Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14887

 1                           Thursday, 10 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-03-69-T.  The Prosecutor versus

10     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Is there any follow-up on what we discussed yesterday, witness

13     scheduling?

14             MR. JORDASH:  There is.  Firstly in relation to DST-060, we would

15     like to make an application, an oral application for a subpoena.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And may I take it that it is based on the same

17     grounds as the application -- the earlier application as a matter of fact

18     which ended up in a summons?  Let me just see.

19             MR. JORDASH:  I did foreshadow this earlier but didn't make an

20     application.  This was probably three weeks ago.  I did --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see, yes, yes.  I might mix up at this

22     moment.  We'll have -- yes, the -- we heard yesterday that the

23     Prosecution would not oppose the application.

24             MR. MARCUS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The basis seems to that the witness seems to

Page 14888

 1     be reluctant or, at least, refuses to come and testify, yes.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not object

 3     either.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there anything you would like to add to this,

 5     Mr. --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  I think with the threshold criteria, I think Your

 7     Honours, unless Your Honours need to hear further in relation to the

 8     attempts we've made, the second threshold material is that the witness's

 9     information may materially assist the case and our submissions have been

10     laid out when we made the application for a videolink, so they are there.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so we rely on that.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider the matter.  We'll do it with

14     priority.  If we would need any further information, then we'll first

15     seek that information through informal means to be put on the record at a

16     later stage.  I repeat, if.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then is there anything else?  If not, could the

19     witness be brought into the courtroom.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Whilst the witness is being brought into court,

21     perhaps we could just deal with one other matter which needs to be dealt

22     with at some point.  In relation to the witnesses that Your Honours

23     issued the decision on yesterday, the 92 bis now no longer 92 bis, having

24     considered the matter overnight and consulted with our client, we have

25     decided not to proceed with those witnesses.

Page 14889

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither of them.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Neither of them.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither of them.  Yes.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  We apologise for what might seem like a waste of

 5     judicial resources considering the issue, but ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We have considered it.  The decision is there and

 7     the Chamber decided for both the same and gave some suggestions for one

 8     of them, but you have now decided not to call either of them.  That's

 9     clear.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             MS. MARCUS:  Can I just inquire as to the third who was part of

13     that application who was a 92 quater, whether this only applies to the 92

14     bis witnesses or also to the 92 quater witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, for 92 bis and 92 ter, of course it's relevant

16     whether you call the witnesses or not.  Of course for a 92 quater

17     witness, that is not an issue, at least not for this 92 quater witness, I

18     wouldn't say never for any of them.  But I think Mr. Jordash clearly

19     referred to the two witnesses on which the Chamber had decided yesterday

20     and I think I announced yesterday that we would postpone, or at least we

21     would give our decision for the third one, at a later stage.  So I

22     understood it not to be covered by your observations.

23             MR. JORDASH:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dragicevic.  First of all,

25     apologies for --


Page 14890

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, apologies for being so impolite as to

 3     continue our conversation when you are entering the courtroom.

 4     Mr. Dragicevic, I would like to remind you again that you are still bound

 5     by the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

 6     and nothing but the truth, the solemn declaration you gave --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on Tuesday.

 9             Mr. Farr will now continue his cross-examination.

10             Mr. Farr, you may proceed.

11             MR. FARR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           WITNESS:  VLADO DRAGICEVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Farr:  [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dragicevic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   To start with I want to clarify one thing I think may have been

18     incorrectly recorded in the transcript yesterday.  Can you just confirm

19     that the uniforms you saw Rajo Bozovic, Zika Ivanovic and the other

20     special unit veterans wearing in the video of the Kula ceremony that we

21     watched yesterday are the same uniforms as the uniform that you saw

22     Franko Simatovic wearing and the other members of the DB escort wearing

23     during the hostage negotiations in 1995?  Is it correct that those are

24     the same uniforms?

25        A.   Yes, as far as I can remember.

Page 14891

 1        Q.   Okay.  When we stopped yesterday we were discussing the

 2     relationship between Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Milosevic.  In paragraph 87 of

 3     your statement you discuss one aspect of that relationship, specifically

 4     the reason for Mr. Stanisic's dismissal.  You say:

 5             [As read] "There were a lot of talks in public and press about

 6     the dismissal of Stanisic in 1998.  It was said and written that Stanisic

 7     had a clash with the Milosevic family.  I think that the direct cause was

 8     direct clash regarding the solving problems in Kosovo."

 9             In paragraph 88 of your statement you say:

10             [As read] "Stanisic believed that the Kosovo crisis could be

11     resolved by political means through negotiations and agreement and not by

12     war."

13             MR. FARR:  And can we now please have 65 ter 477 -- sorry, 4777.1

14     on the screen.  This document is a set of meeting minutes from meetings

15     of the Joint Command for Kosovo and Metohija in 1998.  This is a

16     selection from a larger document of only those minutes that are relevant

17     to DB involvement in Kosovo and this document was received from the

18     Serbian government on the 19th of July, 2002.

19        Q.   Sir, it's the Prosecution position that you are incorrect

20     regarding Stanisic's views on Kosovo.  I'm going to show you a few

21     excerpts from the minutes of meetings of the Joint Command for Kosovo and

22     then ask you whether they affect your opinion.

23             MR. FARR:  Can we please have page 5 in English and page 5 in

24     B/C/S around the middle of the page in both languages.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 14892

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm informed that we have technical difficulties.

 2     When the Registrar says to me that the system is down, it must be

 3     serious.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that the problem has been resolved.

 6             MR. FARR:

 7        Q.   Sir, these are the meetings -- sorry, these are the minutes of a

 8     meeting of the Kosovo and Metohija Joint Command from the 2nd of August,

 9     1998, and I'm interested here in the comments of Mr. Gajic.  First of

10     all, can you confirm that a man named David Gajic was a senior official

11     of the Serbian DB at this time?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   Mr. Gajic is recorded as saying:

14             [As read] "Legija from the line tt trig point 751 to Istrelov vrh

15     tt-728 and Krstovo Brdo [phoen] and Raponja [phoen] Rakitnica.  The aim

16     is to seal off Lausa.  They reached the mosque in Lausa."  At the

17     continuation of the meeting just below, he seems to say:  "The JSO and

18     the 4th Detachment entered Lausa.  The 3rd Detachment is at this former

19     lines.  Move two companies to the 4th Detachment in order to reach

20     Ovcarevo more quickly.  No."

21             MR. FARR:  If we could now have the next page in both languages,

22     please.

23        Q.   This page shows the minutes from the meeting the next day, the

24     3rd of August, 1998.  And at the beginning General Pavkovic is recorded

25     as saying:

Page 14893

 1             "Frenki and everyone go to Likovac tomorrow."  And then on the

 2     bottom half of the page Mr. Radovic says "the Franko special unit, it

 3     is," and then something was unclear to the translator, "going to between

 4     Drenica and /illegible/ Mahala."

 5             MR. FARR:  If we could now have page 8 in both languages, please.

 6        Q.   This page reflects that these are the minutes from the 12 August

 7     1998 meeting and that Jovica Stanisic was also present.

 8             MR. FARR:  If we can have the next page, we'll see what

 9     Mr. Stanisic says.

10        Q.   And I'll read it just in part.  Among other things he says:

11             [As read] "Send the DB units from Lodza to Rausic had the

12     offensive not been" -- then a word that was illegible to the translator,

13     "we would be having big problems and it's part of a resolute stand by JV.

14     We shouldn't fool ourselves, the centres have not been cleaned.  We need

15     more successes."

16             Just below that we see Mr. Sainovic say:  "The DB should cover

17     and take over this third zone."  And "the DB and the army should jointly

18     come up with ideas for what to do next."

19             Finally on the bottom half of the next page in both languages,

20     Mr. Minic is recorded as saying:

21             [As read] "We have crushed their military power part is in the

22     towns, part in Albania and part has been killed."  He then lists under

23     important points at number 2:  "Find the terrorists, keep flushing them

24     out and liquidating."  And then in "(DB)".

25             There are other similar quotes in the other minutes in this

Page 14894

 1     document but I think that this is a fair representation of them.  Sir,

 2     the Prosecution position is that these minutes show that you are wrong

 3     when you say that Mr. Stanisic favoured a political solution in Kosovo

 4     rather than a war.  What is your response to that?

 5        A.   Before I begin, I would like to draw attention to the Prosecution

 6     and the Honourable Chamber to the fact that I did not participate in

 7     those events and I haven't seen this document before.  As for my

 8     statement that Mr. Stanisic based his main views on the basis of

 9     resolving the crisis through negotiations and agreements rather than

10     through war, when I use the word "war" I did not have in mind global

11     meaning of the words but rather combat against KLA terrorist units with

12     all the means available to our country and our state.

