1 Tuesday, 24 January 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 I was informed there are a few preliminaries to deal with. I
7 have a few as well.
8 The first one, however, would be that the Chamber would
9 appreciate if the -- yes, I first -- could I invite Madam Registrar to
10 called the case.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
13 and Franko Simatovic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 The first one would be that if the Defence would start
16 distributing the materials at such a time in the morning that the Chamber
17 doesn't have to wait until it is done, that would be appreciated.
18 Because we can't start without an usher, and if the usher is running
19 around even after 9.00 to distribute materials, then that should have
20 started earlier.
21 Then the first issue.
22 Mr. Jordash, on the 19th of January, you have requested that
23 parts of your cross-examination of Witness Jovan Dimitrijevic on
24 18th of January would be made public, that was the parts that were in
25 private session. You're hereby invited to give precise, from line here
1 to line there, so that the Registry is better able to prepare for it once
2 we've given an order, and for the Chamber to verify.
3 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Then we -- yes, and once you've done that, Mr. Jordash, of course
6 the other parties are invited to review the references, the exact
7 references, to the transcript so as to inform the Chamber whether they
8 have any objection against those portions to become public.
9 Then for the next item we move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 16299-16307 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 Before I give you an opportunity, Ms. Marcus, to address the
22 Chamber, I would like to put on the record a matter which was dealt with
23 in private session which could have been dealt with in open session.
24 That is, that the Stanisic Defence has informed the Chamber that it will
25 not call Witness DST-081.
1 Ms. Marcus, please proceed.
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution would like
3 to note that we are still not in receipt of the Simatovic proposed
4 military expert report in English. We are increasingly concerned about
5 the delays in receipt of this report, in particular in light of the
6 length. We'd like to emphasise that the report, when provided, should
7 include the -- in the footnotes the references to exhibit numbers, 65 ter
8 numbers, or other reference information so as not to delay the process of
9 reviewing this report even further.
10 And the last issue I'd like to raise, Your Honour, is that we
11 appreciate the agreement with Simatovic Defence to provide us with the
12 documents for upcoming witnesses seven days in advance. I'd just like it
13 to be clear that the seven day in advance is for English translations.
14 For us to receive the B/C/S documents seven days in advance and the
15 English translations 24 hours in advance is basically the same thing as
16 providing the documents at the last minute. We had a great deal of
17 difficulty, I think, with the past two witnesses with respect to
18 translations, and we would request that that agreement apply to the
19 English translations, please.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any need to comment?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 With regard to the first issue raised by my learned colleague, we
24 still have not yet received the translation of the expert report. We
25 were promised to receive the report by the middle of this month. I
1 informed you of the fact we haven't yet received it. The -- and as soon
2 as it is available, we will provide the report.
3 As far as the footnotes are concerned, that should accompany the
4 report. We are working hard to identify the documents, and we will
5 inform the Prosecution of the results. We are trying to tie up all the
6 documents in the file to include them in the expert report, and this will
7 facilitate the work for all the parties, including the Prosecution, in
8 the proceedings.
9 We did the same for the police expert. We provided our
10 colleagues with the report, with the footnotes, including P, D, and
11 65 ter numbers. Unfortunately some translations are still missing. But
12 everything that still concerns that report has been submitted for
13 translation, and we expect these translations to be available very soon,
14 both us and for the Prosecution, of course.
15 As far as the second issue raised by my learned colleague is
16 concerned, the issue that concerns the translation of documents used with
17 witnesses, we are trying to act as diligently as possible with regard to
18 that matter too. It is to a certain extent outside our control.
19 Unfortunately, when the proofing of the witness has been completed,
20 sometimes it proves to be necessary to produce some additional documents,
21 as a result of which concern problems are created. But we are really
22 trying to respect the seven-day deadline. But unfortunately certain
23 things are beyond our control. It all depends on the capacity of the
24 translation unit. But I believe that no one puts into dispute our
25 goodwill with regard to this issue.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I see there are a lot of good intentions. Whether
2 that would do is matters still to be seen. I don't know whether that
3 saying also exists in the English language, but in my own language there
4 is a saying that good intentions pave the way to a place where you would
5 rather not want to be. Could you please keep that in mind, that the
6 result is what counts. And --
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The same expression exists in our
8 language, Your Honour. But I believe that this will not be the case, as
9 far as our efforts are concerned.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and I just
11 wanted to point at that good intentions do not always lead to the kind of
12 success we are all aware is needed.
13 Ms. Marcus, I leave it to that for the time being. Apparently in
14 the many languages similar expressions do exist.
15 Then, if there's no -- Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours.
17 We do have one additional matter that pertains to the next
18 witness, if we may proceed with that right now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
20 MR. WEBER: With respect to the next witness, the
21 Simatovic Defence disclosed a notice to a large quantity of materials
22 this past week, materials that are not on the Defence exhibit list.
23 These materials included an extensive amount of video footage provided on
24 CDs that contain a programme which allows us to view the videos but not
25 process them in our system. These videos also appear highly edited; at
1 this time we do not know by whom. Examples of these edits include the
3 During a speech by the witness which is uploaded as
4 65 ter 2D1016.1, and appears to be from the 11th of October, 1995, there
5 is an edit after the witness states:
6 "On this day five years ago."
7 And we do not know what is said after that comment.
8 Also, the videos include an interview with the witness and he is
9 asked by an English-speaking reporter:
10 "What do you have to say about the allegations of ethnic
11 cleansing in Sanski Most?"
12 And the answer is cut.
13 The Prosecution finds these edits to be relevant and curious.
14 We would ask that the Simatovic Defence provide us with the
15 complete unedited videos in an acceptable format. The Prosecution
16 further requests that if the Simatovic Defence is going to use these
17 videos and they're allowed to be added onto their exhibit list in their
18 present form, that they be marked for identification pending the receipt
19 of the unedited videos.
20 Next: We also received notice of five documents that are to be
21 added. These are 2D904, 2D905, 2D906, 2D1018, and 2D1019.
22 We received the translations to 2D905 and 906 this morning.
23 Based on the threshold provided and although there is significantly late
24 notice, including late notice of substance related to this witness's
25 testimony in a proofing note yesterday, we do believe that it would be
1 most efficient to allow the -- the documents to be added to the Defence
2 exhibit list at this time. However, the Prosecution does reserve some
3 issues with respect to the eventual admission of these documents.
4 There were also photos that were provided to us. These are
5 2D1020, 2D1034, which -- it is our understanding that it was provided by
6 the witness during proofing that past weekend. There is unknown
7 information about these photos, although we do recognise the individuals
8 who are present in the photos. For the basis of adding the photos to the
9 Defence exhibit list, the Prosecution does not oppose it; however, we
10 will further discuss some additional information with them.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
13 Editing the videos, Mr. Bakrac. Who edited the videos?
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we received these
15 videos from the witness and provided them to the Prosecution in the form
16 that we received them. As far as I can see - I'm not certain about this,
17 however - the witness said that these videos were made 16 years ago on
18 VHS video tapes. And they were then transferred to DVDs. I have nothing
19 against Mr. Weber's suggestion that they should retain MFI numbers and we
20 could later try to obtain the original VHS tapes, if they exist, and we
21 could then provide the Prosecution with these VHS tapes that I assume
22 were used to make the DVDs.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not know whether the Prosecution is that
24 much interested in the original VHS if they are edited in the same way as
25 what we find on the DVDs. If, however, the VHS copies are more extensive
1 and then reduced when put on a DVD, then I can imagine that you would
2 like to see the original material.
3 But an answer to Mr. Weber's question is not there yet: Who
4 edited it? And I think if the witness provides them, then the first
5 question should be to the witness: who edited them; where the original
6 material is.
7 And another matter. When the accused is shown on the video to be
8 speaking, then, of course, the admissibility of such evidence may relate
9 to what kind of questions are put to the witness. If it is just to have
10 in evidence some statements of the accused [sic], then, of course, if we
11 do not know what the source is when the accused cannot be cross-examined
12 on the statements he makes, that is a matter still to be considered
14 I also noticed that the amount of video material is considerable.
15 And the Chamber will carefully look at how it is used. And, Mr. Bakrac,
16 since it is your witness, videos should not play a role in leading the
17 witness; so therefore, you are expected to do the same as we always
18 expect a calling party to do, that is, to first see whether the evidence
19 can be elicited without showing material. And only if that's not
20 possible or if that does not -- or if that causes the need to further put
21 to the witness some material, then, of course, that can be done. But
22 please be aware that this kind of material requires a very precise and
23 cautious approach, as far as eliciting evidence from a witness is
24 concerned. It could not be to ask the witness: Have you ever seen this
25 video? Of course he has, because he gave it to you. And then to say,
1 "Okay, that's then the evidence," that's perhaps not the way we should
3 Mr. Weber, I added even a few concerns to yours. Mr. Bakrac
4 doesn't know who edited the video.
5 Didn't you ask, Mr. Bakrac? Didn't you ask the witness where
6 does it come from, who edited it?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the interpretation I am
8 receiving is changed. If I have understood the witness correctly, the
9 video was made by someone -- in fact, could we move into private session,
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 16316-16317 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, while
11 waiting for the witness, I need to apologise to you because this morning
12 the usher was busy distributing documents. Yesterday in the course of
13 the proofing of this witness we spoke about certain photographs. The
14 witness then called home and asked his wife to provide him with an
15 additional three photographs, and our assistant, our case manager, had to
16 upload these photographs, which is why we were late in distributing these
17 transcripts. I do apologise if the Chamber had to wait as a result of
18 this event. In future, we will make sure that this does not happen
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pelevic, if I'm well informed.
23 Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require
24 that you make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: BORISLAV PELEVIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Pelevic.
7 Mr. Pelevic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac
8 is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
9 Mr. Bakrac, if you're ready, please proceed.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour. Thank you very
12 Examination by Mr. Bakrac:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pelevic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Kindly introduce yourself for the record. What is your name and
16 when and where were you born?
17 A. My name is Borislav Pelevic. I was born on the
18 22nd November, 1956, in the village of Bublje municipality, Orahovac, in
19 Kosovo and Metohija in Serbia.
20 Q. Mr. Pelevic, kindly tell us what is your profession or what is
21 your educational background.
22 A. I have a Ph.D.
23 Q. Could you please tell us briefly what is your educational
25 A. I graduated from the school of economics in Pristina. I obtained
1 my masters in Pristina. And I obtained my Ph.D. from the school of sport
2 and tourism in Novi Sad.
3 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we have to make pauses between questions and answers
4 since we speak the same language. My question needs to be interpreted
5 first before you can start giving your answer. Therefore, I would kindly
6 ask you to wait a little before you start replying to my questions.
7 A. I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I think that already for the reasons you
9 indicated, part of the answer is not on the record.
10 You said you obtained your masters in Pristina. And then you
11 gave additional information. Could you please repeat that additional
12 information. I think I heard Novi Sad being mentioned.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said that I had obtained my
14 Ph.D. in Novi Sad.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I think you also
16 referred to the subjects.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I had graduated from
18 the school of sports and tourism.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Pelevic, could you please tell us where are you currently
23 A. Currently I work as am MP in the Assembly of Serbia.
24 Q. In addition to being an MP, do you have some other duties? And
25 if that is the case, could you please tell us what duties are those.
