1 Wednesday, 30 May 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic
10 and Franko Simatovic.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 I first have to apologise for the late start. It's exclusively
13 due to me misjudging the time this morning. When working, I thought it
14 was 8.00, and then it turned out to be 9.00 already. Apologies for that,
15 especially because I'm the one who is now and then criticising the
16 parties for not being precise. I have to improve my own performance in
17 that respect as well.
18 Apart from that, Mr. Farr, are you ready?
19 By the way, there is one matter, and I think the attention has
20 already been drawn to it by Chambers staff and it has been communicated
21 with Mr. Jordash, that there is D293 MFI'd, which might, in terms of
22 authenticity, might be resolved with this witness.
23 Mr. Farr, if you're ready, please proceed.
24 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 WITNESS: RADIVOJE MICIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Farr: [Continued]
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Micic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps I should first do my daily routine.
5 Mr. Micic, you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given
6 at the beginning of your testimony.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. FARR:
9 Q. Mr. Micic, you told us yesterday that Radenko Novakovic was one
10 of the employees of the State Security Service who was in Bosnia in late
11 1995, and that's at transcript page 49 from yesterday. Can you tell us
12 why Radenko Novakovic was in Bosnia in 1995?
13 A. The main reason for his stay there was the establishment of a
14 stationary intelligence post in the territory of Bijeljina.
15 Q. And can you tell us approximately what month he was there, to
16 your knowledge?
17 A. I cannot say exactly how long he was there. I can just say that
18 I probably saw him at the very beginning of the year. I mean the very
19 beginning of 1995, or the end of 1994, because it was cold. I remember
20 what the weather was like.
21 Q. You saw him in Bosnia at that time, or you saw him in Belgrade at
22 that time?
23 A. Bosnia. Bosnia, yes. Bijeljina.
24 MR. FARR: Could we please have Exhibit P2543 on the screen.
25 Q. And, sir, while this is coming up, I'll just tell you that this
1 is an excerpt from a notebook kept by Ratko Mladic, and this particular
2 entry is dated 22 September 1995. Now, if we take a look at this first
3 page, we can see that this entry records a meeting with the organs of the
4 Main Staff of the VRS and the commanders of various units. The meeting
5 occurred in Banja Luka.
6 MR. FARR: And if we could please have page 4 in both languages,
7 in the middle of the page.
8 Here on page 4 we can see that General Milovanovic is beginning
9 his briefing. And if we can turn to page 5. If we can turn to the next
10 page of the document in both languages, we'll see that
11 General Milovanovic's briefing continues.
12 Q. And I'll read now a portion beginning with the words "A team from
13 the Serbian DB."
14 "A team from the Serbian DB appeared here. Filipovic, Bozovic,
15 as well as Kijac and Kovac, and Krajisnik told us that 3 brigades would
16 come. Bozovic said that the VJ would not and that the RS MUP decided
17 that 1.200 fighters would come, be incorporated into the
18 1st Krajina Corps, and used like all other units."
19 The fact that Filipovic and Bozovic came to Bosnia was
20 corroborated by General Milovanovic himself during his testimony in this
22 MR. FARR: And, Your Honours, that's transcript page 15522 to
24 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that you were not aware of members of
25 the DB of Serbia meeting with senior officers of the VRS in the second
1 half of 1995. Are you able to say why you are not aware of this?
2 A. I personally was not aware of that because I hadn't been informed
3 about it. I mean, I personally did not have any information available
4 with regard to those matters. Now, what the real reason was for this
5 information not being accessible to me is something I cannot assess
7 Q. Is it fair to say that meeting with General Milovanovic was
8 outside of Mr. Filipovic's regular duties as the deputy head of the
9 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB?
10 A. I wouldn't dare claim something like that unequivocally. I
11 really do not know in which capacity Dragan Filipovic as deputy head of
12 the 2nd Administration took part in any kind of discussions of this kind.
13 MR. FARR: Can we now please have Exhibit P2546 on the screen.
14 Q. And, sir, this is another entry from one of Ratko Mladic's
15 notebooks. This entry is dated 3 October 1995, and it's entitled
16 "Meeting with Dragan Filipovic aka Fica, Radojica Bozovic."
17 The entry indicates that Filipovic spoke first, and it records
18 him as saying:
19 "Arkan's men are operating under the control of Pecanac, and in
20 my opinion they're doing a good job."
21 Now, you told us yesterday that Dragan Filipovic was your
22 immediate superior at this time. Do you know why it would be your
23 immediate superior, the deputy chief of the 2nd Administration of the DB
24 of Serbia, who would be informing Ratko Mladic about the deployment of
25 Arkan's men?
1 A. Believe me, I cannot even intimate what the reasons were for this
2 kind of activity, and in particular, I do not know who it was that he
3 submitted reports to in that respect, namely that Arkan's men were
4 operating properly. And I don't know what this means, operating
5 properly. I mean, in what sense? Also, the name Pecanac doesn't tell me
6 a thing, absolutely not.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, I heard in translation the word "properly"
8 used various times. I do not find that in the text. Could you please
9 seek to verify what exactly the witness is referring to, because it seems
10 that the written translation is either different or ...
11 MR. FARR:
12 Q. Sir, as His Honour Judge Orie just indicated, you used the
13 word -- well, what you said, that Arkan's men were operating properly.
14 Can you tell us which portion of the text you were referring to when you
15 referred to Arkan's men operating properly?
16 A. It's practically the first sentence after the first bullet point.
17 It says "Arkan's men," and there's a reference to Pecanac, and then it is
18 stated that he thinks that they are operating properly. Now, I don't
19 know what sense that he meant that, that they were operating properly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The word "properly" is, of course, not exactly
21 the same as it is translated in writing, doing a good job, and behaving
22 properly is, I would say, not identical, and I suggest to the parties
23 that we have this translation verified.
24 MR. FARR: We'll do that, Your Honour.
25 Could we now please have 65 ter 6175 on the screen.
1 Q. Sir, this is a document on the heading of the security department
2 of the Eastern Bosnia Corps Command, and it's dated the
3 20th of September, 1995. Are you able to recognise the format of this
5 A. I'm not. The format is dispatch format, that's for sure. The
6 State Security Department used a slightly different format at that time,
7 but I assume it is a dispatch. The State Security Department had a
8 marking, DX. That meant that it was extremely urgent, and that seems to
9 be missing here.
10 Q. During your time in the DB did you have a chance to see military
11 intelligence reports?
12 A. Military intelligence?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. No. Closer co-operation happened only later, towards the end of
15 1998 and up until mid-1999. Before that, I did not have an opportunity.
16 Q. I'd like to read the first few lines of this report starting at
17 the beginning of the first paragraph. It says:
18 "In the evening hours of 19 September 1995, at a working meeting
19 of the Bijeljina SO, or Municipal Assembly, which was attended among
20 others by Mr. Frenki and Bozovic from the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
21 and Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, on one side and Mr. Kozic, the prime
22 minister of RS, Minister Boro Bosic, and organs of the authorities of the
23 Bijeljina region on the other, it was allegedly agreed that Arkan and his
24 unit should take and liberate Teocak."
25 Sir, are you able to tell us anything about the presence of
1 Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Bozovic at this meeting on 19 September 1995?
2 A. I have no knowledge whatsoever about the information presented
3 except for the following: As far as I know, Bozovic was never an
4 employee of the Ministry of the Interior, if we mean the same Bozovic, if
5 we have the same Bozovic in mind.
