1 Thursday, 1 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It seems that there is
10 a microphone open close to where some noise is produced by typing. Now
11 it's better.
12 Before we continue: Mr. Jordash - and I should address
13 Mr. Bakrac as well - when do you expect to receive the guarantees from
14 the Serbian government in relation to provisional release?
15 MR. JORDASH: Actually, I don't know that answer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because that's always part of our decision.
17 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So if we want to consider that, which is not in any
19 way anticipating on whether we will grant or deny, but that's, of course,
20 usually if you offer guarantees, they should be there for us to consider.
21 MR. JORDASH: I'll have that checked and hopefully give you an
22 answer today.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Mr. Bakrac, same question to you.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for
1 interrupting you. Maybe I can assist. I tried to find out yesterday,
2 and I believe the chances are that the guarantees would be decided on
3 today. It is not a hundred per cent certain thing, but I was told that
4 it would be presented to the government today and that they would reach a
5 decision today as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So hopefully we have this information tomorrow.
7 And, again, I emphasize that this question is a matter of routine and is
8 not in any way to be understood as in anticipation of a decision in one
9 direction or another.
10 Yes. Could I further ask an update in relation to
11 Witness DST-040. There's an application by the Prosecution to postpone
12 cross-examination. There were a few matters, and I think the -- if I
13 could say, the continuous development of lists of documents and comments
14 is of great concern to the Prosecution, the list changing and the
15 comments changing on a daily basis. The number increasing considerably.
16 That's at least what the Chamber has understood from an informal e-mail
17 exchange to which -- of which the Chamber was copied. That's one issue.
18 The other one was the recently received RFA material where
19 Mr. Jordash yesterday told us that the bulk of it or at least the major
20 part of it was about the Djindjic case, from what I understand, and you
21 considered it of little or no relevance for the present case. I
22 suggested that you would exchange views on that and to further identify
23 that. I would like you to give a brief update to the Chamber so that we
24 can further develop our thoughts on the matter.
25 MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] We've had time to reflect
1 on a number of issues overnight --
2 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be -- your microphone, at least the
3 light is on but I do not hear you on channel 4. Could you test it again,
4 Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: We've had ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be fine now.
7 MR. JORDASH: We've had time to reflect overnight on a number of
8 issues relating to this witness, and unfortunately we also have to apply
9 to adjourn the witness, and I'll outline how we've arrived at this view.
10 Firstly, in relation to this witness, Your Honours will know who
11 he is and the role - it is accepted by Prosecution and Defence - that he
12 played, perhaps "role" is the wrong word, but function. I understand
13 we're in an open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps we could --
16 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. We could turn into private
17 session if that's what you are asking for.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 13732-13747 redacted. Private session.
15 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness DST-063. First of all, our
12 apologies for the late start. We had to deal with a few procedural
13 matters, and unfortunately you had to wait. I would also like to remind
14 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at
15 the beginning of your testimony, that is, that you will speak the truth,
16 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 Ms. Marcus will now continue her cross-examination.
18 WITNESS: DST-063 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]
21 Q. Good afternoon, DST-063.
22 A. Good afternoon to you, too.
23 Q. Yesterday when we adjourned we were discussing your retroactive
24 false reassignment signed by Jovica Stanisic to Kosovo from August to
25 December 1991. I have just one or two follow-up questions on that topic
1 for you.
2 At transcript page 13718, you said, in response to
3 His Honour Judge Orie's question, you said:
4 "I know that I was supposed to get some finances that would cover
5 per diems and separated life and that there was no modus that could be
6 found to take care of it."
7 Now, when we asked you to explain this, you said this was a
9 Isn't it true that at that time, in the second half of 1991,
10 Kosovo was a part of Serbia but Eastern Slavonia was not?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. So a document which would change where you actually were, which
13 was outside Serbia, to a location inside Serbia where your expenses would
14 have been justified, is that how you view this document?
15 JUDGE ORIE: This is a very ambiguous question, Ms. Marcus.
16 Would you please be more clear.
17 MS. MARCUS: I will do my best, Your Honour.
18 Q. Do we understand you correctly that, in your understanding, this
19 document would have changed where you actually were operating, which was
20 outside Serbia, to a place which would have been justified, inside
21 Serbia? Is that how we understand this document?
22 A. I am not sure I've fully understood your question. As a member
23 of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, we're talking
24 1991, the country was still whole. My deployment to any of the other
25 republics, I don't know what sort of status that would give me in respect
1 of the ministry in Serbia. But I did say yesterday that I viewed this as
2 merely an administrative document, as paperwork to resolve some of my
3 entitlements. I said that they could have deployed me to Nis, Nis was
4 part of the Republic of Serbia, and the effect would have been the same
5 as in this instance where I am deployed to Kosovo.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You've explained that yesterday very clearly.
7 Could I ask a few very focussed questions.
8 As a member of the Serbian DB, could you be operationally active
9 in any of the other republics - Croatia, Bosnia, wherever - without the
10 consent of that republic? To be more precise: Could you be operationally
11 active in Croatia without the approval of the Croatian authorities, as
12 matters stood in 1991?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give you an answer based on
14 certainty, but I don't think that it would have been possible.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, then, the next question is: Have you ever
16 considered the possibility that apart from the financial arrangements,
17 that this document also would make invisible that you were operationally
18 active outside of Serbia; whereas, you said you think that you could not
19 have been operationally active there and that that would more or less
20 hide a place of operational activity which was not within the legal
21 structure. My question is whether you have ever considered that
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This possibility never crossed my
24 mind, simply for the reason that it would have been impossible to hide my
25 deployment. I was there under my full name, and having been sent by my
1 employer, the matter was simply impossible to conceal. That's why I
2 never thought about it that way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But would you agree with me that on the
4 administrative level it would at least not reveal that you were there,
5 this document? That you were in Croatia.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Administratively, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
9 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Feel free to -- I don't know whether I touched upon
11 more or less the subject you were approaching as well.
