Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18069

 1                           Thursday, 8 March 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica

11     Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

12             Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             I would like to briefly address a few matters.

15             First of all, the Chamber would very much like to conclude the

16     testimony of this witness today.  If we would not manage to do that

17     before quarter to 2.00, then there are a few options.  Either to extend

18     slightly the last session in the morning.  If that would not be

19     sufficient, we would consider to additionally sit this afternoon.

20     Unfortunately, it's not possible to do that at the beginning of the

21     afternoon because there would not even be two Judges.  Therefore, we

22     would then re-start later this afternoon.  But, to the extent possible,

23     the Chamber would urge the parties to see whether they with conduct their

24     cross-examinations in such a way that we could conclude in the normal

25     sessions.

Page 18070

 1             That is one.

 2             Second.  Mr. Jordash, we received yesterday a message about the

 3     availability of Sir Ivor Roberts.  This Chamber has accommodated in every

 4     respect all the wishes.  We have scheduled him exactly on the day -- even

 5     after we had to wait a month, we scheduled him exactly on the day you

 6     indicated he was available.  Now if would be a matter of one or two days,

 7     then we might even then consider - I'm not saying that we will - we would

 8     consider to change that date slightly.  But now another two months is

 9     really not something that the Chamber can accept.  And if you say he

10     can't make it, to testify in a court is a civil duty, and the Stanisic

11     Defence knows exactly that if a witness prioritises his activities in

12     such a way that he would be unavailable for giving testimony, that, of

13     course, you, as the calling party, you know exactly how to obtain the

14     support of the Chamber to -- to -- let me say to encourage the witness to

15     appear in court at such a time that it still makes sense to hear his

16     testimony.

17             You know exactly how to do that.  I'm not going to further expand

18     on that.  Of course, the preferable way would be to come to an agreement

19     one way or another.  But we even on the days he would arrive then, he

20     should return then, we fully accommodated that after having waited for

21     month.  So, therefore, there is not an option.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, I hear what you're saying precisely,

23     and we've appreciated - and we do appreciate - how patient Your Honour

24     has been with this issue, and we're going to do everything we can to

25     ensure that the Court and this trial is -- is not in any way obstructed

Page 18071

 1     by this particular witness.  And we apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You do not have to apologise.  Well, it's

 3     apparently -- I -- I -- the Chamber doesn't think that it's the Stanisic

 4     Defence which is to be blamed in any way for it, and the Defence, as

 5     always, has the full support of the Chamber to present its witnesses as

 6     it deems fit.

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  These were the matters I'd like to raise.

 9             Good morning, Mr. Djukic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the office has

13     announced to me as I arrived here that I would be testifying roughly for

14     eight hours, and this covered both the Prosecution and the Defence.  The

15     yesterday's hearing was highly stressful for me, not because of you, but

16     because of certain obligations that await me as I return home.

17             Let me tell you that as a result of my work for the mission

18     that -- on which suspicions have been cast here, I had to undergo a heart

19     surgery --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no. Mr., Mr. -- No suspicion has been cast on

21     anything.

22             Please proceed.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I kindly request that should I feel

24     ill - this is nitroglycerin - may I be allowed to sit aside or leave the

25     courtroom in order to inject myself with it?

Page 18072

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any need in that respect, please address

 2     me, and then we'll consider your request.  And, of course, we would

 3     always allow you to take whatever necessary measure in order to not to

 4     suffer any physical damage.  So that would mean that we would allow you

 5     to leave the court for that.

 6             Then, of course, we would inquire in how much time that takes,

 7     et cetera.  But please be assured that should you address me, that we'll

 8     take the appropriate approach.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two minutes more, please.

12             Over the first break, I will receive the medical findings

13     concerning my blood pressure, which is decisive for my future treatment.

14             Secondly, Your Honours, I would kindly ask you to instruct the

15     Defence to insert into the file of the documents that I brought along and

16     gave to them this thank you note from the Croatian authorities where they

17     address me as the chief of police and express their gratitude.  This may

18     be of significance for my further discussions with the Prosecution.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The parties are free to submit what they want to

20     submit, and to make it a condition for future conversations with the

21     Prosecution is not something this Chamber would expect you to do.  But

22     the Chamber is not ordering any party to do any such thing.

23             I also say this, now knowing approximately what the document is

24     about, parties are free to do it.  If they wish not to do it, the Chamber

25     will not order them.


Page 18073

 1             Please be seated, Mr. Djukic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djukic, I would like to remind you that you are

 4     still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the

 5     beginning of your testimony.  And you may have noticed already that the

 6     Chamber tries to do its utmost best to have your examination be concluded

 7     today so that you can leave The Hague after that.

 8             Ms. Marcus, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

11                           WITNESS:  PETAR DJUKIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Djukic.

15        A.   Good morning.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Can I please have private session.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18074

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20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


Page 18075

 1             MS. MARCUS:

 2        Q.   Mr. Djukic, when we stopped yesterday, I was asking you about

 3     certain individuals in relation to Bosanski Samac.  Please answer as

 4     briefly as possible.  I'll just give you a name.  You can just tell me

 5     what their position was, to your knowledge, in Bosanski Samac.  Do you

 6     know Milan Josic?

 7        A.   Very well.

 8        Q.   What was his position?

 9        A.   Active-duty captain of the Yugoslav People's Army, with the air

10     force.  His position was that of commander of the Obudovac Special

11     Detachment; one of the elite units.  He was later to become the Chief of

12     Staff of the Posavina Brigade.

13        Q.   Milan Maksimovic?

14        A.   An intelligence officer with the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

15        Q.   Jovan Kujundzic.

16        A.   I'm not familiar with the family name of Kujundzic.  Or I simply

17     don't remember.

18        Q.   Sasa Culibrk.

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Nenad Mitic.

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Davor Subotic.

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And, finally, for this list, Aleksandar Vukovic.

25        A.   No.

Page 18076

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             Now, there's been evidence --

 3        A.   You're welcome.

 4        Q.   -- in this case that prior to the takeover of Bosanski Samac, and

 5     prior to the arrival by helicopter of the volunteers at Batkusa, to which

 6     you testified, the SDS Main Board suggested to the commander of

 7     Tactical Group 17, Stevan Nikolic, that they recruit through friends and

 8     acquaintances of the SDS members in Samac in the Serbian MUP, Dragan

 9     Djordjevic, aka Crni, and Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli, and a group of

10     30 men from the FRY to assist in the takeover of Bosanski Samac.

11             Now although you testified that you did not enjoy credibility

12     with the SDS, were you aware of this suggestion made to Stevan Nikolic?

13     Kindly, a yes or no answer will suffice, please.

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   There's also been evidence that members of the SRS were sent

16     along with Crni and Debeli as part of this training.  Isn't that

17     accurate, to your knowledge?

18        A.   It is accurate that they were sent along, but I am not aware of

19     Crni and Debeli being involved in that.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, I refer you to P1516 and P1417.

21        Q.   According to the evidence in this case, approximately 18

22     volunteers from Samac were added to this group from the FRY, plus Crni

23     and Debeli, and all 50 or so of them were trained in Lezimir and then in

24     Ilok.  You were not involved in any way in the training in Lezimir or

25     Pajzos prior to the take-over of Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

Page 18077

 1        A.   I did indicate that it was only the JNA that I recognised;

 2     whereas, the other structures, specifically the paramilitaries, were not

 3     of interest to me at all.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus you referred to first to Lezimir and then

 5     Ilok and then later Lezimir or Pajzos.  Is there any risk that the

 6     witness would be confused by that?

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, the first time I mentioned I had said

 8     Ilok, Pajzos.  Perhaps it's not reflected.

 9        Q.   You knew that I when I said Ilok, I was talking about Pajzos.

10     Did you understand that in my question?

11        A.   You made a couple of mistakes but I don't have the right to

12     correct you.  Batkusa was mispronounced, and it's not the Main Board of

13     the SDS but the municipal board.  But I was cautioned to give a yes or no

14     answer, so I will adhere to that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Matters are sufficiently clear, I think.  Please

16     proceed.

17             Oh.  Yes.

18             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, may we have a reference for the last

19     question, please, the evidence that my learned friend is referring to?

20             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  I was just about to give it.  It's P1576 and

21     P1416.  P1576 and P1416.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

25        Q.   When you were asked earlier in your testimony about Pajzos, you

Page 18078

 1     answered:

 2             "It was a listening centre, and I was not responsible for that

 3     centre, nor was I well versed in what was going on there.  I did not have

 4     access to it."

 5             I believe your comment referred to the pre-war period.  Did you

 6     have occasion to visit Pajzos any time in 1991 or thereafter?

 7        A.   This was mentioned on several occasions.  I arrived in the area

 8     on 15th of March, 1993, and the laws of physics that dictate that I could

 9     not have been in two places at once.

10             Let me explain to you --

11        Q.   Mr. Djukic, I'm sorry --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness mentioned Pajzos, but we didn't

13     catch what he said.

14             MS. MARCUS:

15        Q.   I interrupted you, I'm sorry.  I'm just trying to focus.  Before

16     the takeover of Bosanski Samac, did you have occasion to visit Pajzos

17     between 1991 and up until the takeover of Bosanski Samac?

18        A.   Between 1991 and 1993, I was not present in the area of Vukovar

19     at all.  It was an area where fighting was going on, and I -- I wasn't

20     able to access the area at all.

21        Q.   There's been evidence presented in this case that

22     Franko Simatovic came to the training ground at Ilok, Pajzos, held a

23     briefing, and informed those who had been trained that they were to be

24     deployed to Bosanski Samac by helicopter and that the objective was to

25     secure Bosanski Samac and the surrounding villages.  In attendance at

Page 18079

 1     this briefing, according to the evidence, were Debeli, Crni, and

 2     Stevan Todorovic.  Were you ever informed of this briefing?

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, that's P1516.

 4        A.   No.  I didn't know the name of Franko Simatovic.

 5             Let me just say that I didn't need any volunteers or anyone else

 6     to train special police units because I know that myself very well.

 7        Q.   So you were not aware of the role of Franko Simatovic in

 8     training, planning, or ordering in connection to the Bosanski Samac

 9     takeover; is that correct?

10        A.   That is correct.  I heard of Simatovic only from people lacking

11     in seriousness, braggarts who thought that they would add to their own

12     significance if they said that they were in his company.

13        Q.   In your testimony at page 17942, you described the arrival of

14     Stevan Todorovic and a number of volunteers by helicopter to Batkusa - I

15     hope I pronounced it correct this time.  According to the evidence in

16     this case, this deployment to Bosanski Samac occurred the day after the

17     briefing by Franko Simatovic.  This group arrived in Bosanski Samac the

18     day before you were invited to the meeting to advise the public security

19     station; is that correct?  Yes or no, please, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question is

22     very complex.  There is the role of Simatovic that the witness knows

23     nothing about, the arrival of the helicopters at Batkusa, the meeting

24     that the witness attended.  So what -- what, in fact, is witness being

25     asked?  What kind of answer is he supposed to give to this?  There are at

Page 18080

 1     least four or five questions contained in this one.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, as a matter of fact, I considered only the

 3     last line to be the question.  Is it correct that the group that arrived,

 4     that they arrived the day before you were invited for the meeting?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But I cannot answer with a

 6     simple "yes" or "no" when Madam Prosecutor keeps using the term that I

 7     was a councillor of the public security station which is not feasible.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is why the question has been rephrased.  And

 9     Ms. Marcus will take care that questions will not necessarily be

10     composite and clear.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Now, you stated that these volunteers agreed to be under the

14     command of the 17th Tactical Group.  In fact, other evidence in this

15     cases conforms with that information that you provided.  According to

16     this evidence, two days before the takeover, Dragan Djordjevic, aka,

17     Crni, had attended a meeting with Todorovic, Blagoje Simic, and others.

18     And they discussed, including the Red Berets, in the existing

19     17th Tactical Group of the JNA?

20             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, that's P1576.

21        Q.   Now, here's my question to you.

22             As soon as combat operations began, Crni and his group were, in

23     fact, temporarily subordinated to TG 17 which was comprised of a

24     combination of those from the FRY and the volunteers from Samac who had

25     been trained in Pajzos and Lezimir; is that correct?

Page 18081

 1        A.   Quite correct.  However, I would like to note that among the

 2     group that arrived in Batkusa, there was also a group of local men who

 3     had worked in Serbia or Croatia earlier.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  And, Your Honours, I refer Your Honours to P1416, in

 6     connection with that previous question.

 7        Q.   Now, you then described the takeover of the public security

 8     station on the night of the 16th to 17th of April, 1992.  You said,

 9     though, that Colonel Nikolic, commander of the 17th Tactical Group, was

10     "not kept abreast of these things."

11             So Nikolic did not lead the takeover of the public security

12     station on the night of the 16th to 17th April, 1992.  Is that your

13     evidence?

14        A.   Yes.  And it's not a takeover but, rather, a restructuring of

15     this station because half of the Serbs were already in the station.

16        Q.   So it was rather the volunteers who arrived with Stevan Todorovic

17     who led that restructuring of the station, as you say?

18        A.   Yes.  However, he offered to some Croats and Muslims to continue

19     working there, but under rules that he would enforce.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow, the

21     interpretation that the witness received was not clear enough.  It wasn't

22     clear whether what was referred to was Stevan Todorovic, the volunteers,

23     or all of them.  So the interpretation was not clear enough for the

24     witness to answer properly.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness answered the question.  But

Page 18082

 1     perhaps you'd verify whether he understood the question well, Ms. Marcus.

 2     And perhaps by -- in view of the answer he gave, to seek confirmation

 3     that he understood your question well.

 4             MS. MARCUS:

 5        Q.   Mr. Djukic I will repeat my question and your answer to you.  My

 6     question was:

 7             "So it was rather the volunteers who arrived with

 8     Stevan Todorovic who led that restructuring of the station, as you say?"

 9             Your answer was:

10             "Yes.  However, he offered to some Croats and Muslims to continue

11     working there, but under rules that he would enforce."

12             Did you understand my question and is that the appropriate

13     answer?

14        A.   I did understand it, and I'm very pleased with the way you are

15     questioning me.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now you testified that Simo Zaric complained to

17     Stevan Nikolic about these volunteers who had arrived by helicopter and

18     that Nikolic replied: "That the Government of Serbia, in a decree of

19     1992, proclaimed that volunteers could report to fight."

20             So is it your evidence that the volunteers who arrived were those

21     who were authorised by the government of Serbia to come volunteer to join

22     the fight in Bosanski Samac?

23        A.   Neither did I say that, nor was it that way.  The government

24     allows its citizens to volunteer, especially if they hail from a certain

25     area, and it certainly would not send anyone to another area.  That's not

Page 18083

 1     the government's job.

 2        Q.   Well, my question was whether the volunteers were authorised by

 3     the government of Serbia to come volunteer.  Your answer says that the

 4     government allows its citizens to volunteer.  Can you tell us -- can you

 5     tell us which branch of the government of Serbia you're referring to?

 6        A.   I'm referring to a -- to an act, actually, of -- a legal act, and

 7     that law is actually implemented by other organs or other departments.

 8     If you allow me, a provision in Serbia -- or, rather, a decree in Serbia

 9     is a sub-law or a bylaw.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, Mr. Djukic, what Ms. Marcus would like to

11     know is what authority would approve volunteers to -- to join in military

12     activity.  Under that law and bylaws.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm in Serbia and I will not be

14     punished if I go to the battle-field in Bosanski Samac.  But the state

15     does not have any obligation in respect of me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that the decree that proclaimed that

17     volunteers could report to fight, that all volunteers - without any

18     further decision - would be free once they had reported themselves to

19     join in such military activity, or was there any decision needed to

20     approve the joinder of volunteers in the military activity?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone had to subordinate

22     themselves to the Yugoslav People's Army.  That was the obligation.  But

23     in Belgrade, a large number of centres sprang up that actually organised

24     volunteers and the first person who did that - and he was never taken to

25     account for that - was Vuk Draskovic and his guard went to Gospic.

