Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15578

 1                           Tuesday, 13 December 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Stanisic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is

10     IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Mr. Jordash, I was informed that you wanted to raise a few

13     matters.  I suggest that we first go through my agenda and to the extent

14     I've not dealt with the matters that you in addition to that have an

15     opportunity to raise any matter.

16             The first one is the absence of Mr. Stanisic.  Mr. Stanisic is

17     not present in court.  We have received a -- the paperwork attached to

18     that in which it is confirmed by the nurse that she has observed symptoms

19     which are such that she considers -- they support that Mr. Stanisic will

20     not be in such a condition that he could appear in court.

21             Mr. Jordash, of course the Chamber wonders whether any further

22     details are known, whether it's related to already known symptoms or not,

23     and if you would prefer to go into private session, we would do so.

24             MR. JORDASH:  I -- I don't know any further details or precise

25     symptoms.  What I do know is that Mr. Martin spoke to him, and he sounded

Page 15579

 1     extremely weak and disengaged, and with Your Honours' leave, I would ask

 2     that a report dealing with the current situation be compelled as soon as

 3     possible so that we might know the answers to Your Honour's query.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll consider that.  Of course we are

 5     expecting a report anyhow this Friday from the reporting medical officer,

 6     but if there's any other matter, we will see if there is any urgency of

 7     receiving any report before Friday.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  I only ask because Mr. Martin -- I didn't

 9     speak to him, but Mr. Martin was concerned.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  And then the nurse also observed and one

11     of the questions, something about the time the reconvalescence would take

12     and she considered, although, of course, she's not a doctor, but

13     nevertheless the nurse considered that it would take some time.

14             We'll further try to receive relevant information.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  And perhaps I should indicate, Your Honours,

16     that Mr. Stanisic is content with the proceedings continuing.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We saw that he has waived his right.  That was

18     the second part of my observation.  He waived his right to be present in

19     court and has confirmed this in writing.

20             We will then see how this matter develops.

21             Mr. Jordash, of course the videolink option is always still open

22     even if only passive, if you understand what I mean, to follow the

23     proceedings if he doesn't want to actively participate in it.  Not to say

24     that his condition allows him to do that, but just to remind you that

25     that facility is always available.

Page 15580

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.  Mr. Martin informs me that he could

 2     barely have a conversation with him, so we'll see.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the next item on my agenda, the Chamber allows

 4     the Stanisic Defence to call Witnesses DST-071 and DST-081 out of turn.

 5     The Simatovic and the Stanisic Defences need to sort out the scheduling

 6     of these witnesses among themselves and then inform the Chamber and the

 7     Prosecution of course.  It's finally the Chamber that will decide whether

 8     it approves your agreement, yes or no.

 9             Then the next item.  Mr. Groome, the Prosecution indicated last

10     week that it would not be ready to begin cross-examining Witness DFS-014

11     this week.  The Chamber nevertheless suggests that we see how far we can

12     get this week.  Might be that we would have to recall the witness after

13     the recess anyhow.  And if necessary, of course, the Prosecution can make

14     a request for postponement at the relevant time.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  And

16     just to add an additional piece of information is that we as yet have to

17     receive translations for the documents that are going to be used with

18     this witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Bakrac, any idea about the translations?

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment.  Please

22     bear with me.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything should be

25     finished today and all the translations are supposed to be uploaded in

Page 15581

 1     the course of the day.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That may be helpful information for Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Although I apologise, Your Honour.

 4     I apologise.  I may have not reacted in time.  If it may be of any

 5     assistance to you, we do not object to the Prosecution's request to

 6     postpone the cross-examination of that witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the Chamber may have other concerns than

 8     the Defence may have in this respect.

 9             No further questions on this matter?  Then I move on.

10             Mr. Bakrac, I'd like to remind you that some of the documents you

11     intend to use with your first witnesses, and that would include the very

12     first witness, the Republic of Serbia has recently requested protective

13     measures.  That was a request dated the 9th of December, which was filed

14     yesterday, the 12th of December, and the parties therefore should ensure

15     that any such documents are provisionally put under seal if marked and

16     that such documents are not to be broadcasted to the public, or if need

17     be, to request private session awaiting a decision on the request by this

18     Chamber.  And have the parties --

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I have understood

20     that, and I would like to add that on the 9th of December, on Friday, we

21     received from the State of Serbia unredacted documents which comprise all

22     the documents that we want to use with the first witness.  My

23     Case Manager uploaded all those documents on Saturday and Sunday, so now

24     in the system you have both redacted and non-redacted versions of the

25     documents which according to us should be under seal.  Those that we wish

Page 15582

 1     to show to the witness, we will request from the Chamber to move into

 2     private session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  The Prosecution

 5     understands the Chamber's direction.  We just want to put on the record

 6     that the Prosecution was notified that the unredacted version has just

 7     become available immediately before the proceedings today just in court.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course much depends -- the Chamber has

 9     no knowledge of that, what the redactions were about, whether it was just

10     names or whether it were larger portions of the documents, but it's on

11     the record that you received notice only today.

12             Then the next one, in relation to the Stanisic Defence's

13     anticipated bar table motions, the Chamber cancels the deadlines given

14     earlier in line with the discussion last week that the parties should

15     find other ways to inform the Chamber of the content of that material,

16     and the Chamber expects a report from the parties in this respect by the

17     13th of January, 2012.

18             MR. JORDASH:  I understand Your Honour's ruling.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We're not -- we're not pushing you to keep

20     those deadlines, but, rather, hear from the parties, which would be the

21     best way to present this, along the lines of the discussion last week.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  We'll --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you will re-read that.

24             MR. JORDASH:  No.  I remember the discussion well, and I've

25     already spoken with Mr. Groome about arranging a meeting, and we're

Page 15583

 1     second, in fact, the first bar table to the Prosecution later today to be

 2     the foundation for that discussion, or at least part of the discussion.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And when such a discussion is ongoing, the Chamber

 4     considered it more wise to -- not to push on the deadlines.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then although unrelated to the situation

 7     of today, Mr. Jordash, which came up after the concerns you expressed

 8     last week about various health matters of Mr. Stanisic, questions have

 9     been put to the reporting medical officer.  He has addressed them in the

10     latest report, and further it is my understanding and the Chamber's

11     understanding that any other issues have been resolved -- resolved

12     between you and OLAD.  Is that correctly understood?

13             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I wouldn't totally agree with the latter

14     point.  We are in the process of trying to resolve the issues with OLAD.

15     They've sent us the second part of Mr. Stanisic's medical records.

16     They're in Dutch, and I'm having them translated and will then address

17     any other points if any other points arise.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But under these circumstances I take it you

19     would agree for the Chamber there's not an immediate necessity for us to

20     follow up on the matter and we leave it for the time being in your hands.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's then clear and on the record.

23             Any other matter, because these were the items I would like to

24     raise.

25             Then is the Simatovic Defence ready to call its first witness,

Page 15584

 1     Mr. Bakrac?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The Simatovic

 3     Defence would like to call up its first witness, DFS-005.  He has not

 4     requested any protective measures.  His name is

 5     Dejan Lukic [as interpreted].

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

 7     courtroom.

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would you leave, I

 9     would like to address the Chamber while the witness is being escorted

10     into the courtroom.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you do so, could you -- the way to pronounce

12     the family name is Dejan Lukic or ...

13             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Lucic.  I'm sorry.

14     Lucic.  It's a bit complicated.  It's a mouthful.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have misunderstood the translation, but I

16     understood it to be pronounced as Lukic, and I always try to pronounce

17     the names of the witnesses correctly.

18             The matter you'd like to raise, Mr. --

19             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say

20     that before today's session, I had a conference with Mr. Weber, and we

21     agreed that as far as the Prosecution is concerned and when it comes to

22     the basic information on this witness, I can lead the witness in order to

23     save time.  Obviously if this is agreeable with the Trial Chamber.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber leaves this usually in the hands

25     of the parties.


