Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17905

 1                           Tuesday, 6 March 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             And before I give an opportunity, because you wanted to address

13     the Chamber, I have two short matters which I'd like to address first,

14     but for the first one we have to move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17906











11 Page 17906 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17907

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 5             On the 23rd of February, the Chamber has granted the Prosecution

 6     a three-week extension to respond to the Stanisic Defence's consolidated

 7     bar table motion, Mr. Groome.  And there was a separate motion concerning

 8     three documents only, filed on that same day, the 23rd of February.

 9             Now, no response has been received to that motion, and the

10     Chamber understood the Prosecution's arguments for an extension to hold

11     true only for the consolidated motion.  But there may have been a

12     misunderstanding.  But I would like to inquire whether the Prosecution

13     wanted to respond to the bar table motion of three documents only,

14     because that was filed on the 23rd of February, which means that the

15     time-limits expires this Thursday, I think, on the 8th of the March.

16             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I ask Ms. Marcus to deal with

17     that.  She is more familiar with the issue.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Marcus.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Thank you.

20             We did -- it was probably my error, we did take that to be part

21     of the bar table just having been filed separately, so we did make the

22     obviously incorrect assumption that that would all be extended with the

23     deadline.  We can certainly respond on those three documents in time for

24     Thursday if Your Honours would prefer.  It's possible, though, that the

25     arguments that we might make in that submission would relate to the

Page 17908

 1     arguments that we would make in the later submission and we may then just

 2     cross-reference it, if that's acceptable to Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And -- any preference by the Stanisic Defence?

 4     I can imagine to making cross-references is another source of mistakes,

 5     isn't it, and it's about three documents only, and that's on the

 6     totalities of a limited number.  So I wonder whether we should insist on

 7     receiving a response on the three by Thursday or that we just include

 8     them in the whole bunch.

 9             MR. JORDASH:  In many ways, it makes sense to include them all in

10     the whole bunch, I think.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The extension of time is granted also for the motion

14     relating only to the three documents.

15             Then could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

16             Mr. Petrovic, it will be you who is --

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When I read the summary of the anticipated

19     testimony, the -- there are a few lines which sound very familiar to me,

20     Mr. Petrovic, like the witness is expected to testify on the

21     deterioration of interethnic relations in the Republic of Croatia after

22     the first multi-party elections.  I have a vague recollection that I've

23     seen this language before, and I also remember that it was sometimes not

24     disputed by the Prosecution that the interethnic relations became worse.

25             Similar, could you please keep in mind very carefully that we are


Page 17909

 1     not hearing repetitious evidence, because, especially if it's not the

 2     core issues of this case, then I think there would be no need to hear

 3     that.  There's no great dispute about worsening of the interethnic

 4     relations, Ms. Marcus, is there?

 5             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Will you also carefully check whether there is

 8     anything in the adjudicated facts which might cover any of the topics.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we will do so, Your Honour.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

14     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

15     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  PETAR DJUKIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djukic, please be seated.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djukic, the Chamber has been informed about your

25     medical condition.  If at any time you would need a break, don't hesitate


Page 17910

 1     to address me.

 2             We usually take a break after one hour and 15 minutes.  A break

 3     will then be half an hour.  And then we have two more sessions of 75

 4     minutes.  Again, divided by a break of half an hour, so that you know,

 5     more or less what to expect.  But if you need any additional break, don't

 6     hesitate to ask for it.

 7             You will first be examined by Mr. Petrovic, and Mr. Petrovic is

 8     counsel for Mr. Simatovic.

 9             Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Examination by Mr. Petrovic:

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   Can you tell us your full name for the record.

16        A.   My name is Petar Djukic, nicknamed Pero.  Paragraf.

17        Q.   Can you give us your date of birth?

18        A.   On the 11th of July, 1942, in Cerik Brcko, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        Q.   Can you tell us where you've completed your primary and secondary

20     education?

21        A.   I completed my primary school in the village of Bosanska Bijela

22     in the municipality of Brcko, and I then proceeded to the faculty which I

23     graduated from in Zagreb.

24        Q.   And which university was that?

25        A.   It was the study of legal affairs, affairs of state

Page 17911

 1     administration.

 2        Q.   Can we just please make sure that we make a break between

 3     question and answer.

 4        A.   Yes, I will need to adapt to that.

 5        Q.   Witness, you said that you obtained university degree in Zagreb.

 6     Where was that?

 7        A.   First, I attended a two-year course in administration affairs,

 8     and then proceeded to study at the law school in Zagreb.

 9        Q.   Did you attend any master courses?

10        A.   Yes, with the renowned professor, Franjo Bacic.  I attended the

11     masters course in criminal law.  After I had to leave Zagreb, I applied

12     to defend my masters thesis in Novi Sad.  Unfortunately, my duties

13     prevented me from doing so.

14        Q.   Sir, where did you first get employment?

15        A.   I first got employment as policeman in the village called

16     Drenovci, after I completed the policing school where I was the best in

17     my class.

18        Q.   Sir, did you work for a while in Zupanja and, if so, when was

19     that?

20        A.   Let me clarify this.  Drenovci and Zupanja come under the same

21     secretariat.  Drenovci are in a substation.  Between 1968 and 1972 I was

22     there, and in Zupanja, charged with crime.

23        Q.   It says here that you worked there until 1972.  Until which year

24     did you work in Zupanja?

25        A.   Until 1972 I was charged with crime.  And between 1972 and 1977 I

Page 17912

 1     was the commander of the police station in Zupanja.

 2        Q.   Did there come a time when you were transferred to the Republican

 3     Secretariat of the interior in Zagreb?

 4        A.   Yes.  Let me just say that after the post of the commander of

 5     police, I was a police officer charged with defence and management of

 6     emergency situations.  And then I was transferred to the Republican

 7     Secretariat of the interior in the sector for operative affairs, and I

 8     was occupying the post of inspector for the method of work --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch what year that

10     was.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the year you are talking about.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1982.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, sir, did you at some point defend a dissertation which

15     granted you the highest post in the Republic of Croatia?

16        A.   Yes.  In 1987, I defended the dissertation on the topic of the

17     basic policing duties in the service of public security.

18             Before that, I was appointed to the post of the chief of the

19     police of the Socialist Republic of Croatia, and I had roughly 11.000

20     subordinates.

21        Q.   Witness, up until here were you employed in the RSUP Croatia?

22        A.   Until the 20th of June 1990.

23        Q.   Witness, we will skip the war period for now and I'll ask you to

24     tell us if at the end of 1995 you were received any sort of duty from the

25     international community.

Page 17913

 1        A.   In the month of December, after the signing of the Erdut

 2     Agreement on the peaceful reintegration of the district of Eastern

 3     Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem based on which Resolution 1037 was adopted by

 4     the Security Council of the United Nations, on the order of certain

 5     international representatives, I was charged with running the work of

 6     interim police forces.

 7        Q.   Mr. Djukic, were you appointed to some duty on 1st July 1996 and

 8     if so by whom?

 9        A.   After the UNTAES mission was set up, Ambassador Jacques-Paul

10     Klein appointed me to the post of the chief or head of the interim police

11     forces.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, it was announced that some documents

13     would be used with this witness.  I really wondered whether there was a

14     dispute about an appointment the 1st of July by Mr. Klein of this witness

15     to a certain task.  We even received copies of the documents confirming

16     that.  I do not know what the exact relevance for this is apart from that

17     apparently that the international community entrusted some tasks to -- to

18     this witness.

19             Have you discussed with Ms. Marcus whether there is any dispute

20     about appointment, task, and, of course, the next steps will be whether

21     they were happy with what the witness did.  Certificates of appreciation.

22             Is there any dispute about that?

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't believe that

24     there is any dispute about that, but I want Their Honours to see it.  I

25     want this to be heard, because I would like to pin-point the serious

Page 17914

 1     affairs that the witness was charged with.  It will only take a couple of

 2     minutes, and these are the reasons why I would like to present these

 3     issues to you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Why don't you agree on that with the Prosecution?

 5     Why do we have to -- I mean, you have seen that important tasks, we

 6     received announcement of these documents to be used, so what you want to

 7     pin-point at is -- is first something you could have agreed on because

 8     this is no dispute about it.  Second, you could have -- you could have

 9     sought admission through a bar table exercise because it's perfectly

10     clear what these documents say.

11             So if there is anything in addition to that which sheds a

12     different light on it, please proceed.  Otherwise, choose one of these

13     avenues to bring it to our attention.  You may have noticed that it is

14     already to our attention, by the way, but not yet as evidence.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in that case, if my

16     colleague doesn't object can 2D1211, 2D1212, and 2D1210 be admitted as

17     Defence exhibits.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I have no objection to 2D1210, or

19     2D1212.  The 2D1211 is a bit of a curious document.  We don't contest the

20     facts as Your Honours has set forth that the witness held this position.

21     But the document is just a bit curious.  It's unsigned.  The original is

22     in B/C/S rather than in English, so I'm just -- I'm curious about that

23     particular document.

24             But we do not contest the facts as asserted.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 17915

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please tell us whether we would receive a

 3     translation soon from the document which is apparently -- let me just

 4     have a look.

 5             The unsigned ones seems to be as 462 --

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] 1211, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's 1211.

 8             Ms. Marcus, the copies we received is with handwriting on the

 9     top, 462/96 handwritten.  That is the unsigned document.  We have

10     translation but no signature.

11             Is that --

12             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the one you are referring to?

