1 Tuesday, 15 May 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus
11 Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Since there are no preliminaries, Mr. Plahuta, I would like to
14 remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've
15 given at the beginning of your testimony. Mr. Jordash will now continue
16 his cross-examination.
17 Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
18 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 WITNESS: DEJAN PLAHUTA [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Plahuta.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. I just to want to pick up very briefly on the issue of the
25 military department in Bajina Basta where you registered.
1 You testified about the idea of being a contract soldier and
2 registering in the military department in Bajina Basta, and you stated
3 that afterwards the individual would be deployed in units on the border
4 of the Drina within the framework of the Uzice Corps; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The Uzice Corps, at that time, was conducting military operations
7 to protect the border; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you went to register at the military department, were you
10 told or given an option of where you might be deployed?
11 A. Well, we were only told that we would all be deployed along the
12 border in the area of the Uzice Corps along the Drina. They didn't
13 specify the watch-tower, but they said that it was to be in the environs
14 of Bajina Basta.
15 Q. So everybody registering at the military department would be
16 deployed within Serbia; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. And the only part of the Uzice Corps which went into Bosnia were
19 the special brigades that we were talking about yesterday, the
20 68th Guards, the 72nd Special, and the 63rd Parachute; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know if the VRS at that time had a similar arrangement,
23 some kind of military department for contract soldiers to register?
24 A. You mean the Army of Republika Srpska?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. I'm not familiar with how they operated.
2 Q. Was there any prospect of being contracted to the Uzice MUP if
3 one registered at the military department in Bajina Basta? Was the
4 military department in Bajina Basta purely for the military, with
5 different arrangements for registering with the MUP?
6 A. Anyone registered with the military department in Bajina Basta
7 was included in the military.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the arrangements were, or if there
9 were arrangements, for contract soldiers or contract personnel to
10 register with the Uzice MUP at the time we're talking about?
11 A. I don't think so.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to deal with the special brigades and
13 their involvement in the Skelani municipality.
14 Now, first of all, according to Prosecution witnesses in this
15 case --
16 MR. JORDASH: That's, Your Honour, JF-030 and JF-033.
17 Q. -- there were two principal occasions when the special brigades
18 were engaged within the Skelani municipality. Firstly, in
19 January of 1993; and in - secondly - March of 1993. I want to try to
20 find out what you know about, first of all, the January 1993 involvement.
21 You follow me?
22 A. Yes. In January 1993, the special forces crossed over into
23 Bosnia, as they had been provoked by an attack on Skelani --
24 Q. Let me pause you there first. I want to ask you some specific
25 questions about that.
1 The -- if I could just have a moment.
2 The Oric indictment alleged that Muslim armed units had engaged
3 in various military operations in eastern Bosnia between May of 1992 and
4 February 1993, and that's when, according to the indictment, these
5 various villages we spoke about yesterday had been plundered and when
6 thousands of Serb individuals fled of area.
7 Was it -- is it within your knowledge that that's -- let me
8 rephrase that.
9 Is that essentially your understanding, that Oric was operating
10 between May of 1992 and February of 1993 in the villages along the Drina?
11 A. Well, how should I put it? As regards the territory deeper
12 inside Bosnia, I know there was war there.
13 As for 1993, by that time, the conflict had reached the borders
14 with the Republic of Serbia. So it is correct, what you say.
15 Q. Now, I want to ask you, first of all, about the
16 72nd Special Brigade and what you know about its involvement in
17 January 1993.
18 Did you know, or do you know, that they received their training
19 in Serbia and were trained by officers of the Army of Yugoslavia?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. A witness, JF-033 --
22 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 25919.
23 Q. -- stated that -- and he was a member of that brigade - stated
24 that they were trained along with the police from Knin in January of 1993
25 in Pancevo. Are you able to comment on that?
1 A. I am not.
2 Q. He --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
4 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I am approximately at page close to
6 20.000, so your reference to 25919 is -- comes a bit as a surprise.
15 MR. JORDASH: Yes. I do apologise.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH: I'll make myself clearer.
18 Q. Let me just break that down a little bit. Did -- that
19 Prosecution witness said that the police from Knin were being trained in
20 Pancevo. Did you ever hear that the police from Knin in January 1993
21 were being trained by the VJ, or the Army of Yugoslavia?
22 A. No, I never heard about that.
23 Q. Okay. The same witness then goes on to describe how on the
24 10th of January, 1993, as a member of the 72nd Brigade he attended a
25 briefing in Kremna.
1 MR. JORDASH: The same transcript, Your Honours, at 25923 and
3 Q. And at that briefing in Kremna, General Mrksic, Commander Stupar,
4 and General Ojdanic were there, and Mrksic briefed them that they were
5 being sent to Bosnia. And I quote:
6 "That they, the Bosnian Muslims, had taken the town of Skelani
7 and that Serbia was in further danger and that's why they had to go
9 Did you hear about this hearing from Mrksic setting out clearly
10 to the brigade what the objective of the mission was?
11 A. No, I'm not familiar with that.
12 Q. You are familiar, though, with the objective, that objective
13 being to liberate Skelani with the primary objective to prevent danger to
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Let me try to shortcut things.
17 Are you familiar, then, with the 72nd Special Brigade and the
18 73rd Parachute Brigade thereafter, in January 1993, attacking Skelani,
19 the village, and other villages around the Skelani municipality?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. The witness that I'm referring to, JF-033 --
22 MR. JORDASH: Same transcript, Your Honours, page 25929.
23 Q. -- described how Skelani village and subsequently other villages
24 were surrounded by the special brigades, and thereafter the combat
25 operations began.
1 Are you familiar with that, the tactic of encircling the
2 villages, driving the combats -- combatants out of the houses, and
3 thereafter engaging in combat? Are you familiar with that tactic used?
4 A. I'm not familiar of that tactic become used.
5 Q. Let me ask you about this, then, instead. JF-033 also said that
6 in relation to those people they found within the villages, "most of them
7 were armed, some may have worn uniforms, others not, but if they were
8 armed, they were no longer civilians."
9 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 25930.
10 Q. Are you able to confirm that most of the combatant -- most of the
11 men they found within those villages were armed?
12 A. Yes. I can say that there was a lot of fighting, and they came
13 across people who had weapons, and they engaged them.
14 Q. Are you able to comment on whether there were any women or
15 children present in those villages at that time?
16 A. I don't know -- well, when Naser Oric launched a surprise attack,
17 there were women and children there, because the villages were full.
18 When our forces launched our counteroffensive operation, I had no
19 information to the extent that there were women and children in those
21 Q. Did you hear about some of the sites that the special brigade saw
22 when they went into the villages occupied by Oric's men? What I mean is
23 that Oric had, I suggest, launched surprise attacks on those villages,
24 massacred civilians, and left some of their corpses around the villages
25 as a warning sign.
1 Did you hear about that?
2 A. Yes. During a briefing at the watch-tower, the commander
3 explained the situation in the field to us. He told us that our forces
4 came across many dead civilians.
5 Q. Do you agree with me that it would not be logical for Oric, given
6 what had happened previously, for him to have allowed women and children
7 to remain in the villages when he was expecting a return attack?
8 Would that be logical?
9 A. You're right, it would not have been logical for them to remain
10 in the villages.
11 Q. JF-033 claimed that a man called Lieutenant Zombi - his real
12 name, I think, was Lieutenant Zoletic - had, during this attack, killed
13 children. He was the only person who killed children.
14 MR. JORDASH: Page 25930, Your Honours, of the same transcript.
15 Q. Did you hear about him? Is there any truth in that from what
16 your -- from what you know?
17 A. This is the first time I hear of that name or of anything like
18 that happening.
19 Q. JF-033 also --
20 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 26054.
21 Q. -- stated that he did not see anyone from the Serbian DB involved
22 in those operations. Is that something that you can agree with, from
23 your knowledge?
24 A. Yes, I can.
25 Q. Now, I want to move on to the second attack which, according to a
1 witness in this trial, took place in March of 1993.
2 MR. JORDASH: It's JF-030, Your Honours.
3 Q. Now, at the time of this -- these operations, March of 1993,
4 where were you at this point? What were you doing?
5 A. In March of 1993, I think I was still a contract soldier.
6 Q. And your day-to-day? I'm trying to understand who you might have
7 been in contact with and what you might have heard about these operations
8 in March of 1993.
9 A. In our area, there was no fighting or war-time operations. There
10 was nothing of particular interest that was reported to the watch-tower
11 as happening in the border area with Serbia.
12 Q. Were you receiving information about the activities of the
13 Uzice Corps, including these special brigades?
14 A. I don't know. We were not informed about that because it
15 probably did not occur in our border belt area. So I don't know about
17 Q. But let's see what you do or don't know.
18 JF-030 --
19 MR. JORDASH: This is P2091, Your Honours.
20 Q. -- describes an attack, an unsuccessful attack initially, on a
21 place called Miholjevine, M-i-h-o-l-j-e-v-i-n-e, on the 9th of March -- I
22 beg your pardon, on the morning of the 10th of March, 1993. Did you hear
23 about that unsuccessful attack by the 68th Guard Brigade, the
24 72nd Special Brigade, and the 63rd Parachute Brigade?
25 A. No, I did not hear about that.
1 Q. Okay. Let me not waste time, then, and just ask you some more
2 general questions to see if you know anything or heard anything about
4 JF-030 --
5 MR. JORDASH: Same exhibit, Your Honours, paragraph 52.
6 Q. -- states:
7 "During these operations, to retake the municipalities, we did
8 not fight against non-combatants. We neutralized the targets, including
9 destroying the houses from where we received resistance. I know many
10 houses were used by the enemy and there were civilians in those houses,
11 but we did not kill directly any unarmed civilian during the fight."
12 Are you in a position to be able to confirm what this witness
13 said, that these operations in March of 1993 were aimed at military
15 A. Well, I suppose, since there was a war going on, military
16 personnel was supposed to be neutralized, but I have no knowledge about
17 this -- of this case, so I can't comment.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I would have expected you to announce
19 that P2091 is under seal.
20 MR. JORDASH: Oh, it's basically because I wasn't pulling it up I
21 left that out, but yes, I'll --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
23 MR. JORDASH: Certainly.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- let's be careful at least, yes.
25 MR. JORDASH:
1 Q. Let me ask you, then, about this, Mr. Plahuta.
2 This same witness said that prisoners of war were taken and also
3 civilians from villages were taken, and the prisoners of war went to
4 Serbia, and the civilians either went to Bosnian army territory or to
6 Do you know anything about that?
7 MR. JORDASH: That's, Your Honours, paragraph 52.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've heard nothing about that.
9 MR. JORDASH:
10 Q. Let me ask you this, then: Are you able to confirm that the
11 overall offensive operation was co-ordinated by Mrksic and Stupar with
12 also some input by Mladic?
13 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 57 -- paragraph 57.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the territory of Bosnia,
15 that was probably the case, as these are the individuals who, on the
16 whole, exercised command there.
17 MR. JORDASH:
18 Q. This same witness, at paragraph 58, says:
19 "During our operation in eastern Bosnia, we were regularly
20 supplied by ammunition, stores, and equipment from VJ. It was the
21 Uzice Corps who provided this logistics support."
22 Are you able to confirm that?
23 A. There's nothing I could say about that.
24 Q. Okay. This same witness, at paragraph 48, suggests that the
25 Serbian PJM and Bozovic, leading a group called the Red Berets, was
1 supposed to take part in these operations from Bajina Basta by providing
2 mortar support.