Page 15585

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lucic, good afternoon.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, you are required to make a

 5     solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's it.  The other pages are the

 9     other languages, Mr. Lucic.  Please be seated.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           WITNESS:  DEJAN LUCIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lucic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Bakrac.

14     Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

15             You may proceed.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Examination by Mr. Bakrac:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lucic.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   Mr. Lucic, before I start with my examination, I would like to

21     remind you that we speak the same language, which is why I would like you

22     to wait a little after my question for the interpretation to be over and

23     then start answering.  This will avoid overlapping and will save us some

24     time which might be otherwise necessary to repeat your answers.  So I

25     think you would be best advised to look at the screen in front of you,

Page 15586

 1     and when the interpretation is over, then and only then please start

 2     answering.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lucic, I will briefly go through your CV, and you will just

 5     briefly tell me whether the information is correct or not.  Your name is

 6     Dejan and your last name is Lucic.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Please wait until I complete all the information and then you

 9     will say yes or no.  Again I'm trying to save some time.

10             You were born on the 15th November, 1950 in Belgrade.  You lived

11     in Svetozar Markovic Street at number 26.  You completed your elementary

12     education in the same street.  You attended the Aleksa Santic elementary

13     school there.  You graduated from secondary school of economics, and then

14     in 1969, you became a student at the school of political sciences and you

15     graduated in 1983.  Is all that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In 1969, when you enrolled at the school of political sciences,

18     you also started working as a photographer at "Politika" newspaper; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   Not exactly.  I first started working for "Borbin Svet," and that

21     was in 1971, and then after having served in the army, I started working

22     in the newspaper "Zdravo" in 1977.  I worked as a photographer, and later

23     on I became a journalist which started as the youth magazine "Zdravo" and

24     then became a political magazine "Intervju".

25        Q.   And the magazine "Intervju" was published by the "Politika"

Page 15587

 1     publishing house; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When you graduated in 1983 from the school of political sciences,

 4     at that moment you worked as a journalist at "Politika"?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was a part-time student, and I worked as a journalist all

 6     the time.

 7        Q.   Mr. Lucic, you have published 13 books as a journalist and a

 8     geopolitician, and six of them deal with investigative journalism, two

 9     books are about politics, and you also published four fiction novels;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Lucic, is it true that in 1968 you became a member of the

13     League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and why?

14        A.   I was ambitious, and in view of the system as was in place at the

15     time, it was a wise decision not to stick out for the wrong reasons,

16     which is why I became a member of the ruling party so as to be able to

17     find employment in journalism.

18        Q.   When you say the ruling party, do you also mean that that was the

19     only party in existence at the time in the former Yugoslavia?

20        A.   That was the only political party, because the system was a

21     socialist -- or, rather, para-Communist system.

22        Q.   Mr. Lucic, in 1990, in the month of April, you became a member of

23     the Serbian Renewal Movement, which was a very strong opposition party.

24     Did you then abandon your membership in the League of Communists of

25     Yugoslavia, or did it happen even before that?

Page 15588

 1        A.   I stopped being a member of the League of Communists as soon as I

 2     enrolled at the school of political sciences, because I had realized that

 3     the membership in the party could not provide me with the social mobility

 4     that I sought.  The state that we lived in had a lot of political files,

 5     and the stitum [as interpreted] was aware of the fact that I had been

 6     born in an anti-Communist family.

 7        Q.   Mr. Lucic, in April 1990, you became a member of the

 8     Serbian Renewal Movement.  Could you please tell us first something about

 9     that party.  What was its agenda?  Just briefly, please.

10        A.   The Serbian Renewal Movement, which was led at the time and is

11     still led by Vuk Draskovic, who is well known in Serbia as a novelist, as

12     a writer, was a party which I perceived as a party that would change the

13     position of the Serbian people in Yugoslavia.  The -- the slogan that was

14     very popular in the state under the Communist rule was a weak Serbia, a

15     strong Yugoslavia.

16        Q.   Mr. Lucic, my time is really very limited, which is why I would

17     like to focus on the issues of some significance to me.

18             When you entered or when you became a member of the

19     Serbian Renewal Movement, which was the strongest opposition party to

20     Milosevic's regime, what was your position in the party?

21        A.   I had already made a name for myself as a journalist and as a

22     novelist, and since I was a native of Belgrade, which means I was a

23     resident of the capital of Yugoslavia, and many generations before me

24     were also residents of Belgrade, I was appointed the president of the

25     initiative board of the SPO or the Serbian Renewal Movement.  That was in

Page 15589

 1     April 1990.  And then if my memory serves me well, that became official

 2     in October of the same year.

 3        Q.   In October which year?  When you say in October 1990, that's when

 4     it became official; right?  So in October 1990, what was the official

 5     position you held in the SPO?

 6        A.   I became president of the Belgrade board of the SPO and already

 7     at that time it had about 40.000 members.

 8        Q.   For the sake of comparison, do you know what the membership of

 9     the Democratic Party was, for example, at the same time, October 1990?

10        A.   The Democratic Party that is ruling our country at this point in

11     time in that period had only 20.000 members in all of Serbia.  So my

12     Belgrade board was two times stronger than that.

13        Q.   Mr. Lucic, can you tell us who your closest associates were in

14     the Belgrade board of the SPO?

15        A.   My closest associates were Raka Zivkovic, a lawyer.  He comes

16     from a well-known anti-Communist family.  Then a US citizen, an ethnic

17     Serb, Milos Prica.  He was my vice-president, as well as Raka Zivkovic as

18     well.  My political advisor was Aleksandar Pavic.  I thought that he was

19     a US citizen too.  He had a degree in political science that he had

20     received from the University of Berkeley, and his average grade was 9.7.

21        Q.   Mr. Lucic, now I would just like to ask you for the transcript to

22     give the names once again of your vice-presidents.  So Zivkovic?

23        A.   Raka Zivkovic, also Milos Prica.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now it's fine.  Mr. Witness, starting from December

25     1990, I showed you a series of documents starting from December 1990.


Page 15590

 1     That's what I did during our proofing, and these documents all the --

 2     went all the way up to the end of 1991.  Isn't that right?

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

 4     move into private session, because I would like to say something by way

 5     of comment regarding these documents, and I'd actually like to call up

 6     the first document already.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15591











11 Pages 15591-15616 redacted. Private session.
















Page 15617

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.


Page 15618

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Lucic, before the break we were saying that Mr. Snedden had

 6     warned you about the possibility of repression if you win.  Were you

 7     aware of any of his business dealings at the time apart from the

 8     political party work?

 9        A.   I know that he had a plane and that he was making money that way,

10     as he was chartering it to those who were interested.

11        Q.   Do you know when Mr. Snedden, towards the end of 1990, in

12     December to be precise, had some problems with that aeroplane?

13        A.   Yes, he did have problems with unpaid airport taxes, because he

14     did not observe procedure, and he did not pay.

15        Q.   Do you know whether at some point in time his aeroplane was

16     checked and, if so, do you know by who?

17        A.   I think that the airport police or customs checked his plane and

18     that they seized his plane or did not allow it to fly anyway.

19        Q.   From that point of view, did Mr. Snedden address

20     Mr. Pavic [Realtime transcript read in error "Pavkovic"] or you asking

21     you for help?

22        A.   Yes.  I directed him to my vice-president, who was Raka Zivkovic,

23     a very well-known lawyer, and I thought that that was a legal problem

24     that would best be solved in that way.  I thought that -- that we should

25     help each other out like the Three Musketeers.

Page 15619

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.  There

 2     was a mistake with the last name.