1 A. Yes. I teach at the school of sports and health in Belgrade.
2 Also I'm the president of the kick-box association of Serbia. I'm also a
3 vice-president of the world kick-box organisation and the president of
4 the referee committee of the kick-box organisation.
5 Q. You have just told us that you are the president of the referee
6 committee of the kick-box organisation. Which organisation is that?
7 A. It is the World Kickboxing Federation.
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, please tell us something else. We will skip some
9 parts of your educational and profession background, and we'll move
10 straightly on to some very specific subjects.
11 At one point in the 1990s you joined the Serbian Volunteer
12 Guards. When was that?
13 A. I joined the Serbian Volunteer Guard on the
14 10th of January, 1992.
15 Q. Could you please tell us how you joined. What motivated you?
16 How did you join the Serbian Volunteer Guard?
17 A. My brother was a volunteer in the JNA before me. We had agreed
18 as a family that he would be the first one to join as a volunteer, and
19 then when he returned it was my turn. However, when he returned from the
20 front line, he told me that he was not very satisfied with the
21 organisation of the then-JNA. He told me that there was a visible lack
22 of discipline there, and he told me that I should join the Serbian
23 Volunteer Guard. He saw them in action on the front line and he thought
24 that that would be something for me as a former athlete. That they are
25 the real army. That's how I decided to volunteer.
1 I went to the recruiting office of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in
2 Belgrade, I volunteered, and then two days later I was transported in a
3 van to Erdut where the headquarters was, as well as the training centre
4 of the Serbian Volunteer Guard.
5 Q. Were you alone in that van or was there anybody else with you?
6 A. There was me and two other volunteers. They were also recruited.
7 Q. How were you dressed? And where did you cross the border from
8 Serbia to Slavonia?
9 A. I wore civilian clothes. We crossed the border across the bridge
10 near Bogojevo, very close to Erdut.
11 Q. Were you stopped at the bridge?
12 A. I remember that there was a soldier, a JNA soldier. He just
13 saluted the driver, and we crossed without ever being checked.
14 Q. When you arrived in Erdut, who received you there? And what
15 happened next? Could you please tell us.
16 A. We went through the gate. A man, a tall man who came across as
17 having authority, waited for us at the entrance into the centre. And
18 then he first asked me, Are you that master of arts or sciences? And I
19 said yes. And then he sent the other two to the barber because they had
20 very long hair. I did not have to have my hair cut. I had short hair
21 already. And he ordered me to share a room with a sergeant from
23 Q. If I understood you properly, when you volunteered you had a
24 master's degree in economics.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were you employed? And if that was the case, where?
2 A. I was the general manager of the Sportinvest public company based
3 in Belgrade. And also I was the president of the kick-box federation of
4 Serbia. I apologise, the kick-box federation of Yugoslavia.
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I again insist
6 on making a pause between question and answer.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, when you arrived in Erdut, did you have to fill out
9 a form? And if that was the case, who asked you to do that?
10 A. Yes, I filled out a form. There was a clerk there who asked me
11 to it that. Later on I learned that his name was Jovan Dimitrijevic.
12 Q. On the day when you arrived in Erdut, were you issued with a
13 uniform? And if that was the case, what kind of a uniform was that?
14 A. Yes. I was issued with a woolen olive-drab uniform that had
15 previously been worn by the soldiers of the JNA. For the first few days,
16 all of us volunteers were issued with that kind of uniform. And also
17 those who served a sentence, guard members, also used to wear it. We
18 called it a partisan uniform, and that's why, when we were mocked, we
19 were also referred to as partisans.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to say for
21 the benefit of the booths that in the next couple of minutes I'm going to
22 up 2D1017.1 which is a video-clip.
23 Q. Mr. Pelevic, when you were issued with that so-called partisan
24 uniform, were you also issued with any weapons during those first couple
25 of days?
1 A. No.
2 Q. What were your initial duties when you first joined the guards,
3 when you volunteered, and when you arrived in Erdut?
4 A. On the following morning, I was ordered to clean the barracks
5 perimeter from cigarette butts, and that's what I did for the first three
6 days after my arrival in Erdut. That's what I did the whole day.
7 Q. And then what happened?
8 A. I asked my sergeant, who was also my roommate, to arrange a
9 meeting with my company commander. My company commander was an officer,
10 and I told him that I had not come to Erdut to clean the perimeter from
11 cigarette butts but to fight for the freedom of my people. If I was not
12 given a good uniform and good weapons and if I was not sent for training,
13 it was my intention to leave Erdut and to go back to Belgrade. I told
14 him all that.
15 Q. What happened next? Were you issued with weapons? Were you
16 issued with another type of uniform?
17 A. He told me that he would have a word with Commander Arkan about
18 that, and that in the course of the day he would keep me posted. In the
19 course of the day, I was still cleaning. He approached me and told me
20 that the commander approved my membership, my regular membership in the
21 company, and that he agreed that I should start training.
22 Q. Were you issued with the weapons and did your uniform change
23 after that?
24 A. Yes. I was issued with an olive-drab overall, a pair of boots,
25 and I was also issued with an automatic rifle, M-70.
1 Q. You said an olive-drab overall.
2 I would like to call up a video-clip, and I would invite your
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can play this
5 video-clip without sound. For everybody's benefit, please pay attention
6 to the events and the faces.
7 Q. And then after the video-clip is played, I will have some
8 questions for you.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like called up 2D1017.1.
10 This is from the Prosecutor's disclosure list.
11 MR. WEBER: If we could just have the full ERN, the VOOO number.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. VOOO-2253.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Pelevic, do you recognise -- or, rather, do you know anything
16 about this event depicted in the video-clip?
17 A. This is General Bratic's burial, who had formally been the
18 commander of the Novi Sad Corps.
19 Q. Could you please tell us when he was the commander of the
20 Novi Sad Corps, up to then, and who succeeded him?
21 A. I don't know exactly when he was killed. I only know that he was
22 killed on the Trpinje road. I learned that subsequently. It was all
23 over the media. But I know that he was succeeded by
24 General Andrija Biorcevic as the commander of the Novi Sad Corps.
25 Q. Did you recognise Mr. Raznjatovic, did you recognise his uniform,
1 and did you recognise the person he was standing next to during the
3 A. Yes. I recognised him wearing the olive-drab overall that all of
4 us wore. Absolutely the same kind.
5 Next to him was the then-president of the Serbian region of
6 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, Goran Hadzic. I recognised a few --
7 a couple of other highly-ranking officers. I saw General Blagoje Adzic
8 standing behind the flag. He was the deputy chief of the General Staff
9 at the time. And the person who spoke was Goran Hadzic. And the person
10 still on the screen is Lieutenant-General Zivota Panic. I believe that
11 he was the chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia at the
12 time, which means that he occupied the highest ranking position.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
17 2D1017.1 into evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: No objection if it's admitted with the transcript
20 provided, since the transcript does provide some additional information
21 as to where this funeral occurred, things like that, which I imagine is
22 not in dispute if it's being tendered.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's played without audio, so therefore it
24 might be a bit difficult to introduce something into evidence the Chamber
25 hasn't seen.
1 Unless the parties would agree that the comment provides the
2 additional information as to location and time, we would then
3 consider ...
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that the Registry is not provided
6 with the videos, so therefore it's difficult to have it in the e-court
7 system if it's only on a -- played from a DVD, or I don't know how it
8 works, but ...
9 We reserve a number for this clip, and then during the break,
10 Mr. Bakrac, you may explain to Madam Registrar what it is. Meanwhile,
11 the parties are invited to see whether they can agree on either a
12 transcript -- or if you agree on when this took place and where it took
13 place, then, of course, that agreement could be put on the record.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me explain why we
15 played a clip without the sound.
16 I believe that we follow the common practice. What I mean with
17 that is that the Trial Chamber tends not to like the commentary provided
18 on those video-clips.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming you in any way for it. It doesn't
20 need an explanation. But Mr. Weber rightly points at the fact that we
21 have no information about time and location. He suggests one way of
22 introducing that information. There may be others as well. I left that
23 to the parties during the break, which we'll take now.
24 And we'll resume at quarter to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any report as to the location and time of the last
3 video we looked at?
4 MR. WEBER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I'm not sure
5 my microphone is working.
6 Your Honour, we're still checking the exact date of the funeral.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we had a look at the video. Tell me, after
11 General Bratic was killed, who became the head of the Novi Sad Corps?
12 A. Andrija Biorcevic, lieutenant-general, became the head of the
13 Novi Sad Corps.
14 Q. You mentioned olive-green overalls. And you said the ones that
15 you saw on Arkan, that you saw at the funeral, was the kind that you wore
16 too. Do you know where these overalls were obtained, and how?
17 A. At the time, I couldn't know. I was just a recruit. But later I
18 found out that we received the first uniforms from the JNA, or the
19 Army of Yugoslavia in fact.
20 Q. Did you have any information according to which you received
21 other things from the Army of Yugoslavia apart from the uniforms?
22 A. Yes. We received weapons and relevant equipment: ammunition,
23 Zoljas, bombs or grenades, and Osas.
24 Q. When you say "weapons," what do you have in mind? What kind of
25 weapons did you in fact receive?
1 A. When I arrived at the guards, there were various types of weapons
2 there. There were automatic rifles, M-70 automatic rifles, and there
3 were semi-automatic rifles as well. There were also perhaps four or five
4 Hecklers, small automatic weapons, Hecklers and Kochs [as interpreted],
5 that commander Arkan had on him, as well as a few other officers.
6 Q. Do you know where Arkan and these officers obtained those
7 Heckler & Koch weapons? And what kind of weapons are they, what are they
8 used for?
9 A. Since I'm quite familiar with weapons, I found it quite
10 surprising that some officers had automatic Heckler & Koch rifles with
11 them, and naturally I was curious and asked my superiors where they these
12 items were obtained from. They said they had been seized in an operation
13 in the vicinity of Osijek, I believe.
14 But since you've asked me what the purpose of such weapons is, I
15 would say that these weapons aren't really used on the battle-field.
16 It's more the case that special units in towns used these weapons. So
17 the war-time weapons that were used the most in this war were automatic
18 and semi-automatic rifles. Semi-automatic rifles were later excluded
19 when we received other weapons from the JNA, or, rather, from the Army of
21 Q. You said that you later tried to obtain information. When you
22 became close to Mr. Arkan, did you find out how the Serbian Volunteer
23 Guards and how Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, obtained these weapons from the
25 A. I found out about this from three sources. From Commander Arkan,
1 he was the first source. He told me that the weapons were obtained from
2 the Army of Yugoslavia because that was the agreement he had reached with
3 the minister of defence today, Tomislav Simovic. The second source was
4 General Biorcevic. We became fairly good friends later on, and he
5 confirmed this. And Ms. Dobrila Glisic was another source. She wrote a
6 book on the events. She was the chef de cabinet for General Simovic, the
7 minister of defence. And it so happens that she's a friend of the
8 parents of my wife. The father of my wife was a neurosurgeon at the
9 military medical academy, and he treated her son. So she told me about
10 the meeting between the commander, Arkan, and General Tomislav Simovic,
11 the minister of defence of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
12 Q. Do you know who referred Arkan to General Simovic, the minister
13 of defence of the Republic of Yugoslavia?
