1 Monday, 22 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 We have overcome the technical problems we had with the
7 transcription system.
8 Madam Registrar would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
10 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
11 and Franko Simatovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Before we continue with the examination of the witness, there are
14 a few procedural matters I'd like to draw your attention to.
15 The first one: B/C/S translations were missing for the documents
16 which were MFI'd under the numbers D368 and D369. Meanwhile, the
17 Stanisic Defence has informed our Registrar that the translations were
18 uploaded, but have failed to tell the Registrar under what numbers they
19 were uploaded, so she's unable, at this moment, to further work on it.
20 Would you please inform Madam Registrar about that.
21 Once they have been uploaded, they will be admitted into
22 evidence, because the Prosecution has already indicated that they have no
24 Then the corrected pseudonym sheet for Witness DST-044 has been
25 uploaded under number 1D05011.1.
1 Madam Registrar, it had received, already, number D370. You may
2 replace the new version, and D370 is admitted under seal.
3 The last matter I would like to briefly raise: The
4 Stanisic Defence had requested a postponement of four months. That
5 motion, the Chamber has decided on the motion, although reasons to
6 follow. The decision is that we will not sit for four weeks, starting
7 the week of the 5th of September and then that week and the three
8 following weeks, which means that we'll re-start in the first week of
9 October. And I still have to check whether we were scheduled for the --
10 for the 4th. I think it was the 4th, Tuesday, that we are scheduled.
11 So, therefore, four non-sitting weeks, starting the week of the
12 5th of September.
13 This means that, Mr. Jordash, that you're expected to call the
14 witnesses four days this week. And for next week we are scheduled for
15 three days, Tuesday next week is a UN holiday, so we're sitting next week
16 on Wednesday, the 31st of August; Thursday, the 1st of September; and
17 Friday, the 2nd of September.
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- we expect you to present witnesses during
20 those four days and then we'll have four weeks off.
21 These were the matters I would like to raise.
22 If there's nothing else at this moment --
23 Mr. Groome, you're on your feet.
11 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness DST-044. I would like to
10 remind you that the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your
11 testimony, that is that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and
12 nothing but the truth, is still binding you.
13 Mr. Jordash will now continue his examination.
14 WITNESS: DST-044
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Can you hear me?
18 A. [In English] Hi. [No interpretation]
19 Q. Let's just go back very briefly to Lazar Sarac, who you were
20 discussing last week. And you testified that he had assisted you by
21 providing you with information concerning illegal weapons. What kind of
22 illegal weapons and who were they owned or possessed by?
23 A. [Interpretation] For the most part, hunting weapons. It was
24 either illegally owned by people who remained whilst the rightful owners
25 of those weapons had left Ilok by this time. Some of the weapons were
1 illegally owned by Serbs who, at the time, in a way unknown to me, had
2 managed to obtain military weapons. But that was the case to a lesser
3 extent, because the -- all of them were some -- to some extent able to
4 join the illegal military formations and thereby obtain weapons. But as
5 far as I remember, they certainly did illegally own military weapons.
6 Q. It may sound like an obvious question, but just so that we're
7 clear: Why was Sarac giving you this information? What did you do with
9 A. Lazar Sarac was not the only source of that kind of information.
10 That was his job. I also obtained that kind of information from retired
11 police officers over there, the local population, especially those who
12 knew about the circumstances and who knew that people were illegally
13 holding weapons. Illegal ownership of holding of weapons was also
14 something that was relevant to us in intelligence terms.
15 Q. What would you do once you'd received the information? What
16 would be a standard response, if there was one?
17 A. We would respond in the following way: We would search the
18 specified location, we would seize any weapons found there, we would
19 issue a certificate and hand the weapons over to be kept elsewhere. As
20 for the person involved or the specific person or an unknown perpetrator
21 who was found to be in illegal possession of weapons, we would file a
22 complaint against this individual.
23 Q. And would there be any -- let me start that again.
24 Would you inform Sarac that you'd taken action in relation to the
25 illegal weapons that he'd identified?