3 Did you hear about that intention?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. The witness, though, then goes on to say, at transcript
6 page 10739 to 10742, that he did not see and wasn't sure whether that, in
7 fact, had taken place.
8 Do you know if Bozovic or the Serbian PJM had anything to do with
9 these March 1993 operations?
10 A. No, they had nothing to do with that.
11 Q. How do you say that with such certainty?
12 A. Well, if it's the special police unit from Serbia, I know that
13 they didn't cross over into the territory of Bosnia, so ... I know that.
14 Q. But if Bozovic was working for the Republika Srpska MUP -- let me
15 put that differently.
16 What was the -- do you know what the role of the Republika Srpska
17 MUP was in these operations within Bosnia?
18 A. I don't know what the situation was with regard to the
19 Republika Srpska MUP. I don't know what they did over there.
20 Q. Okay. So your assumption about Bozovic is based on an assumption
21 that none of the police units from Serbia was involved in the operations
22 within Bosnia; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. The Republic of Serbia MUP did not enter the territory of
25 Q. And I'm going to press you a bit. I don't disagree with you, but
1 I want to understand precisely how you know that and why you seem to be
2 so certain about that.
3 A. Well, while I was at the watch-tower, our sector extended as far
4 as the bridge that links Bajina Basta and Skelani. And at that location
5 we co-operated with the police from the Republika Srpska MUP on the
6 bridge. We would speak with them, we had contact, and at the watch-tower
7 we were briefed and told that the MUP of the Republic of Serbia didn't
8 cross over there, and this was confirmed at the border crossing by the
9 policemen who worked there.
10 Q. I get the impression that this was a discussion -- let me put it
12 Why -- why was this a point of discussion? Was it -- would it
13 have been something highly unusual if the Serbian police had crossed into
15 A. No, naturally, it would have been unusual. Of course, the
16 Serbian police, if they had entered the territory of another state, well,
17 that would have been unusual, because there was nothing for them to do
18 there. So there was no need for them to cross over.
19 Q. Now, I'm going to come back to the Serbian police in a short
20 while, but I just want to just finish with your knowledge of the special
21 brigades and their involvement with the VRS.
22 MR. JORDASH: If I can return, Your Honours, to P2091 under seal.
23 This is JF-030 again.
24 Q. This witness, Mr. Plahuta, testified that Mladic wanted to create
25 a special VRS unit like the 72nd Brigade.
1 MR. JORDASH: That's paragraph 61, 62.
2 Q. And to -- to summarise: Members of the 72nd Brigade were
3 employed to train special -- a special unit of the VRS.
4 Do you know anything about that?
5 A. No. There's nothing I could say about that.
6 Q. And at paragraph 68, the witness also testified that members of
7 the VRS and MUP of the Republika Srpska were trained by the SAJ
8 anti-terrorist unit in Batajnica?
9 Do you know anything about that?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Okay. Now I want to move on, then, to what you know about the --
12 or specific parts of your knowledge about the Serbian MUP involvement in
13 Bajina Basta.
14 MR. JORDASH: Could we have, please, on the screen P599. I think
15 it's under seal.
16 Q. Now just take a moment or two to read this.
17 MR. JORDASH: And the next page, please.
18 Q. You've read that?
19 A. Yes, I have.
20 Q. Were you aware of this order and this arrangement between the VJ
21 and the Ministry of Interior of Serbia?
22 A. I wasn't aware of this. This was before I became a professional
23 soldier, and I wasn't familiar with this.
24 Q. When you became a professional soldier and were working along the
25 border, were you aware of Serbian MUP involvement along the border, first
1 of all, trying to prevent paramilitary units entering Serbia?
2 Were you aware of that?
3 A. When I was at the watch-tower, before the army started providing
4 security for the border with Bosnia, the MUP, in fact, used to do that,
5 so I know that they tried to crack down on crime, on trafficking over the
6 border, et cetera.
7 Q. The order, at page 1 of the English and B/C/S, talks of the MUP
8 of Serbia creating operations staff to take all necessary measures to
9 prevent the activity of individuals, groups, and other paramilitary
11 Were you aware of these operations staffs being in place by the
12 time you became a professional soldier?
13 A. I know that a MUP staff was established in the MUP building in
14 Bajina Basta.
15 Q. And what did the MUP staff consist of, from what you could see?
16 How many persons involved in this staff?
17 A. I know that the MUP started using premises on the -- in the
18 surroundings. Certain garages, for example. There were quite a few
19 people. I don't know the exact number, but far more than before.
20 Q. And from what you understood of that MUP staff, was it aiming at
21 securing the border and restraining the activities of paramilitary groups
22 in the border within Serbia?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. JORDASH: I'm hesitating, Your Honour, because I'm -- can I
25 just take instructions, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
2 MR. JORDASH:
3 Q. I'm correct that Obrad Stevanovic was the commander of that MUP
4 staff; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He was interviewed by the Prosecution and stated - this is
7 uploaded at 1D05492 - and stated the following. Page 5.
8 "We engage police forces on the line of Prelovo, Dobrun, Strpci,
9 Uvac, Ustibar, Sastavci, Strmac, and Kukorveci."
10 Are you able to confirm that, indeed, the MUP staff did engage
11 these police forces along this line to protect the border within Serbia?
12 A. I think they did do that, because Uvac, it's a little further
13 south from where we were, but I think the MUP protected the border there.
14 I don't think the army had a sufficient number of men. And the MUP
15 covered part of the border there.
16 Q. Did you see that, or did you hear it? I want to understand how
17 you know this.
18 A. I wasn't there, but that's what they said at our watch-tower.
19 Because in Bajina Basta there was still a competition for professional
20 soldiers, as not a sufficient number of men had registered for that
22 Q. So it was your understanding that the Serbian police were
23 engaged, effectively, because the army could not obtain sufficient men to
24 protect the border?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Stevanovic also says in that interview that this sort of
2 engagement lasted up to the end of 1995 and beginning of 1996.
3 Do you know if that's correct?
4 A. I couldn't say exactly.
5 Q. And Stevanovic, at page 2 of this interview -- at page 1. Let me
6 just go back to page 1. That the Bajina Basta staff was formed on the
7 18th of January, 1993. I quote:
8 "That's only two days after the event took place," that he
9 previously described, "when ten persons were killed, 80 wounded, and more
10 than 1500 people fled from Skelani to Serbia."
11 Does that sound about right to you?
12 A. Yes. The staff was formed after the attack on Skelani.
13 Q. And that, according to Stevanovic, was what gave rise to a
14 training camp being formed on Tara for the training of the police with
15 the assignments, and I quote, "that took place, if, in cases, for the
16 case if the armed conflict would be spread from Bosnia to Serbia and
17 which would allow the police to prepare to carry out such duties or
18 activities in these -- in such circumstances."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then Stevanovic goes on to say:
21 "Since bearing" --
22 MR. JORDASH: Your Honours, page 1 and 2.
23 Q. "Since bearing the fact that I was Chief of Staff of the staff in
24 Bajina Basta, I informed the head of the sector of this problem and that
25 was Mr. Stojicic. And he informed me that he would talk to the
1 authorised civil and military authorised bodies in the RS in order to
2 make an agreement along with the authorities in the RS crossing the
4 And then he says that the Stojicic he's referring to is
5 Radovan Stojicic.
6 Can you confirm that this is the way it happened from what you
7 understood: Stevanovic contacted Stojicic, Stojicic made the
8 arrangements for the MUP staff and training camp on Tara.
9 Do you know that?
10 A. Yes. Stojicic authorised the establishment of that training
11 centre. And, yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And then Stevanovic - and then we can finish with this - is
13 asked, page 2:
14 "Yeah, okay. Stojicic at that time was your direct superior as
15 head of RJB."
16 Stevanovic says:
17 "Yes. The minister then decided -- the then-minister decided
18 that Stojsic be my superior officer. I think the minister was
20 Was that your understanding of Sokolovic's role in all of this?
21 A. Well, I wouldn't know exactly whether it was Sokolovic, but
22 perhaps it was.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... okay. Fair enough. I won't
24 push you on that.
25 MR. JORDASH: Could I just take instructions, and I think I'm
1 nearly finished.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Jordash.
3 MR. JORDASH: No further questions.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
5 MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
7 Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the witness,
8 Ms. Harbour?
9 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Plahuta, you'll now be cross-examined by
11 Ms. Harbour. Ms. Harbour is counsel for the Prosecution.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Harbour:
13 Q. Mr. Plahuta, yesterday you testified that you trained at
14 Mount Tara and then at Lipovica with a group of five people and these
15 included yourself and also someone you called Sale.
16 What were the names of the other three people?
17 A. Boris Plahuta, my brother, was there. There was someone called
18 Slavisa. And the fourth man, I can't remember his name. He didn't spend
19 much time training. And Sale was the fifth one. He gave us this
21 Q. I'd like to talk to you now about your interactions with and
22 knowledge of Mr. Franko Simatovic.
23 You testified yesterday that you saw Mr. Simatovic for the first
24 time in Bajina Basta in March 1993 on the terrace of the Drina hotel.
25 And you said that your colleague at the watch-tower told you that this
1 was "Franko Simatovic, an operations officer in the State Security
2 Service, and he had said that he come there in order to set up electronic
3 surveillance system."
4 Was set up an electronic surveillance system a publicly known
6 A. No, it was not. It was not a publicly known fact. But the army,
7 or, we, at the watch-tower, did not have such a system in place at the
8 time, and the soldiers were discussing the situation and goings-on and
9 there were five or six of us there on that occasion having a drink, and
10 one of my colleagues told me that about him. I don't know how he knew
11 him, since I did not, and I can't tell you any more -- anything more than
12 that. That's what I remember he told me.
13 Q. Do you remember viewing a photo yesterday of Mr. Simatovic and a
14 woman, which is now admitted as Exhibit D862?
15 A. I remember.
16 Q. If you'd like us to call up the photo, we can. I don't know if
17 it's necessary. I would just like to know if you recognise the woman in
18 the photo.
19 A. I didn't recognise her. No, I don't know her.
20 Q. You've told us that the second time you saw Mr. Simatovic was in
21 Petrova Gora in 1995. When precisely was this, if you recall?
22 A. I can't remember specifically on what date I saw him, but I think
23 it may have been late May or around that time. I can't recall the date.
24 In late May, in any case.
25 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Stanisic in Petrova Gora?
1 A. No, I did not.
2 Q. When you saw Mr. Simatovic in Petrova Gora, you testified that he
3 told you that he was an operative who was sent to unify the work of
4 people working at the communications systems.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think my learned
7 friend misquoted. I cleared it up in the transcript who it was who said
8 that. I would kindly ask my learned friend to check the answer first and
9 then quote correctly.
10 MS. HARBOUR: I apologise.
11 Q. Mr. Karapandza told you that Mr. Simatovic was sent to unify the
12 work of people working at the communications systems.
13 These communications systems needed to be unified because people
14 from different units under the Pauk Command were using them; is that
16 A. Yes. They had to unify their work because there were people
17 rotating, as they couldn't be in the field all the time. That was
18 probably the reason why.