 3        Q.   I asked whether Mr. Snedden had addressed you or Mr. Pavic and

 4     the transcript says "Pavkovic".  Did you mean Mr. Pavic?

 5        A.   Aleksandar Pavic.  Pavkovic is a general.

 6        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let us show a document now.  2D407.  Actually, let us

 7     look at it without broadcasting it to the public, and I'd be interested

 8     in paragraph 2.

 9             Please take a look at the last paragraph and tell me whether that

10     was the situation that we discussed a moment ago.  So this is what the

11     last paragraph says -- actually, in the previous paragraph the problems

12     that Daniel Snedden has with his plane are referred to, and the plane was

13     searched, and it was seized, and then in the also paragraph it says:

14              "Pavic responded he should be exceptionally careful because this

15     might be some sort of trap and instructed Snedden to turn for help and

16     advice to Dejan Lucic, one of the leaders of the SPO ..."

17             And now I'm going to omit what the text in the parentheses says.

18     Their Honours can see this in the document that we have before us, as can

19     the OTP.  And then it says:

20             "... and to Radomir Zivkovic, the SPO's attorney."

21             Is that what it says?  Is that what we discussed a moment ago?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Mr. Lucic, do you know whether Mr. Snedden had any business

24     contacts with some other agencies or some other institutions?  If you

25     know about that, could you please tell us.

Page 15620

 1        A.   Which institutions do you mean, at home or abroad?

 2        Q.   At home, Yugoslavia at the time.

 3        A.   As far as I know, he did not have contacts with any institutions,

 4     because he was totally irrelevant in the entire political situation.  He

 5     was a dear associate of mine, Daniel Snedden, but he did not hold any

 6     political office and did not have any such contact with anyone.  If he

 7     did have such contact, that was without me knowing about this.

 8             How do I define his character?  He's a restless person.  He is

 9     not someone who belongs to a system.  It would be hard to fit him into a

10     system.

11        Q.   Mr. Lucic, do you know whether he had any business communication

12     with other agencies or television?

13        A.   Oh, yes.  With Yu Info, Goran Milic, and another radio station.

14     He had co-operation with them.  In a way, it was supposed to eliminate

15     the reasons that led to war and also the rising nationalist tensions in

16     the entire region.

17        Q.   When you mentioned Goran Milic, was that TV Yutel that was

18     relying on Ante Markovic, the then prime minister?

19        A.   That's right.  And it was supported by other people from Europe

20     and America who tried in that way that ease nationalist tensions.

21        Q.   At one point in time, in the beginning of 1991, did

22     Daniel Snedden travel somewhere?  Did he go abroad?

23        A.   Yes.  He left totally unannounced with my friend Pavic.  They

24     went to Thessaloniki, and then they both got in touch and they said that

25     they basically went as tourists.  I thought that the two of them went to

Page 15621

 1     meet with some people in Thessaloniki that had some political influence

 2     in Washington.  From there I was expecting some kind of support that

 3     could have come.  Actually, we were expecting it to come in order to deal

 4     with this regime that was calling itself a socialist regime, but it was

 5     basically Communist, and it was to be gradually removed from the scene.

 6             It was quite clear.  At that point in time, like in many years

 7     throughout our history, America was a country of reason, anti-Communism

 8     and democracy for us.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lucic, in 1991, in the beginning of 1991, did

10     Mr. Daniel Snedden travel somewhere and, if so, did you know about that?

11        A.   Yes.  He travelled to the US.  His basic task was to act upon my

12     instructions, and he was supposed to establish more direct communication

13     through his own contacts with those political forces in the

14     United States, primarily in Texas.  Actually, this had to do with some

15     congressman.  I cannot remember his name right now, but it is mentioned

16     in our documents.  This congressman had already taken part in toppling

17     Communist regimes.

18        Q.   Mr. Lucic, we're going to get to that when he returns from the

19     USA.

20        A.   He went on account of some business, to get some aircraft since

21     JAT airways was falling apart even then, he was supposed to start a new

22     airline with the assistance of some Americans.

23        Q.   In January 1991, were you still in the SPO?

24        A.   In January 1991, I was still in the SPO, and later on I left it.

25        Q.   When you left the SPO, were there any ideas there that had to do

Page 15622

 1     with establishing a new party?

 2        A.   Yes.  We had agreed to establish a new political party that would

 3     represent Serb national interests to the West in an articulated,

 4     gentlemanly fashion, not like a caricature as was done by other political

 5     leaders.  We wanted to call that party the Serbian Democratic Union.

 6        Q.   When you say that you wanted to call it the Serbian Democratic

 7     Union, when you say, "we," who is it that you mean?

 8        A.   It has to do with myself.  I was supposed to be the leader of

 9     that political party, and the people around me were a US citizen,

10     Milos Prica, then Aleksandar Pavic, and our contact person was supposed

11     to be Daniel Snedden, because he had the opportunity to travel and

12     establish contacts in an unhindered way in the United States of America.

13        Q.   Before he travelled to the USA, did you -- did you yourself or

14     you and Mr. Pavic and Mr. Prica, did you give him any instructions?  Did

15     you give Mr. Snedden some instructions?

16        A.   I told him to establish contact with political structures in

17     institutions in that country, institutional and non-institutional ones,

18     those that create the foreign policy of the United States.  We also had

19     the support of a priest called Djujic who was a political emigre in

20     California and who was Prica's relative.  We tried in every way to open

21     this iron gate in terms of America's goodwill towards the Serbs.

22        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let us please look at this now.  A moment ago, you

23     spoke about the position of Mr. Snedden vis-a-vis the leadership of the

24     SPO.  2D413.2.  Can we have a look at that now, please.  Can we see

25     page 2 in B/C/S.

Page 15623

 1        A.   What number is that?  I'm sorry.  I have 12, 11, 13.

 2        Q.   It is document number 7 in the table.

 3        A.   Thank you.

 4        Q.   But please focus on page 2.  We are going to look at the last

 5     paragraph.  So this is another report about the results of applying the

 6     measure of intercepts, and it says:

 7              "On the basis of Snedden's positions that he presented to his

 8     interlocutors from time to time, we can conclude that he is basically

 9     dissatisfied with the positions of the SPO because he says that the

10     leadership of that party are a group of soft people who don't know what

11     they want, but in spite of that, he has large-scale business plans with

12     the SPO."

13             Does this reflect what Mr. Snedden said to you as well?  You

14     spoke about it a moment ago.

15        A.   This was our joint position.  I can put it that way.  We were a

16     small group - How do I put this? - of people who were at a higher level

17     of political awareness, whereas Snedden was at a lower level, but he was

18     useful because he was streetwise, and this was our joint position.

19        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let us look at the next page now.  This report says

20     that Mr. Snedden was planning a trip to America via Munich, New York.  He

21     was going to Dallas and Miami.  Was that actually the destination of that

22     trip that you were aware of?

23        A.   Yes, that's the destination.  That's this meeting with some

24     congressman from Texas, the one that I referred to a moment ago.

25        Q.   Mr. Lucic, we'll come to that document in a minute.  While

Page 15624

 1     Mr. Snedden was in America, did you or Mr. Pavic or Mr. Prica have any

 2     contacts with him?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember, we tried to reach him through his

 4     girlfriend to see what was going on.  I believe that Prica was also in an

 5     America at the time.  He visited his parents who were in Chicago, and he

 6     spent some time in California with priest Djujic and as far as I can

 7     remember we were supposed to send a delegation -- actually, we were

 8     supposed to attend that meeting with the people from the political

 9     establishment of the USA, with anybody who showed inclination to see us,

10     and Daniel Snedden and Prica were supposed to prepare -- prepare all

11     those meetings for us.

12        Q.   Mr. Lucic, I am going to ask you something.  I have a document,

13     but we will see it later.  Before he went to America, did Mr. Snedden

14     have any contacts with the Serbs in Croatia?

