Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15672

 1                           Wednesday, 14 December 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Stanisic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica

10     Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Mr. Jordash, you wished to raise a preliminary matter, if I'm

13     well informed.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             Yesterday at the close of the court day we had an exchange about

16     the information which had been communicated from the UNDU medical service

17     to the court and to myself, and I think I spoke rather hastily because

18     the conversation made me go back to the questions that were put to the

19     doctor and the answers that we received, and it's my fault for not

20     studying the questions or the answers in more detail once I received

21     them.  But having done that, I am concerned, and for this reason:  Your

22     Honours will remember the questions filed on the 7th of December, 2011,

23     and one of those questions was, and I look at question 3:

24             "What treatment including psychiatric or psychological therapy

25     does Mr. Stanisic receive at the UNDU as opposed to the specialist

Page 15673

 1     treatment received as an outpatient in Dutch hospitals?"

 2             And what evoked that question from the Stanisic Defence was a

 3     request to the Registry for Mr. Stanisic's medical records and the first

 4     batch that arrived only contained medical records relating to his

 5     treatment at specialist hospitals.  We've since received a second batch

 6     but as yet they have not been translated, so I couldn't look at them in

 7     depth.  But in relation to that question, the answer we received on the

 8     9th of December, 2011, was:

 9             "Mr. Stanisic is treated with medication he needs for his medical

10     problems.  When new complaints occur, these will then be examined."

11             And it's that answer which concerns me.  And it concerns me

12     because it doesn't really say anything other than what we know, is that

13     he receives medication for his medical problems.  But it concerns me

14     because I still, having tried to get an answer to this question on

15     several occasions, don't know the answer to this essential question, what

16     happens with Mr. Stanisic in the UNDU in terms of treatment.  Does he

17     receive psychological therapy?  Does he receive psychiatric therapy?

18     Does he receive medication as a regular thing, or does he just see the

19     doctor, have a chat, or whatever?  I just don't know.  And I haven't

20     known, I don't think, for the last two and a half years, and it's that

21     which I would like to know so I can discuss that with Mr. Stanisic, and

22     he's instructed me to do that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider how to improve the communication and

24     we'll consider how to do that that might, I'm very cautious, be that the

25     Chamber further inquires with the Registry, but I do agree that if you

Page 15674

 1     ask for whether he receives psychological, psychiatric treatment than to

 2     say he receives whatever he needs is not a real answer.  I tend to agree

 3     with that.  At the same time, of course, one wonders whether Mr. Stanisic

 4     himself could tell you whether he receives any psychological or

 5     psychiatric treatment.  I mean, if he -- I don't know how often he, and

 6     whether he, sees a psychiatrist.  So as a patient myself, I have at least

 7     some idea on what kind of treatment I receive.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So to that extent it's communication, I would say,

10     because if you say I would like to hear what treatment he receives so

11     that I can discuss it with him, I would first of all, of course, ask him

12     what kind of medication he receives and whether it's prescribed by the

13     specialist or whether in addition to that other medication is prescribed

14     by the treating medical officer at the UNDU.  But it's of no use to start

15     discussing this here at this moment.  It clearly is a matter which causes

16     again and again problems and where the smooth communications seems not to

17     have been achieved yet.

18             MR. JORDASH:  And that's -- I mean, I have, and I've repeatedly

19     said this to the Registry - and I say it now - that I'm not on behalf of

20     Mr. Stanisic making any complaint other than it's we would like some

21     information.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes [Overlapping speakers].  If you ask what

23     treatment does he receives and the answer is he receives the treatment he

24     needs, is not very elucidating the situation.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 15675

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  Any other matter?

 2             Now, since we are -- I don't think as a matter of fact that we

 3     have received this morning, let me just check.  I have nothing as far as

 4     waiver is concerned because Mr. Stanisic, and we should put that on the

 5     record, is absent, not surprising in view of the information received

 6     yesterday, but do you have any further.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  No --

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It is at this very moment that Madam Registrar

10     informs me that the waiver has -- a copy of the waiver has arrived.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  I haven't as yet seen that.  So ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'll just put it on the record.  I just

13     received a copy of an ... of an absence-from-court-due-to-illness form.

14     First one signed by Mr. Stanisic, I take it.  It's not very clear but

15     it -- the box is ticked which says, "I'm unable to attend court

16     proceeding on this date due to illness."  The second one has been ticked

17     as well, "I have discussed the with my counsel."  That must then refer to

18     an earlier discussion, I take it.  And then the third box is, "I

19     understand that I have a right to be present at all trial proceedings

20     against me; however, I waive my right to be present in court on this date

21     and give my consent for the proceedings to continue in my absence but in

22     the presence of my counsel."  The second box ticked is a bit of a

23     surprise, that he has discussed it with counsel, but again --

24             MR. JORDASH:  Well, he's discussed -- I think he's discussed it

25     yesterday with Mr. Martin, and today when Mr. Martin called, he was in


Page 15676

 1     the UNDU hospital, but I suspect Mr. Stanisic is referring to the

 2     conversation yesterday which made it quite clear that he was happy for

 3     this witness to be heard in his absence if he couldn't make it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The principal officer says that he confirms

 5     receipt of this -- receipt of this form from the detainee named over at

 6     7.20, I take it that's 7.20 a.m., and there is a date and a signature

 7     there, the date the 14th of December.  Now, the usual form with the UNDU

 8     medical service questions, that is the one usually filled in by the

 9     nurse, is empty which can be explained by the fact that Mr. Stanisic may

10     not be at the UNDU itself at this point.

11             MR. JORDASH:  I think that's right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, having looked at this, would you like

13     to have a -- would you like to have a look at it too?

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, but I'm happy for us to go on while that's

15     being done.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll proceed and at the same time a

17     copy may be given to Mr. Jordash.  Yes.  Thank you.

18             Then any other preliminary matter?  Then I would like to read the

19     decision which I had on my mind to read yesterday, but I'd first like to

20     inquire whether the booth have received copies?

21             It is a decision on the Republic of Serbia request for extension

22     of time to file submissions in relation to protective measures for four

23     witnesses.

24             On the 23rd of November, 2011, the Chamber requested that Serbia

25     be provided with the portions provisionally held in private session of

Page 15677

 1     the transcripts of the witnesses Novakovic, Corbic, Dragicevic, and

 2     Lekovic.  The Chamber invited Serbia to file reasoned submissions within

 3     two weeks of the receipt of the transcripts, identifying which portions

 4     should remain confidential.

 5             On the 13th of December, 2011, Serbia requested additional time

 6     to file its submissions.  The Chamber grants Serbia an extension of four

 7     weeks from the date of this decision, that is the 14th of December, to

 8     file its submissions.  The Chamber encourages Serbia to prepare its

 9     submissions and any possible future requests for protective measures in

10     accordance with the Chamber's decisions of the 3rd of November and the

11     2nd of October -- I have to correct myself.  The decision of the 3rd of

12     November, 2009, and the 7th of October, 2011, and the reasons of the 23rd

13     of November, 2011.  That may reduce the need for the filing of further

14     submissions following testimony in relation to possible future requests.

15             The Chamber instructs the Registry to provide Serbia with the

16     transcript of this oral decision.  And this concludes the Chamber's

17     decision.

18             Then I think there are no further obstacles to continue the

19     cross-examination of the witness.  Could the witness be brought into the

20     courtroom.

21             Has there been any further communication between Prosecution and

22     Defence yesterday about the chart?

23             MR. WEBER:  There has, Your Honour.  However, it's tentative.  I

24     think what the plan is, is to sit down immediately after or shortly after

25     today's session, go through the chart.  There has been some discussion as

Page 15678

 1     to what may be acceptable to include and what our concerns would be, so

 2     the Prosecution look forward -- looks forward to discussing this further

 3     with the Simatovic Defence.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, same optimistic feeling?

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We discussed

 7     that, I have no problem with that.  Even if Mr. Weber were to wait for

 8     the translations of the redacted portions so that he would have a

 9     complete picture with regard to these documents, then we could have this

10     meeting because we asked to have the redacted portions translated too and

11     then we are going to have a complete picture and discuss all of this.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One of the problems is that the witness might have

13     left by the time you -- you are finishing your -- concluding your

14     discussions.

15             Mr. Lucic, it's very impolite to continue talking on other

16     matters when you enter the courtroom.  Good morning to you and apologies.

17     I would like to remind you that --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that you are still bound

20     by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday, that is that you'll

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Mr. Jordash

22     will now continue his cross-examination.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           WITNESS:  DEJAN LUCIC [Resumed]


Page 15679

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning.  I just want to pick up where we left off

 4     yesterday, and I'll remind you what you said yesterday which was, to Your

 5     Honours, page 88 of the draft transcript:

 6             "He, Dragan, was scaring the army with the DB in order to make

 7     them do what he wanted them to do because he knew that there was always

 8     an antagonism there."

 9             Now, I'm not going to suggest any answer to you.  I want you to

10     tell us what precisely you meant by that?

11        A.   Even in Tito's period, this antagonism was created between the

12     army and the police.  Perhaps we can say that it was like a clash between

13     two clans for the love of Tito.  That is how Tito tried to prevent any

14     one of the services betraying him.  The military intelligence service and

15     the State Security Service, perhaps we can put it that way, were hostile

16     to each other as they served the regime.

17        Q.   Did that hostility continue or change after Tito's death, as far

18     as you could see?

19        A.   It did not change.  It had become a mannerism, as it were.

20        Q.   How do you say that Dragan used that antagonism?

21        A.   Yes, as a stick.  He threatened the army that he would seek

22     support from the other force within the state.

23        Q.   Did you speak to him about this?

24        A.   I did not speak about it at the time.  I did later because he was

25     disappointed by the general situation in Serbia which had displayed a

Page 15680

 1     total lack of interest in the Serb's in Krajina except in the media, and

 2     that is something that lulled the people, as it were.  Later on I found

 3     out that Milosevic and Franjo Tudjman communicated all the time as they

 4     kept this war under control, bearing in mind that they did not want to do

 5     anything to destabilise each other, and topple them from their thrones.

 6     That has surfaced in the meantime, their joint misdoings concerning money

 7     laundering.

 8        Q.   You say Dragan threatened the army that he would seek support

 9     from the other force within the state.  Why was that, in his mind, a

10     threat, if you are able to cast any light on that?

11        A.   Because among the people any kind of help given to the Serbs on

12     the other side of the Drina, this led to a surge of good feeling.

13     Soldiers received a salary not only to defend the state, but also the

14     people.  As for Croatian secessionism, it had the backing of Germany and

15     the Vatican.  Later on we found out that Croatian secessionism --

16        Q.   Sorry to interrupt you.  So in sum, the DB or the Serbian MUP

17     would become more popular than the military security, and that was the

18     stick Dragan was using against the military to force them to do what he

19     wanted them to do?

20        A.   Yes.  The people thought that the military intelligence service

21     recruited its personnel in a stupid way.  I'll explain why.  The entire

22     civil war could have been done and over with, or rather, prevented

23     altogether through an operation of the military intelligence service in

24     Ljubljana and Zagreb, and for this they had the support of America.

25        Q.   Sorry, can you just try to crystallise what you are trying to say

Page 15681

 1     in relation to Dragan and the threat.  Just crystallise it in two to

 2     three sentences.  We know you know a lot but we are interested in this.

 3        A.   People who were in charge of security and the army would have

 4     lost their jobs under the pressure coming from public opinion.  Milosevic

 5     was popular in Serbia and any failure of the military intelligence

 6     services and the military as such would be held against him.  In this

 7     way, he would have reduced his chances at some future elections.  So he

 8     was careful.  He took into account the public opinion as such.  All the

 9     time Milosevic pretended to help the Serbs in Krajina but it was play

10     acting rather than reality.

11        Q.   Sorry, could you just bring it back to Dragan, please.

12        A.   Yes.  Dragan took advantage, or rather, tried to take advantage

13     of this rift and he tried to threaten the military officers and he said

14     that he would do away with their reputation by turning to the police, and

15     they were a lesser force compared to the military because they had only

16     short-barreled weapons.

17        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you very much.

18             MR. JORDASH:  I've got nothing further.

19             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Could you just repeat your last comment, please.