14 A. Yes, I know who referred him. Radmilo Bogdanovic did, when he
15 was the Ministry of the Interior in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
16 Arkan asked him for his assistance since they knew each other.
17 And Radmilo Bogdanovic was an official in the Crvena Zvijezda
18 football club. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was the leader for the Crvena
19 Zvijezda fans. On that occasion they had to be in contact. He told him
20 that some Crvena Zvijezda fans, together with himself, had decided to
21 found the Serbian Volunteer Guards and go to the Slavonia battle-field.
22 And he asked for the assistance in the form of weapons and equipment.
23 Radmilo Bogdanovic said that this was not possible, and he referred him
24 to the minister of defence, Tomislav Simovic. And this meeting was held
25 and had the results that I have already mentioned.
1 Q. When you joined the guards in January 1992 as you said, from that
2 point in time onwards when you were in Erdut did you receive any weapons,
3 any additional weapons? And if so, from whom?
4 A. As far as weapons themselves are concerned, large amounts did not
5 regularly arrive. The situation was normal. But if there was a
6 defective rifle or if a rifle was lost, then we would request that the TO
7 based in Dalj provide us with weapons. But two or three times a week we
8 requested that they provide us with ammunition, because a lot of
9 ammunition was used for training, when the volunteers, the Serbian
10 Volunteer Guards, were being trained.
11 In one day one combatant would use at least 60 bullets, two
12 clips. Then we asked the TO, the Territorial Defence, for ammunition.
13 Not just ammunition, but also for Zoljas, hand-held rocket-launchers that
14 could be used once. We also requested that they provide us with
15 grenades, hand grenades. So this is the way in which we would obtain
16 ammunition supplies.
17 Q. You said that you came across automatic and semi-automatic rifles
18 in Erdut. Were the semi-automatic rifles replaced at some point in time?
19 If so, in what manner and how were they replaced? Who did this?
20 A. This occurred after a battle in which the Serbian Volunteer
21 Guards captured six --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: eight.
23 THE WITNESS: -- tanks. Six of the tanks we handed over to the
24 army immediately, and we kept two of them. The reason for keeping those
25 two tanks is unknown to me since we didn't a tank corps or tank unit in
1 the guards. But later I understood that commander Arkan did this quite
2 skilfully. He wanted to exchange these two tanks for new automatic
3 rifles so that the guards would no longer have these other weapons that
4 weren't as good as automatic rifles. And this is what happened in
5 agreement with General Andrija Biorcevic and his Chief of Staff,
6 Bore Jovancevic [phoen]. An agreement was reached according to which a
7 large amount of automatic rifles and accompanying equipment would be
8 provided for those two tanks. So we gave them the PUP semi-automatic
9 rifles, and in return we received "papovke" automatic rifles. There were
10 no other significant changes from that point in time onwards when it
11 comes to the weapons that the guards had at their disposal.
12 Q. Mr. Pelevic, when you mention the names of certain items, could
13 you please slow down a bit so that the interpretation booths can
14 translate what you are saying.
15 When these captured tanks were exchanged for those weapons, tell
16 me, were you already in the guards at the time or did this take place
17 prior to that?
18 A. No, that happened before I joined the guards. But I heard this
19 from my colleagues, other volunteers. And later, Commander Arkan told me
20 about this, as well as General Andrija Biorcevic, about some interesting
21 situations that concerned that exchange. So they were very happy to go
22 over that subject matter.
23 Q. When you joined the guards -- in fact, first - I do apologise -
24 tell me, Do you know whether there was another way in which Arkan
25 obtained uniforms for his troops; and, if so, could you briefly tell us
1 how he obtained them and where he obtained them from?
2 A. Yes. Commander Arkan always wanted his guards to be the best
3 equipped guards. He wanted their units to be -- their uniforms to be
4 better than the uniforms of those of everyone else in the battle-field.
5 Part of the uniforms, part of the camouflage uniforms, were received from
6 someone who donated them in Canada. But the quantity wasn't sufficient
7 for all the guards, so one overall was taken to Novi Sad, to
8 Stankamenac [phoen], a man called Stankamenac, and he used that uniform
9 to make a certain number of camouflage uniforms. I know that some of
10 those uniforms were also sewn in the Yumco factory in Kosovo and
11 Metohija. I think it was in Kosovo Polje, but I'm not sure about that.
12 Q. Was there also a shop where it was possible to openly buy certain
13 equipment? And do you know whether Arkan went there to obtain certain
14 supplies as well?
15 A. Yes. There was such a shop, and I believe that the shop still
16 exists. The name of the shop is Magnum, or perhaps it's called Army Shop
17 today. You can buy equipment and uniforms, but now weapons. You can buy
18 hunting knives, but not other weapons. I know that Commander Arkan
19 bought just for the officers some very nice uniforms in that shop in
20 Belgrade. He bought some knives and officer boots, so that the officers
21 looked quite different from the ordinary soldiers, from us who were the
23 Q. Did you have any other additional equipment obtained from that
24 private shop?
25 A. I can't remember.
1 Q. Mr. Pelevic, tell me -- or, rather, you described the first three
2 days for us, and then you said that you were issued with a different type
3 of uniform, which was a green overall, and that you were issued with an
4 M-70 automatic rifle.
5 What happened next? What did you do at the beginning of 1992 at
6 the Erdut centre?
7 A. As soon as I became a regular member of my unit, I started
8 training, which lasted three months. Before completing their training,
9 no volunteer could be sent to a front line or on a mission. My
10 lieutenant noticed that I was in good shape. I was a karate master and I
11 had trained other martial arts. Fifteen days into my stay, he asked me
12 to be his assistant when it came to the physical training of not just the
13 company, but the entire guard. Some 20 days later, therefore, I started
14 training people.
15 What I was impressed with in the guard was a high level of
16 discipline. People were not allowed to consume alcohol. We showed a lot
17 of respect to our superiors and vice versa; they respected us as well.
18 So the entire atmosphere in the guards was really very good. I found it
19 really very good.
20 Q. When you started training other people, what was the relationship
21 between Arkan and the commander of the Novi Sad Corps? Did the latter
22 ever come to the headquarters in Erdut? Did Arkan or perhaps you as well
23 go to their staff, to the army staff? And if you did, why did you do so?
24 A. Yes. General Biorcevic came several times while I was in Erdut.
25 He paid the centre, the 101st Centre in Erdut a visit. And whenever he
1 came, Commander Arkan lined up all of the guards. General Biorcevic
2 saluted the volunteers as soon as he arrived in the centre. And the
3 first thing he told us was, Comrade, soldiers, I salute you. That was
4 the common salute in the former army. And then we would respond, God be
5 with you. That was kind of sweet at first, but then he gave up on
6 saluting us.
7 Q. Mr. Pelevic, did Arkan ever go to the Novi Corps Staff? If he
8 did, do you know who he visited and why?
9 A. General Biorcevic had some sort of a staff on a boat or on a
10 ship. I believe that the name of that ship was either Kozara or Sutiska,
11 I'm not sure. But it was either the name of a mountain or a river from
13 The commander would go there. On two occasions, when we became
14 close, I went with him to that staff. And on one occasion, we also dined
15 with Vladika, of Osijek and Dalj, Lukijan. Because we as guards repaired
16 his church that the Croatian soldiers or volunteers had partly damaged.
17 The restoration works lasted for about two months, and after their
18 completion Vladika Lukijan invited Commander Arkan, myself,
19 General Biornevic [phoen], and General Boro Ivanovic, the Chief of Staff
20 of the Novi Sad Corps, to lunch.
21 Q. And how my last question on that topic.
22 From the moment you arrived in Erdut, did you go on any joint
23 missions with the army? And if that was the case, under whose command
24 did you act?
25 A. Mr. Bakrac, I don't understand your question. Are you referring
1 to the period before the real combat started; or are you referring to
2 some smaller-sized actions that were carried out?
3 Q. When you joined the guards, did you hear that the Serbian
4 Volunteer Guard carried out some operation in late 1991?
5 A. Oh, yes, now I understand your question. I didn't at first.
6 The Serbian Volunteer Guard together with the military carried
7 out actions almost all over Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem. I would
8 like to point out the Operation Luzac, where our guards launched an
9 infantry attack and they were supported by the Army of Yugoslavia
10 artillery and tanks, since we did not have any tanks.
11 Q. Who was in command in those actions and operations? What can you
12 tell us about the command function?
13 A. We always received our orders from the corps commander of the
14 Army of Yugoslavia. At first that was General Bratic. He was succeeded
15 by General Biorcevic. And their inferiors, colonels, or
16 lieutenant-colonel. However, no operation would be undertaken without
17 the co-operation of the Army of Yugoslavia.
18 Q. Mr. Pelevic, that's something that you learned when you arrived
19 there. From the moment you arrived, did you carry out any actions in
20 1992 together with the Army of Yugoslavia?
21 A. In 1992, there were just a few smaller-sized operations. For
22 example, we received information from the army that a ship on its way
23 from Romania was carrying mercenaries for the Croatian army. We stopped
24 that ship, we established that the allegations were true, and we ordered
25 the captain to go back to Romania. That was an action that I
1 participated in. And there were some other smaller ones, such as
2 countering their scouts that infiltrated in our territory. We also sent
3 our scouts to surveil their territory in depth. I always participated in
4 those smaller actions.
5 Q. Mr. Pelevic, your centre in Erdut, who did it belong to? Can
6 define that for us? When you arrived, when you saw the situation, did
7 you learn what the name of the centre was and who that centre belonged
9 A. When I arrived, I saw a big billboard at the very entrance into
10 the centre, and the inscription on there was the 101st Training Centre of
11 the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, which
12 means that it belonged to the Territorial Defence and its headquarters
13 was in Dalj, a town very close to Erdut.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic. Do you know who the commander of the
15 Territorial Defence was when you arrived, the Territorial Defence of the
16 autonomous region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?
17 A. Yes, I know that. Because he often came to the training centre.
18 His name was Radovan Stojicic, Badza. He was the commander of the
19 Territorial Defence. And by virtue of that position he was our superior
20 commander, because we were a Territorial Defence unit for the region of
21 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
22 Q. Mr. Pelevic, in the former Yugoslavia, the Territorial Defence
23 was under whose jurisdiction? Not just one Territorial Defence, but all
24 of the Territorial Defence forces, under whose jurisdiction were they?
25 A. Under the jurisdictions of the military force.
1 Q. Mr. Pelevic, the camp in Erdut, did there come a time when things
2 changed? I apologise, I'll rephrase my question.
3 First of all tell me, Do you know and can you define the
4 relationship between Arkan and Radovan Stojicic, Badza?
5 A. I would say that their relationship was not as members of the
6 military but as friends. Friends. Badza often came to our centre and
7 the two of them forged a very sincere friendship with the common goal to
8 defend the territory. Their relationship was fair and friendly, I would
10 Q. Mr. Pelevic, to your knowledge, did anybody come to the training
11 centre in Erdut while you were there, or before you were there, as a
12 representative of the MUP of Serbia or the state security of Serbia?
13 A. No. I'm sure that nobody did.
14 There was quite a great detail of animosity between the guards
15 and the MUP of Serbia and especially between the guards and the state
16 security of Serbia.