6 MR. FARR: Your Honours, could we please move into private
8 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
9 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
15 Q. Okay. I'm going to stop you there. I apologise for
16 interrupting, but I think that you've already answered the substance of
17 my question which is that you received the award for --
18 A. [In English] Sorry.
20 whether you'd received an award from the JSO, and my question was from
21 the JSO, you said no, and then -- at transcript page 47. And then
22 slightly later, at page 62, you indicated that you may have received a
23 lighter at some point from the service. Is there a reason you didn't
24 mention the award of this pistol at that time?
25 A. [Interpretation] The pistol was presented to me, and to this day
1 this is my belief, and I have a decision on this award, that it was given
2 to me by the chief of the State Security Department. That is why I don't
3 even have to pay taxes for that pistol. So it's not the JSO. It's the
4 chief of the State Security Department at the proposal made by my
6 Q. Do you know why Franko Simatovic and Dragan Filipovic were
7 receiving awards on this day?
8 A. No, really I cannot say. I mean, I don't know anything specific.
9 I can talk about the persons who were mentioned.
10 Q. Were you aware that they had received these awards on this day?
11 A. No. Believe me, no. Because these are completely different
12 places. I mean where awards are handed out. I know about these young
13 men and these young women who are mentioned here underneath this list. I
14 mean, I know the reasons why the awards were given for that part.
15 Q. Which -- which people are you referring to there? Who were you
16 referring -- for which people? Do you know the reason why they received
17 the awards?
18 A. One, two, and three, of course.
19 Q. Of which -- of which list? Of the third list, the monetary
20 reward list?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter did not hear the witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the awards handed out in the
24 centre of the security -- State Security Department of Belgrade, I know
25 of the monetary award given to the first person, then the person
1 mentioned under number 5, and that's it.
2 Q. And why did they receive awards?
3 A. The basis was the same: for special efforts made in breaking the
4 network of agents of Croatia and the Republic of Serbia.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, could I ask one question.
6 Why didn't you mention the pistol you received, yesterday?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was whether I received
8 a pistol from the JSO, or at least I wasn't aware of that, because the
9 decision that was issued in my name specified that it would be -- that it
10 was being presented by the head of the State Security Department.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I do agree with you that the first question was
12 about receiving an award from the JSO. However, in your answers and in
13 the follow-up questions, the question was not limited in any way to the
14 JSO any more, because when you told us that you had received a lighter, a
15 lighter of bad quality, you did not tell us that you received it from the
16 JSO. You told us that it was a lighter with the -- I think the emblem of
17 the service, and you told us that others got similar lighters not from
18 the JSO but from the service itself, but by far more -- it seems to me
19 that it's far more important when you officially get a pistol. Why
20 didn't you tell us, and why were you emphasising so much that the
21 lighters were of bad quality and it was totally unsignificant when you
22 are not talking about the JSO? You are talking about an award or at
23 least something you received from the service as a sign of appreciation
24 of your work, and you were silent on the pistol. Do you have an
25 explanation for that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question to which I gave the
2 answer you just quoted was whether I was aware the kinds of awards
3 conferred by the JSO, and in response to that question I mentioned that I
4 knew of awards such as knives and daggers, symbolic daggers, of course,
5 not real ones, that I never received myself. And a pistol, I still
6 assert, is an award received from the State Security Department
7 independently of the JSO. And I stated --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We have the record, and we can read exactly what you
9 said about -- in answer to questions specifically on receiving anything
10 from the JSO and how you elaborated on matters, objects, you did not
11 receive from the JSO, explaining very much how insignificant it was what
12 you received from the service, from the RDB, and then I said:
13 "Let's be practical. The lighters, the lighters with the emblem
14 of the department, would you buy them at the department shop, or were
15 they given as a kind of an appreciation of work done?"
16 That has got nothing to do with the JSO anymore, and at least
17 your answer was:
18 "I had a lighter like that. Quite simply, they were received."
19 We were not talking about the JSO any more. We were talking
20 about the service.
21 "I had a lighter like that, too, but it didn't work for very
23 You were emphasising the insignificance, and your answer was not
24 the whole truth to the extent that you had not told us that apart from a
25 bad functioning lighter you received officially a pistol. Any comment on
1 what I just said?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose it must be my bad
3 interpretation. Yes, I received all the awards from the department. I
4 can enumerate them all now regardless of the lighter and the rest. Quite
5 simply, I stated that because I wasn't clear about the origin of those
6 lighters, whether they belonged to the JSO or the department. At one
7 point even the emblems were quite the same. That's the main reason. But
8 I did receive other awards for my work.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You now even tell us that you may have received the
10 lighter from the JSO, which you didn't tell us yesterday.
11 But, Mr. Farr, you may proceed. Please put your next question to
12 the witness.
13 MR. FARR:
14 Q. Sir, looking at the bottom of the page, we see three individuals
15 were being given an award posthumously, Radoslav Kostic, Milan Dimic, and
16 Zeljko Torbica. And I would now like to take a quick look at some
17 information relating to one of those individuals.
18 MR. FARR: And for that can we please have 65 ter 6289 on the
20 Q. Sir, this is a personnel file of Zeljko Torbica, one of the
21 individuals we just saw receiving a posthumous award on the security day
22 in 1996, and I'd just like to read a brief portion of the information we
23 see here on the first page. It says:
24 "Zeljko Torbica, son of Radomir and Kadivka, nee Milivojevic, a
25 Serb, single, a photographic technician. He joined the police in Knin as
1 a volunteer on 27 July 1991. On 1 August 1991, he began his training in
2 a special unit of the Krajina MUP and took part in several battles with
3 this unit. On 24 September 1991, he was admitted into the
4 Special-Purpose Unit of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia, where he
5 carried out the duties of an instructor and squad commander. He was
6 killed on 22nd June, 1992, during fighting near Brcko and was buried on
7 24 June 1992 at the cemetery in Smederevska Palanka."
8 Now, my question is: Do you know why a person with this
9 particular history would be receiving an award from the Serbian DB on the
10 same day as you in 1996?
11 A. I really couldn't because I don't know this person or the reasons
12 why he was given an award.
13 MR. FARR: Your Honour, it's likely that the Prosecution will be
14 tendering this personnel file from the bar table in rebuttal, so we would
15 ask for it to be marked for identification under seal at this point.
16 MR. JORDASH: Objection to the Prosecution's application. The
17 fact that the Prosecution intend to apply to tender it pursuant to
18 rebuttal evidence isn't basis for MFI'ing a document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What's the need to -- I mean, you've read part of
20 the document. Is there any dispute as to whether Mr. Farr read from the
21 personnel file of this person? Apart from -- there's no dispute about
23 MR. JORDASH: No.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Farr read out everything
1 MR. FARR: In that case, Your Honour, it's not necessary. We'll
2 just bring our bar table motion.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The evidence we received apart from that is that the
4 witness doesn't know this person, but there's no dispute as apparently
5 this being the content of that document read out by Mr. Farr. Please
7 MR. FARR: Could we please move back to open session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MR. FARR: And can we now please have Exhibit P352 on the screen.
13 Q. Sir, this is a certificate dated the 4th of January, 1994, and if
14 we can start by zooming in on the initials in the top right corner on the
15 B/C/S version. Sir, here once again we see the initials of
16 Franko Simatovic that you identified for us yesterday; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. FARR: Okay. If we could zoom back out, please.
19 Q. Now, this document is signed by Milan Radonjic as the deputy
20 commander of the JATD, and I'll just read the beginning of the document.
