1 Friday, 24 June 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 1.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. All kind of technical
6 difficulties caused the delay in our start. We'll today hear the case
7 until 6.00, so therefore, the time difference is one hour.
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
10 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 I was informed that the parties had decided to invite the witness
13 to reappear.
14 Mr. Groome, perhaps we go right into closed session unless
15 there's anything to be dealt with in open session.
16 MR. JORDASH: No, Your Honour, except that my microphone --
17 sorry, my headphones are not working.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Your headphones are not working. Let's try to
19 get --
20 MR. JORDASH: It's not the headphones, it's the connection. I've
21 tried two now, so --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that we'll find a solution for that.
23 We turn into closed session.
24 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Once the curtains are down, could the
1 Witness DST-051 be escorted into the courtroom.
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in closed session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 Is there any arrangement as to how to proceed with
5 Witness DST-051? Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I just wanted to make sure that what
7 Your Honour said at the beginning didn't entirely reflect the
8 Prosecution's position. I have had no part in the decision to call the
9 witness. Yesterday, I said to Mr. Jordash that if he sought to re-open
10 the direct examination for the limited purpose of the authenticity of
11 these documents, I would not oppose it. At 9.30, there was decision made
12 by the Stanisic Defence to recall him.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that Mr. Jordash will examine the
15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 THE WITNESS: DST-051 [Recalled]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness DST-051. First of all,
20 thank you very much for coming back to this courtroom. I hope that we'll
21 not take too much of your time, but in relation to the documents being
22 given to you yesterday, Mr. Jordash would have some additional questions
23 for you.
24 I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
25 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that is,
1 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 Mr. Jordash.
3 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Further examination by Mr. Jordash:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness DST-051. You were given a bundle of
6 documents yesterday, late afternoon. Did you have an opportunity to read
7 them between then and now?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Did you recognise any of the documents? Had you seen any of them
11 A. I saw all of these documents yesterday for the first time. I
12 recognise most of them by format, starting with the decision of the
13 republican minister of the interior, Radmilo Bogdanovic, onwards. This
14 decision was on the appointment of the commission appointing the specific
15 commission members headed by Mr. Lekovic. I recognise the stamp of the
16 MUP and the signature of minister Radmilo Bogdanovic. That's as far as
17 the first document goes.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe all of the documents are
19 uploaded. Would it be possible to call them up on the screen so we can
20 when the witness talks about different items?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I apologise.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently, you asked the witness a very limited
24 question, but you let him go. It's fine with me, but ...
25 MR. JORDASH: Could I just --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The first document would be?
11 Pages 11885-11918 redacted. Closed session.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 THE WITNESS: DST-032
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness DST-032, because that's how
12 we are going to call you. Before you give evidence in this court, the
13 Rules of Procedure require that you make a declaration that you speak the
14 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now
15 handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
19 Witness DST-032, first of all, I think that you have been waiting
20 yesterday for quite a while, but we did not manage to finish the
21 testimony of a previous witness, so therefore, we feel sorry for that.
22 Before we come to your actual testimony, we first have to decide
23 on protective measures you have asked for. Now, I want to briefly
24 explain to you what the situation is. There is a request by the
25 government of Serbia for your testimony to be in closed session. That is
1 for reasons as explained by the Serbian government. Apart from that, you
2 have also requested for protective measures to be applied. That's not
3 because of the interests of the -- of Serbia, but it's because you have
4 expressed your personal concerns as expressed in a motion for protective
5 measures in paragraph 14, and the parties may have some additional
6 questions about these personal concerns.
7 Now, before we hear your answers to those questions, I would
8 already like to explain to you the following: This Chamber has decided
9 that provisionally, I emphasise provisionally, we will hear your
10 testimony in closed session. Why? Because we're seeking further
11 information from Serbia before we finally will decide on whether we will
12 allow your testimony to be heard in closed session. About your -- so
13 therefore, whatever happens later, at this moment we'll hear your
14 testimony in closed session.
