1 Tuesday, 7 February 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I'd like to deal with a few procedural matters, not all that I
12 have on my list, but at least a number.
13 And for the first one, I'd like to go into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 On the 26th of January, the Chamber requested that the Stanisic
15 and Simatovic Defences provide information about the scheduling of
16 witnesses for the upcoming weeks, including the approximate dates the
17 witnesses are expected to testify in court, particularly in light of last
18 week's e-mail correspondence relating to Witness DST-071.
19 Could the Chamber receive an update from the Stanisic and
20 Simatovic Defence.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. JORDASH: I'm afraid we're not that much further on in terms
23 of certainty. DST-071 is waiting for the service of the subpoena. We
24 expect that that will be done this week, and we've asked WVS tentatively
25 to be prepared to book him on a flight on Sunday for proofing on Monday,
1 to start on Tuesday. That obviously depends upon the subpoena being
2 served and depends upon the witness saying that he is prepared to follow
3 that course.
4 We expect he will, providing that WVS can arrange for him and his
5 wife - he is insisting that his wife comes with him. I think she has
6 accompanied him previously when he has attended court - and he is
7 determined that she does, too, on this occasion. So it's in the hands of
8 the courts in -- in the region --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is there an alternative scenario?
10 MR. JORDASH: I think the alternative scenario is a Simatovic
12 JUDGE ORIE: Has that been prepared?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our next witness is
14 already here, DFS-011. He's in The Hague or is in The Hague. And we had
15 some indication that DST-071 should testify next week, so it would mean a
16 lot to us to have a clear situation as soon as possible regarding that
17 witness so that, if that is so, we can take the adequate measures.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic, if he comes, then he comes. If
19 he doesn't come, then he doesn't come. I mean, my question, of course,
20 is: What happens if, for one reason or another, he will not come, have
21 you prepared a scenario. Of course, not the witness who is already here
22 but a witness who could then replace DST-071 if he doesn't arrive. That
23 is the question.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a witness,
25 but it's very hard to tell a witness, "Perhaps you will go and perhaps
1 you will not." There is a witness. We have a list of witnesses and they
2 are coming, but for us it is very difficult to tell somebody that they
3 will be travelling and perhaps they will not be. So this understand
4 certainty as to whether DST-071 will come or not is a bit difficult. If
5 we're told that is he not coming, then we can resolve the problem. But
6 like this, it's very difficult to know about it. So we need to be told
7 this today.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, that was my question. Is there a
9 witness who has been requested to remain standby in case Witness DST-071
10 would not come. And, of course, the sooner we know, the better it is so
11 as to end any uncertainty.
12 That is -- but that's for the next two or three witnesses. I
13 invite the parties to -- to further work on the programme after that.
14 Then following item. On the 6th of February, 2012, in relation
15 to a translation issue regarding P1289, the Chamber instructed the
16 Prosecution in an informal communication to have the translation reviewed
17 and to upload the revised version for the purpose of replacing the
18 present version in e-court; of course, if there's any reason to do so.
19 And that instruction is hereby put on the record.
20 Then the last item. The Chamber has decided on the
21 10th of January, 2012, to leave the issue of outstanding English
22 translations of source documents of Witness Milosevic's proposed expert
23 report in the parties' hands.
24 On the 13th of January, the Chamber requested the parties,
25 through an informal communication, to notify the Chamber once the issue
1 had been resolved. And the Chamber wonders whether there are any
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't have the date
4 in front of me right now, but I can find it. The report has been
5 provided with all the 65 ter numbers marked and indicated to the parties,
6 and the all the documents except for three or four have been given for
7 translation. And as soon a document is translated, it's uploaded, but
8 the document numbers and their markings are available to the parties,
9 both from the Prosecution and my colleagues from the Stanisic Defence.
10 I think a copy was also addressed to the Trial Chamber's legal
11 officer. But we did not receive any response or any requests or comments
12 by any of the parties.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Ms. Marcus.
15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 We were informed by the Simatovic Defence that some of the
17 translations were still missing and some of the 65 ter numbers were also
18 still missing. We are in the process of compiling, actually, the full
19 list of everything that is missing and I anticipate having that hopefully
20 today, latest by tomorrow. I will be sending that in an e-mail. It
21 seems to us that there are actually quite a number of documents that are
22 either not footnoted at all or where the numbers are missing or the
23 translations are missing. But we'll be -- rather than quoting numbers
24 now, I would like to give the accurate complete picture of that, which I
25 will do in the near future.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course the Chamber would like to know what
2 the dimensions of the problem are.
3 Could we hear then from you by tomorrow?
4 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. And could I just add, with
5 respect to the military report, we still don't have an English
6 translation. And this is now -- I just have to say that we had estimated
7 approximately three months that we would need to be able to process that
8 report accurately and respond. That was the amount of time that we said
9 in December, in fact. And so as time goes on, that gets to be quite a
10 matter of great concern. I understand that it is in translation but it
11 is now February, and we're quite concerned about that, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, after how many years is it now that
13 these reports are still not -- they are not translated.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague is
15 dealing with that, Mr. Bakrac, and we will inform you about this tomorrow
16 in detail regarding the status of the military expert's report, if you
17 permit us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you tomorrow.
19 Then, could the witness be brought into the courtroom. And
20 meanwhile -- yes, Mr. Jordash.
21 MR. JORDASH: Could I just raise, very, very briefly, the
22 situation concerning Mr. Stanisic's health.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours will recall last week the issue
25 concerning where his treatment for his physical condition might be
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was on Thursday that a phone call would be
4 MR. JORDASH: Yes. And I think the phone call was productive,
5 and it looks as though a -- an option has been found, which doesn't, as
6 yet, involve surgery, and that option is a third type of medicine or a
7 third type of therapy which Mr. Stanisic is to start next week in the
8 Bronovo hospital.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that's a medication rather than --
10 MR. JORDASH: Rather than surgery --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- surgery. Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: -- in the Cleveland hospital, which was one of the
13 things being suggested last week, I think.
14 So to that extent, there's been some productive movement, and I
15 think all concerned are somewhat relieved that there is a third option,
16 and that third option, as I've said, will start next week.
17 And I think Dr. van Geenen will file a report - this is what
18 Mr. Stanisic has been told - dealing with the commencement of this new
19 therapy, and also the details of that telephone conference which included
20 Mr. Stanisic's doctor, Dr. Tarabar.
21 That's that. That's the good news.
22 The bad news from our perspective is that after making several
23 requests, at least four requests of the Registry, for all Mr. Stanisic's
24 medical records relating to his treating doctors, we have learnt that his
25 treating doctor, Dr. Petrovic, his psychiatrist, actually has written
1 reports and now the Registry have agreed that we can actually have them.
2 That's after providing us reports without those reports contained
4 The Registry have said that it will take some time to disclose
5 these reports --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. "That's providing us reports without
7 those reports contained therein."
8 MR. JORDASH: I can clarify that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.
10 MR. JORDASH: We've made, I think, four requests now for
11 Mr. Stanisic's treating doctors' reports. On each occasion we have been
12 provided with reports and none of those reports have contained
13 Dr. Petrovic's reports --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You say in the reports that were provided,
15 those reports were not present.
16 MR. JORDASH: No. We eventually made a specific request for
17 Dr. Petrovic's report and we've been told, one, they do exist, but, two,
18 they exist in a form alongside other detainees' medical records and it
19 will take some time - so the Registry say - to edit those other reports
20 from the consolidated report.
21 In the meantime, the Registry asked Dr. Petrovic to provide a
22 summary report. We don't know as yet whether it's a summary of the last
23 three years. We don't know whether it's a summary of the last two weeks.
24 We just don't know. What we do know is that that summary report notes
25 that Mr. Stanisic's therapy, psychotherapy, is insufficient. That's as
1 much as we know as yet. Whether that again relates to the last
2 three years or whether it relates to the present situation, we just don't
3 know. We are trying to get answers to that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. JORDASH: And I just raise that now because, obviously, if
6 his psychotherapy is insufficient, this may well have a short- or mid- or
7 long-term effect on his ability to participate in the trial. That's why
8 I raise that now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might need some additional attention
10 anyhow because the Chamber noticed that reports by Dr. de Man are not
11 always fully consistent with the reports, that there seems to be some
12 divergence in views, and that that perhaps may have to be resolved as
14 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. And perhaps what I will do in
15 the -- or what we will do is ask Your Honours in the next report by
16 Dr. de Man to comment specifically on the sufficiency of Mr. Stanisic's
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, but we will further look at that. The Chamber
19 is happy to hear also that a -- a new avenue seems to be available for
20 the treatment of the gastroenterology.
21 MR. JORDASH: Don't look at me, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, no, no. I meant the problems in the field
23 of gastroenterology. Because, of course, the Chamber has considered that
24 a surgery abroad would have some legal implications as well as far as
25 detention or release, or whatever you call it, are concerned and we can
1 put that at least for the time being aside.
2 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Not that that's our main concern, to put our
4 problems aside, but, of course, the primary concern is a proper treatment
5 of Mr. Stanisic but all the rest could cause additional problems which
6 we'd rather be without.
7 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be brought into the
10 Meanwhile, I'll put a few matters on the record.
11 The first one is that on the 2nd of February, by omission, a
12 number D683 has been assigned to document 1D2090. But it should have
13 been document 1D2096, tendered by the Stanisic Defence, and therefore,
14 document 1D2090 is assigned a number, D683. And the document was already
15 admitted as an exhibit.
16 On the 31st of January, the OTP has tendered as video, 2D1001,
17 which was admitted and assigned number P3073. The Registry was informed
18 that the number of the tendered video should be 2D1001.1, and not 2D1001,
19 and, therefore, document 2D1001 should have been assigned number P3073.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Draca.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you again that you're still bound
24 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
25 testimony, and Mr. Farr will now continue his cross-examination.
1 Mr. Farr.
2 WITNESS: ACO DRACA [Resumed]
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Farr: [Continued]
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Draca. Can you hear me?
6 A. Good morning. I can hear you, yes.
7 Q. I'd like to start by asking you something that you said about the
8 meeting the day before the attack on Skabrnja. And this is at transcript
9 pages 16736 and 16737. You said:
10 "There were no special secrets there. Representatives of the war
11 staff in Benkovac, there was the briefing of the 180th Brigade. We had
12 the chief of the TO staff, the president of the municipality, the
13 president of the Executive Board, i.e., government, and I as the head of
14 state security. When Mladic said that this was unacceptable and that
15 they needed some shaking up, the president of the Benkovac government
16 suggested they should not opt for combat but, rather, that they should
17 make a show of force with tanks and everything else and try through
18 peaceful means to have the various check-points around Skabrnja removed?"
19 Based on this, it sounds like this was a general discussion.
20 Mladic presented the problem and then the other people present, like the
21 president of the Benkovac government, made and discussed suggestions
22 until a final course of action was settled on.
23 Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. We didn't even know that he would be there
25 that day. Probably it was just -- he happened to be there in order to
1 plan his daily activities. I assume that they had some sort of strategic
2 meeting that was separate, relating to the status of the military
3 situation on the ground.
4 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, sir. But I do have a lot of
5 material to get through so I'd ask you to keep your answers as brief as
6 possible if that's okay.
7 One thing I do want to clarify from that answer, however, you
8 said, "We didn't even know that he would be there."
9 Who is "he"?
10 A. No. We didn't know that he was going to be there during the
12 Q. And when you say "he," whom are you referring to?
13 A. Well, the man we've been discussing, Colonel Mladic.
14 Q. Can you give us the names and titles of the representatives of
15 the Benkovac War Staff that attended that meeting?
16 A. The president of the municipality, Mato Bogunovic; chief of the
17 SUP, Bosko Drazic; TO commander, Zoran Lakic; and myself, as well as the
18 president of the Executive Board whose name I cannot recall now.
19 Q. And I think that you said that these kind of briefings or
20 meetings took place approximately once a week; is that correct?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And you also indicated that they lasted at least until the time
23 that Arkan arrived in 1993; is that correct?
24 A. No, that's not what I said. They lasted during 1991. And I was
25 present until the state security was dissolved. And it was on the
1 22nd of January, 1992, that the JNA left Benkovac. So it may have been
2 an error in interpretation.
3 Q. Did some kind of weekly military briefings resume at some point,
4 that you participated in?
5 A. I did most of the time. But if the brigade commander or his
6 deputies were away, it would be skipped.