21 It says:
22 "Subject: Certificate confirming that Vasilije Mijovic is a
23 member of the ATD unit of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of
25 And now, sir, I want to read something from your testimony
1 yesterday, and this comes from pages 50 to 51. It starts with my
3 "Q. Did you ever learn anything about a possible professional
4 relationship between a person named Mijovic and Mr. Simatovic?
5 "A. As for the direct relations, whatever we call them, I really
6 cannot qualify them in any way because I didn't have any information as
7 to whether they were professional or something else, especially because I
8 first heard of Mr. Mijovic in the context of that well-known, I know it
9 is well-known here, celebration in Kula in 1997.
10 "Q. So you had never heard of Mijovic any time before the
11 celebration in Kula in 1997; is that your evidence?
12 "A. Yes, precisely."
13 Sir, do you maintain that you never heard of Vaso Mijovic until
14 1997 in light of this document confirming his membership in the JATD?
15 A. I still maintain that I had no information whatsoever about that
16 person, and the first I learned anything about Mr. Mijovic was at the
17 celebration in 1997.
18 MR. FARR: Your Honour, could we please move into private
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 19906-19916 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
20 Before we continue, I just received one of -- the result of the
21 verification of one of the lines I asked for, and I only read the line
22 which now gives the translation without errors, and I read it to you.
23 The answer to a question yesterday in the accurate translation
25 "I can only repeat what I stated earlier. I would need a lot of
1 time and material to even recall who Tomislav Kovac was. I have no
2 closer or better knowledge. At the time when we first mentioned him, I
3 didn't even know who he was."
4 Whereas earlier the translation was "when I first met him," but
5 apparently it's a reference to when Mr. Kovac was first mentioned.
6 I thought it good to already inform you about the outcome of the
7 verification. And also I would like to stress how important it sometimes
8 is to seek verification if there is any disputes about what was said or
9 how it was translated.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
11 And, Mr. Micic, you've heard that we verified part of an answer
12 you gave yesterday which caused some question marks, but there was a
13 mistake, and we always do that if there's a real problem in translations
14 or what someone has said. Then listening to audio and verifying the
15 accuracy of translation and transcription finally will give us the
16 answer, and in this case a mistake was made and it has now been
18 Mr. Farr, please proceed.
19 MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 I would now like to turn back briefly to Mr. Simatovic's mission
21 to the Krajina in 1991, and if we could please have P2615 on the screen.
22 And if we can have the second page in English and zoom in on the bottom
23 of the first page in B/C/S.
24 Q. And, sir, just to orient you, this is a statement dated the
25 7th of May, 1992, by a man named Milenko Sucevic, who at that time was
1 the commander of the communications company of the Main Staff of the
2 Territorial Defence of the RSK.
3 MR. FARR: And if we could now return to the top of the document
4 in both languages.
5 Q. I'll start reading at the beginning of this document and we'll
6 see that this statement actually relates to events in 1991. So starting
7 at the beginning, the statement says:
8 "In April last year, I was holding the post of Chief of
9 Communications in the special units of the Krajina SUP stationed in the
10 Golubic Youth Colony. Late in April, we received four Land Rover
11 vehicles for communication purposes equipped with the Racal radio devices
12 from the Serbian MUP in Belgrade. The equipment of each vehicle also
13 included a trailer with a generator. There were no teletype machines in
14 the vehicles. I took over the vehicles from Dragan Jerenic who was in
15 charge of communications in the Serbian MUP."
16 Sir, there's been other evidence in this case that at least as of
17 February 1992 Dragan Jerenic was, in fact, a member of the Serbian DB,
18 specifically the 4th Administration.
19 MR. FARR: And, Your Honours, that's P2626.
20 Q. Sir, are you familiar with this person Dragan Jerenic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The first two sentences of what I just read indicate that in
23 April of 1991, the special units of the Krajina SUP at Golubic received
24 communications equipment from the Serbian MUP. Were you aware of that?
25 A. No, although I'm familiar with the Racal radio device, although I
1 don't know how to use it, but I know it existed.
2 Q. Can you confirm that the Racal radio device is a device for
3 two-way communication rather than surveillance?
4 A. From what I know, it was used solely to maintain communication
5 between two points, but I repeat again, I never used it personally.
6 Q. Skipping down a couple of lines, I'll --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just ask you and the other parties whether this
8 last answer can be understood as affirmative. Surveillance is catching
9 something from the air or receiving it, whereas two-way communication is
10 sending, receiving, and then sending back. That's how I understand it.
11 And what the witness says is a -- the way in which it was used, which I
12 understand is affirmative of what Mr. Farr has asked the witness. If the
13 parties agree, then --
14 MR. JORDASH: I can see no reason to disagree with that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 And I see Mr. Bakrac also nod.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
18 MR. FARR:
19 Q. Skipping down a couple of lines, I'll start reading with the
20 words "After approximately two months."
21 "After approximately two months, there was a need for Land Rover
22 vehicles, and pursuant to an order by Frenk (the chief representative of
23 the Serbian MUP), I dismantled the entire equipment from two of the
24 vehicles and moved them to two Lada Niva vehicles which we had taken over
25 from the Elektrodistribucija Knin and ZTP Knin companies pursuant to an
1 order signed by Milan Martic. The emptied Land Rovers were used to tow
2 mortars and transport the crews in the area of Velika Glava."
3 Sir, our position is that this document shows that
4 Franko Simatovic was doing more in the Krajina than just conducting
5 surveillance against Captain Dragan. In fact, he was co-operating with
6 the special units of the SAO Krajina Police and was co-operating with
7 them closely enough that the chief of communications of the special units
8 of the Krajina SUP was willing to follow Mr. Simatovic's instructions
9 regarding equipment provided by the Serbian MUP. Are you able to comment
10 on that?
11 A. Concerning your position as stated, I could really say nothing.
12 I couldn't put forward any information or facts. But as far as this
13 document is concerned, it just says that this gentleman, what's his name,
14 acted on the instructions of Frenk --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Do you know anything about
16 it? Then please tell us. If you do not know about it, then leave it to
17 us to interpret the document unless you have any specific information
18 which would assist us, not start interpreting the document yourself
19 without such additional information.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
21 May I then take it that you do not have any -- Witness, you do
22 not have any additional information which would assist us in better
23 understanding the document? It's just that you started interpret it on
24 its face value. Is that --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are quite right, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
2 MR. FARR: Your Honour, could we please move into private
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. FARR: Your Honour, before I move on to my next document,
9 just to avoid confusion, I'd like to clarify something I just said. I
10 said our position is that the document shows that Frenki Simatovic was
11 doing more in the Krajina than just conducting surveillance against
12 Captain Dragan. It's our position that he was not in fact conducting
13 surveillance against Captain Dragan in the Krajina.
14 Q. So, sir, perhaps if you'd care to respond to that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You understand what the question is, Mr. Micic?
16 That is, that not only that he did more, but he only did things other
17 than surveilling Captain Dragan.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really could not confirm that on
19 the basis of anything I know. And I read this document a bit
20 differently, but that doesn't matter.
21 MR. FARR:
22 Q. Now --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Again there seems to be some misunderstanding. If
24 my recollection serves me well, you said yesterday that Mr. Simatovic was
25 there because there was an important matter of the surveillance of Mr. --
1 of Captain Dragan, if I understood your testimony well. So apparently
2 you must have factual information which contradicts what Mr. Farr says,
3 because Mr. Farr says nothing about Captain Dragan. It was other
4 business that made him go to the Krajina.