Page 18084

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   You testified at page 17954 that you went to speak to Debeli

 4     after Nikolic left the area to ask him for reinforcements.

 5             Do you recall the date of this discussion?

 6        A.   In early June.  But I can't recall the exact date.

 7        Q.   What kind of reinforcements were you talking about?  Very

 8     briefly, please.

 9        A.   It had exclusively to do with the intervention platoon in

10     Pelagicevo.  I was trained and I took part in the training, and this

11     involved exclusively people from Pelagici; acquaintances or even friends,

12     I could say, of mine.

13        Q.   What position was Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli, in, that you

14     asked him to provide reinforcements?

15        A.   The then-Chief of Staff of the Posavina Brigade, who was the

16     chief operative in the brigade, and subordinated to Commander Djordjevic.

17        Q.   When asked about your conversation with Debeli, you said at page

18     17955:

19             "He said that they had to fight really hard to appoint those

20     duties," I believe you meant "to be appointed to those duties," "that is

21     correct.  They were the first people, members of the brigade who had not

22     graduated from the Military Academy of the Yugoslavia army.  He told me

23     that it was a great pity that I was on the wrong side, that I was not a

24     member of the SDS, and only after I explained to him what I was and that

25     I had passed with my units without any losses, he told me that he had

Page 18085

 1     been a police non-commissioned officer, that he was dismissed from the

 2     police, that he had a very negative view of us, people who still

 3     supported Tito's idealogy, Milosevic's ideology, and that of the

 4     Communist Party of Yugoslavia.  He asked me -- and he asked me, once

 5     again, to try and change my position.  And he even said that if I were to

 6     join this radical party, that I might even be conferred a rank there."

 7             Weren't you already part of the JNA with a rank?

 8        A.   He considered that I was a promising individual because I was 48

 9     years old, and he thought that I could become a Chetnik Vojvoda, duke.

10     Except that instead of the SDS, it should be the Radical Party, where you

11     read the SDS there.  Or perhaps it was misinterpreted.

12        Q.   Now your evidence is that when you spoke to Debeli he did not

13     mention that he was Serbian DB.  Is that how you knew that Debeli was not

14     affiliated with the Serbian DB?  Is that how you drew that conclusion?

15        A.   In brief, I was equally well acquainted with public and state

16     security, which you can also see if you read one of my studies.  Now, the

17     security of Serbia had, under its operative control, both Vojvoda Seselj

18     and all his men.

19        Q.   Can you explain what you meant by "I was equally well acquainted

20     with public and state security"?  Very briefly, please.

21        A.   I -- a well-educated member of the police, the only general from

22     that period who is still alive and free.

23        Q.   Now you said, according to the transcript, the state -- "the

24     security of Serbia had, under its operative control, both Vojvoda Seselj

25     and all his men."  Are you saying that the State Security Service of

Page 18086

 1     Serbia had Seselj under their control?  Is that your evidence?

 2        A.   Certainly.  At one point in time, he was even in prison.

 3        Q.   Now to go back to my original question -- I'm sorry.  One moment,

 4     please.

 5             Sorry, Mr. Djukic, just in response -- my last question was about

 6     Seselj.  And you said:

 7             "Certainly.  At one point in time, he was even in prison."

 8             What -- what time are you talking about; and for what?

 9        A.   For unauthorised trips to Kosovo where he fermented -- where he

10     fermented unrest among the Albanians.  So he was sentenced to a prison

11     term of a month.

12        Q.   Mr. Djukic, I'm really trying to understand exactly what you are

13     saying, so pardon me repeated questions on this.

14             Are you saying that Seselj was being -- was under the control of

15     the state security; or are you saying they were monitoring his

16     activities, operatively speaking?

17             What precisely are you saying about the relationship between the

18     Serbian state security and Seselj?

19        A.   Surveillance.  Now, in what manner and how frequently, I don't

20     know because that was something that was considered secret of that

21     service, and I was not a member of the service, unfortunately.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now going back to the question about Debeli.

23             You told us that you believed that he was not affiliated with the

24     Serbian SDB.  Was that based on the fact that he didn't mention that he

25     was so affiliated?

Page 18087

 1        A.   No.  I presided over an inter-republic commission for the

 2     promotion and improvement of work of the service, and I said that if you

 3     were once dismissed from a service, if a staff member was once in -- once

 4     dismissed from a service, that he would never again be able to apply and

 5     to be employed by any other service in the former Yugoslavia.  And, as

 6     for him --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last part.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

 9     question [sic] where you said, "And as for him," apparently referring to

10     Debeli.  What did you then say?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was sacked.  He was dismissed

12     from the Public Security Service of Serbia.  And such a person would

13     never again be employable anywhere in Yugoslavia as an active policeman.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I made a mistake when I put "question," but

15     that's clear on the transcript now.  Of course, I was referring to the

16     answer of the witness.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:

19        Q.   So that is your assumption.  Did I understand that correctly?

20        A.   Well, no, that was the conclusion.  That was a conclusion, an

21     obligation.  If a person was dismissed from service in Kragujevac, he

22     would not be employable in Osijek, for instance.  That was our joint

23     position.

24        Q.   Now, you also testified at page 17954 that you had an occasion to

25     speak with Crni directly.  In fact, you later told us that you spoke to

Page 18088

 1     him more thereafter, but this was the first time you mentioned that.  And

 2     this was when you went to ask for his assistance.

 3             Do you recall when this was?  Was this just at the time in

 4     June 1992, after you spoke with Debeli?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was very important to me to protect my village because

 6     all my property had been seized in Zagreb, and other than human lives,

 7     the property that I owned was at -- was valuable.  It was some 400.000

 8     German marks.  That would be what I would assess it as.  And you agree

 9     that would be even a lot for this country, let alone for my country.

10        Q.   You also testified that quote -- that you, "... addressed him as

11     a proper soldier.  And he told me, You are in no way bound to stand

12     before me as a soldier would."  So did Crni not view you as a soldier?

13        A.   No.  But from some sources in Pelagicevo, he learned about my

14     credibility and my biography.  And unlike some people there, he knew that

15     I was much better versed than he was.

16        Q.   You said:

17             "Crni said that he had some information about me and that he was

18     more than glad to accept me as his corroborator and that I was yet to

19     benefit from my acquaintance with him."

20             How would Crni have had this information about you?  Is it what

21     you just said, from some sources in Pelagicevo?

22        A.   Yes.  The president of the SDS, Dusan Tanasic and Crni knew that

23     the citizens of Pelagicevo were in favour of my taking over the brigade

24     and not him.

25        Q.   Who appointed Crni as commander of the brigade?

Page 18089

 1        A.   Primarily he was appointed by the SDS, but the then-acting

 2     Drincic [phoen] or Dencic who was a colonel at the Drina Corps, he was

 3     the one who issued this order at the insistence of the SDS because Crni

 4     was the first civilian who headed the army.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness did not fully

 6     complete his sentence.  Could he please repeat it.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The corps reference is incorrect,

 8     and I see that the interpreters also had a remark to make, that not

 9     everything was reflected in the transcript.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Could you please repeat the last part of your answer?

12             You told us that he was the one who issued this order at the

13     insistence of the SDS because Crni was the first civilian who headed the

14     army.  And what did you then say?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That Dencic was an acting -- of the

16     Eastern Bosnia Corps, which is the largest military formation in the area

17     of Eastern Bosnia.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

19             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up P1417.

20        Q.   Mr. Djukic, what I'm going to show you now on your screen is a

21     statement made by Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni?

22             MS. MARCUS:  May I please have page --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Under seal, Ms. Marcus.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Not to be broadcast, please.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 18090

 1             MS. MARCUS:  May I please have page 3 in English and also page 3

 2     in B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Can I draw your attention to the paragraph starting:  "At the

 4     beginning of April..."  It says:

 5             "At the beginning of April, a group of Radical Party members went

 6     to training at the training centre near Ilok in the town of Pajzos.  A

 7     group of 18 men from Samac also came to the centre for training.  I was

 8     at the centre as an instructor, although I attended to other jobs and did

 9     not train these specific men.  When they concluded their training, these

10     men returned to Samac, and 30 men from Serbia went with them as

11     reinforcement.  I was with these volunteers, as was Aleksandar Vukovic,

12     who was killed, and we headed for Samac as volunteers.  We went for

13     patriotic reasons to help the Serbian people in the fight."

14             As can you see, Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, himself describes

15     his involvement in the preparatory training for the takeover of Bosanski

16     Samac.

17             I'll point you to another part of this document and then ask you

18     a few questions.  At the next paragraph it says:

19             "The entire group arrived by helicopter at the village of Batkusa

20     on 11 April 1992.  Following a decision of the Samac authorities and with

21     the approval of Lieutenant-Colonel Stevan Nikolic, the commander of the

22     17th Tactical Group, the entire group was attached to the army, and on 17

23     April 1992, between 50 and 60 of us entered Samac under the command of

24     the Army of Republika Srpska.  This unit was composed of Radical Party

25     members from Serbia, people from Samac who were at the training centre,

Page 18091

 1     and some others who were attached.  After the liberation of Samac and the

 2     clearing of the surrounding villages, there is confirmation for the

 3     establishment of a special purposes battalion.  This is what the

 4     commander of the 17th Tactical Group, Stevan Nikolic, requested and

 5     issued an order with a view to this.  I was appointed commander of the

 6     battalion, and after its establishment, this battalion went to break

 7     through a corridor towards Brcko."

 8             This report by Crni is in conformity with the evidence you have

 9     given; isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes, save for the fact that Crni did not break the corridor open

11     to Brcko.  It was a minor-scale blockade in a village.  Captain Brkic

12     with an armoured mechanized unit who broke the corridor open.

13             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16             My learned friend spent reading to the witness half a page worth

17     of text on something that he had already spoken to only to ask him if

18     this was correct.  And there's at least ten facts contained in that

19     segment, in that portion, where he is supposed to answer whether it's

20     correct or not, and he had already spoken to certain issues and presented

21     views that differed from those contained there.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  What is your objection, Mr. Petrovic?

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the questions are --

24     confused the witness and they are designed to be misleading rather than

25     to shed light for Their Honours' benefit.  Each and every part or fact

Page 18092

 1     contained there should be put to the witness and asked to get his

 2     confirmation on if it's correct or not, rather than to putting a question

 3     that would relate to all these facts together.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What Ms. Marcus did is she put a piece of evidence

 6     before the witness to give him an opportunity to comment on it or to

 7     state that it is in conformity with his own evidence, and that's exactly

 8     what the witness did.  He said this is all conform my testimony, apart

 9     from one point, and then he referred to something which is not in the

10     statement - that is that the breakthrough to Brcko, because the part read

11     to him was only about whether they went to do that, not that they did

12     yet.

13             The objection is denied.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your

16     permission.  I'm sorry to interrupt.  Five minutes ago the witness said

17     that he knew nothing --

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  Please forgive

19     me.  If Mr. Petrovic would like to put different aspects of this to the

20     witness on re-examination, he's perfectly entitled to do so.  But to go

21     back now and basically do a re-examination in the middle of the

22     cross-examination, Your Honours, I feel is inappropriate.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And certainly not in the form that you start

24     discussing the evidence.  If you have any further questions for the

25     witness, you can put them in re-examination, Mr. Petrovic, and you are

Page 18093

 1     fully entitled to challenge whatever the witness said in

 2     cross-examination.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MS. MARCUS:

 5        Q.   Mr. Djukic, Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, was arrested, and he

 6     spent about ten days in detention according to the evidence in this case.

 7     Were you informed of Crni's arrest?

 8        A.   Yes.  But I had no part in it.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  And Your Honours, that reference was to P1417 and

10     P1416.

11        Q.   Do you know why Crni was arrested?

12        A.   Because of wilful behaviour and the attempt to break the corridor

13     open at Crkvine.

14             MS. MARCUS:  May I have please P1416, page 3 in English and page

15     4 in B/C/S.  P1416.

16        Q.   What you see coming up on the screen in front of you, Mr. Djukic,

17     is an RS MUP Bijeljina information report on the situation in Bosanski

18     Samac.  The report is dated the 19th of November, 1992.

19             As you can see here in the middle of this page, it says that

20     after Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, was arrested, the Bosanski Samac

21     War Presidency went to the MUP of Serbia with a written request to

22     redeploy Crni and his group to the area where combat operations were

23     taking place.

24             Were you aware of these efforts to request the Serbian MUP to

25     have Crni released from prison and brought back to Bosanski Samac?

Page 18094

 1             Yes or no, please, sir.

 2        A.   Kindly understand my position.  I had an order where, after my

 3     wounding, I had to rejoin the corps on the 30th of November.  I know of

 4     this event only from what I heard from the officers visiting me in Banja,

 5     where I was undergoing treatment.  So I kindly ask you not to ask me

 6     about this.  Whatever has to do with Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, boils down

 7     to what I heard from him, that he had arrived from Krajina.  And his CV

 8     before the arrival in Zabari on the 12th of April is something that I

 9     know nothing of, and that's why I didn't give any answers to that.

10             I have no remarks to make on what you've presented here to me

11     because I knew nothing of Djordjevic until I met him; that's to say,

12     before April of 1992, before that part of his life, I knew nothing what

13     was going on there.  I knew that there was some misconduct on his part.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djukic, the question simply was whether you were

15     aware of efforts to request the Serbian MUP to have Crni released from

16     prison and brought back to, as the original text says, to -- to the area

17     where combat operations were taking place.

18             Now, I do understand.  You say, "I know of this event only from

19     what I heard from the officers visiting me in Banja," where you were

20     undergoing treatment.  Do I then understand that you say you knew of

21     these efforts to request the Serbian MUP to have Crni released only

22     because those who came to visit you told you about it and that you have

23     no direct knowledge of that?  Is that your testimony?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to tell you that there was

25     a publication that I made in a manual.  And as for the goal of my

Page 18095

 1     testimony here, I correctly understood the brochure on page 4.

 2             Thirdly, nobody could have gone through to the MUP of Serbia save

 3     through private channels to ensure the release of Crni, because it was

 4     not within the jurisdiction of the Serbian MUP to have or make sure that

 5     somebody who was arrested in this way be released.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'd like to hear from you is an answer to the

 7     question, not what could have happened or could not have happened.  Do

 8     you have any knowledge of an effort to request the MUP that Crni be

 9     released and sent back to the area of combat?

10             Do you have any knowledge, first.  Do you have any personal

11     knowledge of it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just say that I'm testifying

13     about what I heard, saw, and what I know, which is a rule that you apply

14     here.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, do you have any personal knowledge of such an

16     effort?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you hear by visitors of such an effort being

21     made?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, please proceed.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             Can I please have P1417 again, not to be broadcast, and could I

Page 18096

 1     have page 3 in English and page 4 in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Mr. Djukic, this is back to Crni's statement.

 3             As can you see here, he says:

 4             "My arrest followed soon after, and I spent about -- around ten

 5     days in detention.  After my release, Colonel Petar Salapura told me that

 6     I had not been arrested but had been put away in a safe place because of

 7     an assassination that had been planned against me and offered me to stay

 8     in the fight.  I did not agree to this, and I went to Yugoslavia to put

 9     my thoughts together and come to terms with everything.

10             "While I was at home, the Samac municipality War Staff sent

11     various memos and made phone calls, as did Colonel Salapura and

12     Colonel Novica Simic, via the Serbian state security, requesting my

13     return to Bosnia, with as many men as possible and one special unit.  I

14     agreed and arrived in Samac at the beginning of October."

