1 Thursday, 9 February 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There are no preliminaries, so, therefore, could the witness be
12 brought into the courtroom.
13 Meanwhile, I will deal with a few matters.
14 The first. The Prosecution has informed the Chamber and the
15 Defence through an informal communication, which is hereby on the record,
16 that it would not seek leave to re-call witnesses Corbic or Lekovic.
17 Witness Corbic had been given an instruction not to speak to
18 anyone about his testimony pending the Prosecution's final position on a
19 possible re-call, and, accordingly, VWS is hereby instructed to inform
20 Witness Corbic that the given instruction is now lifted.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gagic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound
25 by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday. That is, that you'll
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And
2 Mr. Bakrac will now continue his examination.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
5 morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
6 WITNESS: GVOZDEN GAGIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gagic, good morning.
10 Mr. Gagic, yesterday before we finished for the day, you said
11 how, in 1991, you were an inspector and that later you were given a rank,
12 that this was in late 1993 or early 1994, when ranks were introduced to
13 the State Security Department.
14 Are you able to tell us which rank you received?
15 A. The first rank that I received was major. Later, I was
16 lieutenant-colonel, then colonel, and I retired with the rank of colonel.
17 Q. Are you able to tell us when the State Security Department
18 introduced ranks?
19 A. I think that ranks were introduced to the State Security
20 Department quite late, in comparison to the public security department.
21 I think that this happened some four or five, or even more, years later
22 than in the public security department.
23 Q. When you say four, five years later, are you able to more closely
24 state the time-period?
25 A. Well, it was sometime in 1996 or 1997.
1 Q. Mr. Gagic, I would now like to focus on early 1991 and the crisis
2 in Yugoslavia at the time.
3 Was there any situation in 1991 at the public security department
4 of the MUP that was specific at that time?
5 A. Sometime in 1991, or, actually, even in late 1990, policemen from
6 Croatia began to arrive at the MUP who had lost their jobs, either
7 because they left the service on their own, or because they were
8 dismissed from their jobs because of some violations which the Croatian
9 authorities at the time believed to be serious violations of work duty
10 but, in fact, were just minor infringements.
11 Q. And were you interested to know what was going on; and was there
12 any kind of recommendation in relation to that?
13 A. Yes, I did become interested for a number of reasons.
14 First of all, it was the nature of my work, even before, to
15 communicate with large number of policemen from other republics as well,
16 from Macedonia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro.
17 Property crimes are crimes of such a nature that criminals commit crimes
18 throughout the whole territory and police co-operation was absolutely
19 necessary, even privately. There was private conversation, telephone
20 calls, exchange of information, other than the official forms of
21 communication or co-operation. So that I knew a large number of
22 policemen who were in Croatia and a number of those policemen came to
23 Serbia. I became personally interested because the majority of them
24 contacted me, asking me to help them to resolve their status. I was
25 personally interested and then the position was taken by the MUP of
1 Serbia leadership to allow those policemen to receive employment
2 relatively quickly without going through the entire procedures to be
3 admitted by fulfilling all the requirements and going through the regular
4 procedure, but without having to wait very long for this to be completed.
5 Q. When you say the decision was taken at the highest level, what
6 are you thinking of? Who made this decision on the employment of these
8 A. This decision was made by the minister of the interior but it was
9 in the form of a recommendation. It wasn't -- or at least I don't know
10 that decision was made in the form of a binding order or anything like
11 that. It was done in the form of a recommendation for people who were
12 already policemen and who were without work to be admitted and for them
13 to just continue with work, to receive assistance with accommodation.
14 Actually, to help them normalise relations. This was done by the
15 minister because the policemen did not only come to Belgrade. These
16 policemen from Croatia were arriving in Novi Sad, Kragujevac. So this
17 was a decision at the level of the ministry, or the recommendation, and
18 it did not apply only to Belgrade.
19 Q. Mr. Gagic, I would now ask you to look at a document; D303. And
20 while we're waiting --
21 THE REGISTRAR: This document is under seal, Your Honours.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was just about to say
23 that. It is under seal, so I would like to move into private session for
24 this, please.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 17109-17114 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know --
16 actually over the break I will check why it is MFI'd and we will see if
17 we are going to be tendered or not.
18 JUDGE ORIE: There is still a provenance issue pending. And that
19 is, I think D303 was obtained from Mr. Stanisic and that the Stanisic
20 Defence was trying to obtain a copy from the -- an official copy from the
21 Serb authorities.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Gagic, let me repeat the question since we've discussed other
25 issues in the meantime.
1 Can you date this footage, when it was that Mr. Kostic,
2 vice-president of the SFRY Presidency, came to Borovo Selo?
3 A. Judging from the footage, I'd say that it took place a month or
4 two later; sometime in the month of July of 1991.
5 I say that because of the historic date referred to by
6 Branko Kostic. I also base my assessment on the fact that he said that
7 he had just come over from that other gathering. So I guess it must be
8 the month of July. At any rate, a couple of months after the events in
9 Borovo Selo.
10 Q. Does this video-clip indicate that at least some members of the
11 SFRY Presidency had given their support?
12 A. Well, the discussions we heard do indicate that the President of
13 the Presidency is promising to the people there that he would provide
14 them with protection. So this was no political campaigning, where
15 promises are given. Rather, people are given promises that they would be
16 protected from an escalation of conflicts and that they would be provided
17 safety to alleviate the fears that they felt towards the Croatian police.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can 2D1055.1 become admitted. But
19 maybe MFI'd until my Case Manager produces the Registry with a disc.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any possibility to MFI a document, Madam
21 Registrar, if you don't have the underlying material? That is possible,
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: We have no objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then the number to be assigned
25 Madam Registrar would be?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- video 2D1055.1 will receive number
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Can we now look at another video-clip, which I believe follows
7 precisely up on what you said. This is 2D1055.2 from the same batch of
8 materials disclosed to us by the Prosecution. And the time is 4 minutes,
9 7 seconds to 6 minutes, 25 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
12 "Branko Kostic: Europe and the world remember those policies
13 very well. I'm convinced that Europe and the world will finally realise
14 today what this policy means and the disastrous effects that such a
15 policy could have, not only for the Serbian people in this territory of
16 Croatia which is most directly threatened but also the consequences that
17 such a policy could have in Europe in general.
18 "Our federal organs, particularly the Federal Executive Council,
19 have so far seriously concealed this topic as the circumstances are as
20 they are. It is about the endangered area and where the Serbian people
21 are suffering, but the Federal Executive Council does not care less. In
22 this and in all of the other cases, it is must be reported to full extent
23 and material-wise regardless of the ethnic composition of population to
24 which the disaster happened.
25 "We will do everything in our power in order for the JNA, which
1 is strong, powerful, which has the wherewithal, now more than ever, that
2 it may offer help and support to all the parts of the people who will be
3 endangered or already are, regardless of where they are situated.
4 "Today it is the Serbian people in Croatia who are at risk, and
5 should the events develop in such a way as no one would wish to, we do
6 not exclude the possibility that some other people may be endangered in
7 some other areas and our army must be the force as a proper national army
8 that will protect each and every one of our endangered citizens,
9 regardless of their nationality, religious affiliation or political
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, before you ask questions, the Chamber
12 wonders to what extent it would assist to see all the details of what
13 Mr. Kostic is telling here. First of all, is there any dispute about
14 Kostic going to that area approximately that time and in support of the
15 Serb cause at that moment and giving -- delivering speeches, giving
16 political support.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: We do not dispute what is seen in the video, which
18 I think supports Your Honour's assertion, but we just do not dispute that
19 he made this speech.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check what you ...
21 It's not entirely clear to me, Ms. Friedman. You say you do not
22 dispute what is seen in the video but you just do not assert he made what
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: We -- we resist agreeing to facts which we cannot
25 check in great detail on the spot, but we do not dispute the authenticity
1 of this video.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Bakrac, the exact words, reading that and asking the witness
4 whether this indicates that someone from the Presidency came to give
5 support, I mean, that's clear. If he is vice-president, of course, he is
6 coming -- what exactly are we supposed to learn from this? What are you
7 exactly establishing? The specific words, or that he was there, or that
8 there was political support or ...
