Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17184

 1                           Monday, 13 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-03-69-T, The Prosecutor versus

10     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Mr. Gagic, before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you're

13     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

14     your testimony.  Is that clear to you?

15                           WITNESS:  GVOZDEN GAGIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you were about to start your

19     cross-examination.  Are you ready?

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gagic, you will now be cross-examined by

22     Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

23             Please proceed.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Gagic.

Page 17185

 1             I want to take you to 1991 and slightly before you went to

 2     Eastern Slavonia.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have on the screen, please, P1050.

 4        Q.   If you'd have a look at this exert, I want you to read page 93 of

 5     the English and 70 of the B/C/S.

 6             Now, what you're going to see, Mr. Witness, is a diary by a woman

 7     called Glisic, who was the secretary to minister of defence, Simovic, in

 8     1991.  Can I presume you know who Simovic is, or was?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The theme that I want to ask you about is the town of Apatin and

11     you've evidence about events in, I think, February of 1992, where Apatin

12     was subject to a terrorist attack.  You following me so far?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what I want to ask you about is Apatin prior to that and an

15     attack on Apatin which took place around the time of this reference in

16     the diary to 12th of November, 1991.

17             Would you just have a look at the page and quickly glimpse

18     through it?

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat, please.

20             MR. JORDASH:

21        Q.   Could you repeat what you just said, Mr. Gagic, please.

22        A.   You can go ahead with your question.

23        Q.   Let just read on.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Could we go to the next page, please.

25        Q.   I just want you to read the whole of this particular entry with

Page 17186

 1     reference to the title:  "When the town of Apatin was left without

 2     protection."

 3        A.   It's all right.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  And the next page, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is all right.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  And the next, until we get to page 246.

 7        Q.   And then I'll ask you some questions.

 8        A.   It's all right.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  And the next page, I think, and then we're done.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

11             MR. JORDASH:

12        Q.   Now, obviously this describes a number of things but one of the

13     main themes is the vulnerability of Apatin, the border town, including

14     raids by Croatian forces and also bombardment of Apatin.

15             Were these events that were professionally of interest to you,

16     or, if not professionally of interest, did you learn about them through

17     the media or through other sources?

18        A.   I knew of the serious and difficult situation in Apatin, both at

19     the time I was there and because of the mixed population living in the

20     area.  There was also the potential risk of incursions by the Croatian

21     army into the territory of Serbia.

22        Q.   And was this big news?  Was this across the media in Serbia, the

23     idea that Serbia was going to be drawn into the war through attacks on

24     its territory?

25        A.   Yes.  The attack itself on Apatin confirmed these assumptions,

Page 17187

 1     and these events at Apatin were breaking news and something that was

 2     widely covered in the media; whereas, what we have read in this report

 3     here was not the subject of media interest.

 4        Q.   Now if we go to page 245 of the B/C/S and page 95 of the English,

 5     you can see Mr. Sokolovic, the minister of the interior of Serbia,

 6     talking about a regulated issuances of arms to the populations of Sombor,

 7     Odzaci and Apatin, but also complaining that such people like General

 8     Pekic, were involved in illegal arming.

 9             Do you know anything about Sokolovic's complaints in that regard?

10        A.   Specifically about these conversations and complaints, no.  But I

11     was aware of the fact that a certain amount of weapons were distributed

12     outside of the legal institutions to the local population who abused or

13     misused the weapons they received, either by reselling them or by opening

14     fire when it wasn't strictly necessary to do so.

15        Q.   Were you aware of discussions within the Ministry of Interior

16     concerning how to deal with the protection of Apatin and the border

17     towns, with one option being the formation of an anti-terrorist unit?

18        A.   I was not aware of these discussions or the idea to form an

19     anti-terrorist unit in the area.

20             I don't think it could have gone further than entertaining this

21     idea because there was an anti-terrorist unit in Novi Sad, which is not

22     very far from this area.

23        Q.   Do you know, then, why Badza called upon members of the RSK MUP

24     to assist when Apatin was invaded by terrorists in February/March of

25     1992?

Page 17188

 1        A.   Apatin had not been taken by a group of terrorists in March of

 2     1992.  Rather, there was a terrorist group on the move in the area

 3     between Sombor and Apatin.

 4             Now, the reason why Radovan Stojicic, Badza, called in

 5     representatives of the Krajina MUP and volunteers was that he refused to

 6     receive a unit of ours, lest we weaken the protection of the border

 7     areas, since there were partial combat activities still going on in

 8     Slavonia.

 9             Now, the police in Serbia had already been preoccupied with

10     problems in Kosovo, so between 20 to 30 per cent of effective police

11     forces from Serbia were dispatched to Kosovo to maintain law and order

12     there.

13             The third reason, in my view, was the fact that in order to

14     neutralise this terrorist group, they needed a group of individuals who

15     had combat experience.

16        Q.   And the -- you've told us last week that the SAJ under Badza, did

17     engage in combat in Eastern Slavonia but was that, as far as you were

18     aware, the first time that they'd engaged in proper combat?

19        A.   Yes.  Admittedly, this was before my coming to Slavonia.  The

20     anti-terrorist unit did take part in combat and had sustained casualties

21     among its ranks.  So they did engage in proper combat and not just in

22     providing protection and security of persons and facilities which is what

23     they went on to do at a later date.

24        Q.   So just to understand the timing, they'd engaged in proper combat

25     in late 1991 and some of their number had been injured during that

Page 17189

 1     combat, in that period of time; is that right?

 2        A.   In mid-1991, they became involved in combat, so I got there in --

 3     in late 1991, and by that time, they had already been deployed to the

 4     Slavonia battle-field, and in the months of July and August, before

 5     September of 1991, they had taken part in combat.

 6        Q.   And were injured in the same year?  Or some of their number, I

 7     should say.

 8        A.   Yes.  Some of them were wounded in 1991.  As far as I know,

 9     during the later stay of that unit in the Slavonia battle-field, no one

10     came to be wounded.  That's to say, after the month of September of 1991.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just before you move from this document, let's

12     go to the page 246, the last page of this exert, and I want to ask you if

13     you know anything about General Simovic's comment there, when he notes

14     that the Ministry of Defence, or:

15             "We have been asked by the government of the

16     Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina to set up a training camp in

17     Prigravica, records need to be made."

18             Were you aware that the government of the Autonomous Region of

19     Krajina were looking to the Serbian Ministry of Defence to assist them

20     with training their combatants and the place where they sought to form a

21     training base was in Prigravica?  Were you aware of that?

22        A.   I was aware of that.  Prigravica is in the territory of Serbia;

23     in other words, not in Slavonia or in the Republic of Croatia.  It is

24     close to Apatin and to the brotherhood and unity bridge I testified about

25     earlier on.

Page 17190

 1             I think that this initiative from the SAO Slavonia, Baranja,

 2     Western Srem, or the SAO Krajina coincided with the setting up of a

 3     training ground's centre in Erdut.  By that time the idea had ripened and

 4     requests were sent, and the top police and military leadership decided -

 5     I don't know exactly when - that the training centre should be set up in

 6     Erdut, rather than Prigravica, which lacked the necessary infrastructure

 7     for such training grounds.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  May I tendered this as an exhibit, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objection.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Actually, it is already part of an exhibit.  I beg

13     your pardon, sorry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, at least certain portions are in

15     evidence, including the ones you referred to.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. JORDASH:  I have some more of the same book to show the

18     witness, but I think I will wait until the break to save some time.  And

19     I ask that the witness look at the pages over the break.

20             Can we go, please, to 1D5008.  And it's a judgement from the

21     district court in Sombor.  And what I'm interested in is the first eight

22     pages.

23        Q.   And I want you to just go through that very quickly just to

24     confirm that this is the judgement which arose from the terrorist

25     attempted incursion into Apatin in February/March 1992.  If you recognise

Page 17191

 1     the facts, then please say so?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise the facts?

 4             If we go to the next page, just so you're clear.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  And then if the Prosecution don't object, I would

 6     just like to tender these first eight page, which summarises the

 7     judgement.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be some problems in just admitting,

10     or just tendering, the first eight pages if it is uploaded as one

11     document.

12             MR. JORDASH:  We'll upload it, the first eight pages, with

13     Your Honour's leave.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You will have to do that then separately.

15             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

16        Q.   Do you recognise these facts as reflecting the incident you've

17     spoken about, which led to Operation Amfibija?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Then I'll apply to tender the first eight pages

20     in -- perhaps --

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  No objection, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And once they are uploaded, we will reserve a number

23     for them.

24             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The reserve number for first eight pages of

Page 17192

 1     1D5008 will be D695, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. JORDASH:

 4        Q.   Now, just moving you backwards a little bit to when you went to

 5     Eastern Slavonia, you spoke last week about the tasks that you were

 6     performing.

 7             Am I correct that your tasks were wholly limited to crime

 8     prevention or crime detection activities?  You and your unit, I mean.

 9        A.   Precisely so.  The unit focussed on prevention.  And my

10     engagement outside of the unit was of a mixed nature, both prevention and

11     training.

12        Q.   Training of who?  And for what?

13        A.   Well, the training side of the story is my engagement in the

14     formation of the the Secretariat of Internal Affairs in Vukovar, based in

15     Dalj, inasmuch as I was making certain suggestions and giving advice

16     about admission of staff into that secretariat, the way to organise it,

17     and adjusting legislation to the newly arisen situation because the

18     territory of Slavonia and Baranja did not have an institutionalised legal

19     system or a legal framework, whereas, the laws of the Republic of Croatia

20     had ceased to apply with the establishment of Krajina, so it was

21     necessary to start applying the laws that were in force in Serbia.  So I

22     had an instruction role in teaching them how to apply the legal

23     regulations from Serbia, and, in the beginning, how to draft

24     Official Notes and reports about incidents and, later on, we also worked

25     on regulations.

Page 17193

 1        Q.   That's a lot of description.  But are we talking about police

 2     work when you're talking about regulations, when you're talking about

 3     Official Notes and reports about incidents, and so on?

 4             Are we talking about police work?  Crime prevention work?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  That was part of the police work.  Police regulations,

 6     criminal regulations, criminal and trial rules; whereas, the prevention

 7     aspect in combatting crime was my presence in other police stations that

 8     were then controlled by the authorities of the Republic of Serbian

 9     Krajina, that is to say, western Baranja and Srem, and instructing staff,

10     because very few of them were trained policemen.  Most of the former

11     trained policemen had left, and police stations at that time were staffed

12     by less than 50 per cent of the professional policemen.  New admissions

13     were regular citizens who wanted to work in the police and met certain

14     criteria so they were employed, they were hired, without actual police

15     training.