15             Now, Mr. Djukic, I am aware that you were injured at this time.

16     We are aware of that.  I'd like to know, did you ever learn of

17     Jovica Stanisic's direct involvement, the Serbian SDB's direct

18     involvement, in the release of Crni?

19        A.   Petar Salapura is my chief.  He was Tolimir's deputy in the main

20     security administration of the Army of Republika Srpska and would

21     never -- he would never stoop so low as to ask -- as to ask Crni to help

22     his army.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter isn't sure about the last part

24     of the answer.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last part of your answer.

Page 18097

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Petar Salapura is my boss, and he

 2     got engaged to find a flat for me in order that I should be able to stay

 3     in the army.  He was a top-notch officer and later a general, and he

 4     would never ask a citizen such as Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, to help him.

 5     Again, it would be down to the civilian structures of Bosanski Samac,

 6     Blagoje, Simic, and others.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I now invite you to answer the question.  The

 8     question was whether you ever learned about a direct involvement of

 9     Mr. Stanisic in the release of Crni.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know who Jovica Stanisic

11     was at the time, at all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is you did never learn about his

13     involvement.

14             Then the --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- next question was whether you learned anything

17     about the Serbian SDB's direct involvement in the release of Crni.  Did

18     you ever learn about that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that no one, whether you trust him or

21     not, ever told you about such a thing, and you have no other knowledge

22     about it.  Is that correctly understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correctly understood.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

25             Or I am looking at the clock.  Could I, before we continue,

Page 18098

 1     Ms. Marcus, in terms of time, of course, the Chamber has to consider

 2     whether or not to extend the session.  Could you give us a further

 3     estimate?

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I would say two and a half hours, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need, Mr. Petrovic?  As

 6     matters stand now.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this time, 15

 8     minutes at the most.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes, you said.

10             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash.

12             MR. JORDASH:  Five minutes, at the moment.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes.

14             Now, 15 plus 5 is 20.  Two and a half hours is two sessions of 75

15     minutes.  Therefore, if everyone would be very disciplined, and if no one

16     bothers me during the break with matters which causes delay in returning

17     to this courtroom, and we'll try to avoid that, that two sessions for

18     you, and then 20 minutes would still stay within a last session of one

19     hour and five minutes, instead of 75.

20             If the parties could commit themselves to that, then the Chamber

21     will refrain from organising a session in the second half of the

22     afternoon, or at least to explore the possibility for such a session.

23             I'm looking at all of you.  No one seems to jump up and to say,

24     Please explore a further session in the second half of the afternoon.

25             Then we'll proceed that way.  And we'll resume at a quarter to

Page 18099

 1     11.00 sharp.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djukic, I got the impression that you received

 5     the results of the measurement of your blood pressure and that I take it

 6     from your presence here that it's not prohibitive from -- for continuing;

 7     is that correct?

 8             We don't need to have the results in -- in numbers --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no.  The pulse is 96,

10     blood pressure is good.  I have 34 more units until it becomes critical.

11     I have taken a beta blocker, so there is no need to slow down proceedings

12     or speed them up on my account.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We will leave the pace to Ms. Marcus.

14             Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             I'm going to ask the Court Officer to show two different

17     documents on the left and right of the screen, both the B/C/S versions.

18     We've spoken about it, and I understand it is technically possible, and

19     please not to broadcast them.

20             On one side, could we have P1417, B/C/S page 6.  And on the other

21     side P179, B/C/S page 17.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be broadcast.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             Perhaps I have the wrong page for P1417.  It was supposed to be

25     the signature page.  Ah okay.  Thank you.

Page 18100

 1        Q.   Yes, so, Mr. Djukic, you what you see before you on the left side

 2     is the statement by Crni that we were looking at before.  And on the

 3     right side, you see Crni's autobiography which is from his Serbian DB

 4     file.  That is dated the 25th of February, 1992.

 5             Can I draw -- that is this page, this page in that file is of

 6     that date.  Can I draw your attention to the last line of this paragraph,

 7     which states:

 8             "I have been on the front since 20th September 1991 and in this

 9     unit since 5th October 1991."

10             As you can see by the header, the unit to which he refers is a

11     special purpose unit of the Serbian MUP and the location was Lezimir.

12             Mr. Djukic, isn't it a fact that you were just simply not aware

13     of Crni's membership in the special purposes unit of the Serbian MUP by

14     the time you encountered him in Bosanski Samac?

15             MR. JORDASH:  I do object to that question.  It's not designed to

16     elicit a fact.  The witness isn't away.  The reason why he's not aware is

17     not going to be revealed by that question.  This has more of the

18     hallmarks of a closing speech designed to show Your Honours the evidence

19     and remind Your Honours of the evidence rather than elicit it from the

20     witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Ms. Marcus, is there any need to confirm at this moment that the

23     witness or with these documents to seek further confirmation that the

24     witness is not aware of -- of -- well, to say the -- the role and the

25     links of Crni with the -- with the -- with the Serbian MUP?

Page 18101

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I have to say, you know, the Defence

 2     sometimes says we put our case and sometimes says we don't.  I'm putting

 3     this to the witness.  I'm asking him if he has knowledge of it.  In my

 4     view, Your Honour, respectfully, I think this is perfectly appropriate

 5     for cross-examination, and the witness can see it and see whether --

 6     whether -- confirm that he didn't know anything about it.  That's our

 7     case.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I think, as a matter of fact, that's not the

 9     core of the objection by Mr. Jordash.  Mr. Jordash says you are not --

10     what you are doing is to rub in the evidence which you have presented.

11             Now, at the same time, Mr. Jordash, the question, to the extent

12     it seeks to explore whether the witness knows anything or whether he

13     still doesn't know anything when looking at these documents is, of

14     course, in itself not inappropriate.

15             But let's keep it short.

16             Having looked at this, Witness, Mr. Djukic, do you know anything

17     about this, or do you just have no knowledge about the links of Crni with

18     the Republic of Serbia's MUP?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, the question is

20     leading, because it is being suggested that I could know something about

21     it.  How would I be able to know it?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you know something about it, please tell us.

23     Don't comment on the questioning.  If the question is irregular, either

24     the Chamber or the Defence will respond to that.  Please, I do understand

25     you say, How could I know?  I understand that [overlapping speakers].

Page 18102

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that answer to be that you

 3     have no knowledge.

 4             Yes.

 5             Then let's move on Ms. Marcus.  By the way, you dated the

 6     autobiographic note as the 25th of February, where for me it is the 23rd.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, I see.  I apologise, Your Honour.

 9             Could I then just refer the Chamber to page 1 of P179 which is

10     the request for an operative check of Crni by Mr. Stanisic.

11             I'm done with these documents.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Djukic, before I continue, the document that you offered us

13     to look at, we would indeed like to look at that document when you have a

14     chance.  Perhaps maybe with the Chamber's leave, you could hand it to us

15     through the court usher.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djukic, are you willing to give the document,

17     you'd like one of the parties --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which document are you referring

19     to?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The one you said earlier you would like, I think the

21     Defence, to have that admitted into evidence.  If you give it to the

22     usher, the Prosecution will consider to use it.  And if you provide a

23     copy -- or the original.

24             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you.

Page 18103

 1        Q.   Now, there's been evidence in this case that in December of

 2     1992 - that, I believe, is just after your release, first time, from the

 3     hospital.  There was a report prepared by the command of the 2nd Posavina

 4     Brigade, including some of those individuals whom you identified earlier,

 5     including Beronja, Josic, and Maksimovic.  And this is a report --

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours it's P1418.

 7        Q.   -- about the -- about what they call a legal elite unit of

 8     Serbian commandos, involving Crni, Debeli, and Lugar.  And the report

 9     says that their presence in Samac had been legalised through official

10     government organs at both the Samac level and the level of the government

11     of Serbia.

12             Now, my question to you is:  In your position in the JNA at the

13     time -- in the VRS I should say.  At the time, had you not been injured,

14     would you have distanced yourself from Crni, Debeli, and Lugar, as your

15     colleagues did, in fact, would you have distanced yourself, or would you

16     have continued to assert that Crni, Debeli, Lugar were operating under

17     the unique authority of the JNA and then the VRS in the Bosanski Samac

18     area?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

20             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness was not

21     showed a document which has no less than ten pages.  But, rather, only a

22     small portion of it and is invited to comment on what he would have done

23     if he were -- if he had been in the shoes of some other individuals and

24     that -- we're talking about document 1418.  I invite my learned friend to

25     allow the witness to have a look at the document and then put the

Page 18104

 1     question to him.  Otherwise, it is not reasonable.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I will be very happy to give the

 3     witness a copy of this and to let him read it perhaps over the next

 4     break.  It is a long one.  I was trying to save time.  The main point of

 5     my question was that there has been evidence that his colleagues

 6     distanced themselves, the evidence is in P1418, and I'm asking him

 7     whether he would have distanced himself from the activities of Crni,

 8     Lugar, and Debeli.  I think that's a perfectly legitimate question, but

 9     of course I'm very happy to share the document with the witness and see

10     if he would like to add anything later.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I speed things up?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovan Erletic and Milan Miletic

15     have signed the document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait a second, please.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber considers that the question can be put

19     to the witness, that the witness can answer the question, but that the

20     witness should be given an opportunity to read the document in its

21     entirety during the next break.  And if that causes him to complete or

22     supplement his answer, he'll have an opportunity to do so, but only about

23     the question and not a general comment on the document.

24             So could you please -- the question was whether -- and Ms. Marcus

25     is relying on the evidence which is known to her and which she gave you a

Page 18105

 1     very small part, whether you would have distanced yourself from the

 2     activities of Crni, Debeli, and Lugar if you would have had the

 3     information that was put to you by Ms. Marcus.

 4             Could you please answer the question?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had the order whereby I was

 6     deployed as the security organ in the 2nd Bosnia Brigade where

 7     Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, through Salapura -- I had to leave Posavina

 8     because of Crni and Djordjevic and was appointed as officer in the corps.

 9     I distanced myself from them as soon as I could and as far as I could.

10     And I am familiar with this document.  I recognised it by its cover page.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, a copy will be given to you, if you

12     want to refresh your memory on that document.  We are not seeking your

13     comment on the document but just whether there's anything in that

14     document which would cause you to -- to amend your answer.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the Court Officer

17     please call up 65 ter 5603.1; e-court page 256 in English, and page 264

18     in the original handwritten version.  That is, ERN J000-4408.  The bottom

19     of the page, please, in both languages.

20        Q.   Mr. Djukic, what I'm showing now is a page from the diary of

21     Ratko Mladic.  This particular entry records a meeting which Mladic held

22     with the leadership of the Samac municipality on the 7th of December,

23     1992.  As can you see here, Mladic recorded what Stevan Todorovic said:

24             "Sent 18 men to Ilok for training and on 18 April 1992, they were

25     transferred in three" --

Page 18106

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Could I please have the next page in both languages.

 2        Q.   "... three helicopters together with 30 volunteers from

 3     Kragujevac; among them, two members of the Serbian MUP,

 4     Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, and Aleksandar Vukovic.  A special battalion

 5     was later formed under the command of Crni and it was involved in

 6     offensive operations."

 7             Mr. Djukic, I'd like to you clearly understand the Prosecution

 8     position.  Our position is that the accused Jovica Stanisic and

 9     Franko Simatovic, through the Serbian DB, trained and armed local Serbs

10     at the Ilok, Pajzos and Lezimir training camps.  Simatovic then

11     personally ordered this Red Beret unit to attack Bosanski Samac where

12     they murdered, forcibly transferred, deported, and otherwise persecuted

13     the municipality's non-Serb population in co-ordination with other Serb

14     forces, such as the JNA and the local TO.

15             Now, you are obviously a very respected official, both within the

16     organs you worked for and -- as well as among internationals who worked

17     with you in the region.  Can you accept the fact that this connection

18     between the Serbian DB and the events in Bosanski Samac were simply

19     hidden from you?

20        A.   I learned at some point in time of the crimes committed by Lugar

21     but not on the 7th of May, when he committed them in Crkvine.  And it is

22     quite understandable that as a lawyer I cannot condone this act.  No one

23     reasonable could do that.  But I couldn't know who it was who sent him or

24     who trained that unit.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'm finished with this document.

Page 18107

 1             Mr. Djukic, I'd like to move onto a different subject now.

 2             There has been evidence in this case that about four to six

 3     months before the war began, the war in Bosnia, that is, a group of

 4     instructors under Captain Dragan arrived in Brcko and formed a special

 5     unit which, according to the Brcko War Presidency, made significant

 6     contributions to combat operations in Brcko.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, that is from P1001, D202, and D83.

 8        Q.   This group of instructors included Rade and Bozo Bozic,

 9     Simo Radovanovic, and Sasa Vukojevic and operating in co-ordination with

10     them were Goran Petkovic, Zivojin Jovanovic, Ljubisa Savic, Mirko

11     Blagojevic, and Arkan's Men.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, D83.

13        Q.   Now, according to this evidence:  During the Brcko takeover,

14     Captain Dragan's instructors and Goran Petkovic and Zivojin Jovanovic,

15     aka Crnogorac, used a self-propelled gun and anti-aircraft machine-guns

16     to storm the Brcko SJB.  They held the municipal president and the Chief

17     of Staff of the 1st Posavina Brigade hostage, threatening to liquidate

18     them unless three of their member who had been arrested were released

19     from prison.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, P3017.

21        Q.   Were you aware of the information that I've just put to you?

22        A.   No.  I am aware from the priest Slavko Maksimovic, as a source,

23     who himself committed crimes, because he actually tried to convert

24     Muslims to the Orthodox faith.  And as I've already said about

25     Zika Jovanovic, Crnogorac, I've already said that I saw him, that he was

Page 18108

 1     present in Brcko, and I do not contest their acts and I do feel that

 2     justice should be meted out to them because there was a great crime

 3     committed there.

 4             Now --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

 6     portion of his answer.

 7             MS. MARCUS:

 8        Q.   Mr. Djukic, the interpreters didn't catch the last part of your

 9     answer.  Could you just repeat the very last part.

10        A.   There was no shelling or rocket attacks on the building of the

11     Secretariat of the Interior in Brcko.  It stands unchanged to this day

12     where it was 50 years ago.  And I omitted -- I also said there may have

13     been threats.

14        Q.   Now according to this evidence that I've just put to you, certain

15     formations in the Brcko area, including the Serbian Volunteer Guard,

16     Captain Dragan's Red Berets, and Zika Crnogorac were directed to those

17     areas by the Serbian DB.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, P3017.

19        Q.   Would you like to comment on that briefly, Mr. Djukic.

20        A.   Other than the fact that I do not know who sent them, and the

21     fact that based on my knowledge, which is extensive, I never saw any

22     effects as a result of any actions by Captain Dragan and his forces.  The

23     main role was played by Dragan Savic, Mauzer.

24        Q.   Were you aware of an individual named Zeljko Torbica in relation

25     to the Brcko corridor operation?

Page 18109

 1        A.   Never heard of him.

 2        Q.   Now Mr. Simatovic spoke of the strategic importance of the

 3     Posavina corridor himself at an award ceremony at the Kula camp after the

 4     war.  I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to play a very brief clip.  This is in

 5     evidence as P61.  The clip is from 15 minutes and 18 seconds to 16

 6     minutes and 41 seconds.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "[VOICEOVER]:  In May 1991 an air-helicopter squadron was formed

 9     which transported tonnes of special shipments, equipment, troops and

10     machinery from the improvised airfields of Medeno Polje, Petrovac,

11     Velika Popina, Srb, and Udbina and carried out numerous complex tasks

12     while war operations were ongoing.

