1 Wednesday, 19 October 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and
10 Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Before we move into closed session and continue to hear the
13 testimony of the present witness, I'd like to briefly raise the apparent
14 discussion. The Chamber is not interested in the content of it, but,
15 rather, in the suggested outcome, that is, that because the Prosecution
16 is seeking additional information about Witness DST-036, which, then, if
17 I understand the discussion well, the Defence is unable at this moment to
18 give, and then as a solution proposes to delay the calling of that
20 Or have I misunderstood you, Mr. Jordash?
21 MR. JORDASH: No, that's -- that was my brief application to
22 Your Honours this afternoon.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And what to substitute that witness?
24 MR. JORDASH: Well, we don't have a substitute. If I can just
25 detail what happened and why we have arrived at this place. And I should
1 caveat this by saying, we can bring the witness and we will bring the
2 witness, clearly, if Your Honours take the view that we should, but it
3 was a suggestion which we hoped might find favour for these reasons.
4 First of all, we'd hoped to bring DST-060, as Your Honours were
5 aware. That person is a high-ranking member of the MUP of Serbia whose
6 diary is tricky, to say the least, and whose availability even to speak
7 to him on the phone is extremely difficult. And so we'd hoped he was
8 coming, in the end it didn't happen, and there was nothing we could do
9 but to keep chasing that witness, but to no avail, sadly. To the point
10 where I was very much of the mind that we should proceed with something
11 more -- an order for a subpoena but in the end we decided against that.
12 In relation to DST-036 whom we hoped would step into the gap, we
13 can be ready but it would be a huge rush and we accept that the
14 Prosecution would be disadvantaged in notice. We haven't agreed with
15 them on many occasions but in relation to this witness we would agree
16 with them. And what we would propose instead is that we would not have a
17 witness next week. We understand the consequences and we would -- we
18 apologise and we regret that, but it would give us the opportunity to
19 prepare a 92 ter statement, and in the end provide a good deal of notice
20 to the Prosecution. And in the final analysis we would lose only perhaps
21 a day because the time that we would have spent leading the witness
22 viva voce next week would be hugely abbreviated by the presentation of a
23 statement in almost lieu of that viva voce testimony. So in the end, it
24 would be our submission that that would lose some time but not that much
25 and in the end be -- the process will be better for it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The loss of time is not primarily in whether or not
2 the amount of time the testimony of the witness takes, but the loss of
3 time is in the idle days where we hear no evidence at all.
4 MR. JORDASH: No, I fully accept that. And I come to the Chamber
5 with abject apologies for the situation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And if you say, I understand what the consequences
7 are, do you then accept that time not used is still part of the time that
8 was available for you to present your case?
9 MR. JORDASH: We would fully accept that that time should come
10 off our hourly allocation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's one of the consequences. Of course one of
12 the other consequences is that those who are funding this Tribunal, that
13 is, the international community, will ask itself why the presentation of
14 the Defence case could not have been shorter, where the time you've
15 claimed is not used and then not filled by any other evidence where you
16 apparently then give up on some time of your case presentation, but the
17 case presentation does take just as much time.
18 Finally, that is -- I mean, if apparently you are unable to call
19 witnesses, then you would expect the case to be shortened, that is, to be
20 concluded earlier in time. Whereas now the outcome is that the case
21 presentation will be concluded without having used all the time at the
22 same point in time as if you would have called witnesses for those days.
23 MR. JORDASH: Well, the -- the -- what I respond to that is to
24 say, We are dealing with human beings. I cannot march to Belgrade and
25 drag a witness here if that witness is not available. We've done what we
1 can. And I come with abject apologies, but at the end of the day, I have
2 done, we have done, what we can do. And we live with the
3 unpredictability of witnesses who have other things to do other than
4 attend this court, unfortunately.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time you have considered whether or
6 not to ask the Chamber to issue a subpoena and you apparently have
7 refrained from doing so.
8 MR. JORDASH: Because, we -- it's, as Your Honours know, a last
9 resort. And what I don't want to do is -- having watched this witness,
10 the present one, be dragged to court in hands cuffs for other reasons, I
11 accept, but I would rather avoid having another witness dragged here
12 under any form of duress. Doesn't help our case, in the end.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see that point. That's ...
14 MR. JORDASH: I mean, I repeat the apology. I accept it's
15 something that we would have wanted to avoid and I know Your Honours want
16 to avoid. We --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there no way of providing the Prosecution with
18 the information they are asking for? Again, the Chamber is not
19 interested at this moment in what exactly they are asking, whether they
20 could do with a little bit less, but is there any way to resolve that by
21 intensifying the efforts to -- to get that information or to see whether
22 next witness -- next week, if the witness would appear, whether, as
23 sometimes happens, the problems are overcome by some inventivity and hard
24 extra work sometimes?
