Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16836

 1                           Thursday, 2 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, could you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic

 9     and Franko Simatovic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I was informed, Mr. Petrovic, that there was a preliminary matter

12     to be raised by the Simatovic Defence.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14             Very briefly, yesterday document D678 was admitted as a public

15     exhibit.  However, in keeping with the instructions you issued at the

16     start of the testimony of the current witness, it should be admitted as

17     an exhibit under seal.

18             So I would apply for a change of status with regard to that

19     document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since we are in open session, I'll not go into

21     any further details.  But the status of D678 is changed into a

22     confidential exhibit.  We'll have a further look at it.

23             Then could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Draca.


Page 16837

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

 3     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

 4             And Mr. Jordash will now continue his examination -- his

 5     cross-examination.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           WITNESS:  ACO DRACA [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Draca.

12             Just picking up on one issue from yesterday:  Dusan Orlovic.

13     When did he leave the RSK, and where did he go?  Are you able to confirm

14     that he went to Belgrade and worked from Belgrade?

15        A.   He left the RSK sometime in December of 1991.  He would

16     occasionally come to Knin on private business, but I wouldn't see him on

17     these occasions.  He left for Belgrade.

18        Q.   And, as far as you were aware, did not continue acting within the

19     state security within the RSK or conducting any professional business

20     within the RSK of that nature.

21        A.   Precisely so.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the subject I want to now ask you about is the

23     financing of the Krajina MUP and, included with that, the financing of

24     the Krajina DB.

25             Now, you told on the 31st of January that in 1991 as the conflict

Page 16838

 1     developed and the Krajina State Security Service was created, it was

 2     financed in the same way as the public security service at the early

 3     stage through donations.

 4             You recall that evidence?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

 6        Q.   Now, could I just inquire as to how you knew that to be the case?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel speak in the mike, please.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   How did you know that?

10        A.   I knew that because I was part of the system.  I would see

11     colleagues from both public and state security on a daily basis.

12        Q.   Now, there came a point in time when, as you told us, Martic

13     disbanded the DB; November and early December of 1991.

14             You, then, I think you told us yesterday, began working for the

15     TO before then again working for the DB in August of 1992.  In the period

16     where you were working for the TO, were you able to view or did you have

17     any information concerning the financing of the Krajina MUP immediately

18     before the Vance Plan and as the Vance Plan was implemented?

19        A.   In that period of time, I was practically on the border-line.  I

20     wouldn't go to Knin very often.  I would go more oven to Benkovac.  I

21     think that the cash flow was established by that time and that the

22     government budget financed the police force.  But I can't recall exactly

23     when it was that the government was set up and that the budget was

24     basically executed for the first time.

25        Q.   Let's try to break this down a bit.

Page 16839

 1             First of all, do you agree with me that the way that the RSK

 2     authorities interpreted the Vance Plan was to effectively turn - and I'm

 3     generalising, but I'll come to specifics in a minute - but was to

 4     effectively turn the army into the police force?

 5        A.   In principle, yes.  But with far fewer forces.  Most of the RSK

 6     soldiers who had been mobilised at an earlier date went home.

 7        Q.   So what that meant, effectively, was that it was the army which

 8     was responsible, as far as the RSK authorities was concerned, with

 9     setting up, supplying, financing the Krajina police, post-Vance?

10        A.   Since the police had its own budget within the government, I

11     suppose that your statement is true.  But I can't tell you to what extent

12     the army contributed towards the finances.  At any rate, the police did

13     have its own budget.

14        Q.   And let's get to specifics.  And there's nothing you've said that

15     I disagree with, I just want to see if you can help us with the

16     specifics.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, on the screen 65 ter 5599,

18     ERN 0668-2993-B/C/S and -ET, and the e-court page 31, the English, and 31

19     of the B/C/S.

20        Q.   This is a notebook written by Mladic.  I want to see if you can

21     assist in relation to the details concerning his observations of the

22     implementation of the Vance Plan.

23             Let's go, if we can, straight to e-court page 41 of the English

24     and 42 of the B/C/S.  And the date we're looking at is the 20th of

25     February, 1992.  And --

Page 16840

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the page we saw just in a flash a

 2     minute ago seems to be the one corresponding with the page in B/C/S.  So

 3     could we move to the --

 4             MR. JORDASH:  That's the one.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, you --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  This is the one, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  This is the one.  Okay.

 8             MR. JORDASH:

 9        Q.   And Babic [sic] writes:

10             "There is an idea that some of our people be positioned in the

11     government and not only in the MUP and the TO."  That's at number 4.

12             At number 5:

13             "Police, they have formed a Krajina police.  It must start

14     functioning vertically and horizontally."

15             Number 6, and I'm missing things out obviously, but I'm just

16     trying to move swiftly:

17             "Select the best people for the police."

18             And then at the bottom:

19             "The JNA will supplement admission to the police.  The JNA will

20     give three to five --" we're going over the page to B/C/S page 42 and

21     English 42.  "The JNA will give three to five people for the Krajina MUP,

22     give blue clothing to the MUP from the RV but not more than 6.000 sets.

23     They are asking for tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and helicopters.

24     They can only get armoured combat vehicles which should be repainted."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, it was a slip of the tongue when you

Page 16841

 1     refer to Babic, I take it.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  If I did, certainly it was a --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  -- slip of the tongue.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

 6             MR. JORDASH:

 7        Q.   Is this your understanding of the situation as it's described:

 8     the JNA were expected to give some commanding officers to the Krajina

 9     MUP, and not only that, they're expected to give, at least according to

10     Martic and at least according to the JNA, certain supplies - weapons,

11     ammunition, and so on?

12        A.   That's correct.  That's my understanding of the situation,

13     precisely as we read it here.

14             But let me just add.  This is no longer the JNA.  They had

15     withdrawn.  There were only officers who hailed from Krajina.  On the

16     22nd of April, the JNA was already gone.  In February, they were still

17     insisting, though already preparing for departure.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to page 46 of the English and page 46 of

19     B/C/S.  And we're staying with the same date.

20        Q.   And Babic -- I do it again.  Mladic writes:

21             "The JNA will not pay the police --" this is halfway down the

22     page in English.  "The JNA will not pay the police but only our officers

23     active in the MUP and the TO."

24             Now, was that -- from what you've said a few moments ago, that

25     was your understanding, at least in part, that the police would not be

Page 16842

 1     financed by the JNA directly.  Was it also your understanding that the

 2     JNA would finance, though, the officers that it gave - and I say the JNA,

 3     but the -- what remained of the army - would -- from Belgrade, would

 4     finance the officers who had been placed in commanding roles within the

 5     MUP and the TO as well?

 6        A.   Yes.  I was aware of it at the time.  It wasn't even considered a

 7     secret.  That's to say that the officers would continue receiving

 8     salaries from their commands.  At least initially, because nobody

 9     regarded the Vance Plan as something that was going to be happening

10     short-term only [as interpreted], and they didn't know what was going to

11     happen then if things went on for a longer period of time.

12        Q.   Were you aware that Martic was making such -- well, on one view,

13     grandiose requests for his police force; requests for helicopters, for

14     example?

15        A.   That I didn't know.  This is the first time I'm seeing it.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Let's have, please, if we can, on the screen

18     1D02586.

19        Q.   And what I'm going to show you are stenographic records from the

20     187th Session of the Presidency of the SFRY held on the

21     20th of February, 1992, so around the same time as Mladic's entries,

22     beginning at --

23             MR. JORDASH:  If we can turn to page 1 so we can see who's

24     present.  And just for the record:  So we can see that the likes of

25     Petar Gracanin, the federal secretary of the interior, is there; Adzic,

Page 16843

 1     acting federal secretary of national defence.  Neither of the two accused

 2     are present.

 3             And if we go to page 45 of the English, please, and page 82 of

 4     the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   And we can see there the section is dealing with "the report on

 6     direct preparations for and activities relating to the admission of

 7     UN peacekeeping forces?"

 8             And just going down to the page to Adzic and his comments.  And

 9     I'm going to move swiftly through this to save time.  Adzic notes that

10     he'd received Martic within 45 minutes.  "It seems to me that some things

11     have been misunderstood.  He's going for a police force of 20.000 men.

12     No European country has so many policemen.  He has asked me for

13     helicopters and 150 all-terrain vehicles.  I would have to empty a whole

14     army group, including its soldiers, and give it to him."

15             Then over the page, to page 46 of the English:

16             [As read] "But let me make myself clear:  I'll give everything I

17     can give.  But we should see tomorrow, and the federal SUP and the MUP of

18     Serbia should be here to see how many policemen should be there, because

19     Krajina cannot be defended by those policemen.  There are other ways."

20             One line down:

21             [As read] "I have prepared some airmen's uniforms for them to

22     wear.  Serbia probably has to be give something.  Some money has to be

23     allocated for making purchases.  Weapons - what is available, what is

24     needed - we will give what we can; but I certainly cannot --" sorry, "I

25     certainly can't give them helicopters for the police.  Tanks won't be

Page 16844

 1     recognised - that won't be given them either -- that won't be given

 2     either," et cetera.

 3             Are you able to confirm that it was Adzic who was principally the

 4     contact who was expected to provide the Krajina police, post-Vance, with

 5     what they required: Weapons, ammunition, logistics, and the like,

 6     uniforms, et cetera?

 7        A.   As I'm reading these notes - this is the first time I see it - it

 8     seems that all these things were supposed to come from the JNA.  Under

 9     the Vance Plan, the RSK was not entitled to an army, and that's why

10     Martic was asking for 20.000 men.  There was still a threat present at

11     the outlying boundaries of the territory, and we didn't have any armed

12     men.

13        Q.   Are you able to testify to any conversations you had with Martic

14     or any conversations you were told about where Martic was insisting that

15     the police would effectively be the army and that's why he saw it as his

16     duty to approach the likes of Adzic for supplies?

17        A.   Yes.  We did discuss this topic before the State Security Service

18     was dissolved.  Some sort of a peace plan was expected.  We didn't know

19     the details.  Though Martic was informed - probably somebody from the top

20     Serbian leadership did tell him - that peace forces would be sent from

21     the UN and that the RSK with not be entitled to an army.  He knew that he

22     had to sign a peace plan but -- and also that he had to have some sort of

23     a force that would, first of all, maintain law and order, and, second of

24     all, should there come an attack from Croatia, there should be a

25     contingent of armed men, even if they only carried side-arms.  I didn't

Page 16845

 1     see him for a while after that meeting, so I don't know what his response

 2     was in relation to the peace plan and its application.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  And if we go to page 47 of the English and 86 of

 4     the B/C/S, please.  We'll see Adzic continuing to speak at this

 5     Presidency session.

 6             Where he notes -- and I'm interested in the paragraph that

 7     begins:  "That's what I wanted to let you know."

 8             And we can see that Adzic continues to complain about Martic's

 9     rather large and ambitious requests.  And then he notes:

10             "I believe that once we have resolved this we will request

11     consent from the Presidency for this equipment and these things to be

12     given to the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

13             Do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Was it your understanding that this was the chain of authority,

16     effectively, for the supplies coming from Belgrade to the Krajina: Martic

17     to Adzic, Adzic to the Presidency, Presidency make a decision, supplies

18     come to the RSK?

19        A.   Precisely.  Correct.

20             MR. JORDASH:  And if we go to page 49 of the English and 89 of

21     the B/C/S.

22        Q.   We'll see a speech by Gracanin, who, I think it's agreed, was the

23     federal secretary of the interior, who's noting in response to a

24     discussion about the Territorial Defence of the RSK refusing to give up

25     their weapons:

Page 16846

 1             "All right, we should now look into that," he said.  "This is

 2     very hard.  It's not easy to separate one's self from one's weapon.  We

 3     should understand them in that respect.  But if we have good

 4     organisation, those handing over their weapons will certainly find it

 5     easier to do so once they have seen that the police are well organised.