12 MS. MARCUS: That was, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But feel free to further explore the matter if you
14 wish to do so.
15 MS. MARCUS: I just have perhaps one more question.
16 Q. If the point was to justify paying you, let's say, a higher
17 amount than you would have been eligible for had you been deployed very
18 near, could the document not have said "Knin," for example? You were
19 deployed to Knin. That's far. Why couldn't the document have said that
20 you were deployed to Knin?
21 A. Well, as far as I know, Knin is in Croatia.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you.
23 Now, yesterday, during your testimony, at page 13654, you stated:
24 "I was just an operative. You must understand that."
25 At page 13694, you stated:
1 "You must understand that I was an operative, and that is the
2 lowest level within my service at the time."
3 Then on this same topic, at page 13712, you stated:
4 "My level of awareness at the time is very modest ... I had very
5 clear tasks ..."
6 Now, the way you have explained your lack of information about
7 very serious events going on around you is that you were at the lowest
8 level of the DB service, you had circumscribed tasks, and your interests
9 were not in the areas that I asked you about.
10 I would like to ask you some questions about some other documents
11 contained in your Serbian DB personnel file.
11 Pages 13754-13759 redacted. Closed session.
14 Q. Did you attend the Kula award ceremony in 1997?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'm going to show you a still taken from the video that was taken
17 at that award ceremony.
18 MS. MARCUS: The video of the ceremony is admitted in this case
19 as P61.
20 Q. And I'm going to show you a picture from that video.
21 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 6260.
22 For the record, this is taken from minute 23 and 12 seconds of P61.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MS. MARCUS:
25 Q. There are two people depicted in this photo. One is clearly
1 Franko Simatovic. Can you tell us who the other one is?
2 A. Yes. That's my chief, Milovan Popivoda.
3 MS. MARCUS: Could I tender this into evidence, please. I think
4 it can be public.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Madam Registrar, in the absence of any objections, the number
7 would be ...
8 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P3016, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P3016 is admitted into evidence. It's a public
11 MS. MARCUS: I have to correct the record. I've given the wrong
12 time-code. I apologise for that. This is taken from minute 37 and
13 17 seconds.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Could I have 65 ter 6251 on the screen, please. Page 2 in both
18 English and B/C/S.
19 Q. Now, DST-063, you told us that you took part in the negotiations
20 for the Erdut Agreement in 1995. What you're going to see is an article
21 from the Croatian newspaper "Vjesnik" from October 1995 regarding these
22 international negotiations for the Erdut Agreement. This article states
23 that among the representatives of the Serbs at the meeting were
24 Milan Milanovic, Slavko Dokmanovic, Zlatko Modlek, Milan Lakic,
25 Ilija Kojic, Dusan Loncar, and Goran Hadzic. The meeting took place in
1 the Erdut Castle, and Stoltenberg and Galbraith were mediating.
2 My question to you is: The people I have listed from this article
3 are in fact all -- or, let's say, were in fact all representatives of the
4 Serbs in the SBWS; is that correct?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Then perhaps you can tell me who they were.
7 A. Milan Lakic, that's me.
8 Q. So you were using an alias name while you were attending
9 international negotiations for the Erdut Agreement?
10 A. One can describe it in such a way, but only to a degree.
11 Q. Who were you trying to deceive?
12 A. I wasn't trying to deceive anyone. That was just for the
13 announcement of negotiations with the Croatian delegation. Up until that
14 point, I was using my own name. Or, rather, nobody actually asked me
15 what my name was.
16 Q. Why could you not just say who you were?
17 A. It was a professional task. And I don't see why under such
18 conditions and in such a situation as part of my intelligence duties I
19 would present myself under my own name. That's not strange, and it
20 wasn't for the first time that I've done something like that.
21 Q. Can you tell us what other names you have used and under what
23 A. Never again, but what I'm saying is that it was usual practice of
24 activities of all services. I wasn't really talking about myself.
25 Q. So here you are, a Serbian DB operative, using an alias, holding
1 yourself out as a representative of the Serbs in SBWS in an international
2 negotiation for the Erdut Agreement. Do I have that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you were there to instruct
5 Goran Hadzic and others in what position to take?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why were you there?
8 A. I don't know whether I have enough time, whether you allow me to
9 explain it. I entered the whole story upon a suggestion by
10 Milan Milanovic, aka Mrgud. Since I was interested in the contents of
11 the discussions, not only the ones that I was about to attend but the
12 previous ones as well, Milanovic introduced me like as if I was his
13 associate. So my exclusive task was to take notes about the discussions.
14 I did not speak. I did not take the floor on any occasion during the
16 Q. Just earlier today you said: "I was there under my full name."
17 You were not being truthful when you said you were using your own
18 name; isn't that right?
19 A. I would not agree with you there. I did explain as of which
20 moment it was. This is just a position that you're expressing.