19 Q. Was that the only time you -- oh, excuse me.
20 Did you speak with Mr. Simatovic at Petrova Gora?
21 A. I did not. Perhaps we exchanged a few words as I was filling up
22 his tank, and we introduced ourselves, but that was the extent of it.
23 Q. After you left Petrova Gora in July 1995, you didn't see
24 Mr. Simatovic again until you were in Pajzos, and in Pajzos you had no
25 contact with each other; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. After you left Pajzos in December 1995, when was the next time
3 you saw Mr. Simatovic?
4 A. In 1996, during the ceremony.
5 Q. Which ceremony are you referring to?
6 A. When the other unit was established, the unit we discussed.
7 Shortly after that.
8 Q. This was not the same ceremony you testified about yesterday
9 where you met Vasilije Mijovic for the first time; right?
10 A. Yes. I saw Vasilije Mijovic there for the first time.
11 Q. Just for clarification: I believe yesterday we were discussing
12 that ceremony as being in 1997. Was that actually in 1996?
13 A. No, no. The ceremony took place in 1997. What I meant to say in
14 my answer is that I saw him when the unit was formed, and then shortly
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The answer is unclear.
17 MS. HARBOUR:
18 Q. The interpreters did not -- were not able to fully understand
19 your answer.
20 When you say that you "saw him when the unit was formed, and then
21 shortly there [sic] afterwards," did you mean to say that you saw
22 Mr. Simatovic when the unit was formed in 1996?
23 A. No. I didn't see him in 1996. I saw him in 1997 at the
25 Q. That's clear. Thank you. And you did not see him again until
2 A. I couldn't comment on that because I have not been given
3 permission by my state to discuss it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The question simply was whether you had seen
5 Mr. Simatovic since 1997.
6 Now, what is there in this question -- and we could move into
7 private session if you would wish to do that. What is there in that
8 question that would be outside the scope of what your -- have been given
9 permission to, apart from whether that is binding upon this Court.
10 Would you prefer to move in private session?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but I'd rather not
12 make a mistake and that it be misunderstood later on.
13 I saw him in 1998 when my brother was buried. That was the
14 following time I saw him.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Harbour.
16 MR. JORDASH: May we take a break, Your Honour, please?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break. And we resume at a quarter
18 to 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.
22 MS. HARBOUR: Could I ask that we move briefly into private
23 session, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MS. HARBOUR:
4 Q. Mr. Plahuta, how did your brother Boris die?
5 A. He was killed in 1998 in Kosovo.
6 Q. Under whose command was he at that time?
7 A. The then-Commander Legija, or Milorad Ulemek.
8 MS. HARBOUR: Could I ask that we move back into open session
10 JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MS. HARBOUR:
15 Q. I'd now like to focus on your time in the Uzice Corps of the VJ
16 in 1992 and 1993.
17 You've told us that you were transferred to the Perucac
18 watch-tower, and you've told us that your job was to protect the state
19 border, and your duties included patrolling along the border by the Drina
21 By "patrolling," do you mean that you walked or drove along the
23 A. We walked along the border.
24 Q. Aside from patrols, you were also a sniper during this time;
1 A. Yes. I did have a sniper rifle.
2 Q. What were your targets as a sniper based in the Perucac
4 A. We did not have targets. It was standard procedure to have a
5 sharpshooter in any patrol accompanied by another two members. It was a
6 regular activity.
7 Q. What was it used it for? The sniper shooter.
8 A. Of course, to defend the border in case of immediate danger
9 either to us or the country.
10 Q. What MUP of Serbia units were involved in border control?
11 A. From the police station in Bajina Basta.
12 Q. You said earlier that at your watch-tower the soldiers and
13 officers had to be kept up to speed regarding the activities of forces
14 and of police.
15 In order for you to carry out your border control tasks, you were
16 no doubt fully familiar with the activities and responsibilities of all
17 of the units along the border area where you were stationed; correct?
18 A. Yes. That's how it ought to have been.
19 Q. This was for the entire time that you were in the Uzice Corps; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, the last -- the previous answer, "Yes.
23 That's how it ought to have been," leaves some doubt as to how it really
24 was. Could you please clarify that.
25 MS. HARBOUR:
1 Q. Mr. Plahuta, when I asked if you were fully familiar with the
2 activities and responsibilities of all of the units along the border area
3 where you were stationed, you said: "That's how it ought to have been."
4 Can you clarify. Is that how it was? Or were their exceptions?
5 A. Well, we were informed about police patrols. They did it in
6 vehicles. They would provide some control or check-points of theirs to
7 us. They informed us of whether they would stop at a certain location or
8 not, from where they had a good vantage point between the two republics.
9 This was in order to avoid friendly fire from us lest we encountered each
10 other, especially at night.
11 As regards the territory in our watch-tower area, we were
12 informed of the police forces moving about. That is correct.
13 Q. What border crossings would you have been informed about?
14 A. From the bridge at Skelani, from that border crossing, up to the
15 lake at Perucac.
16 Q. If you know, how many border crossings were there -- how many
17 places were there to cross the border between the bridge at Skelani and
18 the lake at Perucac?
19 A. There were two places where one could cross by boat, although, at
20 that time, they were not allowed to move from one side to the other.
21 Only those two places had boat connections, so to speak.
22 Q. And how many places were there to cross by land? or over a
24 A. One could cross a bridge at Skelani and across the dam of the
25 hydroelectric plant at Perucac.
1 Q. You must have received regular information about any issues or
2 problems with border control at the border -- these border crossings in
3 addition to the Perucac dam and the Skelani bridge crossing; is that
5 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question fully.
6 Q. If there were any problems encountered at any of the border
7 crossings in your sector, were you informed about them?
8 A. Well, I don't think we would be informed all the time. Perhaps
9 on occasion. Because it was the police who was in charge of border
10 crossings, first and foremost.
11 Q. You've told us that -- about certain elements of the Uzice Corps
12 Special Forces that crossed over the territory of Skelani after the
13 attack by the ABiH forces in January 1993. Can you just confirm that you
14 never crossed over that border in the operations following that attack?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. You've testified that police forces did not cross over, and at
17 transcript page 19313, you said you were:
18 "... in contact all the time with the police so I know -- I'm a
19 hundred per cent sure that what I'm saying is true."
20 Today you've reiterated this a few times. Just so we are
21 completely clear on your evidence: You've said that you're a hundred per
22 cent sure that Serbian MUP forces did not cross over into Skelani in
23 January 1993. Are you also a hundred per cent sure that there were no
24 Serbian MUP units already in Skelani?
25 A. There were no Serbian MUP forces there. When we came across
1 police patrols before the attack, it's just that there were fewer of them
2 at the time, but, still, we met, we always discussed what was going on on
3 it's other side of the Drina, and they never mentioned that they crossed
4 over. They would usually that they didn't know what was going on, since
5 it was out of their jurisdiction. They had nothing to do with the other
7 I never heard any of their members mentioning any Serbian MUP
8 forces crossing the border.
9 Q. Are you also 100 per cent sure that no Serbian MUP units
10 participated in the operations in eastern Bosnia while you were stationed
11 on the border?
12 A. Yes. Such forces did not take part ever. The officers at the
13 watch-tower never mentioned any MUP forces crossing the border, and I
14 have never heard any policemen whom we met on patrols say that any MUP
15 forces crossed over into the other republic.
16 Q. During the combat operations, people were wounded. Wounded
17 combatants were brought over the border from Bosnia into Serbia for
18 treatment; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. They were treated in the hospital in Bajina Basta?
21 A. Yes, that's where they were treated.
22 Q. During your direct examination, you were asked about a number of
23 Drina Corps and Uzice Corps documents related to operations in late
24 January 1993. Is it correct that the Drina Corps and the Uzice Corps
25 were both part of OG Drina?
1 A. I wouldn't know exactly, but it is possible that they were
2 together because Drina is the name of the river there. So perhaps the
3 name they were given was based on the name of the river. But I'm not
4 quite sure whether the same designation was used for them.
5 Q. Some of the documents that were put to you during your direct
6 examination actually state that OG Drina included the Drina Corps and the
7 Uzice Corps. You didn't know anything about this at the time?
8 A. I didn't know that they went by the same name, no.
9 Q. I don't mean to confuse you. Just from your last answer, I'm
10 concerned that I may have.
11 So just to clarify this point, not to belabour it: When I say
12 "OG Drina," I refer to "Operation Group Drina." So I'm not saying that
13 the Uzice Corps went by the same name as the Drina Corps.
14 Was that clear to you?
15 A. I don't know. I'm not quite clear about this question about the
16 name and about Drina operations group.
17 Perhaps you could be a little more precise.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, perhaps --
19 Were you aware of a operational group in which both the
20 Drina Corps and the Uzice Corps were participating?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Harbour.
23 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Dragoljub Ojdanic was the commander and Dusan Loncar was the
25 Chief of Staff of the Uzice Corps during your time in the Uzice Corps; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Dragoljub Ojdanic was the commander of the Uzice Corps, but I'm
3 not sure who the staff commander was.
4 Q. The Independent Skelani Brigade participated under the
5 Drina Corps in the operations that you've testified about in early -- or
6 in late January 1993; is that correct?
7 A. It's probably correct, that they acted together. They probably
8 co-ordinated their action, so one could probably say that it is correct.
9 Q. Well, the Independent Skelani Brigade is a brigade within the
10 Drina Corps. So my question is whether you know that this particular
11 brigade participated in the co-ordinated actions of the Drina Corps and
12 Uzice Corps in January 1993.
13 A. Yes. The Skelani Brigade did participate in the combat in
14 January 1993.
15 Q. And the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade also participated in
16 these operations; correct?
17 A. I wouldn't know whether it was the light infantry brigade or
18 whether it had some other name, but I know that they participated on the
19 other side. I know that the Army of Republika Srpska participated in
20 those operations from Bratunac.
21 Q. Today the Stanisic Defence has asked you a number of questions
22 about the attacks by the forces under Naser Oric on the Skelani area, and
23 I would like to explore some of the prior attacks that occurred before
24 the ABiH's attacks in 1993.
25 MS. HARBOUR: Can we please have P385 on the monitors.
1 Q. This is Operational Directive number 4 of the Main Staff of the
2 Army of the Republika Srpska, dated 19 November 1992. And this is a
3 directive by Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic.
4 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have the bottom of page five in the
5 English version and the top of e-court page 11 in the B/C/S version.
6 Q. I apologise, this is difficult to read in the original version,
7 but it says:
8 "The Drina Corps: From its present positions, its main forces
9 shall persistently defend Visegrad (the dam), Zvornik, and the corridor,
10 while the rest of its forces in the wider Podrinje region shall exhaust
11 the enemy, inflict the heaviest possible losses on him, and force him to
12 leave the Birac, Zepa, and Gorazde areas together with the Muslim
14 Based on your experience in the Uzice Corps while that corps was
15 participating in operations in Bosnia with the Drina Corps, were you
16 aware that one of the tasks given by Ratko Mladic in November of 1992 was
17 to force the Muslim population to leave this portion of eastern Bosnia?
18 A. I'm not familiar with this. Gorazde, Zepa, Visegrad, if I have
19 understood you well, all these towns were outside our area of activity,
20 so I don't really know what they did up there. That's about 50 or
21 60 kilometres away from our sector, so I wasn't aware of anything of this
23 I know nothing about this.
24 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have Exhibit P392 on the monitors.