 6     If this meeting is held tomorrow, we must start working as soon as

 7     possible along three or four different lines.  As for the financial part

 8     with regard to the police, some loans have been taken out."

 9             Are you able to testify to what Gracanin said there and the role

10     that Gracanin played in relation to ensuring adequate finances for the

11     RSK MUP?

12        A.   Specifically about the financing and whether the RSK government

13     took loans in order to pay out salaries and finance itself, I really

14     don't know that.  I'm seeing this for the first time.  If there were such

15     borrowings, then that's probably that, and it went to the Krajina

16     government which then probably made the transfer of funds for the police.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Let's go to D56, please, another document.

19        Q.   This document, as you'll see, comes from -- well, I'll wait until

20     it comes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could we ask one.  And we are talking

22     about financing, what is discussed on the 20th of February.

23             Was there any financing foreseen by Belgrade, by Yugoslavia, for

24     reservists?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was still the period when the

Page 16847

 1     Yugoslav People's Army existed.  All the officer salaries and all the

 2     active and reserve units went through the Main Staff or the Ministry of

 3     Defence or, as it was called at the time, the Federal Secretariat for

 4     National Defence in Belgrade.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And for reservists, did that continue after the JNA

 6     was withdrawn?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the withdrawal of the JNA and

 8     the organising of the Serbian Army of the Krajina, I think that stopped.

 9     I don't know if the defence ministry of the Krajina received loans from

10     the Ministry of Defence of Serbia.  It's something that I don't know.

11     But I think that in the beginning the budget of the Krajina government

12     was composed of loans and other donations, because the economy there was

13     not very developed.  So I guess that the money was obtained in this way.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say it was loans from the federal government

15     rather than other payments.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat: I am not able to say that

17     exactly, if I might put it that way.  I was low ranking at the time, so I

18     couldn't really know how the government obtained or borrowed money.  Here

19     I see that there were some loans, so I assume that the government did

20     borrow money in order to be able to finance its budget.  But I don't know

21     from whom and how it borrowed the money.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You also do not know whether it was limited to loans

23     or whether there were any direct payments in support of the budget.  Not

24     being loans.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know if there were

Page 16848

 1     any direct payments or how the payments were made or how things were paid

 2     out.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps I can hopefully assist a little with that.

 6     Could we go to - could we stay with the same document, please - page 47

 7     of the English, and B/C/S page 84.

 8             I don't know if this is what Your Honour had in mind, but I hope

 9     it might assist.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know what you're referring to, so I don't

11     know whether it coincides with what I had on my mind.  But let's -- ask

12     your questions and I may find out.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   What we're going to see now again is a continuation of the Adzic

15     speech which we've been discussing.  And at the top of the English page,

16     Adzic says:

17             "Martic has made another request, which is not unfounded.  Today,

18     between 30.000 and 40.000 reservists from the Krajinas are receiving some

19     sort of food allowance.  He says if we discontinue it immediately there

20     will be widespread famine, which is not far from the absolute truth;

21     because that's what people live off there.  It's this base money issue.

22     He ... asked that this be extended by at least two or three months, which

23     I don't think should be a big problem; we should do this at the coast of

24     all this - the system should start functioning.  And he is asking

25     intelligent questions even though he's not a businessman.  Businessmen

Page 16849

 1     should go there quickly to establish something, to create something that

 2     could support Krajina, because Serbia and the mint certainly won't be

 3     able to withstand that."

 4             Do you know anything about that, Mr. Draca?  When I say "about

 5     that," about the supply of food in substitute for wages, with the

 6     expectation that reservists would, several months after the

 7     implementation of the Vance Plan, then be supported by local businesses?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be my lack of knowledge of the English

 9     language, but food and food allowance is not the same to me.  Food

10     allowance could be in terms of money; whereas, food supplies is that you

11     provide bread or ...

12             "The supply of food in substitute for wages," you said.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour is absolutely right.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

15             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  It's --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know anything about -- then about payments

17     made to reservists and perhaps to be continued in order to allow them to

18     buy food?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All mobilised reservists in the JNA

20     received their salary by way of daily remuneration.  Whoever had their

21     job and was mobilised would receive a part of his salary in the company

22     where he was employed, and the rest he would receive from the JNA per day

23     of service.  Martic was probably concerned because the economy was in a

24     shambles because of the war, that because they did not receive proper

25     compensation, they would not have enough means to support themselves.

Page 16850

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question more specifically was whether you

 2     know anything about reservists receiving food allowance which, as is

 3     proposed here, which would then continue.  And, I take it, to continue

 4     even after they were not JNA reservists anymore.

 5             Do you know anything about that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is exactly what I was saying.

 7     There was no particular compensation for food.  But from what I

 8     understand of what is written here, what he wanted to say was that the

 9     money that they were receiving was enough just for food for them to

10     survive.

11             As far as I know, there was no special compensation for food, but

12     there were per diem payments which were paid out on a monthly basis, but

13     this was very low.  It was just enough for food, nothing more.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My question focusses on these kind of payments

15     to be continued even after they had quitted their positions as JNA

16     reservists and financed from, if I could say it briefly, Belgrade.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever remained in the police

18     units would continue to receive their salary, but no longer as per diems

19     but as a salary from the Ministry of Interior.  The financing of the

20     ministry and the government is something that I really cannot talk about.

21     I don't know where they got their funds from.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But if the number of 30- to 40.000 reservists is

23     mentioned, they did not remain in the police force, did they?  Reservists

24     of the JNA by that number.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they did not.  This is the

Page 16851

 1     number that the JNA mobilised by 1992.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we have D56 on the

 5     screen, please.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, Madam Registrar reminds me that there

 8     was an issue about the provenance of D56, a document which had been

 9     tendered earlier but was not admitted and was then re-tendered by the

10     Simatovic Defence, but which is, as far as I understand, not in evidence

11     at this moment.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, that's right.  It was not admitted.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is there any news about the provenance or ...

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, the part that we indicated provenance before,

17     and we can't really take it any further than that, what I was hoping to

18     do was ask the witness about the contents and see if he can --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  To see whether he can --

20             MR. JORDASH:  -- we can get there by different routes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then the status of the document is clear.

22     Please proceed.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  D56.

24        Q.   If you have a look at this document coming on the screen and see

25     if can you assist with its contents.

Page 16852

 1             If I can summarize what the document appears to be and see if you

 2     can comment on this.

 3             It appears to be a document sent by Gracanin to Sokolovic of the

 4     Serbian MUP explaining the decision of the Presidency which had been

 5     dealing with organising or certainly laying out some kind of plan for the

 6     organisation of the internal affairs service in the RSK.

 7             Do you know anything about this subject?  Are you able to confirm

 8     any of the contents of the document?

 9        A.   I'm seeing this document for the first time.  In view of the fact

10     that in that period I was not working at the Ministry of the Interior in

11     Knin, I really don't know anything about it.

12        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Let's move on, then.

13             To save time, I will not refer you to a document.

14             MR. JORDASH:  P1226 [Realtime transcript read in error "1266"],

15     Your Honours, is -- deals with the financing of the -- sorry, the

16     supplies to the MUP units of the RSK in February of 1992.

17             Could we have on the screen, please, P2445.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is under seal.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

20        Q.   And, as we can see, this is a federal Secretariat of the Interior

21     document dated the 12th of March, 1992, and it's being sent to the

22     Ministry of Interior of the Serbian DB.

23             And the section I'm particularly interested in, it's an

24     Official Note, as we can see, if we go to the second page, concerning a

25     talk that's been had with Martic on the 9th of March, a talk between

Page 16853

 1     Chief Inspector Djurovic and Martic.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  And if we could go to page 3 of the English and

 3     page 3 of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And I want to see if you're able to cast some further light on

 5     this issue.

 6             So 12th of March, 1992.  The report -- and the report notes:

 7             "Martic particularly stressed that they no longer had ...

 8     reservations with regard to the composition of the SUP staff and that

 9     they were fully prepared to accept any form of co-operation with the

10     SUP."

11             Which, I suggest, reads as if prior to this Martic not only had a

12     problem with the Serbian DB, but he had a problem with the

13     federal Secretariat of the SUP and had not been co-operating with them

14     prior to this date.

15             Do you know anything about that?

16        A.   That is correct.  He wasn't co-operating.  And as it states here,

17     he had some reserves towards the cadre and the leadership of the federal

18     SUP.  But I don't know what the reasons were for Martic's thinking.

19        Q.   Does that mean - and I'm not asking you to speculate.  If you

20     know, you know; if you don't, you don't - does that mean that -- was that

21     an explanation concerning why Martic and the RSK MUP replied upon

22     donations for a period of time in 1991 and 1992, because they weren't

23     getting any help from the federal SUP and they weren't getting any help

24     from the Serbian MUP?

25        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, this is a period when there was no help

Page 16854

 1     from anyone.

 2        Q.   And, again, I'm not asking you to speculate, but from this time

 3     onwards is it -- is it your understanding that Martic then began to look

 4     to the army in Belgrade and then, at times, to the federal SUP for

 5     assistance?  Professional assistance such as expertise.

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, may I seek clarification.

 8             You document you have not used, P1266, where you said was

 9     about -- let me see what you said exactly.  Which deals with -- you said

10     the supplies to the MUP units of the RSK in February of 1992.

11             As far as I'm aware, P1266 is an instruction to Republika Srpska

12     and Army of the Republika Srpska Krajina to send reports by 8.00 this

13     evening, not specifically focussing on any supplies to the MUP units.  So

14     therefore I'm puzzled by -- even if you did not deal with it with the

15     witness, apparently there is some --

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I misspoke, and I apologise.  I seem

17     to be doing it a lot this morning.  It's P1226.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  1226.  Thank you.

19             MR. JORDASH:  And page 3 of the English.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16855











11 Page 16855-16856 redacted. Redaction order.
















Page 16857

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             I hear of no objections.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1406 will receive number D679,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Private session]


Page 16858

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Now, I don't want to re-start the discussion, but the mere fact


Page 16859

 1     that documents are on a web site, as may be known to many of us, does not

 2     necessarily mean that it is a public document.  I think WikiLeaks has

 3     shown that not everything what is found on the web is by its nature meant

 4     to be public.

 5             So if you would please carefully look at it again, to the

 6     sources.

 7             And, Mr. Farr, if you would nevertheless try to find out.

 8             The document is provisionally put under seal, up to the moment

 9     where we -- you have verified what web site you consulted, Mr. Jordash.

10             And, Mr. Farr, you will have an opportunity to further verify as

11     well.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have 1D02090, please.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Can the counsel please repeat the number.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, 1D02090.

16        Q.   This is a document, Mr. Draca, which I think you've seen, because

17     it was part of the documents we gave you a couple of days ago.  So we

18     ought to move -- be able to move fairly swiftly.

19             Do you recall the document?

20             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, at the time these --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

22             MR. FARR:  At the time these documents were provided to the

23     witness, we indicated that given that the witness was going to have a

24     chance to review them before coming to court, that's it's the

25     Prosecution's position that an independent foundation for knowledge

Page 16860

 1     regarding the contents of the document should be established before the

 2     document is used so we'll know what the witness is testifying to from

 3     personal knowledge and what he may have learned by reviewing the

 4     document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, would you keep this in back of your

 6     mind.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Well, this is a document -- I will, Your Honour,

 8     but this is a document which relates to the issue we've been discussing

 9     for the last 45 minutes, and I think the witness has laid a very serious

10     foundation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could be, but I do not know what questions you're

12     going to put to the witness, so it's difficult for me to -- to say yes or

13     no to Mr. Farr.  That's ...

