

18     parties - I'm also looking at Mr. Stanisic - do they intend to have the

19     full break of half an hour?  Or would we -- expecting that we would not

20     be in court for any more than 40 minutes, 45 minutes, or would we do,

21     well, let's say 20 or 25 minutes' break, which would give an early

22     release for all of us?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just have a moment, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25                           [Defence counsel and Accused Stanisic confer]

Page 11208

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Could the break be limited to 20 minutes, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking around.  Also change of tapes,

 3     et cetera.  20 minutes, 22 minutes, if we would then reconvene at

 4     20 minutes past 5.00.  I'm looking at Madam Registrar, whether that

 5     causes any problems.  No.

 6             We'll have a break and we resume at 20 minutes past 5.00.

 7                           --- Break taken at 4.58 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked the parties to briefly confer with me

10     because we have one functionality not functioning, that's the e-court

11     transcript system is not available to the parties.  However, we do have a

12     transcript being made; we can see that on the other screen.  There is a

13     possibility to have access to exhibits.  And under those circumstances,

14     rather than to wait for another 10, 15, 20 minutes until the system would

15     be fully functional again, with the consent of the parties the Chamber

16     decided to proceed.

17             Who is it who will examine the next witness?  Ms. Friedman, will

18     it be you?

19             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, I will, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

21     courtroom.

22             And from your schedule I take it that it is Saidin Salkic that

23     the Prosecution's calling.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

25                           [The witness entered court]


Page 11209

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Salkic.  Do you hear me in a

 2     language you understand?

 3             THE WITNESS:  I actually understand you speaking English.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you would prefer to give your testimony in

 5     English, I don't know whether that is what you want to choose.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I think it would be more appropriate in this way.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well I leave the choice entirely to you.  If

 8     you feel at any moment uncomfortable with using the English language,

 9     although I see that it would not cause any serious problems, then please

10     tell us.

11             The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a

12     solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you by the

13     usher.  And I would now like to invite you to make that solemn

14     declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  SAIDIN SALKIC

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I can imagine that you expected to have the English

19     text.  And of course I do --

20             THE WITNESS:  No, no, that's all right.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.  Please be seated, Mr. Salkic.

22     But the words are the same in the two languages.  Do you -- are you tuned

23     in on the English channel or on the B/C/S channel and is that the channel

24     you would prefer?

25             THE WITNESS:  I'm still getting the --


Page 11210

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             THE WITNESS: -- translation.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we -- could the witness be put on

 4     Channel 4.

 5             That's the English channel, Mr. Salkic.  Comfortable now?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Well, if you can call it that way.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I understand that it's not really comfortable

 8     being in that position and about to start your testimony --

 9             THE WITNESS:  I'm okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE: -- we understand that.

11             Ms. Friedman, are you ready to examine the witness?

12             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Salkic, you'll first be examined by

14     Ms. Friedman.  Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Examination by Ms. Friedman:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  Can you please state your full name for

19     the record.

20        A.   My name is Saidin Salkic.

21        Q.   Mr. Salkic, do you recall giving a statement to an investigator

22     from the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY on the 22nd and

23     28th of July, 2005?

24        A.   I do not recall the date exactly, but, yes, I do remember.  It

25     was 2005, yes.

Page 11211

 1        Q.   Did you have an opportunity prior to testifying today to review

 2     this statement in a language you understand?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is there anything you wish to change in that statement?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   If you were asked the same questions today, would you give the

 7     same answers in substance as what is contained in that statement?

 8        A.   I think so.  There would be maybe more pain or something as the

 9     time has gone by.  But factually, I wouldn't change anything.

10        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

11     accuracy and truthfulness of your statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 6120,

14     the statement of Saidin Salkic dated 22nd and 28th July, 2005, bearing

15     ERN 0423-8898, 0423-8909, into evidence as a public exhibit.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P2488, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P2488 is admitted into evidence.

20             Please proceed, Ms. Friedman.

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.  Your Honours, the Prosecution also

22     tenders a 92 ter associated exhibit, 65 ter 1228.5, which contains two

23     video stills taken from the Skorpion's video admitted as P2161.  The

24     witness indicates in his statement that he was shown 21 video stills

25     bearing ERN 0363-9681, 0363-9721, and that he recognised his father

Page 11212

 1     Sidik Salkic in six of them.

 2             Four of these stills were already admitted through 92 bis

 3     witnesses.  So in order to avoid duplication, we are seeking the

 4     admission of the remaining two only.  The four that have been admitted

 5     are photos 9, 10, and 16 in P1796, and photo 19 in P1870.  The remaining

 6     two stills are -- that we now tender are photo 15, ERN 0363-9709, and

 7     that's at time code 14757 of the Skorpions video, and photo 21,

 8     ERN 0363-9721, which is at time code 15414 of the Skorpions video.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the two stills can receive one number?