25 And I'm interested in page 3 in the English and the B/C/S versions.
1 Q. While we're waiting for this to come up, Mr. Plahuta, I would
2 just tell you that what we are about to look at is an excerpt from a
3 notebook kept by Ratko Mladic, and you viewed a different excerpt of this
4 notebook yesterday. And the particular entry that we'll be looking at is
5 from Sunday, the 28th of February, 1993. The location is Tara. And the
6 caption of the entry is:
7 "Plan of action in Operation Udar."
8 You are familiar with Operation Udar, aren't you?
9 A. No, I'm not. I'm not familiar with Operation Udar.
10 Q. All right. Let's look further down in the entry where Mladic
11 lists those that are present. He lists Panic, himself, Ojdanic, Loncar,
12 Tkac, Frenki, and two men from the MUP.
13 Do you know that Zivota Panic was the chief of the Main Staff of
14 the Army of Yugoslavia at that time?
15 A. Yes. Panic was the chief of the Main Staff, yes.
16 Q. And you knew that Ratko Mladic was the chief of the Main Staff of
17 the VRS during this time; correct?
18 A. Yes, I knew that.
19 Q. You've testified that you saw Mr. Simatovic for the first time in
20 Bajina Basta in March 1993 where he was concerned about setting up an
21 electronic surveillance system.
22 Did you know that in late February 1993 he was involved with your
23 superiors from the Uzice Corps and the VRS and VJ leadership in planning
24 an operation?
25 A. No, I didn't know that.
1 Q. Further down in the entry, the first two lines say:
2 "The units are in certain sectors and garrisons.
3 "In Osmace, Jadar and Kragljivoda use PO and in Kragljivoda use
5 You've testified that you were not familiar with Operation Udar;
6 however, we see that Osmace is among the villages where the Uzice Corps
7 was carrying out operations in January 1993, and, in fact, you marked
8 this on a map and said that you were very familiar with the Uzice Corps's
9 operations in this area. Did you know that fighting in Osmace continued
10 after the Uzice Corps's January operations?
11 A. I didn't know that because it was further away from the border
12 areas so we didn't receive regular information about what was being done
13 in the depth of the territory of the neighbouring state, neighbouring
15 Q. During your direct examination, when you marked on a map the
16 positions and various villages where the Uzice Corps and the Drina Corps
17 were engaged in operations, is it your testimony that you actually were
18 not familiar with what went on during those operations?
19 A. When I marked the territory, that was immediately after the
20 attack on Skelani, when the Uzice Corps crossed over there with the
21 special corps in order to liberate the territory. I can see that this is
22 a later date. When that territory that I marked on the map was
23 liberated, there were no longer any threats in that territory for the
24 Republic of Serbia, so we didn't receive more detailed information in
25 February on that date, let's say. We didn't receive more detailed
1 information on action undertaken there and on who had remained active in
2 that area.
3 Q. I take it your evidence was that by late February 1993 there were
4 no threats to the Serb forces in that area?
5 A. In our sector, there were no direct threats. There were indirect
6 threats. There were always such threats. For example, if that part of
7 eastern Bosnia remained in the hands of Naser Oric's forces, there was
8 still an indirect threat to the town itself and to the territory of
9 Serbia in general. But there wasn't a direct threat to the watch-tower,
10 so we didn't receive any such detailed information.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that there's
13 something missing in the transcript, perhaps an important part of the
14 answer, which is the part that concerns eastern Bosnia. In fact, the
15 witness said something about the layout of the terrain, and that is not
16 recorded in the transcript.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we seek -- is that, Mr. Bakrac, page 33,
18 lines 11 and 12? Is that where you think something is missing?
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in fact, it's 12/13.
20 Or, rather, 13 and 14.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... okay. Yes.
22 Witness, there's a chance that part of your answer was lost in
23 transcribing. I'll read to you what is now on the transcript, and please
24 add anything you have said which is not in the transcript as I read it.
25 The transcript reads: "For example, if that part of eastern
1 Bosnia remained in the hands of Naser Oric's forces, there was still an
2 indirect threat to the town itself and to the territory of Serbia in
4 Up till here, anything missing?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's correct.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, and the interpreter
7 apologises for omitting to mention it: The witness also mentioned the
8 elevated nature of the terrain.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's apparently what you'd like to have
10 added, Mr. Bakrac.
11 Then he mentioned that in what context? because that's a bit
12 unclear to me. About the territory? Or ...
13 Being part of the threat due to the elevated terrain, is that
14 what you said?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I wanted to say.
16 These forces in Osmace and Jadar, that terrain is evaluated, more
17 evaluated than Bajina Basta, so it would be easier to fire on
18 Bajina Basta from there than from some other position, or it would be
19 easier to fire on the territory of Serbia in general.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That being clarified, you may proceed, Ms. Harbour.
21 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 6394 on the screen.
22 Q. This is a military document entitled:
23 "Analysis of the Execution of Combat Operations in the Operation
24 Encoded Udar."
25 We've just discussed the planning, or part of the planning, of
1 Operation Udar in the context of Mladic's notebook, and now we're turning
2 to a document that addresses the conclusion of Operation Udar.
3 Moving to page 2, we see a list of the forces engaged in
4 Operation Udar. In the last group, under (a), from the corps, we see a
5 list of forces for active-combat operations.
6 MS. HARBOUR: And the ones that I'm interested in are on the next
7 page in the English version.
8 Q. The Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade is listed, or the 1st Brlpbr,
9 and the Skelani Independent Battalion is also listed. These are the two
10 units that I asked you about previously which you testified also
11 participated in the co-ordinated operations in January 1993; correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 MS. HARBOUR: If we could have the bottom half of page 2 in the
14 B/C/S version and the middle of page 3 in the English version.
15 Q. I'll read:
16 "With Operation Udar, the liberation of the Serbian territories
17 in the central Podrinje area was completed, while the enemy was squeezed
18 into enclaves whose dimensions were determined with the engagement of
19 UN forces (UNPROFOR)."
20 Based on your previous testimony, Mr. Plahuta, this operation was
21 not about liberating the eastern Bosnia region that had been the subject
22 of the January 1993 operations because that had already been liberated;
23 is that correct?
24 A. The operation in January 1993 was conducted to liberate that part
25 of eastern Bosnia and drive out Naser Oric's forces from that area.
1 But I don't really understand your question; could you please
2 repeat it?
3 Q. You testified that the areas, particularly the area of Osmace
4 which was evaluated, was no longer under a threat after January 1993,
5 which is why you no longer had a need to receive information about
6 operations in that area.
7 A. That's correct.
8 MS. HARBOUR: I would like to tender this document as a
9 Prosecution Exhibit.
10 MR. JORDASH: Sorry, can I just have a moment or two to reflect
11 on that?
12 JUDGE ORIE: It will be marked for identification.
13 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6394 will receive number P3118,
16 Your Honours.
17 MR. JORDASH: Sorry could I just clarify: Is it the
18 Prosecution's case - I just want to be clear on this - that Osmace was
19 liberated in January 1993 and remained liberated through until past
20 February/March of 1993?
21 MS. HARBOUR: Those questions were based upon the witness's
22 answers, and we're seeking to know the extent of his knowledge.
23 MR. JORDASH: But I do think that if it's going to be put to the
24 witness that Osmace was no longer a threat and at some point the
25 Prosecution are going to rely upon that, to say, well, actually what WAS
1 going on in Osmace in -- after January 1993 was forcible transfer, then
2 we ought to know whether that's the Prosecution case or not.
3 And I say that because of the evidence given by JF-030, which I
4 assumed was consistent with the Prosecution case. And if I may refer
5 Your Honours to P2091, under seal, and paragraph 54 through to 56,
6 Your Honours will see why I might have come to the impression that the
7 opposite was, in fact, the Prosecution case.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour.
9 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, the Prosecution's case is that the
10 goal of the operations conducted by the Uzice Corps in January 1993 and
11 the goal of these operations, Operation Udar conducted in February 1993,
12 was to drive the Muslim population out of eastern Bosnia, consistent with
13 Ratko Mladic's order -- sorry, directive in November 1992.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash.
15 MR. JORDASH: Well, I, simply for the record, I note that this
16 is, in our submission, a new case, because the case that they advanced up
17 until this month was that which was consistent with the evidence of
18 JF-030, or that's what we assumed. And JF-030 gave clear evidence in
19 paragraph 54 that it was a combat operation to take Osmace, and, in fact,
20 that combat operation had been directed at combatants.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied against the admission into
24 The Chamber relies on the -- of course, the main lines of the
25 Prosecution's case, and not every word spoken by a witness which is
1 sought is -- which is sought and admitted into evidence would not
2 immediately change the Prosecution's case.
3 Therefore, it's not a reason at this moment not to admit this
4 document into evidence.
5 Madam Registrar, was number already assigned to it?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Number P3118 was assigned.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then P3118 is admitted into evidence.
8 MS. HARBOUR:
9 Q. Mr. Plahuta, you -- I -- I explained to the Chamber and to the
10 Defence what the Prosecution's case is. I'd like to put it directly to
11 you to give you a chance to comment.
12 Our case is that the goal of these operations conducted by the
13 Uzice Corps in January 1993 and this further Operation Udar in
14 February 1993 was to drive the Muslim population out of eastern Bosnia,
15 consistent with General -- Lieutenant-General Mladic's November 1992
16 directive. And it is also our position that Mr. Simatovic's attendance
17 at the meeting documented in Mladic's notebook shows that Mr. Simatovic
18 participated in the planning of Operation Udar with knowledge of its
19 purpose along with the highest level of VJ and VRS leadership.
20 Are you able to comment on this?
21 A. As I have said, the Uzice Corps crossed the Drina in order to
22 fight, and not drive the Muslim population out. They wanted to drive
23 Naser Oric's forces out of the area, as they presented an immediate
24 danger to the Republic of Serbia.
25 As for Operation Udar, I've already said that I cannot comment,
1 since we were not informed of that -- about that operation.
2 As regards the planning meeting attended by the military
3 leadership and Franko Simatovic, it was beyond our level of knowledge. I
4 wasn't informed at all with who planned the operation and how. We had no
5 information to that effect. Simply put: We were simple border soldiers
6 who were not informed about such things concerning the military
7 leadership and the meeting described in Ratko Mladic's diary.
8 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, I see that your microphone is on. I
9 was wondering if there's -- no. Okay.
10 Q. Mr. Plahuta, you've testified at length about operations in the
11 Skelani area that involved the VRS Drina Corps and also the Uzice Corps
12 and, specifically, the 63rd Parachute Unit, the 72nd Special Brigade and
13 the Guards Brigade, all of whom you testified wore red berets. And
14 you've been very certain that there were no Serbian MUP units
15 participating in these operations, and this is a point that I would like
16 to explore with you.
17 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 6491 on the screen.
18 For the record, this was a document that was cited in the
19 military expert report that the Simatovic Defence has withdrawn, and it's
20 also on the Simatovic Defence bar table documents. And on the bar table
21 documents it's listed as 65 ter 2D1607. We assigned a number
22 65 ter number simple so we could upload the translation.
23 Q. This is a report of the Skelani Independent Battalion, dated
24 25 February 1993, and it was sent to the Drina Corps Command and signed
25 by Major Ilic.