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to buttress our case,
10 and to challenge the case of the Prosecution that, in 1991, joint
11 criminal enterprise commence, one in which my client participated, I want
12 to depict a situation where the Presidency of the SFRY was still
13 operational. And not only that. It got engaged - and the witness will
14 speak about it - through the presence of the JNA as a dominant force in
15 Slavonia, and this is the better part of the indictment against my
17 In the relevant part, it is stated that he substantially
18 supports, assists, and participates in the joint criminal enterprise
19 which was reflected in the crimes committed in that area.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will not stop you. But to say that it's
22 convinced that it greatly assists to look at this material to reach
23 conclusions, as you suggested, is -- that would be an overstatement.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not going to
1 exaggerate. I have finished there. I simply wanted to show and
2 illustrate the genesis of how this witness was engaged.
3 Q. So, Mr. Gagic, after these addresses by Mr. Kostic, were there
4 any movements, shifts, and did the Yugoslav People's Army come out of its
6 A. Already, it was noted in that period that the Yugoslav People's
7 Army was taking a more active role in the protection of the civilian
8 population and was actually becoming the only factor of protection of the
9 civilian population along with the self-organisation of the local
10 population. This is a period when the forming of the TO staffs began in
11 that territory, when the -- when some other systems began to function
12 within the military functions for the purpose of protecting the civilian
14 Q. You were -- we are talking these clips that we saw. You said it
15 was July 1991. After July 1991, did the MUP of the Republic of Serbia,
16 in a way, get involved in the activities; and, if it did, in what way?
17 Activities relating to the protection of the Serbian population.
18 A. The Serbian MUP was not authorised to participate actively and
19 directly in terms of its presence in the territory of the Republic of
20 Croatia for the protection of the Serbian population, so that everything
21 that was possibly done in terms of protection and had to do with the MUP
22 of Serbia was done through the authorised military organs.
23 Q. Did the forming of some units occur which were sent to that area
24 as part of the MUP?
25 A. Some two months later, approximately, two units were formed. I
1 note -- or I emphasise these were volunteer units at the level of the
2 Belgrade SUP. Actually, at the level of the Ministry of the Interior,
3 but this was done from employees working at the Belgrade SUP, primarily
4 from staff who voluntarily joined those units. And they -- before they
5 worked in the Belgrade SUP, they had worked in the area of the
6 Republic of Croatia. These were policemen who were dismissed or who had
7 left their jobs, had been given jobs in the Belgrade SUP. Now they
8 joined these volunteer units. One of those two units went to Knin and
9 the other one, the other unit went to Dalj.
10 Q. You said that these two units, which they joined as volunteers,
11 mostly comprised policemen who, before that, were thrown out of Croatia,
12 and then, after that, had gotten jobs in Belgrade. And, if so, were
13 there any people who did not hail from Croatia, were not thrown out of
14 Croatia, but did join these police units? Were there such people?
15 A. The unit that I myself joined had just two of us who were not
16 originally from Croatia and were not previously policemen in Croatia. I
17 had spent my whole work history in Serbia. There was another man who
18 came from Krusevac and who worked in one of the police stations in the
19 Belgrade area. All the other members - and there were some 40 of us -
20 were members of the Croatian police force who had become unemployed of
21 their own free will due to threats or were dismissed. They had come to
22 Belgrade, and then, after that, had joined this unit.
23 Q. Based on what you know, are you able to tell us, other than these
24 two units, you say one went to Knin and then this one of yours to
25 Slavonia, were there any other units or any other members of the
1 Serbian MUP who went to Slavonia in an organised manner or not?
2 A. As for them going to Slavonia in an organised way, at that time,
3 there were no other such units or any other formations. I am not ruling
4 out the possibility that, individually, for a day or two or for a weekend
5 or for the odd holiday day, policemen went from Serbia, if they hailed
6 from such an area, they went to visit their families and things like
8 As for them leaving in an organised way, for the purposes of
9 protecting the population over there, no one else went from Serbia other
10 than those two units.
11 Q. And these two units, are you able to tell us which sector they
12 belonged to in the MUP of Serbia?
13 A. Both units belonged to the public security department, and they
14 comprised policemen who were employed at the Belgrade SUP.
15 Q. We're going to focus on this unit that went to Slavonia, and from
16 what I understand, you went with the unit.
17 First, my question is this: You went to that area as what sort
18 of formation?
19 A. I apologise. I don't want it to seem if I overlooked that
21 When we're talking about the departure of these units, I thought
22 that this would imply but perhaps it is important for me to say that. In
23 the area of Slavonia, a number of SAJ, "Specijalna Antiteroristicka
24 Jedinica," special anti-terrorist units, headed by Radovan Stojicic,
25 Badza, were already there in Slavonia. So when I said that I did not
1 know whether any other units had been sent, I had said no, but this part
2 of the special anti-terrorist unit was sent there before. So it was
3 already present there. So I just want to avoid any misunderstanding
4 about that or I don't want it to seem as if I did not mention that
6 Now I'm going to answer.
7 Q. First of all, you said SAJ, special anti-terrorist unit, which
8 department did that belong to?
9 A. The SAJ unit, special anti-terrorist unit, belonged to the public
10 security. It always belonged to public security, and it still today
11 belongs to public security.
12 Q. And this unit, you say that it left before you. You mentioned
13 Radovan Stojicic, Badza. Did the whole unit leave or did they go in
14 another way; and, if they did, how many of them went?
15 A. Only a part of the unit went. It wasn't the whole unit. I think
16 it was maybe some 15 or 20 members. Policemen that belonged to that
17 unit. They would rotate. At some point, there were more of them, at
18 some point fewer. But it was between 10 and 15 specials, or rather,
19 policemen of that unit. They were permanently present. Partially they
20 participated in the execution of combat actions, and they also worked on
21 the security of the TO headquarters and personal security of
22 Radovan Stojicic, Badza.
23 Q. We moved away from the topic a little bit, my question before
24 that. I'm not criticising you. You wanted to explain this in order to
25 avoid misunderstandings.
1 My question was: This unit of volunteers from the MUP that we
2 talked about, these members, former policemen from Croatia, and in what?
3 What sort of formation was this? Was this a police formation?
4 A. Immediately upon joining that unit, we were informed that we're
5 going to be a military police company. Thus, that we're not going to be
6 going there by establishment as members of the Ministry of the Interior,
7 but that we're going to be a company of the military police of the
8 Novi Sad Corps. This implied that we should not take our official IDs
9 with us, that we should take our military booklets with us instead that
10 we had in our possession. And immediately upon arriving in the area of
11 Slavonia, we received official military IDs issued by the Novi Sad Corps,
12 which was signed by General Bratic.
13 Q. Mr. Gagic, when you left Belgrade, did you leave as a group; and,
14 if you did, were you issued any equipment in Belgrade?
15 A. We left Belgrade in an organised manner as a group with an
16 already established command structure of a company. We took with us our
17 personal side-arms, which we already had as MUP employees. I
18 specifically had just a pistol. And we were issued with uniforms which
19 were blue, and they were a little bit atypical compared to the already
20 prevalent green military uniforms and green camouflage military uniforms.
21 However, these blue uniforms were there because, first of all, we were
22 the police; and, secondly, these were made from thick serge material and
23 since winter was coming, they were the best suited for us to use during
24 that first initial presence of ours at the front. We also had white
25 cross-belts. This is a belt and cross-belt that went over the shoulder
1 as a symbol of the military police.
2 Q. When you say blue uniforms, do you mean police blue uniforms, or
3 what sort of uniforms?
4 A. These were not the police blue uniforms. These were, in fact,
5 winter uniforms of the fire brigade in Belgrade, which were perhaps taken
6 out of service a year before that previously, and there were some left in
7 supply. First of all, we wanted to use those uniforms; and, secondly,
8 they were of best quality and because winter was coming up, they
9 qualified as the most suitable to be issued to us. And the colour also
10 suited the type of unit.
11 Q. Mr. Gagic, we're talking about the winter that was approaching.
12 When did this unit actually go to Eastern Slavonia and where did it go?
13 A. On the 28th, the unit was formed, and then on the 29th, it left.
14 Our first destination was Dalj.
15 Q. For the transcript, we have to be more precise. You say the
16 28th it was formed and it left on the 29th. Which month was this and
17 which year?