16        Q.   I think what you said was that you went -- arrived there on the

17     29th of September of 1991.  At this point, most of the combats had

18     finished; is that right?

19        A.   No.  The combat had just started then.  The combat and the final

20     operations in Vukovar only started in end November that year.

21        Q.   Okay.  The police work that did you, was this the same for all

22     your colleagues who went with your unit, and also the unit that went to

23     Knin, as far as you're aware?

24        A.   Regarding the unit that went to Knin, I don't know any details.

25     All I know is that that unit did not stay in the same composition as when

Page 17194

 1     it left because many of members of that unit joined the police and army

 2     units in that area that were more developed than in Slovenia.  So the

 3     unit did not remain integral.  In fact, I think they ceased to exist a

 4     month after they were set up.

 5             As far as the involvement of my unit is concerned, only I was

 6     actually involved doing this training and instruction; whereas, the rest

 7     of the unit, all of them, only manned check-points on the bridge, apart

 8     from the first ten days when we were busy organising our own

 9     accommodation and doing some patrolling.

10        Q.   Did -- did -- let me just move you forward very briefly to 1995.

11             Did you hear about Serbian MUP police officers, about 400, being

12     sent from Serbia and Kosovo to Banja Luka to conduct similar crime

13     prevention activities?

14        A.   I know about MUP units sent outside the territory of Serbia.  The

15     same happened in the territory of Slavonia, only a bit later, after the

16     liberation of Vukovar, after the -- the end of fighting in Vukovar.

17             Some more units were sent from the MUP of Serbia to re-establish

18     law and order, and I think two units were sent to the area of Slavonia

19     towards Sid and Tovarnik.  Not the upper part, closer to Erdut and Dalj.

20     And I know about the sending of units to Banja Luka.

21        Q.   And that was under the authority of Badza.  Am I right about

22     this:  About 400 men were sent to try and restore some sort of law and

23     order in the towns some distance from the front lines?

24             Does that accord with what you know?

25        A.   Yes.  The units were sent on Badza's orders.

Page 17195

 1        Q.   Just so that we're clear, I just want to make it clear to the

 2     Court.

 3             You haven't spoken to the Stanisic Defence team before coming to

 4     court, have you?  We haven't contacted you; is that correct?

 5        A.   It's correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's return to 1991.

 7             You testified about checking traffic across the brotherhood and

 8     unity bridge.  Again, you were checking for illegal possession of arms in

 9     the main; is that right?

10        A.   I have to clarify that a bit.

11             A two-prong check was done on that bridge.  One check was done by

12     my unit, which, in terms of establishment, belonged to military police;

13     but in addition to us, there was a unit of military police made up of

14     professional troops who checked military vehicles; whereas, my unit

15     checked civilian vehicles, in order to avoid bottle-necks and jams on the

16     bridge.

17             In addition to preventing the traffic of arms and spirits across

18     the bridge, because alcohol was banned, we also looked for some items

19     that were in shortage to prevent smuggling, and we were trying to prevent

20     the export of property from Slavonia and Baranja as a form of combat

21     against looting.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Just let me return - sorry - briefly to the issue of

23     the 400 police officers in Banja Luka.

24             You said that the units were sent on Badza's orders, and I just

25     want to clarify who told you that and how you came by that knowledge.

Page 17196

 1        A.   I was present when the unit was leaving.

 2        Q.   Where was that; and when was that?

 3        A.   I was present in Belgrade when the unit was departing from a

 4     police training ground called the Zvezdara woods in Belgrade, and I knew

 5     many people from the unit.  Some of them from before; some from the days

 6     of war; and I had just come to say good-bye.

 7        Q.   And who else was present from the Serbian MUP?  Was --

 8        A.   On behalf of the Serbian MUP, Obrad Stevanovic was seeing the

 9     unit off.  And there were other higher- and lower-ranking officials of

10     the MUP.  Certainly around 50.

11        Q.   And was that meeting a briefing of sorts, where the objectives

12     and purposes of the mission were laid out clearly for you to hear?

13        A.   No, that meeting was not a briefing.  There were too many people

14     for a briefing.  Somebody made a short farewell speech, wishing them to

15     return alive and in good health and to be successful in the tasks they

16     were given.  It was just a short speech.

17        Q.   And why were you present?

18        A.   I've already said.  There were no less than 20 of my friends from

19     the service within the units that were departing.  I had come privately

20     without an invitation, without being part of the organisation, just to

21     see them off.  It's a kind of tradition where I come from.

22        Q.   And before I move on, I just want to understand as clearly as

23     possible where your understanding came -- where your understanding came

24     from in relation to what their tasks were going to be.

25             Was it from that meeting or prior to that meeting or -- or where

Page 17197

 1     did you learn that their job was to be normal police crime prevention

 2     jobs?

 3        A.   Well, I learnt earlier that the unit would be departing, and I

 4     had even expressed my desire to go with them.  However, my bosses did not

 5     allow me to go because the incidents of violent crimes in Belgrade was

 6     high, and this was complex work, and my superiors thought that I would be

 7     more useful dealing with this job in Belgrade than if I left with the

 8     unit.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. JORDASH:  Could we have -- let's move to a different subject.

11     1D02568, please.

12        Q.   I want to deal with the subject of General Boro Ivanovic, who you

13     mentioned you had seen him coming to Erdut on several occasions; is that

14     right?

15             MR. JORDASH:  That's, Your Honours, page 17141.

16        Q.   Mr. Gagic, could I just stop you from reading for a moment?

17             Were you aware that Ivanovic was tried in a military court for a

18     number of disciplinary offences, amongst them illegally giving arms to

19     the RSK; and, secondly, collaborating and co-operating and giving weapons

20     to Arkan and the Tigers?

21        A.   I know that there were some trials, but much later, after 1995.

22     However, at the moment when I met General Ivanovic, I did not know that

23     he was tried by a civilian or military court.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Have a look at the document very quickly.  It's a

25     1st Army intelligence document sent to the chief of the General Staff of

Page 17198

 1     the VJ, 22nd of September, 1994, and contains a number of allegations

 2     against Ivanovic, along the lines as I described.

 3        A.   Okay.

 4        Q.   And if we go to page 3 of the document, and 2 of B/C/S, please,

 5     sorry.  Three of the English and 2 of the B/C/S.  You'll see a record or

 6     a note there about collaboration between the military organ and the MUP,

 7     establishing Ivanovic's registration of certain cars, and his association

 8     with, as quoted there, "persons prone to criminal activity, particularly

 9     Zeljko Raznjatovic."

10             And you'll see there at the paragraph beginning with, "during

11     1993 ...," an allegation that Ivanovic is effectively using military

12     registration plates to provide Arkan with the means of crossing border

13     crossings.

14             Is something that you learnt about at the time or learnt about it

15     afterwards, Arkan using registration plates provided to him by Ivanovic?

16        A.   I didn't know that then, and I actually see this document for the

17     first time.  I don't know how true it is because the relationship between

18     Arkan and the people from the MUP was much closer.  So Arkan did not need

19     registration plates from Ivanovic, unless they were military registration

20     plates.  And there is no reason why a general of the army would be

21     providing licence numbers to Arkan.

22        Q.   But you can confirm - am I correct - that Ivanovic was

23     collaborating with Arkan?

24        A.   I would rather say that Arkan was collaborating with Ivanovic

25     because Ivanovic was the more important personality, at least at the time

Page 17199

 1     when I was there.  There was co-operation between the two.  It was

 2     visible.  I, myself, saw them together at least five times.  I know that

 3     they even planned some activities in that area together.  And I know that

 4     they co-operated closely later and were involved in some criminal

 5     dealings, like the cutting of a forest, et cetera.

 6        Q.   So Ivanovic and Arkan were involved in smuggling?  Is that what

 7     you're trying to convey to the Court?  And, in particular, the smuggling

 8     of the wood from a forest that they cut down?

 9        A.   You could put it that way.  I don't know if "smuggling" is the

10     right word, but they cut the wood illegally and sold it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we find out what the source of knowledge of

12     the witness is in this respect.

13             How did you learn this?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I came back, I left behind

15     many people with whom I remained in touch, and from talking to those

16     people who had remained in Slavonia, I learned that the wood was being

17     cut and sold without any official institution standing behind it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   I don't know if we've covered this, but I want to be clear.

21             Ivanovic subordinated Arkan to -- to him to conduct various

22     combat operations in 1991; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did that continue into 1992?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 17200

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I do have a statement from Ivanovic --

 2     not a statement that we took.  It's a potential exhibit.  But if the

 3     Prosecution don't dispute this subordination, as the witness has just

 4     testified, then I don't need to put the statement to him because in the

 5     statement Ivanovic admits to this.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Under what Rule would you put it in, Mr. --

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Well, I would ask the witness about the facts in

 8     this statement and I would ask it to be admitted as an exhibit pursuant

 9     to 89(C).

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But the statement was taken for the purposes of the

11     ICTY proceedings, you said?  Or not.

12             MR. JORDASH:  No, it was taken in relation to these military

13     disciplinary proceedings.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Let's first ask Ms. Friedman.  Is there any dispute about

16     resubordination?

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I don't think we have enough details about the

18     subordination on the basis of this witness's knowledge.  I can't say at

19     this time that we don't dispute it.

20             As for the statement, the Prosecution --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask you one thing.

22             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise for interrupting.

24             You say:  I don't think we have enough details for the

25     subordination on the basis of this witness's knowledge.

Page 17201

 1             Now, what I understand is that Mr. Jordash wants to ask you

 2     whether there was any dispute about a matter even for the purpose of not

 3     bothering this witness with it.  So your answer that, On the basis of the

 4     statement of the witness, we're unable to say whether it is in dispute,

 5     that seems to be a bit a circle reasoning.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I take your point, Your Honour.

 7             The issue of Arkan's subordination to the military is definitely

 8     a key issue in this case.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.  And is it in dispute?

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Then --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash --

14             MR. JORDASH:  [Overlapping speakers] ... more documents, if I

15     may.

16             Coudl I, fist of all, ask for this to be tendered as an exhibit.

17             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We do have any information on the provenance of

18     this document.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Can it can be MFI'd until we provide the

20     information, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, this document to be MFI'd will

22     receive the number?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2568 will be Exhibit D696,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  Please proceed.

Page 17202

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Can we have on the screen, please, 1D02510, please.

 2     Sorry, 1D2570.

 3        Q.   And what should be coming up, Mr. Witness, that you, I hope, will

 4     be able to help us with is more information, a report on bringing

 5     Major Ivanovic before the military disciplinary court, dated the

 6     6th of August -- sorry, the 6th of October, 1994.