1 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please turn to page 2 in the English and
2 in the B/C/S. And we're concerned with item 3.
3 Q. Under item 3, training and education, let's look at the last
4 bullet point, which reads:
5 "Regarding the training of recruits, somewhat more was
6 accomplished in this area. A unit of the MUP of Serbia - the
7 Red Berets - was stationed in Skelani as nearly all of the recruits
8 received training in that centre for a period between one to three
10 You did not know about this, did you, Mr. Plahuta?
11 A. No, I did not. This is the first time I hear about it.
12 MS. HARBOUR: Could we look now at the section entitled "Mobile
13 Readiness" which is on page 4 in the English and on page 6 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. The last two sentences of this section -- are we -- sorry.
15 There we go.
16 The last two sentences of this section read as follows:
17 "Between 27 January 1993 and 25 February 1993, about 500 ...
18 conscripts were rounded up. As a result, the battalion now numbers
19 around 800 soldiers, including two volunteer units (Radicals 60 and
20 Red Berets 80 soldiers) under the command of the battalion."
21 A Red Berets unit of the MUP of Serbia participated with the
22 Skelani Independent Battalion in operations in January 1993; is that
23 correct, Mr. Plahuta?
24 A. I wouldn't know. As far as I can read what is in the document, I
25 am not aware of it. I don't know about the Radicals or the Red Berets
1 and whether they were in the Skelani Battalion. I know the
2 Skelani Battalion existed, but I don't know what kind of structure they
3 had within their establishment formation. Therefore, there's nothing I
4 can say in that regard.
5 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I would now like to tender this
6 document into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
8 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6491 will receive Exhibit P3119,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. HARBOUR: Could I please have Exhibit P399 on the monitors.
14 Q. Mr. Plahuta, the document that I will be showing you is another
15 document from the Skelani Independent Battalion to the Drina Corps
16 Command. This one's dated several months later. And the date is
17 15 May 1993.
18 The title of the document is:
19 "Report on the Establishment of the Units for Special Purposes
20 (Red Berets) of the MUP of Serb in Skelani."
21 In the third paragraph, this report discusses the involvement of
22 soldiers from the Red Berets camp in Jezero and Skelani, including three
23 who were killed. Then they went on to Tara for further training.
24 The documents that you were shown by Mr. Bakrac detail the
25 Uzice Corps participation in operations in Jezero, and you marked this on
1 a map to show us the line where the Uzice Corps and the Drina Corps
2 linked up.
3 Do you maintain that you did not know about the Red Berets
4 participating in the operations in Jezero?
5 A. As I have said already, I didn't know what the composition of the
6 Skelani Corps was. Therefore, I can't comment on it.
7 Q. At the bottom of page 1 in the English and the middle of the page
8 in B/C/S, it states: "The unit was under the command of Bozovic."
9 You were asked today whether you knew if Bozovic or the Serbian
10 PJM had anything to do with operations in March 1993, and you replied:
11 "No, they had nothing to do with that."
12 And then you were asked:
13 "How do you say that with such certainty."
14 To which you relied:
15 "Well, if it's the special police unit from Serbia, I know that
16 they didn't cross over into the territory of Bosnia ... I know that."
17 And this is at temporary page -- transcript page 12 from today.
18 Was it your assumption, or do you have knowledge, that Bozovic
19 was affiliated with the Serbian MUP?
20 A. No, I don't know that. I don't know. I can't comment. I was
21 only discussing the MUP of Serbia. I know they did not cross over, from
22 my discussions with other policemen.
23 I don't know about Bozovic. I'm not familiar with him, and I do
24 not necessarily link him with the MUP of Serbia. As far as I know.
25 Q. You're testifying today that you're not familiar with him;
1 however, yesterday you testified at length about his command over a
2 tactical group in Pauk. And then when you reviewed certain JATD
3 payments, you testified with no uncertainty that he was not a member of
4 the JATD.
5 It is the --
6 A. No, he was not a JATD member.
7 When I met him, he commanded the TG3 in Velika Kladusa. I know
8 they were subordinated to the Pauk Command. As far as I know, they
9 belonged to that tactical group. I believe it was the Army of
10 Republika Srpska. As far as I know.
11 I didn't spend much time there with them in order to know
12 anything more than that, but I do know they were not part of the JATD. I
13 mean, Bozovic personally was not in the JATD.
14 Q. It is the Prosecution case that, as this document shows, Bozovic
15 was the commander of a Serbian DB special purpose unit in 1993 and he
16 continued commanding Serbian DB units, including in Pauk, all the way
17 through 1995.
18 You've commented largely that you don't know about Bozovic's
19 affiliations in 1993, but I wanted to put this case to you to see if you
20 wanted to give any additional comments.
21 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to object, but maybe I missed this in the
22 document, but I don't think that the document says that Bozovic was a
23 commander of a special -- DB special purpose unit at this time.
24 It suggests that he was in some way connected to the Ministry of
25 Interior of Serbia and his group was known as the Red Berets, which, I
1 think, is somewhat different.
2 MS. HARBOUR: The title of the document is "... Units for Special
3 Purposes (Red Berets) of the MUP of Serbia ..."
4 Is the issue with the fact that I said "DB" rather than "MUP"?
5 MR. JORDASH: Precisely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: This having been clarified, please proceed.
7 MS. HARBOUR: If we could now have the next -- oh, sorry.
8 Q. Actually, Mr. Plahuta, I wanted to give you a chance to comment
9 on that.
10 It is the Prosecution's case that Bozovic was a commander of a
11 Serbian DB unit. This document says that he was a commander of a Serbian
12 MUP unit. If you would like to make any comment?
13 A. I wouldn't. I really don't know of him being such a commander.
14 I know that he never appeared in the JATD unit.
15 As of my arrival in the JATD onwards, I have no knowledge of him
16 being a member.
17 Q. Just a few more points that I'd like to look at in this document
18 with you.
19 MS. HARBOUR: If we could have the next page in English.
20 Q. I'll continue reading:
21 "In addition to apprehending persons who refuse to go to combat,
22 they also control the bridge."
23 And this is referring to this Red Berets unit under the command
24 of Bozovic.
25 Q. You were guarding the border during this time, and you've
1 testified about which VJ forces crossed the bridge between Bajina Basta
2 and Skelani, and you've testified about which units were involved in
3 control of the bridge. Isn't it true that a Red Berets unit had control
4 of the bridge?
5 A. I wouldn't know. On the Bosnian side, there was the Skelani
6 battalion -- sorry, brigade. They guarded the border crossing on that
7 side. I don't know which unit of theirs was in charge of that, though.
8 Q. I'll continue reading in the document:
9 "They took part in combat operations at Kragljivoda. Afterwards,
10 they took part in the mopping up of the terrain around Radzenovice, when
11 two soldiers from the unit, originally from Novi Sad, were killed."
12 In the Mladic notebook entry that we looked at a few minutes ago,
13 we saw a reference to Kragla Voda in the context of Operation Udar. And
14 here we see a reference to this unit, this Red Berets unit, participating
15 in combat at a place called Kragla Voda?
16 I put it to you, Mr. Plahuta, that the truth is that
17 Mr. Simatovic did not just participate in the planning of the
18 counter-attack against Muslim forces but rather the unit that he and
19 Bozovic commanded actually took part in that fighting; is that correct?
20 A. As I have said already, in terms of Operation Udar, I can't offer
21 a comment. We were not informed. And I don't know what the area was
22 that was encompassed by the operation.
23 As for Bozovic and Frenki, I really don't know. I never heard
24 about that and was never told about that by anyone. It is my opinion
25 that they did not take part.
1 Perhaps someone would have told me something in the unit, some of
2 the members, that they did take part. But as for the JATD, no one
3 participated in the crossing over and attack on Naser Oric's forces, as
4 far as I could learn in the unit.
5 So I don't know.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to interrupt my
9 learned friend. I simply wanted to mention to the Court that the English
10 translation expands a bit the Serbian original. There is an abbreviation
11 which is rather loosely translated in the English without a specific
12 meaning being ascribed to the abbreviation.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you question that, and that
14 your comment whether it's loosely translated or not, that, first of all,
15 we have to have the translation verified. That's the neutral way of
16 introducing it.
17 Now, I do not know what abbreviation you referred to.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the last paragraph,
19 beginning with: "They returned to the camp on the 14th of May."
20 It is -- the abbreviation appears in that sentence. In the
21 Serbian we only have the abbreviation; whereas in the English translation
22 there is an expansion.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look.
24 Are you referring to the abbreviation "SBS" which appears in that
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Just immediately
2 after, in the same line.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then after the SBS, we get ... is that
4 "MUP RS"?
5 Yes, MUP RS --
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... which --
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We came across, as you know -- well,
9 in this translation, this seems to be interpreted -- translated loosely.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We are seeking the assistance of the interpreters.
11 We see "MUP RS," which is translated as "MUP of Serbia." MUP, Ministry
12 of the Interior.
13 Now, it is my experience that MUP RS could, depending on the
14 context, could mean the MUP of the Republika Srpska. At the same time,
15 RS also, sometimes, is used as an abbreviation for the Republic of
16 Serbia. That is, Serbia.
17 What I just said, have the interpreters any comment on that?
18 THE INTERPRETER: We believe your reading of the abbreviations is
19 correct, and the exact reference needs to be determined by the context.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 That is now on the record, Mr. Bakrac. It is still to be
22 considered, then, whether the context hints at the Republic of Serbia or
23 the Republika Srpska, which is an entity in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. HARBOUR: I would note that in the B/C/S original in the
1 heading of the document it says "MUP Srbije," if that assists.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you are already hinting at the context.
3 Mr. Bakrac, if there's any observation you'd like to make in
4 terms of context, you have an opportunity to do so.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I could
6 say something about the context now or later on during re-direct.
7 As regards the key sentence, the context is completely different.
8 There is a mention of the SBS command, which I believe stands for the
9 Skelani Battalion, and it is stated that they could be commanded by the
10 MUP RS. And that's what they were told as they were heading back to
11 Skelani. From the text just preceding that area, we see that they
12 arrived from another part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore, it
13 remains an open question within the given context which MUP this actually
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look at the document before we take a
17 The document is about a unit of the Republic of Serbia. Is
18 that -- do you agree with that, Mr. Bakrac?
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That's what's in
20 the heading.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the part we are reading from, that immediately
22 preceding what happened the 14th of May, refers to the unit. Is that a
23 unit in the context different from the unit in the title of this report,
24 in your understanding?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. With your leave, I
1 will discuss the details in re-direct, since -- well, I don't want to say
2 anything in advance, but perhaps I could deal with it that way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, but you issued -- you raised an issue of
4 translation which you said was loose. We then established that it
5 depends on the context what is the proper translation. So we're not
6 talking about testimony anymore, but we're -- at this moment we are
7 exploring the accuracy of the translation chosen here in the context, and
8 I want to briefly explore that before you ask further questions about it.
9 My question was: "The unit recently stayed in ..." that is still
10 the same unit?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It seems be to
12 the same unit. Yes, I'll stop here.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in the next paragraph there is an observation
14 of what was said about the command over that unit.