14             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  And it -- if that's -- I'm not

15     sure which one is the original, but assuming it was Jacques Klein who

16     wrote it and it was a UN document, I would think the original is English

17     and the English that I have is a translation of the B/C/S.  Neither of

18     them are signed, Your Honour, so ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can assist.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please --

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] When he came to The Hague, the

23     witness brought along the Serbian version of the document that he

24     received, as far as I understand, at the time when Jacques Klein gave it

25     to him.  The Serbian version is the basic one that we use.  The

Page 17916

 1     translation is one that we've produced, and I think that the witness can

 2     help us.  He does have the English version of the document which he

 3     hasn't brought along The Hague.  But if this is contested and if asked,

 4     I'm sure that he will find ways to deliver it to us.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is it quite possible for

 6     me to bring that over.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a -- any signed copy of the letter of

 9     the 2nd of June in which reference is made to the appointment on the 1st

10     of July?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the English version back at

12     home.  The head of the interim administration was an authority to me.  I

13     can't go into how his documents were produced.  They never bore a stamp

14     or a seal of any sort, his documents.  There was just this designation of

15     the United Nations.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The English copy you have got at home.  Is that a

17     signed letter?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I presume so.  I can tell you that

19     I received numerous --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- citations in writing from

22     Mr. Klein commending me, and believe me when I tell you it's been a long

23     time ago, so I can't remember all the details.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question, that you presume that

25     the document at home is signed.

Page 17917

 1             Let me just check.  2D1210 and 2D1212 are admitted into evidence

 2     and the numbers assigned to these documents, Mr. Registrar, would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 2D1212 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit D759.

 5             And 65 ter document 2D1210 shall be assigned Exhibit D760.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And they're admitted into evidence under these

 8     numbers.

 9             Then for 2D1211, Mr. Registrar, which will be marked for

10     identification, what number would be assigned?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D761.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Mr. Petrovic, to the extent the witness has a signed version of

14     that letter available, we'll invite him to -- to provide us --

15             Yes, please proceed.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  We will

17     follow your instructions, as far as this document is concerned.

18        Q.   Now, Witness, sir, I just have one question with regard to your

19     relationship with Mr. Klein.

20             Did Mr. Klein ever offer you a job after the completion of your

21     mission in Eastern Slavonia?

22        A.   Well, since it is being questioned here whether I ever was in

23     actual fact the head of the interim police or not, let me just say a few

24     words --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you there.  That is not in

Page 17918

 1     dispute.  It's not challenged.  So, therefore, you don't have to worry

 2     about that.

 3             Did Mr. Klein ever offer you a job, as Mr. Petrovic asked you?

 4             A yes or a no simply would do.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he certainly did.  And I have

 6     to stress that he commended me especially for my great contribution, as

 7     did his -- as did Ambassador Walker in January 1998 in Zagreb.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Petrovic, to the extent it was your point to establish that

10     the witness was held in high esteem by -- by Mr. Klein and by others,

11     then that point is clear.

12             You may proceed.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you said a moment ago that up until 1990, you were

15     employed with the Republic of Croatia SUP.  Would you please tell us

16     briefly why you stopped working in the Croatian SUP in June 1990.

17        A.   In the Socialist Federal Republic of Croatia after the democratic

18     elections there were fundamental changes in the political order in the

19     state, and I had given my oath to the socialist republic and I was not

20     prepared to defend the political system of any other order.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.  Could you please tell us where you went

22     from Zagreb?

23        A.   I want back to Cerik, my birth place, in Brcko municipality

24     because that was the only way out for me.

25        Q.   Mr. Djukic, when you arrived in Cerik did you offer your services

Page 17919

 1     to any structure or any organisation in that area?

 2        A.   Since I was 48 years old I was a conscript, according to the Law

 3     on The Military Forces, so I reported immediately to the JNA and to the

 4     chief of security and intelligence, Mr. Momcilo Petrovic, and I said that

 5     I was prepared to offer my services, that I was at his disposal, all in

 6     the hope that we would remain within Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Witness, sir, the record does not show which garrison you

 8     mentioned so would you please repeat it.

 9        A.   This was the Brcko garrison.  The garrison commander was

10     Colonel Pavle Milinkovic.

11        Q.   Sir, Mr. Djukic, you said that you worked with the chief of

12     intelligence, Mr. Petrovic.  Could you please tell us what that consisted

13     in, how did you work with him, with Mr. Petrovic, and did you have a

14     code-name at the time?

15        A.   As I was still in -- officially I was still assigned to Zagreb

16     and I had not received my papers, my code-name was Magistar, Magistar.

17        Q.   Witness, sir, did you work with any other officer -- JNA officer

18     at the time?  And if we need to move to private session so that you can

19     tell us his name, would you please just let us know?

20        A.   Well, I would appreciate it if we could move to private session

21     for benefit of the person in question.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections against going into private

23     session.  Although ...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The captain who was my

25     connection --


Page 17920

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 2     continues] ...

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Djukic, on instructions from the JNA, did you join any

25     political party at the time and, if so, which one?


Page 17921

 1        A.   Well, in the area where I lived, there were 19.7 per cent of

 2     Serbs.  The ratio in the event of war would be 1 to 5.  I was asked to

 3     join, which was in accordance with the Communist party, I joined the late

 4     Professor Nijaz Durakovic's party in Brcko, the social democrats.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic, for your answers, but would you please

 6     just speak a little more slowly so that all that you say can be reflected

 7     in the transcript.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could you make a pause

 9     between question and answer and answer and question.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Djukic, in Pelagicevo in October 1991, did there come a time

12     when an armed unit arrived there?

13        A.   Yes, certainly.  The 17th Tactical Group arrived, headed by

14     Colonel Stevan Nikolic [Realtime transcript read in error "Niklovic"],

15     aka Kriger.

16        Q.   Can you tell us where the 17th Tactical Group came from?

17        A.   It came from Derventa because it was under pressure there from

18     Croatian paramilitary formations, and they tried to avoid young soldiers

19     being killed.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness could you please repeat the name of the commander of

21     this 17th Tactical Group because it is not correctly recorded in the

22     transcript.

23        A.   Stevan Nikolic, a colonel.  His nickname was Kriger because he

24     had a cap that was reminiscent of the cap that was worn by a character

25     from a Belgrade TV series, Otpisani, who was called Kriger.

Page 17922

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.  Tell us, please, in the autumn of 1991

 2     and in early 1992, did you know what the intentions of the Croatian side

 3     were, both the Croatians in the Republic of Croatia as well as in Bosnia

 4     and Herzegovina, as far as some areas in the Sava river valley were

 5     concerned?

 6        A.   Yes, I do know of that because I worked for many years in Zupanja

 7     and it bordered on the Sava with Bosnia along a stretch of 108

 8     kilometres.

 9             The plan of the Croatian forces was to take control of Modrica,

10     Odzak, Samac, Orasje, Brcko, and to cut the corridors so that Knin would

11     remain in the rear supported and that -- that, in fact, so that

12     logistical support could be provided from Knin.

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, perhaps because of the speed of your speech not all

14     of the towns that you mentioned were recorded in the transcript.

15             Could you please repeat them?  Repeat the towns that you

16     mentioned.

17        A.   Derventa, Modrica, Odzak, Bosanski Samac, Orasje, Brcko; in other

18     words, the Bosnian Posavina.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.  Could you tell us how the 17th Tactical

20     Group was reinforced militarily, if you know.  And I'm referring to this

21     period, late 1991/early 1992.

22        A.   Well, I'm very familiar with that.  It was reinforced by

23     conscripts in the early days by the very young ones who had just served

24     in the JNA.

25        Q.   Could you tell us which towns those conscripts came from and, if

Page 17923

 1     you knew, what ethnicity they were?

 2        A.   They were from all the Serb villages in Gradacac and Samac

 3     municipalities, except in Spijunica and Srnice that were separate.  And

 4     my village Srnice, which had been surrounded by Bukvik --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  And interpreter could not catch the other name.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because they did not have any

 7     links with the garrison, but the most prominent villages were Batkusa,

 8     Slatina, Krusko Polje, and a series of other villages.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- you really have to slow down because

10     otherwise the interpreters are unable to follow what you say.

11             Could I first seek clarification of the following:  Your -- part

12     of your last answer:

13             "... was they were from all the Serb villages in," and what did

14     you then say?  "In ... and Samac."  What did you first mentioned?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Spijunica, Srnice, Cerik, Plazevac,

16     Porebrice, Pelagicevo, Donji Zabar, Obudovac, Slatina, Batkusa,

17     Krusko Polje, and the town Bosanski Samac itself.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that what is now still missing will

19     be corrected after having heard the audio.

20             Mr. Petrovic, could you please take care that the witness slows

21     down and that breaks are made.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both, on behalf of

24     the witness and in my own name, I will say that we will do our best to

25     comply with your instructions.

Page 17924

 1        Q.   Witness, sir, you have just told us what villages the reservists

 2     who reinforced the 17th Tactical Group were from.  Now could you tell us

 3     how these individuals were armed and by whom?

 4        A.   In the first -- at the first stage, the conscripts were armed

 5     only in the border areas that had contact with Croatian and Muslim

 6     villages because it was assessed that possible attack would come from

 7     there.  The arming was done exclusively by the JNA and the weapons used

 8     for -- for arming them was the -- were the weapons that were envisaged

 9     per establishment within the JNA.  Per each ten soldiers there would be

10     one machine-gun, six automatic and three semi-automatic rifles, plus

11     handheld launchers; two hand grenades; bayonets, and so on.  If

12     necessary, I can add whatever is necessary.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  If there is any --

14     if anything else was necessary, then it would be added on.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.  Tell us, please, as these reservists, as

17     you told us, were from the villages in the area of Bosanska Posavina, did

18     they go home when -- from those units?  Did they go on home on leave from

19     those units and did they take something with them?

20        A.   Well, yes, some of those reservists - and I have to stress this -

21     did take these weapons to their homes, and in the first phase only night

22     patrols were established within villages.  They started doing that.  And

23     they were -- they were trying to be as discreet as possible so that they

24     would not upset or, rather, bring some restlessness among the other --

25     the non-Serb population.  Although most of them -- most of the population

Page 17925

 1     was Serb.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, the reservists who went home on leave, did they

 3     organise themselves once they got back to their villages?