22        A.   I said that the police did not have long-barrelled weapons and

23     that it was not a military force that could participate in a war, as

24     opposed to the army which, through the support of the United States of

25     America, after the conflict with Stalin, became one of the best armies in


Page 15682

 1     Europe.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS:  The pleasure is mine.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

 5             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lucic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 8     Mr. Weber.  Mr. Weber is at the other side of the courtroom and he is

 9     counsel for the Prosecution.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask the Defence counsel to

11     help me in terms of documents.  When referred to certain documents I

12     should be given some assistance because I have my number 1, 2, 3, and

13     when Defence counsel says it's number 6 or 7, then perhaps I can refer to

14     it so that I know exactly what it is that I had said.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take care that there will be no confusion as

16     to documents your attention will be drawn to.  Most likely they will be

17     on your screen.

18             Mr. Weber.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

20        Q.   Good morning, sir.

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22        Q.   Just picking up where the Stanisic Defence was discussing with

23     you, when did Captain Dragan tell you that he was scaring the army with

24     the DB?

25        A.   He said that the army was afraid of its reputation being put in

Page 15683

 1     danger because Captain Dragan --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- was a prominent figure.

 4             Your Honours, I was listening to the Serbian interpretation and

 5     there was a misinterpretation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You repeat your question, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Sir, when did Captain Dragan tell you that he was scaring the

 9     army with the DB?  I'm asking you for a date.

10        A.   I don't recall that exactly.  I said that he told me at a later

11     point when the fuss was over, perhaps a fortnight later, and we were not

12     in constant contact.  I was engaged in lecturing abroad before the

13     Serbian audience abroad.

14        Q.   Sir, my questions will be pretty precise, if you could please

15     listen to them carefully and respond to what I'm asking.

16             When were you engaging abroad before the Serbian audience?  When

17     was that?

18        A.   That was from the spring of 1991, May.  I gave lectures in

19     Switzerland, Germany, Vienna, Paris -- no, Paris had been earlier, so

20     Switzerland and Germany.

21        Q.   What exactly did Captain Dragan tell you about what he said to

22     the army about the DB?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could we get a complete answer to your

24     last question.

25             You said it was from the spring of 1991, May.  How long were you

Page 15684

 1     abroad?  Until when?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went and came back.  I would give

 3     a lecture or two, spend a week abroad and then return.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And this continued until when approximately?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It continued until 1992 when I

 6     could no longer go abroad because the army proclaimed that if anyone

 7     wanted to leave, they had to report to the army first, and as a persona

 8     non grata - I am sorry, this is important - I was afraid to be killed in

 9     Vukovar because it seemed that all those who were unfit were sent to

10     Vukovar where many died.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was seeking clarification in terms of time.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Sir, do you recall what Captain Dragan exactly said about his

15     conversations with the army and what he said about the DB?  Do you recall

16     what he said?

17        A.   Well, he used some nasty words, it seems.  He told me he had said

18     some of it to the soldiers and that he threatened them with the police.

19     He said they were unpleasantly surprised with how openly he confronted

20     them and he believed them to be softies.

21        Q.   He believed the army to be softies?

22        A.   The officers, not the army as such.  The officers who were in

23     charge of making decisions.  The top brass of the Yugoslav Army.  I have

24     to say, though, that there were people of different ethnicities, it

25     wasn't a Serbian army but a Yugoslav one, and he thought that

Page 15685

 1     Milosevic --

 2        Q.   Sir, thank you.  And I'll move on.  How many times did you go to

 3     the Krajina with Captain Dragan between January and April 1991?

 4        A.   Only once.  Before that I had gone there alone without Captain

 5     Dragan, with Prica and Pavic.

 6        Q.   Sir, if you could please focus on my questions and this will go

 7     very quickly.  The reports provided by the Defence do not indicate that

 8     you had any contact with Captain Dragan prior to the end of December

 9     1990.  Do you recall precisely when you first met Captain Dragan?

10        A.   Before the elections which took place in December.  I think it

11     must have been in the latter part of October or November 1990.  It's been

12     20 years, you see, and when so many events are occurring in such a short

13     period of time, one quickly loses track and forgets within a month or

14     two.

15        Q.   How many times did you speak with Captain Dragan during the fall

16     of 1990?

17        A.   I really can't say.  Numerous times.  We socialised.

18        Q.   Can you give an approximation of how frequent?

19        A.   I socialised more with Prica and Pavic than with my own wife.  It

20     was a political struggle.  The first parliamentary elections in which we

21     were hoping to topple Milosevic.  We were in the offices of the political

22     party from dusk until late at night.  We gave speeches and were doing

23     something constantly.  It was a historic moment.

24        Q.   Sir, if you could please focus on my questions.  I asked you can

25     you give an approximation of how many frequent you interacted or spoke

Page 15686

 1     with Captain Dragan during the fall of 1990.  I do not see in your

 2     answer -- except for the reference that you socialised more with Prica

 3     and Pavic than my own wife.  Approximately how frequently did you

 4     socialise or interact with Captain Dragan during the fall of 1990?

 5        A.   Well, we interacted daily, basically, unless he was away on his

 6     trips.

 7        Q.   Great.  On page 43 of yesterday's transcript, you were asked the

 8     question:

 9             "In the beginning of 1991, did Daniel Snedden travel somewhere?"

10             You were asked this question on two occasions on yesterday's

11     transcript.  The first time you responded that he, referring to Daniel

12     Snedden, and Pavic went to Thessaloniki unannounced.  The second time you

13     were asked this question, you stated that Captain Dragan went to the

14     United States on your instructions.  Is it correct that you are

15     describing two different trips?

16        A.   Yes, two different trips.  One to Solun and the other --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me be more precise:  He didn't

19     go to the US on my instruction, he went there on his own business.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Sir, if you can please focus on my questions, and again yes, no

22     if it calls for it, or I don't know.  Which one of these trips happened

23     first?

24        A.   I think he went to the US first.

25        Q.   How much time was there between the two trips?

Page 15687

 1        A.   I really can't recall.

 2        Q.   When did he travel to Greece and for how long?

 3        A.   He stayed for a few days until the weather improved and Pavic

 4     came shortly afterwards the next day or thereabout by train.

 5        Q.   On how many occasions did Captain Dragan travel to the United

 6     States between January and April 1991?

 7        A.   Once as I recall.

 8        Q.   When did he travel to the United States, and for how long?

 9        A.   I already said I don't remember.

10        Q.   You have no idea what month this occurred or for what duration,

11     whether it be a day or three weeks that he was gone while you were in

12     contact with him on a daily basis?

13        A.   If you focus more on my answers, please focus on what I'm saying.

14     I was in standing contact with him at the time of the elections in 1990.

15     In 1991 we were no longer in daily contact.

16        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.

17        A.   The pleasure is mine.

18        Q.   On page 44 of yesterday's transcript, you discussed the

19     establishment of a new political party, the Serbian Democratic Union.

20     You stated that:

21             "Our contact person was supposed to be Daniel Snedden because he

22     had the opportunity to travel and establish contacts in an unhindered way

23     in the United States of America."

24             Is it correct that you left the SPO before Captain Dragan

25     travelled to the United States?

Page 15688

 1        A.   I left the SPO in early January 1991.

 2        Q.   Was this before Captain Dragan travelled to the United States?

 3        A.   I think so.

 4        Q.   On page 38 of yesterday's transcript you stated:

 5             "Captain Dragan communicated with Vuk Draskovic and the latter's

 6     political team.  According to his estimate he defined them as soft, as

 7     soft people who were not up to the political situation at hand and the

 8     demands that were ahead of us."

 9             On page 45 you were asked about the contents of your Serbian DB

10     report that stated:

11             "We can conclude that he is basically dissatisfied with the

12     positions of the SPO because he," referring to Captain Dragan, "says that

13     the leadership of that party are a group of soft people who don't know

14     what they want."

15             When did you hear Captain Dragan call the leadership of the SPO

16     soft?

17        A.   It was a general view.  It doesn't necessarily mean that he

18     uttered it and then I remembered it.  It was my view as well and Pavic's

19     and Prica's.  We thought they were not up to the task and it was almost a

20     mantra of sorts.  They didn't seem to be up to the requirements of the

21     time.

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, lines 16 and 17, the

23     witness added another name which is not reflected in the transcript.

24     Perhaps we can clarify with the witness as to whose opinion it was.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pavic, Prica, I had the same view

Page 15689

 1     as well as many others, including Daniel Snedden.  It was a mantra of

 2     sorts.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   Sir, do you have any independent recollection of Daniel Snedden,

 6     Captain Dragan, saying that the SPO leadership was soft?  Him actually

 7     having a conversation with you about that?

 8        A.   We talked constantly, even before the elections.  Our position

 9     had been crystallised before the elections in December so it was in

10     October and November of 1990.  Serbia at the time needed a statesman, not

11     a politician; whereas, Vuk Draskovic was merely a good politician

12     and/orator.

13        Q.   Is that a yes, that you do have a recollection of Captain Dragan

14     telling you this?

15        A.   You are suggesting an answer which is not very nice, sir.  I

16     cannot say recalling that at this or that time by raising his eyebrow

17     Captain Dragan said this or that thing.  It was a general view.  We were

18     in consensus and we repeated it often all of us, and it would be strange

19     for me to remember any single such occasion.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked whether you discussed it during your

21     conversations, whether you have a recollection of that, and then you

22     started answering that you talked constantly, which is not a very direct

23     answer.  So do I understand that in your conversations with

24     Daniel Snedden, he at least once, if not more times, said that the SPO

25     leadership was soft?  Is that how I have to understand?

Page 15690

 1             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  And let's try not to comment on the

 3     questions put to you and how nice it is.  If you have any problem,

 4     address me.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in line 24, there is

 8     no answer to your question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean that the witness seemed to agree with my

10     suggestion that if that would be any problem -- yes --

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, he nodded and

12     apparently said something but in English.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think he said -- well, he agreed, let's move

14     on and Mr. Weber, you are the first one to do that.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   On page 55 of yesterday's transcript, you stated:

17             "We went there, actually this telephone contact was in January,

18     if I can remember correctly.  And then with --"

19        A.   Between Captain Dragan and myself?

20        Q.   Sir, let me finish my question, please.  Your quote was:

21             "We went there, actually this telephone contact was in January,

22     if I remember correctly.  And then with Pavic and Prica we went to the

23     Knin Krajina and we met some people with the political structures there.

24     As far as I can remember, Zdravkovic was there.  The president of the

25     municipality of Benkovac."

Page 15691

 1             Mr. Bakrac then corrected you and suggested that this person's

 2     name is Zecevic.  Do you recall the first name of the president of the

 3     municipality of Benkovac?

 4        A.   As far as I remember his first name is Zdravko, that's why I said

 5     Zdravkovic.

 6        Q.   What month did you have this meeting?

 7        A.   I think it was in January.

 8        Q.   You stated that:

 9             "We met some people with the political structures there."

10             Who else did you meet with and where did this meeting occur?

11        A.   The meeting was held at the monastery on the Krka waterfalls.  I

12     forgot what the name of the monastery is.

13        Q.   Who was present at this meeting besides yourself, Pavic, and

14     Prica?

15        A.   There was another man from the security service, and I think

16     there was someone there from the monastery.

17        Q.   Was the person from the security service Dusan Orlovic?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Do you know Dusan Orlovic?

20        A.   It doesn't ring a bell.

21        Q.   Who was this other man from the security service?

22        A.   It was a tall man.  I think he was a policeman with the Croatian

23     MUP.  A Serb.

24        Q.   Do you recall his name?

25        A.   I don't.  He was unimportant.

Page 15692

 1        Q.   Do you say that because this individual did not say much during

 2     your meeting?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Between January and April 1991, how many phone conversations did

 5     you have with Captain Dragan?

 6        A.   Many.

 7        Q.   Would you say that you were in regular phone contact with him?

 8        A.   When I was in Serbia.  I did say that I went abroad to lecture.

 9     Up to what date or between what dates, January and?

10        Q.   Sir, I asked you between January and April 1991, and if I

11     understand correctly, you said that from May 1991 you were travelling?

12        A.   [In English] That's right.

13        Q.   Mr. Lucic, Mr. Simatovic is a personal friend of yours; correct?

14        A.   [Interpretation] He is not a personal friend.  He is a classmate

15     but I have many classmates.

16        Q.   Approximately how often did you see Franko Simatovic between 1989

17     and 1991?