25 MR. JORDASH: We don't have a statement for this witness, not
1 even a draft one. I've met the witness for a very short period of time
2 and have probably, I think, five or six paragraphs of approximately what
3 he might say.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, from what I've seen, and,
5 again, the Chamber doesn't want to interfere with that, but there is a
6 list of dates, when did this happen, when did that happen, apparently on
7 the basis of a 65 ter statement which must have been prepared in one way
8 or another as well, must be on the basis of at least some interviews of
9 the witness. So I wonder whether we really have to sit back and say,
10 "Not next week, only after that," whether there's no way of proceeding in
11 such a way, trying to collect that information to the extent possible,
12 provide it to the Prosecution, for the Prosecution then, and I don't want
13 to spoil your weekends, but sometimes weekends are a bit spoiled, and
14 then to see how we could still proceed and to see where we would -- and
15 if we would give it even an imperfect try.
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, as I said at the beginning, it's certainly
17 possible. I mean, we could have WVS bring the witness, this, I suspect,
18 by Friday, and we could proof him over the weekend and we could provide
19 the Prosecution with that on the Monday.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And then perhaps see what comes out of it. We do
21 not know yet. It might be that on the basis of what is then available as
22 information that the Prosecution would say, No way any cross-examination.
23 Or that if the witness would say, I don't know anything about this, don't
24 know anything about that, that the Prosecution might be less troubled by
25 hearing the evidence and preparing for cross-examination.
1 Ms. Marcus.
2 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour, we're certainly willing to be as
3 flexible as possible. I think Monday is quite late notice, I have to
4 say. I don't know if there's any possibility of having an investigator
5 meet with the witness before the witness comes, at least to clarify the
6 questions we have on the 65 ter summary, perhaps a combination of that.
7 And then on-going notice on a rolling basis. If they proof the witness
8 on Saturday, perhaps we could receive what they've received that day,
9 et cetera. We're certainly willing to consider it and to do our utmost
10 in that respect. We will try and then keep the Chamber informed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
12 MR. JORDASH: I mean, we will -- we'll do what we can to have
13 the -- I don't know off the top of my head whether the witness is
14 available tomorrow or not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But would you have someone to interview him on the
16 specific questions raised by the ...
17 MR. JORDASH: Well, that's what I -- the interview -- sorry, the
18 investigator is there, and it's only whether the witness is available to
19 meet the investigator tomorrow at this notice.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, at the same time, if the witness is
21 expected to appear next week, I mean, then you would expect that he is
22 aware that some preparations are needed anyhow. But try to explore that
23 further at this moment. The Chamber will consider it over the next break
24 as well and to see how to proceed. And just for you to know that it's a
25 great concern to the Chamber, both to lose evidence and to not use time
1 available. And, again, if there are no witnesses, fine. But then the
2 case should be concluded earlier because it extends the time, the life
3 span, of this case, and that's, of course, if there's no evidence, it's
4 not what we are seeking to happen.
5 We move into -- unless there's anything further to be said about
6 it, we move into closed session.
7 [Closed session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness DST-040. We will wait
25 until counsel has arrived. And meanwhile, I'd like to remind you that
1 the solemn declaration you gave yesterday is still binding, that is, that
2 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: DST-040 [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps I already ask you whether you are able
6 to review the material that was given to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for counsel to arrive.
9 Perhaps, Mr. Groome, I meanwhile also ask you whether your
10 conversation with Mr. Cepic yesterday was fruitful?
11 MR. GROOME: I spoke with Mr. Cepic outside the courtroom and he
12 was going to speak to his client. I have not spoken to Mr. Cepic since
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Good afternoon, Mr. Cepic. I already reminded the witness that
16 he is still bound by his solemn declaration. I asked him whether he had
17 been able to review the material that was given to him, which he
18 confirmed. The question I would have for you is whether you had an
19 opportunity to speak with the witness after you had a conversation with
20 Mr. Groome and whether that causes any problems or whether it assisted in
21 overcoming any possible problems.
22 MR. CEPIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I had a meeting this
23 morning with the witness but unfortunately I had no material in my
24 possession which I received from Mr. Groome two hours ago, so I had no
25 opportunity to discuss about this material, but of course we spoke about
1 relevant issues regarding to the instruction. And actually our
2 conversation, I could say that it is related to that material.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And that was a useful conversation? I'm not seeking
4 any details about what you discussed with Mr. Groome.
5 Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, so the record is clear with respect to
7 the materials Mr. Cepic is referring to: I gave him a copy of the legal
8 documents that were provided by Serbia so he could actually look at the
9 documents that relate to his client.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I do not know whether we'll touch upon
11 any matter which is contained in there, but let's proceed for the time
12 being, and let's hear what the questions will be. And then I take it
13 that you'll be very alert on any self-incrimination issue that may arise.
14 Mr. Bakrac, are you ready? You said yesterday you would need
15 another half an hour. I'm looking at the clock and invite you to start.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Pages 14559-14560 redacted. Closed session.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D218.
19 Q. You said you knew of certain MUP activities but that you could
20 not tell us anything more specific about the staff itself. I tried to
21 draw a parallel, and for that reason I'll show you a document from 1998
22 and hopefully you can comment on it. On the cover page you can see that
23 it's a decision to establish a ministerial staff for the suppression of
24 terrorism. The date is in 1998, and it has to do with Kosovo. We see
25 here the members of the staff.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And could we then go to page 2.
