1 Thursday, 8 March 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica
11 Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 I would like to briefly address a few matters.
15 First of all, the Chamber would very much like to conclude the
16 testimony of this witness today. If we would not manage to do that
17 before quarter to 2.00, then there are a few options. Either to extend
18 slightly the last session in the morning. If that would not be
19 sufficient, we would consider to additionally sit this afternoon.
20 Unfortunately, it's not possible to do that at the beginning of the
21 afternoon because there would not even be two Judges. Therefore, we
22 would then re-start later this afternoon. But, to the extent possible,
23 the Chamber would urge the parties to see whether they with conduct their
24 cross-examinations in such a way that we could conclude in the normal
1 That is one.
2 Second. Mr. Jordash, we received yesterday a message about the
3 availability of Sir Ivor Roberts. This Chamber has accommodated in every
4 respect all the wishes. We have scheduled him exactly on the day -- even
5 after we had to wait a month, we scheduled him exactly on the day you
6 indicated he was available. Now if would be a matter of one or two days,
7 then we might even then consider - I'm not saying that we will - we would
8 consider to change that date slightly. But now another two months is
9 really not something that the Chamber can accept. And if you say he
10 can't make it, to testify in a court is a civil duty, and the Stanisic
11 Defence knows exactly that if a witness prioritises his activities in
12 such a way that he would be unavailable for giving testimony, that, of
13 course, you, as the calling party, you know exactly how to obtain the
14 support of the Chamber to -- to -- let me say to encourage the witness to
15 appear in court at such a time that it still makes sense to hear his
17 You know exactly how to do that. I'm not going to further expand
18 on that. Of course, the preferable way would be to come to an agreement
19 one way or another. But we even on the days he would arrive then, he
20 should return then, we fully accommodated that after having waited for
21 month. So, therefore, there is not an option.
22 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I hear what you're saying precisely,
23 and we've appreciated - and we do appreciate - how patient Your Honour
24 has been with this issue, and we're going to do everything we can to
25 ensure that the Court and this trial is -- is not in any way obstructed
1 by this particular witness. And we apologise.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You do not have to apologise. Well, it's
3 apparently -- I -- I -- the Chamber doesn't think that it's the Stanisic
4 Defence which is to be blamed in any way for it, and the Defence, as
5 always, has the full support of the Chamber to present its witnesses as
6 it deems fit.
7 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: These were the matters I'd like to raise.
9 Good morning, Mr. Djukic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the office has
13 announced to me as I arrived here that I would be testifying roughly for
14 eight hours, and this covered both the Prosecution and the Defence. The
15 yesterday's hearing was highly stressful for me, not because of you, but
16 because of certain obligations that await me as I return home.
17 Let me tell you that as a result of my work for the mission
18 that -- on which suspicions have been cast here, I had to undergo a heart
19 surgery --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Mr., Mr. -- No suspicion has been cast on
22 Please proceed.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I kindly request that should I feel
24 ill - this is nitroglycerin - may I be allowed to sit aside or leave the
25 courtroom in order to inject myself with it?
1 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any need in that respect, please address
2 me, and then we'll consider your request. And, of course, we would
3 always allow you to take whatever necessary measure in order to not to
4 suffer any physical damage. So that would mean that we would allow you
5 to leave the court for that.
6 Then, of course, we would inquire in how much time that takes,
7 et cetera. But please be assured that should you address me, that we'll
8 take the appropriate approach.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two minutes more, please.
12 Over the first break, I will receive the medical findings
13 concerning my blood pressure, which is decisive for my future treatment.
14 Secondly, Your Honours, I would kindly ask you to instruct the
15 Defence to insert into the file of the documents that I brought along and
16 gave to them this thank you note from the Croatian authorities where they
17 address me as the chief of police and express their gratitude. This may
18 be of significance for my further discussions with the Prosecution.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are free to submit what they want to
20 submit, and to make it a condition for future conversations with the
21 Prosecution is not something this Chamber would expect you to do. But
22 the Chamber is not ordering any party to do any such thing.
23 I also say this, now knowing approximately what the document is
24 about, parties are free to do it. If they wish not to do it, the Chamber
25 will not order them.
1 Please be seated, Mr. Djukic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, I would like to remind you that you are
4 still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the
5 beginning of your testimony. And you may have noticed already that the
6 Chamber tries to do its utmost best to have your examination be concluded
7 today so that you can leave The Hague after that.
8 Ms. Marcus, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?
9 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
11 WITNESS: PETAR DJUKIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djukic.
15 A. Good morning.
16 MS. MARCUS: Can I please have private session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
18 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
1 MS. MARCUS:
2 Q. Mr. Djukic, when we stopped yesterday, I was asking you about
3 certain individuals in relation to Bosanski Samac. Please answer as
4 briefly as possible. I'll just give you a name. You can just tell me
5 what their position was, to your knowledge, in Bosanski Samac. Do you
6 know Milan Josic?
7 A. Very well.
8 Q. What was his position?
9 A. Active-duty captain of the Yugoslav People's Army, with the air
10 force. His position was that of commander of the Obudovac Special
11 Detachment; one of the elite units. He was later to become the Chief of
12 Staff of the Posavina Brigade.
13 Q. Milan Maksimovic?
14 A. An intelligence officer with the 2nd Posavina Brigade.
15 Q. Jovan Kujundzic.
16 A. I'm not familiar with the family name of Kujundzic. Or I simply
17 don't remember.
18 Q. Sasa Culibrk.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Nenad Mitic.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Davor Subotic.
23 A. No.
24 Q. And, finally, for this list, Aleksandar Vukovic.
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Now, there's been evidence --
3 A. You're welcome.
4 Q. -- in this case that prior to the takeover of Bosanski Samac, and
5 prior to the arrival by helicopter of the volunteers at Batkusa, to which
6 you testified, the SDS Main Board suggested to the commander of
7 Tactical Group 17, Stevan Nikolic, that they recruit through friends and
8 acquaintances of the SDS members in Samac in the Serbian MUP, Dragan
9 Djordjevic, aka Crni, and Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli, and a group of
10 30 men from the FRY to assist in the takeover of Bosanski Samac.
11 Now although you testified that you did not enjoy credibility
12 with the SDS, were you aware of this suggestion made to Stevan Nikolic?
13 Kindly, a yes or no answer will suffice, please.
14 A. No.
15 Q. There's also been evidence that members of the SRS were sent
16 along with Crni and Debeli as part of this training. Isn't that
17 accurate, to your knowledge?
18 A. It is accurate that they were sent along, but I am not aware of
19 Crni and Debeli being involved in that.
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I refer you to P1516 and P1417.
21 Q. According to the evidence in this case, approximately 18
22 volunteers from Samac were added to this group from the FRY, plus Crni
23 and Debeli, and all 50 or so of them were trained in Lezimir and then in
24 Ilok. You were not involved in any way in the training in Lezimir or
25 Pajzos prior to the take-over of Bosanski Samac; is that correct?
1 A. I did indicate that it was only the JNA that I recognised;
2 whereas, the other structures, specifically the paramilitaries, were not
3 of interest to me at all.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus you referred to first to Lezimir and then
5 Ilok and then later Lezimir or Pajzos. Is there any risk that the
6 witness would be confused by that?
7 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, the first time I mentioned I had said
8 Ilok, Pajzos. Perhaps it's not reflected.
9 Q. You knew that I when I said Ilok, I was talking about Pajzos.
10 Did you understand that in my question?
11 A. You made a couple of mistakes but I don't have the right to
12 correct you. Batkusa was mispronounced, and it's not the Main Board of
13 the SDS but the municipal board. But I was cautioned to give a yes or no
14 answer, so I will adhere to that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Matters are sufficiently clear, I think. Please
17 Oh. Yes.
18 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, may we have a reference for the last
19 question, please, the evidence that my learned friend is referring to?
20 MS. MARCUS: Yes. I was just about to give it. It's P1576 and
21 P1416. P1576 and P1416.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
25 Q. When you were asked earlier in your testimony about Pajzos, you
2 "It was a listening centre, and I was not responsible for that
3 centre, nor was I well versed in what was going on there. I did not have
4 access to it."
5 I believe your comment referred to the pre-war period. Did you
6 have occasion to visit Pajzos any time in 1991 or thereafter?
7 A. This was mentioned on several occasions. I arrived in the area
8 on 15th of March, 1993, and the laws of physics that dictate that I could
9 not have been in two places at once.
10 Let me explain to you --
11 Q. Mr. Djukic, I'm sorry --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned Pajzos, but we didn't
13 catch what he said.
14 MS. MARCUS:
15 Q. I interrupted you, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to focus. Before
16 the takeover of Bosanski Samac, did you have occasion to visit Pajzos
17 between 1991 and up until the takeover of Bosanski Samac?
18 A. Between 1991 and 1993, I was not present in the area of Vukovar
19 at all. It was an area where fighting was going on, and I -- I wasn't
20 able to access the area at all.
21 Q. There's been evidence presented in this case that
22 Franko Simatovic came to the training ground at Ilok, Pajzos, held a
23 briefing, and informed those who had been trained that they were to be
24 deployed to Bosanski Samac by helicopter and that the objective was to
25 secure Bosanski Samac and the surrounding villages. In attendance at
1 this briefing, according to the evidence, were Debeli, Crni, and
2 Stevan Todorovic. Were you ever informed of this briefing?
3 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, that's P1516.
4 A. No. I didn't know the name of Franko Simatovic.
5 Let me just say that I didn't need any volunteers or anyone else
6 to train special police units because I know that myself very well.
7 Q. So you were not aware of the role of Franko Simatovic in
8 training, planning, or ordering in connection to the Bosanski Samac
9 takeover; is that correct?
10 A. That is correct. I heard of Simatovic only from people lacking
11 in seriousness, braggarts who thought that they would add to their own
12 significance if they said that they were in his company.
13 Q. In your testimony at page 17942, you described the arrival of
14 Stevan Todorovic and a number of volunteers by helicopter to Batkusa - I
15 hope I pronounced it correct this time. According to the evidence in
16 this case, this deployment to Bosanski Samac occurred the day after the
17 briefing by Franko Simatovic. This group arrived in Bosanski Samac the
18 day before you were invited to the meeting to advise the public security
19 station; is that correct? Yes or no, please, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question is
22 very complex. There is the role of Simatovic that the witness knows
23 nothing about, the arrival of the helicopters at Batkusa, the meeting
24 that the witness attended. So what -- what, in fact, is witness being
25 asked? What kind of answer is he supposed to give to this? There are at
1 least four or five questions contained in this one.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, I considered only the
3 last line to be the question. Is it correct that the group that arrived,
4 that they arrived the day before you were invited for the meeting?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I cannot answer with a
6 simple "yes" or "no" when Madam Prosecutor keeps using the term that I
7 was a councillor of the public security station which is not feasible.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That is why the question has been rephrased. And
9 Ms. Marcus will take care that questions will not necessarily be
10 composite and clear.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Now, you stated that these volunteers agreed to be under the
14 command of the 17th Tactical Group. In fact, other evidence in this
15 cases conforms with that information that you provided. According to
16 this evidence, two days before the takeover, Dragan Djordjevic, aka,
17 Crni, had attended a meeting with Todorovic, Blagoje Simic, and others.
18 And they discussed, including the Red Berets, in the existing
19 17th Tactical Group of the JNA?
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, that's P1576.
21 Q. Now, here's my question to you.
22 As soon as combat operations began, Crni and his group were, in
23 fact, temporarily subordinated to TG 17 which was comprised of a
24 combination of those from the FRY and the volunteers from Samac who had
25 been trained in Pajzos and Lezimir; is that correct?
1 A. Quite correct. However, I would like to note that among the
2 group that arrived in Batkusa, there was also a group of local men who
3 had worked in Serbia or Croatia earlier.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. MARCUS: And, Your Honours, I refer Your Honours to P1416, in
6 connection with that previous question.
7 Q. Now, you then described the takeover of the public security
8 station on the night of the 16th to 17th of April, 1992. You said,
9 though, that Colonel Nikolic, commander of the 17th Tactical Group, was
10 "not kept abreast of these things."
11 So Nikolic did not lead the takeover of the public security
12 station on the night of the 16th to 17th April, 1992. Is that your
14 A. Yes. And it's not a takeover but, rather, a restructuring of
15 this station because half of the Serbs were already in the station.
16 Q. So it was rather the volunteers who arrived with Stevan Todorovic
17 who led that restructuring of the station, as you say?
18 A. Yes. However, he offered to some Croats and Muslims to continue
19 working there, but under rules that he would enforce.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow, the
21 interpretation that the witness received was not clear enough. It wasn't
22 clear whether what was referred to was Stevan Todorovic, the volunteers,
23 or all of them. So the interpretation was not clear enough for the
24 witness to answer properly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness answered the question. But
1 perhaps you'd verify whether he understood the question well, Ms. Marcus.
2 And perhaps by -- in view of the answer he gave, to seek confirmation
3 that he understood your question well.
4 MS. MARCUS:
5 Q. Mr. Djukic I will repeat my question and your answer to you. My
6 question was:
7 "So it was rather the volunteers who arrived with
8 Stevan Todorovic who led that restructuring of the station, as you say?"
9 Your answer was:
10 "Yes. However, he offered to some Croats and Muslims to continue
11 working there, but under rules that he would enforce."
12 Did you understand my question and is that the appropriate
14 A. I did understand it, and I'm very pleased with the way you are
15 questioning me.
16 Q. Okay. Now you testified that Simo Zaric complained to
17 Stevan Nikolic about these volunteers who had arrived by helicopter and
18 that Nikolic replied: "That the Government of Serbia, in a decree of
19 1992, proclaimed that volunteers could report to fight."
20 So is it your evidence that the volunteers who arrived were those
21 who were authorised by the government of Serbia to come volunteer to join
22 the fight in Bosanski Samac?
23 A. Neither did I say that, nor was it that way. The government
24 allows its citizens to volunteer, especially if they hail from a certain
25 area, and it certainly would not send anyone to another area. That's not
1 the government's job.
2 Q. Well, my question was whether the volunteers were authorised by
3 the government of Serbia to come volunteer. Your answer says that the
4 government allows its citizens to volunteer. Can you tell us -- can you
5 tell us which branch of the government of Serbia you're referring to?
6 A. I'm referring to a -- to an act, actually, of -- a legal act, and
7 that law is actually implemented by other organs or other departments.
8 If you allow me, a provision in Serbia -- or, rather, a decree in Serbia
9 is a sub-law or a bylaw.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Djukic, what Ms. Marcus would like to
11 know is what authority would approve volunteers to -- to join in military
12 activity. Under that law and bylaws.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm in Serbia and I will not be
14 punished if I go to the battle-field in Bosanski Samac. But the state
15 does not have any obligation in respect of me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that the decree that proclaimed that
17 volunteers could report to fight, that all volunteers - without any
18 further decision - would be free once they had reported themselves to
19 join in such military activity, or was there any decision needed to
20 approve the joinder of volunteers in the military activity?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone had to subordinate
22 themselves to the Yugoslav People's Army. That was the obligation. But
23 in Belgrade, a large number of centres sprang up that actually organised
24 volunteers and the first person who did that - and he was never taken to
25 account for that - was Vuk Draskovic and his guard went to Gospic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. You testified at page 17954 that you went to speak to Debeli
4 after Nikolic left the area to ask him for reinforcements.