18        A.   We lived on the same street.  My father and daughter were in

19     Svetozar Markovic Street and I lived nearby.  I frequently came to his

20     street and would meet him once or twice a year or so, and then we would

21     just sit down, have a drink, or wave at each other in passing.

22        Q.   Approximately how often did you talk with Franko Simatovic by

23     telephone between 1989 and 1991?

24        A.   I don't remember any telephone conversations with him.

25        Q.   Jovica Stanisic is also a personal friend of yours; correct?

Page 15693

 1        A.   Together with some other 600 classmates, colleagues from the

 2     school of journalism.  In our terms, a friend is someone who comes to

 3     your patron saints celebration, but he never attended any of mine or I of

 4     his, especially in view the fact that he doesn't celebrate his patron

 5     saints day.

 6        Q.   You also knew Jovica Stanisic between 1989 and 1991; correct?

 7        A.   I knew him back from the university but we also knew

 8     Franjo Tudjman's son because we happened to have attended the same

 9     elementary school.

10        Q.   We'll come to that in a moment.  Did you know that

11     Franko Simatovic and Jovica Stanisic were employed by the Serbian State

12     Security Service prior to 1991?

13        A.   I did know that.  Before 1991, yes, I knew, and everyone else in

14     Belgrade knew.

15        Q.   Are you saying that everyone else in Belgrade knew that -- who

16     Franko Simatovic was and that he was a member of the Serbian DB prior to

17     1991?

18        A.   Well, yes, you are right.  Well, it wasn't that widely known

19     before 1991.

20        Q.   Do you claim that this past Monday was the first time you learned

21     the Serbian DB conducted operative processing on you between 1989 and

22     April 1991?

23        A.   Yes, I learned about it for the first time.

24        Q.   Is it correct that in all of the reports that you were shown by

25     the Defence that none of your contacts with Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Stanisic

Page 15694

 1     were reflected in those documents?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   I apologise for asking you a negative and then you responding

 4     with a negative, so if we could just -- as I understand your answer, the

 5     reports do not contain any references to your contacts with the accused,

 6     do I understand that correctly?

 7        A.   No, no.  When I met with Franko I discussed what I was writing at

 8     the time.  I was writing Pavlovic's testimony -- testament at the time,

 9     and since he was a communist, I was trying to indoctrinate him of sorts

10     with my ideas of anti-communism because I believe it to be the opium for

11     the people.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, there seems to be a confusion.  What

13     Mr. Weber asked you is whether the documents that were shown to you by

14     the Defence, whether those documents do not contain any reference to your

15     contacts with the accused.  So not about whether you had any contacts

16     with the accused, but whether that's reflected in any of the documents

17     shown to you by the Defence.  That's the question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could see that I was subjected to

19     DB treatment.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which is not a direct reference to contact

21     with Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Stanisic, but rather with the DB.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any -- please proceed, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Did Franko Simatovic ever tell you that he authorised the

Page 15695

 1     monitoring of your telephone while you were having conversations with

 2     him?

 3        A.   I did not conduct any conversations with him, as I've already

 4     said, and he did not tell me that he was monitoring my telephone calls,

 5     as you had put it.  We never discussed that topic.

 6        Q.   Did either Franko Simatovic or Jovica Stanisic discuss their work

 7     with you?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you speak more directly into the microphone.

11     The interpreters have difficulties hearing you.  So could you then repeat

12     your answer to the question, whether either Franko Simatovic --

13             THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]

14             JUDGE ORIE: -- or Jovica Stanisic discussed their work with you.

15     The answer is no.

16             Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   In 1991 did either Franko Simatovic or Jovica Stanisic discuss

19     their interactions with Captain Dragan with you?

20        A.   [In English] No.

21        Q.   Do you know Dragan Filipovic?

22        A.   I think I met him once when we sat at this tavern called

23     Mala Madera [phoen] together with Franko.

24        Q.   When did this occur?

25        A.   To tell you the truth, I know the weather was nice.  I know that

Page 15696

 1     we were sitting outdoors.  I can't remember exactly when it happened.  It

 2     was the spring of 1991.

 3        Q.   Do you recall how Dragan Filipovic introduced himself to you?

 4        A.   He said that his nickname was Fica and he said that he was

 5     Franko's assistant or associate.

 6        Q.   It was your understanding based on that introduction that Fica

 7     was a subordinate of Mr. Simatovic; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   From this interaction that you had with Fica, did you realise

10     that Fica knew a lot about you?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   From the reports that the Defence showed you, did you learn that

13     it was Dragan Filipovic who was the one that was conducting the

14     monitoring of you between December and April -- December 1990 and April

15     1991?

16        A.   I saw that from the signatures in the documents.

17        Q.   Did you ever work with Franko Simatovic or Jovica Stanisic or for

18     them?

19        A.   No, I did not.  No, I did not.

20        Q.   Have you ever been an official source or associate of the Serbian

21     DB?

22        A.   No, I was not.

23        Q.   Have you ever received any payments from the Serbian DB, whether

24     it be for salary, per diems, or monetary compensation for any

25     information?

Page 15697

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Have you ever made any payments to a member of the Serbian DB for

 3     information?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   As a journalist, did you ever see any media reports that

 6     mentioned either Mr. Simatovic or Mr. Stanisic prior to 1992?

 7        A.   I do not recall.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that you have publicly relied on your friendships

 9     with the accused to sell your books over the past 17 years?

10        A.   Yes.  Marketing, all of it.

11        Q.   Aside from your four fiction novels, have you always published

12     what you know to be the truth or have you published what can be

13     considered propaganda?

14        A.   Yes, there are four novels and the rest are non-fiction and

15     historiography that apply the method of quotation from other books and

16     from the Internet and this involves footnotes with proper references.

17        Q.   Am I to understand correctly that aside from your four fiction

18     novels that you are asserting that what you published to be the truth?

19        A.   Yes, of course I'm trying to say that it's the truth.  In

20     addition to these books with quotes, there were other books that are in

21     the field of investigative journalism, that is to say investigating

22     crime.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6329 for the

25     witness.

Page 15698

 1        Q.   Mr. Lucic, do you recognise this interview dated 23 December 2009

 2     which is posted on your website

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that this interview related to a book that you

 5     published entitled: "The Conspiracy Theory," which, according to you, is

 6     "a manual as to how to create your own secret society, how to infiltrate

 7     political parties, conquer them from within, and become a new caliph in

 8     the place of the existing one."  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   The word caliph, is that a reference to a head of state of an

11     Islamic community or empire?

12        A.   Yes.  Correct.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the

14     English translation and page 2 of the B/C/S.

15        Q.   Mr. Lucic, during this interview you were asked:

16             "Do you have reliable sources?  Who is assisting you?"

17             Your answer:

18             "Some people think that police has nothing better to do than

19     provide information for writers!  Do you really think that there is

20     anyone within the secret service who knows what I'm writing about?!  Do I

21     know some intelligence officers?  Of course.  Frenki Simatovic is my

22     classmate.  I know him for 52 years.  Jovica Stanisic is also a friend of

23     mine.  We studied political science together.  I also went to school with

24     Miroslav Tudjman, who is very wise man, but his father attacked me in his

25     book "Polovina raspuca."

Page 15699

 1        A.   Historical.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 3             Yes.

 4             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just not to confuse the

 5     witness, the interpretation was that Franko Simatovic was a colleague of

 6     his, whereas I see that the original says "schoolmate," "classmate."  I'm

 7     just trying to prevent any kind of confusion.  The interpretation the

 8     witness received said "colleague" rather than "schoolmate" or

 9     "classmate."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  At least that is your recollection.  We could verify

11     that whether it was translated to the witness as colleague where the

12     original doesn't say "classmate."  The original -- well, the original

13     translation says "classmate" which, of course, is not yet the original.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour the original is correct.

15     The written translation is correct.  The interpretation he received in

16     his headphones was wrong.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes, we usually verify with the interpreters

18     what is right and what is wrong, but if it was translated as "colleague"

19     then that may have created some confusion if "classmate" would be the

20     right -- would be the right translation.

21             Could I hear from the B/C/S booth, and I have then to switch to

22     6.  Yes.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  [No interpretation].

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that is --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also need to add something for

Page 15700

 1     the sake of history.  The book written by Franjo Tudjman was not called

 2     "Polovina" as it says here, but "Povjesna raspuca."  So it was a

 3     crossroads of history.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to get back to where we were.

 5     Mr. Weber read a portion of this interview to you.  I think he made a

 6     small mistake in quoting the question, which was not "do you have

 7     reliable sources," but "do you have reliable police sources" who is

 8     assisting you.  I think now we have a perfect view on what it says here,

 9     and now Mr. Weber is going to put a question to you.

10             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour, for the correction.

11        Q.   Was Mr. Simatovic, Mr. Stanisic, or Franjo Tudjman's son Miroslav

12     a source for your book entitled "The Conspiracy Theory"?

13        A.   No, they were not.  I was not no contact with them in relation to

14     that book.

15        Q.   Is it correct that you have known Mr. Simatovic since you were

16     both nine years old?

17        A.   That is not correct.  We have known each other since the time we

18     were both seven years old.  We went together to elementary school.

19        Q.   Thank you for correcting my math.  Slobodan Rajh is a kum or best

20     man of Franko Simatovic; correct?  Rajh spelled R-a-j-h.

21        A.   I see here is the English -- what does it say here, thank you --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please, there's no --

23             THE WITNESS:  Slobodan Rajh -- what is this?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need to read the transcript.  It's

25     important that you answer.

Page 15701

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether Slobodan Rajh is a kum or

 3     best man for Simatovic.  That was the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he is his kum.

 5     I don't know what kind of relationship the two of them have.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Is it correct that you have known Mr. Stanisic since he attended

 8     school of political science in Belgrade in the early 1970s?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   When did you last talk to Franko Simatovic?

11        A.   A few years ago.

12        Q.   When did you last talk to Mr. Stanisic?

13        A.   2008 I think it was, at his home.  I took him a book as a

14     present, and then he asked me, "Lucic, where did you get all that

15     information?"  I laughed and said, "Don't ask me, everybody has been

16     saying that you've been providing me with this information."  The trick

17     is that the book is full of all kinds of information that is history

18     based, and the police cannot help me with that because they do not deal

19     with history.

20        Q.   You've also been saying that they've been providing you with

21     information; correct?

22        A.   No, I did not say that.  I said that by way of a joke.  And when

23     I took him the book and he asked me where did you get all this

24     information, and I laughed, smiled, said why are you asking because

25     everybody has been saying that you've been providing me with information.

Page 15702

 1     The book is full of quotations, and I know exactly which quotation comes

 2     from which book.  In the Serbian language or from newspaper articles,

 3     this is the history of Khazars for instance, from the mid-8th century

 4     until the 20th century.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  The Prosecution at this time tenders 6329 into

 6     evidence, the article before the Chamber, as a public exhibit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6329 will receive number P3053, Your

10     Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6336.

13        Q.   Sir, before you is going to be appearing an article in interview

14     from 25 November 1994 entitled:  "Mysteries of Everyday Life.  The Rise

15     of Dejan Lucic.  The Elite in the Underworld."  Did you provide this

16     interview in 1994?

17        A.   Which newspaper is this that carried this?

18        Q.   It was "Intervju"?

19        A.   Who is the author?  Who is the author?

20        Q.   Sir, I'm not --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please, Mr. Lucic, one, I take it that

22     Mr. Weber is considering whether he can find the author.  There's no need

23     to repeat that question, yet.

24             Mr. Weber, do you have the name of an author or is it without?

25             MR. WEBER:  Offhand, I do not see it on this first page.  I can

Page 15703

 1     further check.  We might have information about it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Sir, my question to you, though:  This purports to be an

 5     interview with you containing your statements.  So even without knowing

 6     the author, do you recall providing this interview in 1994?

 7        A.   I do not recall.

 8        Q.   This interview quotes you as saying:

 9             "Now that people have given me that opportunity, I enjoy playing

10     with this image."

11             Do you recall making that statement, and if so, what people are

12     you talking about?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps before we continue, at the end of this

14     interview a name appears which is Vojislav Tufekcic.

15        A.   Aha, Vojislav Tufekcic.  Now I remember the interview.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then perhaps you resume, Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:  Thank you again, Your Honour.

