1 Tuesday, 13 December 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Stanisic not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is
10 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Mr. Jordash, I was informed that you wanted to raise a few
13 matters. I suggest that we first go through my agenda and to the extent
14 I've not dealt with the matters that you in addition to that have an
15 opportunity to raise any matter.
16 The first one is the absence of Mr. Stanisic. Mr. Stanisic is
17 not present in court. We have received a -- the paperwork attached to
18 that in which it is confirmed by the nurse that she has observed symptoms
19 which are such that she considers -- they support that Mr. Stanisic will
20 not be in such a condition that he could appear in court.
21 Mr. Jordash, of course the Chamber wonders whether any further
22 details are known, whether it's related to already known symptoms or not,
23 and if you would prefer to go into private session, we would do so.
24 MR. JORDASH: I -- I don't know any further details or precise
25 symptoms. What I do know is that Mr. Martin spoke to him, and he sounded
1 extremely weak and disengaged, and with Your Honours' leave, I would ask
2 that a report dealing with the current situation be compelled as soon as
3 possible so that we might know the answers to Your Honour's query.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider that. Of course we are
5 expecting a report anyhow this Friday from the reporting medical officer,
6 but if there's any other matter, we will see if there is any urgency of
7 receiving any report before Friday.
8 MR. JORDASH: Yes. I only ask because Mr. Martin -- I didn't
9 speak to him, but Mr. Martin was concerned.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. And then the nurse also observed and one
11 of the questions, something about the time the reconvalescence would take
12 and she considered, although, of course, she's not a doctor, but
13 nevertheless the nurse considered that it would take some time.
14 We'll further try to receive relevant information.
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes. And perhaps I should indicate, Your Honours,
16 that Mr. Stanisic is content with the proceedings continuing.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We saw that he has waived his right. That was
18 the second part of my observation. He waived his right to be present in
19 court and has confirmed this in writing.
20 We will then see how this matter develops.
21 Mr. Jordash, of course the videolink option is always still open
22 even if only passive, if you understand what I mean, to follow the
23 proceedings if he doesn't want to actively participate in it. Not to say
24 that his condition allows him to do that, but just to remind you that
25 that facility is always available.
1 MR. JORDASH: Certainly. Mr. Martin informs me that he could
2 barely have a conversation with him, so we'll see.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next item on my agenda, the Chamber allows
4 the Stanisic Defence to call Witnesses DST-071 and DST-081 out of turn.
5 The Simatovic and the Stanisic Defences need to sort out the scheduling
6 of these witnesses among themselves and then inform the Chamber and the
7 Prosecution of course. It's finally the Chamber that will decide whether
8 it approves your agreement, yes or no.
9 Then the next item. Mr. Groome, the Prosecution indicated last
10 week that it would not be ready to begin cross-examining Witness DFS-014
11 this week. The Chamber nevertheless suggests that we see how far we can
12 get this week. Might be that we would have to recall the witness after
13 the recess anyhow. And if necessary, of course, the Prosecution can make
14 a request for postponement at the relevant time.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour. Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. And
16 just to add an additional piece of information is that we as yet have to
17 receive translations for the documents that are going to be used with
18 this witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Bakrac, any idea about the translations?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment. Please
22 bear with me.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything should be
25 finished today and all the translations are supposed to be uploaded in
1 the course of the day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That may be helpful information for Mr. Groome.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Although I apologise, Your Honour.
4 I apologise. I may have not reacted in time. If it may be of any
5 assistance to you, we do not object to the Prosecution's request to
6 postpone the cross-examination of that witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber may have other concerns than
8 the Defence may have in this respect.
9 No further questions on this matter? Then I move on.
10 Mr. Bakrac, I'd like to remind you that some of the documents you
11 intend to use with your first witnesses, and that would include the very
12 first witness, the Republic of Serbia has recently requested protective
13 measures. That was a request dated the 9th of December, which was filed
14 yesterday, the 12th of December, and the parties therefore should ensure
15 that any such documents are provisionally put under seal if marked and
16 that such documents are not to be broadcasted to the public, or if need
17 be, to request private session awaiting a decision on the request by this
18 Chamber. And have the parties --
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have understood
20 that, and I would like to add that on the 9th of December, on Friday, we
21 received from the State of Serbia unredacted documents which comprise all
22 the documents that we want to use with the first witness. My
23 Case Manager uploaded all those documents on Saturday and Sunday, so now
24 in the system you have both redacted and non-redacted versions of the
25 documents which according to us should be under seal. Those that we wish
1 to show to the witness, we will request from the Chamber to move into
2 private session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. The Prosecution
5 understands the Chamber's direction. We just want to put on the record
6 that the Prosecution was notified that the unredacted version has just
7 become available immediately before the proceedings today just in court.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, of course much depends -- the Chamber has
9 no knowledge of that, what the redactions were about, whether it was just
10 names or whether it were larger portions of the documents, but it's on
11 the record that you received notice only today.
12 Then the next one, in relation to the Stanisic Defence's
13 anticipated bar table motions, the Chamber cancels the deadlines given
14 earlier in line with the discussion last week that the parties should
15 find other ways to inform the Chamber of the content of that material,
16 and the Chamber expects a report from the parties in this respect by the
17 13th of January, 2012.
18 MR. JORDASH: I understand Your Honour's ruling.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're not -- we're not pushing you to keep
20 those deadlines, but, rather, hear from the parties, which would be the
21 best way to present this, along the lines of the discussion last week.
22 MR. JORDASH: Yes. We'll --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you will re-read that.
24 MR. JORDASH: No. I remember the discussion well, and I've
25 already spoken with Mr. Groome about arranging a meeting, and we're
1 second, in fact, the first bar table to the Prosecution later today to be
2 the foundation for that discussion, or at least part of the discussion.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And when such a discussion is ongoing, the Chamber
4 considered it more wise to -- not to push on the deadlines.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then although unrelated to the situation
7 of today, Mr. Jordash, which came up after the concerns you expressed
8 last week about various health matters of Mr. Stanisic, questions have
9 been put to the reporting medical officer. He has addressed them in the
10 latest report, and further it is my understanding and the Chamber's
11 understanding that any other issues have been resolved -- resolved
12 between you and OLAD. Is that correctly understood?
13 MR. JORDASH: Well, I wouldn't totally agree with the latter
14 point. We are in the process of trying to resolve the issues with OLAD.
15 They've sent us the second part of Mr. Stanisic's medical records.
16 They're in Dutch, and I'm having them translated and will then address
17 any other points if any other points arise.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But under these circumstances I take it you
19 would agree for the Chamber there's not an immediate necessity for us to
20 follow up on the matter and we leave it for the time being in your hands.
21 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's then clear and on the record.
23 Any other matter, because these were the items I would like to
25 Then is the Simatovic Defence ready to call its first witness,
1 Mr. Bakrac?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Simatovic
3 Defence would like to call up its first witness, DFS-005. He has not
4 requested any protective measures. His name is
5 Dejan Lukic [as interpreted].
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would you leave, I
9 would like to address the Chamber while the witness is being escorted
10 into the courtroom.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, could you -- the way to pronounce
12 the family name is Dejan Lukic or ...
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Lucic. I'm sorry.
14 Lucic. It's a bit complicated. It's a mouthful.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I may have misunderstood the translation, but I
16 understood it to be pronounced as Lukic, and I always try to pronounce
17 the names of the witnesses correctly.
