1 Tuesday, 6 March 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 And before I give an opportunity, because you wanted to address
13 the Chamber, I have two short matters which I'd like to address first,
14 but for the first one we have to move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 17906 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 On the 23rd of February, the Chamber has granted the Prosecution
6 a three-week extension to respond to the Stanisic Defence's consolidated
7 bar table motion, Mr. Groome. And there was a separate motion concerning
8 three documents only, filed on that same day, the 23rd of February.
9 Now, no response has been received to that motion, and the
10 Chamber understood the Prosecution's arguments for an extension to hold
11 true only for the consolidated motion. But there may have been a
12 misunderstanding. But I would like to inquire whether the Prosecution
13 wanted to respond to the bar table motion of three documents only,
14 because that was filed on the 23rd of February, which means that the
15 time-limits expires this Thursday, I think, on the 8th of the March.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask Ms. Marcus to deal with
17 that. She is more familiar with the issue.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Marcus.
19 MS. MARCUS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank you.
20 We did -- it was probably my error, we did take that to be part
21 of the bar table just having been filed separately, so we did make the
22 obviously incorrect assumption that that would all be extended with the
23 deadline. We can certainly respond on those three documents in time for
24 Thursday if Your Honours would prefer. It's possible, though, that the
25 arguments that we might make in that submission would relate to the
1 arguments that we would make in the later submission and we may then just
2 cross-reference it, if that's acceptable to Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And -- any preference by the Stanisic Defence?
4 I can imagine to making cross-references is another source of mistakes,
5 isn't it, and it's about three documents only, and that's on the
6 totalities of a limited number. So I wonder whether we should insist on
7 receiving a response on the three by Thursday or that we just include
8 them in the whole bunch.
9 MR. JORDASH: In many ways, it makes sense to include them all in
10 the whole bunch, I think.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The extension of time is granted also for the motion
14 relating only to the three documents.
15 Then could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
16 Mr. Petrovic, it will be you who is --
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: When I read the summary of the anticipated
19 testimony, the -- there are a few lines which sound very familiar to me,
20 Mr. Petrovic, like the witness is expected to testify on the
21 deterioration of interethnic relations in the Republic of Croatia after
22 the first multi-party elections. I have a vague recollection that I've
23 seen this language before, and I also remember that it was sometimes not
24 disputed by the Prosecution that the interethnic relations became worse.
25 Similar, could you please keep in mind very carefully that we are
1 not hearing repetitious evidence, because, especially if it's not the
2 core issues of this case, then I think there would be no need to hear
3 that. There's no great dispute about worsening of the interethnic
4 relations, Ms. Marcus, is there?
5 MS. MARCUS: No, Your Honour.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Will you also carefully check whether there is
8 anything in the adjudicated facts which might cover any of the topics.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we will do so, Your Honour.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
14 make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
15 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: PETAR DJUKIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, please be seated.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, the Chamber has been informed about your
25 medical condition. If at any time you would need a break, don't hesitate
1 to address me.
2 We usually take a break after one hour and 15 minutes. A break
3 will then be half an hour. And then we have two more sessions of 75
4 minutes. Again, divided by a break of half an hour, so that you know,
5 more or less what to expect. But if you need any additional break, don't
6 hesitate to ask for it.
7 You will first be examined by Mr. Petrovic, and Mr. Petrovic is
8 counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
9 Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Examination by Mr. Petrovic:
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. Can you tell us your full name for the record.
16 A. My name is Petar Djukic, nicknamed Pero. Paragraf.
17 Q. Can you give us your date of birth?
18 A. On the 11th of July, 1942, in Cerik Brcko, Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. Can you tell us where you've completed your primary and secondary
21 A. I completed my primary school in the village of Bosanska Bijela
22 in the municipality of Brcko, and I then proceeded to the faculty which I
23 graduated from in Zagreb.
24 Q. And which university was that?
25 A. It was the study of legal affairs, affairs of state
2 Q. Can we just please make sure that we make a break between
3 question and answer.
4 A. Yes, I will need to adapt to that.
5 Q. Witness, you said that you obtained university degree in Zagreb.
6 Where was that?
7 A. First, I attended a two-year course in administration affairs,
8 and then proceeded to study at the law school in Zagreb.
9 Q. Did you attend any master courses?
10 A. Yes, with the renowned professor, Franjo Bacic. I attended the
11 masters course in criminal law. After I had to leave Zagreb, I applied
12 to defend my masters thesis in Novi Sad. Unfortunately, my duties
13 prevented me from doing so.
14 Q. Sir, where did you first get employment?
15 A. I first got employment as policeman in the village called
16 Drenovci, after I completed the policing school where I was the best in
17 my class.
18 Q. Sir, did you work for a while in Zupanja and, if so, when was
20 A. Let me clarify this. Drenovci and Zupanja come under the same
21 secretariat. Drenovci are in a substation. Between 1968 and 1972 I was
22 there, and in Zupanja, charged with crime.
23 Q. It says here that you worked there until 1972. Until which year
24 did you work in Zupanja?
25 A. Until 1972 I was charged with crime. And between 1972 and 1977 I
1 was the commander of the police station in Zupanja.
2 Q. Did there come a time when you were transferred to the Republican
3 Secretariat of the interior in Zagreb?
4 A. Yes. Let me just say that after the post of the commander of
5 police, I was a police officer charged with defence and management of
6 emergency situations. And then I was transferred to the Republican
7 Secretariat of the interior in the sector for operative affairs, and I
8 was occupying the post of inspector for the method of work --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch what year that
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the year you are talking about.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1982.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, sir, did you at some point defend a dissertation which
15 granted you the highest post in the Republic of Croatia?
16 A. Yes. In 1987, I defended the dissertation on the topic of the
17 basic policing duties in the service of public security.
18 Before that, I was appointed to the post of the chief of the
19 police of the Socialist Republic of Croatia, and I had roughly 11.000
21 Q. Witness, up until here were you employed in the RSUP Croatia?
22 A. Until the 20th of June 1990.
23 Q. Witness, we will skip the war period for now and I'll ask you to
24 tell us if at the end of 1995 you were received any sort of duty from the
25 international community.
1 A. In the month of December, after the signing of the Erdut
2 Agreement on the peaceful reintegration of the district of Eastern
3 Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem based on which Resolution 1037 was adopted by
4 the Security Council of the United Nations, on the order of certain
5 international representatives, I was charged with running the work of
6 interim police forces.
7 Q. Mr. Djukic, were you appointed to some duty on 1st July 1996 and
8 if so by whom?
9 A. After the UNTAES mission was set up, Ambassador Jacques-Paul
10 Klein appointed me to the post of the chief or head of the interim police
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, it was announced that some documents
13 would be used with this witness. I really wondered whether there was a
14 dispute about an appointment the 1st of July by Mr. Klein of this witness
15 to a certain task. We even received copies of the documents confirming
16 that. I do not know what the exact relevance for this is apart from that
17 apparently that the international community entrusted some tasks to -- to
18 this witness.
19 Have you discussed with Ms. Marcus whether there is any dispute
20 about appointment, task, and, of course, the next steps will be whether
21 they were happy with what the witness did. Certificates of appreciation.
22 Is there any dispute about that?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't believe that
24 there is any dispute about that, but I want Their Honours to see it. I
25 want this to be heard, because I would like to pin-point the serious
1 affairs that the witness was charged with. It will only take a couple of
2 minutes, and these are the reasons why I would like to present these
3 issues to you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Why don't you agree on that with the Prosecution?
5 Why do we have to -- I mean, you have seen that important tasks, we
6 received announcement of these documents to be used, so what you want to
7 pin-point at is -- is first something you could have agreed on because
8 this is no dispute about it. Second, you could have -- you could have
9 sought admission through a bar table exercise because it's perfectly
10 clear what these documents say.
11 So if there is anything in addition to that which sheds a
12 different light on it, please proceed. Otherwise, choose one of these
13 avenues to bring it to our attention. You may have noticed that it is
14 already to our attention, by the way, but not yet as evidence.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in that case, if my
16 colleague doesn't object can 2D1211, 2D1212, and 2D1210 be admitted as
17 Defence exhibits.
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have no objection to 2D1210, or
19 2D1212. The 2D1211 is a bit of a curious document. We don't contest the
20 facts as Your Honours has set forth that the witness held this position.
21 But the document is just a bit curious. It's unsigned. The original is
22 in B/C/S rather than in English, so I'm just -- I'm curious about that
23 particular document.
24 But we do not contest the facts as asserted.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us whether we would receive a
3 translation soon from the document which is apparently -- let me just
4 have a look.
5 The unsigned ones seems to be as 462 --
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 1211, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's 1211.
8 Ms. Marcus, the copies we received is with handwriting on the
9 top, 462/96 handwritten. That is the unsigned document. We have
10 translation but no signature.
11 Is that --
12 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- the one you are referring to?