 7             And just for your information, because we won't have time to read

 8     through everything, but this is a fairly comprehensive report, or

 9     purports to be, at least, on the various disciplinary offences alleged

10     against Major-General Ivanovic.  And it -- and it deals with his removal

11     from duty while he is being investigated.

12             And if we go to page 4.  No, let's stay -- sorry.  Let's go back

13     to page 2.  And we see there an allegation at number 1, alleging that as

14     the Chief of Staff and commander of the Novi Sad Corps in the period from

15     the 6th of January, 1992, to 2nd of August, 1994, he:

16             "Abused his official position and exceeded the bounds of his

17     official authority by acting in contravention to orders of the president

18     of the FRY and the General Staff of the VJ Chief of Staff and the orders

19     of the commander of the 1st Army forbidding the issuance of equipment and

20     materiel for use and utilisation outside of the units and institutions of

21     the Army of Yugoslavia," and so on?

22             And if we go over the page, we'll see the volume which is alleged

23     2.337 -- no I think that's 2 ... 2.337.179 pieces of various kinds of

24     ammunition and weapons and at least 205.725 litres of fuel.

25             Were you aware of these allegations against Ivanovic?

Page 17203

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Were you aware that he gave Arkan two tanks in 1991?

 3        A.   I did see the tanks, but I didn't know how the Arkan's Tigers had

 4     come by them.  I didn't know if it was the result of war assets having

 5     been redistributed or some sort of gift, though the latter was highly

 6     implausible.

 7        Q.   Were you aware, as is alleged in this document, that it was

 8     recommended that Ivanovic should be pensioned off, lose his job, as a

 9     result of his conduct?

10        A.   The facts related here clearly indicate that General Ivanovic

11     could clearly have been not just pensioned off but even have had his

12     employment terminated because these amounted to serious practices of

13     abuse of official position.

14             Probably in view of his many years of service in the army, it was

15     concluded that he should be pensioned off and then prosecuted as a

16     retired officer.

17        Q.   May I tender this --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, could we try to clearly found out what

19     the witness knows and what kind of conclusions he draws from documents,

20     Probably this is the case, and ...

21             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

22        Q.   Are you commenting on the seriousness of the allegations as laid

23     out in the document; or are you commenting on facts you know from outside

24     of this document concerning Ivanovic?

25        A.   Since I have never seen this document before, I could not have

Page 17204

 1     based my testimony on this document; rather, on certain facts that I know

 2     from before.  And my comment is that this amount of 2 million-odd pieces

 3     of weapons is exaggerated.

 4             As far as fuel is concerned, I think that it had to do with

 5     excessive consumption, which was admittedly still within bounds, and

 6     probably the army had entrusted the amount of fuel to third parties in

 7     the field without going back and checking up on what they were doing,

 8     without putting in records.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Gagic, do you have any knowledge whether

10     Ivanovic was ever prosecuted for these facts?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that criminal proceedings

12     were instituted against General Ivanovic post-1995.  He had not been

13     prosecuted earlier on or during the period I was in contact with him.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And what, then, did these criminal proceedings

15     result in?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the outcome of

17     the proceeding.  I don't think, though, that General Ivanovic was

18     convicted.  I'm not sure.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Was he acquitted?  I mean, did he have to appear

20     before a court?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the details

22     concerning his trial because he was tried before a military court, and

23     they do not allow to have a public gallery that would follow the

24     proceedings before that court.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it a military disciplinary court, or was it a

Page 17205

 1     military court which would impose sanctions as if it were a normal

 2     criminal case?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, it was

 4     a military court, not a military disciplinary court.  Rather, a military

 5     criminal court, which would have imposed the same sentences civil courts

 6     would impose in keeping with the legislation in force.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You say you think he was not convicted.  Was he

 8     then -- what -- what happened if he was not convicted when he had

 9     appeared before a court?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know the facts.  I

11     can only guess.  As I've said, these court proceedings were conducted

12     behind closed doors, and I was never taking much interest in that.  I had

13     never been a friend of General Ivanovic's to have any personal interest

14     in that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So it is as well possible that he was acquitted or

16     at least that he was not found guilty?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not rule out the possibility

18     that he may have been found guilty but imposed a rather lenient sentence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You just don't know; is that ...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I tendered this as an

23     exhibit.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

25             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We would await information on provenance for the

Page 17206

 1     document.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  MFI, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be MFI'd.  Madam Registrar, the

 4     number would be?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2570 will receive number D697,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 8             Mr. Jordash, it comes as a bit of a surprise that you couldn't

 9     even tell us where such a document which you apparently used with the

10     witness comes from.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Just could I just have a moment, please?

12             Can we have a few moments?  We will be able to find out, I think.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.  Could we have 1D02235, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, in order to avoid that everything

16     remains unclear on the transcript, I asked, or, I said that I was a bit

17     surprised that you had no knowledge about the provenance and then you

18     said you asked whether you could have a few moments so as to be able to

19     find out.

20             I do not know whether it was perhaps overlapping speakers which

21     might cause some problems at a later stage to finally make the

22     transcript.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. JORDASH:  Could I have just a minute to consult, please.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 17207

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Mr. Stanisic received the documents from --

 2     directly from Zoran Lilic, who obtained them, in some way, from the

 3     military security.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We would -- we have tendered official

 6     documentation when we have received documents from official authorities,

 7     so we would prefer to that that -- I can -- yeah, we would like to have

 8     more.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you verify whether -- you said you have

10     documents as well.

11             MS. FRIEDMAN:  No.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  The Prosecution --

12     our practice is when we tender documents to provide the official

13     correspondence and we do think that it's important to maintain that

14     level ...

15             MR. JORDASH:  Well, there isn't any official correspondence

16     because they were handed directly from Lilic to Mr. Stanisic.  That's the

17     route by which they came here.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman, might be slightly different to be in

19     the OTP or to be an accused to receive some documents from another

20     person.

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.  But it is somewhat problematic for us to

22     accept the word of the accused about provenance.  This could lead to

23     problems down the road.  I can -- we will have to consider our position

24     on this further, but for now we would like it to remain MFI'd.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It remains MFI'd for the time being.

Page 17208

 1             Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.  And I think the Prosecution could check

 3     with Mr. Lilic too.  He's one of theirs, I think.

 4        Q.   Let me -- I don't want to take you through this whole statement,

 5     Mr. Gagic, because it is quite detailed and contains Ivanovic's response

 6     to the allegations.  But I do want to take you to page 12 of the English

 7     and 7 of the B/C/S.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Any date for the document, Mr. Jordash?

 9             MR. JORDASH:  No.  I -- perhaps we can go to the last page which

10     contains the --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It says at least it was quarter past 5.00 in the

12     afternoon.  That is the beginning.

13             MR. JORDASH:  We'll try and find a date.  We can probably time it

14     with other documents, though, but we'll try and find a date.

15        Q.   Let go back, then, to page 12 of the English and 7 of the B/C/S.

16     And we'll find out what Mr. Ivanovic purports to say about his

17     relationship with Arkan:

18             "Asked to explain his acquaintance and relations to

19     Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, he replied, 'I met Zeljko Raznjatovic,

20     Arkan, in the Slavonia theatre in 1991, but I don't remember exactly when

21     or where.  In the course of combat operations, he was assigned to me

22     several times to carry out combat assignments with his men.  He carried

23     out combat assignments and nothing else.  I am not beholden to him in any

24     way, nor is he to me, and we do talk on the phone or call on each other.

25     And if we run into each other, we exchange greetings because we have

Page 17209

 1     fought together in the war, and I am making no bones about that.  I have

 2     no other relationship with him.  When I was Chief of Staff, he used to

 3     come and to see General Biorcevic at the command post on board the Kozara

 4     vessel, where we also used to meet.'"

 5             From what you've told us, is this correct?  From what you've told

 6     us, Ivanovic is not quite being as candid about his relationships with

 7     Arkan as he would have wanted the disciplinary proceedings to believe.

 8             Do you accept that?  Do you see my point?  Sorry.

 9        A.   Absolutely.  Obviously, according to this, General Ivanovic would

10     like to make his war contacts with Arkan public, whilst denying any other

11     contacts that they may have had outside of performing combat assignments.

12             He is obviously trying to suppress any other contacts he may have

13     had with Arkan.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the date seems to be the

15     2nd of August, 1994, if I look at page 2, but ... of the interview.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  Yes.  Sorry, I missed that.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. JORDASH:  May I tender this as an exhibit, please.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

20             MS. FRIEDMAN:  We have a few issues with this document.  There

21     is, of course, the provenance issue, but also anything, any statement of

22     a third party admitted under 89(C) should be subject to scrutiny.  We

23     have always presented arguments as to why a particular statement is

24     reliable and why it is admissible.  In this case, this is a

25     self-interested statement of somebody being investigated.  Also the

Page 17210

 1     witness did not appear to have much knowledge about anything in the

 2     document.

 3             So we would have to consider it further, but we do think that the

 4     Defence would have to meet the threshold of 89(C).

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Provenance, Mr. Jordash, to start with.

 6             MR. JORDASH:  That was the Lilic issue.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Lilic.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  And we agree with the Prosecution.  It's not a

 9     reliable statement.  It's a statement which we accept Ivanovic did not

10     tell the truth.  What it does do is say --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, if I understood the

12     position of the Prosecution well is reliability, is whether it is or is

13     not that it's unable to assess the reliability, and not that the

14     Prosecution agrees with you, that doubts as to the reliability of the

15     statement brings you together.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Oh, I thought we agreed about something.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman, did I understand your position well?

18             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I don't understand then the position.  If

20     the Prosecution suggests that the statement isn't reliable or the

21     contents of the -- that it isn't a genuine statement from Ivanovic.  Is

22     that the position or --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that not having the details that the

24     Prosecution would need a further, perhaps, verification of -- of whether

25     or not this document can be considered to be an authentic, whether the

Page 17211

 1     content of this statement reflects the truth, yes or not, and that you

 2     are unable to do so at this moment.

 3             Is that correctly understood?

 4             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.  And it depends very much on the

 5     circumstances of each case, but in this -- for the reliability of a

 6     statement we need to consider the way it is taken and other

 7     corroboration.  Whether it can be -- whether it is the most appropriate

 8     way to put the evidence on the record.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I suggest that we give some time to the

10     Prosecution to look at that and have it MFI'd.

11             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.  I would also add to that the

12     Prosecution could shortcut all of this by deciding what is a very narrow

13     point, whether they accept Ivanovic was -- did subordinate Arkan to him

14     on several occasions and did have a -- a relationship which also went

15     beyond -- this is a very -- an issue that the Prosecution ought to have a

16     position on.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman --

18             I think that Ms. Friedman explained that this is not a matter on

19     which she can agree at this moment, just as simple as that.  And I'm

20     getting more and more confused because you said it wasn't a reliable

21     document; wherein -- whereas in this document, Mr. Ivanovic says that he

22     assigned combat tasks to Arkan which ...

