1 Monday, 13 February 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-03-69-T, The Prosecutor versus
10 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Mr. Gagic, before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you're
13 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
14 your testimony. Is that clear to you?
15 WITNESS: GVOZDEN GAGIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you were about to start your
19 cross-examination. Are you ready?
20 MR. JORDASH: Yes. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gagic, you will now be cross-examined by
22 Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
23 Please proceed.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gagic.
1 I want to take you to 1991 and slightly before you went to
2 Eastern Slavonia.
3 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, P1050.
4 Q. If you'd have a look at this exert, I want you to read page 93 of
5 the English and 70 of the B/C/S.
6 Now, what you're going to see, Mr. Witness, is a diary by a woman
7 called Glisic, who was the secretary to minister of defence, Simovic, in
8 1991. Can I presume you know who Simovic is, or was?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The theme that I want to ask you about is the town of Apatin and
11 you've evidence about events in, I think, February of 1992, where Apatin
12 was subject to a terrorist attack. You following me so far?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what I want to ask you about is Apatin prior to that and an
15 attack on Apatin which took place around the time of this reference in
16 the diary to 12th of November, 1991.
17 Would you just have a look at the page and quickly glimpse
18 through it?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat, please.
20 MR. JORDASH:
21 Q. Could you repeat what you just said, Mr. Gagic, please.
22 A. You can go ahead with your question.
23 Q. Let just read on.
24 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to the next page, please.
25 Q. I just want you to read the whole of this particular entry with
1 reference to the title: "When the town of Apatin was left without
3 A. It's all right.
4 MR. JORDASH: And the next page, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is all right.
6 MR. JORDASH: And the next, until we get to page 246.
7 Q. And then I'll ask you some questions.
8 A. It's all right.
9 MR. JORDASH: And the next page, I think, and then we're done.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
11 MR. JORDASH:
12 Q. Now, obviously this describes a number of things but one of the
13 main themes is the vulnerability of Apatin, the border town, including
14 raids by Croatian forces and also bombardment of Apatin.
15 Were these events that were professionally of interest to you,
16 or, if not professionally of interest, did you learn about them through
17 the media or through other sources?
18 A. I knew of the serious and difficult situation in Apatin, both at
19 the time I was there and because of the mixed population living in the
20 area. There was also the potential risk of incursions by the Croatian
21 army into the territory of Serbia.
22 Q. And was this big news? Was this across the media in Serbia, the
23 idea that Serbia was going to be drawn into the war through attacks on
24 its territory?
25 A. Yes. The attack itself on Apatin confirmed these assumptions,
1 and these events at Apatin were breaking news and something that was
2 widely covered in the media; whereas, what we have read in this report
3 here was not the subject of media interest.
4 Q. Now if we go to page 245 of the B/C/S and page 95 of the English,
5 you can see Mr. Sokolovic, the minister of the interior of Serbia,
6 talking about a regulated issuances of arms to the populations of Sombor,
7 Odzaci and Apatin, but also complaining that such people like General
8 Pekic, were involved in illegal arming.
9 Do you know anything about Sokolovic's complaints in that regard?
10 A. Specifically about these conversations and complaints, no. But I
11 was aware of the fact that a certain amount of weapons were distributed
12 outside of the legal institutions to the local population who abused or
13 misused the weapons they received, either by reselling them or by opening
14 fire when it wasn't strictly necessary to do so.
15 Q. Were you aware of discussions within the Ministry of Interior
16 concerning how to deal with the protection of Apatin and the border
17 towns, with one option being the formation of an anti-terrorist unit?
18 A. I was not aware of these discussions or the idea to form an
19 anti-terrorist unit in the area.
20 I don't think it could have gone further than entertaining this
21 idea because there was an anti-terrorist unit in Novi Sad, which is not
22 very far from this area.
23 Q. Do you know, then, why Badza called upon members of the RSK MUP
24 to assist when Apatin was invaded by terrorists in February/March of
1 A. Apatin had not been taken by a group of terrorists in March of
2 1992. Rather, there was a terrorist group on the move in the area
3 between Sombor and Apatin.
4 Now, the reason why Radovan Stojicic, Badza, called in
5 representatives of the Krajina MUP and volunteers was that he refused to
6 receive a unit of ours, lest we weaken the protection of the border
7 areas, since there were partial combat activities still going on in
9 Now, the police in Serbia had already been preoccupied with
10 problems in Kosovo, so between 20 to 30 per cent of effective police
11 forces from Serbia were dispatched to Kosovo to maintain law and order
13 The third reason, in my view, was the fact that in order to
14 neutralise this terrorist group, they needed a group of individuals who
15 had combat experience.
16 Q. And the -- you've told us last week that the SAJ under Badza, did
17 engage in combat in Eastern Slavonia but was that, as far as you were
18 aware, the first time that they'd engaged in proper combat?
19 A. Yes. Admittedly, this was before my coming to Slavonia. The
20 anti-terrorist unit did take part in combat and had sustained casualties
21 among its ranks. So they did engage in proper combat and not just in
22 providing protection and security of persons and facilities which is what
23 they went on to do at a later date.
24 Q. So just to understand the timing, they'd engaged in proper combat
25 in late 1991 and some of their number had been injured during that
1 combat, in that period of time; is that right?
2 A. In mid-1991, they became involved in combat, so I got there in --
3 in late 1991, and by that time, they had already been deployed to the
4 Slavonia battle-field, and in the months of July and August, before
5 September of 1991, they had taken part in combat.
6 Q. And were injured in the same year? Or some of their number, I
7 should say.
8 A. Yes. Some of them were wounded in 1991. As far as I know,
9 during the later stay of that unit in the Slavonia battle-field, no one
10 came to be wounded. That's to say, after the month of September of 1991.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, just before you move from this document, let's
12 go to the page 246, the last page of this exert, and I want to ask you if
13 you know anything about General Simovic's comment there, when he notes
14 that the Ministry of Defence, or:
15 "We have been asked by the government of the
16 Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina to set up a training camp in
17 Prigravica, records need to be made."
18 Were you aware that the government of the Autonomous Region of
19 Krajina were looking to the Serbian Ministry of Defence to assist them
20 with training their combatants and the place where they sought to form a
21 training base was in Prigravica? Were you aware of that?
22 A. I was aware of that. Prigravica is in the territory of Serbia;
23 in other words, not in Slavonia or in the Republic of Croatia. It is
24 close to Apatin and to the brotherhood and unity bridge I testified about
25 earlier on.
1 I think that this initiative from the SAO Slavonia, Baranja,
2 Western Srem, or the SAO Krajina coincided with the setting up of a
3 training ground's centre in Erdut. By that time the idea had ripened and
4 requests were sent, and the top police and military leadership decided -
5 I don't know exactly when - that the training centre should be set up in
6 Erdut, rather than Prigravica, which lacked the necessary infrastructure
7 for such training grounds.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. JORDASH: May I tendered this as an exhibit, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objection.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 MR. JORDASH: Actually, it is already part of an exhibit. I beg
13 your pardon, sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, at least certain portions are in
15 evidence, including the ones you referred to.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH: I have some more of the same book to show the
18 witness, but I think I will wait until the break to save some time. And
19 I ask that the witness look at the pages over the break.
20 Can we go, please, to 1D5008. And it's a judgement from the
21 district court in Sombor. And what I'm interested in is the first eight
23 Q. And I want you to just go through that very quickly just to
24 confirm that this is the judgement which arose from the terrorist
25 attempted incursion into Apatin in February/March 1992. If you recognise
1 the facts, then please say so?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recognise the facts?
4 If we go to the next page, just so you're clear.
5 MR. JORDASH: And then if the Prosecution don't object, I would
6 just like to tender these first eight page, which summarises the
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some problems in just admitting,
10 or just tendering, the first eight pages if it is uploaded as one
12 MR. JORDASH: We'll upload it, the first eight pages, with
13 Your Honour's leave.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You will have to do that then separately.
15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
16 Q. Do you recognise these facts as reflecting the incident you've
17 spoken about, which led to Operation Amfibija?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. JORDASH: Then I'll apply to tender the first eight pages
20 in -- perhaps --
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: No objection, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And once they are uploaded, we will reserve a number
23 for them.
24 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
25 THE REGISTRAR: The reserve number for first eight pages of
1 1D5008 will be D695, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. Now, just moving you backwards a little bit to when you went to
5 Eastern Slavonia, you spoke last week about the tasks that you were
7 Am I correct that your tasks were wholly limited to crime
8 prevention or crime detection activities? You and your unit, I mean.
9 A. Precisely so. The unit focussed on prevention. And my
10 engagement outside of the unit was of a mixed nature, both prevention and
12 Q. Training of who? And for what?
13 A. Well, the training side of the story is my engagement in the
14 formation of the the Secretariat of Internal Affairs in Vukovar, based in
15 Dalj, inasmuch as I was making certain suggestions and giving advice
16 about admission of staff into that secretariat, the way to organise it,
17 and adjusting legislation to the newly arisen situation because the
18 territory of Slavonia and Baranja did not have an institutionalised legal
19 system or a legal framework, whereas, the laws of the Republic of Croatia
20 had ceased to apply with the establishment of Krajina, so it was
21 necessary to start applying the laws that were in force in Serbia. So I
22 had an instruction role in teaching them how to apply the legal
23 regulations from Serbia, and, in the beginning, how to draft
24 Official Notes and reports about incidents and, later on, we also worked
25 on regulations.
1 Q. That's a lot of description. But are we talking about police
2 work when you're talking about regulations, when you're talking about
3 Official Notes and reports about incidents, and so on?
4 Are we talking about police work? Crime prevention work?
5 A. Yes, yes. That was part of the police work. Police regulations,
6 criminal regulations, criminal and trial rules; whereas, the prevention
7 aspect in combatting crime was my presence in other police stations that
8 were then controlled by the authorities of the Republic of Serbian
9 Krajina, that is to say, western Baranja and Srem, and instructing staff,
10 because very few of them were trained policemen. Most of the former
11 trained policemen had left, and police stations at that time were staffed
12 by less than 50 per cent of the professional policemen. New admissions
13 were regular citizens who wanted to work in the police and met certain
14 criteria so they were employed, they were hired, without actual police
16 Q. I think what you said was that you went -- arrived there on the
17 29th of September of 1991. At this point, most of the combats had
18 finished; is that right?