15        A.   Yes.  In Rijeka in Croatia, his wife Jeremica [phoen] was

16     visiting with his relatives and I believe that he was in contact with

17     pilot Ostojic who was in a state of panic just like the other Serbs

18     because of what was going on in Croatia, because nationalism had become

19     the state policy over there, and fear spread among the Serbs.  And I

20     believe that he was either a pilot or an officer who had worked in Zemun

21     in the air force command.

22        Q.   You mean the army of Yugoslavia?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and the witness please be

24     asked not to overlap.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]


Page 15625

 1        Q.   Mr. Lucic, can we now look at --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, a pause between question and answer, and

 3     between answer and question.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I

 5     apologise.  I was full of promise for a new life, but to no avail it

 6     seems, but I'll do my best.

 7        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D418, paragraph 2.  This document

 8     should not be broadcast.  Let's look at the first page of the document,

 9     which is a report.

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually, for the benefit of the

11     witness, could we please go into private session just for a moment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15626











11 Page 15626 redacted. Private session.















Page 15627

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Lucic, before we come to the moment when Mr. Snedden returned


Page 15628

 1     from America, let us look at another document, 2D416, paragraph 2.  This

 2     is a non-redacted document.  Its translation is under 2D416.  It is the

 3     translation of the redacted document.

 4             You mentioned an officer from Rijeka in Croatia, and you -- I

 5     believe that you said that his family name was Ostojic; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you -- were you aware of the nature of contacts that

 8     Mr. Snedden had with him?

 9        A.   I assume that Daniel Snedden tried to establish contacts with the

10     army, especially with the officers who hailed from Croatia and who were

11     interested in organising the Serbian people in order to avoid the

12     repetition of -- in order to avoid the repetition of the genocide that

13     had happened during the Second World War.

14        Q.   Mr. Lucic, I'm going to interrupt you here.  I apologise.  I want

15     you to focus on important issues.  Look at this document.  This is an

16     official note on new findings about Daniel Snedden, and it is stated here

17     that he is in contact with a certain Major Ostojic, who is a pilot on JNA

18     aircraft, and he is an employee of the air force and anti-aircraft

19     defence command in Zemun.  Is that the person that you referred to?

20        A.   Yes.  If I -- if I remember correctly, the commander of the air

21     force was a Croat.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lucic.  And now let's go back to another

23     situation.  You said that you tried to get in touch with Mr. Snedden

24     while he was America, that you and Pavic and Prica tried to do the same.

25     Did you manage to contact him?

Page 15629

 1        A.   No.  As far as I can remember, we didn't.

 2        Q.   Do you know that while Mr. Snedden was in America he had contacts

 3     with the Serbian diaspora?

 4        A.   I'm sure that he had contacts with the Serbian diaspora, because

 5     that was the underlying idea, the idea underlying his trip.  He was

 6     supposed to contact the Serbs who were already there in America,

 7     especially those who had some weight and influence.

 8        Q.   Witness, please look at Exhibit 2D707, paragraph 2.  You said

 9     that you tried to secure something via Daniel Snedden and his trip to

10     America.  What was it that you tried to secure?

11        A.   We wanted to harness political and financial support for the

12     party that we wanted to create.

13        Q.   Witness, sir, I'm going to read an official note to you.  The

14     date is 14 February 1991.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid

16     going into private session, I would like to say that the document should

17     not be broadcast.  I'm going to skip a name for practical reasons.

18        Q.   It says here:  "Operative position."  It says at the -- and I'm

19     reading from the second paragraph:

20              "At the meeting, he said that the leaders of the newly founded

21     as yet unregistered party the Serbian Democratic Union, Dejan Lucic and

22     Aleksandar Pavic were intensively trying to resolve the problem of

23     finding financial resources for their political activity.  In this

24     respect, Pavic reminded Lucic that the two of them ought to urgently get

25     in touch with Daniel Snedden, who is currently in Dallas, USA, to find

Page 15630

 1     out whether Daniel had established any relevant contacts with

 2     institutions in America who would agree to finance their party."

 3             Are the allegations in this official note correct?  Are these

 4     facts correct?

 5        A.   Yes, they are.

 6        Q.   If we look at the following page, page 2, under 3 it says:

 7     "Information on hostile activity," and it says:

 8              "Dejan Lucic, a citizen of the SFRY, journalist from Belgrade,

 9     in -- suspected of having contact with the American service."  And then

10     there is a redacted part which the Trial Chamber can see without me

11     reading.

12             Did you know that the security service suspected you as somebody

13     involved in hostile activities in December 1991, did you know that?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Mr. Lucic, do you know when Mr. Snedden returned from America?

16        A.   He didn't stay long.  I can't remember the exact date.  That was

17     24 [as interpreted] years ago.

18        Q.   Can you give us an approximation as to when that took place?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, that was sometime in February, 1991.

20        Q.   Did you see Mr. Snedden upon his return from America, and if you

21     did, who else was present at the meeting?

22        A.   Pavic, Aleksandar Pavic was present at that meeting, and Snedden

23     told us about his journey to America, that it wasn't successful from the

24     political point of view but that he was hopeful that there would be other

25     attempts more successful than the previous one, because the political

Page 15631

 1     situation in the country deteriorated rapidly.

 2        Q.   Mr. Lucic, on that occasion did he mention contacts with some

 3     senators in America?

 4        A.   Yes.  I can't remember the name of the senator that he mentioned.

 5     I believe that his name was Wilson.  Yes, Wilson.

 6        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D422, paragraph 2.  And the English

 7     translation is 2D422, and let's look at page 2.

 8             Let's look at page 2, paragraph 1.  Page 2, please.  It's page 2

 9     in the English version as well.  Somewhere towards the middle it says in

10     actual fact -- actually, this is a report.  This is a report about what

11     Daniel Snedden said about his stay in America.  After establishing his

12     wish to establish contact with AOS, a meeting had been agreed upon with

13     an American congressman called Charles Wilson, who was very well-known as

14     an anti-Communist and who organised the toppling of Communist regime in

15     many countries.  What this report says, does it actually reflect what

16     Mr. Snedden said to you after returning from America?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   At some point in time after Daniel Snedden returned from America,

19     did you try to establish contact with this American senator?

20        A.   We tried to do that through Snedden and through Prica.

21        Q.   Did this meeting ever take place?

22        A.   Regrettably, no.

23        Q.   After Snedden's return from America, did you receive any

24     invitations from the Serb diaspora, and, if so, what was that all about?

25        A.   I received an invitation from people from a small town called

Page 15632

 1     Gary.  I think that this is near southern Chicago, and a year before that

 2     I held a lecture there in the church of Saint Lucas, and the people who

 3     originally came from Knin were worried that in their native area there

 4     would be another genocide.

 5        Q.   Did they ask you for something?  Did they suggest something?

 6        A.   Since I'm a journalist and since at that point in time I was a

 7     politician as well and I knew quite a few people, they asked me to help

 8     them so that they would not be unprepared for a war that was obviously in

 9     the making.  I had Captain Dragan -- rather, Daniel Snedden there at the

10     time, and he had completed some specialist courses in Australia, and this

11     was basically English training which is characterized by minimum losses

12     in manpower, and I find that to be very important.  I said to

13     Captain Dragan that it would be very good if he were to teach the Serbs

14     in the Krajina how to win without losing one's life, because Serbs had

15     been brought up in the wrong way, that it is heroic to die for the

16     Fatherland.  That is not true.  The point is to win and to survive.

17        Q.   Mr. Lucic, tell us, did you take any steps when you received this

18     invitation and, if so, what were they?

