1 Wednesday, 18 January 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Judge Gwaunza is, for reasons as mentioned in Rule 15 bis, unable
11 to continue sitting in this case, and this will last only during a very
12 short duration, that is, today. And Judge Picard and myself, we have --
13 we are satisfied that it's in the interests of justice to continue
14 sitting, and therefore we order that the hearing of the case continue in
15 the absence of Judge Gwaunza.
16 We are apparently in private session at this moment?
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, we are in open session.
19 We turn into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 16122-16129 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dimitrijevic. I'd like to remind
19 you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given
20 yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
21 the truth. Mr. Bakrac will now continue his examination.
22 Mr. Bakrac, you may proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 WITNESS: JOVAN DIMITRIJEVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dimitrijevic. Let us try and
3 look at a video-clip that was not played with the sound yesterday. That
4 is 29D -- 2D977.1.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Unfortunately we are attacking with
7 few forces. We are not going to be able to capture all of them. They
8 will all flee to the Borovo [indiscernible]. I will flee there. Some
9 will flee to Vukovar. After that, other forces are doing that, and of
10 course we will find them there. According to that, in the combat, kill
11 everybody. No mercy. They will not show mercy to you. Remember two of
12 our soldiers who were captured alive in Lasovo and mutilated. And think
13 about that the whole time of the combat, meaning it cannot happen again
14 that one of our men is captured. Do you understand? Second thing, to
15 the enemy who is shooting towards you today, show no mercy. This is
16 something that needs to be clear. Those who surrender have to be
17 captured of course."
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, what we saw at the end was that those who
20 surrender should be captured. You were in Erdut at the time. Do you
21 know whether there were any prisoners of war, and what happened to them?
22 What was done to them?
23 A. I told you yesterday that there hadn't been any large-scale
24 activities while I was in Erdut. However, there was combat, there were
25 prisoners, and all those prisoners were handed over to the JNA, to the
1 Novi Sad Corps command.
2 Q. Did you have any capacities to keep prisoners of war in the
3 training centre?
4 A. No. We didn't have a detention unit. We could not keep any
5 prisoners in the centre. We did not have such accommodation capacities.
6 Q. I have another video-clip and I would then end with that.
7 2D975.1. This was disclosed by the Prosecutor. The time is 1 hour,
8 33 minutes, and 31 seconds, to 1.34.24.
9 Mr. Dimitrijevic, while we are waiting for the clip to be played,
10 tell me: Do you know, after the operation in Bijeljina and thereafter in
11 Zvornik, where did the Serb volunteers go to?
12 A. They returned to Erdut.
13 Q. Let us look at the video-clip if the booths have had the time to
14 find the transcript. I believe that they are signalling me that they
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And what happened afterwards with
18 your unit?
19 "Well, after that, our unit -- we were stationed in Erdut. We
20 controlled Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. We held those borders.
21 We held that territory. We were a unit for anti-terrorist and
22 anti-sabotage activities, and we apprehended saboteurs who had been
23 infiltrated into Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem from the Ustasha
24 side. I think that we were -- we kept that peace, that semblance of
25 peace, which lasts to this day. Now with UNPROFOR's mediation. But we
1 kept -- then we were the Krajina Police, all of us, because the
2 Vance-Owen Plan came in then and we all joined the Krajina Police. I
3 don't think that we disappointed the people anywhere. We fought like
4 men. And what is most important, we are ready to do that again."
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, we have just heard Arkan who says that after
7 Bijeljina they returned to Erdut, and immediately after the Vance-Owen
8 Plan came in they became the Krajina Police. You spoke about
9 registration plates yesterday. When did you receive the Krajina Police
10 registration plates?
11 A. I can't remember the date. I can't even remember the period. I
12 only know that that was after that political decision and the
13 implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan. That would have been the
14 beginning or mid-1992, but I'm not sure. In any case, after that
15 document, that international document, was adopted, we applied the
16 instructions from the document and we all became the Krajina Police.
17 Q. Did the uniform change as well?
18 A. Yes. We received blue uniforms that, if not identical, at least
19 they were similar to the uniforms of the Serbian police. They were very
20 similar. I'm not sure about the pattern, but the colour was the same.
21 Q. You say "we received those uniforms." Who from?
22 A. From the TO, from the Territorial Defence. I don't know who
23 issued the order and how, but in any case we all ended up in blue
25 Q. When you say the TO, do you mean the TO of Slavonia and Baranja?
1 A. Yes, Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
2 Q. You mentioned the minister of defence yesterday. Did he play a
3 part in the transformation of your troops into the Krajina Police?
4 A. I suppose so. I suppose that he was the only person who was
5 responsible for that, for the army and the Territorial Defence of
6 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. They had to start wearing different
7 uniforms, and he was the one who was in charge of implementing that
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dimitrijevic. While you were in Zvornik,
10 yesterday you told us that you went there to pick up the bodies of the
11 two fallen soldiers. Do you remember anything that happened on the day
12 when you were there, something out of the ordinary?
13 A. Yes, I remember. As I told you yesterday, I had spent almost an
14 entire day waiting for the transport permit. I had the time to sit down
15 with people and to socialise with them. Something out of the ordinary
16 happened, something that was not common practice, something that was
17 actually strictly forbidden, and that was the receipt of volunteers in a
18 combat area. A person appeared as a volunteer on that very day when I
19 was there, and he conveyed some information to me to the effect that his
20 name was Milorad Ulemek. He came to volunteer as a Serb volunteer guard.
21 He had been captured a day or a couple of days by the Muslims, and then
22 the military leaders from Belgrade intervened and he was released. He
23 came to the JNA. He wanted to join the JNA, but he didn't like it there.
24 He didn't like the attitude they showed towards him, the attitude towards
25 combat. He had different expectations and he had heard stories about
1 how -- some good stories, and later on I had to check all those
2 allegations. And that was the reason why he came to volunteer in the
3 area of combat when we no longer receive volunteers, because we did not
4 have any orders from Arkan to do that. On that day he did not receive
5 weapons. He was not issued with any weapons. He just stayed there for a
6 few hours until we decided what to do with him.
7 Q. I apologise for interrupting you here. When you say "on that
8 day," was that after the end of combat in Zvornik?