19 A. No. The combat had just started then. The combat and the final
20 operations in Vukovar only started in end November that year.
21 Q. Okay. The police work that did you, was this the same for all
22 your colleagues who went with your unit, and also the unit that went to
23 Knin, as far as you're aware?
24 A. Regarding the unit that went to Knin, I don't know any details.
25 All I know is that that unit did not stay in the same composition as when
1 it left because many of members of that unit joined the police and army
2 units in that area that were more developed than in Slovenia. So the
3 unit did not remain integral. In fact, I think they ceased to exist a
4 month after they were set up.
5 As far as the involvement of my unit is concerned, only I was
6 actually involved doing this training and instruction; whereas, the rest
7 of the unit, all of them, only manned check-points on the bridge, apart
8 from the first ten days when we were busy organising our own
9 accommodation and doing some patrolling.
10 Q. Did -- did -- let me just move you forward very briefly to 1995.
11 Did you hear about Serbian MUP police officers, about 400, being
12 sent from Serbia and Kosovo to Banja Luka to conduct similar crime
13 prevention activities?
14 A. I know about MUP units sent outside the territory of Serbia. The
15 same happened in the territory of Slavonia, only a bit later, after the
16 liberation of Vukovar, after the -- the end of fighting in Vukovar.
17 Some more units were sent from the MUP of Serbia to re-establish
18 law and order, and I think two units were sent to the area of Slavonia
19 towards Sid and Tovarnik. Not the upper part, closer to Erdut and Dalj.
20 And I know about the sending of units to Banja Luka.
21 Q. And that was under the authority of Badza. Am I right about
22 this: About 400 men were sent to try and restore some sort of law and
23 order in the towns some distance from the front lines?
24 Does that accord with what you know?
25 A. Yes. The units were sent on Badza's orders.
1 Q. Just so that we're clear, I just want to make it clear to the
3 You haven't spoken to the Stanisic Defence team before coming to
4 court, have you? We haven't contacted you; is that correct?
5 A. It's correct.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, let's return to 1991.
7 You testified about checking traffic across the brotherhood and
8 unity bridge. Again, you were checking for illegal possession of arms in
9 the main; is that right?
10 A. I have to clarify that a bit.
11 A two-prong check was done on that bridge. One check was done by
12 my unit, which, in terms of establishment, belonged to military police;
13 but in addition to us, there was a unit of military police made up of
14 professional troops who checked military vehicles; whereas, my unit
15 checked civilian vehicles, in order to avoid bottle-necks and jams on the
17 In addition to preventing the traffic of arms and spirits across
18 the bridge, because alcohol was banned, we also looked for some items
19 that were in shortage to prevent smuggling, and we were trying to prevent
20 the export of property from Slavonia and Baranja as a form of combat
21 against looting.
22 Q. Thank you. Just let me return - sorry - briefly to the issue of
23 the 400 police officers in Banja Luka.
24 You said that the units were sent on Badza's orders, and I just
25 want to clarify who told you that and how you came by that knowledge.
1 A. I was present when the unit was leaving.
2 Q. Where was that; and when was that?
3 A. I was present in Belgrade when the unit was departing from a
4 police training ground called the Zvezdara woods in Belgrade, and I knew
5 many people from the unit. Some of them from before; some from the days
6 of war; and I had just come to say good-bye.
7 Q. And who else was present from the Serbian MUP? Was --
8 A. On behalf of the Serbian MUP, Obrad Stevanovic was seeing the
9 unit off. And there were other higher- and lower-ranking officials of
10 the MUP. Certainly around 50.
11 Q. And was that meeting a briefing of sorts, where the objectives
12 and purposes of the mission were laid out clearly for you to hear?
13 A. No, that meeting was not a briefing. There were too many people
14 for a briefing. Somebody made a short farewell speech, wishing them to
15 return alive and in good health and to be successful in the tasks they
16 were given. It was just a short speech.
17 Q. And why were you present?
18 A. I've already said. There were no less than 20 of my friends from
19 the service within the units that were departing. I had come privately
20 without an invitation, without being part of the organisation, just to
21 see them off. It's a kind of tradition where I come from.
22 Q. And before I move on, I just want to understand as clearly as
23 possible where your understanding came -- where your understanding came
24 from in relation to what their tasks were going to be.
25 Was it from that meeting or prior to that meeting or -- or where
1 did you learn that their job was to be normal police crime prevention
3 A. Well, I learnt earlier that the unit would be departing, and I
4 had even expressed my desire to go with them. However, my bosses did not
5 allow me to go because the incidents of violent crimes in Belgrade was
6 high, and this was complex work, and my superiors thought that I would be
7 more useful dealing with this job in Belgrade than if I left with the
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. JORDASH: Could we have -- let's move to a different subject.
11 1D02568, please.
12 Q. I want to deal with the subject of General Boro Ivanovic, who you
13 mentioned you had seen him coming to Erdut on several occasions; is that
15 MR. JORDASH: That's, Your Honours, page 17141.
16 Q. Mr. Gagic, could I just stop you from reading for a moment?
17 Were you aware that Ivanovic was tried in a military court for a
18 number of disciplinary offences, amongst them illegally giving arms to
19 the RSK; and, secondly, collaborating and co-operating and giving weapons
20 to Arkan and the Tigers?
21 A. I know that there were some trials, but much later, after 1995.
22 However, at the moment when I met General Ivanovic, I did not know that
23 he was tried by a civilian or military court.
24 Q. Thank you. Have a look at the document very quickly. It's a
25 1st Army intelligence document sent to the chief of the General Staff of
1 the VJ, 22nd of September, 1994, and contains a number of allegations
2 against Ivanovic, along the lines as I described.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. And if we go to page 3 of the document, and 2 of B/C/S, please,
5 sorry. Three of the English and 2 of the B/C/S. You'll see a record or
6 a note there about collaboration between the military organ and the MUP,
7 establishing Ivanovic's registration of certain cars, and his association
8 with, as quoted there, "persons prone to criminal activity, particularly
9 Zeljko Raznjatovic."
10 And you'll see there at the paragraph beginning with, "during
11 1993 ...," an allegation that Ivanovic is effectively using military
12 registration plates to provide Arkan with the means of crossing border
14 Is something that you learnt about at the time or learnt about it
15 afterwards, Arkan using registration plates provided to him by Ivanovic?
16 A. I didn't know that then, and I actually see this document for the
17 first time. I don't know how true it is because the relationship between
18 Arkan and the people from the MUP was much closer. So Arkan did not need
19 registration plates from Ivanovic, unless they were military registration
20 plates. And there is no reason why a general of the army would be
21 providing licence numbers to Arkan.
22 Q. But you can confirm - am I correct - that Ivanovic was
23 collaborating with Arkan?
24 A. I would rather say that Arkan was collaborating with Ivanovic
25 because Ivanovic was the more important personality, at least at the time
1 when I was there. There was co-operation between the two. It was
2 visible. I, myself, saw them together at least five times. I know that
3 they even planned some activities in that area together. And I know that
4 they co-operated closely later and were involved in some criminal
5 dealings, like the cutting of a forest, et cetera.
6 Q. So Ivanovic and Arkan were involved in smuggling? Is that what
7 you're trying to convey to the Court? And, in particular, the smuggling
8 of the wood from a forest that they cut down?
9 A. You could put it that way. I don't know if "smuggling" is the
10 right word, but they cut the wood illegally and sold it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we find out what the source of knowledge of
12 the witness is in this respect.
13 How did you learn this?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I came back, I left behind
15 many people with whom I remained in touch, and from talking to those
16 people who had remained in Slavonia, I learned that the wood was being
17 cut and sold without any official institution standing behind it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you may proceed.
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. I don't know if we've covered this, but I want to be clear.
21 Ivanovic subordinated Arkan to -- to him to conduct various
22 combat operations in 1991; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did that continue into 1992?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I do have a statement from Ivanovic --
2 not a statement that we took. It's a potential exhibit. But if the
3 Prosecution don't dispute this subordination, as the witness has just
4 testified, then I don't need to put the statement to him because in the
5 statement Ivanovic admits to this.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Under what Rule would you put it in, Mr. --
7 MR. JORDASH: Well, I would ask the witness about the facts in
8 this statement and I would ask it to be admitted as an exhibit pursuant
9 to 89(C).
10 JUDGE ORIE: But the statement was taken for the purposes of the
11 ICTY proceedings, you said? Or not.
12 MR. JORDASH: No, it was taken in relation to these military
13 disciplinary proceedings.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Let's first ask Ms. Friedman. Is there any dispute about
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: I don't think we have enough details about the
18 subordination on the basis of this witness's knowledge. I can't say at
19 this time that we don't dispute it.
20 As for the statement, the Prosecution --
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one thing.
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for interrupting.
24 You say: I don't think we have enough details for the
25 subordination on the basis of this witness's knowledge.
1 Now, what I understand is that Mr. Jordash wants to ask you
2 whether there was any dispute about a matter even for the purpose of not
3 bothering this witness with it. So your answer that, On the basis of the
4 statement of the witness, we're unable to say whether it is in dispute,
5 that seems to be a bit a circle reasoning.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: I take your point, Your Honour.
7 The issue of Arkan's subordination to the military is definitely
8 a key issue in this case.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is. And is it in dispute?
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. JORDASH: Then --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash --
14 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... more documents, if I
16 Coudl I, fist of all, ask for this to be tendered as an exhibit.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: We do have any information on the provenance of
18 this document.
19 MR. JORDASH: Can it can be MFI'd until we provide the
20 information, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, this document to be MFI'd will
22 receive the number?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2568 will be Exhibit D696,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification. Please proceed.
1 MR. JORDASH: Can we have on the screen, please, 1D02510, please.
2 Sorry, 1D2570.
3 Q. And what should be coming up, Mr. Witness, that you, I hope, will
4 be able to help us with is more information, a report on bringing
5 Major Ivanovic before the military disciplinary court, dated the
6 6th of August -- sorry, the 6th of October, 1994.