5 Do you recall the date of this discussion?
6 A. In early June. But I can't recall the exact date.
7 Q. What kind of reinforcements were you talking about? Very
8 briefly, please.
9 A. It had exclusively to do with the intervention platoon in
10 Pelagicevo. I was trained and I took part in the training, and this
11 involved exclusively people from Pelagici; acquaintances or even friends,
12 I could say, of mine.
13 Q. What position was Srecko Radovanovic, aka Debeli, in, that you
14 asked him to provide reinforcements?
15 A. The then-Chief of Staff of the Posavina Brigade, who was the
16 chief operative in the brigade, and subordinated to Commander Djordjevic.
17 Q. When asked about your conversation with Debeli, you said at page
19 "He said that they had to fight really hard to appoint those
20 duties," I believe you meant "to be appointed to those duties," "that is
21 correct. They were the first people, members of the brigade who had not
22 graduated from the Military Academy of the Yugoslavia army. He told me
23 that it was a great pity that I was on the wrong side, that I was not a
24 member of the SDS, and only after I explained to him what I was and that
25 I had passed with my units without any losses, he told me that he had
1 been a police non-commissioned officer, that he was dismissed from the
2 police, that he had a very negative view of us, people who still
3 supported Tito's idealogy, Milosevic's ideology, and that of the
4 Communist Party of Yugoslavia. He asked me -- and he asked me, once
5 again, to try and change my position. And he even said that if I were to
6 join this radical party, that I might even be conferred a rank there."
7 Weren't you already part of the JNA with a rank?
8 A. He considered that I was a promising individual because I was 48
9 years old, and he thought that I could become a Chetnik Vojvoda, duke.
10 Except that instead of the SDS, it should be the Radical Party, where you
11 read the SDS there. Or perhaps it was misinterpreted.
12 Q. Now your evidence is that when you spoke to Debeli he did not
13 mention that he was Serbian DB. Is that how you knew that Debeli was not
14 affiliated with the Serbian DB? Is that how you drew that conclusion?
15 A. In brief, I was equally well acquainted with public and state
16 security, which you can also see if you read one of my studies. Now, the
17 security of Serbia had, under its operative control, both Vojvoda Seselj
18 and all his men.
19 Q. Can you explain what you meant by "I was equally well acquainted
20 with public and state security"? Very briefly, please.
21 A. I -- a well-educated member of the police, the only general from
22 that period who is still alive and free.
23 Q. Now you said, according to the transcript, the state -- "the
24 security of Serbia had, under its operative control, both Vojvoda Seselj
25 and all his men." Are you saying that the State Security Service of
1 Serbia had Seselj under their control? Is that your evidence?
2 A. Certainly. At one point in time, he was even in prison.
3 Q. Now to go back to my original question -- I'm sorry. One moment,
5 Sorry, Mr. Djukic, just in response -- my last question was about
6 Seselj. And you said:
7 "Certainly. At one point in time, he was even in prison."
8 What -- what time are you talking about; and for what?
9 A. For unauthorised trips to Kosovo where he fermented -- where he
10 fermented unrest among the Albanians. So he was sentenced to a prison
11 term of a month.
12 Q. Mr. Djukic, I'm really trying to understand exactly what you are
13 saying, so pardon me repeated questions on this.
14 Are you saying that Seselj was being -- was under the control of
15 the state security; or are you saying they were monitoring his
16 activities, operatively speaking?
17 What precisely are you saying about the relationship between the
18 Serbian state security and Seselj?
19 A. Surveillance. Now, in what manner and how frequently, I don't
20 know because that was something that was considered secret of that
21 service, and I was not a member of the service, unfortunately.
22 Q. Okay. Now going back to the question about Debeli.
23 You told us that you believed that he was not affiliated with the
24 Serbian SDB. Was that based on the fact that he didn't mention that he
25 was so affiliated?
1 A. No. I presided over an inter-republic commission for the
2 promotion and improvement of work of the service, and I said that if you
3 were once dismissed from a service, if a staff member was once in -- once
4 dismissed from a service, that he would never again be able to apply and
5 to be employed by any other service in the former Yugoslavia. And, as
6 for him --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last part.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
9 question [sic] where you said, "And as for him," apparently referring to
10 Debeli. What did you then say?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was sacked. He was dismissed
12 from the Public Security Service of Serbia. And such a person would
13 never again be employable anywhere in Yugoslavia as an active policeman.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I made a mistake when I put "question," but
15 that's clear on the transcript now. Of course, I was referring to the
16 answer of the witness.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MARCUS:
19 Q. So that is your assumption. Did I understand that correctly?
20 A. Well, no, that was the conclusion. That was a conclusion, an
21 obligation. If a person was dismissed from service in Kragujevac, he
22 would not be employable in Osijek, for instance. That was our joint
24 Q. Now, you also testified at page 17954 that you had an occasion to
25 speak with Crni directly. In fact, you later told us that you spoke to
1 him more thereafter, but this was the first time you mentioned that. And
2 this was when you went to ask for his assistance.
3 Do you recall when this was? Was this just at the time in
4 June 1992, after you spoke with Debeli?
5 A. Yes. It was very important to me to protect my village because
6 all my property had been seized in Zagreb, and other than human lives,
7 the property that I owned was at -- was valuable. It was some 400.000
8 German marks. That would be what I would assess it as. And you agree
9 that would be even a lot for this country, let alone for my country.
10 Q. You also testified that quote -- that you, "... addressed him as
11 a proper soldier. And he told me, You are in no way bound to stand
12 before me as a soldier would." So did Crni not view you as a soldier?
13 A. No. But from some sources in Pelagicevo, he learned about my
14 credibility and my biography. And unlike some people there, he knew that
15 I was much better versed than he was.
16 Q. You said:
17 "Crni said that he had some information about me and that he was
18 more than glad to accept me as his corroborator and that I was yet to
19 benefit from my acquaintance with him."
20 How would Crni have had this information about you? Is it what
21 you just said, from some sources in Pelagicevo?
22 A. Yes. The president of the SDS, Dusan Tanasic and Crni knew that
23 the citizens of Pelagicevo were in favour of my taking over the brigade
24 and not him.
25 Q. Who appointed Crni as commander of the brigade?
1 A. Primarily he was appointed by the SDS, but the then-acting
2 Drincic [phoen] or Dencic who was a colonel at the Drina Corps, he was
3 the one who issued this order at the insistence of the SDS because Crni
4 was the first civilian who headed the army.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness did not fully
6 complete his sentence. Could he please repeat it.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The corps reference is incorrect,
8 and I see that the interpreters also had a remark to make, that not
9 everything was reflected in the transcript.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Could you please repeat the last part of your answer?
12 You told us that he was the one who issued this order at the
13 insistence of the SDS because Crni was the first civilian who headed the
14 army. And what did you then say?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That Dencic was an acting -- of the
16 Eastern Bosnia Corps, which is the largest military formation in the area
17 of Eastern Bosnia.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
19 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up P1417.
20 Q. Mr. Djukic, what I'm going to show you now on your screen is a
21 statement made by Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni?
22 MS. MARCUS: May I please have page --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal, Ms. Marcus.
24 MS. MARCUS: Not to be broadcast, please. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MS. MARCUS: May I please have page 3 in English and also page 3
2 in B/C/S.
3 Q. Can I draw your attention to the paragraph starting: "At the
4 beginning of April..." It says:
5 "At the beginning of April, a group of Radical Party members went
6 to training at the training centre near Ilok in the town of Pajzos. A
7 group of 18 men from Samac also came to the centre for training. I was
8 at the centre as an instructor, although I attended to other jobs and did
9 not train these specific men. When they concluded their training, these
10 men returned to Samac, and 30 men from Serbia went with them as
11 reinforcement. I was with these volunteers, as was Aleksandar Vukovic,
12 who was killed, and we headed for Samac as volunteers. We went for
13 patriotic reasons to help the Serbian people in the fight."
14 As can you see, Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, himself describes
15 his involvement in the preparatory training for the takeover of Bosanski
17 I'll point you to another part of this document and then ask you
18 a few questions. At the next paragraph it says:
19 "The entire group arrived by helicopter at the village of Batkusa
20 on 11 April 1992. Following a decision of the Samac authorities and with
21 the approval of Lieutenant-Colonel Stevan Nikolic, the commander of the
22 17th Tactical Group, the entire group was attached to the army, and on 17
23 April 1992, between 50 and 60 of us entered Samac under the command of
24 the Army of Republika Srpska. This unit was composed of Radical Party
25 members from Serbia, people from Samac who were at the training centre,
1 and some others who were attached. After the liberation of Samac and the
2 clearing of the surrounding villages, there is confirmation for the
3 establishment of a special purposes battalion. This is what the
4 commander of the 17th Tactical Group, Stevan Nikolic, requested and
5 issued an order with a view to this. I was appointed commander of the
6 battalion, and after its establishment, this battalion went to break
7 through a corridor towards Brcko."
8 This report by Crni is in conformity with the evidence you have
9 given; isn't that right?
10 A. Yes, save for the fact that Crni did not break the corridor open
11 to Brcko. It was a minor-scale blockade in a village. Captain Brkic
12 with an armoured mechanized unit who broke the corridor open.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 My learned friend spent reading to the witness half a page worth
17 of text on something that he had already spoken to only to ask him if
18 this was correct. And there's at least ten facts contained in that
19 segment, in that portion, where he is supposed to answer whether it's
20 correct or not, and he had already spoken to certain issues and presented
21 views that differed from those contained there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: What is your objection, Mr. Petrovic?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the questions are --
24 confused the witness and they are designed to be misleading rather than
25 to shed light for Their Honours' benefit. Each and every part or fact
1 contained there should be put to the witness and asked to get his
2 confirmation on if it's correct or not, rather than to putting a question
3 that would relate to all these facts together.
4 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour --
5 JUDGE ORIE: What Ms. Marcus did is she put a piece of evidence
6 before the witness to give him an opportunity to comment on it or to
7 state that it is in conformity with his own evidence, and that's exactly
8 what the witness did. He said this is all conform my testimony, apart
9 from one point, and then he referred to something which is not in the
10 statement - that is that the breakthrough to Brcko, because the part read
11 to him was only about whether they went to do that, not that they did
13 The objection is denied.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your
16 permission. I'm sorry to interrupt. Five minutes ago the witness said
17 that he knew nothing --
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Please forgive
19 me. If Mr. Petrovic would like to put different aspects of this to the
20 witness on re-examination, he's perfectly entitled to do so. But to go
21 back now and basically do a re-examination in the middle of the
22 cross-examination, Your Honours, I feel is inappropriate.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And certainly not in the form that you start
24 discussing the evidence. If you have any further questions for the
25 witness, you can put them in re-examination, Mr. Petrovic, and you are
1 fully entitled to challenge whatever the witness said in
3 Please proceed.
4 MS. MARCUS:
5 Q. Mr. Djukic, Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, was arrested, and he
6 spent about ten days in detention according to the evidence in this case.
7 Were you informed of Crni's arrest?
8 A. Yes. But I had no part in it.
9 MS. MARCUS: And Your Honours, that reference was to P1417 and
11 Q. Do you know why Crni was arrested?
12 A. Because of wilful behaviour and the attempt to break the corridor
13 open at Crkvine.
14 MS. MARCUS: May I have please P1416, page 3 in English and page
15 4 in B/C/S. P1416.
16 Q. What you see coming up on the screen in front of you, Mr. Djukic,
17 is an RS MUP Bijeljina information report on the situation in Bosanski
18 Samac. The report is dated the 19th of November, 1992.
19 As you can see here in the middle of this page, it says that
20 after Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, was arrested, the Bosanski Samac
21 War Presidency went to the MUP of Serbia with a written request to
22 redeploy Crni and his group to the area where combat operations were
23 taking place.
24 Were you aware of these efforts to request the Serbian MUP to
25 have Crni released from prison and brought back to Bosanski Samac?
1 Yes or no, please, sir.
2 A. Kindly understand my position. I had an order where, after my
3 wounding, I had to rejoin the corps on the 30th of November. I know of
4 this event only from what I heard from the officers visiting me in Banja,
5 where I was undergoing treatment. So I kindly ask you not to ask me
6 about this. Whatever has to do with Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, boils down
7 to what I heard from him, that he had arrived from Krajina. And his CV
8 before the arrival in Zabari on the 12th of April is something that I
9 know nothing of, and that's why I didn't give any answers to that.
10 I have no remarks to make on what you've presented here to me
11 because I knew nothing of Djordjevic until I met him; that's to say,
12 before April of 1992, before that part of his life, I knew nothing what
13 was going on there. I knew that there was some misconduct on his part.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, the question simply was whether you were
15 aware of efforts to request the Serbian MUP to have Crni released from
16 prison and brought back to, as the original text says, to -- to the area
17 where combat operations were taking place.
18 Now, I do understand. You say, "I know of this event only from
19 what I heard from the officers visiting me in Banja," where you were
20 undergoing treatment. Do I then understand that you say you knew of
21 these efforts to request the Serbian MUP to have Crni released only
22 because those who came to visit you told you about it and that you have
23 no direct knowledge of that? Is that your testimony?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to tell you that there was
25 a publication that I made in a manual. And as for the goal of my
1 testimony here, I correctly understood the brochure on page 4.
2 Thirdly, nobody could have gone through to the MUP of Serbia save
3 through private channels to ensure the release of Crni, because it was
4 not within the jurisdiction of the Serbian MUP to have or make sure that
5 somebody who was arrested in this way be released.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What I'd like to hear from you is an answer to the
7 question, not what could have happened or could not have happened. Do
8 you have any knowledge of an effort to request the MUP that Crni be
9 released and sent back to the area of combat?
10 Do you have any knowledge, first. Do you have any personal
11 knowledge of it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just say that I'm testifying
13 about what I heard, saw, and what I know, which is a rule that you apply
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, do you have any personal knowledge of such an
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear by visitors of such an effort being
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, please proceed.
24 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Can I please have P1417 again, not to be broadcast, and could I
1 have page 3 in English and page 4 in B/C/S.
2 Q. Mr. Djukic, this is back to Crni's statement.
3 As can you see here, he says:
4 "My arrest followed soon after, and I spent about -- around ten
5 days in detention. After my release, Colonel Petar Salapura told me that
6 I had not been arrested but had been put away in a safe place because of
7 an assassination that had been planned against me and offered me to stay
8 in the fight. I did not agree to this, and I went to Yugoslavia to put
9 my thoughts together and come to terms with everything.
10 "While I was at home, the Samac municipality War Staff sent
11 various memos and made phone calls, as did Colonel Salapura and
12 Colonel Novica Simic, via the Serbian state security, requesting my
13 return to Bosnia, with as many men as possible and one special unit. I
14 agreed and arrived in Samac at the beginning of October."