18 A. I apologise. The unit was formed on the 28th of September, 1991,
19 and it left for Dalj, in Slavonia, on that same day.
20 Q. First, are you able to tell us whether it was a departure of a
21 secret nature; and, if not, who issued the permission? What sort of an
22 agreement was reached about the sending of these volunteers from the MUP
23 to Slavonia?
24 A. The forming of the unit and its departure to Slavonia was no
25 secret, nor was there any reason for the formation of such a unit to be a
1 secret. The permission for the unit to leave was given by the then-chief
2 of the Secretariat of the Interior in Belgrade, Rade Markovic, and the
3 then-minister of the interior at the time, Radmilo Bogdanovic. No,
4 excuse me. No, it was already Zoran Sokolovic who was the minister of
5 the interior already by then.
6 Q. And as a company of the military police, when you crossed into
7 Eastern Slavonia, as you said, did you have more duties, more
8 assignments, still in the city SUP in Belgrade?
9 A. When we were touring the area engulfed by war, our work duties at
10 the SUP were suspended, which meant that we could not have been engaged
11 to work on the execution of any assignment for the needs of the city of
12 Belgrade. We could not be summoned to return from the war-engulfed area
13 in order to take part in any raids, arrests, or any similar activities.
14 Simply, our duties were focussed within that military formation that we
15 belonged to, and all of our duties were executed pursuant to the command
16 and control system of the unit, whereas our work status remained
17 unchanged in relation to the period. It was the same as we worked
18 before. We had all the benefits as workers of the MUP. We had all the
19 same benefits, as far as our years of service were calculated, salaries
20 and the like.
21 Q. Mr. Gagic, and how did it come about that you decided to join the
22 unit as a volunteer and go to Slavonia?
23 A. My joining the unit and going to Slavonia was a personal act, on
24 my part. There was no order that I received from anyone to do such a
25 thing, nor was it a principle to go to such assignments, pursuant to an
1 order. It was a personal act, action, and, in a way, I had already
2 become a sympathiser and supporter of those people there, who, in my
3 evaluation, were under serious threat in the Slavonia area and in the
4 territory of Croatia as a whole.
5 The choice to go to Slavonia was quite a coincidental thing. I
6 wanted to help. I already had experience in police work, life
7 experience, and I felt that I could make a much bigger contribution there
8 than some young men of 20 or so who were going there as somebody who had
9 to serve in the military, unprepared. It's a question as to how much
10 training they had. This was a fact. I simply considered it to be a
11 personal act of mine that I had to join and help those people, and simply
12 by family tradition to participation in wars whenever Serbia was
13 threatened was something that my ancestors also had done before me.
14 Q. Were policemen dispatched to any other crisis areas within Serbia
15 at the time?
16 A. There was an active crisis hotbed in Serbia, which was Kosovo.
17 Before the outbreak of the conflict in Croatia, there were escalations of
18 the conflict in Kosovo on a regular basis, so that a large part of the
19 Serbian police force had to be dispatched to Kosovo for longer periods of
20 time, such as a couple of months at the time. Thus, Serbia was in great
21 difficulties at the time, in terms of not having sufficient policemen.
22 Q. You were in the public security department. Do you perhaps have
23 any knowledge of any members of the State Security Department being
24 dispatched to Kosovo?
25 A. State security did have its structure in Kosovo, its branches and
1 offices that were operational. Whenever there was a surge in conflicts,
2 whenever public law and order was disrupted, they would reinforce their
3 presence with contingents of policemen from other areas in Serbia.
4 Otherwise, the police force that was present in Kosovo sufficed to deal
5 with the situation without the policemen from other areas in Serbia
6 coming to their aid.
7 Q. Mr. Gagic, let us focus now on your story.
8 You said that it was on the 29th of September, 1991, that you
9 arrived in Vukovar. Where were you --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 29 -- yes, the
11 29th of November, 1991.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. So where were you billeted when you arrived in Vukovar?
14 A. As we arrived in the village of Dalj on the 29th of September, we
15 were put up in a daycare centre, a kindergarten to be precise. At that
16 point in time, it was the only facility that could accommodate a
17 40-strong unit. We had to sleep on the floor, since the furnishings, of
18 course, were appropriate for pre-school children. We had sleeping bags.
19 We organised duty shifts in the perimeter of the facility we were
20 billeted at. We also organised patrols --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, let's try to avoid what seems to confuse
23 Page 23, line 16, your question was translated initially as:
24 "You said that it was on the 29th of September, 1991, that you
25 arrived in Vukovar."
1 Then the interpreter corrected this and said: "29 -- yes,
2 29th of November, 1991."
3 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, it was interpreter's mistake. So
4 it is the 29th of September.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we then continued with the 29th
6 of September, I didn't know what -- so the correction was a
7 mis-correction. Thank you very much.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I
10 noticed that.
11 Q. Mr. Gagic, tell us, first of all, who was in command of your
12 unit; and under whose command did you place yourselves upon your arrival
13 in this village of Dalj?
14 A. My unit was under the command of the former commander of a
15 special unit in Zagreb who had to leave the Croatian police under
16 pressure. His name was Veljko Bogunovic. He was admitted to the
17 Belgrade SUP where he worked for almost a year and -- so he was among the
18 first who had to leave Croatia. He was the unit's commander. He had his
19 deputies and his -- put the command and control structure of his unit in
21 We placed ourselves under the control of the SAO -- SAO --
22 Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem TO staff, which was under the
23 command of Radovan Stojicic, Badza. In fact, we placed ourselves under
24 the command of the TO staff, but our immediate superiors were, in fact,
25 the Novi Sad Corps. We were part of the Novi Sad Corps but locally were
1 under the command of the TO staff commander, Radovan Stojicic.
2 Q. Mr. Gagic, as you arrived in Dalj, were you issued with any
4 A. As I said, we took along our side-arms, but we were issued with
5 certain weapons in Dalj as well. They were semi-automatic and automatic
6 rifles. There was one, a machine-gun. These were rounds belonging to
7 the military police company. Those were not weapons that had belonged to
8 the civilian police. So that while we had taken along some of the
9 weapons, we were issued with other weapons in Dalj.
10 Q. The weapons you were additionally given, Mr. Gagic, where did
11 that happen and who handed the weapons over to you?
12 A. We received additional weapons in Dalj in the TO defence arms
14 Now, was this, at the same time, an arms depot for the entire
15 Slavonia or only for the place of Dalj? Well, I think it was a central
16 depot of the TO staff of the SAO Krajina and Baranja, though it was
17 stationed in Dalj. That's what it was called. But it belonged to the
18 central structure.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've noted the time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break, and we'll resume at
21 quarter to 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late start, but there
25 was an urgent matter which required the attention of all three of us.
1 Mr. Bakrac, are you ready to proceed? Please do so.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I am, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 Let me first apologise. I omitted to tender 2D1055.2 into
4 evidence, as an MFI'd exhibit.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You want to have 2D1055.2 to be marked for
7 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
8 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be D691, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And it will keep that status until we receive
10 further information.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Gagic, before the break, we talked about the TO arms depot in
14 Dalj. Do you have any knowledge about the possible sources of supplies
15 for that TO arms depot in Dalj?
16 A. According to the information I have, that particular depot
17 received its supplies from other military depots of the JNA. And I can
18 claim that because I saw, based on the sort of weapons that were there,
19 such as Zoljas, hand-held rocket-launchers and the like, that they could
20 only have been weapons belonging to the JNA.
21 Q. Mr. Gagic, how long did you stay in Dalj, in that daycare centre;
22 and what were the tasks that you were performing?
23 A. We spent some 15 to 20 days in Dalj. It was roughly on the
24 20th of October, between the 15th and 20 October 1991, that we were
25 relocated to Erdut.
1 I've already said that the conditions in that daycare centre were
2 not appropriate for a unit. During our stay in Dalj, we engaged in
3 patrols and securing the facility where we were billeted. We had both
4 car and pedestrian patrols which went as far as the villages around Dalj.
5 We were, in fact, waiting for our next deployment, which was to
6 be a continued and definitive one.
7 Q. While you were patrolling, did you carry any sort of
8 identification papers with you; and, if so, which ones?