23             MR. JORDASH:  Well, it is our position that Arkan was in the main

24     subordinated to Ivanovic and Biorcevic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

Page 17212

 1             MR. JORDASH:  And [overlapping speakers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's reliable in that respect --

 3             MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you told me that you agree with Ms. Friedman

 5     that it's not a reliable statement.  But now I do understand that you

 6     consider it, at least in this respect, reliable.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  In that respect, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm just trying to understand your positions

 9     which are perhaps a bit more complex than reliable or not reliable.

10             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2235 will receive number D698,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

14             MR. JORDASH:  May we take a break Your Honour --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are late already, yes.

16             MR. JORDASH:  In that break, may I give -- I will have the

17     witness look at a section of Exhibit P1050, to save time after the break.

18             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please be so kind to read during

20     the break the document that will be given to you.

21             We will take a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past

22     4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, please proceed.

Page 17213

 1             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Gagic, I just want to return to the subject of Ivanovic

 3     allegedly providing military registration plates, because I think that

 4     there might have been some misunderstanding on your part.

 5             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honours, line -- sorry.  Page 15.

 6        Q.   I showed you the document which is now D696 MFI, and I asked you

 7     the question:

 8             "And you'll see there at the paragraph beginning with the,

 9     'during 1993 ...,' an allegation that Ivanovic is effectively using

10     military registration plates to provide Arkan with the means of crossing

11     border crossings.

12             "Is that something that you learnt about at the time or learnt

13     about it afterwards, Arkan using registration plates ..." --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

15             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to the

16     interprets but it is very important.  My colleague, Mr. Jordash, put the

17     question very precisely, identifying the kind of plates that were

18     provided, and in the B/C/S interpretation this was not specified.

19             I apologise to everyone, but this is very important.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you read the question again.  I do not know

21     exactly what the reason is, why you expect there to be a confusion, but

22     let's just -- if you slowly read it again, Mr. Jordash.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Could I -- perhaps I could summarise it what I

24     think is the confusion and ask the witness to deal with it in a more --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When I heard the answer of the witness earlier, I

Page 17214

 1     wondered whether he had any factual knowledge, that is, as a matter of

 2     fact, because he started explaining the why and the why not.  That's at

 3     least what I remember.  I would have to re-read that.  And we should

 4     carefully find out what the witness knows about it or whether he finds it

 5     logical or illogical or ...

 6             MR. JORDASH:  The -- what I'd like to do is ask him about -- if

 7     there was a confusion in his mind and then I'd like to take him to the

 8     document again and ask him some questions about the source of the

 9     information.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If we start by just reading again to him the

11     question and the answer and then ask him whether this is the answer he

12     intended to give, and then we'll find out.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Okay.

14        Q.   Mr. Gagic, I want to try to understand whether we've understood

15     each other.

16             The question I asked you was based on:

17             "... an allegation that Ivanovic is effectively using military

18     registration explanation plates to provide Arkan with the means of

19     crossing border crossing.

20             "Is that something that you learnt about at the time or learnt

21     about it afterwards, Arkan using registration plates provided to him by

22     Ivanovic?"

23             And you answered:

24             "I didn't know about that then, and I actually see this document

25     for the first time.  I don't know how true it is because the relationship

Page 17215

 1     between Arkan and the people from the MUP was much closer.  So Arkan did

 2     not need registration plates from Ivanovic unless they were military

 3     registration plates, and there is no reason why a general of the army

 4     would be providing licence numbers to Arkan."

 5             Now --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, if you first ask the witness whether --

 7     what was read to him reflects his answer.  That seems to be the first

 8     relevant question.

 9             MR. JORDASH:

10        Q.   Did you follow that, Mr. Witness?  Was that --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us whether what was read whether that

12     reflects the answer you gave?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the next question, the first one, at least,

15     would be:  What personal knowledge do you have about military

16     registration plates provided by Ivanovic to Arkan?

17             Do you know anything about that, whether that happened or ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that Arkan used

19     vehicles with military registration plates, he drove a car with civilian

20     licence plates, or without any licence plates.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do we then have to understand your answer

22     that, not knowing about what happened as far as licence plates are

23     concerned, that you told us whether you considered it to be logical or

24     illogical, that he would have been provided by Ivanovic with military

25     registration plates?

Page 17216

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems illogical to me that Arkan

 2     would have used military licence plates.  It seems -- it makes more sense

 3     to me that would have used civilian ones.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that.  That's what I -- that's

 5     how I understood your answer, that you wanted to explain to us how

 6     logical, or, as a matter of fact, how illogical it was that it would have

 7     happened as stated in that allegation.

 8             Is that what you intended to bring to our attention?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, whatever further questions you have --

11     I had some concerns about factual knowledge and -- or, conclusions on

12     logic.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But you shouldn't understand this as to be

15     exhaustive.  If you have anything else on your mind, please don't

16     hesitate to ask the witness.

17             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

18        Q.   The document where this allegation was made was a document

19     authored by somebody called Commander Colonel-General Jevrem Cokic.  Did

20     you, or do you know that gentleman?

21        A.   I know nothing about that general.

22        Q.   And you mentioned Kostic --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bakrac.

24             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it would be

25     fair for me to help my colleague, Mr. Jordash.

Page 17217

 1             First of all, we don't have the right page.  The name is on a

 2     different page.  And it was pronounced as Cokic, although it's

 3     Jeverem Sokic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is -- now, I take it that perhaps the

 5     interpreters have made Mr. Kokic Mr. Cokic, because I take it that that

 6     is how it is supposed to be pronounced.  There was some question about

 7     whether you have been provided with the right name.  I think you were.

 8     But does the name of Colonel-General Jevrem Cokic say anything to you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed --

11             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Jordash.

13             MR. JORDASH:

14        Q.   Kosutic means something to you, though; is that right?  Kosutic.

15        A.   Kosutic was not a general at the time, as far as I know.  I know

16     he was a colonel.

17        Q.   I'm not suggesting he was.  But was he part of the military

18     security or intelligence organ?

19        A.   Yes, he was an officer of the military security.

20        Q.   And would he have known about Ivanovic's collaboration with

21     Arkan?

22        A.   He was aware of that co-operation because he was present there -

23     at least when I was - in the Slavonia theatre of war.  Colonel Kosutic

24     was there at the same time.

25        Q.   And despite being aware of that collaboration, are you able to --

Page 17218

 1     do you know anything about whether he reported that to his senior

 2     officers or to the unit that he was part of?

 3        A.   I don't know whether he reported it or not, but I don't think so.

 4        Q.   He certainly didn't express or indicated to you or anyone else

 5     that he regarded that as a problem, did he, as far as you're aware?

 6        A.   Yes, you're right, because I'm speaking about the early days,

 7     1991, 1992, when the relations were more of a military and professional

 8     nature.  These events dealt with in the documents you've shown me relate

 9     to 1993, 1994, 1995, so what Kosutic later reported, I don't know.  But,

10     at the time, when I was there, he did not ask for any consultation with

11     me, nor am I aware that he had sent any report about irregularities in

12     the conduct of Arkan or General Ivanovic.

13        Q.   In relation to what you know about military code at the time,

14     would you have expected him to report that; and, if so, do you know why

15     he didn't?

16        A.   As I said, in the period when I was there, there were no such

17     irregularities, at least they were not pronounced.  They began later.  As

18     to whether Kosutic sent reports about it later, I really don't know.

19        Q.   Fair enough.

20             Now, I just want to deal with one more subject.  The trial of the

21     Skorpions, or members of the Skorpions for the murders at Trnovo, what

22     was your involvement with that prosecution?

23        A.   I was involved in those criminal proceedings in my role as chief

24     of service for the detection of war crimes in the MUP of Serbia from 2004

25     until 2006, and one of the cases that crossed my desk were the Skorpions.

Page 17219

 1        Q.   It crossed your desk in what sense?  Can you be concrete as to

 2     what you did in relation to that prosecution.

 3        A.   That is a longer story.  I will try to put it briefly.

 4             At the request of the War Crimes Prosecutor, I came to his office

 5     and I was told that a videotape would be viewed.  I put certain

 6     conditions before the playing of that tape because there were some people

 7     present there who were not from the police or from the office of the

 8     prosecutor.

 9        Q.   I'm running out of time and I want to be as specific as can I be.

10             Did you have a part to play in the investigation?

11        A.   My job, after receiving that videotape, was to arrest the men

12     identified from the videotape and bring them before an investigative

13     judge, and that's what I did, with my team.

14        Q.   And were you there present during the investigation, or at least

15     part of the investigation by the investigative judge?

16        A.   No.  Apart from the interview conducted on the premises of the

17     police, which was my right and my duty, I was not involved in the

18     pre-indictment proceedings, I did not attend the interrogation by the

19     prosecutor, or by the investigating judge.

20        Q.   So you -- you interviewed the various suspects as part of your

21     police duties; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  And I did not conduct all the interviews myself because

23     there were many suspects, and the time for their bringing into custody

24     was short so that my various team members conducted some of the

25     interviews.

Page 17220

 1        Q.   Can you remember the interviews that you did conduct, the names

 2     of the suspects?

 3        A.   I should like to look at the document that I have in my bag here,

 4     if possible.  But, if not, I spoke to the two Medic brothers.

 5        Q.   Why would you want to look at the document in your bag?  What is

 6     it and how would it help you?

 7        A.   The document lists all the men arrested in that operation, and I

 8     would not like to make a mistake about some names or some other details

 9     concerning them.

10        Q.   Do you think you interviewed more than the two Medic brothers?

11     Or was -- or were you only involved in those two interviews?

12        A.   I spoke only to the two of them, and very briefly.

13             My operative workers spoke to them in greater detail.  My job was

14     to co-ordinate the whole activity so I couldn't put aside five or six

15     hours to speak to one person alone.  My job was to co-ordinate, to work

16     out the schedule for bringing them before the judge, so I didn't speak to

17     any of them in detail.

18        Q.   And were you part of a team, then, who gathered the results of

19     the interviews, i.e., that you shared the information that had been

20     gathered from the interviews to work out what to do next in the

21     investigation?

22        A.   We did not conduct detailed interviews.  We relied on the story

23     told us by the perpetrators, because the case was developed by the

24     prosecution who had already collected some evidence already.  And we were

25     only asked to bring those persons into custody.  The prosecutor had all

Page 17221

 1     the documentation for the investigating judge ready.  So we just

 2     conducted a short interview to confirm their identity and to link them to

 3     the events.