15 Now, Mr. Djukic, I am aware that you were injured at this time.
16 We are aware of that. I'd like to know, did you ever learn of
17 Jovica Stanisic's direct involvement, the Serbian SDB's direct
18 involvement, in the release of Crni?
19 A. Petar Salapura is my chief. He was Tolimir's deputy in the main
20 security administration of the Army of Republika Srpska and would
21 never -- he would never stoop so low as to ask -- as to ask Crni to help
22 his army.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure about the last part
24 of the answer.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last part of your answer.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Petar Salapura is my boss, and he
2 got engaged to find a flat for me in order that I should be able to stay
3 in the army. He was a top-notch officer and later a general, and he
4 would never ask a citizen such as Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, to help him.
5 Again, it would be down to the civilian structures of Bosanski Samac,
6 Blagoje, Simic, and others.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I now invite you to answer the question. The
8 question was whether you ever learned about a direct involvement of
9 Mr. Stanisic in the release of Crni.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know who Jovica Stanisic
11 was at the time, at all.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is you did never learn about his
14 Then the --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- next question was whether you learned anything
17 about the Serbian SDB's direct involvement in the release of Crni. Did
18 you ever learn about that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that no one, whether you trust him or
21 not, ever told you about such a thing, and you have no other knowledge
22 about it. Is that correctly understood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correctly understood.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
25 Or I am looking at the clock. Could I, before we continue,
1 Ms. Marcus, in terms of time, of course, the Chamber has to consider
2 whether or not to extend the session. Could you give us a further
4 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I would say two and a half hours, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need, Mr. Petrovic? As
6 matters stand now.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at this time, 15
8 minutes at the most.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes, you said.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
12 MR. JORDASH: Five minutes, at the moment. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes.
14 Now, 15 plus 5 is 20. Two and a half hours is two sessions of 75
15 minutes. Therefore, if everyone would be very disciplined, and if no one
16 bothers me during the break with matters which causes delay in returning
17 to this courtroom, and we'll try to avoid that, that two sessions for
18 you, and then 20 minutes would still stay within a last session of one
19 hour and five minutes, instead of 75.
20 If the parties could commit themselves to that, then the Chamber
21 will refrain from organising a session in the second half of the
22 afternoon, or at least to explore the possibility for such a session.
23 I'm looking at all of you. No one seems to jump up and to say,
24 Please explore a further session in the second half of the afternoon.
25 Then we'll proceed that way. And we'll resume at a quarter to
1 11.00 sharp.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, I got the impression that you received
5 the results of the measurement of your blood pressure and that I take it
6 from your presence here that it's not prohibitive from -- for continuing;
7 is that correct?
8 We don't need to have the results in -- in numbers --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no. The pulse is 96,
10 blood pressure is good. I have 34 more units until it becomes critical.
11 I have taken a beta blocker, so there is no need to slow down proceedings
12 or speed them up on my account.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We will leave the pace to Ms. Marcus.
14 Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.
15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 I'm going to ask the Court Officer to show two different
17 documents on the left and right of the screen, both the B/C/S versions.
18 We've spoken about it, and I understand it is technically possible, and
19 please not to broadcast them.
20 On one side, could we have P1417, B/C/S page 6. And on the other
21 side P179, B/C/S page 17.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be broadcast.
23 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Perhaps I have the wrong page for P1417. It was supposed to be
25 the signature page. Ah okay. Thank you.
1 Q. Yes, so, Mr. Djukic, you what you see before you on the left side
2 is the statement by Crni that we were looking at before. And on the
3 right side, you see Crni's autobiography which is from his Serbian DB
4 file. That is dated the 25th of February, 1992.
5 Can I draw -- that is this page, this page in that file is of
6 that date. Can I draw your attention to the last line of this paragraph,
7 which states:
8 "I have been on the front since 20th September 1991 and in this
9 unit since 5th October 1991."
10 As you can see by the header, the unit to which he refers is a
11 special purpose unit of the Serbian MUP and the location was Lezimir.
12 Mr. Djukic, isn't it a fact that you were just simply not aware
13 of Crni's membership in the special purposes unit of the Serbian MUP by
14 the time you encountered him in Bosanski Samac?
15 MR. JORDASH: I do object to that question. It's not designed to
16 elicit a fact. The witness isn't away. The reason why he's not aware is
17 not going to be revealed by that question. This has more of the
18 hallmarks of a closing speech designed to show Your Honours the evidence
19 and remind Your Honours of the evidence rather than elicit it from the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Ms. Marcus, is there any need to confirm at this moment that the
23 witness or with these documents to seek further confirmation that the
24 witness is not aware of -- of -- well, to say the -- the role and the
25 links of Crni with the -- with the -- with the Serbian MUP?
1 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have to say, you know, the Defence
2 sometimes says we put our case and sometimes says we don't. I'm putting
3 this to the witness. I'm asking him if he has knowledge of it. In my
4 view, Your Honour, respectfully, I think this is perfectly appropriate
5 for cross-examination, and the witness can see it and see whether --
6 whether -- confirm that he didn't know anything about it. That's our
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think, as a matter of fact, that's not the
9 core of the objection by Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash says you are not --
10 what you are doing is to rub in the evidence which you have presented.
11 Now, at the same time, Mr. Jordash, the question, to the extent
12 it seeks to explore whether the witness knows anything or whether he
13 still doesn't know anything when looking at these documents is, of
14 course, in itself not inappropriate.
15 But let's keep it short.
16 Having looked at this, Witness, Mr. Djukic, do you know anything
17 about this, or do you just have no knowledge about the links of Crni with
18 the Republic of Serbia's MUP?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, the question is
20 leading, because it is being suggested that I could know something about
21 it. How would I be able to know it?
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you know something about it, please tell us.
23 Don't comment on the questioning. If the question is irregular, either
24 the Chamber or the Defence will respond to that. Please, I do understand
25 you say, How could I know? I understand that [overlapping speakers].
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that answer to be that you
3 have no knowledge.
5 Then let's move on Ms. Marcus. By the way, you dated the
6 autobiographic note as the 25th of February, where for me it is the 23rd.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. MARCUS: Yes, I see. I apologise, Your Honour.
9 Could I then just refer the Chamber to page 1 of P179 which is
10 the request for an operative check of Crni by Mr. Stanisic.
11 I'm done with these documents. Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Djukic, before I continue, the document that you offered us
13 to look at, we would indeed like to look at that document when you have a
14 chance. Perhaps maybe with the Chamber's leave, you could hand it to us
15 through the court usher.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djukic, are you willing to give the document,
17 you'd like one of the parties --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which document are you referring
20 JUDGE ORIE: The one you said earlier you would like, I think the
21 Defence, to have that admitted into evidence. If you give it to the
22 usher, the Prosecution will consider to use it. And if you provide a
23 copy -- or the original.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
25 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 Q. Now, there's been evidence in this case that in December of
2 1992 - that, I believe, is just after your release, first time, from the
3 hospital. There was a report prepared by the command of the 2nd Posavina
4 Brigade, including some of those individuals whom you identified earlier,
5 including Beronja, Josic, and Maksimovic. And this is a report --
6 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours it's P1418.
7 Q. -- about the -- about what they call a legal elite unit of
8 Serbian commandos, involving Crni, Debeli, and Lugar. And the report
9 says that their presence in Samac had been legalised through official
10 government organs at both the Samac level and the level of the government
11 of Serbia.
12 Now, my question to you is: In your position in the JNA at the
13 time -- in the VRS I should say. At the time, had you not been injured,
14 would you have distanced yourself from Crni, Debeli, and Lugar, as your
15 colleagues did, in fact, would you have distanced yourself, or would you
16 have continued to assert that Crni, Debeli, Lugar were operating under
17 the unique authority of the JNA and then the VRS in the Bosanski Samac
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness was not
21 showed a document which has no less than ten pages. But, rather, only a
22 small portion of it and is invited to comment on what he would have done
23 if he were -- if he had been in the shoes of some other individuals and
24 that -- we're talking about document 1418. I invite my learned friend to
25 allow the witness to have a look at the document and then put the
1 question to him. Otherwise, it is not reasonable.
2 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I will be very happy to give the
3 witness a copy of this and to let him read it perhaps over the next
4 break. It is a long one. I was trying to save time. The main point of
5 my question was that there has been evidence that his colleagues
6 distanced themselves, the evidence is in P1418, and I'm asking him
7 whether he would have distanced himself from the activities of Crni,
8 Lugar, and Debeli. I think that's a perfectly legitimate question, but
9 of course I'm very happy to share the document with the witness and see
10 if he would like to add anything later.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I speed things up?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jovan Erletic and Milan Miletic
15 have signed the document.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Wait a second, please.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber considers that the question can be put
19 to the witness, that the witness can answer the question, but that the
20 witness should be given an opportunity to read the document in its
21 entirety during the next break. And if that causes him to complete or
22 supplement his answer, he'll have an opportunity to do so, but only about
23 the question and not a general comment on the document.
24 So could you please -- the question was whether -- and Ms. Marcus
25 is relying on the evidence which is known to her and which she gave you a
1 very small part, whether you would have distanced yourself from the
2 activities of Crni, Debeli, and Lugar if you would have had the
3 information that was put to you by Ms. Marcus.
4 Could you please answer the question?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had the order whereby I was
6 deployed as the security organ in the 2nd Bosnia Brigade where
7 Dragan Djordjevic, Crni, through Salapura -- I had to leave Posavina
8 because of Crni and Djordjevic and was appointed as officer in the corps.
9 I distanced myself from them as soon as I could and as far as I could.
10 And I am familiar with this document. I recognised it by its cover page.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, a copy will be given to you, if you
12 want to refresh your memory on that document. We are not seeking your
13 comment on the document but just whether there's anything in that
14 document which would cause you to -- to amend your answer.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could the Court Officer
17 please call up 65 ter 5603.1; e-court page 256 in English, and page 264
18 in the original handwritten version. That is, ERN J000-4408. The bottom
19 of the page, please, in both languages.
20 Q. Mr. Djukic, what I'm showing now is a page from the diary of
21 Ratko Mladic. This particular entry records a meeting which Mladic held
22 with the leadership of the Samac municipality on the 7th of December,
23 1992. As can you see here, Mladic recorded what Stevan Todorovic said:
24 "Sent 18 men to Ilok for training and on 18 April 1992, they were
25 transferred in three" --
1 MS. MARCUS: Could I please have the next page in both languages.
2 Q. "... three helicopters together with 30 volunteers from
3 Kragujevac; among them, two members of the Serbian MUP,
4 Dragan Djordjevic, aka Crni, and Aleksandar Vukovic. A special battalion
5 was later formed under the command of Crni and it was involved in
6 offensive operations."
7 Mr. Djukic, I'd like to you clearly understand the Prosecution
8 position. Our position is that the accused Jovica Stanisic and
9 Franko Simatovic, through the Serbian DB, trained and armed local Serbs
10 at the Ilok, Pajzos and Lezimir training camps. Simatovic then
11 personally ordered this Red Beret unit to attack Bosanski Samac where
12 they murdered, forcibly transferred, deported, and otherwise persecuted
13 the municipality's non-Serb population in co-ordination with other Serb
14 forces, such as the JNA and the local TO.
15 Now, you are obviously a very respected official, both within the
16 organs you worked for and -- as well as among internationals who worked
17 with you in the region. Can you accept the fact that this connection
18 between the Serbian DB and the events in Bosanski Samac were simply
19 hidden from you?
20 A. I learned at some point in time of the crimes committed by Lugar
21 but not on the 7th of May, when he committed them in Crkvine. And it is
22 quite understandable that as a lawyer I cannot condone this act. No one
23 reasonable could do that. But I couldn't know who it was who sent him or
24 who trained that unit.
25 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with this document.
1 Mr. Djukic, I'd like to move onto a different subject now.
2 There has been evidence in this case that about four to six
3 months before the war began, the war in Bosnia, that is, a group of
4 instructors under Captain Dragan arrived in Brcko and formed a special
5 unit which, according to the Brcko War Presidency, made significant
6 contributions to combat operations in Brcko.
7 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, that is from P1001, D202, and D83.
8 Q. This group of instructors included Rade and Bozo Bozic,
9 Simo Radovanovic, and Sasa Vukojevic and operating in co-ordination with
10 them were Goran Petkovic, Zivojin Jovanovic, Ljubisa Savic, Mirko
11 Blagojevic, and Arkan's Men.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, D83.
13 Q. Now, according to this evidence: During the Brcko takeover,
14 Captain Dragan's instructors and Goran Petkovic and Zivojin Jovanovic,
15 aka Crnogorac, used a self-propelled gun and anti-aircraft machine-guns
16 to storm the Brcko SJB. They held the municipal president and the Chief
17 of Staff of the 1st Posavina Brigade hostage, threatening to liquidate
18 them unless three of their member who had been arrested were released
19 from prison.
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, P3017.
21 Q. Were you aware of the information that I've just put to you?
22 A. No. I am aware from the priest Slavko Maksimovic, as a source,
23 who himself committed crimes, because he actually tried to convert
24 Muslims to the Orthodox faith. And as I've already said about
25 Zika Jovanovic, Crnogorac, I've already said that I saw him, that he was
1 present in Brcko, and I do not contest their acts and I do feel that
2 justice should be meted out to them because there was a great crime
3 committed there.
4 Now --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
6 portion of his answer.
7 MS. MARCUS:
8 Q. Mr. Djukic, the interpreters didn't catch the last part of your
9 answer. Could you just repeat the very last part.
10 A. There was no shelling or rocket attacks on the building of the
11 Secretariat of the Interior in Brcko. It stands unchanged to this day
12 where it was 50 years ago. And I omitted -- I also said there may have
13 been threats.
14 Q. Now according to this evidence that I've just put to you, certain
15 formations in the Brcko area, including the Serbian Volunteer Guard,
16 Captain Dragan's Red Berets, and Zika Crnogorac were directed to those
17 areas by the Serbian DB.
18 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, P3017.
19 Q. Would you like to comment on that briefly, Mr. Djukic.
20 A. Other than the fact that I do not know who sent them, and the
21 fact that based on my knowledge, which is extensive, I never saw any
22 effects as a result of any actions by Captain Dragan and his forces. The
23 main role was played by Dragan Savic, Mauzer.
24 Q. Were you aware of an individual named Zeljko Torbica in relation
25 to the Brcko corridor operation?
1 A. Never heard of him.
2 Q. Now Mr. Simatovic spoke of the strategic importance of the
3 Posavina corridor himself at an award ceremony at the Kula camp after the
4 war. I'm going to ask Mr. Laugel to play a very brief clip. This is in
5 evidence as P61. The clip is from 15 minutes and 18 seconds to 16
6 minutes and 41 seconds.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "[VOICEOVER]: In May 1991 an air-helicopter squadron was formed
9 which transported tonnes of special shipments, equipment, troops and
10 machinery from the improvised airfields of Medeno Polje, Petrovac,
11 Velika Popina, Srb, and Udbina and carried out numerous complex tasks
12 while war operations were ongoing.