17 Q. Mr. Pelevic, is it true that Radovan Stojicic, Badza, once he
18 stopped being the commander of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia,
19 Baranja, and Western Srem, somewhat later became an assistant minister of
20 the MUP of Serbia and the chief of the public security department?
21 A. Yes. It's a notorious fact. Everybody knows that.
22 Q. Can you explain the difference for us. You said that Arkan was
23 close to Radovan Stojicic, Badza, who later became what he did. And at
24 the same time you're telling me that the Serbian Volunteer Guard, all of
25 its members, and Arkan harboured quite a lot of animosity towards the MUP
1 and the DB.
2 How can you explain that?
3 A. I can tell you briefly. That animosity was due to the fact that
4 we thought that the DB, i.e., the secret police and the police in
5 general, saw Arkan as a person with a criminal record. That was our
6 perception. And I don't think that our perception was far off. And it
7 was sold to the media all the time. They wanted to undermine
8 Commander Arkan's credibility and the guards' successes.
9 But let me explain the nature of the relationship with
10 Radovan Stojicic, Badza. As I've already told you, that relationship was
11 created on the ground, in Slavonia. Badza was the commander of the
12 Territorial Defence as well as the commander of the Serbian Volunteer
13 Guard that was part of the Territorial Defence. So that friendship
14 cannot -- does not -- must not be confused with Arkan's attitude towards
15 the police and the DB.
16 This was a very personal relationship, and that continued to
17 exist all the way up to Badza's death. I really know a lot about that,
18 and a distinction has to be made. Badza was an assistant minister of
19 public security, not the secret police, and there's a distinction there.
20 Q. Mr. Pelevic, you said that you -- you claim that nobody from the
21 MUP and especially not from the DB of Serbia came to our
22 camp [as interpreted]. Did you ever doubt that there was somebody in the
23 Erdut camp who could perhaps leak information to the MUP or the DB of
25 A. All secret services everywhere in the world try to infiltrate
1 their own people into those spheres of life or those units that they want
2 to monitor, check, or discredit. That's why we assumed that out of the
3 250 to 300 volunteers there must have been a spy or two. We were really
4 not that naive not to doubt that. We had our suspicions about a
5 volunteer who was a very brave soldier, a very intelligent and
6 resourceful person; however, he arose our suspicions with his behaviour.
7 He often made telephone calls, but not from the centre in Erdut but from
8 the centre of the village. He often applied for leaves. And according
9 to a story, in Belgrade he was once seen in front of the DB building.
10 There was no way for us to confirm our suspicions, and it remains
11 unproven to this day whether he was, indeed, a DB agent or not.
12 However, out of the abundance of caution, he was expelled from
13 the guards.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I
15 would like the Chamber to move into private session. I would like to ask
16 Mr. Pelevic to try and remember the name of that person that he has just
17 described for us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 16341 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we see 2D1033 on
8 the screen.
9 Q. And while waiting for that: Mr. Pelevic, I believe that you
10 brought this photograph with you when you came to The Hague. Be so kind
11 as to tell me whether you can recognise the place where the photograph
12 was taken. Can you remember the occasion and the time? And who are the
13 individuals that we can see in the foreground?
14 A. Naturally. The person in the uniform is
15 Commander Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. To his left, we see
16 Mr. Goran Hadzic, the president of the Autonomous Region of Slavonia,
17 Baranja, and Western Srem at the time. And to the right, the man in the
18 black is Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, the deputy minister of defence of the
19 Republic of Serbian Krajina, the man in the black suit.
20 Q. And can you remember when this photograph was taken, and on what
21 occasion, if you know?
22 And I do apologise, we failed to ask you where this photograph
23 was taken.
24 A. The photograph was taken in the guards centre. It's the -- the
25 compound itself. It's the training centre. And the photograph was taken
1 on the occasion of the day on which the Serbian Volunteers Guard was
2 formed, on the 10th of October, 1992.
3 In the background you can see other individuals who were always
4 present on that occasion.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this photograph
6 please be admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
8 MR. WEBER: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1033 will receive number D651,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Pelevic, concerning this camp in Erdut, what was its
16 capacity? How many members did you have in the guards?
17 A. Before we arrived, the camp in Erdut was a recruit centre for the
18 Osijek Military District. So it had everything that a combat unit
19 needed. It wasn't very big. It had a capacity of about 250 beds, but
20 very often there were over 300 guards there, because they would use
21 mattresses or sleeping bags instead of beds. They had a canteen,
22 training grounds -- it had a canteen and training grounds, good
23 dormitories, there was an office, a big warehouse. So everything that a
24 large combat unit needed was there.
25 Q. Mr. Pelevic, did you take over responsibility for training the
1 recruits at any point in time; and, if so, when did you do so?
2 A. Yes. To a certain extent I did assume responsibility for
3 recruiting [as interpreted] the recruits, perhaps after two or two and a
4 half months -- after I had been in the volunteer guards for two and two
5 and a half months. I was good at martial arts, I was physically fit, I
6 knew how to prepare troops, so I assumed responsibility for physical
7 training, for training in martial arts. It was necessary to be very fit,
8 because if a military unit -- if members of a military unit aren't fit,
9 they can be very good shooters but that will serve no purpose because you
10 need to be fit.
11 Q. Mr. Pelevic, how long did the recruits' training last?
12 A. As I have already said, it lasted for three months. Only after
13 they had been trained for three months was it possible for a volunteer to
14 join the combat group and to participate in the operations.
15 Q. Were the instructors who trained the recruits just members of the
16 Serbian Volunteer Guards, or did you have instructors who came from the
17 outside too?
18 A. When Legija arrived in the guards, that was in 1992, in
19 April 1992, he was also appointed as an instructor since he had a lot of
20 military experience. He had been sergeant in the Foreign Legion for four
21 years, so he had such experience. We also had a colonel, an army
22 colonel, a colonel from the JNA, and because of his rank we called him
23 Puki, which is the abbreviation for "colonel," or "pukovnik." I don't
24 know whether he had retired or whether he was an active-duty officer, but
25 I do know that he wore a uniform that was different from the uniforms we
1 had. He wore the uniform of the Army of Yugoslavia.
2 Q. In order to be quite clear: Was he a member of the Serbian
3 Volunteer Guards, or did he only appear from the outside in order to
4 train the recruits?
5 A. No. He lived with us. He was a member of the guards. But he
6 probably kept some of his habits from the Army of Yugoslavia.
7 Q. Did you ever receive training of any kind from members of the MUP
8 of Republika Srbija or from any other MUP or from members of the state
9 security in the Republic of Serbia?
10 A. No. That would have been quite unnatural. That never occurred.
11 Q. Why do you say that that would have been abnormal?
12 A. Well, the police and the stays security, given the nature of
13 their work, are not military units, and they know nothing about warfare.
14 Why should we be trained by them with regard to how to arrest someone or
15 how to spy on someone? This is the work that is to be done by the DB or
16 the MUP. We can only have instructors from military units; that's quite
17 natural. So it wasn't necessary for us to have any such instructors from
18 the DB or the MUP. And in my opinion they had no such instructors, no
19 such experts.
20 Q. Mr. Pelevic, throughout the year 1992 did you provide training
21 from [as interpreted] recruits or did you at any point in time leave
22 Erdut; and if you did, when and for what reason?
23 A. At one point in time, I received an order from Commander Arkan.
24 I was to select four of the best volunteers, soldiers, and to go to Knin,
25 to a place called Kistanje, near Knin, where the Krka monastery had been
1 located. It had been built in the thirteenth century by the sister of
2 the Serbian tsar, Jelena. This monastery is near the border with
3 Croatia, and from the surrounding hills the Croatian soldiers would often
4 fire on the monastery. Since at the time Vladika Nikolaj was in the
5 monastery, he had to flee from Sibenik, he asked Milan Martic to provide
6 security and defend the monastery from attacks. Milan Martic referred
7 him to Arkan, since he didn't have enough forces. That's what he later
8 told me. He didn't have enough forces to provide security, and Commander
9 Arkan sent me and four other soldiers under my command to go and defend
10 the monastery, to arm the monks, to train them, to provide them physical
11 training and training in shooting. I went there towards the end of
12 March to carry out that task and I stayed there for perhaps 30 days, but
13 not for more than a month.
14 Q. When you say towards the end of March, for the sake of the
15 transcript, which year are we dealing with?
16 A. 1992.
17 Q. Mr. Pelevic, did the Serbian Volunteer Guards carry out any
18 operations during the time that you spent in the Krka monastery?
19 A. Yes. The Serbian Volunteer Guards at the beginning of
20 April participated in the liberation of Bijeljina and Zvornik. Those
21 were the two largest operations carried out by the Serbian Volunteer
23 Q. As far as I have understood, you weren't present, you didn't
24 participate in those operations. When you returned in Erdut after
25 30 days, as you say, did you hear anything about the participation of the
1 volunteer -- of the Serbian Volunteer Guards in the liberation of
2 Bijeljina and Zvornik?
3 A. Naturally I heard certain things from my colleagues and from
4 officers. And later, naturally, from Commander Arkan as well.
5 Q. Do you know how it is that the Serbian Volunteer Guards and Arkan
6 went to Bijeljina and later on to Zvornik?
7 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guards had been appealed to by
8 Ms. Biljana Plavsic on behalf of the SDS, and they had been asked to
9 prevent Muslim extremists who had already compiled a list of prominent
10 Serbs in Bijeljina -- they were asked to prevent these Muslim extremists
11 from assassinating Serbians on this list. I know about that because I
12 had the document and there was a coded call. Biljana Plavsic asked the
13 commander to act in such a way to defend these prominent individuals.
14 Q. In addition to this call that the commander received, did the
15 commander receive a call from some local official of the SDG in
16 Bijeljina; and if so, from whom?
17 A. Immediately after the call from Biljana Plavsic, there was
18 contact -- contact was established with our people in Bijeljina. And our
19 member whose nickname is Mauzer told us that it was absolutely necessary
20 for the guards to go and liberate Bijeljina.
21 Q. After your arrival there, did you find out from Arkan or from
22 someone else, did you find out whether the guards participated in the
23 liberation of Bijeljina on an independent basis, or were they provided
24 with support of some kind? And if so, with what kind of support?
25 A. The guards had two forms of support. They were supported by our
1 members led by Mauzer. I can't remember his name right now, but the
2 nickname, his nickname, is Mauzer. But the main form of support was in
3 the form of logistics, and it was provided by the army, an army garrison
4 in Bijeljina. Major Gavrilovic commanded that garrison and he later
5 became the commander of the 2nd Semberija Brigade. Our volunteers slept
6 in the barracks and that's where they would also eat for the day or two
7 that they spent there. So the army provided us with logistics support,
8 but the agreement was that the army should provide us with full combat
9 support as well. But since we co-operated very successfully with the
10 local patriots and groups, it wasn't necessary for the Army of Yugoslavia
11 to get involved in the conflict. They remained in the barracks. So in
12 one day's time Bijeljina was liberated.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if we could please have a little bit
15 more foundation. It started out with the witness not being present for
16 any of this, then went into that he subsequently heard about things, and
17 now things are coming in to the record in a conclusory fashion as if the
18 witness almost experienced these directly.