9 A. Yes. It was after the end of combat, since I went to pick up the
10 bodies, and that's the day on which all those things took place. It took
11 up some time. I waited on those papers in the municipality. I had this
12 conversation with him. These two bodies were a matter of priority for
13 me. Naturally I had them transported to Belgrade. I took them to
14 Captain Nikolic at the military and medical academy. We had
15 communications in the territory of Serbia. I reported to the commander
16 and said I would check the allegations of the volunteer who had reported
17 in Zvornik. I went to his house, since he gave me his address of
18 residence in Belgrade --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you for a second. You tell us a long
20 story in which allegations are mentioned several times, but you have not
21 explained what the allegations were about. What were the allegations
22 brought against Milorad Ulemek? Apparently, because that's what I
23 understand. You have not explained yet what these allegations were.
24 What was he alleged to have done?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we have
1 misunderstand each other. When I say "allegations" -- well, there was a
2 personal file where he stated, in fact, his name, his address, his date
3 of birth, his educational background, the name of his mother and father.
4 So this was information provided. He stated how he had arrived at that
5 position. So there were these personal details that concerned him. And
6 while I was in Zvornik I checked this information, in fact. I asked him
7 about it.
8 So it was a routine check-up to see whether this individual who
9 had reported to me without any ID was, in fact, the person I was speaking
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- so you checked on the identity of a
12 person, Milorad Ulemek, who arrived as a volunteer and who did not want
13 to join the JNA at this time. Okay, that's -- let's please continue,
14 then. We'll hear what was so special and -- about this event. Please
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we see 2D981, please.
18 Q. Very briefly, Mr. Dimitrijevic, what did you do in order to check
19 the information provided by Mr. Ulemek?
20 A. I went to the address provided and determine that he lived there,
21 he was born there. I met his parents there and they confirmed his place
22 and date of birth, and so on and so forth. Certain personal information
23 was confirmed by them, and this showed that the individual who had
24 provided me with this information had been speaking the truth.
25 Q. What later happened to that individual? Was this individual
1 taken into the guards? Who authorised this and where did he report to if
2 that was the case?
3 A. Having checked the information, I informed Zeljko Raznatovic. He
4 said that that was fine. He authorised the entry of this individual into
5 the Serbian Volunteer Guards unit and he went together with the troops to
6 Erdut. That's when the troops left to Zvornik. And soon after, he
7 became a training instructor, given his experience and the fact that he
8 had been a member of the Foreign Legion.
9 Q. [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, could you please have a look at the personal
13 file. It says the first educational -- or, rather, training centre in
14 Erdut. Are you familiar with this?
15 A. Yes, I am. Since I saw this record, after the fall of Vukovar in
16 November no such records were made. We had difficulties when it came to
17 identifying those who had been killed. One of the reasons was that I had
18 a similar personal record while I was in the JNA, and since I had that
19 experience I was able to make such forms for personal records on each and
20 every member.
21 Q. Did Milorad Ulemek fill in this kind of record, when you say that
22 he provided information that you went to check?
23 A. But when I went to Erdut, the information was only on a piece of
24 paper. It was subsequently transformed into a personal record on such a
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in time I
2 would request that 2D981 be admitted into evidence. And I failed to ask
3 for 2D977, the previous video-clip, also be admitted into evidence. So
4 that would be 2D977.1.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
6 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. With respect to this document,
7 can we please have information as to provenance.
8 Is this something you obtained from the witness? Or who gave
9 this to you?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, the witness had
11 this record, brought it with him. The witness had a copy that was left
12 to him.
13 MS. MARCUS: No objections, Your Honour, to that document, then.
14 And with respect to 2D977.1, we request that this be MFI'd along
15 with the other videos that we were MFI-ing from that collection
16 yesterday, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, first the video previously played.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Video 2D977.1 will receive number D645,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
21 Then what we have on our screen now.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 2D -- document 2D981 will receive number D646,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Do you know what sort of position Milorad Ulemek had after he was
3 received and went to Erdut with the SDG? What sort of position did he
4 have and what duties did he perform?
5 A. As I have said, he went to Erdut as a guard. But given his
6 capabilities and his experience that he demonstrated, he soon became a
7 training instructor and then he made his way up the ranks as the wartime
8 events unfolded. I think his last rank, the highest rank he obtained,
9 was that of lieutenant-colonel or colonel.
10 Q. Witness, in the course of our conversation you said that during
11 one period of time, from November -- from August to November 1992, you
12 weren't in the party headquarters, you didn't stay there, you were
13 absent; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, I was absent. That was --
15 MS. MARCUS: Excuse me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
17 MS. MARCUS: Sorry for interrupting. "The course of the
18 conversation," are you referring to a proofing or what exactly are you
19 referring to? You said "in the course of our conversation." The
20 question is quite leading. I'd like to know if that came from his
21 testimony; and if so, where? Sorry if I missed something.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it was part of the testimony --
23 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps I leave it to you, Mr. Bakrac, to ...
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
1 I apologise. I apologise to the booths.
2 Your Honour, when we informed you of the testimony to come, we
3 said that -- when we spoke to Mr. Dimitrijevic, he said he was absent
4 in -- from August to November. And in the course of our proofing here,
5 he gave us the reasons for his absence. Perhaps I should have asked him
6 about this. I'll ask him when he was absent from the Serbian Volunteer
7 Guards in the year 1992 and what were the reasons for his absence.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from August onwards, or,
9 rather, from July onwards, but in my case from August onwards, there
10 weren't any wartime activities, no combat, there was no need for my
11 presence, in fact. I asked Zeljko Raznatovic to grant me a leave of
12 absence. I was divorced, but I have a daughter from that first marriage.
13 She was very young and I wanted to spend some time with her, since I had
14 been absent for several months. This leave wasn't limited in time. It
15 was said: When I need you, I'll call you. That's what Arkan said and
16 that's what happened. So this leave of mine was from August until
17 November 1992.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And in November 1992, why did Arkan ask you to return?
20 A. Well, the reason was that he had reached an agreement with the
21 people surrounding him, and this agreement was that he should participate
22 in the elections for the republican parliament. He was supposed to be an
23 independent candidate for the Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, Group. So he
24 needed my presence in order to organise these things and everything else
25 that related to this move.