15 Now, if we would grant the request from Serbia, then your
16 testimony would remain in closed session. If, however, for whatever
17 reason we would consider that the reasons by Serbia are not strong enough
18 to justify closed session, then we would still have to consider your
19 personal request for protective measures. For that purpose, either we
20 could then grant your request, but there are also other possibilities
21 such as not showing your face, not broadcasting your voice, as
22 alternatives to a full closed session, which would mean that the public
23 wouldn't see you, wouldn't hear your own voice, but the public would be
24 able to hear the content of your testimony. And perhaps not all of it.
25 Perhaps some portions could be -- could be broadcasted to the public.
1 Other portions, perhaps not. We would have to decide that on a very --
2 after having heard all the submissions and also looking at the evidence
3 you give. For example, if you would give answers which would identify
4 yourself, then, of course, it don't make sense not to show your face, not
5 to broadcast your voice, and to use a pseudonym, as we are doing now,
6 "DST-032," because on the basis of the testimony itself, the public could
7 identify you. So under those circumstances, we'd certainly make a
8 selection on what would be public and what would not be public in order
9 to make effective any other protective measures we might grant.
10 Is this clear to you, that final decisions have not yet been
11 made. For the time being, you'll testify in closed session. If the
12 government's request is granted, that remains the same. If the
13 government's request would not be granted, then we'll further consider
14 whether we could achieve the same effect, that is, protecting your
15 identity and considering the concerns you have expressed by other means
16 than to make it fully closed session.
17 Is that clear to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. I understand. It
19 is clear.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then the parties may have a few more questions for
22 Ms. Marcus.
23 Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution and will ask you
24 questions. These questions, I'll note, although not really being part of
25 your testimony, are also covered by the solemn declaration you've just
1 made that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
3 Ms. Marcus.
4 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus on Protective Measures:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. We only have received a few lines
7 concerning your personal concerns for your security. The Stanisic
8 Defence informed the Chamber that you fear for your well-being and that
9 of your family if it should become known that you have testified on
10 behalf of Mr. Stanisic. The paragraph in the Stanisic submission states
11 that you were "accused of committing a crime regarding the unauthorised
12 destruction of documents."
13 Now, in order for us to understand how these allegations give you
14 concerns for your security, could you clarify for us were these charges
15 or threats? In other words, what is the connection between these
16 allegations and the fears for your security?
17 A. Your Honours, I would only ask for the volume of the
18 interpretation to be raised, because I cannot hear it so well. I
19 understood what the Prosecutor asked me, but, still, could the volume be
11 Pages 11923-11930 redacted. Closed session.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DST-032, the Chamber has considered your
19 request, and I'd like to explain the situation to you.
20 As I told you before, we still have to decide on a request by
21 Serbia to what are your testimony in closed session completely. If we
22 would grant that request, then of course we don't have to further
23 consider your personal concerns. If we would not grant that request and
24 we still have to hear further submissions on that request, then we would
25 be in a position where we would have to decide on your request, your
1 personal concerns. Then we have several options, either to grant the
2 request to hear your testimony -- to keep it all in closed session, or to
3 apply lesser measures, that is face distortion, voice distortion, and
4 pseudonym, or to deny your request completely.
5 Since we'll hear your testimony anyhow provisionally in closed
6 session, we will then be able to include in our considerations the
7 content of your testimony.
8 The reasons you've given are, I would say, relatively weak for
9 granting your personal request. Therefore, if we grant the request of
10 Serbia, there is no problem for you because then it would be closed
11 session. If we do not grant the request from Serbia, I cannot say now
12 that we will wholly or in part grant your request for protective
14 I'd like to explain to you why we are -- what is the interest
15 which might contradict your request, that is, that criminal proceedings
16 should be public to the extent possible. So therefore, we have to
17 balance your personal interest against the interests of the public to be
18 able to follow these proceedings.