 4        Q.   All right.  And am I correct from your interviews with the Medic

 5     brothers and the information you gathered during that investigation, none

 6     of the suspects were alleging that the Skorpions were under the command

 7     of the Serbian DB.

 8             Am I right?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I think the witness has already indicated that he

11     wouldn't be in a position to answer.  And I think Mr. Jordash is trying

12     to get around that.  Having not asked about the details.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Not having asked doesn't exclude for the possibility

14     that someone spontaneous makes an observation.  That's a ...

15             The witness may answer the question.

16             MR. JORDASH:

17        Q.   Am I correct?  None of the suspects, according to the evidence

18     you received during the interviews of the two Medic brothers or

19     information you gathered as part of the investigation, were alleging that

20     the Skorpions were under the command of the Serbian DB at the time of the

21     offence; is that correct?

22        A.   None of the suspects alleged they were members of the

23     State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia.

24        Q.   In fact, I'll take it one step further.

25             None of them were saying that they were even under the Serbian

Page 17222

 1     MUP, were they?

 2        A.   Yes, but I knew those facts already.

 3        Q.   What do you mean?

 4        A.   Well, in the period from receiving the documentation based on

 5     which we were to start the operation for their arrest, until that moment,

 6     ten days had elapsed, and I used that time to study the Skorpion unit.

 7     And, in that time, I already established they had no connection with any

 8     establishment in Serbia, either the Ministry of Interior or the

 9     State Security Service.

10        Q.   Thank you for the answer.

11             MR. JORDASH:  May we have on the screen 1D01321.

12        Q.   Were you engaged with this investigation until the final

13     judgement of the trial of the Skorpions?

14        A.   Could you repeat the question, please.

15        Q.   Were you engaged with this investigation until the final

16     judgement delivered by the War Crimes Court?  The judgement, as you can

17     see on the screen, which was delivered on the 10th of April, 2007.

18        A.   Well, I was involved.  But apart from the initial activities to

19     arrest them, I was engaged only once later in arresting one person that I

20     believe was not part of the first batch of arrests, and collecting some

21     additional information about that person, there were no more requests for

22     me.  So my involvement ended when I arrested them and brought them before

23     the investigating judge.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Can we go to page 55, please, of the English and 58

Page 17223

 1     of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   I want to ask you about various parts of the judgement and see if

 3     it accords with the information you gathered during the investigation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, the witness has told us that he was not

 5     involved in the -- apart from studying that.  So let's be careful there.

 6     And let's first ask him whether he knows anything about A, B, or C, and

 7     then, if he know, then we can compare that with the judgement.

 8             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems to be the appropriate way of --

10             MR. JORDASH:  I'll certainly do that.

11             JUDGE ORIE: -- dealing with the matter.

12             MR. JORDASH:

13        Q.   Let me see if you can agree or --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness starts reading already parts of ...

15             Could you please stop reading and first focus on Mr. Jordash.

16             MR. JORDASH:

17        Q.   Was -- is this the information that you gathered during the

18     investigation; that, firstly, that the Skorpions were paid by the company

19     NIK?  They were employees of that company.

20        A.   Yes.  They were on the payroll of that company.

21        Q.   And from what the suspects were saying at that time, no one else

22     paid them.  It was -- their income came from the Krajina Oil Company;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.  And their income was quite sufficient, even higher than the

25     income of most people who worked in that area at the time.

Page 17224

 1        Q.   And the suspects -- sorry.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- could I'm just trying to find out -- could

 3     you tell us about -- you say they were on the payroll.  At what point in

 4     time did you investigate that?  And how did you investigate that?  If you

 5     did.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I knew that they were

 7     established as a service for providing security to the oil company of

 8     Krajina.  I knew that because I had occasion to see them even when I was

 9     working in the Krajina.

10             And then, later, after they were arrested and I spoke to them,

11     they claimed they were paid until enter 2005 only as security men working

12     for that oil company of Krajina.  And later on, they received some part

13     of their income through the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that

14     is.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that part of the interview you had with the two

16     brothers, that they told you this?  Was that part of what was asked?  And

17     was that what they stated to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  They were asked, and I

19     insisted on that question about all the sources of their income.  And

20     they told me, Our salaries at the time were quite sufficient, even much

21     higher than the average so we didn't need any additional income.  And

22     they received their equipment from the government of the RSK; that is,

23     the -- the fund -- the government fund of the RSK.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was an Official Note made of that interview

25     with the two brothers?

Page 17225

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A joint report was made.  And there

 2     were no Official Notes resulting from the two separate interviews.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And this was part of the interview before --

 4     after their arrest but before they were brought before the investigating

 5     judge.  Is that correctly understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             And may I then take it that you heard that from the two brothers

 9     but that your colleagues may have heard it from the other accused but not

10     you, yourself?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard it myself, as did other

12     colleagues.  Because they were asking almost identical questions.

13             So this wasn't in dispute in any way.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But you heard it from those persons you had

15     interviewed; and you did not directly hear it from others, which you did

16     not interview?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.

19             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   Did you hear from the Medic brothers that they'd been -- who sent

21     them to Trnovo?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And what did they say?

24        A.   That they had been sent by the Ministry of Defence of the

25     Republic of Serbian Krajina, and that Milanovic, aka Mrgud, the

Page 17226

 1     then-minister of the defence of the RSK, or deputy minister, because his

 2     positions changed, assigned them to that task.

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Could I just take instructions, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. JORDASH:

 7        Q.   Could I ask you this, I don't know if you will be able to deal

 8     with this or not but are you able to -- do you know anything about the

 9     Trnovo front at the time the Skorpions were sent to the Trnovo front?

10             Do you know anything about the military operations that had been

11     ongoing there for some time?

12        A.   I know that there was fierce fighting at the Trnovo, which is

13     close to Sarajevo.  There was a threat from the Muslim armed forces who

14     wanted to seize the area of Trnovo and, thus, get behind the Serbian

15     forces.

16             Other members of the Army of Republika Srpska had to be engaged

17     elsewhere, in other fronts, and care had to be taken to ensure that the

18     area did not fall into Muslim hands.

19        Q.   And before I ask you how you know this, do you confirm this:

20     That if Trnovo had fallen, Sarajevo and Pale would have been encircled?

21             Are you able to comment on that?

22        A.   Well, it is a bit too wide an area to say that Sarajevo and Pale

23     would have been encircled.  Pale would have been encircled, indeed;

24     whereas to encircle Sarajevo, it would have taken much more than that

25     line coming from Trnovo, but Pale would definitely come under threat.

Page 17227

 1        Q.   So basically Trnovo was critical for the survival of Pale and the

 2     headquarters of the Bosnian Serbs?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  That position was highly significant and had to be

 4     defended by stronger forces.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And how do you know that?  What's your source of

 6     knowledge?

 7        A.   I came to know all these facts only at the time I started working

 8     on the Skorpions case.  Before then, I had heard of Pale but not of

 9     Trnovo and the threat against Trnovo.  I got to know all these details

10     whilst I was working on the case involving the Skorpions and the arrests

11     that I made.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just ask you about one aspect of the --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash, could you -- next time

14     could, you please first ask about the knowledge.  Because -- the source

15     of knowledge.  Because, to some extent, you've asked opinion from the

16     witness rather than knowledge.  I mean, his assessment of what would

17     happen, et cetera, et cetera.  So I think if we stick to facts and then

18     we know the source of knowledge of those facts, and then it is clearer,

19     separated from opinion, because there was quite a lot of opinion that you

20     asked the witness -- or at least he gave opinion in his answers.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. JORDASH:

23        Q.   How did you get these details about the importance of Trnovo to

24     Pale?

25        A.   I had a briefing with a prosecutor, the one I was just about to

Page 17228

 1     tell you about, and, on that occasion, I learned all the details related

 2     to the case, to that particular event.

 3             The prosecutor briefed me on the broader context and background

 4     to these events because, by then, the prosecutor had prepared much more

 5     voluminous material than had actually been forwarded on as part of the

 6     minutes.

 7        Q.   And am I correct that the prosecutor never briefed you,

 8     suggesting that there was a link between the military operations in

 9     Trnovo and the military operations in Srebrenica?

10        A.   I wasn't aware of these facts before I viewed the tape.  And once

11     I viewed the tape, the prosecutor told me that regardless of the fact

12     that Trnovo was 150 kilometres away from Srebrenica, the individuals had

13     most likely come from Srebrenica.

14        Q.   Thank you.  No further questions.

15             Thank you, Mr. Witness.

16             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jordash.

18             Ms. Friedman, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

19             You would say, apart from the furniture, you are?

20             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If you return it to Mr. Jordash, he has tasked you

24     with something.

25             MR. JORDASH:  Perhaps can I deal with that by -- through the


Page 17229

 1     bar table procedure with the Prosecution later.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And discuss it with Ms. Friedman.  I have got no

 3     idea what the document is about, so I can't express any -- any opinion on

 4     that.

 5             Mr. Gagic, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. Friedman.

 6     Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution.

 7             Please proceed, Ms. Friedman.

 8             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           Cross-examination by Ms. Friedman:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Gagic.  Can you hear me clearly?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can.

12        Q.   You testified that in September 1991, two units of volunteers

13     from the Belgrade SUP joined the military units in the

14     Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.  Two units were set up.  They didn't join;

16     rather, they became military police units.  As they were leaving

17     Belgrade, they were already military police units, as such.

18        Q.   And most of these police officers had originally come from

19     Croatia.  But just to be clear, at the time that these military police

20     units were comprised, all -- all of you were employed by the Serbian MUP;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  At the Belgrade SUP.

23        Q.   Which fell within the Ministry of Interior of the

24     Republic of Serbia; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  The Belgrade SUP was one of the units within the

Page 17230

 1     organisation of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia.

 2        Q.   And you continued to be employed by the Ministry of Interior of

 3     the Republic of Serbia even as the military police unit within the

 4     Novi Sad Corps [sic]; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you reported at that time to the head of the

 7     Territorial Defence, Radovan Stojicic, also known as Badza; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  My unit's commander.

 9        Q.   Badza -- was Badza your unit's commander then?

10        A.   No.  Badza was the commander of the overall TO Staff; whereas,

11     our unit had its commander.

12        Q.   And that was Veljko Bogunovic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And Veljko Bogunovic reported to Badza; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You testified that when you arrived:

17             "A number of SAJ, special anti-terrorist units, headed by

18     Radovan Stojicic, Badza, were also there in Slavonia."

19             That's at T.17122.  And these officers were also employed by the

20     Serbian MUP at the time; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Was this unit, the SAJ unit, also referred to as Plavi at the

23     time?