19        A.   Yes.  We went there.  Actually, this telephone contact was in

20     January, if I can remember correctly, and then with Pavic and Prica I

21     went to the Knin Krajina and we met some people with the political

22     structures there.  As far as I can remember Zdravkovic was there,

23     President of the Municipality of Benkovac, and we said that we came at

24     the request of Serbs from the Knin Krajina who live in Gary near Chicago

25     and we promised that we'd see what we could do to help.  After that I

Page 15633

 1     think it was in March, in spring, Pavic and I took Captain Dragan,

 2     Snedden, to Benkovac and we introduced him to the president of the

 3     municipality, Zdravkovic --

 4        Q.   Let me interrupt you there.

 5        A.   So you say that this was in the spring of 1991.

 6        Q.   How did you travel to the Knin Krajina?

 7        A.   We took my private car when we went there with Captain Dragan.

 8     Pavic, Daniel Snedden, and I, that is.

 9        Q.   Tell me, what was your destination?  Where was it that you had

10     set out for?

11        A.   We met in front -- actually, we went around 6.30 in the morning

12     to Zdravkovic's house.  We rang the doorbell and then he showed up.

13        Q.   Are you sure that Zdravkovic was the last name of the president

14     of the Municipality of Benkovac?

15        A.   It may have been a slip of the tongue.  I cannot remember any

16     more, but we went to see the president of the municipality of Zdravko --

17     of Benkovac.

18        Q.   Is it possible that his name was Zecevic?

19        A.   Yes.  Sorry.  Slip of the tongue.  Lapsus linguae.

20        Q.   What happened when you went to see him in the Municipality of

21     Benkovac?

22        A.   Together with him we went to Martic where Captain Daniel Snedden

23     and Martic met.  Martic was very mistrustful.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I was just wondering if we could please

Page 15634

 1     have a little bit more foundation.  We have something in the spring of

 2     1991.  If the witness knows approximate time or month.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, if it was a slip of the tongue of the

 4     witness, then you made that slip of the tongue in the 65 ter number

 5     filing as well, isn't it?

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I apologise.

 7     Perhaps I did not wish to insist.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's try -- could you be a bit more precise

 9     as to the month.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tell you the truth, it's been a

11     long time.  It's been 20 years, almost 21 years.  It was in 1991 and now

12     it's 2011, and it was spring.  It may have been March.  We'd have to look

13     at the documents.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that he came from

16     America in mid-March.  So that means that we probably went there in

17     April.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Lucic, if you cannot remember, it doesn't matter.  I will

20     try.  2D424, could we please take a look at that.  Point 2.  It is an

21     unredacted document.  It is a report from the 22nd of March, 1991.

22             Please take a look at this.  Actually, page 2.  Yes, page 2.

23             On the previous page we see the result of the monitoring of

24     Mr. Aleksandar Pavic's telephone.  Could we please not display this to

25     the public.  And on page 2 it says that Pavic, on the 19th of March,


Page 15635

 1     spoke to Dejan Lucic, and in parentheses it says "redacted," and because

 2     of the public we're not going to read what --

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually, Your Honour, maybe it

 4     would be better if we moved into private session so that we have this

 5     completed, as it were.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15636











11 Pages 15636-15638 redacted. Private session.















Page 15639

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.


Page 15640

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lucic, once again did Martin Lynch, Snedden's friend, arrive

 4     in Belgrade at one point in time?

 5        A.   Yes, he did, and I saw him in a bar.  I didn't really socialise

 6     with him.  I did not want to get involved in all that, because that went

 7     beyond all those things that I was involved with, and my involvement was

 8     with the root political organisation in Serbia.

 9        Q.   Do you know if Martin Lynch at one point in time left together

10     with Mr. Snedden to the Krajina of Knin?

11        A.   As far as I know, that's correct.

12        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Martin Lynch participated in the training

13     organised by Daniel Snedden in the Krajina of Knin?

14        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, they were both involved in that.

15     Daniel Snedden invited me to a film projection featuring a film about the

16     so-called Knindzas that he had established.  That was at the Kolarac

17     culture hall.  It was a promotional video about that special unit which

18     was a mixed male/female unit.  And that unit didn't have such a strong

19     military significance.  Its significance was more -- more of the moral

20     kind.  At that point in time, Captain Dragan became more popular in

21     Croatia and in Serbia than the patriarch Pavle, the Orthodox leader who

22     had been until then the most revered person in Serbia, more revered than

23     President Milosevic himself.  And it seems that President Milosevic had

24     managed to impose himself on the Serbian people.

25        Q.   Mr. Lucic, excuse me.  I have to interrupt you.  We have to focus

Page 15641

 1     on what the Defence deems to be relevant in this case.

 2             Can we now look at 2D429, paragraph 2.  This is the non-redacted

 3     version -- version of the document whose translation we will find under

 4     2D429.  The document should not be broadcast.

 5             Earlier on I -- I believe that you mentioned that -- that when

 6     Daniel returned from that meeting with Martic that you and Pavic also

 7     attended, that he wanted to talk to the association of immigrants.

 8             Let's look at paragraph 3 where it says:

 9             "On 25th March, 1991, Snedden telephoned the Matica Iseljenika

10     immigrant centre and requested a meeting with Brana Crncevic saying that

11     it was to do with very important things in connection with Serbia.  He

12     introduced himself as an immigrant from Australia.  We have grounds to

13     suspect that he initiated this contact with the aim of legalising his

14     activity in connection with obtaining and delivering arms to the

15     Knin Krajina."

16             Are you familiar with any of these facts?

17        A.   As I have already stated, it would have been very -- absolutely

18     pointless to arm Serbs in the Knin Krajina.  It would be tantamount to an

19     attempt to sell fridges to Eskimos.

20        Q.   Do you know that he contacted the immigrant centre and

21     Brana Crncevic?

22        A.   Yes, he did contact Brana Crncevic, whose nickname at the time

23     was the mother of all immigrants and he was in charge of helping refugees

24     from Croatia who came in big droves.  Brana Crncevic was very close to

25     Slobodan Milosevic; they often drank whisky together and during those

Page 15642

 1     informal meetings, he imposed his opinions on Milosevic and he influenced

 2     him in a way that even his advisor couldn't.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lucic, could you please look at the following paragraph where

 4     it says:  "Immediately after that he briefly spoke with

 5     Srboljub Milovanov.  We can conclude from the contact that Milovanov was

 6     briefed on Snedden's activities concerning attempts to obtain arms for

 7     the Knin Krajina."

 8             First of all, let me ask you this:  Do you know who

 9     Srboslav Milovanov is?

10        A.   He was a member of the SPO.  Pavic and Prica remained as members

11     of the SB -- SPO together with Daniel Snedden.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Just slow down because the interpreters are unable

13     to follow your speed of speech.  Could you also slow down in speaking.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just want to use the opportunity on

15     page 64, line 2, it is unclear who the -- in the transcript who

16     Brana Crncevic was very close to.  It may have some significance.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that I heard that it was Milosevic, drinking

18     whisky with Milosevic.  Yes.  That's now accurately on the -- it is now

19     accurate on the record.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise it was an

21     omission on my part.  I heard the same.  I didn't react because I didn't

22     notice the omission in the transcript.

23        Q.   Mr. Milovanov, in April 1991, what was his position?

24        A.   He was an MP on behalf of the Serbian Defence Movement.  He was

25     an MP who -- he was very close with Vuk Draskovic.

Page 15643

 1        Q.   Witness, I believe your words have been interpreted properly but

 2     I have to check.  You said that he was a member of parliament on behalf

 3     of --

 4        A.   On behalf of the SPO and Vuk Draskovic, the

 5     Serbian Renewal Movement.  I have to explain.  Political organisations in

 6     Serbia had their leaders for life, as it were, irregardless of the

 7     success of their policies.  And being close with political leaders was

 8     more important than leadership qualities or wisdom.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let's focus on my questions.  Let's go to the

10     following paragraph in the same documents where it says on the same day

11     Snedden phoned the Knin SO to ask whether they received the fax he had

12     sent to the chief of the Knin SUP, Martic.  He was told that such a fax

13     had not yet arrived.  According to the intelligence available -- that's

14     on the following page.  I apologise, can we go to the following page?