18        Q.   So, Mr. Lucic, do you now recall providing this interview?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   In the interview, you stated:

21             "Now that people have given me that opportunity, I enjoy playing

22     with this image."

23             What people are you referring to?

24        A.   Who am I referring to?

25        Q.   That's what I'm asking you, sir?

Page 15704

 1        A.   This interview was given in 1994 when my book was published.

 2     Since Vuk Draskovic, after he lost the election in 1990, launched a story

 3     to the effect that I was a spy, then I thought that it could not be

 4     helped, I could not get rid of this label that was placed on me.  It's

 5     just like when somebody is said to be gay, the more he keeps saying that

 6     he is not, the more everybody is convinced that he is in a Christian

 7     environment.  So I turned this into a marketing trick and I wrote a book

 8     in the field of espionage.  In his book called "Target" that was written

 9     by Vuk Draskovic, who is part of the government to this day, he wrote

10     that I was a secret service agent.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again there is a

12     mistake in the transcript.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that you would like to verify the

14     translation.  Please do so.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the witness kindly repeat what

16     Mr. Lucic said; what did Vuk Draskovic accuse him of?  For which secret

17     service was he working?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vuk Draskovic in his book

19     "The Target," and he has a wife who is the main intelligence person

20     within the political party, he wrote this book, published in a huge

21     number of copies, about two years ago --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We are not seeking additional answers.  We are just

23     seeking to verify whether the translation was accurate and complete.  You

24     said:

25             "He wrote that I was a secret service agent."

Page 15705

 1             Was there anything more you said?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military secret service agent.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

 6     and page -- B/C/S, actually, and English translation.

 7        Q.   Directing your attention to the far left column, four paragraphs

 8     from the top of this page.  This article states in part:

 9             "Regarding speculations that he wrote the secrets of the Albanian

10     Mafia with the help of his next door neighbour Jovica Stanisic, head of

11     the Republic's Security Service, he says with apparent calm, 'Jovica

12     Stanisic is our and their colleague.  If I am to be blamed for knowing a

13     lot of people, I can live with that.'"

14             Was Jovica Stanisic also your neighbour, and if so, for how long?

15        A.   Yes, he was my neighbour at Banjica, and our children went to

16     elementary school together for I don't know how long exactly.  I cannot

17     remember now.  I was there until 1990 for a year, for a few years.  I

18     don't know when Jovica was given another apartment and when he moved.

19        Q.   Please let me know if I have it correct.  You were neighbours

20     prior to 1990 then for a few years?

21        A.   I moved to that apartment in Banjica during my first marriage in

22     1983 and I lived there until 1990 until I got divorced.  Then

23     Jovica Stanisic lived in the next door building, and as a child I lived

24     in the street Svetozar Markovica [phoen] and my neighbours were Franko

25     Simatovic and Miroslav Tudjman.  These are different periods of my life.

Page 15706

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  This passage refers to speculation that you

 2     wrote your book with the help of Jovica Stanisic.  That book being "The

 3     Secrets of the Albanian Mafia."  When did this speculation occur?

 4        A.   Well, these speculations were voiced after 1991, I think, as far

 5     as I can remember.

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Stanisic help you write your book, "The Secrets of the

 7     Albanian Mafia."

 8        A.   I asked for help -- actually, I didn't ask him.  I didn't even

 9     know that he worked for state security.  I went to see Mitrovic who at

10     the time was chief of state security, and during that meeting with

11     Mitrovic, Jovica Stanisic appeared, and I mean, I was surprised but that

12     was in 1988, that's when the book was published.  And Jovica Stanisic,

13     well, this was 1983, at the time, I mean, I did not even know -- 1983,

14     1983.  That's when I moved to Banjica, and this was in 1988 -- I mean,

15     the book was published in 1988.

16        Q.   When did you learn that Jovica Stanisic worked for the State

17     Security Service?

18        A.   Well, when I came to see Mitrovic to collect material for that

19     book.

20        Q.   What year?

21        A.   That book was being created for a number of years.  First it was

22     published as a phaton [phoen] in "Novosti," then in "Ekspres Politika,"

23     and only then it was published as a book.  And let me remember, I think

24     it was sometime in 1985, 1986.

25             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the next section of this

Page 15707

 1     article that is lower in bold.  It's the section entitled:  "The Man Who

 2     Brought Captain Dragan to Serbia."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I first try to find out, you said you learned

 4     that Jovica Stanisic worked for the State Security Service, and when was

 5     that, and you say in -- oh, that was in --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1985, 1986.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  It's clear to me.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, actually, I see that it's 10.30.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for a break.  We'll resume at five minutes

10     to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Lucic.  I wanted to turn your attention back to

16     the article that we were discussing from "Intervju" in 1994 in the

17     section entitled: "The Man Who Brought Captain Dragan to Serbia."  You

18     were quoted in this section as saying that Captain Dragan:

19             "... first went to Draskovic's HQ but there they completely

20     ignored him, then he came to me."

21             Is it correct that Captain Dragan was ignored by the SPO in late

22     1990 and early 1991?

23        A.   You have to understand that Daniel Snedden at the time was one of

24     hundreds of people arriving from the rest of the world at the SPO.  It

25     was a magnet basically for all former emigres and anti-communists.  At

Page 15708

 1     the time Daniel Snedden appeared, among other people, there were many

 2     others who were coming from abroad with money in their bags in order to

 3     finance the SPO and assisting to topple the regime.  In such

 4     circumstances, you will understand that Daniel Snedden could not attract

 5     much attention by those who were in charge of the party.  He came to see

 6     and he noticed that many people went through my office but we were still

 7     hungry most of the time, and he asked whether we had enough money.  I

 8     told him we had enough money to eat but for ourselves, but he didn't --

 9     we didn't have enough money to feed everyone else.  Then he proposed that

10     we -- this is important.

11        Q.   Sir --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness, Mr. Weber interrupts you, he is

13     entitled to do so if you move rather --

14             THE WITNESS:  [In English] Sorry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- far away from what the question was.  If there's

16     anything at the very end of your testimony which you consider of such

17     importance that you should convey it to us, you'll have an opportunity to

18     do so.

19             Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   I just want to ask you a very simple question, yes or no.  Do you

22     stand by your 1994 statement that Captain Dragan was completely ignored

23     by the SPO?

24        A.   I didn't say he was completely ignored.  I just said that he

25     didn't receive much attention.  It doesn't mean that they ceased any

Page 15709

 1     contact with him.

 2        Q.   When you then say "then he came to me," is it correct that this

 3     is a reference to your initial contact with Captain Dragan?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   This article states:

 6             "Lucic's political career ended ingloriously when he was

 7     suspected within his own party of scheming with the State Security

 8     Service, SDB.  Accusations by his idealogical comrades in arms were very

 9     rough and they included embezzlement.  When the accusations were still

10     fresh, he decided not to dispute them in public."

11             Is this statement accurate?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   When exactly did your own party, which I'm understanding this to

14     be the SPO, consider you as scheming with the State Security Service of

15     the Republic of Serbia?

16        A.   May I answer?

17        Q.   Please do so.

18        A.   Thank you.  The stories of me being a secret agent of the SDB

19     were launched by Zvonimir Trajkovic, one of Slobodan Milosevic's advisors

20     because my organisation, the Belgrade board, represented a greater danger

21     for the regime than the SPO itself all over Serbia.  This proved correct

22     during elections because --

23        Q.   Sir, if I can focus you in, my question goes to when.  By your

24     answer, is it correct that this occurred at the end of 1990, this

25     speculation?

Page 15710

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is there any truth to the speculation?  Were you cooperating with

 3     the Serbian DB?

 4        A.   No.  I was trying to explain a moment ago as to who initiated

 5     such rumours and why.

 6        Q.   Sir, it's understood.  Is it correct that you have not done

 7     anything to dissuade or refute the speculation about your relationship

 8     with the accused or the Serbian DB over the past 20 years?

 9        A.   I couldn't do that.  I couldn't refute something that is

10     impossible to refute.  How can you deny something that doesn't exist in

11     the first place?  Do not forget that Vuk Draskovic participated in power

12     at the time of Slobodan Milosevic as he is doing nowadays as well, and

13     I'm just another writer or journalist.  His voice against me carried much

14     greater weight than anything I would have to say against him.  It would

15     be like tearing a pillow up on the 20th floor and trying to make someone

16     pick up all the feathers down on the street.

17        Q.   Is it correct that you have done nothing to dissuade or refute

18     the speculation about your relationship with the accused and the Serbian

19     DB?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- that's the same question.

21             THE WITNESS:  [In English] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness said I couldn't do that.  That seems to

23     imply that what you couldn't do you didn't do; is that correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's an answer to the question.  Please proceed.

Page 15711

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Have any criminal complaints ever been filed against you in

 3     relation to the publication of any of your books?

 4        A.   Yes, they have, by a municipality which was dissatisfied with my

 5     view of history expressed in one of my books -- no, sorry, there were two

 6     complaints; one by Alija Izetbegovic, the leader of the Muslim

 7     immigration community in Zurich in Switzerland about the book "The

 8     Secrets of the Albanian Mafia"; the second suit or complaint concerned a

 9     partisan official concerning Pavelic's crimes and the crimes of

10     communists against Serbs in Montenegro.  I was brought before a court but

11     was not pronounced guilty in either of the cases.

12        Q.   Thank you for that information.  With respect to the second

13     complaint, is that in relation to either of your books "The Kingdom of

14     the Khazars" or "The Kingdom of the Khazars 2"?

15        A.   It is the third book.  I think the book in question is "The

16     Kingdom of the Khazars 2," but it never reached the court.

17        Q.   When you are referring to Khazars, who are you talking about?

18        A.   A people.  Arthur Koestler described them in his book.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters couldn't hear the name of the

20     book.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They live between the Caspian Sea

22     and the Black Sea, and they accepted Judaism in the middle ages.  These

23     are mainly the Ashkenazi Jews nowadays.

24        Q.   Could you please provide a very brief description about what you

25     write about the Jews in your books "The Kingdom of the Khazars" and "The

Page 15712

 1     Kingdom of the Khazars 2"?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wonder why this is

 3     relevant, these questions about books and the history of the Khazars.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  It's relevant to the credibility of the witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Credibility of the witness is apparently the --

 7     let's see where we get to.  I do not know -- do you know the book, Mr. --

 8     let's -- I'll give Mr. Weber an opportunity to further develop his line

 9     of questioning.  Please proceed.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Could you please provide a brief description about what you write

12     about the Jews in your books "The Kingdom of the Khazars" and "The

13     Kingdom of the Khazars 2"?

14        A.   I'd like to correct the Prosecutor.  These are not Jews but the

15     Khazars and it's titled as such.  His obvious attempt to paint me as a

16     person of anti-Semitic sentiments is ludicrous because I have great

17     respect for the values of the Jewish people.

18        Q.   What are the books about?

19        A.   About the history of the Khazars.

20        Q.   I'll leave it there for the time being and move on.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6339.

22        Q.   Mr. Lucic, the Simatovic Defence noticed a large number of

23     reports from the Serbian DB and primarily showed you documents from

24     December 1990 to the beginning of April 1991.  The Prosecution would like

25     to focus with you on some specific information in these reports between

Page 15713

 1     the dates of July 1990 and April 1991.  We have prepared a demonstrative

 2     time-line for the purpose of discussing this information with you.  The

 3     chart is now before you on the screen.  Directing your attention to the

 4     first entry for 12 July 1990.  From your testimony here today, do I

 5     understand correctly that you did not know Captain Dragan when he first

 6     arrived to Belgrade?

 7             Sir, if you could please focus on the chart that's before you and

 8     not the chart with your comments.  Sir, my question to you was, do I

 9     understand correctly that you did not know Captain Dragan when he first

10     arrived to Belgrade on the 12th of July, 1990?

11        A.   Yes.  I didn't know him.

12        Q.   According to the information in the possession of the Serbian DB,

13     Captain Dragan made a total of 14 flights between 12 July and

14     14 December, 1990.  Did you know that Captain Dragan was making these

15     frequent flights?

16        A.   No, I didn't.

17        Q.   If we could turn to the next entry for September to December

18     1990.  According to you today, you've indicated that you met Captain

19     Dragan around the time of the election in 1990.  When after that did you

20     learn of his business and his residence with Branka Popovic?