1 A. No. That wasn't my job, nor was it his job to receive
2 information like that. His job was to gather information and to forward
3 information, and then we would act on it.
4 Q. Did you any -- sorry, let me start that again.
5 Did you ever receive any information that Sarac was involved in
6 weapons supplies himself?
7 A. No. I never received information like that.
8 Q. How many times do you think you received information from Sarac
9 which enabled you to seize illegally held weapons or which enabled you to
10 begin investigating into illegally held weapons?
11 A. The fairest answer would be: Every time I received information.
12 There wasn't really that much there. There weren't that many weapons
13 being illegally held. When there's a lot of information coming your way,
14 you need to ask yourself how accurate is it. Nearly every time I
15 received information it proved to be useful, but I can't specify how many
16 pieces of information I received over this time in relation to that.
17 Q. What kind of time-period are we talking about that you were
18 receiving this kind of information from Sarac?
19 A. Between the 2nd of November, 1991, and the 15th of June, 1992.
11 Pages 13398-13406 redacted. Closed session.
16 MR. JORDASH: Could we have D373, please, on the screen.
17 Could the witness be given something to write with.
18 Q. First of all, would you indicate where Pajzos was located, or is
19 located, and ...
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Perhaps you could put an X against that.
22 A. An X?
23 Q. Yeah.
24 A. I actually do not have sufficient space here, no.
25 Towards Bapska, Ilok towards Bapska. Can I correct it?
1 Q. One second. Let's -- perhaps we could start this again, if
2 that's okay with everyone.
3 Let's just take it step by step. Please indicate with the
4 number 1 where Pajzos is.
5 A. Well, I've now marked it with an X.
6 Q. That's --
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I may make a suggestion. I would
8 have no objection to the witness over the break taking a map with the
9 roads and far more zoomed in on the area of concern and marking it during
10 the break, if that's of assistance.
11 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. I'd be happy with that. Perhaps we can
12 save some time then.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now the witness has described it. Would it be
14 difficult to -- would there be major problems in finding it on the basis
15 of his description? I mean, if you ask me whether there are four ways to
16 Amsterdam, then I could say: You come from Utrecht to Amsterdam or from
17 The Hague, A-4, A-44. That would be issue I have, if you have a reliable
18 map. Even without further explanation you would be -- the only thing on
19 the precise map you would have to know, then, of course, with the
20 Google Earth these days. Unless there are any specific problems why you
21 would --
22 MR. JORDASH: Well, what I'd like the witness to do is to
23 indicate the routes and also, in addition to that, indicate where there
24 was check-points to the -- on those routes so that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine. But then let's -- let's then move a map
1 which is precise enough to -- to assist.
2 MR. JORDASH: I ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: If could you print out a map.
4 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Again, over the next break, if the witness could do
6 that. But, of course, then he needs a map which can be used for those
8 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
9 Q. Did you follow that, Mr. Witness, that over the break we'll give
10 you a map and if would you indicate three things on the map? I don't
11 know if you'll remember this: Firstly, where Pajzos is, or was;
12 secondly, the route to Pajzos; and, thirdly, where any check-points were
13 on those routes, whether military or police check-points.
14 Do you follow me?
15 A. Yes. I will do so.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. JORDASH: And, Your Honours, would it be okay if we had that
18 break now?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We had a bit of a late start. Yes, I can
20 imagine that you'd like to have this --
21 Could you give an indication on how much time you would need
22 after when we take the break now.
23 MR. JORDASH: At most, 30 minutes, but I'd hope to finish in 20.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look. You used, until now, one hour
25 and 13 minutes, 13 minutes approximately. Yes. Then let's proceed as
1 you suggest.
2 Do you have a map, a map of such detail that the witness can
3 meaningfully work on it?
4 MR. JORDASH: Not as yet, but we'll find one as quickly as
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because the break is only 30 minutes, for the
7 witness to do the job and for you to prepare the map.