5 If you say, well -- don't just look at this document but also
6 consider on what basis you testified earlier that it was for the
7 surveillance of Captain Dragan that Mr. Simatovic left for the Krajina.
8 Because you were positive about that, and Mr. Farr now tells you that
9 it's his position that none of that was the reason why he went there.
10 Any comment on the basis of your personal knowledge which led you
11 to give the answers as you gave them earlier?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because, in fact,
13 Captain Dragan, and I repeat this again, was a serious threat to security
14 in the whole region, specially in the area of Knin, and those were the
15 reasons that I knew from my work in the Belgrade centre, that is to say
16 continued involvement in the field was necessary. As for any other
17 reasons, I am not aware of them. I'm talking about that time.
18 Later, of course, after a number of years, the well-known
19 Frenki's men were everywhere. I don't believe they reached America, but
20 there were all sorts of rumours, but my specific knowledge is within the
21 limits of what I stated.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's not very precise, because you do not
23 tell us whether it was Mr. Simatovic himself who told you, "I go there
24 because I have to be involved in the surveillance of Captain Dragan," or
25 whether you received any reports directly linking the presence of
1 Mr. Simatovic to the surveillance of Captain Dragan. You have not given
2 us any details, which I'd like to hear if you have them available. If
3 you don't have those, then of course your source of knowledge seems to be
4 at least a bit vague.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have any opportunity to
6 get direct insight into reports, if there were any, but considering that
7 Mr. Dragan Filipovic had also travelled to Knin for the same reasons as I
8 was told, it's only on the basis of immediate exchange of information and
9 experience gained in Knin did I gain the impression that Daniel Snedden
10 was the main target of their work, the main reason for their going to
11 Knin. I'm not saying there were no other reasons. I'm just saying what
12 I know.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you say, "I gained the impression,"
14 that's still, if I could say, soft language. It's a kind of a conclusion
15 you drew your self on the basis of the -- of the risk Mr. Snedden may
16 have caused that you concluded that this must have been the reason for
17 Mr. Simatovic to go there, or did you have any more concrete information
18 that that was the reason why he went there?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying this once again. Apart
20 from statements or interpretations, if you wish, by Dragan Filipovic, at
21 that time I did not have any more precise or more specific knowledge.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Farr.
23 MR. FARR:
24 Q. Sir, a moment ago you said:
25 "Later on [sic], of course, after a number of years the
1 well-known Frenki's men were everywhere."
2 What did you mean by that?
3 A. There were many news reports and media reports that published
4 even notorious untruths and facts that do not stand up to scrutiny. I
5 cannot recall specific articles, but it was more of a -- of an
6 exaggeration, a blown-up image of these Frenki's men.
7 MR. FARR: Can we please have P1062 on the screen.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I meanwhile, Mr. Farr, I -- even if I already
9 calculate the time I took for questions, that we are close to the
10 15 minutes you said you would need.
11 MR. FARR: This is my last document, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. FARR:
14 Q. Sir, the title of this document is "Some Information on
15 Daniel Snedden, Australian Citizen, Alias Kapetan Dragan." It's dated
16 28 August, 1991. And if we go to the bottom of page 3 in both languages,
17 we can see that it was authored -- we can see that it was authored by
18 Colonel Milorad Boskovic, the chief of the 3rd Department of the Security
19 Administration of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, and it
20 was delivered to general Kadijevic, among others.
21 MR. FARR: If we could go back to the top of the first page in
22 both languages, please, I'll beginning reading at the beginning of the
24 Q. "By the mid-June of the current year, security organs gathered
25 the initial information on Kapetan Dragan engaged in the training of the
1 special unit of the SAO Krajina MUP in the village of Golubic near Knin.
2 In spite of the fact that a lot of misinformation were passed regarding
3 his identity, the fact that he was always around and closely connected
4 with several organs of the MUP of Serbia who were engaged on the same
5 mission," and then there's a footnote, "indicated that we are talking
6 about an organ or person engaged on behalf of the MUP of Serbia."
7 If we scroll to the bottom of the page, we will see that the
8 footnote from the previous sentence specifically identifies the "several
9 organs of the MUP of Serbia who were engaged on the same mission as
10 "Franko Stamatovic aka Frenki, Dragoljub Filipovic aka Fico, inspectors
11 of the public security station of the MUP of Serbia, et cetera. Legends
12 were created around the identity of this group as well as the identity of
13 Kapetan Dragan."
14 Sir, there are some mistakes with names here, and
15 Colonel Boskovic incorrectly identified Filipovic and Simatovic with
16 public security rather than state security --
17 MR. JORDASH: Sorry to object. That's a comment. I mean, we
18 don't know that. We don't know whether they've been misidentified as
19 playing that role in addition to other roles.
20 MR. FARR: Mr. Jordash is correct. I'm putting my position, but
21 I should have made that clear.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. FARR:
24 Q. Sir, our position is that Colonel Boskovic made mistakes with the
25 names and that he mistakenly identified Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Filipovic
1 with public security than state security. Other than that, though, it is
2 our position that his report is an approximate reflection of reality.
3 Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Filipovic really were engaged in the same mission
4 as Captain Dragan, that is, training the special unit of the SAO Krajina
5 MUP, and Captain Dragan really was engaged on behalf of the MUP of
6 Serbia. Do you have any comment on that?
7 A. I don't have any closer knowledge, but what caught my eye is the
8 terminology used by Mr. Boskovic. He said it's about an organ or person,
9 which means that he hasn't really identified him. He is just assuming on
10 the basis of what he knows. It's not precise. I'm becoming aware of the
11 rules that apply in this court concerning interpretations, but that is
12 what I notice about this text.
13 MR. FARR: And could we now please have the top of the next page
14 in both languages.
15 Q. And I'll read the first full paragraph:
16 "SDB of the MUP of Serbia applied measures in the case of Snedden
17 from his arrival to the country. By monitoring his behaviour and
18 assessing that he altered his previous orientation, they established
19 operative contact with Snedden and sent him through the Association of
20 Serbs from Croatia to SAO Krajina in the capacity of an instructor or as
21 a person with no party orientation."
22 Sir, our position is that even if the DB did monitor
23 Captain Dragan, they also co-operated with him, and that their monitoring
24 activities were no bar to their co-operation with Captain Dragan.
25 Do you have any comment on that?
1 A. If I may ask you to repeat the last sentence. I didn't quite
2 understand it. What was no bar to what?
3 Q. The fact that the DB may have monitored Captain Dragan did not
4 prevent the DB from also co-operating with Captain Dragan.
5 A. What I can say, unlike you put it, is that the DB certainly
6 monitored Captain Dragan. Now, whether co-operation was established or
7 was it just an operative combination allowing them to approach the target
8 as much as possible is a matter up for debate. Professionally speaking,
9 you have to assess it and make a decision. It is sometimes advisable to
10 approach even your enemy to be able to evaluate his activities.
11 Especially since I don't understand these connotations, a person with no
12 party affiliation, what does it mean? I mean, I know what it means, but
13 what did the author mean to say with this? And in any case, as an
14 instructor of whatever technique related to security, he would be
15 interesting. It's -- it's a piece of information that is interesting
16 from the security point of view.
17 Q. Sir, before I conclude my examination, I'd just like to tell you
18 the Prosecution's position regarding your evidence so you can comment on
19 it if you wish to. Our position is that you've been less than completely
20 honest with the Chamber and that you have withheld information in your
21 knowledge that you believe might be harmful to the accused.