18 The matter you'd like to raise, Mr. --
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say
20 that before today's session, I had a conference with Mr. Weber, and we
21 agreed that as far as the Prosecution is concerned and when it comes to
22 the basic information on this witness, I can lead the witness in order to
23 save time. Obviously if this is agreeable with the Trial Chamber.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber leaves this usually in the hands
25 of the parties.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lucic, good afternoon.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, you are required to make a
5 solemn declaration. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's it. The other pages are the
9 other languages, Mr. Lucic. Please be seated.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 WITNESS: DEJAN LUCIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lucic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Bakrac.
14 Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
15 You may proceed.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Examination by Mr. Bakrac:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lucic.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Mr. Lucic, before I start with my examination, I would like to
21 remind you that we speak the same language, which is why I would like you
22 to wait a little after my question for the interpretation to be over and
23 then start answering. This will avoid overlapping and will save us some
24 time which might be otherwise necessary to repeat your answers. So I
25 think you would be best advised to look at the screen in front of you,
1 and when the interpretation is over, then and only then please start
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Lucic, I will briefly go through your CV, and you will just
5 briefly tell me whether the information is correct or not. Your name is
6 Dejan and your last name is Lucic.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Please wait until I complete all the information and then you
9 will say yes or no. Again I'm trying to save some time.
10 You were born on the 15th November, 1950 in Belgrade. You lived
11 in Svetozar Markovic Street at number 26. You completed your elementary
12 education in the same street. You attended the Aleksa Santic elementary
13 school there. You graduated from secondary school of economics, and then
14 in 1969, you became a student at the school of political sciences and you
15 graduated in 1983. Is all that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In 1969, when you enrolled at the school of political sciences,
18 you also started working as a photographer at "Politika" newspaper; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Not exactly. I first started working for "Borbin Svet," and that
21 was in 1971, and then after having served in the army, I started working
22 in the newspaper "Zdravo" in 1977. I worked as a photographer, and later
23 on I became a journalist which started as the youth magazine "Zdravo" and
24 then became a political magazine "Intervju".
25 Q. And the magazine "Intervju" was published by the "Politika"
1 publishing house; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you graduated in 1983 from the school of political sciences,
4 at that moment you worked as a journalist at "Politika"?
5 A. Yes. I was a part-time student, and I worked as a journalist all
6 the time.
7 Q. Mr. Lucic, you have published 13 books as a journalist and a
8 geopolitician, and six of them deal with investigative journalism, two
9 books are about politics, and you also published four fiction novels;
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Lucic, is it true that in 1968 you became a member of the
13 League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and why?
14 A. I was ambitious, and in view of the system as was in place at the
15 time, it was a wise decision not to stick out for the wrong reasons,
16 which is why I became a member of the ruling party so as to be able to
17 find employment in journalism.
18 Q. When you say the ruling party, do you also mean that that was the
19 only party in existence at the time in the former Yugoslavia?
20 A. That was the only political party, because the system was a
21 socialist -- or, rather, para-Communist system.
22 Q. Mr. Lucic, in 1990, in the month of April, you became a member of
23 the Serbian Renewal Movement, which was a very strong opposition party.
24 Did you then abandon your membership in the League of Communists of
25 Yugoslavia, or did it happen even before that?
1 A. I stopped being a member of the League of Communists as soon as I
2 enrolled at the school of political sciences, because I had realized that
3 the membership in the party could not provide me with the social mobility
4 that I sought. The state that we lived in had a lot of political files,
5 and the stitum [as interpreted] was aware of the fact that I had been
6 born in an anti-Communist family.
7 Q. Mr. Lucic, in April 1990, you became a member of the
8 Serbian Renewal Movement. Could you please tell us first something about
9 that party. What was its agenda? Just briefly, please.
10 A. The Serbian Renewal Movement, which was led at the time and is
11 still led by Vuk Draskovic, who is well known in Serbia as a novelist, as
12 a writer, was a party which I perceived as a party that would change the
13 position of the Serbian people in Yugoslavia. The -- the slogan that was
14 very popular in the state under the Communist rule was a weak Serbia, a
15 strong Yugoslavia.
16 Q. Mr. Lucic, my time is really very limited, which is why I would
17 like to focus on the issues of some significance to me.
18 When you entered or when you became a member of the
19 Serbian Renewal Movement, which was the strongest opposition party to
20 Milosevic's regime, what was your position in the party?
21 A. I had already made a name for myself as a journalist and as a
22 novelist, and since I was a native of Belgrade, which means I was a
23 resident of the capital of Yugoslavia, and many generations before me
24 were also residents of Belgrade, I was appointed the president of the
25 initiative board of the SPO or the Serbian Renewal Movement. That was in
1 April 1990. And then if my memory serves me well, that became official
2 in October of the same year.
3 Q. In October which year? When you say in October 1990, that's when
4 it became official; right? So in October 1990, what was the official
5 position you held in the SPO?
6 A. I became president of the Belgrade board of the SPO and already
7 at that time it had about 40.000 members.
8 Q. For the sake of comparison, do you know what the membership of
9 the Democratic Party was, for example, at the same time, October 1990?
10 A. The Democratic Party that is ruling our country at this point in
11 time in that period had only 20.000 members in all of Serbia. So my
12 Belgrade board was two times stronger than that.
13 Q. Mr. Lucic, can you tell us who your closest associates were in
14 the Belgrade board of the SPO?
15 A. My closest associates were Raka Zivkovic, a lawyer. He comes
16 from a well-known anti-Communist family. Then a US citizen, an ethnic
17 Serb, Milos Prica. He was my vice-president, as well as Raka Zivkovic as
18 well. My political advisor was Aleksandar Pavic. I thought that he was
19 a US citizen too. He had a degree in political science that he had
20 received from the University of Berkeley, and his average grade was 9.7.
21 Q. Mr. Lucic, now I would just like to ask you for the transcript to
22 give the names once again of your vice-presidents. So Zivkovic?
23 A. Raka Zivkovic, also Milos Prica.
24 Q. Thank you. Now it's fine. Mr. Witness, starting from December
25 1990, I showed you a series of documents starting from December 1990.
1 That's what I did during our proofing, and these documents all the --
2 went all the way up to the end of 1991. Isn't that right?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to
4 move into private session, because I would like to say something by way
5 of comment regarding these documents, and I'd actually like to call up
6 the first document already.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 15591-15616 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Lucic, before the break we were saying that Mr. Snedden had
6 warned you about the possibility of repression if you win. Were you
7 aware of any of his business dealings at the time apart from the
8 political party work?
9 A. I know that he had a plane and that he was making money that way,
10 as he was chartering it to those who were interested.
11 Q. Do you know when Mr. Snedden, towards the end of 1990, in
12 December to be precise, had some problems with that aeroplane?
13 A. Yes, he did have problems with unpaid airport taxes, because he
14 did not observe procedure, and he did not pay.
15 Q. Do you know whether at some point in time his aeroplane was
16 checked and, if so, do you know by who?
17 A. I think that the airport police or customs checked his plane and
18 that they seized his plane or did not allow it to fly anyway.
19 Q. From that point of view, did Mr. Snedden address
20 Mr. Pavic [Realtime transcript read in error "Pavkovic"] or you asking
21 you for help?
22 A. Yes. I directed him to my vice-president, who was Raka Zivkovic,
23 a very well-known lawyer, and I thought that that was a legal problem
24 that would best be solved in that way. I thought that -- that we should
25 help each other out like the Three Musketeers.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. There
2 was a mistake with the last name.
