1 Friday, 2 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
9 and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I was informed that the Stanisic Defence wanted to address the
13 MR. JORDASH: Very briefly, if I may, just on the issue of
14 Mr. Stanisic being brought to court.
15 Yesterday he was picked at 1.00 p.m. from the detention centre
16 and arrived at the court at approximately 1.15, which meant he has to sit
17 and wait for one hour. And then he was brought back to the detention
18 centre and arrived at 8.00 p.m.
19 I would just respectfully ask that Your Honours might intervene
20 at some stage if it becomes necessary. Mr. Stanisic is, as Your Honours
21 knows, under full therapy, including antibiotics, morphine, and also, at
22 present, a therapy dealing with his thrombosis issues. And being brought
23 to court an hour earlier puts an extra strain on his ability to be able
24 to focus on the proceedings, and I'd ask that his health issues are given
25 some consideration when it comes to his transport to the court.
1 I think he was --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I think you would like us to do is to
3 intervene and to take care that the transportation time is as little as
4 possible, and the waiting time.
5 That's understood.
6 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll get in touch with the Registrar. You may be
8 aware that it most likely is a matter of co-ordination also with the
9 Dutch authorities. First of all, it's now on the record. But the
10 Chamber will further monitor what is done, and we'll liaise with the
12 Any other matter?
13 MR. JORDASH: No. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into closed session.
15 And could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
16 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in closed session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness DST-040. Please be seated.
22 I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
23 declaration you've given yesterday. And Mr. Jordash will now continue
24 his examination-in-chief.
25 Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 WITNESS: DST-040 [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
6 A. Good morning.
7 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 1D05046.
8 Q. Would you have a look at the map on the screen, Mr. Witness, and
9 confirm that these are some of the main areas which your testimony will
10 cover, or does cover.
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: May I tendered this as an exhibit, please.
13 MS. MARCUS: No objection.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: This would be D422, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D422 is admitted into evidence.
17 No need to have it under seal, I take it, Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH: No, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, the evidence we've just gone through, your
22 statement, chart of exhibits, the proofing note, and the map, are now
23 evidence before the Court, so we don't need to repeat what's contained
24 within. I'll now take you through some of your evidence to clarify and
25 to elaborate.
1 You follow me?
2 A. Yes.
11 Pages 13823-13826 redacted. Closed session.
7 Q. Thank you. A witness in this case, Mr. DST-040, described you as
8 the deputy of the Ilok Police Station in 1991.
9 MS. MARCUS: Sorry, isn't this DST-040?
10 MR. JORDASH: Yes, this --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think yes, that --
12 MR. JORDASH: That's what --
13 JUDGE ORIE: It wasn't --
14 MS. MARCUS: I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You were addressing Witness DST-040 and told him
16 that a witness in this case described him as the deputy of the
17 Ilok Police Station.
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, it wasn't very clear.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JORDASH: Let me try that again.
21 Q. DST-040, which is you, as you know, a witness in this case
22 described you as the deputy of the Ilok Police Station in the fall of
23 1991. Was that -- is that correct?
24 A. Formally and legally, I was never appointed the -- to the post of
25 the deputy commander of the Ilok Police Station, although, internally,
1 people would refer to me as one.
2 Q. And why was that? What was it about your function which gave
3 rise to that perception?
4 A. This all occurred in late 1991. The Serbian army formed its
5 command headquarters within Ilok, and the town of Ilok was under military
7 Some of the forces, I believe it was upon orders by the deputy
8 minister or the chief of the Department of Public Security,
9 Mr. Stojkovic, some of the police forces of Serbia were sent to Ilok to
10 establish a police station there. These were professionals who had fled
11 from different regions of Republic of Croatia. Since I was at the very
12 border of Republic of Croatia where the station of Ilok was located and
13 had my check-points and patrols there, the staff assigned me with
14 assisting the work of the Ilok Police Station, and my assistance there
15 was of an advisory nature.
16 Q. And --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request: Could extra microphones
18 be turned off, please.