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Let's have a look at the first page just very quickly with

16     reference to a meeting between the SSNO and various representatives from

17     the RSK concerning the replenishment of materiel and technical equipment

18     for the TO units and staffs as well as the police organs and units of the

19     RSK.

20             And then going over to page 2:

21             "It was concluded," the document notes, and I quote, "that the

22     police organs and units will be given 20.000 outfits, and a hundred

23     all-terrain vehicles.  Regarding other equipment, the MUP was tasked to

24     submit requests on replenishments."

25             When you rejoined the RSK DB, was this the situation that you

Page 16861

 1     found, i.e., that requests were being made by -- the RSK MUP on a regular

 2     basis to the SSNO?

 3        A.   As far as I know of the period after I rejoined the

 4     Ministry of the Interior, the MUP did not send requests directly to the

 5     SSNO.  Rather, they went through the RSK government.

 6        Q.   And then the RSK government went to the SSNO.  That was the chain

 7     of requests for supplies.

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  May I tendered the document, Your Honour, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It would have assisted me, at least,

11     Mr. Jordash if at the beginning the dates of the document would have been

12     clear to me, but I see now that on the first page it's the

13     7th of April, 1992 .

14             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And I hear of no objections.

16             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2090 will receive number D680,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D680 is admitted into evidence.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have 1D02096, please.

22             This is one of several documents which deal with federal

23     secretary and delivering -- and delivery of arms for the reserves and MUP

24     divisions of the RSK.

25             And you've read this document; am I correct?  Would you agree

Page 16862

 1     that this is consistent with your understanding of how things worked at

 2     the time?  That's April of 1992.

 3        A.   That's correct.  I agree.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  And let's go to 1D01370.

 5        Q.   This is a similar document, dated the 25th of April, 1992.  And

 6     it's significant, perhaps, insofar as it details supplies but also refers

 7     to - halfway down the page or a third of the way down the page:

 8             "A Federal Secretariat for National Defence resolution, top

 9     secret, number 352-1, dated the 20th of April, 1992."

10             Were you aware of that resolution and it, as described in the

11     document, being designed to fulfil the ammunition requests of the MUP of

12     RSK?

13        A.   I didn't know of this specific document at the time, but I knew

14     that things like that did occur in practice.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, may I tender the last two documents,

17     but may I also tender from the bar table, with agreement from the

18     Prosecution, similar documents:  First of all, 1D02026, relating to the

19     Okucani MUP station; 1D02027, relating to the Knin MUP station; 1D02028,

20     relating to the Petrinja MUP station; 1D02072, relating to the MUP

21     station of Benkovac.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The first document was 1D2090; this will receive

Page 16863

 1     number D681, Your Honours.

 2             Then document 1D1370 will receive number D682, Your Honours.

 3             Then the next one was 1D2026, will receive number D683.

 4             And it seems that I cannot find -- next ones are not picked up in

 5     the transcript.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  1D02027.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  -- will receive number D684, Your Honours.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  1D02028.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  -- will receive number D685, Your Honours.

10             MR. JORDASH:  And 1D02072.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  -- will receive number D686, Your Honours.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

13             MR. FARR:  And, Your Honour, the transcript doesn't -- as it now

14     stands, doesn't reflect exactly what Mr. Jordash said, just to put that

15     on the record so there's no confusion regarding which documents have

16     which numbers.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that special attention will be paid

18     when reviewing the transcript on the numbers.

19             D681 up to and including D686 are admitted into evidence.

20             Mr. Jordash, you say it's all about distribution of equipment,

21     arms, et cetera.

22             Now, just for my understanding, I think one of the first document

23     or the second was about fire-arms, and we are talking about ten, I think,

24     or 20 -- it's very limited number.  Whereas the document now, with the

25     ammunition, is well over a million pieces of ammunition.

Page 16864

 1             Is there any further guidance for us to see how the one relates

 2     to the other?  Of course it could be that there are 200 similar documents

 3     with ten weapons.  That makes 20.000.  And then 20.000 to a million is

 4     easier -- is an easier jump than ten rifles or -- I can't get them all on

 5     my screen immediately, but I'm thinking in terms of quantities, whether

 6     the ammunition matches the number of weapons provided to, if I understand

 7     you well, the MUP of Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 8             You understand what I -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, I do, but I --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One rifle and 10 million cartridges, I have some

11     difficulties, and, of course, I'm now exaggerating, but I'm trying to --

12     to look at the matters in the context, not having looked at the documents

13     themselves in detail.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly from the documents that we have, and have

15     seen, you are not able to correlate between weapons and ammunition.  All

16     these are, are effectively lists of ammunition provided, with very little

17     indication of the -- the -- the weapons and the amount of weapons

18     delivered --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. JORDASH:  -- or possessed by the MUP.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm saying this because if I would have one

22     rifle and if I would receive a million cartridges, I would consider to

23     share some of it with my neighbours.  That's ... therefore, I'm trying to

24     look at the quantitative aspects as well.  But if you say there's -- it's

25     difficult to -- to clearly make a link between numbers in this respect,

Page 16865

 1     then that is accepted and the puzzle remains.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly, Your Honour, the amount of ammunition is

 3     noteworthy, because it is --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I did --

 5             MR. JORDASH:  -- it is large.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Especially -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And, you know, if you have no explanation to provide

 9     with this witness, then we move on, and the puzzle is -- remains.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. JORDASH:  I'm about to move to Pauk.  I don't know if this is

12     a good time for --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's the right time for a break.

14             Could you give us an indication, Mr. Jordash, on how much time

15     you'd need after the break.  I think your initial estimate was two hours,

16     or ...

17             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  I think I would like 45 minutes,

18     if I may.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  45 minutes.  I think that fits well into the

20     original estimate.  You have 45 minutes after the break.

21             And we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

25             I'm looking at the clock.  It's ten minutes to 11.00 now.

Page 16866

 1     45 minutes for you.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we have P1289.

 3        Q.   I want to deal with the subject of Pauk, Mr. Draca.

 4             From what you've told us, you met and discussed at length the

 5     issue of Pauk with Fikret Abdic.  I want to ask you about a particular

 6     view that he may have expressed.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  P -- P1289, a report from the Republic of Serbian

 8     Krajina army.  If we go to page 4 of the English, please, and I'm hoping,

 9     although I don't have an indication, that's it's page 4 of B/C/S.  It's

10     the title the "National Defence of the Autonomous Province of

11     Western Bosnia Forces."  And the document is dated

12     20th of November, 1994.  And it appears to be some sort of security

13     assessment.

14             And the section I'm interested in is the sentence beginning:  "A

15     very admiral initiative of F. Abdic to proclaim this area a protected

16     area or to make this area a UN protectorate ..."

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

19     interrupting.  But it seems that my learned friend misspoke when stating

20     the date of the document, and I'm raising this merely to avoid misleading

21     the witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The record says 20th of November, 1994, Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  You're right.  And it was -- the document has a

24     stamp which shows it was received on that, it seems, by the Republic of

25     Serbian Krajina government, but in fact the date of the document, the

Page 16867

 1     operative time on the front page is stated as 2000 hours on

 2     18th of August, 1994.

 3             Thank you to Mr. Petrovic.

 4        Q.   And have you found the section, Mr. Draca, dealing with the very

 5     admirably initiative of Abdic to proclaim this area a protected area or

 6     make this area an UN protectorate with the help from UNPROFOR was not

 7     accepted?  Fikret Abdic has accepted negotiations on the local level in

 8     order to organise the Defence and gain some time.

 9        A.   Yes, I can see that.

10        Q.   I want to also ask you to look at another document before I ask

11     you a question.  1D05296, which is a letter from Abdic to the then-UN

12     Secretary General Boutros-Ghali, which unfortunately hasn't scanned, it

13     seems, very clearly.

14             MR. JORDASH:  We do have a paper copy.  Perhaps it would be

15     easier for the witness if we gave him the paper copy.

16        Q.   If you just have a skim through this letter, which is a -- as

17     I've said, a letter from Abdic to Ghali, and it's dated

18     7th of October, 1994.

19             Have you had an opportunity to have skim a through it?

20        A.   Yes.  I've read it careful the day before yesterday when you gave

21     me the documents.

22        Q.   Sorry, my apologies.

23             Was this a view that Fikret Abdic was expressing on a regular

24     basis, a view that he was desperate for the UN to come in or the

25     international community to provide assistance to his people in the Bihac

Page 16868

 1     region?

 2        A.   That's correct.  The only difference between this and the

 3     previous document lies in the fact that the previous document was written

 4     several days before they fled to the RSK territory, whereas this document

 5     was produced in such a way that Fikret Abdic complained directly to the

 6     UN general -- Secretary-General of the conduct exhibited by the UN forces

 7     already at the point after they had fled.  A member of the

 8     UN Polish Battalion opened fire on the refugees who were attempting to

 9     enter the territory of the Republic of Croatia illegally.  Everything

10     else, however, is correct, where he describes the sentiments of the

11     people, et cetera.

12             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender the Fikret Abdic letter, please,

13     Your Honour.

14             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, we haven't received any information on

15     the provenance of this document, so we have an objection to authenticity,

16     pending that.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Can I MFI it and we'll provide the information.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5296 will receive number D687,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

24             MR. JORDASH:

25        Q.   And the reality is as you saw it - is this right? - and the

Page 16869

 1     reality is as Fikret Abdic saw it, that absent any action by the

 2     international community, absent any action by the UN, the only protection

 3     for his people from the 5th Corps was to seek help from Serbia and to

 4     seek help from the RSK?

 5             Is that a fair summary?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And so that we're clear:  Help from an army, the 5th Corps, which

 8     was, even by the standards of this Balkans crisis, an extremely vicious

 9     army when it came to treatment of civilians?

10        A.   That's correct.  It was well known, especially the 505th Brigade,

11     was known of their -- for their cruelty towards civilians.

12        Q.   And, in fact, one of the problems that Fikret Abdic had was that

13     his own army was actually too frightened, in many respects, to even face

14     the 5th Corps because of that reputation.

15             Is that something that Fikret Abdic talked about?

16        A.   That is correct.  Fikret Abdic did talk about that.  But we also

17     had intelligence information from several sources confirming this to be

18     correct.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, P1285.

21             It's a document which is a security organ of the Main Staff of

22     the Serbian Army of Krajina, dated the 30th of June, 1994.

23        Q.   And I want to go, please, first of all, to the first page so you

24     can just orientate yourself as to the nature of the document.

25             MR. JORDASH:  And then if we can go to page 2 of the English and

Page 16870

 1     page 3 of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   And this is a document which ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             MR. JORDASH:

 5        Q.   If you just have a quick look at that.  This is a document which

 6     is entitled "Explanation, Situation in the Autonomous Province of Western

 7     Bosnia."

 8             And on page 2 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S we have

 9     reference to three meetings, the VRSK and the VJ representatives held

10     three meetings with APZB president Fikret Abdic in Lika Kladusa with the

11     aim of preparing an offensive activity by the APZB forces to regain

12     seized territory and liberate new territories ending at the Zezin [phoen]

13     area.

14             Now, if you go further down the page, you see meetings referred

15     to with Celeketic and Mladic and Perisic and also Stanisic.

16             And then further down the page you see the sentence:

17             "According to Abdic, president of the RSK government

18     Borislav Mikelic was to realize the delivery of weapons and ammunition to

19     the APZB."

20             Was that consistent with your understanding in the middle of

21     1994, that the assistance that was being proposed at that stage was

22     assistance which would, in terms of weapons and ammunition, come from the

23     RSK to Pauk?  That was the channel of weapons and ammunition proposed to

24     assist Abdic.