7 And just for your information, because we won't have time to read
8 through everything, but this is a fairly comprehensive report, or
9 purports to be, at least, on the various disciplinary offences alleged
10 against Major-General Ivanovic. And it -- and it deals with his removal
11 from duty while he is being investigated.
12 And if we go to page 4. No, let's stay -- sorry. Let's go back
13 to page 2. And we see there an allegation at number 1, alleging that as
14 the Chief of Staff and commander of the Novi Sad Corps in the period from
15 the 6th of January, 1992, to 2nd of August, 1994, he:
16 "Abused his official position and exceeded the bounds of his
17 official authority by acting in contravention to orders of the president
18 of the FRY and the General Staff of the VJ Chief of Staff and the orders
19 of the commander of the 1st Army forbidding the issuance of equipment and
20 materiel for use and utilisation outside of the units and institutions of
21 the Army of Yugoslavia," and so on?
22 And if we go over the page, we'll see the volume which is alleged
23 2.337 -- no I think that's 2 ... 2.337.179 pieces of various kinds of
24 ammunition and weapons and at least 205.725 litres of fuel.
25 Were you aware of these allegations against Ivanovic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you aware that he gave Arkan two tanks in 1991?
3 A. I did see the tanks, but I didn't know how the Arkan's Tigers had
4 come by them. I didn't know if it was the result of war assets having
5 been redistributed or some sort of gift, though the latter was highly
7 Q. Were you aware, as is alleged in this document, that it was
8 recommended that Ivanovic should be pensioned off, lose his job, as a
9 result of his conduct?
10 A. The facts related here clearly indicate that General Ivanovic
11 could clearly have been not just pensioned off but even have had his
12 employment terminated because these amounted to serious practices of
13 abuse of official position.
14 Probably in view of his many years of service in the army, it was
15 concluded that he should be pensioned off and then prosecuted as a
16 retired officer.
17 Q. May I tender this --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, could we try to clearly found out what
19 the witness knows and what kind of conclusions he draws from documents,
20 Probably this is the case, and ...
21 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
22 Q. Are you commenting on the seriousness of the allegations as laid
23 out in the document; or are you commenting on facts you know from outside
24 of this document concerning Ivanovic?
25 A. Since I have never seen this document before, I could not have
1 based my testimony on this document; rather, on certain facts that I know
2 from before. And my comment is that this amount of 2 million-odd pieces
3 of weapons is exaggerated.
4 As far as fuel is concerned, I think that it had to do with
5 excessive consumption, which was admittedly still within bounds, and
6 probably the army had entrusted the amount of fuel to third parties in
7 the field without going back and checking up on what they were doing,
8 without putting in records.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gagic, do you have any knowledge whether
10 Ivanovic was ever prosecuted for these facts?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that criminal proceedings
12 were instituted against General Ivanovic post-1995. He had not been
13 prosecuted earlier on or during the period I was in contact with him.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And what, then, did these criminal proceedings
15 result in?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the outcome of
17 the proceeding. I don't think, though, that General Ivanovic was
18 convicted. I'm not sure.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Was he acquitted? I mean, did he have to appear
20 before a court?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the details
22 concerning his trial because he was tried before a military court, and
23 they do not allow to have a public gallery that would follow the
24 proceedings before that court.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Was it a military disciplinary court, or was it a
1 military court which would impose sanctions as if it were a normal
2 criminal case?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, it was
4 a military court, not a military disciplinary court. Rather, a military
5 criminal court, which would have imposed the same sentences civil courts
6 would impose in keeping with the legislation in force.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You say you think he was not convicted. Was he
8 then -- what -- what happened if he was not convicted when he had
9 appeared before a court?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know the facts. I
11 can only guess. As I've said, these court proceedings were conducted
12 behind closed doors, and I was never taking much interest in that. I had
13 never been a friend of General Ivanovic's to have any personal interest
14 in that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So it is as well possible that he was acquitted or
16 at least that he was not found guilty?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not rule out the possibility
18 that he may have been found guilty but imposed a rather lenient sentence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You just don't know; is that ...
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour. May I tendered this as an
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN: We would await information on provenance for the
2 MR. JORDASH: MFI, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be MFI'd. Madam Registrar, the
4 number would be?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2570 will receive number D697,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
8 Mr. Jordash, it comes as a bit of a surprise that you couldn't
9 even tell us where such a document which you apparently used with the
10 witness comes from.
11 MR. JORDASH: Just could I just have a moment, please?
12 Can we have a few moments? We will be able to find out, I think.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you. Could we have 1D02235, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, in order to avoid that everything
16 remains unclear on the transcript, I asked, or, I said that I was a bit
17 surprised that you had no knowledge about the provenance and then you
18 said you asked whether you could have a few moments so as to be able to
19 find out.
20 I do not know whether it was perhaps overlapping speakers which
21 might cause some problems at a later stage to finally make the
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. JORDASH: Could I have just a minute to consult, please.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. JORDASH: Mr. Stanisic received the documents from --
2 directly from Zoran Lilic, who obtained them, in some way, from the
3 military security.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: We would -- we have tendered official
6 documentation when we have received documents from official authorities,
7 so we would prefer to that that -- I can -- yeah, we would like to have
9 JUDGE ORIE: Can you verify whether -- you said you have
10 documents as well.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: No. I'm sorry, Your Honour. The Prosecution --
12 our practice is when we tender documents to provide the official
13 correspondence and we do think that it's important to maintain that
14 level ...
15 MR. JORDASH: Well, there isn't any official correspondence
16 because they were handed directly from Lilic to Mr. Stanisic. That's the
17 route by which they came here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, might be slightly different to be in
19 the OTP or to be an accused to receive some documents from another
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. But it is somewhat problematic for us to
22 accept the word of the accused about provenance. This could lead to
23 problems down the road. I can -- we will have to consider our position
24 on this further, but for now we would like it to remain MFI'd.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It remains MFI'd for the time being.
1 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
2 MR. JORDASH: Certainly. And I think the Prosecution could check
3 with Mr. Lilic too. He's one of theirs, I think.
4 Q. Let me -- I don't want to take you through this whole statement,
5 Mr. Gagic, because it is quite detailed and contains Ivanovic's response
6 to the allegations. But I do want to take you to page 12 of the English
7 and 7 of the B/C/S.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Any date for the document, Mr. Jordash?
9 MR. JORDASH: No. I -- perhaps we can go to the last page which
10 contains the --
11 JUDGE ORIE: It says at least it was quarter past 5.00 in the
12 afternoon. That is the beginning.
13 MR. JORDASH: We'll try and find a date. We can probably time it
14 with other documents, though, but we'll try and find a date.
15 Q. Let go back, then, to page 12 of the English and 7 of the B/C/S.
16 And we'll find out what Mr. Ivanovic purports to say about his
17 relationship with Arkan:
18 "Asked to explain his acquaintance and relations to
19 Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, he replied, 'I met Zeljko Raznjatovic,
20 Arkan, in the Slavonia theatre in 1991, but I don't remember exactly when
21 or where. In the course of combat operations, he was assigned to me
22 several times to carry out combat assignments with his men. He carried
23 out combat assignments and nothing else. I am not beholden to him in any
24 way, nor is he to me, and we do talk on the phone or call on each other.
25 And if we run into each other, we exchange greetings because we have
1 fought together in the war, and I am making no bones about that. I have
2 no other relationship with him. When I was Chief of Staff, he used to
3 come and to see General Biorcevic at the command post on board the Kozara
4 vessel, where we also used to meet.'"
5 From what you've told us, is this correct? From what you've told
6 us, Ivanovic is not quite being as candid about his relationships with
7 Arkan as he would have wanted the disciplinary proceedings to believe.
8 Do you accept that? Do you see my point? Sorry.
9 A. Absolutely. Obviously, according to this, General Ivanovic would
10 like to make his war contacts with Arkan public, whilst denying any other
11 contacts that they may have had outside of performing combat assignments.
12 He is obviously trying to suppress any other contacts he may have
13 had with Arkan.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the date seems to be the
15 2nd of August, 1994, if I look at page 2, but ... of the interview.
16 MR. JORDASH: Yes. Yes. Sorry, I missed that.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. JORDASH: May I tender this as an exhibit, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: We have a few issues with this document. There
21 is, of course, the provenance issue, but also anything, any statement of
22 a third party admitted under 89(C) should be subject to scrutiny. We
23 have always presented arguments as to why a particular statement is
24 reliable and why it is admissible. In this case, this is a
25 self-interested statement of somebody being investigated. Also the
1 witness did not appear to have much knowledge about anything in the
3 So we would have to consider it further, but we do think that the
4 Defence would have to meet the threshold of 89(C).
5 JUDGE ORIE: Provenance, Mr. Jordash, to start with.
6 MR. JORDASH: That was the Lilic issue.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Lilic.
8 MR. JORDASH: And we agree with the Prosecution. It's not a
9 reliable statement. It's a statement which we accept Ivanovic did not
10 tell the truth. What it does do is say --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, if I understood the
12 position of the Prosecution well is reliability, is whether it is or is
13 not that it's unable to assess the reliability, and not that the
14 Prosecution agrees with you, that doubts as to the reliability of the
15 statement brings you together.
16 MR. JORDASH: Oh, I thought we agreed about something.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, did I understand your position well?
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
19 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I don't understand then the position. If
20 the Prosecution suggests that the statement isn't reliable or the
21 contents of the -- that it isn't a genuine statement from Ivanovic. Is
22 that the position or --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that not having the details that the
24 Prosecution would need a further, perhaps, verification of -- of whether
25 or not this document can be considered to be an authentic, whether the
1 content of this statement reflects the truth, yes or not, and that you
2 are unable to do so at this moment.