21 Q. Why did you say you were using your full name and your presence
22 couldn't be concealed if you actually used an alias name at international
24 A. Yesterday we were talking about 1991, and during that period I
25 was using my real name. Now, this, this is a police gesture, an
1 operative gesture, something that any service would do. Even from this
2 point in time I cannot see anything wrong with it.
3 Q. You didn't think it would be important to inform the Chamber that
4 you were also acting under an alias name, Milan Lakic, so that they could
5 know that that person was you?
6 A. I only showed how honest I am by giving answers to all of your
7 questions. I did that knowing that you have all information about me.
8 There is nothing to hide. I could have told you, "No, I'm not this Lakic
9 person," but, of course, I don't have a reason to lie.
10 MS. MARCUS: No further questions, Your Honour.
11 I would say -- sorry, that I have a submission to be made in
12 relation to the witness, but it can be made after the witness is done and
13 it doesn't require the witness to be on stand-by.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear from you after we've heard the
15 totality of the witness's testimony.
16 I think, Mr. Bakrac, that's it's your turn now again.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DST-063, you will now be further
19 cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I have about five to ten minutes, only two
11 Page 13765 redacted. Closed session.
25 Q. And my last question, sir: My colleague Ms. Marcus asked you
1 whether you could have turned down a task that was issued to you by your
2 superior. According to the rules of the service, what kind of assignment
3 or order you could have turned down?
4 A. Well, in essence, if that would entail committing a crime; in
5 other words, if my activities would result in a crime.
6 Q. In other words, any other assignment that would not result in a
7 crime, you were duty-bound to carry out?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, those were all the
11 questions I had. And thank you for the time given me.
12 Thank you, witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
14 Mr. Jordash, any further questions for the witness?
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The ADC should provide for basic training in
19 electrical equipment. It looks as if it now functions, Mr. Jordash.
20 MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] Before I begin, may I
21 just address you briefly --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It --
23 Another test, please.
24 MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] Before I begin,
25 briefly --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The problem seems to be there where you are now
2 moving something.
3 MR. JORDASH: [Microphone not activated] I can see a problem.
4 It's because it's so low. If I could just have a moment.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The other microphone did function earlier. Let's
6 try it again.
7 MR. JORDASH: Hello?
8 JUDGE ORIE: It might work, although we get a bit of -- well,
9 we -- I think we can hear you now, but we hear other things as well.
10 You don't even -- does it work for you? No, it doesn't work.
11 We have another lectern which is not as transparent as yours but
12 which might serve you better.
13 Mr. Jordash, don't worry, even if it's the Prosecution lectern,
14 the Prosecution microphone will still hear your words.
15 MR. JORDASH: Hello?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it works.
17 MR. JORDASH: I'm hoping there's no subterfuge, though.
11 Pages 13769-13774 redacted. Closed session.
10 Now, can we turn, please, to 1D05056, which is a full informal
11 translation of these articles.
12 Q. First of all, Mr. Witness, as this is coming up, the Law on
13 Internal Affairs of Serbia, do you know if it applied -- it might sound
14 like an obvious question, but do you know if it applied to Croatia or
15 Eastern Slavonia, where you were working, at the time you were working in
16 1991 onwards?
17 A. I don't believe that it did.
18 Q. And do you know if it applied to Kosovo?
19 A. The Law of the Republic of Serbia? Yes, it did.
20 Q. And we can see there on the screen -- hopefully, I think we need
21 to go to the bottom of the page. And perhaps I can try to refresh your
22 memory of this article. Article 47, which goes on to the next page, but
24 "Due to special working conditions, intensify in nature --"
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, is Defence counsel trying to refresh the
2 witness's memory or educate him? Because the witness said he didn't know
3 anything about this.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: Well, I'm -- yes, I'm asking him to see if it
6 refreshes his memory on the articles.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me then --
8 First of all, do you have any recollection that you ever studied
9 articles of this kind?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I don't
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which could mean, Mr. Jordash, that we are
13 entering in a legal debate with someone who says he has no knowledge
14 about these things. The legal debate might be very interesting, but if
15 we need the witness for that is ... if you would give us any good reason
16 why to go through all this with the witness? Is there any specific
17 matters apart from the analysis and the -- of these articles, but the
18 witness says: I don't think I ever read those articles.
19 Now, so therefore if you want to bring them to our attention I
20 think there would be nothing wrong with that because it may further
21 clarify the decision, but perhaps we could do that by reading it. If you
22 think that the witness, apart from the text of these legal provisions,
23 could provide us with any further information which we, then, could link
24 to these articles, then I think it would be appropriate to ask him such
25 questions --
1 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- rather than to ask him whether he now remembers
3 the text of these articles.
4 MR. JORDASH: Certainly. May I, though, tender this, because the
5 Law on the Ministries has been tendered as an exhibit but only in summary
6 form. These articles have been summarised. So this is the full text of
7 these articles. So if I may tender this as an exhibit. MFI'd, if the
8 Prosecution would like a -- obviously would like a formal translation.
9 MS. MARCUS: Can we hear what the relevance is to this witness's
11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps then the witness should take off his
12 earphones. But the relevance certainly is that these articles, these
13 legal provisions, are apparently at the basis of the decision you have
14 sought to be admitted into evidence --
15 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, the witness has his headphones still on.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's a kind of relevance without any
17 factual basis. If you would have answered the question, I might have,
18 out of an abundance of caution, have asked the witness to take off his
20 But that seems, Ms. Marcus, for a better understanding of what
21 the legal basis of what the decision is, to know the articles might
22 assist. Would you disagree with that?