10     They can be united in one exhibit, I take it.

11             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to the

13     two remaining photographs, numbers 15 and 21, would be ...

14             THE REGISTRAR:  P2489, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P2489 is admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Salkic, we have to go through these more or less

17     administrative matters.  We have to do that very carefully.

18             Ms. Friedman, please proceed.

19             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.  Now, pursuant to the Trial Chamber's

20     instructions of the 18th of February, 2010, at this time I will present a

21     public summary of the evidence contained in Mr. Salkic's statement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And I take it that you've explained to Mr. Salkic

23     that that's not his evidence but this is just to inform the public about

24     what your evidence is.

25             Please proceed.

Page 11213

 1             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Saidin Salkic is from Srebrenica town.  As a

 2     child, he lived there with his father, mother, and sister.  In the

 3     beginning of July 1995, his family was still living at home under

 4     difficult circumstances and hardly had anything to eat.  On the

 5     11th of July, as word spread that Muslims from Srebrenica were being

 6     taken away, many found refuge in the Salkic family's home.  Everyone was

 7     worried and panicked and spoke about how they had to leave because the

 8     Serbs were taking over Srebrenica.

 9             The men went in the direction of Jaglici, while the women,

10     children, and elderly went to Potocari.  That is the last day Saidin

11     Salkic saw his father.  His father gave him a pocket watch before setting

12     out with the witness's uncle and other men.  The witness went with his

13     mother, sister, and grandmother to Potocari, where they spent a couple of

14     days eating honey to survive.

15             While in Potocari, Serb soldiers separated out young boys from

16     the group, and the witness could hear young girls screaming.  On the

17     13th of July, many buses arrived to take the refugees away.  There were

18     barricades up, with UN soldiers and Serb soldiers standing next to and

19     behind the barricades.  Saidin Salkic and his family boarded one of the

20     buses and were taken in an unknown direction.  At a certain point, the

21     buses were stopped and boarded by Serb soldiers wearing green uniforms

22     who told them to get out and ordered them to walk to Kladanj.  Only years

23     later, in June 2005, the witness saw video footage of Srebrenica on the

24     news and recognised his father.

25        Q.   Mr. Salkic, have I summarised your statement accurately?

Page 11214

 1        A.   If that's possible, yeah.  Yes.

 2        Q.   I will now ask you some additional questions.

 3             First, how old were you at the time of these incidents?

 4        A.   Thirteen I guess.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness speak up, please.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes, 13.  I was born in 1981, so you do the

 7     counting.

 8             MS. FRIEDMAN:

 9        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 5, you state that your father left

10     home with your uncle, Beriz Salkic.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you know what happened to your uncle?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Have you seen him alive since that time?

15        A.   No.  Only in my dreams.

16        Q.   Were other male family members with you and your family in

17     Potocari?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Who was with you?

20        A.   It was my grandmother, my cousins.

21        Q.   Did all of your family members leave Potocari?

22        A.   No.  My uncle never came.  He was in Potocari.  And some of my

23     childhood friends, I never saw again.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly speak into the

25     microphone.  Thank you.

Page 11215

 1             THE WITNESS:  I'm having a -- I'm a little confused about to whom

 2     I'm speaking to.  And that's why --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             THE WITNESS: -- I speak away from the microphone.  But, yes, I

 5     will.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would please come as close to the

 7     microphone - and could the microphones be adjusted - because your words

 8     have to be translated for those who do not understand English.  And the

 9     only way of hearing your voice is through the microphones, so therefore

10     the interpreters are asking for speaking up.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 7, you stated that while you were

14     in Potocari your grandmother wanted to disguise you as a girl so that you

15     wouldn't be taken away but you were too ashamed to do so.

16             My question for you is whether at any point someone did try to

17     take you away?

18        A.   Yes, actually.  As we were walking towards the buses, I heard the

19     sound of a voice saying, You, kid on the side, and I just moved on the

20     side, and then my mother saw that and she walked back and she started

21     screaming, crying, and doing everything.  And then a lot of men gathered

22     around and had their guns out and pointed at my mother, me, until a voice

23     said -- the man said, He's too young, he can go, and I proceeded to go to

24     the buses.

25        Q.   Now, the Chamber has admitted into evidence in this case P2161,

Page 11216

 1     the Skorpions video, which includes footage of members the Skorpions unit

 2     executing six Bosnian Muslim men and boys.

 3             Mr. Salkic, is this the video footage that you refer to in your

 4     statement?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   When did you first find out that it existed?

 7        A.   Well, I think it says in the statement, I just saw the news

 8     briefing on television and I saw men coming off the truck and I sensed my

 9     father.  I couldn't be sure first, in those few seconds, but I sensed it

10     was him.  And I ran home to tell mom about it.  And then a few days

11     later -- we kind of lived in hope that it wasn't him, but a few days

12     later it was confirmed.  More video was shown.  Yeah, it was my father.