13             "In September 1991 a part of the unit was transferred to Serbia,

14     where its reconstruction was conducted and high-quality professional

15     training organised.  These two units were involved in operations in

16     Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem.  Twenty six training camps

17     for special police units of Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian

18     Krajina were also formed in that period.  In the Republic of Serbian

19     Krajina in Golubic, Dinara, Obrovac, Gracac, Plitvice, Sumarice,

20     Petrova Gora, Licki Osik, Benkovac, Lezimir, Ilok, and Vukovar, and in

21     RSK in Banja Luka, Doboj, Samac, Brcko, Bijeljina, Trebinje, Visegrad,

22     Ozren, and Mrkonjic Grad.

23             "Units of Serbian joint operations in Eastern Slavonia, the

24     corridor at Brcko, in the Drina, Sarajevo, and Maglaj operations.  In

25     western Bosnia, the unit was the backbone of Fikret Abdic's army with

Page 18110

 1     around 1500 [as interpreted] soldiers who freed most of Cazin Krajina."

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djukic, did you have a -- Mr. Djukic, you have testified that

 4     you were not aware of the relationship between the Serbian DB and events

 5     in Bosanski Samac.  Isn't it a fact you were also not aware of the

 6     Serbian DB's involvement in the Brcko operations?

 7             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, I don't want to waste time with unnecessary

 8     objections, but this is not designed to elicit fact.  It's designed to

 9     continuously play evidence and show evidence to Your Honours and to the

10     witness and then say -- ask the witness questions which do not add

11     anything to what we've already seen.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, to establish that the witness doesn't

13     know something, then it's -- you don't have to show all the evidence,

14     although it may be to some extent be triggered to -- by the Stanisic

15     Defence now and then that we should be clear to the witness.  But I think

16     that, under the present circumstances, if you seek confirmation of the

17     lack of knowledge of the witness, it could be done in -- without showing

18     all of that evidence to him.  You could have summarised what was said in

19     two or three lines without showing the video.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Understood, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Could the witness just answer that question,

23     Your Honour, about --

24        Q.   My question was:  Isn't it a fact that you were also not aware of

25     the Serbian DB's involvement in the Brcko corridor operations?

Page 18111

 1        A.   It's correct.  I didn't know about that.

 2             But I have to say that this video-clip is very familiar, and it

 3     is my view that these officers here are just bragging before

 4     President Milosevic.  I saw this videotape --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked about your knowledge, not to comment

 6     on the video.  Although that, of course, Ms. Marcus, is a risk if you --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, but I was shown this

 8     video-clip.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you are not invited to comment on it but,

10     rather, to answer the question that was put to you.

11             Ms. Marcus, that's, of course, also one of the risks by showing

12     the evidence to the witness.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I have no problem with the witness's

14     comments.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it's -- they seem not to be very relevant

16     at this moment, and -- and they take time.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:

19        Q.   Now there's been evidence in this case --

20             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, P1075.

21        Q.   -- that from the beginning of the war in 1991, a number of

22     paramilitary units were engaged in the territory of the RSK and the RS.

23     They were and remained in direct contact with the republican state

24     security and the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia or they

25     were engaged under the guise of special units of the republican state

Page 18112

 1     security or the Ministry of Interior.

 2             Mr. Djukic, this refers, in particular -- this particular piece

 3     of evidence refers to Arkan's Men, Vaso Mijovic's men, and the Red Berets

 4     under the command of Zika Ivanovic, also known as Crnogorac, and it also

 5     refers to the paramilitary unit of Slobodan Medic, aka Boca.  Now you've

 6     given evidence about Zika Ivanovic and also about Slobodan Medic.  This

 7     evidence, as well as other evidence in the case, describes criminal

 8     activities carried out by Zika Crnogorac.  Now what you told us about

 9     Zika Crnogorac was that in your view he was involved in investigating and

10     combatting criminal activity.

11             Isn't it a fact that Zika Crnogorac was directly involved in just

12     the criminal activity that you described him cracking down on?

13        A.   I said that the detention of some people that he ordered were

14     unlawful.  And Zika Crnogorac currently lives in the United States of

15     America where he had sought asylum.

16             MR. FARR:  Could the Court Officer --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

18             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would just appreciate if in this

19     Exhibit P1075, if we could be shown this exhibit to see where it talks

20     about the crimes committed by Zika Crnogorac because I may have not seen

21     it.  Perhaps my learned friend can show it to us.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you a page indication for Mr. Petrovic?

23             MS. MARCUS:  Page 2 in English, page 2 in B/C/S, Your Honours.  I

24     think Mr. Petrovic is free to look at it and find those parts and use

25     them.

Page 18113

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  He'll find it.

 2             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am looking at it,

 3     but I can't see any facts about any crimes.  That's exactly what I'm

 4     looking at.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  It says:

 6             "Some of the more famous individuals will be removed and will

 7     work from behind the scenes:  Rajo Bozovic, Zika Crnogorac,

 8     Zvezdan Jovanovic, Vasilije Mijovic, and so on.  Our sources worn that in

 9     these units there are professional killers, terrorists, Legionnaires,

10     hardened criminals, and that they are ready to carry out the most callous

11     terrorist operations for money."

12             There are other parts about collecting debts, robbery, smuggling,

13     the liquidation of undesirables.  The whole report is basically about the

14     activities of Zika Crnogorac and other units that are described in the

15     report, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll check that.  Meanwhile, we -- what you just

17     read is not a direct indication of Zika Crnogorac committing crimes, but

18     from what you --

19             MS. MARCUS:  Not him alone, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  From what you read.  From what you read.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But I will check in P1075.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the Court Officer

24     please call up P1077.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be broadcast.

Page 18114

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Not to be broadcast, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Now what you see before you is a VJ security organ report dated

 3     18th November, 1992.  I realise that this was just about at the time when

 4     you were dealing with your injury.  Could I give you a minute to look

 5     through the document, and I will ask you just a couple of questions about

 6     Zika Crnogorac.

 7        A.   I cannot read it.  It is a bit smudged.  The ends are smudged.  I

 8     still can't read.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You still cannot, even if it would be further

10     enlarged, which is I think still possible.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can read it.

12             MS. MARCUS:

13        Q.   As you can see, Mr. Djukic, this document indicates that Arkan

14     and Zvezdan Jovanovic, Zika Crnogorac are "registered criminals."

15     Involved in criminal activity of "big proportions."  It says they are

16     "closely connected with the top leaders of the MUP of Serbia," including

17     Stanisic and Kostic and the government of the SBWS, Hadzic, Kojic, and

18     other.

19             Now, you testified that Zika Crnogorac came to the "secretariat,

20     asking do look at the files of more expensive luxury cars and some other

21     items which had been illegally taken from well-off Muslim houses."

22             Isn't it a fact that he was coming to take those items for

23     himself and his associates, rather than to investigate those who had

24     taken them?

25        A.   I have answer briefly.  Zika Crnogorac when he saw me said that

Page 18115

 1     everything that he had seized, including gold, he took personally to

 2     Pale, to Karadzic.

 3        Q.   I'm finished with this document.  Thank you.

 4             Now you have testified about your participation in the arrest of

 5     certain individuals in the area of Ilok, beginning in 1994.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  That's page 17971.

 7        Q.   Isn't it a fact that after the Red Berets left Ilok to

 8     participate in combat operations in the area of the Posavina corridor,

 9     only a few Red Berets remained in Ilok, headed by Ilija Vuckovic, aka

10     Rambo, to guard Pajzos.

11             A simple yes or no will do.  I understand the issues you raised

12     yesterday, and we will proceed to private session, if need be.  But a

13     simple yes or no at this point will suffice.

14        A.   It's not necessary.  I'm not afraid of criminals.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow, again we have a

18     complex question that implies two questions; the first part and the

19     second part.  There is an implication here that the witness knows that

20     Red Berets had left Ilok for the corridor.  I don't know what the

21     foundation for that question is.

22             First of all, is the witness aware of that, and then he should be

23     asked whether he knew what was going on; otherwise, we are at a risk of

24     receiving an answer to the second portion of the question, and then later

25     on when we look back at it, we might -- it might be implied that he also

Page 18116

 1     answered to the first part of the question as well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Petrovic, you should have refrained from

 3     commenting on the question in the way you did.

 4             But Ms. Marcus is invited to split up the question.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  What I'd like to just say in

 6     response is that I've put a number of series of facts to the witness, and

 7     I think the witness has demonstrated clearly his ability to pick out

 8     which parts he knows, which parts doesn't, and to comment on those

 9     different parts.  In this particular instance, I'm asking him some

10     preliminary questions, and then I will put some -- put a document to him.

11     But, Your Honour, I'm -- honestly, I think there is nothing wrong with

12     the facts that I put to him, asking him, Isn't it a fact.  He can say

13     whether he knows or doesn't know.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But then if you give three facts then there is

15     a risk that the witness may not have dealt with all three of them.  That

16     is what often happened.

17             So would you please put it -- I think the -- for example whether

18     Red Berets remained, whether they were headed by.  I mean, that could be

19     easily misunderstood.  Would you please split up the question and make it

20     separate items.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour, of course.

22        Q.   Mr. Djukic, isn't it a fact that after the Red Berets left Ilok

23     to participate in combat operations, a few remained behind in Ilok?

24        A.   That's not true, nor is it possible.  You didn't allow me

25     yesterday to explain.  In Ilok there was an UNPROFOR Russian battalion,

Page 18117

 1     the peacekeeping forces, that would expelled such -- driven away such

 2     units immediately, even had we not wanted to -- wanted them to.

 3        Q.   So you --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you please not tell us what was possible

 5     or was not possible, but would you please tell us about facts.

 6             Is it true or not true that, when the Red Berets left Ilok that a

 7     few remained behind?  I'm not talking about units, I'm not talking about

 8     who should have spotted them.  Is that true or not; or do you not know?

 9             Could you answer the question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the question?  I believe

11     the problem here is that I'm not allowed to explain anything.  I mean, in

12     this way, nothing will be accomplished.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you could leave that to the parties and to the

14     Chamber.

15             The question was whether, when the Red Berets left Ilok, whether

16     a few of them remained behind.  Whether that's true, whether that's not

17     true, or whether you do not know.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be precise, as of 15th March,

19     1993, there were no Red Berets present in Ilok.  Before that point, I

20     don't know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you don't know whether when they left

22     whether anyone remained behind because you say, I arrived at a time where

23     they had left, if they have ever been there already.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 18118

 1             May I have just one brief moment, sir.  Could the Court Officer

 2     please call up P3042 but not to broadcast it to the public.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djukic, this is a report by the JATD of the Serbian SDB from

 4     the 1st of February 1994.  If relates to the activities in Ilok in the

 5     period from 15 to 30th of January 1994.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  May I please have page two in English and page 16 in

 7     B/C/S.

 8        Q.   What it says on the page in front of us is that:

 9             "In order to paint a more detailed picture of the Red Berets'

10     actions in this area, we have to go back to the 1992 period; namely,

11     after the opening of the corridor.  The Republic of Serbia MUP unit that

12     was in this area was practically disbanded.  Only a small number

13     remained, headed by Ilija Vuckovic, aka Rambo, to guard the Pajzos and

14     Bela Kuca.  The group styled itself in the Red Berets image, which term

15     was subsequently used in an increasingly negative context.  In the course

16     of 1992, almost all its members had wilfully abandoned the unit or were

17     expelled from it due to various reasons.  A majority of them found

18     sanctuary in Ilok and continued doing dirty jobs, using the uniform and

19     insignia of the Red Berets."

20             A bit further down it says:

21             "Apart from two registered cases of unauthorised hunting,

22     objectively speaking, some members of our unit can be criticised for

23     improper and arrogant behaviour and inappropriate use of Republic of

24     Serbia MUP registered vehicles, but this is not subject to criminal or

25     misdemeanour prosecution."


Page 18119

 1             MS. MARCUS:  Can I please request private session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank


Page 18120

 1     you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             Mr. Djukic, often you say I'll stick to your rules, I'll not

 4     explain further.  If the explanation would change the core of your

 5     answer, then, of course, you're supposed to do that because you are

 6     supposed to give the whole truth.

 7             Now, we are not inviting you to comment on things you are not

 8     asked, but if the answer by a yes or a no would be misleading, then, of

 9     course, you're invited to add as much as to create the right picture.

10     Not a full understanding of situation.  I'll just give you one example.

11             I asked you about -- where you said that Zika had investigated

12     the stolen vehicles, or that he -- he came and wanted to see the files.

13     Then I asked you what was the purpose?  Was that to investigate?  And

14     then you said -- you said that he wanted to investigate that.  I asked

15     what it then resulted in.  You said certain investigations were

16     conducted.  Cases were processed so that those files or cases would

17     appear before the International Tribunal.  Well, then I asked you so the

18     purpose was to investigate and to prosecute those who had stolen those

19     vehicles.  And you confirmed that that was your answer.

20             Now, today you told us that he took the cars and brought them to

21     Karadzic, which is, of course, not the usual way of investigating and

22     prosecuting because in that context there's no place for taking the

23     seized vehicles to the -- to the president of -- of a republic.

24             So, therefore, at that moment, where you felt free to tell us

25     about an appointment you had, et cetera, et cetera.  You wanted to add

Page 18121

 1     quite a lot of things there and I didn't interrupt you.  But there you

 2     should have said, The purpose was to investigate; however, in reality, he

 3     took the seized cars and brought them to Pale.

 4             That is what I would have expected you to do because your answer:

 5     Investigation, prosecution, that, of course, is only half of the picture,

 6     because, in that picture, it doesn't fit that you take the cars and bring

 7     them to Pale.

 8             So, therefore, that was something we would have expected you to

 9     add, not whether you had an appointment next week with someone else to

10     talk about these kind of things.

11             May that be clear that as long as what you'd like to add is there

12     to give the right picture where your answer did not give a right picture,

13     then you're not only allowed but even under an obligation to do that.

14             You may proceed, Ms. Marcus.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Djukic, Jovan Kujundzic was appointed command in Pajzos on

17     the 11th of June, 1992.  Were you aware of that?

18        A.   When it comes to 1992 and Ilok, please do not put questions to

19     me.  It is futile because it's already well-known that I arrived in the

20     area on 15th of March, 1993.

21        Q.   Mr. Djukic, were you aware that there were many individuals who

22     were affiliated with the Serbian MUP but also held ID cards of the

23     Krajina MUP?

24        A.   I did not come across an official who would have held an ID of

25     both the RSK MUP and the Serbian MUP.  Admittedly,

Page 18122

 1     Mladic [as interpreted] would give away lightly to drivers or whomever

 2     the official IDs and almost everyone was in possession of one such ID

 3     card.

 4             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up P489.  In the

 5     meantime, can I just refer the Chamber to P3017 for the prior question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Could I -- at the same time, could I seek clarification of your

 8     last answer.  You said:

 9             "Admittedly, Mladic would give away lightly to drivers or

10     whomever the official IDs ..."

11             Official IDs of what?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry that you

13     misunderstood.  That it had to with Martic.  Martic.  Mladic was an

14     honest officer until 1992, who would not have given anything lightly to

15     anyone.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Martic.

17             Were you then referring to giving Krajina MUP IDs given by Martic

18     to drivers and the other persons you mentioned?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He would give some of those

20     as a souvenir, even.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   What you see in front of you is a list of Serbian MUP personnel

24     who have ID cards of the Krajina MUP.  At the top of the list you see

25     Zika Crnogorac.  And at number 42 you see Jovan Kujundzic whom I

Page 18123

 1     mentioned earlier.

 2             Now our position is that the men who remained in Ilok Pajzos,

 3     including Jovan Kujundzic and Ilija Vuckovic, were in fact part of the

 4     Serbian DB.  The fact that they signed documents on JPN Krajina

 5     letterhead, in our view, does not change the fact that they were in fact

 6     JPN Serbia members.

 7             Would you like to comment on that?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, my

10     learned friend mischaracterised the evidence.  She said what you see here

11     is a list of the Serbian MUP personnel.  Could my learned friend show

12     where it says in the document that this is a list of the Serbian MUP

13     personnel?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that Ms. Marcus put the OTP interpretation

15     of this list, a list apparently containing what she considers to be

16     members of the MUP.