3 Q. I asked whether Mr. Snedden had addressed you or Mr. Pavic and
4 the transcript says "Pavkovic". Did you mean Mr. Pavic?
5 A. Aleksandar Pavic. Pavkovic is a general.
6 Q. Mr. Lucic, let us show a document now. 2D407. Actually, let us
7 look at it without broadcasting it to the public, and I'd be interested
8 in paragraph 2.
9 Please take a look at the last paragraph and tell me whether that
10 was the situation that we discussed a moment ago. So this is what the
11 last paragraph says -- actually, in the previous paragraph the problems
12 that Daniel Snedden has with his plane are referred to, and the plane was
13 searched, and it was seized, and then in the also paragraph it says:
14 "Pavic responded he should be exceptionally careful because this
15 might be some sort of trap and instructed Snedden to turn for help and
16 advice to Dejan Lucic, one of the leaders of the SPO ..."
17 And now I'm going to omit what the text in the parentheses says.
18 Their Honours can see this in the document that we have before us, as can
19 the OTP. And then it says:
20 "... and to Radomir Zivkovic, the SPO's attorney."
21 Is that what it says? Is that what we discussed a moment ago?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Lucic, do you know whether Mr. Snedden had any business
24 contacts with some other agencies or some other institutions? If you
25 know about that, could you please tell us.
1 A. Which institutions do you mean, at home or abroad?
2 Q. At home, Yugoslavia at the time.
3 A. As far as I know, he did not have contacts with any institutions,
4 because he was totally irrelevant in the entire political situation. He
5 was a dear associate of mine, Daniel Snedden, but he did not hold any
6 political office and did not have any such contact with anyone. If he
7 did have such contact, that was without me knowing about this.
8 How do I define his character? He's a restless person. He is
9 not someone who belongs to a system. It would be hard to fit him into a
11 Q. Mr. Lucic, do you know whether he had any business communication
12 with other agencies or television?
13 A. Oh, yes. With Yu Info, Goran Milic, and another radio station.
14 He had co-operation with them. In a way, it was supposed to eliminate
15 the reasons that led to war and also the rising nationalist tensions in
16 the entire region.
17 Q. When you mentioned Goran Milic, was that TV Yutel that was
18 relying on Ante Markovic, the then prime minister?
19 A. That's right. And it was supported by other people from Europe
20 and America who tried in that way that ease nationalist tensions.
21 Q. At one point in time, in the beginning of 1991, did
22 Daniel Snedden travel somewhere? Did he go abroad?
23 A. Yes. He left totally unannounced with my friend Pavic. They
24 went to Thessaloniki, and then they both got in touch and they said that
25 they basically went as tourists. I thought that the two of them went to
1 meet with some people in Thessaloniki that had some political influence
2 in Washington. From there I was expecting some kind of support that
3 could have come. Actually, we were expecting it to come in order to deal
4 with this regime that was calling itself a socialist regime, but it was
5 basically Communist, and it was to be gradually removed from the scene.
6 It was quite clear. At that point in time, like in many years
7 throughout our history, America was a country of reason, anti-Communism
8 and democracy for us.
9 Q. Mr. Lucic, in 1991, in the beginning of 1991, did
10 Mr. Daniel Snedden travel somewhere and, if so, did you know about that?
11 A. Yes. He travelled to the US. His basic task was to act upon my
12 instructions, and he was supposed to establish more direct communication
13 through his own contacts with those political forces in the
14 United States, primarily in Texas. Actually, this had to do with some
15 congressman. I cannot remember his name right now, but it is mentioned
16 in our documents. This congressman had already taken part in toppling
17 Communist regimes.
18 Q. Mr. Lucic, we're going to get to that when he returns from the
20 A. He went on account of some business, to get some aircraft since
21 JAT airways was falling apart even then, he was supposed to start a new
22 airline with the assistance of some Americans.
23 Q. In January 1991, were you still in the SPO?
24 A. In January 1991, I was still in the SPO, and later on I left it.
25 Q. When you left the SPO, were there any ideas there that had to do
1 with establishing a new party?
2 A. Yes. We had agreed to establish a new political party that would
3 represent Serb national interests to the West in an articulated,
4 gentlemanly fashion, not like a caricature as was done by other political
5 leaders. We wanted to call that party the Serbian Democratic Union.
6 Q. When you say that you wanted to call it the Serbian Democratic
7 Union, when you say, "we," who is it that you mean?
8 A. It has to do with myself. I was supposed to be the leader of
9 that political party, and the people around me were a US citizen,
10 Milos Prica, then Aleksandar Pavic, and our contact person was supposed
11 to be Daniel Snedden, because he had the opportunity to travel and
12 establish contacts in an unhindered way in the United States of America.
13 Q. Before he travelled to the USA, did you -- did you yourself or
14 you and Mr. Pavic and Mr. Prica, did you give him any instructions? Did
15 you give Mr. Snedden some instructions?
16 A. I told him to establish contact with political structures in
17 institutions in that country, institutional and non-institutional ones,
18 those that create the foreign policy of the United States. We also had
19 the support of a priest called Djujic who was a political emigre in
20 California and who was Prica's relative. We tried in every way to open
21 this iron gate in terms of America's goodwill towards the Serbs.
22 Q. Mr. Lucic, let us please look at this now. A moment ago, you
23 spoke about the position of Mr. Snedden vis-a-vis the leadership of the
24 SPO. 2D413.2. Can we have a look at that now, please. Can we see
25 page 2 in B/C/S.
1 A. What number is that? I'm sorry. I have 12, 11, 13.
2 Q. It is document number 7 in the table.
3 A. Thank you.
4 Q. But please focus on page 2. We are going to look at the last
5 paragraph. So this is another report about the results of applying the
6 measure of intercepts, and it says:
7 "On the basis of Snedden's positions that he presented to his
8 interlocutors from time to time, we can conclude that he is basically
9 dissatisfied with the positions of the SPO because he says that the
10 leadership of that party are a group of soft people who don't know what
11 they want, but in spite of that, he has large-scale business plans with
12 the SPO."
13 Does this reflect what Mr. Snedden said to you as well? You
14 spoke about it a moment ago.
15 A. This was our joint position. I can put it that way. We were a
16 small group - How do I put this? - of people who were at a higher level
17 of political awareness, whereas Snedden was at a lower level, but he was
18 useful because he was streetwise, and this was our joint position.
19 Q. Mr. Lucic, let us look at the next page now. This report says
20 that Mr. Snedden was planning a trip to America via Munich, New York. He
21 was going to Dallas and Miami. Was that actually the destination of that
22 trip that you were aware of?
23 A. Yes, that's the destination. That's this meeting with some
24 congressman from Texas, the one that I referred to a moment ago.
25 Q. Mr. Lucic, we'll come to that document in a minute. While
1 Mr. Snedden was in America, did you or Mr. Pavic or Mr. Prica have any
2 contacts with him?
3 A. As far as I can remember, we tried to reach him through his
4 girlfriend to see what was going on. I believe that Prica was also in an
5 America at the time. He visited his parents who were in Chicago, and he
6 spent some time in California with priest Djujic and as far as I can
7 remember we were supposed to send a delegation -- actually, we were
8 supposed to attend that meeting with the people from the political
9 establishment of the USA, with anybody who showed inclination to see us,
10 and Daniel Snedden and Prica were supposed to prepare -- prepare all
11 those meetings for us.