25             Do you agree with that?

Page 16871

 1        A.   No.  Probably you perhaps made an error.  Pauk was not

 2     established in that period.  This is June 1994, when Fikret Abdic and the

 3     majority of the people are still in Kladusa.  They're still in their

 4     territory, but they had lost a part of the territory that they were

 5     staying in up until that time.  Already at that time, if I can put it

 6     that way, there was panic beginning to spread among the population.  They

 7     didn't know what to do.  And so I think this document, as I understand

 8     it, is Abdic's attempt to return the territory and was asking for help

 9     from the VRSK and the Army of Serbia.

10        Q.   And you're absolute right; I misspoke.  Let me just clarify this.

11             The period before Pauk began in late 1994, around November, the

12     period before that, this -- the, if we can say, the operations which were

13     perhaps a precursor to Pauk, the weapons and ammunition were coming from

14     the RSK to Fikret Abdic.

15             Is that fair enough?

16        A.   That is correct.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Now, if we go to -- if we can have, please,

18     65 ter 5609, ERN 0668-2082-B/C/S-ET.  And the e-court page 114 B/C/S and

19     115 English.  This is a Mladic notebook.  And the entry is dated

20     13th of October, 1994, and it's a meeting with commanders of the army of

21     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, 15 Corps,

22     21st Corps, and 39 Corps.

23             Do you have that?

24        A.   I see it, but I don't see the corps that you mentioned.  It just

25     states "the commander of the 11th Brigade" here.

Page 16872

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... You're right.  We don't have

 2     the right Mladic excerpt on the screen.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  It should be one relating to the 13th of October,

 4     and it should be 65 ter 5609.  And it should be page 114 of the B/C/S and

 5     115 of the English.

 6        Q.   Whilst that's coming up, we're going to look at a meeting

 7     involving the 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps and the 15th Corps and the

 8     21st Corps and the 39th Corps.  These were all units of which army,

 9     Mr. Draca?

10        A.   That is right.

11        Q.   Sorry.  They were the units of the RSK?

12        A.   From what I can see, yes, that is right.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, this entry dated the 13th of October, 1994, if we go

14     over the page to something that Mladic records General Celeketic saying.

15     Page 115 of the B/C/S and 116 of the English.  And Celeketic notes:

16             "We are the Serbian army, one army.  Nobody has betrayed you, it

17     was just the way it was.  Our MTS situation is worse than yours.  We have

18     problems with ammunition.  I received the task that we should do as much

19     as we can.  Since the Serbian MUP is not coming and since they are not

20     sending the MTS, I will light the fire by the 15th Corps and the

21     39th Corps and help towards Kladusa."

22             Are you able to comment on this discussion?  Am I correct that

23     Celeketic was supposed to be providing supplies; was not providing

24     sufficient supplies, according to Fikret Abdic; no supplies were coming

25     from the Serbian MUP in October of 1994 and prior to that?

Page 16873

 1        A.   Yes, you are correct.

 2        Q.   So we're clear:  How did you -- how do you know that?  What's

 3     your source of knowledge for that?

 4        A.   As the chief of the state security department, I was also a

 5     member of the Supreme Defence Council of the RSK, and Celeketic did

 6     report back about this matter at a meeting.  Actually, at several

 7     meetings.

 8        Q.   But was -- am I correct that the problem wasn't weapons, because

 9     Fikret Abdic had many weapons, in part because the VRS left their weapons

10     to him; is that correct?

11        A.   That is correct.  The problem was in the ammunition and in

12     artillery shells, of which there was a shortage in the Krajina.  And you

13     can see from this text that Celeketic, as the chief of the General Staff

14     of the RSK army, was complaining to Mladic about the things that we were

15     just commenting on just now.

16        Q.   And did -- did -- did this -- did that situation then change as a

17     result of Abdic's complaint to Celeketic, and Celeketic's complaint to

18     Mladic?

19        A.   Nothing changed in that period.

20        Q.   Did there come a time when it did change during the currency of

21     the Pauk operation?

22        A.   Yes.  Later, when the operation to return began, the return of

23     the units of the Army of western Bosnia, the Main Staff of the RSK army

24     secured a number of ammunition pieces for the use of Fikret Abdic.  But I

25     don't know where that was obtained from, whether it was from the existing

Page 16874

 1     VRSK reserves or if they received assistance from Republika Srpska or the

 2     Republic of Serbia.

 3        Q.   Is there any reason why you don't know that?  I'm not suggesting

 4     you should, but is there any reason why you don't know that?

 5        A.   The army has its own chains of command, and this is not some

 6     major thing that they would need to report to anybody from the civilian

 7     authorities.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 9             I want to now just widen the discussion a little bit to the

10     assistance provided by the RSK to the Pauk operation and Bihac in

11     general.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could I have on the screen, please, 1D05297.

13        Q.   This is a map that we, in the Defence, have drawn.  And I want to

14     ask you if this corresponds to your knowledge concerning the locations of

15     the military formations of the 11th Corps in 1994 and 1995 within

16     Eastern Slavonia.

17        A.   I can see that this is a map of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja, but

18     I cannot remember.  I don't know if I ever knew specifically where all

19     the forces were located.

20        Q.   I don't know if the Prosecution dispute this or not, but are you

21     able to give any indication of whether this was your general

22     understanding of the spread of the 11th Corps military formations?  Were

23     these the approximate area that they were based in, in 1994 and 1995?

24        A.   I assume that that was so.  Can I see the deployment.  There was

25     concentration along the roads, along the river Drava.

Page 16875

 1             Yes, I think that that's how it was.

 2        Q.   Do you know anything about Mirkovci, as can you see on the map;

 3     was there military formations there?

 4        A.   Yes, they were.  Because that place bordered with the Republic of

 5     Croatia.

 6        Q.   There's been a suggestion in this case that the only military

 7     formation in Mirkovci was the Boca's unit, the Skorpions.  Do you agree

 8     that that's not true?

 9        A.   Absolutely not.  The Skorpions were a paramilitary unit in our

10     mind that was not part of the 11th Corps in Knin.  At least as far as we

11     knew.  And it was used to secure the Opatovci oil facilities, and it was

12     engaged by the NIK, the oil industry of the Krajina.  And I know --

13        Q.   Sorry, I interrupted you.  You know ...

14        A.   As far as I know, during that period that was that -- the task

15     that they were executing, the security for the oil facilities, in order

16     to avoid -- well, how can I put it so that you understand me?

17             They did not belong to the 11th Corps, but so that we would not

18     treat them as a paramilitary unit, they had signed a contract with the

19     oil industry and they were providing security for the oil installations

20     at Opatovci.

21        Q.   Just to be clear:  They were not based at Mirkovci; they were in

22     Djeletovci; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Djeletovci and Opatovci are close by and

24     they were in that area.

25        Q.   Erdut at this time --

Page 16876

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could I ask.

 2             Could you then tell us which unit of the 11th Corps was in

 3     Mirkovci?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  Some brigade

 5     or some battalion that was part of the 11th Corps.  But I don't know the

 6     names of the units.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not knowing the names, what's the basis of your

 8     knowledge on who were in Mirkovci?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Other than the armed forces of the

10     VRSK and the police, which already in 1994, especially in Slavonia and

11     Baranja where peace had been established for a while, the police was

12     carrying out regular police work.  No one could have been in that area

13     other than units of the 11th Corps.

14             I don't know exactly how they were deployed.  I really cannot

15     remember that.  Perhaps I didn't ever know that.

16             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you -- if you

17     say - and let me quote you then literally - "No one could have been in

18     that area other than units of the 11th Corps."

19             Now, one of the previous questions of Mr. Jordash was: "They were

20     in Djeletovci," when he was referring to the -- when he was referring to

21     the Skorpions.  That's the same region, isn't it?  It's a distance of

22     only a few kilometres.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's close by.  But Mirkovci

24     was specific because it was the most forward point towards Vinkovci.  It

25     was where the first strike was supposed to hit --

Page 16877

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

 2     of his answer.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last portion of your

 4     answer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The specific thing about Mirkovci:

 6     Its strategic position meant that it was very important for the RSK

 7     defence, because it was located in such a place that a possible attack by

 8     the Republic of Croatia would be conducted along one of the axes leading

 9     to Mirkovci, and that's why Mirkovci was a very fortified location.

10             As for the other villages, Djeletovci, Opatovci, that seems to be

11     very close on the map.  They seem very close by.  But actually, as far as

12     the defence is concerned, they were not like Mirkovci or had nothing in

13     common with Mirkovci in that sense at all.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you described to us the tasks of the Skorpions.

15             Now, do you know whether they were in Djeletovci, yes or no?  Was

16     that compatible with the task they were given?  Or don't you just know?

17     I'd like to ... if you know, tell us what the basis of your knowledge is.

18     If you say, "Well, I really don't know; I know what their task was, but

19     apart from that, I do not know whether they were in Djeletovci," please

20     tell us.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as their assignment is

22     concerned, it's exactly as I said what it was before.  They were

23     providing security for the facilities of the oil industry.  The place

24     where they were billeted, however, as far as I recall, was in Djeletovci,

25     which was in the immediate vicinity.

Page 16878

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what's the basis for this recollection?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The State Security Service of the

 3     Krajina was observing, or monitoring, this unit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we have on the

 7     screen, please, 1D02572.

 8        Q.   I want to ask you about Erdut.  Am I correct that at this time,

 9     the time we're talking about, Erdut -- there was in Erdut the Ministry of

10     Defence; that's where it was stationed?

11             MR. FARR:  Sorry, Your Honour, this may be my problem rather than

12     anyone else's, but I'm not entirely clear exactly what time we're talking

13     about at this moment.

14             MR. JORDASH:  1994 and 1995.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Exactly 1994 and 1995, yes.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH:

18        Q.   Am I correct that the Ministry of Defence was stationed in Erdut

19     in 1994 and 1995?  If you can be more specific than me and help Mr. Farr,

20     that would be great.

21        A.   The defence ministry seat was in Knin.  One of the ministry's

22     buildings was in Erdut, where the deputy minister was staying.  Slavonia

23     and Baranja are physically separated from the rest of the Krajina, and

24     all the deputies were located in the ministries, and I think each of the

25     ministries - I'm not sure whether it was each single one - also had

Page 16879

 1     offices in the area of Slavonia and Baranja.

 2        Q.   If you look at the document on the screen dated 21st of June --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic is on his feet.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, everything that the

 5     witness said about who is in the offices in the area of Slavonia and

 6     Baranja was not recorded in the transcript, so perhaps it would be a good

 7     idea to ask the witness to repeat that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat who were in the offices, the

 9     offices of the ministries in Slavonia and Baranja.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically in the building that

11     Mr. Jordash asked about was where the deputy minister was located.  But

12     other ministries also in that area, perhaps not in Erdut but in

13     Beli Manastir and Vukovar, were also represented in that area.

14             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately again

15     it's not stated which deputy of the defence minister was located.  The

16     witness said it, but it's not in the transcript.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, your guidance was not very precise in

18     that respect.

19             Apparently you have told us which deputy minister of defence was

20     in the Slavonia and Baranja branch office, if I could say so.  Could you

21     give us his name?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall the name right now,

23     but it was Janovic [as interpreted], aka, Mrgud.  We already referred to

24     him before.  Milanovic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

Page 16880

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             21st of June, 1995, an RDB's report.  Could we go, please, to

 3     page 5 of the English and page 5 of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   I'm interested in what it describes as being based in Erdut as

 5     well:

 6             "Apart from the army, in the event of Croatia's aggression, the

 7     detachment of the PJM of the SUP of Beli Manastir would also be included

 8     in the defence and would be attached to the 60th Brigade for anti-landing

 9     and anti-sabotage activities.  According to establishment, the detachment

10     is part of the brigade and is based in Erdut; it is made up of

11     active-duty and reserve ... officers."

12             Are you able to confirm that this was a unit of armed men in

13     Erdut in 1995?

14        A.   I didn't manage to find that paragraph.  I would like to read it

15     before I give my answer.

16        Q.   Let's -- let me find precisely where that is, but we'll come back

17     to that.