19 So if we could have please a little bit more foundation on how he
20 learned this information.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, it may be -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just going to ask
23 the witness precisely that. I was just going to ask him.
24 Q. Mr. Pelevic, it seems to me that you had a coded letter in your
25 hands. Could you please provide us with some more details? Who did you
1 receive the information from? Who told you that?
2 A. I've already told you that. My initial office originates from my
3 colleagues, volunteers, as soon as I returned from the Krka monastery
4 sometimes toward the end of April. I had been there with four of the
5 other volunteers in order to protect the monastery.
6 Later on, when I became close associate of Commander Arkan, in
7 that capacity and later on as a politician I met with Biljana Plavsic and
8 all the other relevant people from the Republika Srpska. Obviously I
9 wanted to know how things had happened, and this is what I base my very
10 reliable information on, the -- the one that I share with the
11 Honourable Chamber.
12 Q. Mr. Pelevic, did Arkan speak openly about all those details? In
13 the media, for example.
14 A. Yes, on many occasion, because that was most frequently a
15 journalist's questions during that period. Later on I became
16 Major Gavrilovic's friend. Unfortunately, he died a few months ago.
17 However, from various sources I heard what had caused our attack on
18 Bijeljina, how things evolved and what the result was, so I believe that
19 I have all the relevant information about that.
20 Q. The transport is not -- the transcript is not clear. It doesn't
21 reflect what you said about Major Gavrilovic. Could you please repeat.
22 A. When Major Gavrilovic became the commander of the 2nd Brigade, we
23 met and we became good friends, and it is only logical that I asked him
24 how things happened in Bijeljina, because there were several versions
25 about the events. And I also spoke on several occasions with Mauzer who
1 remained living in Bijeljina and established his own guard under the name
2 of Panthers. I collected all information from different sources, and I
3 was able to put together the picture of what had happened in Bijeljina.
4 It was not difficult at all.
5 Q. Mr. Pelevic, now I'm going to show you three photos. And in the
6 meantime, I would kindly ask the booths to prepare firstly the transcript
7 for 2D1008.1.
8 Before that, I would like to call up 2D1028, which is a photo
9 that we received from you, Mr. Pelevic -- Mr. Pelevic, I apologise.
10 Let me ask you, Mr. Pelevic, do you know anything about the
11 circumstances under which the Serbian Volunteer Guard and
12 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, participated in the Zvornik operation in
13 April 1992?
14 A. Again, I will have to say that I was not there. I was not one of
15 the participants. But I have information that came from different
17 During the operation in Bijeljina, the Presidency of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina sent a delegation to investigate what had happened
19 there. The delegation consisted of Biljana Plavsic, Fikret Abdic, and
20 General Prascevic on behalf of the military. According to
21 Biljana Plavsic, according to what she told me later and according what
22 her statements for the media were, the situation in Bijeljina was good.
23 No shop was looted. Wherever a shop window glass was broken,
24 Commander Arkan posted a guard there to guard such shops.
25 Commander Arkan wanted to proceed and attack Tuzla; however,
1 Vladika Vasilije Kacevenda talked him out of that. He was also present
2 there, as well as Biljana Plavsic.
3 General Prascevic claimed that the situation in Tuzla was under
4 control and no attacks could ensue from there from any of the peoples
5 residing there. So the idea was given up on, and Biljana Plavsic
6 insisted on proceeding towards Zvornik, where the Serbs came under the
7 threat of the Muslim forces that had organised themselves just like they
8 had done in Bijeljina. And that's how a decision was made to proceed
9 towards Zvornik.
10 Q. Do you know, did you hear from Arkan or anybody else, who
11 participated in the Zvornik operation?
12 A. In addition to the Serbian Volunteers Guard consisting of some
13 60 volunteers or so - because it would have been impossible for only
14 60 volunteers to take Zvornik, Zvornik is a somewhat larger town - we
15 acted in concert with the Army of Yugoslavia. And I believe that the
16 main commander was General Sava Jankovic. I know that for a fact. I
17 don't know who was the operative in charge of the operation, but I know
18 that the guards enjoyed artillery and infantry support, but the artillery
19 support was decisive in the attack to liberate Zvornik.
20 Q. Mr. Pelevic, please look at the photo 2D1028 which is before you.
21 Do you know who the photo depicts? What was the occasion when the photo
22 was taken, and when?
23 A. The photo was taken in 1995 on the anniversary of the MUP of
24 Serbia on the day of Archangel Mikajla," and the person at the roster is
25 Radovan Karadzic, the then-president of the Republika Srpska.
1 Q. Mr. Pelevic, there is an error in the transcript. What MUP
3 A. The MUP of the Republika Srpska, yes.
4 Q. And where was that?
5 A. It was in Zvornik.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And now can we look at another
7 photo, which is 2D1029.
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, can you tell us when this photo was taken and what
9 it depicts?
10 A. The photo was taken in Zvornik on the same day, on the same
11 occasion, in Zvornik. This is Commander Arkan, and the other person is
12 an official of the MUP. He was present -- Arkan was presented with a
13 gift. I don't know who the official was. But I know that this is a
14 pistol with an engraving, a dedication to Arkan as the liberator of
16 Q. You said that he received that gift from an official of what
18 A. The MUP of the Republika Srpska. It was their anniversary.
19 Q. Let's look at 2D1026.
20 Could you please identify the event. Tell us whether the photo
21 depicts the same event. And can you please identify the four
22 individuals, starting from the right-hand side of the photo towards the
24 A. The first one on the right --
25 Q. First --
1 A. The event is the same, 1995, the anniversary of the MUP of
2 Republika Srpska. The first person on the right is the minister of the
3 police of the Republika Srpska, Mr. Tomislav Kovac. Second is
4 Radovan Karadzic, the president of the Republika Srpska. The
5 first [as interpreted] individual is Vladika Vasilije Kacevenda. And the
6 fourth person is Commander Arkan.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the three
9 exhibits, 2D1028, 2D1029, and 2D1026, be tendered into evidence in this
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, with respect to the present photo, I see
12 the witness has identified through to Zeljko Raznjatovic but did not --
13 we do not know whether or not he also recognises the other individuals
14 along sitting in that row.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You could ask him later on.
16 MR. WEBER: Yes, of course. With that being said, also we do not
17 how this witness has personal knowledge of this event. Did he attend, is
18 this something that he saw on TV, or whatnot? Provided that there's
19 personal knowledge established by this witness, no objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the numbers would be ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1028 will receive number D652.
22 Document 2D1029 will receive number D653.
23 And document 2D1026 whether receive number D654, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in view to them being very much related,
25 Madam Registrar, is there any specific reason why we would have them
1 under three numbers rather than as three photographs from the
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, they are uploaded as separated
4 documents. I cannot merge them without --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether that's logic or not, I leave that
7 But D652 up to and including D654 are admitted into evidence.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, we
9 received several photos and we made a selection. We did not want to
10 encumber the file with too many of them.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Things are as they are.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Pelevic, please be so kind and tell us where us got the
15 photos from. Were you present at the event? How do you know about the
17 JUDGE ORIE: What we know, until now, is that photographs with a
18 rather clearer explanation on a screen, what it was about, that it was
19 the MUP, the year is there. The witness wasn't there. He recognises the
20 persons. I would have been able to recognise most of them as well, I
21 think, on the basis of the existing evidence.
22 What now is the line of questioning? What are you going to
23 further establish, I wonder, Mr. Bakrac? "How do you know about the
24 event?" Is there is any dispute about the event taking place in view
25 of ... and what is the major relevance to know -- I see -- I take it the
1 point is that Arkan is seen in the presence of Republika Srpska
2 officials, Mr. Karadzic. He even got a present. That is, I take it, the
3 purpose of all of this is, to link Mr. Arkan to Republika Srpska, as
4 often in the Defence strategy it seems that linking Arkan to the JNA,
5 linking Arkan to the Republika Srpska MUP, is apparently something you
6 want to establish.
7 Now, what will -- the questions how the witness is aware of this,
8 if -- I don't know there's much dispute about it, but I'm really asking
9 myself where are we going to end, and is it of such importance that we
10 should pay a lot of attention to it.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Weber reacted and
12 suggested that we should establish how he knows about the photos is what
13 prompted me.
14 And second of all, we had a protected witness in this courtroom
15 who testified that in 1995 Arkan was not very welcome in the territory of
16 Republika Srpska, that -- that he had been chased away, as it were.
17 Now we are trying to establish what Arkan's relationship was with
18 the Republika Srpska officials, and we're trying to challenge some of the
19 allegations presented by the witnesses in this courtroom.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's clear. I think that you can see in the
21 photographs that it was -- apparently this meeting was held in Zvornik,
22 if I'm not mistaken. And if I remember well, 1995 appears there as the
24 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, we're having a longer discussion than
25 what I intended. The reason was, the contents of the photos is not why I
1 said something about the personal knowledge and foundation, it was that
2 he was offering details beyond what the photos were. So if it was just a
3 matter of the content of the photos, as Your Honours have noticed, that
4 would not been -- that would not have initiated the comment that I made
5 in terms of the personal knowledge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 Keep all this in the back of your mind, Mr. Bakrac, and then
8 please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I'm
10 looking at the clock. I believe that we are already on the break time,
11 and maybe this would be a convenient moment, because after the break I
12 have some other video-clips to show.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We are. And we'll resume at 12.30.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move into private session for a second.
17 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Mr. Bakrac, I was informed by the Registry that the video,
19 without sound, you wanted to tender still has not been received by the
20 Registry in such a form that it can be processed. And that's the only
21 reason why I have not yet assigned not even a provisional number to it.
22 You should take care that it is received by the Registrar in such a way
23 that it can be processed in the system.
24 Then, Mr. Bakrac --
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I've understood, Your Honour. Thank
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you are ready, you may proceed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Pelevic, we were speaking about a certain subject matter. I
5 would now like to conclude.
6 Tell me, before -- after you returned from Krka, and after the
7 operations in Bijeljina and Zvornik, did any officials from
8 Republika Srpska visit your camp in Erdut?
9 A. Yes. In May, I believe, Ms. Biljana Plavsic went to Erdut,
10 together with Princess Linda Karadjordjevic.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now have a
12 look at 2D1020. Could we have that document up on the screen. It's a
13 photograph that we received from the witness.
14 Could you please zoom in a little bit.
15 Q. Going from left to right, could you tell us who is sitting in
16 this room? And could you tell us when and where this photograph was
18 A. This photograph was taken a little time after the operation in
19 Bijeljina and Zvornik. I think it was in May, but I'm not certain. It
20 was taken in the headquarters of the Serbian Volunteer Guards in Erdut,
21 and it was taken in Commander Arkan's office.
22 I can't recognise the first gentleman to the left.
23 Ms. Biljana Plavsic is sitting next to him.
24 Princess Linda Karadjordjevic, who is the wife of
25 Prince Tomislav Karadjordjevic, is sitting next to Ms. Plavsic. The
1 gentleman to her left is someone I can't recognise, and the person in
2 uniform is Commander Arkan. The gentleman with the beard, to the extreme
3 right, is someone I can recognise but I can't remember his name. I know
4 it's a politician from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, but I do not
5 know exactly what his name is.
6 Q. Were you present on the occasion of this visit?
7 A. I was the person who took the photograph with the authorisation
8 of the guards' commander.