1 Q. For the needs of that campaign at the time, did you engage any
3 A. No. I don't think that was the case at the time. I'm trying to
4 remember, but I don't think so.
5 Q. After that group of citizens had been formed, did you form a
7 A. But yes only in the extraordinary elections in 1993.
8 Q. For the needs of that campaign, did you engage any volunteers?
9 A. Yes. A significant number, in fact. In the party HQ there are
10 about 60 volunteer -- volunteers who performed various kinds of duties
11 there. I can perhaps provide you with the details of their duties.
12 Q. I'll ask you about that if necessary.
13 Sir, in October and November 1993, did you pay these volunteers,
14 these employed individuals, in the course of that election campaign?
15 Were they well paid if they were paid at all?
16 A. No. By definition they were volunteers. They had volunteered to
17 help the party. There were no such obligations. They weren't employed
18 in the sense that they had to be present. If they were present there and
19 performed their duties, it was a matter of their own good will.
20 Q. Witness --
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private
22 session now.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 16142-16174 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Why did Simovic refuse that request for vehicles? Do you know
1 why that was?
2 A. Well, the reason was that he didn't have the means of complying
3 with the request at the time. There were many wartime events, and he
4 wasn't in a position to comply with the request, because he didn't have
5 that number of vehicles available, the number of vehicles that Arkan had
7 Q. You said a moment ago that despite the refusal on this occasion
8 by Simovic, that the co-operation continued and the co-operation was
9 good. How do you know that?
10 A. I co-operated directly with the army. There were certificates
11 that I issued to members of the Serbian Volunteer Guards so that they
12 could deal with their health problems, needs when it came to weapons. I
13 also dealt with the platoons that were present at burials. So we had
14 various forms of communication mainly with the army. And if
15 General Simovic hadn't been favourable, he would have probably reacted in
16 a different way.
17 Q. So through 1992 you saw weapons and supplies coming into Arkan's
18 camp directly from the military?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And no one else?
21 A. I apologise. And no one else ... there were others. There was
22 the command of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and
23 Western Srem.
24 Q. Did you see weapons and supplies coming into Arkan's camp in 1992
25 from anyone or any organisation other than the military?
1 A. I said that yesterday. We were on good terms with the army. We
2 sent requests to address either to the command of the TO of Slavonia,
3 Baranja, and Western Srem or the Ministry of Defence of that entity. Or
4 we sent requests to General Biorcevic, the command of the Novi Sad Corps.
5 These are the only two addresses we used when we requested weapons,
6 ammunition, bombs, grenades, Zoljas, Osas, whatever the warehouse needed.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. JORDASH: I note the time --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
10 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- Jordash, of course, this is the kind of confusion
12 the Chamber wants to avoid. Your question was about what came in, and
13 the answer was about whom they addressed with requests, which is not the
14 same. Now, even if you look at the questions about what came in, there
15 may be some confusion as well.
16 "Did you see weapons and supplies coming in" directly from the
17 military? The answer was yes. No one else? No one else. And then we
18 developed that.
19 Of course, we should keep in mind that analytically there are two
20 possibilities, that he saw everything coming in and knows all of that
21 what the source was; the second option is that he had not seen everything
22 coming in. And it might be difficult to know whether you have seen
23 everything, yes or no, because if you have missed something, you may be
24 aware that you missed something, but you also may be unaware that you
25 missed something - you just have not observed that.
1 That's the kind of questions which are not resolved by your
2 questions and answers, apart from that your last question was about what
3 came in and the answer was not about what came in, but what was
4 requested. I'm just pointing this to you so that you are better aware
5 that an analytical approach of questions and answers leaves quite a bit
6 of questions open. I'm not saying that at the end if you would have
7 dealt with it systematically that they would not still be open, but at
8 least it has not been fully explored. I just want to make you aware of
9 how the members of the Chamber -- the Judges in the Chamber are used to
10 analyse questions and answers.
11 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, I thought I was approaching it
12 systematically, but I'll do --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, on the basis of my observations if you still
14 take that position then I might have to review my analysis. But let's
15 not enter into that debate at this moment and rather take a break. How
16 much time would you need after the break?
17 MR. JORDASH: I think 15 minutes should --
18 [overlapping speakers] --
19 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes after the break.
20 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes to 1.00 and then you have
22 another 15 minutes.
23 --- Recess taken at 12 .06 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the next 15 minutes are yours.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, you were in charge of logistics at the Erdut camp in
3 1991. Did that mean all weapons and ammunition would at some point come
4 through you? All weapons and ammunition that was coming to the camp
5 would come through you?
6 A. Only the paperwork. We had a depot. We had a man who was
7 responsible for the depot. When the equipment arrived, he would send me
8 the papers, the paperwork, to file.
9 Q. What did the paperwork consist of?
10 A. When I say "paperwork," I mean a document that lists what was
11 delivered, from whom, who received the delivered goods, who confirmed the
12 receipt of the goods. I kept the archives. I maintained the situation
13 of the stock in the depots. So if anybody asked me at any point in time,
14 I had a record of the stock currently held in the depot.
15 Q. So there's no one from that camp who would have had a better
16 understanding or better knowledge of who was providing supplies to the
17 camp; is that fair?
18 A. Yes, nobody knew better. However, the person who was in charge
19 of the depot was also aware of the current situation of the stock in the
21 Q. Okay. Thank you. And it's right, isn't it, that --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question there.
23 The paperwork and the actual situation are two different matters.
24 Would you have the full certainty that whatever arrived in the depot was
25 always accompanied by paperwork that reached your desk? Could there ever
1 be any discrepancy between the actual situation in the depots or even
2 within the centre but outside the depots and what was on your desk?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Such an error could not have
4 occurred. As we read the morning order, we were told exactly what was
5 being done in Erdut. For example, if one part of the unit was on target
6 practice, the person in charge of the depot was supposed to provide all
7 the necessary ammunition, and that information was also provided to me.