23 MS. MARCUS: No, Your Honour, I agree. And we accept
24 Mr. Jordash's assertion that this law -- I know there are a lot of laws
25 that have been tendered into evidence. If he says that this hasn't been
1 tendered in its entirety, then we accept that. And if it's the official
2 law, the Official Gazette, then we have no objections.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- perhaps I take the time, since we are
4 lawyers, to briefly read them.
5 Yes, I have read it. Is there any objection against admission?
6 Ms. Marcus, not?
7 MS. MARCUS: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: They are then admitted, from the bar table I would
10 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: This would be D408, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. There's no need to
14 have it under seal.
15 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
17 Q. I want to try to have you explain more clearly, if you could, the
18 issue of expenses and salary.
19 When you went into Croatia, as you told us you did, how did you
20 receive your salary, first of all?
21 A. I received my regular salary.
22 Q. And what about expenses. How did it work? Were you paid
23 expenses, and, if so, in which way? How did it work?
24 A. In 1991, my expenses were not covered.
25 Q. And in 1992?
1 A. I don't know about 1992. But the fact of the matter is that
2 based on the 1995 or 1994 decision, they were covered.
3 Q. Do you know why your expenses were not covered in 1991? Would
4 they ordinarily have been covered if you were working in Serbia?
5 A. Even if I had been working in Serbia, I don't know if it would
6 have been ordinarily covered. I can't remember whether it was an
7 administrative issue or simply conditions were not in place for these
8 expenses to be covered. I don't know what the reason behind it was. It
9 was a very long time, after all. A very long time ago.
10 Q. Did you have any additional expenses, working in Croatia,
11 additional to what you would have had if you were working in Serbia?
12 A. No, not many additional expenses. No.
13 Q. Which additional expenses did you have?
14 A. I did say we did not have some additional expenses, no.
15 Generally speaking, the situation was very difficult in that area. And
16 whatever participation there was, it was mine and not my associates --
17 and not of my associates who were in the area. If you look at the
18 expenses that I incurred overall, you could say that I did spend more
19 money there than I would have had I been at home.
20 Q. The retroactive decision which we looked at in relation to you
21 refers to a situation or a decision which relates to the
22 Autonomous Province of Kosovo. Do you know anything about any decision
23 that was made by the ministry of Serbia in relation to Kosovo at around
24 the time you were in Croatia?
25 MS. MARCUS: Can we know which ministry?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, your question:
2 "Do you know anything about any decision that was made by the
3 ministry in [sic] Serbia in relation to Kosovo at around the time you
4 were in Croatia?"
5 That is a question which I would find difficult to answer, but,
6 of course, I'm not the witness.
7 MR. JORDASH: Let me try to clarify.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Pages 13781-13785 redacted. Closed session.
11 Q. Right. Let's leave that subject there and let's go to the
12 Erdut Agreement and your use of the name Milan Lakic.
13 First of all, was that the first time you'd used the name
14 Milan Lakic during your service?
15 A. Yes. The first and the only time.
16 Q. Had you ever used another name?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Why did you use that name? What was the point of you attending
19 the meetings under that false name?
20 A. I was given that name. It was based on a proposal by
21 Milan Milanovic, Mrgud. Because there were upcoming direct negotiations
22 with the representatives of the Croatian community, he thought it would
23 be useful to bring me along as the secretary of our team. And I accepted
24 the arrangement, and that's how things went.
25 But let me repeat: I do not see anything wrong if I'm using an
1 alias in my operative work.
2 Q. Who were you hiding your identity from and for what purpose?
3 That's the question.
4 A. From the members of the Croatian delegation.
5 Q. And for what purpose?
6 A. So that I could stay within this negotiation team, because I
7 believe that the Croatian side would have known my full name.
8 Q. Why did you want to be or why were you -- why did you consider it
9 operatively useful to be in the team?
10 A. I believe that being able to monitor such a negotiation, well,
11 that would certainly fall under my normal operative duties. And we
12 didn't have any other means of doing so. I got involved. It was based
13 on the proposal - let me repeat - of Milan Milanovic, and I was the only
14 one who was taking minutes and writing down the essence of what was being
15 discussed there, unlike the rest of them.
16 Q. And why did you think that the Croatian delegation would know who
17 you were or know your proper name?
18 A. I cannot confirm how or why, but it was just a way of protecting
19 my identity.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could we nevertheless try to get an
21 answer to your question.
22 What would the Croatian members of the Croatian delegation -- why
23 would they not have accepted you under your own name? What would have
24 happened if your own name would have been used? I mean, all the others
25 used their own names as well, isn't it?
1 A. Because I assume under my full name they would be able to know
2 who I am, who am I working for.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You would appear, then, as the secretary of the
4 delegation, isn't it? Just someone who, as you said, took notes. How
5 could that in any way reveal anything else than performing your function
6 at that time? It's rather unclear to me.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assumed they knew my name, my
8 surname, and that a person with that name and surname is a member of the
9 Serbian State Security. By using a different name and by being
10 introduced as a secretary of the team, it was easy for me to attend.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So the purpose was to hide that among the members of
12 the delegation there was a person who is a member of the Serbian State
13 Security; is that what you say was the purpose of that that should be
15 And then, of course, the next question is: Why should that be
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] My question was: Why
19 should that be hidden?