12 Q. Mr. Lucic, I am going to ask you something. I have a document,
13 but we will see it later. Before he went to America, did Mr. Snedden
14 have any contacts with the Serbs in Croatia?
15 A. Yes. In Rijeka in Croatia, his wife Jeremica [phoen] was
16 visiting with his relatives and I believe that he was in contact with
17 pilot Ostojic who was in a state of panic just like the other Serbs
18 because of what was going on in Croatia, because nationalism had become
19 the state policy over there, and fear spread among the Serbs. And I
20 believe that he was either a pilot or an officer who had worked in Zemun
21 in the air force command.
22 Q. You mean the army of Yugoslavia?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness please be
24 asked not to overlap.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Lucic, can we now look at --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, a pause between question and answer, and
3 between answer and question.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
5 apologise. I was full of promise for a new life, but to no avail it
6 seems, but I'll do my best.
7 Q. Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D418, paragraph 2. This document
8 should not be broadcast. Let's look at the first page of the document,
9 which is a report.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually, for the benefit of the
11 witness, could we please go into private session just for a moment.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 15626 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Lucic, before we come to the moment when Mr. Snedden returned
1 from America, let us look at another document, 2D416, paragraph 2. This
2 is a non-redacted document. Its translation is under 2D416. It is the
3 translation of the redacted document.
4 You mentioned an officer from Rijeka in Croatia, and you -- I
5 believe that you said that his family name was Ostojic; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you -- were you aware of the nature of contacts that
8 Mr. Snedden had with him?
9 A. I assume that Daniel Snedden tried to establish contacts with the
10 army, especially with the officers who hailed from Croatia and who were
11 interested in organising the Serbian people in order to avoid the
12 repetition of -- in order to avoid the repetition of the genocide that
13 had happened during the Second World War.
14 Q. Mr. Lucic, I'm going to interrupt you here. I apologise. I want
15 you to focus on important issues. Look at this document. This is an
16 official note on new findings about Daniel Snedden, and it is stated here
17 that he is in contact with a certain Major Ostojic, who is a pilot on JNA
18 aircraft, and he is an employee of the air force and anti-aircraft
19 defence command in Zemun. Is that the person that you referred to?
20 A. Yes. If I -- if I remember correctly, the commander of the air
21 force was a Croat.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lucic. And now let's go back to another
23 situation. You said that you tried to get in touch with Mr. Snedden
24 while he was America, that you and Pavic and Prica tried to do the same.
25 Did you manage to contact him?
1 A. No. As far as I can remember, we didn't.
2 Q. Do you know that while Mr. Snedden was in America he had contacts
3 with the Serbian diaspora?
4 A. I'm sure that he had contacts with the Serbian diaspora, because
5 that was the underlying idea, the idea underlying his trip. He was
6 supposed to contact the Serbs who were already there in America,
7 especially those who had some weight and influence.
8 Q. Witness, please look at Exhibit 2D707, paragraph 2. You said
9 that you tried to secure something via Daniel Snedden and his trip to
10 America. What was it that you tried to secure?
11 A. We wanted to harness political and financial support for the
12 party that we wanted to create.
13 Q. Witness, sir, I'm going to read an official note to you. The
14 date is 14 February 1991.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid
16 going into private session, I would like to say that the document should
17 not be broadcast. I'm going to skip a name for practical reasons.
18 Q. It says here: "Operative position." It says at the -- and I'm
19 reading from the second paragraph:
20 "At the meeting, he said that the leaders of the newly founded
21 as yet unregistered party the Serbian Democratic Union, Dejan Lucic and
22 Aleksandar Pavic were intensively trying to resolve the problem of
23 finding financial resources for their political activity. In this
24 respect, Pavic reminded Lucic that the two of them ought to urgently get
25 in touch with Daniel Snedden, who is currently in Dallas, USA, to find
1 out whether Daniel had established any relevant contacts with
2 institutions in America who would agree to finance their party."
3 Are the allegations in this official note correct? Are these
4 facts correct?
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 Q. If we look at the following page, page 2, under 3 it says:
7 "Information on hostile activity," and it says:
8 "Dejan Lucic, a citizen of the SFRY, journalist from Belgrade,
9 in -- suspected of having contact with the American service." And then
10 there is a redacted part which the Trial Chamber can see without me
12 Did you know that the security service suspected you as somebody
13 involved in hostile activities in December 1991, did you know that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Mr. Lucic, do you know when Mr. Snedden returned from America?
16 A. He didn't stay long. I can't remember the exact date. That was
17 24 [as interpreted] years ago.
18 Q. Can you give us an approximation as to when that took place?
19 A. As far as I can remember, that was sometime in February, 1991.
20 Q. Did you see Mr. Snedden upon his return from America, and if you
21 did, who else was present at the meeting?
22 A. Pavic, Aleksandar Pavic was present at that meeting, and Snedden
23 told us about his journey to America, that it wasn't successful from the
24 political point of view but that he was hopeful that there would be other
25 attempts more successful than the previous one, because the political
1 situation in the country deteriorated rapidly.
2 Q. Mr. Lucic, on that occasion did he mention contacts with some
3 senators in America?
4 A. Yes. I can't remember the name of the senator that he mentioned.
5 I believe that his name was Wilson. Yes, Wilson.
6 Q. Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D422, paragraph 2. And the English
7 translation is 2D422, and let's look at page 2.
8 Let's look at page 2, paragraph 1. Page 2, please. It's page 2
9 in the English version as well. Somewhere towards the middle it says in
10 actual fact -- actually, this is a report. This is a report about what
11 Daniel Snedden said about his stay in America. After establishing his
12 wish to establish contact with AOS, a meeting had been agreed upon with
13 an American congressman called Charles Wilson, who was very well-known as
14 an anti-Communist and who organised the toppling of Communist regime in
15 many countries. What this report says, does it actually reflect what
16 Mr. Snedden said to you after returning from America?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At some point in time after Daniel Snedden returned from America,
19 did you try to establish contact with this American senator?
20 A. We tried to do that through Snedden and through Prica.
21 Q. Did this meeting ever take place?
22 A. Regrettably, no.
23 Q. After Snedden's return from America, did you receive any
24 invitations from the Serb diaspora, and, if so, what was that all about?
25 A. I received an invitation from people from a small town called
1 Gary. I think that this is near southern Chicago, and a year before that
2 I held a lecture there in the church of Saint Lucas, and the people who
3 originally came from Knin were worried that in their native area there
4 would be another genocide.
5 Q. Did they ask you for something? Did they suggest something?
6 A. Since I'm a journalist and since at that point in time I was a
7 politician as well and I knew quite a few people, they asked me to help
8 them so that they would not be unprepared for a war that was obviously in
9 the making. I had Captain Dragan -- rather, Daniel Snedden there at the
10 time, and he had completed some specialist courses in Australia, and this
11 was basically English training which is characterized by minimum losses
12 in manpower, and I find that to be very important. I said to
13 Captain Dragan that it would be very good if he were to teach the Serbs
14 in the Krajina how to win without losing one's life, because Serbs had
15 been brought up in the wrong way, that it is heroic to die for the
16 Fatherland. That is not true. The point is to win and to survive.
17 Q. Mr. Lucic, tell us, did you take any steps when you received this
18 invitation and, if so, what were they?