14 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. And it -- if that's -- I'm not
15 sure which one is the original, but assuming it was Jacques Klein who
16 wrote it and it was a UN document, I would think the original is English
17 and the English that I have is a translation of the B/C/S. Neither of
18 them are signed, Your Honour, so ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can assist.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please --
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] When he came to The Hague, the
23 witness brought along the Serbian version of the document that he
24 received, as far as I understand, at the time when Jacques Klein gave it
25 to him. The Serbian version is the basic one that we use. The
1 translation is one that we've produced, and I think that the witness can
2 help us. He does have the English version of the document which he
3 hasn't brought along The Hague. But if this is contested and if asked,
4 I'm sure that he will find ways to deliver it to us.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is it quite possible for
6 me to bring that over.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a -- any signed copy of the letter of
9 the 2nd of June in which reference is made to the appointment on the 1st
10 of July?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the English version back at
12 home. The head of the interim administration was an authority to me. I
13 can't go into how his documents were produced. They never bore a stamp
14 or a seal of any sort, his documents. There was just this designation of
15 the United Nations.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The English copy you have got at home. Is that a
17 signed letter?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I presume so. I can tell you that
19 I received numerous --
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- citations in writing from
22 Mr. Klein commending me, and believe me when I tell you it's been a long
23 time ago, so I can't remember all the details.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question, that you presume that
25 the document at home is signed.
1 Let me just check. 2D1210 and 2D1212 are admitted into evidence
2 and the numbers assigned to these documents, Mr. Registrar, would be.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter document 2D1212 shall be
4 assigned Exhibit D759.
5 And 65 ter document 2D1210 shall be assigned Exhibit D760.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they're admitted into evidence under these
9 Then for 2D1211, Mr. Registrar, which will be marked for
10 identification, what number would be assigned?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D761. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Mr. Petrovic, to the extent the witness has a signed version of
14 that letter available, we'll invite him to -- to provide us --
15 Yes, please proceed.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. We will
17 follow your instructions, as far as this document is concerned.
18 Q. Now, Witness, sir, I just have one question with regard to your
19 relationship with Mr. Klein.
20 Did Mr. Klein ever offer you a job after the completion of your
21 mission in Eastern Slavonia?
22 A. Well, since it is being questioned here whether I ever was in
23 actual fact the head of the interim police or not, let me just say a few
24 words --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. That is not in
1 dispute. It's not challenged. So, therefore, you don't have to worry
2 about that.
3 Did Mr. Klein ever offer you a job, as Mr. Petrovic asked you?
4 A yes or a no simply would do.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he certainly did. And I have
6 to stress that he commended me especially for my great contribution, as
7 did his -- as did Ambassador Walker in January 1998 in Zagreb.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Mr. Petrovic, to the extent it was your point to establish that
10 the witness was held in high esteem by -- by Mr. Klein and by others,
11 then that point is clear.
12 You may proceed.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Djukic, you said a moment ago that up until 1990, you were
15 employed with the Republic of Croatia SUP. Would you please tell us
16 briefly why you stopped working in the Croatian SUP in June 1990.
17 A. In the Socialist Federal Republic of Croatia after the democratic
18 elections there were fundamental changes in the political order in the
19 state, and I had given my oath to the socialist republic and I was not
20 prepared to defend the political system of any other order.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Could you please tell us where you went
22 from Zagreb?
23 A. I want back to Cerik, my birth place, in Brcko municipality
24 because that was the only way out for me.
25 Q. Mr. Djukic, when you arrived in Cerik did you offer your services
1 to any structure or any organisation in that area?
2 A. Since I was 48 years old I was a conscript, according to the Law
3 on The Military Forces, so I reported immediately to the JNA and to the
4 chief of security and intelligence, Mr. Momcilo Petrovic, and I said that
5 I was prepared to offer my services, that I was at his disposal, all in
6 the hope that we would remain within Yugoslavia.
7 Q. Witness, sir, the record does not show which garrison you
8 mentioned so would you please repeat it.
9 A. This was the Brcko garrison. The garrison commander was
10 Colonel Pavle Milinkovic.
11 Q. Sir, Mr. Djukic, you said that you worked with the chief of
12 intelligence, Mr. Petrovic. Could you please tell us what that consisted
13 in, how did you work with him, with Mr. Petrovic, and did you have a
14 code-name at the time?
15 A. As I was still in -- officially I was still assigned to Zagreb
16 and I had not received my papers, my code-name was Magistar, Magistar.
17 Q. Witness, sir, did you work with any other officer -- JNA officer
18 at the time? And if we need to move to private session so that you can
19 tell us his name, would you please just let us know?
20 A. Well, I would appreciate it if we could move to private session
21 for benefit of the person in question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections against going into private
23 session. Although ...
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The captain who was my
25 connection --
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
2 continues] ...
3 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Djukic, on instructions from the JNA, did you join any
25 political party at the time and, if so, which one?
1 A. Well, in the area where I lived, there were 19.7 per cent of
2 Serbs. The ratio in the event of war would be 1 to 5. I was asked to
3 join, which was in accordance with the Communist party, I joined the late
4 Professor Nijaz Durakovic's party in Brcko, the social democrats.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic, for your answers, but would you please
6 just speak a little more slowly so that all that you say can be reflected
7 in the transcript.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could you make a pause
9 between question and answer and answer and question.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Djukic, in Pelagicevo in October 1991, did there come a time
12 when an armed unit arrived there?
13 A. Yes, certainly. The 17th Tactical Group arrived, headed by
14 Colonel Stevan Nikolic [Realtime transcript read in error "Niklovic"],
15 aka Kriger.
16 Q. Can you tell us where the 17th Tactical Group came from?
17 A. It came from Derventa because it was under pressure there from
18 Croatian paramilitary formations, and they tried to avoid young soldiers
19 being killed.
20 Q. Mr. Witness could you please repeat the name of the commander of
21 this 17th Tactical Group because it is not correctly recorded in the
23 A. Stevan Nikolic, a colonel. His nickname was Kriger because he
24 had a cap that was reminiscent of the cap that was worn by a character
25 from a Belgrade TV series, Otpisani, who was called Kriger.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Tell us, please, in the autumn of 1991
2 and in early 1992, did you know what the intentions of the Croatian side
3 were, both the Croatians in the Republic of Croatia as well as in Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina, as far as some areas in the Sava river valley were
6 A. Yes, I do know of that because I worked for many years in Zupanja
7 and it bordered on the Sava with Bosnia along a stretch of 108
9 The plan of the Croatian forces was to take control of Modrica,
10 Odzak, Samac, Orasje, Brcko, and to cut the corridors so that Knin would
11 remain in the rear supported and that -- that, in fact, so that
12 logistical support could be provided from Knin.
13 Q. Mr. Witness, perhaps because of the speed of your speech not all
14 of the towns that you mentioned were recorded in the transcript.
15 Could you please repeat them? Repeat the towns that you
17 A. Derventa, Modrica, Odzak, Bosanski Samac, Orasje, Brcko; in other
18 words, the Bosnian Posavina.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Could you tell us how the 17th Tactical
20 Group was reinforced militarily, if you know. And I'm referring to this
21 period, late 1991/early 1992.
22 A. Well, I'm very familiar with that. It was reinforced by
23 conscripts in the early days by the very young ones who had just served
24 in the JNA.
25 Q. Could you tell us which towns those conscripts came from and, if
1 you knew, what ethnicity they were?
2 A. They were from all the Serb villages in Gradacac and Samac
3 municipalities, except in Spijunica and Srnice that were separate. And
4 my village Srnice, which had been surrounded by Bukvik --
5 THE INTERPRETER: And interpreter could not catch the other name.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because they did not have any
7 links with the garrison, but the most prominent villages were Batkusa,
8 Slatina, Krusko Polje, and a series of other villages.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- you really have to slow down because
10 otherwise the interpreters are unable to follow what you say.
11 Could I first seek clarification of the following: Your -- part
12 of your last answer:
13 "... was they were from all the Serb villages in," and what did
14 you then say? "In ... and Samac." What did you first mentioned?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Spijunica, Srnice, Cerik, Plazevac,
16 Porebrice, Pelagicevo, Donji Zabar, Obudovac, Slatina, Batkusa,
17 Krusko Polje, and the town Bosanski Samac itself.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that what is now still missing will
19 be corrected after having heard the audio.
20 Mr. Petrovic, could you please take care that the witness slows
21 down and that breaks are made.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both, on behalf of
24 the witness and in my own name, I will say that we will do our best to
25 comply with your instructions.
1 Q. Witness, sir, you have just told us what villages the reservists
2 who reinforced the 17th Tactical Group were from. Now could you tell us
3 how these individuals were armed and by whom?
4 A. In the first -- at the first stage, the conscripts were armed
5 only in the border areas that had contact with Croatian and Muslim
6 villages because it was assessed that possible attack would come from
7 there. The arming was done exclusively by the JNA and the weapons used
8 for -- for arming them was the -- were the weapons that were envisaged
9 per establishment within the JNA. Per each ten soldiers there would be
10 one machine-gun, six automatic and three semi-automatic rifles, plus
11 handheld launchers; two hand grenades; bayonets, and so on. If
12 necessary, I can add whatever is necessary.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: If there is any --
14 if anything else was necessary, then it would be added on.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Tell us, please, as these reservists, as
17 you told us, were from the villages in the area of Bosanska Posavina, did
18 they go home when -- from those units? Did they go on home on leave from
19 those units and did they take something with them?
20 A. Well, yes, some of those reservists - and I have to stress this -
21 did take these weapons to their homes, and in the first phase only night
22 patrols were established within villages. They started doing that. And
23 they were -- they were trying to be as discreet as possible so that they
24 would not upset or, rather, bring some restlessness among the other --
25 the non-Serb population. Although most of them -- most of the population
1 was Serb.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, the reservists who went home on leave, did they
3 organise themselves once they got back to their villages?