18             In the meantime, I want to ask you about a related topic, which

19     is this:  Am I correct that before Pauk and during Pauk battalions from

20     the 11th Corps were being sent on a monthly basis to assist Abdic?

21        A.   No.  I'm not aware of that.

22        Q.   What about during Pauk?  Isn't it correct that battalions from

23     the 11th Corps were being sent during Pauk?

24        A.   The word "battalion" is exaggerated.  These may have been

25     individual groups of officers.  I don't know of a single battalion having

Page 16881

 1     come to the aid during Pauk.

 2        Q.   Smaller military units then.  Are you aware of military units

 3     being sent?  Let's stick with that.  If you're not, you're not.  I mean,

 4     I don't want to detain you if you don't know something.

 5        A.   I don't know about that.

 6        Q.   I'm going to return to a subject, but it looks, because you don't

 7     know this subject, as though I'm actually going to finish on time.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  May I take instructions, Your Honour?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll give you an opportunity to add something after

13     we've heard from Mr. Jordash.

14             Mr. Jordash.

15             MR. JORDASH:  If I can ask a few more questions, not many, I

16     think I'll --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Then perhaps we first give an opportunity to the witness to add

19     something to, I take it, one of your previous answers.

20             Please add whatever you'd like to add.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As discussed yesterday,

22     Milorad Ulemek, Legija, came along with a group to Pauk.  He had been at

23     the centre in Erdut.  The Skorpions, too, appeared for the Pauk

24     operation, but for a couple of days only, before they returned to

25     Slavonia.  If these are the units you meant, then I can confirm that.

Page 16882

 1     But there were no battalions coming from the 11th Corps.

 2             MR. JORDASH:

 3        Q.   I think we'll have to disagree on that, Mr. Draca.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no reason to express agreement or

 5     disagreement --

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.  Sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with the witness, Mr. Jordash.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put your next question to the witness.

10             MR. JORDASH:

11        Q.   Could you briefly explain what the role of --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I see that we were "[Overlapping

13     speakers] ..."  Not saying who overlapped who, but I'd like to have this

14     clearly on the record:

15             I said there's no reason to express agreement or disagreement

16     with the witness, and apparently you agreed.  And I invited you to put

17     your next question to the witness.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. JORDASH:

20        Q.   You say there were no battalions coming from the 11th Corps, and

21     you've told us that the group led by Ulemek and also the Skorpions did go

22     to Pauk.  Were they sent by the 11th Corps?

23        A.   That's right.  At the proposal of Deputy Defence Minister

24     Milanovic, that I've mentioned.

25        Q.   Were any smaller units sent, do you know, by the 11th Corps at

Page 16883

 1     any point to assist in the Bihac operations?

 2        A.   I don't know about it, truly.  There may have been, without my

 3     knowledge.

 4        Q.   Do you know the role of the 21st, the 17th, and the 39th Corps in

 5     the Bihac operations?

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I ask which period you're

 8     referring to?  Because there were several operations around Bihac in the

 9     span of four years.

10             MR. JORDASH:

11        Q.   Well, let's stay with, first of all, with pre-Pauk 1994.  Do you

12     know if those corps had a role to play in the operations to assist

13     Fikret Abdic?

14        A.   Their role was to tie up forces of the 5th Corps towards Bihac so

15     that they may not have extensive forces in the direction of Kladusa to

16     mount resistance to Abdic's forces.  Now, which elements of the corps

17     were sent to the Bihac region or which units were sent from within that

18     corps, I truly don't know.

19        Q.   Do you know whether they continued to have a role in Pauk?  And

20     if so, what was the role?

21        A.   Yes.  Until the end of the operation, they engaged in combat in

22     the direction of Bihac.  That was their basic role.  Perhaps it would be

23     important to say that the military and state leadership of the RSK was of

24     the view that they should not enter that territory, but engage in combat

25     along the boundaries merely to tie up the forces of the corps.

Page 16884

 1             The same thing was agreed with the VRS, who did the same thing at

 2     their end of that region.

 3        Q.   And the VRS did it with their special brigade of the MUP Srpska;

 4     is that correct?

 5        A.   In part with them too.

 6        Q.   Now I want to just ask you about two documents --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  If Your Honours allow.

 8        Q.   -- very quickly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  These are the last ones?

10             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have, please, on the screen 1D05293.

13     English page 48, B/C/S 46, ERN 0-- sorry, B/C/S 47.  ERN 0415-1185.

14        Q.   And these are intercepts, or summaries of intercepted

15     conversations.  And I want to ask you about two of them.

16             MR. JORDASH:  English page 48 and B/C/S 47.  ERN 0415-1185.

17        Q.   It's 25th of August, 1995:

18             "Today at 4.00 p.m. in Ilok the commander of the 11th Corps,

19     General Dusan Loncar, will meet the General Bora Ivanovic, the

20     co-ordinator between Yugoslavia army and the 11th Corps of SVK.  The

21     topic of the meeting is not known."

22             Are you able to confirm that that was the role of Ivanovic?

23        A.   No.  Unfortunately I can't confirm that because I don't know

24     about it.

25        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Let's go to one more.

Page 16885

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Document -- same 65 ter, English page 49, B/C/S 48,

 2     ERN 0415-1258.

 3        Q.   This intercept relates to the document which we started to look

 4     at, and it notes from discussions of Obrad Stevanovic (MUP Serbia) who is

 5     in command of the 11th Corps, we learn that two divisions of active

 6     police officers (special police officers) have been sent from Serbia to

 7     occupied territory today on the 21st of October, 1995."

 8             Do you know anything about that, or Obrad Stevanovic's role?

 9        A.   No, I don't know much about it.  By that time Knin had fallen and

10     the RSK was destroyed.  I was no longer involved in that job.  So I

11     wasn't in a position to be privy to details surrounding these meetings.

12             MR. JORDASH:  No further questions.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Jordash, it's only a couple of minutes ago that I said there

17     would be no need to express disagreement with the witness.  Unless, of

18     course - and that's not what I thought you were doing, but I might be

19     wrong - that you were eliciting evidence in support of your own case and

20     that you were about - apart from disagreeing with the witness - to put to

21     the witness what your case is so as to give him an opportunity to explain

22     himself.

23             I didn't gain that impression for two reasons:  First, because

24     the witness spontaneously asked to add something, so it was not

25     specifically perhaps on a question you put to him.  And the second is

Page 16886

 1     that I gained the impression that you just wanted to say, "We disagree,"

 2     without that being a first step to put to the witness what your case was.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes, and we first -- I don't know if

 4     it's worth me saying what our case is on that, or ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I know that you're very precise on the

 6     Rule 90(H)(ii), so therefore I wanted -- when I stopped you at that

 7     moment, I don't know whether this is such a detail of your case or I

 8     don't know whether you seek to -- the witness to further explain.  It

 9     might be fair to the witness.  That's the only thing I can say.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Well, the witness has said that smaller units may

11     have been sent, he just doesn't know.  And it's our case that smaller

12     units or units of --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please address the witness if you ...

14             MR. JORDASH:

15        Q.   Well, just so you know, Mr. Witness, that we suggest that units

16     were being sent from the 11th Corps on a fairly regular basis.  Now,

17     whether they were the size of a battalion or smaller, we've not been able

18     to ascertain that, but we're saying that certain -- certainly units other

19     than Skorpions and other than Ulemek's Group were sent on a regular

20     basis.

21             You understand our position?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Does this trigger any addition to the answer

23     you gave earlier?  If not, we'll proceed.

24             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

Page 16887

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If I can add, just briefly,

 2     that the size of a battalion is over 500 men.  And perhaps that's the

 3     point which added to the confusion.  It is quite possible that smaller

 4     units did come, but I wasn't aware of it.  And besides, I added that I

 5     wasn't a military expert.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  Can I ask one further question?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Just this:

 9        Q.   You and I have never met, have we?  Or you've never met anyone

10     from the Stanisic Defence team.

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, are you ready?

15             I would have one question to the witness.  And I sometimes put

16     them to the witness in order not to lose the context in which the

17     previous questions were asked.

18             Mr. Draca, Mr. Jordash took you to document P1289, which

19     describes the whole situation with the 5th Corps and Bihac and the

20     admirable initiative to -- to -- to put it under protection.

21             You remember that document and the issues discussed in that

22     document?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was the document which was shown to you

25     prior to the letter by Mr. Abdic to -- to New York.  That's -- it's

Page 16888

 1     clear.

 2             Now, was there any role for Mr. Stanisic to be played in that

 3     ongoing -- these ongoing events?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me say that the top leadership

 5     of the Republic of Serbia, yes.  That was our estimate.  We saw Serbia as

 6     the guarantor of the agreement signed between the Republic of the Serbian

 7     Krajina and Republika Srpska.

 8             When we look at the problem more generally and in relation to the

 9     international community, the RSK leadership, having no other contacts,

10     was gravitating toward President Milosevic.  The Republic of Serbia at

11     the time was a recognised country.  It had its diplomacy.  And all of the

12     factors were conducive toward Belgrade.

13             Now, to what extent there were reactions from Belgrade and from

14     whom, that's something I don't know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:  "... having no other contacts, was

16     gravitating toward President Milosevic."

17             My question is: Was there any -- I do understand that

18     President Milosevic, being the head of the government, was interested --

19     was there any specific involvement of Mr. Stanisic?  So, next to

20     President Milosevic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're discussing the period up

22     until Operation Pauk and during that operation.  I don't know if

23     Mr. Stanisic was involved, save for the fact that we sent reports to the

24     top echelons of state security on refugees, et cetera, because we could

25     not approach Milosevic.

Page 16889

 1             So we did inform the State Security Service of both

 2     Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbia on the situation in Kladusa.

 3     Now, as to whether Mr. Stanisic received any tasks relating to these

 4     issues from President Milosevic, that's something I don't know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you this question because the document

 6     that was shown to you - that was P1289, the document with the "admirable

 7     initiative" - was delivered to the president of the Republic of Serbia

 8     but specifically also delivered to the MUP and, further specifications,

 9     Jovica Stanisic.  Whereas, I do not see any reference to the

10     State Security Services of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina.  That's

11     the reason why I put this question to you, whether -- what explains that

12     the MUP in the person of Mr. Stanisic is specifically mentioned as one of

13     the entities or persons the report of Major-General Borislav Djukic

14     should be delivered to.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the document before me

16     right now.  If I remember correctly, it was a dispatch.  Under those

17     circumstances, nobody would send them to us, and I mean from the army.

18             As for the fact that Mr. Stanisic was addressed there, was among

19     the addressees, I said that the same was done by the army command when it

20     came to the Kladusa area, that they would inform those in charge of state

21     security of the events in the area.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Farr, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

24             MR. FARR:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.  And I'm looking at the clock.


Page 16890

 1     We'll start with the first eight minutes, until we take a break.

 2             Please proceed.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Farr:

 4        Q.   Sir, the first thing I'd like to ask you about is armed units of

 5     the SAO Krajina DB.

 6             Did the SAO Krajina DB ever have any armed formations or groups

 7     of its own?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   You were not aware of any -- of the SDB ever training its own

10     strike and sabotage groups; is that correct?

11        A.   As far as I know, the SDB of Krajina did not have such units.

12        Q.   I'd also like to ask you about armed forces of the DB of the

13     Republic of Serbia operating in the RSK.

14             Did you ever come across any information indicating that the

15     State Security Department of the MUP of Serbia controlled any armed

16     forces inside the RSK?

17        A.   I don't have information to that effect.  Although the frequent

18     subject of discussions were various groups introducing themselves, and

19     Martic at some point did say that these people should be talked to so

20     that we could establish whether they were really members of the DB of the

21     Republic of Serbia.  We thought it unacceptable that they should be

22     present in our area without us knowing about it.