22 Do you wish to respond to that?
23 A. I am sincerely sorry if that is the impression or the position of
24 anyone in this courtroom. I have mentioned several times that the
25 information and some of my documents presented here were gathered more or
1 less in passing fashion through my operative work. So my knowledge is
2 extremely peripheral to the issues treated by this court. I don't know
3 what more I could say at this point, but I would like to see you refute
4 it. Not that I would like my testimony to be refuted, but I would like
5 you to put forward some arguments to support this position.
6 Q. Mr. Micic, thank you for answering my questions today.
7 MR. FARR: Your Honours --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr.
1 MR. JORDASH: Yes, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So for you it would be further cross without having
3 put questions to the witness. That's questions triggered by the
5 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us an indication as how much
7 time you would need?
8 MR. JORDASH: Twenty minutes, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Twenty minutes. Yes.
10 And, Mr. Bakrac, could you give us an indication already on how
11 much time you would need?
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think I will
13 need more than 20 minutes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could we try to -- to conclude in this
15 section, in this -- in this session so that we could start with the next
16 witness. I don't know whether it will be possible or not in view of the
17 time, but let's -- let's give it a try, to see whether we can conclude
18 the testimony of this witness.
19 MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
21 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
22 Q. Just returning to the subject of what Simatovic was doing in Knin
23 and what you were told he was doing. Effectively you're saying you have
24 to look at the situation to be able to see whether he was there as an
25 operative connection or whether he was there having established
1 co-operation; correct? You have to look at the situation.
2 A. Could you put the question a bit more precisely. I didn't catch
3 your drift.
4 Q. Let me try it a different way. You gave evidence that you'd
5 spoken to Filipovic, and it was Filipovic who had led you to believe that
6 Simatovic had been sent to Knin to observe Dragan; correct?
7 A. [In English] Yes. [Interpretation] Correct.
8 Q. What did Filipovic say?
9 A. I'll try to be brief. It was about the fact that he was telling
10 us or retelling us something about his immediate operative engagement
11 with Daniel. As far as I can remember, it was related to classic
12 measures and activities such as surveillance, documenting, and similar
13 things, more or less.
14 Q. Thank you. And your position is that whether Simatovic went
15 further than that you can't say one way or another?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to my
18 colleague Jordash. Page 40, line 1. The witness was more precise about
19 the specific kind of documenting. Maybe he could be asked to repeat
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you elicit? There -- apparently there may be
22 a part missing of the answer. Perhaps you read the last line of the
23 answer and ask what he said in addition to what you read.
24 MR. JORDASH:
25 Q. You just testified as follows according to the transcript.
1 Please let us know if that's what you said.
2 "As far as I can remember, it was related to classic measures
3 and activities such as surveillance, documenting, and similar things,
4 more or less."
5 Did you say that?
6 A. Something similar. However, I used different terminology.
7 Surveillance as a measure undertaken by the State Security Department
8 means that somebody's physically being followed, and then there is audio
9 and photo documentation. That is another measure by the State Security
10 Department applied within the operative engagement. There may have been
11 something else, but I think that that's it.
12 And as far as I know, those measures were applied to
13 Daniel Snedden.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It looks, Mr. Bakrac, the answer is now
15 accurately on the record.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
18 Q. And just so you're clear, Mr. Witness, it's Mr. Stanisic's case
19 that that is exactly why Mr. Simatovic was sent to Knin.
20 Now, just to be clear, your evidence is that you can provide
21 evidence as to why he was sent, but you don't know what he eventually did
22 when in Knin; is that right?
23 A. To put it simply, I have no direct knowledge, because I was not
24 in Knin, and I already stated what I know.
25 Q. Did Filipovic speak to you about what he did, having been sent to
1 Knin to observe Dragan? Are you able to say anything about what
2 Filipovic did, having been sent for that mission?
3 A. If I understood you correctly, both Dragan Filipovic and
4 Franko Simatovic, as far as I know, were sent there on the same task, and
5 that was Daniel Snedden.
6 Q. And I'm asking you -- we've established you can't say what
7 Mr. Simatovic did, and I'm asking you whether you know anything about
8 what Mr. Filipovic did, having been sent on that mission. Did he stick
9 to that mission or did he go past that mission? Do you know anything
10 about that?
11 A. More than what I have already stated, I really don't know.
12 Q. Just a question about your professional roles. We looked at
11 Pages 19934-19935 redacted. Private session.
4 MR. JORDASH:
5 Q. Let's me just quickly pick up on Vaso Mijovic. Perhaps you've
6 answered this, but let me be sure. Are you able to confirm that he was
7 never formally employed by the DB?
8 I don't think you received the name. Are you able to confirm
9 that Vaso Mijovic was never formally employed by the DB?
10 A. That's what I was told at the celebration in Kula in 1997.
11 Q. And the DB procedure, if he'd been formally employed, would have
12 been that Mr. Stanisic or the chief of the service would have had to sign
13 for that formal employment. Am I correct?
14 A. Either Mr. Stanisic or a person authorised by him within the
15 State Security Department.
16 Q. Whereas if he'd been a member of the reserve force or simply
17 associated himself with a member of the DB, there's nothing in the rules
18 which would dictate that Mr. Stanisic would have necessarily had to be
19 aware of that or authorise that; correct?
20 A. All administration issues and the status issues of anybody
21 working within the department, which includes freelancers or reserve
22 personnel, were in the competency of the then-8th department of the DB.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
25 sentence of his answer.
1 MR. JORDASH:
2 Q. Could you repeat the last sentence of your answer, please.
3 A. The only competent administration for status issues was the
4 8th Administration. That means that the signature should have been the
5 signature of the head of this administration, the signature on all
6 similar decisions, and his name I think was Milan Prodanic.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 65 ter 5611,
9 e-court page 78 and e-court B/C/S page 78.
10 Q. What's coming up on the screen, I hope, is a notebook of
11 Mr. Mladic. You saw part of it when my learned friend cross-examined you
12 on events in Banja Luka which had involved Filipovic in 1995. What --
13 you were shown part of the document which suggested -- or part of the
14 notebook which suggested a particular purpose for Serbian MUP involvement
15 in the events, and I want to ask you about another part of the diary at
16 e-court page 78. Dated, as you can see, 3rd of October, 1995, and
17 there's a meeting, it seems, with Bozovic and Filipovic and Mladic, and
18 Bozovic is quoted to have said:
19 "I am from General Bozovic's house. We came with a task you are
20 aware of. It was agreed that we would replace the RS police and that
21 they would go to forward defence line."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, in English.
24 Q. Okay. So you followed me at least?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, there's been evidence in this courtroom that Serbian MUP
2 police officers were sent to the Banja Luka region in September of 1995.
3 Do you know anything about that?
4 MR. JORDASH: And that's, Your Honours, D00522, Defence witness.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood the question
6 correctly, whether I know anything about the engagement of the public
7 security department of the Ministry of the Interior in Bosnia, I have no
8 knowledge about that.
9 MR. JORDASH: Well, then you shorten my questions. Thank you
10 very much. No more questions. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash.
12 Simatovic Defence, any further questions?
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I want us to be focussed and brief so
18 that we can finish before the break.
11 Page 19939 redacted. Private session.
24 Q. Mr. Micic, have you had the opportunity to see this document,
25 decision whereby a pistol is awarded? Have you had the opportunity to
1 see this document during the proofing session?
2 A. Yes. That is the document we discussed.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the
4 Prosecution to confirm that we have announced this document on the
5 21st of May as a document that may be used with this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem with that? Or ...