7 Q. And did those weekly military briefings continue more or less
8 until the end of the war?
9 A. Well, I suppose that they did. I can't be sure. It was until
10 November of 1991 that I attended these meetings. But not thereafter.
11 Q. So is it your evidence that you didn't attend those meetings when
12 you became either the deputy chief or chief of the RSK DB?
13 A. Not in Benkovac, no.
14 Q. Not even during the period between August of 1992 and
15 June of 1993, when you were simultaneously the deputy chief of the
16 service and the head of the Benkovac DB?
17 A. Well, let's say that it happened once every month. And mostly in
18 Knin, not in Benkovac.
19 The war-time staff - that's to say, the municipal authorities - I
20 suppose that they did hold them, but I don't know how often.
21 Q. Later in your testimony you were asked how you knew which units
22 participated in the attack on Skabrnja. And you said the following, at
23 transcript page 16742:
24 "The chief of state security, as the chief of security for that
25 district, I took part in most of the meetings and at the command of the
1 180th Brigade, in the TO, in the SUP, in the municipality of Benkovac
2 War Presidency."
3 Later in your testimony, you told us that as the chief of the
4 RSK DB, you participated in meetings of the RSK Supreme Defence Council
5 as well as the prime minister's briefings on security matters.
6 Is it fair to say that as a member of the Krajina DB, you
7 co-ordinated and co-operated with all relevant civilian and military
8 authorities regarding military matters during the war?
9 A. That's correct.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I
11 apologise for interrupting.
12 Can the witness receive full B/C/S interpretation of what my
13 learned friend put to him? Because some of the elements of what he asked
14 him were not heard in the B/C/S, and I do believe them important for the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would suggest that you repeat them all and
17 seek to verify whether the answer would be the same.
18 MR. FARR: I can do it -- was it just the question or was it the
19 quotes as well?
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The question only would be enough.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Witness, the question will be repeated because
22 it might not have been translated in full. So please carefully listen to
23 the question again and then perhaps you could tell us whether the new
24 formulation of the question causes you to answer the question in a
25 different way.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. FARR:
3 Q. Sir, the question I asked you was the following: Is it fair to
4 say that as a member of the Krajina DB, you co-ordinated and co-operated
5 with all relevant civilian and military authorities regarding military
6 matters during the war?
7 A. If you mean military matters, no. Those were strategic military
8 matters that were only dealt by the commands.
9 We co-ordinated work related to security issues where those
10 overlapped with the issues within the competence of the army.
11 Q. Jumping ahead a little, during your testimony last Wednesday, you
12 were discussing the Croatian army offensive of January 1993, and, in
13 particular, about the need for more troops. The transcript, at
14 page 16786 -- I'm going to read you a quote and I want to check with you
15 to see whether it recorded your answer correctly.
16 The quote, which is your answer, is this:
17 "At that point, as deputy chief of the department, I attended a
18 number of government meetings of the Krajina where, based on a plan put
19 together by the government, we were requested to provide assistance as
20 soon as possible, and I, in fact, pleaded with the units or with the
21 Main Staff of the VRS, pleaded with them for assistance, but it never
23 Was that answer correctly recorded? Was it -- were you asking
24 for assistance from the Bosnian Serb army?
25 A. Not directly. We did ask for it but always went through the
1 State Security Service of Republika Srpska.
2 We asked them to persuade their colleagues from the army to send
3 assistance to us.
4 Q. Why did this contact go through the State Security Service of the
5 RSK and the State Security Service of the RS, rather than from the SVK to
6 the VRS, or from President Martic to Karadzic or Krajisnik?
7 A. If you remember, I said that, at the time, those were
8 UN protected areas in Krajina, which were not entitled to having an army.
9 However, there followed a period of confusion where everybody was trying
10 to pull the various strings in the services that they had co-operated
11 with. So probably Martic asked of Karadzic and commanders who had their
12 colleagues from the former army would -- would also be contacting them on
13 the same issues, and this is how it would happen.
14 Q. But why was the state security involved?
15 A. As I said, as was the case with all the other security
16 institutions, we, too, were charged with security in the Republic of
17 Serbian Krajina. Even though we didn't have other own military
18 formations, we could use our good co-operation and influence with the
19 colleagues in Republika Srpska to secure a number of units.
20 Unfortunately, we failed in that effort.
21 Q. You said you didn't have your own military formations. To your
22 knowledge, was the RSK DB ever involved in efforts to obtain weapons for
23 the SVK or for other armed forces in the Krajina?
24 A. No. I don't know about that. Even the official weapons we had
25 had arrived -- were ordered and arrived from the RSK Ministry of the
2 Q. And what about the Serbian DB? To your knowledge, was the DB of
3 the Republic of Serbia ever involved in attempts to obtain weapons for
4 the SVK or other armed forces in the Krajina?
5 A. I don't know anything about that.
6 Q. Sir, I'd now like to summarise some of your evidence about your
7 relationship with Milan Martic and I'd ask you to tell me if I get
8 anything wrong.
9 You said you met with Martic when the SAO Krajina DB was being
10 formed. You met with Martic around the time that Captain Dragan was
11 setting up the training centre at Golubic. You met with him after the
12 massacre at Bruska. You met with him when the RSK DB was being reformed
13 in late 1992. You went with him to see Fikret Abdic on two occasions,
14 and Martic was the one who informed you about the creation of the
15 Pauk Command.
16 Is all of that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So based on that, is it fair to say that you had close
19 professional co-operation with Mr. Martic?
20 A. Precisely so.
21 MR. FARR: Your Honours, could we move into private session
22 briefly, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. FARR:
24 Q. Sir, on Thursday, you were asked a number of questions about the
25 facilities and people at Erdut, as well as some units that may have been
1 stationed there.
2 As far as you know, did any RSK official ever indicate, either to
3 you or to anyone else, that the DB of Serbia controlled an armed group at
5 A. No, nobody ever told me anything like that. This was under the
6 control of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina
7 formally and legally speaking, though I know that Arkan's units were in
8 there. And the education centre was within the competence of the
9 Ministry of Defence and Ministry of the Interior of the RSK.
10 Q. And, sir, you've told us that nobody ever told you anything like
11 that. But did you ever hear about an RSK official saying to someone else
12 that the Serbian DB controlled an armed group at Erdut?
13 A. No. I can say that, as far as I know, the DB of Serbia had no
14 influence over the centre. At least not directly so. Whether they had
15 any agents there, I cannot possibly know.
16 Q. And, again, to your knowledge, did any official of the RSK
17 government ever state or claim that Rade Kostic was a member of the
18 state security department of Serbia?
19 A. Many claimed that the late Rade Kostic was a member of the DB of
20 Serbia but nobody was sure of it. We weren't present in the field at the
21 time he formally worked for the Ministry of the Interior of the RSK.
22 Whether he carried an ID and had an actual employment with the DB of
23 Serbia is something that I don't know.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] A part of witness's answer was not
2 recorded as to who was present in the field and how far. What we have in
3 the transcript does not reflect what the witness said.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Having heard the comment of Mr. Petrovic, could you
5 please repeat your answer in respect of who was present in the field and
6 how far -- I have some difficulties in ...
7 Could you please repeat that portion of the answer.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was mentioning Erdut,
9 perhaps I misspoke when I said "we were not present in the field." I
10 meant the Ministry of the Interior or, rather, state security.
11 You have to understand that Eastern Slavonia and Baranja are
12 physically separated and some 6- to 700 kilometres away from Knin. You
13 had to go through Bosnia-Herzegovina and partly through Serbia to reach
14 there. And it was difficult for us to go out into the field. I think
15 that it was in late 1992 that I went there for the first time. We
16 weren't physically present there. There were deputy and assistant
17 defence ministers up there who would inform us of the goings on through
18 dispatches and by phone.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one additional question in relation
20 to one of your previous answers.
21 You said: "Many claimed that the late Rade Kostic was a member
22 of the DB of Serbia but nobody was sure of it."
23 Could you give us some more details about who claimed that
24 Rade Kostic was, and why that person wasn't certain, and when you learned
25 about that claim.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was simply talked of by
2 people in general and in the police circles. But I have to tell you that
3 the story went about about me being a member of the DB of Serbia. I have
4 to tell you that nobody told me that he had been working for the DB of
5 Serbia. At least I wasn't aware of it. I don't know it, still, to this
7 JUDGE ORIE: No. But -- but when did you learn about those
8 claims? Who told you about that story going around?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, truthfully, it's very
10 difficult 20 years on to know who exactly it was who was saying. But it
11 was in the grape-vine. The story was talked about mostly in the police
13 Let me stress that the same sort of stories circulated in respect
14 of most of the officers working for state security.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Most of what officers?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the Ministry of the Interior.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was already claimed at the time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know how it is. Serbia
19 is a large country compared to us. Some people perhaps found it
20 suitable. Some may have started the stories themselves. But as for
21 Rade Kostic, I cannot say that I knew for sure that he was a worker
22 working permanently for the DB of Serbia.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Where you earlier said, when you were asked about
24 the Serbian DB, whether they controlled an armed group at Erdut, your
25 answer was:
1 "No. I can say that -- I can say that, as far as I know, the DB
2 of Serbia had no influence over the centre. At least not directly so.
3 Whether they had any agents there, I cannot possibly know."
4 Do I now understand that the full answer to that question would
5 have been: Whether they had any agents there, I cannot possibly know,
6 but rumours went around that some of the officers, including Kostic, were
7 members of the DB of Serbia?
8 It's not -- it's not knowledge about Kostic and other officers
9 being employed by the DB of Serbia, but you were aware of rumours which
10 claimed that they were.
11 Is that correctly understood?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As rumours. That's right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever contradict -- you said it was
14 even said about you. Did you ever contradict that to anyone? Did you
15 ever make a public statement, "I am not in whatever way related to the
16 Serbian DB"?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, more than once. Especially if
18 the question came from somebody who was close to me or from the media.
19 Then I would adamantly deny it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever try to find out what was true in
21 those rumours and what was not true?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't try to do so. I said
23 that there were such rumours going around for so many people, including
24 the army. It was pointless to try to check if it was true, to either
25 confirm or deny it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
3 MR. FARR:
4 Q. Sir, I'd like to just briefly follow up on one of Judge Orie's
6 He said: Can you give us some more details about who claimed
7 that Rade Kostic was and why that person wasn't certain and when you
8 learned about the claim.
9 Your answer was:
10 "Well, it was simply talked of by people in general and in the
11 police circles."
12 I want to make sure I understand your evidence. Is it your
13 evidence that you can't recall any person in particular who mentioned
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Sir, are you aware that on the 20th of April of 1991, a decision
17 was published in the SAO Krajina gazette that purported to join the
18 territory of the SAO Krajina to the territory of the Republic of Serbia?
19 Just are you aware of that?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There were difficulties in
22 interpretation, but it's been sorted out.
23 Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 Could you please answer the question, whether you were aware of
1 the decision which was published in the SAO Krajina gazette.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was widely published by
3 all the media.
4 MR. FARR:
5 Q. And as an official of the SAO Krajina and later of the RSK, did
6 you personally share that goal of joining the RSK to Serbia?
7 A. At that point in time, I was not an official yet. Apparently the
8 Assembly in Serbia, in Belgrade, rejected it, so it seemed moot for us
9 down there to be entertaining the idea at all.
10 Q. During the time that you were the head of the RSK DB, was there
11 ever any plan or proposal to join the RSK DB to the DB of Serbia?
12 A. No, there was never such a plan. I absolutely assert that.
13 MR. FARR: Could we please have 65 ter 6366 on the screen.
14 Q. Sir, this document is the work report of the RDB of the RSK MUP
15 for 1993. It's dated 25 April 1994 and it's addressed to the minister of
16 the interior and the government of the RSK.
17 If we could now have the middle of page 3 in B/C/S and the middle
18 of page 4 in English.
19 And, sir, for the moment, can you just confirm that that's your
20 signature and your stamp at the bottom of that document?
21 A. Yes, that is my signature and stamp.
22 Q. Okay. Can we now please have the bottom of page 2 in B/C/S and
23 the middle of page 3 in English.
24 And, sir, I'm just going to read a portion of the document to you
25 and ask you to comment on it.
1 I'm interested in the portion that says:
2 "In the same period, 52 reports were submitted to the president
3 of the republic and the government of the RSK, while 64 information
4 regarding the military issues have been submitted to the Main Staff of
5 the VRSK ..."