8 Okay. We'll resume at five minutes to 4.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.26 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 3.58 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. May I hand the completed map to the
13 learned Legal Officer, please, or learned usher.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Learned usher.
15 MR. JORDASH: Could -- it's been shown to the Prosecution
16 already. Could it just -- oh, it hasn't; I beg your pardon.
17 And perhaps to the Trial Chamber as well.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if we put it on the ELMO, then ...
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we could have a look at it.
21 MR. JORDASH:
22 Q. Would you --
23 MR. JORDASH: The focus is a little difficult.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way that we can zoom in on the part
25 which is marked. Could we move in some further?
1 MR. JORDASH: I think that's good. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Let's try to shortcut this as much as possible.
3 Is there -- we can see the three routes, I think, there, which
4 begin with a circle and dash in the circle; is that right?
5 Mr. Witness?
6 A. Yes. That's how I circled the -- or marked the check-points.
7 Q. All right. So one route from -- or leading from Vukovar; one
8 from Lovas; one from Bapska; one from Ilok?
9 A. Yes, that's right. The one leading from Vukovar I marked
10 additionally, and I also added Opatovac village which is an area that
11 bordered on Ilok Police Station. A check-point was set up there that was
12 manned by Ilok. The main check-point was on the road leading into Ilok
13 from the Sid-Backa Palanka direction, just off the 25th of May Bridge.
14 It was also manned and under the control of the Ilok Police Station and
15 the army, of course. There was another check-point in the Sid-Bapska
16 direction, and those were check-points held by Ilok.
17 Lovas also had a check-point at the spot that I marked, but it
18 was controlled jointly by the army and Tovarnik Police.
19 Q. Thank you. During the period from September 1991 until you left
20 Ilok in June of 1992, did you receive any information from either your
21 work in Dalj, your work in Ilok, or from these check-points which gave
22 you information that there was a training camp in Pajzos?
23 A. I received information through direct contact with those present
24 in the group at Pajzos. I received no information of that kind from the
25 check-points. There was no need for that, given the fact that at the
1 time not a single column of those vehicles or, indeed, a large number of
2 people passed those check-points. I and the military command of the town
3 would certainly have received word about that from check-points had that
4 been the case.
5 Q. And what information did you receive through direct contact with
6 those present in the group at Pajzos as to the activities that were
7 ongoing at Pajzos? What did they say about what they were doing?
8 A. That is the nature of the SDB's work, and that applied to the
9 work of that group too. It's all classified. I didn't want to know, and
10 they never saw fit to report to me on what exactly they were doing.
11 Q. Did you receive any information concerning any supplies being
12 taken to Pajzos? Supplies which might have helped to set up and run a
13 training base.
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. And, finally, did any military commander or rank and file ever
16 tell you or send you a written report indicating that they were aware of
17 a training base in Pajzos?
18 A. The town command, Colonel Grahovac, and later on also
19 Colonel Peulic, knew about the existence of that group in the same way
20 that I did. When he asked me whether I knew about their fundamental
21 activity, the reply they received was negative. Their intelligence
22 officers, people whose work was basically classified, did, I assume, have
23 appropriate information about the work of that group, and --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
25 last part of the answer. Thank you.
1 MR. JORDASH:
2 Q. Could you repeat the last two sentences of your answer, please,
3 Mr. Witness.
4 A. I mentioned that the town command, which had an intelligence
5 officer working there, a security officer working there, never asked me
6 specifically to check what the basic activity was of the Pajzos Group,
7 being performed by the Pajzos Group. I assume that their own security
8 forces were in possession of valid information and were happy with their
10 Q. Slightly different question but related: Did you ever receive
11 information that the group at Ilok -- sorry, the group at Pajzos was
12 engaged in military operations with Biorcevic or Ivanovic or any other
13 person from the Novi Sad Corps?
14 A. No. Up until the 15th of June, 1992, I had not so much as an
15 inkling of any information like that.
16 Q. Or that they were joining in combat operations with the TO
17 of SBWS?