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, your mike was off.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there may be -- the microphone was not working,
22 so the interpreters might not have heard what I said.
23 The question, then -- the purpose, apparently, was to hide that
24 there was a Serbian DB member in the delegation. Now, why should that be
25 hidden? Why could that not be known to the other delegation?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very simple reason: So that I
2 could stay there and attend the negotiations. Had they found out my true
3 identity, I don't really believe they would accept my presence there.
4 They wouldn't accept me sitting there attending the negotiations. No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Why not?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was just my assessment of the
7 situation. I cannot claim that certainly it would have had such an
8 effect. But that was my thinking at the time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Did it ever come to your mind that the fact that you
10 were -- it should be hidden that the Serbian DB was in any way involved
11 in these negotiations? Is that -- is that what you had on your mind?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was just my position, and
13 I also had this arrangement with this other person.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that does not further clarify the purpose and
15 the aim of all of it. Were the international -- the internationals
16 involved in these negotiations, were they also not aware of your true
17 name and your true function?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They knew about me for at least six
19 months before the negotiations. Mr. Galbraith, Mr. Stoltenberg, they
20 knew me as an associate of Mr. Milanovic. No one ever asked me what my
21 name was.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, but as far as you knew, they were not aware that
23 you were an employee of the Serbian DB Vojvodina SUP and that you were --
24 that you were acting under a name different from your true name?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think they knew for whom I
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Jordash, I am looking at the clock. I'm also interested to
4 know how much more time you would need.
5 MR. JORDASH: 15 minutes would be ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes.
7 Then - and I'm looking, then, at the Prosecution - how much more
9 MS. MARCUS: I would have a few questions to follow-up,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: A few questions. What's a few? I mean, are we
12 talking about five minutes or about 20 minutes?
13 MS. MARCUS: Five minutes, approximately.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take the break --
17 Witness, we would like to see you back in approximately half an
18 hour. Would you please follow the usher at this moment.
19 Mr. Jordash, the Chamber, during the last break, has considered
20 your request not to even start the examination-in-chief of the next
21 witness. That request is denied. The Chamber expects you to start your
23 If it comes to a point where you feel that you could not further
24 proceed on the basis of the reasons you've given, then, of course, we'll
25 consider that, but you're expected to start the next witness after this
2 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I can say now that I won't come to
3 that point because the point, as far as we're concerned, is now. So
4 nothing's going to happen during the examination which changes our
5 position one way or another. The problem remains as we see it, from the
6 beginning. And I will continue until I finish, because it's not going to
7 get any better or worse.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 There is someone who is, I think, is -- it could be me, as a
10 matter of fact as well, but if not, the mobile phone is hereby warned
11 that it is at risk of being seized and then, of course, later returned to
12 the owner.
13 We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to 6.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Can I just, first of all, confess to my
18 phone being the guilty culprit --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JORDASH: -- and apologise to you and to my Case Manager who
21 believed it to be his.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a conditional seizure is hereby pronounced.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Mr. Witness, I just want to move quickly through the last
25 remaining clarifications. Just before I move to the next subject: The
1 Erdut Agreement, are you able to know, or did you know at the time, what
2 the Serbian government's position was in relation to the Erdut Agreement?
3 A. I don't think it would have been signed. It wouldn't have been
4 signed to begin with had Serbia not agreed to it. Well, actually, it
5 would have been signed, but I do believe that the Republic of Serbia and
6 President Milosevic expressed their agreement with the signing of it.
7 Q. Do you know what Matic's view and Babic's view was of the signing
8 of the Erdut Agreement?
9 A. I don't know what their views were, specifically. The general
10 response of the people in the area was that of dissatisfaction.
11 Q. Do you know why, what the basis of that dissatisfaction was?
12 A. Well, the basis was the establishment of the Croatian authority
13 in that area.
14 Q. Thank you. In release to you attending the Kula award ceremony,
15 did you receive an award?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you were asked yesterday, and I want to quote
18 directly --
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 13684.
20 Q. It was put to you the following:
21 "The evidence in this case has been that from April 1991 through
22 to the end of 1991, Serb forces, in particular special units of the
23 Republic of Serbia DB, operating in co-ordination with the JNA, the TO,
24 and paramilitary forces, committed crimes in and attacked and took
25 control of towns and villages in the SAO SBWS.
1 "Now, my question is: If we have understood your evidence
2 correctly, you did not gather any information regarding armed attacks and
3 combat operations involving these Serb forces; is that accurate?
4 "A. Yes, you're right. Your understanding is correct.
5 "Q. Therefore, to the extent the Serbian MUP, DB, was engaged in
6 these operations either directly or through organising, financing,
7 supplying, and directing the involvement of special units in these
8 operations, this information would not have been brought to your
9 attention, and you would, in fact, not have sought out such information.
10 "Is that accurate?
11 "A. Yes, that's accurate."
12 Now, I want to break that down a little. There is evidence in
13 this case that one of the special units of the Serbian DB was
14 Arkan's Men. Would you have been interested in that, operatively
16 A. In general, yes, combat activities, but I had never heard of
17 Arkan's unit having been part of the Serbian DB.
18 Q. What you do you mean, "In general, yes, combat activities"?
19 A. I wasn't interested in combat activities. My comment is that I
20 knew of the existence of these units, but it's the first time that I'm
21 hearing that Arkan's unit was a special unit of the Serbian DB.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that there is a
23 microphone on somewhere.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Now, you would say you would not, as you've told us - and I'm not
1 going to dwell on that, I think you've made your position clear - you
2 wouldn't have been interested in combat activities. Would you have been
3 aware if the DB, the Serbian DB, had been providing supplies to
4 Arkan's Men in 1991 in Erdut or Dalj?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Would you expect the military security to have been aware of such
8 A. Yes, that is to be expected.
9 Q. Do you know how large the Novi Sad Corps was, approximately, in
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you know how active the military security was in the region
13 that Arkan was operating in in 1991, in Eastern Slavonia?