8 So I had daily insight into the situation at the depot. As needed, I
9 would be provided with the information on the goods coming into the
10 depot, and every day I would deduct those things that were taken out of
11 the depot, because every day there was either an action, operation,
12 target practice. There was something going on every day, and the ammo
13 was issued from the depot every day.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Did you go to the depot yourself to verify whether
15 what you received on paper was in every respect in accordance with what
16 was in the depot? That's my first question.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I went to the depot
18 every day and I compared the situation on paper with the situation in the
19 depot. The person who was responsible was a man who provided me with the
20 exact information on the current stock. Any error, any mistake, would
21 have been punishable.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, punishable or not -- again, you apparently did
23 not check it yourself, physically, to say: On my list I see
24 247 hand-grenades. Where are they? Let's count them. That's not what
25 you did.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. That would have been
2 too much. And the quantities were huge. It would have been impossible
3 to take the physical stock of all the ordnance day-in/day-out. But we
4 knew approximately -- or not approximately, actually we knew the exact
5 number of crates, the quantity of ordnance, the number of reserve rifles,
6 the number of hand-grenades, Zoljas, Osas. It was impossible to have any
7 discrepancies, either surpluses, however minor, or any minuses, again
8 however minor.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, is there any possibility that, in the centre or
10 perhaps even outside the centre, that stock was there which would not
11 have been accounted for in the paperwork?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There was no such thing. We
13 had a depot, one depot. We had one person in charge of the stock. He
14 had perhaps four or six volunteers under him because his job was
15 demanding. That was the part of the unit that he was in charge of, and
16 there was just one depot, one place, that received all the ordnance and
17 weapons and from which all the ordnance and weapons were issued.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What you're telling is that you were not aware
19 of any other stock outside of the depots because, according to your
20 knowledge, there was only one depot which contained all the ordnance and
21 weapons. That's how I have to understand your answer; is that correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only that I didn't know; there
23 was no other depot save for the one that I was aware of. Yes, you
24 understood my answer absolutely correctly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. And the person in charge of the stock, can you remember his name?
3 A. While I was there, the person was Borivoje Ackov [phoen], also
4 known as Bore Ackov.
5 Q. Thank you. And if there was a discrepancy when weapons came in
6 or ammunition came in, for example, between what was expected or what was
7 on the paperwork as compared to what physically arrived, was there any
8 obligation on his part to react to that?
9 A. That was in his job description. For example, if one part of the
10 unit was on a combat mission, a lot more ammunition was given to them.
11 On their return from the operation it was hard to just guess how many
12 rounds were fired. He had to take the reminder back from the troops,
13 enter that quantity into the depot books, and copy me with the new
15 Q. But what -- let me give you a hypothetical. Biorcevic delivers
16 or says he's going to deliver 20 AK-47s. The paperwork arrives. It says
17 "20," but only ten arrive. Would he have an obligation to react to that;
18 and if so, how would he be expected to react?
19 A. First of all, such things absolutely didn't happen. We're
20 talking about weapons in a combat area. Every bullet, every rifle was
21 taken stock of. There were no such errors, either in the JNA or in the
22 Erdut centre, especially when it comes to rifles and bombs. Our
23 accounting was very pedantic. And if there was -- if there should have
24 been such a case, he should have reacted accordingly. But such things
25 didn't happen. And second of all, we didn't have AK-47s. We had M-70s,
1 but I'm talking about rifles.
2 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... and is it the case that if
3 something like that happened he would have been expected to report it to
5 A. Yes, that was his obligation. But I never encountered such a
6 problem during my tour of duty.
7 Q. Let me stop you, because I'm running out of time. But am I
8 correct that you never saw any deliveries of weapons or ammunition from
9 the Serbian DB during your time in 1991 and 1992 at Erdut?
10 A. Never. And I know that things like that didn't happen later
12 Q. Am I also right that you do not know Mr. Stanisic? You have no
13 relationship with him professionally or personally. You never have had,
14 have you?
15 A. I agree with your statement. I've not seen Mr. Stanisic before.
16 This is the first time ever I see Mr. Stanisic. In person, I mean. I
17 saw him on TV and in newspapers of course.
18 Q. And you've never spoken to him before?
19 A. No, never.
20 Q. And that's the same for Simatovic, isn't it?
21 A. It's not the same for Simatovic. I had an occasion to meet him
22 sometime in 1996 or perhaps the beginning of 1997. Milorad Lukovic - and
23 I already told you that we shared a property of Zombie disco club -
24 called me. He was out of Belgrade and he told me that a colleague of
25 his, a very important person in his job, would be a guest in our disco
1 club. He wanted me to act as a very hospitable host to him, and I was.
2 And that was that one occasion when I actually met Mr. Simatovic. He was
3 with a large crowd of people on the time -- on that occasion when he
5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now just very quickly now. Training, how many
6 people do you think were trained in the Erdut centre in 1991 and 1992?
7 Are you able to give us an estimate?
8 A. Not only in 1991 and 1992, we're also talking about one part of
9 1993 and one -- and 1994. About three -- 3500 to 4000 people were
10 trained there during that time.
11 Q. 3.500 to 4.000 people over 1991, 1992, and 1993. And am I
12 correct that this, again, had nothing to do with the DB of Serbia as far
13 as you could see?
14 A. Up to 1994 and even one part of 1995 there were no contacts.
15 There was no communication with regard to equipment, training, or any
16 such thing with the state security or whatever you called that
18 Q. There's been evidence in this case, Mr. Witness, that there was a
19 training base at Fruska Gora in 1991 where 50 people were trained over a
20 period of five months. Did your training camp, training this number of
21 people, have anything to do with that training camp?
22 A. I've never heard of any such thing. This was not part of the
23 Serbian Volunteer Guards or otherwise I would have known about that, but
24 I don't. This is the first time ever I hear about that.
25 Q. Thank you. Let me take you back to Simovic if I can.
1 MR. JORDASH: Can we have on the screen, please P1050.
2 Q. I want to ask you about something that Simovic's secretary, a
3 woman called Glisic, said. I want to ask you about a comment she made in
4 her diary about Simovic and see if you can comment on it and perhaps shed
5 some further light on it.