7 MR. FARR: Your Honour, I have no reason to doubt it. I haven't
8 checked Mr. Bakrac's list recently, but I have no reason to doubt his
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Micic, does this document fall within your personnel file
13 that was provided to the Defence?
14 A. Personnel file as well as the copy that was provided to me, and
15 that was the basis on which I didn't have to pay any more taxes for this
16 particular weapon.
17 Q. Was there any reason for you to hide the fact that you've
18 received this weapon as an award?
19 A. Maybe not everybody will like it, but I'm proud of it. I'm proud
20 of the reasons because of which I received this award.
21 Q. Does this decision has anything to do with the JATD or JSO?
22 A. Well, that's precisely why I was surprised by the question. I
23 truly never had any foreknowledge or any indicia that JATD had anything
24 to do with the pistol that I was awarded.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender
2 this document.
3 MR. FARR: No objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1699 will receive number D1119,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D1119 is admitted into evidence. No need to have it
8 under seal, Mr. Bakrac, I take it.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. Please proceed.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Micic, could we take a look now at D900. My learned
13 colleague Mr. Farr asked you a number of questions about the position of
14 Franko Simatovic within the 2nd Administration of the State Security
15 Department. Could you please take a look at this decision dated the
16 28th of August, 1995, whereby head of the department is changing the
17 salary coefficient for the month of August of 1995 downwards, minus
18 20 per cent. And it says: Franko Simatovic, employee of the State
19 Security Department as a special advisor at the State Security
21 Could it be possible that the head of the department does not
22 actually know the workplace, the function of Mr. Franko Simatovic?
23 A. If we are talking about Franko Simatovic, I think that there was
24 no dilemma that he was employed by Mr. Stanisic. And even if he maybe
25 didn't know details of a particular person, he always has the possibility
1 to consult the 8th Administration.
2 Q. Mr. Micic, did anybody within the State Security Department --
3 was there a possibility that anybody could work on two jobs at the same
4 moment and have two decisions for that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Micic. Now can we take a look at 65 ter 6175.
7 I'm not quite sure whether it was awarded the P number in the meantime.
8 I apologise for that.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Sorry, 6537 is the 65 ter number. I
10 misspoke. 6537 is the 65 ter. P1365 is also the number that it was
12 Q. Mr. Micic, this document is also a document that you signed. So
13 we see that this is 1995, and the previous decision is also from 1995.
14 Did this advisor in the State Security Department have an assistant for
16 A. No.
17 Q. Can you tell us why paragraph two, when you say that with the
18 mentioned Dada Jovanovic a certain Mijovic entered into an intimate
19 relationship, and he presents himself as her -- as Franko's logistics
20 assistant? Why did you place that under quotation marks?
21 A. In my view, that was nonsense, so it was highly likely that
22 Mijovic was lying too, if that Mijovic existed in the first place.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for your information, Mr. Bakrac, the
24 provisional verification of -- of what the witness said about that
25 Mijovic or a certain Mijovic, I read to you the relevant portion of this,
1 again provisional, but perhaps important for you already to know.
2 The witness, after review of the audio, but there may be some
3 unclarity as to what he said exactly, but the verification leads to the
5 "No. It's precisely what I stated in the document, that she
6 knows about it and that she even I believe had an intimate relationship
7 at the time with that Mijovic who even here held himself out to be
8 Franko's assistant for logistics and also a certain Radonjic, chief of
9 the RDB of the MUP of Serbia, and a certain Radonjic in Petrova Gora."
10 That is as far as the CLSS was able to rehear that portion and to
11 verify the translation.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Sir, Mr. Micic, I have two more documents and perhaps three
14 questions only and then I'll be done. 2420, page number 1, please.
15 Mr. Micic, my learned friend Mr. Farr asked you about some
16 signatures, but what we see up here is ZNRDB. Can you tell us what that
18 A. That that note was sent along the line of hierarchy to the deputy
19 chief of the RDB, and when a circle is placed around it, that means that
20 he was made aware of it. He familiarised himself with it.
21 Q. Do you know what happens in such cases? Who makes the decision
22 about the possible opening of a file and the registration of this kind of
24 A. In principle, that is the decision of that organisational unit
25 itself. However, with the verification, that's the expression that is
1 used, of the institution -- or, rather, it is the immediate superior
2 within the hierarchy.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Micic. Tell me - one more question, one more
4 document, and I'll finish on that note - do you have any direct knowledge
5 or did you hear of Franko Simatovic in September and October 1995 of him
6 being in Bijeljina or in the area of Banja Luka and the
7 Banja Luka Krajina?
8 A. No.
11 Pages 19946-19948 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We should have returned
2 into open session before the break, but --
3 Then the Prosecution has requested a of Witness Novakovic to be
4 further cross-examined.
5 Are you ready to further cross-examine, Mr. Weber?
6 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
8 courtroom. And perhaps there's no need to repeat that, but at the time,
9 the Chamber decided on a request for protective measures by the
10 Republic of Serbia, and the outcome was that Mr. Novakovic would testify
11 in open court but whenever the questions or the answers would touch upon
12 the identity of a person who acted as a BIA source or the identity of a
13 BIA operative or a location used by the security services, that the
14 parties then, or the witness, would request that we would move in private
15 session. That decision stands and is still valid.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back in this courtroom. The Prosecution had
20 received some new documentary material, and they would like to ask you
21 some further questions about that. That's the reason why you were
22 recalled as a witness. Thank you very much for coming again to
23 The Hague. And since it's such a long time ago, I'll invite you to again
24 make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by
25 the usher.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: RADENKO NOVAKOVIC [Recalled]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Novakovic. Please be seated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be further cross-examined by Mr. Weber.
8 Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution, and you find him to your right.
9 Please proceed.
10 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic. Thank you for returning to the
13 A. Good afternoon. Thank you.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of 65 ter
15 6545. The Prosecution requests that this document not be broadcast to
16 the public.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the
18 microphone for the sake of interpreters. Thank you.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. Sir, since your testimony last fall, the Prosecution has acquired
21 your personnel file from BIA. Before you is a decision from your file
22 dated 14 May 1992, which appoints you to the position of high inspector.
23 Directing your attention to the lower left corner, did you sign this
24 decision and acknowledge that you received it on 13 July 1992?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. At transcript page 13929 of your testimony last fall, you stated:
2 "I was an operative in charge of counter-intelligence." And, "I
3 was in charge of operative work which included applying all tactical
4 operational measures."
5 As a high inspector, did you have any supervisory
6 responsibilities at the Uzice DB between July 1992 and November 1995?
7 A. From July 1992 until when? November 1995?
8 Q. That is correct, sir. That is the time period I'm asking about.
9 A. I've already said that I spent most of my time at the centre
10 carrying out the duties that you referred to, and then towards the end of
11 1994 I went outside the Uzice centre because I went on mission until
12 July 1995. So I was at the Uzice centre from time to time. Actually, I
13 only left it from time to time, for example, during the hostage crisis,
14 and then I went to the Krajina from July until August 1995.
15 Q. Sir, that wasn't exactly my question. I was wondering if your
16 duties and responsibilities that you performed entailed any type of
17 supervisory or managerial work.
18 A. Well, as an experienced man at that time at the Uzice centre, I
19 also did have some supervisory duties when I talked to some of our
20 employees from other centres that were involved in counter-intelligence.
21 So as an operative, I also had a role to supervise and co-ordinate,
22 because if you understand me correctly, as a line operative who was
23 specifically working on counter-intelligence, I worked on that. That
24 only, that is. Whereas territorial employees who worked as detached
25 employees of the centre work in the field covering all areas including
1 counter-intelligence. If their information had to do with the field of
2 counter-intelligence, then I would be made aware of that along the lines
3 of counter-intelligence.
