1 Wednesday, 7 March 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 Good morning, Mr. Djukic.
15 Mr. Djukic, I would like to remind you that you're still bound by
16 the solemn declaration you have given yesterday; that is, that you'll
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 Mr. Bakrac.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There is a problem in the
20 booths, a technical problem in the booths. No power or something. We've
21 called the technicians in.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And that results in the witness not receiving
23 translation. Is that -- apparently, looking at your face ...
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So ...
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, you hear me in English?
3 THE WITNESS: Nein.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll -- do you receive any interpretation.
5 Then we'll have to wait.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 THE INTERPRETER: We have temporarily resolved the problem.
8 Pending a technician's arrival, we can probably start.
9 MR. GROOME: The interpreter has just said something,
10 Your Honour. Interpreter has just said that we can -- they have
11 temporarily resolved the problem [Microphone not activated].
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that the problem has been
13 temporarily resolved?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, from the B/C/S booth.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately not for us. We are
17 not receiving interpretation B/C/S -- no, now we can hear interpretation
18 in B/C/S.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I will do the final check.
20 Mr. Djukic, can you hear me in a language you understand?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you very well.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can continue.
23 I then repeat what I said earlier, is that I would like to remind
24 you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given
25 yesterday that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
1 the truth.
2 Mr. Petrovic will now resume.
3 Mr. Petrovic, you announced yesterday that you would need -- was
4 it 20 minutes or half an hour?
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked for half an
7 JUDGE ORIE: You have half an hour. You may proceed.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: PETAR DJUKIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examination by Mr. Petrovic: [Continued]
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djukic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I would like to remind you again at the start, the problem -- of
16 the problem that we had yesterday, the speed of speech and overlapping,
17 so please try to remember to pause and to speak more slowly.
18 A. Well, I believe that I've already adjusted.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 Mr. Djukic, we whether briefly now go back to the Ilok events.
21 You spoke about them yesterday extensively. And in that context, let me
22 ask you do you know who Colonel Dusan Grahovac is?
23 A. Yes. He is the chief of the security organ of the Slavonia
24 Baranja Corps.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we take a look
1 at document 2D168. This is a report compiled by Colonel Dusan Grahovac,
2 the security and intelligence organ of the Slavonia Baranja Command --
3 Corps Command.
4 If we could look at -- we have the first page before us, but
5 could we see page 2, please, in both versions, both in B/C/S and in
7 Q. Mr. Witness I will read out a portion of this document and ask
8 you whether you know anything about this incident.
9 "On the 27th of February, 1993, at 1500 hours, the Catholic
10 church in Ilok was blocked by the Red Berets in the presence of
11 Vojin Susa, minister of justice in the RSK. And this was done after
12 information leaked that the Catholic priest Fra Marko Malovic, on the
13 premises of the church received certain persons. The church was searched
14 and no one was found."
15 Mr. Djukic, this event as described here occurred a few days
16 before your arrival in the area. Could you please tell us, once you
17 arrived that area, did you hear anything about the events mentioned by
18 Grahovac here?
19 A. I didn't hear anything about it. Later on, I had occasion -- I
20 had occasion to communicate with Fra Marko, and the -- the priest there,
21 and we had very good relations, but I didn't know anything about this
23 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know anything about the second part of
24 this report. I'd like to ask you about that.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's under 3 in
1 the middle of that paragraph where it reads:
2 "The Red Berets from Ilok were reformed and now they were group
3 AA and placed under the command on the 45th Brigade. And they operate as
4 an IDG. So far, they have done all the training in shooting, with
5 side-arms, and they are also being trained as part of the 453rd
6 Mechanised Brigade from Sremska Mitrovica."
7 Witness, sir, could you help us? Do you know which 4 --
8 45th [as interpreted] brigade is referred to here?
9 A. Well, this is the brigade that I mentioned yesterday, and I
10 believe it -- this relates to the same unit that was mentioned yesterday
11 as having been formed by President Hadzic, at the head of which was
12 Susan [phoen]. The only thing I don't know is what Sremska Mitrovica has
13 to do with it. That part of know nothing about.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the screens
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Your Honour, I would like to tender this document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters inform us that they do not
20 have their screen on. Is there a way to resolve that?
21 THE INTERPRETER: We can work without the screens but we just
22 wanted to make you aware of the issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I'd like to urge our technicians to
24 resolve that problem as well.
25 Ms. Marcus.
1 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, unless I'm mistaken, this document
2 wasn't noticed to us in advance, so I'd like some time to look into it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, is that the case?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that we
5 noticed all the documents. We notified the Prosecution, and if we made
6 an omission, my apologies. And, of course, although this is a document
7 on our 65 ter list and had obviously been received by the Prosecution, we
8 don't mind if we have a moment for the Prosecutor to get acquainted with
10 MS. MARCUS: Perhaps it could be MFI'd so I could like into it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, the number assigned to this
12 document would be?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D763. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D763 is marked for identification. If possible,
15 could we hear later today from you, Ms. Marcus.
16 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Witness, sir, we will now go back to where we left off yesterday;
20 namely, the Skorpions and your activity in that respect.
21 Mr. Djukic, at one point, were you assigned to inspect the
22 operations of the oil industry in Krajina?
23 A. Yes. I was in charge of operations because I am familiar with
24 police work and crime investigations.
25 Now, in this particular case, two inspectors arriving from Knin.
1 They were economists, and they were able to inspect the financial
2 dealings of the company; whereas, I was only there in order to assist
3 them in drafting a report and possibly a criminal complaint, if that was
5 Q. Mr. Djukic, were there any reasons to expect that there would be
6 some sort of clash with the security of the oil industry in Dzeletovci?
7 A. Yes. Slobodan Medic, also known as Boca, informed the duty
8 officer at the Secretariat of The interior in Vukovar, which was the
9 organ that had jurisdiction in that area, as well as subject matter
10 jurisdiction. He said that he would not allow the inspectors to enter
11 the premises of the NIT.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I -- again, I have an issue about
14 notice. There was absolutely no notice about this report, about this
15 investigation the witness undertook. The only thing that's mentioned
16 about the Skorpions is that the witness, having been chief police
17 inspector, knows that the Skorpions were a military formation and will
18 confirm that the Skorpions and Arkan's unit were not units of the RS
19 DB -- of Republic of Serbia DB. That was all that was noticed about the
21 Now, the witness's involvement in this kind of investigation is
22 something that we certainly could have investigated had we known that
23 this was going to be part of his evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is here
1 to explain how and why they were not within the remit of the accused.
2 And these are the facts that point to that effect.
3 I did not expect my -- I don't think my colleague expected that
4 they would come and -- that a witness would come and say, no, they didn't
5 do this, or they did that. I -- the witness can only present the facts
6 as he sees them, on the basis of which the Trial Chamber can then draw
7 relevant conclusions.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
9 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
10 I have to say, generally speaking -- with the 65 ters of the
11 Simatovic Defence, generally speaking we do have quite a bit of detail.
12 I have to say that.
13 I think this particular 65 ter summary was very lacking in
14 detail. It -- the time-periods are unclear, the -- what the witness will
15 actually say is very unclear, and these are very generalised topics.
16 In this particular instance, Your Honours, this is -- this is
17 quite a -- a very direct example. I didn't stand up again yesterday;
18 although, a lot of the evidence, I would say, was basically a surprise to
19 use because we didn't know it from the summary. We are hesitant to make
20 this kind of submission so are -- we understand that a lot of the
21 information comes in the summaries. In this instance, Your Honour,
22 really we had no notice of this particular aspect which I find quite a
23 critical aspect.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, there seems to be some merit in the
25 observations made by Ms. Marcus.
1 Now, I suggest that we continue for the time being, and that
2 Ms. Marcus will consider whether or not she needs more time to prepare
3 for cross-examination; or, for a re-call of the witness at a later stage.
4 We'll consider that once we've heard the evidence.
5 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So you may proceed, Mr. Petrovic. But what was just
7 read to us as what the witness could tell us certainly does not -- is
8 not -- his operational activities, his investigations, but rather general
10 You may proceed.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Witness, sir, the last thing you said to us was that Medic said
13 that he would not allow inspectors to enter the premises of the NIK, the
14 oil industry of Krajina.
15 Can you now tell us, please, did you know -- or did you inform
16 the military authorities about the activities that you intended to
17 undertake at the NIK?
18 A. Your Honours, if I may just clarify something. Even had the
19 Defence asked me --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the --
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I have to interfere. Could you please just answer my question.
23 A. Well, then, I will clarify there was no reason for me to inform
24 the military authorities that I was about to conduct an investigation of
25 some economic issues in an economic company.
1 Q. Mr. Djukic, at some point in time, did you go to Dzeletovci for
2 some talks?
3 A. Yes, Zarkovic suggested that we go there. And to finally resolve
4 this issue with Boca, I do have to go back, I think -- if you understood
5 correctly what I said, that there were two teams -- or, rather, two ways
6 in which the Skorpions acted. One of them was a military arm and the
7 other one was classic security, which is part of the interior, Ministry
8 of Interior. I wanted to avoid a conflict - although we had an elite
9 unit; Bosko Drazic, who was a specialist, was at the head of it - and I
10 proposed that Zarkovic and I go to Dzeletovci unarmed, just the two of
12 We arrived there, and we found these people very rough -- their
13 feathers were very ruffled. They were fully armed. They were upset
14 about our being there, why were we sending people, what did we want, they
15 were working for the state and so on. I presented all the facts to them.
16 I said that this had nothing to do with him. And I don't want to go over
17 the entire conversation then, but I had three meetings with him. I
18 resolved all three of them without the use of force, and I have to stress
19 that my strong side is that I was able to resolve matters by just talking
20 to people where others would have to use force.
21 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, can we get a time-period that this
22 refers to? At least a year, perhaps a month.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Djukic, when was this control ordered by the Knin leadership
1 and when did you had this first conversation with Medic about an
2 inspection of the business practices of NIK?
3 A. I said that yesterday that the action was planned and initiated
4 on the 15th of January, 1994, and lasted until the 5th of February of the
5 same year.
6 Q. Thank you. And after you talked with Medic, was it possible to
7 inspect the NIK company and what were the results of the inspection and
8 what happened after that?
9 A. The government of the Krajina simply established by the income to
10 the budget that the funds were not coming in at the previous pace. The
11 inspectors determined that there were fictional payments to a
12 construction firm from Ruma. It was a large amount of money. I don't
13 remember exactly what it was, and that the Skorpions and other workers
14 who were -- worked on physical and technical security besides salaries,
15 which were routed through the SDK, the public accounting service, they
16 were also paid significant amounts in cash personally.
17 Then we found out receipts from which we saw that Slobodan Medic
18 and his team received a certain quantity of fuel for their vehicles and
19 sometimes also for their friends. Criminal charges were submitted
20 against Dusan who is from Ruma and also Vukasin Egic, the contractor from
21 Ruma. Already he was quite well off at that time in Novi Sad, who had
22 built for his needs and for his business a large number of real estate.
23 The charges were submitted to the district public prosecutor office, Egic
24 resorted to his immunity because he was a deputy of the assembly of
25 the -- assembly of the Serbian Krajina. It was suggested that the
1 assembly at the first session revokes this immunity with the remark that
2 this was a subject which was liable for prison.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
4 MS. MARCUS: Yes. At page 10, lines 18 and 19, the witness
5 mentioned some dates which were not recorded in the transcript. Could
6 that please be repeated.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat. You said, "I said that the," and
8 then a part is missing, "and lasted until the 5th of February of the same
9 year." Could you repeat what you said at the beginning of that answer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 15th of January we finished in Ilok
11 and we moved to Dzeletovci.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrovic.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Can you just please tell us the year?
15 A. 1994.
16 Q. And -- thank you. And can you tell us for the transcript so that
17 it's all clear who Egic is, what was his post?
18 A. Vukasin Egic is the previous director of the oil industry. He
19 went to Novi Sad with his family, but he continued with the new director
20 to get involved in dealings to appropriate funds. The problem was in the
21 fact that we extracted raw oil and gave it to Pancevo, and then you could
22 never control how much oil was extracted and how many additives were
24 Q. Thank you, Witness. You mentioned something about financing of
25 the Skorpions unit. I would like to ask you, if you know, who the
1 Skorpions received their salaries from?
2 A. They received a very modest salary from the Army of the Republic
3 of the Krajina, and they also received cash without any record being made
4 of it from NIK. They would receive that at their cashier's office.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you know if any of the high-ranking
6 officials of the Serbian MUP visited Medic while you were in that area?