9 A. The military records that we had, we left in the headquarters.
10 We had on us military passes, passes of the military police that we had
11 been given by the Novi Sad Corps command. This was to serve as our
12 identification during the task that we performed --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that we didn't catch the
14 name of the general from the Novi Sad Corps.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The name of the general of the Novi Sad Corps, could
16 you repeat the name of the general.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was General Bratic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Gagic, this would be the convenient time. You say
21 that the commander of the Novi Sad Corps, General Bratic, issued you with
22 these papers. Did there come a time that a new commander was appointed
23 at the head of the Novi Sad Corps; and, if so, when?
24 A. Well, I wouldn't call it a replacement. It was roughly in that
25 period that General Bratic was killed. It was in early October of 1991.
1 He was replaced by Andrija Biorcevic, a general.
2 Q. Mr. Gagic, after having spent between 15 and 20 days in Dalj,
3 were you deployed to a different location with a specific task given to
4 the unit?
5 A. Once we were given billeting quarters in Erdut, which were, in
6 fact, a part of the Saponia company complex, we, as the unit, were given
7 a specific task, which was to check the traffic across the Brotherhood
8 and Unity bridge. That was the only road between Vojvodina and Eastern
9 Slavonia, and we were supposed to check all the passengers, individuals
10 travelling along that road, as well as the goods transported.
11 Q. Until you were put up in the Saponia premises in Erdut, had any
12 sort of facility been secured for you where you took your meals?
13 A. Since this particular facility belonging to Saponia did have a
14 canteen, we had the premises but we didn't have the staff to man it. So
15 before this was done, we took our meals in the 101st Recruitment Centre,
16 which was, in fact, the so-called Arkan Centre, the Territorial Defence
17 Centre. It was in that facility where Arkan's unit was billeted that we
18 took our meals.
19 Q. In these dozen or so days while you were taking your meals in the
20 recruitment centre, did you have occasion to see Arkan and whomever it
21 was who was stationed there?
22 A. While we went on to have our meals there, I got to the know Arkan
23 and Radovan Stojicic, Badza, though I had known Arkan from before on
24 several different bases. I would also occasionally see Goran Hadzic
25 coming to the centre, including, of course, members of Arkan's
1 Volunteer Guard, who would take their meals there at the same time we
2 did. And, of course, Radovan Stojicic who would come there periodically.
3 It was not a centre that was closed off to the public, and other
4 people were able to come there as well.
5 Q. Did you have the opportunity to find out to which structure the
6 Serbian Volunteer Guard and Arkan belonged, when they were there?
7 A. Yes. I knew from the very beginning that the Serbian
8 Volunteer Guard and the volunteers who joined that guard were
9 subordinated to the TO Staff, in terms of organisation, meaning to
10 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, but they carried out tasks directly pursuant to
11 orders of the Novi Sad Corps Command. So their tasks did not always
12 imply that the order to execute the task or action planning proceeded
13 through the TO Staff. There were also direct engagements by Novi Sad
14 Corps units and through the TO Staff, but definitely they were
15 resubordinated to the TO Staff and the TO Staff was resubordinated to the
16 Novi Sad Corps.
17 Q. Mr. Gagic, you say that, for a while, some ten days or so, you
18 had your meals at this training centre and that you had been given a task
19 to control the Bogojevski bridge as a unit. Are you able to tell us, if
20 you know, how did the Serbian Volunteer Guard volunteers come to that
21 particular area?
22 A. I did not spend too much time at the bridge. I was more involved
23 in organisational tasks, but I did tour the deployed unit members at the
24 bridge, and I had the opportunity to see when all sorts of formations
25 arrived there, including the Serbian Volunteer Guard. They would arrive
1 in a van. It was not a regular passenger vehicle. It was a van, a
2 larger vehicle, with Belgrade plates. They would come in civilian
3 clothing. New volunteers would come in civilian clothing, in civilian
4 clothes, in small groups, three, four, five of them, meaning small
5 groups, and the driver of the van was an older guard member, somebody who
6 was already in the unit, thus, and he had a pass to cross that Erdut
7 bridge. Thus, he had the permission to enter with the people who were
8 with him in the vehicle.
9 Q. And do you know which structure was this permit to enter received
11 A. The permit was received from the TO Slavonia Staff.
12 Q. You say that a few people would arrive in this van, you said, in
13 civilian clothing. Did they have arms with them?
14 A. They did not have weapons. They didn't even have side-arms that
15 they perhaps had as citizens. They had to come without any weapons to
16 that area.
17 Q. And do you know where and when they were issued with weapons,
18 once they arrived?
19 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guard received its supplies from the
20 TO Staff depot in Dalj. Because, once, we had the situation when I went
21 for some additional equipment that we needed, and I saw a vehicle that
22 belonged to the Guard that was also -- also being issued with some --
23 some weapons and ammunition, and then I could see that the Serbian
24 Volunteer Guard was also being supplied through that depot, which
25 received its supplies, in turn, from the army.
1 Q. And did you have the opportunity to hear or to see at the very
2 beginning who trained? Or, rather, did the Serbian Volunteer Guard in
3 Erdut carry out any kind of training?
4 A. The Serbian Volunteer Guard did carry out training, even before
5 we arrived, and after we arrived, the training was carried out as part of
6 the activities of that centre. Behind the centre, there was a football
7 field which was suitable for training. There was also an area which was
8 suitable for target practice, infantry weapons target practice.
9 I also know from talking with members of the SAJ unit that, in
10 the beginning, these members of this unit were the instructors in Serbian
11 Volunteer Guard, that it was they who trained the Serbian Volunteer Guard
12 volunteers, Arkan's volunteers. They trained them during a period of
13 time by training larger formations of 50 to 60 people and by providing
14 special training for the most talented members of that Guard who later
15 they appointed as instructors. So when the first cycle of training was
16 over and when the first group of instructors was formed in the Serbian
17 Volunteer Guard, they took over the training and the members of the SAJ
18 no longer participated in this training, or conducted the training, and
19 then other people would come to the Guard who already had special skills,
20 whether they learned them in the army or because they were expert in
21 martial arts. In any case --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the last sentence.
25 What we have on our screen now is that:
1 "And then other people would come to the Guard who already had
2 special skills, whether they learned them in the army or because they
3 were expert in martial arts ..."
4 And then you added: "In any case ..."
5 And what did then follow?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, that was the end.
7 That they were experts in martial arts who later continued to
8 give the training. That was the end of the sentence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Gagic, this first thing, you said members of the SAJ unit.
12 Let me repeat: Was the complete SAJ unit there out in the field?
13 A. No. A smaller part of it was out in the field. Less than a
14 third of the total SAJ was there.
15 Q. Without repeating it, earlier you explained how and with whom
16 they came there as volunteers.
17 Can you tell me just one more time, they belonged to which
18 administration? Which department in the Serbian MUP?
19 A. The SAJ were part of the public security service.
20 Q. Witness, we talked about arming.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at a document, which
22 is already in evidence in this case. This is D31. I think that this is
23 not under seal and that we can look at it in open session.
24 Q. And while we're waiting, Mr. Gagic, this is a document dated the
25 18th of October, 1991. 1st Military District. It's an information by
1 the security organ.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honour, I believe we haven't had a foundation
4 as to the arming of Arkan's Men. I may have missed that. I would like
5 to raise that though. In case that's true.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to Mr. Bakrac. If there's no foundation,
7 then, of course, the probative value is -- may be affected by that.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: And the document may be leading in that case.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then could we first address the --
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If we first address the foundation and then look at
12 the document.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, we heard
15 that this witness has personal knowledge about the arming and additional
16 arming, and the arming of Arkan. The witness worked in the MUP. And
17 before I show this document, I'm going to ask the witness if --
18 Q. Witness, did you ever, in the field, while you were staying,
19 between October 1991 and April -- and April 1992, have knowledge as to
20 whether Arkan and his Serbian Volunteer Guard were receiving weapons from
21 the MUP of the Republic of Serbia?
22 A. I don't have -- or didn't have such information. And in view of
23 the type of weaponry, it's not very ...
24 Q. The Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, did it
25 have mines and explosive devices?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did the MUP of the Republic of Serbia have Zoljas, Osas and
3 military weapons at its disposal?
4 A. No.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now look at
6 this information by the security organ of the military.