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Wayne's question be
21 interpreted again; it wasn't interpreted properly into the Serbian and
22 might mislead the witness.
23 So the question could please be interpreted.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to have it interpreted again.
25 Whether it was interpreted appropriately or not is to be decided if there
1 is any need to do so.
2 Which question, Mr. Petrovic? Is it about joining in combat
3 operations, is that ... or the previous one?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I mean the question
5 asked at page 22, line 4.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Mr. Jordash, could you slowly repeat the question you have asked
8 the witness, page 22 line 4.
9 And perhaps you make it a full sentence which would require you
10 to start at your previous question and to make a full sentence.
11 Could I otherwise try to do it.
12 The group at Pajzos, did you ever receive information that they
13 were joining in combat operations with the TO of the SBWS?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never received information
15 like that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. I see that Mr. Petrovic is -- has
17 no concerns about the question and its translation anymore.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. During the time you were in Ilok, the time you were commander of
21 the Ilok station, was there any training base that you were aware of in
23 A. No, none. There wasn't, to begin with, an appropriate training
24 ground in Ilok to have training there.
25 Q. What would have been an appropriate training ground, and why
1 wasn't there a place for such a ground in Ilok?
2 A. Well, as for possible locations and potential reasons to
3 establish a training centre somewhere, that kind of decision would have
4 been taken by the relevant officers from the army or from the police.
5 But there was no such thing, which leads me to assume that it wasn't
7 As for any other type of training, from all the different areas,
8 of course, that sort of thing can be conducted in a simple room; such as
9 topography training, for example.
10 Q. Sir, if I understand what you're saying: No one approached the
11 relevant officers from the army or the police, as far as you were aware
12 of, to establish a training centre in Ilok; is that a fair summary of
13 what you've just said?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you're not suggesting that other types of training, like
16 topography, might have -- did -- definitely did not happen in Ilok?
17 A. No. I mentioned topography merely as an example. The kind of
18 training that you can have practically in your bedroom. As for proper,
19 quality training of military and police forces meant to be involved in
20 some sort of combat activity, that is certainly not something you could
21 do in a small room. Had there been a training ground like that being
22 established anywhere throughout the Ilok area, I would have known about
23 it. I do not include Pajzos here. They had special powers over there,
24 but I don't know whether it was, indeed, possible to stage a thing like
25 that over there.
1 Q. In terms of Ilok, how many police officers did you have to cover
2 Ilok, and what kind of square-kilometre distance did they cover?
3 A. From the time the police force started operating in Ilok, there
4 were 60 men performing their duties there.
5 As for the stretch between Ilok and Opatovac, in the roughest of
6 terms the distance would have been about 20 kilometres as far as I now
7 remember. And then due south, as far as Bapska. The territory would
8 have been 3 to 4 kilometres deep. You're asking me about square
9 kilometres, so I'm trying to do the math there; four times two, which
10 would have amounted to about 80 square kilometres.
11 Q. And how many square kilometres would you estimate is Ilok itself?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Jordash, this is all information which
13 comes far more reliably by looking at maps and measuring distances rather
14 than to rely on the memory of ... but it's also the -- asking about the
15 distance in square kilometres is, of course -- I mean, square kilometres
16 are for a surface, and distances are from one point to another point,
17 isn't it?
18 But let's -- let's move on. But estimates about how far one
19 place is from another --
20 MR. JORDASH: I'll leave it at that and try and find some
21 accurate figures.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay.
23 MR. JORDASH: If I can ... could we have on the screen - I want
24 to move quite quickly through three or four exhibits and then I've
25 finished, Mr. Witness.
1 First, 1D05015, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Jordash, I also intervened because if the
3 witness is talking about 20 kilometres and 3 to 4 kilometres and if he
4 then starts multiplying by making it four times two and then says it's
5 80, then, of course, he must have intended to say four times 20. But
6 that's exactly the kind of ... you see that?
7 MR. JORDASH: I do see that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So let's just understand that the witness wanted to
9 multiply 20 by 4, which actually makes 80 square kilometres.