24        A.   No.  The unit didn't have a name.

25        Q.   Were you aware of the presence of a unit called Plavi?

Page 17231

 1        A.   No.  Though there were a great many units with various names, so

 2     I cannot rule out the possibility that there was one such unit, although

 3     I can't say that I had known about it.

 4        Q.   Now, back to the SAJ unit.  You said it doesn't have a name.  How

 5     is it referred to?  How did you know who I meant?  What name should we

 6     attribute to it to make it clear?

 7             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

 9             MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It seems to me that my learned

10     friend is trying to confuse the witness.  The Prosecutor did quote what

11     the witness had to say about it in -- in direct examination.  But he was

12     talking about elements of that unit in Slavonia, not about the unit as a

13     whole.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please refrain from analysing and -- the

15     testimony tells us what the witness said.  You may make an objection if

16     you want to, but preferably not in this way.

17             Let me have a look at the --

18             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Could I rephrase my question, Your Honour?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if you would first give me an opportunity

20     to re-read it.

21             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, absolutely.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may rephrase it.  But I may have a comment

23     after that.

24             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   I asked you just a moment ago about the SAJ anti-terrorist unit

Page 17232

 1     that was present already in Eastern Slavonia when you arrived, and after,

 2     when I asked you if they were called Plavi, you said they didn't have a

 3     name.  So I just wanted to clarify were they called then the SAJ

 4     anti-terrorist unit?  Is that their name?

 5        A.   They were members of the SAJ.  They were only a part of it.

 6     There were ten to 12 at the most, and they never worked as a unit.  They

 7     worked as individuals who were there next to the TO Staff commander,

 8     Badza.  They never functioned as a group and had a name as a group.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My comment would be that you ask the witness

10     about the unit he spoke about earlier.  And then to later ask him, How

11     did you know which I meant, you had clearly indicated that you meant to

12     refer to the unit the witness testified about it.  So, therefore, that

13     was a question which should have left out.

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.  I think it is now very clear.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:

17        Q.   According to your testimony, these members of the SAJ unit

18     trained Arkan's Men, and also:

19             "Participated in the execution of combat actions, and they also

20     worked on the security of the TO headquarters and personally security of

21     Radovan Stojicic, Badza."

22             Are you aware whether they also were engaged in escorting

23     prisoners from Baranja to Eastern Slavonia, travelling through Serbia?

24        A.   I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   And you described the people who were billeted in Erdut as the --

Page 17233

 1     along with you in -- about ten days later, as the commander of the TO

 2     unit with his deputy and assistant and members of the special

 3     anti-terrorist unit who were securing the commander and his deputy and

 4     also performing other tasks.

 5             So does that refer to Badza, Zavisic and the SAJ members?

 6        A.   Yes.  It refers to Badza.

 7        Q.   And was his deputy Zavisic?

 8        A.   I didn't hear the rest of your question.  I'm sorry.

 9             Yes, it does refer to Commander Badza, Trajkovic, and Zavisic.

10        Q.   Did any other units or members of units of the Serbian MUP

11     police arrive -- of the Serbian MUP arrive after you, to your knowledge?

12        A.   I know that two units arrived, but that was only after the combat

13     activities in Vukovar ended.  So it could have been December of 1991 or

14     January of 1992.  Of these two units, two police stations were set up,

15     but these two police units and stations gravitated towards Sid, which was

16     a different area of Slavonia.  I wasn't in -- in contact with them

17     frequently, but I did have occasion to see them there.

18        Q.   So when you arrived in September, between your units and the ones

19     already there, there were probably about 50 to 60 Serbian MUP police

20     officers; is that right?

21        A.   Well, roughly 60.  With my unit and the rest who were there,

22     including, Badza, Trajkovic, Zavisic and all the others, well, just under

23     60.

24        Q.   Do you know who Badza was reporting to?

25        A.   I don't know exactly, but I can draw my conclusions.  He reported

Page 17234

 1     to the minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia and the

 2     commander of the corps under which he was engaged in combat.  And so he

 3     would be reporting to these two structures, but when and under which

 4     circumstances, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Just to clarify, you were asked in direct examination who you

 6     placed yourselves under.  But your unit, I presume, did not decide who

 7     would be its commander.  This was decided by the Serbian MUP leadership;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, when you testified the other day, you said that the

11     permission -- or, first, just to --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman.

13             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we also try to find out exactly what the basis

15     of the knowledge of the previous answer is.

16             You confirmed that your commander -- who your commander would be

17     was decided by the Serbian MUP leadership.

18             Do you know any further details about -- did he tell you or --

19     how did you become aware of who had appointed your commander?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I joined the unit literally

21     one day before the unit set off.  I was away for private reasons and was

22     not working for some ten or so days.  So that, by the time that I heard

23     that the unit was being set up, I went to the location where the unit was

24     supposed to gather, and by that time there was already the leadership

25     structure in place.

Page 17235

 1             Later on, in conversation with Rade Markovic, who was the chief

 2     the SUP in Belgrade, I was told that it was the minister himself who

 3     suggested that Bogunovic be appointed the unit's commander.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:

 7        Q.   In the summary of your evidence provide by the Simatovic Defence

 8     team, it originally stated that the deployment was approved by

 9     Rade Markovic.  And then we received a correction that you made shortly

10     before the testimony where you said that the minister was actually

11     Sokolovic, not Markovic.

12             Now when you testified the other day, you said that the

13     permission for the unit was granted by:

14             "The then-chief of the Secretariat of Interior, Rade Markovic,

15     and the then-minister of the interior, at the time, Radmilo Bogdanovic."

16             You then corrected yourself, saying that Zoran Sokolovic was

17     already minister by then.

18             And my question to you is:  Whether that slip of the tongue is

19     actually due to the fact that Bogdanovic did still continue to play a big

20     role from behind the scenes although Sokolovic was minister.

21        A.   No.  The slip came about because the ministers changed in a very

22     short period of time so that, hence, the slip of the tongue,

23     Radmilo Bogdanovic was the minister for a couple of months; whereas,

24     Zoran Sokolovic was there for a few months only.  So most of these events

25     and goings-on were related to Bogdanovic.  But I am not aware of the fact

Page 17236

 1     that Radmilo Bogdanovic continued playing a prominent role after

 2     Sokolovic replaced him.

 3        Q.   When you say "most of these events and goings-on were related to

 4     Bogdanovic," which events and goings-on are you referring to?

 5        A.   Well, the specific situation at hand.  The war that was in the

 6     offing, the events in Lika, the log revolution.  All the various events

 7     that characterised 1991, or roughly the summer of 1991.  And for most of

 8     that period, the minister was Radmilo Bogdanovic.

 9        Q.   We heard evidence that there was a meeting in September 1991 at

10     the Belgrade SUP where the situation in Croatia and the need to send

11     police there was discussed.  It actually took place in the theatre, in

12     the Belgrade SUP building.  I take it you were at that meeting?

13        A.   There were such meetings happening on a daily basis.  There

14     wasn't just one.  I attended some of these meetings whenever my

15     acquaintances from the war-affected areas had requests made of me to

16     forward them at these meetings.  Also to my crime police service, I also

17     had access to the chief of the Belgrade SUP where I would convey the

18     information.  So the meetings were held periodically but the conclusion

19     was that there was nothing we could do but exert additional pressure on

20     the JNA to protect the people.

21        Q.   Did you attend a meeting, though, discussing your deployment to

22     Eastern Slavonia?

23        A.   Well, I joined the unit.  There was no meeting.  I joined the

24     unit, and then I informed my superiors of the fact that I had joined a

25     unit only at the time when it was quite clear that I would be a member of

Page 17237

 1     that unit.

 2        Q.   Now, these other meetings that you said were happening at the

 3     time that you did attend, was Mr. Stanisic ever present?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   You testified that you continued to be employed by the

 6     Serbian MUP.  Isn't it also a fact that the Ministry of Defence would not

 7     have a record of you being a member of the army, nor someone who had been

 8     engaged in professional military service as an officer, non-commissioned

 9     officer, or professional soldier; is that correct?

10        A.   The leadership of the army must have information that I was a

11     member because I had received a military police ID with my photo on it

12     indicating my P.O. Box, to which I belonged, in the Novi Sad Corps.  Such

13     a document must have been recorded in the archives of the army, and that

14     applies not only to me, but all 40 members of my unit.  We all had such

15     IDs.

16        Q.   Okay.  Well, just to be upfront with you, I'm not going to call

17     up this document right now, but we've asked for such a record from the

18     Ministry of Defence and they've returned a letter stating that they don't

19     have any record of you being a professional soldier or registered with a

20     Territorial Defence organ.

21             So, that's their position on it.  Does -- would you dispute that?

22     And ...

23        A.   Yes, yes.  And I can prove it.  I mean, I can't prove it, but I

24     believe there are members of my unit that still have that ID, and I

25     believe I could get it, get such IDs through my lawyer, and he would

Page 17238

 1     submit them to you later.

 2        Q.   Yes.  I understand.  We have seen, as well, your military ID.

 3     What I'm talking about is a bit different.  We'll see.  Perhaps I will

 4     show you that document.  We can resolve it.

 5             But moving on for now.  You stated that you did not take your

 6     Serbian MUP ID with you and you took your military booklet instead.  Was

 7     this a specific instruction that you received from the Serbian MUP

 8     leadership?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you crossed into Croatia carrying personal side-arms;

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   So crossing into Croatia without MUP ID and not being a JNA

14     soldier, armed, would have been illegal at the time, wouldn't it?

15        A.   Well, in principle, it would be illegal.  But since this was an

16     organised crossing, in a bus bearing police markings, we crossed quite

17     normally.  Nobody asked any questions.

18        Q.   Yes.  And you stated that:

19             "The forming of the unit and its departure to Slavonia was no

20     secret, nor was there any reason for the formation of such a unit to be

21     secret."

22             Now, it was no secret to you, but surely if you did not have your

23     Serbian MUP IDs, then the fact that you were Serbian MUP employees must

24     have been a secret to some people in the area.

25        A.   No.  Not for a moment was the fact that we were members of the

Page 17239

 1     MUP hidden from the locals or others.  On the contrary, we insisted on

 2     it.  We emphasised it.

 3        Q.   Was it also not hidden, then, to the UN forces when they arrived?

 4        A.   I don't know whether that was concealed from the UN because very

 5     soon after their arrival, I left the area at my own request, and I didn't

 6     have any contact with the UN.  But whether anyone concealed our presence

 7     from them, I don't know.

 8        Q.   And you testified that in addition to your personal arms, you

 9     received additional weapons from the TO defence arms depot; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you stated that these types of weapons, based on what they

12     were, they could have been weapons belonging to the JNA; correct?

13        A.   The JNA or the Territorial Defence.  Those were infantry weapons.

14        Q.   But my understanding is that you don't have any specific

15     knowledge as to how the weapons arrived in that TO depot, how or -- or

16     when.