7 Q. And while we're waiting --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, Ms. Friedman, to say that there was
9 nothing said about the base of knowledge. Of course, the witness
10 testified that what he observed what happened at the depot where the
11 Serbian Volunteer Guards received their supplies, where he said once they
12 had a situation when he went for some additional, that he saw -- so there
13 was some foundation, at least, for part of the --
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour. I believed it was a different
15 unit, not the Serbian Volunteer Guard, but I would have go back to the
16 spot --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check that. Okay. If that's the case,
18 then I may have been confused.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Gagic, what is being referred to here is information obtained
22 through some lieutenant in the reserves.
23 And can we focus on the second paragraph now where it says:
24 "During several consecutive contacts with Arkan, the above named
25 stated that the weaponry, ammunition and the MES mines and explosives had
1 been supplied by the MUP and the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of
2 Serbia ..."
3 I'm just going to stop here for a second just to ask you what the
4 abbreviation, MES, M-E-S, stands for.
5 A. MES is an abbreviation for mines and explosives. These would be
6 trip mines and other types of explosive devices.
7 Q. I'm going to ask you again, did the MUP have these kind of
8 explosive devices in its arsenal?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mr. Gagic, it goes on to say here that this person found out from
11 Arkan that he was distributing these devices to the TO Staffs of Erdut,
12 Sarvas and Borovo Selo. And they say that records of the issued weapons
13 should be kept and updated.
14 Did you ever, during your stay in that area, have the opportunity
15 to see or to hear that Arkan was distributing these weapons to the Erdut,
16 Sarvas and Borovo Selo TOs?
17 A. I am not aware that Arkan was in a position or that he had
18 weapons and other combat equipment that he was distributing to the
19 Territorial Defence. After all, he himself was directly being supplied
20 through the Territorial Defence. So that in reading and looking at this
21 document, I think that this is a re-telling of second-hand information,
22 and the data seems to be inaccurate. It says here: In the former Erdut
23 military training centre. That was never that
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gagic, did you have an opportunity while you were
1 there to see what the relations between Arkan and the Novi Sad Corps were
3 A. Arkan's relations with the Novi Sad Corps Command and
4 lower-ranking officers of that corps was professional. It was quite
5 decent. He conducted himself as a subordinate. He never strayed outside
6 of the system and organisation for conducting armed conflict and armed
7 combat, rather, he performed tasks as ordered.
8 Q. While you were in Erdut, did you have the opportunity to see if
9 anyone from the Novi Sad Corps came to that TO training centre in Erdut?
10 A. Yes, yes. I would see a number of officers from the Novi Sad
11 Corps there. A couple of times, I also saw the security officer of the
12 Novi Sad Corps, Colonel Kosutic. So he was the chief of the security
13 organ of the Novi Sad Corps. I would see Generals Biorcevic and
14 Ivanovic, and, later -- actually, I never had the opportunity to see
15 General Bratic in person myself.
16 Q. And do you know where the command of the Novi Sad Corps was?
17 A. The command of the Novi Sad Corps was on a ship which was called
18 Kozara. At the time, when I went to visit the ship on two occasions, it
19 was in Erdut. It was anchored there. Whether it moved from that place,
20 as it's a vessel, this is something that I could not assert.
21 Q. Did you have a chance, as you told us that you were discharging
22 military police duties, did you have an opportunity to see Arkan or his
23 officers going to the Novi Sad Corps Command?
24 A. Yes, yes. I had the opportunity to see Arkan and his officers
25 going to the Novi Sad Corps Command on several occasions, because I knew
1 where the command was located, so I could see vehicles departing and
2 people as well. These were lower-ranked officers and Arkan himself.
3 Q. Mr. Gagic, during the time you spent in Erdut and -- both at the
4 centre and later on when you moved to Saponia, did you see any officials
5 of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia on the ground; or were you aware
6 that he would come to visit Arkan and this Novi Sad Corps centre?
7 A. Except for Radovan Stojicic, Badza, who was on the ground anyway,
8 I did not have an opportunity to see any of the higher-ranking
9 representatives of the Serbian MUP.
10 Q. Mr. Gagic, do you know whether Radovan Stojicic, Badza, Arkan,
11 and anyone else ever received any sort of award from the Novi Sad Corps?
12 A. I know that immediately after the termination of combat
13 operations in Vukovar, perhaps five or six days later, after the
14 termination of combat operations in Vukovar, the Novi Sad Corps Command
15 distributed gifts to the deserving participants in the final operations
16 in Vukovar.
17 I believe that on that occasion there was a dinner held at the
18 wine cellar of Saponia. That was the restaurant of the Saponia. Wine
19 factory. I was present but I was not present during the distribution of
20 these gifts because I was a bit late for the dinner because I had other
21 obligations, and I'm not sure if that was the moment when these awards or
22 gifts were given to them. These were weapons.
23 Q. I would like us to see 1D2309 while we are discussing this.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe that this should be under
25 seal because -- or perhaps not. 1D2309.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, if you say that it should perhaps be
3 under seal or perhaps not, then, out of an abundance of caution, we'll
4 put it under seal. But it would be appreciated if you would have
5 prepared your position a bit more precisely.
6 Please proceed. And this document provisionally is dealt with as
7 a confidential document.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. It
9 seemed to me -- but I will check by the next break. I apologise for
10 creating confusion.
11 Q. Mr. Gagic --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Should we move in private session for this purpose
13 or not? I do not know what the possible reasons for confidentiality of
14 the document are. Is this about content or about handwriting or
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow -- I
17 apologise. My only dilemma is that I believe that the provenance of this
18 document --
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It comes from Mr. Stanisic --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Try to find out. We provisionally will go
22 into private session.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: We're aware of no reason it should be under seal
24 and have the same information that the -- that it is from Mr. Stanisic.
25 So unless the Defence team sees a reason --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you'll perhaps ...
2 MR. JORDASH: I have no further answers at this moment, but I can
3 speak to Mr. Stanisic in the break and find out if there's anything.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I have not heard of any compelling reason why we
5 should deal with it confidentially. Mr. Bakrac apparently doesn't know.
6 Mr. Jordash has no specific reasons. Ms. Friedman can't tell us.
7 We will deal with the document in open session unless you
8 indicate that we should not.
9 MR. JORDASH: We can see no reason either for it to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we -- Ms. Friedman.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Just on a separate matter. There doesn't seem to
12 be a translation uploaded.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then only part of the public will know what it
14 is about.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: And we are aware that there was a translation in
16 e-court previously provided by the Defence. But just on that note, we
17 actually had it re-translated because there was a word that seemed
18 inaccurate. So we could provide that by e-mail for the parties to upload
19 perhaps in the next break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I do not know what the questions will be,
21 but, of course, there should be a translation.
22 Let's first listen to the questions that Mr. Bakrac will put.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it may be of
24 assistance, on page 2 of this document we can find the translation. This
25 is how it was included in e-court, and this is information I got from my
1 learned friend from the other Defence team.
2 Q. So, Mr. Gagic, the date is the 23rd -- the 12th Corps Command.
3 The date is the 23rd of November, 1991, and the place is Dalj. And as we
4 have the translation now, I will read it as it's a short document.
5 "In sign of recognition for the successful co-operation and
6 direct participation in combats for the liberation of Borovo, I am
7 awarding the ... weapon as a war trophy to the most successful leaders of
8 the Territorial Defence of the Serbian area of Slavonia, Baranja, and
9 Western Srem as follows.
10 "Radovan Stojicic, Badza, the commander of the TO of Slavonia,
11 Baranja, and Western Srem, a hunting rifle, serial number ..."
12 Number two, Zivko Trajkovic, deputy commander of the
13 Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, a hunting
14 rifle with the following serial number.
15 "And, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, the commander of the special
16 volunteers' squad of the TO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, a light
17 machine-gun" with the following serial number.
18 "Signed by the commander, Major-General, Andrija Biorcevic."
19 Is this -- or was this the occasion and were these the awards
20 that you mentioned which were distributed at a dinner held after the fall
21 of Vukovar?