6 Are you able to tell us why the number of reports submitted to
7 the Main Staff of the SVK is slightly higher than the number of reports
8 submitted to the RSK government?
9 A. If we're talking about sending them to the government and the
10 president, that often was once a week, an overview.
11 As for the others noted here, these were operative matters, so
12 sometimes there would be two or three dispatches per day, if the
13 situation required that. In one day.
14 Q. The document goes on to say:
15 "118 reports, dispatches, memos, Official Notes have been
16 submitted to the 2nd Administration of the Republic of Serbia MUP and
17 28 information to the RDB of the Republika Srpska MUP ..."
18 Dealing first with the 118 reports sent to the 2nd Administration
19 of the Republic of Serbia MUP. To be more precise, that's actually a
20 reference to the 2nd Administration of the DB of Serbia; correct?
21 A. Correct. But this is 118 different reports for the 1st and the
22 3rd Administration. I don't know why that was not stated here. But a
23 large part of that was sent to the 2nd Administration, yes.
24 Q. On Thursday of last week, I asked you whether you sent more
25 reports to your own government or to the 2nd Administration of the DB of
1 Serbia. Your answer was:
2 "We sent an immeasurably larger number of reports to the
3 government. When I say 'the government,' I mean the president of the
4 republic. We were obliged on a daily basis to make a cross-analysis of
5 all of the political events and these reports were issued daily. Then
6 there were weekly separate reports which were a compilation of all this
7 information. We did not have such a voluminous contact with the
8 2nd Administration."
9 Sir, this report contradicts that testimony, doesn't it?
10 A. If you look carefully at this report, it says 52 reports to the
11 president of the republic. These are the weekly reports. But the daily
12 reports are not mentioned here, and the president would know that there
13 were 365 of them in a year.
14 Q. Why wouldn't you --
15 A. They were even sent on a Sunday.
16 Q. Why wouldn't you have mentioned the daily reports in this
17 year-end report?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know where the -- this document is from.
19 Perhaps it's just been deleted. Perhaps at that point in time we didn't
20 think it was important to mention that.
21 I think that even for the Main Staff there were more than -- more
22 reports than is stated here, more than these 64.
23 Q. You've just said: "Perhaps at that point we didn't think it was
24 important to mention that."
25 Is it your evidence that while you did send more reports to the
1 president and the government, you sent more important reports to the
2 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB?
3 Is that your evidence?
4 A. I didn't understand you properly. How -- how do you explain
6 Q. Why wasn't it important to mention the daily reports in this
7 year-end report?
8 A. I would take the daily reports to the president myself,
9 personally. Every day between 9.00 and 10.00 in the morning, I had a
10 briefing with him. If I was on a trip somewhere, then my deputy would
11 take them. So we probably thought that these analytical reports were
12 more important that were prepared by the analysis department and that was
13 sent to the president by mail on a weekly basis.
14 Q. You've just said these analytical reports were more important.
15 In other words, the weekly reports were more important.
16 So is it your evidence that, while you may have sent more reports
17 to the government of the RSK, you sent more important reports to the
18 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB than you did to the government of
19 the RSK?
20 A. What you're trying to tell me is technically impossible. Why
21 would the 2nd Administration need something that needed to be acted upon
22 urgently? That would have been better sent to our government.
23 20 years on I cannot really evaluate which reports are more
24 important, the daily or the weekly ones. Events were following one upon
25 the other. It was a situation of war.
1 Q. Okay. Sir, I'm just going to tell you the Prosecution position
2 and ask for your comment and then I'll move on.
3 It's our position that the large number of documents sent from
4 the RSK DB to the 2nd Administration of the DB of Serbia shows that the
5 co-operation between the two services went beyond the normal co-operation
6 between friendly services. And, in fact, for practical purposes, the RSK
7 DB and the DB of Serbia were functioning almost as a single service.
8 Just if you would like to respond to that.
9 A. I still assert that that is not correct. But I have to add that,
10 unfortunately so.
11 MR. FARR: Can we now have the middle of page 4 in English and
12 the middle of page 3 in B/C/S.
13 Q. And, sir, directing your --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Sorry. Mr. Jordash.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. JORDASH: Is it possible to have a break? I know that this
17 next section might take a little while. And I'm also wondering whether
18 it might be fair to allow the witness to read the whole report to remind
19 himself of what this report says.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
21 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I wouldn't have any objection to that.
22 We can probably provide a printed copy to ... whom would we provide a
23 printed copy to?
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think to the Registry. The Registry would then
25 take care that -- the Registrar will take care that it ends up in the
1 hands of the witness. And then, I take it, a B/C/S version will be
2 provided to him.
3 We'll take a break, and I'd like to briefly - after having
4 discussed it with my colleagues - to raise a matter with counsel of all
5 three parties, but primarily Mr. Jordash being involved, on a matter
6 which was just brought to my attention a minute ago.
7 So if you would remain standby so that if I would like to hear
8 information from you, that I could receive that.
9 We take a break, and we resume at a quarter to 11.00.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10 .55 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't see any witness.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, if you're ready, you may proceed.
17 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Sir, before the break, we were looking at the 1993 work report of
19 the RSK DB. Just before we started looking at that document, I asked you
20 a question, and I want to repeat that for you, along with your answer.
21 The question, at page 23 of the transcript, was:
22 "During the time that you were the head of the RSK DB, was there
23 ever any plan or proposal to join the RSK DB to the DB of Serbia?"
24 Your answer was:
25 "No. There was never such a plan. I absolutely assert that."
1 I would now like to read you to the last sentence in the
2 1993 report of the RSK DB.
3 It says:
4 "It might be that due to the problems of the organisational
5 nature no significant results in the intelligence work have been
6 achieved. However, it can be said that the foundation for the serious
7 work and the final preparations for the annexation to the RDB of the
8 Republic of Serbia MUP has been created."
9 Sir, to me, that seems like a complete contradiction. Can you
10 explain that?
11 A. I can explain. I repeat with full responsibility that I never
12 wrote a single document, nor did I receive a document from anyone, nor
13 did I attend any meeting where the possibility of annexing the RDB of the
14 Republic of Serbia to us or, actually the other way around, us to the
15 RDB of Republic of Serbia, was discussed.
16 This sentence of mine and my formulation is here. The report was
17 made on the basis of an analytical overview. I wrote this sentence and
18 the reason for that I have to explain in -- this was in order to relieve
19 the pressure of President Martic towards me, or towards the service,
20 rather. He had a great desire for all the ministries in the Krajina,
21 especially the national bank, financial institutions, the Public and the
22 State Security Service, he wanted to annex them all to the government of
23 the Republic of Serbia.
24 Since at that time he was not on good terms with Mr. Stanisic,
25 the chief of the RDB of Serbia, he always exerted pressure on me to
1 initiate that, because I knew, for technical and political reasons, that
2 I was unable to do that. I never initiated this, but I had to -- I mean,
3 I didn't have to but I just thought I had to ease the pressure a little
4 bit, and I had to explain to him, hopefully, that this was not possible.
5 If you look at this report carefully, it is addressed exclusively
6 to the minister of the interior who is the initiator of the idea for us
7 to make an overview which then he would be able to take to Martic. I
8 knew that this was so and, simply, I put that there because of the
9 minister and because of Martic.
10 If we look at the previous paragraph, we can see how small the
11 funds were that we got from the government budget for our work. I mean,
12 if there were any serious preparations, we would receive some funds from
13 the RDB of Serbia and not -- we would not only have had 27.000 German
14 marks for our work throughout that whole period.
15 I hope you understand. These were completely different times.
16 It was war. Again, I repeat, the president was what he was. So I had to
17 cope with this in -- in different ways.
18 Also, I would like to add - I assume that the archives are
19 accessible to you - I'm convinced that you will not find a single
20 document that talks about the joining or merger of these two services.
21 Q. Sir, in that answer, when you were talking about
22 President Martic, you said:
23 "He had a great desire for all the ministries in the Krajina,
24 especially the national bank, financial institutions, the Public and the
25 State Security Service, he wanted to annex them all to the
1 Republic of Serbia ..."
2 Sir, that is a plan or a proposal to annex the RSK DB to the
3 DB of Serbia, isn't it?
4 A. That was his idea. But technically, neither orally or in writing
5 did we ever initiate such initiatives, and I never had an opportunity to
6 discuss this topic with Mr. Stanisic.
7 Q. Did Mr. Martic ever propose that idea to you? That the RSK DB be
8 annexed to the DB of Serbia.
9 A. Yes, frequently. Even though I tried to explain to him that this
10 was impossible without a parliament decision, and without the decision of
11 the Government of Serbia. But he had frequent misunderstandings at that
12 time with President Milosevic and he felt that he could link up with
13 Serbia through the back door, in order to place Milosevic before a
14 fait accompli. But I knew that this was not -- that this was impossible.
15 Q. What were the final preparations for the annexation of the RSK DB
16 to the DB of Serbia? What did you do?
17 A. Once again, I repeat, I claim that there were no preparations at
18 all for that. I am personally responsible for this formulation here.
19 And I've already explained why that was.
20 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. How -- how does -- how does
21 final preparations match with no preparations? I didn't get that from
22 your answer.
23 A. I said that I put that there, that formulation, that wording, in
24 order to satisfy the president, but there were no preparations
25 whatsoever, which implies no final preparations either.
1 Q. So you lied to the president of your republic.
2 A. I didn't directly lie to him, but I was guided by the desire to
3 ease the pressure. Because his calls frequently were on a daily basis,
4 and he was known as a man who was difficult to co-operate with. So in
5 order to avoid misunderstandings with him, I did that, in order to
6 prevent any obstructions to our work.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Draca, you're actually explaining why you didn't
8 tell him the truth, isn't it? And whether we call that a lie or not, the
9 truth, that's, of course, I would say a semantic issue. And you're just
10 explaining that what you wrote down here - that's how we understand your
11 testimony - was not the truth.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could put it that way, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. FARR: Can we please have P987 on the screen.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And talking about the truth, et cetera, you
16 explained to us now several times that Mr. Martic insisted so much on
17 planning to join the RSK institutions to the Republic of Serbia
18 institutions. That should have been part of your answer when you were
19 asked about whether any plans were -- or proposals were made. Because
20 after you had denied that ever such plans were there, not talking about
21 proposals, you now explain to us that Mr. Martic had proposed this
22 various times. And that should have been part of your answer on the
23 first question put by Mr. Farr. Because you are not only supposed to
24 tell us the truth and nothing the truth, but also the whole truth, and
25 this was part of what you explained to us now to be the truth.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I neglected to tender that last document.
3 It's 65 ter 6366, and I'd ask that it be admitted as a Prosecution
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's the 1993 report.
6 MR. FARR: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 65 ter 6366 will receive number P3076,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And, absent any objections, is admitted into
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. FARR:
14 Q. Sir, on your screen we have a letter dated 7 October 1994 written
15 by Milan Martic. It's addressed to Slobodan Milosevic, the president of
16 Serbia; to Mirko Marjanovic, the prime minister of Serbia;
17 Zoran Sokolovic, the minister of the interior; and to General Perisic,
18 the chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia.
19 It concerns an incident on the 4th of October of 1994 when Martic
20 was threatened by armed men after crossing the border from Serbia into
21 the RSK. Following the incident, Martic --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Are you reading at this moment? Then could we
23 please have the English version, because I see that it appears in the
24 B/C/S but -- yes, there we are.
25 MR. FARR: Your Honour, in fact, I was paraphrasing. I will be
1 quoting a portion of the letter. But to continue the paraphrase.
2 Following the incident, Martic went to the command of the
3 11th Corps in Vukovar.
4 And if we could now have the middle of page 3 in English and the
5 top of page 2 in B/C/S.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Are we able to allow the witness
9 somehow to read the entire document, so he has an idea of what the whole
10 document is about.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think Mr. Farr has introduced the document.
12 If there's -- if there's any aspect of this document you would consider
13 it useful at this stage, not later in your examination, to be put to the
14 witness, then you may do a suggestion to Mr. Farr.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
16 MR. FARR:
17 Q. Sir, the portion that I'm interested, and I'll read that part
18 verbatim, it says:
19 "At the meeting in the command of the 11th Corps in Vukovar, I
20 was given the following information. The men who organised the incident
21 were members of the paramilitary and parapolice forces stationed in
22 Erdut. They are under the direct control of Rade Kostic of the state
23 security department of the MUP of Serbia. These individuals also took
24 part in the kidnapping of Ilija Prijic, minister of the interior of the
1 "The said Rade Kostic had entered the territory of the RSK an
2 hour before I did, i.e., at about 0900 hours, in an official BMW with
3 registration plates of the MUP of Serbia."