23             In the main, we would establish that this was just propaganda.  I

24     don't have of any such units present in the RSK, save for a group of

25     armed people arriving for the purposes of Operation Pauk and providing

Page 16891

 1     security to the convoy.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 52, line 9, the

 4     witness did also characterise what sort of propaganda it was.  I don't

 5     want to say anything further lest I should suggest that to the witness.

 6     But it's not complete.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Did you qualify the propaganda, Mr. Draca?  Could you please

 9     repeat what kind of propaganda it was.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First we should bear in mind it was

11     war time and there was general confusion.  There were groups, including

12     criminal groups --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm going to stop you there.  There is an issue

14     about your answer perhaps not having been completely translated.  So I'd

15     like you to repeat the word you used in the context of propaganda.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fact is that they falsely

17     introduced themselves or falsely represented themselves as members of the

18     DB of Serbia so that they would not incur any sanctions.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  So that they would

20     not be mobilised.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the most

23     expedient way would be to re-hear the whole portion and have corrections

24     made, rather than waste time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually I leave it to the witness first and I try to

Page 16892

 1     do my utmost best.

 2             What apparently did you hear the witness say in relation to

 3     propaganda?

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that it was for

 5     self-promotion.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Now, I leave it to the parties whether they consider it of such

 8     importance to have this all verified, whether it's self-promoting

 9     propaganda or just propaganda, I leave that at this moment to the

10     parties.

11             Mr. Farr, you may proceed.

12             MR. FARR:

13        Q.   I think you mentioned that -- going back to these allegations of

14     paramilitary forces sent by the Serbian DB - you said that Martic said

15     you should look into this, and then you indicated that you concluded

16     that -- that these weren't true.  Was Martic -- was Martic satisfied with

17     those conclusions that these were not members of paramilitary formations

18     sent by the Serbian DB?

19        A.   Precisely so, yes.  He was satisfied.  We did file criminal

20     reports against some of these.

21        Q.   Okay.  During your examination by Mr. Jordash, you told us that

22     you were a member of the Supreme Defence Council of the Republika Srpska

23     Krajina.  Can you tell us who else were members of that Supreme Defence

24     Council?

25        A.   The president of the Republic, prime minister, commander of the

Page 16893

 1     Main Staff, minister of the Interior, Speaker of the Assembly of the

 2     parliament of the republic, minister of the interior and his two

 3     assistants for public and state security.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take this answer as a link again to

 5     P1289, those to whom this report was addressed, we find both the

 6     president of the republic and the prime minister.  And since the witness

 7     used exactly the same words, but at the bottom of P1289, it is two times

 8     the same text with the same translation, rather than making a difference

 9     between the -- I think it's "predsednik," simple, or "predsednik vlade,"

10     and the witness used exactly these same two words, which are, at the

11     bottom of P1289, not translated accordingly to what we now here as the

12     difference between the president of the republic and the prime minister.

13             Could you please review the translation of P1289 in this respect.

14             You may proceed.  No, perhaps I interrupt you.  Perhaps we first

15     take a break.

16             We resume at 12.30.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr, you may proceed.

20             And could you please finish in an hour from now, because I have a

21     few procedural matters to raise.  Even let's finish at 12.30 [sic] so

22     that I can deal with the procedural matters.

23             MR. FARR:  At 1.30; correct, Your Honour?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 1.30.

25             MR. FARR:

Page 16894

 1        Q.   Sir, just before the break we were talking about the membership,

 2     the SDC, and you indicated that the commander of the Main Staff was one

 3     of the members.  That's the commander of the Main Staff of the SVK;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   You also said the minister of the interior and his two assistants

 7     for public and state security.  The two assistant ministers were

 8     Rade Kostic and Ilija Kojic; is that correct?

 9        A.   No.  I was the assistant for state security, and Nebojsa Pavkovic

10     was in for public security.

11        Q.   Is it correct that the assistant ministers of the interior for

12     the RSK were Rade Kostic and Ilija Kojic?  Is that correct?

13        A.   That is correct.  They were assistants for the eastern Baranja

14     sector.

15        Q.   Were you yourself an assistant minister, or no?

16        A.   Yes.  The status also included, or implied, the post of assistant

17     minister of the interior.

18        Q.   And the president of the republic was Milan Martic; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Can you just tell us in two or three sentences what the function

21     of the SDC of the RSK was?

22        A.   The exchange of information for the political leadership by the

23     Ministry of the Interior and the army and the orders and instructions of

24     the political leadership towards the army and the military, not only

25     them, but towards all segments of the society in the RSK, as well as the

Page 16895

 1     adoption of all important decisions.  No decisions could be made without

 2     the Supreme Defence Council.

 3        Q.   Is it fair to say that it essentially amounted to co-operation

 4     between political and military officials regarding security and military

 5     affairs?

 6        A.   Yes.  Correct.

 7        Q.   And during what period were you a member of the SDC?

 8        A.   In the period from the spring of 1994 until 1995; August 1995.

 9        Q.   And did that coincide with your -- the period during which you

10     were the head of the RSK DB?

11        A.   Not the entire period.  I was at the head of the RSK state

12     security from June, and --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down

14     and to repeat his answer.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you, first of all, slow down.  And, second,

16     could you repeat your answer.  What is on the record now is that you

17     said:  "Not the entire period.  I was at the head of the RSK state

18     security from June ..."

19             And could you repeat from what you said then.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From June 1993.  And then, at the

21     proposal of the president of the republic, from May 1994, they added two

22     new members as assistant members, the chief of the public security

23     service and the State Security Service to the Supreme Defence Council, in

24     order to be able to report to the leadership about the

25     intelligence/security situation and the situation in the field.

Page 16896

 1             MR. FARR:

 2        Q.   Now, going back to the question of the chief of the public

 3     security service and the State Security Service, is it correct that there

 4     was one chief of the State Security Service for the Knin area and another

 5     one for the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem area?

 6        A.   No.  I don't know how it was in 1991, while Dusan Orlovic was the

 7     head of the State Security Service in Knin, but since the new service was

 8     established in August 1992 onwards, there was one chief for the whole

 9     area.

10             But I have to add, here, that the area of Slavonia and Baranja

11     was very specific, and frequently there were political conflicts with

12     the -- some politicians from Knin.  So they had their deputies in all the

13     ministries in order to avoid political conflicts.  So they were

14     frequently permitted to make decisions, bypassing the government of the

15     Krajina.

16        Q.   Okay.  Yesterday you talked about a meeting on the

17     3rd of September, 1993, and we saw some pictures from it as well.  That's

18     the meeting that both you and Captain Dragan attended.  Was that an SDC

19     meeting?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   I'll just read what you said about that meeting.  You said:

22             "The meeting was held in early September.  It's a meeting that

23     was held every three months or so.  It was a briefing for the prime

24     minister, which included all the factors of security in the territory of

25     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, senior officers, the minister, the

Page 16897

 1     assistants for internal affairs, civilian protection, and everything that

 2     had to do with security organs in the RSK area.  Usually it would last

 3     all day --"

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also slow down.

 5             MR. FARR:

 6        Q.   "Everybody would submit their reports to the prime minister, and

 7     this is where the directives were given.  The government would issue

 8     directives for future work."

 9             And that's page 16796 of the transcript.

10             You said these meetings were held every three months or so.  Did

11     they have any particular name?

12        A.   No, they didn't have any particular name.  We referred to them as

13     briefings.  The instructions given by the government at such occasions

14     had more to do with some political forecasts.  And generally, if there

15     was a meeting of the SDC, that was a much smaller body, and the outcome

16     of the meeting would be confidential.

17             At this meeting that we saw footage of, we would always go with a

18     large number of lower-ranking officers so that at those meetings where

19     reports were submitted at these briefings, sometimes more than 50 people

20     would take part in -- in the meeting.

21        Q.   You said that the assistants for internal affairs attended those

22     meetings.  Who were those people?

23        A.   The Ministry of the Interior had a number of assistants and

24     chiefs of administrations.  I don't know if I should refer to all of them

25     by name or ...

Page 16898

 1        Q.   It would probably be sufficient if you could just tell me whether

 2     either Ilija Kojic or Rade Kostic attended.

 3        A.   No, they did not attend.  I cannot remember if they ever attended

 4     any briefings like that.  Simply because it's a little bit too far for

 5     them to get organised and to come to that meeting.  That was the only

 6     reason.

 7             The one that we saw the film footage of was a meeting that they

 8     did not attend.

 9        Q.   All right.  I'd now like to turn to your relationship with the DB

10     of Serbia during your time as the deputy head and the head of the RSK DB.

11             And can we just start -- to begin with, can you tell us what

12     dates exactly you were the deputy head?  It started in August 1992, if I

13     understood you.  Until what point were you deputy head?

14        A.   I was a deputy until the 23rd of June, 1993.  After that date

15     until the fall of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina I was the chief of

16     the sector, the service.

17        Q.   And in your evidence yesterday you indicated that you shared some

18     intelligence information with the 2nd Administration of the SDB of

19     Serbia.  Would that take the form of written reports or oral

20     communication or both?

21        A.   In this way and that way and with all the departments.  And it

22     would depend on the text or the information.

23        Q.   In terms of written reports, to which administration would you

24     say you sent the majority of your written reports?  Or can you even say?

25     Was it approximately equal, or was there one administration that you sent

Page 16899

 1     more reports to?

 2   A. Well, it's hard to say right now which ones were more numerous. If there

 3     was some security matters that needed to be checked, that would be sent

 4    to the 1st Administration.  The 2nd Administration of the RDB of Serbia,

 5    which was in charge of cross-border issues, we would send them information

 6     about the situation in the area of Krajina, about the movements of some

 7     troops, or the international community.  What we felt would be important

 8     information to be reported to the Serbian state leadership, that was the

 9     sort of information that we would send solely to the 2nd Administration.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We receive no interpretation at this moment.  At

13     least I do not.

14             And could you please repeat what you just raised, Mr. Petrovic.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first four words

16     in line 13 on page 60, it was not understood what the witness said, so

17     perhaps this could lead to a wrong conclusion being drawn.  So perhaps it

18     would be best to clarify that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll try to clarify.

20             Witness, you said:

21             "If there was some security matters that needed to be checked,

22     that would ..."

23             And what did you then say about the 1st Administration?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that this kind of

25     information was sent to the 1st Administration.

Page 16900

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid, no.

 2     Since we did not clarify the situation since this refers to what we're

 3     talking about, line 12 -- is in line 12 and the work of the

 4     2nd Administration that is -- is in charge of the question of borders.

 5     That is what it states here.  At least that's how I understand it.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, I have

 7     that -- I have that on a different line.

 8             But when you told us about the 2nd Administration, what was the

 9     2nd Administration in charge of?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mention the border.  I

11     said "zagranicni rad," meaning cross-border information compiling all

12     kinds of intelligence and data that refers to the area across or outside

13     of the borders of the Republic of Serbia.  So this is a

14     counter-intelligence function, not an intelligence function.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] This is now clear, Your Honour.

17     Thank you.

18             MR. FARR:

19        Q.   And in addition to sending written reports to the Serbian DB, I

20     assume you also sent written reports to your own government, the RSK

21     government; correct?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   Focussing on the 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB in

24     particular:  Did you send more reports to your own government - to the

25     RSK government, that is - or to the 2nd Administration of the DB of

Page 16901

 1     Serbia?

 2        A.   We sent an immeasurably larger number of reports to the

 3     government.  When I say the "government," I mean the president of the

 4     republic.  We were obliged on a daily basis to make a cross-analysis of

 5     all the political events, and these reports were issued daily.  Then

 6     there were weekly separate reports, which were a compilation of all of

 7     this information.  We did not have such a voluminous contact with the

 8     2nd Administration.