21        A.   Branka Popovic, a female.  Let me tell you, his private affairs

22     were of no interest to me at the time of the elections.  I hardly had any

23     time for my own private affairs.  And I don't even remember meeting

24     Daniel and his girlfriend in that period before December.  Perhaps I met

25     her later.

Page 15714

 1        Q.   Okay.  If we could go to the next entry for 10 and 11 December,

 2     1990.  Could you please read this entry and let the Chamber know when you

 3     need the next page.

 4        A.   Go ahead.

 5        Q.   Sir, have you finished reading the entry?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you know that Captain Dragan had three different passports?

 8        A.   I didn't.  I only saw the Australian one.

 9        Q.   Did Captain Dragan initially introduce himself to you as

10     Daniel Snedden?

11        A.   Yes, he did.

12        Q.   When did you first learn that Captain Dragan's real name was

13     Dragan Vasiljkovic and not Daniel Snedden?

14        A.   When he said so on RTL, the TV station.

15        Q.   Was that in the summer of 1991?

16        A.   Yes, I think so.  In any case, the broadcast was on RTL.

17        Q.   When did you first hear him called Captain Dragan?

18        A.   I said already.  I said that.

19        Q.   What I'm asking is the phrase "Captain Dragan," did you hear that

20     during the same broadcast on RTL?

21        A.   Yes, I said as much.  We all knew him as Daniel, we were

22     completely unaware of Dragan or Captain Dragan.  We called him Daniel.

23             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I intentionally delayed my

Page 15715

 1     interruption to -- for you to be able to see whether this is of any help,

 2     but the Prosecution actually uses the name of Daniel Snedden in many

 3     documents and reports they have, and yet they discuss Captain Dragan with

 4     the witness.  I think enough was asked of the witness and this is all

 5     unfair.  If they want to put a document to him, it's fine.

 6             I'm just looking at the tables drafted by the Prosecutor.  There

 7     are references to Captain Dragan and Daniel Snedden which may cause some

 8     confusion.  I delayed my intervention, and in the mean time we were able

 9     to hear the answers of the witness and he clarified the situation.  In

10     any case, it is unfair that the Prosecution uses this strategy in their

11     table.  It is against the rules of cross-examination.  They can put

12     suggestive questions, leading questions, but I don't think this is

13     appropriate.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Which rule of cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac?

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Correctly presenting documents to a

16     witness.  All documents the Prosecution refers to mentions Daniel Snedden

17     in the original and in their table they introduce Captain Dragan which

18     may cause confusion and lead the witness to a wrong track.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we do not know.  So if I understand you well,

20     is that the table used by the Prosecution does not reflect what is said

21     but replaces the name -- the one name by the other, is that your concern?

22             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I wanted to

23     intervene in that respect, and their other references to documents were

24     correct.  Simply put, in all of the documents we have Daniel Snedden, not

25     Captain Dragan.

Page 15716

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My question was answered by the yes, because I

 2     wanted to give an opportunity to Mr. Weber to say something about it.

 3             Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, first it's cross-examination and the

 5     Prosecution is using a demonstrative exhibit to put something to the

 6     witness.  With respect to the individual that we are talking about, I

 7     think it's pretty clear that the same individual is Captain Dragan,

 8     Daniel Snedden, Dragan Vasiljkovic.  The documents that Mr. Bakrac is

 9     referring to between December 1990 and April 1991 do refer to this

10     individual Captain Dragan, Dragan Vasiljkovic --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. WEBER:  -- as Daniel Snedden, so I'm putting to the witness a

13     demonstrative exhibit.  It does say Captain Dragan.  We do acknowledge

14     that the documents reflect Daniel Snedden during this time.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think it would have been best in a table

16     where you are still seeking the comment of the witness on, isn't it, that

17     you use name used in the document and that you can verify whether it's

18     the same person, either in one question for all of the documents or for

19     each document.  That seems to be the best approach.  Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:  And we will do so, Your Honour, in the future.

21        Q.   Skipping to the entry for 24 December 1991, could you please

22     review this entry and let us know when you are done.

23        A.   The 21st of December?

24        Q.   The 24th of December.

25        A.   [In English] Okay.  Okay.

Page 15717

 1        Q.   Do you know why Pavic told Captain Dragan to turn to you and

 2     Radomir Zivkovic when his plane was grounded?

 3        A.   He told him to get in touch with me since Pavic, Prica, and

 4     Daniel were in a way foreigners in Belgrade and didn't know people.  That

 5     is why they turned to me as the oldest among them to try and resolve a

 6     problem.  So he suggested to Daniel Snedden to turn to me, and I

 7     forwarded him to Radomir Zivkovic because he obviously had some legal

 8     issues with the state.  A person best placed to deal with such was our

 9     party lawyer from our Belgrade board.

10        Q.   Did Captain Dragan ever tell you that he was aware of individuals

11     listening to his telephone after 24 December 1990?

12        A.   Generally speaking, we did think that we were being tapped.  In

13     the system as existed then, as it is the case in Serbia now, it is

14     basically part of folklore.  However, we couldn't use pigeons, so we

15     relied on telephones despite our fears.  I don't remember, though, that

16     his phone was being tapped at the time.  I see here that he made a remark

17     to those eavesdropping that he was not a terrorist.  Well, I can say that

18     he certainly was not a terrorist, and when I saw him being described as a

19     terrorist and someone inciting to terrorism is an exaggeration.  I don't

20     know what the reasons were for the police to wire-tap him and monitor

21     him, perhaps to earn their wages.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page.

23        Q.   Sir, I'll be directing your attention to the entry for 9 January

24     1991.  My question to you will be, when did you first learn that there

25     was contact between Milan Ostojic and Daniel Snedden?

Page 15718

 1        A.   Daniel Snedden had family in Rijeka.  His wife was there too.  As

 2     for this meeting with Ostojic, he mentioned that and I thought that this

 3     was part of his collecting of resources in view of something that we all

 4     knew would happen and that is the secession of Croatia.

 5        Q.   Did you ever personally meet Milan Ostojic?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, no.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 6337.  The

 8     Prosecution requests that this document not be broadcast to the public.

 9     It notes that this document was originally uploaded by the Simatovic

10     Defence as 65 ter 2D432 without a translation.  The document is not on

11     the Simatovic Defence exhibit list.  It is now uploaded under the

12     Prosecution 65 ter with the translation obtained by the Prosecution.

13        Q.   Sir, before you is an excerpt from a report dated 8 April 1991,

14     from the 5th sector of the Serbian DB.  The first paragraph of the report

15     discusses Daniel Snedden being tasked for the needs of you and Pavic.  In

16     this first paragraph of the Serbian version, do you understand what AOS

17     stands for?

18        A.   Probably it is the American intelligence service.  If that is the

19     abbreviation, then that text is incorrect because I certainly did not

20     send Snedden to establish contact with the American intelligence service.

21     He was not eligible for that kind of thing.  I sent him to establish

22     contact for -- contact with institutional or extra institutional centres

23     of power in the United States that create policy.  As we all know, the

24     intelligence services do not create policy.  They only implement

25     decisions made by the establishment.  That has to do with those contacts

Page 15719

 1     with that Wilson from section Texas.  That was it.  I told him to try to

 2     establish contact.  I didn't know who he was going to establish contact

 3     with, but the instruction was to establish contact with decision-makers.

 4        Q.   Are you saying that the Serbian State Security Service reports in

 5     this regard are inaccurate and overstate the activity of Daniel Snedden

 6     in relation to the American intelligence services?

 7        A.   Well, you have to understand that this is a communist rigid

 8     regime.  Any contact with foreigners implies a contact with a foreign

 9     intelligence service.  So they define each and every contact with

10     foreigners in that rigid way.

11        Q.   The Serbian DB report before you documents a call from Aleksandar

12     Pavic to you on 16 March 1991.  According to this report, Pavic told you:

13             "We absolutely must see each other tomorrow.  Snedden, Daniel

14     established contact at a high level and everything is becoming quite

15     serious.  He is supposed to have a meeting at an even higher level

16     tomorrow.  He started to spread some information and misinformation so an

17     interest in us is great.  He did it on his own initiative even though we

18     should have given our opinion on it beforehand.  We must not allow him to

19     go there again without prior consultation with us."

20             Is it correct that Daniel Snedden established contact with the

21     Serbian government officials on his own initiative without the knowledge

22     of either you or Pavic?

23        A.   Let us make a distinction.  These are two different matters.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Please proceed with your answer.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are two topics; that is to

Page 15720

 1     say, Daniel Snedden's contacts with people from America are one story,

 2     and contacts of Daniel Snedden in relation to the Knin Krajina and

 3     seeking support from the Serbian state, as far as I can remember it was

 4     Brana Crncevic actually, and later on it was Sainovic, and --

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, sir, you've testified to a lot of that before, and it's

 7     clear from the document that there are two separate incidents being

 8     discussed.  My question to you was quite simply, is it correct that

 9     Captain Dragan established contact with Serbian government officials on

10     his own initiative without the knowledge of either you or Pavic?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   After his return from the United States, were you aware that

13     Srba Milovanov introduced Daniel Snedden to Franko Simatovic and

14     Dragan Filipovic and that he had a meeting with them at the Metropol

15     hotel to discuss plans in the future?

16        A.   I am not aware of that, that they met.  Milovanov was

17     Vuk Draskovic's right-hand man.  A man of great trust, as far as

18     Vuk Draskovic was concerned.  I was not close to him because I have had

19     no specific experience with him.  Before political activities, that is.

20        Q.   You do know that Captain Dragan knows Franko Simatovic; correct?

21        A.   He knows him today.  He did not know him then.  I did not know

22     that he had known him.  Obviously he had met him through someone.  I

23     mean, I don't have that before me.

24             MR. WEBER:  At this time I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to play a

25     brief clip from Exhibit P2976, part 1 of the documentary entitled the

Page 15721

 1     unit.  The clip being played is from 10 minutes, 11 seconds, to 10

 2     minutes, 44 seconds of the video and contains a statement made by Daniel

 3     Snedden.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I think that I left a deep

 6     impression with them during that conversation.  They asked me how and

 7     what I wanted to do.  I told them what I wanted to do.  They asked me how

 8     I was going to do that.  I told them everything about it.  Then they

 9     asked me if I could write it down.  Of course, I did.  I wrote it down.

10     A short 21-day course, roughly speaking.  Then is when I became friends

11     with Frenki in a way.  It went much further than that official

12     conversation."

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Is it your evidence that you were not aware of this initial

15     meeting with Captain Dragan and how he went about creating his 21-day

16     course manual?

17        A.   I was absolutely unaware of that meeting with Simatovic.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6337, and

19     Your Honours, I also see I forgot to tender the earlier article that I

20     used from "Intervju" magazine which is 65 ter 6336.  We are asking that

21     6336 be admitted as a public exhibit and 6337 be admitted under seal.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

23             Madam Registrar, could you please specify the two exhibits.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6336 receives number P3054.  Document

25     6337 receives number P3055, Your Honours.

Page 15722

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P3054 and P3055 are admitted into evidence.  Please

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please return to the

 4     demonstrative time-line chart and have page 3 of 65 ter 6339.

 5        Q.   Sir, according to information in the reports, Daniel Snedden

 6     returned to Belgrade on the 18th of March, 1991.  Could you please look

 7     at the entry for the next day on the chart, the 19th of March, 1991.  On

 8     this date, the Serbian DB documented the following conversation between

 9     Captain Dragan and Martin Lynch:

10             "Snedden:  As for the situation in Yugoslavia, I'm involved in it

11     a bit more than I planned in the beginning when I used to come here.

12     Things are going well here nonetheless.  It's not as bad as CNN is

13     reporting.  While we are on the subject, I have a request.  Can you get

14     me a manual for basic training?  Do you know what I'm talking about?

15             "Lynch:  You mean aircraft training?

16             "Snedden:  No, I need a military manual for basic infantry

17     training.  I'm sure that you can easily find one where you are, just 'use

18     your imagination.'  I need this book because some sort of army is being

19     formed here, and since I am working on it as an advisor, a set of manuals

20     would be useful to me."

21             Do you know why Captain Dragan was requesting military manuals

22     for basic infantry training on the 19th of March, 1991?