13             What happened here is something to do exclusively with the

14     struggle against Albanian terrorist formations and one should understand

15     it solely in that way.  In my view, Mr. Stanisic's position was also to

16     try and find a solution through talks with normal and reasonable people

17     with a view to putting a stop to all the events and chaos that prevailed

18     in Kosovo at the time.  This is my opinion.

19        Q.   Now, you've just made a reference to -- well, you said:

20             "When I use the word war I did not have in mind global meaning of

21     the words but rather combat against KLA terrorist units with all the

22     means available to our country and state."

23             The last quote that I read, which is spoken by a Mr. Minic, but

24     at a meeting where Jovica Stanisic is present, he lists under important

25     points at number 2:  "Find the terrorists, keep flushing them out and

Page 14895

 1     liquidating" then in "(DB)."  Sir, doesn't that indicate that

 2     Jovica Stanisic supported and, in fact, was involved in the execution of

 3     precisely what you are talking about, combat against KLA terrorist units

 4     as you describe them?

 5        A.   Well, that was exactly the purpose for having our anti-terrorist

 6     unit, that would be used in such situations.

 7        Q.   So your evidence is that when you said that Mr. Stanisic was, in

 8     your view, opposed to war in Kosovo, that didn't include opposition to

 9     combat between the DB special unit and the KLA?

10        A.   You have to understand that we perceived and understood KLA units

11     to be terrorist units.  For that reason we used our anti-terrorist units

12     exclusively in fighting with them and not fighting the civilian

13     population.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dragicevic, just for my understanding, you say

15     Mr. Stanisic preferred peaceful solutions rather than war.  And you said

16     but KLA those were terrorists, that's not war.  Who else was there?  What

17     military units were there else than the KLA to even consider to go at war

18     with?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know they were the only

20     ones.  There was our army.  As for the view held by Mr. Stanisic that

21     these two -- these means of combatting terrorists should also be used,

22     well, they are the means used world-wide but it does not mean that one

23     needs to resort to them at all costs.  One also needed to engage in

24     discussions with those who one could speak to down there, engage

25     terrorist units and that was the way to go about it.  But it was not a

Page 14896

 1     struggle against the civilian population.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But of course you -- to conduct war against a

 3     civilian population is not exactly what one would expect an army to do,

 4     isn't it?  You don't go at war with the civilian population, you go at

 5     war with the armed forces of the other party and if I understood you

 6     well, the only armed forces you could fight against in Kosovo was the

 7     KLA, but you have now added to your answer that it was not only the --

 8     targeting the KLA, but also to seek ways of peaceful negotiations, is

 9     that how I have to understand your answer, that both tracks were on the

10     mind of Mr. Stanisic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.  Of course, an army

12     is not used against the civilian population.  It is only used against

13     alien or foreign armed forces.  That was where Milosevic made a mistake

14     later on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's another matter.  Thank you for this

16     clarification.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

18             MR. FARR:

19        Q.   Sir, just one more question on this matter.  You just said:  "An

20     army is not used against the civilian population it's only used against

21     alien or foreign armed forces."

22             Isn't that the definition of a war, or have I misunderstood you

23     somehow?

24             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, but he also said -- sorry to jump up --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, while, Mr. Jordash, you may object against the

Page 14897

 1     question, but to add to the question is not what -- if you say could you

 2     please add what he said in line so and so, then Mr. Farr can decide what

 3     he does.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I am sorry.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not for you to add to his question.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  No, you are right.  I am sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But you would like Mr. Farr to add something to his

 8     question or give more context?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I think Mr. Farr missed out the essential

10     sentence which was the sentence immediately after the witness's --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, would you consider to rephrase your

12     question in light of what Mr. Jordash just said.

13             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, in fact I think I'm happy to leave it

14     there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we proceed.

16             MR. FARR:  And at this point I would tender 65 ter 47771 --

17     4777.1 as a Prosecution exhibit.  It contains minutes from meetings on

18     six different days.  In the interest of time we've only used excerpts

19     from three of those days but the remaining three are relevant to the same

20     point and we offer this only for impeachment.

21             MR. JORDASH:  No objection.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we do object insofar

23     as the document that we have before us is not minutes.  These are notes

24     made by one of the individuals who took part in the meeting.  We feel it

25     is inappropriate to call the document "minutes" and we do feel it is

Page 14898

 1     inappropriate to have it admitted in the file in view of the nature of

 2     the document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If Mr. Farr would say that he seeks admission of the

 4     notes taken at these meetings, would that change your position,

 5     Mr. Petrovic?  And second question would be, does it go to admissibility,

 6     and if so, please explain, or does it go to weight?

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it goes primarily to

 8     the weight that can be attached to the document, but also in terms of how

 9     far the answers can be -- given by the witness can be helpful since the

10     questions as termed when put to the witness characterise the document as

11     minutes, and that was how the witness answered these questions.  And, of

12     course, it adds to -- terming the document as "minutes" adds to the

13     weight of the document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the questions that were put to the

15     witness, I think did not focus on whether you would call them minutes or

16     notes.  As a matter of fact, he was asked whether what was contained in

17     that document, whether the substance did change his mind and I asked a

18     few questions in relation to the answers he gave to Mr. Farr.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, the contents of the

22     document are unreliable, unverified and on the basis of unreliable and

23     unverified notes, the witness was asked to answer a number of questions.

24     That's the basis of my objection in relation to the document itself, the

25     way it was used with the witness and in light of what the witness had to

Page 14899

 1     comment on the document.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dragicevic, you've seen the document which

 3     certainly does not appear as a verbatim record of what was said.  Would

 4     your questions -- would your answers have been any different if Mr. Farr

 5     would not have called them minutes but notes where they appear to be

 6     notes rather than verbatim minutes?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've already said

 8     that this is the first time I'm seeing the minutes.  However, I cannot

 9     give any valuable answers because I didn't attend the meeting, nor was I

10     part of that team.  I can only give my opinion on the matter and say what

11     the way was that Mr. Stanisic believed the crisis in Kosovo could really

12     be resolved.  So I can comment on the document but I don't know how

13     helpful I can be in that regard.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  I spoke too soon.  Having taken instructions, we

16     also object to the document.  Our position is that it is not authentic.

17     It has Mr. Stanisic present in August of 1998 and he was not present in

18     the relevant location at that time.  In fact, he was in Greece.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that the document will be -- authenticity

20     seems to be a matter which we should look at.

21             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, could I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The authenticity of course, of a document -- first,

23     Mr. Farr, I give you an opportunity to respond.

24             MR. FARR:  Just briefly, in terms of authenticity, this document

25     was received from the government of Serbia and it's our position that

Page 14900

 1     that's sufficient authentication for the purposes of admission.

 2     Obviously other concerns about authenticity can go to weight.  In

 3     response to Mr. Petrovic's distinction between minutes and notes, I think

 4     he concedes that it's a record of the meeting, whatever it's called.

 5     It's offered for purposes of impeachment.  It's not offered as the basis

 6     for a conviction.  And the Chamber will weigh the document against the

 7     witness's evidence on this point.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, of course I see the document also for

 9     the first time today.  Where is the location of the meeting mentioned in

10     the document?

11             MR. JORDASH:  I think it was the very first entry and I think the

12     location was Pristina.  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And we find that where exactly?  Not on the very

14     first page at least.  I have difficulties in finding.  It's a meeting of

15     the KiM Joint Command.  Date 27th July.  So it's not only August but it's

16     also July.  But that may not be the -- the meeting where Mr. Stanisic is

17     reported to be present.

18             MR. JORDASH:  I think that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The 2nd of August is, as far as I can see now, but

20     having a glance on the document, I do not see any location.  Meeting is

21     continued in the evening hours.

22             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, it's the 12th and 13th of August entries.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  12th of August.  That is on page 8 in

24     e-court.  Let me see.  I do not see yet a location.  As far as the 13th

25     is concerned, I do not see any location either.

Page 14901

 1             MR. JORDASH:  I think all the meetings -- I don't think it says a

 2     location in the notes but all the meetings of the command were held -- of

 3     the KiM Joint Command were held in Pristina.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- at least that's the understanding of the

 5     Defence.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  And certainly Mr. Stanisic's understanding that he

 7     was in Greece and they certainly weren't held there.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 9             Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

11     one other point.  Can Mr. Farr explain to us whether the document was

12     received from the government of Serbia?  In that case, do they have an

13     RFA to which the government of Serbia responded, and if not, in what way

14     was the document obtained.  If there is any relevant evidence to that

15     effect, we'd kindly ask to be informed of them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, I think you told us already that you

17     received it from the government of Serbia?