4 A. Well, I will repeat again, this was the case only in the border
5 areas of the 17th Tactical Group area of responsibility. Only small
6 units were established; in other words, platoons of up to 30 men.
7 Q. Can you tell us who commanded these platoons that were being
8 established within these villages?
9 A. They were under the command of reserve commissioned and
10 non-commissioned officers of the JNA, ones that would normally reside in
11 their homes until they were activated, although not yet mobilised.
12 Q. Mr. Djukic, you mentioned the weapons that the reservists had.
13 Can you tell us what was the weaponry at the disposal of the
14 17th Tactical Group, if you know, in the period we are discussing, end of
15 1991 and early 1992?
16 A. Of course I know. The 17th Tactical Group had Howitzers of 155
17 millimetres, tanks T-34, the Pragas, armoured combat vehicles and a
18 number of mortars, 82 and 60 millimetres. In addition to that they had
19 anti-tank assets, Zoljas and Osas, hand-held rocket-launchers.
20 Q. Witness, sir, do you know within which larger organism was the
21 17th Tactical Group?
22 A. Until the month of May, they were under the Tuzla Corps under the
23 command of Sava Ivanovic.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure about the last name.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the name of the commander. Sava,
1 and then?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jankovic. I apologise. I have a
3 bit of a sore throat.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Djukic, you can help yourself to some water.
6 Mr. Djukic, did there come a time when you came in touch with
7 Colonel Nikolic, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group?
8 A. Yes. From the day he assumed his position, I was at his disposal
9 at all times. I help him to familiarise himself with the area, the
10 population, the demographics, and the other basic information. For
11 instance, the experience that the local population brought over from the
12 previous war which was that they would not agree to leaving their local
13 areas to fight elsewhere.
14 Q. Did you make any assessments for him, for Mr. Nikolic?
15 A. Yes, of course. I worked with his officers. I cannot say their
16 worked or produced anything for them, other than providing them with
18 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know if, during the fighting in the Republic
19 of Croatia, there was a plane that was shot down somewhere in the area of
21 A. In Slavonski Brod, which is on the other bank of the Sava river
22 across from Bosanski Samac, a plane was shot down. The pilot ejected
23 himself and the plane crashed in a village there in Croatia. The pilot
24 was saved and with the assistance of the former members of the State
25 Security Service, Simo Zaric, they went to the command of the air force
1 in Belgrade. They brought the pilot back. And as a reward, the peasant
2 who was there and saved the pilot was given a uniform.
3 Q. You mentioned that Simo Zaric was a member of the State Security
4 Service. Can you tell us which service was that?
5 A. The State Security Service of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was the
6 head of the forward outpost of that service in Modrica.
7 Q. You told us that Simo Zaric interceded in this affair where the
8 pilot was taken back to the command of the air force in Belgrade.
9 Did Zaric come into contact with anyone on that occasion?
10 A. Yes, I know about that. For a great many years I was in contact
11 with Zaric both privately and professionally. He got to know certain
12 generals and commanders who were members of the air force.
13 Q. If you can recall, can you give us any names of the generals that
14 Simo Zaric got in touch with?
15 A. It was Bajic, who was the -- the right wing of the partisan
16 football club.
17 Q. Mr. Djukic, is that the way you remember that last name or was it
18 a footballer, really?
19 A. Well, I remembered him by the family name of Bajic because I knew
20 a footballer and I was a passionate supporter myself.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness.
22 Can you tell us what happened on the 16th of January, 1992; if
23 you know?
24 A. On the 16th of January, 1992, mobilisation was conducted,
25 although it was not part of a general call for mobilisation. I know
1 that - I insisted myself, I had two sons, although they were still
2 minors - that conscripts should have a stamp placed in their military
3 booklets because that would mean that they were in a war and be entitled
4 to certain rights arising from their participation in the war. I was
5 aware of that because I had to deal with some very complex situations
6 while I was one of -- of the leaders of the police force.
7 Q. Witness, therefore, what was it that was entered into the
8 military records of all the conscripts in Bosnian Posavina on that
9 particular date?
10 A. Well, there was just a seal and a date affixed to one of the
11 columns there. There was still not a war going on there. The war in
12 Posavina broke out at a later date.
13 Q. Mr. Djukic, was it about this time that larger units were being
14 formed in the area of the 17th Tactical Group; if you know?
15 A. Yes, of course. Military detachments were being formed, and they
16 were strictly units of the JNA. Battalions -- or, rather, detachments
17 were formed.
18 Q. Can you tell us how many of these detachments were there?
19 A. If I recall, initially four of them. The first one was in
20 Obudovac, the second in Kruskovo Polje, the third in Pelagicevo, the
21 fourth in Bosanski Samac. And that was the one that was most prominently
22 Yugoslav by its composition because roughly one-third of the detachment
23 was composed of members of other ethnicities.
24 Q. You mentioned the 1st Detachment --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. I'd like to just note for the
2 record I found this 65 ter summary to be very difficult to understand and
3 difficult to prepare on. And I'd like note that for the past ten
4 pages -- I think now we are getting into an area which seems to fall into
5 the 65 ter summary, but for the past ten page there was literally no
6 notice other than in May 1991 the witness left Zagreb and served as a JNA
7 reserve officer in the Brcko garrison. We had absolutely no information
8 about anything that's been led in the past ten pages.
9 I'd like to just put that on the record.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, any response to that or would you
11 agree with Ms. Marcus?
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,
13 I disagree.
14 The summary stated that the witness would speak to the events in
15 Bosanski Samac in the run-up to the takeover, as well as about all the
16 other events at around this time. And all these issues we have been
17 discussing in the past couple of pages were the circumstances surrounding
18 the takeover of power of Samac in 1992, and this is merely an
19 introduction into these events. That's how I see it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the position of both parties is hereby on the
22 Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Witness, sir, you mentioned the 1st Detachment. Can you tell us
25 what was the area of responsibility of the 1st Detachment?
1 A. Obudovac, Batkusa, and some other small hamlets. There would be
2 a great many if I were to list them here. And they ran along a stretch
3 that had on its opposite side the Croatian forces that had already been
4 equipped an armed.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you know who Andjelko Maslic is?
6 A. I know the gentleman very well, Andjelko Maslic. He was the
7 deputy president of the Presidency of the SFRY, and intellectual who
8 hailed from Bosanski Samac who helped right the books entitled ...
9 Q. Can you just tell us if you know him and, if so, what was the
10 position he occupied in the period we're discussing.
11 A. I know him back from the time when I was -- when he was the
12 secretary of the Presidency of the SFRY. As Yugoslavia broke up, he was
13 retired and he hails from Bosanski Samac.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Do you know if Mr. Maslic helped
15 establish contacts with certain military structures in this period of
17 A. Of course he did. He was in touch with a pensioned general,
18 Pekic, who hailed from Kordun in Croatia. Together with him he provided
19 the necessary assistance and advice, insisting with the competent
20 institutions that the Serbian people in Posavina be protected.
21 Q. Witness, do you know who Blagoje Simic is; and if so what is the
22 position that the person occupied in early 1992?
23 A. I know Blagoje Simic from before. I met with him repeatedly in
24 1991. He was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party. He was the
25 chairman of the Bosanski Samac regional board, as well as for the board
1 of Doboj. This is something that you didn't ask me about. Because I
2 joined the multi-ethnic social democrats, I had many problems that I
3 experienced from the SDS.
4 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know in the spring of 1992, what was the
5 relationship between Blagoje Simic and the leadership of the SDS?
6 A. He was one of the most trusted men among -- for the president of
7 the SDS, Mr. Radoslav Karadzic -- Radovan Karadzic.
8 Q. Can you tell us in a sentence what was the security situation
9 like in 1992 in Posavina?
10 A. Catastrophic, in a word. And I could use up another hundred to
11 describe what it was like.
12 Q. Can you tell us exactly where the village of Sijekovac is
13 located; and did something important happen there in the spring of 1992?
14 A. I think it was the 23rd of March that the regular Croatian forces
15 entered Sijekovac collecting crimes on a mass scale. Several days later
16 they captured Derventa.
17 Q. You say that they were Croatian forces. Where did they come
18 from; if you know?
19 A. Well, I did say earlier on that the Sava divides Slavonski Brod
20 and Bosanski Brod. They came from the direction of Bosanski Brod, and I
21 don't know which parts of Croatia these forces had originally come from.
22 I don't have that sort of information.
23 Q. Witness, what was the situation like in Bosanski Samac proper, in
24 the spring of 1992?
25 A. Bosanski Samac was inhabited by representatives of three
1 ethnicities. The president of the executive committee was one Jovanovic.
2 The vice-president was Izet Izetbegovic. And the coalition of the
3 Muslims and Croats was the dominant one. Otherwise, demographically, the
4 Muslims were the most numerous in the area, and the Serbs were next.
5 Q. Mr. Djukic, was there a staff established of the Muslim forces or
6 the Muslim people in Bosanski Samac in the spring of 1992?
7 A. On the 12th or the 13th of April, Alija Izetbegovic established a
8 TO War Staff that was composed solely of the Muslims and Croats. There
9 wasn't a single Serb in there.