23        A.   Well, this is a leading question --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness, Mr. Lucic.  Would you refrain from

25     commenting on the questions.  If you have any problem, you may address

Page 15723

 1     me, as I said before.  Is that clear to you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question is clear to me.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And by the way, if you are interested in the law,

 4     perhaps you are not, leading questions are allowed in cross-examination.

 5     Please answer the question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, on the basis of what I've

 7     read here, and I was not present during the conversation, I infer that

 8     Captain Dragan believes that he needs additional knowledge in order to

 9     train the Knindzes more effectively, the Knindzes that he had established

10     or wished to establish, in the Krajina.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Aside from the documentation that you saw, did you have any

13     knowledge of that?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   You mentioned yesterday that Martin Lynch was called the

16     Irishman.  Is it correct that that is --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   That in the Serbian language that is pronounced Irac [phoen]?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   On the one occasion that you met Lynch, did he introduce himself

21     to you as Irac?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   How did you learn that that was his nickname?

24        A.   Subsequently.  Because I linked things up.

25        Q.   Okay.  Did someone tell you that his nickname was Irac, and if

Page 15724

 1     so, who?

 2        A.   I really don't remember.  Maybe Pavic.  Later.

 3        Q.   At yesterday's transcript at page 62 you stated the following

 4     about Lynch:

 5             "I didn't really socialize with him.  I did not want to get

 6     involved in all that because that went beyond all those things that I was

 7     involved with."

 8             What were those things that Lynch was involved with that you did

 9     not want to be a part of?

10        A.   Well, it has do with organising the struggle of the Serb people

11     in the Knin Krajina and their training.  I was interested in politics in

12     Serbia.  This was at the level of patriotic feelings, as far as I was

13     concerned, and some contacts that I could have used to help someone, to

14     do them a favour, to make life easier for them.

15        Q.   When was the first time that you met Milan Martic?

16        A.   Well, when I took Daniel to see him together with Pavic.  It's

17     not Pavkovic, as it says here, it is Pavic.  That's a mistake.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6339 as a

19     public exhibit, the chart.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, it's the demonstrative chart that's been --

21     I would object.

22             MR. WEBER:  We are only tendering it so there's clear record of

23     what the witness was looking at.  We are not -- we believe that the

24     economics themselves should be the controlling evidence and the testimony

25     of the witness, but the Chamber does need to have record of what the

Page 15725

 1     witness was looking at during the proceedings and what he was commenting

 2     upon.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would say that nothing in the chart you would

 4     rely upon apart from the content of the documents referred to in that

 5     chart and the evidence the witness gave in relation to those documents?

 6             MR. WEBER:  Correct.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Objections for this?

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what I notice here now

 9     is that Mr. Weber himself has double standards.  In the table that the

10     witness commented upon, Mr. Weber has objections with regard to certain

11     details, and now he is tendering a table that they compiled and in which

12     it says Captain Dragan rather than Daniel Snedden and so on.  I object in

13     principle - although the content of this table is correct - I object in

14     principle, and I suggest that it be MFI'd and that it be dealt with on

15     the basis of an agreement between myself and Mr. Weber within the same

16     package that we are discussing in view of the comments that the witness

17     gave to me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The document, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

20             Your Honour, instead of showing 17 separate documents and giving

21     everyone quite a workout in the courtroom here today, we simply compiled

22     a time-line chart for the sake of expediency.  Now we are just asking

23     that that be a part of the record so we know what the witness is looking

24     at.  It's quite different than the chart that was offered by the

25     Simatovic Defence which actually has active evidence, information that's

Page 15726

 1     being provided by the witness.  Again, see no reason that this can't be

 2     admitted at this time.  I did skip over the entries that were already

 3     discussed by Mr. Bakrac with the witness and we ask they be admitted.  We

 4     don't see why we have to keep one more housekeeping matter with respect

 5     to this one.

 6             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, there certainly is a difference, isn't

 8     there, where you rely on the comments of the witness and the comments in

 9     the chart, whereas Mr. Weber does not?

10             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I do

11     agree -- I'm waiting.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's keep matters short at this moment.

13     Mr. Bakrac, you have said that you [Overlapping speakers] --

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, you asked it to be MFI'd so that you

16     could further discuss the content with Mr. Weber.  That request is

17     granted, so it will be MFI'd.

18             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to wait for

21     the -- Your Honour, I just have to note something.  Please allow me for

22     the transcript.  I opened over ten documents with the witness directly.

23     I did not make a table.  I directly dealt with documents and I asked

24     about how they could be admitted.  Mr. Weber did not agree with the

25     admission of these documents.  So I opened the documents, I showed them

Page 15727

 1     to the witness, he provided his comments, and now Mr. Weber is applying

 2     double standards --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, you asked the document to be MFI'd so

 4     that you could further discuss the matter.  That's granted.  So let's

 5     then -- you can discuss it, and if you do not agree finally, then the

 6     Chamber will listen to your explanation of what happened in court and

 7     which was witnessed by the Court itself.

 8             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6339 will receive number P3056, Your

10     Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  Any need to have

12     it under seal, reference to the --

13             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour, the Prosecution did not include any

14     potentially confidential information from the reports.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it keeps the MFI status as a public document.

16     Please proceed.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I beg your pardon.  I

18     do apologise, but I have my instructions and I have to bear them in mind.

19     Of course you are going to decide ultimately, but there is some

20     information here that my state does not want to have made public, so it

21     is the versions that are under seal that would have to be used.  I run a

22     risk here to be criticised, at least by my state, for not having reacted,

23     so the information is --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that the underlying documents are

25     not sought to be admitted, it's just the chart, so unless it's the -- if

Page 15728

 1     there are redacted copies of those documents, then a reference to the

 2     document as such without going into details as what portion should be

 3     redacted yes or no, are not touched upon by the chart, as far as I

 4     understand.  And if that's the case, then there seems to be no reason to

 5     have it admitted under seal.  I'm just talking about the chart, nothing

 6     else.  I see that you are nodding yes, Mr. Bakrac.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number 6334 on

 9     the screen.  The Prosecution requests that the document not be broadcast

10     to the public.  This is a report dated 12 April 1991, from

11     Dragan Filipovic of the State Security Service administration, Belgrade.

12     It was received by the Prosecution from the security information agency

13     pursuant to RFA 1338 on the 13th of November, 2006.

14        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the fourth paragraph of

15     this report which describes an interaction between Branka Popovic and

16     your wife on the 1st of April, 1991.  The paragraph states:

17             "Immediately after that, Snedden's lover, Branka Popovic,

18     previously known connection, talked to the wife of Diane Lucic and told

19     her that Snedden had started working on 'the thing' that Dejan also knew

20     about and concluded that they could not talk about these matters over the

21     phone.  She also said that Snedden had gone there together with Lucic and

22     Martin Lynch."

23             What is the thing that Daniel Snedden started working on that you

24     also knew about?

25        A.   First and foremost on that particular date, I was -- actually, I

Page 15729

 1     hadn't divorced officially yet, but I went on to live with a different

 2     woman and in that apartment we did not have a telephone at all so

 3     Ms. Popovic could not be phoning my then girlfriend later wife.  So this

 4     was invented altogether.  I did not travel anywhere with Martin Lynch

 5     anywhere, or Snedden either.  So the entire report is incorrect.  So I

 6     cannot answer your question.

 7        Q.   Well, one, you were not a part of this conversation; correct?

 8        A.   I was not.  I didn't have a telephone so there could not have

 9     been a telephone conversation.  At the time there were no mobile

10     telephones.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now have the bottom of page 3

12     in English which is the top of page 4 in B/C/S.

13        Q.   Mr. Lucic, the portion that I'm going to be directing you to

14     reads:

15             "During the night of 3 and 4 April 1991, deputy Srba Milovanov

16     called Snedden and held the following conversation:

17             "Milovanov:  I finished that job.  You and your friend, Martin

18     Lynch, should go up there, Krajina, at the end of the week.  You'll take

19     our official car.

20             "Snedden:  Who is the person behind this?

21             "Milovanov:  The minister.  Tomorrow I'll be working out the

22     details with him.  You and your friend would go there and you would be

23     handed over to the chief of their (Knin) SUP, our police.  So this would

24     be serious work.  We'll agree about all the details.  We'll have all the

25     exact information tomorrow.

Page 15730

 1             "Snedden:  We'll talk (again) after the session of the Assembly.

 2             "Milovanov:  Fine.  I talked to him today.  I might call you

 3     again during the Assembly.  He and I could go out.  Or, we could get

 4     together a day after tomorrow at," continuing on the next page on the

 5     translation, please, thank you, "... at the R SUP.  This is serious

 6     stuff.  Don't say a word to anybody about it.  Not a word.

 7             "Snedden:  Fine.  I'll be there."

 8             Did Daniel Snedden say anything to you about this information

 9     that he discussed with Srba Milovanov.

10        A.   No, he did not.

11        Q.   Do you know if Daniel Snedden was provided with an official car

12     by the Serbian government when he went back to the Krajina?

13        A.   I've already said that I don't know.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the top of page 5

15     in the English and the bottom of page 5 in the Serbian original.

16        Q.   Dragan Filipovic documents another conversation between

17     Minister Sainovic and Daniel Snedden that same night between the 3rd and

18     4th of April, 1991.  During this conversation, Sainovic states:

19             "I have arranged a meeting for tomorrow.  Could you give me some

20     more information about you:  Full name, whose passport do you hold?

21             "Snedden:  Daniel Snedden.  I carry an Australian passport.

22             "Sainovic:  You need to come to the R SUP tomorrow at 0800 hours

23     (explains to him how to get to the R SUP).  Report to the policeman at

24     the entrance and tell him that you have an appointment with

25     Minister Bogdanovic.  You will then be met by the man who will have a

Page 15731

 1     talk with you.  You will pass all that on (to me), and if there is any

 2     misunderstanding, call me at work.  Tell the man who will be there

 3     exactly what you told me."

 4             Were you ever told of this meeting at the Ministry of the

 5     Interior of the Republic of Serbia?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   There are nondescript references to the man in this conversation.

 8             MR. WEBER:  At this time I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to play a

 9     brief --

10        Q.   But before doing that, before playing the clip, is it correct

11     that you are not the man that is being described at the R SUP?

12        A.   No, no.

13             MR. WEBER:  At this time I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to play a

14     brief clip from, another brief clip, from Exhibit P2976, the same part of

15     the unit documentary.  The clip being played is from 3 minutes, 48

16     seconds, to 3 minutes, 50 seconds of the video and contains a statement

17     made by Captain Dragan.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to please

20     play the clip.  It's clip 2 from P2976, 3 minutes, 48 seconds, to 3

21     minutes, 57 seconds.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "On the 3rd of April, 1991, I called

24     him and told him the following:  Frenki, I will wait no longer, I'm going

25     down there with or without you."


Page 15732

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Is it your evidence that you were not aware that Captain Dragan

 3     was in contact with Franko Simatovic on the 3rd of April 1991?

 4        A.   Yes.  I didn't know.

 5             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 6334 into

 6     evidence and we request that the exhibit remain under seal.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6334 will receive number P3057, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P3057 is admitted under seal.  Please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter number 6326

12     on the screen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15733

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             The parties are invited to further fight this mini-battle out of

24     court and then to agree on which one should be the one which was just

25     admitted.


Page 15734

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 6326 on the screen

 3     for the witness.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lucic, could you recognise this as the home page of your

 5     website

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Why do you consider yourself "the man who knows"?

 8        A.   As you know, all is marketing.  I am a writer.  And one of the

 9     ways to boost my sales is to envelope my name in mystery so that

10     different people may reach different conclusions based on the information

11     I present.  By specifying pieces of information, you can use them as

12     pieces of a puzzle, but I leave it up to the reader to create their own

13     puzzle creating an image that suits them, and by the same token, I allow

14     you to do the same.

15        Q.   If we could look at -- I'm sorry, sir.

16        A.   As you can see --

17        Q.   Sir, thank you, that was a very complete answer.  I do have some

18     questions about the content of your website.

19             MR. WEBER:  If we could look at the middle of the first page.

20        Q.   I'm interested in the portion that says:

21             "Mr. Dejan Lucic, an enigmatic person becomes even more

22     interesting, found the information that he is the mysterious man who

23     connected Australian pilot Daniel Snedden, later known as legendary

24     Captain Dragan, with Knin's resistant movement."

25             Sir, have you promoted yourself as part of your marketing as the

Page 15735

 1     individual who is responsible for connecting Captain Dragan with the

 2     authorities in Knin?