13 "In September 1991 a part of the unit was transferred to Serbia,
14 where its reconstruction was conducted and high-quality professional
15 training organised. These two units were involved in operations in
16 Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem. Twenty six training camps
17 for special police units of Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian
18 Krajina were also formed in that period. In the Republic of Serbian
19 Krajina in Golubic, Dinara, Obrovac, Gracac, Plitvice, Sumarice,
20 Petrova Gora, Licki Osik, Benkovac, Lezimir, Ilok, and Vukovar, and in
21 RSK in Banja Luka, Doboj, Samac, Brcko, Bijeljina, Trebinje, Visegrad,
22 Ozren, and Mrkonjic Grad.
23 "Units of Serbian joint operations in Eastern Slavonia, the
24 corridor at Brcko, in the Drina, Sarajevo, and Maglaj operations. In
25 western Bosnia, the unit was the backbone of Fikret Abdic's army with
1 around 1500 [as interpreted] soldiers who freed most of Cazin Krajina."
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Djukic, did you have a -- Mr. Djukic, you have testified that
4 you were not aware of the relationship between the Serbian DB and events
5 in Bosanski Samac. Isn't it a fact you were also not aware of the
6 Serbian DB's involvement in the Brcko operations?
7 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, I don't want to waste time with unnecessary
8 objections, but this is not designed to elicit fact. It's designed to
9 continuously play evidence and show evidence to Your Honours and to the
10 witness and then say -- ask the witness questions which do not add
11 anything to what we've already seen.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, to establish that the witness doesn't
13 know something, then it's -- you don't have to show all the evidence,
14 although it may be to some extent be triggered to -- by the Stanisic
15 Defence now and then that we should be clear to the witness. But I think
16 that, under the present circumstances, if you seek confirmation of the
17 lack of knowledge of the witness, it could be done in -- without showing
18 all of that evidence to him. You could have summarised what was said in
19 two or three lines without showing the video.
20 MS. MARCUS: Understood, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MS. MARCUS: Could the witness just answer that question,
23 Your Honour, about --
24 Q. My question was: Isn't it a fact that you were also not aware of
25 the Serbian DB's involvement in the Brcko corridor operations?
1 A. It's correct. I didn't know about that.
2 But I have to say that this video-clip is very familiar, and it
3 is my view that these officers here are just bragging before
4 President Milosevic. I saw this videotape --
5 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about your knowledge, not to comment
6 on the video. Although that, of course, Ms. Marcus, is a risk if you --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, but I was shown this
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you are not invited to comment on it but,
10 rather, to answer the question that was put to you.
11 Ms. Marcus, that's, of course, also one of the risks by showing
12 the evidence to the witness.
13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I have no problem with the witness's
14 comments. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it's -- they seem not to be very relevant
16 at this moment, and -- and they take time.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MARCUS:
19 Q. Now there's been evidence in this case --
20 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, P1075.
21 Q. -- that from the beginning of the war in 1991, a number of
22 paramilitary units were engaged in the territory of the RSK and the RS.
23 They were and remained in direct contact with the republican state
24 security and the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia or they
25 were engaged under the guise of special units of the republican state
1 security or the Ministry of Interior.
2 Mr. Djukic, this refers, in particular -- this particular piece
3 of evidence refers to Arkan's Men, Vaso Mijovic's men, and the Red Berets
4 under the command of Zika Ivanovic, also known as Crnogorac, and it also
5 refers to the paramilitary unit of Slobodan Medic, aka Boca. Now you've
6 given evidence about Zika Ivanovic and also about Slobodan Medic. This
7 evidence, as well as other evidence in the case, describes criminal
8 activities carried out by Zika Crnogorac. Now what you told us about
9 Zika Crnogorac was that in your view he was involved in investigating and
10 combatting criminal activity.
11 Isn't it a fact that Zika Crnogorac was directly involved in just
12 the criminal activity that you described him cracking down on?
13 A. I said that the detention of some people that he ordered were
14 unlawful. And Zika Crnogorac currently lives in the United States of
15 America where he had sought asylum.
16 MR. FARR: Could the Court Officer --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I would just appreciate if in this
19 Exhibit P1075, if we could be shown this exhibit to see where it talks
20 about the crimes committed by Zika Crnogorac because I may have not seen
21 it. Perhaps my learned friend can show it to us.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Have you a page indication for Mr. Petrovic?
23 MS. MARCUS: Page 2 in English, page 2 in B/C/S, Your Honours. I
24 think Mr. Petrovic is free to look at it and find those parts and use
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He'll find it.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am looking at it,
3 but I can't see any facts about any crimes. That's exactly what I'm
4 looking at.
5 MS. MARCUS: It says:
6 "Some of the more famous individuals will be removed and will
7 work from behind the scenes: Rajo Bozovic, Zika Crnogorac,
8 Zvezdan Jovanovic, Vasilije Mijovic, and so on. Our sources worn that in
9 these units there are professional killers, terrorists, Legionnaires,
10 hardened criminals, and that they are ready to carry out the most callous
11 terrorist operations for money."
12 There are other parts about collecting debts, robbery, smuggling,
13 the liquidation of undesirables. The whole report is basically about the
14 activities of Zika Crnogorac and other units that are described in the
15 report, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check that. Meanwhile, we -- what you just
17 read is not a direct indication of Zika Crnogorac committing crimes, but
18 from what you --
19 MS. MARCUS: Not him alone, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: From what you read. From what you read.
21 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But I will check in P1075.
23 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Could the Court Officer
24 please call up P1077.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be broadcast.
1 MS. MARCUS: Not to be broadcast, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now what you see before you is a VJ security organ report dated
3 18th November, 1992. I realise that this was just about at the time when
4 you were dealing with your injury. Could I give you a minute to look
5 through the document, and I will ask you just a couple of questions about
6 Zika Crnogorac.
7 A. I cannot read it. It is a bit smudged. The ends are smudged. I
8 still can't read.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You still cannot, even if it would be further
10 enlarged, which is I think still possible.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can read it.
12 MS. MARCUS:
13 Q. As you can see, Mr. Djukic, this document indicates that Arkan
14 and Zvezdan Jovanovic, Zika Crnogorac are "registered criminals."
15 Involved in criminal activity of "big proportions." It says they are
16 "closely connected with the top leaders of the MUP of Serbia," including
17 Stanisic and Kostic and the government of the SBWS, Hadzic, Kojic, and
19 Now, you testified that Zika Crnogorac came to the "secretariat,
20 asking do look at the files of more expensive luxury cars and some other
21 items which had been illegally taken from well-off Muslim houses."
22 Isn't it a fact that he was coming to take those items for
23 himself and his associates, rather than to investigate those who had
24 taken them?
25 A. I have answer briefly. Zika Crnogorac when he saw me said that
1 everything that he had seized, including gold, he took personally to
2 Pale, to Karadzic.
3 Q. I'm finished with this document. Thank you.
4 Now you have testified about your participation in the arrest of
5 certain individuals in the area of Ilok, beginning in 1994.
6 MS. MARCUS: That's page 17971.
7 Q. Isn't it a fact that after the Red Berets left Ilok to
8 participate in combat operations in the area of the Posavina corridor,
9 only a few Red Berets remained in Ilok, headed by Ilija Vuckovic, aka
10 Rambo, to guard Pajzos.
11 A simple yes or no will do. I understand the issues you raised
12 yesterday, and we will proceed to private session, if need be. But a
13 simple yes or no at this point will suffice.
14 A. It's not necessary. I'm not afraid of criminals.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow, again we have a
18 complex question that implies two questions; the first part and the
19 second part. There is an implication here that the witness knows that
20 Red Berets had left Ilok for the corridor. I don't know what the
21 foundation for that question is.
22 First of all, is the witness aware of that, and then he should be
23 asked whether he knew what was going on; otherwise, we are at a risk of
24 receiving an answer to the second portion of the question, and then later
25 on when we look back at it, we might -- it might be implied that he also
1 answered to the first part of the question as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Petrovic, you should have refrained from
3 commenting on the question in the way you did.
4 But Ms. Marcus is invited to split up the question.
5 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. What I'd like to just say in
6 response is that I've put a number of series of facts to the witness, and
7 I think the witness has demonstrated clearly his ability to pick out
8 which parts he knows, which parts doesn't, and to comment on those
9 different parts. In this particular instance, I'm asking him some
10 preliminary questions, and then I will put some -- put a document to him.
11 But, Your Honour, I'm -- honestly, I think there is nothing wrong with
12 the facts that I put to him, asking him, Isn't it a fact. He can say
13 whether he knows or doesn't know.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then if you give three facts then there is
15 a risk that the witness may not have dealt with all three of them. That
16 is what often happened.
17 So would you please put it -- I think the -- for example whether
18 Red Berets remained, whether they were headed by. I mean, that could be
19 easily misunderstood. Would you please split up the question and make it
20 separate items.
21 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour, of course.
22 Q. Mr. Djukic, isn't it a fact that after the Red Berets left Ilok
23 to participate in combat operations, a few remained behind in Ilok?
24 A. That's not true, nor is it possible. You didn't allow me
25 yesterday to explain. In Ilok there was an UNPROFOR Russian battalion,
1 the peacekeeping forces, that would expelled such -- driven away such
2 units immediately, even had we not wanted to -- wanted them to.
3 Q. So you --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please not tell us what was possible
5 or was not possible, but would you please tell us about facts.
6 Is it true or not true that, when the Red Berets left Ilok that a
7 few remained behind? I'm not talking about units, I'm not talking about
8 who should have spotted them. Is that true or not; or do you not know?
9 Could you answer the question.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the question? I believe
11 the problem here is that I'm not allowed to explain anything. I mean, in
12 this way, nothing will be accomplished.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could leave that to the parties and to the
15 The question was whether, when the Red Berets left Ilok, whether
16 a few of them remained behind. Whether that's true, whether that's not
17 true, or whether you do not know.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be precise, as of 15th March,
19 1993, there were no Red Berets present in Ilok. Before that point, I
20 don't know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you don't know whether when they left
22 whether anyone remained behind because you say, I arrived at a time where
23 they had left, if they have ever been there already.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 May I have just one brief moment, sir. Could the Court Officer
2 please call up P3042 but not to broadcast it to the public.
3 Q. Mr. Djukic, this is a report by the JATD of the Serbian SDB from
4 the 1st of February 1994. If relates to the activities in Ilok in the
5 period from 15 to 30th of January 1994.
6 MS. MARCUS: May I please have page two in English and page 16 in
8 Q. What it says on the page in front of us is that:
9 "In order to paint a more detailed picture of the Red Berets'
10 actions in this area, we have to go back to the 1992 period; namely,
11 after the opening of the corridor. The Republic of Serbia MUP unit that
12 was in this area was practically disbanded. Only a small number
13 remained, headed by Ilija Vuckovic, aka Rambo, to guard the Pajzos and
14 Bela Kuca. The group styled itself in the Red Berets image, which term
15 was subsequently used in an increasingly negative context. In the course
16 of 1992, almost all its members had wilfully abandoned the unit or were
17 expelled from it due to various reasons. A majority of them found
18 sanctuary in Ilok and continued doing dirty jobs, using the uniform and
19 insignia of the Red Berets."
20 A bit further down it says:
21 "Apart from two registered cases of unauthorised hunting,
22 objectively speaking, some members of our unit can be criticised for
23 improper and arrogant behaviour and inappropriate use of Republic of
24 Serbia MUP registered vehicles, but this is not subject to criminal or
25 misdemeanour prosecution."
1 MS. MARCUS: Can I please request private session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
3 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 Mr. Djukic, often you say I'll stick to your rules, I'll not
4 explain further. If the explanation would change the core of your
5 answer, then, of course, you're supposed to do that because you are
6 supposed to give the whole truth.
7 Now, we are not inviting you to comment on things you are not
8 asked, but if the answer by a yes or a no would be misleading, then, of
9 course, you're invited to add as much as to create the right picture.
10 Not a full understanding of situation. I'll just give you one example.
11 I asked you about -- where you said that Zika had investigated
12 the stolen vehicles, or that he -- he came and wanted to see the files.
13 Then I asked you what was the purpose? Was that to investigate? And
14 then you said -- you said that he wanted to investigate that. I asked
15 what it then resulted in. You said certain investigations were
16 conducted. Cases were processed so that those files or cases would
17 appear before the International Tribunal. Well, then I asked you so the
18 purpose was to investigate and to prosecute those who had stolen those
19 vehicles. And you confirmed that that was your answer.
20 Now, today you told us that he took the cars and brought them to
21 Karadzic, which is, of course, not the usual way of investigating and
22 prosecuting because in that context there's no place for taking the
23 seized vehicles to the -- to the president of -- of a republic.
24 So, therefore, at that moment, where you felt free to tell us
25 about an appointment you had, et cetera, et cetera. You wanted to add
1 quite a lot of things there and I didn't interrupt you. But there you
2 should have said, The purpose was to investigate; however, in reality, he
3 took the seized cars and brought them to Pale.
4 That is what I would have expected you to do because your answer:
5 Investigation, prosecution, that, of course, is only half of the picture,
6 because, in that picture, it doesn't fit that you take the cars and bring
7 them to Pale.
8 So, therefore, that was something we would have expected you to
9 add, not whether you had an appointment next week with someone else to
10 talk about these kind of things.
11 May that be clear that as long as what you'd like to add is there
12 to give the right picture where your answer did not give a right picture,
13 then you're not only allowed but even under an obligation to do that.
14 You may proceed, Ms. Marcus.
15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Djukic, Jovan Kujundzic was appointed command in Pajzos on
17 the 11th of June, 1992. Were you aware of that?
18 A. When it comes to 1992 and Ilok, please do not put questions to
19 me. It is futile because it's already well-known that I arrived in the
20 area on 15th of March, 1993.
21 Q. Mr. Djukic, were you aware that there were many individuals who
22 were affiliated with the Serbian MUP but also held ID cards of the
23 Krajina MUP?
24 A. I did not come across an official who would have held an ID of
25 both the RSK MUP and the Serbian MUP. Admittedly,
1 Mladic [as interpreted] would give away lightly to drivers or whomever
2 the official IDs and almost everyone was in possession of one such ID
4 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up P489. In the
5 meantime, can I just refer the Chamber to P3017 for the prior question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Could I -- at the same time, could I seek clarification of your
8 last answer. You said:
9 "Admittedly, Mladic would give away lightly to drivers or
10 whomever the official IDs ..."
11 Official IDs of what?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry that you
13 misunderstood. That it had to with Martic. Martic. Mladic was an
14 honest officer until 1992, who would not have given anything lightly to
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Martic.
17 Were you then referring to giving Krajina MUP IDs given by Martic
18 to drivers and the other persons you mentioned?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He would give some of those
20 as a souvenir, even.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. What you see in front of you is a list of Serbian MUP personnel
24 who have ID cards of the Krajina MUP. At the top of the list you see
25 Zika Crnogorac. And at number 42 you see Jovan Kujundzic whom I
1 mentioned earlier.