4 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please provide a reference in
5 the B/C/S, in the original, for the sake of the interpreters.
6 MR. FARR: This is the top of page 3 in English and the middle of
7 page 2 in B/C/S.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm ... yes. The second paragraph in English about
9 the Pajero is found on the top of the page in B/C/S. And Mr. Farr
10 started reading a little bit further down at the end of the first
11 paragraph in B/C/S, the 11th Corps.
12 Is there any need to have it read again by ...?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. At least the second part of
14 the counsel's question.
15 MR. FARR: Yes, I'll read the -- the second portion.
16 "The said Rade Kostic had entered the territory of the RSK an
17 hour before I did, i.e., at about 0900 hours, in an official BMW with
18 registration plates of the MUP of Serbia."
19 And if we could now have the middle of page 4 in B/C/S.
20 THE REGISTRAR: There's no page 4 in B/C/S.
21 MR. FARR: That would be the middle of page 4 in English - I
22 apologise - and the bottom of page -- the bottom of page 2 in B/C/S.
23 And for the booths' information, I will be starting to read with
24 the paragraph that says: "Mr. President of the Republic ..."
25 Second from the bottom in the B/C/S version.
1 This portion says:
2 "Mr. President of the Republic, Mr. Prime Minister, Minister of
3 the Interior, Chief of Staff, my decision at present is not to go public
4 with everything that happens to me in the state of which I am the
5 president. There is overwhelming evidence that the state security of the
6 MUP of Serbia is behind these paramilitary and parapolice forces. There
7 is also irrefutable evidence that in 80 per cent of the cases these men
8 come from the Republic of Serbia.
9 "I have evidence to support all of the above."
10 Q. Sir, you knew about these claims by Milan Martic; correct?
11 A. I did. I knew about this incident. Immediately on his return,
12 Martic convened the Supreme Defence Council to discuss this incident.
13 I'm not familiar with this document though. I'm seeing it for the first
14 time. But I do know what he said about it and it was similar, and then
15 he issued orders in relation to that.
16 I can say that this incident was a result of the political
17 conflict between Hadzic and Martic because Rade Kostic or anyone else
18 would prevent the president from entering the area of Slavonia. Why
19 would that be in the interests of the Serbian state security? Since the
20 minister of interior is not mentioned here but he was with Martic. He
21 did not wish to call anybody to Slavonia.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, lines 13 to 16,
24 page 36. I think that that is incomplete. The witness explained whose
25 role -- who had what role there. At least that's how I understood it.
1 MR. FARR: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. FARR: If I may. It's one situation where Mr. Petrovic is
4 completely certain that a particular word has been left out or some
5 concrete identifiable mistake has been made, but where we're dealing with
6 his understanding of a witness's answer --
7 JUDGE ORIE: If he says that the witness explained beyond what is
8 translated to us, then he is fully entitled to raise that matter.
9 What I'll do, Mr. Draca, I will read the answer as it appears on
10 the transcript.
11 Now, if there's anything left out, I don't want you to tell us
12 why or, et cetera, but just to add what is not there but what you did
14 I slowly read what we find on our transcript.
15 "I can say that this incident was a result of the political
16 conflict between Hadzic and Martic because Rade Kostic or anyone else
17 would prevent the president from entering the area of Slavonia. Why
18 would that be in the interests of the Serbian state security?"
19 Is there anything missing in what I just read?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that we discussed the issue
21 at the collegium meeting of the Supreme Defence Council. For the rest, I
22 really don't know. But that's it.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't want to make
24 suggestions, but the witness did draw a distinction between what
25 Rade Kostic could and could not do. But this can easily be checked. I
1 wouldn't want to suggest anything. We can have the tape checked and then
2 we will see what the witness had to say on the issue.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, I think Mr. Farr would
4 appreciate if you informally would tell him what, in your view, is
5 missing so that Mr. Farr, if it is of any relevance for his follow-up
6 questions, but perhaps you could send him an e-mail or -- what you think
7 is missing. And apart from that, we can check the audio at a later
8 stage, if there's any reason to do that.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. FARR:
11 Q. Sir, you've just indicated that you knew about this incident
12 immediately upon Martic's return, that he convened the Supreme Defence
13 Council to discuss the incident, and that you know what Martic said about
15 Earlier today, and this is at page 18 of the transcript, I asked
17 "As far as you know, did any RSK official ever indicate either to
18 you or to anyone else that the DB of Serbia controlled an armed group at
20 Your answer was:
21 "No. Nobody ever told me anything like that. This was under the
22 control of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina."
23 And then you went on to give your view of who was in control of
24 the facility of Erdut.
25 Sir, again, to me, there seems to be a total contradiction
1 between what you just said about Martic having told you about this
2 incident and then what he said about it, and you never having been told
3 anything about the DB Serbia controlling an armed group at Erdut by any
4 RSK official.
5 Could you please explain that?
6 A. I didn't finish off my answer, really, because Mr. Petrovic
7 interrupted me.
8 On that occasion, Martic did not say decidedly that he knew which
9 units were involved and I was just about to say that he tasked the
10 minister of the interior with that matter because they didn't think it
11 appropriate that they should talk to these people. So I was asked to
12 call Mr. Kostic because the information he received from the army, that's
13 to say, from the 11th Corps command, seemed quite lacking conviction.
14 For instance, he was the deputy minister of the interior for Baranja,
15 which is an area north of East Slavonia. So especially when it comes to
16 Erdut, Kostic had no powers whatsoever over that particular centre.
17 So I did call Rade Kostic after this incident, and he said that
18 he had no part in it, that the 11th Corps command was deceiving Martic,
19 that on that same evening when Martic left, they talked to Hadzic. And
20 the story was that they were between two stools. Anyway, subsequently
21 Martic met up with Hadzic. They sorted it all out without actually going
22 into the details as to whose unit these members belonged to. This is the
23 first time I'm looking at this report.
24 Since I'm the chief of -- since I was the chief of the
25 State Security Service, I issued an order without the knowledge of
1 Mr. Martic, asking that the service in East Slavonia and Baranja shed
2 more light on this event. They told me that there was a written report
3 somewhere which said that these were members of public security who were
4 under full control of Hadzic.
5 Lest I should create more clashes and conflicts, I did not
6 forward this report to the president of the republic. And when I say
7 "clashes or conflicts," I mean of political nature.
8 Q. Sir, I want to be sure that understand your testimony.
9 Martic did tell you that he believed that it was members of the
10 State Security Service of Serbia who were responsible for this; correct?
11 A. No. He didn't put it that way.
12 He said that he had heard from the 11th Corps command that they
13 were members of the MUP of Serbia. But we expressed our disbelief at
14 that very meeting. It seemed unlikely that anyone from Serbia would be
15 coming, since the RSK MUP and the 11th Corps in -- had enough members in
16 Slavonia who were loyal to that structure higher up. I don't see why
17 anybody would be calling people from Serbia to come on in.
18 Q. Sir, if you -- if you corrected, as you say, Martic's
19 information, why did he then send a letter to Slobodan Milosevic, among
20 others, claiming that these were people under the control of the
21 State Security Service of Serbia?
22 A. I've already said that this is the first time I'm looking at this
24 Perhaps he was acting on an impulse and asking
25 President Milosevic for help, because his reasoning was that if this was
1 true, only the state leadership of Serbia could give him an answer to
2 that question. I really don't know what his motivations were.
3 Knowing him, I suppose that this is it what they told him,
4 because he was not a man given to making things up --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said last.
6 MR. FARR:
7 Q. Sir, the end of your answer was not recorded. Could you repeat
8 whatever the last thing you said was.
9 A. I said that Martic was given to accepting disinformation which
10 would oftentimes result in political clashes in RSK, but not only within
11 the RSK but also political conflicts with the RS and Serbia.
12 Q. Sir, knew that Mr. Martic did, in fact, send this letter,
13 correct, and you knew what the contents were, generally speaking?
14 A. No. I've said twice already that this is the first time I'm
15 looking at this letter. I wasn't aware of this report.
16 Q. So just to be clear, it's your evidence that at a time when you
17 were the chief of state security of the RSK, when you were, as you say,
18 reporting to and communicating with the DB of Serbia, the president of
19 your republic sent a letter to the president of Serbia claiming that
20 forces under the control of the DB of Serbia had pointed weapons at him
21 and threatened him at a border crossing between Serbia and the RSK, and
22 you never learned that that letter had been sent.
23 Is that your evidence?
24 A. I really don't remember seeing this letter before today.
25 Q. Neither seen it, nor heard about it, nor learned about it in any
1 way. Is that your evidence?
2 A. You mean this report that we have on our screens right now?
3 Q. Learned of the existence of this letter from Martic to
4 President Milosevic and the rest of the Serbian leadership.
5 A. No. I really can't remember the report.
6 He would write things often. By looking at the formulations
7 contained in this report, I simply can't remember.
8 MR. FARR: Could we, please, have 65 --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, could I?
10 Did Mr. Martic tell you that he thought that Kostic was involved?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did say that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And what explanation did he give in respect of the
13 involvement of Mr. Kostic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He, too, was taken by surprise
15 because he was on good terms with Mr. Kostic. He was given that
16 information from the 11th Corps command stationed in Vukovar. As I said
17 a moment ago, we too expressed disbelief at Mr. Kostic being the
18 organiser behind it all because he was in Slavonia, not in Baranja.
19 He did tell us that they were some -- Kostic's men from the DB of
20 Serbia. But we were taken aback by that information. And he did tell us
21 the story in exactly the terms that we see written in this report.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you say, He did tell us that they were some
23 Kostic men from the DB of Serbia, are you referring to Mr. Martic? Was
24 Mr. Martic telling this or ...?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Martic said that. And he
1 was referring to the information he got from the 11th Corps.
2 The next day, Mr. Kostic himself denied it, as much, to me. He
3 stated that he had no part in that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the influence on the territory of the RSK
5 by the DB of Serbia was not only rumours but was even discussed in this
6 context. Meaning that Mr. Martic believed that there was DB of Serbia
7 involvement in the matter.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've repeatedly said that in that
9 period of time, Martic was not on good terms with Mr. Stanisic. And in
10 his view, that was possible.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it wasn't just -- just rumours. It was
12 even expressed by the then-highest authority in the Republic of Serbia
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But all that was not confirmed to
15 us in certain terms, we considered to be rumours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But earlier you were asked whether you
17 remembered any person, any specific person. And you could have answered
18 that even Mr. Martic, at a certain moment, said this. Because your
19 testimony was that you were -- that you have no -- you had no
20 recollection of anyone saying this but it just being rumours.
21 You remember that that was your testimony? But now you adjust
22 that answer by saying that Mr. Martic, at least at one point in time,
23 expressed as his view that Kostic and the DB of Serbia would have been
24 involved in the attack -- or the arrest of him?
25 I'm again seeking whether this is correctly understood. You -- I
1 see you're nodding yes.
2 Then I would like to remind that you're supposed to tell us the
3 whole truth. And Mr. Farr may proceed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
6 MR. FARR:
7 Q. Sir, this letter refers to the kidnapping of minister of the
8 interior Ilija Prijic. Around the end of August 1994, Minister Prijic
9 publicly stated, in fact, at a press conference that he had been
10 kidnapped by four paramilitary soldiers in Borovo Selo, put in a car, and
11 released several hours later in a forest near Bijeljina. He publicly
12 accused Radoslav Kostic of being behind the kidnapping and also publicly
13 said that Radoslav Kostic worked for Serbian state security.
14 That's all correct, isn't it?
15 A. I remember that incident as well. I also remember the press
16 conference. I don't remember all the details, but I know that he also
17 accused Kostic. And it was, in fact, this very minister of the interior
18 who was the cause of that conflict with Martic.
19 MR. FARR: Could we now please have 65 ter 6372 on the screen.
20 Q. Sir, this document is a report of the RSK RDB in Knin dated
21 28 July 1994. And as you can see, it's addressed to the commander of the
22 Main Staff of the SVK.
23 And if we could have the next page in English and zoom in on the
24 signature in the B/C/S version.
25 It appears that this document was signed for you by someone; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 MR. FARR: Could we please return to page 1 of the English and
4 zoom out on the B/C/S version.
