1 Monday, 19 January 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Ms. Somers, you are to call a
6 further witness now, I believe. If you would call the case for hearing.
7 We'll have the case called first. I was jumping ahead.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-42-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Pavle Strugar.
10 MS. SOMERS: The Prosecution will call as its witness
11 Lars Jensen Brolund.
12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, only
13 briefly: My colleague, Mr. Petrovic, still has to correct Exhibit number
14 10, or rather, add the translation, and this is ready now, in connection
15 with the cross-examination of Mrs. Alajbeg.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE PARKER: I'm very sorry to say, Mr. Rodic, that I didn't
18 have my headphones on, and by the time I got them on, you had finished.
19 So I'm not sure what it was that you were putting to us.
20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] My colleague, Mr. Petrovic, during his
21 cross-examination of the previous witness, Mrs. Alajbeg, still had to add
22 a translation into English of Exhibit number 10, and this is the
23 translation now. Thank you.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Rodic.
25 Now if Mr. Brolund would take the affirmation.
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: LARS JENSEN BROLUND
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. If you would be seated.
5 Ms. Somers.
6 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examined by Ms. Somers:
8 Q. Would you please state your full name for the Court.
9 A. I have to make a little correction to my statement. My full name
10 is not Lars Brolund but Lars Jensen Brolund.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Brolund. Would you indicate your date of birth?
12 A. 26th of December, 1953.
13 Q. And what is your nationality, please?
14 A. I'm Danish.
15 Q. Which languages do you speak?
16 A. I speak Croatian, English, German, and some Russian.
17 Q. Mr. Brolund, in the course of this examination, we will be
18 speaking in the English language. I am aware that it is not your first
19 language, and I will attempt to go slowly and clearly, and I would ask
20 you, if there is a question about anything I have asked you, if you would
21 please ask to have it repeated or clarified.
22 A. Thank you very much.
23 Q. Mr. Brolund, if you could give us a little bit of your background.
24 What was your profession in 1999, let us say from the middle of 1991, I'm
25 terribly sorry -- until the end of 1991, what were you doing?
1 A. At that time I was working as a clerk at the local administration
3 Q. And did you have military service in your background? Were you a
4 member of the military of Denmark?
5 A. I was at that time, and I still am a reserve officer.
6 Q. What is your rank, please, Mr. Brolund?
7 A. I'm a first lieutenant.
8 Q. Were you a first lieutenant at the time in 1991, let us say in
9 October of 1991?
10 A. At that time, I was contemporarily promoted into the grade of
11 major, when I was serving at the European Monitoring Mission.
12 Q. How did you come to serve with the European Community Monitoring
14 A. I volunteered. I made a telephone call to the Danish army and
15 asked if it would be possible for me to be a member of the mission, and I
16 was accepted as a member of the first Danish group to go down as part of
17 the mission.
18 Q. Did you have some background in the region and/or with the
19 language at the time?
20 A. Yes. Besides my degree in law, I had also a bachelor degree in
21 Slavonic languages, that is, in Russian and B/C/S, and I had been studying
22 B/C/S at university, together with Russian, and I had been dealing rather
23 much with Yugoslavia.
24 Q. In the interests of time, I may simply ask you to give a little
25 bit of a background, perhaps a bit more quickly, since it appears you are
1 able to understand the questions.
2 When did you actually go to the former Yugoslavia as part of the
3 monitoring mission?
4 A. As far as I remember, it was on the 17th of July, 1991.
5 Q. And at what point did you go to the Dubrovnik area?
6 A. I arrived to the Dubrovnik area for the first time on the 5th of
7 October, 1991.
8 Q. And where were you with the mission before you arrived at
9 Dubrovnik? What were your placements? Where were you located?
10 A. As you know, the headquarters of the mission was in Zagreb, and
11 during the first months of the work of the mission, we had our taskings in
12 Slovenia and in Croatia as well, so I had taskings in different parts,
13 some Slovenia and Croatia.
14 Q. Are you aware what had taken place in Slovenia and Croatia in June
15 of 1991?
16 A. Yes. I had been following that rather detailed, because I had to
17 go down to attend a language course in Ljubljana, Slovenia, from about the
18 1st of July, 1991.
19 Q. And what happened? Did you in fact attend the course without any
20 difficulty, or what was your experience there at that time?