 9        Q.   Can you estimate approximately how many reports you would send to

10     the 2nd Administration in a day, a week, a month?  Whatever period is

11     convenient for you.

12        A.   In January 1993 it was not very large, but with the maturity and

13     growth of our service, I think that by 1995 we could say that it would be

14     one or two reports or requests from us to them per week.

15             It would all depend on the work.  Sometimes two weeks would pass

16     without us sending anything.  But let's say that that was the number.

17        Q.   And I assume you also sent written reports to the SVK; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Did you ever send reports personally to Jovica Stanisic?

21        A.   Yes.  There were reports that were directly addressed to

22     Jovica Stanisic but a very few of them.

23        Q.   What did they concern?

24        A.   Mostly it was about the situation around Velika Kladusa and

25     Fikret Abdic.  Perhaps there was some other information that had to do --

Page 16902

 1     well, mostly the communications towards Mr. Stanisic would be occurring

 2     during preparations for international conferences or initiatives for

 3     peace agreements; whereas, part of -- or in order to prepare for such

 4     conferences, we would inform the Serbian state security leadership about

 5     security and international forces.

 6        Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Stanisic would have received most of the

 7     reports you sent to the 2nd Administration as well?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  I really -- I couldn't know that.

 9        Q.   Would the normal procedure in a security service of the kind that

10     you worked in be to forward the most important points from reports

11     received to the head of the -- the service?

12        A.   Yes.  The procedure is such.  In between is the analysis

13     administration which would then make an assessment what would need to be

14     done and whether the report would need to be sent on.

15        Q.   And after you sent these reports to the 2nd Administration and to

16     the Serbian DB in general, they would then send the information on to

17     whomever needed it.  In other words, if you sent them something -- if you

18     sent them something that the VJ needed, they would send it to the VJ; if

19     they -- if you sent them something that President Milosevic needed, they

20     would send it to President Milosevic.  Is that correct?

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you permit me, I

22     think that the testimony of this witness is being characterised

23     erroneously.  He's not talking about reports only or only about the

24     2nd Administration.  This is clear from the things he stated today and

25     yesterday; thus the communication did not proceed in the way that my

Page 16903

 1     learned colleague explains in his question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  May I also add to that what Mr. Farr was keen to

 4     establish before, which was foundation.  We move from sending reports to

 5     the DB and the witness not knowing what happened to them to a presumption

 6     that the witness knew that they were going to the VJ, and so on.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Farr.

 8             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, that was a question, not a presumption.

 9     I was seeking to get the witness's knowledge of that.

10             With respect to the issue of foundation, I think this witness has

11     testified about a great deal of things for which there were no obvious

12     foundation.  He's been presented as a witness with -- [Overlapping

13     speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would say --

15             MR. FARR:  -- almost a universal knowledge of the workings of the

16     security services in both Serbia and the other Serb entities elsewhere.

17     I'm happy to ask him if he knows and if so how he knows, but I don't

18     think that would be consistent with what happened on direct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You complained a couple of times about lack of

20     foundation, I think, and I granted most of these objections or at least I

21     suggested a reformulation.  So for that reason, if only for that reason,

22     you're invited to follow the suggestion and make a clear distinction

23     between what you put to the witness and what you ask the witness.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. FARR:

Page 16904

 1        Q.   Sir, do you know what the Serbian DB would do with the

 2     information you provided to the 2nd Administration in written reports

 3     after they received that information?  And if so, can you tell us how you

 4     know that.

 5        A.   As an employee of the State Security Service, I know the

 6     procedure of sending reports, receiving reports, and passing reports on.

 7     That is why I said before that there is an analytical or an analysis

 8     administration which would assess whether a particular piece of

 9     information was topical and important enough to be sent to the deputies

10     or to the chief of the service.  I don't know how they went.  They did

11     not report back to us, nor is that in the nature of the service's work,

12     to inform us about what happened to the information.

13             What you asked about Yugoslavia, we did send the information on

14     from time to time, but it went through the command of the Main Staff.  We

15     also would send information directly to the public security service, and

16     that did not go via the DB, but we would address our requests sometimes

17     directly to the public security service.

18        Q.   And, sir, you yourself worked in the Serbian DB from the

19     1st of September of 1995 until the 31st of March, 2007, either in the

20     Serbian DB or in its successor BIA; correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And it was the policy of the Serbian DB to provide security

23     information to whatever relevant organs of the Republic of Serbia needed

24     that information; correct?

25        A.   Correct.  Besides, that's how all the services in the world work.

Page 16905

 1        Q.   And as an example of that:  If something had military

 2     significance, it would be provided to the army; correct?

 3        A.   Well, to this day, after so many years of experience, I don't

 4     know how the BIA director or -- this thing called external information

 5     flow.  Who that reaches, I don't know.  But I suppose if there is a

 6     matter of urgency or a military matter, then the army would be notified

 7     of it.  Unless the military service had got hold of the information

 8     first.

 9        Q.   And when you were chief of the RSK DB, you would, of course,

10     provide all militarily significant information to the Main Staff of the

11     SVK; correct?

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   Now, you've given us some examples of the things that you would

14     have reported on to the 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB.  Did you

15     also report to the Serbian DB about internal political conflicts or

16     struggles in the RSK?

17        A.   Occasionally, yes.  Not in very many cases though.  But in those

18     instances where it could impact on the peace plan or any sort of peace

19     initiative.  Oftentimes internal political jostling led to failed

20     political initiatives arriving from, say, President Milosevic.

21        Q.   And is it correct that one of the reasons for informing the DB of

22     Serbia about these internal political conflicts was so the DB of Serbia

23     or other Serbian authorities could intervene and mediate those conflicts?

24        A.   Again, I' not able to answer the question because my role was

25     simply to brief or give proposals.  And in certain instances I might have

Page 16906

 1     said that it would be useful for President Milosevic to become involved

 2     to make sure that a peace initiative went through, but I'm not sure if

 3     that was indeed what transpired.

 4        Q.   When you personally sent reports to the Serbian DB, did you ever

 5     do it with the hope or desire that it would cause Serbian authorities to

 6     intervene in the political -- internal politics of the Krajina in order

 7     to cause the Krajina government to function in the way you thought it

 8     should function?

 9        A.   That's right.  But in most of the cases it didn't have to do with

10     the internal workings.  Rather, with an international problem that

11     emerged as a result of an internal political conflict.  As an ordinary

12     citizen, I wanted there to be peace.  I knew that.  And I used to, in

13     such circumstances, put forth such proposals because I knew that

14     President Milosevic was the individual who carried the most authority

15     vis-à-vis the RSK and the politicians who were actively involved.  I

16     thought it positive and desirable for President Milosevic to intervene

17     with them.  But I was never in a position to openly ask for such a thing.

18        Q.   You just said:

19             "I thought it was positive and desirable for President Milosevic

20     to intervene with them."

21             Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that your

22     expectation must have been that your report would go from you to the

23     Serbian DB, from the Serbian DB to Mr. Milosevic, and Mr. Milosevic would

24     then intervene in the affairs of the Krajina, in your view, for the

25     better; is that correct?

Page 16907

 1        A.   I doubt that a report of mine in that format would ever have been

 2     taken to President Milosevic.  But I do presume that, otherwise, the man

 3     would have been informed of all these events.

 4        Q.   Right.  It would have been the information in your report, rather

 5     than the report itself; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So we've talked about reports that you sent to the DB of

 8     Serbia.  Did the DB of Serbia also send written reports or other written

 9     communications to you?

10        A.   Yes.  Occasionally we did receive them.

11        Q.   And, similarly, you would forward that information to whomever

12     you thought needed it in the RSK authorities; correct?

13        A.   We didn't receive reports about internal political matters of

14     Serbia.  The reports that the Serbian DB sent to us in Knin had to do

15     with specific developments that they would draw our attention to.  It was

16     a wide range of issues.  I don't know how far you would want me to

17     explain it to you.

18             I didn't need to inform the president of the republic of them or

19     anything of that sort.  Those were issues that related to the service.

20        Q.   Were some of them military matters?

21        A.   No, never.

22        Q.   So the Serbian DB never sent you a written communication

23     regarding military matters that might be relevant for the SVK; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   No.  I had never received a report that would relate to anything


Page 16908

 1     connected with the SVK.

 2        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of anyone in your service ever

 3     receiving information from the Serbian DB and forwarding it to the SVK?

 4        A.   I don't remember anything of that sort.

 5             MR. FARR:  Your Honours, could we please move briefly into

 6     private session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16909











11 Pages 16909-16910 redacted. Private session.
















Page 16911

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             MR. FARR:

15        Q.   Sir, what about a man named Slobodan Jarcevic.  Was he the

16     foreign affairs advisor to President Martic in July of 1995, June and

17     July of 1995.

18        A.   He was the minister of foreign affairs in the government of the

19     RSK.

20        Q.   And his office was in Belgrade; correct?

21        A.   He had an office in Knin as well.  And he had an office as part

22     of the RSK bureau in Belgrade.  I don't know if he had any other offices.

23        Q.   You'd testified yesterday that a man named Bosko Drazic was the

24     head of the Benkovac Police Department during a certain period.  Isn't it

25     correct that he later became the chief of the special units of the


Page 16912

 1     RSK MUP?

 2        A.   I am not sure if he was there for the entire RSK in that period.

 3     I know that the last year he spent in the Golubic training centre.  He

 4     was one of the lecturers there.

 5        Q.   Do you know whether he ever had the title or job function as

 6     chief of special units?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that the

 9     description of the place where the person worked wasn't accurately

10     recorded, and what the person did there, if that could be repeated.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your description of the

12     place where Mr. Drazic was working, and --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He worked as a lecturer at the

14     school of -- at the police force school in the place called Golubic near

15     Knin.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, does that clarify the issue?

17             Then I have -- Mr. Farr, could you please have a look at the

18     transcript and compare page 71, upon a joint arrival and the name

19     mentioned there, and compare that with your question in page 72, the

20     first or the second line.

21             You see the point?

22             MR. FARR:  I do see.  You're referring to page 71, line 23

23     versus --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then the --

25             MR. FARR: [Overlapping speakers] ...


Page 16913

 1             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... answer given in 24 and

 2     then your question in second line of page 72.  That is confusing.

 3             MR. FARR:  Yes.  Could we return into private session,

 4     Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             We return into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16914

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

11             MR. FARR:

12        Q.   Sir, going back to my question about Bosko Drazic.  Did you ever

13     know him to have the title or job function "chief the special units of

14     the RSK" or "chief of special units"?  Was that ever his job function or

15     title, as far as you know?

16        A.   It is a policeman who was a member of the special forces of the

17     MUP of the Republic of -- of the Socialist Republic of Croatia up until

18     1991.  It is quite possible that once the chief of the SUP in Benkovac

19     was replaced he held the position that you mentioned.  But I can't

20     remember, really, because in -- I wasn't in Knin in that period of time.

21     It has to do with public security affairs, so I can't really remember if

22     he held that post.  But he was working for the MUP until the end, until

23     1995.

24        Q.   And you also knew a man named Goran Opacic, who was a colleague

25     of yours at the Benkovac Police Station; correct?


Page 16915

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   You also testified either -- well, you testified at some point

 3     about a group called the Serbian National Council which later became the

 4     Serbian Defence Council.  It's correct that Milan Martic was a member of

 5     this council, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes, he was.

 7        Q.   And what about Milan Babic?

 8        A.   He was the president -- or the chairman of the Serbian National

 9     Council; that's what I mean.

10        Q.   And what about Milenko Zelenbaba, who was the Knin SJB chief?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   And, sir, just so the record is clear:  It's correct that he was

13     also a member of the Serbian National Council; do you agree?

14        A.   I apologise, I didn't understand your question right away.  I

15     don't know if he was a member of the Serbian National Council.  Though it

16     is possible ex officio that he would have been.  He had Milan Martic as a

17     member there, who was at the head of the Knin SUP at the time, so I don't

18     know if Zelenbaba was there with him.