19 A. Yes. We went there. Actually, this telephone contact was in
20 January, if I can remember correctly, and then with Pavic and Prica I
21 went to the Knin Krajina and we met some people with the political
22 structures there. As far as I can remember Zdravkovic was there,
23 President of the Municipality of Benkovac, and we said that we came at
24 the request of Serbs from the Knin Krajina who live in Gary near Chicago
25 and we promised that we'd see what we could do to help. After that I
1 think it was in March, in spring, Pavic and I took Captain Dragan,
2 Snedden, to Benkovac and we introduced him to the president of the
3 municipality, Zdravkovic --
4 Q. Let me interrupt you there.
5 A. So you say that this was in the spring of 1991.
6 Q. How did you travel to the Knin Krajina?
7 A. We took my private car when we went there with Captain Dragan.
8 Pavic, Daniel Snedden, and I, that is.
9 Q. Tell me, what was your destination? Where was it that you had
10 set out for?
11 A. We met in front -- actually, we went around 6.30 in the morning
12 to Zdravkovic's house. We rang the doorbell and then he showed up.
13 Q. Are you sure that Zdravkovic was the last name of the president
14 of the Municipality of Benkovac?
15 A. It may have been a slip of the tongue. I cannot remember any
16 more, but we went to see the president of the municipality of Zdravko --
17 of Benkovac.
18 Q. Is it possible that his name was Zecevic?
19 A. Yes. Sorry. Slip of the tongue. Lapsus linguae.
20 Q. What happened when you went to see him in the Municipality of
22 A. Together with him we went to Martic where Captain Daniel Snedden
23 and Martic met. Martic was very mistrustful.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
25 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I was just wondering if we could please
1 have a little bit more foundation. We have something in the spring of
2 1991. If the witness knows approximate time or month.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, if it was a slip of the tongue of the
4 witness, then you made that slip of the tongue in the 65 ter number
5 filing as well, isn't it?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise.
7 Perhaps I did not wish to insist.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's try -- could you be a bit more precise
9 as to the month.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tell you the truth, it's been a
11 long time. It's been 20 years, almost 21 years. It was in 1991 and now
12 it's 2011, and it was spring. It may have been March. We'd have to look
13 at the documents.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that he came from
16 America in mid-March. So that means that we probably went there in
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Lucic, if you cannot remember, it doesn't matter. I will
20 try. 2D424, could we please take a look at that. Point 2. It is an
21 unredacted document. It is a report from the 22nd of March, 1991.
22 Please take a look at this. Actually, page 2. Yes, page 2.
23 On the previous page we see the result of the monitoring of
24 Mr. Aleksandar Pavic's telephone. Could we please not display this to
25 the public. And on page 2 it says that Pavic, on the 19th of March,
1 spoke to Dejan Lucic, and in parentheses it says "redacted," and because
2 of the public we're not going to read what --
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually, Your Honour, maybe it
4 would be better if we moved into private session so that we have this
5 completed, as it were.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 15636-15638 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Lucic, once again did Martin Lynch, Snedden's friend, arrive
4 in Belgrade at one point in time?
5 A. Yes, he did, and I saw him in a bar. I didn't really socialise
6 with him. I did not want to get involved in all that, because that went
7 beyond all those things that I was involved with, and my involvement was
8 with the root political organisation in Serbia.
9 Q. Do you know if Martin Lynch at one point in time left together
10 with Mr. Snedden to the Krajina of Knin?
11 A. As far as I know, that's correct.
12 Q. Do you know if Mr. Martin Lynch participated in the training
13 organised by Daniel Snedden in the Krajina of Knin?
14 A. Yes. As far as I know, they were both involved in that.
15 Daniel Snedden invited me to a film projection featuring a film about the
16 so-called Knindzas that he had established. That was at the Kolarac
17 culture hall. It was a promotional video about that special unit which
18 was a mixed male/female unit. And that unit didn't have such a strong
19 military significance. Its significance was more -- more of the moral
20 kind. At that point in time, Captain Dragan became more popular in
21 Croatia and in Serbia than the patriarch Pavle, the Orthodox leader who
22 had been until then the most revered person in Serbia, more revered than
23 President Milosevic himself. And it seems that President Milosevic had
24 managed to impose himself on the Serbian people.
25 Q. Mr. Lucic, excuse me. I have to interrupt you. We have to focus
1 on what the Defence deems to be relevant in this case.
2 Can we now look at 2D429, paragraph 2. This is the non-redacted
3 version -- version of the document whose translation we will find under
4 2D429. The document should not be broadcast.
5 Earlier on I -- I believe that you mentioned that -- that when
6 Daniel returned from that meeting with Martic that you and Pavic also
7 attended, that he wanted to talk to the association of immigrants.
8 Let's look at paragraph 3 where it says:
9 "On 25th March, 1991, Snedden telephoned the Matica Iseljenika
10 immigrant centre and requested a meeting with Brana Crncevic saying that
11 it was to do with very important things in connection with Serbia. He
12 introduced himself as an immigrant from Australia. We have grounds to
13 suspect that he initiated this contact with the aim of legalising his
14 activity in connection with obtaining and delivering arms to the
15 Knin Krajina."
16 Are you familiar with any of these facts?
17 A. As I have already stated, it would have been very -- absolutely
18 pointless to arm Serbs in the Knin Krajina. It would be tantamount to an
19 attempt to sell fridges to Eskimos.
20 Q. Do you know that he contacted the immigrant centre and
21 Brana Crncevic?
22 A. Yes, he did contact Brana Crncevic, whose nickname at the time
23 was the mother of all immigrants and he was in charge of helping refugees
24 from Croatia who came in big droves. Brana Crncevic was very close to
25 Slobodan Milosevic; they often drank whisky together and during those
1 informal meetings, he imposed his opinions on Milosevic and he influenced
2 him in a way that even his advisor couldn't.
3 Q. Mr. Lucic, could you please look at the following paragraph where
4 it says: "Immediately after that he briefly spoke with
5 Srboljub Milovanov. We can conclude from the contact that Milovanov was
6 briefed on Snedden's activities concerning attempts to obtain arms for
7 the Knin Krajina."
8 First of all, let me ask you this: Do you know who
9 Srboslav Milovanov is?
10 A. He was a member of the SPO. Pavic and Prica remained as members
11 of the SB -- SPO together with Daniel Snedden.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Just slow down because the interpreters are unable
13 to follow your speed of speech. Could you also slow down in speaking.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I just want to use the opportunity on
15 page 64, line 2, it is unclear who the -- in the transcript who
16 Brana Crncevic was very close to. It may have some significance.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think that I heard that it was Milosevic, drinking
18 whisky with Milosevic. Yes. That's now accurately on the -- it is now
19 accurate on the record.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise it was an
21 omission on my part. I heard the same. I didn't react because I didn't
22 notice the omission in the transcript.
23 Q. Mr. Milovanov, in April 1991, what was his position?
24 A. He was an MP on behalf of the Serbian Defence Movement. He was
25 an MP who -- he was very close with Vuk Draskovic.
1 Q. Witness, I believe your words have been interpreted properly but
2 I have to check. You said that he was a member of parliament on behalf
3 of --
4 A. On behalf of the SPO and Vuk Draskovic, the
5 Serbian Renewal Movement. I have to explain. Political organisations in
6 Serbia had their leaders for life, as it were, irregardless of the
7 success of their policies. And being close with political leaders was
8 more important than leadership qualities or wisdom.