14 A. I don't know specifically how active they were, but I'm sure that
15 security was just part of their regular duties, dealing with the required
16 assessments and logistics. So I suppose that they knew.
17 Q. Sorry, they knew what?
18 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Jordash, you asked, Do you know something?
19 And then the witness now is explaining that he supposes something to
20 know. And then you asked --
21 MR. JORDASH: My fault.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Now, there's been evidence in this case that the Serbian DB had a
25 training base in Petrova Gora in 1991. Would you have been operatively
1 interested in such a training base?
2 A. No, I would not have been interested. Besides, I don't know the
3 location of Petrova Gora.
4 Q. Sorry. I misspoke. There's been evidence in this case that the
5 Serbian DB had a training base in Pajzos in 1991. Were you aware of a
6 training base in Pajzos in 1991 run by Serbian DB?
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's a composite question. Could we split it up.
8 First whether the witness is aware of a training base, and then,
9 depending on his answer ...
10 Were you aware of a training base in Pajzos in 1991?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. Would you have expected the military security to be interested in
15 a training base in Pajzos in 1991, recruiting and training men for combat
17 A. I suppose, yes.
18 Q. Have you ever read a military security report which details a
19 training base in Pajzos, run by the DB, in 1991?
20 A. Not at the time, no. Absolutely not.
21 Q. Any time since then?
22 A. Yes, upon my arrival here in The Hague.
23 Q. There's been evidence in this case that the DB was -- let me
24 break that down.
25 There's been evidence in this case that there was a training base
1 in Ilok in 1991 recruiting and training men for combat action. Did you
2 observe anything to suggest that's the case -- that was the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Would you have been operatively interested in that?
5 A. The training of military units is not something that I would have
6 been operatively interested in.
7 Q. So we can shortcut things: Would you expect the military
8 security to have been interested in that and made reports accordingly?
9 A. Absolutely, yes.
10 Q. Thank you. There's been evidence in this case that the DB in
11 1992 formed a combat squadron and had thousands of combat reconnaissance,
12 transport, and humanitarian flights. Did you hear of that in 1992?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Let me just return briefly to training camps. There's been
15 evidence in this case that there was a training camp in Vukovar training,
16 recruiting men for combat. Did you hear about that training camp?
17 A. No.
18 Q. There has been evidence in the case that the Red Berets was one
19 of the special units of the Serbian DB, and I think the suggestion is
20 that it was involved in combat operations in Eastern Slavonia. Would you
21 have been operatively interested in that special unit being involved in
22 combat operations with the Novi Sad Corps or the TO of the SBWS?
23 A. Since they were combat activities, I would not have been
24 interested in them.
25 Q. Would you have expected the military security of the
1 Novi Sad Corps to have been interested in the Red Berets engaged in
2 combat with the Novi Sad Corps and the TO of the SBWS?
3 A. Yes. That would surely be part of their regular duties.
4 Q. Did anyone bring to your attention at the time in 1991 that the
5 Red Berets were engaged in combat with the Novi Sad Corps or the TO of
7 A. No.
8 Q. There's been evidence in this case that Arkan carried a DB ID
9 card, identification card, with him. Did you ever hear that at the time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. There's a suggestion in the case that there was training bases
12 run by the Serbian DB, and Arkan's Men attended those training bases.
13 Did you ever hear that or would you have been operatively interested in
15 A. No.
16 Q. And, finally: There's a suggestion in this case that since 1991,
17 since April 1991, the DB was involved in supplying and transporting
18 weapons from the JNA barracks of Boban Potok to the TO in Borovo Selo.
19 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'm just wondering how all of this
20 arises out of the cross-examination.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH: Well, it arises because of the global proposition
23 the Prosecution put to the witness, and I'm clarifying whether, in fact,
24 the specifics that can be dealt with --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Was this your last one?
1 MR. JORDASH: This is the last one.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please proceed.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. Mr. Witness, there's a suggestion in this case that since
5 April of 1991 the DB was involved in supplying and transporting weapons
6 from the JNA barracks of Boban Potok to the TO in Borovo Selo, the
7 transport being overseen by members of the DB. Would you have been
8 operatively interested in that?
9 A. No. But I don't see why the DB should be involved in that, since
10 the weapons belonged to the JNA.
11 Q. I've got nothing further. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
14 Ms. Marcus, a few questions.
15 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Further Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:
17 Q. Did you have a passport or an ID card with the name Milan Lakic
18 on it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, for six months prior to October 1995 you were holding
21 yourself out as an associate of Milan Milanovic to international
22 mediators; is that right?
23 A. That was how Milan Milanovic introduced me.
24 Q. Had they asked you your name, what would you have said?
25 A. I would have told them my real name, full name.
1 Q. Now, yesterday, at transcript page 13621 to -22, you were asked
2 if you had anything to do with the negotiations for the Erdut Agreement.
3 You said:
4 "Yes, I took part in negotiations as a member of the team."