9 Q. On that occasion were any previous operations were discussed;
10 and, if so, which ones?
11 A. I don't know. Because at the time I was just a junior officer
12 and I could not attend the meeting. And, therefore, I do not know what
13 was discussed at the meeting.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could this photograph,
16 2D1020, please be admitted into evidence.
17 MR. WEBER: No objection.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1020 will receive number D655,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Pelevic, upon returning from Krajina, from the Krka
1 monastery, you said you returned to Erdut and that this was towards the
2 end of April 1992.
3 Tell us, very briefly, what you continued to do and where you
4 stayed until the end of 1992.
5 A. I continued to train the guards. On the whole, I was involved in
6 my own activities. I was in an office, I had premises there. In the
7 meantime, I was conferred the rank officer and I had my own room. In the
8 morning I trained the Serbian Volunteer Guards. I trained them to be
9 physically fit. I trained them in the martial arts. And in the
10 afternoon I trained the troops how to use Zoljas, hand-held
12 Q. Mr. Pelevic, at some point in time did you cease to provide
13 training for the volunteers; and if that was the case, what was the
14 reason? And when did you cease providing such training?
15 A. Since I was noticed as an officer by Commander Arkan, in the
16 meantime I was promoted. And as a co-driver, he wanted me to be with him
17 all the time when he was in the jeep. He didn't have a driver and he
18 drove himself, so I would sit by his side. Sometime in November, when we
19 had a brief break and were in Belgrade, he called me to his office, at
20 his exchange office that he in the centre of Belgrade, and he showed me a
21 list with about 20.000 signatures of the citizens of Serbian nationality,
22 citizens from Kosovo and Metohija, and these citizens had asked him to
23 present himself as a candidate, as a national deputy from Kosovo and
24 Metohija. He asked me what I thought about that. I tried to dissuade
25 him. I said it wasn't difficult to be a national representative, a
1 member of parliament. I said that it was a far greater honour to be a
2 commander within the Serbian Volunteer Guards.
3 Since I didn't have any interest in politics up until then, I
4 wanted to persuade him not to get involved in politics. He said that he
5 had already taken his decision and that he wanted me to be the second
6 person on his list when presenting himself for that position. I refused
7 to comply with the request. I said I was an economist and that I was not
8 interested in politics. He was angry, but he had a -- a special
9 relationship with me, and he would never raise his voice, nor would he do
10 anything that I would hold against him. I left.
11 On the following day, the secretary called me, his secretary
12 Snezana Kalinic called me. She asked for my identity card so that she
13 could register me on the -- in the files of the Serbian Volunteer Guards.
14 I provided my identity card to the courier who came to my house, and
15 15 days later my name appeared in the newspapers in the mid-section and I
16 was the second person on the list of the group of citizens that
17 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, the group of citizens from Kosovo and
18 Metohija --
19 Q. I do apologise for interrupting you, Mr. Pelevic. We have a
20 limited amount of time. I would like to confine myself to what we are
21 interested in, in the courtroom. I do have to interrupt you in order to
22 focus on what we are interested in.
23 As far as I have understood, you became a candidate for the group
24 of citizens led by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and you were the second
25 person on his list. What did you do up until that point in time? How
1 long did that campaign take?
2 A. For the sake of continuity, I will briefly say that I was angry
3 when I read this in the newspaper, but later he persuaded me that this
4 was for the best. I accepted that as a fact.
5 We started our campaign in the towns of Kosovo and Metohija. I
6 was practically in charge of the campaign. And we did very well in the
7 elections. We received a lot of votes and obtained five seats in the
8 parliament of Serbia.
9 Q. Be so kind as to tell me who financed that campaign.
10 A. It wasn't an expensive campaign, since only a few towns were
11 concerned. There were meetings that were held in sports halls. Usually
12 these halls would be provided to us by the directors for free.
13 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, financed all the expenses incurred by the
14 campaign, but the expenses were not that significant.
15 Q. I do apologise. I was waiting for the interpretation to avoid
16 overlapping speakers.
17 When were the elections held? And out of those -- amongst those
18 five members of parliament, were you one of them?
19 A. I think the elections were concluded in December 1992. I became
20 a member of parliament. Since we had five seats, we could have our own
21 group. Mr. Raznjatovic was the president of the parliamentary group, and
22 I was his deputy.
23 Q. Before we move on, Mr. Pelevic, we were speaking about the
24 financing of the campaign. Could you briefly explain the following for
25 me: How did the Serbian Volunteer Guards finance itself?
1 A. Well, as far as supplies were concerned, we would receive
2 everything from the TO for free and also from companies in Slavonia,
3 Baranja, and Western Srem. There were factories and companies that
4 provided supplies for us. But there were also companies, some companies,
5 from Vojvodina, from Serbia, that were in the vicinity of the border of
6 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, so that wasn't a problem. I've
7 already told you how we obtained weapons and ammunition.
8 So these were the financial sources for the Serbian Volunteer
10 Q. Did members of the Serbian Volunteer Guard receive salaries?
11 A. No, they didn't, with the exception of a few officials who worked
12 in Belgrade, who worked in the recruitment office in Belgrade.
13 Q. We'll return to that issue later on.
14 So, in December you became a member of parliament in the Assembly
15 of Serbia.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we now please see
17 the following video-clip: 2D1001.1. It's a 65 ter document, V000-0268,
18 it's a Prosecution number. The Prosecution has already shown a part of
19 the speech given by Mr. Raznjatovic. The speech lasts five minutes. I
20 want to see the end of the speech, too, because I have a few questions
21 about that.
22 The Prosecution has already shown this speech about uniting
23 Serbian territories, so I would like to have a look at the entire
24 video-clip, which will take five minutes, and then I will have a few
25 questions for the witness.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "How do Serbs greet each other?
3 Americans have their American dream, the French have a French dream, the
4 Italians have an Italian dream. We, the Serbs, also have the right to
5 dream. So do I. I have my own dream and you have your own Serbian
6 dream, and that relates to the united Serbian territory.
7 "You have seen that Germany has united, although it inflicted an
8 incredible evil of the population of the entire world and on us Serbs in
9 particular. They united. No one objected to that. So why do they
10 object to us uniting in one -- within one state? Because we are one
11 people, we speak one language, and we have the right to the united states
12 of Serbia.
13 "I returned from Kosovo this morning. Last night I was in
14 Djakovica where I had a promotion in front of 1.200 Serbs. Those were
15 all the Serbs who remained in Djakovica and they gathered in that hall.
16 Half of the hall was crying when I gave my speech because those people
17 down there have no hope. Albanian mercenaries cross the border there and
18 loot and rape Serbian women, and the police force there is unable to
19 protect them. So they are seeking the protection of the Serbian
21 "In the Serbian Republic of Krajina, you know where Jovanovac is,
22 Ustasha forces are amassing there. There are Leopard armoured tank
23 units, but they can't cross the border there because of the special
24 police units in Krajina but also because of the Serbian Tigers who won't
25 allow the perpetration of another genocide against the Serbian people.
1 The children should sleep peacefully. The working people should continue
2 to work, because we are watching over them and we will be the first to
3 intervene and close the gaps should the enemy make a move from any
4 direction. We won't allow the Ustasha and fascist monsters to swallow
5 our children again, to devour our children again. In Bosnia we prevented
6 there being a border on the Drina river. The force of the Jihad had
7 already occupied Bijeljina. Everything was already in their hands when
8 we arrived and got rid of the Jihad. We are afraid of no one.
9 "The only thing we fear is a lack of unity among the Serbs. For
10 this reason, my brothers, I want to appeal to Serbian unity at this
11 honourable and honest gathering. Let's not tarnish our image. We don't
12 need that. We know that among the Serbs there have always been people,
13 but there have been others who didn't deserve such a name. But we know
14 how to deal with such animals. That might be harsh on my part. Perhaps
15 I'm not yet politically correct, and I do apologise, I am not yet a
16 member of the parliament. But I do have to tell you one thing. And that
17 is that there can be no mention of trade with Serbian lands or Serbian
18 people. I'm saying this here and now.
19 "Nobody can play games with the Serbian 'inteligencija,' with
20 Serbian intelligence, no one can offer you thousands of German marks.
21 Where does that money come from? Let me tell you. They wish to sell
22 Kosovo. They wish to sell the Krajinas. Well, we won't allow it. We
23 won't give them Krajina or Kosovo.
24 "Kosovo and the Krajinas and all the Serbian lands are sacred,
25 because our churches are located there. Our homesteads are there, our
1 graves are there, and we won't give up a single inch of that territory.
2 "The politicians can remain involved in politics, but they need
3 to know that we will not be trading with Serbian lands or Serbian people.
4 The Serbian people will not allow it. They have to know that. So I
5 greet you from this stand, here today, my brothers.
6 "Thank you very much."
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Pelevic, this was a somewhat longer clip, but I wanted to
9 hear the entire speech.
10 We heard Mr. Raznjatovic mentioning a discord among the Serbs.
11 At one point he said they want to sell Serbian Krajinas and the Serbian
12 Kosovo. Can you tell us, if you know, since you participated in the
13 campaign, who did Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, refer to when he has says --
14 he said "they want to sell the Serbian Krajinas"?
15 A. It is very clear that he meant the politicians in power, because
16 there was nobody else who was in a position to trade in Serbian Krajinas
17 and Serbian Kosovo and Metohija but the powers that be. It was a direct
18 attack on Slobodan Milosevic and his policies.
19 Q. Did the then-official politicians and institution support Arkan's
20 public efforts in the sense of uniting all Serbian lands?
21 A. No. The powers that be did not want the unification of all Serb
22 lands. As Mr. Raznjatovic said, we dreamt about that. We had the right
23 to dream. But it was only a dream. And later on it turned out that he
24 was right when it came to the sale of Krajina, and with that I mean the
25 Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. The -- and the -- today's
1 power is doing the same thing with Kosovo.
2 Q. Mr. Pelevic, can you please tell us about the gathering that we
3 saw. When did that take place? Who was present? Were you there?
4 A. That gathering was part of the election campaign. It was at the
5 Sava conference hall, possibly November, perhaps December; it doesn't
6 really matter. I was there as the only one representing our party, and
7 both him and I spoke at that rally.
8 Q. You said November or December. What year? And what was the
9 official title of that rally? Were there any other officials there? Was
10 there anybody there from any of the Serbian Krajinas? And if that was
11 the case, who were they?
12 A. I said that it was either in November or December, I'm not sure,
13 but it was 20 years ago, and you really can't expect me to remember
14 everything really precisely. That was at the Sava centre conference
15 hall. It was a Serbian rally of sorts. Officials came from the
16 Republika Srpska, from the republic of --
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... could I stop you
18 there. The first question was: "What year?"
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] November or December 1992.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You said that officials came from the Republika Srpska, and you
24 wanted to continue.
25 A. Yes. The Republic of Serbian Krajina, Montenegro, and Serbia.
1 Q. Can you remember who represented the Republika Srpska, who
2 represented the Republic of Serbian Krajina, perhaps?
3 A. I really can't remember any of the names.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic.
5 When you became an MP, were you in coalition with Milosevic's
6 party, or were you a member of the opposition?