6 MR. JORDASH: Could we have page 10 of the English and 14 of the
7 B/C/S. And in terms of the book, you're looking for page 59 of the book.
8 Page 9 -- sorry, page -- let's go over to page 10 of the English and
9 B/C/S page 14.
10 Q. And Glisic is writing about the relationship between Arkan and
11 Simovic. And if we go to the bottom of the page in the English, where it
13 "Arkan's mischief often made us laugh."
14 If you find that in the B/C/S. And then we'll read on about what
15 Glisic says about a particular TV programme that Arkan appeared on.
16 "Studio B ... was broadcasting a talk about the establishment of
17 a Serbian army. Our General Simovic was to take part together with
18 volunteers from the front. Everything had been arranged in advance with
19 the editor, and Simovic decided to go on air with all of them, to go
20 public and speak about the establishment of a Serbian army, about the
21 need for an organisation of volunteers, about their courage. He wanted
22 to say in public that they enjoyed his support, support of the
23 minister of defence. But just before the broadcast the minister was
24 'prevented and otherwise occupied.' Somebody was against his going
25 public, although it had been announced that he would take part."
1 Just reading on, just to cut out some time, I'm interested
2 particularly in this bit:
3 "We all froze when the moderator asked --"
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move to the next page in B/C/S.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the
6 witness does not have the right page in B/C/S.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I do.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think he had before on all parts that Mr. Jordash
9 read, and I now asked, for the last part, to move to the next page.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. JORDASH:
12 "We all froze when the moderator asked Arkan in public who was
13 his Commander-in-Chief.
14 "There was silence in the office and we all expected Arkan to
15 speak after a short silence and say right there in public 'General
17 "Patriarch Pavle!
18 "Everybody laughed. It was not serious, it was just his way."
19 Q. Were you aware of this TV programme? Were you aware of this idea
20 amongst the Ministry of Defence that Arkan regarded Simovic as his boss?
21 A. I don't remember this show, I'm afraid. I'm not aware of the
22 reasons why this show was aired. But I believe this is a good
23 illustration of the relationship between Arkan and General Simovic. It
24 was a close relationship, as you can see, and it was mutually benevolent.
25 Q. And finally, we spoke a moment ago about Legija, and Arkan being
1 upset with Legija about Legija's application to join the State Security
2 Service of Serbia in 1996. Am I correct that -- I know you don't know
3 the reason why Arkan was upset about that, but can we take from what you
4 observed and what you heard and what you saw that you never, throughout
5 your whole time with the Tigers, perceived the Serbian DB to have any
6 special relationship with Arkan, is that a fair -- or any relationship
7 with Arkan from what you saw. Is that fair?
8 A. Yes, you're right.
9 Q. No further questions.
10 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
13 Ms. Marcus, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
14 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dimitrijevic, you'll now be cross-examined by
16 Ms. Marcus. Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution.
17 You may proceed.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dimitrijevic.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. According to your evidence, you joined the SDG in
22 November of 1991; correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So you did not have any affiliation with Arkan or the SDG prior
25 to November 1991; is that correct?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. You were not an associate of Arkan's prior to November 1991; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Correct again.
5 Q. Following your deployment to Erdut, you returned to Belgrade at
6 the end of February or the beginning of March of 1992, where you operated
7 as the chief logistics specialist in the SDG headquarters; is that right?
8 A. Correct. Correct.
9 Q. You testified that between August and November 1992 you were on
10 leave spending time with your daughter. Now, from November 1992 until
11 March 1993 you worked for the Party of Serbian Unity. Is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. But in March 1993 Arkan sent you to Pristina, in Kosovo, to
14 manage the football club there. Is this accurate?
15 A. That is accurate, yes.
16 Q. Did you volunteer for that or did Arkan send you?
17 A. My job, which provided me with my livelihood before the war, was
18 to work at the representative office of the Novo Mesto-based Krka.
19 However, my favourite pastime was football because before the war I used
20 to play football, and all that came into the equation leading to my
21 departure for Pristina. And I'm still very much involved with football,
22 even today.
23 Q. So you only worked for five months at the party headquarters and
24 then you were sent to Pristina; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, when I returned from my leave.
1 Q. According to the information we have from the Defence, you were
2 in Pristina only for three or four months, and that was from March to
3 June 1993. What did you do between June 1993 and March 1994 when you
4 were injured in the traffic accident?
5 A. I apologise. Could you please repeat your question.
6 Q. Absolutely. And I reiterate that this is information that we
7 received from the Defence team. My question was that you were in
8 Pristina then for only three months, from March till June of 1993. And
9 my question was: What were you doing between June 1993 and March 1994,
10 when you were in a traffic accident?
11 A. After the end of that year's championship, which was in June, the
12 stint with the Pristina football club was over and I returned to the
13 headquarters of the Serbian Volunteer Guards. My three-month-long
14 absence when I was in Pristina was not a permanent affair. I would be in
15 Pristina for three days and the rest of the week I would be in Belgrade.
16 So it was not a stay in continuity. It was a temporary stay in Pristina.
17 I shared my time between Pristina and Belgrade, so I never interrupted
18 any of my ties with Belgrade. Because the -- my job managing the
19 football club in Pristina was not a full-time affair. I had to attend
20 games and trainings. But I continued communicating with Belgrade very
21 closely. When the championship was over, I returned from Pristina, I
22 returned to Belgrade, and I continued to work as if that short stint had
23 not even happened.
24 Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, I encourage you to try to answer my questions
25 as briefly as possible. If I would like further clarification or if the
1 Chamber would like so, we will certainly ask you for that. Thank you.
2 You testified that in November 1991 you tried to sign up for the
3 JNA but you were rejected due to your age. Is that accurate?
4 A. That's quite right.
5 Q. Then, as an alternative, the JNA suggested that you go and
6 volunteer with the SDG; is that your evidence?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. The JNA did not tell you that signing up with the SDG would be
9 another way, actually, to be signing up with the JNA, did they?
10 A. No, they didn't tell me that. And I didn't even think about
11 that, to be frank. When I spoke to an official from my municipality, I
12 was rejected. The person said, "You're too old, this will last for some
13 time, stay at home." I didn't want to. I said, "Where should I go,
14 then?" He said, "Well, go to see Arkan. You'll have order, work, and
15 discipline there if that is where you want to go."