10 Please proceed.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the calculation at
12 the time: 20 long, 4 wide. Calculation is not exactly my strong suit.
13 I was never very good at math. But I do have a rough idea of how long
14 the territory was and how deep.
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. Okay. Thank you.
17 MR. JORDASH: Could we have page -- I think it's page 7 of the
19 Q. Could I just confirm with you, Mr. Witness, the objective of
20 Srem. This is from the work-plan of the Ruma Police Station for
21 July of 1993, composed by the MUP of Serbia SUP Sremska Mitrovica
22 Ruma Police Station.
23 And it says the following: "Srem" -- please listen to this
24 description, Mr. Witness, and see if you confirm this was the instruction
25 that you received or the objective purpose of Operation Srem.
1 "Srem, according to the work-plan for the said action which is
2 being prepared for the area of the Ruma organ of the interior, one shall
3 undertake all measures to protect personal and proprietary safety of
4 citizens and in particular on the territories of local communes with
5 mixed national structure."
6 There's some locations given there, including Hrtkovci and
8 Was that your understanding of Operation Srem, to protect
9 citizens, and in particular on the territories of local communes with
10 mixed national structure?
11 A. Yes. That is a very good way to phrase the essence of the task
12 that was meant to be carried out by the service. The task came from the
13 Ministry of Interior, and the task was entitled "Operation Srem."
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. JORDASH: May I tendered this as an exhibit, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
11 Page 13419 redacted. Closed session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: The would be D380, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D380 is marked for identification.
5 Mr. Jordash, you might find a moment with Mr. Groome to further
6 discuss the provenance of the document.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
9 Could we have 1D04932, please.
10 Q. Would you just have a very quick read through this, Mr. Witness,
11 and comment as to whether this accords with your understanding of the
12 refugee situation at this point in time, 17th of December, 1991.
13 A. I've had a quick read, as you asked.
14 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... let's go to --
15 A. But I do have a general idea about the substance.
16 Q. Let's go to the second page so you've got the whole document.
17 A. Yes, I've had another quick read. But I get the general idea.
18 Q. And does the general idea accord with your --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, is the witness looking at the same
20 document, the same part of the document, as we are looking at at this
21 moment? I have some difficulties in ...
22 MR. JORDASH: Could I just have a moment.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, I usually orient myself, for example, on
24 numbers, which are usually the same in the two versions. But I really
25 have great difficulties in getting the two together.
1 MR. JORDASH: I didn't see Your Honour's concern.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, if we want to understand the testimony
3 and the comment of the witness on a document, then it's good that we --
4 MR. JORDASH: The first page.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- see what the document is about. Perhaps it's the
6 first page; I do not know.
7 MR. JORDASH: The first page is the same.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The first page is the same. Let's have a look at
10 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps I can deal with it in this way,
11 Your Honour, to save time.
12 As I understand the situation, the Prosecution doesn't object to
13 these exhibits, and I'm happy to tender them -- oh, no. Mr. Groome's
14 shaking his head, so ...
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution position with respect
16 to the document that's on the screen. Mr. Jordash informs me that this
17 is from Mr. Seselj's book. I accept his representation that he's
18 verified that it's not the subject of any protective measures, but the
19 Prosecution position is that it appears to be a reference or a copy of
20 some document in the possession of the Serb government and it is more
21 appropriate that Mr. Jordash seek a request for assistance to get the
22 original rather than us relying on Mr. Seselj's paraphrasing or retyping
23 of that document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have -- let me have a -- let me have a look
25 at the document.
1 The top, it starts with the -- the SSUP. It gives a date. It
2 says: "For the secretary." That's all clear.
3 Then we get a first line in which we see a reference to the dates
4 the 12th and the 16th of December, 1991. That's fine as well.