10 Q. Can you repeat the date, please. It's not recorded properly.
11 A. It was the 12th or the 13th of April, 1992.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is the time for our
14 first break today.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break. And we resume at 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for the late start. There was an urgent
19 matter which needed my attention which prevented me from returning in
21 Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Mr. Djukic, before the break you mentioned the TO staff, the war
24 TO staff, that was -- that comprised Croats and Muslims alone. Could you
25 tell us who was at the head of that war-time staff?
1 A. I believe his name was Izet Fitozovic.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness
3 please be shown P221.
4 Q. Now please take a look at the document before you on the screen,
5 on the left-hand side.
6 A. I was correct. But my apologies, his name was Alija, not Izet.
7 Q. Could you please tell us if you recognise the individuals
8 mentioned here as staff members? And could you tell us if you know
9 anything about these people?
10 A. Well, I do know these people. Sulejman Tihic and another person
11 I know very well, but I would appreciate if we could move to private
12 session for that.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please move
14 into private session previously.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 17934-17935 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Mr. Djukic, without mentioning any names, the names that you
23 mentioned a moment ago, please tell us how you know that these
24 individuals were involved in the trafficking -- illicit trafficking of
25 weapons from Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina, the central part of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. How do you know that?
2 A. Well, I have to explain first that I received certain tasks from
3 the security and intelligence organ, the corps security and intelligence
4 organ, and that I had a very high duty in the main security and
5 intelligence organ in the Army of Republika Srpska. So some of the
6 information comes from intercepts, some from direct knowledge, some from
7 citizen complaints, to the effect that police officers would just observe
8 how weapons were being transported by members of Croat or Muslim
9 ethnicity onto trucks with Croatian or Slovene registration plates.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
11 You mentioned the way that these -- this materiel was obtained.
12 Now, can you tell us whether you know if any individuals were in charge
13 of transferring materiel and technical equipment for the SDA and the
14 war-time staff that you spoke about a little earlier?
15 A. The village Prut and all the other villages - and I don't want to
16 waste this Chamber's precious time - but all the villages between Samac
17 and Orasje were Croatian, so there was no way of checking the transport
18 of weapons by individuals across the Sava from Croatia into the Croatian
19 villages in Bosnia where they established some military units and combat
21 Q. Mr. Witness, you said that you knew about the existence of this
22 war-time staff. Now, do you know whether any unit was established by the
23 SDA in Bosanski Samac in the spring of 1992?
24 A. I don't know anything about that.
25 Q. Witness, sir, please tell us who was at the head of the public
1 security station in Bosanski Samac in April 1992?
2 A. It was Vinko Dragicevic. He was a representative of the Croatian
3 side because this was a Muslim/Croat/Serb coalition at the time.
4 Dragan Lukac was the chief of the crime police. Stoko Sekulic was the
5 commander of the public security station, and they were there as
6 representatives of the Serb side.
7 Q. Witness, sir, what was the position of the Serbian Democratic
8 Party in Bosanski Samac? What was their position on the work of the
9 public security station in Bosanski Samac?
10 A. Well, the position of the SDS and the Serb population was the
11 following. Irrespective of the composition and what ethnicity the
12 members were, the public security station was not capable of protecting
13 all the vital aspects and security of people and security of their
15 Q. Witness, sir, do you know whether the -- the SDA organised a
16 citizen group that was supposed to defend the town of Bosanski Samac?
17 A. Well, it was only established later on when we came across some
18 lists, a certain Atizovic or Elezovic went through Samac and the
19 surrounding villages with the so-called Liljani, a small unit, which was
20 called Liljani because it had the patch of the Muslim side -- of the
21 Muslim party at the time which is now renamed into Bosnia party, and they
22 were Lilies.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have the
24 witness shown 65 ter 3751 from the Prosecution list.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, could I invite you again to give a
1 good example to the witness how to make a pause between the one speaking
2 person and the other speaking person.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honour.
4 Thank you.
5 Q. Witness, sir, this is a document that was produced by the TO
6 Staff of Bosanski Samac. And I would like to refer you to -- this
7 document is dated the 13th of April, 1992.
8 Now I would like to show you the second page. Page 2. If you
9 recall, we showed you this document during the proofing. This is a list
10 of six pages containing the names of 212 individuals. Did you have
11 occasion to see this document earlier; or, in other words, did we show
12 you this document during proofing?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Judging by the names that appear on the list, could you tell us
15 what ethnicity the individuals whose names appear on this list of
16 self-organised citizens of Bosanski Samac are, the list that was compiled
17 on the 13th of April, 1992?
18 A. Well, again, as I said, at the head of all of this was
19 Sulejman Tihic. He was the leader. And we can see his name appearing on
20 top -- on the top. And then following his name are Bosnian names, all of
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to
24 tender this document as a Defence exhibit.
25 MS. MARCUS: No objection. Except it seems that the translation
1 is missing a couple of pages. But, obviously, there's no objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, part of the evidence is that all the
5 names are Muslim names. And, under those circumstances, I think,
6 Ms. Marcus, that to have the original names would be good enough, or do
7 you insist on having them transcribed, I would say, rather than
8 translated; although, there is, of course -- now and then there is some
9 explanation, apparently units to which they belong or perhaps addresses.
10 Until now, there's only about names.
11 Do you insist on having it completed?
12 MS. MARCUS: If Your Honours are satisfied with that, I agree
13 with that. Of course, the descriptions, as you say, Your Honour, are not
14 translated but the names are.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now. There is one other -- yes. That is, one
16 name is -- is -- is -- are all the pages missing with names in
17 translation? All of them are missing.
18 Then, Mr. Petrovic, at least the title above the list of names
19 should be translated. Therefore --
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- there's no need to have all the names translated,
22 or at least if no further evidence will be elicited on this matter. But
23 at least the -- the title above the first name on the list should be
24 translated, so we will mark it for identification. The original is then
25 many, many pages, and the English will then be two pages when you have
1 completed that job.
2 Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 3751 shall be assigned Exhibit
4 D762, marked for identification.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And keeps that status until
6 [Overlapping speakers]...
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We will
8 do as ordered by you.
9 Q. Witness, we spoke of the public security station in Bosanski
10 Samac and its activities. You told us what the position of the SDS was
11 in respect of that station in April of 1992.
12 Was it the case that the SDS took a decision of some sort in
13 April of 1992 with regard to the running of the Samac public -- public
14 security station?
15 A. Let me just add that it wasn't just the SDS that was dissatisfied
16 with their work. It was the citizens themselves as well. It was decided
17 that a more efficient and improved service should be set up, both in
18 terms of operations and the provision of services.
19 Q. Witness, did you participate in a meeting which discussed the
20 ways and means of organising the work of the Samac public security
22 A. I did say that I did not enjoy credibility with the SDS. It was
23 through Petar Stevic and Lazo Mrkic, both of whom were friends of mine,
24 and Stevic was also a member of the service, we were told that in the
25 building of Agroposavina on the 12th of April, I should help build up an
1 organisation equipped with all the required materiel and assets that a
2 public security station should have.
3 Q. Mr. Djukic, can you tell us who referred you to that meeting?
4 A. Nobody did. I went to that meeting as a person who was familiar
5 with the way a public security station should be organised and run.
6 Admittedly, I did tell Commander Nikolic that I would attend the meeting.
7 He told me, I will not interfere with the business of the police and the
8 civilian authorities.
9 Q. Did there come a time when you learnt that certain volunteers had
10 arrived in Bosanski Samac?
11 A. Yes. In fact, it was at this very meeting that I learnt it.
12 Stevan Todorovic, also known as Steve, and I would style him the
13 monstrum, or the monster. We heard that he had 20 man who landed in the
14 village of Batkusa by helicopter in the area of responsibility of the
15 1st Detachment.
16 Q. Can you tell us whose helicopter it was that these people
17 disembarked from in the village of Batkusa?
18 A. I can't. Had I seen the helicopter, I would have been able to
19 tell you. I can only tell you that that sort of helicopter that could
20 carry as men was in the possession of only the JNA. I think it was the
21 Knin Corps which, at the time, was still headed by General - perhaps
22 Colonel - Mladic.
23 Q. Did you learn under whose command it was that this group of
24 volunteers came, if they came under any command upon their arrival in
1 A. The arrival of this group of volunteers did cause some discomfort
2 to the town itself, an uneasiness and reservation on the part of the
3 inhabitants because Obudovac, Donji Zabari, and Pelagicevo had many
4 capable trained young money who had done their military service.
5 Therefore, Commander Stevan Nikolic was asked to account for the presence
6 of these volunteers and to say who it was who needed them in the area.
7 Q. Can you tell us, did Stevan Nikolic give any sort of explanation
8 and did you learn under whose command they were?
9 A. Stevan Nikolic asked to be given a day or two until such time as
10 his officers would get in touch with them in person to find out who they
11 were and who they would be working for, if they were there to chase
12 individuals away from the area, or to protect the area, or something
13 quite different.
14 Q. Two or three days later, what was the conclusion that the
15 officers of Stevan Nikolic arrived at?
16 A. Well, these individuals, conscripts, volunteers - what should I
17 call them? - all agreed that they would voluntarily join the JNA and be
18 resubordinated to the detachments under the 17th Tactical Group. They
19 also agreed that they would perform the tasks given conscientiously.