3 Is that correctly understood?
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. And it depends very much on the
5 circumstances of each case, but in this -- for the reliability of a
6 statement we need to consider the way it is taken and other
7 corroboration. Whether it can be -- whether it is the most appropriate
8 way to put the evidence on the record.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I suggest that we give some time to the
10 Prosecution to look at that and have it MFI'd.
11 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. I would also add to that the
12 Prosecution could shortcut all of this by deciding what is a very narrow
13 point, whether they accept Ivanovic was -- did subordinate Arkan to him
14 on several occasions and did have a -- a relationship which also went
15 beyond -- this is a very -- an issue that the Prosecution ought to have a
16 position on.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman --
18 I think that Ms. Friedman explained that this is not a matter on
19 which she can agree at this moment, just as simple as that. And I'm
20 getting more and more confused because you said it wasn't a reliable
21 document; wherein -- whereas in this document, Mr. Ivanovic says that he
22 assigned combat tasks to Arkan which ...
23 MR. JORDASH: Well, it is our position that Arkan was in the main
24 subordinated to Ivanovic and Biorcevic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 MR. JORDASH: And [overlapping speakers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: So it's reliable in that respect --
3 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, you told me that you agree with Ms. Friedman
5 that it's not a reliable statement. But now I do understand that you
6 consider it, at least in this respect, reliable.
7 MR. JORDASH: In that respect, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm just trying to understand your positions
9 which are perhaps a bit more complex than reliable or not reliable.
10 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2235 will receive number D698,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
14 MR. JORDASH: May we take a break Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are late already, yes.
16 MR. JORDASH: In that break, may I give -- I will have the
17 witness look at a section of Exhibit P1050, to save time after the break.
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please be so kind to read during
20 the break the document that will be given to you.
21 We will take a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past
23 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
1 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Gagic, I just want to return to the subject of Ivanovic
3 allegedly providing military registration plates, because I think that
4 there might have been some misunderstanding on your part.
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, line -- sorry. Page 15.
6 Q. I showed you the document which is now D696 MFI, and I asked you
7 the question:
8 "And you'll see there at the paragraph beginning with the,
9 'during 1993 ...,' an allegation that Ivanovic is effectively using
10 military registration plates to provide Arkan with the means of crossing
11 border crossings.
12 "Is that something that you learnt about at the time or learnt
13 about it afterwards, Arkan using registration plates ..." --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to the
16 interprets but it is very important. My colleague, Mr. Jordash, put the
17 question very precisely, identifying the kind of plates that were
18 provided, and in the B/C/S interpretation this was not specified.
19 I apologise to everyone, but this is very important.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you read the question again. I do not know
21 exactly what the reason is, why you expect there to be a confusion, but
22 let's just -- if you slowly read it again, Mr. Jordash.
23 MR. JORDASH: Could I -- perhaps I could summarise it what I
24 think is the confusion and ask the witness to deal with it in a more --
25 JUDGE ORIE: When I heard the answer of the witness earlier, I
1 wondered whether he had any factual knowledge, that is, as a matter of
2 fact, because he started explaining the why and the why not. That's at
3 least what I remember. I would have to re-read that. And we should
4 carefully find out what the witness knows about it or whether he finds it
5 logical or illogical or ...
6 MR. JORDASH: The -- what I'd like to do is ask him about -- if
7 there was a confusion in his mind and then I'd like to take him to the
8 document again and ask him some questions about the source of the
10 JUDGE ORIE: If we start by just reading again to him the
11 question and the answer and then ask him whether this is the answer he
12 intended to give, and then we'll find out.
13 MR. JORDASH: Okay.
14 Q. Mr. Gagic, I want to try to understand whether we've understood
15 each other.
16 The question I asked you was based on:
17 "... an allegation that Ivanovic is effectively using military
18 registration explanation plates to provide Arkan with the means of
19 crossing border crossing.
20 "Is that something that you learnt about at the time or learnt
21 about it afterwards, Arkan using registration plates provided to him by
23 And you answered:
24 "I didn't know about that then, and I actually see this document
25 for the first time. I don't know how true it is because the relationship
1 between Arkan and the people from the MUP was much closer. So Arkan did
2 not need registration plates from Ivanovic unless they were military
3 registration plates, and there is no reason why a general of the army
4 would be providing licence numbers to Arkan."
5 Now --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, if you first ask the witness whether --
7 what was read to him reflects his answer. That seems to be the first
8 relevant question.
9 MR. JORDASH:
10 Q. Did you follow that, Mr. Witness? Was that --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whether what was read whether that
12 reflects the answer you gave?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next question, the first one, at least,
15 would be: What personal knowledge do you have about military
16 registration plates provided by Ivanovic to Arkan?
17 Do you know anything about that, whether that happened or ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that Arkan used
19 vehicles with military registration plates, he drove a car with civilian
20 licence plates, or without any licence plates.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we then have to understand your answer
22 that, not knowing about what happened as far as licence plates are
23 concerned, that you told us whether you considered it to be logical or
24 illogical, that he would have been provided by Ivanovic with military
25 registration plates?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems illogical to me that Arkan
2 would have used military licence plates. It seems -- it makes more sense
3 to me that would have used civilian ones.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that. That's what I -- that's
5 how I understood your answer, that you wanted to explain to us how
6 logical, or, as a matter of fact, how illogical it was that it would have
7 happened as stated in that allegation.
8 Is that what you intended to bring to our attention?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, whatever further questions you have --
11 I had some concerns about factual knowledge and -- or, conclusions on
13 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But you shouldn't understand this as to be
15 exhaustive. If you have anything else on your mind, please don't
16 hesitate to ask the witness.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
18 Q. The document where this allegation was made was a document
19 authored by somebody called Commander Colonel-General Jevrem Cokic. Did
20 you, or do you know that gentleman?
21 A. I know nothing about that general.
22 Q. And you mentioned Kostic --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it would be
25 fair for me to help my colleague, Mr. Jordash.
1 First of all, we don't have the right page. The name is on a
2 different page. And it was pronounced as Cokic, although it's
3 Jeverem Sokic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is -- now, I take it that perhaps the
5 interpreters have made Mr. Kokic Mr. Cokic, because I take it that that
6 is how it is supposed to be pronounced. There was some question about
7 whether you have been provided with the right name. I think you were.
8 But does the name of Colonel-General Jevrem Cokic say anything to you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed --
11 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Jordash.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. Kosutic means something to you, though; is that right? Kosutic.
15 A. Kosutic was not a general at the time, as far as I know. I know
16 he was a colonel.
17 Q. I'm not suggesting he was. But was he part of the military
18 security or intelligence organ?
19 A. Yes, he was an officer of the military security.
20 Q. And would he have known about Ivanovic's collaboration with
22 A. He was aware of that co-operation because he was present there -
23 at least when I was - in the Slavonia theatre of war. Colonel Kosutic
24 was there at the same time.
25 Q. And despite being aware of that collaboration, are you able to --
1 do you know anything about whether he reported that to his senior
2 officers or to the unit that he was part of?
3 A. I don't know whether he reported it or not, but I don't think so.
4 Q. He certainly didn't express or indicated to you or anyone else
5 that he regarded that as a problem, did he, as far as you're aware?
6 A. Yes, you're right, because I'm speaking about the early days,
7 1991, 1992, when the relations were more of a military and professional
8 nature. These events dealt with in the documents you've shown me relate
9 to 1993, 1994, 1995, so what Kosutic later reported, I don't know. But,
10 at the time, when I was there, he did not ask for any consultation with
11 me, nor am I aware that he had sent any report about irregularities in
12 the conduct of Arkan or General Ivanovic.
13 Q. In relation to what you know about military code at the time,
14 would you have expected him to report that; and, if so, do you know why
15 he didn't?
16 A. As I said, in the period when I was there, there were no such
17 irregularities, at least they were not pronounced. They began later. As
18 to whether Kosutic sent reports about it later, I really don't know.
19 Q. Fair enough.
20 Now, I just want to deal with one more subject. The trial of the
21 Skorpions, or members of the Skorpions for the murders at Trnovo, what
22 was your involvement with that prosecution?
23 A. I was involved in those criminal proceedings in my role as chief
24 of service for the detection of war crimes in the MUP of Serbia from 2004
25 until 2006, and one of the cases that crossed my desk were the Skorpions.
1 Q. It crossed your desk in what sense? Can you be concrete as to
2 what you did in relation to that prosecution.
3 A. That is a longer story. I will try to put it briefly.
4 At the request of the War Crimes Prosecutor, I came to his office
5 and I was told that a videotape would be viewed. I put certain
6 conditions before the playing of that tape because there were some people
7 present there who were not from the police or from the office of the
9 Q. I'm running out of time and I want to be as specific as can I be.
10 Did you have a part to play in the investigation?
11 A. My job, after receiving that videotape, was to arrest the men
12 identified from the videotape and bring them before an investigative
13 judge, and that's what I did, with my team.
14 Q. And were you there present during the investigation, or at least
15 part of the investigation by the investigative judge?
16 A. No. Apart from the interview conducted on the premises of the
17 police, which was my right and my duty, I was not involved in the
18 pre-indictment proceedings, I did not attend the interrogation by the
19 prosecutor, or by the investigating judge.
20 Q. So you -- you interviewed the various suspects as part of your
21 police duties; correct?
22 A. Yes. And I did not conduct all the interviews myself because
23 there were many suspects, and the time for their bringing into custody
24 was short so that my various team members conducted some of the
1 Q. Can you remember the interviews that you did conduct, the names
2 of the suspects?
3 A. I should like to look at the document that I have in my bag here,
4 if possible. But, if not, I spoke to the two Medic brothers.
5 Q. Why would you want to look at the document in your bag? What is
6 it and how would it help you?
7 A. The document lists all the men arrested in that operation, and I
8 would not like to make a mistake about some names or some other details
9 concerning them.
10 Q. Do you think you interviewed more than the two Medic brothers?
11 Or was -- or were you only involved in those two interviews?
12 A. I spoke only to the two of them, and very briefly.
13 My operative workers spoke to them in greater detail. My job was
14 to co-ordinate the whole activity so I couldn't put aside five or six
15 hours to speak to one person alone. My job was to co-ordinate, to work
16 out the schedule for bringing them before the judge, so I didn't speak to
17 any of them in detail.
18 Q. And were you part of a team, then, who gathered the results of
19 the interviews, i.e., that you shared the information that had been
20 gathered from the interviews to work out what to do next in the
22 A. We did not conduct detailed interviews. We relied on the story
23 told us by the perpetrators, because the case was developed by the
24 prosecution who had already collected some evidence already. And we were
25 only asked to bring those persons into custody. The prosecutor had all
1 the documentation for the investigating judge ready. So we just
2 conducted a short interview to confirm their identity and to link them to
3 the events.