7 A. After Zeljko Raznjatovic's speak [as interpreted] at that Serbian
8 rally, all we could expect were attacks from the government. We could
9 not expect them to invite us to form a coalition. In the parliament we
10 were opposition to the Socialist Party of Serbia headed by
11 Slobodan Milosevic.
12 Q. Did you enjoy support from the Republika Srpska and the
13 Republic of Serbian Krajina? And if there was support, what kind of
14 support was that?
15 A. This was just a campaign. We still didn't know whether we would
16 make it to the parliament when we did. We established very good
17 political connections with the officials of both the Republika Srpska and
18 the Republic of Serbian Krajina. Not because they respected our
19 political work, we were novices in that, but they respected our fight for
20 the liberation of the Serbian territories in both Republika Srpska and
21 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and that's what we based our good
22 relationship with the then-politicians of those two regions.
23 Q. Mr. Pelevic, you started engaging in politics when you became an
24 MP. Was there another mobilisation drive of the Serbian Volunteer
25 Guards? And if that was the case, when and where?
1 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guards were never disbanded. However, the
2 two of us started dedicating our time to political world. Towards the
3 end of January, the Croatian forces started attacking Maslenica and
4 numerous crimes were committed against innocent population.
5 Unfortunately, this was happening in front of the peacekeeping forces of
6 the United Nations.
7 And then we departed for Erdut. Commander Arkan and myself went
8 to Erdut. We put on our uniforms once again and joined the Serbian
9 Volunteer Guard on a campaign towards the Knin-Krajina.
10 Q. Mr. Pelevic, when you were supposed to cross the border from
11 Erdut, you said that you joined the guards. I suppose that you're
12 talking about a large number of people. How did you organise that? How
13 did you do that? How did you go about doing that?
14 A. From before, there was agreement in place between Commander Arkan
15 and minister of defence of the Army of the Republic of Serbia,
16 Mr. Tomislav Simovic, according to which we were allowed to use military
17 trucks and according to which we would not be crossing the border at the
18 official border crossing, but, rather, that we would use some military
19 routes. That's how we crossed the border from Slavonia, Baranja, and
20 Western Srem onto the territory of the Republika Srpska and into the
21 Knin-Krajina. It would have not been possible any other way.
22 Q. Mr. Pelevic, I would like us to --
23 JUDGE ORIE: When you said, Mr. Pelevic, "towards the end of
24 January," may I take it that you were referring to January 1993?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 I would like to call up 2D1036.
5 Q. Mr. Pelevic, while we're waiting for the document, let me tell
6 you that this seems to be an intercept that the Croatian side intercepted
7 on the 4th of May, 1995.
8 You say that with a large number of soldiers you left Erdut to go
9 to the Knin-Krajina. I would be interested whether the principle that we
10 see here functioned even before this time.
11 We can look at the document where we can see that around
12 2210 hours Major Vrudin [phoen], commander of the 35th Brigade, who, on
13 the meeting with General Loncar, ordered to Captain Cedo Jovic, chief of
14 the security of the 35th Brigade, to close all the border crossings at
15 the 24 hours on the 4th of May, 2005, between the so-called SRY and the
16 so-called RSK and that he could only allow the passage of one Arkan's
17 unit of an unknown strength which had already been announced to us
19 Your Honour, can I see Mr. Weber on his feet.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
21 MR. WEBER: There's an objection to the characterisation of this
22 document that's been posed to the witness.
23 It's the Prosecutor's understanding that these documents are
24 summaries that were provided by the Croatian government of intercepts
25 that are in their possession, so it doesn't reflect the actual content of
1 the --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know whether it reflects the actual
3 content. It is a summary which is either accurate or inaccurate, but it
4 certainly does not reflect all the words spoken by the interlocutors.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm just providing to the Chamber the
6 information that we have.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to check
9 with the witness whether this procedure or a similar procedure was well
10 established when the Serbian Volunteer Guard had to move from Erdut to go
11 to a theatre of war. 2D1035 is proof that the intercept was provided by
12 the Croatian authorities to the OTP pursuant to a Request for Assistance.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Why not ask a question to the witness, Mr. Bakrac?
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honours --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, whatever -- this apparently is a
16 contemporaneous document provided by the Croatians, at least it's
17 presented as such. Is there any problem in using it? Apart from that it
18 is a summary of what apparently was either intercepted -- what was
19 intercepted most likely.
20 MR. WEBER: Yes, we do object to it. This is a form of leading.
21 This information as for what Mr. Bakrac has said it was used for could
22 have been lead without even the use of a document.
23 Secondly, Mr. Bakrac said that the Croatian authorities provided
24 the OTP, pursuant to a Request for Assistance, the intercept. We do not
25 have that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we have various matters.
2 First, Mr. Bakrac, Mr. Weber says that you should have tried to
3 elicit this, the answers from the witness, without first showing him what
4 was said during this intercept. And I think that would be in accordance
5 with -- with the instructions, certainly if it is a witness have you
6 called yourself.
7 The other questions, the other issues raised; one is that you did
8 not adequately present the document, and third, that the Prosecution has
9 no access to the original transcript.
10 Would that make this document inadmissible under all
12 MR. WEBER: In the context that it's being offered today, we
13 would object. I mean, that's not to say that further investigations
14 couldn't be done and such information couldn't be admissible in other
15 forms, but the way it's being used today with this witness, yes, we would
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first hear the answers of the witness.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may be allowed, I
19 did not even mean to tender it through this witness. I simply want --
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... earlier I said:
21 "Why not ask a question to the witness." Let's do that.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, sir, before we looked at the document, I asked you how
24 you crossed, and you told us that there was an agreement between Simovic
25 and Arkan about military trucks and so on and so forth. And you said
1 that you crossed the border somewhere else and not across the official
3 What I've just read out, does it reflect the way the Serbian
4 Volunteer Guards crossed the border to go from Erdut to other theatres of
6 A. There was an agreement in principle between Arkan and the
7 minister of defence of Serbia according to which we crossed in this way.
8 However, the implementation of this agreement was in the hands of the
9 authorised organs of the Army of Republic of Serbian Krajina and the
10 Army of Yugoslavia. And this was precisely in order to avoid police
11 checks, because our people could not travel through the Republic of
12 Serbia or they could not cross where there were police checks. That's
13 why we wanted to avoid police controls. We used military routes while
14 all the other crossings were closed so that we could pass.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic.
16 When you arrived in the Knin-Krajina in January 1993, where were
17 you billeted? Did you participate in any of the operations there?
18 A. We were billeted in Benkovac, in Aseria [phoen] hotel, which had
19 been completely empty. There was no food to be had. We had problem with
20 food -- food supplies. We participated in some operations around
21 Benkovac, on the Paljuv plateau, where there are several Serbian villages
22 that had been plundered and torched. Islam Grcki and Islam Latinski and
23 some other villages where the population had suffered terribly, and there
24 is UN documentation to prove that. Later on there was struggle to
25 liberate Maslenica and the Serbian volunteers actively participated in
1 that fighting.
2 Q. When you say that the Serbian Volunteer Guards actively
3 participated in those military operations, could you please tell us,
4 Under whose command did the Serbian volunteers operate at the time?
5 A. Since the Serbian Volunteer Guards from the very outset was under
6 the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and then
7 when the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was established, it
8 became part of that Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. It was only
9 all normal for them to be under the command of the commander of the
10 Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that was Mile Novakovic, and we
11 did that when we fought in the Knin and Benkovac theatre of war.
12 Q. You said that from the very outset you were under the command of
13 the TEO [as interpreted] and that later on at the beginning of 1993 you
14 were members of the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. In the
15 meantime between 1991 and 1993, January 1993, were there any changes with
16 regard to your affiliation? And if such changes did take place, when was
18 A. Yes. There was a change in 1992 after the adoption of
19 Cyrus Vance's peace plan according to which both warring parties should
20 be without militaries. Pursuant to an order that we received from the
21 Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, we were transformed into the
22 police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and we operated in that way up
23 to the attack on Maslenica in late January 1993.
24 Q. When we're talking about these operations around Maslenica in
25 January 1993, you said you were under the command of Mile Novakovic. In
1 addition to your forces, were there any other forces from the MUP of the
2 Republic of Serbia or the DB of the Republic of Serbia?
3 A. No. There were only Wolves from Vucjak from the Republika Srpska
4 under the command of the late Veljko Milankovic and some other units from
5 the Army of Republika Srpska with us. But the bulk of the forces were
6 from the Republic of Serbian Krajina, including the Serbian Volunteer
7 Guards, as its integral element.
8 Q. Were you wounded at that time? And if that was the case, could
9 you please describe what happened? How were you wounded and what
10 happened next.
11 A. According to a plan that was drafted by the command, the Army of
12 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, the Serbian Volunteer Guards were
13 designated to pave the road across Velebit and come to Srebrenica. On
14 our flank were several units from the Republika Srpska and the Army of
15 the Republic of Serbian Krajina. I was the commander of that company
16 that launched a frontal attack. After two attacks, I was wounded by a --
17 a bullet that was -- that is banned by the Geneva Conventions. I was
18 wounded in the shoulder.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, if I could just take you and perhaps the
20 witness back a tinny little bit.
21 You read the content of the summary of the intercept. You read,
22 at least that is how it's reflected in the transcript, that all the
23 border crossings would be closed between the so-called, as it reads in
24 our transcript, "SFRY," and the so-called RSK.
25 Now, the original, at least the translation, also, I think, in
1 B/C/S says "SRJ," which is not the same as the SFRY.
2 First of all, could you perhaps read "SRJ" but then not using the
3 acronym. SRJ stands for ...
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise if I
5 made a mistake when reading it out. The original says the Federal
6 Republic of Yugoslavia, and then we have an acronym, and the so-called
7 Republic of Serbian Krajina.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But SRJ, if it's not the federal republic, is
9 it the -- what is it, that, in full? The so-called SRJ stands for ...
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time in 1995,
11 and somewhat earlier, when the republics of Slavonia, Croatia, Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina were recognised, as well as the republic of Macedonia, Serbia
13 and Montenegro remained, and these two entities were called the
14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and it consisted of the Republic of
15 Serbia and the Republic of Montenegro.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That brings me exactly to my point where I'm totally
17 confused about the evidence given by this witness.
18 The witness explained to us, and please listen carefully, that
19 the -- you explained that you came from Belgrade, went to Erdut. From
20 Erdut you had to finally reach the Republic of Serbian Krajina. May I
21 take it that that was the Republic of Serbia Krajina which was on --
22 well, let's say, on Croatian territory, or at least what used to be
23 Croatia. Is that correct?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was the Republic of Serbian
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the Republic of Serbia Krajina, but
2 correct me when I'm wrong, was partly found in what used to be Croatian
3 territory. That is, Serbian Krajina, Knin area, that area. Are you
4 referring to that, or are you referring to any other part of the
5 Republic of Serbia Krajina. You are referring to the Knin area?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So you explained to us that there was a special
8 arrangement with the -- for crossing borders with the ... and that was a
9 agreement between Commander Arkan and the minister of defence of the army
10 of the Republic of Serbia.