18             MR. FARR:  That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Or at least you said it originated from the -- you

20     didn't say, I think were those words that you obtained it.  But at the

21     same time what the gist of all this is, Mr. Farr seeks to undermine the

22     value of the evidence of this witness in relation to what he says were

23     Mr. Stanisic, his intents as far as the resolution of the Kosovo problem

24     is concerned.  The document is exclusively used for impeachment purposes.

25     Now, the witness says, I wasn't involved.  And the witness has not

Page 14902

 1     expressed himself on whether it's accurate or not what is written down

 2     here, but he says, more or less, in my assessment, I have not included

 3     this information, whether true or not true, but he has not considered

 4     that information.  And he has then explained further what he meant when

 5     he said that Mr. Stanisic was rather peace-negotiation oriented than war

 6     oriented, what he understood to be war and not to be war, which is all

 7     relatively separate from what we find in the document.  It's only the

 8     document triggered these observations.  The witness did not in any way

 9     rely on them.

10             So I'm just wondering what we are actually talking about at this

11     moment.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I share Your Honour's query.  From the

13     Defence perspective we accept, or Mr. Stanisic accepts that the JSO was

14     used in military action against the KLA, which we, the Defence, say was a

15     terrorist organisation, and to that extent in our submission, the

16     document is now of little value given that Mr. Farr has put those

17     suggestions to the witness, the witness has responded.  In our submission

18     to put a huge document like this in front of the court with all these

19     potential problems doesn't really add to the cross-examination exchange

20     in our submission.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So if Mr. Farr would have introduced his questions

22     by, what would you say if reports would exist which says that

23     Mr. Stanisic this and this and this which he is allowed to do, then we

24     wouldn't need the whole document for the understanding of the evidence of

25     this witness.

Page 14903

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Unless Mr. Farr's case goes beyond Mr. Stanisic

 2     using the DB resources as a means of combatting the KLA, then since that

 3     is accepted between the parties, then -- and has been put to the witness,

 4     it seems that the document doesn't take the matter any further.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and apart from that it goes without conflict of

 6     course, it's just you are -- Mr. Farr, you are --

 7             MR. FARR:  I was just going to say the concession is that it was

 8     used against the KLA but then part of it is also that the KLA was a

 9     terrorist organisation, which makes it sound like these were -- it's

10     essentially allowing the Defence characterisation of this as being

11     anti-terrorist operations, which has a connotation of police work.  What

12     the notes make clear is that this was in fact a military operation.  This

13     was an armed conflict.  This was a war.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, any party inclined to include the whole of the

15     Kosovo conflict into this case?

16             MR. JORDASH:  No, thank you.  And --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr?

18             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I don't think that's what I'm asking for.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it was about impeachment, isn't it?  You wanted

20     to confront the witness with documentary evidence and where the

21     documentary evidence in itself and the truth of it is not the basic thing

22     to see.  You are testing the assessment of this witness whether

23     Mr. Stanisic was inclined to a more peaceful approach or that he would --

24     and I think -- it's a peaceful approach or that he would also take an

25     option of the use of armed force in the Kosovo context.  Let me try to

Page 14904

 1     explain it.  I mean, the witness has answered those questions.  I can

 2     even imagine that you wouldn't need the document anymore, so apart from

 3     whether it's authentic or not, because you said you would only use it for

 4     impeachment.  Now, whatever you needed from the document to seek the

 5     impeachment of the witness, I think you've told him.  Not -- of course,

 6     we'll fully research the authenticity and go into all the details, but

 7     that's not the point, is it?  I'm looking at all three parties now.  Both

 8     Prosecution and Defence.  Prosecution in tendering it, Defence in so

 9     strongly objecting to it.

10             MR. JORDASH:  I thought you were with us then, Your Honour, but,

11     yes, we agree.

12             MR. FARR:  Just one more point.  This isn't an attempt to

13     introduce the entire conflict.  This is notes from six days --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, Mr. Farr, you are not going to explain

15     that I think if you focus on ten days in August that I wanted to say that

16     ten days in August is the whole of the conflict.  Of course not.  I mean,

17     that doesn't need any further explanation.  You have to understand my

18     words, that is, are we going to -- are we going to discuss in the context

19     of this case the armed conflict character of what happened in Kosovo.

20             MR. FARR:  Just more point, Your Honour.  And perhaps I should

21     have made this clear.  The witness purports to understand the

22     relationship between Stanisic and Milosevic, one aspect of that is the

23     reason that he says Milosevic dismissed Stanisic.  Stanisic's views on

24     Kosovo are, therefore, relevant to this witness's understanding of the

25     relationship between Milosevic and Stanisic.  I didn't put that to him,

Page 14905

 1     but that's argument.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The ruling of the Chamber:  The document in itself

 4     used for impeachment reasons having heard the answers of the witness does

 5     not add probative value, and, therefore, it's not admitted.  Not for any

 6     authenticity concerns, but just that for your exercise seeking to impeach

 7     the witness, that -- and you said that that is what you wanted to use the

 8     document for, that the probative value is not such that we should admit

 9     it.  Therefore, admission is denied.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, that's the end of my examination.  No

12     further questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a dramatic end, Mr. Farr.

14             Mr. Petrovic, do you have any further questions for the witness?

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to put

16     several questions to the witness, if I may.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Farr, this does not mean,

20     and I also explained this to the Defence teams, that the non-admission

21     doesn't mean that the answers the witness has given, triggered by quoting

22     this document, that that evidence is in any way not there.  It's there.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's clear, Your Honour.  Thank

25     you.


Page 14906

 1                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, in relation to the last line of questioning by my

 3     learned friend, can you tell us do you know if in 1998 the KLA at least

 4     according to the American State Department, Mr. --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpret didn't catch the name.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Was characterised as a terrorist organisation; right do you

 8     recall that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you also recall in the summer of 1998 -- the name of the State

11     Department official is Robert Gelbard.  I notice that it was missing from

12     the transcript.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and is the spelling as we find it on the

14     transcript correct at this moment?

15             MR. PETROVIC:  G-e-l-b-a, I think.  A.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honour.

18        Q.   Witness, do you remember that at the time in the summer of 1998

19     almost 40 per cent of the territory of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo

20     was under the control of the Kosovo Liberation Army?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you, witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The previous answer, at least I take it from the

24     transcript has not been answered.  Whether the witness is aware,

25     Mr. Dragicevic, that the official from the State Department referred to

Page 14907

 1     the KLA as a terrorist organisation?  Oh, now, I see there is a -- let me

 2     see, yes, it's a bit confusing, the question was answered, then you added

 3     to the name and then, of course, the question was answered.  Apologies.

 4     Please proceed with your next question, Mr. Petrovic.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Witness, my learned friend began his examination today by asking

 7     you about the uniforms that you saw in the footage at Kula and during the

 8     hostage crisis.  Do you distinguish between the various types of

 9     uniforms?  Are you a person who would have any knowledge of the various

10     patterns used for camouflage uniforms?

11        A.   Unfortunately, I was just an ordinary soldier and have no ability

12     to draw that distinction.  The only thing I can say is that at the review

13     held in Kula, the unit that was lined up wore the so-called dress

14     uniform.

15        Q.   Can you distinguish between two types of camouflage uniforms?

16     Are you able to draw that distinction?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, there is a clear suggestion in these

20     questions that there may be different uniforms.  If that's your point,

21     then, of course, we would like to explore that.  We have pictures of both

22     and it might assist the Chamber that you point the differences.  The

23     witness has told us that from looking at it, it very much looked the

24     same, and that seems not to be a thorough expert opinion on the matter,

25     but if you see any difference between the two, please assist us and say

Page 14908

 1     look here the patches there or different colour or the -- that assists us

 2     more than further questions on this witness may not be the most

 3     appropriate person to make such distinction and that his layman's eye

 4     doesn't see at this moment from what he saw very briefly the distinction.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, but

 6     my learned friend's question was formulated in the same way.  He saw one

 7     photograph at one time, then he saw another photograph and the question

 8     was were those uniforms identical.  He couldn't make a comparison.  He

 9     was simply asked whether they were identical so he expressed his views

10     based on his layman skills.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I'm asking your assistance.  I'm

12     asking your assistance.  The Prosecution apparently wants to establish

13     that the uniforms are the same.  Now, with all relativity this witness

14     not being an expert, the Prosecution asked, well, in your eyes was it the

15     same, yes or no.  Now, apparently you are challenging that.  I mean, your

16     question is saying you can't make a distinction, isn't it.  There's a

17     clear suggestion there that it's different and I'm seeking your

18     assistance, show us, apart from what this witness can tell us about it,

19     that the uniforms are clearly different.  So that we can focus on that

20     because without this challenge, you could, with all relativity, the

21     evidence not given by an expert but with a layman's eye, you might be

22     inclined to believe that the uniforms are the same, they look more or

23     less the same, and if you are challenging that, we need your assistance

24     to say look at that, look at that, look at that, so that we are better

25     able to either follow the non-expert evidence and using our own layman's

Page 14909

 1     eye, or that you say no.  If you look there, open our eyes for any

 2     difference between the two.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand your

 4     suggestion but with your leave, I would like to proceed in the following

 5     way.  I just wanted to get an answer from the witness whether he was ever

 6     involved in comparing uniforms, whether he had any skills in that

 7     respect.  With your leave, the assistance that you are seeking we shall

 8     of course do our best to provide it to the Trial Chamber during our

 9     presentation of evidence.  At this point in time, we don't think that

10     this is an appropriate approach, we are happy with this answer but we do

11     understand your need for us to research and explore this issue further

12     on.  I would then try, when we come to presenting our case, to provide

13     appropriate photographs and comparisons if it is agreeable with you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16             Can the witness be shown document P3017.