20 Some joined the 1st Detachment, others the 2nd, depending on their
21 personal abilities, earlier experience, and skills.
22 Q. Mr. Djukic, who it was who took over the public security station
23 in Samac, and when?
24 A. But of course. That was the day of the Bosanski Samac
25 municipality. In the night between the 16th and the 17th of April, it
1 was Todorovic who took over; Stevo Todorovic, also known as Steve.
2 He organised matters the way that I had envisaged, at least in
3 terms of numbers. Stevic was the one who made the organigram, and he
4 said that all those who accepted the SDS would be on the police force.
5 He even said that, in that case, I would not be allowed on because I did
6 not support the SDS. But I wasn't interested in that to begin with.
7 Q. Witness, sir, what sort of steps did Colonel Nikolic take that
8 night between the 16th and the 17th of April?
9 A. Well, there were different accounts, including those from the
10 JNA, as to what was happening in the station that night. In my personal
11 view, based on my experience, it was a tactical measure, an extensive
12 raid with a view to seizing weapons from citizens who had great amounts
13 of both military and hunting weapons in their possession.
14 Colonel Nikolic was not kept abreast of these things. However,
15 when he got word of it on the morning of the 17th, he called into --
16 in -- into the centre two armoured vehicles to come in as a show of
17 force. He ordered the command of the detachment that they should come
18 out to the Bosna river-bank right away since the Croatian village of Prut
19 was already organised, under arms, and did not recognise the authorities
20 in Samac. They were linked in terms of organisation and territory to the
21 municipality of Odzak. On the other hand, the partially damaged bridge
22 across the Sava allowed the Croats to carry out an incursion into
23 Bosanski Samac.
24 Q. Witness, can we look at D18, please.
25 Witness, this is a report sent to the General Staff of the SFRY
1 armed forces on the 17th of April.
2 It was sent out from the command of the 2nd Military District.
3 It is a report relating to the events in Samac.
4 In the middle of the page it reads:
5 "The activities with a view to seizing the vital institutions,
6 they were carried out with the participation of the forces of the
7 Tactical Group 17, units of the Serbian Territorial Defence, and the
9 Can you tell us what sort of the police force is referred to
11 A. Well, the active police force of the public security station in
12 Bosanski Samac. Quite understandably, there was the participation of the
13 17th Tactical Group as well because there was a detachment of 55 men
14 within it.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. You mentioned the 4th Detachment, which
16 included Simo Zaric, among others. Do you know if there were members of
17 other ethnicities in that detachment, in addition to the Serbs?
18 A. In the leadership of the staff itself, there were two Muslims and
19 one Croat. There were the brothers Topcagic and one Vukovic. Now the
20 unit, there were admittedly only a handful of Croats but there were
21 around 100 Muslims.
22 Q. Witness, do you know these individuals who were members of the
23 4th Detachment? How were they characterised by the War Staff of the SDA
24 and the SDA itself in Bosanski Samac?
25 A. They were labelled as national traitors. They were suspected of
1 preparing an attack on Bosanski Samac. I'm sorry if I have to expand on
2 this, but we had a number of intercepts, and we received information from
3 General Kukanjac to the effect that occupation was being prepared, and
4 Kukanjac said that this was the only useful and helpful thing he did in
5 his life.
6 Now, for these individuals, they were called either ethnic or
7 national traitors; something to that effect.
8 Q. Please look at P219.
9 It is a proclamation entitled: "The List of Local Traitors" or
10 "Domestic Traitors." The first one on the list is Fadil Topcagic. Do
11 you know him?
12 A. Yes, of course. He was one of the finest explosive specialists.
13 And --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the last part of
15 his answer.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was one of the leaders of the
17 detachment, an assistant.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- part of your last answer was not
19 understood by the interpreters.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Something was ordered but then it --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
23 THE INTERPRETER: -- it was given up on as an idea.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please resume. You said when asked about
1 "Yes, of course. He was one of the finest explosive specialists
2 and ..."
3 Could you repeat what you then said?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, we were in a position to
5 work on a mission together but the command decided that we should abort
6 the mission. I had high regard for him as an excellent officer, and I
7 said that he was Commander Antic's assistant.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness --
11 MR. JORDASH: May Mr. Stanisic be excused for the moment.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And we continue meanwhile.
15 Yes, please proceed.
16 [The accused Stanisic withdrew]
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Witness, you mentioned an intercept involving Kukanjac. What
19 were the contents of the intercept and how did you come by it?
20 A. It was a dispatch, a document that I didn't receive. It was
21 encoded and then decoded in the command of Commander Nikolic, and he
22 shared this information with his officers, including myself.
23 Q. Could you kindly tell us what the dispatch said, the one that
24 Nikolic told you about and that he had received from General Kukanjac?
25 A. There was severe criticism there, that there was poor -- that the
1 defence of Samac was poorly organised, that the Croatian forces were
2 preparing themselves, and that we should expect them to seize the area
3 and commit massacre against the people. And he judged that the 17th
4 Tactical Group was incapable of the job, of doing the job.
5 Q. Witness, you said that the volunteers who had arrived Batkusa
6 placed themselves under the command of the 1st Detachment and in parts of
7 the 2nd Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group. Do you know if at some
8 point an attack was planned and carried out against Modrica?
9 A. It was the 17th Tactical Group that mounted an attack on Modrica.
10 As an officer for intelligence and security, I was not duty-bound to
11 participate in combat, nor did I want to. There was an order to that
12 effect, the area was successfully captured, and the tactical group moved
13 into this ethnically mixed town of Modrica as well as into certain
15 I don't know who ordered - it was the superior command, at any
16 rate - that the units of the tactical group should withdraw so that the
17 Serbian forces had to recapture the area, that's to say, Modrica, again.
18 And as the tactical group first moved in, it didn't come across any
19 significant resistance.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Petrovic please repeat the number of
21 the document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number of the document,
23 Mr. Petrovic.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. P1413.
25 Q. Witness, have a look at the first paragraph, please.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 1 of
2 the document, please.
3 Thank you.
4 Can the witness look at the first paragraph of the document.
5 Q. Can you tell us, based on the localities mentioned here - if you
6 know them, of course - if this has to do with the first or some other
7 attack on Modrica? And look at the date. It's the 7th of May, 1992.
8 Just a moment, please.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can this please be enlarged for
10 the witness so that he can read the text.
11 Q. Do you want me to read it for you?
12 A. Yes, please.
13 Q. This is a document from the command of the 17th Tactical Group
14 dated the 7th of May, 1992, in Pelagicevo, to Lugar command. An order
15 for an attack. And it says: "I have decided ..."
16 Under 1:
17 "In order to create favourable conditions for Modrica units, to
18 enable them to continue their combat and capture the town of Modrica,
19 link up with the units of the 17th Tactical Group that had been cut off
20 in the area of the villages of Donji Skugric and Tolisa, carry out an
21 all-out attack along the axis of Milosevac village-Garevac
22 village-Modrica and Kornica village-Cardak village-Pustara, agricultural
23 combine -- or agricultural co-operative."
24 Could you tell us which Modrica attack does this refer to? You
25 mentioned some.
1 A. Well, obviously this is the first attack on Modrica.
2 Stevan Nikolic, on orders from the General Staff, left Posavina on 19th
3 of May. Therefore, the second attack and the takeover of Modrica was
4 carried out by the newly established units of the VRS after his
5 withdrawal from Bosnia.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: After the JNA
7 withdrew from Bosnia.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Witness, under number 2 we see that there are tasks assigned
10 to the units and it says that the north column composed of the Lugar
11 Group; the central column, under 2, Column Commander Captain Grbic; and
12 under 3, the southern column --
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Which, Your Honours, is on the
14 next page in English.
15 Q. The column commander is Crni.
16 Now, looking at this, do you know -- these columns that are
17 mentioned in this order, what -- which group did they belong to?
18 A. Well, they were part of the 17th Tactical Group, but I can't tell
19 you exactly by platoon or detachment who belonged to what or where. But
20 I can just tell that you these are volunteers, Lugar and Djordjevic,
21 whereas in the central part, that person there is an active-duty officer.
22 Q. When you say in the central part, whom are you referring to? Do
23 you mean the second column?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you, Witness, sir.
1 Witness, sir, you mentioned that at the meeting in Agroposavina,
2 you learned of the arrival of these volunteers. Can you tell us, do you
3 know whether there was any clash between Simo Zaric and Colonel Nikolic
4 because of these volunteers who had arrived in Batkusa area?
5 A. Well, I couldn't really accept that. You can't say that there
6 can be a conflict between a colonel and a sergeant. There can be a
7 dialogue, a lot polemics. Simo considered the volunteers would --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness.
9 A. -- members of the platoon who are not Serbs. Although there were
10 other reasons too, Simo was very ambitious and he would probably be
11 satisfied --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you -- first of all, again,
13 that you would slow down. But to resume your previous answer, you said.
14 "Well, I couldn't really accept that. You can't say there could
15 be a conflict between a colonel and ..."
16 Could you resume your answer from there, because the interpreters
17 could not understand you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise yet again.