21 A. I made a request, because of the situation, through the telephone,
22 and I was told that the course would take place, and therefore I went down
23 to Ljubljana by train at the end of June 1991.
24 Q. What was the situation at the time, as you understood it? What
25 had happened?
1 A. Well, at that time, as far as I remember, the 25th of June, 1991,
2 Slovenia and Croatia had declared their independence.
3 Q. You indicated, I believe, that you were in Zagreb. Now, did you
4 at some point have an assignment to the Dubrovnik area? When did it
5 begin, if you did?
6 A. I beg your pardon. I didn't understand the question.
7 Q. Let me repeat it. I'm sorry if I perhaps complicated it for you.
8 When did your assignment in the Dubrovnik area actually start?
9 A. As I said a little before, I arrived to Dubrovnik for the first
10 time on the 5th of October, 1991.
11 Q. May I take a moment to bring the Chamber's attention, and perhaps
12 I should seek to have it admitted at this time. Mr. Brolund, you have, in
13 the course of your work in Dubrovnik on the mission, did you keep notes
14 that were made either at the time or contemporaneously with your work?
15 Did you keep notes?
16 A. Yes, I did, and I have here by me some parts of my diary and
17 personal notes.
18 Q. Personal notes we are not interested in, but notes that relate to
19 the work of the mission, did you keep those notes?
20 A. Yes, I have them here with me.
21 Q. And did you provide copies of them to the Office of the Prosecutor
22 when you gave a statement?
23 A. Yes, I did so.
24 Q. And have you reviewed the copies that were given, and can you
25 indicate they are the same copies of the same notes that you personally
1 took during the course of being a monitor in Dubrovnik?
2 A. Yes. I have been able to establish that.
3 MS. SOMERS: I would ask, in order to facilitate the following by
4 the Chamber, that we first of all circulate the exhibit, which is from the
5 65 ter list. I won't worry about the 65 ter list number, but I will ask
6 that it be identified by the ERN 02187221 et seq.
7 JUDGE PARKER: This should be given a number now.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P21.
9 MS. SOMERS:
10 Q. Mr. Brolund, the document which is in front of you, Exhibit P21,
11 is that in fact -- does that represent a copy of the notes? It should
12 be -- is it on the screen as well? It is also on your computer screen as
13 computer evidence, if it would assist you. Are these the same notes that
14 you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor and that came -- that were
15 made by you personally?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. I note that in the course of them, there is a mixture of the
18 Danish language and the English language, and as a result, an attempt was
19 made to have a translation from Danish, which we have discussed is not
20 very satisfactory. It has some gaps, as you have seen and pointed out to
21 us as well; correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Because of that, we would, of course, try to have a better
24 translation provided, but for the purposes of today's testimony, I may ask
25 you, when referring to something in your notes that may have gone into
1 your statement, if you could be kind enough to read it and then offer us
2 into English what may be in the Danish or what may be unclear to the
3 person who translated or attempted to translate. Are we agreed on that?
4 A. Oh, yes, certainly. That's no problem.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MS. SOMERS: I'll ask that this be moved into evidence -- I'm
7 sorry. I assume with the issuing of a number, it has been.
8 Q. Mr. Brolund, what was your essential assignment? What were some
9 of the component parts of your assignment as a monitor? What were you
10 there to do?
11 A. Well, as the name itself of the mission tells, we were there to
12 monitor. And according to the agreement made between the parties, first
13 and foremost, to monitor the ceasefire, as far as I remember.
14 Q. Now, you were in Zagreb initially, but when you got down to
15 Dubrovnik, was there a different headquarters for the area that covered
16 Dubrovnik? Was there a regional headquarters?
17 A. So at the middle or from the end of October 1991, the mission
18 established original headquarter at Split.
19 Q. In Dalmatia?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And did you -- who was the head of the regional centre in Split,
23 A. The head of the regional centre in Split was the Italian
24 ambassador, Mr. Bondioli.
25 Q. And when you make reference, if you do make reference to
1 Mr. Bondioli throughout your diary, any parts of it, how do you indicate
2 he is the person you're referring to? Do you have an initial -- what is
3 your way in your notes of indicating that?
4 A. Yes. I used the initial B and a point.
5 Q. B. B as in boy?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Tell us, please: How did you get to the Dubrovnik area? What was
8 your actual route? And how long were you there the first time?