15     According to the intelligence available, Snedden is using a fax machine

16     at the branch of the GBM Elektronik company at Palmira Toljatija number 5

17     where his mistress, Branka Popovic, is employed.  Do you know anything

18     about the telephone conversation to Martic in Knin and about a fax he was

19     supposed to send there?

20        A.   No I don't know anything about that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I really have to urge you to slow down because you

22     are going, by far, too quickly.  Please proceed.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise once again, Your Honour.

24        Q.   My question, but before that, please wait.  My question is:  Do

25     you know anything about the fax that Mr. Snedden was supposed to send to

Page 15644

 1     Mr. Martic at the Knin SUP?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Part now of the French translation is not

 4     complete, Mr. Bakrac.  So if you would -- yes.  Could you -- I'll slowly

 5     read part of what I see in English on the transcript.

 6             According to the intelligence available, Snedden is using a fax

 7     machine at the branch of the GBM Elektronik company at -- could you

 8     please repeat the address?

 9             THE WITNESS:  You ask me?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Number 5 is there but not the name of the

11     street.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Palmira Toljatija Street in

13     New Belgrade.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that's where his mistress was employed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branka Popovic, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you were asked whether you knew anything about

17     the telephone conversation to Martic in Knin and about a fax he was

18     supposed to send there, and you didn't know anything about that.  Can we

19     resume from there, Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Lucic, you didn't know anything about the telephone contact

22     and the fax.  Did you know if Mr. Snedden had contacts with Mr. Martic?

23        A.   Yes.  I knew that they were in contact because he tried to

24     accomplish what he started, and the only person with whom he could talk

25     to at an equal military level was Martic, and Martic was supposed to help

Page 15645

 1     him to set up that special forces unit as part of the

 2     Territorial Defence, not as part of a police station.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lucic, to speed things along, let's move to the third page in

 4     the same document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Bakrac, this witness was

 6     scheduled for two hours examination-in-chief.  You have now used one hour

 7     and 40 -- 40 -- close to 48, 9 minutes, which means 10 minutes left.  I

 8     looked at the 65 ter summary.  I also listened to the testimony.  Pages

 9     and pages were spent on what seems to be by some [indiscernible] that is

10     to obtain financial and political abroad especially in the United States

11     and but that is expanded with the names of senators and congressman and

12     in all detail.  Do you think you could finish in the next 15 minutes,

13     Mr. Bakrac?

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was going to ask you

15     that.  Our -- our next witness should take -- was supposed to take three

16     and a half hours.  We are prepared to curtail that if you will -- if you

17     allow me to extend the testimony of this witness by half an hour.  I

18     wanted to provide a broader picture for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

19     I'm nearing the end of my examination-in-chief, and I believe another 45

20     minutes would suffice to accomplish that.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.  We will resume at 5 minutes to 6.00,

23     and from that moment you have half an hour, 30 minutes, to finish your

24     examination-in-chief.  As you know, we always carefully consider and

25     monitor the way in which the examination takes place, and you didn't give

Page 15646

 1     a broad picture.  You lost yourself in quite some details, which we had

 2     great difficulties in understanding what the relevance of those details

 3     for this testimony were.

 4             We'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.  Half an hour still available.  Please

 8     proceed.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let's look at page 4 in B/C/S.  This is the end of the

11     third page and the beginning of the fourth page in English?

12        A.   And what would be my number?

13        Q.   We're still on the same document that we had before the break.

14     Maybe you can look at the screen in front of you.  Where it says:

15             "On the 29th of March, 1991, Snedden phoned someone called Dragan

16     from Banja Luka."  Their dialogue is presented.  The story starts with

17     whether Snedden -- or rather Dragan intended to come to Belgrade or not.

18     Snedden asks him if he is still affiliated with the national defence and

19     then Snedden says, "Do you see the situation in Krajina?  I am in contact

20     with Martic, the chief of the SUP in Knin."

21             And Dragan answers:  "So you were with Martic?"

22             Snedden:  "Yes.  And the entire leadership there.  They are in

23     rather dire straits because they did not receive" --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have the right page in English before us?

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we

Page 15647

 1     should be on the following page I can see the words "National defence" at

 2     the end of this page.  I said that we will be reading from the end of the

 3     third page and the beginning of the fourth page.  I'm already reading

 4     from the fourth page in English, and I wish to stay on the same page in

 5     B/C/S.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was also a bit misled by the capital letters

 7     for Snedden and not for Dragan in the translation.  But perhaps we move

 8     on.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Dragan is in minuscules.  This is his interlocutor from

11     Banja Luka.  Dragan asks:  "You were with Martic?"

12             Snedden answers:  "And with entire leadership.  They are in very

13     difficult situation because they did not receive the assistance that they

14     expected.  There seems to be a -- a very tense relationship between

15     themselves and Milosevic, and they feel that Milosevic and the Serbian

16     opposition have turned their backs on them.  The situation is really sad.

17     I tried to do something but to no avail.  It seems that in Serbia there

18     is -- there is nobody prepared to do something like that.  That's why I

19     decided to give it all up and go to Africa.  Look at Vuk Draskovic.  He's

20     gone completely mad."

21             And Dragan answers:  "Forget Draskovic."

22             And then the story continues with the following words:  "The same

23     day Snedden called Milos Prica to arrange a joint meeting with

24     Dejan Lucic and Aleksandar Pavic.  My question to you, Witness, according

25     to the best of your recollection, was this meeting ever scheduled after

Page 15648

 1     the 29th of March, 1991?

 2        A.   Yes.  The meeting was indeed scheduled.  However, I would like to

 3     draw everybody's attention to the fact that Pavic, Prica, and Snedden are

 4     still members of the SPO, because we adhered to the Koran wisdom which

 5     says don't throw the dirty water before you are able to obtain new fresh

 6     water.  Since I -- they remained members of the SPO, and Daniel Snedden

 7     tried to use Vuk Draskovic to make a certain -- certain corrections

 8     because at the same time Vuk Draskovic established the Serbian Guards.

 9     He thought Vuk Draskovic, who was a member of parliament, would be able

10     to do more for the Serbs in Krajina than Daniel Snedden who was just a

11     marginal character in the entire story.

12        Q.   What you have just told us was that something that Daniel told

13     you at the meeting?

14        A.   No.  It was our agreement to use the SPO as a -- a lever, because

15     we thought that there would be a change of situation in the SPO, that

16     people would realise that Vuk Draskovic was not up to the historical

17     moment, and we see from this conversation that Daniel Snedden and Dragan

18     from Banja Luka were of the same opinion, and that was that Vuk Draskovic

19     obviously was not somebody who could be a leader or a statesman in

20     Serbia.  He was just an opposition leader and not the number one person

21     in --

22        Q.   Mr. Lucic, I have to interrupt you because my time is running up.

23     Kindly tell us whether at that meeting that followed this telephone

24     conversation as you've told us that disappointment, or rather, the

25     statement that we heard in the telephone conversation, was that something

Page 15649

 1     that Daniel Snedden conveyed to you as well?

 2        A.   Yes, he did.

 3        Q.   Can you remember what he told you at that time?

 4        A.   He said that he had tried through the immigrants association,

 5     through minister Sainovic, through Milovanov, he used all of that to

 6     influence Vuk.  He tried to establish contact with Vuk Draskovic left,

 7     right, and centre in order to create the other side of the bridge.  He

 8     already had the one-prong bridge leading to Martic but not to the other

 9     side.

10        Q.   Do you know whether before he left the Knin Krajina he ever

11     established any contacts, and if he did, with whom?