16 Q. When you signed up with Arkan's SDG, did they not issue you
17 papers on behalf of or as an organ of the JNA, did they?
18 A. There were no papers of any kind initially when I arrived, not
19 only for me but that was also the case for all other volunteers who had
20 registered. Everything was a matter of volunteering. But after a while
21 this changed. The reason for the change is that individual combatants or
22 volunteers would arrive for two or three days. They'd be there for two
23 or three days or a week, they wouldn't be happy with the conditions, and
24 they would leave the Serbian Volunteer Guards. And as a result it wasn't
25 possible for Arkan to have a trained unit that could operate in the
1 battle-field. So the HQ of the Serbian Volunteer Guards, we decided that
2 all volunteers who came and reported should first sign a certificate
3 stating that they would stay there for a minimum period of one month.
4 Q. Yes. This is what you testified to previously. So prior to your
5 arrival and your setting up of the paperwork, there was no paperwork
6 associated with the SDG volunteers. Is that your evidence?
7 A. In 90 per cent of the cases, yes, I came across some papers but
8 they hadn't been skillfully compiled, not in accordance with the
9 professional norms. So I tried to rectify the situation.
10 Q. You said yesterday at temporary transcript pages 20 to 21 that
11 your impression was that the SDG was a very serious organisation. And
12 you testified at that same transcript page that the training centre had a
13 military postal code. I have attained your military records from the
14 Serbian Ministry of Defence, and I do not see any entries in your
15 military records indicating that you had any connection with the JNA in
16 1991 in Erdut. During your time with Arkan's SDG in Erdut in 1991, were
17 you a member of the JNA?
18 A. We were the Serbian Volunteer Guards attached to the TO of
19 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and as such we co-operated with the
20 JNA on the battle-field. We acted together. So I didn't say that we
21 were part of the army or that we had been recorded as part of the army.
22 We were the TO, the 101st Training Centre in Slavonia, Baranja, and
23 Western Srijem. I think I explained that yesterday, and I'm repeating it
24 today. We were, quite simply, on very good terms with the JNA when we
25 contacted it in order to obtain various forms of assistance.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, just for the record, your reference to
2 yesterday's page is now 16.059.
3 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm afraid that's going to
4 be a repeating problem because as of the last break I didn't see the
5 permanent transcript page numbers in my e-court. I'm sorry. I do
6 apologise for that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
8 MS. MARCUS: I'll do my best -- obviously for tomorrow I'll be
9 ready with those.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have it on my screen now and often it changes
11 during our next-day hearing. So it's just to make life easier for those
12 who come in after us.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for
14 interrupting. If Ms. Marcus wants to continue with her examination with
15 regard to the issue of military participation, I would like her to show
16 this extract from the military records that she has referred to if she
17 has it on her.
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I'm happy to call it up, or I can
19 simply send it to the Simatovic Defence. I wasn't planning on tendering
20 it. It's a response to an RFA that we got last week. I can send it to
21 you if you want and -- unless the Chamber would like me to show it. That
22 was my last question on that issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment, I think if you first send it to
24 Mr. Bakrac, and then we'll see whether at any later point in time --
25 although apparently relevant for this witness, I wonder whether it had --
1 had not yet been disclosed.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to be fair, we have
3 received it. But if my colleague would like to use this document, I
4 thought it might be good to show it to the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But apparently Ms. Marcus sees no reason to do
6 that. Of course in the re-examination or further cross everybody can
7 proceed as it deems fit.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't intend to tender
10 it, but it's available, as we said.
11 Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, just so that I'm sure to understand what you
12 said: Your evidence is that the relationship between the SDG and the JNA
13 was, quote, and I'm quoting from today's transcript, page 70, line 6:
14 "Quite simply, on very good terms with the JNA when we contacted
15 it in order to obtain various forms of assistance."
16 Is that your evidence?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do I understand your evidence correctly that Arkan's SDG moved
19 about the SBWS without any registration plates on their vehicles, crossed
20 back and forth between the Serbian border with no registration plates but
21 only with SDG emblems on the vehicles between November 1991 and the end
22 of February 1992 while you were stationed in Erdut?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, could
25 Ms. Marcus tell us where exactly the witness said that they would cross
1 over into Serbia in those vehicles without registration plates.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not exactly what Ms. Marcus put to the
4 At the same time, Ms. Marcus, it would be wise that if you asked
5 the witness to confirm your correct understanding of the evidence, that
6 you do not move away from it too much. So as far as border crossing is
7 concerned, if you could give us the relevant -- the licence plates are
8 clear, I think. Two Pajero jeeps, one --
9 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours, I have to agree with Mr. Bakrac.
10 The witness did describe some Sombor licence plates and some registration
11 plates. And Mr. Bakrac is correct and I apologise for that --
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --
13 MS. MARCUS: I still have page 54, yes, that he asked about the
14 border crossings and it was not the ones with just the stickers. So I do
15 apologise to everyone for that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please move on.
17 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
18 Q. Now, in order to move around the SBWS - I'm leaving out the
19 border part now - with vehicles that just had stickers and no
20 registration plates on them, the SDG must have had the highest level of
21 authorisation from the SBWS authorities in order to secure such freedom
22 of movement; is that accurate?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You testified that the SDG "enjoyed the support of all the
25 institutions in the field. When I say that, I mean the government of
1 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem region as well as the military
2 structures, and I mean the JNA."
3 Now testified about the proximity of the SBWS government to the
4 Erdut SDG training centre and that government representatives would visit
5 the training centre regularly. Is this your evidence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'm just going to put a few more selections to you and then ask
8 you a series of questions about that.
9 You testified that you had "contact in particular with the
10 Territorial Defence command in Western Srem. We would list our needs,
11 and I personally would take that list to Dalj, which is where I would
12 hand over the list of our needs for that day."
13 And you added:
14 "We were members of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja,
15 and Western Srem."
16 You also testified that Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, was the TO
17 commander and that he was in the training centre at least five to six
18 times per month. This is your evidence. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. MARCUS: Can I refer the Chamber in relation to this to
21 Exhibit P494, page 5; and evidence on the 8th of December, 2010, at
22 transcript page 10030.