19        Q.   Do you know when the Serbian National Council became the Serbian

20     Defence Council?

21        A.   I think it was between 1990 and 1991.  I don't know which period

22     exactly.

23             MR. FARR:  Your Honour, I'd be moving to a new topic at this

24     point.  I can either begin it briefly ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we already adjourn for the day so that I


Page 16916

 1     have sufficient time to deal with procedural matters.

 2             Mr. Draca, while it may have been clear to you already earlier

 3     that we would not be able to conclude your testimony this week because

 4     we're not sitting on Friday, which means that we'll resume next week, and

 5     that will be on the 7th of February at 9.00 in the morning.

 6             I again instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in

 7     any other way with whomever about your testimony, whether this week

 8     already given or still to be given next week, and we'd like to see you

 9     back next Tuesday at 9.00 in the morning in this same courtroom.

10             Could I invite you to follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'd like to do is to deliver two oral decisions

13     and then briefly scheduling for the upcoming weeks.

14             And I start with a Prosecution request to tender excerpts of the

15     accused's suspect interviews.  So I will deliver the Chamber's decision

16     on the -- this request, that is, the Prosecution's request to tender

17     excerpts of both of the accused's suspect interviews.

18             On the 15th of November, 2011, the Prosecution orally bar tabled

19     two excerpts of the accused's suspect interviews relating to the

20     UN hostages crisis.  The Defence objected to this request.

21             On the 25th of November, 2011, the Prosecution amended its

22     request through its first submissions, requesting the excerpts' admission

23     specifically as rebuttal evidence.

24             On the 1st of December, 2011, through an informal communication,

25     the Simatovic Defence notified the parties and the Trial Chamber that it


Page 16917

 1     would not make any further submissions on this matter.

 2             On the 2nd of December, the Stanisic Defence responded to the

 3     Prosecution's submission, opposing admission of the excerpts.

 4             On the 9th of December, 2011, the Prosecution requested leave to

 5     reply to the Stanisic response, annexing its reply to the filing.

 6             The Chamber granted the Prosecution leave to rely on the

 7     13th of December, 2011, and this was done through an informal

 8     communication.

 9             The Prosecution submits that the interview excerpts are proper

10     rebuttal evidence arising directly out of Defence evidence which could

11     not have been reasonably anticipated.  According to the Prosecution, the

12     excerpts are relevant to counter the Stanisic Defence's case that

13     Stanisic acted for humanitarian reasons during the UN hostages crisis,

14     thereby seemingly rebutting the Prosecution's theory of Stanisic's

15     mens rea in relation to the crimes charged in the indictment.

16             The Stanisic Defence opposes the admission of the excerpts,

17     arguing that it violates the standard sequencing order of presenting

18     evidence pursuant to Rule 85(A) of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and

19     Evidence, herein after to be referred to as "Rules."  Moreover, it argues

20     that the proffered evidence does not meet the high rebuttal threshold.

21             According to Rule 85(A) of the Rules, rebuttal evidence may be

22     presented after the presentation of the Defence case, unless otherwise

23     directed by the Chamber, in the interests of justice.

24             The Appeals Chamber has held that rebuttal evidence must relate

25     to a significant issue arising directly out of Defence evidence which

Page 16918

 1     could not reasonably have been anticipated.  This comes from the

 2     Delalic et al. Judgement of the 20th of February, 2001.

 3             The Chamber notes that the presentation of rebuttal evidence at

 4     this stage of the proceedings varies from the general sequence of the

 5     presentation of evidence as provided in Rule 85(A) of the Rules.  In the

 6     present case, the proposed rebuttal evidence consists of 13 pages of

 7     documentary evidence.  Further, the excerpts the Prosecution seeks to

 8     tender are closely connected to the testimony of Witness Helgers and

 9     other evidence received by the Chamber.

10             Also, the Chamber considers that early notice or admission of

11     proffered rebuttal evidence does not prejudice the Defence.  The earlier

12     rebuttal evidence can be submitted to contextualise or counter Defence

13     evidence, the more stream-lined and focussed will the proceedings be.

14     While the Chamber notes that the proffered evidence could more

15     appropriately have been tendered during the cross-examination of a

16     Defence witness - and I refer the parties to the Chamber's guidance on

17     such tendering issued on the 26th of August of 2011 - under the present

18     circumstances, the Chamber finds it to be in the interests of justice to

19     consider the proffered evidence submission at this stage of the

20     proceedings.

21             The Chamber considers that the proffered evidence relates to the

22     issue of the Accused Stanisic's behaviour during the indictment period.

23     The Chamber finds that this is a significant issue for the purpose of

24     admission as rebuttal evidence.

25             However, the Chamber considers that the Stanisic's Defence

Page 16919

 1     pre-trial brief devotes several paragraphs on the role of the accused

 2     with respect to the release of the UN hostages.  In the brief, the

 3     Stanisic Defence noted the - and I quote - "undisputed fact that through

 4     the direct participation of the accused, the lives of more than

 5     300 UN peace keepers and the lives of two French pilots were saved during

 6     the course of the Balkan crisis in 1995."

 7             The Stanisic Defence then continues to argue that the accused's

 8     role in the release of these hostages rebuts the mens rea element

 9     required to establish criminal responsibility in the sense that the

10     accused's alleged intention to participate in and further the common

11     criminal purpose of a group and to contribute to the alleged joint

12     criminal enterprise is absent.

13             Accordingly, the Prosecution could have reasonably anticipated

14     that the Defence would use this argument and present evidence on this

15     matter in relation to challenging the accused's mens rea.

16             And for the foregoing reasons the Chamber denies the admission of

17     the excerpts of the suspect interviews as rebuttal evidence.

18             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

19             The next decision I would like to deliver on behalf of the

20     Chamber is a decision in which the Chamber addresses three requests by

21     the Republic of Serbia for protective measures, filed on the 9th and the

22     16th of January and the 1st of February, 2012.

23             The Chamber will first address Serbia's requests of the

24     9th of January, 2012.

25             On the 11th of November, 2011, the Chamber granted protective

Page 16920

 1     measures pursuant to Rule 54 bis of the Rules in relation to two

 2     witnesses' testimonies and Exhibits P971 through P974.  The Chamber

 3     granted redactions of information identifying three categories of persons

 4     mentioned in Exhibits P972 and P973, namely, the two witnesses in

 5     question, the sources of a government commission, and active BIA

 6     operatives.  The Chamber then invited Serbia to file a list of necessary

 7     redactions to these exhibits.

 8             On the 9th of January, 2012, Serbia submitted a filing as per the

 9     Chamber's decision.  In the filing, Serbia listed information identifying

10     commission sources and active BIA operatives and requested that this

11     information be redacted.

12             As the Chamber's 11th of November, 2011, decision already granted

13     these redactions, the Chamber now declares Serbia's request of the

14     9th of January of 2012 moot.

15             The Chamber will now address Serbia's filing of the

16     16th of January, 2012.

17             Serbia requested, in relation to 180 documents provided to the

18     Stanisic Defence, firstly, that if they are used in court, they be used

19     in provisional closed session; and, secondly, that if they are tendered

20     for admission into evidence, that they are placed provisionally under

21     seal.  Upon notification, Serbia would then provide a reasoned request

22     for protective measures.

23             On the 30th of January, 2012, the Prosecution responded that it

24     did not oppose Serbia's request.

25             As per ongoing practice in this case, the Chamber expects the

Page 16921

 1     parties to request provisional private session when using any documents

 2     in court which are subject to a pending request for protective measures,

 3     and to request, when tendering such documents, that they are placed

 4     provisionally under seal.  The Chamber instructs the parties to continue

 5     to apply this approach, including with regard to the 180 documents listed

 6     in Serbia's filing of the 16th of January, 2012.  The Chamber further

 7     instructs the parties to notify Serbia in case of the in-court use or

 8     tendering of any of these documents so that Serbia can file reasoned

 9     requests for protective measures.

10             The Prosecution has made several practical proposals with regard

11     to any such reasoned requests to be filed by Serbia.  The Chamber

12     approves of arrangements which improve the clarity of such requests and

13     make them simpler to process and review.  The Chamber encourages the

14     parties to liaise with Serbia in this respect.

15             The Chamber will now address Serbia's filing of the

16     1st of February, 2012.

17             In this filing, Serbia requested the same remedy as it requested

18     in its 16th of January, 2012, filing but in respect of a further

19     17 documents provided to the Stanisic Defence.

20             I'm now addressing the parties.  Having heard the Chamber's

21     decision on the request of the 16th of January, 2012, do the parties have

22     any additional submissions to make in request of the 1st of February,

23     2012, request specifically?

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, if I could consider that and get back

25     to you.

Page 16922

 1             MR. JORDASH:  May we do the same, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And ...

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We would also like to do the same,

 4     Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll further hear from the parties in relation

 6     to the 1st of February, 2012, request, whether there are any specific

 7     additional submissions to be made.

 8             And, therefore, this concludes the Chamber's decision on Serbia's

 9     requests of the 9th and the 16th of January, and not yet of the

10     1st of February, 2012.  And the Chamber instructs the Registry to inform

11     the Republic of Serbia of this decision.

12             Then, very briefly, last item on my agenda.  From the information

13     provided by the Simatovic Defence, the following witnesses are scheduled

14     to testify in court in February, and that is DFS-011, DFS-003, DFS-012,

15     and DFS-004.

16             With regard to the Stanisic Defence, the Chamber notes from an

17     informal communication yesterday, that it's highly unlikely that

18     Witness DST-071 will come to The Hague in time to testify next week.  The

19     Chamber requests the Simatovic and Stanisic Defence to provide

20     information about the scheduling of witnesses for the upcoming weeks,

21     including the approximate dates the witnesses are expected to testify in

22     court.

23             I don't know whether you have discussed the matter already,

24     Mr. Petrovic, where you can provide, to start with, for next week whether

25     you have a witness available.

Page 16923

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from what I know at

 2     this time, is that DFS-011 should arrive here on Sunday and testify once

 3     the current witness completes his testimony.  This is what I know.  This

 4     is what has been planned and agreed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you perhaps sit together with the

 6     Stanisic Defence also to discuss how to -- how to schedule your witnesses

 7     in view of the fact that Witness DST-071, of course --

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [No Interpretation]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  If I

11     may just say that -- and this is something that our Defence has stated a

12     number of times as well, and that is that we would like that all

13     witnesses of Mr. Stanisic, including this one, complete their testimony

14     as soon as possible.  So, if it's possible for the witness that we are

15     talking about, DST-071, if it's possible for him technically to come and

16     begin his testimony after the current witness completes his, that would

17     be good for us.  We would prefer that situation.  But, of course, that is

18     not in our hands.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we'll still have to wait for Witness Brown

20     as well, who is also to be scheduled.

21             MR. JORDASH:  Yes, that's right.

22             We are filing a motion, I think today, concerning the issue of

23     the way in which Mr. Brown will be able to use the originals of the

24     diaries, whether that's in court or in a clean room or at the forensic

25     lab, and Mr. Brown's position is that he needs Your Honours to see the

Page 16924

 1     originals and to see him point to the originals to be able to properly

 2     explain his -- his report.  So we're filing a motion that may affect the

 3     timing of his evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber will consider such a submission.

 5             Could, at least, apart from these technical aspects of who will

 6     wear gloves and where we are looking at matters or whether we are looking

 7     at copies or originals, could the parties sit together and see whether

 8     they could work out a scheme, a schedule, for the weeks to come?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  Absolutely.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, I take it that your silence is to be

11     understood as --

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.  Of

13     course.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Then we adjourn.  And we resume on Tuesday, the 7th of February,

16     at 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

19                           February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.