9 Q. Mr. Lucic, let's focus on my questions. Let's go to the
10 following paragraph in the same documents where it says on the same day
11 Snedden phoned the Knin SO to ask whether they received the fax he had
12 sent to the chief of the Knin SUP, Martic. He was told that such a fax
13 had not yet arrived. According to the intelligence available -- that's
14 on the following page. I apologise, can we go to the following page?
15 According to the intelligence available, Snedden is using a fax machine
16 at the branch of the GBM Elektronik company at Palmira Toljatija number 5
17 where his mistress, Branka Popovic, is employed. Do you know anything
18 about the telephone conversation to Martic in Knin and about a fax he was
19 supposed to send there?
20 A. No I don't know anything about that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I really have to urge you to slow down because you
22 are going, by far, too quickly. Please proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise once again, Your Honour.
24 Q. My question, but before that, please wait. My question is: Do
25 you know anything about the fax that Mr. Snedden was supposed to send to
1 Mr. Martic at the Knin SUP?
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Part now of the French translation is not
4 complete, Mr. Bakrac. So if you would -- yes. Could you -- I'll slowly
5 read part of what I see in English on the transcript.
6 According to the intelligence available, Snedden is using a fax
7 machine at the branch of the GBM Elektronik company at -- could you
8 please repeat the address?
9 THE WITNESS: You ask me?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Number 5 is there but not the name of the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Palmira Toljatija Street in
13 New Belgrade.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's where his mistress was employed.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branka Popovic, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then you were asked whether you knew anything about
17 the telephone conversation to Martic in Knin and about a fax he was
18 supposed to send there, and you didn't know anything about that. Can we
19 resume from there, Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Lucic, you didn't know anything about the telephone contact
22 and the fax. Did you know if Mr. Snedden had contacts with Mr. Martic?
23 A. Yes. I knew that they were in contact because he tried to
24 accomplish what he started, and the only person with whom he could talk
25 to at an equal military level was Martic, and Martic was supposed to help
1 him to set up that special forces unit as part of the
2 Territorial Defence, not as part of a police station.
3 Q. Mr. Lucic, to speed things along, let's move to the third page in
4 the same document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Bakrac, this witness was
6 scheduled for two hours examination-in-chief. You have now used one hour
7 and 40 -- 40 -- close to 48, 9 minutes, which means 10 minutes left. I
8 looked at the 65 ter summary. I also listened to the testimony. Pages
9 and pages were spent on what seems to be by some [indiscernible] that is
10 to obtain financial and political abroad especially in the United States
11 and but that is expanded with the names of senators and congressman and
12 in all detail. Do you think you could finish in the next 15 minutes,
13 Mr. Bakrac?
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was going to ask you
15 that. Our -- our next witness should take -- was supposed to take three
16 and a half hours. We are prepared to curtail that if you will -- if you
17 allow me to extend the testimony of this witness by half an hour. I
18 wanted to provide a broader picture for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.
19 I'm nearing the end of my examination-in-chief, and I believe another 45
20 minutes would suffice to accomplish that.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac. We will resume at 5 minutes to 6.00,
23 and from that moment you have half an hour, 30 minutes, to finish your
24 examination-in-chief. As you know, we always carefully consider and
25 monitor the way in which the examination takes place, and you didn't give
1 a broad picture. You lost yourself in quite some details, which we had
2 great difficulties in understanding what the relevance of those details
3 for this testimony were.
4 We'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac. Half an hour still available. Please
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Lucic, let's look at page 4 in B/C/S. This is the end of the
11 third page and the beginning of the fourth page in English?
12 A. And what would be my number?
13 Q. We're still on the same document that we had before the break.
14 Maybe you can look at the screen in front of you. Where it says:
15 "On the 29th of March, 1991, Snedden phoned someone called Dragan
16 from Banja Luka." Their dialogue is presented. The story starts with
17 whether Snedden -- or rather Dragan intended to come to Belgrade or not.
18 Snedden asks him if he is still affiliated with the national defence and
19 then Snedden says, "Do you see the situation in Krajina? I am in contact
20 with Martic, the chief of the SUP in Knin."
21 And Dragan answers: "So you were with Martic?"
22 Snedden: "Yes. And the entire leadership there. They are in
23 rather dire straits because they did not receive" --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have the right page in English before us?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we
1 should be on the following page I can see the words "National defence" at
2 the end of this page. I said that we will be reading from the end of the
3 third page and the beginning of the fourth page. I'm already reading
4 from the fourth page in English, and I wish to stay on the same page in
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was also a bit misled by the capital letters
7 for Snedden and not for Dragan in the translation. But perhaps we move
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 Q. Dragan is in minuscules. This is his interlocutor from
11 Banja Luka. Dragan asks: "You were with Martic?"
12 Snedden answers: "And with entire leadership. They are in very
13 difficult situation because they did not receive the assistance that they
14 expected. There seems to be a -- a very tense relationship between
15 themselves and Milosevic, and they feel that Milosevic and the Serbian
16 opposition have turned their backs on them. The situation is really sad.
17 I tried to do something but to no avail. It seems that in Serbia there
18 is -- there is nobody prepared to do something like that. That's why I
19 decided to give it all up and go to Africa. Look at Vuk Draskovic. He's
20 gone completely mad."
21 And Dragan answers: "Forget Draskovic."
22 And then the story continues with the following words: "The same
23 day Snedden called Milos Prica to arrange a joint meeting with
24 Dejan Lucic and Aleksandar Pavic. My question to you, Witness, according
25 to the best of your recollection, was this meeting ever scheduled after
1 the 29th of March, 1991?
2 A. Yes. The meeting was indeed scheduled. However, I would like to
3 draw everybody's attention to the fact that Pavic, Prica, and Snedden are
4 still members of the SPO, because we adhered to the Koran wisdom which
5 says don't throw the dirty water before you are able to obtain new fresh
6 water. Since I -- they remained members of the SPO, and Daniel Snedden
7 tried to use Vuk Draskovic to make a certain -- certain corrections
8 because at the same time Vuk Draskovic established the Serbian Guards.
9 He thought Vuk Draskovic, who was a member of parliament, would be able
10 to do more for the Serbs in Krajina than Daniel Snedden who was just a
11 marginal character in the entire story.
12 Q. What you have just told us was that something that Daniel told
13 you at the meeting?
14 A. No. It was our agreement to use the SPO as a -- a lever, because
15 we thought that there would be a change of situation in the SPO, that
16 people would realise that Vuk Draskovic was not up to the historical
17 moment, and we see from this conversation that Daniel Snedden and Dragan
18 from Banja Luka were of the same opinion, and that was that Vuk Draskovic
19 obviously was not somebody who could be a leader or a statesman in
20 Serbia. He was just an opposition leader and not the number one person
21 in --
22 Q. Mr. Lucic, I have to interrupt you because my time is running up.
23 Kindly tell us whether at that meeting that followed this telephone
24 conversation as you've told us that disappointment, or rather, the
25 statement that we heard in the telephone conversation, was that something
1 that Daniel Snedden conveyed to you as well?
2 A. Yes, he did.
3 Q. Can you remember what he told you at that time?
4 A. He said that he had tried through the immigrants association,
5 through minister Sainovic, through Milovanov, he used all of that to
6 influence Vuk. He tried to establish contact with Vuk Draskovic left,
7 right, and centre in order to create the other side of the bridge. He
8 already had the one-prong bridge leading to Martic but not to the other
10 Q. Do you know whether before he left the Knin Krajina he ever
11 established any contacts, and if he did, with whom?