17        Q.   It's a document, Mr. Dragicevic, that my learned friend showed to

18     you yesterday.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can we first look at page 1,

20     please.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, this is a report compiled by an employee of the

22     federal Ministry of the Interior on the 8th of August, 1992, as it says

23     here.  On this front page, do you see any incoming step, any protocol,

24     register number, any indication at all confirming that this document was

25     received by the competent service of the ministry?

Page 14910

 1        A.   Your Honours, if I may look a little bit closely at the document.

 2     Thank you.  It's all right now.

 3        Q.   Do you see any designation indicating that the document was

 4     submitted and received?

 5        A.   These kind of documents are not submitted.  Therefore, there is

 6     no official incoming stamp.

 7        Q.   There is no incoming stamp at all?

 8        A.   Yes.  Usually such a stamp is put on the right-hand side and it

 9     confirms that the document was received by the ministry.

10        Q.   In the upper part of the document can you see any marks that

11     would suggest that this document was sent by fax or by any similar means?

12     Can you infer anything from that?

13        A.   No, I cannot.

14        Q.   You would agree that documents were sent by fax from one address

15     to the other?

16        A.   Yes, I heard of that especially within I look at these red

17     digits.

18        Q.   This is irrelevant because this was a designation made by the

19     Prosecution.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Now, can we move to page 6 in

21     Serbian and page 7 in English.

22        Q.   Could you please look at the first few lines in the Serbian and

23     for the benefit of the Chamber, it's the lower half of the page in

24     English, where it reads that Ivanovic, aka Crnogorac, had a group

25     numbering about 40 members who identified themselves as officials of the

Page 14911

 1     MUP of Serbia.  My question for you is, do you know if the author of this

 2     report ever checked with the MUP of Serbia or the State Security of

 3     Serbia, whether Zivojin Ivanovic was really an official of the MUP of

 4     Serbia, or if he had any genuine connection with the ministry, or did he

 5     falsely represent and introduce himself?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please try not to overlap.

 7     The interpreters didn't catch the answer of the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer because since

 9     there was no pause between question and answer, the interpreters were not

10     able to translate your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now?  No, I don't know

12     anything about that.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I continue?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, are you aware that after the 1991 demonstrations in

17     Belgrade that President Milosevic's security detail took over from the

18     state security service, the public security service of the MUP of Serbia?

19        A.   That is correct.  We used to have the so-called

20     2nd Administration which provided protections to the VIPs and facilities

21     that was under the jurisdiction of the state security of the

22     Republic of Serbia.

23        Q.   Is the fact that Milosevic was engaging public security instead

24     of state security illustrates the existence or the absence of Milosevic's

25     trust vis-a-vis the state security department?

Page 14912

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

 2             MR. FARR:  That's clearly an invitation to speculate.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I rephrase my question,

 4     Your Honours?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if that's a spontaneous offer, then please do

 6     so.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   How do you understand the reasons that prompted Milosevic to have

 9     the public security station take over his security obligations and

10     responsibilities post-1991 demonstration?

11             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, same objection.  In the absence of a

12     foundation, it's still an invitation to speculate.  There's no basis to

13     believe that this witness would know why Milosevic made that decision or

14     what the reasons were.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then take it step by step.  Are you familiar

16     in any way with the reasons that prompted Milosevic to have the public

17     security station take over his security and the responsibilities after

18     the 1991 demonstration?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I understood it, that was only

20     one of the elements that demonstrated President Milosevic's mistrust.  I

21     am sorry I just wanted to make a brief introduction.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But my first question is whether you are familiar

23     with the reasons, then we'll further explore, or Mr. Petrovic will

24     further explore what that familiarity is based on and then as a third

25     step what those reasons were.  First, are you familiar with the reasons?

Page 14913

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no proof for that and I

 2     don't know what the underlying reasons were.  All I know is that it was

 3     done that way.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, there seems to be not a lot of basis

 5     for step two and step three.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know for how many years prior to 1992 the

 8     state security provided security services to presidents of the republic

 9     and other state dignitaries?

10        A.   Ever since I joined the State Security Services, the protection

11     of VIPs and other dignitaries was within the jurisdiction of a special

12     administration within the service that was in charge of that.

13        Q.   Minutes ago you mentioned a 2nd Administration.  Now, are we

14     really talking about the 6th Administration within the state security

15     department that was in charge of providing the protection of VIP, that it

16     has this specialised duty?

17        A.   I mentioned a second section and I had some other section in

18     mind, but, yes, you are right, we are actually talking about the

19     6th Administration of the state security of the MUP of Serbia.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Mr. Witness, are you aware that after

21     the dismissal of Mr. Stanisic in 1998, were the ranks introduced in the

22     State Security, Service introduced for the first time after the

23     Second World War?

24        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

25        Q.   Do you know that after the departure of Mr. Stanisic, the key

Page 14914

 1     points in the service were filled by members from the public security

 2     service?

 3        A.   Yes, for the most part, that is correct.

 4        Q.   Do you know -- just one moment, please.

 5                           [Defence counsel and accused Simatovic confer]

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, in the speech that you analysed yesterday with my

 8     learned friend, the speech read out by Mr. Simatovic in Kula, there was

 9     mention of 1991 and the 2nd Administration.  Would you agree with me that

10     in 1991, the 2nd Administration did not exist at all in the state

11     security department; is that correct?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the answer.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters have not heard the answer.  Could

15     you please repeat your answer.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, you mentioned your encounter with Captain Dragan in

19     2000, if I'm not mistaken, during the October coup.  Do you know if

20     Captain Dragan took place in these turmoil events that took place in

21     October 2000, and if you know, on whose side was he?

22        A.   As far as I know, I heard that he sided with the forces that were

23     against Milosevic who carried out the coup.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have

25     no further questions.


Page 14915

 1             Thank you, Mr. Dragicevic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it's time to take a break.  Could you give us

 3     an indication as to how much time you would still need, Mr. Jordash?

 4             MR. JORDASH:  25 minutes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  25 minutes.  Then we'll take a break, but before

 6     doing so, Mr. Jordash, the Chamber would be assisted by knowing the last

 7     known address of the witness we talked about earlier, so as to

 8     finalise -- to give follow-up on your oral application.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  A member of my team tried to call him this morning

10     and spoke to somebody in his office and we are waiting for him to call

11     back, so there's instructions to obtain his address.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Could we go briefly into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 14916

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                                [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             We take a break and resume at ten minutes to 11.00 and expect you

11     to finish by quarter past 11.00, Mr. Jordash.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, apologies for the delayed start.

15             Mr. Jordash, are you ready?

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes, thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Jordash:

19        Q.   Mr. Dragicevic, I want to just return to a matter that my learned

20     friend for the Prosecution dealt with yesterday at the close of the day

21     and it's the issue relating to the relationship between Milosevic and

22     Stanisic.  And my learned friend dealt with it generally, or in a general

23     sense at page 14885 of the transcript, and put to you that at line 21:

24             [As read] "We can agree on that basis, i.e., on the basis that

25     Stanisic had kept his position from 1992 until 1998 that whatever their


Page 14917

 1     subjective feelings for each, Milosevic and Stanisic worked together

 2     professionally and effectively."

 3             And my learned friend asked you in a general sense:  "In other

 4     words Milosevic valued and appreciated Stanisic's work."

 5             And you said:  "Well, if you view it that way, yes."

 6             I want to have you clarify that answer as compared to some of the

 7     comments you made in your statement concerning the mistrust between the

 8     two.  And I don't want to deal with it in a general way, I want you to

 9     try to give some concrete examples concerning your view that there was

10     mistrust.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Could we please turn to the witness's statement at

12     D466.

13        Q.   At paragraph 85 where you say:

14             [As read] "I think that Stanisic managed to keep his position

15     because Milosevic was smart enough to keep someone on that position who

16     was good in his job.  Stanisic was from the DB and had a good team."