2 Q. Have a look at item 3. It reads:
3 "For its work, as well as the work of the staff and the situation
4 of security concerning the remit of the work of the staff, the head of
5 the staff shall inform the minister about security-related developments,
6 measures taken."
7 If you suppose there was a staff in Bajina Basta concerning the
8 current security situation there, would you suppose that the principle
9 was the same, in other words, that the head of staff was answerable to
10 the ministry concerning all the activities of the staff within its
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you can ask the witness whether he knows
13 anything about it. But whether what he supposes or what he assumes is
14 not what assists the Chamber. If he knows anything about it, fine, then
15 please ask him.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Let me ask you this first: Do you know anything specific about
19 A. No.
20 Q. My second question: Was the principle such that whenever a staff
21 was formed, the MUP staff was answerable to the minister of the interior
22 for its work?
23 A. Yes, that was the principle that was applied.
24 Q. Do you know of a staff in Hrtkovci?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Did the staff in Hrtkovci follow the same principle, i.e., that
2 it reported to the minister of the interior?
3 A. The staff in Hrtkovci reported to the chief of the department and
4 the assistant minister, as far as I recall.
5 Q. Very well, witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I inquire with you. We're now talking about
7 reporting systems. Is your answer that that was the structure that they
8 should report to, or do you have any knowledge about the reporting?
9 Because then it would make sense to ask ourselves whether the reporting
10 always took place or not always. Do you have any factual knowledge or
11 are you just answering on the basis of the structures, that is, that the
12 lower level reports to the further-up level and then finally up to the
13 highest level? Is it factual knowledge or is it an interpretation of
14 what the structure obliged those in that structure to do?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The latter. I was discussing the
16 principle of reporting.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, before calling up another document, I have a question.
21 Was it the principle that the State Security Service, in 1992, for
22 example, had vetting procedures in place for candidates even if they were
23 candidates for the public security sector?
24 A. Could you repeat, please.
25 Q. Do you know whether it was standard procedure that the
1 State Security Service also carried out checks of certain people who may
2 have been candidates if requested to do so by the public security sector?
3 A. Yes, and it was applied as well. It wasn't just a principle.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] could we please have 2D884. It
5 is ... could we please have page 7 in B/C/S, and page 6 in the English
6 version. Yes, this is the first page. Page 7, please. And page 6 in
7 the English.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The English translation is not attached.
11 Pages 14565-14571 redacted. Closed session.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting, and as we're
17 approaching the break, I wonder, could I raise an issue with the Chamber?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Can that be raised in the presence of the witness?
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so. We will wait until the technical
21 problems with the ELMO have been resolved.
22 Meanwhile, Mr. Groome.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, during the first break I would like to
24 ask the witness to review a set of documents. They are per diem
25 payments. These -- the date is not on the form, and I would ask that the
1 witness take this binder and review it over the course of the break and
2 see if he's able to assist the Chamber in identifying the dates or the
3 year when these payments were made.
4 Given his evidence yesterday, I believe it is probable that he
5 can assist. I've spoken to both my colleagues before court, I've shown
6 them the binder, and they have no objection to this procedure.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll invite you to make the clear
8 instructions or at least the request with the relevant instructions.
9 Witness DST-040, you'll receive a binder, and Mr. Groome will
10 tell you exactly what he would like you to look at during the next break.
11 But let's first see whether we have the ELMO functioning.
12 Apparently not.
13 Okay. Instead of spending five or 10 minutes on this, could the
14 document be copied five, six, or seven times so that everyone have a look
15 at it, that the witness has it in front of him, and that the Registrar
16 has a copy so to be able to identify whether a later-uploaded document is
17 the same as we look at. Can it be copied? Yes. Not to say that
18 meanwhile the ELMO will be repaired, or that's fine, but ...
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I may be the
20 source of the loss of time, it is my proposal that I propose which
21 documents we'll seek to tender while we are waiting.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would your last questions for the witness
23 be on the document --
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then meanwhile, as accurately as
1 possible, please make your applications for either marking documents for
2 identification or for tendering them into evidence, Mr. Bakrac.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. First, for
4 identification, could we please have 2D885, the personnel file of
5 Mr. Franko Simatovic pending a full translation. And it should be under
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the yet untranslated personnel file
8 of Mr. Simatovic would be number ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] Document 2D885 will
10 receive number D455, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification under seal.
12 Mr. Bakrac --
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Perhaps it might be useful for the Prosecution to
16 state that that document we have received from the Government of Serbia,
17 I do not contest its authenticity. So it's simply a matter of
18 translation that prevents its admission at this stage.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Bakrac, next.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 2D882 is the next one.
22 We'll also seek to tender it under seal and to be marked for
23 identification pending a full translation of the document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, you're overestimating the memory
25 capacity of this Trial Chamber. Could you tell us what -- having given a
1 number, Madam Registrar will be able to find it, but could you briefly
2 describe what that document was.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was trying to avoid
4 calling that document a personnel file because it is the document the
5 witness said was a document of the counter-intelligence department of the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I do remember what file. That's the file
8 of a different format compared to the one we saw today.