7 A. Medic's house was in Sremski Banovci. It's a short distance away
8 from Dzeletovci. It's a prominent respectable family. His father was
9 the king of cattle, and many officials from Sid and Mitrovica would stop
10 by to visit him and those from the public security service. A frequent
11 guest of his was Radovan Stojicic, Badza, with the mediation of a certain
12 Milovan Terzic.
13 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know if any point the Skorpions were sent to
14 the Kordun front?
15 A. Yes, I do know they were sent to the Kordun front.
16 Q. Do you know how this came about? How did it come about that they
17 left for the Kordun front?
18 A. This was a decision by the Main Staff of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska in Knin, in Krajina, and it was justified by the fact
20 that western Bosnia and Fikret Abdic needed to be reinforced because if
21 our position -- so that our position in Kordun could be strengthened.
22 Q. Mr. Djukic, what was the rank that Medic held, if he had any
23 rank, when you met him first; and did he, at any point receive a
25 A. The first time I saw Medic in uniform was in the rank of major.
1 The next time he was lieutenant-colonel. I don't know what his previous
2 advancement in the army was like.
3 Q. And do you know if there were any reactions to the promotion of
4 Medic to the rank of lieutenant-colonel?
5 A. Yes, there were reactions. The association of military war
6 veterans of Srem sent a letter to a number of an addresses, including
7 that of General Momcilo Perisic. He was, at the time, the chief of the
8 armed forces. I think it was still Yugoslavia at that time. Actually,
9 no, I know that it was for a fact.
10 Q. Are you able to tell us what the letter said; if you know?
11 A. I do. That -- it said that he had been given the rank of
12 Vojvoda, Stanko, that Miroljub Vujovic was given a rank, this Medic was
13 given a rank, and I can also mention that all three of them were tried
14 for war crimes and sentenced to long prison sentences. The surname of
15 Stanko was Vujanovic.
16 Q. Witness, can you please tell us in a few sentences only how long
17 the Skorpions stayed in the Srem Baranja area and when and under which
18 conditions did they leave?
19 A. The Skorpions left in September 1996 at the insistence of the
20 transitional administer, Mr. Klein, who wanted to expel them from the
21 area because the population there objected to their behaviour. Their
22 arrogant behaviour.
23 Q. Are you able to tell us how they left?
24 A. Well, I went with a couple of associates and I told them that the
25 oil wells were closed, that they had nothing more to do there, that they
1 were not needed. On the 15th of June we were completely disarmed
2 pursuant to the resolution, and no army other than police forces and the
3 military component of the UNTAES was permitted to stay.
4 Q. Mr. Djukic, you said that the wells were closed. Do you know
5 upon whose instructions they were shut down?
6 A. They were shut down by Milanovic, Milan Milanovic, aka Mrgud.
7 Vojislav Stanimirovic, the president of the district council, and
8 President Goran Hadzic went to Mrgud, and together they asked to be
9 received by President Slobodan Milosevic. And they told him,
10 Mr. President, how are we going to live? What are we going to live on?
11 We don't have any more oil. And the president asked them -- he asked
12 Mrgud, Mrgud what is that? And he said ironically, The president, just
13 that little one. And that's how we were left without income. It's true
14 that Mr. Klein insisted on that, too, and he sent information to Franjo
15 Tudjman that he was giving him the oil fields or the wells as a present
16 for his birthday.
17 Q. Witness, do you know if any unit by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, if
18 any of his units were there in that area when you came to Srem and
19 Slavonia and Baranja?
20 A. In April, only a month after I had arrived, the minister,
21 Milan Martic, convened the political action board - all the more
22 responsible people from the Dalj municipality. And he said, As of today,
23 the entry is banned to the region of Republika Srpska as a whole to
24 Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and three other active inspectors of the
25 Ministry of Interior of the state of Serbia. I note it was public
1 security, and the inspectors were from Zagreb, which means that they were
2 under my control before, under my command.
3 Q. And after this decision by Minister Martic, did any people -- any
4 Arkan's people remain in the area? Did he continue to develop his jobs
5 there in the area?
6 A. Yes. For the purposes of the operation of his company, which was
7 properly registered, he planted some watermelon fields which was
8 controlled by Milanovic. There were people of his there who were
9 maintaining his personal buildings in Erdut, but it was a small number of
10 them. They were not in uniform and did not cause any problems, other
11 than some red caps that they were wearing, which were turned back to
13 Q. Mr. Djukic at any point in time during that year, was there a
14 reconciliation between Arkan and Minister Martic?
15 A. Yes. With the mediation of Milanovic they met in Belgrade. They
16 exchanged kisses. And Minister Martic allowed him to return but not to
17 Erdut but to a holiday resort of the Osijek Elektroslavonija, which is
18 right near the bridge when you cross over from Vojvodina to the Srem
19 Baranja area. This was also a very nice facility.
20 Q. Can you please tell us exactly where Arkan was allowed to go back
21 again with his men? Just that location.
22 A. It's Erdut. But not where he was earlier in the centre for the
23 TO centre. This is where our units were located now and where we were
24 having our seminars, but he was near the bridge close to the Danube
25 river, close to the holiday resort of the electric utility company.
1 Q. When you returned to the area, who was commanding Arkan's unit;
2 do you know?
3 A. It was Loncar. Although he was always closer to Milanovic. They
4 didn't have any particular disagreements, Milanovic and Loncar, although
5 Loncar was a little bit uncomfortable because he had to be subordinated
6 to practically a civilian.
7 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know if any part of the Serbian Volunteer
8 Guards of Arkan's were sent to the Kordun front?
9 A. Yes. They were sent there together. As I explained already, a
10 part of the regular police force were sent, eight of whom were killed,
11 and that minister -- deputy minister, Rade Kostic, too. On the 11th
12 November, the policemen were there -- were killed. And on the 12th of
13 November, Rade Kostic was, and the circumstances of that were never
15 Q. Witness, when you say there were sent together, who do you mean?
16 A. Well, I mean Medic. I mentioned him before. I meant his unit.
17 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you know where Pajzos is. Do you know what it is?
18 A. It's a prominent building, a little bit neglected. It was
19 neglected then. But it's been 15 years since then, perhaps it's been
20 fixed up.
21 Q. And do you know what happened at Pajzos? What was there when you
22 came to that area?
23 A. Electronic equipment. It was a listening centre, and I was not
24 responsible for that centre nor was I well versed in what was going on
25 there. I did not have access to it. I as the chief inspector of the
1 Croatian police could not enter this cryptographic centre because you
2 needed a special permit and signature in order to go in.
3 Q. Yes, Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock. And this is why
4 perhaps why I'm rushing a little bit.
5 Mr. Djukic, are you able to tell us, do you know who this
6 wire-tapping centre belonged to; if you know?
7 A. Yes, I do. To the Army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina
8 and partly to the state security of our republic.
9 Q. And do you know who provided the security for Pajzos when you
10 were in the area?
11 A. Soldiers in camouflage uniform.
12 Q. Just two more questions, Witness. In 1995, some police units
13 from the Republic of Serbia came to the area.
14 A. Yes, I know about that. The police brigade in Erdut had -- half
15 of their active police component had to be separated off because we were
16 expecting a military action from Croatia and two people --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- agreed with the chief of the
19 public security service, Vlastimir Djordjevic. They made an agreement
20 with him. And General Obrad Stevanovic was sent with about a thousand
21 policemen. These were employees who were working on regular duties but
22 were put together in special police units, and these units are formed
23 according to the rota principle; a secretariat would provide ten, another
24 secretariat would provide 20 men, and then in this way you would form a
25 company and so on and so forth.
1 Q. Witness, sir, I would just like to ask you for the transcript to
2 repeat who agreed with whom about this and who was sent. This is not
3 clear from the transcript.
4 A. The agreement was made between the deputy minister at the
5 proposal of the commander of our police brigade for special tasks and
6 Milan Milanovic with Vlastimir Djordjevic, the chief or assistant chief
7 of the MUP of Serbia.
8 Q. You said that a unit was sent from Serbia. Under whose command
9 was this police unit from Serbia that came to the area?
10 A. It was under the command of General Obrad Stevanovic who was in
11 charge of special units within the Serbian MUP, and for a long time --
12 over a long period of time I carried out assignments, including in
13 Kosovo, together with him, and we had a very good relationship. I knew
14 him very well.
15 Q. Mr. Djukic, which department did those policemen who had come
16 from Serbia belong to?
17 A. Well, those police officers were from the public security
18 department. That's a generally known fact.
19 Q. Can you tell us if you know --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
21 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. I regret that all this
22 information that we are having now is also nowhere in the 65 ter summary.
23 I just had to notice that. This is also another entire aspect:
24 Obrad Stevanovic is not mentioned, the witness's involvement in Kosovo is
25 not mentioned, deployment of a group of police officials from Serb is not
1 mentioned. In fact, 1995 is not mentioned.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, in
3 our original 65 ter summary, we do not mention this. However, the
4 summary that we forwarded a day before yesterday it was mentioned, and it
5 arose from the proofing of this witness; Obrad Stevanovic, the year 1995.
6 Kosovo, that's true, was not mentioned, but that's something that the
7 witness said right now answering spontaneously my questions and is
8 probably not relevant to this case in any case, and it relates to the
9 1980s of the previous century.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 1981.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
12 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour, it's true. In the e-mail it says:
13 "The witness will testify in deployment of PJP units from Serbia.
14 In the second part of 1995, PJP units were under the command of
15 Obrad Stevanovic."
16 The detail was not in there but that was the information that we
17 did receive, so the fact that the name "Stevanovic" was not in the
18 65 ter --
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] Ms. Marcus.
20 MS. MARCUS: I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You are now on the list of those who has to slow
22 down on the speed of speech.
23 MS. MARCUS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
24 Yes, so we did receive the name "Stevanovic." We didn't know the
25 details at all, but that was noticed to us in an e-mail.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say there was some notice although at a
2 very late stage. Yes.
3 I keep all your observations in the back of the Chamber's mind,
4 and we'll see what consequences, if any, have to be drawn from them.
5 Mr. Petrovic, you may proceed.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, sir, do you know who financed the sending and stay of
8 these police officers from Serbia in Srem and Baranja in 1995?
9 A. I don't. I had nothing to do with finances within the ministry.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
12 no further questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
14 Mr. Jordash, could you give us an estimate.
15 MR. JORDASH: Up to two hours, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd like to urge the parties that we see that
17 we conclude the testimony of this witness this week.
18 Please proceed.
19 Mr. Djukic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash.
20 Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Let me first ask you about your time as the chief inspector of
1 the police of the RSK beginning in March of 1993.
2 I want to try to understand the structure of the police or the
3 Ministry of Interior of the RSK at that point.
4 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 1D05458.
5 Q. It's a map. And I'm hoping that this helps you to explain a
6 little more about the principle figures and the structure of the MUP at
7 that point.
8 Now, does this map show many of the principal locations where
9 significant structures of the RSK MUP were based in 1993, when you came
10 to take your post?
11 A. Well, you are missing western Dalmatia. You only have up to
12 Vojnic. You're showing the area up to Vojnic. But perhaps can you move
13 the map.
14 Q. You're saying that there were significant locations to the west
15 of Vojnic. Is that -- do I understand you correctly?
16 A. Yes. Well, I will start by what I see here.
17 Let's move on from --
18 Q. But --
19 A. -- the bottom left on the map. Knin, the Ministry of the
20 Interior. And -- that's the headquarters of the service, Korenica;
21 Secretariat of the Interior for Lika, Vojnic; Secretariat of the Interior
22 for Kordun, Glina; Secretariat of the Interior for Banja, Okucani; a
23 small organisational unit of the ministry and the Secretariat of the
24 Interior; Beli Manastir, Secretariat of the Interior and the police
25 station in Darda, Vukovar. A police station in Markusica; a police
1 station in Ilok; a police station in Mirkovci; and a police station in
2 Tovarnik; as well as a police department in Vukovar for public security
3 on the Danube river; Borovo Naselje; an outpost or branch unit of the
4 Ministry of the Interior. And it was my headquarters as well as a team
5 of specialists that were under me.