2 Now our position is that the men who remained in Ilok Pajzos,
3 including Jovan Kujundzic and Ilija Vuckovic, were in fact part of the
4 Serbian DB. The fact that they signed documents on JPN Krajina
5 letterhead, in our view, does not change the fact that they were in fact
6 JPN Serbia members.
7 Would you like to comment on that?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, my
10 learned friend mischaracterised the evidence. She said what you see here
11 is a list of the Serbian MUP personnel. Could my learned friend show
12 where it says in the document that this is a list of the Serbian MUP
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that Ms. Marcus put the OTP interpretation
15 of this list, a list apparently containing what she considers to be
16 members of the MUP.
17 Now, apart from summarising the document, it has been emphasised
18 again and again that the Prosecution should put to the witness what their
19 case is in this respect. Perhaps, Ms. Marcus, it would have been better
20 to say that what you see in front of you is a list containing names of
21 Serbian MUP personnel.
22 So it's not said by Ms. Marcus, at least I take it that you did
23 not intend to say, that all of these are MUP of Serbia members.
24 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, at this moment I was just referring to
25 the two that I'm mentioning and I'm going to show additional evidence for
1 that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were invited to comment on the two
3 persons of which the Prosecution says they were MUP of the Republic of
4 Serbia employees appearing on this list, apparently having been given MUP
5 of the Krajina -- if you not mind that I finish my question. Appearing
6 on this list of people having IDs of the -- of the RSK MUP.
7 Please comment.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Firstly, I don't see the date.
9 Secondly, this is very important. The Serbian MUP contained
10 public and state security. Security service and state security -- that's
11 to say, public security and state security would be held accountable
12 separately. So we ought to know, first, under which branch these people
14 JUDGE ORIE: The issue raised by Ms. Marcus is what is the
15 explanation for Serbian MUP employees, irrespective of what branch, to be
16 issued with Krajina MUP IDs. That's the issue. It's Serbia against
17 Krajina; rather than state security, public security.
18 Any further comment on that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Krajina MUP would easily
20 give ID cards; whereas, the Serbian MUP never issued a colleague of mine
21 with an official ID card.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
23 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up P3038 and not
24 broadcast it to the public. P3038. And I'd like page 15 in English and
25 page 13 in B/C/S, please.
1 Q. Mr. Djukic, this is the DB, Serbian DB personnel file for Ilija
2 Vuckovic. As you can see on this document, Ilija Vuckovic was a member
3 of the reserve forces of the Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Interior,
4 from the 5th of May, 1991, to the 1st of November, 1992.
5 Now, our position is that both Ilija Vuckovic and Jovan Kujundzic
6 were carrying out their activities in Pajzos as official members of the
7 JPN of the Serbian MUP in spite of the fact that they may also have been
8 signing documents on JPN Krajina MUP letterhead.
9 Would you like to comment on that?
10 A. Yes. The document is valid. However, it is a bit odd. When I
11 brought him in and the court remanded him in custody in Beli Manastir, it
12 is a bit odd that Serbia failed to protect its member, if he, indeed, was
13 their member.
14 Q. Thank you. I'm done with that document.
15 Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about the man you
16 identified as your superior, Ilija Kojic. At page 18008 you said this
17 about Ilija Kojic:
18 "His role was totally clear. Kojic was an official, a public
19 official. He was a representative of the ministry before other competent
20 organs. He would approve all our contacts with the public media. He was
21 in charge of material and logistical security and in charge of other
22 duties, such as contacts with various assemblies, with the commands, and
24 Can you tell us, first, what you meant by material and logistical
25 security? As briefly as possible, please, sir.
1 A. What I meant to say was that Ilija Kojic was in terms of
2 logistics very much capable of providing us with vehicles, food, and the
3 rest. Unfortunately, we never received these items from the MUP of
5 Q. Now what did you mean when you said that Kojic was "in charge of
6 other duties, such as contacts with various assemblies, with the
7 commands, and similar"?
8 A. This applies to presidents of assemblies, because quite a few
9 assemblies were put together. For instance, in Tenja and Mirkovci there
10 was a great deal of arrogance exhibited on their part, and he negotiated
11 with them as well as with Loncar, because I told him that I was not in
12 contact with the Army of Krajina. Now when I saw these intercept, I felt
13 really in a way disappointed as an officer and a human being yesterday
15 Q. Sorry, can you clarify your last comment. You said, "When I saw
16 these intercepts I felt in a way disappointed as an officer and a human
17 being." Briefly, what -- what are you referring to?
18 A. Well, if they are accurate, then General Loncar lied to me, and
19 he should take his rightful place alongside the war crimes prosecutor.
20 Loncar is, who, as you will know, is very efficient and expeditious in
21 processing war crimes.
22 Q. At page 18009, you said of Mr. Kojic:
23 "He was, for all practical purposes, minister in the absence of
24 Minister Martic."
25 Is it fair to say that Mr. Kojic was the most powerful official
1 in the Ministry of Interior in the SBWS when Martic was not present?
2 A. As far as the district of Eastern Slavonia Baranja and Western
3 Srem is concerned, since he was the head of the TO for that district, he
4 was seriously wounded, barely escaped with his life, and he was highly
5 esteemed by the population there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We know that he was wounded and esteemed. But the
7 question was what power he had. And I take it that Ms. Marcus was not
8 focussing on the time when he was seriously wounded.
9 Was he, when he was in function, the second powerful person,
10 as -- when Mr. Martic wasn't there?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. What I knew of him at the
12 time, I would not have accepted him as a superior of mine, someone who
13 has secondary education.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was he the second as far as power is
15 concerned? Whether you like his education or not, it was not the
16 question. The question was whether he was the second, after Martic, if
17 it comes to power.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was number two.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. And Martic was not present most of the time in SBWS; correct?
22 A. Martic would come to Eastern Slavonia periodically, because, and
23 quite understandably so, he had to cover Krajina, which wasn't large in
24 itself, but between Borovo and Knin there's 650 kilometres, and it was
25 difficult to cover it all.
1 Q. At page 18049, Mr. Jordash asked the following question:
2 "In late 1994, early 1995, when these operations were ongoing,
3 did Martic ever charge his view about the Serbian DB? Did he suddenly
4 start to express trust in them, or was he always someone to regarded the
5 likes of Kojic and Kostic a problem?"
6 Your answer was:
7 "I really cannot understand that. They were close friends. They
8 spoke on a number of occasions. For instance, when I went to Ilok,
9 sometimes I would even sit at a different table. They would sit at
10 another table, which I didn't mind at all. From what I could observe
11 myself, they had a very good relationship mutually, and he even continued
12 this relation with Kojic when Dalmacija fell. Kojic offered all kinds of
13 assistance to him."
14 Then you were asked:
15 "To whom, sorry?"
16 And your answer was:
17 "To Martic."
18 Can you tell us what kind of assistance Kojic offered to Martic,
19 to your knowledge? Briefly, please, sir.
20 A. He offered that he should resettle with his family and that they
21 would ensure the basic provisions for his family and that if he needed a
22 job, he was ready to provide him with one.
23 Q. Is it correct that Ilija Kojic was your superior from the time
24 you arrived in SBWS in March 1993 through to the end of the war?
25 A. Yes. Through to the end of the war, with one remark:
1 Minister Martic would consult with me frequently, one on one. He even
2 asked me to advise him on whether he should run for the president. He
3 also asked me to use the personal form of address with him, to give him
4 the Tu, as it were, which I always refused.
5 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, unless I've lost track of time, if this
6 is the time for the break then this could be a good stopping point.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is the time for the break.
8 Before we take that break, however, Mr. Jordash, I announced that
9 we would consider either a late afternoon session, but we more or less
10 agreed that it should be possible to conclude the evidence in of this
11 witness in a 105 minutes' session. Of course, that goes beyond what the
12 doctors have advised. So I'd like to hear from you whether Mr. Stanisic
13 wants, then, to be absent, or whether he insists not to continue, which,
14 of course, is -- he is entitled to -- to be present at his trial.
15 So if that would cause any problem, then I'd like to know. By
16 the way, a later afternoon session would also be in -- not consistent
17 with the advice of the doctors, and, therefore if there's any problem
18 there I'd like to know so that we can adjust plans, if need be, to the
19 position of the Stanisic Defence.
20 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we hear from you immediately after the
23 MR. JORDASH: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even if it changes the dramatically plans, I
25 would even like to be informed during the break so that we can take
2 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I see that Mr. Stanisic apparently is ...
4 MR. JORDASH: We can continue, Your Honours, and Mr. Stanisic
5 would like to return to the UNDU, if he can, and he waives his right to
6 be present during the final parts of the trial.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Not only the final 30 minutes but already now? Is
8 that ...
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. JORDASH: Could I inform Your Honour, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, there's document I promised to show the
14 witness if -- during the break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it could be given to the witness by the
17 Something for you to read, Mr. Djukic, during the break.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Homework again.
19 MR. JORDASH: We could do an extended session with Mr. Stanisic
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll resume at 12.30 sharp.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, until quarter to 2.00, the time is
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Djukic at page 18027, you were asked whether you were aware
4 of any relationship between Ilija Kojic and the DB of Serbia. And you
6 "I don't, nor was I told, nor do you ask such things of your
8 I'd like to look at that in a little more detail.
9 MS. MARCUS: Can we please have P325 on the screen but not
10 broadcast it to the public. P325. And could I have, please, page 7 of
11 the English and page 11 in B/C/S.
12 Q. Sir, if you take a look at this document, you'll see that it has
13 the heading of the state security sector of the Republic of Serbia and
14 that it is dated 19th of March, 1993.
15 So it's the time of your arrival in the SBWS.
16 And now I'll read verbatim the portion following the word
17 "decree." It says:
18 "Ilija Kojic, employed at the Ministry of Interior, the
19 secretariat in Belgrade:
20 "Is deployed starting from 1 April 1993 to the working place
21 from Article 11, item 7, of the rule-book on systemisation of workplaces
22 of the sector of state security in the Ministry of Interior of the
23 Republic of Serbia.
24 "The title of the employee will be independent clerk."
25 And if we go to the bottom of the page in B/C/S and the middle of
1 the next page in English, we can see that the document is signed and
2 stamped by Jovica Stanisic as chief.
3 Sir, were you really not aware that Ilija Kojic was an employee
4 of the State Security Department of Serbia at the time that he was your
6 A. When I talked about contacts, I meant contacts in the operative
7 sense. It doesn't mean private contacts. Now if you're asking me
8 whether I knew that he was on the payroll of Serbia, I wouldn't know.
9 According to this decision, Ilija Kojic was a secret agent of the Serbian
10 MUP in Krajina.
11 Q. I'm sorry just in terms of your last answer, part of it you said,
12 "Now if you're asking me" -- this is what the transcript says. I just
13 want to correct the transcript or -- verify that it was correct.
14 You said:
15 "Now if you're asking me whether I was on the payroll of Serbia,
16 I wouldn't know."
17 Did you mean to say, "Now if you're asking me whether he was on
18 the payroll of Serbia..."? Is that what you meant to say?
19 A. No. Had I known - and we worked together, we risked our lives
20 together - had I known that he was on the Serbian payroll, whereas I was
21 on this miserable pay in Krajina, I wouldn't have worked with him
22 together. Now according to this decision, which is not usual, it would
23 appear that he infiltrated our ranks which was not uncommon in
24 intelligence circles, and he most certainly would not have told us about
25 it or anybody else because that would have caused a lot of discontent
1 among us. So, in other words, I think this was really not very fair of
3 Q. Thank you. I'm finished with that document.
4 Now you also testified about Rade Kostic. You mentioned that he
5 came with Martic to visit you when the shrapnel was removed to offer you
6 a position. And then you also said at page 18009 to 18010:
7 "We dealt with serious matters and Kostic was this charge of the
8 entire territory; whereas, Kojic was only in charge of Eastern Slavonia,
9 Baranja, and Western Srem."
10 The question then was:
11 "What do you mean Kostic was in charge of the entire territory?
12 Which territory are you including within that?"
13 And your answer was:
14 "The Republic of Serbian Krajina."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the
17 first portion of the question was misquoted. It says that Martic and
18 Kostic offered the witness something, and I don't think that's what the
19 witness said.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- you mean the quoted part which is ...
21 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honour, this part when it reads: "You
22 mentioned that he came with Martic to visit you when the shrapnel was
23 removed to offer you a position."
24 I believe that that part of the transcript was not put correctly
25 to the witness here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
2 Now, it seems to be -- by the way, it seems to be a marginal
3 aspect of and doesn't affect the question in any way. But, nevertheless,
4 I agree with you, Mr. Petrovic, that quotes -- reference to evidence
5 should be precise.
6 MS. MARCUS: Yes. Your Honour, yes. At page 1769 and 70 the
7 witness spoke about a visit he received from Martic and Kostic, and he
8 does say it's true that Martic was making the offer to him.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So that has now been corrected.
12 Then perhaps you repeat your question so that the witness can
13 answer it.
14 MS. MARCUS: Yes, should I repeat the quote that I put to
15 him from -- I hadn't asked the question yet. I was putting a quote.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then -- yes.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] There is no need to repeat the
18 quote. The problem was just in the introductory part.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on whether the witness still remembers.
20 That's the issue, and not whether you oppose, Mr. Petrovic.
21 Could you please resume, Ms. Marcus, in the way you deem fit.
22 MS. MARCUS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Djukic, do you remember the question I put to you? I quoted
24 to your statement that Kostic was in charge of the entire territory of
25 Republic of Serbian Krajina.
1 Now my question to you is: Did you ever have any indication that
2 Kostic, who was, as you say, in charge of the entire territory of the
3 RSK, was actually working for the DB of Serbia?
4 A. Unfortunately, already at the hospital, by just looking at him,
5 at his gestures and the faces he was making, I knew that he was against
6 my going there. He was very arrogant to me. He never had a coffee with
7 me. He would just come in and we would exchange greetings and then he
8 would say -- he always had this yellow bag with him, he would always rush
9 off somewhere. He would say he was in a hurry, and I always warned him
10 that he shouldn't really hurry so much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Why not answer the question, Mr. Djukic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was the question? Perhaps
13 I -- it slipped my mind. Sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Whether -- did you have any -- did you ever have any
15 indication that Kostic was actually working for the DB of Serbia?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I thought that it was
17 implicit from what I said that we were not very close, and I never talked
18 to him about that, nor did I have any indications other than the fact
19 that his wife worked somewhere in Belgrade.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. Can we please have P406. And could I
23 ask, please, for page 3 in B/C/S and page 5 in English.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown to the public.
25 MS. MARCUS:
1 Q. Sir, if we look at the heading on this document, we can see it is
2 dated --
3 MR. JORDASH: Sorry. If -- just -- perhaps I'm being overly
4 anticipatory, but if what my learned friend is going to do is again just
5 show -- the witness has said he doesn't know. Now my learned friend, it
6 looks as though she's going to show him what is a state security record,
7 and then with a raised eyebrow say, Are you sure you didn't know. It's
8 just another attempt to bring the evidence before Your Honours. If my
9 learned friend wants to read that evidence, Your Honours, I won't object
10 to that, but we should try to save time, respectfully.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, you see Mr. Jordash is offering his
13 Why not say to the witness, Would your answer be the same even if
14 I would show you documentary evidence which links him to the Serbian DB.
15 And then the witness can answer the question and we move on.
16 I mean, we don't have to convince this witness that there was a
17 link, isn't it?