9 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] Document 2D882 will
11 receive number D456, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked --
13 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] -- for identification,
15 provisionally under seal.
16 Mr. Groome.
17 MR. GROOME: And the Prosecution does not contest its
18 authenticity or its relevance.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
20 Next, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's another
22 document of the same type as the previous one, and it is 2D884, also
23 marked for identification pending a full translation.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Have we seen it? Have we seen it yesterday or
25 today? I mean, numbers, I apologise, but for numbers I would not
1 immediately have a picture on my mind of what the number stands for.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we did see one
3 page of it today.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, it is a page from another document. At
5 least, it's one out of a series of documents which was under P - and now
6 I'm going to make a mistake again, most likely - P25-- was it -55 or -65,
7 Mr. Groome?
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. 65 ter 6292.
9 Apologies. That is the complete document of the Prosecution. It has
10 been translated. And if they have no objections, it can be admitted
11 immediately. We have a full translation, and it was marked by the
12 Prosecution as 65 ter 6292.
13 MR. GROOME: The Prosecution has no objection to its admission,
14 Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So we then get a more complete document but we have
16 not been informed about the remainder, that means everything we did not
18 For that reason, Madam Registrar, could you assign a number to
19 65 ter 6292.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] The number would be --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] -- D457, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- Madam Registrar, your microphone was
24 not activated.
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] This would be D457,
1 Your Honours.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I repeat because there -- I get a transcript
4 and at the same time I hear that the microphone is not activated. I
5 therefore read from the transcript that the number assigned by
6 Madam Registrar would be D457. Could the parties then inform me about
7 what we find in this document in addition to the part we have seen. What
8 else do we have? Are there recipes, or are they ... I mean ...
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is a collection of
10 different documents concerning a person by the name of Davor Subotic.
11 They are in the same format as the documents the witness recognised as
12 being from the counter-intelligence organ of the unit.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You would say and we have seen part of that file,
14 whereas the file contains more documents relevant from the
15 counter-intelligence point of view.
16 Mr. Groome, are you happy to have the whole of it in evidence?
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I agree with that
18 characterisation, and we'll be asking the witness questions about other
19 portions of that as well.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's good. Under those circumstance, I think
21 the document is ready to be admitted into evidence.
22 Should it be under seal?
23 MR. GROOME: Provisionally, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D457 is admitted into evidence, provisionally under
1 Mr. Bakrac, anything else?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The next document, Your Honour, is
3 something that has to do with the Witness DST-040. It is the same kind
4 as the previous one. It is 2D886 which he commented upon. We do not
5 have a translation yet, hence I propose it be marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The number for 2D886 would be D458, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification, as there's no translation
10 And provisionally under seal, Mr. Bakrac?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any other document?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. 2D883. It is a
14 part of a document which is a file of the counter-intelligence organ of
15 the unit. We looked at pages 16 and 17 with the witness, concerning
16 certain checks, which was the topic I put questions about, as something
17 being done in the Serbian Republic of the Krajina.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution would submit that the
20 Trial Chamber needs to have the entire personnel file before it to
21 understand the particular two documents that were referred to in court
22 and the context of this person's career in the State Security Service.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is that to say that we have to look at pages 1 to 15
24 as well, or other material?
25 MR. GROOME: Other material in the file, Your Honour. There may
1 be a page or two that are not directly relevant, but I think any time
2 that we look at a document in isolation from these personnel files, it
3 can give the Chamber a misleading impression about the person's career.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Now, Mr. Bakrac, of course I've not looked at it. Any problem in
6 uploading the whole of that file where we only looked at the pages 16 and
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no problems. I
9 would only ask Mr. Groome, if possible, to assist me in identifying the
10 entire document. My 2D number is the number we assigned to it for the
11 two pages alone.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to the
13 entire document or the entire file, of which pages 16 and 17 were shown
14 under number 2D883, would receive -- that number would be what?
15 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be D459, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification, provisionally
17 under seal. The Chamber would like to hear from Mr. Groome and
18 Mr. Bakrac whether they have identified the whole of that file and
19 whether it's uploaded.
20 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter, Mr. Bakrac?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The last
23 document is something that you instructed me about yesterday. You asked
24 that the part of Mladic's diary, which is 65 ter 5609, be identified
25 since there are two different portions of his diary under the same
1 number. Could we please have admitted the meeting of the
2 7th of October, 1994, in handwriting. Those are pages 43 to 63, and ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, as matters stand now, you have to upload
5 the pages that you have selected. Then it's only under those
6 circumstances, and once uploaded, that Madam Registrar is able to assign
7 numbers to it in the system. We cannot assign numbers to portions of
8 uploaded documents. So you are invited first to upload the relevant
9 pages. Anything else?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That would
11 be it. Since we have two minutes left before the break, by your leave, I
12 wanted to ask the last question of the witness and then conclude.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. And we have -- meanwhile, the
14 ELMO seems to function properly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break: Mr. Groome, I asked you to
19 instruct the witness what he should look at when looking at the file you
20 are providing to him, and could the usher assist in getting it to the
22 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. Just on that last matter, I
23 can assist Mr. Bakrac. We have located a translation of this document; I
24 can provide it to him over the break.