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And your information that Arkan's Men got their supplies there,

19     from my understanding, was based on seeing one of their vans at the depot

20     on one occasion; is that correct?

21        A.   I saw the ammunition being loaded onto the vehicle, not by the

22     depot.  The vehicle could pass by the depot on any account whatsoever,

23     even when the combat equipment is being loaded.

24        Q.   Just to -- I just would like to confirm that that's the only

25     information you have on how Arkan was armed; is that right?

Page 17240

 1        A.   Even just by looking, I noticed that members of his unit had

 2     weapons that was, until then, the exclusive prerogative of the JNA.  The

 3     paramilitaries did not have access to that kind of weapons.  But when I

 4     saw those weapons in their hands, I knew that they were being supplied by

 5     the JNA.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I think this would be -- I believe it's time for a

 8     break.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for a break.

10             MS. FRIEDMAN:  It would be a good moment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break and resume at five minutes to

12     6.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman, you may proceed.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Gagic, before the break, I asked you about your records, or

18     lack of records with the Ministry of Defence, and you stated that you had

19     an ID that you could ask your lawyer to produce.  Could you explain,

20     please, what kind of ID you're referring to.

21        A.   It must have been a misunderstanding.  There is a separate ID

22     unrelated to the military booklet that I gave to you and that is still in

23     the secretariat.  It's an official ID of the military police of the

24     Yugoslav People's Army.  I didn't mean to get it from my lawyer.  I meant

25     that through your lawyers I would, perhaps, get that document to you from

Page 17241

 1     one of the members of my unit, because my own ID has been destroyed.

 2        Q.   I see.  So this is a Territorial Defence -- a military police ID;

 3     is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And when was yours destroyed?

 6        A.   My copy was destroyed during the bombing of the MUP building in

 7     1999.

 8        Q.   And the other -- you said that some other members of your unit

 9     may have theirs.  Those are members of your military police unit in

10     Eastern Slavonia?

11        A.   Yes.  I mean those 40 members of the unit who went with me.  I

12     think - in fact, I'm sure - some of them still have their IDs.

13        Q.   Can you give us any of their names so that we could check, follow

14     up on that?

15        A.   Veljko Bogunovic.

16        Q.   He was the commander?

17        A.   Yes.  Ninko Tarbuk, Dusan Knezovic.

18        Q.   And your military ID was maintained at the building of the MUP

19     Serbia?  It was kept there?

20        A.   That military police ID was in my locker in the building of the

21     MUP of Serbia, but it was in my desk.  I didn't have time to get it out

22     because a few days before the bombing of the building I was on field

23     mission, so I failed to pick up my personal things, and many of my

24     personal items, including that ID, remained in the desk and were

25     destroyed during the bombing.


Page 17242

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to move on to a different area.

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Can we please have D303, MFI.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is under seal, Your Honours.

 4             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Oh, yes.  Can we go into private session, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             MS. FRIEDMAN:

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Gagic, you have already been asked about this report

20     during ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the formal status, of course, is --

22             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE: -- still confidential so that it should not be shown

24     to the public or the status should change and just say, We all agreed,

25     there was actually no reason for it.  That is, in itself, not sufficient.


Page 17243

 1             Therefore, would you apply to change the status or ...

 2             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would apply to change the

 3     status.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And then other parties.  Do I understand -- provided

 5     by Mr. Stanisic.

 6             Any objection, Mr. Jordash?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber relies on the accuracy of what the

11     parties have told the Chamber.

12             D303 becomes a public document.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Mr. Gagic, you saw this document last week, and it's a report of

16     the Serbian DB dated the 3rd of May, 1991.  And it states, quote -- it

17     states - sorry - that the situation has:

18             "Led some representatives of the Serbs in these areas to turn to

19     the Serbian MUP for help in the form of a greater presence of JNA units

20     in the wider area."

21             Do you recall looking at this document?

22        A.   I saw this document here, at this trial, a few days ago.  I had

23     no occasion to see it before.

24        Q.   And you testified that you assumed that the political pressure

25     was exerted:

Page 17244

 1             "... for the MUP to have the army get out of the barracks and to

 2     carry out patrols and secure the area in this matter."

 3             Is it your evidence that the intention was for the army to

 4     perform policing work rather than aggressive attacks?

 5        A.   I think that's how we can interpret it because the police forces

 6     in that area did not exist, apart from the police force of the MUP of

 7     Croatia.  They did not deal with keeping law and order.  They were

 8     causing unrest rather than suppressing them and it was necessary to have

 9     a presence of some uniformed organs to restore peace and to prevent

10     disturbances.

11        Q.   And the document is marked strictly confidential, and if we look

12     at the top right of the document, we see that there's also a caution that

13     says: "Return after reading!"

14             This comment, "Return after reading!," indicates a very high

15     level of secrecy.  Wouldn't you agree?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And it is uncommon, isn't it, to see this type of instruction on

18     an information report or an Official Note like this one.

19        A.   Well, it may sound unusual to you but it is not at all unusual.

20     I don't see from the document to whom it was sent.  I can only see who

21     authored it, but I don't see to whom it was sent.  But it's normal even

22     when sending something to the highest leadership like members of

23     Parliament to ask them to return the documents after reading rather than

24     keeping them.

25        Q.   So you say that you've seen this type of remark before?

Page 17245

 1        A.   I've seen documents that I was required to return after reading

 2     too.  But I didn't see this document and this type of document that I was

 3     not a recipient of except here, at the trial.

 4        Q.   Now, you were asked last week to view a video-clip containing

 5     remarks of Branko Kostic, vice-president of the SFRY Presidency.  And you

 6     said that:

 7             "People are given promises that they would be protected from an

 8     escalation of conflicts and that they would be provided safety to

 9     alleviate the fears that they felt toward the Croatia police."

10             Is it your evidence that your deployment in September 1991 was

11     connected to the fear that the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia felt as a result

12     of Croatian police officers?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When you arrived in Dalj, though, in September 1991, it had

15     already been taken over by the JNA; correct?

16        A.   The Territorial Defence.

17        Q.   After the JNA had entered on the 2nd of August; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the only police forces in Dalj at that time were comprised of

20     police officers of Serbian ethnicity; is that correct?

21        A.   There were also policemen of Muslim ethnicity.

22        Q.   Were the people -- was the police force predominantly Serb

23     though?

24        A.   Yes.  But ...

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

Page 17246

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what you just said.

 2             You said:

 3             "Yes.  But ..."

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police force was very small

 5     numerically, insufficient.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:

 7        Q.   And it was the same in Erdut and all of SBWS, in fact, wasn't it,

 8     that there was no longer a predominantly Croat police force.  It was at

 9     that time predominantly ethnic Serb?

10        A.   Part of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja had a police force of

11     precisely that composition.

12        Q.   I see, actually, that one of your answers is not recorded in the

13     transcript.

14             I asked after whether when you arrived it was after the JNA had

15     already entered.  And you answered "The Territorial Defence."  And then I

16     asked "After the JNA entered on the 2nd of August; isn't that right?"

17             Could you repeat your answer to that question?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer was yes.

19             MS. FRIEDMAN:

20        Q.   Thank you.  That was just to fill in the transcript.

21             Now, you testified last week that as a result of your work, you

22     would communicate with large numbers of policemen from other republics

23     and therefore knew a lot of policemen who came to Serbia after they'd

24     left Croatian service on their own or were dismissed.

25             So, you testified that:

Page 17247

 1             "The majority of them contacted me asking me to help them resolve

 2     their status."

 3             Did you inform the Serbian DB about who had contacted you?

 4        A.   No.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Would the Court Officer please display 65

 6     ter 1D2439.

 7             The document is entitled:  "List of suspended (fired) police

 8     employees in the territory of Slavonia and Baranja, engaged in the

 9     defence of certain locations."

10        Q.   I want to ask you -- I take it you recognise some of the names on

11     this list?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, there's a pen at your desk.  I would like -- on the screen

14     in front of you, I would like to ask if you can take that pen.

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Perhaps the Court Usher will show you.

16        Q.   Can you put a check mark, please, next to the people that you

17     know.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   You know, I realise, actually, that it may be a little hard to

20     tell, just because of the pen, not you.

21             Could you maybe just read into the record the numbers of the

22     people that you recognise, not their names.

23        A.   [In English] Okay.

24             [Interpretation] Number 1; number 2; number 6; number 8;

25     number 12; 16; 19.

Page 17248

 1        Q.   Okay.  And before we move to the second page, I just want to ask

 2     whether any of -- first of all, to the best of your knowledge, is this

 3     information true that they're originally from Croatia and were dismissed

 4     from their positions but then serving elsewhere still in -- in Slavonia

 5     and Baranja?

 6        A.   Concerning those I knew personally, I knew they were members of

 7     the service.  I knew they were all deployed, and I met them all there.

 8     In fact, I -- I didn't know them before that.

 9        Q.   Were any of them people that had requested employment first in

10     Serbia?

11        A.   No.  These are men who had never relocated from Slavonia.  I was

12     approached by people who hailed from other parts of Croatia who were

13     unable to stay in their native territory, and these are men whom I met

14     when I went to Slavonia.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And now can we have the second page, please.

17             And -- I think, in B/C/S -- yes.  Good.  That's right.  The third

18     in English; second in B/C/S.  Thank you.

19        Q.   And can you name in the first section?  Are there any more

20     people?

21        A.   The rest of the names, up to 24, I'm not familiar with.

22        Q.   And under Osijek?

23        A.   No one.

24        Q.   And Beli Manastir?

25        A.   No one.

Page 17249

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             Do you know any of these people to be operatives of the

 3     Serbian DB?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do you know any of them to be sources who provided information to

 6     the Serbian DB?

 7        A.   I don't know that they were associates or sources of the service.

 8     The service would keep that in strict secrecy.

 9        Q.   And the second man on the list, Dragan Lazic, was this the man

10     that you were advising and instructing on setting up police stations?

11        A.   At that time, he was appointed minister or deputy minister of the

12     interior of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and I worked with him, gave

13     him certain instructions, and I had quite a lot of contact with him.  He

14     also had a brother whose name I forget.  They are twins, and they look

15     pretty much the same.

16        Q.   Did he also become, at the time that you were in

17     Eastern Slavonia, the head of the Vukovar SUP?

18        A.   Yes.  At that time he was appointed to a very high post.  I

19     believe he was even deputy or assistant minister, in fact, of the

20     interior of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  And since it was a separate

21     entity, he was practically minister of the interior of that part of the

22     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

23        Q.   So, I presume, though, you're talking about a later period,

24     though, when the Republic of Serbian Krajina was established?  I had

25     first intended to ask you about September 1991 and what role he had then.