 4        A.   Well, I will repeat again, this was the case only in the border

 5     areas of the 17th Tactical Group area of responsibility.  Only small

 6     units were established; in other words, platoons of up to 30 men.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us who commanded these platoons that were being

 8     established within these villages?

 9        A.   They were under the command of reserve commissioned and

10     non-commissioned officers of the JNA, ones that would normally reside in

11     their homes until they were activated, although not yet mobilised.

12        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you mentioned the weapons that the reservists had.

13     Can you tell us what was the weaponry at the disposal of the

14     17th Tactical Group, if you know, in the period we are discussing, end of

15     1991 and early 1992?

16        A.   Of course I know.  The 17th Tactical Group had Howitzers of 155

17     millimetres, tanks T-34, the Pragas, armoured combat vehicles and a

18     number of mortars, 82 and 60 millimetres.  In addition to that they had

19     anti-tank assets, Zoljas and Osas, hand-held rocket-launchers.

20        Q.   Witness, sir, do you know within which larger organism was the

21     17th Tactical Group?

22        A.   Until the month of May, they were under the Tuzla Corps under the

23     command of Sava Ivanovic.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter isn't sure about the last name.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the name of the commander.  Sava,

Page 17926

 1     and then?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jankovic.  I apologise.  I have a

 3     bit of a sore throat.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you can help yourself to some water.

 6             Mr. Djukic, did there come a time when you came in touch with

 7     Colonel Nikolic, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group?

 8        A.   Yes.  From the day he assumed his position, I was at his disposal

 9     at all times.  I help him to familiarise himself with the area, the

10     population, the demographics, and the other basic information.  For

11     instance, the experience that the local population brought over from the

12     previous war which was that they would not agree to leaving their local

13     areas to fight elsewhere.

14        Q.   Did you make any assessments for him, for Mr. Nikolic?

15        A.   Yes, of course.  I worked with his officers.  I cannot say their

16     worked or produced anything for them, other than providing them with

17     information.

18        Q.   Mr. Djukic, do you know if, during the fighting in the Republic

19     of Croatia, there was a plane that was shot down somewhere in the area of

20     Samac?

21        A.   In Slavonski Brod, which is on the other bank of the Sava river

22     across from Bosanski Samac, a plane was shot down.  The pilot ejected

23     himself and the plane crashed in a village there in Croatia.  The pilot

24     was saved and with the assistance of the former members of the State

25     Security Service, Simo Zaric, they went to the command of the air force

Page 17927

 1     in Belgrade.  They brought the pilot back.  And as a reward, the peasant

 2     who was there and saved the pilot was given a uniform.

 3        Q.   You mentioned that Simo Zaric was a member of the State Security

 4     Service.  Can you tell us which service was that?

 5        A.   The State Security Service of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was the

 6     head of the forward outpost of that service in Modrica.

 7        Q.   You told us that Simo Zaric interceded in this affair where the

 8     pilot was taken back to the command of the air force in Belgrade.

 9             Did Zaric come into contact with anyone on that occasion?

10        A.   Yes, I know about that.  For a great many years I was in contact

11     with Zaric both privately and professionally.  He got to know certain

12     generals and commanders who were members of the air force.

13        Q.   If you can recall, can you give us any names of the generals that

14     Simo Zaric got in touch with?

15        A.   It was Bajic, who was the -- the right wing of the partisan

16     football club.

17        Q.   Mr. Djukic, is that the way you remember that last name or was it

18     a footballer, really?

19        A.   Well, I remembered him by the family name of Bajic because I knew

20     a footballer and I was a passionate supporter myself.

21        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

22             Can you tell us what happened on the 16th of January, 1992; if

23     you know?

24        A.   On the 16th of January, 1992, mobilisation was conducted,

25     although it was not part of a general call for mobilisation.  I know

Page 17928

 1     that - I insisted myself, I had two sons, although they were still

 2     minors - that conscripts should have a stamp placed in their military

 3     booklets because that would mean that they were in a war and be entitled

 4     to certain rights arising from their participation in the war.  I was

 5     aware of that because I had to deal with some very complex situations

 6     while I was one of -- of the leaders of the police force.

 7        Q.   Witness, therefore, what was it that was entered into the

 8     military records of all the conscripts in Bosnian Posavina on that

 9     particular date?

10        A.   Well, there was just a seal and a date affixed to one of the

11     columns there.  There was still not a war going on there.  The war in

12     Posavina broke out at a later date.

13        Q.   Mr. Djukic, was it about this time that larger units were being

14     formed in the area of the 17th Tactical Group; if you know?

15        A.   Yes, of course.  Military detachments were being formed, and they

16     were strictly units of the JNA.  Battalions -- or, rather, detachments

17     were formed.

18        Q.   Can you tell us how many of these detachments were there?

19        A.   If I recall, initially four of them.  The first one was in

20     Obudovac, the second in Kruskovo Polje, the third in Pelagicevo, the

21     fourth in Bosanski Samac.  And that was the one that was most prominently

22     Yugoslav by its composition because roughly one-third of the detachment

23     was composed of members of other ethnicities.

24        Q.   You mentioned the 1st Detachment --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

Page 17929

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'd like to just note for the

 2     record I found this 65 ter summary to be very difficult to understand and

 3     difficult to prepare on.  And I'd like note that for the past ten

 4     pages -- I think now we are getting into an area which seems to fall into

 5     the 65 ter summary, but for the past ten page there was literally no

 6     notice other than in May 1991 the witness left Zagreb and served as a JNA

 7     reserve officer in the Brcko garrison.  We had absolutely no information

 8     about anything that's been led in the past ten pages.

 9             I'd like to just put that on the record.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, any response to that or would you

11     agree with Ms. Marcus?

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,

13     I disagree.

14             The summary stated that the witness would speak to the events in

15     Bosanski Samac in the run-up to the takeover, as well as about all the

16     other events at around this time.  And all these issues we have been

17     discussing in the past couple of pages were the circumstances surrounding

18     the takeover of power of Samac in 1992, and this is merely an

19     introduction into these events.  That's how I see it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the position of both parties is hereby on the

21     record.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Witness, sir, you mentioned the 1st Detachment.  Can you tell us

25     what was the area of responsibility of the 1st Detachment?

Page 17930

 1        A.   Obudovac, Batkusa, and some other small hamlets.  There would be

 2     a great many if I were to list them here.  And they ran along a stretch

 3     that had on its opposite side the Croatian forces that had already been

 4     equipped an armed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Andjelko Maslic is?

 6        A.   I know the gentleman very well, Andjelko Maslic.  He was the

 7     deputy president of the Presidency of the SFRY, and intellectual who

 8     hailed from Bosanski Samac who helped right the books entitled ...

 9        Q.   Can you just tell us if you know him and, if so, what was the

10     position he occupied in the period we're discussing.

11        A.   I know him back from the time when I was -- when he was the

12     secretary of the Presidency of the SFRY.  As Yugoslavia broke up, he was

13     retired and he hails from Bosanski Samac.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.  Do you know if Mr. Maslic helped

15     establish contacts with certain military structures in this period of

16     time?

17        A.   Of course he did.  He was in touch with a pensioned general,

18     Pekic, who hailed from Kordun in Croatia.  Together with him he provided

19     the necessary assistance and advice, insisting with the competent

20     institutions that the Serbian people in Posavina be protected.

21        Q.   Witness, do you know who Blagoje Simic is; and if so what is the

22     position that the person occupied in early 1992?

23        A.   I know Blagoje Simic from before.  I met with him repeatedly in

24     1991.  He was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party.  He was the

25     chairman of the Bosanski Samac regional board, as well as for the board

Page 17931

 1     of Doboj.  This is something that you didn't ask me about.  Because I

 2     joined the multi-ethnic social democrats, I had many problems that I

 3     experienced from the SDS.

 4        Q.   Mr. Djukic, do you know in the spring of 1992, what was the

 5     relationship between Blagoje Simic and the leadership of the SDS?

 6        A.   He was one of the most trusted men among -- for the president of

 7     the SDS, Mr. Radoslav Karadzic -- Radovan Karadzic.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us in a sentence what was the security situation

 9     like in 1992 in Posavina?

10        A.   Catastrophic, in a word.  And I could use up another hundred to

11     describe what it was like.

12        Q.   Can you tell us exactly where the village of Sijekovac is

13     located; and did something important happen there in the spring of 1992?

14        A.   I think it was the 23rd of March that the regular Croatian forces

15     entered Sijekovac collecting crimes on a mass scale.  Several days later

16     they captured Derventa.

17        Q.   You say that they were Croatian forces.  Where did they come

18     from; if you know?

19        A.   Well, I did say earlier on that the Sava divides Slavonski Brod

20     and Bosanski Brod.  They came from the direction of Bosanski Brod, and I

21     don't know which parts of Croatia these forces had originally come from.

22     I don't have that sort of information.

23        Q.   Witness, what was the situation like in Bosanski Samac proper, in

24     the spring of 1992?

25        A.   Bosanski Samac was inhabited by representatives of three

Page 17932

 1     ethnicities.  The president of the executive committee was one Jovanovic.

 2     The vice-president was Izet Izetbegovic.  And the coalition of the

 3     Muslims and Croats was the dominant one.  Otherwise, demographically, the

 4     Muslims were the most numerous in the area, and the Serbs were next.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djukic, was there a staff established of the Muslim forces or

 6     the Muslim people in Bosanski Samac in the spring of 1992?

 7        A.   On the 12th or the 13th of April, Alija Izetbegovic established a

 8     TO War Staff that was composed solely of the Muslims and Croats.  There

 9     wasn't a single Serb in there.