4 Q. All right. And am I correct from your interviews with the Medic
5 brothers and the information you gathered during that investigation, none
6 of the suspects were alleging that the Skorpions were under the command
7 of the Serbian DB.
8 Am I right?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: I think the witness has already indicated that he
11 wouldn't be in a position to answer. And I think Mr. Jordash is trying
12 to get around that. Having not asked about the details.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Not having asked doesn't exclude for the possibility
14 that someone spontaneous makes an observation. That's a ...
15 The witness may answer the question.
16 MR. JORDASH:
17 Q. Am I correct? None of the suspects, according to the evidence
18 you received during the interviews of the two Medic brothers or
19 information you gathered as part of the investigation, were alleging that
20 the Skorpions were under the command of the Serbian DB at the time of the
21 offence; is that correct?
22 A. None of the suspects alleged they were members of the
23 State Security Service of the Republic of Serbia.
24 Q. In fact, I'll take it one step further.
25 None of them were saying that they were even under the Serbian
1 MUP, were they?
2 A. Yes, but I knew those facts already.
3 Q. What do you mean?
4 A. Well, in the period from receiving the documentation based on
5 which we were to start the operation for their arrest, until that moment,
6 ten days had elapsed, and I used that time to study the Skorpion unit.
7 And, in that time, I already established they had no connection with any
8 establishment in Serbia, either the Ministry of Interior or the
9 State Security Service.
10 Q. Thank you for the answer.
11 MR. JORDASH: May we have on the screen 1D01321.
12 Q. Were you engaged with this investigation until the final
13 judgement of the trial of the Skorpions?
14 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
15 Q. Were you engaged with this investigation until the final
16 judgement delivered by the War Crimes Court? The judgement, as you can
17 see on the screen, which was delivered on the 10th of April, 2007.
18 A. Well, I was involved. But apart from the initial activities to
19 arrest them, I was engaged only once later in arresting one person that I
20 believe was not part of the first batch of arrests, and collecting some
21 additional information about that person, there were no more requests for
22 me. So my involvement ended when I arrested them and brought them before
23 the investigating judge.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. JORDASH: Can we go to page 55, please, of the English and 58
1 of the B/C/S.
2 Q. I want to ask you about various parts of the judgement and see if
3 it accords with the information you gathered during the investigation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the witness has told us that he was not
5 involved in the -- apart from studying that. So let's be careful there.
6 And let's first ask him whether he knows anything about A, B, or C, and
7 then, if he know, then we can compare that with the judgement.
8 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be the appropriate way of --
10 MR. JORDASH: I'll certainly do that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- dealing with the matter.
12 MR. JORDASH:
13 Q. Let me see if you can agree or --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness starts reading already parts of ...
15 Could you please stop reading and first focus on Mr. Jordash.
16 MR. JORDASH:
17 Q. Was -- is this the information that you gathered during the
18 investigation; that, firstly, that the Skorpions were paid by the company
19 NIK? They were employees of that company.
20 A. Yes. They were on the payroll of that company.
21 Q. And from what the suspects were saying at that time, no one else
22 paid them. It was -- their income came from the Krajina Oil Company;
24 A. Yes. And their income was quite sufficient, even higher than the
25 income of most people who worked in that area at the time.
1 Q. And the suspects -- sorry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I'm just trying to find out -- could
3 you tell us about -- you say they were on the payroll. At what point in
4 time did you investigate that? And how did you investigate that? If you
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I knew that they were
7 established as a service for providing security to the oil company of
8 Krajina. I knew that because I had occasion to see them even when I was
9 working in the Krajina.
10 And then, later, after they were arrested and I spoke to them,
11 they claimed they were paid until enter 2005 only as security men working
12 for that oil company of Krajina. And later on, they received some part
13 of their income through the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that
15 JUDGE ORIE: Was that part of the interview you had with the two
16 brothers, that they told you this? Was that part of what was asked? And
17 was that what they stated to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were asked, and I
19 insisted on that question about all the sources of their income. And
20 they told me, Our salaries at the time were quite sufficient, even much
21 higher than the average so we didn't need any additional income. And
22 they received their equipment from the government of the RSK; that is,
23 the -- the fund -- the government fund of the RSK.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was an Official Note made of that interview
25 with the two brothers?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A joint report was made. And there
2 were no Official Notes resulting from the two separate interviews.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And this was part of the interview before --
4 after their arrest but before they were brought before the investigating
5 judge. Is that correctly understood?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 And may I then take it that you heard that from the two brothers
9 but that your colleagues may have heard it from the other accused but not
10 you, yourself?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard it myself, as did other
12 colleagues. Because they were asking almost identical questions.
13 So this wasn't in dispute in any way.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. But you heard it from those persons you had
15 interviewed; and you did not directly hear it from others, which you did
16 not interview?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Did you hear from the Medic brothers that they'd been -- who sent
21 them to Trnovo?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what did they say?
24 A. That they had been sent by the Ministry of Defence of the
25 Republic of Serbian Krajina, and that Milanovic, aka Mrgud, the
1 then-minister of the defence of the RSK, or deputy minister, because his
2 positions changed, assigned them to that task.
3 MR. JORDASH: Could I just take instructions, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. JORDASH:
7 Q. Could I ask you this, I don't know if you will be able to deal
8 with this or not but are you able to -- do you know anything about the
9 Trnovo front at the time the Skorpions were sent to the Trnovo front?
10 Do you know anything about the military operations that had been
11 ongoing there for some time?
12 A. I know that there was fierce fighting at the Trnovo, which is
13 close to Sarajevo. There was a threat from the Muslim armed forces who
14 wanted to seize the area of Trnovo and, thus, get behind the Serbian
16 Other members of the Army of Republika Srpska had to be engaged
17 elsewhere, in other fronts, and care had to be taken to ensure that the
18 area did not fall into Muslim hands.
19 Q. And before I ask you how you know this, do you confirm this:
20 That if Trnovo had fallen, Sarajevo and Pale would have been encircled?
21 Are you able to comment on that?
22 A. Well, it is a bit too wide an area to say that Sarajevo and Pale
23 would have been encircled. Pale would have been encircled, indeed;
24 whereas to encircle Sarajevo, it would have taken much more than that
25 line coming from Trnovo, but Pale would definitely come under threat.
1 Q. So basically Trnovo was critical for the survival of Pale and the
2 headquarters of the Bosnian Serbs?
3 A. Yes, yes. That position was highly significant and had to be
4 defended by stronger forces.
5 Q. Thank you. And how do you know that? What's your source of
7 A. I came to know all these facts only at the time I started working
8 on the Skorpions case. Before then, I had heard of Pale but not of
9 Trnovo and the threat against Trnovo. I got to know all these details
10 whilst I was working on the case involving the Skorpions and the arrests
11 that I made.
12 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you about one aspect of the --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash, could you -- next time
14 could, you please first ask about the knowledge. Because -- the source
15 of knowledge. Because, to some extent, you've asked opinion from the
16 witness rather than knowledge. I mean, his assessment of what would
17 happen, et cetera, et cetera. So I think if we stick to facts and then
18 we know the source of knowledge of those facts, and then it is clearer,
19 separated from opinion, because there was quite a lot of opinion that you
20 asked the witness -- or at least he gave opinion in his answers.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. How did you get these details about the importance of Trnovo to
25 A. I had a briefing with a prosecutor, the one I was just about to
1 tell you about, and, on that occasion, I learned all the details related
2 to the case, to that particular event.
3 The prosecutor briefed me on the broader context and background
4 to these events because, by then, the prosecutor had prepared much more
5 voluminous material than had actually been forwarded on as part of the
7 Q. And am I correct that the prosecutor never briefed you,
8 suggesting that there was a link between the military operations in
9 Trnovo and the military operations in Srebrenica?
10 A. I wasn't aware of these facts before I viewed the tape. And once
11 I viewed the tape, the prosecutor told me that regardless of the fact
12 that Trnovo was 150 kilometres away from Srebrenica, the individuals had
13 most likely come from Srebrenica.
14 Q. Thank you. No further questions.
15 Thank you, Mr. Witness.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
18 Ms. Friedman, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
19 You would say, apart from the furniture, you are?
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Sorry, document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you return it to Mr. Jordash, he has tasked you
24 with something.
25 MR. JORDASH: Perhaps can I deal with that by -- through the
1 bar table procedure with the Prosecution later. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And discuss it with Ms. Friedman. I have got no
3 idea what the document is about, so I can't express any -- any opinion on
5 Mr. Gagic, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. Friedman.
6 Ms. Friedman is counsel for the Prosecution.
7 Please proceed, Ms. Friedman.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. Friedman:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gagic. Can you hear me clearly?
11 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
12 Q. You testified that in September 1991, two units of volunteers
13 from the Belgrade SUP joined the military units in the
14 Republic of Croatia; is that correct?
15 A. That's correct. Two units were set up. They didn't join;
16 rather, they became military police units. As they were leaving
17 Belgrade, they were already military police units, as such.
18 Q. And most of these police officers had originally come from
19 Croatia. But just to be clear, at the time that these military police
20 units were comprised, all -- all of you were employed by the Serbian MUP;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes. At the Belgrade SUP.
23 Q. Which fell within the Ministry of Interior of the
24 Republic of Serbia; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. The Belgrade SUP was one of the units within the
1 organisation of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia.
2 Q. And you continued to be employed by the Ministry of Interior of
3 the Republic of Serbia even as the military police unit within the
4 Novi Sad Corps [sic]; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you reported at that time to the head of the
7 Territorial Defence, Radovan Stojicic, also known as Badza; correct?
8 A. Yes. My unit's commander.
9 Q. Badza -- was Badza your unit's commander then?
10 A. No. Badza was the commander of the overall TO Staff; whereas,
11 our unit had its commander.
12 Q. And that was Veljko Bogunovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Veljko Bogunovic reported to Badza; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You testified that when you arrived:
17 "A number of SAJ, special anti-terrorist units, headed by
18 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, were also there in Slavonia."