19 That is the situation at this moment. Is that clear to you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- then we will proceed on this basis unless
22 any of the parties would like me to say more about it. Apparently not.
23 Then we'll now start with your testimony. You'll first be
24 examined by Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
25 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
11 Pages 11933-11956 redacted. Closed session.
22 has no objections. Earlier today Mr. Jordash informed us that with
23 respect to P179 and P473, that the Stanisic Defence now agrees that the
24 signature on those documents is the signature of Jovica Stanisic. The
25 Chamber will recall both of these were the subject of submissions,
1 written submissions, made on the 5th of March, 2010, the 18th of May,
2 2010, and the 1st of April, 2010. Thank you.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then the documents you just mentioned, had numbers
5 already been assigned to them, Mr. Groome?
6 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Not. Then I'd rather not let the witness wait any
8 further, but Madam Registrar if you would already prepare to assign
9 numbers for those documents.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 1D1407 will have number D245, and 1D1083 would
11 have number D255, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you have dealt with two numbers, whereas
13 three were mentioned by Mr. Groome. Is that --
14 MR. GROOME: The other one was 1D1387.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was the first one you have mentioned.
16 Madam Registrar, that would receive?
17 THE REGISTRAR: That would receive number D256, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D256 and D255 are admitted into evidence. Any
19 need to have them under seal?
20 MR. GROOME: I'm guided by Mr. --
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Both under seal.
23 MR. GROOME: One is a press release. Is it really necessary for
24 that to be under seal?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash will further consider that. 24 -- D245
1 is marked for identification pending further information by Mr. Jordash
2 on authenticity.
3 Mr. Bakrac, you remained seated, therefore I thought -- but now
4 you're on your feet. Is there anything you'd like to add?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to
6 clarify whether it is 1D-- 1D --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the numbers more
8 slowly, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that you find a way out court to see
10 whether the transcript is accurate or not and if there's any problem,
11 please raise the matter at a later stage.
12 Witness DST-032, we have given you our decision, so we are now at
13 a point it start your testimony provisionally in closed session. Before
14 we start, in order to avoid any uncomfortable situations, if Mr. Jordash
15 starts asking questions to you now, what could the Chamber expect? Are
16 you going to answer those questions?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I have to, I will answer them.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think as matters stand now, you are under an
19 obligation to answer those questions. Nevertheless, I already inform
20 you, and I take that the parties would agree with this, that even if we
21 start today that the communications which might make matters more easy
22 would take place anyhow.
23 MR. GROOME: I'm happy to do that. Would the Chamber authorise
24 me to, what's in closed session now, its views on this matter to make
25 them known to Mr. Ignjatovic?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Approval is given for that, and I take it that
4 you'll keep Mr. Jordash informed about any developments on the matter.
5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will briefly start with your examination.
7 There are only ten minutes left, because I have to read another matter as
9 Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
10 Examination by Mr. Jordash:
11 MR. JORDASH: I note from page 77, line 2, that the witness's
12 answer wasn't fully recorded. I think it was translated --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think that what the witness said, if I'm under an
14 obligation to answer the questions, I'll do so. That's what I understood
15 him to say, and then I said that he was under an obligation under the
16 Rules. I didn't add that, but I add this now for the parties.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
11 Pages 11961-11962 redacted. Closed session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, how much time would that take?
6 MR. JORDASH: It's the chart with five exhibits.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd rather -- I have to read a statement of
8 the Chamber first, so therefore I would rather stop for the -- finish for
9 the day as far as the examination of the witness is concerned.