17             Now, of course it's a legitimate question as to how and why

18     Stanisic kept his job, especially in light of what you say was mistrust

19     between the two.  Could you try to clarify how that mistrust manifested

20     itself from what you observed in the years between 1992 and 1998?  What

21     conversations were you having or what were you observing?  Could you make

22     this as concrete as possible, please.

23        A.   President Milosevic was intelligent enough as a human being and

24     politician to make sure that he did not get rid of individuals who were

25     professionals and dedicated to their work that easily, especially if they

Page 14918

 1     were people who would try to perform any task they were given in the best

 2     possible way.

 3             Let me give you a few examples to illustrate what I've just said

 4     and to support my belief of there having been mistrust on Milosevic's

 5     part vis-a-vis Stanisic.  It was already stated here that the

 6     6th Administration, charged with the protection of VIPs, provided its

 7     services to all leaders and very important persons, VIPs, whenever it was

 8     called upon to do so.  Milosevic changed all that.  Instead of hiring

 9     people from state security, he drew upon people from the Ministry of the

10     Interior and even his personal escort was a policeman.

11             Should I give his name?

12        Q.   Certainly.

13        A.   Senta Milenkovic.

14        Q.   Let me just pause you there.  In relation to other VIPs what was

15     the situation, was it only Milosevic who received security from outside

16     of the state security?

17        A.   That's right, only Milosevic.  No one else.  The

18     6th Administration serviced everybody else.  The second example, on the

19     night when Mr. Stanisic flew to Bosnia in order to obtain from

20     Mr. Radovan Karadzic a document to the effect that he was withdrawing

21     from politics and all the positions he held, the weather was terrible and

22     his life was at risk.  I stayed behind at Uzicka Street villa and I

23     remember that Mr. Holbrooke had already gone back to the American

24     embassy.  Those left behind with me were Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Sainovic and

25     Mr. Milan Milutinovic.

Page 14919

 1             At one point Mr. Milosevic took my arm in his and suggested that

 2     we should take a walk in the garden.  As we were strolling, he asked me

 3     what it was that we also discussed with the Americans, with the CIA at

 4     Langley.  My answer was that I had drawn up a report on this matter and

 5     that the president was given a copy of it.  I said that I had one

 6     objection to make and Milosevic asked me what it was that you can object

 7     with the president of a state.  I said that I drew up the report in one

 8     copy only and that I'd like to have that copy back.

 9        Q.   Sorry, I'm limited in time.  I want to really stay on the focus.

10     What do you mean when you say that Milosevic or what do you mean when you

11     imply that Milosevic appreciated Stanisic's work?  Which work are we

12     talking about?

13        A.   I think that Mr. Milosevic highly appreciated the professional

14     work exhibited by Mr. Stanisic as an intelligence officer, as well as a

15     counter-intelligence, topnotch analyst who had the political flair as

16     well.  After all, he had a degree in political science and was an

17     educated man.

18        Q.   You describe in your statement a cat-and-mouse relationship

19     between Milosevic and Stanisic.  That's at paragraph 70.  What does that

20     mean?

21        A.   Well, at this point I wouldn't be able to tell you who had the

22     role of mouse and who of the cat.  However, there was this constant game

23     of upmanship where Stanisic insisted on concrete issues that he believed

24     he was right about and that needed to be appreciated, and on the other

25     hand the manipulations that politicians are normally given to

Page 14920

 1     engineering.

 2        Q.   At paragraph 72 you discuss the Kula award ceremony and you note

 3     that in the last three sentences:

 4             "There were a lot of people around Milosevic who were against the

 5     DB and he alone was rather distrustful, and perhaps in a way that

 6     celebration was supposed to improve the position of the service."

 7             In which way was that celebration supposed to improve the

 8     position?

 9        A.   Well, there were certainly a great deal of suspicion around at

10     the time.  I can state upon full responsibility that the State Security

11     Service was one of the most respectable institutions in the country, one

12     which was fully aware of the job it was doing and what sort of job it

13     was.  That's something I would not be able to say of other institutions.

14     There was a great deal of resistance to state security on the part of

15     some individuals, it was just the human nature, I don't know.  At any

16     rate, there was a great deal of suspicion.

17        Q.   Which individuals had this distrust, or, sorry, a good deal of

18     resistance?

19        A.   Well, I mean above all the circle of people around

20     President Milosevic, politicians.  I'm not sure about the army.  At any

21     rate, primarily people from the political circle around

22     President Milosevic and from the Socialist Party of Serbia.  And if I may

23     be allowed to explain, my understanding of the ceremony at Kula, I

24     believe that the ceremony was conceived in such a way that Milosevic

25     should be impressed by it, by our intention to create a modern centre and

Page 14921

 1     put together an anti-terrorist unit that would be equal to all similar

 2     units world-wide, a unit that would be bent on fighting international

 3     terrorism.

 4        Q.   Was it significant or not that, as you've said in your statement

 5     at paragraph 84, that the service, according to Stanisic, was not

 6     supposed to interfere with politics?  Was it significant that Stanisic

 7     wasn't a politician?

 8        A.   I think it was one of the main points that I personally agreed

 9     with, if I can be allowed to give my opinion.  To this day, I believe

10     that every service must be outside of politics, though in part I can say

11     that none of the services --

12        Q.   Mr. -- was it significant that Stanisic wasn't a member of the

13     SPS?  Please answer concretely, I'm running out of time.

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   In which way?  From what you observed, what you saw, what you

16     heard.

17        A.   Well, if you don't belong to a single political party then you'll

18     allow me to say then you enjoy a bit more freedom than everybody else in

19     doing your job concretely.  If you are tied to a party, then you are

20     bound by the decisions of the party leadership.  I had been a member of

21     the Yugoslav League of Communists, when the party ceased to exist, I did

22     not join another and have not in fact to this day.

23        Q.   Okay.  Just to finish off Kula award issue, did you receive an

24     award?

25        A.   Yes, I did.  A wrist-watch.

Page 14922

 1        Q.   What for?  Why?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know.  If you view the footage from Kula, I

 3     can't -- I don't know if you heard -- if you were able to hear what was

 4     being said there but when my name was read out, Mr. Stanisic asked and

 5     what was it that you got this award for.

 6        Q.   Were you a member of the anti-terrorist unit?

 7        A.   No, no, I wasn't.  Perhaps it was for my contribution to the

 8     organisation.  I don't know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Kosovo.  We heard that -- or you testified that

10     the US State Department had designated the KLA as a terrorist

11     organisation.  Now, putting aside the United States designation, are you

12     able to testify as to why the state security or Stanisic considered the

13     KLA at that point in time to be a terrorist organisation?  What you saw

14     and what you heard is what I'm interested in.

15        A.   I did not have firsthand experience because I did not go to

16     Kosovo to be able to witness specific activities and KLA actions, but on

17     TV you were able to see fully-armed units with full gear who were engaged

18     in terrorist activities, attacks on the civilian population, and attempts

19     to cleanse huge areas of Kosovo of any Serbs whilst at the same time

20     committing atrocities.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Can I have, please, on the screen 1D05246.

22        Q.   And this is a visit of the CIA to, I think, Belgrade.  Perhaps

23     you can assist with this.

24        A.   Yes, it's the visit to Belgrade.

25        Q.   In May of 1996?

Page 14923

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Were you part of this visit and meeting of intelligence services?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go, please, to page 1 -- to page 4 of the

 5     B/C/S and page 1D082206 of the English.  Perhaps this shouldn't -- this

 6     should be under seal.  There are some names in it which ought not to be

 7     disclosed.

 8        Q.   I only want to go to this page because it just contextualises the

 9     report and deals with the visit of the, as you can see there on the

10     screen, the visit of a respective person from the CIA.  And then if we

11     move over to the B/C/S page 7 and 1D082209 of the English, and it's a

12     report there of what Stanisic is reporting to the CIA in 1996.  And you

13     can see there Jovica Stanisic said that:

14             [As read] "He just returned from Pristina so he was in a position

15     to provide information on the merit.  Having given a short description of

16     the terrorist actions in Decani, Stemunje [phoen], Peja and the village

17     of Sipolje near Kosovska Mitrovica, he said that these are synchronised

18     acts of Albanian extremists, which is collaborated [sic] by the fact that

19     they occurred within the time interval of only about 40 minutes.  He said

20     that it would be a dangerous task to destabilise the local area, Serbia,

21     and the entire country."

22             Then Stanisic goes on to, during this meeting, disclose the names

23     of various officials who in his view the instigators of these crimes and

24     then later on refers to the so-called president of Kosovo's government in

25     exile Bujar Bukoshi.  Were you present when Stanisic was reporting

Page 14924

 1     terrorist actions to the CIA?