17             Now, apart from summarising the document, it has been emphasised

18     again and again that the Prosecution should put to the witness what their

19     case is in this respect.  Perhaps, Ms. Marcus, it would have been better

20     to say that what you see in front of you is a list containing names of

21     Serbian MUP personnel.

22             So it's not said by Ms. Marcus, at least I take it that you did

23     not intend to say, that all of these are MUP of Serbia members.

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, at this moment I was just referring to

25     the two that I'm mentioning and I'm going to show additional evidence for

Page 18124

 1     that, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you were invited to comment on the two

 3     persons of which the Prosecution says they were MUP of the Republic of

 4     Serbia employees appearing on this list, apparently having been given MUP

 5     of the Krajina -- if you not mind that I finish my question.  Appearing

 6     on this list of people having IDs of the -- of the RSK MUP.

 7             Please comment.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Firstly, I don't see the date.

 9             Secondly, this is very important.  The Serbian MUP contained

10     public and state security.  Security service and state security -- that's

11     to say, public security and state security would be held accountable

12     separately.  So we ought to know, first, under which branch these people

13     fell.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue raised by Ms. Marcus is what is the

15     explanation for Serbian MUP employees, irrespective of what branch, to be

16     issued with Krajina MUP IDs.  That's the issue.  It's Serbia against

17     Krajina; rather than state security, public security.

18             Any further comment on that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The Krajina MUP would easily

20     give ID cards; whereas, the Serbian MUP never issued a colleague of mine

21     with an official ID card.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Could the Court Officer please call up P3038 and not

24     broadcast it to the public.  P3038.  And I'd like page 15 in English and

25     page 13 in B/C/S, please.

Page 18125

 1        Q.   Mr. Djukic, this is the DB, Serbian DB personnel file for Ilija

 2     Vuckovic.  As you can see on this document, Ilija Vuckovic was a member

 3     of the reserve forces of the Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Interior,

 4     from the 5th of May, 1991, to the 1st of November, 1992.

 5             Now, our position is that both Ilija Vuckovic and Jovan Kujundzic

 6     were carrying out their activities in Pajzos as official members of the

 7     JPN of the Serbian MUP in spite of the fact that they may also have been

 8     signing documents on JPN Krajina MUP letterhead.

 9             Would you like to comment on that?

10        A.   Yes.  The document is valid.  However, it is a bit odd.  When I

11     brought him in and the court remanded him in custody in Beli Manastir, it

12     is a bit odd that Serbia failed to protect its member, if he, indeed, was

13     their member.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'm done with that document.

15             Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about the man you

16     identified as your superior, Ilija Kojic.  At page 18008 you said this

17     about Ilija Kojic:

18             "His role was totally clear.  Kojic was an official, a public

19     official.  He was a representative of the ministry before other competent

20     organs.  He would approve all our contacts with the public media.  He was

21     in charge of material and logistical security and in charge of other

22     duties, such as contacts with various assemblies, with the commands, and

23     similar."

24             Can you tell us, first, what you meant by material and logistical

25     security?  As briefly as possible, please, sir.

Page 18126

 1        A.   What I meant to say was that Ilija Kojic was in terms of

 2     logistics very much capable of providing us with vehicles, food, and the

 3     rest.  Unfortunately, we never received these items from the MUP of

 4     Serbia.

 5        Q.   Now what did you mean when you said that Kojic was "in charge of

 6     other duties, such as contacts with various assemblies, with the

 7     commands, and similar"?

 8        A.   This applies to presidents of assemblies, because quite a few

 9     assemblies were put together.  For instance, in Tenja and Mirkovci there

10     was a great deal of arrogance exhibited on their part, and he negotiated

11     with them as well as with Loncar, because I told him that I was not in

12     contact with the Army of Krajina.  Now when I saw these intercept, I felt

13     really in a way disappointed as an officer and a human being yesterday

14     here.

15        Q.   Sorry, can you clarify your last comment.  You said, "When I saw

16     these intercepts I felt in a way disappointed as an officer and a human

17     being."  Briefly, what -- what are you referring to?

18        A.   Well, if they are accurate, then General Loncar lied to me, and

19     he should take his rightful place alongside the war crimes prosecutor.

20     Loncar is, who, as you will know, is very efficient and expeditious in

21     processing war crimes.

22        Q.   At page 18009, you said of Mr. Kojic:

23             "He was, for all practical purposes, minister in the absence of

24     Minister Martic."

25             Is it fair to say that Mr. Kojic was the most powerful official

Page 18127

 1     in the Ministry of Interior in the SBWS when Martic was not present?

 2        A.   As far as the district of Eastern Slavonia Baranja and Western

 3     Srem is concerned, since he was the head of the TO for that district, he

 4     was seriously wounded, barely escaped with his life, and he was highly

 5     esteemed by the population there.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We know that he was wounded and esteemed.  But the

 7     question was what power he had.  And I take it that Ms. Marcus was not

 8     focussing on the time when he was seriously wounded.

 9             Was he, when he was in function, the second powerful person,

10     as -- when Mr. Martic wasn't there?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  What I knew of him at the

12     time, I would not have accepted him as a superior of mine, someone who

13     has secondary education.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But was he the second as far as power is

15     concerned?  Whether you like his education or not, it was not the

16     question.  The question was whether he was the second, after Martic, if

17     it comes to power.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was number two.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MS. MARCUS:

21        Q.   And Martic was not present most of the time in SBWS; correct?

22        A.   Martic would come to Eastern Slavonia periodically, because, and

23     quite understandably so, he had to cover Krajina, which wasn't large in

24     itself, but between Borovo and Knin there's 650 kilometres, and it was

25     difficult to cover it all.

Page 18128

 1        Q.   At page 18049, Mr. Jordash asked the following question:

 2             "In late 1994, early 1995, when these operations were ongoing,

 3     did Martic ever charge his view about the Serbian DB?  Did he suddenly

 4     start to express trust in them, or was he always someone to regarded the

 5     likes of Kojic and Kostic a problem?"

 6             Your answer was:

 7             "I really cannot understand that.  They were close friends.  They

 8     spoke on a number of occasions.  For instance, when I went to Ilok,

 9     sometimes I would even sit at a different table.  They would sit at

10     another table, which I didn't mind at all.  From what I could observe

11     myself, they had a very good relationship mutually, and he even continued

12     this relation with Kojic when Dalmacija fell.  Kojic offered all kinds of

13     assistance to him."

14             Then you were asked:

15             "To whom, sorry?"

16             And your answer was:

17             "To Martic."

18             Can you tell us what kind of assistance Kojic offered to Martic,

19     to your knowledge?  Briefly, please, sir.

20        A.   He offered that he should resettle with his family and that they

21     would ensure the basic provisions for his family and that if he needed a

22     job, he was ready to provide him with one.

23        Q.   Is it correct that Ilija Kojic was your superior from the time

24     you arrived in SBWS in March 1993 through to the end of the war?

25        A.   Yes.  Through to the end of the war, with one remark:

Page 18129

 1     Minister Martic would consult with me frequently, one on one.  He even

 2     asked me to advise him on whether he should run for the president.  He

 3     also asked me to use the personal form of address with him, to give him

 4     the Tu, as it were, which I always refused.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, unless I've lost track of time, if this

 6     is the time for the break then this could be a good stopping point.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is the time for the break.

 8             Before we take that break, however, Mr. Jordash, I announced that

 9     we would consider either a late afternoon session, but we more or less

10     agreed that it should be possible to conclude the evidence in of this

11     witness in a 105 minutes' session.  Of course, that goes beyond what the

12     doctors have advised.  So I'd like to hear from you whether Mr. Stanisic

13     wants, then, to be absent, or whether he insists not to continue, which,

14     of course, is -- he is entitled to -- to be present at his trial.

15             So if that would cause any problem, then I'd like to know.  By

16     the way, a later afternoon session would also be in -- not consistent

17     with the advice of the doctors, and, therefore if there's any problem

18     there I'd like to know so that we can adjust plans, if need be, to the

19     position of the Stanisic Defence.

20             MR. JORDASH:  Your Honour, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we hear from you immediately after the

22     break.

23             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Even if it changes the dramatically plans, I

25     would even like to be informed during the break so that we can take

Page 18130

 1     action.

 2             MR. JORDASH:  Certainly.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that Mr. Stanisic apparently is ...

 4             MR. JORDASH:  We can continue, Your Honours, and Mr. Stanisic

 5     would like to return to the UNDU, if he can, and he waives his right to

 6     be present during the final parts of the trial.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not only the final 30 minutes but already now?  Is

 8     that ...

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. JORDASH:  Could I inform Your Honour, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, there's document I promised to show the

14     witness if -- during the break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If it could be given to the witness by the

16     usher.

17             Something for you to read, Mr. Djukic, during the break.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Homework again.

19             MR. JORDASH:  We could do an extended session with Mr. Stanisic

20     present.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll resume at 12.30 sharp.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, until quarter to 2.00, the time is

25     yours.

Page 18131

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djukic at page 18027, you were asked whether you were aware

 4     of any relationship between Ilija Kojic and the DB of Serbia.  And you

 5     said:

 6             "I don't, nor was I told, nor do you ask such things of your

 7     colleagues?"

 8             I'd like to look at that in a little more detail.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Can we please have P325 on the screen but not

10     broadcast it to the public.  P325.  And could I have, please, page 7 of

11     the English and page 11 in B/C/S.

12        Q.   Sir, if you take a look at this document, you'll see that it has

13     the heading of the state security sector of the Republic of Serbia and

14     that it is dated 19th of March, 1993.

15             So it's the time of your arrival in the SBWS.

16             And now I'll read verbatim the portion following the word

17     "decree."  It says:

18             "Ilija Kojic, employed at the Ministry of Interior, the

19     secretariat in Belgrade:

20              "Is deployed starting from 1 April 1993 to the working place

21     from Article 11, item 7, of the rule-book on systemisation of workplaces

22     of the sector of state security in the Ministry of Interior of the

23     Republic of Serbia.

24             "The title of the employee will be independent clerk."

25             And if we go to the bottom of the page in B/C/S and the middle of

Page 18132

 1     the next page in English, we can see that the document is signed and

 2     stamped by Jovica Stanisic as chief.

 3             Sir, were you really not aware that Ilija Kojic was an employee

 4     of the State Security Department of Serbia at the time that he was your

 5     boss?

 6        A.   When I talked about contacts, I meant contacts in the operative

 7     sense.  It doesn't mean private contacts.  Now if you're asking me

 8     whether I knew that he was on the payroll of Serbia, I wouldn't know.

 9     According to this decision, Ilija Kojic was a secret agent of the Serbian

10     MUP in Krajina.

11        Q.   I'm sorry just in terms of your last answer, part of it you said,

12     "Now if you're asking me" -- this is what the transcript says.  I just

13     want to correct the transcript or -- verify that it was correct.

14             You said:

15             "Now if you're asking me whether I was on the payroll of Serbia,

16     I wouldn't know."

17             Did you mean to say, "Now if you're asking me whether he was on

18     the payroll of Serbia..."?  Is that what you meant to say?

19        A.   No.  Had I known - and we worked together, we risked our lives

20     together - had I known that he was on the Serbian payroll, whereas I was

21     on this miserable pay in Krajina, I wouldn't have worked with him

22     together.  Now according to this decision, which is not usual, it would

23     appear that he infiltrated our ranks which was not uncommon in

24     intelligence circles, and he most certainly would not have told us about

25     it or anybody else because that would have caused a lot of discontent

Page 18133

 1     among us.  So, in other words, I think this was really not very fair of

 2     him.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I'm finished with that document.

 4             Now you also testified about Rade Kostic.  You mentioned that he

 5     came with Martic to visit you when the shrapnel was removed to offer you

 6     a position.  And then you also said at page 18009 to 18010:

 7             "We dealt with serious matters and Kostic was this charge of the

 8     entire territory; whereas, Kojic was only in charge of Eastern Slavonia,

 9     Baranja, and Western Srem."

10             The question then was:

11             "What do you mean Kostic was in charge of the entire territory?

12     Which territory are you including within that?"

13             And your answer was:

14             "The Republic of Serbian Krajina."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

16             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

17     first portion of the question was misquoted.  It says that Martic and

18     Kostic offered the witness something, and I don't think that's what the

19     witness said.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- you mean the quoted part which is ...

21             MR. PETROVIC:  Your Honour, this part when it reads:  "You

22     mentioned that he came with Martic to visit you when the shrapnel was

23     removed to offer you a position."

24             I believe that that part of the transcript was not put correctly

25     to the witness here.

Page 18134

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

 2             Now, it seems to be -- by the way, it seems to be a marginal

 3     aspect of and doesn't affect the question in any way.  But, nevertheless,

 4     I agree with you, Mr. Petrovic, that quotes -- reference to evidence

 5     should be precise.

 6             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.  Your Honour, yes.  At page 1769 and 70 the

 7     witness spoke about a visit he received from Martic and Kostic, and he

 8     does say it's true that Martic was making the offer to him.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So that has now been corrected.

12             Then perhaps you repeat your question so that the witness can

13     answer it.

14             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, should I repeat the quote that I put to

15     him from -- I hadn't asked the question yet.  I was putting a quote.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then -- yes.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There is no need to repeat the

18     quote.  The problem was just in the introductory part.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It depends on whether the witness still remembers.

20     That's the issue, and not whether you oppose, Mr. Petrovic.

21             Could you please resume, Ms. Marcus, in the way you deem fit.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Djukic, do you remember the question I put to you?  I quoted

24     to your statement that Kostic was in charge of the entire territory of

25     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Page 18135

 1             Now my question to you is:  Did you ever have any indication that

 2     Kostic, who was, as you say, in charge of the entire territory of the

 3     RSK, was actually working for the DB of Serbia?

 4        A.   Unfortunately, already at the hospital, by just looking at him,

 5     at his gestures and the faces he was making, I knew that he was against

 6     my going there.  He was very arrogant to me.  He never had a coffee with

 7     me.  He would just come in and we would exchange greetings and then he

 8     would say -- he always had this yellow bag with him, he would always rush

 9     off somewhere.  He would say he was in a hurry, and I always warned him

10     that he shouldn't really hurry so much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not answer the question, Mr. Djukic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the question?  Perhaps

13     I -- it slipped my mind.  Sorry.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether -- did you have any -- did you ever have any

15     indication that Kostic was actually working for the DB of Serbia?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I thought that it was

17     implicit from what I said that we were not very close, and I never talked

18     to him about that, nor did I have any indications other than the fact

19     that his wife worked somewhere in Belgrade.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.  Can we please have P406.  And could I

23     ask, please, for page 3 in B/C/S and page 5 in English.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown to the public.

25             MS. MARCUS:

Page 18136

 1        Q.   Sir, if we look at the heading on this document, we can see it is

 2     dated --

 3             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry.  If -- just -- perhaps I'm being overly

 4     anticipatory, but if what my learned friend is going to do is again just

 5     show -- the witness has said he doesn't know.  Now my learned friend, it

 6     looks as though she's going to show him what is a state security record,

 7     and then with a raised eyebrow say, Are you sure you didn't know.  It's

 8     just another attempt to bring the evidence before Your Honours.  If my

 9     learned friend wants to read that evidence, Your Honours, I won't object

10     to that, but we should try to save time, respectfully.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, you see Mr. Jordash is offering his

12     assistance.

13             Why not say to the witness, Would your answer be the same even if

14     I would show you documentary evidence which links him to the Serbian DB.

15     And then the witness can answer the question and we move on.

16             I mean, we don't have to convince this witness that there was a

17     link, isn't it?