5 You were asked:
6 "And how did that come about, that you ended up taking part in
7 the negotiations?"
8 You responded:
9 "Already in 1994 I directed all my activities at work at
10 collecting intelligence in that area. I insisted, given that I knew a
11 lot of people there, local people and officials, that I be allowed to
12 occasionally take part in those talks as well."
13 A bit further down, you were asked:
14 "Who instructed you to take part, if anyone?"
15 And your answer was:
16 "It was my own initiative and my own proposal, and my chief,
17 Milovan Popivoda, fully agreed to this."
18 And you were asked:
19 "Precisely what role did you play? Precisely, please."
20 And your answer was:
21 "I did not have a precisely defined role in any form, initially,
22 apart from being, A, one who would co-operate with and be host to our
23 foreign guests."
24 Now, just before, you said, when you were asked, Why did you
25 consider it operatively useful to be in the team, you said:
1 "I believe that being able to monitor such negotiations, well,
2 that would certainly fall under my normal operative duties. And we
3 didn't have any other means of doing so. I got involved. It was based
4 on the proposal - let me repeat - of Milan Milanovic, and I was the only
5 one who was taking minutes and writing down the essence of what was being
6 discussed there, unlike the rest of them."
7 So, now, my questions on this are: Was it you who suggested you
8 take part in the negotiations or Mrgud?
9 A. As for the Croatian delegation, this was already toward the end
10 of the negotiations, I took part in that at the proposal of
11 Milan Milovanovic -- Milanovic. All the earlier discussions, of varying
12 importance, I attended of my own accord because I wanted to know the
13 issues discussed. Mr. Milanovic was unable to convey them to me in
14 accurate terms, so I suggested that I sit there with him during these
15 meetings in order to make notes.
16 Q. Your words were "I insisted on being present." So what do you
17 mean? It seems a contradiction to me.
18 A. It doesn't sound contradictory. It's a strong word, to insist.
19 There was nothing I could insist on with Mr. Milanovic. I was not able
20 to work on him in any way. I asked him if it would pose any sort of
21 difficulty with him if I attended these meetings, and he agreed. There
22 was nothing that I could insist on with him.
23 Q. So at the negotiations, you held yourself out to be secretary; is
24 that right?
25 A. Mr. Milanovic introduced me in this way. He was the one who made
1 up the team and was its chief.
2 Q. So why did you say yesterday that you -- your role was to
3 co-operate with and be host to our foreign guests?
4 A. I didn't say that. It must have been poor interpretation. I
5 most certainly didn't say that, that I should co-operate with and be host
6 to. I don't see how I would have played host under those circumstances.
7 Q. Who did Ilija Kojic hold himself out to be at the negotiations?
8 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. JORDASH: I do wonder where we are going with this. I mean,
11 I thought the issue was one of credibility and I thought that the
12 Prosecution's cross-examination had finished. I mean, I didn't object
13 because Your Honours seemed content with the Prosecution cross-examining.
14 But there has to be, in our submission, a limit to -- we're now moving
15 into a new subject.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Until now, Ms. Marcus, the role of this witness and
17 his direct relation to Mr. Milanovic was the subject. Apparently we are
18 now entering a new area. Is that apart from the few questions and the
19 five minutes?
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have one last question after this
21 question, and that would be it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I will be as practical as I was before.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Who did Ilija Kojic hold himself out to be?
1 A. As far as I know, he was there under his full name. He was a
2 policeman in the Republic of Croatia. I don't see any other possibility.
3 He was there as Ilija Kojic, I presume.
4 Q. Well, if Ilija Kojic was working for the Serbian DB, as he has
5 said he was, why did you need two Serbian DB operatives to attend this
7 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's a very leading question? That's ...
24 MS. MARCUS: I'm going to rephrase my question.
25 Q. Ilija Kojic had said at one point that he worked for the Serbian
1 DB. Why would you need two Serbian DB operatives to attend that
2 international negotiation?
3 A. I hear it only here from you that Ilija Kojic was at the time
4 working for the Serbian DB.
5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have no further questions. I wanted
6 to just put on the record that the law that Mr. Jordash tendered into
7 evidence before, the transcript didn't record the exhibit number, so I'm
8 sorry for this.
9 The 65 ter number was 1D05056. That law is already admitted into
10 evidence as P1044. But Mr. Jordash is right that the laws that he was
11 referring to, the articles in that law, were only with a summary
12 translation in e-court. So what I would recommend is that whichever
13 exhibit that was admitted as, that that vacated, and that if Mr. Jordash
14 has a full English translation, that - with the Chamber's leave - that
15 that be uploaded and attached to P1044. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, is that a useful suggestion?
17 MR. JORDASH: Yes, thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would also recommend that the articles you --
19 for which you provided now a translation, the original, apparently, is
20 not in every respect legible, because in the translation we find several
21 times "illegible." Now, many people say that laws are usually illegible,
22 but that is on a different level, I would say. So if you could try to
23 incorporate this but then, perhaps, after we've reviewed the original
24 text and taken out the illegible parts of the ... then, if you would then
25 upload that, incorporate it in P1044, and that it would then be replaced.
1 Which also means that there's no problem any more in not knowing the --
2 an exhibit number, because whatever exhibit number was signed to it --
3 Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It was D408, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And that is then vacated, expecting it to be
6 incorporated in P1044.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 Witness DST-063, I have two questions for you. First, Arkan's
9 training camp, did you ever discuss that subject with the Defence? And
10 could you provide us with any information about Arkan's training camp.