 2        A.   Yes.  In contact with a representative of the CIA in Belgrade, we

 3     furnished information and evidence in support of our statements that such

 4     activities were indeed happening in Kosovo.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go over to the next page, please.  That's

 6     page, I think, 8 of the B/C/S and 1D082210.  And again we won't refer to

 7     the name, but you can see halfway down the page in the English there's a

 8     name mentioned, senior member of the CIA, "... reiterated that they are

 9     concerned about the possibility of an escalation of terrorism in Kosovo,

10     the outbreak of conflict that would lead to armed conflicts and the

11     intervention of the Yugoslav Army ... And especially the expansion of the

12     crisis to neighbouring countries.  In this context, he singled out

13     Macedonia and predicated that the arrival of hundreds of thousands of

14     Albanian refugees could destabilise the situation in that country.

15     Jovica Stanisic agreed with these findings and pointed out that a

16     potential armed rebellion in Kosovo and Metohija, Albanians would have no

17     chance and besides they are not ready for war."

18             Were you there during that discussion when that particular

19     American CIA agent agreed with the assessment of an escalation of

20     terrorism in Kosovo?  You still with us?

21        A.   Yes, yes, I am.

22        Q.   Were you there during this discussion?

23        A.   I paused because you were talking.  Yes, I was.

24        Q.   And can you recall what was said about the concerns of the

25     intervention of the Yugoslav Army into the conflict or into the

Page 14925

 1     situation?

 2        A.   Well, the American side was particularly concerned or worried by

 3     the Army of Yugoslavia.  Were there to be a crisis or military conflicts

 4     as Mr. Stanisic said, the ethnic Albanians would not stand a chance but

 5     that would, at the same time, expose the civilian population to a great

 6     deal of suffering.  The conflict would probably spill over to the

 7     territory of the Republic of Macedonia and there were conflicts brewing

 8     in that part of Greece which is known as --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

10             MR. JORDASH:

11        Q.   Which part of Greece, what was the name of the --

12        A.   Chameria [In English] The northern part.

13        Q.   To wrap up this subject, let's go back to your statement in

14     paragraph 87 and 88 you discuss there Stanisic and his conflict with

15     Milosevic over the issue.  Can you just in two sentences or three

16     sentences just summarise the core of that conflict over Kosovo, please.

17        A.   After the initial events, Milosevic opted for the use of force

18     and this was the main reason why he came into conflict with Mr. Stanisic.

19     Mr. Stanisic had contacts with certain leaders of the Kosovo Albanians

20     and I still fully agree with his views.  I think he was right.  It was

21     possible through -- to solve the crisis through negotiations and

22     discussions.

23        Q.   How often was Stanisic leading with Kosovan Albanian leaders at

24     the time?

25        A.   I don't know that.  I wasn't there at the time.


Page 14926

 1        Q.   Did Stanisic meet with any American officials in Belgrade

 2     concerning the issue about how to resolve the Kosovan crisis or how to

 3     prevent it escalating?

 4        A.   Almost every meeting Mr. Stanisic had with representatives of the

 5     American administration had to do with the crisis in Kosovo, and with how

 6     to resolve the crisis in the best possible way.

 7        Q.   Over which period of time?

 8        A.   I think that it applied to the early days from the first

 9     indications of the conflict in Kosovo through to the end of Stanisic's

10     term of office.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Could we just go into private session for a moment,

12     please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14             MR. JORDASH:  I'm almost finished, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14927

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.


Page 14928

 1             MR. JORDASH:

 2        Q.   Just to clarify one final issue which I don't think we've really

 3     specified in the type of detail that I hope we can.  The issue of force.

 4     You just said that Milosevic wanted to use force, on the other hand we've

 5     seen documents which show that the JSO was involved in the use of force.

 6     Could you try to clarify what the distinction was between the approach

 7     Stanisic wanted to take in relation to force and the approach that

 8     Milosevic wanted to take in relation to force?

 9        A.   I cannot comment on Milosevic's approach to this notion because

10     I'm not fully aware of what he was thinking.  I can only speak about

11     Mr. Stanisic's approach.  It was based on the principle of pure

12     anti-terrorist combat, which is the principle applied by each and every

13     country in the world.  That means, in other words, to annihilate the

14     terrorists and to proceed thereafter with political negotiations with a

15     view to finding a peaceful solution.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, were there any political murders that

17     you are aware of during Stanisic's reign as chief of the state security,

18     and the second question was:  Was there any after he resigned?

19        A.   I know for sure, because I was in the service at the time, that

20     while Mr. Stanisic was chief of the State Security Service there were no

21     murders of that kind.  After his departure and after General Markovic was

22     installed in that position, assassinations started taking place in

23     Belgrade.

24        Q.   Do you know what Stanisic's relationship was like with Djindjic

25     before his unfortunate murder?

Page 14929

 1             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, this doesn't arise from cross.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Well, in our submission, it does.  The Prosecution

 4     have tried to link through this case in general Stanisic with political

 5     or the activities of the JSO after his resignation --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think the issue is Mr. Farr says it doesn't

 7     arise from cross-examination, not that it may not be relevant in the case

 8     as such.  Could you indicate where this matter was touched upon in cross?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, there was a discussion between my learned

10     friend and the witness concerning Djindjic and the timing of this

11     witness's resignation and --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the objection is denied.  Please proceed.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   This is my last question --

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   This is my last question, could you just answer that question:

17     Do you know what the relationship was like between Stanisic and Djindjic?

18        A.   I believe that they had an extremely good relationship.

19        Q.   Why do you believe that?

20        A.   On several occasions I saw Mr. Djindjic in the office of

21     Mr. Stanisic.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you,

23     Mr. Witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

25             Any need for further questions.


Page 14930

 1             MR. FARR:  I would have just one matter briefly, Your Honour, if

 2     I may.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

 4                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Farr:

 5        Q.   Sir, during cross-examination by Mr. Petrovic you were asked

 6     whether you were aware that after the dismissal of Mr. Stanisic in 1998

 7     ranks were introduced in the State Security Service for the first time

 8     after the Second World War.  And you said, "Yes, I am aware of that."

 9     When we watched the Kula video yesterday we saw Zika Ivanovic and

10     Radojica Bozovic both being introduced as colonels, and then following

11     that in a portion of the video that we didn't watch, a number of other

12     men are introduced as colonels, there are then lieutenant-colonels,

13     captains, and so on down the ranks.  Can you explain, I guess, your

14     answer that there were no ranks in light of that?

15        A.   I can tell you that the special operations unit was a military

16     unit and it had ranks.  Members of the State Security Service, however,

17     were people in civilian clothes and we didn't have any ranks.  I

18     personally was against that.  We just had titles.

19        Q.   So ranks existed in the JSO but not in the rest of the DB; is

20     that your evidence?

21        A.   Correct.

22             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, at this time I would renew my motion for

23     the admission of P -- sorry, of 65 ter 4777.1.  That's the document that

24     the Chamber ruled on immediately before the break, and I'm renewing my

25     motion because I believe circumstances have changed.  The issue of Kosovo

Page 14931

 1     was explored quite extensively and I would just call the Chamber's

 2     attention to one answer in particular, page 42, beginning at line 2, the

 3     witness was asked about Mr. Stanisic's approach in relation to force, he

 4     said:

 5             "It was based on the principle of pure anti-terrorist combat

 6     which is the principle applied by each and every country in the world.

 7     That means, in other words, to annihilate the terrorists and to proceed

 8     thereafter what political negotiations with a view to finding peaceful

 9     solutions."

10             In my submission, that makes the admission of 4777.1, as

11     impeachment, appropriate.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Can I just briefly take instructions, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14                           [Defence counsel and accused Stanisic confer]

15             MR. JORDASH:  We would remove our objection if I can ask one more

16     question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  There's an offer there, but Mr. Petrovic, would you

18     take -- would you also have one question and then --

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I still stand by to

20     everything I said and I really cannot discern any change in the situation

21     based on Mr. Jordash's questions.  His questions can be formulated in the

22     same way like Mr. Farr's questions, so this document is not helpful at

23     all.  It will remain in evidence and it will be the subject of your

24     evaluation.

25             MR. FARR:  And Your Honour, just to be clear, I'm offering it for


Page 14932

 1     the same person, for impeachment only.  I'm not offering it as a basis

 2     for conviction.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't hear any objection to Mr. Jordash asking an

 4     additional question.  Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 6                           Further re-examination by Mr. Jordash:

 7        Q.   Staying with the subject of Kosovo, do you know anything about

 8     Al-Qaeda in relation to Kosovo?

 9        A.   No.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is withdrawn, I do understand,

12     Mr. Jordash.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber denies the objections still standing as

15     expressed by Mr. Petrovic and will admit into evidence the document and

16     has taken notice of the Prosecution telling us that it is still seeking

17     admission for impeachment purposes at this moment.