9 A. We went by -- we would go out to the coast, to the little town of
10 Crikvenica, and from there, we went by ship. We did think that we had to
11 go to Split, but on the 4th of October, we learned that we had to go to
12 Dubrovnik, where we stayed until the 10th of October.
13 Q. Were you able to -- would you have been able to have gotten to
14 Dubrovnik on land?
15 A. I don't think so.
16 Q. Why would that be?
17 A. Because the traffic routes simply were disinterrupted [sic]
18 because of the military operations going on.
19 Q. What was the situation in the harbour of Dubrovnik? Was it -- was
20 open entry possible? What was the situation there?
21 A. As far as I remember, at that time the blockade of the coast was
22 already established.
23 Q. And when you came into Dubrovnik, did you have to go through that
25 A. Yes. Yes. Well, I can establish that there was a blockade
1 already at that time, because we had to get clearance.
2 Q. Where are you reading from? Are you reading from your diary?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. Could you indicate to the Chamber, please, the page. It would be
5 okay, I believe, just to indicate the number at the top. It would have an
6 02 something number. Which page are you reading from?
7 A. Yes. Page -- the first page, 02187221.
8 Q. When you got into Dubrovnik, where were you accommodated?
9 A. We were accommodated at the Hotel Argentina.
10 Q. Who else, if anyone, was accommodated there? I'm sorry. Let me
11 just ask you. Was that for the entire mission? Were all ECMM
12 accommodated there?
13 A. There were also accommodated some refugees there.
14 Q. What did you do upon your arrival? What was your first official
15 obligation in the Dubrovnik area?
16 A. At first we had a meeting with a crisis staff.
17 Q. The Crisis Staff?
18 A. The Crisis Staff, yes.
19 Q. And is that a Croatian organisation?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. What level were these -- what level were these people? Were they
22 from the area or from Zagreb?
23 A. They were from the area.
24 Q. Now, on the 5th of October, can you indicate whether or not
25 something occurred while you were walking along to your hotel. Did
1 something happen that was worth discussing here?
2 A. Well, there was a little episode with some shelling.
3 Q. Shelling from where, if you know?
4 A. It seemed to us that the shelling came from the sea.
5 Q. And shelling by which forces, if you know?
6 A. Well, we were not -- we couldn't see anything, so we were in fact
7 not able to establish that.
8 Q. What did you do in response to the shelling?
9 A. We immediately -- my colleague, Leif Maersk and I, fell to the
10 ground to get shelter.
11 Q. Where did the shells land, if you had to fall to the ground? Why
12 did you fall to the ground?
13 A. They were landing relatively close to us.
14 Q. Are you reading now from your notes? If so, could you indicate
15 the page.
16 A. Yes. The page is now 02187221.
17 Q. How long were you on the ground, if you know? If you can
19 A. So about five minutes. I think.
20 Q. During your stay in Dubrovnik, did you ever -- during the first
21 stay in Dubrovnik and that would be up till the 10th of October, did you
22 go behind JNA lines?
23 A. No. We were trying to establish contact with the JNA authorities,
24 but we did not succeed in that.
25 Q. And so your initial contacts during that time were with the
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. Just a quick question: Are you familiar with a feature called
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. And can you just tell us what it is and perhaps where -- what it
7 represents to you?
8 A. Well, it's an old military object in the mountains, just above
9 Dubrovnik. It dates, as far as I know, back to the Napoleon wars.
10 Q. And at that point in time, do you know who was holding Srdj, which
11 forces were holding Srdj?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Did you observe anything happening to the cross on Srdj?
14 A. Yes. One day during my first stay in Dubrovnik, there was an air
16 Q. By which forces?
17 A. Well, it seems to me that it can only be the JNA air force,
18 because the Croats didn't have any air force at that time.
19 Q. And what was the result of this air attack? What happened, if you
20 remember, or if it's in your diary?
21 A. As far as I remember, the big cross was destroyed on the -- the
22 big cross on the mountains above Dubrovnik was destroyed.
23 Q. When you left Dubrovnik on the 10th, where did you go?
24 A. We went back by boat to Zagreb.
25 Q. What did you do in Zagreb?
1 A. At that time, I had leave. We arrived at Zagreb on the 12th of
2 October, and the same day I left Zagreb by train, to have leave in
4 Q. When did you arrive back in the theatre of the former Yugoslavia?
5 A. I arrived again at Zagreb on the 20th of October.
6 Q. And did you go back to Dubrovnik?
7 A. Not at once. At that time, the mission was going to establish its
8 regional centre at Split, and so the same day I was also sent to Split.