5 Now, in the next sentence in the original, I find a reference to
6 the 16th of December, 1991, again, and I, for example, I -- if I'm not
7 mistaken, I see some reference to Banja Luka, I think, the first
8 sentence. And I can --
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I can assist.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I do not see anything at all. I see a number of
11 20.000 in the English version, where I do not find any reference to
12 20.000 in the original.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I can assist. I hadn't realized, and
14 it wasn't supposed to have been done in this way, but there's only been a
15 partial translation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes, and --
17 MR. JORDASH: And so what I'm going to do is have a full
18 translation done and then I'll either tender it through another witness
19 or tender it --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that would be the best solution.
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, if I see it at first sight, Mr. Jordash,
23 then -- I mean, it's not that difficult to find out. Then it doesn't
24 damage your case if you look at the documents precisely as well.
25 MR. JORDASH: Well, there's a lot of documents. Sometimes I miss
1 some things.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it takes me 30 seconds to find out that
3 it's not --
4 Let's proceed, and let's, at this moment, forget about this
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 1D05019.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to add to that: That, as such, there is no
9 major objection to having relevant parts of the document translated, but
10 then it should be clear what we are looking at in the one language and
11 what we are looking at in the other language.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
14 Q. I don't wish to dwell on this for a long time, Mr. Witness, but
15 would you have a look at this and explain very briefly whether this type
16 of document was a common document produced by you as commander of the
17 Ilok Police Station. And also, was the work described typical or not of
18 the Ilok Police Station at this point in time?
19 A. Yes. This is a document I signed as the commander of the
20 Ilok Police Station. It is a document typical of the times, of the
21 events at the time. Every second or third day, the Danube would wash on
22 the shore several bodies from the -- on the banks several bodies from
23 Vukovar. Those bodies which were found in the area of Ilok, we would
24 take out those bodies, we would photograph them, we would conduct an
25 on-site investigation, and we would press charges against unknown
1 perpetrators when we found out that the bodies had gun-shot wounds. And
2 we filed no complaints when they were no signs of violence on the bodies.
3 And all these bodies were -- which were unidentified were duly buried at
4 the local cemetery in Ilok, and marked also.
5 MR. JORDASH: There's two more documents like this, but they're
6 exactly the same. With the Prosecution's agreement, I hope, could we
7 tendered this document and also 1D05021 and 1D05020, which are similar
8 documents reflecting the work of -- or some of the work of the Ilok
9 Police Station.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no objection to this document.
11 The witness recognises his own signature on it, so based on that I have
12 no objection. I have not -- did not know what the other two documents
13 are. Is Mr. Jordash saying that this witness has signed those documents
14 as well?
15 MR. JORDASH: Well, signed 1D ... 021. And as for 1D05020, it's
16 a very, very similar document but doesn't have Mr. Knezevic's signature
17 on it. But it's again reflective, we submit, of the work of the
18 Ilok Police Station.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I trust Mr. Jordash's representations,
20 but it might be more appropriate to have the witness just look briefly at
21 the document, identify his own signature. And if he does, I'll have no
22 objection. Or perhaps he recognises the signature of the third document
23 as a colleague.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash may have a little problem as far as time
25 is concerned. The 30 minutes or the possibly 20 minutes are ...
1 I suggest that the documents, copies of the documents, will be
2 given to the witness during the next break and he have look at it,
3 whether he recognises one of the signatures, and that we move on for this
9 Last question, if I may: Operation Srem, how many people
10 participated in that from the Serbian MUP, please?
11 A. All the people involved in the Srem operation were members of the
12 Serbian MUP.
13 Q. Do you have any idea of how many men or women, or men and women,
14 were employed on the operation?
15 A. Yes. With reinforced forces of the police and the crime police
16 from Ruma, where the seat was of the staff of the Operation Srem, we had
17 reinforcements from there. And we also engaged an additional number of
18 at least one squad from each of the organisational units in the
19 Sremska Mitrovica area, numbering between eight and ten persons, and
20 there were six such organisational units outside Ruma. Also, from the
21 area of Serbia, whether it was from Belgrade, Novi Sad, or Nis, we
22 regularly also had a platoon of special police units standing by. These
23 were not special police units. These were the PJPs who were better
24 trained than the regular police force members were. So that this platoon
25 which was 25 men strong would always be standing by and would
1 occasionally patrol the endangered rural areas. I meant the ethnically
2 endangered villages Hrtkovci, Platicevo, and Nitinci [phoen] primarily.