5 Q. I'm just going to read a portion of this document. The subject
6 line is: HV or Croatian army activities. And the document says:
7 "On 27 July 1994 we received the following urgent dispatch from
8 the Republic of Serbia DB department:
9 "We have information that a Croatian army special purpose unit is
10 located in the Nustar village sector, training for a helicopter assault.
11 The helicopter assault is planned in the following sectors: Bridges on
12 the rivers Danube at Bezdan and Bogojevo."
13 And then the document goes on to give more details about the
15 I'd just like to read to you a portion of your testimony on
16 Thursday. And this is transcript pages 16907 to 16908. The discussion
17 was about written reports or communications from the DB of Serbia to you.
18 You said:
19 "We didn't receive reports about internal political matters of
20 Serbia. The reports that the Serbian DB sent to us in Knin had to do
21 with specific developments that they would draw our attention to. It was
22 a wide range of issues. I don't know how far you would want me to
23 explain it to you. I didn't need to inform the president of the republic
24 or anything of that sort. Those were issues that related to the
1 And then my next question was:
2 "Were some of them military matters?
3 Your answer was:
4 "No, never?"
5 "Q. So the Serbian DB never sent you a written communication
6 regarding military matters that might be relevant for the SVK; is that
8 "A. No. I had never received a report that would relate to
9 anything contacted with the SVK.
10 "Q. Do you have any knowledge of anyone in your service ever
11 receiving information from the Serbian DB and forwarding it to the SVK?
12 "A. I don't remember anything of that sort."
13 Sir, this document contradicts your testimony, doesn't it?
14 A. No. This isn't a document or a report related to military
15 matters. This is a report from an agent in the field sending information
16 about the movement of troops. Precisely for that reason, we forwarded
17 that information in full to those who were charged with military issues.
18 So the Assembly of the RSK cannot discuss these issues of assessment, how
19 realistic this is, or whatever. That's why we would fully convey this
20 information to the army. Not because we considered the information to be
21 of military nature but because of who the information might be important
23 Perhaps we were at cross purposes or we didn't understand each
24 other when you were asking me about military matters.
25 Q. Sir, I did my best do make sure that that didn't happen and that
1 is why I asked you the last question, which was: Do you have any
2 knowledge of anyone in your service ever receiving information from the
3 Serbian DB and forwarding it to the SVK?
4 To which you answered that you didn't remember anything of that
6 Are you now saying that that answer was not accurate?
7 A. No. Your question had only to do with military issues. The
8 issues that I considered to be of military nature were never forwarded by
9 myself or anybody else.
10 This is part of routine reporting. For instance, when the Glina
11 centre would send information to Knin, if I wasn't there, the deputy, if
12 he thought it might be interesting for the Main Staff because it had to
13 do with the defence of the RSK, the deputy had to forward it just as it
14 is. So we wouldn't extract information or make a summary of it. We
15 would forward it to the army as is, for them to see how relevant those
16 issues would be. But we never dealt with military issues.
17 MR. FARR: Your Honours, I tender this as a Prosecution Exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6327 will receive P3077, Your Honours.
20 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I should have jumped up earlier and I should
21 have jumped up earlier with the previous exhibit.
22 Would the Prosecution indicate the purpose of the exhibit? Is it
23 for impeachment purposes?
24 MR. FARR: It's for impeachment and for substantive evidence,
25 Your Honour.
1 MR. JORDASH: Then I would object to the latter. I don't object
2 to it to being used as impeachment, but I do object to it being used as
3 -- for the truth of its contents. The Prosecution have used it for a
4 very specific purpose. We have all seen that purpose. It is for
5 Your Honours to evaluate whether that purpose was effective or not. But
6 to then introduce it for the contents but without giving any indication
7 whatsoever as to its probative value or its relevance --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, this raises a matter which is often on my mind,
9 Mr. Jordash.
10 If you say for the substantive value and not only for purposes of
11 challenging the reliability or the credibility of this witness, then, of
12 course, that raises a series of questions, the first being was this --
13 because we're talking about the letter sent to -- are we -- the previous
14 one, the letter --
15 MR. FARR: Your Honour, the letter is in evidence, just to avoid
16 any confusion on that point. P987 is already in evidence. The letter
17 from Martic.
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, that's right. It's this exhibit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
20 MR. JORDASH: It's this proposed exhibit that --
21 JUDGE ORIE: This proposed -- we're now talking about the one
23 MR. JORDASH: Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'm back in --
25 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, that was my fault.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
2 MR. FARR: Your Honour --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. FARR: Our understanding is that the close co-operation
5 between the DB and all of the armies is contested. The relationship
6 between the DB and the military has certainly been almost the theme of
7 this case, so it's certainly relevant to that issue.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You would say --
9 MR. FARR: That's why we would tender it.
10 MR. JORDASH: But --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr apparently has a double reason to tender
12 this document.
13 First, to challenge the credibility and reliability of this
14 witness is; and, second, to establish that there was a type of exchange
15 of information or at least receiving information from the DB of Serbia,
16 which he considers relevant in the context of establishing what the role
17 of the Serbian DB in the events in the RSK were.
18 MR. FARR: And, Your Honour, if I could just add also the
19 relationship between the Serbian DB and the RSK DB, the RSK DB acting as
20 a conduit between those two.
21 MR. JORDASH: And there's clear distinction here. One is that
22 the Prosecution, we accept, could not have predicted that this witness
23 would testify in the way that he has. Therefore, we don't object to the
24 use of the document to impeach that testimony which they couldn't
25 predict. But as Mr. Farr has indicated and very clear, the issue of
1 co-operation between the DB and entities such as these dealt with in the
2 document have been a live issue from the moment the indictment was
3 drafted. The Prosecution ought to, having decided what their case was
4 against the DB and against the first accused, ought to, if they wanted to
5 rely upon this document, have put it in their initial evidence.
6 So that we, during the Prosecution case, during the Defence case,
7 could have adequately dealt with the issue. Now all we can do is rely
8 upon what Mr. Draca has said and we can rely upon the future witnesses
9 called by Mr. Simatovic's team. What we cannot do is counter this
10 evidence through the last three years of the trial. That's the problem.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it. The document will --
12 MR. FARR: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, yes.
14 MR. FARR: Just except that -- a few further submissions on that
16 Your Honours observed, in paragraph 14 of your decision regarding
17 the admission of evidence in the cross-examination of Defence witnesses,
18 that the real test is one of sufficient connection to the witness's
19 evidence. This is a document that the witness acknowledges was signed
20 for him. It's something that was perhaps not important enough to be
21 included in our case when Mr. Draca was not going to be a witness in this
23 Mr. Draca now has been a witness in this case. He has testified
24 for a considerable period of time. The need to contextualise his
25 evidence is all the greater. And also, as you observed, it is consistent
1 with the spirit of 90(H)(i) to admit Prosecution documents in support of
2 their case if they're sufficiently connected to the witness's evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
4 MR. JORDASH: If Your Honours' decision was intended to remove
5 any restriction on the Prosecution tendering exhibits, except that the
6 Prosecution establish that the proposed exhibit has a sufficient
7 connection to the case, then there are no evidential rules.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what Mr. Farr says. Mr. Farr says --
9 MR. FARR: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's not the case,
10 Your Honour, to the witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- in relation to the witness, not to the case but
12 to the witness.
13 Mr. Farr tell us that they couldn't foresee who you would call as
14 witnesses. They could not present, well, let's say, the thousands and
15 thousands of documents from the bar table which may have some relevance
16 but which are not directly linked to the witnesses called by the
17 Prosecution, that they therefore now carefully select relevant documents
18 which can be directly linked to the witnesses they were not aware of at
19 the time, that they would be Defence witnesses.
20 MR. JORDASH: Well, if -- if -- if that is your --
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's if -- let me just verify whether I understood
22 your argument well.
23 MR. FARR: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Jordash.
25 MR. JORDASH: Well, if Your Honours' decision is to be taken as
1 the Prosecution only need establish a sufficient connection to the
2 witness's evidence, then I -- I don't pursue the argument. The objection
3 is on the record. We disagree with that decision, but I'll leave it at
4 that because that is the decision.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Out of an abundance of caution, the document will be
6 MFI'd, and we'll consider whether this document meets all the
7 requirements. And we might want to re-read our own guidance in this
8 respect so that we do not make any mistakes.
9 Madam Registrar, I think a number was already assigned.
10 THE REGISTRAR: P3077, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. FARR: Could we please have D672 on the screen now.
14 Q. And, sir, perhaps while that's coming up, I'll just remind you
15 this is a report that you discussed during your testimony on Tuesday of
16 last week, and I'd like to read to you a portion of your testimony.
17 You first said that this was one of the reports of the
18 then-State Security Service of the SAO Krajina. And this is at
19 transcript page 16719. You then went on to say:
20 "Based on the format of the document, I can tell you that this is
21 a report that the Knin centre, i.e., Dusan Orlovic, or one of his
22 associates in Knin, made to give an outline of current issues that were
23 sent to the Serb National Council and Milan Martic.
24 "Q. Do you know if this document was sent to anyone else?
25 "A. No."
1 On the next page of the transcript, you said:
2 "This document is, as its title suggests, a summary of current
3 information. However, since it is a report made by the State Security
4 Service, i.e., containing information gathered from associates,
5 collaborators in a sensitive way, from sources even political, we can say
6 that this was a fully confidential document that was only for the eyes of
7 Milan Martic and the Serb National Council."
8 Sir, how can you be sure that this report was not sent to anyone
9 other than Milan Martic and the Serb National Council?
10 A. I cannot be sure, but that was the practice in that period, so I
11 assumed that that's how it went.
12 Q. All right. I'm going to turn now to the contents of the
14 The first paragraph of the document says:
15 "There has been a clash between Babic and Martic regarding the
16 appointment of new SAO K ministers, particularly with regard to the MUP,
17 where someone who has been discredited has been chosen as minister.
18 Because of this, the police rejected the appointments of new supervisors.
19 Intensive work is under way to sort out this clash."
20 First, can you tell us briefly about this event, if you're
21 familiar with it?
22 A. This is a mistake by the minister. This was June. There was
23 no --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat
25 what he said.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- you're invited to repeat what you said,
2 because the interpreters didn't catch the whole of your answer.
3 You started by saying:
4 "This is a mistake by the minister. This was June."
5 And could you then repeat what you then said.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This term "minister" refers to the
7 chief of the Knin SUP. Ilija Prijic was elected, who came from Zagreb,
8 and the police in Knin, the local police, did not welcome him gladly.
9 MR. FARR:
10 Q. So in essence, it was a clash between Babic and Martic regarding
11 Prijic's appointment as the chief of the Knin SUP; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I think so. Yes.
13 Q. On Thursday, you told us that both Milan Martic and Milan Babic
14 were on the Serb National Council and in fact that Milan Babic was the
15 president of it.
16 Is it really your evidence that Dusan Orlovic or one of his
17 associates was sending a report to Milan Martic and Milan Babic about a
18 political clash between Milan Martic and Milan Babic?
19 A. In that period, the Serbian National Council had a lot of
20 members. I think there were more than ten. From all regions. When
21 we're talking about the SAO Krajina, that area was Banja, Kordun, Lika,
22 and Dalmatia and they had all had representatives in the council, and I
23 assume that that is the reason why the information was sent in this form.
24 And you can see from the first paragraph that everybody was careful not
25 to insult either one or to take sides.
1 Q. If we move down to the first paragraph under military affairs,
2 I'm going to read a portion. It says:
3 "There was a demonstration of force by the SAOK special forces in
4 Grahovo and Drvar. This was a case of premature improvisation by Martic
5 which was unsuccessfully opposed by Babic (at the request of Karadzic
6 from the BH SDS)."
7 Now once again, according to you, we have Orlovic or one of his
8 associates reporting to Martic and Babic about a clash between them and
9 also saying the Martic engaged in premature improvisation.
10 Sir, doesn't this show that the intended audience of this report
11 was not Milan Martic and the SNC?
12 A. I cannot say for whom this was. Perhaps it was Draskovic [as
13 interpreted who was an extremely influential person at the time. I
14 cannot know. This incident is a result of the Martic-Babic incident, so
15 probably it was necessary for this to be resolved or to settle down.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the name of the
18 person has not been recorded properly. And I don't see that it's been
19 marked for a check. It's line 13, page 54.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you said:
21 "I cannot say for whom this was. Perhaps it was Draskovic," but
22 that's how it's written. Could you repeat that name and perhaps spell
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That is not Draskovic. The
25 name of the person is David Rastovic. Rastovic.