18             MS. MARCUS:  I'm happy to leave it there, Your Honour.  Thank

19     you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash, this is what, I take it, repeat the

21     question, saying there's even documentary evidence presented.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Yes.  And we've already indicated we agree that

23     this record is authentic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

25             Ms. Marcus.  And perhaps because this is, of course, a

Page 18137

 1     repetition.  It's not the first time that Mr. Jordash is on his feet.  I

 2     think I earlier gave you already guidance that it could be dealt with in

 3     a more simple way.  So would you please keep that in mind if you have any

 4     future documents to show to the witness after he has testified that he

 5     doesn't know anything about A, B, or C.  Rather leave it to that or one

 6     additional question.  If I would show you documentary evidence on A,

 7     would you still ... and then move on.  Yes?

 8             MS. MARCUS:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Sir, are you aware that after the war the DB of Serbia maintained

10     a training camp or base for the JSO Kula and that that training centre

11     was named for Rade Kostic?

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, P61.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew of that.  And even as

14     of chief of service, because of the name I gave them as a gift - and I

15     was authorised to do that - a vehicle because I felt -- I thought that

16     these were honourable men.  I made a mistake.  I'm sorry, I was misled.

17        Q.   I'm sorry, could you clarify what you said.  You said you gave

18     them a gift.  You said, "I them as a gift, I was authorised to do that, a

19     vehicle."  Can you tell us who you gave that vehicle to and who

20     authorised you to give it?

21        A.   I was the authorised person.  I was the chief of service.  After

22     Kojic left on the 27th of April 1996, all the burdens because of our poor

23     equipment, the poor equipment of the public security, was my burden, and

24     I had to go around begging for money for salaries to pay out.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, why not answer the question:  To

Page 18138

 1     whom was that vehicle given?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the training centre in Kula,

 3     Rade Kostic.  Because I thought that this was an elite honourable unit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

 5             MS. MARCUS:

 6        Q.   Mr. Djukic, then isn't it possible that others could have had a

 7     relationship with the Serbian DB that you also didn't know about, such as

 8     Martic and such as Slobodan Medic, Boca?

 9        A.   Boca - and I've already explained this - and Milanovic had ties

10     with the public security of Serbia.  That's not in dispute.  But very few

11     services would want to have Martic as their collaborator.

12        Q.   Could I just ask my question again.  Isn't it possible that

13     others could also have had a relationship with the Serbian DB that you

14     may not have known about.  Those others, including Martic, including

15     Boca, including Milanovic.

16        A.   And I've said that Milanovic and Boca had ties with Badza -

17     Radovan Stojicic, in other words - and with Rodja, the chief of the

18     public security department, not the state security.  I knew about that.

19     That was Vlastimir Djordjevic, also known as Rodja.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.  Just one more time I will ask you the

21     same question.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, the problem in the question is that the

23     witness says that he had some awareness of links of two of the persons

24     you mentioned.  So we should then focus the question on the remainder.

25             Now, you told us that Milanovic and Boca you knew had ties with

Page 18139

 1     Badza.  Now, the question has not been answered in relation to Martic.

 2     You said I -- most services, few services would want to have him as their

 3     collaborator.  Is it --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Is it your testimony that you

 6     have no knowledge of Martic having such links to the Serbian DB and which

 7     you would not know of and that you consider that it is unlikely that he

 8     had on the basis of your assessment of Mr. Martic and how useful such a

 9     person would be for a service?  Is that we will understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's well understood.  In

11     addition --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'd like to then deal with the remainder

13     of the question.  That is, is it possible that other persons may have had

14     links with the Serbian DB but that you didn't know about that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a collaborator is a person

16     who in a organised manner and secretly and permanently provides

17     information to some service.  Now, how would I know when it's secret?

18     Had they offered it to me, I would have accepted it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say it is possible that these things

20     would have been the case without me knowing it.

21             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Sir, you testified that the relation between Kojic and Martic was

24     generally good, and we agree with that.  But there was a point at which

25     tension developed briefly in that relationship and that was around the

Page 18140

 1     time that Ilija Prijic was kidnapped; is that correct?  Yes or no,

 2     please.

 3        A.   That's quite correct.  The abduction scenario, or, rather, his

 4     removal from the public security, and that's a legitimate act, I was in

 5     favour of him being removed from our area.

 6        Q.   Around the end of August 1994, RSK minister of the interior

 7     Ilija Prijic publicly stated at a press conference that he been kidnapped

 8     by four paramilitary soldiers in Borovo Selo, put into a car, and

 9     released several hours later in a forest near Bijeljina.  He publicly

10     accused Radislav Kostic of being behind the kidnapping and also publicly

11     said that Radislav Kostic worked for the Serbian state security.  That's

12     all correct, isn't it?

13        A.   No.  I selected, I hand-picked the police members who would

14     arrest him.  He was not injured.  He was taken to a wood near Bijeljina.

15     And on his person, he had a huge amount of foreign currency, of money.

16     These police officers never took a penny from that.  He is now living in

17     Belgrade, and he has a police academy or something.  We were in fact very

18     gentle with him in view of what he would have deserved, in fact.  But

19     first we asked Martic to allow us to remove him from that position.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, why not answer the question?

21             The question was whether, at the end of August 1994, that the RSK

22     minister of the interior publicly stated that he had been kidnapped by

23     four paramilitary soldiers in Borovo Selo.

24             Did he say so at a press conference?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never read anything about that.

Page 18141

 1     I never found that anywhere to read.  I read an article that he wrote --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So -- and did he say in that article that he was

 3     kidnapped by four paramilitary soldiers?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I had -- hadn't read

 5     anything.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, that I then misunderstood.  Are you aware of any

 7     public accusation by him that Rade Kostic was behind the kidnapping?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of it, and I went to the

 9     editorial office of "Vjesnik" on Wednesday in order to -- to offer a

10     denial of that.  I don't know why it was never published, but it wasn't.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, was it also then publicly said that

12     Radovan Kostic worked for the Serbian state security?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's what he also said at a

14     meeting.  It was a very difficult meeting.  I tried to appease everyone

15     around --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  okay.  That answers the questions.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:

19        Q.   When you say "he also said that at a meeting," who said -- who

20     said what at a meeting?  Just so that I understand.

21        A.   Martic presided over the meeting, and I -- I reported and we

22     appealed that Minister -- which appealed to him that Minister Prijic be

23     removed because the service -- the officers who were in that service were

24     very dissatisfied with his work, and he left Croatia on the 1st of

25     January, 1993.  But Martic did not accept that.

Page 18142

 1             After this, his security detail cocked their weapons, and then I

 2     assessed, and this -- we were in office number 10 there, we assessed, I

 3     said that he should be removed from there, and -- because there was a

 4     possibility that someone would get shot and killed.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, could we take the witness back to one of

 6     his previous answers.

 7             So you say Mr. Martic said that Mr. Kostic was -- at least there

 8     was a hint that he was working for the Serbian DB.  Is that correctly

 9     understood?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No you misunderstood me.

11     Mr. Prijic.  That was what the question was.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But he hinted with Mr. Kostic being -- being linked

13     to the RDB.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's possible.  And I can just

15     add that the late Kostic was born in Serbia, so no wonder if he worked

16     for his country.  I was paid to work for a foreign country and I refused.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But whether it's true or not is another matter.

18     What I would like you to -- I asked you, and I'll go to it again, I asked

19     you:

20             "Now was it also then publicly said that Radovan Kostic worked

21     for the Serbian state security?"

22             And you said:

23             "Yes, that's what he also said at a meeting."

24             When I then asked you about Mr. Martic saying so, you said, "No,

25     it was not Mr. Martic.  It was Mr. Prijic."  Is that correctly

Page 18143

 1     understood?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correctly understood.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, earlier you were asked, did you have ever --

 4     did you have any indication that Kostic was actually working for the DB

 5     of Serbia, and your answer was a bit unclear.  And then I asked you again

 6     to answer the question.  I said:

 7             "Did you ever have any indication that Kostic was actually

 8     working for the DB of Serbia?"

 9             You said:

10             "I apologise.  I thought it was implicit from what I said that we

11     were not very close and I never talked to him about it, nor did I have

12     any indications other than the fact that his wife worked somewhere in

13     Belgrade."

14             What you say the only thing that could hint at Kostic being

15     working for the DB would be the fact that his wife was working in

16     Belgrade, which is not a very strong indication, to say the least.

17             And now you tell us -- half an hour later, you tell us that it

18     was publicly said by Prijic that Kostic was working for the DB.  Isn't

19     that an indication of him working for the DB, if someone says so in

20     public?

21             Yes, you may --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't find Prijic's words

23     relevant.  He was an individual we wanted to remove from the position of

24     minister.  I told you that it nearly came to a blows and armed conflict.

25     I told you that there was no information like that going around the

Page 18144

 1     service.  If he was an agent or a collaborator, that was something else.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  An indication isn't yet a fact.  If you consider the

 3     mere fact that his wife was working in Belgrade worth mentioning, then

 4     certainly a public statement, whether or not you believed it or not,

 5     whether you considered it a reliable indication or not is a different

 6     matter, should have been part of your answer and you should not have kept

 7     it away from us and then later to say, I considered it not to be

 8     relevant, or it was an indication.  Although, as I understand, you didn't

 9     believe it at the time, although it would not surprise you.  And whether

10     it's true or not, is another matter.

11             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Sir, I would now like to ask you briefly about the incident in

14     October of 1994 when Martic was stopped at the border crossing between

15     Serbia and the RSK.

16             At page 18031, you were asked about this incident.  The question

17     was:

18             "Do you know anything about Martic's complaint at this time

19     complaining that Kojic and Kostic were effectively acting against his

20     interests, including having their men stop him it the Tovarnik crossing?"

21             Your answer was:

22             "These weren't Kojic's or Kostic's men.  This was the check-point

23     unit, and there was an oversight on their part.  They did not recognise

24     the minister right away."

25             Now, first of all, in October 1994, Milan Martic was not

Page 18145

 1     minister.  He was the president of the RSK; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, it is true that he was president.  It is also true that

 3     members of the police were responsible for this oversight.  But his

 4     security detail made an error, too, because they should have announced

 5     his passage through.  There's always a patrol going ahead of them,

 6     reporting which patrol point they were at at any given time, which was

 7     not the case in this particular instance.

 8        Q.   Milan Martic was one of the most famous people in the RSK, since

 9     1990 or 1991, by the time of this event.  Would you agree?  Yes or no,

10     please.

11        A.   Yes, I agree with you.  I told you that as an individual who held

12     the most responsibility for the police saw this to be a gross oversight

13     and irresponsible conduct on the part of the policemen who failed to

14     recognise their president, and they were no longer allowed to perform

15     these tasks.  They were transferred to tasks of a lower responsibility

16     and were replaced by individuals who were up to that task and who knew at

17     least one foreign language.

18        Q.   Could I please have P987 on the screen.

19             This is one of the documents that was shown to you by the

20     Defence.

21             Could I please have the middle of page 2 in English, and the

22     bottom half of page 1 in B/C/S.

23             Can I call your attention to the portion which says -- by the

24     way, to remind you this is a letter from Milan Martic to

25     Slobodan Milosevic regarding this incident at the border.

Page 18146

 1             "At the crossing, I was met by Colonel Stojan Spanovic, corps

 2     Chief of Staff, who was in a military... car.  He got into my car and

 3     immediately informed me that the crossing on the RSK side was under the

 4     control of Ilija Kojic's men.  Our column consisted of a VRSK Ford with a

 5     rotating light, an Audi in which I was, and a Mitsubishi Pajero with my

 6     escort.  When we arrived at the crossing, we were flagged down.  As we

 7     pulled up a dozen or so men wearing military camouflage uniforms came up

 8     to our cars with their rifles points, fingers on the triggers.  They were

 9     weapons were pointed both at me personally and at all my men."

10             Could we now please have the middle of page 3 in English and the

11     top of page two in B/C/S.  I'll read the portion beginning with the words

12     "At the meeting..."

13             "At the meeting in the command of the 11th Corps in Vukovar, I

14     was given the following information.  The men who organised the incident

15     were members of the paramilitary and parapolice forces stationed in

16     Erdut.  They are under the direct control of Rade Kostic of the State

17     Security Department of the MUP of Serbia.  These individuals also took

18     part in the kidnapping of Ilija Prijic, minister of the interior of the

19     RSK.

20             "The said Rade Kostic had entered the territory of the RSK an

21     hour before I did, i.e., at about 0900 hours, in an official BMW with

22     registration plates of the MUP of Serbia.

23             "The command of the 11th VRSK Corps has no authority whatsoever

24     over the camp in Erdut or any other in Eastern Slavonia or Baranja."

25             Sir, there wasn't a simple mixup, was it?  This was, in fact, a

Page 18147

 1     way of reminding Martic who held the real power in the SBWS, the same way

 2     that Ilija Prijic had been reminded when he tried to suspend Kojic and

 3     Kostic; right?

 4        A.   I did not have the authority to assess the decisions taken by

 5     Kojic or Kostic.  I was given a detailed report on this by Dragan Djukic

 6     who was the secretary of the Vukovar SUP and who was referred in

 7     connection with the incident when Arkan stormed into the SUP.  I accepted

 8     it.  It is possible that I didn't know of it, that I wasn't informed of

 9     it, but believe me when I tell that you I speak the truth.  I do allow

10     for the possibility that this incident did, indeed, happen.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm done with that document.  Could I now please have

12     P1605 on the screen.

13             Sir, this is the text of an intercepted conversation between

14     Martic and someone identified as the president, who we say is Slobodan

15     Milosevic.  The conversation is from 4 October 1994, three days before

16     the letter we were just looking at.

17             At the beginning of the conversation, Martic introduces himself

18     and asks to speak to the president.

19             If we could have the bottom of the page in English, please.  I

20     will now read a portion, beginning with the words, "Mr. President hello?"

21             As I read, the letter M represents things said by Martic, while

22     the letter X represents things said by the president,

23     President Milosevic.

24             "M: Mr. President, hello.

25             "X: Hello.

Page 18148

 1             "M: I am calling from Vukovar.  You know what?  I have gone

 2     through such an embarrassment.  This is not to be tolerated.

 3             "X: Pardon me?

 4             "M: The very same gang that was carrying out arrests before, from

 5     Erdut, waited for me with rifles pointed at me and carried out a search

 6     vehicle by vehicle.

 7             "X: Did what?

 8             "M: They waited for me, around 15 of them.  With rifles pointed

 9     at me, and ... from vehicle to vehicle, did they think perhaps that ...

10     but such a behaviour, please, either you will order Jovica to withdraw

11     this gang or I will deal with it my way.  Believe me, I will run them

12     over with tanks, whatever the outcome.  I am kindly asking you.  This has

13     gone beyond limits.  Kostic, the one who was removed passed this way an

14     hour ago and organised them to come and wait for me with rifles pointed

15     and to maltreat me.  Mr. President, I believe that definitely this is

16     definitely not to be tolerated.

17             "X: Absolutely.

18             "M: If you have any respect for me, you will order

19     Jovica Stanisic, who is pulling the strings, to remove this gang from

20     here within one or two hours time, not to see them here ever again, or in

21     Erdut, Pajzos, (?)...," there is a question mark after the word "Pajzos"

22     in the English, "... or wherever it is that they have encamped.  That is

23     a true gang, I guarantee you that.

24             "X: And where did they wait for you?

25             "M: Here in Tovarnik, they waited for me, around 15 of them, with

Page 18149

 1     rifles pointed at me.  The one with a red beret said his name was

 2     Marko Bajic.  I did not see that.  He could have told me any name, but it

 3     is the same gang that kidnapped Prijic.  I am kindly asking you to order

 4     Jovica Stanisic to cleanse them from Erdut, Pajzos, and all other places

 5     that they have occupied within an hour or two, otherwise I will have to

 6     do something.  This is not good."