11 You also explained that you would take a route through
12 Republika Srpska and then go to the Republika Srpska Krajina. Would that
13 mean crossing the border from Erdut first into Republika Srpska and then
14 into the Republic of Serbian Krajina? Is that ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
16 We had to travel for a brief period through the republic -- the
17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And this agreement concerned that
18 stretch, and not the trip from Republika Srpska to the Republic of
19 Serbian Krajina, which was never a problem.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now the document you've shown to the
21 witness is about border crossings between the Socialist Republic of
22 Yugoslavia and the so-called Republic of Serb Krajina. Which border are
23 we now -- who is moving from where to where exactly? And what --
24 [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I know
1 what the situation was like, and if I may interpret what the witness has
2 just said, because of the front line -- well, I do apologise. To avoid
3 any mistakes, I'll ask the witness.
4 Q. Was it possible to go from Erdut to the Republic of
5 Serbian Krajina to Knin without passing through the Federal Republic of
6 Yugoslavia, or, rather, through Serbia, through part of that federal
8 A. No, it wasn't possible because it would have required passing
9 through Croatian territory, which is where the Croatian forces were
10 present, and that was impossible.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that that agreement was to go
12 from Erdut back into Serbia and then from Serbia into the
13 Republika Srpska and from the Republika Srpska into the Republika Srpska
15 That is what that agreement is about, isn't it? Well, at least
16 the first stretch -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour. Going from
18 Erdut to Serbia and then Serbia to Republika Srpska was the problem. But
19 the witness said that it wasn't a problem to go from Republika Srpska to
20 the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And now, the document shown related to the telephone
22 intercept is crossings between the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia and
23 the so-called Republika Srpska Krajina.
24 Now, from what I understood is that from Erdut you'd go to the
25 Republic of Serbia, then you would cross the border with the
1 Republika Srpska, and from the Republika Srpska, then to Republika Srpska
3 So I'm wondering where do I find border crossings between the SRJ
4 and the RSK? Where do I find them? Because I understand that it was
5 Erdut, crossing the border to Serbia, from Serbia to Republika Srpska,
6 from Republika Srpska to the Republika of Srpska Krajina.
7 So I'm -- I have border crossings between two states which are
8 not neighbouring each other. SRJ and the RSK. In between there is the
9 Republika Srpska. So I'm asking myself how to understand this document
10 at all. I'm just trying to understand the geography, and that's the
11 reason why I -- although I had -- of course, I -- I expected that where
12 you -- you misread or it was missed -- where it was not accurately put on
13 the transcript, the SRJ, because I wanted that to be clarified first
14 before I could put this question to you.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the northern part of
16 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that northern part which shares a
17 border with the Republic of Serbian Krajina, is Serbia. To the south we
18 have Montenegro, which didn't share a border with the Republic of
19 Serbian Krajina. And then these crossings were crossings between the
20 Republic of Serbian Krajina and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but
21 it was in the territory of Serbia. As far as I have understood the
22 witness's testimony, they weren't border crossings but military
23 crossings. These were military routes that they used, but they passed
24 through the territory of Serbia to a certain extent. And the territory
25 of Serbia was an integral part of the state that was known as the
1 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So when you say in the northern part there is a
3 border between the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia, it being Serbia
4 there, and the Serbian Krajina, you are referring to, could I say, the
5 eastern part of the Republika Srpska Krajina?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the eastern part.
7 And the west and part of Serbia or, rather, of the SRJ.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What you are actually -- what, then, the evidence
9 is, and now I think I understand it better, that moving from the eastern
10 part, Western Slavonia, Srem, that area, to the other part of the
11 Republika Srpska Krajina, you would have to cross through Croatian-held
12 territory, and that was the reason why from the Republika Srpska Krajina,
13 although the eastern part, you would move to Serbia, then to the Republic
14 of -- Republika Srpska, and then -- so -- and then finally to the western
15 part of the Republika Srpska Krajina.
16 So when we are looking this document, it is the border crossing
17 between Serbia proper and the eastern part of the social republic -- of
18 the Serbian Republic Krajina -- Republika Srpska Krajina, I'm sorry.
19 What confused me, of course, is that often we are referring to
20 "We go to Erdut," but Erdut was Republika Srpska Krajina but only the
21 eastern part. So to say to go from Erdut and reach the Republika Srpska
22 Krajina is, to that extent, nonsense, that it is already part of the
23 Republika Srpska Krajina, although we are talking about going to another
24 sector or another part of the Republika Srpska Krajina.
25 I think it's now all perfectly clear to me.
1 But could we please -- if we use those words, "we go to Erdut" or
2 "we go to the -- from Erdut to the RSK," is, of course, if Erdut is
3 already part of the RSK, what the exact wording should have been is: "We
4 go from Erdut to the western part of the Republika Srpska Krajina and in
5 order to reach that western part, we would have to go through Serbia,
6 Republika Srpska, and then cross that border."
7 The language used is not consistent. And I would -- in order not
8 to be confused, apart from small inaccuracies in the transcript, again, I
9 do not know what you read. I think, as a matter of fact, that you did
10 read "SRJ," but I leave that alone.
11 It's now perfectly clear to me again. And could we always, if we
12 are referring to places, then we are referring to places. If we are
13 referring to geographical entities, that we give them the proper name.
14 That is, in this case, going to Republika Srpska Krajina, to the western
15 part of that.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
18 understand, and I will make an effort to put precise questions so that we
19 don't get confused about these stretches of territory.
20 Q. Mr. Pelevic, very briefly. You said you were seriously wounded
21 in the battle-field. Where were you transported to and how long were you
22 treated for?
23 A. From the top of Velebit I was taken to Mali Alan. There was an
24 HQ there. And then I was taken to the hospital in Gracac, they couldn't
25 intervene there. And then I was taken to the Sveti Save hospital in
1 Knin, from Knin by helicopter to Banja Luka, and from Banja Luka after
2 two days I was transported in an ambulance to the VM -- the military
3 medical academy in Belgrade, since there were no flights between
4 Republika Srpska and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a result of an
5 order issued by the UN.
6 Q. Why were you transported to the VMU -- VMA in Belgrade in order
7 to be treated there, the military and medical academy?
8 A. That was agreement between Arkan and the minister of defence of
9 the Army of Yugoslavia. The agreement was that our wounded should be
10 taken to the VMA where they would be treated. Or sometimes, because the
11 VMA didn't have the capacity, some soldiers would be taken elsewhere.
12 But most of the soldiers, and that included myself, were provided with
13 treatment at the military and medical academy, the VMA.
14 Q. Did members of the SDG -- were the welfare certificates taken to
15 the MUP in Serbia in order to be checked? Did you have any such
17 A. I don't understand the question.
18 Q. Did the Serbian MUP or DB ever certify the welfare certificates
19 of your soldiers in order to provide them with treatment?
20 A. No. Why? That was not necessary.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pelevic.
22 Mr. Pelevic, when your treatment had been completed, where did
23 you return to and what did you do after you returned there?
24 A. My treatment still hasn't been completed, but three months later
25 I was already capable of continuing to work. I returned to the Serbian
1 parliament as a national member of parliament, of course.
2 Q. And throughout the year 1993 you were involved in politics in
3 parliament; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Towards the end of 1993 were new elections held? And if that was
6 the case, did you participate in them? And in what capacity?
7 A. Yes. President Milosevic called an election that was held, I
8 believe, towards the end of the year. In December 1993, I believe. We
9 participated in the election. We first founded a political party called
10 the Party for Serbian Unity, and this was done in accordance with what
11 the president of the party, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, stated in a
12 video-clip. We continue to be involved in policies and as a party we
13 participated in those parliamentary elections. These were preliminary
14 parliamentary elections.
15 Q. Could you tell us at that time towards the end of 1993 what
16 results did you obtain at the elections? Did you manage to enter
18 A. No. Unfortunately, that was not the case, and we believe that we
19 were the subject of deception at those elections. The votes had been
20 stolen from us.
21 Q. Did you reach the threshold at all that was necessary to enter
23 A. No. Because the leading party didn't want the
24 Party of Serbian Unity to enter parliament. There are indications that
25 many of our votes had been stolen at those elections by the leading party
1 that was led by Slobodan Milosevic.
2 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you and Mr. Raznjatovic talk about
3 being close to the MUP, the DB? And if had you been close to them, would
4 you have passed threshold? Did you ever talk about that?
5 A. No, not in that way. But we realized that we were in the way of
6 the ruling party and Slobodan Milosevic and that's why we didn't make it
7 to the parliament. If we teamed up with his party, if we subscribed to
8 his policies, we would have certainly made it to the parliament. Not
9 only that, we would have probably won many more votes than we did during
10 the first elections.
11 Q. During the pre-election campaigns in 1993, did Arkan talk to
12 Badza? Was he in contact with Badza? What was their relationship? What
13 kind of contacts did they have?
14 A. His connections with Badza were still friendly but Badza was
15 never involved in politics. So whatever conversations they had, they
16 were not political conversations they were not -- they didn't deal with
17 the campaign. Those were military conversations dealing with the status
18 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. That was all.
19 Q. Having lost in the elections in December 1993, having not made it
20 to the parliament, in early 1994 did you participate in any war
21 activities? Were there any such activities at all?
22 A. You're talking about the beginning of that year? No. There were
23 no important war activities at the time. We continued pursuing our
24 political work. We were determined to improve our political rating.
25 However, at the rallies that we held all over Serbia, we realized that
1 our popularity was already very strong and we were even more deeply
2 concerned after that that we had lost in the elections unjustly, because
3 the votes had been stolen from us.
4 Q. Mr. Pelevic, the territorial centre in Erdut, did it continue to
5 operate in 1994? And if that was the case, until when did it operate?
6 A. It continued to operate in the beginning of that year up to the
7 end of March or the beginning of April. And then we were moved from
9 The guards had not been disbanded as such, but they were all on a
10 long furlough. However, each guard member was obliged to respond to the
11 commander's call.
12 Q. When you say that the guard members were on a long furlough, can
13 you tell us when was that? From when to when?
14 A. The guards became passive. The whole organisation became
15 passive. And that passivity lasted for a few months.
16 Q. My colleague is signalling to me that something is not clear in
17 the transcript. Let's finish with that. We have two more minutes.
18 If I understood you properly, the camp in Erdut remained open
19 sometime until the end of March and the beginning of April 1994; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then you said that the organisation became passive and the
22 members of the guards were on a long furlough. Until when? How long did
23 that last for?
24 A. A few months. I can't tell you exactly how long. It was a long
25 time ago, so I can't be sure of any of the dates.
1 Q. Are we talking about 1994 still?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm looking at the
5 JUDGE ORIE: So am I, Mr. Bakrac.
6 Mr. Pelevic, we will adjourn for the day. And we'll continue
7 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom.
8 But before we adjourn, I would like to instruct you that you
9 should not speak with anyone about your testimony or communicate in any
10 other way, written or oral, about your testimony, whether that is it
11 testimony you've given today or testimony still to be given tomorrow.
12 Another question I would raise: Mr. Bakrac, could you give us an
13 indication as to how much time you would still need tomorrow?
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had not make the
15 same mistake again. Last time I had an old estimate. I know that we
16 envisaged four hours for this witness. I don't know how much I spent,
17 but, with your leave, I would ask for another hour and a half tomorrow.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that would fit within your original
19 estimate. So shortly after the first break you would conclude your
21 We adjourn. And we resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
22 25th of January, at 9.00 in this same courtroom, II.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
25 January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.