12 A. I believe that he established contacts through Klara Mandic who
13 was a Jew from some people in Israel. He hoped that the contact that he
14 had managed to establish would lead to the centres of power which would
15 then prevent a bad rerun of the year 1941. I'm talking about the Second
16 World War when Jews, Serbs, and the Roma population perished in great
18 Q. Mr. Lucic, let me stop you there. Do you know how Daniel Snedden
19 went to Krajina? How did that happen, and how come that he stayed there
20 for a longer period of time? Do you know that?
21 A. I can only guess what happened. I can't tell you anything for a
22 fact, because I don't know.
23 Q. Before his departure to Krajina, did the two of you see each
25 A. As far as I can remember, we saw each other, but he only told me
1 that he had found a good wind to take him there. And since I knew that
2 he had established contacts with Klara Mandic, I assumed that that was
3 the wind, the Jewish lobby. And when I saw him on TV with David Zvezda,
4 I was in Germany at the time. I saw him on RTL with David Zvezda or
5 David Star, and then I put two and two together then I realized the name
6 he used Daniel, that was a name quite often used among the Jewish
8 Q. Mr. Lucic, my time is running up. Let's focus. When you saw him
9 on TV where was he? Please make a break. You say you saw him on RTL
10 television, where was he?
11 A. He was in the Knin Krajina.
12 Q. Were there any explanation as to what he was doing there?
13 A. The explanation on TV was that he was the leader of the Knindza
14 men and women who were members of that special unit. Their emblem was a
15 little bear, and he was also presented as a good leader.
16 Q. Mr. Pavic --
17 A. Lucic.
18 Q. Yes, Mr. Lucic. I apologise. Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D431,
19 paragraph 2, which is the unredacted version. The English translation is
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to look at
22 the second page in B/C/S and in English. We're looking at page 2. On
23 page 1 you can see a conversation between Snedden and Lynch. The latter
24 we talked about. And some movements on the following morning. And now
25 let's go to page 2 where we find a conversation with Klara Mandic, it
2 Can we go into private session, Your Honours, because there is a
3 redacted part in the document. I would like to read it. Therefore, I
4 think we should be in private session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 15652-15659 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Mr. Lucic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.
13 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
14 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
15 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours. I don't have many
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
18 Q. Good afternoon. Are you receiving me?
19 A. [In English] Yes.
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Just a couple of subjects. First
21 of all, the Serbian Guard, you mentioned that it was an organisation
22 connected to the Serbian Renewal Movement. What kind of organisation was
23 it in 1991?
24 A. First of all, may I say that this organisation was registered as
25 an NGO, as it is called nowadays. It was a group of citizens and was
1 organised as such by the state -- or, rather, in the state. The
2 Serbian Guard was the militant department of the
3 Serbian Renewal Movement.
4 Q. Thank you. Did it become armed during 1991?
5 A. As far as I know, the Serbian Guard did not have any weapons in
6 Serbia itself or perhaps some minimal quantities so that people could be
7 trained in order to know how some new weapons can be handled, but their
8 training took place around Belgrade, in some forests. And its most
9 important function was political, if I can put it that way, rather than
10 military, because --
11 Q. Mr. -- sorry, can I interrupt you. I want to try to finish
13 Do you know a man called Vukasin Milovic. Was he a member of the
14 staff of the Serbian Guard in 1991?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was he connected in the Serbian Guard in any way?
17 A. I don't know the man.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
19 microphones please be switched off. We can barely hear the witness.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Serbian Guard I knew
21 Branko Vasiljkovic --
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. Okay. Thank you --
24 A. I know Giska Bozovic as well.
25 Q. If you just answer my questions, then we can finish quickly,
1 please. Where did the S -- where did the Serbian Guard receive their
2 weapons from? Could I suggest it was from the 4th of July barracks in
3 Belgrade in 1991?
4 A. That happened later. They got their first weapons out of their
5 own arsenals, because some of them had already had weapons at home.
6 These were some weapons that were of interest to them, like modern
7 automatic rifles --
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. -- American ones, Hecklers, Uzis and so on. As for later on --
10 Q. As for later on -- when did they start receiving weapons from the
11 4th of July barracks, please?
12 A. They started receiving these weapons after two or three months of
13 this game as they were playacting, pretending to be a military unit.
14 Where they got that, I don't know. At any rate, they did not go to
15 Croatia with these weapons. As far as I know, the state disarmed them at
16 the border. The State of Serbia did not allow weapons to be taken to
17 Croatia, and there were plenty of weapons in Croatia anyway. So when
18 they went to Krajina, they --
19 Q. Let me summarise the situation if I can and see if you agree.
20 Towards the end of 1991, the Serbian Guard received weapons from the
21 4th of July barracks, which was under the control of General Simovic; is
22 that correct?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Okay. Let me just simplify that. Did they receive weapons
25 towards the end of 1991 from the 14th [sic] of July barracks?
1 A. As I've already said, I do not know. I heard about that, but I
2 don't know. I don't know myself. I was not present.
3 Q. You heard about that from other members of the
4 Serbian Renewal Movement?
5 A. Renewal, "obnove". Yes. I heard that from people like Beli.
6 Q. Giska?
7 A. Beli and Giska Bozovic.
8 Q. When those people tried to take the weapons through --
9 A. [In English] Sorry, not from the Beli. [Interpretation] I've
10 just made a mistake.
11 Q. When they tried to move through Serbia to Croatia with those
12 weapons, the Serbian MUP stopped them and disarmed them; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct and that is what I've already said. They
14 considered that to be treason on the part of the police.
15 Q. Was the Serbian Guard eventually broken up through the efforts of
16 the Serbian MUP who kept disarming the members?
17 A. The Serbian Guard was broken up because it did not want to fit
18 into the concept of Territorial Defence. It acted independently, and
19 they were insufficiently trained in the Knin Krajina near Gospic, I
20 think. So its military leaders got killed, and soldiers returned home
21 disappointed. Some individuals stayed in the Serb Krajina, the
22 Knin Krajina, and joined the units that were led by Babic as the
23 political leader and Martic as the military leader.
24 Q. And who was instrumental in breaking them up? Was it the Serbian
1 A. What I heard, I mean I was not out there in the field, was that
2 the Serb MUP was against the Serbian Guard for two reasons. One was the
3 fact that these people who went there without sufficient training could
4 get carried away by the situation in the field, appalled by the crimes of
5 the Croatian military, and they could have reacted spontaneously by
6 committing crimes themselves. The reason was that the regime of
7 Slobodan Milosevic did not want a political party to have an army of its
8 own because that could destabilise them.
9 Q. And we've heard about the knowledge that you have concerning them
10 receiving weapons from the 14th of July barracks. Did they also receive
11 training through the same military structures?
12 A. Probably not, because at that time in Serbia all the men served
13 in the military and they therefore had basic military training. As far
14 as I know the Serbian Guard had some foreigners who trained the guard in
15 modern warfare techniques.
16 Q. Who organised that, the Serbian Renewal Movement?
17 A. The foreigners were organised by the Serbian Renewal Movement,
18 but probably all of that could not have happened if from the shadow they
19 did not have the support of military security structures.
20 Q. So to -- to summarise, from what you saw, the Serbian MUP was
21 against the Serbian Guard but the military structures gave them a degree
22 of support.
23 A. Absolutely. Absolutely correct.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, another subject and then this is my -- then I
25 can finish.