19 That's at T.17122. And these officers were also employed by the
20 Serbian MUP at the time; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Was this unit, the SAJ unit, also referred to as Plavi at the
24 A. No. The unit didn't have a name.
25 Q. Were you aware of the presence of a unit called Plavi?
1 A. No. Though there were a great many units with various names, so
2 I cannot rule out the possibility that there was one such unit, although
3 I can't say that I had known about it.
4 Q. Now, back to the SAJ unit. You said it doesn't have a name. How
5 is it referred to? How did you know who I meant? What name should we
6 attribute to it to make it clear?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] It seems to me that my learned
10 friend is trying to confuse the witness. The Prosecutor did quote what
11 the witness had to say about it in -- in direct examination. But he was
12 talking about elements of that unit in Slavonia, not about the unit as a
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please refrain from analysing and -- the
15 testimony tells us what the witness said. You may make an objection if
16 you want to, but preferably not in this way.
17 Let me have a look at the --
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Could I rephrase my question, Your Honour?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you would first give me an opportunity
20 to re-read it.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, absolutely.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may rephrase it. But I may have a comment
23 after that.
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. I asked you just a moment ago about the SAJ anti-terrorist unit
1 that was present already in Eastern Slavonia when you arrived, and after,
2 when I asked you if they were called Plavi, you said they didn't have a
3 name. So I just wanted to clarify were they called then the SAJ
4 anti-terrorist unit? Is that their name?
5 A. They were members of the SAJ. They were only a part of it.
6 There were ten to 12 at the most, and they never worked as a unit. They
7 worked as individuals who were there next to the TO Staff commander,
8 Badza. They never functioned as a group and had a name as a group.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My comment would be that you ask the witness
10 about the unit he spoke about earlier. And then to later ask him, How
11 did you know which I meant, you had clearly indicated that you meant to
12 refer to the unit the witness testified about it. So, therefore, that
13 was a question which should have left out.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. I think it is now very clear.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN:
17 Q. According to your testimony, these members of the SAJ unit
18 trained Arkan's Men, and also:
19 "Participated in the execution of combat actions, and they also
20 worked on the security of the TO headquarters and personally security of
21 Radovan Stojicic, Badza."
22 Are you aware whether they also were engaged in escorting
23 prisoners from Baranja to Eastern Slavonia, travelling through Serbia?
24 A. I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. And you described the people who were billeted in Erdut as the --
1 along with you in -- about ten days later, as the commander of the TO
2 unit with his deputy and assistant and members of the special
3 anti-terrorist unit who were securing the commander and his deputy and
4 also performing other tasks.
5 So does that refer to Badza, Zavisic and the SAJ members?
6 A. Yes. It refers to Badza.
7 Q. And was his deputy Zavisic?
8 A. I didn't hear the rest of your question. I'm sorry.
9 Yes, it does refer to Commander Badza, Trajkovic, and Zavisic.
10 Q. Did any other units or members of units of the Serbian MUP
11 police arrive -- of the Serbian MUP arrive after you, to your knowledge?
12 A. I know that two units arrived, but that was only after the combat
13 activities in Vukovar ended. So it could have been December of 1991 or
14 January of 1992. Of these two units, two police stations were set up,
15 but these two police units and stations gravitated towards Sid, which was
16 a different area of Slavonia. I wasn't in -- in contact with them
17 frequently, but I did have occasion to see them there.
18 Q. So when you arrived in September, between your units and the ones
19 already there, there were probably about 50 to 60 Serbian MUP police
20 officers; is that right?
21 A. Well, roughly 60. With my unit and the rest who were there,
22 including, Badza, Trajkovic, Zavisic and all the others, well, just under
24 Q. Do you know who Badza was reporting to?
25 A. I don't know exactly, but I can draw my conclusions. He reported
1 to the minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia and the
2 commander of the corps under which he was engaged in combat. And so he
3 would be reporting to these two structures, but when and under which
4 circumstances, I don't know.
5 Q. Just to clarify, you were asked in direct examination who you
6 placed yourselves under. But your unit, I presume, did not decide who
7 would be its commander. This was decided by the Serbian MUP leadership;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, when you testified the other day, you said that the
11 permission -- or, first, just to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we also try to find out exactly what the basis
15 of the knowledge of the previous answer is.
16 You confirmed that your commander -- who your commander would be
17 was decided by the Serbian MUP leadership.
18 Do you know any further details about -- did he tell you or --
19 how did you become aware of who had appointed your commander?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I joined the unit literally
21 one day before the unit set off. I was away for private reasons and was
22 not working for some ten or so days. So that, by the time that I heard
23 that the unit was being set up, I went to the location where the unit was
24 supposed to gather, and by that time there was already the leadership
25 structure in place.
1 Later on, in conversation with Rade Markovic, who was the chief
2 the SUP in Belgrade, I was told that it was the minister himself who
3 suggested that Bogunovic be appointed the unit's commander.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN:
7 Q. In the summary of your evidence provide by the Simatovic Defence
8 team, it originally stated that the deployment was approved by
9 Rade Markovic. And then we received a correction that you made shortly
10 before the testimony where you said that the minister was actually
11 Sokolovic, not Markovic.
12 Now when you testified the other day, you said that the
13 permission for the unit was granted by:
14 "The then-chief of the Secretariat of Interior, Rade Markovic,
15 and the then-minister of the interior, at the time, Radmilo Bogdanovic."
16 You then corrected yourself, saying that Zoran Sokolovic was
17 already minister by then.
18 And my question to you is: Whether that slip of the tongue is
19 actually due to the fact that Bogdanovic did still continue to play a big
20 role from behind the scenes although Sokolovic was minister.
21 A. No. The slip came about because the ministers changed in a very
22 short period of time so that, hence, the slip of the tongue,
23 Radmilo Bogdanovic was the minister for a couple of months; whereas,
24 Zoran Sokolovic was there for a few months only. So most of these events
25 and goings-on were related to Bogdanovic. But I am not aware of the fact
1 that Radmilo Bogdanovic continued playing a prominent role after
2 Sokolovic replaced him.
3 Q. When you say "most of these events and goings-on were related to
4 Bogdanovic," which events and goings-on are you referring to?
5 A. Well, the specific situation at hand. The war that was in the
6 offing, the events in Lika, the log revolution. All the various events
7 that characterised 1991, or roughly the summer of 1991. And for most of
8 that period, the minister was Radmilo Bogdanovic.
9 Q. We heard evidence that there was a meeting in September 1991 at
10 the Belgrade SUP where the situation in Croatia and the need to send
11 police there was discussed. It actually took place in the theatre, in
12 the Belgrade SUP building. I take it you were at that meeting?
13 A. There were such meetings happening on a daily basis. There
14 wasn't just one. I attended some of these meetings whenever my
15 acquaintances from the war-affected areas had requests made of me to
16 forward them at these meetings. Also to my crime police service, I also
17 had access to the chief of the Belgrade SUP where I would convey the
18 information. So the meetings were held periodically but the conclusion
19 was that there was nothing we could do but exert additional pressure on
20 the JNA to protect the people.
21 Q. Did you attend a meeting, though, discussing your deployment to
22 Eastern Slavonia?
23 A. Well, I joined the unit. There was no meeting. I joined the
24 unit, and then I informed my superiors of the fact that I had joined a
25 unit only at the time when it was quite clear that I would be a member of
1 that unit.
2 Q. Now, these other meetings that you said were happening at the
3 time that you did attend, was Mr. Stanisic ever present?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You testified that you continued to be employed by the
6 Serbian MUP. Isn't it also a fact that the Ministry of Defence would not
7 have a record of you being a member of the army, nor someone who had been
8 engaged in professional military service as an officer, non-commissioned
9 officer, or professional soldier; is that correct?
10 A. The leadership of the army must have information that I was a
11 member because I had received a military police ID with my photo on it
12 indicating my P.O. Box, to which I belonged, in the Novi Sad Corps. Such
13 a document must have been recorded in the archives of the army, and that
14 applies not only to me, but all 40 members of my unit. We all had such
16 Q. Okay. Well, just to be upfront with you, I'm not going to call
17 up this document right now, but we've asked for such a record from the
18 Ministry of Defence and they've returned a letter stating that they don't
19 have any record of you being a professional soldier or registered with a
20 Territorial Defence organ.
21 So, that's their position on it. Does -- would you dispute that?
22 And ...
23 A. Yes, yes. And I can prove it. I mean, I can't prove it, but I
24 believe there are members of my unit that still have that ID, and I
25 believe I could get it, get such IDs through my lawyer, and he would
1 submit them to you later.
2 Q. Yes. I understand. We have seen, as well, your military ID.
3 What I'm talking about is a bit different. We'll see. Perhaps I will
4 show you that document. We can resolve it.
5 But moving on for now. You stated that you did not take your
6 Serbian MUP ID with you and you took your military booklet instead. Was
7 this a specific instruction that you received from the Serbian MUP
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you crossed into Croatia carrying personal side-arms;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So crossing into Croatia without MUP ID and not being a JNA
14 soldier, armed, would have been illegal at the time, wouldn't it?
15 A. Well, in principle, it would be illegal. But since this was an
16 organised crossing, in a bus bearing police markings, we crossed quite
17 normally. Nobody asked any questions.
18 Q. Yes. And you stated that:
19 "The forming of the unit and its departure to Slavonia was no
20 secret, nor was there any reason for the formation of such a unit to be
22 Now, it was no secret to you, but surely if you did not have your
23 Serbian MUP IDs, then the fact that you were Serbian MUP employees must
24 have been a secret to some people in the area.
25 A. No. Not for a moment was the fact that we were members of the
1 MUP hidden from the locals or others. On the contrary, we insisted on
2 it. We emphasised it.
3 Q. Was it also not hidden, then, to the UN forces when they arrived?
4 A. I don't know whether that was concealed from the UN because very
5 soon after their arrival, I left the area at my own request, and I didn't
6 have any contact with the UN. But whether anyone concealed our presence
7 from them, I don't know.
8 Q. And you testified that in addition to your personal arms, you
9 received additional weapons from the TO defence arms depot; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you stated that these types of weapons, based on what they
12 were, they could have been weapons belonging to the JNA; correct?