19 MR. JORDASH:
20 Q. And who were you advising, and in which kind of circumstances?
21 Let's try and break it down.
22 How often, if at all, would you go to Ilok?
23 A. Well, in that period, quite often.
24 Q. Who was the commander of the station?
25 A. The commander of Ilok station was Dusan Knezevic.
1 Q. And how well or badly organised was the Ilok station under
3 A. In my view, very well.
4 Q. Why did you arrive at that view?
5 A. He got the police station to operate in the way they normally
6 operate in Serbia, and I believe also in Croatia at the time, very
7 quickly, with the basic task of law enforcement and crime prevention.
8 Q. What kind of advice were you giving?
9 A. Well, I was there to help out, to provide a link between my
10 police station, primarily my sector on the side where I was, and the
11 police station in Backa Palanka with which Ilok was co-operating, and
12 that co-operation had been good and close even earlier because only a
13 river divided these two towns. They had the same security situation. So
14 that communication was necessary; it was established. The communication
15 system was to be set up, along with the records that every police station
16 is supposed to keep.
17 Q. From when do -- from when to when do you think you were entering
18 Ilok and engaged in this kind of work, in relation to the
19 Ilok Police Station?
20 A. From end 1991, more precisely, November or December, I can't
21 remember exactly, until mid-1992, when, following a decision of the
22 staff, I was transferred to Hrtkovci.
23 Q. Did you move around Ilok, or did you simply attend the police
24 station during this period?
25 A. I moved around.
1 Q. Did you observe any training base in Ilok during that period?
2 A. In Ilok? No. Ilok was under military administration, under
3 military rule, and the military had all the powers.
4 Q. What's the significance of that, if at all, that the military had
5 the rule and they had all the powers? What's the significance in
6 relation to my question as to whether there was a training base?
7 A. Well, the military command co-ordinated the work of both the
8 police and the army and the businesses, the economy in Ilok. And all the
9 activities were subordinated to the command.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just try to get things on the right track.
11 What Mr. Jordash is asking you is that, even if that's true what
12 you tell us, what does that mean in terms of being able to see a training
13 centre, a training base?
14 I mean, and I think that that's Mr. Jordash's problem, that even
15 if there's military rule in that area, that does not prevent a training
16 base to be there. So, therefore, the answer is difficult to understand.
17 The answer is a very factual -- the question is a very factual
18 one: Did you see any training base, irrespective of who was commanding
19 the area?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in Ilok.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear of any training base in Ilok?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "not in Ilok," where, then, you have seen
24 a training base at that point in time?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I did not see a
1 training base in Ilok or around Ilok.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. Do you know if the military were conducting any training in the
5 Eastern Slavonian region or in the wider region?
6 A. In the wider region ...
7 I did not understand. The wider region of what?
8 Q. Well, let's stick with Eastern Slavonia. Do you know if the
9 military were conducting any training at that time, late 1991/early 1992,
10 in Eastern Slavonia. If you don't know, it's fine to say you don't know.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Do you know if there was any training being conducted within
13 Serbia by the military, by the JNA at that time?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Did you meet anyone by the name Bozovic at the time you were
16 working, entering into Ilok?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In which circumstances?
19 A. I met him in Ilok. I saw him perhaps two or three times.
20 Q. Do you know if he was engaged in any work in Ilok or the
21 surrounding areas?
22 A. He was not engaged in Ilok, not on the Ilok police force.
23 Q. Do you know if he was engaged anywhere else?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Did you have occasion to go to or observe anything happening at
2 A. In 1992, I was at Pajzos perhaps two or three times. It was,
3 generally speaking, an area where we didn't go. And when I say "we," I
4 mean us from the police station.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, would you allow me to go back to the
6 previous line of questioning.