18             Mr. Jordash.

19             MR. JORDASH:  There was one issue from yesterday which was the

20     47th extended session of the --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If we could please perhaps first deal with this one

22     or is there any ...?

23             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, no, I apologise.  I jumped the gun.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Because we have to do all the formalities for

25     admitting it into evidence.  Madam Registrar, the number of the document


Page 14933

 1     which is, let me have a look --

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  4777.1, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  P3046, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any need to have it under seal?

 6             MR. FARR:  Not that I am aware of, but I would prefer to check

 7     that just to be sure, so perhaps provisionally under seal.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P3046 is admitted provisionally under seal,

 9     Mr. Farr, could we hear from you say within the next 24 or 48 hours.

10             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Jordash.

12             MR. JORDASH:  We do not object to the Prosecution tendering the

13     65 ter 6303 which is the 47th extended session of the FRY Supreme Defence

14     Council.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We have no objection either,

16     Your Honours.

17             MR. FARR:  And, Your Honour, for the record we have uploaded the

18     portions only the portions that we rely on that we indicated to the

19     Defence counsel yesterday as 6303.1.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If there would be any need for further

21     contextualization to have other portions we'll hear from you, but may I

22     take it that you accept this limitation at this moment.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 6303.1 would receive

25     number ...?

Page 14934

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P3047, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And any need to have it under seal?

 3             MR. FARR:  Again, Your Honour, I'd prefer to check.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P3047 is admitted provisionally under seal.  Same

 5     time-limit applies, Mr. Farr.

 6             Is there any other matter in relation to documents used or ...?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  There is, will but there's a long list I don't

 8     think there's any need to detain the --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we don't need to keep the witness for that

10     purpose.

11             Mr. Dragicevic, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank

12     you very much for coming to The Hague and for answering the questions

13     that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench.  And I wish you a

14     safe return home.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  As matters stand now we have no witness for next

17     week, Mr. Jordash?

18             MR. JORDASH:  No, I am, I guess, hoping that the witness who is

19     scheduled next may avoid the -- may come of his own volition.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you would say then this might resolve the

21     problem of having no witness.  There is no alternative scenario so that

22     we could use our time in court?

23             MR. JORDASH:  The alternative scenario is the UN personnel who --

24     I forget his, DST-069, who again is subject to -- not again, who is

25     presently subject to a subpoena, we are trying to contact his ministry

Page 14935

 1     again in the hope that he will not require a service of it, but will

 2     actually, again, get on a plane and be here for next week.  But apart

 3     from that, I think we have run out of witnesses.  I think we have some --

 4     one or two, I think, outstanding 92 bis applications and then we have our

 5     proposed expert for the Mladic diaries, and also a prominent witness from

 6     England who we've indicated to the court that we wish to apply to have

 7     them attend out of turn and probably during or after the Simatovic case,

 8     so that's the situation.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because we have some uncertainties here now,

10     and of course this raises another question that is where the Simatovic

11     stands in preparing its case presentation.  I mean, we have at least one

12     where you applied to be able to call the witness after the Simatovic

13     Defence had started.  And of course, we urged the Simatovic Defence to

14     prepare for the start of their case presentation.  Under the present

15     circumstance, of course, we cannot be sure that we are not losing a lot

16     of time up until the moment when you have presented your last witness,

17     so, therefore, the Chamber is even more -- more than it was before

18     interested in where the Simatovic Defence stands as far as the

19     preparation of their case presentation is concerned.  Yes, Mr. Jordash.

20             MR. JORDASH:  May I just indicate in relation to the two

21     outstanding witnesses, DST-060 and DST-069, those that we -- if they were

22     here we could call, it may well be that we can finish those in three

23     days.  I'm speculating, but certainly in relation to DST-060, we do not

24     intend to spend more than 45 minutes in addition to his 92 ter statement,

25     if he arrives here.  And in relation to DST-069, he has a voluminous

Page 14936

 1     transcript and I suspect that he is not going to be the most contentious

 2     of witnesses to say the least.  So it may well be that if we lose next

 3     week, we could still, in substance, finish the Stanisic Defence the week

 4     after.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If the witnesses are here.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that's --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's, of course, what I'm inquiring about, where

 8     the Simatovic stands in preparing for their case presentation.  I mean,

 9     if they would not appear, if we would have another empty week and another

10     empty week, of course we would have to seriously consider to see whether

11     the remaining witnesses, once they appear, that they could be heard even

12     if that would be after the start of the Simatovic Defence case

13     presentation.

14             MR. JORDASH:  We would have no objection to whatever keeps the

15     trial moving, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course I'm not anticipating on any

17     decisions yet, but I'm just inquiring in how we can proceed without

18     losing time.  And that's the reason why I address the Simatovic Defence

19     at this moment where we earlier urged them to seriously prepare for their

20     case presentation, where we stand and what could be done if the situation

21     would arise that we can't hear any Stanisic evidence.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our Defence team are

23     doing our best to get ready for starting our case.  You are aware of our

24     problems that date back to the earlier period.  However, we believe that

25     we can accommodate the Trial Chamber with their intention to avoid

Page 14937

 1     wasting time, or rather, wasting weeks while we wait for specific

 2     witnesses.

 3             I think that within the next two weeks it will be unrealistic to

 4     expect us to call our first witness.  It would also be useful and

 5     beneficial to us if we were not on stand-by next week in anticipation of

 6     a possible appearance of a witness which would give us some spare time to

 7     prepare ourselves better for our Defence case and the examination of our

 8     first witness.  Therefore, at this point I think it is not realistic to

 9     expect us to begin our examination of witnesses before the week starting

10     on the 28th, specifically because certain unpredicted things happened in

11     the meantime, we expect a 92 bis witness to appear plus another two

12     witnesses, and we counted upon on that to happen within the next two

13     weeks.  And I also think that in that category is the undefined status of

14     a protected witness, an OTP witness, for whom the Stanisic Defence team

15     requested to be recalled and examined in relation to the Mladic diary.

16             So before the 28th we are technically not in a position to start

17     calling our witnesses.  However, it would be beneficial to us to know if

18     there were no witnesses in the next two weeks, I, myself, and my

19     colleagues have some free time to become and get prepared better.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you are on your feet.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.  On the 3rd of November

22     we sent an e-mail to the attention of the Simatovic Defence requesting

23     information about the order for the first five witnesses.  To the best of

24     my knowledge we didn't receive a response.  I think that that would be

25     very helpful to our preparation if we could receive that.

Page 14938

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You are saying you are just asking for the order,

 2     not the date on which --

 3             MS. MARCUS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I would add one question to that.  You are talking

 5     about 92 bis witnesses.  Have statements been taken and are they on paper

 6     at this moment, Mr. Bakrac?

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I wasn't precise

 8     enough.  I was not referring to our 92 bis witnesses, but rather the

 9     witnesses called by the Stanisic Defence and it was decided today not to

10     recall them for cross-examination.  All these circumstances have improved

11     our situation in terms of our accelerating our work.

12             Now, as regards to the remark raised by Ms. Marcus, it is no

13     problem, we see no problem for us to send in the shortest possible time

14     the list of witnesses starting from the 28th onwards until the recess

15     begins.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say you see no problem to send in the

17     shortest possible time.  What is the shortest possible time?  Is that

18     this week, is that Monday, Tuesday?  I'd like to have concrete

19     information.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we were not working

21     next week and if my colleague and I can go on the required trips in the

22     field, I think that at the beginning of the week after we can give you

23     the list of witnesses that we intend to start with.  And besides we have

24     no objection to the Mladic's diary expert be examined either during or

25     after our case, but if you allow me, I would like to express our opinion

Page 14939

 1     with regard to the Prosecution witness.

 2             Now, for clarity, I would kindly ask for us to go to a private

 3     session for a minute.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We will do that, but first, what Ms. Marcus is

 5     asking is the order of the first five witnesses.  So we start with A,

 6     then B, C, D, E.  Would that really need another ten days?  I mean, they

 7     can start inquiring in the background of those witnesses, they can see

 8     whether they have testified before, what is known about them, so as to

 9     start the preparation.  I take it that's what you want?

10             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  She is not asking for the full list at this moment,

12     but at least to know in which order the first five will appear.  Is there

13     any way you can provide that earlier than in ten days from now?