9 Q. How did you get to Split, if you can just quickly tell us, please?
10 A. Also by boat.
11 Q. From which city?
12 A. From Rijeka, I think.
13 Q. Now, what was the purpose, what was the first thing you needed to
14 do, or you were supposed to do, when you got there? What was your first
15 official function on the 28th of October?
16 A. On the 28th of October. Well, according to my notes, I had some
17 taskings already on the 21st of October.
18 Q. And they would have been what?
19 A. It was, according to my diary, some meetings in a little town
20 called Zitnic, near Drnis.
21 Q. After you completed that particular tasking, did you go to attend
22 a meeting on the 28th of October?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. What was the nature of that meeting, and what was the purpose of
25 that meeting?
1 A. Well, it was a meeting with General Strugar at Meljine, in the
2 Boka Kotorska and it was a courtesy call.
3 Q. A courtesy call. Are you able to indicate the page from which
4 these entries would have been drawn in your diary, in your notes?
5 A. Yes. The first page is 02187223.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 Now, looking at that page, and again, apologising for the quality
8 of the English -- attempt at an English translation, I'm going to ask you
9 about the meeting. Can you tell us, please, who was present at that
10 meeting? My specific question is: Was it -- was there a Croatian
11 presence, or if not, who?
12 A. No, there was no Croatian presence. Present were the following
13 persons: From the JNA side, General Pavle Strugar, Frigate Captain
14 Jeremic, Vice Admiral Miodrag Jokic, and Lieutenant Colonel Svicevic.
15 Q. Where was the meeting held?
16 A. It was held at some military barracks at Meljine.
17 Q. And where is Meljine?
18 A. In Montenegro.
19 Q. How did you get to Meljine from Croatia?
20 A. We went by boat from Split, into the harbour of Herceg-Novi.
21 Q. And from there, how did you get to Meljine?
22 A. With some vehicle, which I don't remember.
23 Q. Do you remember any recollection of where in Meljine the meeting
24 was held?
25 A. No, I haven't. Only that it was at some military object.
1 Q. You mentioned four names. You mentioned Pavle Strugar, Svicevic,
2 Jokic, and Jeremic. Are you able to tell us from your understanding at
3 the time what forces, in other words, was there a break-up of land forces
4 and naval, and if so, who was who?
5 A. Yes. Pavle Strugar and Svicevic did belong to army forces, and
6 Jokic and Jeremic to the navy.
7 Q. Did you have any indication from anything at that meeting who was
8 leading the meeting, who was in charge?
9 A. Yes. It appeared that General Strugar was in charge.
10 Q. What factors made you come to that conclusion?
11 A. Well, he was sitting so at the middle of the table, on his side of
12 the table, and he was doing most of the talking from that side, among
13 other things.
14 Q. And what was your -- most of the talking. What types of topics
15 were discussed at that meeting?
16 A. According to my notes, our ambassador, Bondioli, did explain
17 something about the work of our new regional centre at Split, which had
18 just been established, and about the work of the monitoring mission.
19 Q. Who was present from the mission with you? You said Mr. Bondioli.
20 Was there any other monitor?
21 A. Yes. Mr. Bondioli was the leader of our team, and present was
22 also Mr. Haupt and myself.
23 Q. And was the -- were the remarks of General Strugar addressed
24 as - you describe him chairing the meeting - addressed to your head of
1 A. Yes. So I remember it.
2 Q. In your various minutes that we have, do you make any indications
3 when you refer to General Strugar, how do you indicate that he either
4 commented or spoke in your minutes? What do you use?
5 A. I indicate that with the initials G.S.
6 Q. That is, where you have not specifically spelled out the full name
7 of Strugar, you use his initials; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Throughout this document which all of us have, where we see G.S.,
10 that means General Strugar?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Now, can you tell us a bit about the nature of the discussion
13 there? What topics were brought to the table?
14 A. Well, as I've already said, Mr. Bondioli told something about the
15 work of the regional centre and monitoring mission as such, and then there
16 were also discussed some points sent by General Strugar to the mission and
17 the Croatian side about the situation in Dubrovnik.
18 Q. Sent by General Strugar? In other words, General Strugar was
19 discussing points about Croatia -- the Croatian...?