1 You --
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for
3 interrupting my colleague, but I don't think that the interpretation is
4 right. On page 86, lines 2 and 3.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about -- you told us about that there
6 was some foreigners who trained the Serbian Guard in modern warfare
7 techniques, then you were asked:
8 "Who organised that, the Serbian Renewal Movement?"
9 And then you answered:
10 "The foreigners," at least that's how its translated, "were
11 organised by the Serbian Renewal Movement --" yes. Please correct me
12 when this was wrongly understood.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Serbian Renewal
14 Movement brought these foreigners in but that could not have happened
15 without the permission of the military.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is corrected. Please proceed,
17 Mr. Jordash.
18 MR. JORDASH:
19 Q. You testified today at page 78 that Dragan was offered the rank
20 of reserve captain in the Territorial Defence. Do you know who offered
21 him that rank?
22 A. I assume it was Negovanovic.
23 Q. And from what you've said, he was less than happy with that offer
24 and felt that he deserved something more. Would you agree with me that
25 he was extremely angry and felt devalued with that offer?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. Captain Dragan -- Captain Dragan was
2 actually a brand. His function was not of a military nature. Anybody
3 could have taught those soldiers how to wage war, anybody who had that
4 kind of knowledge. He was a brand. He was a symbol, as it were, and
5 symbols cannot --
6 Q. Thank you. Did he get into an argument or a long-running
7 argument with General Simovic? Are you able to testify to that?
8 A. He was in an argument with all military structures,
9 General Simovic included. Because he was ridiculed, ignored, put down.
10 These military persons did not understand that marketing was more
11 important than cannons, than the force of weapons.
12 Q. Did you during this time when he fell into these arguments with
13 the military structures, did you hear him begin to assert his alleged
14 connection with the Serbian DB?
15 A. Let me explain that after the Second World War Tito organised a
16 security service within which there was the military security and state
17 security, and --
18 Q. Sorry to interrupt. We know a lot of this, because we've been
19 here for two long years. Could you just answer the question. Did you
20 ever hear him assert during this time, during the time when he was in
21 this confrontation with the military structures, that he was connected
22 somehow to the Serbian DB?
23 A. He was scaring the army with the DB in order to make them do what
24 he wanted them to do, because he knew that there was always an antagonism
1 Q. Just elaborate a little bit on that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I said that would I need five minutes.
3 You stay well within your time, but --
4 MR. JORDASH: I can finish this tomorrow with Your Honour's
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then you would need?
7 MR. JORDASH: Two to three minutes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Two to three minutes.
9 MR. JORDASH: If I can say five just in case.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'd rather not leave the matter -- let's
11 say five just to be very generous, Mr. Jordash.
12 But first I would invite the witness to already leave the
13 courtroom, but, Mr. Lucic, you are instructed that you should not speak
14 with anyone -- could you please keep your -- could you please -- yes.
15 Before you leave, I would like to give you a few instructions.
16 You should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever way
17 with anyone about your testimony, that is testimony already given today
18 or testimony still to be given tomorrow or perhaps even the day after
19 tomorrow. Is that clear? Because we'd like to see you back tomorrow
20 morning --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- at 9.00 in this same courtroom. Then you may
23 follow the usher.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, one very practical matter. The Chamber
2 is not considering to ask for an additional medical report before the
3 scheduled one on Friday. The Chamber received information that the
4 present condition of Mr. Stanisic is such that we should not expect him
5 to be back in court this week.
6 MR. JORDASH: My -- I'm only hesitating because obviously I
7 received requests from -- or inquiries from those who know Mr. Stanisic
8 in -- in Serbia concerning his health, and --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see your point. This should not prevent
10 either Mr. Stanisic or yourself from seeking information from -- from his
11 treating doctors, but of course as you know, we usually rely on reporting
12 doctors, and I think the first step to be taken is that you find out, to
13 the with Mr. Stanisic and those who treat him, what is the situation.
14 If by tomorrow if you're unable to find out anything further,
15 we'll further consider, but our information is that he'll not be
16 available in court most likely this week.
17 MR. JORDASH: Yes. The information I have is that he's been
18 taken to the prison UNDU hospital.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not aware of that.
20 MR. JORDASH: That's all I know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is not.
22 MR. JORDASH: But I should inform Your Honours that I am not able
23 to speak to his treating doctors, because the Registry won't let me.
24 They'll let me put questions but not to actually speak to them directly.
25 So --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Also not in the presence of Mr. Stanisic.
2 MR. JORDASH: And not even in the presence of Mr. Stanisic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the doctors have told Mr. Stanisic
4 what -- why they took him to hospital.
5 MR. JORDASH: I -- I would hope they have. Whether Mr. Stanisic
6 follows that completely, I don't know. Whether he's in a fit state to
7 follow that, I don't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I.
9 MR. JORDASH: Whether I can speak to him now, I don't know.
10 Well, I can't speak to him now; it's 7.00.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You also know that the primary responsibility for
12 the health care of Mr. Stanisic is in the hands of the Registrar. We are
13 concerned especially when it has an impact on the court proceedings.
14 Well, we know what at present the impact on the court proceedings is and
15 we expect a report, I think, this Friday. Meanwhile we assume that the
16 Registrar will take full responsibility for that medical care. Of
17 course, the medical care administered by -- by the doctors.
18 If there's any matter there remaining, then the Chamber offers
19 its assistance in trying to clarify these issues, but as far as the
20 proceedings at this moment, our information is that the present condition
21 of Mr. Stanisic, without knowing any further details, is such that we
22 should not expect him to be back in court for the coming two days which
23 are scheduled today.
24 If you further need -- if -- if you think that by Chamber staff
25 smoothing your way to access to -- to information which is, of course,
1 important but of a different kind, that is what the medical condition of
2 Mr. Stanisic is, not to say that the Chamber is not interested in that,
3 but of course that is not our primary responsibility unless any matter is
4 raised which makes it our primary responsibility.
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I understand --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. JORDASH: -- and accept completely what Your Honour is saying
8 and we're grateful for the offer.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And again, you may have noticed also last
10 week, questions to be put, et cetera, we do not hesitate. We usually
11 take immediate action when it is for us to take action and we will always
12 assist you.
13 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just to raise with the Chamber on this
16 issue of his medical condition. His medical condition has always been an
17 important factor that the Chamber has considered in its decisions for
18 provisional release, and I see earlier today a decision granting
19 provisional release has come through. I would ask the Chamber to
20 consider overnight whether it would not be prudent for the Chamber to
21 update itself on the medical condition with respect to provisional
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Today a decision granting provisional
24 for Mr. Stanisic?
25 MR. JORDASH: No, I think it's for Mr. Simatovic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's a totally different matter.
2 MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour. It's --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let me say the following: It's -- it's not
4 pure coincidence that one decision has been issued today and not two.
5 That -- let me leave it to that. That -- but I would say that almost
6 goes without saying that ...
7 Then I ask for indulgence of our interpreters. There's a
8 matter -- let me see whether we can wait until tomorrow. Yes, I think we
9 can wait with it until tomorrow. So I had another decision to be read,
10 but I'm not going to steal even more time of those who are already so
11 loyally assisting us in this courtroom.
12 We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow the 14th of
13 December, 2011, at 9.00 in the morning, in Courtroom II. And,
14 Mr. Jordash, of course the waiver issue may be relevant and important for
15 tomorrow as well. So let's see if that has an impact on the proceedings.
16 We stand adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day
19 of December, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.