 3        A.   Well, to say whether I say something in full responsibility may

 4     be the wrong phrase and may draw to wrong conclusions.  What is the

 5     matter at hand is that I introduced him to the mayor of Benkovac, Martic,

 6     at the suggestion of the Knin Serbs who lived in Gary in -- near Chicago

 7     where there are a lot of Serbian emigres.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's stick to the question, the question was not

 9     what happened, but the question was whether as part of your marketing, as

10     an individual, whether you promoted yourself, I would say presented

11     yourself which is a more neutral term, as the individual who is

12     responsible for connecting Captain Dragan with the authorities in Knin.

13     If this is your website and if you take responsibility for the website, I

14     think the answer is already found on the website but ...

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Different conclusions can be

16     reached, as I said.  As I said already, I'm not responsible.  I'm one of

17     the people who made it happen.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you there.  The question is not what

19     happened or what you did.  The question is about how you present yourself

20     here as part of, as you said, as your marketing effort.  Is it true that

21     in your marketing effort you present yourself as the person who connected

22     Captain Dragan with the authorities in Knin?  Whether you did it is a

23     different question.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm simply trying to steer clear of

25     the word "responsible" which is being imposed on me because I may well be

Page 15736

 1     sanctioned for it.  I am simply careful about the way I am defined.  I'm

 2     simply one of the people who assisted Captain Dragan to get in touch with

 3     the resistant movement in Krajina and with Martic.  Since this is my

 4     website, I of course portrayed myself in a slightly more important role

 5     than may have been.  I also mention Dubrovnik and Petar Maher [phoen]

 6     because footage from Dubrovnik was mentioned in this courtroom and that

 7     Chicago Serbs paid Maher to go to Dubrovnik to find out the truth.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've answered the question.  You say,

 9     this is how I portrayed myself.  That was the only thing Mr. Weber was

10     asking at this very moment.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   On your website there are a number of articles that are posted

14     that are from yourself and also from other individuals.  Did you place

15     these materials on your website because you believe them to be true?

16        A.   What are we talking about?  What material?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if there are more articles there, then it

18     might be a bit of a wholesale question where the wholesale answer might

19     not assist much.

20             MR. WEBER:  Sure.  Could we please have English page 3, B/C/S

21     page 7.

22        Q.   Sir, does the page before you contain a list of articles that

23     appear on your website?

24        A.   Yes.  I also wanted to say that my website contains over 10.000

25     pages of different text that I believed were interesting.  I am not the

Page 15737

 1     author of many such texts.  They were written by different people who

 2     touched upon the topic of Serbia which is the main feature of my website.

 3     In other words, I am not the author or editor in the sense that I wrote

 4     or checked or edited all such texts.  I simply copied such texts in their

 5     original form on to my website or so I instructed my webmaster to do.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The question simply was whether this is a list of

 7     articles that were on your website.  Apparently the answer is yes.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Did you put these articles there because you believe them to be

11     true?

12        A.   How true are newspaper texts?

13        Q.   Well, sir, there's an article:  "They are already here.  Boy from

14     Mars."  Do you believe that to be true?  Are you familiar with that

15     article, and do you believe that there is a boy from Mars?

16        A.   I completely do not recall that text.  I don't even know what

17     it's about.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could we have page 5 in the English and page 9 in the

20     B/C/S.

21        Q.   Sir, directing your attention to the article entitled:  "Is The

22     Pope a Catholic or a Satanist?"  Do you believe that to be true, or do

23     you question whether or not the pope is a Catholic or Satanist?

24        A.   I am not the one who put that question.  When a paper publishes

25     something, its editor doesn't need to be held responsible for each and

Page 15738

 1     every article.  If that were true, then only the audience that is on the

 2     same page with the editor would read such a newspaper.  Editors are

 3     interested and have the right to publish anything that is of interest and

 4     that may increase an interest in the newspaper.  Are you expecting from

 5     me to be another author of the Bible who stands by every single phrase

 6     and references on the website?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to get to where you really seem to want to

 8     get, Mr. Weber.  The title of this article questions whether the pope is

 9     a Catholic or not.  Is that your personal opinion, that this is a

10     question, it is questionable?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:  Can the Prosecution please go to page 10 in the

14     English original, and I will be focusing on an image on the centre of the

15     page.

16        Q.   I'm interested in the picture of the wolf in a red beret with the

17     capture stating:  "Terrorism is a disease.  Call the doctor."

18             Sir, is it correct that this graphic comes from the website

19, which means Red Berets?

20        A.   Yes, and my comment is just below the picture which is "no

21     comment."

22        Q.   Okay.  I would like to ask you what is the reason that you

23     associate yourself with Captain Dragan, both accused, and the Red Berets

24     on your website?

25        A.   Why don't you ask me about my connections with Vladimir Putin

Page 15739

 1     because we have here where it says the letter to Vladimir Putin.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you not suggest what questions to be

 3     put to you but answer the question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I found it interesting.

 5     Because in Serbia there are many people who find the Red Berets quite

 6     interesting.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I'm looking at the clock, could you tell

 8     us how much more time you'll need?

 9             MR. WEBER:  Not much, Your Honour.  I have

10     [Overlapping speakers] --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the kind of answers you do not like to hear

12     [overlapping speakers] --

13             MR. WEBER:  Yes, of course.  I'm going to tender this exhibit

14     right now at this time.  I would like to discuss, if I could, one more

15     exhibit which I probably will have about three or four questions on.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be it?

17             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'm just -- we are now one hour and 20

19     minutes in the second session.  Perhaps it would be best that -- may I

20     take it that it takes no more than five or six minutes?

21             MR. WEBER:  I can do it in that time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let's finish your cross-examination

23     before the break and -- please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders the witness's

25     website into evidence, 65 ter 6326.

Page 15740

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  For credibility purposes, is that --

 2             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  The print-out of the

 4     website, Madam Registrar, would be?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Number would be P3058, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P3058 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed,

 7     Mr. Weber.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 2D447.  It's a

 9     document that was discussed yesterday and we ask that it not be broadcast

10     to the public.

11        Q.   Sir, you were shown this document yesterday and you commented on

12     it as if the individual who was part of this conversation was

13     Daniel Snedden, Captain Dragan.  My first question to you is were you a

14     party to the conversation that is documented in this report?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   The document, if you look to the B/C/S original, indicates who

17     the target is, it's in quotes and it says, "Farisej."  How were you able

18     to determine based on the context and content of this conversation that

19     the individual Farisej was Captain Dragan?

20        A.   Because there is a reference later on to the nickname in another

21     context, another document, and perhaps there is a reference or a link to

22     the address of Filip Kljajic -- sorry, Filipa Kljajica Street.  A friend

23     who had been a minister with the government resides on that street, and

24     based on the street name I made that connection.  I concluded that it was

25     Daniel Snedden, Captain Dragan.

Page 15741

 1             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe there is a

 2     mistake in the transcript.  Perhaps if the witness could repeat and tell

 3     us who lived at Filipa Kljajica Street, number 40.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you please repeat.  You say there's a

 5     reference or a link to the address of Filipa Kljajica Street, and then

 6     you told us who resides on that street.  Could you repeat that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on this and other documents,

 8     I concluded, well in one place we have Captain Dragan and then Daniel

 9     Snedden as residing at Filipa Kljajica 40, and in another document it is

10     stated that Farisej lives on Filipa Kljajica Street 40.

11             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And the witness said that someone

12     else also resided on that street.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, that's what I just was about to ask.

14     You knew another person living on that same street.  Could you tell us

15     who that was?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My brother, minister.  He used to

17     be a professor at the law school in Belgrade.  Actually, he is not my

18     real brother but a cousin.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a cousin who had been a minister with the

20     government?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With Kostunica's government after

22     2000.  He was in charge of international relations with

23     Vojislav Kostunica's government.  After 2000 he is an anti-communist.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Weber.

25             MR. WEBER:


Page 15742

 1        Q.   Based on the materials that you reviewed, is it your

 2     understanding that the individual who is referred to as Farisej in the DB

 3     reports after April 1991 is Daniel Snedden?

 4        A.   That was my conclusion in the course of the past few days when I

 5     read those documents.  I didn't know that before.

 6        Q.   Do you know what, if anything, changed about the relationship

 7     between Daniel Snedden and the Serbian DB between early 1991 and after

 8     April 1991?

 9        A.   I really don't know.  I'm not privy to that.

10             MR. WEBER:  Nothing further, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

12             We take a break.  We'll resume in 20 minutes, but could the

13     witness first be escorted out of the courtroom which gives me an

14     opportunity to read a very small decision.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 15743

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             If we would follow the practice which was developed during the

15     Stanisic Defence case, then it would now be Mr. Bakrac who would put

16     further questions to the witness, I think.  Is that a practice the

17     parties would prefer to continue?  No, it's just the other way around.

18     I'm sorry.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that's what I was going to say.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm still more or less stuck to as far as the

21     persons are concerned.  Now, the practice would be that the other Defence

22     would now put further questions to the witness.  Is that the practice you

23     would like to continue?

24             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Jordash, if you have any further questions


Page 15744

 1     to the witness.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  But with this witness, I don't have any.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have any --

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- further questions.

 6             Mr. Bakrac, any need to re-examine the witness?

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation], Your Honour, by your leave 15 to 20

 8     minutes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Which will most likely result in a situation where

10     the next witness would not be called today because of the protective

11     measures, especially voice distortion, which needs to be prepared, that

12     would take 15 minutes.  We would then be only five or 10 minutes would be

13     left, depending on how much time you would need, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I don't know what's going to be raised

15     during the next 15 minutes, but right now we'd have nothing.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's then proceed because if it's only 15

17     minutes, and if there would be no further questions, then it would be

18     even worthwhile to use the last 15 minutes of today's session.

19             Mr. Bakrac.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21     Mr. Petrovic is asking me just now to ask you whether the next witness

22     who is still in the building can leave or whether this person should stay

23     on because we did not quite understand.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I said that if you would use 15 minutes and if there

25     would be no further questions, then even after a break of 15 minutes we


Page 15745

 1     would still have 15 minutes left and for that reason I think that the

 2     witness should remain on standby.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lucic, my learned friend Mr. Weber asked you

 6     and your answer was that you've known Mr. Franko Simatovic since

 7     elementary school, so my question is whether you were close friends with

 8     Mr. Franko Simatovic in elementary school or whether you just knew each

 9     other at school?

10        A.   We just knew each other at school, from the same class, that is.

11        Q.   Do you know with whom Mr. Simatovic socialised most of the time

12     then?

13        A.   As far as I know Miroslav Tudjman for the most part because their

14     fathers were friends, they played cards together.  Of course, that I

15     learned much later.

16        Q.   Who is Miroslav Tudjman?

17        A.   Miroslav Tudjman is the son of Franjo Tudjman, and

18     Miroslav Tudjman was the head of the Croatian Intelligence Service in

19     1991.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, after elementary school, after elementary school did

21     you intensively socialise with Franko Simatovic?

22        A.   No, I did not.  After elementary school, I was friends with my

23     friends from high school.

24        Q.   Mr. Lucic, my learned friend Mr. Weber asked you whether in most

25     of the documents you saw you noticed -- you noticed that there is mention

Page 15746

 1     of your telephone conversation with Mr. Simatovic, and you said that you

 2     did not have any telephone conversation with Mr. Simatovic; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that most of the exhibits that the Defence showed

 5     you, that out of these 47 exhibits, in most cases these are reports on

 6     intercepts, intercepted conversations of Daniel Snedden, that is to say

 7     Captain Dragan, or you and Mr. Pavic?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, when -- I think it was yesterday actually, you said

10     that Vuk Draskovic had accused you of being an agent of the military

11     intelligence service?

12        A.   That is what he wrote in his book "The Target," which was a best

13     seller about two years ago.  You have a copy, I gave it to you.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to have

15     2D903 called up.  We asked for page 93 to be translated, so I would

16     kindly ask that I read this out to the witness or perhaps the witness can

17     read this out.  Maybe I'm going to read it better, more slowly, that is,

18     so 2D903.

19        Q.   Is this the front page of the book that you refer to?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 3 in e-court,

22     which is page 93 in e-court.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have just remembered.  I would

24     like to add that I took Vuk Draskovic to court on account of this book.