 7             Sir, once again, there is simply no way that this was a mistake.

 8     This was a message sent to Milan Martic to remind him that while Serbia

 9     supported him, he could not depart too far from the course the Serbian

10     leadership wanted him to follow.  In particular, he could not suspend the

11     members of the Serbian DB who worked in his Ministry of the Interior.

12     Isn't that the real truth?

13        A.   I absolutely believe in this.  Martic who was the sort of people

14     who would never steer clear of the truth.  But let me tell that you this

15     terrible incident was not something that I was aware of, and why would I

16     have been aware of everything, because I was going -- touring the area,

17     because I had to attend to my duties, and I may have well been

18     investigating a murder on that day.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I'm --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

21             MS. MARCUS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You're doing approximately the same as you did

23     before.

24             The witness testified that he received reports that this whole

25     incident about not recognising Martic.  Now you may have or may not have

Page 18150

 1     doubts about that, but then to ask the witness, Isn't this what happened,

 2     which means that -- there are two possibilities:  Either there's an

 3     assumptions that the witness has any knowledge apart from what was

 4     reported to him, that's one option; the other option is that the witness

 5     was not telling us the truth when he told us about what was reported to

 6     him.

 7             Now, these two matters are -- may be relevant to explore, but to

 8     say isn't it -- this is what happened, that is a -- I mean, the witness

 9     wasn't present, so he has no firsthand knowledge of it.  So he relies on

10     reports.  And he doesn't know anything about this apparently, about this

11     telephone conversation.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I've understood, respectfully, on this

13     particular issue, as far as I understood the witness saying, he did have

14     direct involvement.  He said he sent his guys to border in terms of

15     Prijic, and so with his direct involvement and his assertions that would

16     have gone unanswered -- now, I take Your Honours' point.  Perhaps one

17     document would have done it.  I think one document led him to say it was

18     possible, but because of the point that he had made about this and

19     because of our case on this, I felt that it was my obligation to put to

20     our complete position though this evidence to make sure that he

21     responded --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but to put your position to a witness is not

23     the same as to put every piece of evidence to a witness.  You could say,

24     We have a -- a telephone conversation recorded in which this and this is

25     said.  But the main issue is whether you sent someone there, yes or no.

Page 18151

 1     The knowledge of the witness is exclusively based on what was reported to

 2     him.

 3             Now, whether it was a wrong report or whether the witness has not

 4     told us the truth about what was reported to him.  That's the key issue,

 5     I would say.  And what has happened, apparently there is at least

 6     contradicting evidence on what has happened, and the Chamber will have to

 7     weigh the words and the -- the hearsay evidence of this witness on what

 8     happened with all the other evidence, and that's what we'll do.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Djukic, you testified at page 17978 that the Skorpions unit:

12             "They belonged to the Slavonia Baranja corps, I think the 11th,

13     but they were also answerable to the detached Ministry of Defence

14     headquartered in Erdut, headed by Milan Milovanovic," that's how the

15     transcript read, "aka Mrgud.  He was the boss or the chief because he was

16     the assistant minister of defence and had, by virtue of I know which

17     authority, boundless, limitless powers."

18             Now I believe that what you said was, "by virtue of I don't know

19     which authority," if that is in fact the case, what did you mean when you

20     said that?  Who was it that gave Mrgud that boundless, limitless

21     authority.  Do you know or do you not know?

22        A.   Either Martic, that's to say President Martic, or the minister of

23     the Army of the Krajina, Colonel Suput.  Nobody else.  Of course, let me

24     just correct you.  Milanovic, whatever person he may have been, didn't

25     have any card [as interpreted].  I don't know where you got that

Page 18152

 1     information from.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there must be some

 4     sort of confusion because on page 82, line 6, there's a card.  But that's

 5     not what the witness said.  He said something else.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you said Milanovic, whatever person he may

 7     have been, didn't have any ...

 8             What?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A guard of sorts.  A guard would be

10     an elite unit.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this -- there's

12     another confusion.  On page 82, lines between 18 and 23, again, there is

13     confusion there as well with what is on transcript.  But I refrained from

14     intervening because of time constraints.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if it's serious you should do.  If you

16     consider it not of such importance that you refrain, we'll follow that.

17             Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.

18             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now earlier, Mr. Djukic, you acknowledged that you were not aware

20     of the relationship between Milanovic and the Serbian DB.  You said you

21     were aware of his relationship with the public security and Badza, but

22     you acknowledged that for that individual and a number of others you were

23     not aware of their relationship, if any, to the Serbian DB.

24             That's accurate; right?

25        A.   I said that he was on a close terms with Radovan Stojicic, Badza,

Page 18153

 1     and Vlastimir Djordjevic, Rodja, both as a friend and in professional

 2     terms.  The letter being here now with you.

 3        Q.   Okay.  At page 17979 you were asked:

 4             "Mr. Djukic, you said that they were part" -- this is referring

 5     to the Skorpions.  "You said that they were part of the Slavonia Baranja

 6     Corps.  Do you know who members of this battalion the Skorpions received

 7     their orders from?"

 8             You answered:

 9             "On certain issues from General Loncar, or the officer authorised

10     by him.  On the issue of providing security for the oil plant, from the

11     director of the oil company.  And on some other specific issues, from

12     Milanovic."

13             Now, the knowledge you have regarding who was giving orders to

14     the Skorpions dates from which years, please.

15        A.   If my memory serves me well they were formed sometime in 1992,

16     and I said that they had a dual role that was to maintain positions and

17     to provide technical support to the oil plant which was very vulnerable

18     because of possible sabotage.

19             Now, as for the relationship between Loncar and Milanovic, that's

20     not something I can speak to.  I think, and a confirmation of this I got

21     yesterday, that they were well co-ordinated and harmonised.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, why not answer the question, Mr. Djukic?  The

23     question was:  What years.  You had your knowledge.  Ms. Marcus asks the

24     dates from which years.  You started to say that they were formed

25     sometime in 1992.  That is about years.  And it went up to when?

Page 18154

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what else am I supposed to

 2     answer to?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you gave knowledge regarding who was given

 4     orders to the Skorpions.  You had mentioned two sources:  Providing

 5     security for the oil plant; and, on other specific issues, Milanovic.

 6             Now, the only thing Ms. Marcus is asking you is receiving

 7     instructions from two sides.  That was during what period of time.  That

 8     was the question.  And perhaps I could assist you.  You said they were

 9     formed in 1992.  Does that mean that receiving orders both from -- to say

10     the oil plant side and from Milanovic on specific issues, that started

11     right once the formation -- once the unit had been formated -- formed?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  Save for Milanovic who

13     had continuity; whereas, the corps commander and the directors changed

14     between 1992 and 1995.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now this situation of receiving

16     instructions or orders from both directions, that continued until when?

17     Until 1995 or ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the way through to the point

19     when the Skorpions left the districts in 1996.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they left the district.  And

22     then I met Mr. Milanovic -- well, you did ask me to explain this to you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, first of all, you're invited to answer the

24     question.  The question -- the answer is:  This went on from 1992 to

25     1996.  That's an answer to the question.

Page 18155

 1             So do not start explaining an answer that has not yet been given.

 2             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

 3             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Now, even within those years, you were not aware of every

 5     instruction or every order that was given to Milanovic; isn't that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   As far as the military component is concerned, I wasn't aware of

 8     a single order.  I've already said repeatedly that I didn't have any

 9     co-operation or was on good terms with the RSK army because I predicted

10     their imminent breakup or demise.

11        Q.   I'll take that as a yes answer.

12             So you were not aware of every instruction or every order given

13     to Milanovic; yes?  Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And then you were also not aware of all the details of every

16     instruction or every order given to or received by the Skorpions; is that

17     correct?  Yes or no, please, sir.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At page 17991, as you were starting to tell us about your

20     investigation into the NIK oil company at Dzeletovci, you were asked:

21             "Can you now tell us, please, did you know or did you inform the

22     military authorities about the activities that you intended to undertake

23     at the NIK?"

24             Your answer was:

25             "Your Honours, if I may just clarify something.  Even had the

Page 18156

 1     Defence asked me --" and then you were cut off.

 2             Can you specify for us what you were going to say?  Even had the

 3     Defence asked you, do you remember what you were going to say.  If you

 4     don't remember, please just say so.

 5        A.   I do remember that.  They were all stressful situations.

 6             This is my answer.  This was a criminal inquiry into the crimes

 7     and their perpetrators, and this was something that I was not duty-bound

 8     to inform the Army of at all.

 9        Q.   Now you testified that you were assigned to investigate the

10     operations of the oil industry.  I believe you told us that this was in

11     January and February of 1994.  You said:

12             "Two inspectors arriving from Knin, they are economists, and they

13     were able to inspect the financial dealings of the company; whereas, I

14     was only there in order to assist them in drafting a report and possibly

15     a criminal complaint, if that was required."

16             Who was it who assigned you to investigate the operations of the

17     oil industry?  Very briefly, please.

18        A.   This was a continuous activity.  I said that President Martic

19     obtained the information.  Krsto Zarkovic and I planned the action,

20     IKOR [phoen] and that was part of it.  As chief of public security, I

21     didn't have anyone to receive information from when it comes to operative

22     information.  It is my duty to give a -- posit orders to others and get

23     involved in matters if they deserve my attention.

24        Q.   Perhaps just to clarify, under whose authority was the

25     investigation conducted?

Page 18157

 1        A.   The investigation was conducted, pursuant to the Law on Criminal

 2     Proceedings which authorises official persons when there are grounded

 3     suspicions that a crime would be committed, they would then be activated

 4     automatically.  So there is no order.  There is no need for an order to

 5     be issued.  You just had to take action pursuant to law.

 6        Q.   And what specifically were the allegations that were being

 7     investigated?  Please, as briefly as possible.

 8        A.   In brief, President Martic noticed that the proceeds in -- into

 9     the budget were diminished, and he was wondering whether there was an

10     illegal outflow of capital from the oil industry.  And it was established

11     that that was, indeed, the case.

12        Q.   Who was the outflow going to?  So whether there was an illegal

13     outflow of capital, to whom did you discover that it was being

14     transferred to?

15        A.   We discovered, and I already replied, there was a road under

16     construction, some 35 kilometres of road through the region.  It was 7

17     metres wide.  The work was done by a private company, Borovica from Ruma,

18     and the investigation established that there was less asphalt and gravel

19     used for the road, and this involved a huge amount of money, and then

20     Borovica from this money that was channeled out, syphoned out, he gave it

21     to Egic who was then a member of the assembly.  He gave it to them.  And

22     he is today one of the richest men in Novi Sad.

23        Q.   Now who did you send the reports to once the investigation was

24     concluded?  Please, Mr. Djukic, try to answer very briefly.  I'm trying

25     to ask you some questions so that we can follow up on this afterwards.

Page 18158

 1     And my time is very short.  I'm nearly done.  Please, very briefly, to

 2     whom did you send the final reports of the investigation?

 3        A.   The criminal complaint against the two individuals was forwarded

 4     to the competent district public prosecutor, Petar Stupar, who was a very

 5     honourable and very conscientious man, very conscientious worker.  And

 6     this was a crime that involved immediate detention; in other words, the

 7     detention of these individuals would follow immediately.

 8        Q.   Were there any police officials involved in the investigation

 9     apart from yourself?

10             MR. JORDASH:  Sorry, just wondering what the relevance is of this

11     investigation?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

13             MS. MARCUS:  It's hard to answer, Your Honour, without -- this is

14     the first time we heard of it.  I just want this answer to this one

15     question, and then we'll determine what --

16             MR. JORDASH:  Well, we --

17             MS. MARCUS:  It was led by the Simatovic Defence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. MARCUS:  So for us, when something is led, it wasn't in the

20     notice, and we don't know.  There obviously must have been some relevance

21     because they raised it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection --

23             MR. JORDASH:  [Overlapping speakers]  Sorry, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.

25             Please proceed.

Page 18159

 1             MS. MARCUS:  That was my final question on this issue.

 2        Q.   Mr. Djukic, were there any other police officials with you

 3     involved in this investigation.

 4        A.   Well, first of all, other than Kostic, Kojic, and the minister,

 5     there are no other officials.  All the other persons were professionals,

 6     workers.  They were police officers, commanders, chiefs.  Krsto

 7     Radovic [as interpreted], for instance, is a -- has a Ph.D. now and is an

 8     instructor or a lecturer in Banja Luka --

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my information.  Do you say that many other

11     persons were involved, therefore, in this investigation?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I was precise.  Two inspectors

13     who specialised in -- in white-collar crime, Krsto Zarkovic and me, the

14     four of us.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MS. MARCUS:

17        Q.   When you were speaking about the Skorpions and you spoke about

18     Slobodan Medic, this at is 17992, you spoke about Radovan Stojicic, aka

19     Badza, being a frequent guest of Medic.  And you mentioned that Milovan

20     Terzic also visited, if I understood you correctly?

21             Can you tell who Milovan Terzic was?  Please, very briefly sir.

22        A.   Milovan Terzic was one of the managers of the oil industry, but

23     he did not live in Serbia.  He lived in Mirkovci.  And for some reason

24     that was not known to me, he spent a lot of time with the leadership of

25     the public security in Serbia, and he was even given gifts by them.  He

Page 18160

 1     received some resolvers from them.  Now why it was, I don't know.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic.

 3             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, apparently Mr. Petrovic has nothing to

 5     bring to our attention at this moment.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.  Could I --

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, because

 9     in the meantime what I thought was omitted from the transcript was

10     actually there.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you.  Could the court officer please call up

13     P1061.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Unnecessary to remind you that you've got five

15     minutes left.

16             MS. MARCUS:

17        Q.   What you see before you is a military report on paramilitary

18     units.  We say that this document dates from after May 1996.

19     Your Honours I refer you to the transcript at the 27th of October, 2010,

20     at page 8206.

21             I'll give you a minute to just read through the first page.

22             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may.  Would my

23     colleague please tell me who the author of this document is?  And where

24     it's from, what organ, so that the witness may get his bearings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness is invited to read this document.

Page 18161

 1     If you would have presented it to him you would have given him perhaps

 2     other information.  We do not know yet what the questions are, so it's

 3     premature to say that for the questions to follow that you would need to

 4     give this information to the witness, Mr. Petrovic.

 5             The witness may read the document.

 6             MS. MARCUS:

 7        Q.   Can I specifically ask you to read from where number 1 starts,

 8     that paragraph, and then the paragraph which will be on your next page.

 9        A.   Could you scroll down the second page.  It has to be scrolled

10     down a bit.

11             Could you lift up the first page.  The Serbian version.  I don't

12     see the bottom of it.  I didn't see the bottom.  Yes, now I have it.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14        A.   Please go ahead.

15        Q.   I have two very brief questions on this.

16             Were aware of the Skorpions' involvement in the smuggling of

17     lumber?  Yes or no.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did your investigation involve that issue in any way?  Yes or no,

20     please, sir.

21        A.   Yes.  A large quantity of lumber was seized, and, you know, not

22     to mention that the judges sold it after I left from there.

23        Q.   Now, did your investigation also involve shipments of oil to

24     Serbia, other than the -- the transfer of moneys.  You told us earlier

25     that your investigation involved the transfer of money.  Now you told us


Page 18162

 1     it also involved the smuggling of lumber.  Did your investigation also

 2     involve shipments of oil to Serbia?

 3        A.   No.  Oil did not go to Serbia.  The crude oil was sent to Serbia

 4     and then it was refined and processed in Pancevo.  But I'm no expert for

 5     that, so I couldn't do it.