22 A. These were the weapons that were distributed and these were
23 awards that were given out during the dinner. But as I said, I was not
24 present during the distribution of the awards because I was late. But
25 once I joined the dinner, I heard from those present that the commander
1 of -- Major-General Andrija Biorcevic did distribute these weapons as
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see my learned friend
4 Mr. Jordash is on his feet.
5 MR. JORDASH: Only because I think this is already an exhibit,
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll verify that.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then we
9 shall move on.
10 Q. Mr. Gagic, please tell us, after you transferred to Erdut, you
11 told us that, in terms of organisation, you were in charge of the control
12 of the Bogojevo bridge. Were you personally in charge of any other tasks
13 or duties?
14 A. Well, in addition to my occasional presence at the bridge and the
15 assistance I provided to unit members when they needed it, I also had a
16 role as an advisor and instructor. I was helping to constitute local
17 police forces. When I say "the local police," what I mean is the
18 Secretariat of the Interior Vukovar, with a seat in Dalj, and also the
19 contacts that they needed to establish with already established police
20 stations in the area that we could freely move around. That is to say,
21 the area ranging between Vukovar and Osijek.
22 Q. Mr. Witness, let me just return to the celebratory dinner after
23 the fall of Vukovar. There have been various testimonies. What I'm
24 interested in is whether this was, conditionally speaking, the only
25 celebration, if I may call it so, or were there any others?
1 A. Such festive dinners were organised on a number of occasions
2 during this period. Several times they were held at Saponia, where I was
3 quartered, but also in other places. A few humanitarian concerts were
4 organised, in order to boost the people's morale and to provide some
5 relaxation during the ravages of war.
6 Q. Mr. Gagic, did you know who Franko Simatovic is, at that time;
7 and did you know what he looked like?
8 A. Up until then we had never met in person but I knew what he
9 looked like from various meetings which both of us attended. And the
10 same is true of Mr. Stanisic. I knew who they were and I knew what they
11 looked like, but I never had a chance to be in any sort of direct
12 communication with them, which means that they did not have a chance to
13 know who I was.
14 Q. When you say earlier meetings, what period do you have in mind?
15 When were these meetings held?
16 A. Well, I mean the period before 1991. I mean 1985 or 1986 or
17 1987. Because, as I said, I had completed the crime prevention school
18 and many members of their service were the same generation as me during
19 our education. So I had a chance to communicate with them, to socialise
20 with them. During state celebrations or holidays, I had a chance to see
21 them, and so on and so forth. Therefore, I knew them by sight, and I
22 also knew them because of their position.
23 Q. Mr. Gagic, you mentioned the dinners held after the fall of
24 Vukovar and the awards that were distributed.
25 Now let me ask you first about those which you attended. Did you
1 ever see Franko Simatovic at any of these award ceremonies?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever hear of a dinner or celebration that you did not
4 attend but which you heard Franko Simatovic did attend?
5 A. No, I did not hear that on any occasion Franko Simatovic was
6 present at any of those dinners, or in the territory of Slavonia at all.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gagic.
8 Can you please tell me the following. You have told us that you
9 provided assistance in addition to deploying units in positions at the
10 Bogojevo bridge. You said that, on the basis of your experience, you
11 helped to establish police stations. Did you do any other sort of work?
12 Did you go out into the field, and so on?
13 A. As -- in terms of organisation and operation, the police units
14 had not been fully established but just a little bit in terms of regular
15 policemen who were maintaining public law and order. And as the crime
16 prevention police had not been established, traffic police only to a
17 certain extent in the sector where I was, I, in fact, was involved in
18 organising all of that. And at the orders of the TO Staff, through the
19 commander of my unit, I occasionally visited places where some incidents
20 of security interest took place, including the sites of some crimes.
21 Q. Mr. Gagic, before we have a look at the next document, please
22 tell us about Saponia, where you were accommodated. Was the TO command
23 also seated there? And who was staying there?
24 A. As for Saponia, the unit that I was a member of, with the
25 belonging staff and leadership, was accommodated there. The commander of
1 the TO Staff with his deputy and assistant and members of the special
2 anti-terrorist unit, who were securing the commander and his deputy and
3 also performed other tasks, were all accommodated there.
4 There were several rooms in which occasionally people who had
5 something to do with the TO staff stayed. There was a man who was a
6 retired army colonel and who was in charge of de-mining, so he
7 occasionally came and helped us with de-mining certain areas that we
8 suspected included some mines and explosives.
9 So mainly it was the unit staff and occasionally people that we
10 engaged to perform certain special activities because we didn't have
11 people who were trained to do that.
12 Q. The individual who was charged with training people in mine
13 clearance, would he also go to the training centre in Erdut to conduct
14 that same sort of training?
15 A. He was a retired army officer who we hired so that we would not
16 be placing additional burden on the military personnel who had too much
17 work to do anyhow on the front line, and he was supposed to check the
18 terrain around Bogojevski bridge for any possible mines, because we
19 didn't rule out that possibility that there were mines. He also had to
20 do the same checks for mines of our billeting quarters and the facilities
21 where Arkan's unit and the 101st Centre were housed.
22 You see, around the area of the winery where these various units
23 were housed, there were other facilities that were not directly connected
24 to the work of the centre.
25 Q. Mr. Gagic, let us look at Exhibit P1059.
1 And while we're waiting for it to appear, Mr. Gagic, apparently
2 the exhibit is a report of the Federal Secretariat of National Defence of
3 the security department of May 1992.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And it is under seal, Your Honours.
5 Can we move into private session before it appears.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 17151-17158 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Gagic, I just want to check the transcript.
18 You said Radovan Stojicic - this is line 23 on page 53 - he was
19 the commander of the TO staff until the end of 2001. And then you
20 said -- in what year was he no longer the commander?
21 A. I think perhaps the error was mine. Actually, it was until 1991.
22 Not 2001. So he was the commander until 1991. Not 2001.
23 Q. And what did Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, become after that?
24 A. Mr. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, after that, became the chief of the
25 State Security Department.
1 Q. And did he come to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem after
2 being appointed the chief of the service and the deputy minister in 1991?
3 A. Yes. Radovan Stojicic continued to visit the Eastern Slavonia
4 area. I saw him there personally on several occasions.
5 Q. And do you know why he went to that area in early 1992?
6 A. In order to effect the takeover of duty with the newly appointed
7 commander of the TO staff, Zivko Trajkovic, and this process of hand-over
8 of duty lasted for quite some time.
9 Q. In 1992, in that area, were there any events of interest from the
10 security point of view?
11 A. Well, in that area, there are always events that were of security
12 interest, so perhaps you could be a little bit more specific.
13 Q. Are you aware whether, in 1992, the territory of the Republic of
14 Serbia was threatened; and, if so, what do you know about it?
15 A. I know that central Serbia, or, actually, the territory of the
16 Republic of Serbia, was under threat because of the incursion of a
17 terrorist group from the area of the Republic of Croatia. The name of
18 the action was Amfibija, and the territory where they came was in the
19 area of Sombor and Apatin in a vehicle that was able to cross water and
20 move on land, and the purpose was to commit a terrorist act, to blow up
21 the -- the Erdut bridge close to which my unit was deployed.
22 Q. And do you know who led this action; and, if you do know, who was
23 in that group of people who participated in that action?
24 A. The action was personally led by Radovan Stojicic, Badza,
25 although he was already the chief of the department and deputy minister.
1 The action was carried out by members of the special anti-terrorist unit,
2 the SAJ, by members of the local police, and a certain number of police
3 members and volunteers from the Krajina were also engaged in it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: I just wanted to note for the record that there is
6 nothing in the witness's summary that would suggest that he would provide
7 this evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you would permit me
10 to ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, it's -- it's on the record.
12 Ms. Friedman noted it. I also noted that the last portion of the
13 evidence that what's the basis of the knowledge of the witness is totally
14 unclear. I'm not soliciting you to -- I'm not soliciting to or inviting
15 you to clarify that. But I just put that on the record as well.
16 That's --
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the summary, it
19 states that he was going to talk about Radovan Stojicic, Badza, and
20 perhaps it's my mistake that I did not inform the other side in more
21 detail. But if you permit me, I'm going to ask the witness about what he
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think you should have started with that. But, of
24 course, to say, to testify about Badza, of course, that would be good for
25 anything between one and 50 hours of testimony, without further
2 Well, if you consider it is of such importance that we should
3 know it -- you've asked for three and a half hours. That's what is
4 granted. Make your own priorities, I would say.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, you spoke about this Amfibija action and the incursion.