19 There were debates and there was protest by Simo Zaric. He told
20 Nikolic that Posavina had a sufficient number of young, brave, and
21 capable men, that they did not need volunteers because members of his
22 detachment who were Muslims or Croats would leave the detachment and the
23 detachment would no longer be multi-ethnic.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, sir, could you tell us what Nikolic replied when he
1 complained in this manner?
2 A. Well, Nikolic said that on the 28th of February, Croatian
3 paramilitary units crossed over into Bosanski Brod, that the Croatian
4 villages were full of combat groups, that there was some person there who
5 was bringing in Liljani into Bosanski Samac, that he was disturbed by 20
6 Serbs from Serbia, that the government of Serbia, in a decree of 1992,
7 proclaimed that volunteers could report to fight.
8 [The accused Stanisic entered court]
9 Q. Mr. Witness, could you tell us whether at some point you met a
10 person called Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli?
11 A. Yes. I met that person. A Chetnik duke.
12 Q. Can you tell us where you met him and under what circumstances?
13 A. I met him in Obudovac village, where my mother came from, and I
14 had a friend there, Niko Bojic, who sold petrol products. He told me, he
15 bragged that a very capable officer had come, and he took me to a room
16 which was the headquarters of the 1st Battalion.
17 I was introduced to that person. He showed [realtime transcript
18 read in error "told"] me a Chetnik booklet number 2. He asked me whether
19 I knew who had -- who was the owner of the Chetnik booklet number 1, and
20 I said I didn't, and it wasn't my flavour, as it were, that these people
21 had been conquered, and if we do have to fight, then we should keep the
22 profile of Serb officers.
23 Q. Did he tell you who was the bearer of that Chetnik booklet,
24 booklet number 1?
25 A. Certainly. He said it was Duke Seselj. And in view of my
1 position and my ideology and everything I knew from 1978 and onwards, he
2 was one of the leading enemies of the Socialist Federal Republic of
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, on page 48,
5 line 16 of the transcript, it says, "He told me," and I believe it should
6 read, "He showed me."
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, Mr. Petrovic, as always we do not fill in
8 what it should be but we could verify whether "he told me" is right.
9 You told us about Niko Bojic who sold petrol products. And then
10 what did you then say? It now reads: "He told me, I bragged that a very
11 capable officer had come and he took me to a room which was the
12 headquarters of the 1st Battalion."
13 The part which reads, "He told me," is that accurate or is that a
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify it.
16 Yes, he had a petrol station. He was the owner of a petrol
17 station. He did not deal in petrol products illegally. He was an
18 acquaintance and he worked in Zupanja.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I was not asking you to further explain to us but
20 just whether the words which we find on our transcript, "He told me,"
21 whether that's perhaps wrong and should be something else.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He told me that a very
23 capable officer had arrived in Obudovac and that he wanted to introduce
24 me to him.
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
1 I had a wrong line, as a matter of fact, where I sought the
3 Did he tell you about the Chetnik booklet number 2 or did he show
4 that to you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He showed it to me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Mr. Petrovic, I made a mistake. You referred me to line 16,
8 whereas I started reading at line 13 where the words "he told me" also
9 appear, but I didn't listen well enough to you.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness, sir, in addition to this one meeting at your friend's
13 place in Obudovac, did you have any other occasion to talk to Srecko
14 Radovanovic aka Debeli?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Could you tell us when and in what circumstances?
17 A. After Colonel Nikolic left the area, because my elder son had
18 been injured, my younger son was still there, and my wife was a refugee,
19 I myself tried to leave Posavina. In the meantime, the new commander of
20 the Tactical Group - at that time already a brigade - was appointed,
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Djordjevic, who was a local man, and his successor
22 Dragan Djordjevic, Crni; whereas, Srecko was appointed chief. I told him
23 how threatened my village was. It was -- we were expecting to be
24 attacked, and the structure of our fighting force was very bad. There
25 were men between 70 -- to 70 years old. I asked him to provide some
1 reinforcement and I proposed an operation, that we should try and cut off
2 a -- an operation -- or, rather, an action by the Croatian side --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
4 last portion of his answer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last portion of your answer.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To cut off the communication
7 between the Bosanska, Bijelo, and Dubrava villages, the road, which was
8 used by forces that intended to take up positions, Croatian and Muslim
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed?
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Yes, please do so.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Q. Witness, the meeting you had with Radovanovic, do you remember
14 what was said? What did he say? What did you say to him? Can you
15 recall thank conversation?
16 A. Yes, I can. I can recall the conversation.
17 He said that they had to fight really hard to be appointed to
18 those duties, that they were the first people - members of the brigade -
19 who had not graduated from the Military Academy of the Yugoslav army. He
20 told me that it was a great pity that I was on the wrong side, that I was
21 not a member of the SDS. And only after I explained to him who I was and
22 that I had passed with my units without any losses, he told me that he
23 had been a police non-commissioned officer, that he was dismissed from
24 the police, that he had a very negative view of us, people who still
25 supported Tito's ideology, Milosevic's ideology, and that of the
1 Communist party of Yugoslavia. And he asked me once again to try and
2 change my position. And he even said that if I were to join this radical
3 party that I might even be conferred a rank there.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, line -- page 51,
5 line 16, a party is mentioned there which is -- which was incorrectly
6 interpreted. So I propose that we ask the witness to clarify.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, sir, Radovanovic told you that you took the wrong side,
10 that you weren't a member of what party?
11 A. The Serbian Radical Party, which had a Chetnik wing, a military
12 arm, as it were.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness. During these encounters of yours, did Srecko
14 Radovanovic, Debeli, mention that he had certain links with the state
15 security service of the Republic of Serbia?
16 A. Quite the contrary. He said that he was abhorred by the likes of
17 me and others who refused to accept the ideas promoted by Seselj.
18 Q. Witness, sir, you mentioned an individual by the name of Crni,
19 Dragoljub Djordjevic, Crni. Can you tell us did you have occasion to
20 meet with him?
21 A. Yes. I knew of him as Dragan. This is the first time I hear of
22 him as Dragoljub. If that is the individual from Vranje, the same Crni,
23 then that is him. He was present in Donji Zabari at that meeting where
24 we were putting together the organisation and the staffing table and the
25 wherewithal for the public security station in Bosanski Samac.
1 Q. Witness, were you able to find out the political affiliation of
2 this person, Crni, Dragan Djordjevic?
3 A. Well, I heard that the SDS organisation in Pelagicevo was far
4 more progressive and organised than the one in Samac. They were in touch
5 with certain structures asking that I become the commander of the defence
6 of Posavina, something that I would never agree to. I do have special
7 knowledge of certain issues but not the skill of commanding a large body
8 of men. So Djordjevic would be showing the membership card of the
9 Serbian Radical Party when dealing with the local population.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again ask you, pauses between question and
11 answer, and answer and question, and a slower speed of speech.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.
13 Q. Witness, did you yourself have an opportunity to speak with
14 Djordjevic, aka Crni, about his political affiliation?
15 A. Well, you asked me to give you brief answers. Let me say that
16 when I came to see Debeli, I asked that I be announced to the commander
17 because that was the custom. I came to see Dragan Djordjevic, Crni. I
18 addressed him as a proper soldier, and he told me, You are in no way
19 bound to stand before me as a soldier would.
20 I said that I needed his assistance for Cerik because we didn't
21 have the necessary men or equipment. He said that he would send the
22 intervention battalion of Pelagicevo to me. They were 40-strong,
23 well-armed, and trained men --
24 Q. Sorry. I'm asking you about the political affiliation of
25 Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, if that's what you can tell us. Did you have
1 any personal knowledge of that and, if so, what sort of knowledge?
2 A. Well, if you will allow me to I will tell you.
3 After this formal part of the encounter, we started chatting
4 about where we were from and who we were, and then he said that he was a
5 member of the radical party. He showed me his membership card. To be
6 frank, I didn't stop to read it. It would not have been of any interest
7 to me. He said that he had some information about me and that he was
8 more than glad to accept me as his collaborator and that I was yet to
9 benefit from my acquaintance with him.
10 Q. Mr. Djukic, you said that at some point the JNA officers were
11 withdrawn from Bosnia. When was that?
12 A. On the 19th of May. That was the order. Admittedly, some of
13 them left on the 20th. Only the officers who had been born in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina were allowed to stay.
15 Q. What was the impact of the departure of the JNA officers on the
16 general situation in Samac?
17 A. There was strong dissatisfaction expressed towards Yugoslavia and
18 the leadership. There were citizens who left the area in protest,
19 especially those in -- living in the border areas opposite Croats or
20 Serbs -- Croats or Muslims.
21 Q. Did there come a time when the 17th Tactical Group was reformed
22 into a different unit?
23 A. Yes. It became the 2nd Bosnian Brigade, headquartered in
25 THE INTERPRETER: The 2nd Posavina Brigade, interpreter's
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You said that at some point Djordjevic, aka Crni, was appointed
4 the commander of the brigade. Can you tell us who pointed him to that
6 A. It was Blagoje Simic, with the help of the top SDS leadership.
7 Q. Do you know if the command of the East Bosnian Corps had any role
8 to play in this appointment?
9 A. Yes. Colonel Dencic, Ile Drincic -- Or Drncic [phoen] stayed
10 there -- overstayed his welcome there, and I suppose that was why he was
12 Q. What sort of role did Dencic play in this appointment?
13 A. Since amid the massacre, the army left Tuzla, he was the
14 commander of the East Bosnian Corps, and it had not yet been fully
15 organised and it was headquartered in Bijeljina.