18 MS. MARCUS: I'm happy to leave it there, Your Honour. Thank
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, this is what, I take it, repeat the
21 question, saying there's even documentary evidence presented.
22 MR. JORDASH: Yes. And we've already indicated we agree that
23 this record is authentic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 Ms. Marcus. And perhaps because this is, of course, a
1 repetition. It's not the first time that Mr. Jordash is on his feet. I
2 think I earlier gave you already guidance that it could be dealt with in
3 a more simple way. So would you please keep that in mind if you have any
4 future documents to show to the witness after he has testified that he
5 doesn't know anything about A, B, or C. Rather leave it to that or one
6 additional question. If I would show you documentary evidence on A,
7 would you still ... and then move on. Yes?
8 MS. MARCUS: Absolutely, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, are you aware that after the war the DB of Serbia maintained
10 a training camp or base for the JSO Kula and that that training centre
11 was named for Rade Kostic?
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, P61.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew of that. And even as
14 of chief of service, because of the name I gave them as a gift - and I
15 was authorised to do that - a vehicle because I felt -- I thought that
16 these were honourable men. I made a mistake. I'm sorry, I was misled.
17 Q. I'm sorry, could you clarify what you said. You said you gave
18 them a gift. You said, "I them as a gift, I was authorised to do that, a
19 vehicle." Can you tell us who you gave that vehicle to and who
20 authorised you to give it?
21 A. I was the authorised person. I was the chief of service. After
22 Kojic left on the 27th of April 1996, all the burdens because of our poor
23 equipment, the poor equipment of the public security, was my burden, and
24 I had to go around begging for money for salaries to pay out.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, why not answer the question: To
1 whom was that vehicle given?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the training centre in Kula,
3 Rade Kostic. Because I thought that this was an elite honourable unit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
5 MS. MARCUS:
6 Q. Mr. Djukic, then isn't it possible that others could have had a
7 relationship with the Serbian DB that you also didn't know about, such as
8 Martic and such as Slobodan Medic, Boca?
9 A. Boca - and I've already explained this - and Milanovic had ties
10 with the public security of Serbia. That's not in dispute. But very few
11 services would want to have Martic as their collaborator.
12 Q. Could I just ask my question again. Isn't it possible that
13 others could also have had a relationship with the Serbian DB that you
14 may not have known about. Those others, including Martic, including
15 Boca, including Milanovic.
16 A. And I've said that Milanovic and Boca had ties with Badza -
17 Radovan Stojicic, in other words - and with Rodja, the chief of the
18 public security department, not the state security. I knew about that.
19 That was Vlastimir Djordjevic, also known as Rodja.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic. Just one more time I will ask you the
21 same question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, the problem in the question is that the
23 witness says that he had some awareness of links of two of the persons
24 you mentioned. So we should then focus the question on the remainder.
25 Now, you told us that Milanovic and Boca you knew had ties with
1 Badza. Now, the question has not been answered in relation to Martic.
2 You said I -- most services, few services would want to have him as their
3 collaborator. Is it --
4 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Is it your testimony that you
6 have no knowledge of Martic having such links to the Serbian DB and which
7 you would not know of and that you consider that it is unlikely that he
8 had on the basis of your assessment of Mr. Martic and how useful such a
9 person would be for a service? Is that we will understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's well understood. In
11 addition --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'd like to then deal with the remainder
13 of the question. That is, is it possible that other persons may have had
14 links with the Serbian DB but that you didn't know about that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a collaborator is a person
16 who in a organised manner and secretly and permanently provides
17 information to some service. Now, how would I know when it's secret?
18 Had they offered it to me, I would have accepted it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say it is possible that these things
20 would have been the case without me knowing it.
21 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
22 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Sir, you testified that the relation between Kojic and Martic was
24 generally good, and we agree with that. But there was a point at which
25 tension developed briefly in that relationship and that was around the
1 time that Ilija Prijic was kidnapped; is that correct? Yes or no,
3 A. That's quite correct. The abduction scenario, or, rather, his
4 removal from the public security, and that's a legitimate act, I was in
5 favour of him being removed from our area.
6 Q. Around the end of August 1994, RSK minister of the interior
7 Ilija Prijic publicly stated at a press conference that he been kidnapped
8 by four paramilitary soldiers in Borovo Selo, put into a car, and
9 released several hours later in a forest near Bijeljina. He publicly
10 accused Radislav Kostic of being behind the kidnapping and also publicly
11 said that Radislav Kostic worked for the Serbian state security. That's
12 all correct, isn't it?
13 A. No. I selected, I hand-picked the police members who would
14 arrest him. He was not injured. He was taken to a wood near Bijeljina.
15 And on his person, he had a huge amount of foreign currency, of money.
16 These police officers never took a penny from that. He is now living in
17 Belgrade, and he has a police academy or something. We were in fact very
18 gentle with him in view of what he would have deserved, in fact. But
19 first we asked Martic to allow us to remove him from that position.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, again, why not answer the question?
21 The question was whether, at the end of August 1994, that the RSK
22 minister of the interior publicly stated that he had been kidnapped by
23 four paramilitary soldiers in Borovo Selo.
24 Did he say so at a press conference?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never read anything about that.
1 I never found that anywhere to read. I read an article that he wrote --
2 JUDGE ORIE: So -- and did he say in that article that he was
3 kidnapped by four paramilitary soldiers?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I had -- hadn't read
6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that I then misunderstood. Are you aware of any
7 public accusation by him that Rade Kostic was behind the kidnapping?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of it, and I went to the
9 editorial office of "Vjesnik" on Wednesday in order to -- to offer a
10 denial of that. I don't know why it was never published, but it wasn't.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, was it also then publicly said that
12 Radovan Kostic worked for the Serbian state security?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what he also said at a
14 meeting. It was a very difficult meeting. I tried to appease everyone
15 around --
16 JUDGE ORIE: okay. That answers the questions.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MARCUS:
19 Q. When you say "he also said that at a meeting," who said -- who
20 said what at a meeting? Just so that I understand.
21 A. Martic presided over the meeting, and I -- I reported and we
22 appealed that Minister -- which appealed to him that Minister Prijic be
23 removed because the service -- the officers who were in that service were
24 very dissatisfied with his work, and he left Croatia on the 1st of
25 January, 1993. But Martic did not accept that.
1 After this, his security detail cocked their weapons, and then I
2 assessed, and this -- we were in office number 10 there, we assessed, I
3 said that he should be removed from there, and -- because there was a
4 possibility that someone would get shot and killed.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, could we take the witness back to one of
6 his previous answers.
7 So you say Mr. Martic said that Mr. Kostic was -- at least there
8 was a hint that he was working for the Serbian DB. Is that correctly
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No you misunderstood me.
11 Mr. Prijic. That was what the question was.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But he hinted with Mr. Kostic being -- being linked
13 to the RDB.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's possible. And I can just
15 add that the late Kostic was born in Serbia, so no wonder if he worked
16 for his country. I was paid to work for a foreign country and I refused.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. But whether it's true or not is another matter.
18 What I would like you to -- I asked you, and I'll go to it again, I asked
20 "Now was it also then publicly said that Radovan Kostic worked
21 for the Serbian state security?"
22 And you said:
23 "Yes, that's what he also said at a meeting."
24 When I then asked you about Mr. Martic saying so, you said, "No,
25 it was not Mr. Martic. It was Mr. Prijic." Is that correctly
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correctly understood.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, earlier you were asked, did you have ever --
4 did you have any indication that Kostic was actually working for the DB
5 of Serbia, and your answer was a bit unclear. And then I asked you again
6 to answer the question. I said:
7 "Did you ever have any indication that Kostic was actually
8 working for the DB of Serbia?"
9 You said:
10 "I apologise. I thought it was implicit from what I said that we
11 were not very close and I never talked to him about it, nor did I have
12 any indications other than the fact that his wife worked somewhere in
14 What you say the only thing that could hint at Kostic being
15 working for the DB would be the fact that his wife was working in
16 Belgrade, which is not a very strong indication, to say the least.
17 And now you tell us -- half an hour later, you tell us that it
18 was publicly said by Prijic that Kostic was working for the DB. Isn't
19 that an indication of him working for the DB, if someone says so in
21 Yes, you may --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't find Prijic's words
23 relevant. He was an individual we wanted to remove from the position of
24 minister. I told you that it nearly came to a blows and armed conflict.
25 I told you that there was no information like that going around the
1 service. If he was an agent or a collaborator, that was something else.
2 JUDGE ORIE: An indication isn't yet a fact. If you consider the
3 mere fact that his wife was working in Belgrade worth mentioning, then
4 certainly a public statement, whether or not you believed it or not,
5 whether you considered it a reliable indication or not is a different
6 matter, should have been part of your answer and you should not have kept
7 it away from us and then later to say, I considered it not to be
8 relevant, or it was an indication. Although, as I understand, you didn't
9 believe it at the time, although it would not surprise you. And whether
10 it's true or not, is another matter.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
12 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Sir, I would now like to ask you briefly about the incident in
14 October of 1994 when Martic was stopped at the border crossing between
15 Serbia and the RSK.
16 At page 18031, you were asked about this incident. The question
18 "Do you know anything about Martic's complaint at this time
19 complaining that Kojic and Kostic were effectively acting against his
20 interests, including having their men stop him it the Tovarnik crossing?"
21 Your answer was:
22 "These weren't Kojic's or Kostic's men. This was the check-point
23 unit, and there was an oversight on their part. They did not recognise
24 the minister right away."
25 Now, first of all, in October 1994, Milan Martic was not
1 minister. He was the president of the RSK; correct?
2 A. Yes, it is true that he was president. It is also true that
3 members of the police were responsible for this oversight. But his
4 security detail made an error, too, because they should have announced
5 his passage through. There's always a patrol going ahead of them,
6 reporting which patrol point they were at at any given time, which was
7 not the case in this particular instance.
8 Q. Milan Martic was one of the most famous people in the RSK, since
9 1990 or 1991, by the time of this event. Would you agree? Yes or no,
11 A. Yes, I agree with you. I told you that as an individual who held
12 the most responsibility for the police saw this to be a gross oversight
13 and irresponsible conduct on the part of the policemen who failed to
14 recognise their president, and they were no longer allowed to perform
15 these tasks. They were transferred to tasks of a lower responsibility
16 and were replaced by individuals who were up to that task and who knew at
17 least one foreign language.
18 Q. Could I please have P987 on the screen.
19 This is one of the documents that was shown to you by the
21 Could I please have the middle of page 2 in English, and the
22 bottom half of page 1 in B/C/S.
23 Can I call your attention to the portion which says -- by the
24 way, to remind you this is a letter from Milan Martic to
25 Slobodan Milosevic regarding this incident at the border.
1 "At the crossing, I was met by Colonel Stojan Spanovic, corps
2 Chief of Staff, who was in a military... car. He got into my car and
3 immediately informed me that the crossing on the RSK side was under the
4 control of Ilija Kojic's men. Our column consisted of a VRSK Ford with a
5 rotating light, an Audi in which I was, and a Mitsubishi Pajero with my
6 escort. When we arrived at the crossing, we were flagged down. As we
7 pulled up a dozen or so men wearing military camouflage uniforms came up
8 to our cars with their rifles points, fingers on the triggers. They were
9 weapons were pointed both at me personally and at all my men."
10 Could we now please have the middle of page 3 in English and the
11 top of page two in B/C/S. I'll read the portion beginning with the words
12 "At the meeting..."
13 "At the meeting in the command of the 11th Corps in Vukovar, I
14 was given the following information. The men who organised the incident
15 were members of the paramilitary and parapolice forces stationed in
16 Erdut. They are under the direct control of Rade Kostic of the State
17 Security Department of the MUP of Serbia. These individuals also took
18 part in the kidnapping of Ilija Prijic, minister of the interior of the
20 "The said Rade Kostic had entered the territory of the RSK an
21 hour before I did, i.e., at about 0900 hours, in an official BMW with
22 registration plates of the MUP of Serbia.
23 "The command of the 11th VRSK Corps has no authority whatsoever
24 over the camp in Erdut or any other in Eastern Slavonia or Baranja."
25 Sir, there wasn't a simple mixup, was it? This was, in fact, a
1 way of reminding Martic who held the real power in the SBWS, the same way
2 that Ilija Prijic had been reminded when he tried to suspend Kojic and
3 Kostic; right?
4 A. I did not have the authority to assess the decisions taken by
5 Kojic or Kostic. I was given a detailed report on this by Dragan Djukic
6 who was the secretary of the Vukovar SUP and who was referred in
7 connection with the incident when Arkan stormed into the SUP. I accepted
8 it. It is possible that I didn't know of it, that I wasn't informed of
9 it, but believe me when I tell that you I speak the truth. I do allow
10 for the possibility that this incident did, indeed, happen.
11 Q. Thank you. I'm done with that document. Could I now please have
12 P1605 on the screen.
13 Sir, this is the text of an intercepted conversation between
14 Martic and someone identified as the president, who we say is Slobodan
15 Milosevic. The conversation is from 4 October 1994, three days before
16 the letter we were just looking at.
17 At the beginning of the conversation, Martic introduces himself
18 and asks to speak to the president.
19 If we could have the bottom of the page in English, please. I
20 will now read a portion, beginning with the words, "Mr. President hello?"
21 As I read, the letter M represents things said by Martic, while
22 the letter X represents things said by the president,
23 President Milosevic.
24 "M: Mr. President, hello.
25 "X: Hello.
1 "M: I am calling from Vukovar. You know what? I have gone
2 through such an embarrassment. This is not to be tolerated.
3 "X: Pardon me?
4 "M: The very same gang that was carrying out arrests before, from
5 Erdut, waited for me with rifles pointed at me and carried out a search
6 vehicle by vehicle.
7 "X: Did what?
8 "M: They waited for me, around 15 of them. With rifles pointed
9 at me, and ... from vehicle to vehicle, did they think perhaps that ...
10 but such a behaviour, please, either you will order Jovica to withdraw
11 this gang or I will deal with it my way. Believe me, I will run them
12 over with tanks, whatever the outcome. I am kindly asking you. This has
13 gone beyond limits. Kostic, the one who was removed passed this way an
14 hour ago and organised them to come and wait for me with rifles pointed
15 and to maltreat me. Mr. President, I believe that definitely this is
16 definitely not to be tolerated.
17 "X: Absolutely.
18 "M: If you have any respect for me, you will order
19 Jovica Stanisic, who is pulling the strings, to remove this gang from
20 here within one or two hours time, not to see them here ever again, or in
21 Erdut, Pajzos, (?)...," there is a question mark after the word "Pajzos"
22 in the English, "... or wherever it is that they have encamped. That is
23 a true gang, I guarantee you that.
24 "X: And where did they wait for you?