8 Where do have you this information from?
9 A. The incursion is something that is well known. It was covered in
10 the media. And we also had official information about the incursion of
11 the group. We were informed as a unit who was securing the bridge, that
12 such a group had made the incursion, and we offered our co-operation that
13 we should engage members of our units in further proceedings so as to
14 neutralise the activities of that terrorist group.
15 Q. And did you have any direct information from Radovan Stojicic,
17 A. Yes, yes. At the time, we did have that from Radovan Stojicic,
18 Badza, and it was then that we offered to engage our units on those
19 tasks, but he refused.
20 Q. Mr. Gagic, did you hear from Radovan Stojicic, Badza, about any
21 additional police engagement of police from the Krajina?
22 A. Yes. I heard when we offered to participate in the action, and
23 in view of the fact that our area was a high risk one and still a
24 problematic one, there was a problem from Badza -- there was a comment
25 from Badza that he didn't want to weaken the set-up in Slavonia and that
1 he would engage volunteer policemen from the Krajina, if necessary, and I
2 think that he actually did engage a group. Actually, I did know that he
3 did engage a group of policemen, policemen and volunteers from other
4 areas of Croatia.
5 Q. Mr. Gagic, quite apart from this Amfibija operation, were you
6 aware of any other alleged events in 1992 which would have required Badza
7 to engage police -- police forces?
8 A. Yes, I am, in fact.
9 A large protest rally was scheduled for the 9th of March of
10 citizens in Belgrade. On the 9th of March, a large rally of the
11 opposition forces gathered in Belgrade. There were great many victims.
12 This happened in 1991.
13 So a year later, they wanted to mark the anniversary of this
14 event, and they wanted to gather many tens of thousands of citizens.
15 This protest rally, in fact, was announced as an attempt to topple the
17 Q. Were certain outside forces engaged at the time?
18 A. As far as I know, around a thousand policemen were engaged
19 outside of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. They were members of the
20 MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
21 The security situation was very precarious because of this
22 particular rally.
23 Q. Do you know if these policemen hired from the outside were given
24 any sort of documents by Serbian authorities; and, if so, what sort of
1 A. They were given official identification papers because, without
2 them, they would not have been able to work in the Republic of Serbia.
3 They received the same ID cards as had been given to all members of
4 public security at the time.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like us to have a
6 look at D456 now. It was MFI'd because we were waiting for a
7 translation. We have now -- the translation is 2D882. And can we have
8 page 47 in B/C/S and 45 in English, in e-court.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document was MFI'd provisionally, under seal,
10 Your Honour.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in that case, can we
12 move into private session, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 17165-17169 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Gagic, what became of the -- of your unit when you returned
16 on the 6th of April, 1992?
17 A. I went back on my own. The entire unit stayed back and continued
18 in their previous duties, i.e., providing security to the bridge and
19 checking those passing through there. And it stayed in that area until
20 October of 2002, by which time most of the old members of that unit had
21 already returned.
22 Q. I just have to check. You said October 2002 or was that an
24 A. I apologise. 1992 is what I meant.
25 Q. Mr. Gagic, you say that some remained. What do you mean by that?
1 Did they ...
2 A. A part of the unit remained there securing the bridge. A smaller
3 part of the unit members was deployed in local police stations in the
4 area of Slavonia. When, in October 1992, the unit was sent back, those
5 policemen wishing to return in these police stations where they were
6 deployed continued working there. I mean in Slavonia.
7 After the withdrawal of all Serbian forces from Slavonia, some of
8 these policemen remained working there under Croatian authorities in
9 police stations that were situated in the territory of Croatia.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gagic. When you came here to The Hague, you
11 brought us your military booklet to the proofing session; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we could now have a
15 look at Exhibit 2D1056.
16 I apologise, Your Honours. We have sent this for translation.
17 We will -- no. I'm sorry. I have been notified that we have managed to
18 obtain the translation, so if we could please show the next page.
19 Q. Is that your military booklet?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Gagic, is each of your military engagement from the date of
22 issue -- or let me first ask you: When was this military booklet issued
23 to you?
24 A. This military booklet was issued to me at the moment when I was
25 capable of serving the army. That is to say, 1971. My compulsory
1 military service is recorded here, as well as my promotions during the
2 regular service. Then my participation in manoeuvres after I had served
3 compulsory military service. Then my deployment while I was a member of
4 the reserve forces. And also my participation in the Territorial Defence
5 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Can we please now show the last page
7 of this document. And can we please zoom in. Also the right half of the
8 screen, please.
9 Q. Mr. Gagic, if I understand this properly, this period is recorded
10 as participation in the war when you were attached to the TO Staff in
11 Erdut. What does this document represent as a piece of evidence? I'm
12 trying not to ask you any leading questions but can you tell us what is
13 recorded in such booklets? It is participation in what sort of
15 A. This booklet contains a record of all military engagement of the
16 holder of this ID, so all the activities that the holder was involved in
17 are recorded here, if this had to do with military organs.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gagic.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would tender 2D1056
20 into evidence. And for the Prosecution, I can say that Mr. Gagic is in
21 possession of the original. He showed us this once he arrived here.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: We have no objection. We will consider whether we
24 would like to see the original and will communicate that, if necessary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gagic, would you be willing to provide the
1 original for inspection to the parties and to the Chamber?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can do that immediately.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If the usher could then receive it from -- and from
4 the witness and give it to the Registrar so that it's available for
5 inspection by the parties.
6 Yes, that might take some time to look through it, but it's --
7 it's not lost.
8 So, therefore, please proceed, Mr. Bakrac, meanwhile.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Gagic, from April 1992 when you returned to Belgrade onwards,
11 can you just briefly tell us what duties did you discharge?
12 A. After my return to Belgrade, I worked until 1996 as head of the
13 section for prevention of violent crime at the Belgrade SUP.
14 In 1996, I was assigned to the chief of the section for
15 preventing violent crimes at the seat of the ministry. That is to say,
16 the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, where I remained until 2004.
17 In 2004, I was appointed chief of the service for investigation
18 of war crimes in the MUP of Serbia. I stayed there until 2006, when I
20 Q. Mr. Gagic, in the period between 2004 and 2006, did you do any
21 operative work that had to do with the arrest of the Yellow Wasps?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, the summary of the expected testimony
24 tells the Chamber that whilst the witness was in charge of the war crimes
25 department, proceedings were lodged against members of the Skorpioni and
1 Zuti. And I wonder to what extent there is any dispute about proceedings
2 instituted against members of those organisations. Unless, of course,
3 there would be certain details which you would like to present.
4 But, Ms. Friedman, is there any dispute about such proceedings
5 being instituted against member of the Skorpions and the Wasps?
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: There's no dispute about proceedings being
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. --
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: In addition, the witness appears to have some
10 papers in front of him. Could we inquire what they are?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or to be put away.
12 Witness, you apparently have some papers in front of you. Could
13 you tell us what they are.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have here in front of me the
15 information about persons from these two groups who were arrested. These
16 were the Skorpions and the Yellow Wasps. And I have it as an
17 aide-memoire, and I can remove it, if needed.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would please remove it, and if you want
19 to consult it, then please tell us.
20 Mr. Bakrac, the fact that proceedings were instituted against
21 these members of those units is not in dispute.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will spend a very
24 short time on this, maybe three or four questions, because it is not so
25 important. Just the basics.
1 Q. When you were involved in the arrest of Yellow Wasps, did you
2 learn whether they had any connections with the MUP of the Republic of
3 Serbia? At the time of the commission of these crimes or later on, did
4 they have any connections, any links, with the MUP or the State Security
5 Service of the Republic of Serbia?
6 A. All the information that I am aware of seems to suggest that
7 members of the Yellow Wasps never had anything to do with either the
8 members of the MUP or with members of the State Security Department. If
9 they had individual contacts, then it's something that I do not know.
10 Q. Did you become aware in the course of your operative work that
11 one of the accused and prosecuted, Branko Popovic, who was also known as
12 Major Marko Pavlovic, in Zvornik, in 1992, had any links or connections
13 whatsoever with the MUP or the DB of the Republic of Serbia?