7 You said you met Mr. Bozovic two or three times. Was this a
8 professional meeting or an occasional private meeting?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met around town, but not
11 JUDGE ORIE: So is this to say that it was just for a cup of
12 coffee or just meeting each other on the street by incident?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We met in passing. I can't be sure
14 whether we met once at the police station, whether he ever came to the
15 police station. In Ilok.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you know what his -- how did you know him?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I was told by the commander
18 of the police station who he was.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And what did the commander tell you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe, if I can remember well
21 now, that he was then at Pajzos. He was based at Pajzos.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Doing what?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "Pajzos"? Just a location? Was
25 he a farmer there? Was he ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. When I saw him, he
2 was in uniform. And Pajzos is a location where there was a building, a
3 villa, and a couple of auxiliary buildings that were used to store
4 agricultural machinery. And there was a winery as well.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what's the link between uniforms and
6 agriculture and machinery? I mean, was there anything else, apart from
7 the winery and the storage of agricultural machinery?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were reports at the
9 time, at the time, that there was some sort of communications centre or a
10 relay centre up there. And it sounded believable, because that location
11 is actually on a higher ground. It dominates over the surrounding area.
12 I think he was associated to that communications centre, but I
13 didn't go up there. I've never seen it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I take you back to one of the previous
15 questions by Mr. Jordash.
16 You answered one of his question that he was not engaged in Ilok,
17 not on the Ilok police force.
18 Then the question was: Do you know if he was engaged anywhere
20 Your answer was: "I don't know."
21 The answer should have been: I was informed that he was linked to
22 the Pajzos location where, as I learned, there was a communications
23 centre, and he was wearing a uniform.
24 Witness DST-040, to tell us about the winery and the agricultural
25 machinery, where it should be perfectly clear to you that we're not
1 primarily interested in wine-making but, rather, in performing functions
2 on different matters, would you please answer the questions right away,
3 focussing on what is perfectly clear to you, the focus of this Tribunal,
4 and that is: Military and/or police activity.
5 Is it clear to you that you were not giving the details of what
6 you knew about the person you were asked about?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I met Bozovic and met
8 him around in Ilok.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm talking about the question put to you
10 by Mr. Jordash, what you would know about his engagement. And I'm also
11 asking -- I'm also referring to my question to you, what Pajzos was.
12 If you know that it's -- at least that you were told that it's a
13 communications centre, which sounded logical to you, because it was at a
14 higher elevation, then I'm not primarily, although you may add that,
15 interested in wine-making and agricultural machinery.
16 Is that clear to you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please behave in accordance with what
19 I just brought to your attention.
20 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
21 MR. JORDASH:
22 Q. What kind of uniform was Bozovic wearing?
23 A. Camouflage uniform. I think it was some kind of NATO uniform.
24 Something like that.
25 Q. Did you hear or observe any kind of training base at Pajzos at
1 that time?
2 A. I never noticed any.
3 Q. Let's go to paragraph 14.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, again, the -- perhaps it's my
5 understanding of the English language. "I never noticed." That seems to
6 refer to what the witness observed. Your question was, rather, whether
7 he heard or observed.
8 Did you ever hear about a training centre in Pajzos, even if you
9 did not have personally observed it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never heard there was any
11 kind of training base.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 Pages 13836-13837 redacted. Closed session.
5 MR. JORDASH: Could we have 1D02630, please, on the screen.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This is D415, MFI, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. Have you seen this before, Mr. Witness; and do you recognise the
10 facts that are stated within?
11 A. I've not seen the document, but I recognise the facts contained
13 Q. Did you at any stage attend the training at Tara, whether to be
14 trained or as a trainer, or in any other capacity?
15 A. No.
16 Q. In relation to the mention there of assigning officers as
17 instructors --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have to apologise. It's me now. My mobile can be
19 seized by anyone who has an interest in doing it.