13 A. The JNA or the Territorial Defence. Those were infantry weapons.
14 Q. But my understanding is that you don't have any specific
15 knowledge as to how the weapons arrived in that TO depot, how or -- or
17 A. No.
18 Q. And your information that Arkan's Men got their supplies there,
19 from my understanding, was based on seeing one of their vans at the depot
20 on one occasion; is that correct?
21 A. I saw the ammunition being loaded onto the vehicle, not by the
22 depot. The vehicle could pass by the depot on any account whatsoever,
23 even when the combat equipment is being loaded.
24 Q. Just to -- I just would like to confirm that that's the only
25 information you have on how Arkan was armed; is that right?
1 A. Even just by looking, I noticed that members of his unit had
2 weapons that was, until then, the exclusive prerogative of the JNA. The
3 paramilitaries did not have access to that kind of weapons. But when I
4 saw those weapons in their hands, I knew that they were being supplied by
5 the JNA.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: I think this would be -- I believe it's time for a
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's time for a break.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: It would be a good moment.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break and resume at five minutes to
13 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, you may proceed.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Gagic, before the break, I asked you about your records, or
18 lack of records with the Ministry of Defence, and you stated that you had
19 an ID that you could ask your lawyer to produce. Could you explain,
20 please, what kind of ID you're referring to.
21 A. It must have been a misunderstanding. There is a separate ID
22 unrelated to the military booklet that I gave to you and that is still in
23 the secretariat. It's an official ID of the military police of the
24 Yugoslav People's Army. I didn't mean to get it from my lawyer. I meant
25 that through your lawyers I would, perhaps, get that document to you from
1 one of the members of my unit, because my own ID has been destroyed.
2 Q. I see. So this is a Territorial Defence -- a military police ID;
3 is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when was yours destroyed?
6 A. My copy was destroyed during the bombing of the MUP building in
8 Q. And the other -- you said that some other members of your unit
9 may have theirs. Those are members of your military police unit in
10 Eastern Slavonia?
11 A. Yes. I mean those 40 members of the unit who went with me. I
12 think - in fact, I'm sure - some of them still have their IDs.
13 Q. Can you give us any of their names so that we could check, follow
14 up on that?
15 A. Veljko Bogunovic.
16 Q. He was the commander?
17 A. Yes. Ninko Tarbuk, Dusan Knezovic.
18 Q. And your military ID was maintained at the building of the MUP
19 Serbia? It was kept there?
20 A. That military police ID was in my locker in the building of the
21 MUP of Serbia, but it was in my desk. I didn't have time to get it out
22 because a few days before the bombing of the building I was on field
23 mission, so I failed to pick up my personal things, and many of my
24 personal items, including that ID, remained in the desk and were
25 destroyed during the bombing.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to move on to a different area.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can we please have D303, MFI.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document is under seal, Your Honours.
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: Oh, yes. Can we go into private session, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 MS. FRIEDMAN:
19 Q. Now, Mr. Gagic, you have already been asked about this report
20 during ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the formal status, of course, is --
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- still confidential so that it should not be shown
24 to the public or the status should change and just say, We all agreed,
25 there was actually no reason for it. That is, in itself, not sufficient.
1 Therefore, would you apply to change the status or ...
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour. I would apply to change the
4 JUDGE ORIE: And then other parties. Do I understand -- provided
5 by Mr. Stanisic.
6 Any objection, Mr. Jordash?
7 MR. JORDASH: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber relies on the accuracy of what the
11 parties have told the Chamber.
12 D303 becomes a public document.
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Gagic, you saw this document last week, and it's a report of
16 the Serbian DB dated the 3rd of May, 1991. And it states, quote -- it
17 states - sorry - that the situation has:
18 "Led some representatives of the Serbs in these areas to turn to
19 the Serbian MUP for help in the form of a greater presence of JNA units
20 in the wider area."
21 Do you recall looking at this document?
22 A. I saw this document here, at this trial, a few days ago. I had
23 no occasion to see it before.
24 Q. And you testified that you assumed that the political pressure
25 was exerted:
1 "... for the MUP to have the army get out of the barracks and to
2 carry out patrols and secure the area in this matter."
3 Is it your evidence that the intention was for the army to
4 perform policing work rather than aggressive attacks?
5 A. I think that's how we can interpret it because the police forces
6 in that area did not exist, apart from the police force of the MUP of
7 Croatia. They did not deal with keeping law and order. They were
8 causing unrest rather than suppressing them and it was necessary to have
9 a presence of some uniformed organs to restore peace and to prevent
11 Q. And the document is marked strictly confidential, and if we look
12 at the top right of the document, we see that there's also a caution that
13 says: "Return after reading!"
14 This comment, "Return after reading!," indicates a very high
15 level of secrecy. Wouldn't you agree?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it is uncommon, isn't it, to see this type of instruction on
18 an information report or an Official Note like this one.
19 A. Well, it may sound unusual to you but it is not at all unusual.
20 I don't see from the document to whom it was sent. I can only see who
21 authored it, but I don't see to whom it was sent. But it's normal even
22 when sending something to the highest leadership like members of
23 Parliament to ask them to return the documents after reading rather than
24 keeping them.
25 Q. So you say that you've seen this type of remark before?
1 A. I've seen documents that I was required to return after reading
2 too. But I didn't see this document and this type of document that I was
3 not a recipient of except here, at the trial.
4 Q. Now, you were asked last week to view a video-clip containing
5 remarks of Branko Kostic, vice-president of the SFRY Presidency. And you
6 said that:
7 "People are given promises that they would be protected from an
8 escalation of conflicts and that they would be provided safety to
9 alleviate the fears that they felt toward the Croatia police."
10 Is it your evidence that your deployment in September 1991 was
11 connected to the fear that the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia felt as a result
12 of Croatian police officers?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you arrived in Dalj, though, in September 1991, it had
15 already been taken over by the JNA; correct?
16 A. The Territorial Defence.
17 Q. After the JNA had entered on the 2nd of August; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the only police forces in Dalj at that time were comprised of
20 police officers of Serbian ethnicity; is that correct?
21 A. There were also policemen of Muslim ethnicity.
22 Q. Were the people -- was the police force predominantly Serb
24 A. Yes. But ...
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat what you just said.
2 You said:
3 "Yes. But ..."
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police force was very small
5 numerically, insufficient.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN:
7 Q. And it was the same in Erdut and all of SBWS, in fact, wasn't it,
8 that there was no longer a predominantly Croat police force. It was at
9 that time predominantly ethnic Serb?
10 A. Part of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja had a police force of
11 precisely that composition.
12 Q. I see, actually, that one of your answers is not recorded in the
14 I asked after whether when you arrived it was after the JNA had
15 already entered. And you answered "The Territorial Defence." And then I
16 asked "After the JNA entered on the 2nd of August; isn't that right?"
17 Could you repeat your answer to that question?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer was yes.
19 MS. FRIEDMAN:
20 Q. Thank you. That was just to fill in the transcript.
21 Now, you testified last week that as a result of your work, you
22 would communicate with large numbers of policemen from other republics
23 and therefore knew a lot of policemen who came to Serbia after they'd
24 left Croatian service on their own or were dismissed.
25 So, you testified that:
1 "The majority of them contacted me asking me to help them resolve
2 their status."
3 Did you inform the Serbian DB about who had contacted you?
4 A. No.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: Would the Court Officer please display 65
6 ter 1D2439.
7 The document is entitled: "List of suspended (fired) police
8 employees in the territory of Slavonia and Baranja, engaged in the
9 defence of certain locations."
10 Q. I want to ask you -- I take it you recognise some of the names on
11 this list?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, there's a pen at your desk. I would like -- on the screen
14 in front of you, I would like to ask if you can take that pen.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: Perhaps the Court Usher will show you.
16 Q. Can you put a check mark, please, next to the people that you
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. You know, I realise, actually, that it may be a little hard to
20 tell, just because of the pen, not you.
21 Could you maybe just read into the record the numbers of the
22 people that you recognise, not their names.
23 A. [In English] Okay.
24 [Interpretation] Number 1; number 2; number 6; number 8;
25 number 12; 16; 19.
1 Q. Okay. And before we move to the second page, I just want to ask
2 whether any of -- first of all, to the best of your knowledge, is this
3 information true that they're originally from Croatia and were dismissed
4 from their positions but then serving elsewhere still in -- in Slavonia
5 and Baranja?
6 A. Concerning those I knew personally, I knew they were members of
7 the service. I knew they were all deployed, and I met them all there.
8 In fact, I -- I didn't know them before that.
9 Q. Were any of them people that had requested employment first in
11 A. No. These are men who had never relocated from Slavonia. I was
12 approached by people who hailed from other parts of Croatia who were
13 unable to stay in their native territory, and these are men whom I met
14 when I went to Slavonia.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: And now can we have the second page, please.
17 And -- I think, in B/C/S -- yes. Good. That's right. The third
18 in English; second in B/C/S. Thank you.
19 Q. And can you name in the first section? Are there any more
21 A. The rest of the names, up to 24, I'm not familiar with.
22 Q. And under Osijek?
23 A. No one.
24 Q. And Beli Manastir?
25 A. No one.
1 Q. Okay.
2 Do you know any of these people to be operatives of the
3 Serbian DB?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know any of them to be sources who provided information to
6 the Serbian DB?
7 A. I don't know that they were associates or sources of the service.
8 The service would keep that in strict secrecy.
9 Q. And the second man on the list, Dragan Lazic, was this the man
10 that you were advising and instructing on setting up police stations?
11 A. At that time, he was appointed minister or deputy minister of the
12 interior of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and I worked with him, gave
13 him certain instructions, and I had quite a lot of contact with him. He
14 also had a brother whose name I forget. They are twins, and they look
15 pretty much the same.
16 Q. Did he also become, at the time that you were in
17 Eastern Slavonia, the head of the Vukovar SUP?
18 A. Yes. At that time he was appointed to a very high post. I
19 believe he was even deputy or assistant minister, in fact, of the
20 interior of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. And since it was a separate
21 entity, he was practically minister of the interior of that part of the
22 Republic of Serbian Krajina.
23 Q. So, I presume, though, you're talking about a later period,
24 though, when the Republic of Serbian Krajina was established? I had
25 first intended to ask you about September 1991 and what role he had then.