15 Would you agree with that?
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, would it be logical in this context, where it
18 is said that this unit, which we identified was a MUP of Serbia unit,
19 would it be logical to interpret that they said that only the MUP of the
20 Republika Srpska could be their commander?
21 Would have any logic in this context, compared to that only the
22 MUP of Serbia could be their commander? If we are talking about a unit
23 of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. Because what we are doing -- you
24 raised the matter yourself. What we are doing is looking at the context
25 to find out what the appropriate interpretation is.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, with all
2 due respect, I beg to differ. For example, in the text -- please bear
3 with me. The text above the sentence we are discussing.
4 "All our attempts to return the soldiers of this unit to the
5 Skelani Independent Battalion failed. The unit recently stayed in the
6 dry border area around Visegrad," which is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What does that change to the context I just
8 analysed? That is, what is the logic about a MUP of Serbia unit stating
9 that they only could be commanded by the MUP of Republika Srpska?
10 Is that -- what's your logic in accepting that --
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, and with
12 all due respect, the entire text, in my view, points at the MUP of
13 Republika Srpska, except for the heading, which mentions the MUP of
15 If we go through the whole document, in terms of military
16 conscripts and everything else, it seems to me, in my modest opinion,
17 that the context points at the other body. If we look at the heading,
18 you seem to be correct. But if we exclude the title and look at the text
19 alone, the context points at another direction. That is my modest
20 opinion, Your Honour, and I can examine the detail -- the document in
21 detail during my re-direct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll re-read the document during the break.
23 The translation was not loosely made, but you say is debatable. That is
24 not exactly the same.
25 We take a break and resume --
1 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MS. HARBOUR: Sorry, if I may. In the next section -- session I
4 think that I will get to a portion where I ask the witness about parts of
5 his personnel file. And in fairness to the witness, I thought that I
6 should provided him with the file to review during the break.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If there is no objection, please hand out or have a
8 hard copy handed out to the witness.
9 Could you please read that during the break, Mr. Plahuta, if that
10 is possible, the document. If the usher would assist in giving it to
12 MR. JORDASH: Do we have a translation of that, please?
13 MS. HARBOUR: [Microphone not activated] yes. Yes, it's in
14 e-court. I can get the -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
15 MR. JORDASH: Oh, if it's there -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: I take it the witness will read it in his own
18 We'll take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.
22 MS. HARBOUR:
23 Q. Mr. Plahuta, while we are still on this document, I just have one
24 last question for you.
25 MS. HARBOUR: If we could please turn to page 3 in the English
1 and page 2 in the B/C/S.
2 Q. This is a list of 52 persons from the Skelani municipality area
3 in the Red Berets special-purposes unit. The date on the list is
4 9 April 1993.
5 You grew up in the Bajina Basta area and you were stationed in
6 this area for much of your career, leading up to, during, and following
7 your stint in the Uzice Corps.
8 I would like you to look over this entire list and let us know,
9 first, if you recognise any of the names; and, second, if any of these
10 people were members of the JATD, to your knowledge.
11 So please take your time to read over the list, and let us know
12 when you need to move to a different part of the page or to turn the
14 A. I've read through the page.
15 It's fine. I've read through it all.
16 Q. Did you recognise any of the names on this list?
17 A. I'm familiar with the surnames. There a lot of surnames that
18 come from our area, so to speak. But as for the first names, I think
19 that it's only on the first page that I can recognise
20 Maksimovic, Miroslav. If we're thinking of the same person.
21 But I didn't recognise anyone else as being a member of the JATD,
22 either on the basis of their surnames or of their first names.
23 Q. Is it your testimony that Maksimovic, Miroslav was a member of
24 the JATD?
25 A. If that is the person in question, since a lot of individuals
1 have the same first and last names, that I could recognise
2 Miroslav Maksimovic. I could recognise that name, in fact. And to this
3 day he is a member of the MUP. But I don't know if it's the same person.
4 I don't know his father, whose name is Stevo. That's what it says. But
5 Stevo isn't a name that you encounter frequently in our area. So I
6 couldn't say that the person is the same person, but it's the same first
7 and last name.
8 Q. The person by the name of Maksimovic, Miroslav that you know in
9 the JATD, are you aware of whether he was in a Red Berets unit? During
10 this time-period, I should clarify.
11 A. I wouldn't know whether he was a member at the time. I wasn't a
12 member at the time. I didn't ask him about that. So I don't know what
13 to say. I don't know if this is the individual concerned. It is the
14 same first and last name as that of a member, but I can't say whether
15 this is the person in question and whether this is the -- one of the
16 Red Berets.
17 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, we provided notice in our filing of
18 the 8th of May, 2012, that we would seek to tender a number of the
19 personnel files of the individuals who are listed here as members of the
20 Red Berets special-purpose units from Skelani municipality. I wanted to
21 give the witness an opportunity to comment on any of the individuals that
22 he was familiar with, and I'll leave the tendering of these documents for
23 a rebuttal motion.
24 Could we please --
25 JUDGE ORIE: You wanted just the files to be tendered from the
1 bar table?
2 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the question arises whether you --
4 from a procedural point of not -- or from a procedural point whether it
5 would be, since the witness is here, something you would have to wait for
6 the rebuttal stage. But I've no specific opinion about it, but
7 apparently the Prosecution has decided to wait until that moment. Is
8 that ...
9 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I think in the interests of time, and
10 also because the witness has not identified any that he recognised other
11 than Miroslav Maksimovic, I think it would be more prudent to wait and
12 just file it as a rebuttal motion. But, yes, to rebut this witness's and
13 other Defence evidence led during the Defence case that there were no
14 Serbian MUP units in Skelani.
15 However if either the Chamber or the Defence wishes us to put
16 these documents to this witness, we could do that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think -- you are, I take, introducing that
18 material as a challenge to the credibility or reliability of this
19 witness, which is usually done when the witness is there.
20 Now, I can imagine that you don't want to the put the whole of
21 the personnel files of all these persons to this witness. But perhaps
22 there are intermediary ways, like giving the names and say, Well, there's
23 documentation about this, this, this, and this, do you still -- would
24 that, in any way, change your testimony? which, of course, would the --
25 that's at least something one could consider, rather than to start
1 discussing rebuttal evidence when there's not even further opportunity to
2 ask the witness.
3 And -- and it is directly cross-examining this witness on matters
4 of credibility and reliability. So, therefore, I'm a bit surprised by
5 the postponement of bringing this material, but I -- please consider it
6 and think about it.
7 And, Mr. Jordash, Mr. Bakrac, if the Prosecution would tender
8 those personnel files in order to -- in order -- apparently on the basis
9 of challenging credibility and reliability, would you consider that
10 inappropriate or would you consider this -- from a procedural point. I'm
11 not talking about content. Or would you consider it more appropriate to
12 at least put to the witness any names of the persons of whom the
13 Prosecution apparently intends in the future to -- to tender their
14 personnel files?
15 You may think about it as well. That's ...
16 MR. JORDASH: Well, it's almost impossible to give a full or even
17 an informed answer. Those files, I haven't -- we haven't got full
18 translations of them. We don't know what it is the Prosecution say they
19 show, what it is these men are alleged to have done, and so on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Wouldn't it be a good idea, because otherwise
21 we have a discussion very late on rebuttal, having no opportunity
22 whatsoever that you would sit together, that the Prosecution explains
23 what they would like to do at this moment apparently at the rebuttal
24 stable and then to see whether it would not be from a point of view of
25 procedural economy better to do it right away, and then to at least have
1 an opportunity to ask the witness questions about it, and also to further
2 examine the witness on matters you know the Prosecution wishes to tender
3 in the future?
4 MR. JORDASH: What I would say, aside from the issues that I've
5 just highlighted, is that the first step would be for the Prosecution to
6 indicate whether they say that the witness has knowledge of these people
7 but is declining to provide that knowledge. The witness may not know,
8 and the Prosecution may accept he doesn't know, but nonetheless, they
9 want to -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless --
11 MR. JORDASH: [Overlapping speakers] ... these files.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Refreshing the memory of a witness, of course, is
13 not an uncommon thing to do.
14 MR. JORDASH: But it wouldn't refresh the witness's mind if he --
15 if the Prosecution put the file to -- the witness has said, I don't
16 recognise the name. Putting a file with the name and other details is --
17 is --
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you listened well to me, then I think I said that
19 not perhaps by putting the file to the witness but to tell the witness,
20 We have a file which states that the witness -- no, whatever. And you
21 have to, of course, agree what that file suggests or states. And then to
22 see whether the witness has any recollection on those specific persons.
23 Could be. Could be not.
24 MR. JORDASH: Well, in a way, we're in a difficult position
25 because, as Your Honours know, we object on first principles to the use
1 of this additional evidence.
2 So whether it's for credibility purposes or as fresh evidence for
3 the truth of its contents, we would say the admission of this type of
4 evidence at this stage is fundamentally prejudicial. Whether through the
5 bar table, whether through rebuttal, or whether through cross-examination
6 for credibility.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I see that point. The matter for me is
8 that a discussion which should be -- which we should have now or in two
9 months from now. That's the issue.
10 MR. JORDASH: If the Prosecution say that this witness does know
11 something about these people, then I think that they should put them
12 to -- the files to the witness. We'll object as we always do, and the
13 Prosecution can then use the documents.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If allowed to do so.
15 MR. JORDASH: I'm kind of assuming on past practice.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But never anticipate on decisions not yet been
18 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, no.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But for this discussion it might be important that
20 you check whether there's a translation, that you check what claim the
21 Prosecution makes in relation to that material, and to see whether
22 that -- to see what the real points are, then, which remain in dispute.
23 You have -- we're not sitting tomorrow, so there's some time, at least,
24 to meet.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Plahuta, you've given quite some testimony about border
3 control and the units responsible for controlling the border in the
4 section where you were stationed. And in particular, earlier today, at
5 temporary transcript page 44 to 45, I asked you:
6 "Isn't it true that a Red Berets units had control of the
8 To which you responded:
9 "I wouldn't know. On the Bosnian side, there was the Skelani
10 Battalion -- sorry, brigade. They guarded the border crossing on that
11 side. I don't know which units of theirs was in charge of that, though."
12 MS. HARBOUR: Now, if I could please have 65 ter 6497 on the
14 Q. This is a document from the Skelani Independent Battalion to the
15 Drina Corps Command and the VRS Main Staff Command. The date on the
16 front is a little hard to read, but we can see by the stamp on the second
17 page that it was received on the 20th of June, 1993. And I'm interested
18 in point number 6, which reads:
19 "There have been no new attempts by Frenki's specials to move
20 goods (tractors, technical appliances, weapons, and spare parts) across
21 the bridge, but as a result, on explicit orders from the boss
22 (Mr. Franko), the political and military leadership of Skelani
23 municipality and the Skelani SB have been prohibited from entering the
24 FRY (across the bridge)."
25 Mr. Plahuta, wouldn't the control over who entered the FRY be in
1 the hands of those who controlled the Serbian side of the border?
2 A. On our side, yes. The police from the Bajina Basta
3 Police Station carried out controls. But on the Bosnian side, well, as
4 to who they let through, we weren't responsible for that, and I couldn't
5 tell you anything about that.
6 Q. Well, I put to, Mr. Plahuta, that, as this document states,
7 Mr. Simatovic, Mr. Franko, and his specials were able to control and
8 prohibit people from entering into Serbia, and, in fact, Mr. Simatovic
9 was directly involved in the control of this bridge on both sides.