10        Q.   Can you repeat the date, please.  It's not recorded properly.

11        A.   It was the 12th or the 13th of April, 1992.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I think this is the time for our

14     first break today.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break.  And we resume at 4.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise for the late start.  There was an urgent

19     matter which needed my attention which prevented me from returning in

20     time.

21             Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   Mr. Djukic, before the break you mentioned the TO staff, the war

24     TO staff, that was -- that comprised Croats and Muslims alone.  Could you

25     tell us who was at the head of that war-time staff?


Page 17933

 1        A.   I believe his name was Izet Fitozovic.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness

 3     please be shown P221.

 4        Q.   Now please take a look at the document before you on the screen,

 5     on the left-hand side.

 6        A.   I was correct.  But my apologies, his name was Alija, not Izet.

 7        Q.   Could you please tell us if you recognise the individuals

 8     mentioned here as staff members?  And could you tell us if you know

 9     anything about these people?

10        A.   Well, I do know these people.  Sulejman Tihic and another person

11     I know very well, but I would appreciate if we could move to private

12     session for that.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please move

14     into private session previously.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17934











11 Pages 17934-17935 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17936

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

19     you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Mr. Djukic, without mentioning any names, the names that you

23     mentioned a moment ago, please tell us how you know that these

24     individuals were involved in the trafficking -- illicit trafficking of

25     weapons from Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina, the central part of


Page 17937

 1     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  How do you know that?

 2        A.   Well, I have to explain first that I received certain tasks from

 3     the security and intelligence organ, the corps security and intelligence

 4     organ, and that I had a very high duty in the main security and

 5     intelligence organ in the Army of Republika Srpska.  So some of the

 6     information comes from intercepts, some from direct knowledge, some from

 7     citizen complaints, to the effect that police officers would just observe

 8     how weapons were being transported by members of Croat or Muslim

 9     ethnicity onto trucks with Croatian or Slovene registration plates.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

11             You mentioned the way that these -- this materiel was obtained.

12     Now, can you tell us whether you know if any individuals were in charge

13     of transferring materiel and technical equipment for the SDA and the

14     war-time staff that you spoke about a little earlier?

15        A.   The village Prut and all the other villages - and I don't want to

16     waste this Chamber's precious time - but all the villages between Samac

17     and Orasje were Croatian, so there was no way of checking the transport

18     of weapons by individuals across the Sava from Croatia into the Croatian

19     villages in Bosnia where they established some military units and combat

20     groups.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness, you said that you knew about the existence of this

22     war-time staff.  Now, do you know whether any unit was established by the

23     SDA in Bosanski Samac in the spring of 1992?

24        A.   I don't know anything about that.

25        Q.   Witness, sir, please tell us who was at the head of the public

Page 17938

 1     security station in Bosanski Samac in April 1992?

 2        A.   It was Vinko Dragicevic.  He was a representative of the Croatian

 3     side because this was a Muslim/Croat/Serb coalition at the time.

 4     Dragan Lukac was the chief of the crime police.  Stoko Sekulic was the

 5     commander of the public security station, and they were there as

 6     representatives of the Serb side.

 7        Q.   Witness, sir, what was the position of the Serbian Democratic

 8     Party in Bosanski Samac?  What was their position on the work of the

 9     public security station in Bosanski Samac?

10        A.   Well, the position of the SDS and the Serb population was the

11     following.  Irrespective of the composition and what ethnicity the

12     members were, the public security station was not capable of protecting

13     all the vital aspects and security of people and security of their

14     property.

15        Q.   Witness, sir, do you know whether the -- the SDA organised a

16     citizen group that was supposed to defend the town of Bosanski Samac?

17        A.   Well, it was only established later on when we came across some

18     lists, a certain Atizovic or Elezovic went through Samac and the

19     surrounding villages with the so-called Liljani, a small unit, which was

20     called Liljani because it had the patch of the Muslim side -- of the

21     Muslim party at the time which is now renamed into Bosnia party, and they

22     were Lilies.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have the

24     witness shown 65 ter 3751 from the Prosecution list.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, could I invite you again to give a

Page 17939

 1     good example to the witness how to make a pause between the one speaking

 2     person and the other speaking person.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honour.

 4     Thank you.

 5        Q.   Witness, sir, this is a document that was produced by the TO

 6     Staff of Bosanski Samac.  And I would like to refer you to -- this

 7     document is dated the 13th of April, 1992.

 8             Now I would like to show you the second page.  Page 2.  If you

 9     recall, we showed you this document during the proofing.  This is a list

10     of six pages containing the names of 212 individuals.  Did you have

11     occasion to see this document earlier; or, in other words, did we show

12     you this document during proofing?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Judging by the names that appear on the list, could you tell us

15     what ethnicity the individuals whose names appear on this list of

16     self-organised citizens of Bosanski Samac are, the list that was compiled

17     on the 13th of April, 1992?

18        A.   Well, again, as I said, at the head of all of this was

19     Sulejman Tihic.  He was the leader.  And we can see his name appearing on

20     top -- on the top.  And then following his name are Bosnian names, all of

21     them.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would like to

24     tender this document as a Defence exhibit.

25             MS. MARCUS:  No objection.  Except it seems that the translation

Page 17940

 1     is missing a couple of pages.  But, obviously, there's no objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, part of the evidence is that all the

 5     names are Muslim names.  And, under those circumstances, I think,

 6     Ms. Marcus, that to have the original names would be good enough, or do

 7     you insist on having them transcribed, I would say, rather than

 8     translated; although, there is, of course -- now and then there is some

 9     explanation, apparently units to which they belong or perhaps addresses.

10     Until now, there's only about names.

11             Do you insist on having it completed?

12             MS. MARCUS:  If Your Honours are satisfied with that, I agree

13     with that.  Of course, the descriptions, as you say, Your Honour, are not

14     translated but the names are.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now.  There is one other -- yes.  That is, one

16     name is -- is -- is -- are all the pages missing with names in

17     translation?  All of them are missing.

18             Then, Mr. Petrovic, at least the title above the list of names

19     should be translated.  Therefore --

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- there's no need to have all the names translated,

22     or at least if no further evidence will be elicited on this matter.  But

23     at least the -- the title above the first name on the list should be

24     translated, so we will mark it for identification.  The original is then

25     many, many pages, and the English will then be two pages when you have

Page 17941

 1     completed that job.

 2             Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 3751 shall be assigned Exhibit

 4     D762, marked for identification.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And keeps that status until

 6     [Overlapping speakers]...

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  We will

 8     do as ordered by you.

 9        Q.   Witness, we spoke of the public security station in Bosanski

10     Samac and its activities.  You told us what the position of the SDS was

11     in respect of that station in April of 1992.

12             Was it the case that the SDS took a decision of some sort in

13     April of 1992 with regard to the running of the Samac public -- public

14     security station?

15        A.   Let me just add that it wasn't just the SDS that was dissatisfied

16     with their work.  It was the citizens themselves as well.  It was decided

17     that a more efficient and improved service should be set up, both in

18     terms of operations and the provision of services.

19        Q.   Witness, did you participate in a meeting which discussed the

20     ways and means of organising the work of the Samac public security

21     station?

22        A.   I did say that I did not enjoy credibility with the SDS.  It was

23     through Petar Stevic and Lazo Mrkic, both of whom were friends of mine,

24     and Stevic was also a member of the service, we were told that in the

25     building of Agroposavina on the 12th of April, I should help build up an

Page 17942

 1     organisation equipped with all the required materiel and assets that a

 2     public security station should have.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djukic, can you tell us who referred you to that meeting?

 4        A.   Nobody did.  I went to that meeting as a person who was familiar

 5     with the way a public security station should be organised and run.

 6     Admittedly, I did tell Commander Nikolic that I would attend the meeting.

 7     He told me, I will not interfere with the business of the police and the

 8     civilian authorities.

 9        Q.   Did there come a time when you learnt that certain volunteers had

10     arrived in Bosanski Samac?

11        A.   Yes.  In fact, it was at this very meeting that I learnt it.

12     Stevan Todorovic, also known as Steve, and I would style him the

13     monstrum, or the monster.  We heard that he had 20 man who landed in the

14     village of Batkusa by helicopter in the area of responsibility of the

15     1st Detachment.

16        Q.   Can you tell us whose helicopter it was that these people

17     disembarked from in the village of Batkusa?

18        A.   I can't.  Had I seen the helicopter, I would have been able to

19     tell you.  I can only tell you that that sort of helicopter that could

20     carry as men was in the possession of only the JNA.  I think it was the

21     Knin Corps which, at the time, was still headed by General - perhaps

22     Colonel - Mladic.

23        Q.   Did you learn under whose command it was that this group of

24     volunteers came, if they came under any command upon their arrival in

25     Batkusa?

Page 17943

 1        A.   The arrival of this group of volunteers did cause some discomfort

 2     to the town itself, an uneasiness and reservation on the part of the

 3     inhabitants because Obudovac, Donji Zabari, and Pelagicevo had many

 4     capable trained young money who had done their military service.

 5     Therefore, Commander Stevan Nikolic was asked to account for the presence

 6     of these volunteers and to say who it was who needed them in the area.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us, did Stevan Nikolic give any sort of explanation

 8     and did you learn under whose command they were?

 9        A.   Stevan Nikolic asked to be given a day or two until such time as

10     his officers would get in touch with them in person to find out who they

11     were and who they would be working for, if they were there to chase

12     individuals away from the area, or to protect the area, or something

13     quite different.

14        Q.   Two or three days later, what was the conclusion that the

15     officers of Stevan Nikolic arrived at?

16        A.   Well, these individuals, conscripts, volunteers - what should I

17     call them? - all agreed that they would voluntarily join the JNA and be

18     resubordinated to the detachments under the 17th Tactical Group.  They

19     also agreed that they would perform the tasks given conscientiously.