25     I sued him, I sued Vuk Draskovic, the president of the Serbian Renewal

Page 15747

 1     Movement.  I took him to court.

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Since you say that you sued him, tell us what the outcome was?

 4        A.   Vuk Draskovic was unknown at his address and the court could not

 5     reach him either at his home address in this villa at Banovo Brdo, or at

 6     the address of the party headquarters.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm going to read this out to you and I'm going to

 8     ask you whether this is correct, what Mr. Draskovic wrote in his book:

 9             "We had just discovered a conspiracy that was headed of the

10     president of the Belgrade board of the SPO, the journalist Dejan Lucic.

11     He joined us in the summer of 1990 having been given instructions by the

12     military secret service to penetrate the very top of our party and -- and

13     to win over, first of all, my own confidence through bombastic

14     anti-communist speeches."

15             Are these allegations correct, Mr. Lucic?

16        A.   You read this correctly, but this is not actually correct.  It's

17     actually not true.  I was not an agent of the military intelligence

18     service or of any intelligence service.  As I have already said, this

19     entire story was launched by Zvonimir Trajkovic, an advisor to

20     Slobodan Milosevic, because they were afraid.  The regime was afraid of

21     the 40.000 persons that I had organised and almost all of them had joined

22     parliament from my Belgrade organisation.  Then they tried to discredit

23     me.

24             First of all, they were saying that I was Dana Draskovic's lover.

25        Q.   Mr. Lucic, that will do.

Page 15748

 1        A.   May I just --

 2        Q.   Mr. Weber at one point in time asked you whether you had tried to

 3     deny these allegations that you were an associate or employee of the

 4     Serbian DB.  Were you actually referring to the military intelligence

 5     service?

 6        A.   I'm nobody's spy, but to deny anything in a country where the

 7     judiciary does not operate, to deny something in the newspapers is

 8     senseless.  It does not yield any results.  I thought that a person

 9     should go to war when it is possible to win, not just to play a game of

10     war.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lucic.  In this book further on, I'm now going to

12     read it, it says that along with his blessing, you got together some

13     tough guys who would be his guards if he were to run into trouble?

14        A.   I did not get these tough guys together.  They came because they

15     were paid.  This is Bejle [phoen] who was in Belgrade and who bought Vuk

16     Draskovic a white BMW 216, and he took him to rallies in that car.  He

17     was really an anti-communist.  And Djordje Bozovic Giska was a man he

18     brought to that team, too, and later on he was the commander of the

19     Serbian guard under the idealogical leadership of Vuk Draskovic.  The man

20     got killed at the front line in Croatia near Gospic.

21        Q.   Mr. Lucic, my learned friend Mr. Weber on page 37, or rather, a

22     bit before that he asked you -- and then at page 37, line 5, of today's

23     transcript you said, inter alia, that the leadership of the SPO did not

24     pay sufficient attention to Daniel Snedden and that then he came to see

25     you.  You said, "He came to see me."  That's what you said.  When you

Page 15749

 1     said "He came to see me," what did you mean?

 2        A.   I meant the Belgrade board of the SPO, the address was in the

 3     street of Brankova [phoen] and in George Washington Street the

 4     headquarters of the SPO in general were located.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  I am drawing this to a close, my

 6     re-examination.  I just have one more question left.

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up an exhibit

 8     that was tendered by the Prosecution, 65 ter 6334.  Page 4, please, in

 9     B/C/S.  And that is page 3 in English.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, please take a look at this.

11        A.   Can it please be zoomed in a bit.

12        Q.   Look at paragraph 3.  Actually, let me ask you this:

13     Mr. Milovanov, on the 3rd and 4th of April, 1991, what was his position

14     in the SPO?

15        A.   May I first say a word or two about Srba Milovanov who was a

16     member of parliament for the Serbian Renewal Movement.  He came to this

17     position at the insistence of Vuk Draskovic, and I was against that

18     because I had had negative experience with him.  He was the owner of a

19     Mini Morris car repair shop and he stole my gear box.

20        Q.   That will do.  Please focus on my question.  Srba Milovanov, what

21     was his position in the SPO?

22        A.   He was a member of parliament on behalf of the SPO, and he was

23     very close to Vuk Draskovic and Dana Draskovic and they trusted him.

24        Q.   Was he in parliament on behalf of the SPO?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15750

 1        Q.   Please take a look at this where it says:

 2             "Milovanov:  I finished that job.  Towards the end of the week

 3     you should go up there, Krajina, with that friend of yours, Martin Lynch,

 4     you are going to take our official car."

 5             When he says you'll take our official car, do you know what that

 6     refers to?

 7        A.   I assume that it's the official car of the Serbian Renewal

 8     Movement.

 9        Q.   Do you allow for the possibility that this may be an official car

10     of the Assembly?

11        A.   Possibly because he was a member of parliament, or perhaps it was

12     a vehicle of the government of Serbia.  I mean, maybe he meant the

13     government.

14             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15             If Mr. Weber does not object, although we haven't got a

16     translation yet, 2D903 -- aha, actually we have received a translation

17     and -- we have actually received a translation of the book.  No, not the

18     whole book, just this particular excerpt, and I can give Mr. Weber a

19     photocopy of the entire book.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if we could just look at the

22     translation, and by the time that the protective measures matters are

23     addressed for the next witness, I don't think we'd have an objection to

24     the excerpt.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll mark it for identification.  It's only

Page 15751

 1     the one page, page 93, Mr. Bakrac, that you wanted to tender?

 2             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Yes, just that

 3     page.  However, we have uploaded it along with the cover page of the

 4     book, the front page.  We are just interested in one page but we'd like

 5     you to see what this is all about.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked the witness about half a page, so,

 7     therefore, Madam Registrar, that would be number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  2D903 will receive number D609, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D609 is marked for identification awaiting further

10     report by Mr. Weber.

11             Any further questions Mr. Weber.

12             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Stanisic Defence still the same position?  Yes.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that -- yes, Mr. Bakrac.

16             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise to you.

17     I just omitted one question.  With your leave, just one question, one

18     more question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One small more question.

20             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So, Mr. Lucic, you were explaining that with your first wife you

22     lived next door to Jovica Stanisic.  You said that you knew him from

23     university.  Did you ever socialize intensively with Mr. Stanisic?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  That was

Page 15752

 1     that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's the third time that we touch upon the

 3     issue.

 4             Mr. Lucic, this concludes your testimony for today.  There is a

 5     pending issue about the charts which I hope can be resolved without the

 6     witness.  I'm looking you, Mr. Weber.  I'm also looking at you,

 7     Mr. Bakrac.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I do hope that it will be resolved

 9     without it.  Right now it is my understanding that what the witness knows

10     or does not know about facts that are in the documents is stuff that the

11     Prosecution will not be objecting to in the chart.  If there's just

12     complete speculation in the chart, that --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. WEBER:  I suppose that would be redacted.  So on that

15     understanding, we do not envision that the witness would be needed back.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then Mr. Bakrac.

17             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree because --

18     yes, I agree.  I agree.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which then, Mr. Lucic, I would like to thank you for

20     coming to The Hague and for answering the question that were put to you

21     by the parties and by the Bench.  And I wish you a safe return home

22     again.

23             THE WITNESS:  [In English] Thank you and good luck.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break and everyone should remain


Page 15753

 1     standby that as soon as the technical preparations for the voice

 2     distortion are in place that we can start immediately.

 3                           --- Break taken at 1.18 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.26 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac, is the Defence -- the Simatovic Defence

 6     ready to call its next witness, which I understand will be

 7     Witness DFS-O14?

 8             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then protective measures have been inherited from

10     previous cases, that is face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym.

11     Any need --

12             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, although you referred

13     to me, Mr. Petrovic will be taking the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.  There is a request which

15     apparently ignores that similar protective measures are still in place

16     due to the decisions by other Trial Chambers.  Therefore, it seems that

17     it can be declared moot unless you withdraw it.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We withdraw it, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

20     courtroom.  His face not to be shown, his voice not to be heard, and him

21     to be called DFS-O14.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Witness DFS-O14.  May I invite you

24     to make the solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole

25     truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 15754

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.  Witness DFS-O14, you'll

 4     testify -- you'll testify with the same protective measures as were

 5     applicable in previous cases before this Tribunal, that is no one will

 6     see your face, no one will hear your own voice and we'll not address you

 7     by your name but you are called Witness DFS-O14.  You'll first be

 8     examined by Mr. Petrovic.  Mr. Petrovic is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           WITNESS:  DFS-014

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Examination by Mr. Petrovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2D294 placed

16     on the screen without any broadcast publicly.

17        Q.   Witness, can we see your full name on this document as well as

18     the correct date of birth?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

21     this under seal.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be D610, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D610 is admitted under seal.  Please proceed.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we briefly


Page 15755

 1     move into private session, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15756











11 Page 15756 redacted. Private session.















Page 15757

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, upon arrival what was the security situation you

14     encountered in Knin?

15        A.   Upon my arrival at the public security station in Knin, I can say

16     I encountered a situation which I wouldn't call normal when team-work is

17     concerned and especially if compared to previous periods.  Immediately

18     prior to my arrival, say five or six days before, most members of the SJB

19     in Knin signed a petition which was sent to Sibenik and Zagreb, as well

20     as to the federal secretary of the interior in Belgrade and to the

21     municipality in Knin.  They complained about certain announced changes

22     which were to take place in the ministry, and they objected to those

23     changes.  They objected to placing new insignia on their uniform and that

24     they would not be called "ratarstvo" [phoen] instead of the police.

25             When I arrived at the station our supervisors from Sibenik were


Page 15758

 1     there, as well as some people from Zagreb.  They held a meeting with

 2     everyone from the public security station where the situation was

 3     analysed and there was an attempt at easing tensions.  As I could see

 4     later on, much of the sentiments expressed at the station were reflected

 5     in the general population in that town.

 6        Q.   You mentioned the petition, do you know who signed it?

 7        A.   When I arrived all those who signed stated their first and last

 8     names next to their signature.  Only some eight people did not sign so it

 9     was known exactly who did and who did not sign.

10        Q.   Can you tell us who or what ethnicity the policemen were who

11     signed the petition and what was the percentage of those who signed as

12     opposed to those who did not?

13        A.   All those who signed the petition were Serbs.  We can say that 90

14     plus per cent of the staff signed the petition and there was a very small

15     percentage of those who did not.

16        Q.   Witness, very briefly, please describe for us the situation with

17     inter-ethnic relations in the larger towns around Knin such as Sibenik,

18     Zadar and Split in a few sentences, please?

19        A.   Immediately before on the 30th of May 1990, there were

20     multi-party elections, the first such elections in Croatia, and national

21     parties seized power, some of which used chauvinist rhetoric, and both

22     Croats and Serbs were more interested in nationalism at this time as it

23     seemed.  This increased tensions and friction among the population

24     throughout Croatia and later on Yugoslavia.

25        Q.   Witness, did you know well the environment you were sent to work

Page 15759

 1     in?

 2        A.   No, I didn't know the situation there.  Out of the entire staff

 3     of the SJB, I knew only two or three members who had previously attended

 4     school with me or had positions outside Croatia, i.e., in Kosovo.  I

 5     didn't know the rest.

 6        Q.   Witness, when, following your arrival, did you meet anyone from

 7     the political leadership of the municipality of Knin and the area?

 8        A.   As regards my contacts with politicians in the area, perhaps it

 9     was up to 20 or more days following my arrival that I met Milan Babic and

10     Popovic who was the speaker of the Assembly, as well as Neso Mandinic,

11     et cetera.

12        Q.   My last question for today, Witness.  Do you know why it took so

13     long before you met the key people in the municipality?

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

23             Your Honours, I'm looking at the clock.  I believe it is time to

24     adjourn for the day.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's true, Mr. Petrovic.

Page 15760

 1             We'll adjourn for the day.  It was only short, Witness DFS-O14,

 2     that you were with us, but tomorrow there will be more time.  We'd like

 3     to see you back tomorrow, Thursday, the 15th of December, at 9.00 in the

 4     morning in this same Courtroom II.  And I hereby instruct you that you

 5     should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

 6     testimony, whether testimony already given or whether it is testimony

 7     still to be given.  Is that clear to you?

 8             Then we adjourn and resume tomorrow.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

12                           December, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.