3 MR. JORDASH: I've got no further questions. Thank you.
11 Pages 13428-13429 redacted. Closed session.
1 Mr. Petrovic, will it be you who will cross-examine the witness
2 and are you ready to start?
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will be doing
4 the questioning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DST-044, you will now be cross-examined by
6 Mr. Petrovic. Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness. First of all I should
11 like to ask you a question which refers to what His Honour has just asked
12 you about.
13 Do you recall whether this raid, this terrorist raid, in the
14 Apatin sector, at the time when it happened, was it -- was there
15 immediate coverage? Was it reported about by the newspapers, television
16 in Serbian in the region?
17 A. I do not remember that, but I got this information from the
18 service, and I got it immediately.
11 Page 13431 redacted. Closed session.
10 Q. Mr. Witness, let us -- or, rather, would you please look at
11 Exhibit P11.
12 You already perused that piece of evidence with my colleague
13 Jordash. Just a minute, it will appear on the screen shortly.
14 Take a look at the left bottom corner where it is stated:
15 Submitted to the secretary of the UP of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western
17 What the secretary of the UP?
18 A. I don't know. I cannot tell you that.
19 Q. Is it perhaps the secretary of the interior of the
20 Autonomous Province of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?
21 A. In view of the fact that this is hardly legible, I can say,
22 because it is logical, that the UP stands for the police administration.
23 And as at the bottom, I can also see: Commander to the -- to the
24 commander of the special unit Zavisic; it could be the police
25 administration. And then also addressed to him as one who was involved
1 in the work of the police in Erdut. Not of the special police unit but
2 of the police generally in Erdut.
3 Q. Mr. Witness, so under number 1 it is certainly an organ of the
4 interior organ of the police of the Autonomous Province of Slavonia,
5 Baranja, and Western Srem irrespective of what the abbreviation stands
7 A. Yes, I'm sure of that. It depends on who it was addressed to.
8 Of course, the commander of police station can only address such a
9 message to a police administration.
10 Q. Please let us make pauses, Witness. I'm not waiting for your
11 answer when I do make a pause, I'm waiting for the interpreters to do
12 their work. I also am guilty of making that mistake myself but do let us
13 make an effort.
14 Okay. So we have dealt with item 1. Under item 2 it says: To
15 the commander of the special unit Zavisic.
16 Tell me, why was this report send to Zavisic? If you know that.
17 A. Zavisic was the deputy of Radovan Stojicic. He was not formally
18 the commander of the special units. And why this was sent to him and not
19 to Radovan Stojicic, which would have been logical, only logical in
20 the -- in respect of this case, of this document, I really don't know.
11 Pages 13434-13446 redacted. Closed session.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Let us please just look at 1D3511.
10 Q. Witness, please look at the bottom half of the page.
11 In English, the entire document is on this one page.
12 Please, I refer you to the bottom of your page.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] So can we see the second page in
14 B/C/S, because in English it is all on just one page.
15 Q. The top half, Mr. Witness.
16 [No interpretation]
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Witness, did you know that the unit which was entitled the
19 Red Berets was formed by an order of the president of the Republic of the
20 Serbian Krajina. Are you aware of that?
21 A. No, I'm not. I do not know that.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that concludes my
23 questioning, my examination of this witness. I should like to ask that
24 this document be marked for identification, Your Honours, pending our
25 acquisition of the original of this document. And this is a document
1 from the already well-known Croatian collection of documents.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: With respect to this document, Your Honour, I would
4 ask that it be marked for identification at this stage.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
7 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D382, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
9 Before we continue, Mr. Jordash, would it be good that we ask the
10 witness about the two documents you have provided to him?