6 You are not showing --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.
8 MR. JORDASH:
9 Q. What was the name you just mentioned, Mr. Djukic?
10 A. I mentioned Benkovac. Kistanje there was a police station.
11 Perhaps you can find it you on the map here, let me just take a look.
12 Well, it's a small town so it's possible it's not even on the map itself,
13 but you have to find Benkovac. It should be on the map.
14 Q. Okay. Well, we'll find that later. Now we've got it --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It is on the map, just west of Knin. Benkovac. And
16 Kistanje is, as far as I understand, somewhere between Knin and Benkovac.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, you mentioned secretariats.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where did -- what was the significance of the secretariats within
21 the overall structure?
22 A. Secretariats were the basic organisational units of the ministry.
23 The service was centralised along vertical lines, and the secretariats
24 were in charge of the basic work; whereas, the ministry acted as an
25 inspection -- it had an inspecting and co-ordinating role of the
2 Q. Where did you fit into the system? Who was above you, what was
3 the structure above you, and, briefly, what was the structure below?
4 A. Well, my subordinate throughout this time was Mr. Ilija Kojic.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: My superior was
6 Nikola Kojic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it would take a long time for
8 me to mention all the subordinates. There was only --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name of the
11 MR. JORDASH:
12 Q. Who was the subordinate you just mentioned?
13 A. Milan Corak. He was an analyst and he prepared a newspaper,
14 professional newspaper, the 2nd of May 1991.
15 Q. Okay. Let's forget subordinates for now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
17 MS. MARCUS: Yes, can we get clarification of the names that were
18 just mentioned a few lines earlier, earlier on page 23, please.
19 MR. JORDASH: I think we only had one name mentioned, Milan
20 Corak, unless I missed something.
21 MS. MARCUS: There were two different first names.
22 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, what -- I'm not following my learned friend.
23 MS. MARCUS: [Overlapping speakers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see Ilija Kojic and Nikola Kojic on -- but
25 that's a --
1 MS. MARCUS: This -- there were several questions put at page 23,
2 line 2. I'm not sure which one the witness was answering about the
3 superior, the subordinate, et cetera. I think it's -- it's quite
4 unclear, the record.
5 MR. JORDASH: Let me clarify. I think that it's relatively
6 clear, but I can make sure it's absolutely clear.
7 Q. Kojic was your superior. Is that what you just testified to?
8 Ilija Kojic.
9 A. Kojic was the assistant minister and he was appointed to that
10 post by the Government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. In other
11 words, he was an official. I was an operative of the service and the
12 chief inspector not only in this area but for the entire territory of the
13 Republic of Serbian Krajina, and there were a number of inspectors who
14 were my employees but people came and went. It would take too long for
15 me to mention all of their names. For instance, the person who stayed
16 longer was Mile Pavkovic.
17 Q. Okay. Now, what was Kostic to you, Radovan Kostic? Did he have
18 a relation to you?
19 A. Rade Kostic was appointed assistant minister by the Government of
20 the Republic of Serbian Krajina after my time, and Mr. Martic sent a
21 telegram - addressing it to me - asking that I promote this appointment
22 of Kostic's, that we should inform the public on who it was that we were
23 appointing in the service, that we should try and be open and transparent
24 in our work.
25 Q. Was Kojic in real terms your supervisor, or were you left to get
1 on with the job? What was the situation?
2 A. That -- his role was totally clear. Kojic was an official, a
3 public official. He was a representative of the ministry before other
4 competent organs. He would approve all our contacts with the public
5 media. He was in charge of material and logistical security of the
6 service -- or, rather, provisions of the service, and in charge of other
7 duties such as contacts with various assemblies, with the command, and
9 Q. Was his role at that point in time - and I'm talking about
10 March of 1993 and thereabouts - anything to do with being a police
11 officer, commanding police officers on the ground, or much more?
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you finish your question --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you finish your question and then we'll hear from
15 Mr. Petrovic.
16 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
18 MR. JORDASH:
19 Q. [Microphone not activated]... or much more in the role as you've
20 just described which appears to be kind of quasi-political?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before you answer the question, Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the
23 year did not make it into the transcript. My colleague mentioned one
24 year, whereas the witness received another year through interpretation,
25 so I think it would be only fair to clarify it for the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what year you mentioned,
2 Mr. Jordash, and explain that to the witness.
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. We're talking about March of 1993 at the time you began in the
5 RSK as secretary -- or as inspector, I beg your pardon, and I'm asking
6 about Kojic's role.
7 Do you follow what I'm asking you?
8 A. Of course I understand what you're asking. The organigram and
9 the structure of the Ministry of Interior is very well known to me, and
10 as an assistant minister, he had a role - and it is not a dysfunctional
11 role by any means - he was, for all practical purposes, minister. In the
12 absence of Minister Martic, he would be the one who would employ new
13 officials, who would issue disciplinary measures, who would approve
14 leave, and so on. There's a lot of other -- there's a lot of other work
15 that he would be in charge of, such as personnel and finances and so on.
16 He would -- and we reported to him on all our operations and what goals
17 we had reached. Simply put, he was -- he had a political role. He was
18 the politician within the police.
19 Q. Okay. Now, Kostic. Was -- what his actual role at the time
20 you -- go ahead.
21 A. He was also assistant minister.
22 Q. And was his job at that time more in the role as quasi-politician
23 or as a police officer?
24 A. Well, there was nothing quasi in my service, sir. We dealt with
25 serious matters, and Kostic was in charge of the entire territory;
1 whereas, Kojic was only in charge of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and
2 Western Srem.
3 Q. What do you mean Kostic was in charge of the entire territory.
4 Which territory are you including within that?
5 A. The Republic of Serbian Krajina. We've just looked at the map of
6 its territory.
7 Q. What kind of reputation did Kostic have as a police officer?
8 A. Kostic was one of the best commanders, police station commanders.
9 While I was the chief in Croatia, he was based in Darda. Darda was
10 significant. He could have gone up in the service because there was a
11 very prominent hunting ground in that area which was visited by various
12 government officials and -- and even foreign heads of state and
13 government, so it was important to have a person who was aware of
14 protocol who would know how to deal with these matters; otherwise, he
15 would have been appointed to a higher post. But for us it was more
16 important to have a commander of his calibre there than, for instance, in
17 Virovitica where the chief operative had control of the territory of
18 130.000 inhabitants. He went through a lot of training. He went to the
19 higher school of --
20 Q. So you've said two things which I want to ask you about with
21 Kostic. You said on the one hand he was in charge of the entire
22 territory, and other hand he was based in Darda. And you seem to suggest
23 he was the -- a police commander.
24 A. I'm sorry, you misunderstood. I said that Rade Kostic in the
25 one-time Republic of Croatia, before Krajina seceded, he was in that
1 post, and he was a high professional. So there was nothing that would be
2 foreign to him in the public security affairs part of the service.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to -- now we've set out some of the
4 background. I want to ask you to comment, if you can, on a number of
6 MR. JORDASH: Please, could we have on the screen D398, under
7 seal, please.
8 Q. As you'll see, it's a report from the Federal Secretariat of
9 National Defence to the Ministry of Interior, to Jovica Stanisic, and
10 it's a report containing security-related intelligence, dated the 19th of
11 February, 1993.
12 And if we go to the second page, we will see the date that the
13 report appears to have been written, is the 18th of February, 1993.
14 If you just read the report.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies for
17 interrupting. But the first page of this document is not actually the
18 Federal Secretariat of National Defence. If we look at the stamp we will
19 see that it's something totally different. In other words, the
20 translation is not correct. If you look at the original, you will see
21 that it does not say Federal Secretariat of National Defence in the
22 heading. So this may confuse the witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can see that it is from the
24 Republic of Serbian Krajina.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look. What I see in the English at
1 this moment does not correspond with what I see in the B/C/S. Dates are
3 Could we first have the ...
4 Ms. Marcus.
5 MS. MARCUS: When I open this in my e-court system, I see a
6 different B/C/S version which has other stamps on it that are not visible
7 in this B/C/S version.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently the English version of what we are
9 looking at does not correspond with the B/C/S. And now I think it seems
10 to be the same, what we have on our screen now.
11 Yes. Now we have two corresponding pages, although there is
12 a ... I think we could --
13 MR. JORDASH: I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- proceed on this basis. But I'm trying to --
15 MR. JORDASH: I think when we see, Your Honour, the end - and
16 this is something I should have noticed earlier - when we see who it's
17 from, who the author of the document is, we have some idea who is sending
18 the document and --
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I can help.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you can, please do.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you look at the
22 stamp that is in the upper left corner, it reads, from what I can see,
23 the Secretariat of the Internal Affairs, or interior, which was
24 translated as Federal Secretariat of National Defence. As far as I can
25 see, that's the entire problem, mistranslation of that portion.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least we have now on our screens two
2 corresponding pages.
3 Mr. Petrovic draws our attention to a possible mistranslation of
4 the badly legible stamp on the left top corner.
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I do note the time. I wonder if the
6 witness might be given this. I'm going to spend quite some time on this
7 document, if I --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- [Overlapping speakers].
9 MR. JORDASH: As I hope the witness will know something about the
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you then provide him with a hard copy so that he
12 can read it during the break.
13 Mr. Djukic, you have some homework to do.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, that's the 19th of
15 February. But I only arrived there on the 15th of March, so I wouldn't
16 know anything about this document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it in the hands of Mr. Jordash, whether he
18 wants to verify whether the witness has any knowledge of what is in there
19 before he gives you the task of reading the document, but ...
20 Mr. Jordash, if there would be any question in this moment which
21 might help us out for after the break.
22 MR. JORDASH:
23 Q. What I want to ask you about -- what I'm interested in,
24 Mr. Witness, are the relations between characters such as Miroljub
25 Vujovic, Ilija Kojic, Arkan, Mrgud, and a dispute between Vukovar MUP
1 and -- and an Arkan-led administration around Erdut.
2 Are these matters which you might be able to help us with?
3 A. Yes, I could help you with that. Because when it was being
4 discussed that I should go to Vukovar, Minister Martic told me that Arkan
5 had burst onto the premises of the Secretariat of the Internal Affairs,
6 and I don't know what the outcome was, whether there were any casualties,
7 whether there were any dead, any wounded.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, may I take it that you still invite the
9 witness to read this report.
10 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's a three-page report. The real content seems to
12 be on pages 2 and 3. Would you be so kind to read this report. A hard
13 copy will be provided to you during the break.
14 We will resume at a quarter to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, if you're ready to proceed, please do
19 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. You read the document; am I correct? And you need to put the
21 headphones on. It's okay.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Just -- just remain -- if we need assistance, the
23 usher will help us out.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Okay. Are you there and comfortable, Mr. Djukic?
1 JUDGE ORIE: The line of sight is obstructed for good reasons.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
3 MR. JORDASH:
4 Q. Okay. Mr. Djukic, did you read the document, and can I proceed
5 to ask you some questions about it?
6 A. Yes. Please go ahead. I'll welcome them.
7 Q. Let's go to page 2 of the document in English and B/C/S.
8 Now, let's go through the document paragraph by paragraph,
9 because the -- what it purports to describe may be quite significant.
10 "On 16th of February this year, there was an attempt at forcibly
11 removing the leadership of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina,
12 the Vukovar secretariat."
13 Do you know if that's correct?
14 A. I know that it's correct and it's up to the Chamber to decide
15 whether we would need to discuss about these fights and these crimes in
16 the context of crimes of war. And if that is deemed appropriate, I will
17 continue to discuss that and talk about that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's very nice of you to give the authority to the
19 Chamber, whether or not to do this. But if you listen to the questions
20 put to you by Mr. Jordash and answer them, then we'll proceed. And if
21 there's any problem, either the Chamber, or Ms. Marcus, or Mr. Petrovic
22 will intervene.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Is it correct that there was an attempt by - let me say, first of
1 all - Arkan and men around him, to remove the leadership, or part of the
2 leadership, of the RSK MUP?
3 A. Absolutely correct, true.
4 Q. Looking at paragraph 2, a description there of the reserve of
5 force of the RSK Army, headed by Miroljub Vujovic, the secretary of the
6 Secretariat of National Defence of Vukovar, taking over the MUP building.
7 Is that correct? Did that happen?
8 A. Yes, that's what happened. Miroljub Vujovic in the Ministry of
9 Defence for the town of Vukovar and his superior, as assistant minister,
10 is Milan Milanovic. He has been mentioned 100 times already; aka Mrgud.