1 MR. FARR:
2 Q. Sir, in the paragraph we just read, there's a mention of SAOK
3 special forces, and it characterises their actions as a case of premature
4 improvisation by Martic. I take it that the SAOK special forces being
5 referred to are police forces; is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And those were the forces trained at Golubic; correct?
8 A. This happened at the time that training was going on at Golubic.
9 It was not complete yet. At least not for that class.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, could I ask one clarifying question.
11 This David Rastovic you were talking about, was he a member of
12 the -- what again is the name of the -- was he a member of the Serbian
13 National Council?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I took him as an example, but
15 it's possible there were some other members too. But I think he was a
16 vice-president. One of the vice-presidents.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. FARR:
19 Q. Sir, moving to the next paragraph, it says:
20 "The local population in the village of Bratiskovci erected
21 barricades that turned out to be a hindrance to JNA movements. These
22 barricades were removed through the intervention of an SAOK special unit,
23 and the JNA units were allowed unhindered movement."
24 Is that also a reference to a special police unit?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. And then the next paragraph says:
2 "Armoured units of the JNA 5th Army District located at Plitvice
3 blockaded Udbina, (15 vehicles), and thereby also blockaded a detachment
4 of the SAO Krajina special forces that was training in the area."
5 Once again, police forces, sir?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And these two paragraphs show that there was good co-operation
8 between the RSK MUP and the JNA already in June of 1991; correct?
9 A. The sentence goes on to say that an adequate agreement with JNA
10 members from the federal SUP, the meeting -- the disagreement was
12 Don't misunderstand me, but the federal SUP from Serbia also sent
13 a large numbers of operatives who were trying to contribute to peace in
14 that area and who were covering all sorts of incidents in the area.
15 Q. Sir, the next paragraph says:
16 "New shipment of weapons and equipment arrived successfully."
17 Is it correct that this is a reference to a shipment of weapons
18 and equipment from the Serbian DB?
19 A. No, absolutely no. I don't know that the DB ever sent a single
20 pistol from Serbia. I think we're talking about the TO depot here in
21 Golubic that we talked about earlier. I don't know if this was given by
22 the army or not. I really cannot say who it came from, since I don't
24 As for the DB of Serbia, I assume that I would have heard had
25 this come from them.
1 MR. FARR: If we could now have the next page in B/C/S. And
2 we'll skip to the last paragraph of the document. I think we'll need the
3 next page in English as well. In fact, the last page in English. No,
4 sorry, it's the bottom of this page in English also.
5 Q. Sir, I want to read you the last line of this report. It says:
6 "The training of SDB strike and sabotage groups from the SAOK
7 border areas is going according to plan."
8 I'm now going to read you a portion of your testimony on
9 Thursday, starting with my question:
10 "Did the SAO Krajina DB ever have any armed formations or groups
11 of its own?
12 "A. No.
13 "Q. You were not aware of any of the SDB ever training its own
14 strike and sabotage groups; is that correct?
15 "A. As far as I know, the SDB of Krajina did not have such
17 And that's transcript page 16890.
18 Sir, this document contradicts your testimony, doesn't it?
19 A. I continue to assert that I never heard of any SDB groups.
20 At that point in time I was also in the border area. I had eight
21 operatives, and none of them had been in any sort of course, especially
22 not a strike and sabotage group course, so I don't know what
23 Dusan Orlovic meant when he talked about this. I never heard of that.
24 It would have been a generally known thing. The Krajina is a small area,
25 so if there were any SDB strike and sabotage units, that would have been
2 Q. So is it your evidence that this document is inaccurate? Is it
3 your evidence that it could have happened without your knowledge?
4 Which -- which of those case -- which -- which of those things are you
6 A. Precisely that. It's possible that it's incorrect, and it's
7 possible that they did exist, but I did not hear of them, nor do I know
8 anything about that.
9 Q. Sir, in fact, the real audience for this report was the DB of
10 Serbia; isn't that correct?
11 A. Could you please repeat what you said? I didn't hear the
12 interpreter completely.
13 Q. Sir, the truth is this is a document that was intended to be sent
14 to the DB of Serbia; isn't that true?
15 A. I cannot assert that. I cannot know that. I don't know why it
16 would be sent to the Serbian DB, if, at that point, the intelligence
17 group is in Knin. But this is just an assumption.
18 MR. FARR: Can we please have Exhibit P1304 on the screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
20 MR. JORDASH: I was just going to note the time and wonder if we
21 could have a break, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break. And we resume at
23 25 minutes to 1.00.
24 But, Mr. Farr, could you give us an indication as far as the time
25 is concerned. You were invited to see whether you could reduce the time
1 you would need --
2 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I've taken things somewhat out of order.
3 If I could have the break to take a look and provide my estimate when we
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which this allows us to consider it during the
6 break. So, therefore -- but please inform us after the break.
7 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, any indication?
12 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I think it will be approximately
13 two hours from this point.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you stay within the original estimate
15 although it was rather large.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. FARR: For the Chamber's information, I have been informed
18 I've used about two and a quarter hours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, two hours and 13 minutes.
20 MR. FARR:
21 Q. Sir, I just want to clarify one of my question that I asked you
22 earlier that I'm not sure was recorded in the transcript exactly the way
23 I asked you.
24 I had intended to ask you: To your knowledge, was the RSK DB
25 ever involved in any attempts to obtain weapons for the SVK or other
1 armed forces in the Krajina?
2 A. Specifically I don't know. But it's possible that these were
3 some quantities of official weapons that were there in the field and
4 every operative was issued an official pistol, a weapon.
5 Q. But not talking about for the needs of the RSK DB. Talking about
6 for the needs of the SVK, was the RSK DB, to your knowledge, ever
7 involved in efforts to obtain weapons for the SVK?
8 A. No, I really don't recall such a situation. As far as I know,
9 I -- I didn't come across something like that.
10 MR. FARR: Can we please have Exhibit P1304 on the screen.
11 Q. Sir, this is a letter dated the 30th of June, 1995. It's
12 addressed to President Martic, to General Mile Mrksic as commander of the
13 Main Staff of the SVK, to you as the chief of the RDB in Knin, and to
14 Jovica Stanisic as chief of the RDB in Belgrade.
15 And could we please now have the top of page 4 -- actually, can
16 we move into private session first, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 16987 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 MR. FARR: Can we now go back to the top of the first page in
10 both languages.
11 Q. Sir, at the top of the page we see a stamp indicating that this
12 document was received in Knin on 7 July 1995. Just below that, we see a
13 handwritten note saying that one copy of the document was given to the
14 commander of the SVK Main Staff and one copy was given to the chief of
15 the RDB.
16 That would have been you at this time; correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Are you able to tell us whose handwriting this is and whose
20 A. This is the handwriting of the director of this bureau by the
21 name of Djumic [phoen]. I mean, I suppose that he is the author of the
22 text so I guess the handwriting is his.
23 Q. And can we please have the next page in English.
24 Sir, the first sentence of this document reads as follows:
25 "Pursuant to the approval of the president of the RSK,
1 Mr. Milan Martic, as well as the request of the GS SVK, document number
2 3-282 dated 29 May 1995, through our authorised representative,
3 Mr. Simo Milovanovic, aka Pidzuka, we made contact with certain
4 organisations in Russia. The aim was to find solutions for the
5 acquisition of equipment and weaponry which are essential for the
7 Sir, do you have any knowledge of this attempt to obtain weapons
8 for the SVK?
9 A. No, I don't. Firstly I'm surprised at such a large quantity of
10 weapons, especially infantry weapons. Secondly, I don't know why
11 Russians, the Kozak formations would be involved. It seems to me that
12 this initiative lacks any seriousness, and it never happened. Let me say
13 that in that period of time, the Russian Federation recognised the
14 Republic of Croatia so we had no sort of assistance, save for donors
15 sending in humanitarian aid from across the world.
16 Q. Sir, do you recall receiving this letter?
17 A. Really, I don't. Perhaps I did receive it and discarded it as
18 lacking in seriousness. But I don't remember it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, could we try to find out. The witness was
20 referring to the large quantity, where -- I may have not have had
21 sufficient time to look at the document. But what he is referring to
23 You were surprised by the large quantity. Could you tell us what
24 you were referring to, Mr. Draca?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant was that there were so
1 many weapons in Krajina that there was no need for them to be obtained
2 elsewhere. We had so many tanks but we lacked crews. We had side-arms
3 that were left over from the JNA, as well as many other assets that we
4 had in sufficient quantities. So I'm really puzzled by this proposal.
5 And especially from Russia which was widely known at the time to hold a
6 neutral position of non-interference with Croatia.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, please proceed.
8 MR. FARR:
9 Q. Sir, do you know why Mr. Jarcevic, Milan Martic's advisor, would
10 consider it appropriate to send you a letter on this matter?
11 A. Well, since it does involve countries abroad and there is mention
12 made to Colonel Golubejev, a retired colonel, I suppose we needed to have
13 this letter in order to check its veracity, to see if it is realistic or
15 Q. And what do you mean, to see if it's realistic or not? Do you
16 mean the letter itself, whether the letter itself is authentic?
17 A. I don't mean the authenticity of the letter but, rather, of this
18 gentleman from Russia who is mentioned here. This because, in that
19 period of time, various delegations were coming from Russia, Ukraine, and
20 elsewhere, offering all sorts of things, and nothing came out of it,
21 ever. Because you can see that we are not mentioned here in this letter
22 anywhere, nor are we supposed to deal with the contents of the letter in
23 any way. That's why, I suppose.
24 Q. Okay. If we skip the next paragraph, I'd just like to read a
25 quote to you, and this is the paragraph that begins with the words: "The
1 Russian side ..."
2 It says:
3 "The Russian side is ready, through mediation by the Cossack
4 organisations, to deliver to the RSK equipment and weaponry under the
5 following conditions:
6 "The Russians need paper coverage for the export of goods. The
7 most realistic option would be if the papers would be made out to the
8 Bulgarian army for arms needs.
9 "The whole business would be conducted by Russian-Bulgarian
10 companies which trade in weapons. The heads of these companies are
11 exclusively former high-ranking officers of the KGB and the Bulgarian
12 intelligence services."
13 And if we could now have the top of the next page in B/C/S.
14 "The head of the company which would handle the deal is
15 retired general Stojmov [phoen], who now lives and works in Sofia. The
16 obligation of the Russian side would be the transport to a Black Sea port
17 or possibly to Varna in Bulgaria. The transit and transport through
18 Bulgaria by trailer-trucks would be done by the Bulgarian side. The
19 Bulgarians ask a 1 percent commission of the contracted detail for the
21 Sir, isn't the truth that the reason that both you and
22 Mr. Stanisic were copied on this letter is that this was intended to be a
23 secret arms transaction, and the assistance of both the DB of Serbia and
24 the RSK DB was required to secretly transfer weapons from the
25 Bulgarian/Serbian border into the RSK?
1 A. Had the author of the text had that in mind, one of the passages
2 would also have to do -- would have to contain a proposal for the DB to
3 be involved. My thinking is that this was intended as information for us
4 because whoever was more professionally involved in police work and
5 political work knew that it was impossible to carry this out. Two
6 countries that had recognised Croatia, i.e., Russia and Bulgaria,
7 allowing to use an arms shipment to -- allowing an arms shipment to pass
8 along their countries to come into a country which, as I said, had
9 sufficient quantities of weapons. I can see that the government
10 bureau -- or, rather, it's the first time that I'm seeing the government
11 bureau addressing a letter directly to Mr. Stanisic.
12 Q. Sir, you mentioned that Russia and Bulgaria had both recognised
13 Croatia. But isn't that precisely the reason that the DBs had to be
14 involved? Russia and Bulgaria couldn't do this openly. Therefore, they
15 had to involve your service and the Serbian service; is that correct?
16 A. I repeat: I don't see a single proposal, let alone an order for
17 the DBs -- for the two DBs to be involved in this. I said that I don't
18 recall the document at all, let alone any involvement on our part. We
19 weren't perceiving this as serious business in any way.