14 A. I am not aware of any links he would have with either the MUP or
15 the DB of the Republic of Serbia, nor was such a link established during
17 Q. You also participated -- oh, I'm sorry.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I see that my learned friend is on
19 her feet.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I just wanted to seek some clarification. I know
21 Mr. Bakrac has shortened his questions. But I don't think it's clear on
22 the record exactly which investigations this witness oversaw or was
23 involved in.
24 Maybe we should get back to that for a little bit.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, that proceedings were instituted is
1 agreed, but what investigation the witness is talking about seems to be
2 not clear at this moment.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Witness, in what way did you participate in the investigation
5 that had to do with the arrests of the Yellow Wasps?
6 A. Well, I arrested the members of the Yellow Wasps after I received
7 a request from the prosecutor for war crimes to do that. And, as far as
8 I know, the war crimes prosecutor of the Republic of Serbia received the
9 necessary information from ICTY.
10 Q. When you reviewed the files, did you have any interviews with the
11 arrested persons?
12 A. Well, after an arrest, the principle is to interview each
13 individual in order to establish his identity, his possible involvement
14 in the relevant incident, then a report is drawn up which includes all
15 the relevant information, and then --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I get the impression that you would like to answer
17 the question with yes. The question was: Did you interview persons
18 arrested. Did you? Then the answer is yes. If not, then the answer is
20 Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Did any of the persons say in these interviews that they were
24 members of the MUP or the DB of the Republic of Serbia at any point?
25 A. [Interpretation] No.
1 Q. As for the documents and files which you received from the
2 prosecutor's office, did any of that suggest that there were links
3 between any of them and the MUP or the DB of the Republic of Serbia?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gagic. In order to shorten --
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Oh, I see that my learned friend is
7 already on her feet.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. I just wanted to seek some clarification
10 because the documents that we have are about investigations in around
11 1993. And the witness is apparently referring to proceedings that
12 happened when he was in charge in 2004 or so. So if there some
13 documentation of the later proceedings, then we could know exactly which
14 individuals we're talking about and which incidents, in order to know
15 what his investigation could or could not have revealed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, you could clarify that in
17 cross-examination, Ms. Friedman.
18 But, Mr. Bakrac, you know already that it's a matter which is of
19 some interest to Ms. Friedman.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to finish
22 in the next few minutes, and then I will, with your leave, allow my
23 learned friend Ms. Friedman to clarify that. And I allow that there have
24 been differences between arrests and some procedures between those that
25 were conducted in 1993 and 2004.
1 So let me ask the question again.
2 Q. As for the Skorpions, I suppose that, once again, you had files
3 and you conducted interviews?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Well, let me try to help my learned friend Ms. Friedman.
6 As for the Skorpions, what crime did this have to do with; and at
7 what time was the crime committed?
8 A. It was the crime which occurred in the territory of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina on Mount Treskavica, and it occurred in 1995.
10 Q. During your operative work, that is to say, taking statements and
11 receiving files from the prosecutor's office, did you establish any sort
12 of link between this group, i.e., the Skorpions, and the Ministry of the
13 Interior of the Republic of Serbia or the State Security Department of
14 the Republic of Serbia?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Mr. Gagic, before I thank the Bench for the time allotted, let me
17 just ask you something that I may have omitted.
18 You mentioned a member of the Novi Sad Corps Ivanovic, who used
19 to come to the training centre of the TO in Erdut. Can you tell us
20 whether you know his first name and whether you know the position he held
21 in the Novi Sad Corps?
22 A. His first name is Bora. Possibly Borislav, though I think it is
23 just Bora, and I think that he was the Chief of Staff in the command of
24 the Novi Sad Corps, which means that he was, by virtue of that position,
25 also the deputy of Major Biorcevic.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: General Biorcevic.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Your Honours, if you
3 would allow me just an additional two minutes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes. Please use them ...
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Gagic, do you know whether the Skorpions were engaged in
7 Kosovo in 1999?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know how they were engaged; and how did they arrive in
11 A. They were sent to Kosovo as the reserve forces, the reservist
12 part of the special anti-terrorist unit.
13 Q. Of what MUP?
14 A. The MUP of the Republic of Serbia.
15 Q. Did they have this status previously or did they get that status
16 at that time; and, if so, in what way?
17 A. They received that status immediately before their entry into
18 Kosovo. They even waited for about 20 days for their status to be
19 determined. And they reserved such a status at the proposal of
20 Vlastimir Djordjevic. The reason for that was that the commander of the
21 SAJ, Zivko Trajkovic, insisted that their status had to be determined and
22 that they -- he did not wish the presence of any paramilitaries in the
23 zone where he was conducting operations.
24 Q. And if I understood you correctly, after that, they got a status
25 within the public security service; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. These were
3 the two minutes that I asked for. Thanks a lot.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gagic. These were all the questions I had for
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. One matter. Document
7 2D1056, which is the military booklet, has not been assigned a number
8 yet. Madam Registrar, in order to have it marked for identification it
9 receives number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be for 2D1056, D694,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D694 is marked for identification. The original is
13 in the hands of Madam Registrar at this moment, available for inspections
14 by the parties.
15 Then I would like to briefly spend some time on scheduling
17 It was confirmed to me that we could sit next week, Monday, that
18 is, the 13th of February, in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00 until 7.00.
19 That we could sit on Tuesday, the 14th, also in the afternoon, quarter
20 past 2.00. And then we would sit on Wednesday, 9.00 -- from 9.00 to a
21 quarter to 2.00.
22 As far as witnesses are concerned, how much time would you need
23 for Witness DFS-011?
24 MR. JORDASH: Two hours, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Two hours.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Three and a half, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Which would bring us well into Tuesday already.
4 Would the next witness, which will be a Stanisic witness, be
5 ready on from Tuesday or Wednesday next week?
6 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. All the formalities have been completed --
8 MR. JORDASH: We're expecting -- Your Honour, yes. We're
9 expecting him to arrive on Sunday, we're expecting to proof him on
10 Monday, ready to begin on Tuesday.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Mr. Bakrac, gives this sufficient guidance for the witnesses who
13 come after that, because they certainly will not be -- how much time
14 would you need with your witness, Mr. Jordash, approximately?
15 MR. JORDASH: An afternoon.
16 JUDGE ORIE: An afternoon.
17 MR. JORDASH: So three hours, approximately.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that the witnesses coming after
19 that, Mr. Bakrac, will certainly not start the testimony next week.
20 We'll first have to see whether we can finish the testimony of the
21 witness, which is unlikely to happen.
22 MR. JORDASH: Yes. And we're still waiting for an estimate, I
23 think, from the Prosecution, so -- on that witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think Mr. Bakrac now has sufficient
25 guidance as not to bring in witnesses too early, and we know what to
2 Then we'd like to see you back on Monday afternoon, Mr. Gagic.
3 We'll start then at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
4 I again instruct you that you should not speak to anyone about
5 your testimony, whether the testimony you have given yesterday and today,
6 or whether that is the testimony still to be given next week.
7 Is that clear?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may follow the usher. And I'll see whether
10 on my list of procedural matters there's anything that could not wait
11 until Monday.
12 The witness may be escorted out of the courtroom.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: There's one brief matter, Mr. Jordash, I'd like to
15 raise, which is about Witness Pelevic.
16 You have objected during the examination of that witness that the
17 Prosecution had violated Rule 90(H)(ii). On the 31st of January, you
18 stated, when asked, that you did not seek an immediate ruling on your
19 objections but would make further motions on the matter at a later time.
20 The parties were instructed to at least discuss the matters among
21 themselves. Chamber staff received a copy of an e-mail asking some
22 questions from the Prosecution.
23 Is there any update to be reported at this moment?
24 MR. JORDASH: No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to hear from you as soon as possible,
1 because we have to, sooner or later, find out whether your objections
2 still stand or not. Well, the objections may stand, but what remedy you
3 are seeking.
4 MR. JORDASH: Well -- yes, we'll discuss it further.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you seek a remedy, it's about what
6 questions exactly that were put to that witness.
7 MR. JORDASH: Yeah.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?
9 Then we adjourn, and we will resume on Monday, the
10 13th of February, a quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom, II.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of
13 February, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.