12        A.   I believe that he established contacts through Klara Mandic who

13     was a Jew from some people in Israel.  He hoped that the contact that he

14     had managed to establish would lead to the centres of power which would

15     then prevent a bad rerun of the year 1941.  I'm talking about the Second

16     World War when Jews, Serbs, and the Roma population perished in great

17     numbers.

18        Q.   Mr. Lucic, let me stop you there.  Do you know how Daniel Snedden

19     went to Krajina?  How did that happen, and how come that he stayed there

20     for a longer period of time?  Do you know that?

21        A.   I can only guess what happened.  I can't tell you anything for a

22     fact, because I don't know.

23        Q.   Before his departure to Krajina, did the two of you see each

24     other?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, we saw each other, but he only told me

Page 15650

 1     that he had found a good wind to take him there.  And since I knew that

 2     he had established contacts with Klara Mandic, I assumed that that was

 3     the wind, the Jewish lobby.  And when I saw him on TV with David Zvezda,

 4     I was in Germany at the time.  I saw him on RTL with David Zvezda or

 5     David Star, and then I put two and two together then I realized the name

 6     he used Daniel, that was a name quite often used among the Jewish

 7     population.

 8        Q.   Mr. Lucic, my time is running up.  Let's focus.  When you saw him

 9     on TV where was he?  Please make a break.  You say you saw him on RTL

10     television, where was he?

11        A.   He was in the Knin Krajina.

12        Q.   Were there any explanation as to what he was doing there?

13        A.   The explanation on TV was that he was the leader of the Knindza

14     men and women who were members of that special unit.  Their emblem was a

15     little bear, and he was also presented as a good leader.

16        Q.   Mr. Pavic --

17        A.   Lucic.

18        Q.   Yes, Mr. Lucic.  I apologise.  Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D431,

19     paragraph 2, which is the unredacted version.  The English translation is

20     2D431.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to look at

22     the second page in B/C/S and in English.  We're looking at page 2.  On

23     page 1 you can see a conversation between Snedden and Lynch.  The latter

24     we talked about.  And some movements on the following morning.  And now

25     let's go to page 2 where we find a conversation with Klara Mandic, it


Page 15651

 1     seems.

 2             Can we go into private session, Your Honours, because there is a

 3     redacted part in the document.  I would like to read it.  Therefore, I

 4     think we should be in private session.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15652











11 Page 15652-15659 redacted. Private session.
















Page 15660

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Mr. Lucic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.

13     Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.

14             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I don't have many

16     questions.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

18        Q.   Good afternoon.  Are you receiving me?

19        A.   [In English] Yes.

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  Just a couple of subjects.  First

21     of all, the Serbian Guard, you mentioned that it was an organisation

22     connected to the Serbian Renewal Movement.  What kind of organisation was

23     it in 1991?

24        A.   First of all, may I say that this organisation was registered as

25     an NGO, as it is called nowadays.  It was a group of citizens and was


Page 15661

 1     organised as such by the state -- or, rather, in the state.  The

 2     Serbian Guard was the militant department of the

 3     Serbian Renewal Movement.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did it become armed during 1991?

 5        A.   As far as I know, the Serbian Guard did not have any weapons in

 6     Serbia itself or perhaps some minimal quantities so that people could be

 7     trained in order to know how some new weapons can be handled, but their

 8     training took place around Belgrade, in some forests.  And its most

 9     important function was political, if I can put it that way, rather than

10     military, because --

11        Q.   Mr. -- sorry, can I interrupt you.  I want to try to finish

12     quickly.

13             Do you know a man called Vukasin Milovic.  Was he a member of the

14     staff of the Serbian Guard in 1991?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Was he connected in the Serbian Guard in any way?

17        A.   I don't know the man.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

19     microphones please be switched off.  We can barely hear the witness.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Serbian Guard I knew

21     Branko Vasiljkovic --

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you --

24        A.   I know Giska Bozovic as well.

25        Q.   If you just answer my questions, then we can finish quickly,

Page 15662

 1     please.  Where did the S -- where did the Serbian Guard receive their

 2     weapons from?  Could I suggest it was from the 4th of July barracks in

 3     Belgrade in 1991?

 4        A.   That happened later.  They got their first weapons out of their

 5     own arsenals, because some of them had already had weapons at home.

 6     These were some weapons that were of interest to them, like modern

 7     automatic rifles --

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   -- American ones, Hecklers, Uzis and so on.  As for later on --

10        Q.   As for later on -- when did they start receiving weapons from the

11     4th of July barracks, please?

12        A.   They started receiving these weapons after two or three months of

13     this game as they were playacting, pretending to be a military unit.

14     Where they got that, I don't know.  At any rate, they did not go to

15     Croatia with these weapons.  As far as I know, the state disarmed them at

16     the border.  The State of Serbia did not allow weapons to be taken to

17     Croatia, and there were plenty of weapons in Croatia anyway.  So when

18     they went to Krajina, they --

19        Q.   Let me summarise the situation if I can and see if you agree.

20     Towards the end of 1991, the Serbian Guard received weapons from the

21     4th of July barracks, which was under the control of General Simovic; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let me just simplify that.  Did they receive weapons

25     towards the end of 1991 from the 14th [sic] of July barracks?

Page 15663

 1        A.   As I've already said, I do not know.  I heard about that, but I

 2     don't know.  I don't know myself.  I was not present.

 3        Q.   You heard about that from other members of the

 4     Serbian Renewal Movement?

 5        A.   Renewal, "obnove".  Yes.  I heard that from people like Beli.

 6        Q.   Giska?

 7        A.   Beli and Giska Bozovic.

 8        Q.   When those people tried to take the weapons through --

 9        A.   [In English] Sorry, not from the Beli.  [Interpretation] I've

10     just made a mistake.

11        Q.   When they tried to move through Serbia to Croatia with those

12     weapons, the Serbian MUP stopped them and disarmed them; is that correct?

13        A.   That is correct and that is what I've already said.  They

14     considered that to be treason on the part of the police.

15        Q.   Was the Serbian Guard eventually broken up through the efforts of

16     the Serbian MUP who kept disarming the members?

17        A.   The Serbian Guard was broken up because it did not want to fit

18     into the concept of Territorial Defence.  It acted independently, and

19     they were insufficiently trained in the Knin Krajina near Gospic, I

20     think.  So its military leaders got killed, and soldiers returned home

21     disappointed.  Some individuals stayed in the Serb Krajina, the

22     Knin Krajina, and joined the units that were led by Babic as the

23     political leader and Martic as the military leader.

24        Q.   And who was instrumental in breaking them up?  Was it the Serbian

25     MUP?

Page 15664

 1        A.   What I heard, I mean I was not out there in the field, was that

 2     the Serb MUP was against the Serbian Guard for two reasons.  One was the

 3     fact that these people who went there without sufficient training could

 4     get carried away by the situation in the field, appalled by the crimes of

 5     the Croatian military, and they could have reacted spontaneously by

 6     committing crimes themselves.  The reason was that the regime of

 7     Slobodan Milosevic did not want a political party to have an army of its

 8     own because that could destabilise them.

 9        Q.   And we've heard about the knowledge that you have concerning them

10     receiving weapons from the 14th of July barracks.  Did they also receive

11     training through the same military structures?

12        A.   Probably not, because at that time in Serbia all the men served

13     in the military and they therefore had basic military training.  As far

14     as I know the Serbian Guard had some foreigners who trained the guard in

15     modern warfare techniques.

16        Q.   Who organised that, the Serbian Renewal Movement?

17        A.   The foreigners were organised by the Serbian Renewal Movement,

18     but probably all of that could not have happened if from the shadow they

19     did not have the support of military security structures.

20        Q.   So to -- to summarise, from what you saw, the Serbian MUP was

21     against the Serbian Guard but the military structures gave them a degree

22     of support.