1 I understand that to be a -- or, rather, October, the -- just limited to
2 the police. But was he already a minister in the government at that
4 A. I think he became a cabinet minister during my tenure there. He
5 was assistant minister officially but he was functionally minister for
6 that part of the territory because the Knin part of the territory was
7 separated from the rest, and he was practically minister for -- for that
8 area. And I met him only in mid-October, not immediately upon my
9 arrival. He was working as the leader of the SUP of Vukovar.
10 Q. Okay. And at what point, then, did he hold that position until
11 as leader of the SUP of Vukovar? From mid-October until when?
12 A. I really couldn't tell you with any certainty, and I wouldn't
13 like to guess.
14 Q. Okay. And this document that we have before us created by the
15 Serbian DB in Belgrade, were you aware that they were keeping track of
16 the police officers who were engaged in Slavonia and Baranja?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you agree that when the document says that these individuals
19 are "engaged in the defence of certain locations" this suggests a common
20 interest shared by the Serbian DB who authored the document and the Serbs
21 in the area as mentioned in the document?
22 A. Well, I can't say whether the DB had a vested interest or not.
23 All I know is that most men from this list were employees of the public
24 security section before they left the service or were expelled from the
1 Q. The public security section of the Croatian MUP; is that right?
2 Or do you mean something else?
3 A. Yes, yes, that's what I mean.
4 Q. And I'm finished with this document.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, it was provided by the
6 Stanisic Defence. We don't have any information on provenance. We'd
7 like it to be marked for identification until such time as it is
9 MR. JORDASH: I'm hesitating because it seems slightly
10 topsy-turvy to use a document suggesting that it's reliable, and then to
11 query its reliability at the end of using it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Friedman, it is uncommon to say that we first
13 want to know whether it's -- where it comes from. That's usually the
14 language used if you oppose the admission of a document.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: As we have expressed earlier and I can give a
16 fuller position, but we do not want to tender private collection
17 documents without having information on provenance. For now, the witness
18 is here, and I thought he could provide some information on the document.
19 So it would be worth getting that information at this time. But we would
20 not want to tender it before we can have a better idea of its
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time, of course, you went to the
23 content of it. But let's consider what that situation is. But before we
24 do that -- Witness, at the top of the document you see, you see under the
25 date "ZH." Do you know what that stands for?
1 You see it in the ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
3 Those are the initials of the person who drafted the document.
4 Based on that, you can identify which employee wrote this.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And do you, by any chance, know anyone with the
6 initials ZH working in the MUP?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the State Security Service,
8 and I really don't know. I can't think of anyone with the initials ZH,
9 and I've never seen the initials on any other document before.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 The number of the document would be?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2439 will receive number P3080,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, you were asked about whether you ever heard of Mr. Simatovic
18 being at a dinner or ceremony after the fall of Vukovar, and you
19 responded that you had not. But you were not actually looking for
20 information, trying to gather information about Mr. Simatovic at any
21 point, were you?
22 A. I said Mr. Simatovic did not attend a single dinner that I
23 attended. I have also said I haven't heard of him attending any other
24 meeting that I didn't attend. But it's true that I wasn't gathering any
25 information on Mr. Simatovic, and I didn't have the right to.
1 Q. And you were never -- you've not been employed at the Serbian DB
2 or successor, BIA; is that correct?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. And to this day, you may not know that some of the people that
5 you were working with were from the Serbian DB; is that right?
6 A. I don't rule out the possibility. But I can't confirm it.
7 Q. Do you know that -- that Ilija Kojic worked for the Serbian DB?
8 A. Well, you must specify. What do you mean by "worked for"? Was
9 an employee? Was an agent? Or was a source?
10 Q. Our case and our evidence is that he was an employee. Were you
11 aware of that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you have other information, though, that suggests that he was
14 an agent or a source?
15 A. I have information that he was a registered agent, but in view of
16 the fact that there was a war on -- so I don't have information that he
17 was a registered agent. But in view of the fact that there was a war on,
18 he may have -- it could not be excluded the possibility that he may have
19 furnished the state security in the Republic of Serbia with certain
21 Q. Okay. So you first said, "I have information that he was a
22 registered agent," or that how it's recorded. But is your answer that
23 you don't know he was a registered agent but he may have given
24 information to the state security.
25 Is that how I understand your answer?
1 A. My answer is this: I don't know that he was an active employee
2 of the state security or that he was a registered agent of the
3 State Security Service. And I assume that he did provide the
4 State Security Service with information.
5 Q. Why do you assume that?
6 A. Well, because that was a sort of principle. Certain events of
7 security interest for the Republic of Serbia, the information about those
8 events -- those events, would also come from the war-affected areas.
9 Q. And Radoslav Kostic. Did you know him?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Had you heard of him?
12 A. I did hear of him. Actually, at one point, when Radoslav Kostic
13 was killed, I thought that another Radoslav Kostic, aka Labrador, was
14 killed. And it was only then that I realised that they were two
15 different people. Before then, I wasn't aware of the fact that there
16 were two different Kostics.
17 Q. Did you hear that Radoslav Kostic, even in 1991, was an employee
18 of the Serbian DB?
19 A. No. I have no knowledge whatsoever of his employment, including
20 whether he was working for the public security station.
21 What I did hear was that he was a policeman in one of the local
22 police stations. That was the information I had at the time he was
23 killed. At first, I was surprised to hear that he was a policeman in
24 view of his involvement in military activities. But then I learned that
25 they were two different people.
1 Q. And lastly, we heard evidence in this trial that Dragan Lazic,
2 this man that you were assisting in setting up the police stations,
3 worked in the Serbian DB.
4 So my question to you is whether he ever told you that.
5 A. No.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can we go into private session, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 17256-17260 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: And this is 65 ter 6228.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Dusan Momcilovic: The Glina
14 public security station consists of the active complement, the reserve
15 complement and the civilian sector working on administrative affairs.
16 The active complement consists of former employees of this public
17 security station and new employees who have proved that they are
18 professionals in combat operations. Since there is still a state of war
19 in the Glina municipality, we need such personnel for future operations
20 and, if necessary, to guard the border. The reserve complement also
21 consists of the former reserve force and volunteers who have proved
22 themselves in combat together with the former reservists and found their
23 place and role in this public security station.
24 "As regards the reserve and active complements, right now, we
25 are short of materiel. Not everyone has the same ... standard uniforms,
1 adequate weapons, or motor pool. As regards uniforms, we are getting
2 help from Serbia for the time being. Blue police uniforms and blue
3 winter uniforms from the reserve ...
4 "Reporter: ... tell us about the co-operation between the public
5 security station and the Ministry of Interior of the Serbian Krajina.
6 "Dusan Momcilovic: The Glina public security station is part of
7 the Knin Ministry of Interior, and we have receive all our tasks and
8 requests from Knin. We respond directly to the -- we answer directly to
9 the Ministry of Interior in Knin. We also co-operate very well with the
10 Municipal Assembly as the organ of authority that finances us, together
11 with the MUP ... at the same time, we carry out crime scene examinations
12 and other applications and requests that need to be processed through the
13 Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia. Various kinds of
14 forensic analysis and other material aid, while professional literature
15 and the Law on Internal Affairs organs, that's at the level of the
16 Krajina ..."
17 Q. In this interview, Mr. Momcilovic stated that the Glina public
18 security station carried out forensic analyses and other applications and
19 requests through the Serbian MUP. It's quite clear that the police
20 stations in Eastern Slavonia received personnel from the Serbian MUP.
21 Aside from that, can you -- are you aware of any other instances where
22 they made additional requests and received additional assistance?
23 A. Well, I hope that I understand the gist of your question, though
24 it didn't come clear in interpretation.
25 In order to have a fully functioning police apparatus, there
1 needs to be an integrated system. At the point in time where this system
2 broke through in the Republic of Croatia, links were re-established with
3 the MUP of Serbia. For this reason, various forensic analyses such as
4 drug analysis, et cetera, were being done in the Republic of Serbia
5 because they could not be done in Croatia, whereas the RSK did not have
6 forensic offices of its own.
7 I did say earlier on in one of my answers that we did have these
8 blue winter uniforms, which means that some of them were provided to this
9 particular police station as well.
10 Aside from that, what else could there have been? Well, perhaps
11 a vehicle would be set aside for the purposes of a police station.
12 As for the rest, I don't see what else the MUP of Serbia could
13 have done without going through the RSK MUP.
14 Q. Now, I just want to quote to you a part of an interview that,
15 unfortunately, did not appear in this clip, but we will add it and it can
16 be verified.
17 And in this end part, Momcilovic says that:
18 "Since we are in a state of war, the Glina public security
19 station is ready to join the struggle against the enemy at any moment and
20 offer any kind of help necessary to all the organs of the Glina
22 So my question to you is whether this willingness to join in on
23 the struggle and offer any assistance also reflects the attitude of the
24 police stations in Eastern Slavonia in 1991 and 1992?
25 A. Yes. The police force of Eastern Slavonia, as well as the police
1 force in Knin, was ready and prepared to provide assistance to all the
2 organs who needed it.
3 Now, what their abilities were is a different matter, but
4 whatever they had at their disposal they were prepared to place -- to --
5 to -- to use, to help other organs that needed it in Krajina and
6 Republika Srpska.
7 Q. And I just have two more questions today.
8 From the time that you arrived Eastern Slavonia until the time
9 that you left, had the Serb-held territory expanded?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Actually, that's my final question then for the day.
12 Thank you, Mr. Gagic.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need tomorrow?
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: I expect to use the first session. I think no
16 more, but possibly, I would say, up to hour and a half.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you would try to conclude in the first session.
18 Mr. Gagic, we'll adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow,
19 Tuesday, the 14th of February, at a quarter past 2.00 in the same
20 Courtroom II. And I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak nor
21 communicate in any other way, with whomever, about testimony, either
22 given, or still to be given.
23 We stand adjourned.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of
1 February, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.