11 I could continue without giving trouble to you. I could go through the
12 whole thing.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for the questions that Mr. Jordash will put to
15 MR. JORDASH:
16 Q. Do you know if this attempt to remove part of the RSK MUP
17 involved part of the RSK Army in conjunction with men under Arkan?
18 A. We all know that. It states that he took 120 or 150 armed
19 members of the reserve forces of the RSK army from the lines.
20 Q. Mr. Djukic, so you understand what we're doing here, I'm asking
21 you from your personal knowledge whether you can corroborate what's in
22 the document or whether your personal knowledge is different to what's in
23 the document.
24 So -- so when I ask you whether, according to you, from your
25 knowledge, this involved members of the RSK army in conjunction with
1 the -- Arkan, I want you to inform the Court what your knowledge is and
2 whether it's -- corresponds with what's in the document.
3 A. My information fits in completely with that, with the note that I
4 don't know if it was 90 or 120 or 130. In any case, this is something
5 that -- from that -- that turned from a crowd into a mob.
6 Q. And was Arkan in command of this operation?
7 A. No. Arkan joined later. He was in command -- actually,
8 Miroljub Vujovic was in command of the operation, quote/unquote. He is a
9 serious criminal from Ovcara. From the day before -- you can see in the
10 information it says that at the Ilok border crossing, he crashed through
11 the barrier under influence of alcohol, and he did not want to give his
12 ID to the police so that they could conduct an inquiry and prosecute him
13 and have the damages compensated.
14 Q. Vujovic is -- you mentioned Ovcara, he is man who has been
15 convicted of war crimes in relation to Ovcara in the Belgrade War Crimes
16 Court; is that right?
17 A. That is correct. He is one of the most serious -- that is one of
18 the most serious crimes in this war, after Srebrenica.
19 Q. Now, how was it that Vujovic was able to command part of the RSK
20 Army? What was his command authority in relation to them?
21 A. I think that I did answer. Perhaps I wasn't clear. He was the
22 chief of the part of the ministry responsible for the municipality of
23 Vukovar for mobilisation and recruiting tasks, and Milanovic was his
24 superior. And he could have very easily gotten together 100 people. He
25 is a paramilitary member. He is a criminal; sniper, a shooter. And he
1 had his supporters among those who are similar to him, drunks and thugs.
2 He enjoyed their support. I cannot say that he enjoyed their confidence
3 and trust.
4 MR. JORDASH: Can I just have a moment, please.
5 Q. Okay. Let's keep going through the document and some of these
6 issues we can revisit as appropriate.
7 Who do you know were in the -- was in the building when the RSK
8 army, or part of it, surrounded the building?
9 A. There was a smaller number of employees. It was mostly duty work
10 and preparations. Two policemen were in Ilok at the police station on
11 specified tasks. This was Djukic and Grbic.
12 Q. Who was Vujovic aiming for? Who are his targets? Who did he
13 want to remove?
14 A. Well, it's evident, Kojic, Djukic and other functionaries, and he
15 did find adequate substitutions for him, or replacements.
16 Q. We can see there in paragraph 6 of the English --
17 MR. JORDASH: We need to go to page 2, I think, of the B/C/S.
18 Q. Where it says, "After a five-hour discussion..." Do you have
20 A. I know him. Actually, I -- I studied it. I -- I reviewed it,
21 and I noted what I needed.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go through this as the paragraphs appear so we don't
23 get confused.
24 Do you know, looking at the paragraph which begins:
25 "The commander of the Slavonia Corps of the RSK Army was also
1 informed of this incident and stated that he was not aware of the
2 situation and that he did not wish to get involved in its unraveling."
3 Do you know if that's correct?
4 A. Yes, of course, I noted that. Could I have answered that even
5 without you having to ask. The commander, Sladojevic, was --
6 Q. Sorry. I'm going to run out of time. Can you just try to focus
7 your answers and just be as brief as you can.
8 Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.
9 A. Well, how can I be briefer than to say that it was, if he was a
10 proper commander, according to his conscience, he would have had to
11 remove those people from the SUP leadership. They were not fit to be in
12 the SUP leadership.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that wasn't the question.
14 The question whether you -- it was whether you can confirm what
15 is written in this paragraph. First: Commander of the Slavonia Corps.
16 Was he informed about this incident, yes or no?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did confirm that. And I
18 noted --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So the answer is yes.
20 Now, did he state that he was not aware of the situation, as far
21 as you know?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then third, did he state that he did not wish
24 to get involved in the unraveling of that situation?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That answers the question.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
3 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
4 Q. Do you know why he made that decision; why he didn't intervene or
5 have the army intervene to help protect the assistant minister of the
6 interior, Ilija Kojic?
7 A. I know that very well. Said Miroljub would slap colonels. If
8 you need an interpretation, it's a -- striking somebody with your palm on
9 their cheek.
10 Q. Thank you for that explanation. Let me try to shortcut this.
11 It's plain, then, from this and the events that you described that
12 Ilija Kojic had no command authority over the RSK Army at this point in
13 time; am I correct?
14 A. Yes. Not at that time. Actually, never.
15 Q. Never. Thank you. It's also plain that he no command authority
16 over - am I correct? - the Secretariat of National Defence, which was a
17 body that Vujovic was the secretary of; correct?
18 A. Vujovic, Miroljub.
19 Q. Kojic had no command authority over the Secretariat of National
20 Defence, of which Vujovic was the secretary; correct?
21 A. Well, how could I have the authority when, in all European
22 states, the ministries are separate? The ministry of -- for police
23 and --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No. What happens in other states is not the
1 Mr. Jordash asked you if it is correct that Kojic had no command
2 authority over the Secretariat of National Defence; is that correct or
3 not? The Secretariat of National Defence of which Vujovic was the
4 secretary; is that accurate?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. All I said was
6 that these were two independent sectors, and I just wanted to explain,
7 actually, how it is in theory.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If Mr. Jordash is interested to see whether
9 this is in line with a theory, he will ask you. He only asked you
10 whether what he said was accurate, yes or no. And the simple answer then
11 is yes, it is accurate.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Do you know what the authority was, or what the job description
15 was, of the Secretariat of National Defence at that time? What did it
17 A. Set in the constitution of Republika Srpska and the Law on
18 National Defence, I said he -- these were tasks of recruitment and
19 mobilisation, records, sending conscripts to serve their term of duty,
20 maintaining records, establishing the deployment, setting the staging
21 areas, and so on and so forth.
22 Q. And these issues were all in relation to combat operations; is
23 that right? Military operations.
24 A. Yes, of course.
25 Q. Kojic's authority was limited to issues relating to police work,
1 crime, and prevention work; am I correct?
2 A. Public security tasks, which is a broader term than police work.
3 I don't need to go into that because I'm being asked to be brief and
4 rationalise the time.
5 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you to look at the paragraph which begins:
6 "Around 1500 hours, a meeting started in the secretariat building ..."
7 MR. JORDASH: Could we go to the second page of the B/C/S,
8 please, or the next page.
9 Q. "Around 1500 hours, a meeting started in the secretariat
10 building, on which occasion the present senior MUP staff were
11 informed ... they are being dismissed because of, as alleged, obstructing
12 work and avoiding co-operation with the Secretariat of National Defence."
13 Is that correct, from your own knowledge?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What work was being obstructed according to the Secretariat of
16 National Defence, or those who represented that body, in that meeting?
17 A. The powers were simply not clear, and if there was a conflict of
18 powers, it could not have been resolved at the same level. But the
19 government would need to be informed about it.
20 Q. Sorry, I think we're misunderstanding each other.
21 I'm asking you what work was being obstructed according to the
22 representatives of the Secretariat of National Defence.
23 A. None, by the regulations. If somebody made up some on their own,
24 that was a different issue.
25 Q. Okay. Let me try this differently.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you emphasised in one of your previous
2 questions the personal knowledge of the witness. Could we just
3 establish --
4 You were not present at that point in time in the -- in the MUP
5 building, were you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I read the report, and I know
7 the final outcome.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So when we talk about your personal knowledge, it is
9 based on the report and what you learned about the outcome?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. What was the main complaint of the Secretariat of National
13 Defence? What did they put forward as the reason they wanted to remove
14 Kojic? Whether that reason is correct or not, what was the reason they
15 put forward at the time?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Was it plain, though, to you, when you arrived in the region and
18 began your tasks, that the real reason that Vujovic - accompanied later
19 on by Arkan - had sought to remove Ilija Kojic was because Kojic was
20 trying to prevent their criminal activity?
21 A. It's possible. After I came, incidents like that didn't happen
23 Q. Let's read on in the document, see if can you assist.
24 Do you know if Arkan, as this paragraph suggests, along with
25 Mrgud, came to the meeting afterwards, or during the meeting, and
1 supported the demands for Kojic and others to be removed from their
3 A. I know, yes. Also, that he was the one who initiated or actually
4 agreed before arrival that it should be done that way. He's considered
5 to be the most responsible.
6 Q. What was Arkan's relationship to the Secretariat of National
7 Defence at that time?
8 A. None. He was with Milan Milanovic, Mrgud, and Milanovic was the
9 first step in the order, and then it was him protecting his protege.
10 Q. With Mrgud being Arkan's protege, or vice versa?
11 A. Well, they helped each other out. It was mutual.
12 Q. They were friends, Mrgud and Arkan, and supported each other in
13 their professional activities; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And let's read on in the document. The next paragraph begins:
16 "After a five-hour discussion at which, according to our
17 information, the accused party was not given an opportunity to present
18 its facts and arguments, the conclusion was brought that an RSK
19 government session should be convened within three days at which a
20 decision would be taken on the dismissal of the present and the
21 appointment of new senior staff of the Vukovar Secretariat."
22 Do you know if that's correct?
23 A. I don't know that there was any government session in Knin to
24 discuss this. I just know that Bogicevic, who was the vice-president of
25 the government, attended the meeting.
1 Q. Reading on:
2 "In the demand that was put forward, it was requested to replace
3 Ilija Kojic, assistant minister of the RSK MUP, the entire leadership of
4 the Vukovar Secretariat, two operatives in charge of vehicle theft, and
5 the desk officer for vehicle registration."
6 Do you know if this is correct?
7 A. It is correct. And I know the reason, too.
8 Q. Please explain.
9 A. Two operatives, one of them being Mandic and the other one being
10 Novo, they seized vehicles that had been stolen, large-scale. And of
11 course Iso, who was the desk officer for registration of these vehicles,
12 was an obstacle because he would not register vehicles that did not have
13 appropriate paperwork with them. In other words, there should be a sales
14 document, there should be a technical service or technical inspection
15 document, and so on. Registration paper, et cetera.
16 Q. Thank you. Let's read on.
17 "It was envisaged that Kojic be replaced by
18 Ljubomir Milojevic ..."
19 Do you know if that's correct?
20 A. I do. And I know Milivojevic. He was the head of section in
21 Osijek before the war broke out.
22 Q. Do you know why it was proposed that he should replace Kojic.
23 Why was it that Arkan and Mrgud wanted that man instead of Kojic?
24 A. Well, because he and Radulovic, Predrag Radulovic, spent a lot of
25 with them. They spent a lot of time together. You can find information
1 about Predrag Radulovic. There is a report.
2 Q. Thank you. Let's read on:
3 "The DB head, Slobodan Ivkovic, who was accused for allegedly
4 co-operating with the RDB of the MUP of ... Serbia was to be replaced by
5 Predrag Radulovic ..."
6 Do you know whether Arkan, Mrgud, Vujovic, accused - or at least
7 thought - that Ivkovic was, at the time, co-operating with the DB of
9 A. Ivkovic was trained for state security work, whereas Radulovic
10 was not. For a while, when each village had a sheriff of their own, he
11 was the secretary of the SUP and minister for Baranja alone. There
12 existed a minister for Baranja alone.
13 Q. And did Arkan want to replace Ivkovic, as far as you're aware,
14 because he thought Ivkovic was working -- was -- was working for the
15 Serbian DB?
16 A. Well, I don't see anything bad in services exchanging
17 information, nor is Arkan the person who should -- who is actually in a
18 position to assess a thing like that.
19 Q. Mr. Djukic, we are in complete agreement, but I'm trying to find
20 out some information because I want to know what you know so you can
21 assist the Court. So we agree on that.