20 A. Yes. I remember that document. It was signed by General Strugar.
21 Q. When you say "document," what are you referring to when you say
22 "points about Croatians"? What was the subject matter? Where were these
23 points contained?
24 A. Well, it contained several proposals, that was the word used, how
25 the situation in the Dubrovnik area could be solved, according to
1 different problems. So --
2 Q. May I just interrupt you for just a second? I would ask, please,
3 that the usher distribute copies of the next exhibit I wish to tender,
4 which -- it is in both B/C/S and in English. It bears ERN in the
5 Serbo-Croatian language 01846651, with the English translation commencing
6 with 01846652.
7 Do you recognise this document?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. What is this document?
10 A. Well, the word here used is that it's some propositions for the
11 normalisation of life in Dubrovnik.
12 Q. And was this document discussed at the meeting in Meljine, at
13 which General Strugar was present, on the 28th of October?
14 A. Yes, it was.
15 MS. SOMERS: I would ask that -- to tender into evidence the
17 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received into evidence.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P22.
19 MS. SOMERS:
20 Q. Looking at the document that you have before you - and you have it
21 both in your hand, and I believe it would also be on the screen - do you
22 remember the discussions that concerned this document at the meeting? Can
23 you tell us a bit of what was said?
24 A. Well, I can't recall in my memory much of what was said at this
1 Q. Did you make notes of it? Are these contained in your diary?
2 A. Yes, I have notes about that contained in my diary.
3 Q. Would you please refer us to the numbers of those pages so it will
4 assist us in following.
5 A. The first page is 02187224, et cetera.
6 Q. Okay. Before we get into any of the actual text of the document:
7 Was there -- let me go back for a second. Who raised the issue of the
8 contents of this document? Where did the discussion come from? Who
9 brought it up at that meeting?
10 A. Well, I really don't remember, and I'm not even able to establish
12 Q. Let me rephrase this so that you're familiar with -- so that we go
13 back and it's clear to you. What was the nature of this document? Can
14 you tell us what it represented? And who put the document out?
15 A. I beg your pardon? Who put --?
16 Q. Whose document was it? Who actually put out this piece of paper
17 that's in front of you?
18 A. Well --
19 Q. Whose signature -- whose name is under the document?
20 A. Well, the document is signed by Pavle Strugar.
21 Q. So the name Strugar appears -- Pavle Strugar appears at the end of
22 the document?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Albeit I don't know that there's a signature, but his name is
25 under the document; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Now, did General Strugar discuss this document at the meeting?
3 A. Yes. Both Svicevic and Admiral Jokic and General Strugar made
4 comments in different ways on these points.
5 Q. Would you tell us, please, what Mr. Svicevic said about the
7 A. He told that it was -- he said that it was a big misunderstanding
8 concerning that he told that the army had not put any ultimatum, but just
9 some propositions.
10 Q. Proposals. Okay. And I think you had indicated that he had said
11 he had not given. Was there a correction in the transcript about the
12 translation of what Mr. Svicevic said that you wished to make? Did he say
13 that does not give ultimatums or has not?
14 A. Well, it's formulated a little differently in my statement, and I
15 have to correct that a little.
16 Q. Would you please.
17 A. Because he did not speak generally, but only about these 11
18 points, where he said that the army had not given these 11 points, put any
19 ultimatum, but just some proposals.
20 Q. And in the Serbo-Croatian language, what is the word that is
21 actually used?
22 A. The word is "Predlozi."
23 Q. And that would translate to?
24 A. Proposals, propositions.
25 Q. Looking at the document, I'd like to do a quick run-through with
1 you. And what was the purpose of these, as it were, proposals? What were
2 they trying to achieve, according to the document?
3 A. According to its own wording, it was to achieve the normalisation
4 of life in Dubrovnik.
5 Q. And anything else? Is there anything else that's indicated there?
6 A. And securing the town of Dubrovnik.
7 Q. What is the date on this document, please?
8 A. The date is the 27th of October, 1991.
9 Q. That is at the end I see 27. What date is at the top of the
11 A. Oh, at the top of the document, the date is the 25th of October.
12 Q. And to whom was this document actually addressed?
13 A. It was addressed for the members of the EC mission and the crisis
14 headquarters of Dubrovnik.