10 Are you tendering what you've put to the witness until now?
11 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please. May I tender them pursuant to 92 ter.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar -- yes, Mr. Bakrac.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may have a minute in
14 order to shorten my cross-examination. With Mr. Groome's and
15 Mr. Jordash's permission, there is a document I wanted to show to the
16 witness which contains eight pages and it might be useful if the witness
17 acquainted himself with it over the weekend so that on Tuesday we could
18 start discussing it more efficiently.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does Mr. Groome know what document you're
20 talking about? Let's say the following, if the parties out of court
21 agree that a document can be shown to the witness, through the
22 intermediary of VWS to the extent they are able to do that, they can pass
23 it on to the witness. We're not going to further now compare what is it,
24 et cetera, find your time and try to achieve the consent of the other
25 parties. The Chamber would not disagree if it would be handed to the
2 Witness DST-032, you might receive a document of a number of
3 pages. If you receive that, then you're invited to carefully read it so
4 that questions may be asked about it when you return. Because we adjourn
5 for the day, and we would like to see you back on Tuesday, the 28th of
6 June, at a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in another courtroom,
7 Courtroom II.
8 Meanwhile, you should not speak with anyone about your testimony
9 whether already given or still to be given, and that would also include
10 representatives of the state of which you are a citizen. You should not
11 speak or communicate in any way about your testimony. It may be of some
12 relief to you that in your absence it has been discussed how the parties
13 could perhaps meet some of the concerns you expressed in communications
14 with Serbia, which might ease the situation a bit, because we are -- of
15 course we are understanding that you do not just feel comfortable in
16 every respect at this moment.
17 You may follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back on
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I would briefly deliver a statement on behalf of the
22 Chamber. It is the Chamber's statement with regard to an amended sitting
23 schedule for the month of July 2011.
24 During the pre-Defence conference on the 14th of June, 2011, the
25 Chamber announced its intention to sit four days instead of three during
1 the first and third week of July. It heard submissions from both Defence
2 teams and from Mr. Stanisic.
3 The Simatovic Defence asked that any proposal for additional
4 sitting days be implemented after the summer recess, and I am reminded
5 that -- from two sides that I should not deal with this in closed
7 We move into open session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Looking at the
11 multitude of people on the public gallery, I just continue.
12 I started saying that I deliver a statement of the Chamber on the
13 sitting schedule in July 2001, that we heard submissions on the matter,
14 that the Simatovic Defence asked that any proposal for additional sitting
15 days be implemented after the summer recess so that the Defence could use
16 the time out of court to prepare its Defence case.
17 The Stanisic Defence, requesting no relief, expressed concern
18 regarding Mr. Stanisic's health should the Chamber decide to move from
19 three to four sitting days on a regular basis.
20 Mr. Stanisic indicated that the Chamber might not have been
21 provided with all the relevant medical information, in particular
22 regarding possible changes in treatment through the latest weekly report.
23 Following the Pre-Defence Conference, the Registry informally indicated
24 to the Chamber that it would consider Mr. Stanisic's submissions in the
25 next weekly medical report.
1 On the 22nd of June, 2011, the reporting medical officer, in his
2 weekly medical report, provided further details as to possible changes in
3 Mr. Stanisic's treatment. Although the reporting medical officer noted
4 some changes in the health situation of Mr. Stanisic, it appears to be
6 The Chamber will continue to carefully monitor Mr. Stanisic's
7 health through the weekly medical reports and through the expert reports
8 submitted every 12 weeks.
9 The Chamber's proposal on scheduling in July is limited to two
10 additional court days over a period of six weeks in court sessions in the
11 Stanisic Defence case, which is planned for June and July. This will
12 then be followed by three weeks of summer recess with no court sessions.
13 Considering this, the Chamber has decided to schedule extra court
14 sessions in the afternoon of the 4th of July, 2011, and in the afternoon
15 of the 18th of July.
16 The Chamber instructs the Stanisic Defence to plan its witnesses
17 accordingly and the Registry to make the necessary arrangements. During
18 or after the summer recess, the Chamber will further consider the
19 long-term sitting schedule in this case.
20 And this concludes the Chamber's statement.
21 We will adjourn for the day, and we resume on Tuesday, the 28th
22 of June, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom II.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.04 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of June,
25 2011, at 2.15 p.m.