22 But what I want to know is: Do you have any information that
23 corroborates what this document says, which is that Arkan wanted -- or
24 those around Arkan at this time wanted to replace Ivkovic because they
25 thought he was working in some way with the Serbian DB?
1 A. I don't have any information to that effect. If he did
2 co-operate with them, how I would know?
3 Q. I'm not asking you whether he did work for the DB --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please carefully listen to the question.
5 The question is not whether he co-operated but the question is
6 whether, from Arkan's position, they wanted Ivkovic to be replaced
7 because they suspected that he was co-operating with the Serbian DB.
8 Do you know whether this was what moved them; or do you not know?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know. That was the -- the thing
10 that motivated them.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
13 Q. Now, there's no suggestion here that -- they thought that Kojic
14 worked for the Serbian DB.
15 Do you know if they suspected him at the time? Was that also a
16 motivation or not?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. When you came into the region, did you have any idea that Kojic
19 had any relationship with the Serbian DB? Were you told that? Or did he
20 tell you that?
21 A. I don't, nor was I told, nor do you ask such things of your
23 Q. Thank you. And if we go to page 3 of the document and we stick
24 with this paragraph; page 4 of the B/C/S. The writer of the report
1 "It is indicative" --
2 And I'm reading from halfway down the first page in that English:
3 "It is indicative that they are asking for the dismissal of
4 persons working on vehicle theft or registration duties, especially since
5 a person who has prior convictions for committed crimes and has served
6 terms of imprisonment for the duration of nine years was foreseen for the
7 position of desk officer for vehicle registration."
8 A. I think I've already said what the reason was and why those
9 operatives who were in charge of vehicle thefts should be removed from
10 the secretariat, and why the desk officer - who refused to register
11 stolen vehicles - should be removed and bring in their place a criminal
12 who would be in charge of that.
13 Q. Thank you. Thank you. What did Martic do about this? What did
14 he do, if anything, to protect Kojic and his colleagues from Arkan?
15 A. Well, it's a fact that he protected him because everyone remained
16 in their posts. And a mere month and a half later, there was a
17 high-level meeting which he convened, where it was concluded that Arkan
18 should be banned from entering the region. And I've already testified to
20 Q. Let me ask you about the relationship between Martic and Kojic
21 and Kostic later on in 1994.
22 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, P987.
23 Q. Let me try to shortcut things.
24 First of all, am I correct that there came a time when Kojic and
25 Martic fell out?
1 A. I don't know what the reason was for that. They were officials,
2 and it was not my place to inquire into what their relationship was,
3 unless I was asked to provide my professional opinion.
4 As I've already said, there was a difference in the way they
6 Q. Actually, let's go back to the document we looked at again. I
7 want to ask you about a paragraph which might help to you recall certain
9 Whilst that's coming up - that's D398 again - the report that is
10 coming back on the screen that we've been talking about was written by a
11 man called Milenko -- perhaps -- yes, it's fine. Written by a man called
12 Milenko Lemic. Did you know that man? Or at least co-authored by Lemic.
13 Did you know him?
14 A. Yes, I knew him. And I know him now. He is a retired member of
15 the State Security Service, the service for Vojvodina, which was in
16 Novi Sad.
17 Q. And did you know him at the time; and, if you did know him at the
18 time, what was he doing in the region? Do you know? At the time of this
20 A. I didn't see him in the region myself. And as for reports, he
21 could have obtained them in Backa Palanka or at any other place. So you
22 wouldn't have to actually go to a flash-point area in order to obtain
23 some information about it.
24 Q. Okay. Let me try to be more specific. Do you agree with me that
25 he was a solid professional, who, as far as you could see, was engaged in
1 nothing other than collecting intelligence to put into reports, such as
2 the one we've been looking at?
3 A. I fully agree. Operatives have to write many reports, and it is
4 up to their bosses to assess which information has operative value.
5 Q. You didn't observe him having any decision-making authority
6 within the RSK; am I correct?
7 A. Yes, you're correct. I know that he had no decision-making
8 authority because there was a State Security Service of the Republic of
9 Serbian Krajina.
10 Q. Let's return to this document, page 3 of the English and page 4
11 of the B/C/S. And there is reference three paragraphs down in English
13 "The cause for dismissing the mentioned MUP members is reportedly
14 an incident that has taken place the day before at the border crossing
15 near Tovarnik."
16 Did you know about that border crossing?
17 A. I read about it in a report, and it was also visible. When I
18 arrived there, the ramp there was broken. That was something that was
19 kept across the road, and then it would be lifted when somebody needed to
20 pass through. So that was broken.
21 Q. Was Kojic engaged in crime prevention activities that border
23 A. Well, no. There is no mention of Kojic here.
24 Q. I know there is not a mention here. I'm asking you if you know
25 whether Kojic was engaged in crime prevention activities at Tovarnik
1 either then or later?
2 A. Well, why would an assistant minister take part in border
3 crossing controls? That's something that the unit, the crew, should do.
4 Q. Which unit, which crew?
5 A. The border crossing unit which checks all border crossings and
6 which secures -- which is in charge of securing the border area.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. JORDASH: Can we have on the screen now P987.
9 Q. This, you will see, is a letter by -- or from Martic dated 7th of
10 October, 1994, directly to Milosevic; to the prime minister of Serbia,
11 Milanovic; to the minister of the interior, Zoran Sokolovic; and to the
12 chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, General Perisic.
13 And it's entitled: "Subject: Another Incident at the Tovarnik Crossing."
14 And if you just have a look quickly at the first page.
15 MR. JORDASH: If we go to the second page of the English, please.
16 Q. And this letter, as you'll see, is a complaint by Martic, and he
17 is essentially complaining about Kojic and his men and Kostic and his
18 men. Do you see the paragraph which begins: "At the crossing, I was met
19 by Colonel Stojan Spanovic, Corps Chief of Staff ..."?
20 A. Yes, I see it that. And I know Stojan.
21 Q. Do you know anything about Martic's complaint at this time,
22 complaining that Kojic and Kostic were effectively acting against his
23 interests, including having their men stop him at the Tovarnik crossing?
24 A. These weren't Kojic's or Kostic's men. This was the check-point
25 unit, and there was an oversight on their part. They did not recognise
1 the minister right away. And when -- for instance, when they would stop
2 me, I would behave like any other participant in traffic. Now, he felt
3 offended that he hadn't been recognised by them.
4 Q. But how do you know about this incident; and how do you know that
5 they were not Kojic's or Kostic's men?
6 A. Well, the border crossing is run by the police station in the
7 border area.
8 Now, if Kojic and Kostic were to have their own men at each one
9 of the border crossings, and there were 13 of them, do you know what
10 large number of men they would have to have? And that in three shifts on
12 Q. So you went through that border crossing in October or
13 thereabouts of 1994, and you saw that these men were not Kojic's or
14 Kostic's men; am I correct?
15 A. Well, they were police members in charge of that work.
16 Q. Right. Okay. So we're clear about one thing: that they're
17 regular police members. Nothing to do with a paramilitary force. You
18 agree with that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know why it was that Martic was writing to Milosevic
21 accusing Kojic and Kostic of things that they hadn't done?
22 A. I don't. As for this, I know that he was very offended. But I
23 could also give you an opposite example. However, the Trial Chamber
24 wants me to be to the point and succinct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, in your last question, you asked for a
1 reason for accusing someone of which he hadn't done. Now, that's a
2 rather composite question, isn't it. If you say, "I do not," that may be
3 understood as an implicit affirmation of that he hadn't done any of the
4 thing. It could also be limited to not knowing the reasons.
5 So this type of questions and the answer you can expect is at a
6 risk to create confusion rather than to --
7 MR. JORDASH: Yes. Your Honour, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And could you please avoid that type of confusing
10 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
11 Q. Let me ask you -- let me try to deal with it in a different way.
12 Page 4 of the English, please, and I hope it's going to be 4 of
13 the B/C/S. And the paragraph I'm interested in:
14 "Mr. President of the Republic, Mr. Prime Minister, Minister of
15 the Interior, Chief of Staff ..."
16 MR. JORDASH: Page 2 of the B/C/S, please.
17 Q. And the paragraph notes:
18 "Mr. President of the Republic, Mr. Prime Minister, Minister of
19 the Interior, Chief of Staff, my decision at present is not to go public
20 with everything that happens to me in the state of which I am the
21 president. There is overwhelming evidence that the state security of the
22 MUP of Serbia is behind these paramilitary and parapolice forces."
23 Do you have that?
24 A. Yes, I do. And I know of this incident. I know of it, but I
25 don't know the details.
1 Q. Okay. Now, what I'm interested in is whether you know, or knew
2 at the time, that Martic - like Arkan before - was suspicious, paranoid
3 about the DB, the Serbian DB and its influence within the RSK?
4 Do you know that?
5 A. I really don't know whether he was paranoid. All I know is that
6 in higher education, at the college that he attended, his average grade
7 was 1.9 in Zagreb. And you earn that kind of grade when you actually
8 have to retake an exam a couple of times.
9 Q. Let me just simplify it.
10 Do you know anything about Martic's view towards the Serbian DB
11 in -- and particularly Jovica Stanisic, in 1994, going into 1995?
12 A. I know that Martic thought that he was above everyone else in
13 Serbian lands.
14 Q. So you know nothing specific about the DB? Yes or no,
15 Mr. Witness.
16 A. No. No.
17 Q. Let's move on then.
18 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 65 ter
19 1D02572, under seal.
20 Q. I want to move onto 1995 and issues surrounding the 11th Corps.
21 This is a document written by an operative. It's a report by an
22 operative of the RDB Novi Sad. And I just want to ask you if can you
23 confirm some of the details in it.
24 First of all, the first paragraph notes that the corps, the
25 11th Corps, had about 21.000 men. Do you know if that's correct,
2 A. One thousand more.
3 Q. 22.000, you think?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, moving through the document, trying to save some time, if we
6 can go to page 3 of the English and 2 of the B/C/S. And it says there
7 halfway down the page in the English:
8 "Until recently, a battalion of special forces operated
9 independently in providing security at the oil wells in Dzeletovci, the
10 so-called Boca's Battalion. However, according to the latest
11 information, this battalion has placed itself fully under the corps'
13 Do you know if that was -- is correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, that means that the witness has
16 considered every part of what is written here, where he says it's
18 MR. JORDASH: Let me break it down, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Such as that, until recently, special forces
20 operated independently. I mean, it's a lot of information --
21 MR. JORDASH: Yes. I accept that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- and I'd like to be sure that I understand the
23 answer in full.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. Let me break that down, Mr. Witness. If you can try to limit
1 your answers and, if possible, answer yes or no and give an explanation
2 only when strictly necessary, because my time is running quickly.
3 In June of 1995, when this document was written, were you aware
4 that Boca's Battalion had placed itself fully under the 11th Corps
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know whether, from that point onwards, Boca's Battalion
8 received its supplies from the 11th Corps Command?
9 A. Yes. But still a part of the oil industry, which in 1995 was
10 still using the raw crude oil.
11 Q. Thank you. Let's go to page 5 of the English and 4 of the B/C/S.
12 And we have there a paragraph which says:
13 "Apart from the army, in the event of Croatia's aggression, the
14 detachment of the PJM of the SUP of Beli Manastir would also be included
15 in the defence and would be attached to the 60th Brigade for anti-landing
16 and anti-sabotage activities. According to establishment, the detachment
17 is part of the brigade and is based in Erdut. It is made up of
18 active-duty and reserve police officers out.
19 Were you aware, Mr. Djukic, of a detachment of police officers,
20 PJM, based in Erdut in June of 1995?
21 A. I knew that. This was still the unit in Erdut, but because of
22 the incursion of the Ustashas to Kopacki Rit we dislocated or removed 60
23 people into a separate unit. I even have a photograph showing their
24 success in liquidating the terrorists.
25 Q. And at the same time as this detachment of PJM was based in
1 Erdut, the Ministry of Defence was also based in Erdut; correct?
2 A. Yes. It's a small distance away. It's a castle. And this was
3 actually the centre of pre-military training in -- just in front of
5 Q. Were the Ministry of Defence in Erdut responsible, in part, for
6 sending units of the 11th Corps on operations within the RSK? Men were
7 sent from Erdut; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. I would kindly ask you to repeat your question. I don't
9 know how they would be going from the RSK to the Republic of the Serbian
10 Krajina. We have to talk about military terminology a little bit and get
11 into that if we're going to talk about the army.