Page 17250

 1     I understand that to be a -- or, rather, October, the -- just limited to

 2     the police.  But was he already a minister in the government at that

 3     time?

 4        A.   I think he became a cabinet minister during my tenure there.  He

 5     was assistant minister officially but he was functionally minister for

 6     that part of the territory because the Knin part of the territory was

 7     separated from the rest, and he was practically minister for -- for that

 8     area.  And I met him only in mid-October, not immediately upon my

 9     arrival.  He was working as the leader of the SUP of Vukovar.

10        Q.   Okay.  And at what point, then, did he hold that position until

11     as leader of the SUP of Vukovar?  From mid-October until when?

12        A.   I really couldn't tell you with any certainty, and I wouldn't

13     like to guess.

14        Q.   Okay.  And this document that we have before us created by the

15     Serbian DB in Belgrade, were you aware that they were keeping track of

16     the police officers who were engaged in Slavonia and Baranja?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Do you agree that when the document says that these individuals

19     are "engaged in the defence of certain locations" this suggests a common

20     interest shared by the Serbian DB who authored the document and the Serbs

21     in the area as mentioned in the document?

22        A.   Well, I can't say whether the DB had a vested interest or not.

23     All I know is that most men from this list were employees of the public

24     security section before they left the service or were expelled from the

25     service.

Page 17251

 1        Q.   The public security section of the Croatian MUP; is that right?

 2     Or do you mean something else?

 3        A.   Yes, yes, that's what I mean.

 4        Q.   And I'm finished with this document.

 5             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Your Honours, it was provided by the

 6     Stanisic Defence.  We don't have any information on provenance.  We'd

 7     like it to be marked for identification until such time as it is

 8     received.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  I'm hesitating because it seems slightly

10     topsy-turvy to use a document suggesting that it's reliable, and then to

11     query its reliability at the end of using it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Friedman, it is uncommon to say that we first

13     want to know whether it's -- where it comes from.  That's usually the

14     language used if you oppose the admission of a document.

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:  As we have expressed earlier and I can give a

16     fuller position, but we do not want to tender private collection

17     documents without having information on provenance.  For now, the witness

18     is here, and I thought he could provide some information on the document.

19     So it would be worth getting that information at this time.  But we would

20     not want to tender it before we can have a better idea of its

21     authenticity.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, at the same time, of course, you went to the

23     content of it.  But let's consider what that situation is.  But before we

24     do that -- Witness, at the top of the document you see, you see under the

25     date "ZH."  Do you know what that stands for?

Page 17252

 1             You see it in the ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.

 3             Those are the initials of the person who drafted the document.

 4     Based on that, you can identify which employee wrote this.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you, by any chance, know anyone with the

 6     initials ZH working in the MUP?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the State Security Service,

 8     and I really don't know.  I can't think of anyone with the initials ZH,

 9     and I've never seen the initials on any other document before.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             The number of the document would be?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2439 will receive number P3080,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Sir, you were asked about whether you ever heard of Mr. Simatovic

18     being at a dinner or ceremony after the fall of Vukovar, and you

19     responded that you had not.  But you were not actually looking for

20     information, trying to gather information about Mr. Simatovic at any

21     point, were you?

22        A.   I said Mr. Simatovic did not attend a single dinner that I

23     attended.  I have also said I haven't heard of him attending any other

24     meeting that I didn't attend.  But it's true that I wasn't gathering any

25     information on Mr. Simatovic, and I didn't have the right to.

Page 17253

 1        Q.   And you were never -- you've not been employed at the Serbian DB

 2     or successor, BIA; is that correct?

 3        A.   Never.

 4        Q.   And to this day, you may not know that some of the people that

 5     you were working with were from the Serbian DB; is that right?

 6        A.   I don't rule out the possibility.  But I can't confirm it.

 7        Q.   Do you know that -- that Ilija Kojic worked for the Serbian DB?

 8        A.   Well, you must specify.  What do you mean by "worked for"?  Was

 9     an employee?  Was an agent?  Or was a source?

10        Q.   Our case and our evidence is that he was an employee.  Were you

11     aware of that?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you have other information, though, that suggests that he was

14     an agent or a source?

15        A.   I have information that he was a registered agent, but in view of

16     the fact that there was a war on -- so I don't have information that he

17     was a registered agent.  But in view of the fact that there was a war on,

18     he may have -- it could not be excluded the possibility that he may have

19     furnished the state security in the Republic of Serbia with certain

20     information.

21        Q.   Okay.  So you first said, "I have information that he was a

22     registered agent," or that how it's recorded.  But is your answer that

23     you don't know he was a registered agent but he may have given

24     information to the state security.

25             Is that how I understand your answer?

Page 17254

 1        A.   My answer is this:  I don't know that he was an active employee

 2     of the state security or that he was a registered agent of the

 3     State Security Service.  And I assume that he did provide the

 4     State Security Service with information.

 5        Q.   Why do you assume that?

 6        A.   Well, because that was a sort of principle.  Certain events of

 7     security interest for the Republic of Serbia, the information about those

 8     events -- those events, would also come from the war-affected areas.

 9        Q.   And Radoslav Kostic.  Did you know him?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Had you heard of him?

12        A.   I did hear of him.  Actually, at one point, when Radoslav Kostic

13     was killed, I thought that another Radoslav Kostic, aka Labrador, was

14     killed.  And it was only then that I realised that they were two

15     different people.  Before then, I wasn't aware of the fact that there

16     were two different Kostics.

17        Q.   Did you hear that Radoslav Kostic, even in 1991, was an employee

18     of the Serbian DB?

19        A.   No.  I have no knowledge whatsoever of his employment, including

20     whether he was working for the public security station.

21             What I did hear was that he was a policeman in one of the local

22     police stations.  That was the information I had at the time he was

23     killed.  At first, I was surprised to hear that he was a policeman in

24     view of his involvement in military activities.  But then I learned that

25     they were two different people.


Page 17255

 1        Q.   And lastly, we heard evidence in this trial that Dragan Lazic,

 2     this man that you were assisting in setting up the police stations,

 3     worked in the Serbian DB.

 4             So my question to you is whether he ever told you that.

 5        A.   No.

 6             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Can we go into private session, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17256











11 Pages 17256-17260 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17261

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             MS. FRIEDMAN:  And this is 65 ter 6228.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Dusan Momcilovic:  The Glina

14     public security station consists of the active complement, the reserve

15     complement and the civilian sector working on administrative affairs.

16     The active complement consists of former employees of this public

17     security station and new employees who have proved that they are

18     professionals in combat operations.  Since there is still a state of war

19     in the Glina municipality, we need such personnel for future operations

20     and, if necessary, to guard the border.  The reserve complement also

21     consists of the former reserve force and volunteers who have proved

22     themselves in combat together with the former reservists and found their

23     place and role in this public security station.

24              "As regards the reserve and active complements, right now, we

25     are short of materiel.  Not everyone has the same ... standard uniforms,


Page 17262

 1     adequate weapons, or motor pool.  As regards uniforms, we are getting

 2     help from Serbia for the time being.  Blue police uniforms and blue

 3     winter uniforms from the reserve ...

 4             "Reporter: ... tell us about the co-operation between the public

 5     security station and the Ministry of Interior of the Serbian Krajina.

 6             "Dusan Momcilovic:  The Glina public security station is part of

 7     the Knin Ministry of Interior, and we have receive all our tasks and

 8     requests from Knin.  We respond directly to the -- we answer directly to

 9     the Ministry of Interior in Knin.  We also co-operate very well with the

10     Municipal Assembly as the organ of authority that finances us, together

11     with the MUP ... at the same time, we carry out crime scene examinations

12     and other applications and requests that need to be processed through the

13     Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia.  Various kinds of

14     forensic analysis and other material aid, while professional literature

15     and the Law on Internal Affairs organs, that's at the level of the

16     Krajina ..."

17        Q.   In this interview, Mr. Momcilovic stated that the Glina public

18     security station carried out forensic analyses and other applications and

19     requests through the Serbian MUP.  It's quite clear that the police

20     stations in Eastern Slavonia received personnel from the Serbian MUP.

21     Aside from that, can you -- are you aware of any other instances where

22     they made additional requests and received additional assistance?

23        A.   Well, I hope that I understand the gist of your question, though

24     it didn't come clear in interpretation.

25             In order to have a fully functioning police apparatus, there

Page 17263

 1     needs to be an integrated system.  At the point in time where this system

 2     broke through in the Republic of Croatia, links were re-established with

 3     the MUP of Serbia.  For this reason, various forensic analyses such as

 4     drug analysis, et cetera, were being done in the Republic of Serbia

 5     because they could not be done in Croatia, whereas the RSK did not have

 6     forensic offices of its own.

 7             I did say earlier on in one of my answers that we did have these

 8     blue winter uniforms, which means that some of them were provided to this

 9     particular police station as well.

10             Aside from that, what else could there have been?  Well, perhaps

11     a vehicle would be set aside for the purposes of a police station.

12             As for the rest, I don't see what else the MUP of Serbia could

13     have done without going through the RSK MUP.

14        Q.   Now, I just want to quote to you a part of an interview that,

15     unfortunately, did not appear in this clip, but we will add it and it can

16     be verified.

17             And in this end part, Momcilovic says that:

18             "Since we are in a state of war, the Glina public security

19     station is ready to join the struggle against the enemy at any moment and

20     offer any kind of help necessary to all the organs of the Glina

21     municipality."

22             So my question to you is whether this willingness to join in on

23     the struggle and offer any assistance also reflects the attitude of the

24     police stations in Eastern Slavonia in 1991 and 1992?

25        A.   Yes.  The police force of Eastern Slavonia, as well as the police

Page 17264

 1     force in Knin, was ready and prepared to provide assistance to all the

 2     organs who needed it.

 3             Now, what their abilities were is a different matter, but

 4     whatever they had at their disposal they were prepared to place -- to --

 5     to -- to use, to help other organs that needed it in Krajina and

 6     Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   And I just have two more questions today.

 8             From the time that you arrived Eastern Slavonia until the time

 9     that you left, had the Serb-held territory expanded?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  Actually, that's my final question then for the day.

12             Thank you, Mr. Gagic.

13             MS. FRIEDMAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need tomorrow?

15             MS. FRIEDMAN:  I expect to use the first session.  I think no

16     more, but possibly, I would say, up to hour and a half.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would try to conclude in the first session.

18             Mr. Gagic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow,

19     Tuesday, the 14th of February, at a quarter past 2.00 in the same

20     Courtroom II.  And I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak nor

21     communicate in any other way, with whomever, about testimony, either

22     given, or still to be given.

23             We stand adjourned.

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of


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