20 MR. JORDASH: Or who dare.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll switch it off.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. So, Mr. Witness, in relation to the mention in the document of
24 assigning officers as instructors who preferably meet the following
25 conditions that:
1 "They are assigned to the PJM, exceptionally assigned officers
2 outside of the PJM, that they are finished Military Academy or are
3 reserve officers, young, psychologically stable, able to demonstrate
4 specific acts and actions, and train others in the acquired knowledge and
6 Do you know anything about that instruction?
7 A. I know because in 1993 I was the deputy detachment commander
8 based in Novi Sad. And I can see that this dispatch was sent to all SUPs
9 in the territory of the Republic of Serbia, as well as to the Pristina
11 I can also see that they were supposed to designate officers from
12 their institutions that would be sent for training at Tara. And I can
13 see that the then-MUP staff was based in Bajina Basta. As officers, we
14 acted on such dispatches, and we sent officers to the collection point
15 defined in such dispatches.
16 Q. Where was the collection point?
17 A. The collection point was Tara. You can read that in the
19 Q. And how were the trainers, the instructors, selected? Who were
21 A. The trainers belonged to the PJM detachments. Each detachment
22 selected detachment commanders, platoon commanders, instructors among
23 those who were fit, who had mostly graduated from military academies.
24 That was one way of educating highly trained police officers. They also
25 selected them from the ranks of reserve forces, which meant that they
1 possessed knowledge and skills required to carry out military and police
3 Q. At that time at Tara, early 1993, was there anybody outside of
4 the public security conducting the training of the PJM?
5 A. I don't know. I wasn't there at the time.
6 Q. Who was running, or who was the overall commander of the training
7 at Tara at that time?
8 A. I don't know who the commander was, but Obrad Stevanovic was the
9 PJM commander. I don't know whether he appointed somebody else besides
10 himself. I don't know.
11 Q. And Obrad Stevanovic reported to Stojicic; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know who Stojicic reported to?
14 A. Well, it was only logical that he would report to the Ministry of
15 the Interior, to -- because he was his subordinate.
16 Q. Now, there's been evidence in this case, Mr. Witness, that the
17 Serbian DB were conducting or running training bases in a number of
18 places around 1991, 1992, and through to 1995. But sticking with 1991,
19 1992, and 1993, did anyone suggest to you, or did you hear any
20 suggestion, that the PJM should be sent to any DB training base at that
21 time they were being sent to the Tara for training?
22 A. PJM detachments were deployed and they took turns along the
23 entire length of the border on the Drina. And they were deployed at
24 several locations. I don't know if they were trained and how
1 Q. I think you've maybe misunderstood my question.
2 Did you ever hear a suggestion, or was a suggestion made to you,
3 in 1993 that instead of sending PJM to Tara for training, they should be
4 sent to any DB training base.
5 A. No. We implemented what we received in the dispatches.
6 Q. What kind of training did they receive at Tara; and what was the
7 primary purpose of the training? What was it supposed to achieve?
8 A. I believe that the plan for training was prescribed and issued by
9 the PJM commander. That training plan was submitted to all
10 PJM detachments in the territory of Serbia.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly asks that all computers
12 that are not in use please be switched off.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] PJM detachments then elaborated
14 those training plans, and the training plan contained both training in
15 shooting and arms, physical training, orientation in -- and moving in
16 space, setting up ambushes, training aimed at curbing public disorder,
17 and how to act in situations when there are major disturbances of public
18 peace and order. Training in securing public buildings and public areas.
19 And that was all part of PJM activities.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Had the Serbian police or the Vojvodina police received this kind
22 of training before; or was this something completely new?
23 A. Most of that training had existed beforehand, but things were
24 changed due to the newly arisen security situation. Therefore, there
25 were more activities with regard to the protection of the state border.
1 Q. And after the PJM had been trained, are you able to explain, very
2 briefly, where the detachments were deployed?
3 A. They returned to their base units.
4 Q. And where were their base units then deployed? How were these
5 new skills utilized?
6 A. The newly acquired skills were utilized in activities which those
7 professionals applied in their police stations, and they were immediately
8 involved in regular policing duties.
9 Q. Sorry, perhaps I should have been more specific.
10 Which locations are we referencing here? Which locations were
11 these police stations in?