13        Q.   You've said also in your statement that he was the one wearing

14     the blue shirt.  Did you recognise this shirt?

15        A.   Yeah.  Yes, yes, and I -- I -- every time now I see somebody in a

16     blue shirt, I think of him.  Yeah, I did recognise it.

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Now, would the Court Usher please display

18     65 ter 6159.

19             Your Honours, this is a demonstrative exhibit, ERN 0679-6454,

20     which contains information about the victims of the Trnovo killing.  It's

21     the subject of an agreed fact filed -- between the parties, filed on

22     15 February 2010 and contained in Annex A, part N.  This exhibit contains

23     video stills of each of the victims taken, again, from P2161, along with

24     brief biographical information, including their dates of birth and the

25     locations where they were living in 1991 according to the census.  I've

Page 11217

 1     spoken with the Defence and they do not object to it.  So we tender this

 2     exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number of this exhibit

 4     would be ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be P2490, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             I took the silence from the Defence as being an agreement with

 8     what just was told to the Court by Ms. Friedman.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I will now ask the witness to show the Chamber the

11     locations mentioned on this exhibit and other location -- on the exhibit

12     just admitted, and other locations that are important to his evidence.

13             Would the Court Usher please display 65 ter 61610.  This is

14     page 35 of the Court binder containing maps related to the indictment.

15     It is a map of the Srebrenica Bajina Basta area that has been marked --

16     annotated by Mr. Salkic.  And this new version bears ERN 0679-6473.

17             Can we zoom in, please, to the middle third, perhaps, of the map.

18     Yes.  That's good.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Salkic, prior to your testimony, were you asked to indicate

20     the approximate location of several villages on the map that you see

21     before you on the screen?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Near the words "Srebrenica" there is a letter F.  What does the

24     letter F represent?

25        A.   That is the place where I was living with my family.  It's the

Page 11218

 1     first letter of the name Fojhar, which is a place.

 2        Q.   And there is an arrow leading away from Fojhar in a north-west

 3     direction, more west.  What does this indicate?

 4        A.   This indicates the direction where my father went from home.

 5        Q.   And the location Potocari is circled.  Is that the location where

 6     you went with your mother and sister and others in July 1995?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the Chamber can see where Azmir Alispahic and Juso Delic are

 9     from, because Srebrenica and Osmace, south-east of Srebrenica, are

10     clearly marked on the map.  But the remaining three victims are from

11     towns which are not on the map, so I would like to ask you to assist with

12     that.

13        A.   I could.  I could try.

14        Q.   Dino Salihovic is from Likari, Srebrenica.  Can you explain where

15     that is?  Or we can also offer you a pen so you could circle the general

16     vicinity.

17        A.   Well, as I said, I was 13 and I never went to these villages.  I

18     was -- so I couldn't exactly point where it is.  But I assume it is very

19     close to Srebrenica.  It's a -- it's kind of this perimeter.

20        Q.   Okay.  And how long would it take to get from Likari to

21     Srebrenica, approximately, by car or foot, if you know?

22        A.   People walked.  I don't know.

23        Q.   And Safet Fejzic is from Blazijevici, Srebrenica.  Do you know

24     where Blazijevici is?

25        A.   Again, I don't.  But I think it's somewhere close to river Drina,

Page 11219

 1     I would assume.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, Smail Ibrahimovic from her Hrnici,

 3     Bratunac.  Have you heard of that location?

 4        A.   Yes, I have.  And as you said, I think it's close to Bratunac, or

 5     closer than to Srebrenica.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I tender this marked

 7     version of 65 ter 6160 as the next exhibit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P2491, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P2491 is admitted into evidence.

11             MS. FRIEDMAN:

12        Q.   Mr. Salkic, have you spoken to the families of the other Trnovo

13     victims?

14        A.   I -- yes, I have briefly once in Belgrade.  But I feel them, and

15     they -- we have this communication beyond words, I guess.  Something that

16     connects us and forever will.

17        Q.   Now, I only have one or two more questions for you.

18             Can you describe for the Trial Chamber the impact that the murder

19     of your father has had on you and your family?

20        A.   Well, my life changed.  I got to understand it more, I got to

21     appreciate it more, and realise how grand it is and how precious it is.

22     The impact it had on my family and me is immeasurable.  It's something

23     you cannot speak.  But you can feel things every day, every night.

24     Hundreds of dreams with blood and with weirdness and undefinable things.

25     It had impact on my mother, who stayed lonely since then.  Who never met

Page 11220

 1     another man, who spends her days in solitude because that's how she is.