25 DST-040, during my examination of you, I'd like to ask you
1 something about the documents in the binder that you are going to be
2 handed. They are a number of per diem sheets very much like the ones
3 that you have been shown during your examination. I simply ask you to
4 review them. And if you are able to, tell us, because of your experience
5 and function, whether -- what the year was when these per diems were
6 paid. Do you understand that instruction?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you understand the instruction? So, to see
8 whether you can link any of these lists to a specific year.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that.
10 MR. GROOME: Can I just add to that, Your Honour. The index to
11 the binder which lists all of the exhibits has been uploaded as
12 65 ter 6298.
13 And, DST-040, if, in looking at those documents, you recognise
14 the year, I'd ask you simply to write the year next to the table of
15 contents, to the index at the front, to indicate that you recognise the
16 year that the document came from.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, or is it clear to you,
18 Witness DST-040?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All is clear.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break.
21 Mr. Groome, I urge the Prosecution to see whether they could also
22 conclude in two sessions. We'll see how it happens. We have Thursday
23 still available at this moment, so therefore it would not be traumatic if
24 it would not be exactly within the two sessions. But let's try to ensure
25 that the testimony can be concluded somewhere in the middle of our
1 Thursday session.
2 We take a break, and we resume at five minutes past 4.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, the Chamber has considered the
7 request to delay the start of the examination of Witness DST-036. The
8 Chamber is urging the Stanisic Defence to do whatever it can to -- in
9 order to avoid that we have to delay the start of the testimony of
10 Witness 36, which means that you should explore possibilities of
11 receiving already information which the Prosecution say it needs in order
12 to meaningfully cross-examine the witness.
13 MR. JORDASH: The -- our investigator is currently trying to get
14 hold of the witness to ascertain whether he can come to the office
15 tomorrow. And as soon as I know anything, I'll inform Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber would like to be updated. But,
17 again, we urge you to make every effort not to have these days lost next
18 week. And we'll hear further from you tomorrow.
19 Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted, before
21 Mr. Groome starts his cross-examination, to say for the record that we
22 acted according to your recommendation and we have uploaded -- or,
23 rather, that part of Mladic's diary will be uploaded as 2D9 -- 899.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Will be uploaded or is uploaded?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is being done as we
1 speak. That would be the most precise answer. Once the Registrar starts
2 the uploading procedure, it takes some time for the procedure to be
3 completed. In any case, we have reserved the number that will be
4 assigned to the document once it's fully uploaded.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
6 Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Groome. Mr. Groome
7 is counsel for the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Groome, please proceed.
11 Page 14585 redacted. Closed session.
24 MR. GROOME: Well, first could I ask that 65 ter 6298 be brought
25 to our screens.
1 Q. This is an index of the binder that you had before you. While
2 that is coming up: Were you able to recognise the year in which these
3 payments were made?
4 A. I cannot be sure. I can only assume. I do have an assumption.
5 Q. I'd ask you not to make an assumption. If you have no idea about
6 when they were made, tell us that. If there are some features about the
7 documents that allow you to tell us when they were made, then please go
8 ahead and do that.
9 A. This is precisely what I was saying. Some elements do point to a
10 certain period of time. They are documents with the letters "JPN." They
11 could originate from 1993. As for the rest of the documents, depicting
12 the letters JATD, I can't say whether they originate from 1994, 1995, or
13 1993, but I'm sure that they were not produced in 1996.
14 Q. So if I understand your testimony correctly - you've been asked
15 to look at 26 exhibits of per diems - in those per diem sheets that use
16 the initials JPN, you believe that they were made in 1993, and those that
17 have the initials JATD you believe they were made sometime between 1993
18 and 1995; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And on the screen before you is 65 ter 6298, and is that a copy
21 of the index of the binder you were asked to look at?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution would
24 tender 65 ter 6298 to record the documents that the witness has just
25 given evidence about.
1 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,
2 the number would be ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: This would be P3033, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. GROOME: Could I now ask that Prosecution Exhibit P2158 be
7 brought to our screens. And if we could go immediately to page 3.
8 Q. Now, DST-040, in your evidence you have mentioned your meetings
9 with Radojica Bozovic. I would like you to look at P2158. Look at the
10 uniforms that the people are wearing and tell us whether these uniforms
11 are similar to what Mr. Bozovic was wearing at the times that you met
13 MR. GROOME: If we could zoom in a little bit on the document but
14 still keep the whole page visible.
15 Q. Are these the type of uniform that Mr. Bozovic was wearing when
16 you met him? If not, can I ask you to describe how his uniform differed.
17 A. This is a camouflage uniform, and that one was similar to this
18 one. He often sported a black hat. Sometimes he was without a hat. In
19 any case, the uniform is similar to his. And also I see the insignia of
20 JSO, and I see the anything of the Republic of Serbia Krajina under
21 number 8, if I remember that well. And there's also a modified symbol, a
22 stylized symbol. I don't know what version this is, but in any case,
23 this is a camouflaged uniform.