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, tomorrow is Friday and

15     if we are not working next week I'm going to check on Monday already with

16     the witnesses that we intend to call according to certain sequence,

17     whether they are able to come over and after that we can provide

18     Ms. Marcus with a list.  But before that we have to check all the

19     logistical issues involved and whether all these witnesses are really

20     ready to travel and come to The Hague.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One -- I can imagine that even if it's not certain

22     yet whether finally that order would be followed, Ms. Marcus would be

23     happy to receive in which order you are going to ask these witnesses to

24     come and then it may well be that one is not available or another one is

25     not available, but at least that you have some guidance as to where to


Page 14940

 1     start.  Ms. Marcus, is that --

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour, we need to know, perhaps in the

 3     way that the Stanisic Defence did.  They put in order, at times that

 4     order had to be changed, we tried to be flexible.  But we would like to

 5     see the order that you anticipate as soon as possible, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When could you provide what you have at this moment

 7     on your mind as the order you would wish -- the order in which you would

 8     wish the witnesses to appear?  Could you already provide Ms. Marcus with

 9     that?

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, if it is

11     acceptable for Ms. Marcus we can have it ready for her on Monday.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, would that assist?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked for us to go

16     briefly to a private session, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14941

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Any other matters?  Any other matter to be raised?

13             MR. JORDASH:  Only seeking some guidance.  We received, I think,

14     an e-mail in informal communication from the Chamber concerning the

15     expectation that we would not, I think, seek to admit -- apologies if I

16     don't get this completely accurate, but I think the gist of it was that

17     we shouldn't seek to admit evidence during the Simatovic case or

18     subsequently that we ought to have admitted during our case.  The

19     position is this:  That we considered long and hard about filing another

20     application for an adjournment because we have received a huge amount of

21     disclosure over the last six weeks, I think in excess of 100.000 pages.

22     There is, before the Prosecution jump up, no criticism of the

23     Prosecution, it's just 66(B) requests and material from other cases and

24     so on.  Having considered whether to an apply for an adjournment, we took

25     the view that the better approach, especially bearing in mind


Page 14942

 1     Mr. Stanisic's health, was to review that material during our own case

 2     and continue reviewing it during the Simatovic case and then seek to have

 3     admitted any evidence we discover in that -- discover from that

 4     disclosure on perhaps an on-going basis, which doesn't mean to say that

 5     we'll be bombarding the Chamber with applications.  We'll obviously do it

 6     in a sensible way, but we would hope that Your Honour would appreciate

 7     that way of proceeding rather than having to deal with another

 8     application to adjourn.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are putting a marker here to say where the

10     Chamber expects you not to start presenting evidence once you have

11     finished, apart from that one exception of course, I hint that the

12     possibility that there may be other instances, although we'd really like

13     to not to seek you to go on presenting your case, that you say in view of

14     disclosure over the last six weeks, not blaming the Prosecution, which of

15     course also raises a question whether all these requests for this

16     material to be disclosed was timely done, but let's not discuss it at

17     this moment but I just put that.  You put a marker here and say that if

18     that material triggers any need to call any further evidence, we might

19     ask for that.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.  I'm not in any

22     way anticipating on how we would react to that, but it's clear that you

23     would rather not have your hands bound by that guidance of the Chamber in

24     view of this specific material, and whether your hands are still bound or

25     not will be decided once we have received any application in this

Page 14943

 1     respect.  And you already indicate that such applications would mainly

 2     rely on recently disclosed material.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, we intend to file bar table motions in the

 4     next - we hope - in the next two weeks in relation to our 65 ter list.

 5     It's material which hasn't as yet made it on there that we are concerned

 6     about.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll see how matters develop.  I'm not

 8     granting anything in any way at this moment, any application will be

 9     seriously considered by the Chamber, and we have given our main ideas on

10     this matter in the earlier communication with the Defence.  That is, no

11     new evidence after, that's our main, and you say we might nevertheless

12     apply for specific material to take a different approach.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's on the record.

15             Nothing else?  Then -- yes, Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:  To avoid being in trouble with my Case Manager, may

17     I request to tender certain documents, please, in relation to this

18     witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I asked earlier whether there was anything

20     outstanding and then I gained the impression that there was not, but that

21     I must have wrongly understood the signals and there was another matter

22     where it may be that Mr. Bakrac may have misunderstood, he said about two

23     witnesses that you indicated this morning that they would not need to be

24     called for cross-examination.  As a matter of fact, I understood your

25     message to be that they would not be called at all.

Page 14944

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  All right.  That's hereby then corrected as well.

 3     The documents, Mr. Jordash.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  There is a long list, so I don't know if

 5     Your Honour want to do it now or we can send Your Honours an e-mail with

 6     the designation and the agreement between us and the Prosecution and the

 7     disagreement.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think numbers have been provisionally assigned.  I

 9     think I indicated that earlier.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that not all the documents were

12     covered by the previous provisional assignment of numbers.  For that

13     reason, I think it would be best that you prepare it together with

14     Madam Registrar and of course it should then be -- a decision should be

15     pronounced in open court but we'll do that as soon as we resume and even

16     a possibility I think there is a -- there is a housekeeping session

17     announced, we might deal with it at that housekeeping session.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  There's one further issue,

19     sorry.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. JORDASH:  It's the public summary for DST-036.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Should I.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are able to read it, let's have that done.

25             MR. JORDASH:  The witness stated that he was from -- sorry, the

Page 14945

 1     witness stated that from 1975 to 1979 he worked for the state security of

 2     the Republic of Serbia.  In 1985, the witness started working for the

 3     federal State Security Service.  In late 1992, the witness became special

 4     advisor to the chief of the service before progressing to the head of the

 5     9th Administration.  In 1997 he became the assistant chief of the DB.

 6             The witness testified that he met with representatives of foreign

 7     services and reported back to Mr. Stanisic.  If necessary, Stanisic would

 8     also meet with the representatives.  During the time that Stanisic was

 9     chief, the service raised its contacts with foreign services from around

10     40 to around 60 states.  The situation deteriorated once Stanisic was

11     fired in 1998.

12             The witness described meeting a number of people from the CIA.

13     The first contact between Stanisic and the CIA was secret and took place

14     in early 1992.  The witness was also present.  They discussed how to

15     resolve certain situations and how to assist the CIA in collecting

16     information.

17             The policy of the service was to emphasise contact and

18     co-operation with other countries.  Following the signing of the peace

19     agreement in Dayton, the witness together with Stanisic went to Zagreb to

20     discuss the implementation of the Dayton Accords.

21             The witness describes the hostage crisis that occurred in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1995 where United Nations personnel were captured

23     and used as human shields to forestall NATO attacks.  The accused

24     Stanisic was responsible for the negotiations with the Republika Srpska

25     state leadership.  The negotiations succeeded and in early June of 1995,

Page 14946

 1     the first convoy was taken out of Bosnia and into Serbia.  Over 450

 2     soldiers were eventually freed and transferred into safety.

 3             The witness also described the accused Stanisic and the

 4     State Security Service's participation in the liberation of the French

 5     pilots captured in Republika Srpska in the second half of 1995.  Stanisic

 6     also participated in the liberation of a journalist, David Rohde from

 7     Christian Science Monitor.  The witness also testified to participating

 8     in secret operations together with the CIA and representatives of the

 9     FRY Ministry of Foreign Affairs in locating or searching for potential

10     mass graves in Eastern Bosnia.

11             The witness also stated that in 1996, the State Security of

12     Serbia detained Erdemovic for war crimes and arranged his delivery to

13     The Hague Tribunal.  The witness escorted Erdemovic to The Hague.  The

14     witness believed that Milosevic's attitude toward the

15     State Security Service and Stanisic was characterised by mistrust.  The

16     witness testified to the relationship between Stanisic and Milosevic.

17     The State Security of Serbia was not responsible for Milosevic's

18     service -- sorry, security.

19             Finally, the witness was in charge of the protocol in the Kula

20     ceremony of 1997.  He believed that the point of the ceremony was to show

21     Milosevic that they had a modern unit to fight against terrorism and to

22     improve the position of the state security in Milosevic's eyes.

23     According to the witness, the accused Stanisic was a professional who did

24     not belong to any political party.  He directed the work of the service

25     towards combating nationalism and did not express discriminatory

Page 14947

 1     behaviour within his role.  Stanisic insisted that rules, especially

 2     procedure regarding obtaining approvals for measures such as phone

 3     tapping, be obeyed.  The witness believed the direct cause of Stanisic's

 4     dismissal was a clash with Milosevic regarding the approach to the

 5     Kosovan crisis.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

 7             Then we adjourn and we'll -- the date I announce that we'll

 8     resume would be the Tuesday, the 15th of November at quarter past 2.00 in

 9     the afternoon, but I already add to that that there's a fair chance that

10     we'll not resume on that date because there will be no witnesses.  And

11     then we'll inform the parties and the public after having heard from

12     Mr. Jordash when we actually will resume.

13             MR. JORDASH:  I shall send an e-mail as soon as my consultant has

14     met with the witness.  She is waiting for his call.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

16             We stand adjourned.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.12 p.m.

18                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

19                           November, 2011 at 2.15 p.m.