16 Q. Can you please focus on the appointment of Djordjevic, Crni. Do
17 you or do you not know if Dencic had a role to play in that appointment?
18 A. Yes, he did.
19 Q. Would you kindly tell us what sort of role he had, if you know?
20 A. Well, he agreed to a nomination from the SDS. It would not have
21 come through without that nomination.
22 Q. Can you tell us how you came to know about this?
23 A. It's quite simple. I was in communication with the security
24 officers in the East Bosnia Corps. Later on my chief, Dusan Tanaskovic,
25 chief of security of the corps, was also someone I was in touch with.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I
2 believe that I have gone five minutes into our break already. Or am I
3 wrong in my calculations?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we had a bit of a late start. So, to that
5 extent, you are right and wrong, because we're here now for 70 minutes.
6 But it might be a good time to take a break.
7 We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I received information during the break
11 that during the session before the break that Mr. Stanisic at times
12 didn't feel that well. He was seen by the doctor. I do understand that
13 the doctor does not oppose against continuing but invited me to be very
14 careful that if Mr. Stanisic would again feel not well where, as the
15 doctor said, he would very much like to continue at this moment, that if
16 circumstances are such that he would prefer not to continue, that he
17 addresses us immediately.
18 I do understand that it may be related to the new medication that
19 started yesterday.
20 MR. JORDASH: Yes. Everything you've said is my understanding of
21 the situation.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we can continue in this understanding.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Djukic, earlier today you spoke about your links with the JNA
25 garrison in Brcko. You mentioned Officer Petrovic. You mentioned an
1 officer in closed session. And can you please tell us whether, other
2 than these two JNA officers, you had contacts with any other Brcko
3 garrison officers at that time?
4 A. Yes, with Captain Mitric. I was asked by Petrovic to have
5 negotiations with the Croats, specifically with Ivica Samtovac [phoen], a
6 reserve major of the Yugoslav People's Army who joined the Croatian
7 forces. Our villages Vukvik [phoen], Pukovac [phoen], and others with
8 about 3.000 citizens were in a blockade and these people needed help, and
9 so he was helping us with the sick people, with pregnant women and so on.
10 I was conducting these negotiations were actually quite correct.
11 Q. Can you please tell us in which service of the Brcko garrison did
12 this captain work?
13 A. He worked in the intelligence and security organ.
14 Q. Mr. Djukic, did you at any point in time meet a person called
15 Zika Ivanovic in Brcko?
16 A. I did meet Zika Crnogorac.
17 Q. Are you able help us? Zika Crnogorac. Is that his nickname,
18 Crnogorac? And is that his -- and is his last name Ivanovic,
19 Zika Ivanovic?
20 A. Yes, that is something that I would learn later.
21 Q. And are you able to tell us where you met Zika Crnogorac?
22 A. One time I went to see Captain Mitric so that we would go to the
23 line of separation between Grbavica and Donji Rahici where we were
24 supposed to have a meeting at a private house with Mr. Samtovac in front
25 of the office of the boss who had already gone to Belgrade. I was asked
1 to go to Brcko. When I came to the garrison in order to get into
2 Mr. Petrovic's office, always there was a reserve officer --
3 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I think there
4 there was --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
6 MS. MARCUS: -- something that Mr. Petrovic said and I got a
7 little confused myself. I think Mr. Petrovic said something and it
8 wasn't recorded.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's all the result of a lack of control over the
10 speed of speech.
11 May I take it that you had tried to inspire the witness to slow
12 down. Is that -- yes.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That does not -- that does not come as a surprise.
15 Witness, your evidence is important for us, so, therefore, allow
16 us to understand it. And the only way for us to understand it and to
17 look at it again after you have now given your testimony is that reading
18 the transcript. But you really should slow down in order to avoid that
19 your evidence will be lost due to lack of -- well, I wouldn't call it
20 discipline, but at least a lack of control over the way in which you
21 present your answers.
22 Mr. Petrovic, I leave it to you where you want to resume. And if
23 it continues this way, I, although reluctantly, will introduce the
24 traffic agent system, which is I just stop anyone to start speaking
25 unless I've given a sign. I would rather not do it, but, if need be, I
2 Mr. Petrovic, you may resume your question.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Djukic, you told us that at one point in time you met Zika
5 Crnogorac, that you had gone to see officer Petrovic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right. Can you please repeat your whole answer to my
8 question when and how did you meet Zika Crnogorac?
9 A. I was summoned to the Brcko garrison to the intelligence and
10 security organ. At Captain Petrovic's office, who had gone as an active
11 officer to Belgrade, the said Mitric was working at the time. In front
12 of his office, there was a person that I did not know who was sitting at
13 the desk in front of the office, and there were two young men in front of
14 him in dark uniforms. They were holding Scorpions and they had their
15 fingers on the trigger.
16 I said that I was going to see Mitric, to which they did not
17 react at all, and I went. Captain Mitric explained to me that
18 Zika Crnogorac with two or three men, elite members according to him, was
19 at the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Brcko and that he
20 had already done some work at the secretariat by confiscating robbed or
21 looted property. Just that much.
22 Q. Mr. Djukic, and did you find out if Zika Crnogorac arrived before
23 Brcko was taken, during the capture of it, or after it had been captured
24 by the Serbian forces; do you know which?
25 A. He came later once the late Savic left; Savic, aka Mauzer.
1 Q. Did I understand you correctly as having said that he arrived
2 after Brcko was captured?
3 A. Yes, you understood me correctly.
4 Q. Are you able to tell us if you know if there was some sort of
5 agreement between the Brcko War Presidency in view of the fact that you
6 mentioned that Zika was in the War Presidency of the town of Brcko?
7 A. I do know this, but this is something that I found out later once
8 I took over permanent duties in the intelligence and security organ in
9 the Bijeljina Corps. We were given the assignment of checking the work
10 of Djordje Ristanic, the president of the Brcko Crisis Staff, and it was
11 then along with the other documents indicating to some delinquencies that
12 we found some sort of contract with a unit that was supposed to control
13 the entrance and exits from Brcko. We did not continue our processing
14 because the political structures asserted to the command that if we
15 continue to work to see whether there were any violations by Ristanic we
16 would cause dissatisfaction in town.
17 Q. Witness, sir, did you hear anything about Zika Crnogorac's
18 behaviour in Brcko at this time that we're talking about?
19 A. Yes, I did hear. Yes, I did hear of that. My cousin, Obren
20 Petrovic, told me that Zika, with another three men, came to the
21 secretariat asking to look at the files of more expensive luxury cars and
22 some other items, which had been illegally taken from well-off Muslim
23 houses in the Buric Brdo area of Brcko which was called the Dedinje of
25 Q. First of all, this cousin of yours, can you please tell us which
1 structure he worked in and how did he assess Zika's engagement, positive
2 or negative? What was his position on that in the conversation?
3 A. Well, my cousin is a teacher and he was mobilised in the reserve
4 forces. He was desperate because of the crimes and the looting of
5 property from non-Serb citizens because he had grown up with Muslims and
6 Croats, and he felt that Zika was correct and that ...
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the end of the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
10 answer. You said your cousin was desperate because the crimes and the
11 looting of property from non-Serb citizens, because he had grown up with
12 Muslims and Croats, and he felt that Zika was ...
13 Could you please repeat what you then said?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was acting properly.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And do you know if Zika arrested some of those people who were
17 committing crimes against Muslims and Croats in Brcko?
18 A. Yes, he did make arrests, with the remark that these people who
19 were being taken into custody were being taken into custody unlawfully.
20 Q. And do you know if Zika had any conflicts with Ristanic?
21 A. Yes, I know about that but I don't know any details.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, part of one of the previous questions
23 is not perfectly clear to me.
24 You said Zika came to the secretariat and asked for files of
25 expensive cars. For what purpose did he want to have a look at those
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had been stolen. They
3 disappeared from the parking lot, or, better said, from the courtyard of
4 the secretariat; these expensive vehicles that had been temporarily
5 seized from certain persons. Better said, abandoned vehicles of Croats
6 and Muslims who, out of fear, had escaped from Brcko, or were possibly
7 taken to Luka.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you know what this then resulted?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later, certain investigations were
10 conducted, cases were processed so that those files or cases would appear
11 before this International Tribunal, but only two such cases actually made
12 it here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So the purpose was to investigate and to prosecute
14 those who had stolen those vehicles; is that correctly understood?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did understand that correctly.
16 And when I finish my testimony here, I have an appointment for an
17 interview with Prosecutor Mujkanovic in Brcko on the topic of war crimes,
18 even though I had given my information to international representatives
19 about grave violations of international laws of war and customs of war,
20 in Brcko.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. You mentioned that two of those perpetrators had been tried
24 before this Tribunal. Can you tell us who that was?
25 A. Adolf Jelisic, Goran, and Ranko Cesinic. And this is just a
1 coincidental sample.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness.
3 Do you know whether in these attempts by Zika Crnogorac to bring
4 some law and order, whether he also engaged some local people there?
5 A. Yes. There was a group from the Brcko Radnicki settlement, or
6 labourer settlement, Grcici [phoen]. And even a nephew of mine who used
7 to be a police officer in Baranja, even he was a member of that units for
8 a while.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness
10 please be shown P1432. And could we have the first pages in both
11 versions, please.