20 Q. Sir, on Thursday -- and I'm finished with that document, thank
22 On Thursday, you were asked whether you had ever met Mr. Stanisic
23 in your life and, if so, how many times. You indicated that you had met
24 him four or five times, usually at meetings, and you clarified that those
25 meetings took place either at the Pauk headquarters or in Belgrade And
1 that's at transcript 16834.
2 Were those four or five meetings the only times in your life you
3 met Mr. Stanisic or the only times during the war?
4 A. There was another opportunity during the visit to the Plitvice
5 Lakes National Park, when Mr. Stanisic came on the occasion of a peace
6 conference that was held in Republika Srpska, and he was seeking the
7 support of Milan Martic. I suppose, I wasn't there, but I know there was
8 a large delegation on behalf of us there at the Plitvice lakes. And we
9 met once again in 1995, after the fall of the Krajina, and never again
10 before my arrival at the Tribunal.
11 Q. And why did you meet in 1995 after the fall of the Krajina?
12 A. Well, I left him a couple of messages to receive me. I was
13 seeking employment. I went to Belgrade with my family and was
15 Q. And you left the Krajina, I assume, at the time of
16 Operation Storm; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And what date did you leave the Krajina?
19 A. I left Knin on the 5th of August. In other words, during
20 Operation Storm in 1995.
21 Q. And when did you arrive in Belgrade?
22 A. I think I arrived Belgrade some eight or nine days later, because
23 that was the duration of the trip through Republika Srpska. So it may
24 have been the 12th or the 13th of August.
25 Q. Now, you've indicated that you asked for a meeting with
1 Mr. Stanisic. Did that meeting occur?
2 A. Yes. Five or six days later, Mr. Stanisic received me.
3 Q. And what happened at that meeting?
4 A. I described to him what my personal problems were, and we also
5 discussed the fall of the Krajina, where the chance of establishing peace
6 was missed. He accommodated my request, and I filled out all the papers
7 to be employed with the RDB of Serbia.
8 Q. So you were employed with the RDB of Serbia essentially on the
9 intervention of Jovica Stanisic; is that correct?
10 A. You can put it that way.
11 Q. And you kept that job -- or a job in the successor, BIA, for
12 12 years until you retired; correct?
13 A. Yes. I continued in my job in the BIA, or what was subsequently
14 the BIA.
15 Q. Had you obtained Serbian citizenship at the time that you got
16 your job in the Serbian DB?
17 A. Naturally I applied for citizenship. However, this was a very
18 slow process at the time. Since most of the 300.000 refugees had
19 applied, it took some time but eventually I got Serbian citizenship.
20 Q. Do you know approximately when?
21 A. There were technical difficulties where, on one occasion, the
22 papers were misplaced; on another, it was lost as the documents were
23 relocated during bombing. Eventually it was in autumn of 1999 or 2000
24 that I obtained citizenship.
25 Q. As a technical matter, under Serbian law, were you permitted to
1 be an employee of the Serbian DB without holding Serbian citizenship?
2 A. As far as I remember, government adopted bylaws at the time,
3 whereby refugees were able to exercise certain rights as soon as they
4 applied. So there was an amendment to the legislation. I just can't
5 remember when exactly that was.
6 Q. Is it safe to say that it had not happened by the 28th of August,
7 1995, when Mr. Stanisic signed your decision on employment?
8 A. Let me say, first of all, that it doesn't only involve the MUP or
9 the RDB. All the other ministries, ministry of energy, ministry of
10 finance, all the various government agencies such as accountancies at
11 central bank, all of them admitted such applicants, and, if somebody
12 was -- could not prove that they had employment at the time that they
13 obtained citizenship, they would be dismissed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the question was whether those bylaws had
15 already been adopted on the 28th of August. Now we got a lot of
16 explanation on other matters but not an answer to the question.
17 Were those bylaws adopted when you were appointed?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. But I
19 suppose that they were. Because a great many people were employed
20 already on the 1st of September.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is: I don't know, but practice was
22 that persons were employed already.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. FARR:
25 Q. Sir, during your employment with the Serbian DB, did you work
1 directly with Mr. Stanisic or Mr. Simatovic?
2 A. No.
3 MR. FARR: Your Honours, we've uploaded the excerpts from the
4 witness's personnel file as 65 ter 6368. We would ask that those be
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
7 MR. JORDASH: I'm just wondering what the relevance is, given the
8 witness's answers.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
10 MR. FARR: Your Honour, it's essentially the same. It's to
11 corroborate the testimony of the witness on that point, to indicate his
12 history of employment with the Serbian DB.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Is there -- do we need the details? We know that it
14 was 12 years starting on the 28th of August, 1995. Are we supposed to
15 look at any of the -- and apparently there is no disagreement about that,
16 Mr. Jordash.
17 MR. FARR: I'll withdraw it, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Why do we need the details, unless there's any
19 specific reason to --
20 MR. FARR: That was -- that was the purpose.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That was the purpose. Then you withdraw your --
22 MR. FARR: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
24 MR. FARR: Can we please have Exhibit P2670 on the screen.
25 Q. Sir, this is a report that you were shown during your direct
1 examination. You said that it was a document produced by the
2 Territorial Defence Staff. You were asked the reason that the report was
3 addressed to Frenki, among others. And you said:
4 "But I suppose that when Mr. Dragisic submitted this report to
5 Frenki, the purpose was for him to be informed on a daily basis, because
6 he told us that one of his tasks during his stay in the area of Knin was
7 to collect information on a daily basis. And as this person was a close
8 relative to Martic, I suppose that Martic told Dragisic that he should
9 provide this type of information to Frenki."
10 Sir, Milan Martic was aware of Mr. Simatovic's presence in the
11 Krajina at the time and he supported Mr. Simatovic's mission in the
12 Krajina; correct?
13 A. I suppose so. Krajina was small, and it was unavoidable. And
14 the Serbian National Council had to be aware of at least some of the
15 basic issues. Even if he had come in illegally, he probably judged at
16 some point that he to come out into the open in order not to get into
17 some sort of contradiction with people in Knin.
18 Q. Sir, you answered the first part of my question, which was
19 Martic's awareness.
20 The second part is: Mr. Martic supported Mr. Simatovic's mission
21 in the Krajina; correct?
22 A. I'm not able to know if he personally supported it or not. I
23 never discussed the issue with him, and especially not in that period of
24 time when we barely knew each other.
25 Q. You indicated that you did know that it was Martic who told
1 Dragisic to provide this type of information to Frenki, though. Doesn't
2 that indicate that Martic was supporting Mr. Simatovic's mission to
3 gather information?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can my learned friend accurately
7 quote the witness. The witness said, "I suppose." He didn't say that he
8 knew. And I think that my learned friend even read it out a couple of
9 lines back.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
11 MR. FARR: Mr. Petrovic is correct. I'll reformulate.
12 Q. Sir, you told us that you suppose that Martic told Dragisic to
13 provide this type of information to Frenki. Why do you suppose that?
14 A. Because all of us, from the smallest child to the oldest
15 inhabitant of Krajina, hoped that assistance would come from Serbia, that
16 conflicts would be averted, and that peace would prevail. And even at
17 that time it was quite obvious that we weren't able to achieve that
18 without the help of Serbia. Of course, this is an assumption on my part.
19 What his direct knowledge about it was is something that I cannot
20 possibly know.
21 Q. Can we now just briefly look at the addressee list and identify
22 the other people there who are not identified by name.
23 Starting with the president of the National Defence Council of
24 the SAO Krajina. Was that Babic?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. The secretary of the SUP of SAO Krajina. Was that Martic?
2 A. I'm not sure if it was Martic or Prijic. One of the two.
3 Q. And just to be clear, you're talking about the secretary of the
4 SUP of Krajina, not the SUP of Knin.
5 A. At that time, the secretary of the SUP in Knin was also the
6 secretary of -- for the SAO Krajina.
7 Q. And this also says ODB, which has been translated as organ of
8 state security. Can you tell us who that would have gone to in the ODB?
9 A. To Dusan Orlovic. Only to him. Or to the person substituting
10 him on that day, if he was absent.
11 Q. And, finally, the SAO Krajina commander. Who was that?
12 A. I noticed this formulation when I was reading the first document.
13 We didn't have an SAO Krajina commander at the time. There was the JNA.
14 So I suppose that this refers to Milan Martic.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. FARR: Can we now please have P1122 on the screen.
17 Q. Sir, this is a report in essentially the same format as the one
18 we just looked at. The addressees are slightly different.
19 Starting with the Supreme Commander of the SAO Krajina TO, can
20 you tell us who that would have been, at this time, on the 6th of August,
22 A. The dates of both reports are close together, and it's impossible
23 in such a short period to have such political changes, to have a
24 Supreme Commander named. Obviously it was the desire of the author to
25 flatter Milan Martic, because, as far as I know, nobody had a title like
1 that assigned to them by the National Council or the government,
2 especially not to him. As far as the defence of the Krajina is
3 concerned, he was the most popular person.
4 Q. Looking at the first paragraph of the document, and if we could
5 scroll down in English, please, it says:
6 "Due to the visit of the SFRJ vice-president, Branko Kostic, and
7 the peace delegation, Milan Martic has issued an order for a cease-fire
8 except in the event of direct attack."
9 Does this show that Milan Martic had command authority over the
10 TO at this time?
11 A. Yes. It could be considered that Martic - I don't know whether
12 personally, directly but he worked in line with decisions of the
13 Serbian National Council, whereby the Krajina [as interpreted] was
14 outside of all of these things that I'm talking about, and the
15 Territorial Defence and the local police were part of the Serbian
16 National Council, or the National Defence Council.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, page 73, line 25,
20 "While the Krajina was outside of all of these things."
21 The witness said something else. Perhaps we can clarify that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you said? And I read
23 the part not contested:
24 "But he worked in line with decisions of the Serbian National
25 Council whereby," and then you said something about the Krajina.
1 Could you repeat that.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not the Krajina but the JNA was
3 outside of the organisational scheme of the Serbian National Council, if
4 I may put it like that specifically.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
6 MR. FARR: I think we'll need the next page in English.
7 Q. Now I'm interested in the portion that says:
8 "According to information from the DB, 11 people were killed and
9 25 wounded during the fighting in the Velika Glava and Bratiskovci area,
10 and several buildings were destroyed."
11 Can you tell us why it was the DB that was providing this
12 information to the TO?
13 A. The state security was established precisely because of that, so
14 that the Serbian National Council, as the key body, would not receive
15 information exclusively from the JNA military security. At that point in
16 time, it was considered to be quite unreliable. Well, that it was the
17 most unreliable organ as far as the SAO Krajina was concerned. The DB
18 compiled all the information that had to do with all the tensions, the
19 conflict, and even there was information about the conduct of the
20 Yugoslav People's Army units, what their morale was, and things like
22 Q. So in other words, it's fair to say that you were gathering
23 military information?
24 A. As I said earlier about the document or the dispatch about the
25 situation, 95 per cent of information in the Krajina at the time referred
1 to movements of enemy troops in relation to us at the time. It's war, so
2 that was a priority above all other priorities.
3 Q. I'd now like to turn to your testimony about Captain Dragan.
4 At transcript page 16711, Judge Orie asked you about what had
5 been agreed between Milan Martic and the Serb National Council regarding
6 Captain Dragan's activities. Part of your answer was as follows:
7 "Martic said that he had proposed to the Serb National Council,
8 which agreed, that Captain Dragan should, with regard to the Golubic
9 centre which had been working from earlier on, August of 1991," which you
10 later corrected to 1990, "put together a serious infantry course. And my
11 understanding was that this was to be the context of his activities, that
12 he should organise and conduct the training of police personnel."
13 Sir, the reason that police personnel needed what you called a
14 serious infantry course was because they were to be used in combat;
16 A. At the beginning, as I said, in late August 1990, the camp was
17 established in order to train people as soon as possible for regular
18 police work in areas that were abandoned by the Croats.
19 As the situation in the field developed, meaning when it was
20 already evident that conflict could not be avoided, the Serbian National
21 Council was not sure in the -- about the decisions of the
22 Yugoslav People's Army and they considered that the police should be
23 trained, the active and the reserve police forces, to be able to put up a
24 defence. In all of that, they were seriously counting on the Golubic
25 centre to train the existing members as well as new recruits who could
1 join even though there were problems to find them because the JNA reserve
2 forces mostly had been manned by generally new people who were mobilised.
3 So this decision was made in 1991, May 1991, when it was more
4 than clear that there would be clashes. And at that time it was still
5 unclear as to what the position and the conduct of the JNA would be in
6 the event that Croatia should attack Krajina.