 2     She loved him.  My sister went through her own personal hell.  She was

 3     born in 1987.  She was younger than me.  She was a girl.  And I can only

 4     through my hell of it understand hers.  And I'm sure it was as mad as it

 5     was for me.

 6             And some things are just how they are, you know.  I sometimes

 7     drive on sunny days - I mentioned this before - and drive to buy a packet

 8     of milk and sometimes it seems like nothing has happened.  You get the

 9     feeling of beauty of the life, the rhythm, and it's all beautiful, and

10     there's just this ever-present weirdness about these people who have been

11     wiped out of part of our lives.  And they'll never change, they'll always

12     stay like that.  And however you try to be happy, and you naturally do

13     because it's in the man to try, there's that thing that will always be

14     with us.  And I thought that over time it would heal, and it does, time

15     does heal certain things, but then other things are clearer, you know.

16     What my father went through, I could experience it clearly, so intensely

17     and so often.  And that's always there.

18             Every time I drink water I think of him, because the last thing

19     he said, he said, Give us some water and then kill us.  And every time I

20     drink water I think of him.  As I said, every time I see somebody in a

21     blue shirt I think of him.  And I always will.  I'm getting used to

22     living with that.  I have no choice.  It's -- in a way, it makes me

23     stronger.  It makes me want to drink water with more passion.  It makes

24     me want to do things with more passion.  It makes me appreciate the truth

25     and how grand it is.  I mean, everything is enhanced.  Nothing is the

Page 11221

 1     same.  Nothing.

 2        Q.   And do you know whether these murders have had similar impacts on

 3     the other families?

 4        A.   I can only imagine.  I see them, you know, I see these women,

 5     these powerless, beautiful women who've made -- had their children, you

 6     know, and some had five disappear.  I can only bow to them.  I don't

 7     know.  I think even them seeing me is a pain to them.  I am aware of

 8     everything and it's not easy.

 9             Are we getting closer to the -- do you have more questions?

10        Q.   No, I --

11        A.   Because I have something to say too.  From -- well, I'm a poet

12     and I thought it was very important for me to say that for many of these

13     people it is too late for justice that you can give them.  I thought -- I

14     was a kid, I couldn't have done anything, but I thought there was a will,

15     there was a way to stop it, and there would have been justice, to stop

16     the slaughter and genocide.  And I think it's in the conscience of those

17     who could have done that and didn't.  And that will always stay on their

18     conscience.  I have my fight to fight and I do that the best way I can,

19     try to love everybody.

20             Wherever I went I found love.  Every person in the world I've

21     met, I found love in them.  And for me this can be nothing but eternal

22     crying, and it is.  I don't know what else to do about it and what to

23     think of it, how to understand it further.  And I don't think there's

24     justice for that.  It will always be like that.

25             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Salkic, for giving your evidence.

Page 11222

 1             I have no further questions, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Friedman.

 3             Is the situation, as far as the Defence, the same as announced

 4     before?

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, we have no witnesses [sic].  But if I might

 6     express my client's sympathy for your loss.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Simatovic Defence

 8     case has no questions either.  The least we can do and say in front of

 9     this witness, to express on behalf of ourselves and our clients our

10     deepest regret for what has happened.  And we deeply believe that the

11     real culprit will be brought to justice and punished accordingly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Salkic, usually if you are called by the

13     Prosecution to testify, you will be cross-examined by the Defence if

14     there's any reason to challenge your -- the testimony you've given.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The Defence teams have informed the Chamber and have

17     repeated it a second ago that they have no questions for you, therefore

18     are not challenging your testimony.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Chamber also has no questions for you,

21     this concludes your evidence in this court.  The Chamber fully

22     understands that the experiences you've told us about and as we found

23     them in your statement are of a kind that it will have been not easy for

24     you, it will have been very painful, to again give us your testimony and

25     to tell us what you experienced.  I would like to thank you very much for


Page 11223

 1     engaging in this painful experience for you.  I'd like to thank you very

 2     much for coming to The Hague, for having answered the questions that were

 3     put to you.  And I wish you a safe journey back.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you are invited to follow the usher, who will

 6     escort you out of the courtroom.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Since Mr. Salkic was the last witness called by the

10     Prosecution, we came at a point that there's no further evidence

11     presented, which does not mean that the Prosecution's case is already

12     finally closed, because there are still quite a number of procedural

13     issues outstanding.  Some will be dealt with in writing, where some

14     others will orally be dealt with.

15             We'll inform the parties shortest notice about the date of the

16     housekeeping session.  And the parties can also expect, as I said before,

17     a Scheduling Order to be issued most likely early next week.

18             Is there any other procedural matter any of the parties would

19     like to raise at this very moment?

20             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn for the day.  I cannot tell you yet

22     when we will resume, therefore the adjournment is sine die.  The parties

23     will be informed as soon as possible.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.57 p.m.

25                           sine die.