4 Q. On transcript page 13930, you testified about how your job
5 changed once the former Yugoslavia began to fall apart. You stated: "I
6 was still mainly preoccupied with counter intelligence as my core task.
7 However, on occasion I was used for different purposes as well. Most of
8 the issues we dealt with were part of the work of the 3rd Administration,
9 which was terrorism and extremism."
10 Is it correct that you also worked closely with the
11 3rd Administration operatives from the Uzice DB between 1992 and 1995?
12 A. Absolutely. At the request of the leadership of the centre, I
13 was involved in particular tasks that had to do with extremism and
14 terrorism, but specific tasks. A few times. That is to say, this was
15 not an ongoing task of mine.
16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D445. The
17 Prosecution requests that this document not be broadcast to the public.
18 The Prosecution has a hard copy of this document in court to assist the
19 witness with his evidence. Could the court usher please provide this
20 hard copy to the witness.
21 Q. Mr. Novakovic, this is a 3rd Administration official record of an
22 interview, dated 31 January 1992. You provided comments on this document
23 in a chart completed last fall. You stated in the chart: "I agree with
24 everything in this document. This person knows the situation very well."
25 You have the document before you, and I understand it's been some
1 time since you may have seen it. If you need to review the document,
2 please do so. But could you please let us know: Do you recall reviewing
3 this document and making those comments?
4 A. Yes, I recall reading this document last autumn, and I made those
6 Q. Please do not say the name of the individual if you know, but do
7 you know the identity of the source in this report?
8 A. I can guess who the source is in view of the time period, but I'm
9 not sure.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Weber, I should update the witness
11 again on the -- on the protective measures.
12 Mr. Novakovic, I don't know whether you remember, but you're
13 testifying mainly in open session, but whenever your answers might touch
14 upon the identity of a source or an operative of the BIA, then you should
15 ask for private session. So that's also the reason why Mr. Weber said
16 "don't mention the name," because we are at this moment in public
17 session. Similar applies -- it similarly applies to any location used by
18 the IBA [sic].
19 So therefore, if Mr. Weber puts any further questions to you
20 which in answering them would reveal the identity, for example, of this
21 source, he should ask, first of all, but otherwise you should ask for
22 private session.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. If we could please have the
25 last page of the document.
1 Q. Sir, is it correct that you are familiar with the identity of the
2 operative who signed this report?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know if this operative is still an active member of BIA?
5 A. No. He was retired before I was.
6 Q. Returning to your comment that you provided in your comment
7 chart, is the person who you referred to as knowing the situation very
8 well the source of the information in this report or the operative who
9 authored the report?
10 A. When I mention it, I meant, first of all, the operative acting in
11 that area, the man who was the operative officer covering the area
12 bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, out of caution, could we please move to
14 private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. Sir, just going back to the source of the report, you mentioned
21 that you believed you may know who this individual is. Could you please
22 tell us the name of that individual and the basis that you believe it is
23 this person?
24 A. The service's source of information are the greatest asset of
25 every service. I can guess that this is most probably Risto Perisic from
1 Visegrad, who was at that time chief of the SUP. And with your
2 permission, your question was -- your question said that this was a
3 document indicating that this information was made available to the
4 3rd Administration, dealing with extremism. That was a time when the
5 state was falling apart. All the subject matter covered in this
6 document --
7 Q. I appreciate that you like to explain. However, if you could
8 please listen to my questions, and you've answered my questions
9 sufficiently so far. If I need to, I will ask you further questions.
10 Returning to the operative, Mihajlo Lukic, did you know this
11 operative prior to 1992?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. For how long did you know him prior to 1992?
14 A. From the time he joined the department and the Uzice centre. I
15 didn't know him before that.
16 Q. Do you know the year that that occurred?
17 A. I joined on the 1st of February, 1977, and he came later, but I
18 can't remember exactly when. I was with the service from the start, and
19 he had previously been employed somewhere in the industry or business. I
20 can't -- can't remember.
21 Q. Do you know approximately when?
22 A. You know, this was over 30 years ago. It could be 1978 or 1979.
23 1979. I don't know. Or maybe 1977. I can't say with any certainty.
24 Q. Sir, I understand the passage of time. Do I understand you
25 correctly that you knew Mihajlo Lukic for quite some time before 1992?
1 A. We had been working in the service for more than ten years
2 together by that time. I knew him very well. And I still do.
3 Q. Were you familiar with his activities between 1992 and 1995 based
4 on your position at the Uzice DB centre?
5 A. I was. Mihajlo Lukic was a territorial officer based in
6 Bajina Basta. He covered that area bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina on
7 all lines of work that the Uzice centre was working on.
8 Q. Is Mihajlo Lukic related to either Milan Lukic or Sredoje Lukic?
9 A. As far as I know, he is a distant relative of theirs, three or
10 four times removed. It's a very large family, the Lukics.
11 Q. How do you know this?
12 A. I know because the papers wrote about it later. In fact, I even
13 asked him once myself. He said, Yes, I'm a distant relative. But when
14 you say that in our language, "distant relative," that means four or five
15 times removed.
16 Q. At transcript page 14034 of your earlier testimony, you discussed
19 to Banja Luka as part of your team. When did you go to Banja Luka with
20 Mihajlo Lukic?
21 A. I think it was in 1996.
22 Q. How long did you work with Mihajlo Lukic in this assignment?
23 A. He worked with me on that assignment in 1996, 1997, in the area
24 of Banja Luka.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of
1 Exhibit D744 for the witness. This exhibit contains a set of still
2 photographs from a video admitted as P1592.
3 If we could please have the photo enlarged.
4 Q. Mr. Novakovic, I'd like to direct your attention to the
5 individual in the camouflage uniform on the right side of this image, the
6 man standing behind the open hand in the photo. Is it correct that this
7 individual is Mihajlo Lukic?
8 A. I couldn't say with any certainty that it's him. It looks like
9 him, but I'm not sure. I can't be positive.
10 Q. Would it assist you to see the video of this?
11 A. Let me see.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour -- Your Honour, the Prosecution will
13 prepare that for tomorrow, and we will continue at this time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, whether it would assist the
15 witness, he would know once he has seen it, isn't it?
16 MR. WEBER: Right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, please proceed.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. At transcript pages 14042 to -43 of your earlier testimony, you
20 were asked about the situation in Bajina Basta, in Skelani in 1993 and
21 whether the situation was of special interest to you in the service. You
23 "Absolutely. That was a direct threat on the territory which was
24 then within the catchment area of our centre, and I believe that the
25 leadership of the service was informed about the situation on the
2 What did you see or hear in 1993 which made you believe that the
3 leadership of the service was informed and concerned about this
5 A. As far as I remember, and I can't say the exact date, it was a
6 long time ago, but towards the end of 1993, I think there was an attack
7 on the bridge in Skelani, a border bridge between Bajina Basta and
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, between Serbia and
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was a direct attack practically on the
10 territory of Serbia.
11 I believe even one shell landed in the centre of Bajina Basta
12 during that attack. That confirmed the threat to the population of
13 Bajina Basta and the centre for us in the intelligence centre, because
14 there had been border incidents.
15 Q. How is it that you know that the leadership of the service was
16 concerned with these events?