11 MR. JORDASH: I can indicate, Your Honour, that the two documents
12 were provided to him. He recognised his signature on both. With
13 Your Honours' leave, I would apply to tender them, I think with the
14 agreement of the Prosecution, and we'll upload this version. And we may
15 not have to go back to the witness again on the issue.
16 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, the documents are sufficiently
19 And is it true, Witness DST-044, that you recognised, on both the
20 documents you reviewed during the break, your own signature?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is indubitable. And I
22 confirmed that by my signature, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
24 Madam Registrar, the numbers to be assigned to these two
25 documents would be ...
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the documents have been identified under
3 their D numbers, and they're among a list, Madam Registrar, which you
4 will pre-assign numbers to; is that correct?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D5019 will receive number D383.
6 Document 1D5020, will receive number D384.
7 And document 1D5021 will receive number D385, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And D383 up to and including D385 are admitted into
10 Before we now continue, one question to the parties. On the
11 basis of the evidence of this witness and on the basis of the evidence of
12 other witnesses we've heard earlier, there was something in Pajzos. I
13 leave it open whether it was a training centre or not. Some witnesses
14 testified to that extent, others have testified that there was a group
15 or -- and that there was a location. Apparently it was linked to a
16 former politician. Now, is there any disagreement between the parties
17 about the location? Not -- I'm not talking about what the location
18 exactly -- what was done at that location. But is there any -- is there
19 agreement between the parties about apparently a structure of premises
20 which you referred to when you were asking questions about a group at
21 Pajzos, and what the Prosecution apparently considers to be a training
23 MR. JORDASH: I don't think there is any disagreement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 MR. JORDASH: We can --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Why, then, do we ask questions about where it was
2 exactly, et cetera? And why not tell the Chamber that, whatever was done
3 at that location, when you're talking about the Pajzos training centre,
4 when you or you are talking about a group perhaps defending
5 communications structures, that it was there so that we know that. I
6 mean, elevation lines, et cetera, are easily to agree upon, I would say,
7 and what kind of site you have.
8 Because questions are asked about it and are answered by the
9 witness, but, of course, a well-laid out, I would say, Google-maps
10 location or something like that with satellite pictures gives a complete
11 information about what fields are around. Of course, the woods may have
12 been changed slightly since then. But that we have agreed facts on that.
13 Not on what was done there, apparently, because there the parties seem to
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? Okay. The Chamber would like to receive that
17 as soon as possible. You could even consider for other -- we have had
18 other locations as well where there seems to be no disagreement about
19 what location we are talking about and that the difference is, rather, on
20 who was responsible, what was done, et cetera, so that we have a clear
21 picture of all these locations.
22 Then, Mr. Groome, are you ready to --
23 Mr. Petrovic, you are ...
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just another
25 question, briefly. In connection with the 6250 exhibit which I tendered,
1 my learned colleague Mr. Groome has informed me that he's withdrawing his
2 objection, so that I propose that this exhibit be admitted as a Defence
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not sure about the 65 ter number.
5 The one I withdraw my objection to is D381, marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that was because numbers is not my ...
7 MR. GROOME: It's the one where I asked for the break to consider
8 our position.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Where we rejected the relevance and
10 where we marked it for identification in order to hear further about the
11 provenance, was that the one?
12 MR. GROOME: I was considering that, Your Honour. But having
13 considered it further, I withdraw the objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then D381 is admitted into evidence.
15 No need to have it under seal? Or ...
16 MR. GROOME: I believe my colleagues would be better placed to
17 answer that question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes -- yes, Your Honours. It is
20 D381. Thank you, Your Honours.
21 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do note that it does have the name of
22 this witness, so at least provisionally it seems it would have to be
23 under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me briefly have a look at it.
25 D381 is admitted under seal.
1 Please proceed.
2 Witness DST-044, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Groome.
3 Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution.
11 Pages 13453-13473 redacted. Closed session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, the
24 23rd of August, at quarter past 2.00 in this same Courtroom II.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of
2 August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.