24 Q. If we could focus on the picture that has number 8 on it, again
25 can you describe where you have seen this before, what you believe it to
2 A. I don't know if I ever came across this particular insignia on
3 any of the uniforms, but it does look like a kind, a prototype, or the
4 initial version, of sorts, of the future JSO insignia that was introduced
5 in 1996 or perhaps 1997. But there are many other additional details
6 that I see here.
7 Q. Now, the record, transcript, records you as saying, with respect
8 to this:
9 "... the Republic of Serbia Krajina under number 8, if I remember
10 that well."
11 Did you recognise this as being worn by members of the
12 Republic of Serbian Krajina or of some division or some organisation in
13 the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
14 A. Perhaps something similar. If I were given anything else to
15 compare this with. There are some elements that remind of those.
16 Q. And which elements are those?
17 A. The sword, an element that often appeared on the uniform of the
18 RSK members, and the three-coloured flag.
19 MR. GROOME: Could we now go to the photograph that is marked
20 with number 11.
21 Q. I ask you, do you recognise the person depicted in number 11?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And who is that?
24 A. Zvezdan Jovanovic.
25 Q. Did you testify at the trial of Mr. Jovanovic in 2007?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That trial was for the assassination of Serbia's duly elected
3 president Zoran Djindjic; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you testify as a Defence witness?
6 A. Yes.
11 Pages 14591-14607 redacted. Closed session.
14 MR. GROOME: Could I ask that we please have D87 on our screens.
15 I believe it is a public exhibit.
16 Q. This is a decision on the establishment of PJM units of the
17 Serbian MUP public security department dated the 1st of August, 1993, and
18 signed by Zoran Sokolovic. Can you confirm that this is the decision you
19 were referring to when you earlier referred to the re-organisation of the
20 PJM units pursuant to a decision?
21 A. Yes, the decision on the establishment of PJMs.
22 Q. Now, would it be a correct characterisation of this decision that
23 it formalised the re-organisation of already existing units of the public
24 security sector? Would that be a correct characterisation of this
1 A. Please repeat your question. I don't understand your question
2 very well, sir.
3 Q. Would I be correctly describing this decision by saying it
4 formalised the re-organisation of already existing PJM units?
5 A. Well, I couldn't put it that way. This is the decision on the
6 establishment of units, which means that they are established and they
7 are organised. And the units that are established are detachments based
8 in various cities. Before that, the unit would be gathered because of --
9 in more pronounced security threats. It was an ad hoc gathering. And
10 this became valid in 1992 and specified which unit is gathered in which
11 place and how it functioned once it gathered at that place.
12 Q. Now, you have referred in your statement and your testimony about
13 the name "Red Beret." To your knowledge, did Red Berets have an
14 affiliation with the PJM?
15 A. With the PJM, no.
16 Q. Now, DST-040, is it not true that the special units of the
17 State Security Service share a similar history with the PJM units in that
18 they were established in 1991 and underwent a re-organisation in 1993, a
19 re-organisation which formalised an already existing unit?
20 A. I don't agree with that statement.
21 Q. And what is your position with respect to when the special units
22 of the State Security Service began?
23 A. According to what I know, the decision on the establishment of DB
24 units of the JATD dates back to mid-1993. I don't know the exact date
25 when that happened. I know nothing of its earlier existence because I
1 was not a member of any of those units, I was not a member of that
2 sector, and I don't know anything about those developments.
3 Q. Is it possible that the unit existed before 1993 and simply you
4 do not know or do not have information with respect to that fact?
5 A. I didn't know anything about the state security sector before
6 1993. I never got involved in the work of the sector, and I knew nothing
7 about the functioning of the State Security Service.
8 Q. Once you became a member of that unit, did you ever learn
9 information about its early history by speaking to members of the unit?
10 A. There were various comments and stories about the activities
11 undertaken by certain individuals who later joined the unit. They spoke
12 about their missions in various areas, but I didn't know anything about
13 that. I wasn't interested in that. It was the security matter and not a
14 matter for logistics, so I really don't know much about those things.
15 Q. Can you tell us what areas members of the unit told you they were
16 active in prior to 1993?
17 A. In the unit, I came across people who hailed from
18 Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina from various parts
19 thereof. Some of them had never been members of any unit, some of them
20 had participated in some of the activities in their own areas, but I
21 didn't know anything about that.
22 Q. Can you tell us the names that you recall, the people that told
23 you about their activities prior to the formation of the unit?
24 A. I know men who stayed with the service, who stayed in the unit.
25 For example, Dragutin Stanojevic who hailed from the area of Skelani.
1 Desimir Butina was also from Skelani.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, I'm looking at the clock.
3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would this be a suitable moment for a break?
5 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take a break, however, I'd like to put the
7 following on the record: Today 65 ter number 6298 was assigned number
8 P3033. However, that number had already been used last week when we had
9 another representative of the Registry in court. Therefore, 65 ter 6298
10 is now assigned a new number which is P3037.