12 A. We're talking about their base units. In other words, police
13 stations were distributed across the territories of the detachments. To
14 be more specific, the detachment in Novi Sad was composed of men from the
15 police stations from all over the territory of the province of Vojvodina,
16 Subotica, Sombor, Novi Sad, Mitrovica, and Pancevo.
17 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour would, it be possible to take a break?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's time for a break. We'll take the break,
19 and we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
23 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Pages 13843-13865 redacted. Closed session.
7 Q. Could we just quickly have on the screen, before I return to this
8 document on the screen, P442.
9 Do you recognise this document?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 MR. JORDASH: Could we just go to the bottom of the English,
13 Actually, I think I'd like a different document.
14 May we take the break at this point and I'll find that document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take the break at this point and resume --
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- at 12.30.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, before you continue: A meeting will
21 take place next week between the Registry and the Dutch authorities.
22 That was planned already. The medical condition of Mr. Stanisic, most
23 likely supported by a brief report by Dr. Falke, will be put on the
24 agenda and will be discussed during that meeting.
25 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 Q. Before the break, we were going to look at this decision, and I
3 do want to look at this decision. It's signed and accepted that it's
4 signed by Stanisic.
5 Now, we've heard how the procedure occurred in practice, and I
6 want to just ask you, since we're on this subject, how it actually
7 happened, if you can recall, in relation to this man.
8 Do you recall this man? You've indicated in your statement at
9 paragraph 43 he was a member of the JATD. Do you recall how his
10 employment occurred and what involvement, if any, Mr. Stanisic had, other
11 than signing the document?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is that for technical --
15 MR. JORDASH: The microphone is off.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The microphone is off. Then ...
17 Yes, could you please re-start your answer.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember the name. I believe
19 that he had arrived from Pancevo. He had the recommendation of the
20 Pancevo centre's chief, and he was admitted as a candidate, first in the
21 ranks of the reserves, and then in the ranks of the active force. Later
22 on, I believe that he was a member of the JSO. He had undergone
23 training. I believe that for a while he worked with a group of people on
24 the escort detail. I believe that for a while he was one of the
25 Mr. Jovica Stanisic's escorts.
1 The chief of service didn't know anything about the procedure by
2 way of which the candidate was admitted. He only put his signature on
3 the document, which was a standard procedure. He put his signature on
4 all such documents.
11 Pages 13869-13890 redacted. Closed session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness DST-040, have you followed -- no, could you
25 please ...
1 You have not followed the discussions, but there some material
2 which the Defence might want to put to you in the continuation of your
3 examination. That is still very uncertain.
4 If you will receive a specific request, perhaps with a few
5 questions or at least a package of material, with the invitation to
6 review that material, then, you may do so. And if the request is just
7 whether you were to review it, please do so without discussing it with
8 anyone. If any party would like to communicate with you, the Chamber
9 will then, through the channel of VWS, send you a message about what you
10 are supposed to do. And if there's any request for writing down any
11 comments as you deem fit and then return that to the address from where
12 the -- from where you received the request, you are allowed to do that.
13 You are, however, not allowed to discuss with anyone else or to
14 communicate with anyone else about your testimony.
15 Is that clear? If you are in any doubt as to what you're allowed
16 to do or what you're not allowed to do, please put any question in that
17 respect through the Victims and Witness Section so that the Chamber will
18 respond to such a question.
19 Is there anything the parties would like to add to what I just
20 said to the witness?
21 I see that there's no such request.
22 Then would you please follow the usher. And we'd like to see you
23 back in a little bit over one month.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 We are about to adjourn. Since we are now in open session, I'd
5 like to clearly state on behalf of the Chamber that we're trying to do
6 our utmost best to see whether the public character of this trial can be
7 better served, and we're working on it so that we may hear more of the
8 evidence in open session rather than in closed session.
9 We adjourn. And we'll resume on the 4th of October, a Tuesday,
10 at quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom, II.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day
13 of October, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.