23        A.   Absolutely.  Absolutely correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, another subject and then this is my -- then I

25     can finish.

Page 15665

 1             You --

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for

 3     interrupting my colleague, but I don't think that the interpretation is

 4     right.  On page 86, lines 2 and 3.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked about -- you told us about that there

 6     was some foreigners who trained the Serbian Guard in modern warfare

 7     techniques, then you were asked:

 8             "Who organised that, the Serbian Renewal Movement?"

 9             And then you answered:

10             "The foreigners," at least that's how its translated, "were

11     organised by the Serbian Renewal Movement --" yes.  Please correct me

12     when this was wrongly understood.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Serbian Renewal

14     Movement brought these foreigners in but that could not have happened

15     without the permission of the military.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it is corrected.  Please proceed,

17     Mr. Jordash.

18             MR. JORDASH:

19        Q.   You testified today at page 78 that Dragan was offered the rank

20     of reserve captain in the Territorial Defence.  Do you know who offered

21     him that rank?

22        A.   I assume it was Negovanovic.

23        Q.   And from what you've said, he was less than happy with that offer

24     and felt that he deserved something more.  Would you agree with me that

25     he was extremely angry and felt devalued with that offer?

Page 15666

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Captain Dragan -- Captain Dragan was

 2     actually a brand.  His function was not of a military nature.  Anybody

 3     could have taught those soldiers how to wage war, anybody who had that

 4     kind of knowledge.  He was a brand.  He was a symbol, as it were, and

 5     symbols cannot --

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did he get into an argument or a long-running

 7     argument with General Simovic?  Are you able to testify to that?

 8        A.   He was in an argument with all military structures,

 9     General Simovic included.  Because he was ridiculed, ignored, put down.

10     These military persons did not understand that marketing was more

11     important than cannons, than the force of weapons.

12        Q.   Did you during this time when he fell into these arguments with

13     the military structures, did you hear him begin to assert his alleged

14     connection with the Serbian DB?

15        A.   Let me explain that after the Second World War Tito organised a

16     security service within which there was the military security and state

17     security, and --

18        Q.   Sorry to interrupt.  We know a lot of this, because we've been

19     here for two long years.  Could you just answer the question.  Did you

20     ever hear him assert during this time, during the time when he was in

21     this confrontation with the military structures, that he was connected

22     somehow to the Serbian DB?

23        A.   He was scaring the army with the DB in order to make them do what

24     he wanted them to do, because he knew that there was always an antagonism

25     there.

Page 15667

 1        Q.   Just elaborate a little bit on that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I said that would I need five minutes.

 3     You stay well within your time, but --

 4             MR. JORDASH:  I can finish this tomorrow with Your Honour's

 5     leave.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then you would need?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Two to three minutes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Two to three minutes.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  If I can say five just in case.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I'd rather not leave the matter -- let's

11     say five just to be very generous, Mr. Jordash.

12             But first I would invite the witness to already leave the

13     courtroom, but, Mr. Lucic, you are instructed that you should not speak

14     with anyone -- could you please keep your -- could you please -- yes.

15     Before you leave, I would like to give you a few instructions.

16             You should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever way

17     with anyone about your testimony, that is testimony already given today

18     or testimony still to be given tomorrow or perhaps even the day after

19     tomorrow.  Is that clear?  Because we'd like to see you back tomorrow

20     morning --

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at 9.00 in this same courtroom.  Then you may

23     follow the usher.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]


Page 15668

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, one very practical matter.  The Chamber

 2     is not considering to ask for an additional medical report before the

 3     scheduled one on Friday.  The Chamber received information that the

 4     present condition of Mr. Stanisic is such that we should not expect him

 5     to be back in court this week.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  My -- I'm only hesitating because obviously I

 7     received requests from -- or inquiries from those who know Mr. Stanisic

 8     in -- in Serbia concerning his health, and --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see your point.  This should not prevent

10     either Mr. Stanisic or yourself from seeking information from -- from his

11     treating doctors, but of course as you know, we usually rely on reporting

12     doctors, and I think the first step to be taken is that you find out, to

13     the with Mr. Stanisic and those who treat him, what is the situation.

14             If by tomorrow if you're unable to find out anything further,

15     we'll further consider, but our information is that he'll not be

16     available in court most likely this week.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  The information I have is that he's been

18     taken to the prison UNDU hospital.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not aware of that.

20             MR. JORDASH:  That's all I know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is not.

22             MR. JORDASH:  But I should inform Your Honours that I am not able

23     to speak to his treating doctors, because the Registry won't let me.

24     They'll let me put questions but not to actually speak to them directly.

25     So --

Page 15669

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Also not in the presence of Mr. Stanisic.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  And not even in the presence of Mr. Stanisic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the doctors have told Mr. Stanisic

 4     what -- why they took him to hospital.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  I -- I would hope they have.  Whether Mr. Stanisic

 6     follows that completely, I don't know.  Whether he's in a fit state to

 7     follow that, I don't know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither do I.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Whether I can speak to him now, I don't know.

10     Well, I can't speak to him now; it's 7.00.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You also know that the primary responsibility for

12     the health care of Mr. Stanisic is in the hands of the Registrar.  We are

13     concerned especially when it has an impact on the court proceedings.

14     Well, we know what at present the impact on the court proceedings is and

15     we expect a report, I think, this Friday.  Meanwhile we assume that the

16     Registrar will take full responsibility for that medical care.  Of

17     course, the medical care administered by -- by the doctors.

18             If there's any matter there remaining, then the Chamber offers

19     its assistance in trying to clarify these issues, but as far as the

20     proceedings at this moment, our information is that the present condition

21     of Mr. Stanisic, without knowing any further details, is such that we

22     should not expect him to be back in court for the coming two days which

23     are scheduled today.

24             If you further need -- if -- if you think that by Chamber staff

25     smoothing your way to access to -- to information which is, of course,

Page 15670

 1     important but of a different kind, that is what the medical condition of

 2     Mr. Stanisic is, not to say that the Chamber is not interested in that,

 3     but of course that is not our primary responsibility unless any matter is

 4     raised which makes it our primary responsibility.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I understand --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  -- and accept completely what Your Honour is saying

 8     and we're grateful for the offer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And again, you may have noticed also last

10     week, questions to be put, et cetera, we do not hesitate.  We usually

11     take immediate action when it is for us to take action and we will always

12     assist you.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just to raise with the Chamber on this

16     issue of his medical condition.  His medical condition has always been an

17     important factor that the Chamber has considered in its decisions for

18     provisional release, and I see earlier today a decision granting

19     provisional release has come through.  I would ask the Chamber to

20     consider overnight whether it would not be prudent for the Chamber to

21     update itself on the medical condition with respect to provisional

22     release.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Today a decision granting provisional

24     for Mr. Stanisic?

25             MR. JORDASH:  No, I think it's for Mr. Simatovic.

Page 15671

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a totally different matter.

 2             MR. GROOME:  I apologise, Your Honour.  It's --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let me say the following:  It's -- it's not

 4     pure coincidence that one decision has been issued today and not two.

 5     That -- let me leave it to that.  That -- but I would say that almost

 6     goes without saying that ...

 7             Then I ask for indulgence of our interpreters.  There's a

 8     matter -- let me see whether we can wait until tomorrow.  Yes, I think we

 9     can wait with it until tomorrow.  So I had another decision to be read,

10     but I'm not going to steal even more time of those who are already so

11     loyally assisting us in this courtroom.

12             We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow the 14th of

13     December, 2011, at 9.00 in the morning, in Courtroom II.  And,

14     Mr. Jordash, of course the waiver issue may be relevant and important for

15     tomorrow as well.  So let's see if that has an impact on the proceedings.

16     We stand adjourned.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day

19                           of December, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.