11 A. Yes, I did, but my answer was the same as I've been giving here.
12 I was not paying attention to such activities, if any. And that was my
13 response to them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that talking about Arkan's
15 training camp, you were not even aware, if it exists, where it would have
16 been located?
17 A. That's correct, what you just said.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever hear about it at the time, that is, in
19 the early 1990s?
20 A. I did hear about it. It was covered in the media.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the media, anywhere else you did hear
22 about it?
23 A. No, except for the fact that within the army and the
24 Territorial Defence a unit of Arkan's was also somehow active, but I
25 didn't even know the name of the unit at the time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about training camps. This answer is
2 about a unit. Did you hear anywhere else about a training camp related
3 to Arkan?
4 A. Yes, but that was in the period 1993, 1994, not in 1991.
5 Q. And that was a training camp located where?
6 A. I don't know the exact location, but somewhere between Dalj and
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Then a totally different subject. You said you were introduced
10 by Mr. Milanovic as the secretary. Did he also introduce you by the name
11 which is not your own name?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And you said if someone would have asked about your
14 name, you would have given your real name.
15 A. That was before the start of the negotiations with the Croatian
16 delegation, significantly before the negotiations. At that time, I would
17 have told them my true name.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But during the negotiations and during the
19 preparations, if someone would have asked you what your name was, you
20 would not have given your own full name?
21 A. At the beginning of my attendance there at the meetings, had
22 anyone asked me I would have given my true name and I would stick by it
23 until the end. But since no one ever asked me about my name, I seized
24 the opportunity and I accepted this proposal or suggestion made by
25 Milanovic and went by this other name.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I'm just trying to imagine a situation where
2 someone would have said, "Well, I didn't hear your name. Well, what's
3 your name?" And you would have given your own name. Then all the
4 reasons why you were acting under this pseudonym or alias would just not
5 be valid any more, Mr. Milanovic becoming someone who lies about the
6 names of the members of his delegation? I'm really -- to say the least,
7 I'm puzzled by your answer, that you would have given, under those
8 circumstances, where you were introduced by Mr. Milanovic under a
9 different name, that if someone would have asked again about your name,
10 and that despite all the reasons you explained to us why it was important
11 not to use your own name, and then you tell us, "Well, if someone would
12 have asked, of course I would have given --" well, you didn't say "of
13 course," but "I would have given my own name."
14 That is an answer that at least puzzles me. Could you please
15 think about it, and whether you really would have given your own name if
16 someone would have asked you about your name.
17 A. I can. And my first steps when this type of work is concerned
18 were related to contacts between Mr. Milanovic and representatives of
19 various missions and organisations that were present in the area. At
20 later stages, that started to involve foreign diplomats and other such
21 delegations. Throughout that period, I was not involved in any
22 discussions. I was only present there to take notes. And no one up
23 until --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. My question is: Once you were
25 introduced to either the internationals or the Croatian delegation under
1 a name which isn't your name, acting as a secretary, if someone would
2 have asked you "What, again, is your name?", you would have given your
3 own full name? That is my question. And not on how it developed,
4 but ...
5 A. I obviously did not understand your question. I apologise. Once
6 I have taken the name of Milan Lakic, I would have stuck by that name
7 until the end.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Even if someone would have asked you, then you would
9 have given that name.
10 Thank you for that answer. I have no further questions for you.
11 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any questions for ...
12 If not, this then concludes, Witness DST-063, your testimony. I
13 would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague. I hope that
14 you recovered well. I thank you for answering the questions that were
15 put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return
16 home again. You may follow the usher.
11 Pages 13808-13810 redacted. Closed session.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness DST-040. Can you hear me in
22 a language you understand?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of
25 Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration. The
1 text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that solemn
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: DST-040
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
8 Witness DST-040, at this moment we are in closed session, which
9 means that the outside world does not hear your evidence and that they
10 cannot see you. This is on the basis of a request made by the Serbian
12 Now, we have provisionally decided that you will testify in
13 closed session. We are seeking further information about the reasons,
14 whether they really justify your testimony to be heard in closed session,
15 which means that at any point in time in the future it may well be that
16 this Chamber decides that your testimony will be public. We are
17 communicating with the Serbian government about these matters.
18 Further, I would like to inform you that we've only ten minutes
19 left today, but we nevertheless wanted to start to hear your evidence.
20 We'll continue tomorrow, and then you're allowed to return to your own
21 place because we are not sitting for a couple of weeks, then, and we'll
22 inform you when we'd like to see you back after this couple of weeks'
24 You'll now first be examined by Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is
25 counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
1 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
2 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Examination by Mr. Jordash
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 MR. JORDASH: Now, please, could we have on the screen 1D05042.
7 Q. You'll see in front of you in a moment a sheet -- oh, sorry, a
8 document with personal details. Would you look at it, please, and
9 confirm whether they are accurate.
10 A. Yes, they are.
11 MR. JORDASH: May I tender that as an exhibit, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This would be D408, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D408 is admitted into evidence under seal.
15 Please proceed.
11 Pages 13814-13817 redacted. Closed session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow, Friday,
9 the 2nd of September, at 9.00 in this same courtroom, II. But to the
10 extent the public would wish to follow the proceedings, we'll immediately
11 turn into closed session again.
12 We stand adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day
15 of September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.