10 A. Well, that's what it says here, but I don't know anything about
11 that. Can I see that the date is the 20th of June. At the time, I
12 wasn't in the police force or in the military. That was in 1993. So
13 the -- there's nothing I could say about that. But I know that on the
14 Serbian side, well, every state controls enter into its territory. The
15 MUP controls such entry. And on the other side you have the army or the
16 police controlling entry. But I don't know what the situation is, or
17 was, so I can't comment on what it says here.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I didn't want to intervene until the
21 witness had answered the question. But could my colleague please tell me
22 where it says in the text that Frenki controlled crossings on both sides
23 of the bridge.
24 MS. HARBOUR: The text says:
25 "... on explicit orders from the boss (Mr. Franko), the political
1 and military leadership of Skelani municipality and the Skelani SB have
2 within prohibited from entering the FRY (across the bridge)."
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] So entering the SFRY over the
4 bridge. I don't know how can you interpret that to mean from both sides
5 of the bridge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, this is what apparently is prohibited, is
7 movement in one direction at a certain point in time.
8 Now, if you do not allow to cross a border, and this is, of
9 course, to some extent a semantic discussion, then, of course, you stop
10 at one side, you're not allowed to go to the other side, so
11 linguistically ... but the example is clear that leaving the one
12 territory in order to enter the other territory was prohibited in this
14 Mr. Bakrac, I think that whether that --
15 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have to ask the witness whether that changes
17 in any way his answer.
18 If Ms. Harbour would have just told you that Frenki controlled
19 crossings, would your answer be -- have been any different?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, the MUP of Serbia
21 controlled entrance into Serbia. Whether anyone personally controlled
22 things, I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, I think that if you want to further
24 explore the matter, then you can do so in re-examination.
25 Please proceed, Ms. Harbour.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 MS. HARBOUR: Could we now tender this document.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6497 will receive number P3120,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P3120 is admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. HARBOUR:
10 Q. Mr. Plahuta, you've given evidence of victims from the Serb
11 forces who died during various operations in 1993 -- in various
12 operations that we've been discussing, and I want to ask you about two of
13 these victims in particular.
14 MS. HARBOUR: Could I ask for 65 ter 6288.1 on the monitors.
15 And, please, could we have the last page in both the B/C/S and English.
16 Q. This is a statement from the personnel file of Ljubomir Obradovic
17 and it is on Serbian DB special-purpose unit letterhead. And in this
18 one, unlike in Exhibit P399, it is clearly the Serbian DB under the
19 Serbian MUP. And it's signed by unit commander Bozovic and
20 deputy commander Zvezdan Jovanovic.
21 Beginning at the top, this states:
22 "On 9 April 1993, I was out in the Osmace area with an
23 intervention group. At 1230 hours, I received information from
24 Major Ilic, the commander of the Skelani TO, who commanded this line of
25 defence, that the line had been broken through in the sector of Karacici
1 and that his defenders had abandoned their positions."
2 Osmace was one of the villages where the Uzice Corps was engaged
3 in operations in 1993 and which you identified on a map, which is in
4 evidence as Exhibit D862.
5 I'll continue reading.
6 "At 1245 hours, I set off with another ten men to mop up the
7 terrain. In a co-ordinated action with the group which Bozovic brought,
8 we managed to push the Muslims back from this sector. During the mop-up
9 operation, we came across a Pinzgauer and, a hundred metres from it, the
10 mutilated bodies of Zarko Teofanovic and Ljubomir Obradovic."
11 And then it goes on to describe the circumstances which led to
12 the death of these two individuals. And just to summarise: Teofanovic
13 and Obradovic had gone to get food for their sector, then Major Ilic's
14 men abandoned their front-line positions without telling anyone, and the
15 Muslim forces ambushed Teofanovic and Obradovic as they were returning
16 with food.
17 Did you ever hear of this incident while the Uzice Corps was
18 positioned in this area?
19 A. No, I never heard about this incident.
20 Q. Mr. Plahuta, in our submission, this document indicates, first of
21 all, that there was a Serbian DB unit in 1993; second, that Bozovic was
22 commander of this unit; and third, that this unit was engaged in
23 operations in eastern Bosnia in 1993.
24 Do you have any comments on these points?
25 A. As I have already said, I really am not aware of the fact that a
1 unit from the RDB participated in action. I had information according to
2 which the MUP didn't cross over and didn't take any action across the
3 border, so I can't comment on this. I really know nothing about it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, could I ask you one question.
5 You explained to the witness what the Prosecution thought the
6 document said. You said, "first ... there was a Serbian DB unit in 1993"
7 in that area.
8 Is that the unit described in the first sentences, "I was out in
9 the Osmace area with an intervention group"? Is that the unit you were
10 referring to?
11 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour. In our submission, this -- yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's the unit.
13 "Second, that Bozovic was commander of this unit," you said.
14 When I read the document - and, again, the witness has said that
15 he doesn't know anything about it - but in the fourth and fifth lines it
16 is reads:
17 "At 1245 hours I set off with another ten men to mop up the
18 terrain. In a co-ordinated action with the group which Bozovic
19 brought ..."
20 Could you explain to me where the person who gives this statement
21 says that he acted in co-ordination with a group Bozovic brought, whether
22 still Bozovic is, in your position, the one who commanded the group of
23 which the person who gave this statement was a member.
24 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution's interpretation
25 is that, as we can see from the letterhead, this pertains to a
1 special-purpose unit, one special-purpose unit, of the MUP of Serbia DB,
2 and this -- the commander of this special-purpose unit was Bozovic. The
3 deputy commander was Zvezdan Jovanovic. And Zvezdan Jovanovic is the
4 author of the report. He was out with a portion of the unit and met up
5 with another portion of the unit that Bozovic brought.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So when you answered my questions, you were not very
7 accurate, because I asked you whether the intervention group was the
8 unit. But what you actually say is that was a part of the unit.
9 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour. That it was all -- both groups
10 comprised one unit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I better understand your position.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have page 2 in the English version
14 of this document, and page 3 in the B/C/S.
15 Q. This is a brief biography from the personnel file of
16 Ljubomir Obradovic. It states in the second paragraph that on the
17 1st of December, 1991, he joined the TO of Slavonia, Baranja, and
18 Western Srem as a volunteer. And then on the 26th of December, 1991, he
19 joined the special-purpose unit of the MUP RS as a reservist. And then
20 it says that on the 9th of April, 1993, Ljubomir Obradovic and Zarko
21 Teofanovic were killed in the Karacici sector, Osmace.
22 And in the final paragraph, we see that: "His wife
23 Tina Obradovic has been receiving his reservist's salary and a full daily
24 allowance payment. The wife is the family contact person."
25 And then it gives her address.
1 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 6484, page 1. And once
2 we 've viewed that document, then I will ask a question that pertains to
3 both of these documents.
4 Q. This is an excerpt of the personnel file of Teofanovic, Zarko.
5 It states that:
6 "He was a member of the reserve team of MUP Serbia
7 special-purpose unit, that he was tortured and killed on 9 April 1993,"
8 again describing the same incident.
9 And then in the last paragraph, it says:
10 "Salary of the reserve team member, along with the full amount of
11 combined daily expenses, is paid out to the spouse Teofanovic, Stojanka."
12 Mr. Plahuta, did you ever hear of the Serbian DB paying the
13 families of deceased members of special units?
14 A. I heard and I know that the MUP did pay some salary to the family
15 members of the deceased, as is -- was the case with my brother. And it
16 concerned members of the Serbian MUP.
17 As for any members of the MUP in Bosnia, I really can't say
18 anything in that regard.
19 MS. HARBOUR: Could we now have -- turn back to 65 ter
20 number 6288.1. And, on the first page, I do want to warn everyone in the
21 courtroom that this is a photo of a dead body, and the reason I'm showing
22 it is to see if the witness recognises the uniform.
23 If we could just zoom in on the top photo in the page.
24 Q. Do you recognise this uniform, Mr. Plahuta?
25 A. It resembles a military jacket. It may well be the M93 or M91
1 model. I think this is a military jacket.
2 Q. Is this the same uniform that you wore as a member of the JATD?
3 A. As a member of the JATD, I never had such a military windbreaker.
4 Our pattern was different; more refined. I don't know what the exact
5 name of the pattern was.
6 In any case, it was a bit more elaborate and not as shiny as this
7 one. I didn't have a jacket like this, although it was similar, to some
8 degree, with a different pattern.
9 MS. HARBOUR: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I'd like not
10 to --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like now to tender this excerpt of the
13 personnel file of Ljubomir Obradovic which is uploaded as 65 ter 6288.1,
14 and I would note that an excerpt containing only the biography and the
15 Serbian DB report signed by Bozovic is already in evidence as P3040, and
16 the document uploaded as 65 ter 6288.1 adds this photo and also a
17 hospital record indicating that this person was taken to the Bajina Basta
19 MR. JORDASH: We object.
20 First of all, we submit that we ought to have had the disclosure
21 of these names at the beginning of the case. In that way, we have been
22 able to investigate who they were and what they are alleged to have done.
23 Secondly, we ought to have had those names so that we understood
24 what exactly is being said about the unit.
25 On the face of the document 6288.1, there's a reference to at
1 least two units. My learned friend has described the Prosecution case as
2 being that they're one and the same units. One couldn't have told that
3 from the document, but we now know that's the Prosecution case.
4 We've had three years of a trial where we could have asked
5 witnesses about these men and about this alleged unit.
6 Secondly, we had no notice that the Prosecution was going to rely
7 upon these documents today.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Especially the last point, Ms. Harbour.
9 MS. HARBOUR: These documents were in the list of documents that
10 I noticed for use with this witness.
11 MR. JORDASH: Apparently not.
12 MS. HARBOUR: That's ...
13 MR. JORDASH: No.
14 MS. HARBOUR: If that's the case, I will look into that. That
15 was an oversight, and I apologise.
16 Is -- is it perhaps noticed under P3040, which is already
17 admitted, the excerpts of Ljubomir Obradovic's file.
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, that is the case.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What does that mean? Of course, I do not know
20 exactly this was part of it or whether it was in addition to it.
21 MS. HARBOUR: The file that I'm seeking to tender includes two
22 additional pages that are not in the admitted file of P3040. Those two
23 pages are the photo and a hospital record showing that this victim was
24 taken to the Bajina Basta hospital.
25 [The Accused Stanisic withdrew]
1 MR. JORDASH: That's right.
2 The new documents have not been noticed to us, basically. The
3 hospital record, nor the photograph.
4 While I'm on my feet, may I also inquire from the Prosecution - I
5 think this is important for Your Honours' consideration - when these
6 documents were obtained by the Prosecution and in which circumstances?
7 When was the request made; and when were they received?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have an answer to that, Ms. Harbour?
9 MS. HARBOUR: One moment, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: While the Prosecution is conferring, Mr. Jordash,
11 your client left the courtroom. I take it that -- yes. May I take it
12 that he waived, perhaps for a very short period of time, his right to be
13 present? Otherwise we would have to stop at this very moment. Not
14 knowing why exactly he left the courtroom, but if it would be just for a
15 short sanitary stop.
16 Would you agree that we'll continue for a couple of minutes and
17 then see whether he returns?