20     Some joined the 1st Detachment, others the 2nd, depending on their

21     personal abilities, earlier experience, and skills.

22        Q.   Mr. Djukic, who it was who took over the public security station

23     in Samac, and when?

24        A.   But of course.  That was the day of the Bosanski Samac

25     municipality.  In the night between the 16th and the 17th of April, it

Page 17944

 1     was Todorovic who took over; Stevo Todorovic, also known as Steve.

 2             He organised matters the way that I had envisaged, at least in

 3     terms of numbers.  Stevic was the one who made the organigram, and he

 4     said that all those who accepted the SDS would be on the police force.

 5     He even said that, in that case, I would not be allowed on because I did

 6     not support the SDS.  But I wasn't interested in that to begin with.

 7        Q.   Witness, sir, what sort of steps did Colonel Nikolic take that

 8     night between the 16th and the 17th of April?

 9        A.   Well, there were different accounts, including those from the

10     JNA, as to what was happening in the station that night.  In my personal

11     view, based on my experience, it was a tactical measure, an extensive

12     raid with a view to seizing weapons from citizens who had great amounts

13     of both military and hunting weapons in their possession.

14             Colonel Nikolic was not kept abreast of these things.  However,

15     when he got word of it on the morning of the 17th, he called into --

16     in -- into the centre two armoured vehicles to come in as a show of

17     force.  He ordered the command of the detachment that they should come

18     out to the Bosna river-bank right away since the Croatian village of Prut

19     was already organised, under arms, and did not recognise the authorities

20     in Samac.  They were linked in terms of organisation and territory to the

21     municipality of Odzak.  On the other hand, the partially damaged bridge

22     across the Sava allowed the Croats to carry out an incursion into

23     Bosanski Samac.

24        Q.   Witness, can we look at D18, please.

25             Witness, this is a report sent to the General Staff of the SFRY

Page 17945

 1     armed forces on the 17th of April.

 2             It was sent out from the command of the 2nd Military District.

 3     It is a report relating to the events in Samac.

 4             In the middle of the page it reads:

 5             "The activities with a view to seizing the vital institutions,

 6     they were carried out with the participation of the forces of the

 7     Tactical Group 17, units of the Serbian Territorial Defence, and the

 8     police."

 9             Can you tell us what sort of the police force is referred to

10     here?

11        A.   Well, the active police force of the public security station in

12     Bosanski Samac.  Quite understandably, there was the participation of the

13     17th Tactical Group as well because there was a detachment of 55 men

14     within it.

15        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  You mentioned the 4th Detachment, which

16     included Simo Zaric, among others.  Do you know if there were members of

17     other ethnicities in that detachment, in addition to the Serbs?

18        A.   In the leadership of the staff itself, there were two Muslims and

19     one Croat.  There were the brothers Topcagic and one Vukovic.  Now the

20     unit, there were admittedly only a handful of Croats but there were

21     around 100 Muslims.

22        Q.   Witness, do you know these individuals who were members of the

23     4th Detachment?  How were they characterised by the War Staff of the SDA

24     and the SDA itself in Bosanski Samac?

25        A.   They were labelled as national traitors.  They were suspected of

Page 17946

 1     preparing an attack on Bosanski Samac.  I'm sorry if I have to expand on

 2     this, but we had a number of intercepts, and we received information from

 3     General Kukanjac to the effect that occupation was being prepared, and

 4     Kukanjac said that this was the only useful and helpful thing he did in

 5     his life.

 6             Now, for these individuals, they were called either ethnic or

 7     national traitors; something to that effect.

 8        Q.   Please look at P219.

 9             It is a proclamation entitled:  "The List of Local Traitors" or

10     "Domestic Traitors."  The first one on the list is Fadil Topcagic.  Do

11     you know him?

12        A.   Yes, of course.  He was one of the finest explosive specialists.

13     And --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the last part of

15     his answer.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was one of the leaders of the

17     detachment, an assistant.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- part of your last answer was not

19     understood by the interpreters.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Something was ordered but then it --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  -- it was given up on as an idea.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please resume.  You said when asked about

25     Fadil:

Page 17947

 1             "Yes, of course.  He was one of the finest explosive specialists

 2     and ..."

 3             Could you repeat what you then said?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, we were in a position to

 5     work on a mission together but the command decided that we should abort

 6     the mission.  I had high regard for him as an excellent officer, and I

 7     said that he was Commander Antic's assistant.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Witness --

11             MR. JORDASH:  May Mr. Stanisic be excused for the moment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And we continue meanwhile.

15             Yes, please proceed.

16                           [The accused Stanisic withdrew]

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Witness, you mentioned an intercept involving Kukanjac.  What

19     were the contents of the intercept and how did you come by it?

20        A.   It was a dispatch, a document that I didn't receive.  It was

21     encoded and then decoded in the command of Commander Nikolic, and he

22     shared this information with his officers, including myself.

23        Q.   Could you kindly tell us what the dispatch said, the one that

24     Nikolic told you about and that he had received from General Kukanjac?

25        A.   There was severe criticism there, that there was poor -- that the

Page 17948

 1     defence of Samac was poorly organised, that the Croatian forces were

 2     preparing themselves, and that we should expect them to seize the area

 3     and commit massacre against the people.  And he judged that the 17th

 4     Tactical Group was incapable of the job, of doing the job.

 5        Q.   Witness, you said that the volunteers who had arrived Batkusa

 6     placed themselves under the command of the 1st Detachment and in parts of

 7     the 2nd Detachment of the 17th Tactical Group.  Do you know if at some

 8     point an attack was planned and carried out against Modrica?

 9        A.   It was the 17th Tactical Group that mounted an attack on Modrica.

10     As an officer for intelligence and security, I was not duty-bound to

11     participate in combat, nor did I want to.  There was an order to that

12     effect, the area was successfully captured, and the tactical group moved

13     into this ethnically mixed town of Modrica as well as into certain

14     villages.

15             I don't know who ordered - it was the superior command, at any

16     rate - that the units of the tactical group should withdraw so that the

17     Serbian forces had to recapture the area, that's to say, Modrica, again.

18     And as the tactical group first moved in, it didn't come across any

19     significant resistance.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Petrovic please repeat the number of

21     the document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the number of the document,

23     Mr. Petrovic.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.  P1413.

25        Q.   Witness, have a look at the first paragraph, please.

Page 17949

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown page 1 of

 2     the document, please.

 3             Thank you.

 4             Can the witness look at the first paragraph of the document.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us, based on the localities mentioned here - if you

 6     know them, of course - if this has to do with the first or some other

 7     attack on Modrica?  And look at the date.  It's the 7th of May, 1992.

 8             Just a moment, please.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can this please be enlarged for

10     the witness so that he can read the text.

11        Q.   Do you want me to read it for you?

12        A.   Yes, please.

13        Q.   This is a document from the command of the 17th Tactical Group

14     dated the 7th of May, 1992, in Pelagicevo, to Lugar command.  An order

15     for an attack.  And it says:  "I have decided ..."

16             Under 1:

17             "In order to create favourable conditions for Modrica units, to

18     enable them to continue their combat and capture the town of Modrica,

19     link up with the units of the 17th Tactical Group that had been cut off

20     in the area of the villages of Donji Skugric and Tolisa, carry out an

21     all-out attack along the axis of Milosevac village-Garevac

22     village-Modrica and Kornica village-Cardak village-Pustara, agricultural

23     combine -- or agricultural co-operative."

24             Could you tell us which Modrica attack does this refer to?  You

25     mentioned some.

Page 17950

 1        A.   Well, obviously this is the first attack on Modrica.

 2     Stevan Nikolic, on orders from the General Staff, left Posavina on 19th

 3     of May.  Therefore, the second attack and the takeover of Modrica was

 4     carried out by the newly established units of the VRS after his

 5     withdrawal from Bosnia.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  After the JNA

 7     withdrew from Bosnia.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, under number 2 we see that there are tasks assigned

10     to the units and it says that the north column composed of the Lugar

11     Group; the central column, under 2, Column Commander Captain Grbic; and

12     under 3, the southern column --

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Which, Your Honours, is on the

14     next page in English.

15        Q.   The column commander is Crni.

16             Now, looking at this, do you know -- these columns that are

17     mentioned in this order, what -- which group did they belong to?

18        A.   Well, they were part of the 17th Tactical Group, but I can't tell

19     you exactly by platoon or detachment who belonged to what or where.  But

20     I can just tell that you these are volunteers, Lugar and Djordjevic,

21     whereas in the central part, that person there is an active-duty officer.

22        Q.   When you say in the central part, whom are you referring to?  Do

23     you mean the second column?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you, Witness, sir.

Page 17951

 1             Witness, sir, you mentioned that at the meeting in Agroposavina,

 2     you learned of the arrival of these volunteers.  Can you tell us, do you

 3     know whether there was any clash between Simo Zaric and Colonel Nikolic

 4     because of these volunteers who had arrived in Batkusa area?

 5        A.   Well, I couldn't really accept that.  You can't say that there

 6     can be a conflict between a colonel and a sergeant.  There can be a

 7     dialogue, a lot polemics.  Simo considered the volunteers would --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the witness.

 9        A.   -- members of the platoon who are not Serbs.  Although there were

10     other reasons too, Simo was very ambitious and he would probably be

11     satisfied --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you -- first of all, again,

13     that you would slow down.  But to resume your previous answer, you said.

14             "Well, I couldn't really accept that.  You can't say there could

15     be a conflict between a colonel and ..."

16             Could you resume your answer from there, because the interpreters

17     could not understand you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise yet again.