23 Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, you testified, therefore, that Goran Hadzic was
24 president of the SBWS government at the time you were there, in the fall
25 of 1991, and that he visited and even stayed in the SDG training centre
1 on a regular almost daily basis. In order to achieve such close
2 co-operation, there were regular meetings between Arkan, Badza, Hadzic,
3 and the military leadership in the SBWS. Would that be correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. MARCUS: Could I please refer the Chamber to Exhibit P494,
6 pages 5 and 6; as well as the transcript dated 27th of May, 2010, at
7 page 5447.
8 MR. JORDASH: May I ask the Prosecution, for tomorrow, to give us
9 a list of these transcript references, because tomorrow if we have to
10 examine after the witness -- after the Prosecution, it would be --
11 expedite things I think.
12 MS. MARCUS: No problem at all.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. MARCUS:
16 Q. The military leadership who you said were having regular meetings
17 with Arkan, Badza, and Hadzic, included Ilija Kojic as minister of
18 defence of SBWS; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you are aware that he was the one who appointed Mrgud as
21 deputy minister of defence?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. MARCUS: I refer the Chamber to Exhibits P16 and P1678.
24 Q. Were you aware, then, at the time that Badza was in charge of the
25 SBWS TO, he was employed by the Serbian MUP?
1 A. No. I thought he was from the surroundings, since he often
2 appeared and would meet those people whom I saw on a daily basis. So I
3 thought that he was from the area.
4 Q. So I suppose you were also not aware that at the same time
5 Ilija Kojic served as minister of defence for SBWS, that he was
6 officially employed by the Serbian MUP?
7 A. I wasn't aware of that.
8 MS. MARCUS: I refer the Chamber to Exhibits P325 and P1628.
9 Q. So your evidence is that Arkan and his SDG were in regular
10 communication with and co-ordination with Hadzic, Badza, and Kojic so
11 that all the forces in the area would be working together toward the same
12 goals. Would that be according to your knowledge?
13 A. Yes. But I wouldn't include Kojic. At those meetings I mostly
14 saw Mrgud Milovanovic a lot more than him. I wasn't present at their
15 meetings when they tried to reach agreements, so I don't know what they
16 agreed on. But that was basically the circle of individuals who, during
17 that period of time, took decisions.
18 Q. You have explained to us your role as the logistics co-ordinator
19 both in Erdut and later at the SDG headquarters in Belgrade. You must
20 have kept very careful records - in fact, you explained how carefully you
21 kept those records - of the logistics operations to ensure that the books
22 were kept carefully. Would that be accurate?
23 A. I did all I could to perform my duties to the best of my ability.
24 Q. Where are those records kept today?
25 A. I wouldn't know.
1 Q. Did you keep any of those records yourself for your own personal
3 A. No. And this personal file that I have provided to the Defence
4 was a file I had on me by chance. I didn't keep anything else and I
5 didn't have the desire to keep anything on me, to tell you the truth.
6 Q. When you left the SDG, according to the Defence that was in 1996,
7 where were the archives and all the documents stored at the time that you
8 last saw them?
9 A. In the party HQ. Or, rather, of the Serbian Volunteer Guards
10 Lugice Pravde [as interpreted] 1 is the address.
11 Q. During the time that you were in charge of logistics in Belgrade
12 in 1992, Vlado Vukotic was in charge of logistics at the SDG training
13 base in Erdut; is that correct?
14 A. No. It was in 1993. He was a volunteer from Belgrade. We know
15 each other, but I think that was later. It wasn't when I left. He
16 wasn't even in Erdut at the time that I was there. He arrived a lot
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In his previous
19 answer, the address the witness mentioned was "Ljutice Bogdana."
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. So in 1992, when you were in Belgrade, who was the corresponding
22 logistics co-ordinate at the SDG centre in Erdut?
23 A. We didn't have anyone in particular. Various individuals
24 succeeded each other to perform these duties, and they were designated as
25 the centre commander. There wasn't anyone who did the same sort of work
1 as I did. I covered a variety of duties in the centre, and this was then
2 broken down into three or four directions. So there were several
3 individuals who concerned themselves with these things. They had a
4 centre commander. Predrag Bojovic was there immediately after I left for
5 Belgrade, and I handed over some of my duties. He was a
6 lieutenant-colonel. He was a volunteer from the very first days when the
7 Serbian Volunteer Guards was established.
8 Q. So in 1992 you were actually operating in both Belgrade and
9 Erdut. Do we understand you correctly?
10 A. No, in Belgrade. But there were normal communications, because
11 everything that was needed was sent from Belgrade to Erdut. So there was
12 very close communication and it was necessary for there to be such
13 communication, for everything to function smoothly. From Belgrade I
14 communicated with people in Erdut and dealt with the problems that arose
15 in the course of the day, if there were any such problems, of course.
16 But, as I say, there wasn't just one person who was responsible for all
17 those duties, for all the logistics in Erdut who replaced me. I had to
18 deal with three or four individuals who had shared the duties I
19 previously performed in Erdut. So some of them were responsible for
20 volunteers. One of them was responsible for the warehouse. Another was
21 responsible for the food. There was one responsible for car repairs, for
22 everything that had to do with mechanical needs. So these individuals
23 were responsible for these things and I communicated with them from
24 Belgrade, and this all depended on what was needed at the time. But
25 there wasn't just one individual who performed all these duties. While I
1 was there, however, I did everything myself.
2 Q. You testified that you were informed a day before the Bijeljina
3 operation of the number of men who were to be involved in that operation.
4 So you were involved, then, in the logistical preparation for the
5 Bijeljina operation; is that your evidence?
6 A. Yes, to a certain extent. Yesterday I said that Arkan was very
7 proud of the fact that Biljana Plavsic had invited him to participate in
8 this action, and he made this known in front of a number of us who were
9 present at the time. And I was immediately given the task of compiling a
10 list of individuals who would be in a certain sense both in Belgrade and
11 in Erdut. This was done to have a record in case anyone was wounded or
12 killed, and we needed to have such records in both places.