12 Q. Well, let me try to break it down.
13 The Ministry of Defence in Erdut, do you know what its
14 responsibilities were, in brief?
15 A. In 1995, it was exclusively equipping the units, providing food,
16 weapons, and other materiel and logistical support issues.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. JORDASH: May I tender this as an exhibit, please,
19 Your Honour.
20 MS. MARCUS: Could I please have information about provenance.
21 MR. JORDASH: We'll send that, Your Honour, right away.
22 MS. MARCUS: So maybe it could be MFI'd, Your Honour, until we
23 receive that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar the number to be assigned to the
25 document would be?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D764, under seal. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D764 is marked for identification, under seal.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Let's go to some further documents.
6 MR. JORDASH: Could I have on the screen, please, 1D05455 and ERN
7 number 0415 --
8 MS. MARCUS: Can you repeat the number, please?
9 MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
11 MR. JORDASH: I beg your pardon. 1D05455, ERN 04150670.
12 Q. The subject I want to the ask you about is your knowledge of
13 troop -- troops being sent from the 11th Corps in 1994 and 1995 to the
14 Republika Srpska, whether you have knowledge of some of these issues.
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Well, let me see if you do.
17 This is an intercept of a conversation. Have a look at it and
18 see if can you assist with any issue. Or let me ask you a question once
19 you've read it.
20 A. Please. Come on.
21 Q. This, it suggests, that Loncar had direct command in November of
22 1994 of the -- of Boca.
23 Would you agree with that, that he did?
24 A. To a degree. Because already it arises from previous documents,
25 and we've already talked about it - and from statements by Mrgud
1 himself - that both of them had authority over that unit.
2 Q. Thank you for the answer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
4 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Yes. This -- the document I think is more accurately described
6 as a summary of an intercept rather than an intercept.
7 MR. JORDASH: Fair enough.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was about to make a similar observation.
9 MR. JORDASH:
10 Q. Let's go to the next document that I'm interested in you looking
11 at, Mr. Djukic.
12 MR. JORDASH: 1D05293. ERN -- sorry, 1D05293. Fortunately, I
13 can see the frustrated stenographer. ERN 04150678. And it's B/C/S page
14 5, English page 5.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the previous document, the draft
16 translation gives a date, whereas the original bears no date. May I take
17 it that it's taken from the context of a series of summaries or?
18 MR. JORDASH: I'll have to check that. I'm not altogether sure.
19 We hadn't spotted that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's pretty obvious. And, as a matter of fact,
21 for the present document, we have the same problem. It gives a time, it
22 gives a number, but, apparently, there's no date in the original.
23 MR. JORDASH: Could I check this while we're --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
25 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
1 Q. You see there, summary of an intercept in front of you on the
3 "General Dusan Loncar, commander of the 11th Corps, who is on the
4 battle-field in western Bosnia, will return to Vukovar on the 20th of
5 November, 1994, along with the military that is currently on the
6 battle-field there."
7 A. Yes. That does correspond to the time, judging by what I know
8 that my police members were killed on the 10th and the 11th. That would
9 indicate that Loncar returned around the 11th. But I did not actually
10 have any oversight as to where he was going.
11 Q. Your police members were killed on the 10th and the 11th. But
12 where were they killed, and what were they doing when they were killed?
13 A. In Kordun, defending the 5th Corps. Dudakovic was in jeopardy by
14 the attempt of independence of western Bosnia, under the leadership of
15 Fikret Abdic and his newly formed forces. And it suited us more to keep
16 Fikret where he was, because he was open for co-operation.
17 Q. So why -- why was it that police officers -- no, let me start
18 that again.
19 Were units of police officers, then, being sent to assist
20 Fikret Abdic in 1994 alongside members of the 11th Corps?
21 A. Yes. It's just that I don't know what zone they were active in.
22 They were led by General Mile Novakovic. I was not involved in that
23 military operation. The late Kostic was in charge, and he did not come
25 Q. So would you agree with this - and we'll look at some more
1 intercepts - but throughout -- from the end -- throughout 1994 and into
2 1995, units of the 11th Corps were being sent to assist Fikret Abdic, as
3 were a number of police units being sent from the RSK to assist
4 Fikret Abdic?
5 A. As for the Slavonia and Baranja area, I know of this case that
6 you talked about, about the return of Loncar on the 20th of November.
7 Perhaps from other regions, Lika, Knin, and so on.
8 Q. Do you know if men were being sent on a regular basis from Erdut
9 to assist Fikret Abdic in 1994 and 1995?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No, you don't know; or yes, you do know?
12 A. They were not sent on a regular basis. I said that. What does
13 regular mean? It would mean on the basis of shifts. Then you would have
14 one company go from the 1st to the 15th, and then another from the 15th
15 until the 30th.
16 Q. Is that what happened? They went on the basis of shifts?
17 A. Clearly. Not on a continual basis for our units always to have
18 been there, to have had a presence there.
19 Q. And they were being organised in Erdut; is that right? Was it --
20 the Ministry of Defence organising them in Erdut?
21 A. No. The unit was based in Erdut all the time. If you're
22 thinking about the special police unit.
23 Q. How big was the special police unit?
24 A. Well, you cannot say that. I said that when I was answering
25 about the arrival of the police from Serbia. The unit had 100 to 1.000
1 people. The needed number was taken from the regular forces. For
2 example, the Tovarnik police station, 90 people; 40 would go for an
3 assignment and the remaining 50 would have to increase their number of
4 work hours in order to be able to make up this final number.
5 Q. So what you're saying is that, for example, if 80 men from the
6 special police unit were sent from Erdut to assist Fikret Abdic, then
7 you, as police officer, might need further reinforcements while those 80
8 men were in the operations assisting Fikret Abdic; is that right?
9 A. No. We wouldn't need reinforcements for that number outside of
10 our area. We never asked for reinforcements from Serbia. Our units did
11 not only go to Kordun. They also went to Okucani in batches of 150 men
12 until Okucani fell on the 2nd of May, 1995. Also Knin, Benkovac, where
13 there were much -- many fewer people in relation to the actual space.
14 The density of our population was the highest in our area.
15 Q. Let me ask you to look at 1D05293.
16 MR. JORDASH: It's 1D05293. Oh, it's already on. And it's
17 English page 14 and B/C/S page 14.
18 And Your Honour, before this moves on, if one takes -- moves the
19 B/C/S to the left of the document on the screen, you can see the date. I
20 think that's -- yep, there it is. And the ERN number we want now is 0415
21 to 0734.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it, yes.
23 MR. JORDASH:
24 Q. Dated the 18th of December, 1994. And it notes:
25 "From the interview of General Loncar, with some Mica from
1 General Staff of SVK, we learn: In the last tour, 460 soldiers from the
2 11th Corps went to Bihac battle-field. Next change, shift of about 400
3 soldiers' strength should enter the Bihac battle-field on the 21st of
5 Is that description consistent with your understanding of what
6 was happening within the 11th Corps in December of 1994?
7 A. Yes. But not the number.
8 Q. What's wrong with the number?
9 A. I don't know the number, and I will tell you the reason.
10 The number of people could have come from the 21st Corps that was
11 covering Kordun with Loncar just being in charge, because it doesn't say
12 here which corps was giving how many people.
13 Q. Thank you. Let's --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have a date, a translation of the time, which
17 seems to be not corresponding to the original.
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes. It looks as though the --
19 JUDGE ORIE: It looks as if it is 15:04:00, whereas in the
20 English it looks as if it is 14:04:00. Or are my eyes getting worse.
21 MR. JORDASH: No, I think your eyes -- yeah. Your eyes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, may -- that one hour of difference
23 may not make a great difference, but I'm always concerned about the
24 accuracy of these type of translations. If such simple mistakes are
25 already there.
1 MR. JORDASH: Apologies. We'll rectify that.
2 Q. Let's move onto some more intercepts and see if you can assist.
3 MR. JORDASH: 1D05293. English, page 10; B/C/S, page 10.
4 ERN 04150725. 11th December, 1994. 19:22:00.
5 Let's just have a look at this:
6 "NS of the 11th Corps Colonel Spanovic, informs General Loncar
7 that they have failed to persuade members of the Battalion of 45th
8 Brigade from Bijelo Brdo to go to Bihac battle-field so the personnel
9 from the battalion of 45th Brigade from Mirkovci will go in this tour."
10 Do you know anything about men, these men or any other military
11 men going from Mirkovci to the Bihac battle-field in December of 1994?
12 A. No, I'm sorry. Nobody told me that I would be testifying about
13 this topic. I don't have General Loncar's war diary.
14 Q. Mr. Djukic, no one is going to blame you if you can't answer and
15 you don't know. No witness knows everything. If you can, please assist,
16 and if you can't, no problem.
17 Do you know anything about the 45th Brigade being located in
19 A. I know that, yes.
20 Q. Do you know anything about them being sent at any time to the
21 Bihac battle-field, whether in 1994 or 1995?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
24 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, may we take a break, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break.
1 Could you tell us how much time you would need after the break,
2 because you used until -- you said up to two hours you would need. You
3 are coming close to two hours.
4 MR. JORDASH: Ideally, I would like 30 minutes because I still
5 have some intercepts to go through, but if I could ask for 20 that would
6 be really useful.
7 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes are granted after the break.
8 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please verify that the language of what
10 you call intercepts, or summary of intercepts, even suggests such, we
11 learned that, that is not the usual language you would find even in a
12 summary of an intercept. Could you please verify it carefully where it
13 stems from and -- because it's -- I'm a bit puzzled by the language used
14 here and there.
15 We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 1.00. And then
16 you have until 1.00, Mr. Jordash.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you have until five minutes past 1.00.
20 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Okay. Mr. Djukic, if you can try to keep your answers as short
22 as possible, and I'll try to make my questions as specific as possible so
23 we can get through a few more intercepts.
24 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, on the screen 1D05293 B/C/S
25 page 16; English, page 17. ERN 04150736.
1 And it's a summary of an intercept, 19th of December, 1994 from
2 the conversation between General Loncar and an unidentified other
3 participant in the General Staff of the VSK. I highlight the following:
4 "Loncar has recently sent a request to General Staff SVK asking
5 for the delivery of some fuel that he needs. However, it was not
6 delivered because there no fuel, not even there. The shortage of fuel
7 jeopardizes the sending of a shift to the Bihac front. Loncar states
8 that for the shift accomplishment he uses 15 buses and pays for 8 t of
9 fuel. Namely, he can engage five buses while the rest he gets from
10 Auto-trans from Sid and from Backa Palanka, and he pays with 21 of D2 for
11 1 kilometre."
12 Simple question, Mr. Djukic. Were you aware that Loncar arranged
13 for the fuel to transport members of the 11th Corps to the Bihac region
14 in December of 1994 and into 1995?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Were you aware that the RSK had agreement with the
17 Republika Srpska in relation to supplying operations assisting
18 Fikret Abdic?
19 A. I was.
20 Q. And that agreement involved the RSK providing those assisting
21 Fikret Abdic with fuel, logistics, and ammunition, through 1994 and into
23 A. I don't know what their logistics arrangements were.
24 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
25 Let's go to another intercept. 1D05293, please. B/C/S, page 18;
1 English, page 19. ERN 04150743. Date 24th of December 1994.
2 "General Loncar asked from the General Staff of the SVK, even
3 from the president of so-called RSK Milan Martic to intervene by the
4 authorities in so-called FRY to enable the shift of men from the 11th
5 Corps consisting of six full and eight empty buses and to unknown number
6 of trucks and terrain vehicles to cross the territory of so-called FRY to
7 the territory of B and H in the direction of Bihac front."
8 And then further down the page to the second paragraph and the
9 last line:
10 "At 1655, an unknown voice from General Staff SVK was reported to
11 General Loncar that the president had arranged everything, that he could
13 Were you privy to any information which confirmed that Martic
14 approved and supported the sending police and military units to assist in
15 the Republika Srpska in late 1994, into 1995?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Are you able to confirm that Martic was kept up to date and fully
18 informed of those transfers of men to the Republika Srpska?
19 A. It is quite certain that Loncar never bypassed him.
20 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 1D05293.