18 MR. JORDASH: Yes, we can agree on that, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
20 Ms. Harbour, any answer to the last question?
21 MS. HARBOUR: No, Your Honour, that's something we'll have to
22 look into further.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that the two documents will be marked
24 for identification.
25 Madam Registrar, the numbers would be ...
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6288.1 will receive number P3121,
2 Your Honours.
3 And document 6484 will receive number P3122, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And are both marked for identification.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 6492 on the screen.
7 And I would note that this is a document from the military expert report
8 that the Simatovic against has withdrawn, and it's also from their list
9 of documents to tender from the bar table.
10 Q. During your direct examination, Mr. Plahuta, Mr. Bakrac showed
11 you a document that was from the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade,
12 which is now in evidence as D861. And at that time Mr. Bakrac informed
13 the Chamber that it wanted to tender that document to show that "there
14 were a number of Red Berets units, both in the Republika Srpska and
15 Croatia, which had nothing to do whatsoever with the JATD of the
16 Republic of Serbia."
17 And I would like to explore that, which is why I'm showing you
18 this order which is signed by Ratko Mladic as commander of the VRS on
19 13 May 1993, and it's sent to the Drina Corps Command and the
20 Bratunac 1st Light Infantry Brigade.
21 In the first paragraph, it reads:
22 "In order to calm down the conflicts and incidents that happened
23 between - illegible - unit of ... MUP of Serbia under the command of
24 Vasilije Mijovic and Bratunac public security station and in order to
25 stabilize the defence line and manning of 1st Bratunac Light Infantry
1 Brigade, I order.
2 "1, all military conscripts from Bratunac and Srebrenica area in
3 the special units of Serbian MUP under the command of Vasilije Mijovic
4 are to be put to the war-time assignment in the 1st Bratunac Light
5 Infantry Brigade."
6 My first question to you is --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue. Looking at the original and
8 being very alert on any reference to RS, I see what is here in English
9 "unit of the RS MUP." Looks as if in the original it refers to the
10 Republike Srbije, which I understand is the Republic of Serbia rather
11 than the Republika Srpska. And in order to avoid whatever confusion, I'm
12 wondering whether the parties would agree that RS MUP here must be
13 understood to be the Republic of Serbia MUP.
14 I saw Mr. Bakrac was already nodding "yes."
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.
16 I can confirm that in the original we can find the MUP of the Republic of
18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you do not oppose that
19 interpretation, then, Ms. Harbour. And Mr. Jordash, I think, would agree
20 it as well. Yes. Please proceed.
21 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, in fact, I have requested a correction
22 of this translation, and we will upload that as soon as possible.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think everyone would agree that that would
24 be the appropriate way of proceeding, but I wanted to clarify it already
1 Please proceed. Because you were about to ask a question to the
3 [The Accused Stanisic entered court]
4 MS. HARBOUR:
5 Q. Mr. Plahuta, did you know, as Mladic acknowledges here, that in
6 the first half of 1993 Mijovic commanded special units of the
7 Serbian MUP?
8 A. I wouldn't know. I don't know.
9 Q. If we go down to point 3, it states:
10 "The entire unit commanded by Mijovic in the previous combat
11 activities is to be subordinated to the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry
12 Brigade and form the Sabotage Detachment of the 1st Bratunac Light
13 Infantry Brigade from its members, that should be used for the sabotage
14 and intervention actions in the brigade AOR."
15 Did you know that, as Mladic has stated, even prior to this order
16 the Serbian MUP special units commanded by Mijovic had participated in
17 combat activities?
18 A. No, I was not aware of that.
19 Q. For your reference, and the reference of the Chamber and the
20 Defence, an order signed by the commander of the 1st Bratunac Light
21 Infantry Brigade, Colonel Vuksic, on the 15th of May, 1993, refers to and
22 implements this order from Mladic. And that is in evidence as P1081.
23 MS. HARBOUR: I would like to tender this document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6492 will receive number P3123 [Realtime
1 transcript read in error "P3213], Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P3213 [sic] is admitted into evidence.
3 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please now have 65 ter 6493.
4 And this is also from the Defence military expert report which
5 has been withdrawn, and it's also on the list of documents that the
6 Simatovic Defence seeks to tender from the bar table.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, with your leave, I would just like
8 to correct. I see on the record that you said that 6492 is P213 [sic].
9 Actually, the number received is P3123.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I -- in order to make no mistake, I read
11 from the transcript. But apparently there's a -- perhaps a joint error,
12 then. It's now corrected. And it is ...
13 Could you please repeat it, Madam Registrar, because again it
14 appears not fully on the transcript.
15 THE REGISTRAR: I repeat. So number 6492 receives number P3123,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P3123 is admitted into evidence.
18 The other number is, therefore, to the extent it was already
19 registered, is vacated. But this is the exhibit number for this
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. HARBOUR: Could I please have 65 ter 6493. And there it is.
23 Q. Mr. Plahuta, the Simatovic Defence has suggested that Mijovic's
24 unit in the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade has nothing to do with the
25 Serbian MUP.
1 This document from the Drina Corps Command is addressed
2 personally to the president of the Bratunac Military Assembly and is
3 dated on the 27th of November, 1993, which is six months after Mladic's
4 order resubordinating Mijovic's unit to the Bratunac Light Infantry
6 I will read from the bottom of the first passage in English,
7 which is towards the middle of the page in the B/C/S.
8 "The appearance, as you say, of Major Vasilije Mijovic in the
9 area of the Bratunac municipality, is not linked," and we move to the
10 next page in English, "to any document or an oral order of this command,
11 which automatically means that this command has never issued any order to
12 the mentioned.
13 "Vasilije Mijovic is not registered in the military records of
14 the Bratunac Brigade, nor of this command, on any basis, which makes him
15 a person who can either be a paramilitary or on the strength of the MUP
16 or on a work obligation."
17 And, finally, if we could look to the bottom of the page in
18 English and move to the second paragraph of page 2 in the B/C/S, it
20 "A clear conclusion can hereby be drawn: No Mijovic's unit can
21 be made out of the available manpower of the brigade because the
22 establishment of a light infantry brigade does not envisage any such
24 Now, in light of this document and the other documents I have
25 shown to you today, I put to you that Serbian MUP units under Mijovic
1 were involved in operations leading up to and following the attack in
2 January 1993 by the ABiH forces and that Mijovic's unit remained
3 ultimately under the command of the Serbian MUP, even while it was
4 operationally resubordinated to the Bratunac Lpbr.
5 Do you have anything to say about this?
6 A. Well, I don't have a comment about this because I never heard
7 about any of the things mentioned here, so I know nothing about it. I
8 have no comment. I really don't know.
9 MS. HARBOUR: Could I please tender this document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6493 will receive number P3124,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think you said P--
14 THE REGISTRAR. It's again --
15 JUDGE ORIE: --3124.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I did, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P3124 is admitted into evidence. Please
19 MS. HARBOUR: Could we now have 65 ter 6494 on the screen.
20 Q. During your direct examination, you commented on a
21 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade document from October 1994 which
22 referred to the commander of the Red Berets platoon, Bosko Neskovic.
23 Your conclusion was that Neskovic was never a member of the JATD unit of
24 the Serbian MUP. There's evidence in this case that Bosko Neskovic
25 actually commanded a Red Berets group that arrived in Bratunac in
1 July 1992.
2 MS. HARBOUR: And I'm referring to P2104, for the reference of
3 the Chamber and the parties.
4 Q. The document that you see on the screen before you is from
5 Bosko Neskovic's personnel file from the Serbian DB.
6 As we can see, the date on the top of the file is 2 June 1992.
7 And if we turn to the second page, you see that the file contains the
8 same form that was found in the file of Branko Pavlovic, which is now in
9 evidence as D864, which you said was not familiar to you.
10 Having viewed this file of Bosko Neskovic, do you agree that you
11 simply are not in a position to know whether Bosko Neskovic was in a
12 Serbian MUP special-purposes unit?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Before the witness answers, I would
16 kindly ask my learned friend to ask him -- or, rather, to tell us whether
17 she has in mind the entire period from 1991 to 1995, or does she have a
18 specific shorter period in mind, just so that the witness is clear.
19 MR. JORDASH: And could I add to that, just so that we're all
20 clear, because I've got no idea from the notice we've been given, what
21 the Prosecution's case is concerning when Neskovic was in a special DB
22 unit and where and what alleged -- is alleged to have done.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, the questions about this person were
24 put to the witness in a certain time-frame, context, which might not
25 necessarily be the same as the document we saw before, and I have not
1 been able to decipher this document yet.
2 Would you please, when you put further questions to the witness
3 in relation to these documents, keep that clearly in mind so that there's
4 no confusion whatsoever.
5 The previous document was, I think, about June 1992, if I
6 remember well.
7 MS. HARBOUR: Is Your Honour referring to the first page of this
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it's the -- the -- the page we saw on
10 our screen a minute ago with the very small table.
11 Again, but perhaps I give you two some time to think about it.
12 You're now aware of the problems the parties have expressed.
13 It's a quarter to 2.00, so we have to finish for the day.
14 Could you give us an indication on whether you're on track as far
15 as time is concerned?
16 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, I will check with the representative
17 of the Registry to see how much time I have used. I do think I will use
18 the full three hours originally anticipated.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which, I would say, opens the possibility to
20 perhaps even conclude the testimony of this witness in the next hearing
21 day, which is on Thursday and not tomorrow.
22 Let's try to see whether that can be achieved.
23 And I'm of course also addressing the parties who will re-examine
24 and perhaps further cross-examine the witness.
25 Then, to the extent the transcript is not clear or to the extent
1 I have not been very clear, P3124 was admitted into evidence. We said
2 something about the number.
3 Then, Mr. Plahuta, we'll not hear this case tomorrow. We will
4 continue on Thursday, the 17th of May, at a quarter past 2.00 in the
5 afternoon in this same courtroom, II. We'd like to see you back then.
6 We'll see whether it's possible to conclude your examination on that day.
7 And I really urged the parties, because if, just for 20 minutes, if the
8 witness would have to wait for another couple of days, that's something
9 we should try to do our utmost best to avoid.
10 Mr. Plahuta, I give you the same instructions as I did the
11 previous days, that is, that you should not speak or communicate in any
12 way with anyone about your testimony.
13 Then we adjourn, and resume on Thursday.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just have two
17 questions I would like to put to you.
18 I have been given a personnel file to read. Can I take it away
19 with me, or should I leave it here? And if the Prosecution or Defence
20 have any questions about the personnel file, since it might be necessary
21 to explain certain things, and given that there are places and
22 individuals who have to be mentioned in relation to the personnel file, I
23 believe that this should be done in private session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It depends on what it exactly is. We have
25 certain -- certain rules for that.
1 Would you like to receive the personnel file back until Thursday?
2 MS. HARBOUR: I think that that would be best.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 The appropriate way to -- the personnel file to be returned to
5 Ms. Harbour at this moment. But then, well, you've read it.
6 And I take it that the witness may consult it on Thursday, if any
7 further questions are put to him.
8 MS. HARBOUR: Of course, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Then if you leave it on that desk, then it will be returned to
11 Ms. Harbour.
12 We stand adjourned. And we resume on the 17th of May, at 2.15 in
13 the afternoon.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day
17 of May, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.