13 Q. Just so that I understand your answer: You said you were given
14 the task of compiling a list of individuals who would be in a certain
15 sense both in Belgrade and in Erdut. Do you mean the list of individuals
16 who participated in the Bijeljina operation?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Were the preparations for the Bijeljina operation done in secret?
19 A. As far as I know, they weren't. But no one walked the streets
20 crying out about this. It was within the framework of Erdut, the Serbian
21 Volunteers Guard. I received information about the
22 60 [Realtime transcript read in error "16"] individuals who were supposed
23 to participate. No one told us about how confidential our role and task
24 was to be, if that's what you had in mind. Perhaps the army insisted on
25 such things, but I can't remember that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, could we seek clarification.
2 Did you talk about 16 or 60 individuals?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 60, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Ms. Marcus, I need three minutes at the end of this session.
6 Could you find a moment somewhere in the next two or three minutes to
7 conclude for the day.
8 MS. MARCUS: I think, Your Honour, just with one more question it
9 would be best then.
10 Q. Were you in Bijeljina before, during, or after that operation?
11 A. After the operation.
12 MS. MARCUS: I think I'll pause there for the day, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Marcus.
14 Mr. Dimitrijevic, we'll conclude for the day. We'd like to see
15 you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the morning.
16 Ms. Marcus, could you give us an indication already as the time
17 you'd need tomorrow?
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'm going to ask for the full time
19 which we noticed which was three hours. I've probably used about
20 45 minutes. So with your leave I would -- I would use the two hours and
21 15 minutes approximately that remain.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll see whether there's any chance that we
23 could conclude your testimony tomorrow. We'll try to do our utmost best
24 and so will the parties too.
25 I again instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or
1 communicate in any way about your testimony, whether testimony you gave
2 yesterday and today or testimony still to be given tomorrow. I further
3 remind you of the other instructions I gave to you earlier this morning.
4 Then could the usher escort the witness out of the courtroom.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, perhaps I could just inform the Chamber
8 of one thing while the witness is going out. This was in response to
9 Mr. Bakrac's question about Exhibit 2D901. We have not tendered that.
10 There was e-mail communication from us on the 16th of November, 2011, and
11 we repeated our position in court on the 21st of November, 2011, at
12 page 15037, generally that our position is that we oppose document --
13 redacted documents being admitted but in this particular instance, due to
14 the specific contents and the redactions that are contained therein, we
15 do not oppose its admission, so -- in redacted form, if the Chamber sees
16 fit. So we said we did not have any position against admission, but we
17 didn't actually tender the document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I could correct
20 my earlier mistake now. Perhaps this should be evidence that is under
22 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about numbers and sources which I not
23 immediately can match with. Is there anything at this moment,
24 Mr. Bakrac, you think we should do in order to ...
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There's a name
1 here. I'm not sure whether one can conclude that it concerns the
2 witness, that it relates to the witness, but there is the name of the
3 protected witness there, and that is why I think that this should perhaps
4 be a confidential document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But has it been tendered?
6 MS. MARCUS: It has not been tendered --
7 [overlapping speakers] --
8 JUDGE ORIE: If it has not been tendered, then of course
9 confidentiality -- I mean, the Chamber can rule on protective measures
10 for exhibits that are admitted into evidence. I do see that it is D647
11 apparently -- oh, that is the number that has been reserved for it. Yes,
12 so it's not yet tendered, but we have reserved the number for it. I
13 leave it to the parties whether they want to tender it, yes or no. But
14 the document itself needs --
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I suggested that it should be
16 admitted into evidence, but Ms. Marcus wanted some time to state her
17 position with regard to the allegations. I think she has now said that
18 she isn't against it, but I suggest that it be filed as a confidential
20 MS. MARCUS: We do not oppose admission. We do agree that it
21 should be under seal. And we request that the Simatovic Defence provide
22 a full translation, because it hasn't been translated yet. But we are
23 familiar with it and we do not oppose admission.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then pending a complete translation, D647 is
25 now marked for identification. And once the translation is there, the
1 full translation, it will be admitted.
2 That having said, the Chamber still needs an update for the
3 witness we discussed yesterday. I don't know how confidential details
4 are. I also do not know, but it's the witness who was hospitalised and
5 couldn't travel.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we were late
7 coming out of the courtroom. We tried to get the witness on the phone.
8 We tried again this morning. My team has been tasked with checking on
9 the situation, and we can inform you in writing to update you on the
10 witness situation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there's anything -- I mean, we're talking
12 about a witness who was supposed to appear next. So no problem if you
13 send us an e-mail. But do you say: "I have no further information at
14 this very moment"? Then we'll wait for your e-mail messages this
15 afternoon. If, however, you have any information, please share it with
16 the Prosecution and the Chamber.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Just let me tell you that if the
18 witness is not able to come, we can call DFS-009 next week, because
19 obviously we won't have the time to do it this week. So our next witness
20 D FS-009 can be called to come in next week.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it from your answer, where you say "if
22 the witness is not able to come," that you do not know?
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. If -- if --
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's then the brief answer to my question whether
25 you have any information. Apparently you have no such information which
1 allows you to say anything about whether he will be able to come. I
2 think we yesterday invited the parties to further see how to use the
3 coming days as efficiently as possible. The Chamber would like to be
4 informed about it, if possible, this afternoon.
5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I can tell you that the Prosecution's
6 position hasn't changed. But I have spoken with Mr. Jordash and the
7 witness that we talked about has testified several times. We do not know
8 whether he speaks English, so it likely is that he's going to have to sit
9 down and listen to audio tapes of the six or so trials that he testified
10 in. So I think it's probably not possible for that witness to achieve
11 all of that before next week. The Prosecution will be prepared to
12 cross-examine the next witness. It is very challenging and we may come
13 to the Chamber seeking some additional time if we are unable to complete
14 our preparations, but we will work towards that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber staff -- [overlapping speakers] --
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- the Chamber staff is instructed to
18 communicate with the parties this afternoon to see where we are and what
19 exactly is within the possibilities and what is not within the
20 possibilities. I would rather not spend further time on it at this
21 moment in court, unless there is a matter which you say we should know
22 before we adjourn. There is not.
23 Then we adjourn. And we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
24 19th of January, 9.00, in this same courtroom, II.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
2 January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.