 6        Q.   So if I understand you correctly, your investigation did not

 7     involve the transfer or the shipment of crude oil to Serbia from

 8     Dzeletovci; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.  We just had information as to the quantities

10     that had gone there and we did that.  However, the technology or the way

11     they worked was such that they could always deceive you as to the

12     quantities and the amounts that actually were exported out.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, have I two questions left.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, I earlier told you several times that

15     you could be more efficient by not going through all these documents.  We

16     have to stop not later than quarter past 2.00.  I have a commitment

17     outdoors.  I told you that you would have time until quarter to 2.00.

18     Therefore, I will now give an opportunity to Mr. Jordash.  If the last

19     final ten minutes leave some time, we will consider whether to grant that

20     time to you.

21             Mr. Jordash.

22             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:

24        Q.   Returning to the subject, if I may, of Kojic and his links with

25     the DB.  You said today at transcript 63, in relation to the fact that

Page 18163

 1     you did not know he had links with the DB, that he most certainly would

 2     not have told us about it, or anyone else, because that would have caused

 3     a lot of discontent among us.

 4             You also said at page 73 today that Prijic had effectively

 5     accused Kostic of having links to the DB at a meeting where Prijic was

 6     complaining about being kidnapped by Kostic.  Was an association with the

 7     DB at that time within your region considered to be an insult?

 8        A.   To the contrary.  Why would it be considered to be insult?  Why

 9     would it be wrong to be a collaborator with your own state, with your own

10     country?  Every Englishman who travels abroad actually notes down

11     information that might be useful for his service.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let me qualify that, then.  So it was considered to be

13     okay to be an operative collecting intelligence for the Serbian DB;

14     correct?

15        A.   No, not being an operative.  But if we learned some information

16     that would of interest to Serbia, it would be quite logical that that may

17     pose a threat to us as well and that as such we should send them the

18     information.  But we did have telegram communication with the public

19     security station -- sector of Serbia about crime and law and order and so

20     on.

21        Q.   Why did you say that Kojic wouldn't have told you about his links

22     with the DB because it would have caused discontent?  Why -- why would

23     that have been?

24        A.   Well, discontent, that's something else, and I was precise.  But

25     you want me to answer briefly.  You have to know what it is that the

Page 18164

 1     security service does.  A collaborator is a person who -- in an organised

 2     manner and permanently provides information.  He works under a code-name,

 3     and he is not allowed to disclose that information.  As for discontent,

 4     that was a reference exclusively to our pay.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So in any event, Kojic you -- he never asserted any

 6     relationship with the DB, and you never worked out he had any

 7     relationship with the DB.  Did you know if he had a relationship with the

 8     public security of Serbia in the time you worked with him?

 9        A.   Yes.  Well, I, too, was in direct contact with General Milic who

10     was the chief of the crime prevention service.  We co-ordinated our work.

11     We worked together on a smuggling of vehicles and tobacco and so on, and

12     I don't see anything wrong on that.  To this day we co-operate along

13     those lines.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jordash we are close to the five minutes.

15             MR. JORDASH:  I know.  But other issues arose during the

16     Prosecution's examination.  I was hoping to get about ten, even that

17     would be too short, but -- it's difficult to cover --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What you have dealt with now arose before that, I

19     think.  But I'm not quite sure, so I have to be careful there.

20             Mr. Petrovic.

21             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we

22     will be able to complete our re-examination by 2.15.  I will try to be

23     shorter than I originally thought I would be.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  How much minutes would you need, Mr. Petrovic?

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may retain the

Page 18165

 1     15 minutes that I announced originally when you first asked me about it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Five more minutes for you, Mr. Jordash, at this

 3     moment.

 4             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Just answer the question simply without any extra detail.  Please

 6     help me.  Did Kojic tell you or others, or did you become aware that he

 7     was linked with the public security in 1993?

 8        A.   I've already told you that he never told me that he had any legal

 9     status there, employment.  But we did talk, and there was communication.

10     We had meetings with Republika Srpska also because crime was on the rise

11     at the time, and co-operation is normal in police work.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Just coming to your comment about Kojic being

13     number two to Martic.  Was Martic responsibile for the RSK army?

14        A.   He was the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of Krajina

15     under the constitution.

16        Q.   I'm interested in how you place Kojic at number two, given

17     what -- the evidence that you've given us; i.e., that he was arrested by

18     elements of the RSK army, that he had no command authority over Arkan and

19     that group, and that he was dealing with police issues in the main.  Why

20     do you say number two?  Are you talking formally?

21        A.   I don't know where you came by that information that Kojic had

22     been arrested.  There are a lot of errors in the interpretation, and I

23     have never reacted because I was interrupted enough as it were.  I never

24     said anything about Kojic having ever been arrested.  And another matter,

25     Kojic was in charge of the police, not the army.


Page 18166

 1        Q.   Right.  So Kojic wasn't in charge of anything else other than the

 2     police; correct?

 3        A.   Clearly.  And also of co-ordination with other structures.  I

 4     don't know if you understand what co-ordination is, if that comes across

 5     clear in the transcript.

 6        Q.   So the co-ordination between the police and other structures, he

 7     was in charge of that, too?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And that was limited to SBWS; correct?

10        A.   I didn't understand what you meant by the acronym.  We don't have

11     that acronym in our language.

12             Do you mean the Slavonia Baranja region?  Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.

14             MR. JORDASH:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You even stayed within your next five minutes.  You

17     would have had one minute left.

18             Mr. Petrovic, if you would perform similarly.

19             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do believe I can.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Petrovic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Djukic, a couple of questions only to

22     clarify certain issues, and please be brief.

23             At the time of the takeover of Samac - that's to say the 16th and

24     the 17th of April in 1992 - how many people were there in the 17th

25     Tactical Group?  What was their head count roughly or precisely?

Page 18167

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please slow down.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrovic --

 3             One second.  One second, please.

 4             Mr. Petrovic, a similar performance is not achieved by speaking

 5     at double speech.

 6             Could you read the transcript to see if the whole of your

 7     question was translated and transcribed.

 8             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will put the question this way,

 9     Your Honour, with your leave.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As long as you do it slowly, it's fine.

11             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Djukic, how many men were there in the 4th battalion in Samac

13     in mid-April 1992?  How many members were there?

14        A.   Precisely 550 and another 150 would have been needed to have the

15     full complement.

16        Q.   How many members did the 1st Battalion number?  The one in

17     Obudovac and Batkusa in the month of April 1992?

18        A.   Six hundred.  That was the best battalion, and later became an

19     elite unit when it was taken over by the locals.

20        Q.   How many members did the 2nd and 3rd Battalions have, if you

21     know?

22        A.   I do.  Between 500 and 600.  Not all of them were active duty at

23     all times.  Some of them would reside in their homes.  They were farmers

24     and would be called when necessary.

25        Q.   Witness, the volunteers who arrived Batkusa by helicopter.  How

Page 18168

 1     many of them were, roughly?

 2        A.   I can state with full responsibility less than 30, definitely.

 3        Q.   Witness, the police station in Samac would have been

 4     restructured, as you put it.  Even had these men not arrived, were there

 5     enough local forces to perform the tasks set by the SDS without any

 6     difficulty?

 7        A.   There was no difficulty.  It could have been Obudovac on its own.

 8     It could have accomplished the task.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djukic, were there any civilian casualties as Samac was taken

10     over between the 16th and the 17th?

11        A.   No.  I would say that it was a large-scale raid rather than a

12     war.

13        Q.   Mr. Djukic, my learned friend, Ms. Marcus, gave you a document to

14     read over the break, which is P1418.  Did you review the document?

15        A.   Yes.  I wanted to be told if it was Milan Milicic who signed the

16     document, because if that is the case then I can tell you that I know

17     this document by heart from my previous time as officer.

18        Q.   Then, if you know, tell us, who is behind the document?  Who

19     inspired the document?

20        A.   The discontented Simo Zaric who was convicted here.

21        Q.   Do you know why Simo Zaric inspired certain individuals to draw

22     up this document?

23        A.   Well, he had the ambition to become the president of the

24     republic, and he was an Orthodox communist.

25             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have a look

Page 18169

 1     at P1418, the last page in both versions.

 2        Q.   Witness, can you tell us the following.  Do you know if

 3     Mile Beronja who signed this, a colonel, was involved in crime in Samac

 4     in 1992?

 5        A.   Well, whether that was the case or not, he got involved with a

 6     woman, and because of him we weren't able to liberate the villages of

 7     Bukvik and another one.  And we had our people, Serbs, who were stranded

 8     there.  He was a very poor officer.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djukic, can you please have a look at the list of signatories

10     here.  Tell us, if you know, whether any of these individuals were

11     involved in criminal activities in Samac in 1992?

12        A.   Not in Samac they were not.  However, Captain Milan Josic, an

13     elite captain of a battalion, was killed on account of crime.  He was

14     killed in a traffic accident or at least something that was engineered to

15     look like that.  And there was also something about Jovan Erletic.

16             Another thing, it is quite odd that Simo Zaric should be writing

17     this, as a school's officer [as interpreted], that somebody was killed

18     and that he should not file a criminal report about it.  The military

19     prosecutor Gajic was one that would be bringing charges against suspected

20     perpetrators.  It was stated here that he was killed.

21        Q.   Do you know what it was that Simo Zaric wanted to achieve with

22     this document?

23        A.   A career.  He wanted a promotion.  Other -- otherwise, he was a

24     singer.

25        Q.   Mr. Djukic, can you clarify this.  Let's move to Brcko.  At the

Page 18170

 1     point of the takeover of power in Brcko, when was it that Zika Crnogorac,

 2     the person that we talked about, showed up?

 3        A.   Only after the commander of the Bijeljina Guard, Savic, aka

 4     Mauzer, moved on to take up some other duties.

 5        Q.   Can you please tell us --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Really slow down, slightly.  Adjusting our speed of

 7     speech takes more time than to reduce the speed with 15 per cent.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Djukic, was it before or after the takeover or liberation of

11     Brcko?

12        A.   After.

13        Q.   You told us, and this perhaps remained unclear after your today's

14     evidence, was Zika Crnogorac a criminal himself, or was he the person who

15     went about arresting criminals in Brcko in December of 1992 -- in the

16     summer of 1992?

17        A.   Well, according to what he was doing, he was indeed trying to

18     prevent crime, and that's something I heard from others.  But he also

19     went about abusing individuals, extorting statements from them.  And you

20     misunderstood me.  He didn't take all of the vehicles to Pale.  Some of

21     the vehicles had gone missing before.  He only said that he took several

22     vehicles and some valuables to Pale to Karadzic, which isn't something

23     that I saw myself.

24        Q.   Let's take it bit by bit, Witness.  First, the mistreatment of

25     those who were arrested, of which ethnicity were they and what was he

Page 18171

 1     trying to do?

 2        A.   They were Serbs, all of them.  Some of them were even active duty

 3     policemen and inspectors of the SUP.  He was forcing admissions out of

 4     them, confessions.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Second, Mr. Djukic, he went about arresting perpetrators of crime

 8     based on these very statements that he forced out of those other people.

 9     Am I right?

10        A.   Yes, you're right.

11        Q.   Next, he tried to find perpetrators of the theft of vehicles;

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.  He took up files relating to certain BMWs that were already

14     missing, but there were records of these vehicles and he was trying to

15     find their whereabouts.

16        Q.   And the reason why he was trying to find where they were was

17     because they -- he wanted to find out who the perpetrators were.

18        A.   Yes, because they were vehicles belonging to Muslims.  And it was

19     proper that these vehicles be returned to them because there were quite a

20     few Muslims living in our area.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.

22             Ms. Marcus.

23             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I understand the time constraints, but

24     the leading questions are truly piling up.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  To some extent, of course, they are in

Page 18172

 1     response to question put by others, to say so.

 2             Mr. Petrovic, I would have another concern apart from the leading

 3     character of the questions; that is, often this type of quick gaining of

 4     information lacks entirely the basis on which the witness is able to

 5     testify.

 6             Please proceed.  You've got three minutes left.

 7             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Djukic, what is the basis or the source of your knowledge

 9     about Zika Crnogorac and his attempts to enforce at least some appearance

10     of law and order in Brcko?

11        A.   I said yesterday that Boro and Petar Kaurinovic, colleagues of

12     mine, attended studies part-time in Zagreb.  They were the ones who

13     provided me with this information as colleagues more than anything else,

14     and they asked me to advise them as to what they should do so -- so that

15     they would not exceed their powers conferred upon them by the law.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   These two individuals you mentioned, were they in any way

19     connected to Zika Crnogorac?

20        A.   They provided him with information not because they wanted to but

21     because there were certain inhabitants of Brcko who were the

22     untouchables, the protected ones, and I have to mention, of course, that

23     they were in the SUP, and they were working on crimes.  And they did file

24     criminal reports for all these cases.  None of them were left behind in

25     drawers.

Page 18173

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at P3038, page 15 in English and 13 in

 2     B/C/S.

 3             Have a look at the document.  Specifically the left-hand side.

 4     Is there anywhere in this document that it is indicated that it was

 5     produced in the State Security Department of the Republic of Serbia, or

 6     that it had to do with the reserve force of the State Security Services?

 7     Does this in any way indicate any sort of link between this individual

 8     and the State Security Service?

 9        A.   I am a bit puzzled by what is written there, "I," or "on behalf

10     of the Department of Serbia."  This isn't quite legible --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat what he said.

12             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours.  Misleading.  The question is

13     misleading.  I wouldn't want to say why it's misleading, but I think

14     Mr. Petrovic understands why.  The document is a part of a file.  That is

15     what I said in the question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that makes also what is not found in a

17     document, Mr. Petrovic, is easy to establish by two intelligent or three

18     intelligent parties to look at the document than to find that no

19     reference is made to food, for example.  Of course, that's obvious.

20     Whether there's any other reason -- I mean, what this witness says about

21     that he doesn't find anything in this document.  That doesn't help us in

22     any way, is it?

23             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree fully.  And

24     I am -- I wonder why my learned friend showed this document to the

25     witness in order to establish that there was a link with state security,

Page 18174

 1     because it is a quite apparent that it cannot be established on -- on

 2     this basis.  That's why I showed the document to the witness again.

 3             I have one more question left, with your leave.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One question.

 5             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djukic, was it the case that in the MUP that the MUP would

 7     admit anyone with a criminal record, anyone with criminal convictions

 8     based on your knowledge and experience stemming from your police career?

 9        A.   Article 45 of the Law on the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, as

10     well as of other republics, clearly stated that such an individual could

11     be admitted only if it had to do with a traffic accident, which was

12     done -- committed out of negligence, but it could not involve in any case

13     a property crime or a crime in general.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

15             MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I promised you, Ms. Marcus, if there was any time

18     left, I would give it to you.  Also in view of the fact that the two

19     Defence teams, to a large extent, also for the Stanisic Defence in

20     cross-examination, seeking evidence on its own case, there was close to

21     six hours, where you had three half hours.

22             One question.  Let's see how much time that takes, and then we'll

23     see whether there's time for the second one.

24             MS. MARCUS:  I withdraw the question, Your Honour [overlapping

25     speakers].


Page 18175

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Both?

 2             MS. MARCUS:  Yes [Overlapping speakers].

 3             Thank you, Mr. Djukic.

 4             Both.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             Mr. Djukic, since the Judges have no further questions for you,

 7     this concludes your evidence.  You may remain seated.  Mr. Djukic, I'd

 8     like to thank you for coming to The Hague.  I'm glad that your medical

 9     condition was such that you could give your evidence these days.  You've

10     answered the questions put to you by the parties, by the Bench.  Thank

11     you for that.  And I wish you a safe return home again.

12             You may follow the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I apologise, once

14     again, for speaking too fast.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  At least those words were spoken in the appropriate

16     pace.  Everyone will be happy with these last words.

17             You may follow the usher.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume Tuesday,

20     the 13th of March, quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom, II.

21             We stand adjourned.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.13 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of March,

24                           2012, at 2.15 p.m.