11 Further, the document containing the pages 16 and 17, which were
12 shown under number 2D883, the Registrar and the Chamber are still waiting
13 for the pages, the uploading of it, of the whole file of which D459,
14 until now, is part of. Could you please, to the extent possible, inform
15 Madam Registrar during the break.
16 And then we, finally, have another matter in relation to
17 65 ter 6294, which was referred to several times as having only 12 pages,
18 whereas the document known to Madam Registrar has 15 pages and she's
19 seeking clarification for that difference.
20 We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 6.00.
11 Pages 14612-14622 redacted. Closed session.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender both of
16 these. I have seen from e-court that there are extra pages in
17 65 ter 6288. Could I ask that it be marked for identification, and
18 overnight I will isolate the pages that are relevance for the Chamber's
19 purposes and re-upload the exhibit.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, if the document is contaminated, then
22 you should upload a new document. And then if the present document would
23 be assigned that number, then you would have to seek leave so that
24 Madam Registrar, at a later stage, replace the document which is then
25 known under the assigned number by another one. And I think we could
1 proceed on that basis. I'm also looking at Madam Registrar. If --
2 unless, of course, Mr. Jordash has objections which --
3 MR. JORDASH: Well, I wanted to put on the record that in
4 relation to these exhibits, or prospective exhibits, and in relation to
5 the last exhibit our position remains the same, that we object to the
6 admission of what is, in our view, fresh and new evidence.
7 We are in a difficult situation following Your Honours'
8 26th of August, 2011, guidance on the admission of evidence of documents
9 tendered by the Prosecution during the Defence case because Your Honours'
10 guidance allows the Prosecution to use a document and, once its used, the
11 evidence about it is on the record and in many ways it's difficult then
12 to mount an objection to the document itself. But we do object, and we
13 object to any and all new evidence unless it relates solely to the issue
14 of the witness's credibility.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you would like to have it on the record so
16 that you can rely on your objections at any future stages of the
17 proceedings --
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I mean, I'm --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- either before this Chamber or before any other
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes. I mean, I'm in a certain difficult situation
22 because what I don't want to do is just jump up every time there's new
23 evidence, and at the same time I want to secure the position for any
24 subsequent procedure -- proceedings.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps it's easier if we leave it here
2 I will up upload new exhibits tomorrow morning that are -- have been
3 corrected and then leave them with their 65 ter numbers until tomorrow
4 morning, is that the easiest way to proceed?
5 JUDGE ORIE: That might be the less confusing way of proceeding.
6 So we hear from you -- it's your initiative tomorrow to ask numbers to be
7 assigned to then freshly uploaded documents.
8 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. If I might, Your Honour,
9 Your Honour asked me a question earlier today with respect to exhibits,
10 and I have the answer now. If I can just put it on the record.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 MR. GROOME: With respect to D459, we have verified that the
13 entire document is what is presently in e-court. And with respect to
14 65 ter 6294.1 there are 12 pages in the English and 15 pages in the
15 original. So that is the discrepancy with respect to that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, is this sufficient information for
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME:
14 a clip from the Kula camp, the Rade Kostic centre. The clip is from
15 17 minutes, 37 seconds to 17 minutes, 54 seconds. I'd ask that it be
16 played now.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. What we can see before us are pictures of men on the wall. Are
20 you familiar with these pictures?
21 A. These are pictures taken in the memorial room.
22 Q. And are these pictures of the men in the unit who died in action?
23 A. Not all of them. They are also pictures of those members -- or,
24 rather, those men who died but were not unit members.
25 Q. Can you explain why someone who died would have their picture
1 placed on the memorial wall of the unit? I'm sorry, I should be more
2 specific in my question. Can you explain why someone who was not a
3 member of the unit and who died would have their picture placed on the
4 memorial wall of the unit?
5 A. I didn't participate in the creation of the memorial room. In
6 the memorial room you will find all those who, in view of the leadership
7 of the service, were deserving people for one reason or another unknown
8 to me, and that's why they deserved to find themselves on that wall.
9 Q. Would it be fair to say that they in some way had contributed to
10 the work of the unit?
11 A. One can say that in one way or another they probably contributed
12 to the work of the service. As far as I know, the service did not have
13 any other place, a museum or a place like that, where they could display
14 the pictures of their dead employees or, alternatively, those who
15 contributed to their work.
16 Q. When you say service, you mean the State Security Service?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I'd like to now turn your attention to Pauk --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, could I ask one or two questions in
20 relation to the last matter raised.
21 Could you give us one or two names of persons who are -- whose
22 pictures are on this wall but who are not members of the unit?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know some family names. For
24 example, Krsmanovic, he was not a unit member. He died somewhere in the
25 area of Bajina Basta or the Tara river. He was killed in an accident.
1 Another one is Radoslav Kostic who was not a unit member but his picture
2 hangs on the memorial wall.
3 I don't have the pictures in front of me. If you were to show me
4 some of the pictures, maybe that would jog my memory.