21 B/C/S -- that's 1D05293, B/C/S page 34; English, page 35. ERN 04150801.
22 Q. 18th of February, 1995. "From the interview of
23 Colonel Grozdanic, assistant commander for logistics of the 11th Corps,
24 with Milan Milovanovic, Mrgud, former assistant minister of defence. We
25 learn that during the night of the 18th and 19th February, the buses with
1 the soldiers from Baranja Division returning from west Bosnian
2 battlefield should arrive in the zone of the responsibility of the corps.
3 The permission to go through the territory of so-called FRY should obtain
4 Milan Martic, the president of so-called RSK, at the president of Serbia,
5 Slobodan Milosevic."
6 Now you've -- you earlier said, Mr. Djukic, that you didn't know
7 anything about Martic's fallout and dislike of Stanisic in late 1994. Do
8 you know anything about Martic's direct line to Slobodan Milosevic, in
9 relation to operations in the Bihac region in late 1994/early 1995.
10 A. Yes. I knew that Martic went occasionally for a consultation
11 with the late Milosevic and that he always sought his opinion and
13 Q. And do you -- are you able to confirm that that was not a
14 relationship which relied upon indirect channels of communication. They
15 had a direct line to each other. Martic could call up Milosevic in
16 relation to these operations in the Bihac region?
17 A. Yes. Fikret would first get in touch with President Milosevic,
18 and then the others would. That was for the original or initial
20 Q. And as an ongoing operation, are you able to say -- do you have
21 direct or indirect knowledge of Martic contacting Milosevic directly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where is that knowledge from, please?
24 A. Well, I know from my conversation with Martic. He would say, I
25 called Sloba, I told Sloba, or Sloba told me. He didn't lie to me. At
1 least not to me.
2 Q. Did he continue, Martic, to -- sorry if I've asked this before,
3 but it's important. But in late 1994 and early 1995 when these
4 operations were ongoing, did Martic ever change his view about the
5 Serbian DB? Did he suddenly start to express trust in them, or was he
6 always someone who regarded the likes of Kojic and Kostic as a problem?
7 A. I really cannot understand that. They were close friends. They
8 spoke on a number of occasions. For instance, when I went to Ilok,
9 sometimes I would even sit at a different table and they would sit at
10 another table, which I didn't mind at all. From what I could observe
11 myself, they had a very good relationship mutually, and he even continued
12 this relation with Kojic when Dalmacija fell. Kojic offered all kinds of
13 assistance to him.
14 Q. To who, sorry?
15 A. To Martic. He even assisted him in Serbia. He attended his
16 daughter's wedding, and I think that to this day he still occasionally
17 visits his family in Serbia.
18 Q. Okay. And Kostic. How did Kostic die; do you know?
19 A. I never learnt. His daughters -- his little daughters asked me,
20 they implored me because he didn't have a son. They had some ideas about
21 how that happened, but these are versions that I wouldn't want to bring
22 out here. But I -- to me, it's a mystery how he died.
23 Q. Was there a rumour that Arkan had had something to do with that?
24 A. No. There were rumours that Legija had killed him. But these
25 were just rumours.
1 MR. JORDASH: Let's go to 1D05293, please. B/C/S page 38;
2 English page 39. ERN 04150859.
3 Q. Date, 29th of March, 1995.
4 "A Colonel Milan (from FRY Belgrade) said that while talking to
5 the General Mladic that he found larger quantities of ammunition cal
6 7.62-millimetre; namely, 6 million bullets for 2 million deutschemarks.
7 Milan who worked together with the General Bajic says that the staff for
8 the defence of Krajina is formed, so they intend to enlarge it with
9 representatives of RS and they could later form the staff for the defence
10 of RS. The aim of the establishment of these staffs is to gather
11 volunteers and clothes and other MTS for the needs of VRS and SVK."
12 A. That's deceit. Martic said that Karadzic would cut deals, that
13 would be the expense of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and this became
14 evident when Western Slavonia was occupied. And I would really
15 appreciate it if you asked me about how that happened. Please ask me how
16 Western Slavonia fell. And if you don't have -- if you -- unless you've
17 planned to ask me about that later on.
18 Q. I wasn't going to ask you, but I'll -- forgive me if I don't.
19 Let ask you about one more intercepts and then I'm almost done.
20 Let me just stick with this intercept for a moment though.
21 Is this, as described here, an illustration of the supply
22 arrangement between the RSK -- or let me put it differently, between the
23 VRS and the SVK in March of 1995?
24 A. I really don't know. While I was in logistics, we paid for
25 certain ammunition and other materiel with cattle or grain and similar
1 items. As to how this was done, I really don't know. And I'm referring
2 to Posavina, in fact.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. JORDASH: Let's go to 1D05293. B/C/S page 25; and English
5 page 26.
6 Q. I won't read it to save time, but just read that to yourself. Do
7 you know anything about this?
8 A. Milan Radojcic was a neighbour of mine and a good friend, and I
9 believe that in the past days, or these days, he was -- has been
10 convicted of war crimes. As for these events, I never learnt about them.
11 Q. Okay. We'll leave that there.
12 Let me just ask you, then, now, quickly about the Erdut
13 Agreement. Do you know anything about the Erdut Agreement?
14 A. Of course, I do. I was the one who tried to make it happen, and
15 I took part in its drafting. I even drafted some paragraphs, and I
16 believe I have it with me, if you need it.
17 Q. Would you agree with me that the agreement was signed on the 12th
18 of November, 1995?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And part of that agreement was that all persons had the right to
21 return freely to their place of residence in the region; correct?
22 A. That's correct. And those who were in place, they were allowed
23 to stay, provided that they vacated the private properties they had taken
24 possession of. So if someone from Daruvar, for instance, was able to pay
25 for rent, under an Article 7 of the Erdut Agreement they would not have
1 to return do their original place of residence, and there were similar
2 incidents such as these -- this one.
3 Q. And the Erdut agreement was the precursor to the eventual peace
4 agreement; correct?
5 A. The president of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, was
6 explicit. After long and exhausting negotiations, he said explicitly
7 that he would not sign the agreement. This is the Croatian name for
8 Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and pursuant to that
9 agreement, the Security Council of the UN adopted Resolution 1037 that I
10 had occasion with others to implement.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: A portion of the witness's
12 answer was not heard.
13 MR. JORDASH:
14 Q. Let me just try to clarify this.
15 You talked about Tudjman saying that he explicitly would not sign
16 the agreement --
17 A. Until the issue of the eastern-most parts of Croatia were
18 resolved. That would be Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem
19 according to us. And in Zagreb they referred to that same area as the
20 Croatian Podunavlje or, rather, the Danube river area.
21 Q. So basically what you are saying is that Tudjman needed to see
22 the Erdut Agreement finalised before he would move onto a wider, more
23 broad peace agreement; correct?
24 A. Well, the Dayton Agreements were in fact -- had the same concept.
25 However, he placed a condition on it. He wanted to have the resolution
1 of these areas, he wanted that resolved before he would place his
2 signature on it.
3 Q. Okay. Just --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic is on his feet.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness mentions
6 the agreement that was a condition for Tudjman to sign the agreement, but
7 I never see -- I haven't seen it in the transcript. Although the witness
8 mentioned the name of the agreement itself twice.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps could you seek -- apparently something is
11 What was the condition for Tudjman to sign the agreement? Could
12 you tell us, Witness? No, I'm not asking to you find documents. But
13 could you tell us what the condition was?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The pre-condition was the final
15 resolution of the status of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
16 In other words, the areas where I was working. Practically that was the
17 only portion of the remaining parts of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
18 The rest had been occupied, or as the Croatians would see it, liberated.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, does this meet your concerns?
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the witness would
21 only say which agreement it was that was a condition for the resolution
22 of this agreement -- of this issue.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm referring to the Dayton
24 Peace Accords that dealt with the peaceful resolution in all the areas,
25 in all the republics that had been affected by war. In other words, in
1 Bosnia, in Croatia, and the remaining parts of Krajina.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, you are well beyond the time.
3 MR. JORDASH: Could I ask one question?
4 JUDGE ORIE: One question.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Did Ilija Kojic play a role in bringing about the Erdut
8 A. Well, this was -- this would be a topic that Serbs would have had
9 some benefit from. He played football together with me and I don't want
10 to be unfair to him. I was -- I had connections with the civilian arm of
11 UNPROFOR in the UNPA area, and that's under Resolution 743 of the
12 Security Council of the United Nations. According to the Vance Plan --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Kojic play a role in bringing about the
14 Erdut Agreement? That was the question. Did he or did he not?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really -- in line
18 22, on page 69, there's mention made of football. I did not hear the
19 witness saying that in B/C/S. And I believe this is what is causing the
20 misunderstanding in the role of Kojic and the signing of this agreement.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said that he played something together
22 with you. Could you tell us what it was that he played together with
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The key role. A very important
25 role, if that's easier to interpret.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Our interpreters are fully capable of interpreting
2 someone who speaks at a speed of speech which is acceptable.
3 Mr. Jordash, a key role. Now you want to explore that key role,
4 isn't it?
5 MR. JORDASH: Not explore, but I would like to ask what -- if he
6 could just describe in two sentences what the key role was. That's what
7 I would like to --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Two sentences for the key role.
9 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, are you able to tell us in two sentences
11 what his key role was?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had very good relations, as I've
13 already said, with UNPROFOR and the civilian police of the UNPROFOR
14 which -- which played their role together with their headquarters, and
15 they tried to make this agreement finalised. They interceded with their
16 headquarters in that respect.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Kojic was instrumental in that, if I
18 understood you well. Is that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, Ms. Marcus will now start her
24 cross-examination. Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution. And the
25 best way to assist our interpreters is not to adapt your language to what
1 you consider to be their abilities. There's no need for that. The best
2 way to assist them is to speak at such a speed that they are able to do
3 their job as good as they always do.
4 Ms. Marcus.
5 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I begin,
6 Your Honour, asked me to give our position on the admission of D763, MFI,
7 and we have no objection to the admission of that document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then D763 is admitted into evidence. And was it
9 MFI'd under seal? Not it was not, I think. No, it's a public document.
10 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
11 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Djukic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. I would like to ask you, please, to respond as briefly as you
16 can, so I don't have to interrupt you in your full answers. If we need
17 any follow-up, we will certainly ask you for it. Do you understand?
18 A. I do understand. I will do my best.
19 Q. Thank you. The Posavina corridor was of great strategic
20 importance to the Serbs; isn't that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the reason for this was that the corridor would be the sole
23 route by land between the then-RSK and the municipalities around
24 Banja Luka. In other words, a connection between the Serb-held areas of
25 eastern and western Bosnia and, in fact, the aim was to connect the
1 Krajina through Bosnia to Serbia; is that correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Posavina corridor went through Brcko and alongside Bosanski
4 Samac; is that correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. In fact, the establishment of this corridor or a link through
7 Krajina to Serbia linking the Serb-held areas was part of the original
8 six strategic objectives of the Serb authorities, both in Serbia and in
10 Were you aware of that?
11 A. Yes. The corridor depended -- existed independently of
12 Banja Luka or Belgrade. There was a motorway there. It's not anything
14 Q. I refer Your Honours to P1132.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Was there anything in dispute over what we heard of
16 the last two and half, three minutes? Strategic importance being part of
17 the six strategic goals, that it is -- but what was it Brcko alongside
18 Bosanski Samac?
19 MR. JORDASH: None of that is in dispute. The only query that I
20 would raise would be my learned friend's categorisation in the question
21 of the six strategic objectives belonging both to Serbia and Bosnia, and
22 what I was going to ask was that the question be separated so that we're
23 clear what the witness has agreed to.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Ms. Marcus, there's a request by Mr. Jordash and some guidance
1 from my side as to focus on matters which are in dispute.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. With respect to Your Honour's
4 guidance, there will be a piece of evidence which I will raise later
5 directly relating to this which is very much in dispute. So I would just
6 point that out, that this was laying the ground for that later question.
7 With respect to Mr. Jordash's comment, I will indeed break it up
8 and clarify.
9 Q. Mr. Djukic, this -- establishment of this corridor as a link
10 between the Serb-held areas, I asked you whether it was part of the
11 original six strategic objectives of the Serb authorities, and I asked
12 you both in Serbia and in Bosnia.
13 What I intended with that last part of the question was to ask
14 you whether you knew that both the Serbian authorities in Serbia, as well
15 as the Bosnian Serb authorities, shared that same strategic objective?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
18 respect, I think that it is not clear again which question the witness is
19 answering. All of the six goals or one of them? But it's not specified
20 which one of the six he's being asked about.