19             There were debates and there was protest by Simo Zaric.  He told

20     Nikolic that Posavina had a sufficient number of young, brave, and

21     capable men, that they did not need volunteers because members of his

22     detachment who were Muslims or Croats would leave the detachment and the

23     detachment would no longer be multi-ethnic.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, sir, could you tell us what Nikolic replied when he

Page 17952

 1     complained in this manner?

 2        A.   Well, Nikolic said that on the 28th of February, Croatian

 3     paramilitary units crossed over into Bosanski Brod, that the Croatian

 4     villages were full of combat groups, that there was some person there who

 5     was bringing in Liljani into Bosanski Samac, that he was disturbed by 20

 6     Serbs from Serbia, that the government of Serbia, in a decree of 1992,

 7     proclaimed that volunteers could report to fight.

 8                            [The accused Stanisic entered court]

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you tell us whether at some point you met a

10     person called Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli?

11        A.   Yes.  I met that person.  A Chetnik duke.

12        Q.   Can you tell us where you met him and under what circumstances?

13        A.   I met him in Obudovac village, where my mother came from, and I

14     had a friend there, Niko Bojic, who sold petrol products.  He told me, he

15     bragged that a very capable officer had come, and he took me to a room

16     which was the headquarters of the 1st Battalion.

17             I was introduced to that person.  He showed [realtime transcript

18     read in error "told"] me a Chetnik booklet number 2.  He asked me whether

19     I knew who had -- who was the owner of the Chetnik booklet number 1, and

20     I said I didn't, and it wasn't my flavour, as it were, that these people

21     had been conquered, and if we do have to fight, then we should keep the

22     profile of Serb officers.

23        Q.   Did he tell you who was the bearer of that Chetnik booklet,

24     booklet number 1?

25        A.   Certainly.  He said it was Duke Seselj.  And in view of my

Page 17953

 1     position and my ideology and everything I knew from 1978 and onwards, he

 2     was one of the leading enemies of the Socialist Federal Republic of

 3     Yugoslavia.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, on page 48,

 5     line 16 of the transcript, it says, "He told me," and I believe it should

 6     read, "He showed me."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, Mr. Petrovic, as always we do not fill in

 8     what it should be but we could verify whether "he told me" is right.

 9             You told us about Niko Bojic who sold petrol products.  And then

10     what did you then say?  It now reads:  "He told me, I bragged that a very

11     capable officer had come and he took me to a room which was the

12     headquarters of the 1st Battalion."

13             The part which reads, "He told me," is that accurate or is that a

14     mistake?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify it.

16             Yes, he had a petrol station.  He was the owner of a petrol

17     station.  He did not deal in petrol products illegally.  He was an

18     acquaintance and he worked in Zupanja.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking you to further explain to us but

20     just whether the words which we find on our transcript, "He told me,"

21     whether that's perhaps wrong and should be something else.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He told me that a very

23     capable officer had arrived in Obudovac and that he wanted to introduce

24     me to him.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

Page 17954

 1             I had a wrong line, as a matter of fact, where I sought the

 2     clarification.

 3             Did he tell you about the Chetnik booklet number 2 or did he show

 4     that to you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He showed it to me.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Petrovic, I made a mistake.  You referred me to line 16,

 8     whereas I started reading at line 13 where the words "he told me" also

 9     appear, but I didn't listen well enough to you.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Witness, sir, in addition to this one meeting at your friend's

13     place in Obudovac, did you have any other occasion to talk to Srecko

14     Radovanovic aka Debeli?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16        Q.   Could you tell us when and in what circumstances?

17        A.   After Colonel Nikolic left the area, because my elder son had

18     been injured, my younger son was still there, and my wife was a refugee,

19     I myself tried to leave Posavina.  In the meantime, the new commander of

20     the Tactical Group - at that time already a brigade - was appointed,

21     Lieutenant-Colonel Djordjevic, who was a local man, and his successor

22     Dragan Djordjevic, Crni; whereas, Srecko was appointed chief.  I told him

23     how threatened my village was.  It was -- we were expecting to be

24     attacked, and the structure of our fighting force was very bad.  There

25     were men between 70 -- to 70 years old.  I asked him to provide some

Page 17955

 1     reinforcement and I proposed an operation, that we should try and cut off

 2     a -- an operation -- or, rather, an action by the Croatian side --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

 4     last portion of his answer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last portion of your answer.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To cut off the communication

 7     between the Bosanska, Bijelo, and Dubrava villages, the road, which was

 8     used by forces that intended to take up positions, Croatian and Muslim

 9     forces.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

11             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Yes, please do so.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Witness, the meeting you had with Radovanovic, do you remember

14     what was said?  What did he say?  What did you say to him?  Can you

15     recall thank conversation?

16        A.   Yes, I can.  I can recall the conversation.

17             He said that they had to fight really hard to be appointed to

18     those duties, that they were the first people - members of the brigade -

19     who had not graduated from the Military Academy of the Yugoslav army.  He

20     told me that it was a great pity that I was on the wrong side, that I was

21     not a member of the SDS.  And only after I explained to him who I was and

22     that I had passed with my units without any losses, he told me that he

23     had been a police non-commissioned officer, that he was dismissed from

24     the police, that he had a very negative view of us, people who still

25     supported Tito's ideology, Milosevic's ideology, and that of the

Page 17956

 1     Communist party of Yugoslavia.  And he asked me once again to try and

 2     change my position.  And he even said that if I were to join this radical

 3     party that I might even be conferred a rank there.

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, line -- page 51,

 5     line 16, a party is mentioned there which is -- which was incorrectly

 6     interpreted.  So I propose that we ask the witness to clarify.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, sir, Radovanovic told you that you took the wrong side,

10     that you weren't a member of what party?

11        A.   The Serbian Radical Party, which had a Chetnik wing, a military

12     arm, as it were.

13        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  During these encounters of yours, did Srecko

14     Radovanovic, Debeli, mention that he had certain links with the state

15     security service of the Republic of Serbia?

16        A.   Quite the contrary.  He said that he was abhorred by the likes of

17     me and others who refused to accept the ideas promoted by Seselj.

18        Q.   Witness, sir, you mentioned an individual by the name of Crni,

19     Dragoljub Djordjevic, Crni.  Can you tell us did you have occasion to

20     meet with him?

21        A.   Yes.  I knew of him as Dragan.  This is the first time I hear of

22     him as Dragoljub.  If that is the individual from Vranje, the same Crni,

23     then that is him.  He was present in Donji Zabari at that meeting where

24     we were putting together the organisation and the staffing table and the

25     wherewithal for the public security station in Bosanski Samac.

Page 17957

 1        Q.   Witness, were you able to find out the political affiliation of

 2     this person, Crni, Dragan Djordjevic?

 3        A.   Well, I heard that the SDS organisation in Pelagicevo was far

 4     more progressive and organised than the one in Samac.  They were in touch

 5     with certain structures asking that I become the commander of the defence

 6     of Posavina, something that I would never agree to.  I do have special

 7     knowledge of certain issues but not the skill of commanding a large body

 8     of men.  So Djordjevic would be showing the membership card of the

 9     Serbian Radical Party when dealing with the local population.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again ask you, pauses between question and

11     answer, and answer and question, and a slower speed of speech.

12             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Witness, did you yourself have an opportunity to speak with

14     Djordjevic, aka Crni, about his political affiliation?

15        A.   Well, you asked me to give you brief answers.  Let me say that

16     when I came to see Debeli, I asked that I be announced to the commander

17     because that was the custom.  I came to see Dragan Djordjevic, Crni.  I

18     addressed him as a proper soldier, and he told me, You are in no way

19     bound to stand before me as a soldier would.

20             I said that I needed his assistance for Cerik because we didn't

21     have the necessary men or equipment.  He said that he would send the

22     intervention battalion of Pelagicevo to me.  They were 40-strong,

23     well-armed, and trained men --

24        Q.   Sorry.  I'm asking you about the political affiliation of

25     Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, if that's what you can tell us.  Did you have

Page 17958

 1     any personal knowledge of that and, if so, what sort of knowledge?

 2        A.   Well, if you will allow me to I will tell you.

 3             After this formal part of the encounter, we started chatting

 4     about where we were from and who we were, and then he said that he was a

 5     member of the radical party.  He showed me his membership card.  To be

 6     frank, I didn't stop to read it.  It would not have been of any interest

 7     to me.  He said that he had some information about me and that he was

 8     more than glad to accept me as his collaborator and that I was yet to

 9     benefit from my acquaintance with him.

10        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you said that at some point the JNA officers were

11     withdrawn from Bosnia.  When was that?

12        A.   On the 19th of May.  That was the order.  Admittedly, some of

13     them left on the 20th.  Only the officers who had been born in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina were allowed to stay.

15        Q.   What was the impact of the departure of the JNA officers on the

16     general situation in Samac?

17        A.   There was strong dissatisfaction expressed towards Yugoslavia and

18     the leadership.  There were citizens who left the area in protest,

19     especially those in -- living in the border areas opposite Croats or

20     Serbs -- Croats or Muslims.

21        Q.   Did there come a time when the 17th Tactical Group was reformed

22     into a different unit?

23        A.   Yes.  It became the 2nd Bosnian Brigade, headquartered in

24     Pelagicevo.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The 2nd Posavina Brigade, interpreter's

Page 17959

 1     correction.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You said that at some point Djordjevic, aka Crni, was appointed

 4     the commander of the brigade.  Can you tell us who pointed him to that

 5     post?

 6        A.   It was Blagoje Simic, with the help of the top SDS leadership.

 7        Q.   Do you know if the command of the East Bosnian Corps had any role

 8     to play in this appointment?

 9        A.   Yes.  Colonel Dencic, Ile Drincic -- Or Drncic [phoen] stayed

10     there -- overstayed his welcome there, and I suppose that was why he was

11     removed.