5 JUDGE ORIE: This person by the name of Krsmanovic, was that --
6 was he in any way related to you, family of yours?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know what his link to the unit was that,
9 although he died in an accident, that he nevertheless --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know how he
11 was --
12 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know how he died and when he died? Did
13 you know that person?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know him. His name is
15 on the list. I know that his wife came to seek assistance. I don't know
16 exactly where he resided, but I heard from the others that he was killed
17 in a minefield on his own property, or something like that. I don't know
18 what he had done before that and what his link to the unit was.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Can you be certain about that he never was a member
20 of the unit?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he wasn't. I
22 don't even know the date when he died. I only know that his name
23 appeared on the list for the payment of per diems.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do I understand your testimony well that
25 you cannot with certainty testify that this Mr. Krsmanovic was not a
1 member -- not ever a member of the unit?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, for the other person you mentioned, can you
4 testify with certainty that he never was a member of the unit?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Radoslav was
6 never in the unit. He was in Eastern Slavonia and he was in the MUP of
7 Serbia. I don't know what he was in the state security sector, but in
8 any case, he was not a unit member. He was not in the JATD.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And what would then have been his link to the unit?
10 Are you aware of that in any way?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know of any links of his
12 with the unit. He was an employee who transferred from Eastern Slavonia
13 to the state security sector, but not to the unit.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know how he died?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that he was killed in the
16 general area of Velika Kladusa, but I'm not aware of any of the details
17 of his death.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know -- now, there is some discussion about
19 the unit JATD, any predecessors of that, how it was formed, when it was
20 formed. Could you exclude with certainty that this person, that's the
21 second one you talked about, in any earlier stage had to do anything with
22 what the Prosecution may claim the unit to be before 1993?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if there was a unit
24 under that name in Western Slavonia or a formation under that name, or
25 perhaps in some other part of the country. It may have existed, but I
1 don't know about that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. DST-040, the Rade Kostic that you're talking about, is this not
5 the same person whose name was given to the headquarters of the unit?
6 A. I don't understand your question. Perhaps the interpretation was
8 Q. The name of Rade Kostic, is this the same person who has a
9 memorial with his -- a sculpture of his head, a bust, on the grounds of
10 the headquarters of the unit?
11 A. In Kula.
12 Q. And the centre is named after Rade Kostic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think the answer was with a question mark, which
14 now disappears.
15 When you said in Kula, did you want to confirm that the
16 headquarters of the unit Mr. Groome asked you about, that you take that
17 for being the Kula headquarters; is that how we have to understand your
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The centre in Kula bears the name
20 of Radoslav Kostic. It is called the Radoslav Kostic Centre, and it is
21 in Kula.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And I think Mr. -- what Mr. Groome would like to
23 know is whether, when you are talking about the person Radoslav Kostic,
24 whose portrait appears on this wall, whether that's the same as the
25 person after whom the Kula centre was named.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. And is it your evidence that this person was not a member of the
5 A. Rade Kostic was an employee of the state security sector, as far
6 as I know. He was not on the payroll of the anti-terrorist unit. He was
7 not on the list of members of the unit, at least as much as I know about
9 Q. I would like to now ask you some questions concerning
10 Operation Pauk --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Sorry, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you told us he was not on the payroll.
14 Could you tell us anything more about apparently a prominent person whose
15 bust is in the Kula centre, whose picture is on the wall, what, then,
16 linked him to that centre?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is this: Rade Kostic
18 was in Eastern Slavonia. He was chief in Osijek -- I don't know what his
19 position was, as a matter of fact, and then he joined the state security
20 sector. I don't know when and I don't know what his position there was.
21 But in any case, he was highly positioned. Rade Kostic was killed in
22 Kladusa. When the centre in Kula was established in 1996, the service
23 decided to name the centre after Radoslav Kostic. This is all I know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Groome.
11 Pages 14632-14633 redacted. Closed session.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I see from the clock that it appears to
16 be time for the end of the day. I can break there until tomorrow
17 morning, if it pleases the Court.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you still need tomorrow?
19 MR. GROOME: I'm certain I will finish within the first session,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any estimates as to the time needed for
23 MR. JORDASH: Probably around 40 minutes, I think.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Forty?
25 MR. JORDASH: Yes, I think so.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Bakrac.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the time being, our
4 estimate is 10, perhaps 15 minutes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we should easily conclude the
6 evidence of this witness in two sessions tomorrow.
7 Witness, I again instruct you that you should not speak with
8 anyone about your testimony, apart from, of course, the services provided
9 by counsel. But for you the same instruction applies as I gave it to you
11 Since we'll adjourn in open session, I would like the witness to
12 be escorted out of the courtroom.
13 We'd like to see you back tomorrow. We'll not start at 9.00;
14 that may be known to the parties. We'll have a late start.
15 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
16 And for you the same applies as yesterday. People might ask what
17 your -- the reason of your presence would be here. We'd like to see you
18 back tomorrow as well. I think we start at 10.30, but let me just verify
19 that. Yes, it's 10.30.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 We adjourn for the day. And we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
10 20th of October, at half past 10.00 in the morning in this same
11 courtroom, II.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of
14 October, 2011 at 10.30 a.m.