25 "M: Here in Tovarnik, they waited for me, around 15 of them, with
1 rifles pointed at me. The one with a red beret said his name was
2 Marko Bajic. I did not see that. He could have told me any name, but it
3 is the same gang that kidnapped Prijic. I am kindly asking you to order
4 Jovica Stanisic to cleanse them from Erdut, Pajzos, and all other places
5 that they have occupied within an hour or two, otherwise I will have to
6 do something. This is not good."
7 Sir, once again, there is simply no way that this was a mistake.
8 This was a message sent to Milan Martic to remind him that while Serbia
9 supported him, he could not depart too far from the course the Serbian
10 leadership wanted him to follow. In particular, he could not suspend the
11 members of the Serbian DB who worked in his Ministry of the Interior.
12 Isn't that the real truth?
13 A. I absolutely believe in this. Martic who was the sort of people
14 who would never steer clear of the truth. But let me tell that you this
15 terrible incident was not something that I was aware of, and why would I
16 have been aware of everything, because I was going -- touring the area,
17 because I had to attend to my duties, and I may have well been
18 investigating a murder on that day.
19 Q. Thank you. I'm --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
21 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You're doing approximately the same as you did
24 The witness testified that he received reports that this whole
25 incident about not recognising Martic. Now you may have or may not have
1 doubts about that, but then to ask the witness, Isn't this what happened,
2 which means that -- there are two possibilities: Either there's an
3 assumptions that the witness has any knowledge apart from what was
4 reported to him, that's one option; the other option is that the witness
5 was not telling us the truth when he told us about what was reported to
7 Now, these two matters are -- may be relevant to explore, but to
8 say isn't it -- this is what happened, that is a -- I mean, the witness
9 wasn't present, so he has no firsthand knowledge of it. So he relies on
10 reports. And he doesn't know anything about this apparently, about this
11 telephone conversation.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I've understood, respectfully, on this
13 particular issue, as far as I understood the witness saying, he did have
14 direct involvement. He said he sent his guys to border in terms of
15 Prijic, and so with his direct involvement and his assertions that would
16 have gone unanswered -- now, I take Your Honours' point. Perhaps one
17 document would have done it. I think one document led him to say it was
18 possible, but because of the point that he had made about this and
19 because of our case on this, I felt that it was my obligation to put to
20 our complete position though this evidence to make sure that he
21 responded --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but to put your position to a witness is not
23 the same as to put every piece of evidence to a witness. You could say,
24 We have a -- a telephone conversation recorded in which this and this is
25 said. But the main issue is whether you sent someone there, yes or no.
1 The knowledge of the witness is exclusively based on what was reported to
3 Now, whether it was a wrong report or whether the witness has not
4 told us the truth about what was reported to him. That's the key issue,
5 I would say. And what has happened, apparently there is at least
6 contradicting evidence on what has happened, and the Chamber will have to
7 weigh the words and the -- the hearsay evidence of this witness on what
8 happened with all the other evidence, and that's what we'll do.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Djukic, you testified at page 17978 that the Skorpions unit:
12 "They belonged to the Slavonia Baranja corps, I think the 11th,
13 but they were also answerable to the detached Ministry of Defence
14 headquartered in Erdut, headed by Milan Milovanovic," that's how the
15 transcript read, "aka Mrgud. He was the boss or the chief because he was
16 the assistant minister of defence and had, by virtue of I know which
17 authority, boundless, limitless powers."
18 Now I believe that what you said was, "by virtue of I don't know
19 which authority," if that is in fact the case, what did you mean when you
20 said that? Who was it that gave Mrgud that boundless, limitless
21 authority. Do you know or do you not know?
22 A. Either Martic, that's to say President Martic, or the minister of
23 the Army of the Krajina, Colonel Suput. Nobody else. Of course, let me
24 just correct you. Milanovic, whatever person he may have been, didn't
25 have any card [as interpreted]. I don't know where you got that
1 information from.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there must be some
4 sort of confusion because on page 82, line 6, there's a card. But that's
5 not what the witness said. He said something else.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said Milanovic, whatever person he may
7 have been, didn't have any ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A guard of sorts. A guard would be
10 an elite unit.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this -- there's
12 another confusion. On page 82, lines between 18 and 23, again, there is
13 confusion there as well with what is on transcript. But I refrained from
14 intervening because of time constraints.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it's serious you should do. If you
16 consider it not of such importance that you refrain, we'll follow that.
17 Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.
18 MS. MARCUS: Thank you.
19 Q. Now earlier, Mr. Djukic, you acknowledged that you were not aware
20 of the relationship between Milanovic and the Serbian DB. You said you
21 were aware of his relationship with the public security and Badza, but
22 you acknowledged that for that individual and a number of others you were
23 not aware of their relationship, if any, to the Serbian DB.
24 That's accurate; right?
25 A. I said that he was on a close terms with Radovan Stojicic, Badza,
1 and Vlastimir Djordjevic, Rodja, both as a friend and in professional
2 terms. The letter being here now with you.
3 Q. Okay. At page 17979 you were asked:
4 "Mr. Djukic, you said that they were part" -- this is referring
5 to the Skorpions. "You said that they were part of the Slavonia Baranja
6 Corps. Do you know who members of this battalion the Skorpions received
7 their orders from?"
8 You answered:
9 "On certain issues from General Loncar, or the officer authorised
10 by him. On the issue of providing security for the oil plant, from the
11 director of the oil company. And on some other specific issues, from
13 Now, the knowledge you have regarding who was giving orders to
14 the Skorpions dates from which years, please.
15 A. If my memory serves me well they were formed sometime in 1992,
16 and I said that they had a dual role that was to maintain positions and
17 to provide technical support to the oil plant which was very vulnerable
18 because of possible sabotage.
19 Now, as for the relationship between Loncar and Milanovic, that's
20 not something I can speak to. I think, and a confirmation of this I got
21 yesterday, that they were well co-ordinated and harmonised.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Again, why not answer the question, Mr. Djukic? The
23 question was: What years. You had your knowledge. Ms. Marcus asks the
24 dates from which years. You started to say that they were formed
25 sometime in 1992. That is about years. And it went up to when?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what else am I supposed to
2 answer to?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you gave knowledge regarding who was given
4 orders to the Skorpions. You had mentioned two sources: Providing
5 security for the oil plant; and, on other specific issues, Milanovic.
6 Now, the only thing Ms. Marcus is asking you is receiving
7 instructions from two sides. That was during what period of time. That
8 was the question. And perhaps I could assist you. You said they were
9 formed in 1992. Does that mean that receiving orders both from -- to say
10 the oil plant side and from Milanovic on specific issues, that started
11 right once the formation -- once the unit had been formated -- formed?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. Save for Milanovic who
13 had continuity; whereas, the corps commander and the directors changed
14 between 1992 and 1995.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now this situation of receiving
16 instructions or orders from both directions, that continued until when?
17 Until 1995 or ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the way through to the point
19 when the Skorpions left the districts in 1996.
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they left the district. And
22 then I met Mr. Milanovic -- well, you did ask me to explain this to you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, you're invited to answer the
24 question. The question -- the answer is: This went on from 1992 to
25 1996. That's an answer to the question.
1 So do not start explaining an answer that has not yet been given.
2 Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
3 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now, even within those years, you were not aware of every
5 instruction or every order that was given to Milanovic; isn't that
7 A. As far as the military component is concerned, I wasn't aware of
8 a single order. I've already said repeatedly that I didn't have any
9 co-operation or was on good terms with the RSK army because I predicted
10 their imminent breakup or demise.
11 Q. I'll take that as a yes answer.
12 So you were not aware of every instruction or every order given
13 to Milanovic; yes? Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then you were also not aware of all the details of every
16 instruction or every order given to or received by the Skorpions; is that
17 correct? Yes or no, please, sir.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At page 17991, as you were starting to tell us about your
20 investigation into the NIK oil company at Dzeletovci, you were asked:
21 "Can you now tell us, please, did you know or did you inform the
22 military authorities about the activities that you intended to undertake
23 at the NIK?"
24 Your answer was:
25 "Your Honours, if I may just clarify something. Even had the
1 Defence asked me --" and then you were cut off.
2 Can you specify for us what you were going to say? Even had the
3 Defence asked you, do you remember what you were going to say. If you
4 don't remember, please just say so.
5 A. I do remember that. They were all stressful situations.
6 This is my answer. This was a criminal inquiry into the crimes
7 and their perpetrators, and this was something that I was not duty-bound
8 to inform the Army of at all.
9 Q. Now you testified that you were assigned to investigate the
10 operations of the oil industry. I believe you told us that this was in
11 January and February of 1994. You said:
12 "Two inspectors arriving from Knin, they are economists, and they
13 were able to inspect the financial dealings of the company; whereas, I
14 was only there in order to assist them in drafting a report and possibly
15 a criminal complaint, if that was required."
16 Who was it who assigned you to investigate the operations of the
17 oil industry? Very briefly, please.
18 A. This was a continuous activity. I said that President Martic
19 obtained the information. Krsto Zarkovic and I planned the action,
20 IKOR [phoen] and that was part of it. As chief of public security, I
21 didn't have anyone to receive information from when it comes to operative
22 information. It is my duty to give a -- posit orders to others and get
23 involved in matters if they deserve my attention.
24 Q. Perhaps just to clarify, under whose authority was the
25 investigation conducted?
1 A. The investigation was conducted, pursuant to the Law on Criminal
2 Proceedings which authorises official persons when there are grounded
3 suspicions that a crime would be committed, they would then be activated
4 automatically. So there is no order. There is no need for an order to
5 be issued. You just had to take action pursuant to law.
6 Q. And what specifically were the allegations that were being
7 investigated? Please, as briefly as possible.
8 A. In brief, President Martic noticed that the proceeds in -- into
9 the budget were diminished, and he was wondering whether there was an
10 illegal outflow of capital from the oil industry. And it was established
11 that that was, indeed, the case.
12 Q. Who was the outflow going to? So whether there was an illegal
13 outflow of capital, to whom did you discover that it was being
14 transferred to?
15 A. We discovered, and I already replied, there was a road under
16 construction, some 35 kilometres of road through the region. It was 7
17 metres wide. The work was done by a private company, Borovica from Ruma,
18 and the investigation established that there was less asphalt and gravel
19 used for the road, and this involved a huge amount of money, and then
20 Borovica from this money that was channeled out, syphoned out, he gave it
21 to Egic who was then a member of the assembly. He gave it to them. And
22 he is today one of the richest men in Novi Sad.
23 Q. Now who did you send the reports to once the investigation was
24 concluded? Please, Mr. Djukic, try to answer very briefly. I'm trying
25 to ask you some questions so that we can follow up on this afterwards.
1 And my time is very short. I'm nearly done. Please, very briefly, to
2 whom did you send the final reports of the investigation?
3 A. The criminal complaint against the two individuals was forwarded
4 to the competent district public prosecutor, Petar Stupar, who was a very
5 honourable and very conscientious man, very conscientious worker. And
6 this was a crime that involved immediate detention; in other words, the
7 detention of these individuals would follow immediately.
8 Q. Were there any police officials involved in the investigation
9 apart from yourself?
10 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, just wondering what the relevance is of this
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
13 MS. MARCUS: It's hard to answer, Your Honour, without -- this is
14 the first time we heard of it. I just want this answer to this one
15 question, and then we'll determine what --
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, we --
17 MS. MARCUS: It was led by the Simatovic Defence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. MARCUS: So for us, when something is led, it wasn't in the
20 notice, and we don't know. There obviously must have been some relevance
21 because they raised it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The objection --
23 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] Sorry, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. MARCUS: That was my final question on this issue.
2 Q. Mr. Djukic, were there any other police officials with you
3 involved in this investigation.
4 A. Well, first of all, other than Kostic, Kojic, and the minister,
5 there are no other officials. All the other persons were professionals,
6 workers. They were police officers, commanders, chiefs. Krsto
7 Radovic [as interpreted], for instance, is a -- has a Ph.D. now and is an
8 instructor or a lecturer in Banja Luka --
9 Q. Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my information. Do you say that many other
11 persons were involved, therefore, in this investigation?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was precise. Two inspectors
13 who specialised in -- in white-collar crime, Krsto Zarkovic and me, the
14 four of us.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MS. MARCUS:
17 Q. When you were speaking about the Skorpions and you spoke about
18 Slobodan Medic, this at is 17992, you spoke about Radovan Stojicic, aka
19 Badza, being a frequent guest of Medic. And you mentioned that Milovan
20 Terzic also visited, if I understood you correctly?
21 Can you tell who Milovan Terzic was? Please, very briefly sir.
22 A. Milovan Terzic was one of the managers of the oil industry, but
23 he did not live in Serbia. He lived in Mirkovci. And for some reason
24 that was not known to me, he spent a lot of time with the leadership of
25 the public security in Serbia, and he was even given gifts by them. He
1 received some resolvers from them. Now why it was, I don't know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, apparently Mr. Petrovic has nothing to
5 bring to our attention at this moment.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. Could I --
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, because
9 in the meantime what I thought was omitted from the transcript was
10 actually there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.
12 MS. MARCUS: Thank you. Could the court officer please call up
14 JUDGE ORIE: Unnecessary to remind you that you've got five
15 minutes left.
16 MS. MARCUS:
17 Q. What you see before you is a military report on paramilitary
18 units. We say that this document dates from after May 1996.
19 Your Honours I refer you to the transcript at the 27th of October, 2010,
20 at page 8206.
21 I'll give you a minute to just read through the first page.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. Would my
23 colleague please tell me who the author of this document is? And where
24 it's from, what organ, so that the witness may get his bearings.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness is invited to read this document.
1 If you would have presented it to him you would have given him perhaps
2 other information. We do not know yet what the questions are, so it's
3 premature to say that for the questions to follow that you would need to
4 give this information to the witness, Mr. Petrovic.
5 The witness may read the document.
6 MS. MARCUS:
7 Q. Can I specifically ask you to read from where number 1 starts,
8 that paragraph, and then the paragraph which will be on your next page.
9 A. Could you scroll down the second page. It has to be scrolled
10 down a bit.
11 Could you lift up the first page. The Serbian version. I don't
12 see the bottom of it. I didn't see the bottom. Yes, now I have it.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Please go ahead.
15 Q. I have two very brief questions on this.
16 Were aware of the Skorpions' involvement in the smuggling of
17 lumber? Yes or no.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did your investigation involve that issue in any way? Yes or no,
20 please, sir.
21 A. Yes. A large quantity of lumber was seized, and, you know, not
22 to mention that the judges sold it after I left from there.
23 Q. Now, did your investigation also involve shipments of oil to
24 Serbia, other than the -- the transfer of moneys. You told us earlier
25 that your investigation involved the transfer of money. Now you told us
1 it also involved the smuggling of lumber. Did your investigation also
2 involve shipments of oil to Serbia?
3 A. No. Oil did not go to Serbia. The crude oil was sent to Serbia
4 and then it was refined and processed in Pancevo. But I'm no expert for
5 that, so I couldn't do it.