7 Q. At transcript page 16709, you were discussing Frenki's attitude
8 towards Captain Dragan. You said Mr. Simatovic told you to keep an eye
9 on Captain Dragan's activities. On the next page you expanded on this
10 answer, saying:
11 "Well, as I said a moment ago, that I should keep an eye on his
12 activities that went outside the scope agreed with the Serb National
13 Council and Milan Martic, i.e., his attempts to head the TO and to become
14 politically engaged in the Krajina. His frequent tours accompanied by
15 people who came from Serbia, whom he knew nothing of."
16 Just to be clear, Mr. Simatovic never expressed any kind of
17 disapproval of Captain Dragan's activities that had been agreed with
18 Martic and the Serb National Council, that is, the course at Golubic;
20 A. Mr. Simatovic, at least in this private conversation, was
21 completely against the idea of him coming to the Krajina, so that we did
22 not expand on that. But I believe that he was against the idea also of
23 him doing what he was doing in Golubic. He personally told me that he
24 was opposed to that idea of anyone engaging Captain Dragan in the Krajina
25 at all.
1 Q. Sir, in your testimony originally, you said that:
2 "... I should keep an eye on his activities that went outside the
3 scope agreed with the Serb National Council and Milan Martic."
4 Why did you go out of your way to specify that that's what
5 Mr. Simatovic disapproved of, if, as you now say, according to you, he
6 disapproved of his presence entirely?
7 A. Because I assume that Mr. Simatovic could not prevent him, if the
8 Serbian National Council gave him the mandate to manage the centre and
9 conduct training for people. He could just express his personal position
10 in a conversation with me.
11 Q. At transcript page 16698, you discuss a meeting attended by
12 yourself, Zdravko Zecevic, Milan Martic and Captain Dragan in May 1991.
13 You were asked whether Martic said anything about Captain Dragan and your
14 answer was:
15 "Yes. He was quite taken by him. He was full of praise for
17 You go on to describe the need for a training course for police.
18 And then a bit farther down you say:
19 "And Martic told Zecevic and myself that Captain Dragan was going
20 to be taking this course, that he was actually going to be organising a
21 course in Golubic."
22 Sir, as far as you could tell, this was a time of close and
23 enthusiastic co-operation between Captain Dragan and Milan Martic;
25 A. At that point in time, yes, that is correct.
1 Q. Sir, I'd now like to ask you about what you say is
2 Mr. Simatovic's function in the Krajina. You testified that
3 Mr. Simatovic told you his purpose there was:
4 "That he needed intelligence from the Krajina area so that
5 Belgrade could take a proper attitude, that is to say, the state
6 leadership of Serbia, and that they could do that in good time."
7 That's at transcript page 16706 to 16707.
8 Then you go on to say that you asked him if he could help you
9 too, specifically:
10 "I asked him to submit information to us in good time, if he
11 could, in case that the political leadership in Belgrade obtained such
12 information. What we were primarily interested in at the time was a
13 possible Croatian attack on our area."
14 So now you have mentioned Mr. Simatovic taking information from
15 the Krajina to the state leadership of Serbia and Belgrade and bringing
16 information from the political leadership in Belgrade to you in the
18 Is it accurate to say that Mr. Simatovic served as a line of
19 communication between the Belgrade authorities and the authorities in the
21 A. I cannot say that since I'm going back to my original position in
22 my statement. We spoke as one professional to another. I asked him -- I
23 wasn't asking him to report back to Martic or the Serbian National
24 Council. I asked him if it was possible if he would let me know in a
25 timely manner, and then I could perhaps take back that information to
1 Martic. But this was our communication, where you can see that he was
2 not directly informing the council or Martic, as I was asking him to do
3 something like that, to report back to me about it, in particular,
4 because of the threat directed at the border areas, which is something
5 that we had talked about earlier.
6 Q. You just said: "I asked him if it was possible if he would let
7 me know in a timely manner and I could perhaps take back that information
8 to Martic."
9 Now Mr. Simatovic, as a DB professional, would have assumed that
10 you were going to do that; correct?
11 A. I didn't understand this last part of the question.
12 Q. You indicated that Mr. Simatovic did not, according to you,
13 report directly to Martic, that he gave information for you -- to you.
14 And then you said:
15 "... and I could perhaps take back that information to Martic."
16 As far as you know -- as far as you knew at the time,
17 Mr. Simatovic knew that you would provide any useful information he gave
18 you to Milan Martic and the other Krajina leaders; correct?
19 A. Well, perhaps he could assume that this would happen, but we did
20 not speak specifically about the pathways of reporting and reporting
21 back. It was an informal conversation with a man from the service.
22 Q. Did Mr. Simatovic ever bring you information about the views of
23 Serbian government officials about the future of the RSK?
24 A. No. This never happened, unfortunately, because shortly after
25 that, he left. From the time that we met, we didn't really have the
1 opportunity to meet often. Already in early August, he left the RSK.
2 Q. You've just indicated that you didn't have the opportunity to
3 meet often. Was one of the reasons for that the fact that you were
4 living and working in Benkovac during the entire time that you know
5 Mr. Simatovic to have been in the Krajina?
6 A. That is correct. I was living and working in Benkovac at the
7 time. Once a week I would come to Knin, or once every ten days, but
8 there were no pagers or mobile telephones then. If we encountered each
9 other, then we would meet. He didn't go to any place regularly where I
10 would know where to meet him.
11 Q. At page 16704 of the transcript, you said that you heard that
12 Mr. Simatovic had a conspiratorial apartment. Did you ever learn where
13 this apartment was located?
14 A. No, I didn't know where his clandestine apartment was. Other
15 than that it was in Knin.
16 Q. And at transcript page 16705, you said of conspiratorial and
17 clandestine apartments in general:
18 "Such an apartment would be rented only in order to hold secret
19 meetings and have secret contacts with the sources and agents to provide
20 secret information when we didn't want anyone to see that we would meet
21 such persons there."
22 Sir, you accept that Mr. Simatovic could have met with people in
23 this apartment without you knowing about it; correct?
24 A. That is correct. You are right.
25 Q. And, in fact, he could have met with people elsewhere in Knin or
1 elsewhere in the Krajina without you necessarily finding out about it;
2 correct? You might have found out; you might not.
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. At page 16707, you were talking about your exchange of
5 information with Mr. Simatovic. You were asked whether it was usual for
6 services to exchange information with each other. And you said:
7 "Yes. In principle, that's correct. But it depends from one
8 situation to another. And when I say that, I primarily have in mind the
9 following. When we sit down together, we do not exchange everything,
10 each one of us, but we narrow it down to what pertains to the specific
11 interests of each side at that particular moment."
12 You accept that Mr. Simatovic may have known things that he
13 didn't tell you; correct?
14 A. Yes, it's possible.
15 Q. And do you also accept that Mr. Simatovic could have gone places
16 or done things in the Krajina that you don't know about? And, as a
17 concrete example, Mr. Simatovic could have been involved in the training
18 of special units without your knowledge; correct?
19 A. Well, that is impossible. It's such a small community,
20 especially if you take part in training of more than 100 people. Then
21 it's impossible for it to be not known about. If it is done in the
23 As for moving around, the villages are quite small. All the
24 people are afraid. If anybody comes from the outside, immediately
25 there's word of that. Even if a journalist comes, that would go around
1 and be discovered fairly quickly.
2 As for him moving in the field, at that point in time, it would
3 have been very difficult for it to be -- to remain secret. And this, in
4 particular, would apply to any kind of training that was being conducted.
5 Q. Sir, earlier in your testimony we looked at the SAO Krajina DB
6 report from June of 1991, which indicated that the SDB was training
7 strike and sabotage groups. And I asked you whether it was your position
8 that the document was incorrect, or whether it was your position that
9 such units could have existed and you simply didn't know about it. You
10 allowed for both possibilities.
11 If it's possible that units existed without your knowledge, how
12 can you claim that you necessarily would have known every individual
13 involved in their training?
14 A. At that time, we didn't refer to Golubic at all. I don't know if
15 anybody was doing any training anywhere. I don't really know of any
16 strike and sabotage units, but it's true that no training was conducted
17 for such groups. The Krajina is small, and it's would easily get around
18 if such groups were there. And there would be documents and some traces
19 of that. I didn't know of any such action of any group of that kind that
20 existed in the field.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, translation, page 82,
23 lines 20, the witness mentioned training and something else, which would
24 have to be known.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 You -- on our transcript, we read, Witness, that -- that you
3 "... but it's true that no training was conducted ..."
4 Did you refer to anything else than training?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly now
6 what -- what it's about, whether I mentioned something or not. I really
7 cannot remember.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, I leave it to you whether you want to
9 further pursue the matter. I don't know how important it is, what is
10 missing, but ...
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's important for
12 understanding and for the further course of the questions. But I'm not
13 going to be insisting on that right now. If need be, we can always deal
14 with that section.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr -- Mr. Farr, any objection if Mr. Petrovic
16 would try to refresh the memory of the witness of what he said a minute
17 ago. We will always -- we'll be able to verify that, so Mr. Petrovic
18 will be very honest in this respect because there's always a possibility
19 to check that.
20 MR. FARR: No objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: What did you hear, Mr. Petrovic, which was not
22 translated? Training and?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he talked about
24 activities. I heard that clearly. Well, as for whether the witness
25 remembers that or not is something that can easily be checked on the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, I leave it to you whether you want to give
3 it any follow-up or whether we leave it to this.
4 We have three minutes left. If you have a few questions fine,
5 but ...
6 MR. FARR: I think I can use the time, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. FARR:
9 Q. At transcript page 16709, you said that Mr. Simatovic never gave
10 you money, technical assistance, equipment, or instructions. But he
11 could have given all of those things to Mr. Martic in Knin and you would
12 not necessarily have known about it; correct?
13 A. Had this happened, Martic would have conveyed that to us, for
14 sure. Because Martic was not a person prone to keeping such things
15 secret. He would say it with pride that he received such and such a
16 thing through such and such a person, from Serbia, so it seems pretty
17 implausible that all of this was given to Martic by Simatovic, and not
18 Orlovic or someone else.
19 Q. And did Martic ever tell that you Mr. Simatovic had provided him
20 with money, weapons, technical assistance or instructions?
21 A. No. Martic never told me that. But I know he didn't like him
22 for some reason. He couldn't wait for him to go back. And then when
23 Simatovic went back to Belgrade, Martic was the first to tell me - not
24 just me - but a group of operatives from Benkovac at a meeting that
25 Simatovic had left and that, in his opinion, his stay was not a positive
1 one. Precisely that is what he was probably thinking of, that he didn't
2 give him anything. Because he -- or that he had perhaps asked for
3 something from him and didn't get it. But Martic didn't say that he ever
4 got anything from Simatovic.
5 MR. FARR: It's a good time, Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Farr.
7 Mr. Draca, I'd like to again remind you that you should not speak
8 or communicate in any other way with anyone about your testimony, whether
9 given today or last week, or still to be given. I would like to see you
10 back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.
11 You may follow the usher. Meanwhile --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just ask something, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since there is heavy weather in
15 Serbia, and my parents live outside of Belgrade and have been caked in
16 snow, I am in touch with my wife, and I would very much like to know when
17 my testimony will be over, if you can set a time on that. I have been
18 here for a full 11 days.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware of that, Mr. Draca, and I do understand
20 your concerns.
21 One hour tomorrow, Mr. Farr?
22 MR. FARR: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: How much time for the other parties?
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm convinced that we
25 will finish this witness's testimony tomorrow. I can't be sure about the
1 time I'm going to need, but it will definitely not exceed tomorrow's day
2 of work.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No. But there are other parties as well.
4 Mr. Jordash.
5 MR. JORDASH: About 35 minutes, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 35 minutes.
7 There's a fair chance that we would be able to conclude your
8 testimony tomorrow, and we will do our utmost best to achieve that, which
9 would mean then that you would be excused on from quarter to 2.00 in the
10 afternoon. I fully understand your concerns.
11 Apart from that, I put on the record that this morning I said
12 something about numbers assigned relating to both D683 and P3073. There
13 may be further inaccuracies in that, and therefore, the Registry will
14 file a memo so that everything will be clear finally.
15 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, the
16 7th of February, at 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom --
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, it's the 8th of February. But the time
19 and the courtroom were indicated correctly, 9.00, Courtroom II.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of
22 February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.