17 A. Not only the leadership of the service, but the leadership of the
18 entire state was very concerned, because it was the beginning of the war
19 in Bosnia and Herzegovina when loads of people started flowing in into
20 Serbia. Any large inflow of population from another state into Serbia is
21 already a cause for concern. The service was tasked directly by the
22 state with preserving the security of the country, and we had to display
23 some concern because already at that time there had been incidents,
24 border incidents and other incidents, and you remember we discussed them
25 in 1992 and early 1993. That disrupted the security situation in Serbia,
1 and the very proximity of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina raised the state
2 of alert in our service to a higher level, because we were one the organs
3 charged with security.
4 Q. You further testified when you were last here that a few
5 operatives from the Uzice centre went to assist with the situation. Was
6 Mihajlo Lukic one of these operatives?
7 A. Mihajlo Lukic was an operative based in Bajina Basta itself. He
8 lived there, he worked there, and he covered the territory that he
9 covered. But as the situation became more and more complex in
10 Bajina Basta and the border belt, I believe additional operatives were
11 sent to him from the Uzice on several occasions because he could not
12 manage the entire workload on his own.
13 Q. Could we please return to open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Could the Prosecution please return to 65 ter 6545, this time
20 page 2 of the B/C/S original and page 3 of the English translation. The
21 Prosecution again requests that the 65 ter number not be shown to the
23 Mr. Novakovic, this is a decision from your personnel file dated
24 16 January 1995, which is from Jovica Stanisic. Directing your attention
25 again to the lower left-hand corner of this document, does your signature
1 appear in this corner, and did you acknowledge receiving this decision on
2 26 January 1995?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. According to this decision, Mr. Stanisic augmented your salary by
5 20 per cent for the month of January 1995. The section entitled
6 "Statement of reasons" indicates you showed above-average engagement and
7 achieved extraordinary results.
8 Were you assigned outside of the territory of the republic of
9 Serbia at or near the time of this decision?
10 A. Let me tell you now, looking back and looking at this document, I
11 can tell you exactly what it was about. The date here is
12 26 January 1995. From the 5th or 6th of November until 15 December 1994,
13 I was assigned to tasks and missions in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
14 In our service, you got awards only on the basis of your performance and
15 specific results, and before this there was no chance for me to earn an
16 award, because I was not entitled to a special remuneration, only daily
17 allowances for days spent in the Krajina, and this is the solution
18 they -- they found to remunerate me. My head of centre decided to
19 formulate it as above-average performance.
20 Q. So is your answer, then: Yes, it is correct you were assigned
21 outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia around this time in the
23 A. In the period of November to mid-December 1994, yes.
24 Q. When you were last here, you were shown and it was admitted a set
25 of per diems that you received from November 1994. Was this decision in
1 addition to those per diems that you received?
2 A. Those were the only per diems I received in that period when I
3 was in Krajina.
4 Q. Yes, but my question --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you look at the previous answer of the
6 witness, Mr. Weber, and see ...
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. I -- Mr. Novakovic, I see that you've described this as an award.
9 Was this an award that was something in addition to the payment of
10 per diems that you received in November 1994?
11 A. Yes. That was my salary increased by 20 per cent.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, this seems to be perfectly clear what the
13 witness said, "Because I was not entitled to a special remuneration, only
14 daily allowances for days spent in the Krajina, and this is the solution
15 they found to remunerate me." That, in my view, clearly is to be
16 understood is that, apart from the daily allowances, that this was
17 additional remuneration for the services he had -- he had provided in the
18 Krajina. I'm wondering what --
19 MR. WEBER: If that's clear, then --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm looking at anyone else whether I have a
21 wrong understanding, but -- okay. Then please proceed.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Is it possible that you actually received this award because you
24 were stationed in Bijeljina in late 1994 and 1995?
25 A. I think you got these periods wrong. You confused the period
1 when I was in Bijeljina with the period when I was in Krajina. This
2 relates to the period when I was in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, from
3 November to December, and I was in Bijeljina later, on a different
5 Q. When were you in Bijeljina?
6 A. It's not easy, but I'll try. I was in Bijeljina towards the end
7 of 1995. I left for Bijeljina in end 1995, and I stayed there for quite
8 a longer period. I believe it might have been November/December. End of
9 November or early December I left for Bijeljina.
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the B/C/S
11 and page 7 of the English translation.
12 Q. This is a similar decision dated 10 October 1995, also again from
13 Mr. Stanisic. Directing your attention to the lower left corner. Does
14 your signature appear at the bottom of this document, and did you
15 acknowledge --
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. -- receiving this decision -- did you receive this decision on
18 16 October 1995?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. According to this decision, your salary as a member of the
21 Uzice DB centre was again augmented by 20 per cent for the month of
22 October 1995. Do you know why your salary was augmented for this month?
23 A. Look, in July and August 1995, I was also in Krajina, and I
24 believe my salary was then increased by 50 per cent, and this is the end
25 of the reporting period, the month of October, because we had our extra
1 part of the salary determined for -- on a quarterly basis. I believe
2 that was the reason for this salary increase. I'm not sure, but that is
3 the period.
4 Q. Were you assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia
5 at any time during October 1995?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where were you stationed?
8 A. From the 5th or 6th of July, I believe, until the 5th or
9 6th of August, 1995. That was the time I was in the Republic of Serbian
11 Q. Sir, I asked you about October 1995. I'll repeat my question.
12 Were you assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia during
13 this month, October 1995?
14 A. In October I was at the Uzice centre, in Uzice.
15 Q. Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the B/C/S and page 9
16 of the English translation.
17 This is a decision dated 13 February 1996, also from
18 Mr. Stanisic. I would again ask you to look at the signature in the
19 lower left-hand corner and tell us whether or not this is your signature
20 and did you receive this decision on 24 February 1996?
21 A. Yes, this is my signature. And since I see the date here, it
22 must mean that I received it on this date.
23 Q. This document states:
24 "Decision. To direct Novakovic, Radenko employee of the Uzice
25 State Security Department of the Ministry of the Interior to the official
1 duty in Sremska Mitrovica State Security Department starting from the
2 20th of December, 1995." And, "50 per cent from the salary index prize
3 money is attributed to him."
4 Sir, I'd like to direct you back to your testimony of last fall.
5 At transcript page 14074, you were asked the following question:
6 "Were you ever assigned to Sremska Mitrovica as a permanent
7 employee between 1996 and 1999?"
8 You answered:
9 "I was never assigned to Mitrovica, but that area that I went to
10 sometime was directly across from Mitrovica."
11 Sir, is the location that you were at that was directly across
12 from Mitrovica Bijeljina?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. After seeing this decision, does it correspond in terms of the
15 date of 20th of December with the date you were sent to Bijeljina?
16 A. It does. I may have gone just before this date, but this
17 decision is true. That is the period when I went there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, and I'm already a bit
22 MR. WEBER: Okay. I understand, Your Honour. I can continue
24 JUDGE ORIE: You can continue tomorrow, and this would be a
25 suitable moment?
1 MR. WEBER: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Novakovic, we'd like to see you back
3 tomorrow morning, and everyone is -- that's the 31st of May at 9.00 in
4 this same courtroom, and all parties will make a good effort to conclude
5 your additional testimony tomorrow. That's -- when I'm looking at the
6 other parties, that is understood as well.
7 Then I again would like to instruct you that you should not
8 speak, Mr. Novakovic, to anyone or to communicate in any other way with
9 anyone about your testimony, whether that's testimony you've given
10 already today or in the fall of last year or still to be given tomorrow.
11 We stand adjourned. And we resume on the 31st of May, 9.00 in
12 the morning, in this same courtroom, II.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day
16 of May, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.