12        Q.   What sort of role did Dencic play in this appointment?

13        A.   Since amid the massacre, the army left Tuzla, he was the

14     commander of the East Bosnian Corps, and it had not yet been fully

15     organised and it was headquartered in Bijeljina.

16        Q.   Can you please focus on the appointment of Djordjevic, Crni.  Do

17     you or do you not know if Dencic had a role to play in that appointment?

18        A.   Yes, he did.

19        Q.   Would you kindly tell us what sort of role he had, if you know?

20        A.   Well, he agreed to a nomination from the SDS.  It would not have

21     come through without that nomination.

22        Q.   Can you tell us how you came to know about this?

23        A.   It's quite simple.  I was in communication with the security

24     officers in the East Bosnia Corps.  Later on my chief, Dusan Tanaskovic,

25     chief of security of the corps, was also someone I was in touch with.

Page 17960

 1             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

 2     believe that I have gone five minutes into our break already.  Or am I

 3     wrong in my calculations?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we had a bit of a late start.  So, to that

 5     extent, you are right and wrong, because we're here now for 70 minutes.

 6     But it might be a good time to take a break.

 7             We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, I received information during the break

11     that during the session before the break that Mr. Stanisic at times

12     didn't feel that well.  He was seen by the doctor.  I do understand that

13     the doctor does not oppose against continuing but invited me to be very

14     careful that if Mr. Stanisic would again feel not well where, as the

15     doctor said, he would very much like to continue at this moment, that if

16     circumstances are such that he would prefer not to continue, that he

17     addresses us immediately.

18             I do understand that it may be related to the new medication that

19     started yesterday.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  Everything you've said is my understanding of

21     the situation.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we can continue in this understanding.

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Mr. Djukic, earlier today you spoke about your links with the JNA

25     garrison in Brcko.  You mentioned Officer Petrovic.  You mentioned an

Page 17961

 1     officer in closed session.  And can you please tell us whether, other

 2     than these two JNA officers, you had contacts with any other Brcko

 3     garrison officers at that time?

 4        A.   Yes, with Captain Mitric.  I was asked by Petrovic to have

 5     negotiations with the Croats, specifically with Ivica Samtovac [phoen], a

 6     reserve major of the Yugoslav People's Army who joined the Croatian

 7     forces.  Our villages Vukvik [phoen], Pukovac [phoen], and others with

 8     about 3.000 citizens were in a blockade and these people needed help, and

 9     so he was helping us with the sick people, with pregnant women and so on.

10     I was conducting these negotiations were actually quite correct.

11        Q.   Can you please tell us in which service of the Brcko garrison did

12     this captain work?

13        A.   He worked in the intelligence and security organ.

14        Q.   Mr. Djukic, did you at any point in time meet a person called

15     Zika Ivanovic in Brcko?

16        A.   I did meet Zika Crnogorac.

17        Q.   Are you able help us?  Zika Crnogorac.  Is that his nickname,

18     Crnogorac?  And is that his -- and is his last name Ivanovic,

19     Zika Ivanovic?

20        A.   Yes, that is something that I would learn later.

21        Q.   And are you able to tell us where you met Zika Crnogorac?

22        A.   One time I went to see Captain Mitric so that we would go to the

23     line of separation between Grbavica and Donji Rahici where we were

24     supposed to have a meeting at a private house with Mr. Samtovac in front

25     of the office of the boss who had already gone to Belgrade.  I was asked

Page 17962

 1     to go to Brcko.  When I came to the garrison in order to get into

 2     Mr. Petrovic's office, always there was a reserve officer --

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, I think there

 4     there was --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  -- something that Mr. Petrovic said and I got a

 7     little confused myself.  I think Mr. Petrovic said something and it

 8     wasn't recorded.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's all the result of a lack of control over the

10     speed of speech.

11             May I take it that you had tried to inspire the witness to slow

12     down.  Is that -- yes.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That does not -- that does not come as a surprise.

15             Witness, your evidence is important for us, so, therefore, allow

16     us to understand it.  And the only way for us to understand it and to

17     look at it again after you have now given your testimony is that reading

18     the transcript.  But you really should slow down in order to avoid that

19     your evidence will be lost due to lack of -- well, I wouldn't call it

20     discipline, but at least a lack of control over the way in which you

21     present your answers.

22             Mr. Petrovic, I leave it to you where you want to resume.  And if

23     it continues this way, I, although reluctantly, will introduce the

24     traffic agent system, which is I just stop anyone to start speaking

25     unless I've given a sign.  I would rather not do it, but, if need be, I

Page 17963

 1     will.

 2             Mr. Petrovic, you may resume your question.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you told us that at one point in time you met Zika

 5     Crnogorac, that you had gone to see officer Petrovic?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   All right.  Can you please repeat your whole answer to my

 8     question when and how did you meet Zika Crnogorac?

 9        A.   I was summoned to the Brcko garrison to the intelligence and

10     security organ.  At Captain Petrovic's office, who had gone as an active

11     officer to Belgrade, the said Mitric was working at the time.  In front

12     of his office, there was a person that I did not know who was sitting at

13     the desk in front of the office, and there were two young men in front of

14     him in dark uniforms.  They were holding Scorpions and they had their

15     fingers on the trigger.

16             I said that I was going to see Mitric, to which they did not

17     react at all, and I went.  Captain Mitric explained to me that

18     Zika Crnogorac with two or three men, elite members according to him, was

19     at the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of Brcko and that he

20     had already done some work at the secretariat by confiscating robbed or

21     looted property.  Just that much.

22        Q.   Mr. Djukic, and did you find out if Zika Crnogorac arrived before

23     Brcko was taken, during the capture of it, or after it had been captured

24     by the Serbian forces; do you know which?

25        A.   He came later once the late Savic left; Savic, aka Mauzer.

Page 17964

 1        Q.   Did I understand you correctly as having said that he arrived

 2     after Brcko was captured?

 3        A.   Yes, you understood me correctly.

 4        Q.   Are you able to tell us if you know if there was some sort of

 5     agreement between the Brcko War Presidency in view of the fact that you

 6     mentioned that Zika was in the War Presidency of the town of Brcko?

 7        A.   I do know this, but this is something that I found out later once

 8     I took over permanent duties in the intelligence and security organ in

 9     the Bijeljina Corps.  We were given the assignment of checking the work

10     of Djordje Ristanic, the president of the Brcko Crisis Staff, and it was

11     then along with the other documents indicating to some delinquencies that

12     we found some sort of contract with a unit that was supposed to control

13     the entrance and exits from Brcko.  We did not continue our processing

14     because the political structures asserted to the command that if we

15     continue to work to see whether there were any violations by Ristanic we

16     would cause dissatisfaction in town.

17        Q.   Witness, sir, did you hear anything about Zika Crnogorac's

18     behaviour in Brcko at this time that we're talking about?

19        A.   Yes, I did hear.  Yes, I did hear of that.  My cousin, Obren

20     Petrovic, told me that Zika, with another three men, came to the

21     secretariat asking to look at the files of more expensive luxury cars and

22     some other items, which had been illegally taken from well-off Muslim

23     houses in the Buric Brdo area of Brcko which was called the Dedinje of

24     Brcko.

25        Q.   First of all, this cousin of yours, can you please tell us which

Page 17965

 1     structure he worked in and how did he assess Zika's engagement, positive

 2     or negative?  What was his position on that in the conversation?

 3        A.   Well, my cousin is a teacher and he was mobilised in the reserve

 4     forces.  He was desperate because of the crimes and the looting of

 5     property from non-Serb citizens because he had grown up with Muslims and

 6     Croats, and he felt that Zika was correct and that ...

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the end of the

 8     sentence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

10     answer.  You said your cousin was desperate because the crimes and the

11     looting of property from non-Serb citizens, because he had grown up with

12     Muslims and Croats, and he felt that Zika was ...

13             Could you please repeat what you then said?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was acting properly.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And do you know if Zika arrested some of those people who were

17     committing crimes against Muslims and Croats in Brcko?

18        A.   Yes, he did make arrests, with the remark that these people who

19     were being taken into custody were being taken into custody unlawfully.

20        Q.   And do you know if Zika had any conflicts with Ristanic?

21        A.   Yes, I know about that but I don't know any details.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic, part of one of the previous questions

23     is not perfectly clear to me.

24             You said Zika came to the secretariat and asked for files of

25     expensive cars.  For what purpose did he want to have a look at those

Page 17966

 1     files?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had been stolen.  They

 3     disappeared from the parking lot, or, better said, from the courtyard of

 4     the secretariat; these expensive vehicles that had been temporarily

 5     seized from certain persons.  Better said, abandoned vehicles of Croats

 6     and Muslims who, out of fear, had escaped from Brcko, or were possibly

 7     taken to Luka.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do you know what this then resulted?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later, certain investigations were

10     conducted, cases were processed so that those files or cases would appear

11     before this International Tribunal, but only two such cases actually made

12     it here.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So the purpose was to investigate and to prosecute

14     those who had stolen those vehicles; is that correctly understood?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did understand that correctly.

16             And when I finish my testimony here, I have an appointment for an

17     interview with Prosecutor Mujkanovic in Brcko on the topic of war crimes,

18     even though I had given my information to international representatives

19     about grave violations of international laws of war and customs of war,

20     in Brcko.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   You mentioned that two of those perpetrators had been tried

24     before this Tribunal.  Can you tell us who that was?

25        A.   Adolf Jelisic, Goran, and Ranko Cesinic.  And this is just a

Page 17967

 1     coincidental sample.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 3             Do you know whether in these attempts by Zika Crnogorac to bring

 4     some law and order, whether he also engaged some local people there?

 5        A.   Yes.  There was a group from the Brcko Radnicki settlement, or

 6     labourer settlement, Grcici [phoen].  And even a nephew of mine who used

 7     to be a police officer in Baranja, even he was a member of that units for

 8     a while.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness

10     please be shown P1432.  And could we have the first pages in both

11     versions, please.