21 JUDGE ORIE: A corridor between Semberija and the Krajina appears
22 in Adjudicated Fact 155, and therefore I really wonder whether we have to
23 deal with that because that's usually referred to as the Posavina
24 corridor, isn't it?
25 And if you think that the matter remains unclear, you have an
1 opportunity in re-examination, Mr. Petrovic, to clarify.
2 I think matters as they stand now are sufficiently clear.
3 You may proceed, Ms. Marcus.
4 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Djukic, you served in 1991, you told us, in the Brcko
6 garrison as a military intelligence and security operative. But you also
7 said that you were still officially assigned to Zagreb.
8 So do I understand you correctly, that while you were still
9 officially in a position in the police structures, you were
10 simultaneously, in fact, operating as part of the Brcko JNA garrison as a
11 military intelligence and security operative?
12 A. No, you didn't understand me correctly.
13 I answered precisely to the question from the Defence, that upon
14 my own request I was retired on the 20th of June, 1990. And then from
15 that point on I did not have any responsibilities towards Croatia, in
16 terms of employment or in any other sense.
17 The other question that I clarified is this. If someone was to
18 be deployed in a certain unit, he had to reside and report to the
19 military department, in order to receive his war-time assignment. I
20 received my deregistration from Croatia on the 4th of May, and I -- I
21 took out a new ID card on the 6th of May, and from that point onwards I
22 had nothing to do with Zagreb anymore.
23 Q. And that new ID card, is that a military or a police ID card, or
24 some other kind of ID card?
25 A. I think that it's quite understandable. When I said that I had
1 gone to my place of birth, the village of Cerik, where I registered as a
2 resident and then was issued a personal ID card as a citizen, and it is
3 only on the basis of that personal ID card that I can receive other types
4 of documents in Brcko.
5 Q. Okay. So with that personal ID card from your place of birth,
6 you then went and enrolled with the JNA garrison in Brcko; is that
8 A. I joined the garrison before. It wasn't a condition for a
9 network of associates --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat the
11 last sentence.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did that in 1990.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You said, "It wasn't a condition for a network of
14 associates...," and what did you then say?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say anything else. For a
16 person to be able to work at the garrison and to be mobilised, he was
17 required to get an assignment in his military booklet which was
18 co-ordinated with the military department or the barracks or some other
19 kind of military formation.
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. So if I understand you correctly, once you were mobilised, your
22 role in the military structures was that of intelligence and security
23 operative; is that accurate?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you spoke about the importance of the military booklets in
1 your view, and you told us that those mobilised in January 1992,
2 including some of your relatives, should have their military booklets
3 reflect their mobilisation.
4 Did your military booklet then reflect your mobilisation?
5 A. Yes. But I need to explain because this was not noted earlier.
6 On that day, on the 16th of January, both my sons were mobilised
7 into the 17th Tactical Group. So we came to Cerik, near Brcko, to war,
8 to defend the place. That's where my own mother was.
9 Q. I understand, Mr. Djukic. I'm -- what I'm trying to do is to
10 take different pieces of your evidence where you explain your role and
11 just clarify that part, and then we'll go back and talk in more detail
12 about other areas of your evidence.
13 So what I'm asking you now about is your path, your career,
14 police and military path.
15 Now when you gave us some evidence about April 1992 in Bosanski
16 Samac - and, again, I'm just focussing on your position now - you were
17 asked to participate in a meeting regarding the public security station
18 because you, as you said, "should help build up an organisation with all
19 the required material and assets that a public security should have."
20 So, now, in a military intelligence operative capacity, you were
21 asked to advise the police. Do I have that right?
22 A. No. That meeting, on the 12th of April, was held in Donji Zabar
23 in the Agroposavina facility, which is much closer to my house than to
24 Bosanski Samac, and my assignment was just to draft a document about the
25 internal organisation and systemisation as a draft which would only
1 become final when it was voted on by the Municipal Assembly of Samac.
2 Q. But you were -- at the time you were affiliated with the
3 military, not with the police; is that correct?
4 A. These are armed forces. There was no obstacle there. It was
5 just a kind of assistance. And other than that, Samac, Pelagicevo, and
6 Brcko all belonged to the same corps. But an intelligence operative did
7 not have any boundaries as to his area of work. He would go anywhere
8 where the information led him to. But that was not this kind of task.
9 It was a kind of professional type of task and well-meaning assistance
10 that was being offered.
11 Q. Now, at some point after the takeovers of Bosanski Samac and
12 Brcko but before your injury, you took up duties in the intelligence and
13 security organ in the Bijeljina Corps; is that right?
14 A. No. I was very precise in saying that I was practically
15 permanently employed at the intelligence and security organ of the
16 Eastern Bosnia Corps only from the 17th of November, when I came from
17 Banja Koviljaca Spa for my medical treatment, and then I continued with
18 my treatment in Banja Dvorovi Spa near Bijeljina.
19 Q. Which authority would have possession of your military personnel
20 file; the authorities in Zagreb, the authorities in Bosnia, the
21 authorities in Belgrade?
22 A. No, in Brcko. I was residing in Brcko and my military records
23 are in Brcko, but they would always let them know which unit I was in and
24 I was obliged to report to them any changes.
25 Q. Just so that I understand, does this -- the military activities
1 you undertook with the JNA prior to the breakup, so -- would still be
2 held in Brcko and not in Belgrade. Is that your evidence? The
3 documentation recording your military participation is what I'm referring
5 A. I did not say at any point that I lived in Belgrade during the
6 war-time-period, other than during my medical treatment.
7 Q. Now, you told us that when you were hospitalised to have the
8 shrapnel removed in February 1993, that you were visited by Martic and
9 Kostic. Martic suggested you could help in the ministry and that, if
10 necessary, he would take this up with President Karadzic.
11 Now I'm asking you specifically still about your positions,
12 your -- your path, in terms of the military and the police. Can you
13 explain to us what Martic would have had to take up with
14 President Karadzic?
15 A. Since I was a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
16 Republika Srpska part and not the newly created part of the Republic of
17 Serbian Krajina.
18 Q. So are you saying that in order for your responsibilities to be
19 shifted from the military structures to the police structures, Martic
20 would have had to make that request directly to President Karadzic? Is
21 that how I'm to understand your evidence?
22 A. Yes, you understood it correctly. If my chief is not authorised,
23 Colonel Petar Jakovljevic, to agree to that, because it was planned that
24 I would move up to a higher duty to be a police general. This calling
25 was low-ranking by establishment, so I was supposed to go to the main
1 administration, the Security Administration of Republika Srpska in
2 Han Pijesak to General Tolimir and Salapura as an analyst.
3 Q. You've had a very interesting career path, it seems to me. You
4 were a senior-level police officer before the war. Then you were a
5 military intelligence operative. And then you went back to the police.
6 Did you have to resign from the military, demobilise, in order to
7 take up the police post again?
8 A. No. I have to explain. The Law on the Military provides for the
9 armed forces to be represented by the army and the police; whereas, in
10 war time the police is subordinated to the army. It becomes part of
11 specific military formations.
12 Q. So, in other words, you could have a position and an affiliation
13 with both the police and the military at the same time in a context of
14 war; is that correct?
15 A. No. I could have worked for the police and for the army. But
16 since this is professional work and it's employment, as an employee,
17 according to the Law on Labour, I could be an employee of only one of
18 those structures. It's another thing as how this work overlaps.
19 Q. In practice -- I understand what you are saying. You are saying
20 that you could only be an employee of one of those structures. In
21 practice, could you carry out tasks for both of those structures
23 A. I could. But in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, I did not do
24 anything for the military structure. There was no need for that. I
25 didn't want it, and they didn't ask for me either.
1 One more remark. After I was wounded, my work capacity was
2 reduced. I couldn't carry a backpack and a mortar, so I needed to work
3 on administrative, material, technical kind of tasks; for example,
4 interviews, criminal charges, that type of work. I have the status of a
5 wounded -- or disabled veteran right now.
6 Q. One last question on your career.
7 Who was your highest reporting officer, your highest superior,
8 when you operated as a military intelligence officer?
9 A. General Zdravko Tolimir, who is currently detained by this
11 Q. And what was the position he held at that time, that he was your
13 A. The chief of the main administration for security of the Army of
14 Republika Srpska. And then there were some intermediate steps between
15 us. But in the case of specific assignments, I would receive direct
16 tasks from him personally. He was looking for a way to resolve my
17 housing situation so that I would not have to leave the military, because
18 my apartment in Croatia was confiscated.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
20 There are a number of individuals I'd like to ask you about based
21 upon your experience in Bosanski Samac. These are people who you did not
22 describe, at least not in depth, in your testimony so far.
23 Could you tell us if you know Mile Beronja?
24 A. Yes. The commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade, after the
25 replacement of Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, who was mentioned here, who was
1 replaced when a lot of people were killed and my village of Cerik and my
2 village -- and the village of Avramovina were torched. I believe that
3 that was not done very well. On the 17th of June he helped me, but on
4 27th of August, his position was not that good. It's not a question of
5 whether it was my village or not, but it was important because -- as a
6 strategic point because of an important key road that was going through
7 there, leading to other Serb positions.
8 Q. Mr. Djukic, you mentioned the name of two villages. Could you
9 please repeat the name, you said Dragomir Crni -- I think you said:
10 "Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, who was mentioned here who was replaced
11 when a lot of people were killed in my village of ... and the village
12 of ... and we didn't catch the names of the villages."
13 Could you repeat them, please.
14 A. The village of Avramovina, Avramovina, and a hamlet called
15 Grabov Gaj.
16 Q. And then you said he helped me on 17th of June. Who were you
17 referring to? Beronja or to Djordjevic?
18 A. No. No. It was not about the defence. I said that Djordjevic
19 helped -- promised to help me. He sent a separate platoon to my village.
20 There was a fierce attack on the 17th of June. The enemy was very
21 numerous. I was with my younger son. We managed to throw back the
22 enemy. And then another thing that I appreciate him for even more was
23 that after the fall of Cerik, he issued an order that all military
24 conscripts who were not 18 and who had not served their military term of
25 duty had to leave the war zone. And that is how he saved my son from
1 having to be in the war anymore, and he probably saved his life, too,
2 because my older son was already disabled after the 23rd of March of that
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please restart, Mr. Petrovic.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 The witness explained in response to his
8 question [as interpreted] the number and the circumstances and the manner
9 of the death of the people who were mentioned in one of the previous
10 answers, and I don't see any of that in this answer in lines -- from
11 line -- from 9 to 19, and perhaps it would be useful to clarify that so
12 that we could clarify the misunderstanding.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the last answer before you intervened?
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it in the hands of Ms. Marcus whether
16 she wants to have this clarified or not, because if he told us about
17 it -- he certainly was only asked about whether it was Beronja or
18 Djordjevic, and from the answer it's clear that it was Djordjevic and
19 some additional information was given.
20 I leave it in your hands, Ms. Marcus. Even stronger, I leave it
21 in your hands for tomorrow. And if you think that relevant information,
22 although not responsive to the question, Mr. Petrovic, then you may
23 report this to the Chamber, and then -- or perhaps discuss it with
24 Ms. Marcus first, because these are details apparently outside the scope
25 of the question.
1 Ms. Marcus, in view of your original estimate, what about two
2 sessions for you tomorrow?
3 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, my apologies. I do not think I will be
4 able to finish in two sessions.
5 My original estimate was three and a half hours, but Mr. Petrovic
6 used three hours and 15 minutes, if I'm not mistaken. But with the
7 additional evidence that was led that we didn't know of, plus the
8 additional topics covered by Mr. Jordash, I was going to request a total
9 of four hours. I can certainly try to reduce that to the extent
10 possible, but I'm very sorry, I will not be able -- I do not think I'll
11 be able to finish in two sessions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider your response. But whatever
13 happens, we'll adjourn for the day.
14 Mr. Djukic, we would like to --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
17 Mr. Djukic, we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll continue
18 tomorrow, Thursday, the 8th of March, in this same courtroom, II, at 9.00
19 in the morning. And I again instruct you that you should not speak or
20 communicate in any other way with whomever about your testimony, whether
21 already given or still to be given.
22 We stand adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of March,
25 2012, at 9.00 a.m.