12 Q. Witness, I will read it out to you. This is an interim report of
13 the command of the Eastern Bosnian Corps from its intelligence organ.
14 It's dated 29th September, 1992, and I will just read out the portion to
15 you, the last sentence of the first large -- first big paragraph on page
16 1, where it says:
17 "The work and actions are documented and they had been --
18 Zika Ivanovic, aka Crnogorac, prepared and analysed documentation on the
19 work on the actions, and we believe that part of the documentation is at
20 the Brcko police station."
21 Could you please expand a bit? What kind of documents or
22 documentation is this a reference to? And how do you read this portion
23 of the report?
24 A. I believe this is a report that was submitted by my colleague,
25 Captain Cuturic, an active-duty JNA officer who was temporarily in
1 Bijeljina because he was -- he was born in Bijeljina. And if we can just
2 take a look and see whether there is his signature there. That is
3 Captain Cuturic, aka Sorica [phoen].
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we see the last
5 page of this document in both versions, please.
6 Q. Mr. Djukic, this is -- the signatory is the chief of the
7 intelligence organ, Captain First Class Simeon Cuturic. Is that person
8 the person that you were referring to?
9 A. Yes. But it's possible that this was an error. He was
10 temporarily chief there -- or, rather, acting chief, and when I came
11 there, it was a major who was in that position. Now as for Cuturic, I
12 knew him and I even had seen this report when I returned after being
13 treated in Banja Koviljaca.
14 Q. Could you tell us -- could you tell us, since you had occasion to
15 see this report earlier, the documentation mentioned there that had been
16 prepared by Zika, what was that a reference to? What did those documents
17 refer to?
18 A. They referred to Article 104 from the penal code of the SFRY that
19 dealt with crimes of killings or murder, theft of property that was not
20 requisitioned and used for military purposes, and so on.
21 Now two Kaurinovic brothers from the Brcko SUP, who were very
22 honest and decent criminal officers, they, too, told me about these
23 crimes and the documentation, and they assisted him in preparing it.
24 Q. You say they assisted him. Whom do you mean? Whom did the
25 Kaurinovic help?
1 A. They helped Zika. There was a form of co-operation between them
2 in this respect.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness, sir. Tell us, please, were you wounded at
4 some point in time; and when was that?
5 A. Yes. I was wounded from the left bank of the Sava, in
6 municipality of Zupanja, on the 18th of August at 10.15. And I had
7 difficulties, as I was sitting here, so I had to apologise. I have
8 difficulties getting up from the chair. I have problems in my left knee.
9 So I was treated until the 17th of November, at which time I was assigned
10 to the corps.
11 Q. Could you just tell us the year, please. You said 18th of
12 August through 17th of November of what year?
13 A. Well, 1992. I'm sorry, I was talking about 1992, so I just --
14 this was implicit.
15 Q. Could you please tell us this: "You mentioned until I was
16 assigned to the corps," which corps was this?
17 A. The East Bosnia Corps, which was headquartered in Bijeljina.
18 Q. Mr. Djukic, did anyone visit you while you were hospitalised and
19 being treated for the wounds -- for the wounding in August?
20 A. Well, I had already -- almost recovered, and I was working at the
21 Corp. I was supposed to move -- to be transferred to Han Pijesak to the
22 main headquarters. However, a fragment remained in my leg and I had to
23 go to the hospital to have it removed. This was in February 1993, when
24 the shrapnel fragment was removed.
25 I received a visit from -- by a minister from the Republic of
1 Serbian Krajina, Mr. Milan Martic, and inspector Radovan Kostic, aka
3 Q. On that occasion did Martic make any officers?
4 A. Yes. He explained to me that the situation was very difficult
5 within his ministry. He told me that there were a lot of problems and
6 clashes of various departments, and he felt that I would be able to
7 consolidate the situation there, and he said that, if necessary, he would
8 take this up with President Karadzic.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, after that conversation, did you -- were you
10 assigned to some position within the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
11 A. Yes. By approval of the new commander in Bijeljina,
12 Colonel Petrija [phoen] Koljevic. I was appointed as chief inspector of
13 police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. It would take too long if I
14 were to describe all the conditions for that.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Or what the
16 circumstances were.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Djukic, could you tell us -- could you tell
19 us what -- what was your job? What was your ambit of work?
20 A. Well, all the work that had to do with public security; in other
21 words, crime, public law and order, traffic, road traffic, controls and
22 checks on the river, the Danube river, and everything else. It would
23 take too long to list them all.
24 Q. Mr. Djukic, when did you take up this post in the Republic of
25 Serbian Krajina?
1 A. The 15th of March, 1993.
2 Q. Mr. Djukic, while you were in this post, can you tell us where
3 you were headquartered?
4 A. The Republic of the Serbian Krajina had part of its ministry in
5 Vukovar. It was a detached department. I was in the Radnicki Dom in
6 Borovo settlement near Vukovar.
7 THE INTERPRETER: In Borovo Selo, interpreter's correction.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While you were in eastern Slavonia, did you have any work-related
10 matters with Ilok, the town of Ilok?
11 A. Well, not just Ilok. I have to clarify. I was supposed to
12 improve the way the police worked and I had to inspect all organisational
13 unit, inspect their work, including the department in Drnis.
14 Q. At some point in time were you assigned a task that involved
15 Ilok, when was it, and who assigned it to you?
16 A. Well, I only received a telegram from the ministry that I should
17 cancel all my other planned activities, that there were serious
18 difficulties, and that I would soon receive a special unit of the
19 Republic of the Serbian Krajina, its corps members, headed by
20 Colonel Krsto Zarkovic.
21 Q. Can you tell us when this was and whether you've learned what
22 those planned activities were regarding Ilok?
23 A. Well, this was around the 15th of January, 1994. We were briefed
24 on what the problems were, and we developed or drafted the activities
25 ourselves. At the RSK ministry, there was a working group organised.
1 Zarko --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name.
3 A. -- and me were there, and since this had to do with crime in the
4 area between Backa and Ilok --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Zarko who?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was Krsto Zarkovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 17973-17978 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 I need a couple of minutes, Mr. Petrovic, at the end of the day.
14 Unless you have one or two questions which would conclude your
15 examination for today, perhaps we'd already excuse the witness.
16 Could you give us an indication as to how much time you would
17 still need tomorrow?
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need another
19 half-hour tomorrow. Perhaps I could put two more questions now to round
20 off a topic that I've started.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you limit it to two questions, because,
22 otherwise, I'm in trouble with those assisting us.
23 Two questions, Mr. Petrovic.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Mr. Djukic, you said that they were part of the Slavonia Baranja
1 Corps. Do you know who members of this battalion, the Skorpions received
2 their orders from?
3 A. On certain issues, from General Loncar or the officer authorised
4 by him; on the issue of providing security for the oil plant, from the
5 director of the oil company; and on some other specific issues, from
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was just that one
8 question. I thank you, and I will resume my examination tomorrow.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
11 Mr. Djukic, we will soon adjourn for the day. Could you please
12 keep your earphones on for a second.
13 Yes. Yes, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak
14 with anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your
15 testimony, whether that is the testimony you've given today, or whether
16 that is testimony still to be given tomorrow and/or on Thursday.
17 Is that clear to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is clear. I apologise for
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We do not give speeding tickets here, but it's
21 appreciated that you are aware of the problem. We'd like to see you back
22 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom. You may follow the
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Very briefly, on the basis of informal
1 communications, the Chamber learned that Witness DFS-016 has -- will not
2 be called by the Simatovic Defence. This was due to new disclosure. If
3 it was late disclosure, the Rules impose a duty to disclose the
4 information to the Chamber as well. I'd leave it to some extent to the
5 parties, especially if it's inculpatory evidence contained in that
6 disclosure then I would not insist on it at this very moment. Perhaps
7 you could discuss it with the Simatovic Defence.
8 At the same time, the Simatovic Defence heavily relied on this
9 disclosure for the reasons why they couldn't called Witness DFS-016,
10 which means that it has an impact on the proceedings.
11 I leave that for the time being.
12 As far as DFS-010 is concerned, an application was made on the
13 29th of February to hear the evidence of that witness through videolink.
14 It was a rather late application. We received additional information
15 yesterday. It was filed yesterday. We received the response from the
16 Prosecution today. The Chamber has decided that we grant the request for
17 hearing that evidence through videolink ; reasons to follow.
18 As far as timing is concerned, since Witness DFS-012 is not
19 called, the Chamber would expect that we would hear that evidence by
20 Witness DFS-010 through videolink on the 13th of March.
21 Is that what you've prepared for? I see that the Simatovic
22 Defence is nodding yes.
23 Do you have any other witnesses for the remainder of that week?
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will be ready for
25 DFS-010, as indicated by you. We have no other witnesses scheduled for
1 that week, and I think that we have extensively explained why and how.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This was the urgent matter which we had to
3 deal with at this very moment; that is, our decision and the timing.
4 Further scheduling issues we may address later.
5 We stand adjourned, and we resume on Tuesday, the 13th of March,
6 at quarter past -- no, no. Of course, that's now for next week.
7 Tomorrow, the 7th of March, at 9.00 in the morning in this same
8 courtroom, II.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of
11 March, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.