12        Q.   Witness, I will read it out to you.  This is an interim report of

13     the command of the Eastern Bosnian Corps from its intelligence organ.

14     It's dated 29th September, 1992, and I will just read out the portion to

15     you, the last sentence of the first large -- first big paragraph on page

16     1, where it says:

17             "The work and actions are documented and they had been --

18     Zika Ivanovic, aka Crnogorac, prepared and analysed documentation on the

19     work on the actions, and we believe that part of the documentation is at

20     the Brcko police station."

21             Could you please expand a bit?  What kind of documents or

22     documentation is this a reference to?  And how do you read this portion

23     of the report?

24        A.   I believe this is a report that was submitted by my colleague,

25     Captain Cuturic, an active-duty JNA officer who was temporarily in

Page 17968

 1     Bijeljina because he was -- he was born in Bijeljina.  And if we can just

 2     take a look and see whether there is his signature there.  That is

 3     Captain Cuturic, aka Sorica [phoen].

 4             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we see the last

 5     page of this document in both versions, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djukic, this is -- the signatory is the chief of the

 7     intelligence organ, Captain First Class Simeon Cuturic.  Is that person

 8     the person that you were referring to?

 9        A.   Yes.  But it's possible that this was an error.  He was

10     temporarily chief there -- or, rather, acting chief, and when I came

11     there, it was a major who was in that position.  Now as for Cuturic, I

12     knew him and I even had seen this report when I returned after being

13     treated in Banja Koviljaca.

14        Q.   Could you tell us -- could you tell us, since you had occasion to

15     see this report earlier, the documentation mentioned there that had been

16     prepared by Zika, what was that a reference to?  What did those documents

17     refer to?

18        A.   They referred to Article 104 from the penal code of the SFRY that

19     dealt with crimes of killings or murder, theft of property that was not

20     requisitioned and used for military purposes, and so on.

21             Now two Kaurinovic brothers from the Brcko SUP, who were very

22     honest and decent criminal officers, they, too, told me about these

23     crimes and the documentation, and they assisted him in preparing it.

24        Q.   You say they assisted him.  Whom do you mean?  Whom did the

25     Kaurinovic help?

Page 17969

 1        A.   They helped Zika.  There was a form of co-operation between them

 2     in this respect.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Witness, sir.  Tell us, please, were you wounded at

 4     some point in time; and when was that?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was wounded from the left bank of the Sava, in

 6     municipality of Zupanja, on the 18th of August at 10.15.  And I had

 7     difficulties, as I was sitting here, so I had to apologise.  I have

 8     difficulties getting up from the chair.  I have problems in my left knee.

 9     So I was treated until the 17th of November, at which time I was assigned

10     to the corps.

11        Q.   Could you just tell us the year, please.  You said 18th of

12     August through 17th of November of what year?

13        A.   Well, 1992.  I'm sorry, I was talking about 1992, so I just --

14     this was implicit.

15        Q.   Could you please tell us this:  "You mentioned until I was

16     assigned to the corps," which corps was this?

17        A.   The East Bosnia Corps, which was headquartered in Bijeljina.

18        Q.   Mr. Djukic, did anyone visit you while you were hospitalised and

19     being treated for the wounds -- for the wounding in August?

20        A.   Well, I had already -- almost recovered, and I was working at the

21     Corp.  I was supposed to move -- to be transferred to Han Pijesak to the

22     main headquarters.  However, a fragment remained in my leg and I had to

23     go to the hospital to have it removed.  This was in February 1993, when

24     the shrapnel fragment was removed.

25             I received a visit from -- by a minister from the Republic of

Page 17970

 1     Serbian Krajina, Mr. Milan Martic, and inspector Radovan Kostic, aka

 2     Rade.

 3        Q.   On that occasion did Martic make any officers?

 4        A.   Yes.  He explained to me that the situation was very difficult

 5     within his ministry.  He told me that there were a lot of problems and

 6     clashes of various departments, and he felt that I would be able to

 7     consolidate the situation there, and he said that, if necessary, he would

 8     take this up with President Karadzic.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, after that conversation, did you -- were you

10     assigned to some position within the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

11        A.   Yes.  By approval of the new commander in Bijeljina,

12     Colonel Petrija [phoen] Koljevic.  I was appointed as chief inspector of

13     police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  It would take too long if I

14     were to describe all the conditions for that.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Or what the

16     circumstances were.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Djukic, could you tell us -- could you tell

19     us what -- what was your job?  What was your ambit of work?

20        A.   Well, all the work that had to do with public security; in other

21     words, crime, public law and order, traffic, road traffic, controls and

22     checks on the river, the Danube river, and everything else.  It would

23     take too long to list them all.

24        Q.   Mr. Djukic, when did you take up this post in the Republic of

25     Serbian Krajina?

Page 17971

 1        A.   The 15th of March, 1993.

 2        Q.   Mr. Djukic, while you were in this post, can you tell us where

 3     you were headquartered?

 4        A.   The Republic of the Serbian Krajina had part of its ministry in

 5     Vukovar.  It was a detached department.  I was in the Radnicki Dom in

 6     Borovo settlement near Vukovar.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  In Borovo Selo, interpreter's correction.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   While you were in eastern Slavonia, did you have any work-related

10     matters with Ilok, the town of Ilok?

11        A.   Well, not just Ilok.  I have to clarify.  I was supposed to

12     improve the way the police worked and I had to inspect all organisational

13     unit, inspect their work, including the department in Drnis.

14        Q.   At some point in time were you assigned a task that involved

15     Ilok, when was it, and who assigned it to you?

16        A.   Well, I only received a telegram from the ministry that I should

17     cancel all my other planned activities, that there were serious

18     difficulties, and that I would soon receive a special unit of the

19     Republic of the Serbian Krajina, its corps members, headed by

20     Colonel Krsto Zarkovic.

21        Q.   Can you tell us when this was and whether you've learned what

22     those planned activities were regarding Ilok?

23        A.   Well, this was around the 15th of January, 1994.  We were briefed

24     on what the problems were, and we developed or drafted the activities

25     ourselves.  At the RSK ministry, there was a working group organised.

Page 17972

 1     Zarko --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last name.

 3        A.   -- and me were there, and since this had to do with crime in the

 4     area between Backa and Ilok --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Zarko who?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was Krsto Zarkovic.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 17973











11 Pages 17973-17978 redacted. Private session.
















Page 17979

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             I need a couple of minutes, Mr. Petrovic, at the end of the day.

14     Unless you have one or two questions which would conclude your

15     examination for today, perhaps we'd already excuse the witness.

16             Could you give us an indication as to how much time you would

17     still need tomorrow?

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will need another

19     half-hour tomorrow.  Perhaps I could put two more questions now to round

20     off a topic that I've started.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you limit it to two questions, because,

22     otherwise, I'm in trouble with those assisting us.

23             Two questions, Mr. Petrovic.

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you said that they were part of the Slavonia Baranja


Page 17980

 1     Corps.  Do you know who members of this battalion, the Skorpions received

 2     their orders from?

 3        A.   On certain issues, from General Loncar or the officer authorised

 4     by him; on the issue of providing security for the oil plant, from the

 5     director of the oil company; and on some other specific issues, from

 6     Milanovic.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was just that one

 8     question.  I thank you, and I will resume my examination tomorrow.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

11             Mr. Djukic, we will soon adjourn for the day.  Could you please

12     keep your earphones on for a second.

13             Yes.  Yes, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak

14     with anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your

15     testimony, whether that is the testimony you've given today, or whether

16     that is testimony still to be given tomorrow and/or on Thursday.

17             Is that clear to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is clear.  I apologise for

19     speeding.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We do not give speeding tickets here, but it's

21     appreciated that you are aware of the problem.  We'd like to see you back

22     tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.  You may follow the

23     usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Very briefly, on the basis of informal


Page 17981

 1     communications, the Chamber learned that Witness DFS-016 has -- will not

 2     be called by the Simatovic Defence.  This was due to new disclosure.  If

 3     it was late disclosure, the Rules impose a duty to disclose the

 4     information to the Chamber as well.  I'd leave it to some extent to the

 5     parties, especially if it's inculpatory evidence contained in that

 6     disclosure then I would not insist on it at this very moment.  Perhaps

 7     you could discuss it with the Simatovic Defence.

 8             At the same time, the Simatovic Defence heavily relied on this

 9     disclosure for the reasons why they couldn't called Witness DFS-016,

10     which means that it has an impact on the proceedings.

11             I leave that for the time being.

12             As far as DFS-010 is concerned, an application was made on the

13     29th of February to hear the evidence of that witness through videolink.

14     It was a rather late application.  We received additional information

15     yesterday.  It was filed yesterday.  We received the response from the

16     Prosecution today.  The Chamber has decided that we grant the request for

17     hearing that evidence through videolink ; reasons to follow.

18             As far as timing is concerned, since Witness DFS-012 is not

19     called, the Chamber would expect that we would hear that evidence by

20     Witness DFS-010 through videolink on the 13th of March.

21             Is that what you've prepared for?  I see that the Simatovic

22     Defence is nodding yes.

23             Do you have any other witnesses for the remainder of that week?

24             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will be ready for

25     DFS-010, as indicated by you.  We have no other witnesses scheduled for

Page 17982

 1     that week, and I think that we have extensively explained why and how.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This was the urgent matter which we had to

 3     deal with at this very moment; that is, our decision and the timing.

 4     Further scheduling issues we may address later.

 5             We stand adjourned, and we resume on Tuesday, the 13th of March,

 6     at quarter past -- no, no.  Of course, that's now for next week.

 7     Tomorrow, the 7th of March, at 9.00 in the morning in this same

 8     courtroom, II.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of

11                           March, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.