6 Q. So if I understand you correctly, your investigation did not
7 involve the transfer or the shipment of crude oil to Serbia from
8 Dzeletovci; is that correct?
9 A. That's correct. We just had information as to the quantities
10 that had gone there and we did that. However, the technology or the way
11 they worked was such that they could always deceive you as to the
12 quantities and the amounts that actually were exported out.
13 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, have I two questions left.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, I earlier told you several times that
15 you could be more efficient by not going through all these documents. We
16 have to stop not later than quarter past 2.00. I have a commitment
17 outdoors. I told you that you would have time until quarter to 2.00.
18 Therefore, I will now give an opportunity to Mr. Jordash. If the last
19 final ten minutes leave some time, we will consider whether to grant that
20 time to you.
21 Mr. Jordash.
22 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
24 Q. Returning to the subject, if I may, of Kojic and his links with
25 the DB. You said today at transcript 63, in relation to the fact that
1 you did not know he had links with the DB, that he most certainly would
2 not have told us about it, or anyone else, because that would have caused
3 a lot of discontent among us.
4 You also said at page 73 today that Prijic had effectively
5 accused Kostic of having links to the DB at a meeting where Prijic was
6 complaining about being kidnapped by Kostic. Was an association with the
7 DB at that time within your region considered to be an insult?
8 A. To the contrary. Why would it be considered to be insult? Why
9 would it be wrong to be a collaborator with your own state, with your own
10 country? Every Englishman who travels abroad actually notes down
11 information that might be useful for his service.
12 Q. Okay. Let me qualify that, then. So it was considered to be
13 okay to be an operative collecting intelligence for the Serbian DB;
15 A. No, not being an operative. But if we learned some information
16 that would of interest to Serbia, it would be quite logical that that may
17 pose a threat to us as well and that as such we should send them the
18 information. But we did have telegram communication with the public
19 security station -- sector of Serbia about crime and law and order and so
21 Q. Why did you say that Kojic wouldn't have told you about his links
22 with the DB because it would have caused discontent? Why -- why would
23 that have been?
24 A. Well, discontent, that's something else, and I was precise. But
25 you want me to answer briefly. You have to know what it is that the
1 security service does. A collaborator is a person who -- in an organised
2 manner and permanently provides information. He works under a code-name,
3 and he is not allowed to disclose that information. As for discontent,
4 that was a reference exclusively to our pay.
5 Q. Okay. So in any event, Kojic you -- he never asserted any
6 relationship with the DB, and you never worked out he had any
7 relationship with the DB. Did you know if he had a relationship with the
8 public security of Serbia in the time you worked with him?
9 A. Yes. Well, I, too, was in direct contact with General Milic who
10 was the chief of the crime prevention service. We co-ordinated our work.
11 We worked together on a smuggling of vehicles and tobacco and so on, and
12 I don't see anything wrong on that. To this day we co-operate along
13 those lines.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash we are close to the five minutes.
15 MR. JORDASH: I know. But other issues arose during the
16 Prosecution's examination. I was hoping to get about ten, even that
17 would be too short, but -- it's difficult to cover --
18 JUDGE ORIE: What you have dealt with now arose before that, I
19 think. But I'm not quite sure, so I have to be careful there.
20 Mr. Petrovic.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we
22 will be able to complete our re-examination by 2.15. I will try to be
23 shorter than I originally thought I would be.
24 JUDGE ORIE: How much minutes would you need, Mr. Petrovic?
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may retain the
1 15 minutes that I announced originally when you first asked me about it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Five more minutes for you, Mr. Jordash, at this
4 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Just answer the question simply without any extra detail. Please
6 help me. Did Kojic tell you or others, or did you become aware that he
7 was linked with the public security in 1993?
8 A. I've already told you that he never told me that he had any legal
9 status there, employment. But we did talk, and there was communication.
10 We had meetings with Republika Srpska also because crime was on the rise
11 at the time, and co-operation is normal in police work.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just coming to your comment about Kojic being
13 number two to Martic. Was Martic responsibile for the RSK army?
14 A. He was the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of Krajina
15 under the constitution.
16 Q. I'm interested in how you place Kojic at number two, given
17 what -- the evidence that you've given us; i.e., that he was arrested by
18 elements of the RSK army, that he had no command authority over Arkan and
19 that group, and that he was dealing with police issues in the main. Why
20 do you say number two? Are you talking formally?
21 A. I don't know where you came by that information that Kojic had
22 been arrested. There are a lot of errors in the interpretation, and I
23 have never reacted because I was interrupted enough as it were. I never
24 said anything about Kojic having ever been arrested. And another matter,
25 Kojic was in charge of the police, not the army.
1 Q. Right. So Kojic wasn't in charge of anything else other than the
2 police; correct?
3 A. Clearly. And also of co-ordination with other structures. I
4 don't know if you understand what co-ordination is, if that comes across
5 clear in the transcript.
6 Q. So the co-ordination between the police and other structures, he
7 was in charge of that, too?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that was limited to SBWS; correct?
10 A. I didn't understand what you meant by the acronym. We don't have
11 that acronym in our language.
12 Do you mean the Slavonia Baranja region? Yes.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You even stayed within your next five minutes. You
17 would have had one minute left.
18 Mr. Petrovic, if you would perform similarly.
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do believe I can.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Petrovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djukic, a couple of questions only to
22 clarify certain issues, and please be brief.
23 At the time of the takeover of Samac - that's to say the 16th and
24 the 17th of April in 1992 - how many people were there in the 17th
25 Tactical Group? What was their head count roughly or precisely?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic --
3 One second. One second, please.
4 Mr. Petrovic, a similar performance is not achieved by speaking
5 at double speech.
6 Could you read the transcript to see if the whole of your
7 question was translated and transcribed.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will put the question this way,
9 Your Honour, with your leave.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As long as you do it slowly, it's fine.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Djukic, how many men were there in the 4th battalion in Samac
13 in mid-April 1992? How many members were there?
14 A. Precisely 550 and another 150 would have been needed to have the
15 full complement.
16 Q. How many members did the 1st Battalion number? The one in
17 Obudovac and Batkusa in the month of April 1992?
18 A. Six hundred. That was the best battalion, and later became an
19 elite unit when it was taken over by the locals.
20 Q. How many members did the 2nd and 3rd Battalions have, if you
22 A. I do. Between 500 and 600. Not all of them were active duty at
23 all times. Some of them would reside in their homes. They were farmers
24 and would be called when necessary.
25 Q. Witness, the volunteers who arrived Batkusa by helicopter. How
1 many of them were, roughly?
2 A. I can state with full responsibility less than 30, definitely.
3 Q. Witness, the police station in Samac would have been
4 restructured, as you put it. Even had these men not arrived, were there
5 enough local forces to perform the tasks set by the SDS without any
7 A. There was no difficulty. It could have been Obudovac on its own.
8 It could have accomplished the task.
9 Q. Mr. Djukic, were there any civilian casualties as Samac was taken
10 over between the 16th and the 17th?
11 A. No. I would say that it was a large-scale raid rather than a
13 Q. Mr. Djukic, my learned friend, Ms. Marcus, gave you a document to
14 read over the break, which is P1418. Did you review the document?
15 A. Yes. I wanted to be told if it was Milan Milicic who signed the
16 document, because if that is the case then I can tell you that I know
17 this document by heart from my previous time as officer.
18 Q. Then, if you know, tell us, who is behind the document? Who
19 inspired the document?
20 A. The discontented Simo Zaric who was convicted here.
21 Q. Do you know why Simo Zaric inspired certain individuals to draw
22 up this document?
23 A. Well, he had the ambition to become the president of the
24 republic, and he was an Orthodox communist.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have a look
1 at P1418, the last page in both versions.
2 Q. Witness, can you tell us the following. Do you know if
3 Mile Beronja who signed this, a colonel, was involved in crime in Samac
4 in 1992?
5 A. Well, whether that was the case or not, he got involved with a
6 woman, and because of him we weren't able to liberate the villages of
7 Bukvik and another one. And we had our people, Serbs, who were stranded
8 there. He was a very poor officer.
9 Q. Mr. Djukic, can you please have a look at the list of signatories
10 here. Tell us, if you know, whether any of these individuals were
11 involved in criminal activities in Samac in 1992?
12 A. Not in Samac they were not. However, Captain Milan Josic, an
13 elite captain of a battalion, was killed on account of crime. He was
14 killed in a traffic accident or at least something that was engineered to
15 look like that. And there was also something about Jovan Erletic.
16 Another thing, it is quite odd that Simo Zaric should be writing
17 this, as a school's officer [as interpreted], that somebody was killed
18 and that he should not file a criminal report about it. The military
19 prosecutor Gajic was one that would be bringing charges against suspected
20 perpetrators. It was stated here that he was killed.
21 Q. Do you know what it was that Simo Zaric wanted to achieve with
22 this document?
23 A. A career. He wanted a promotion. Other -- otherwise, he was a
25 Q. Mr. Djukic, can you clarify this. Let's move to Brcko. At the
1 point of the takeover of power in Brcko, when was it that Zika Crnogorac,
2 the person that we talked about, showed up?
3 A. Only after the commander of the Bijeljina Guard, Savic, aka
4 Mauzer, moved on to take up some other duties.
5 Q. Can you please tell us --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Really slow down, slightly. Adjusting our speed of
7 speech takes more time than to reduce the speed with 15 per cent.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Djukic, was it before or after the takeover or liberation of
12 A. After.
13 Q. You told us, and this perhaps remained unclear after your today's
14 evidence, was Zika Crnogorac a criminal himself, or was he the person who
15 went about arresting criminals in Brcko in December of 1992 -- in the
16 summer of 1992?
17 A. Well, according to what he was doing, he was indeed trying to
18 prevent crime, and that's something I heard from others. But he also
19 went about abusing individuals, extorting statements from them. And you
20 misunderstood me. He didn't take all of the vehicles to Pale. Some of
21 the vehicles had gone missing before. He only said that he took several
22 vehicles and some valuables to Pale to Karadzic, which isn't something
23 that I saw myself.
24 Q. Let's take it bit by bit, Witness. First, the mistreatment of
25 those who were arrested, of which ethnicity were they and what was he
1 trying to do?
2 A. They were Serbs, all of them. Some of them were even active duty
3 policemen and inspectors of the SUP. He was forcing admissions out of
4 them, confessions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. Second, Mr. Djukic, he went about arresting perpetrators of crime
8 based on these very statements that he forced out of those other people.
9 Am I right?
10 A. Yes, you're right.
11 Q. Next, he tried to find perpetrators of the theft of vehicles;
13 A. Yes. He took up files relating to certain BMWs that were already
14 missing, but there were records of these vehicles and he was trying to
15 find their whereabouts.
16 Q. And the reason why he was trying to find where they were was
17 because they -- he wanted to find out who the perpetrators were.
18 A. Yes, because they were vehicles belonging to Muslims. And it was
19 proper that these vehicles be returned to them because there were quite a
20 few Muslims living in our area.
21 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second.
22 Ms. Marcus.
23 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I understand the time constraints, but
24 the leading questions are truly piling up.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To some extent, of course, they are in
1 response to question put by others, to say so.
2 Mr. Petrovic, I would have another concern apart from the leading
3 character of the questions; that is, often this type of quick gaining of
4 information lacks entirely the basis on which the witness is able to
6 Please proceed. You've got three minutes left.
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Djukic, what is the basis or the source of your knowledge
9 about Zika Crnogorac and his attempts to enforce at least some appearance
10 of law and order in Brcko?
11 A. I said yesterday that Boro and Petar Kaurinovic, colleagues of
12 mine, attended studies part-time in Zagreb. They were the ones who
13 provided me with this information as colleagues more than anything else,
14 and they asked me to advise them as to what they should do so -- so that
15 they would not exceed their powers conferred upon them by the law.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. These two individuals you mentioned, were they in any way
19 connected to Zika Crnogorac?
20 A. They provided him with information not because they wanted to but
21 because there were certain inhabitants of Brcko who were the
22 untouchables, the protected ones, and I have to mention, of course, that
23 they were in the SUP, and they were working on crimes. And they did file
24 criminal reports for all these cases. None of them were left behind in
1 Q. Thank you. Can we look at P3038, page 15 in English and 13 in
3 Have a look at the document. Specifically the left-hand side.
4 Is there anywhere in this document that it is indicated that it was
5 produced in the State Security Department of the Republic of Serbia, or
6 that it had to do with the reserve force of the State Security Services?
7 Does this in any way indicate any sort of link between this individual
8 and the State Security Service?
9 A. I am a bit puzzled by what is written there, "I," or "on behalf
10 of the Department of Serbia." This isn't quite legible --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he said.
12 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours. Misleading. The question is
13 misleading. I wouldn't want to say why it's misleading, but I think
14 Mr. Petrovic understands why. The document is a part of a file. That is
15 what I said in the question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that makes also what is not found in a
17 document, Mr. Petrovic, is easy to establish by two intelligent or three
18 intelligent parties to look at the document than to find that no
19 reference is made to food, for example. Of course, that's obvious.
20 Whether there's any other reason -- I mean, what this witness says about
21 that he doesn't find anything in this document. That doesn't help us in
22 any way, is it?
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I agree fully. And
24 I am -- I wonder why my learned friend showed this document to the
25 witness in order to establish that there was a link with state security,
1 because it is a quite apparent that it cannot be established on -- on
2 this basis. That's why I showed the document to the witness again.
3 I have one more question left, with your leave.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One question.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Djukic, was it the case that in the MUP that the MUP would
7 admit anyone with a criminal record, anyone with criminal convictions
8 based on your knowledge and experience stemming from your police career?
9 A. Article 45 of the Law on the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, as
10 well as of other republics, clearly stated that such an individual could
11 be admitted only if it had to do with a traffic accident, which was
12 done -- committed out of negligence, but it could not involve in any case
13 a property crime or a crime in general.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I promised you, Ms. Marcus, if there was any time
18 left, I would give it to you. Also in view of the fact that the two
19 Defence teams, to a large extent, also for the Stanisic Defence in
20 cross-examination, seeking evidence on its own case, there was close to
21 six hours, where you had three half hours.
22 One question. Let's see how much time that takes, and then we'll
23 see whether there's time for the second one.
24 MS. MARCUS: I withdraw the question, Your Honour [overlapping
1 JUDGE ORIE: Both?
2 MS. MARCUS: Yes [Overlapping speakers].
3 Thank you, Mr. Djukic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Mr. Djukic, since the Judges have no further questions for you,
7 this concludes your evidence. You may remain seated. Mr. Djukic, I'd
8 like to thank you for coming to The Hague. I'm glad that your medical
9 condition was such that you could give your evidence these days. You've
10 answered the questions put to you by the parties, by the Bench. Thank
11 you for that. And I wish you a safe return home again.
12 You may follow the usher.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I apologise, once
14 again, for speaking too fast.
15 JUDGE ORIE: At least those words were spoken in the appropriate
16 pace. Everyone will be happy with these last words.
17 You may follow the usher.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we will resume Tuesday,
20 the 13th of March, quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom, II.
21 We stand adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.13 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of March,
24 2012, at 2.15 p.m.