15 Q. Also referred to as the Crisis Staff?
16 A. I think so.
17 Q. Point 1 of the document reads -- are you able to take a look and
18 just assist us in going through it very quickly? What is point 1 of the
19 document, please?
20 A. Point 1 is that all the weapons situated in the zone of Dubrovnik
21 should be surrendered to the JNA.
22 Q. To your knowledge, did the Croatians ever do this? Did they ever
23 agree to do this as of that time?
24 A. Not to my knowledge.
25 Q. The second point?
1 A. The second point is that the JNA controlled the surrender of the
2 weapons with the EC Monitoring Mission.
3 Q. Was that something that the ECMM agreed to undertake? Were they
4 going to ever assist in the collection of weapons?
5 A. Not to my knowledge.
6 Q. And did that happen with ECMM?
7 A. Not to my knowledge.
8 Q. Third, please.
9 A. That members of ZNG and MUP of Dubrovnik were not residents of
10 Dubrovnik since before January 1st, 1991 had to leave the area of the
11 municipality of Dubrovnik. The JNA guarantees their safe leave.
12 Q. To your knowledge, did that occur?
13 A. No. I couldn't acknowledge that.
14 Q. Number 4.
15 A. That all foreign mercenaries should be surrendered to the
16 diplomatic representatives of their countries, who will deport them from
17 Yugoslavia. The JNA guarantees their safe leave.
18 Q. Did that ever happen, to your knowledge?
19 A. Not to my knowledge.
20 Q. Number 5.
21 A. That the MUP should be brought in to the states as of January
22 23rd, 1991, and responsibility and independently regulate the peace and
23 respect of the legal norms in Dubrovnik.
24 Q. Responsibly and independently regulate the peace and respect of
25 the legal norms in Dubrovnik; is that what that says?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you please explain first before I ask you a second question
3 about that. What is the MUP? What does MUP mean?
4 A. In fact, that is the police. These letters mean Ministarstvo
5 Unutrasnjih Poslova, the Ministry of Interior affairs.
6 Q. And what is the ZNG?
7 A. That is Zbor Narodne Garde, a military formation put up by the
8 Croats at that time.
9 Q. To your knowledge, did point number 5 materialise? Did it happen?
10 Did it occur?
11 A. Not to my knowledge.
12 Q. Point number 6.
13 A. That all signs of political parties should be removed from public
14 places on the area of the municipality of Dubrovnik.
15 Q. Did that occur?
16 A. I don't know anything about that.
17 Q. Number 7.
18 A. The JNA guarantees an absolute ceasefire of its members and the
19 security of the citizens, and Dubrovnik with its cultural and historical
21 Q. Its cultural and historical monuments are acknowledged in this
22 document, then; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And that the JNA would protect or guarantee the security of those
25 monuments. Was that your understanding of that point?
1 A. Yes, as one of these 11 points.
2 Q. Do you know whether or not that came to pass? Did that occur?
3 A. It seems to me that the opposite did happen.
4 Q. Point number 8.
5 A. Armed formations of the JNA not to enter Dubrovnik on the line
6 from the crossroads one kilometre west from the village of Dupac to
7 settlement Mokosica.
8 Q. Do you know whether or not that occurred?
9 A. No. No, I don't know.
10 Q. Number 9.
11 A. JNA to organise the control of entrance and exit from Dubrovnik in
12 order to safe the city.
13 Q. Tell us, please: Entrance and exit to and from Dubrovnik. What
14 was the reality of who controlled entrance and exit to and from Dubrovnik
15 at that time anyway?
16 A. At that time, Dubrovnik was already encircled and blocked, both on
17 land and from the sea.
18 Q. By?
19 A. By the JNA and the JRM.
20 Q. Point 10, please.
21 A. As soon as possible, the JNA will provide to the appropriate
22 working organisations of the city of Dubrovnik the supply of electricity,
23 water, PTT connections and other accompanying infrastructures and economic
25 Q. Now, when they refer to the city of Dubrovnik in this particular
1 context, are we also including the Old Town, the old centre of town of
3 A. So it appears.
4 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, what was your observation, having
5 lived through it, of the state of infrastructure at the time?
6 A. When we were there at the beginning of October, there were already
7 no electricity.
8 Q. What about at this point in time? We're now talking about the
9 28th of October. What was the situation at the time?
10 A. I didn't --
11 Q. Still no electricity? Was there still no electricity?
12 A. Well, at that time, I had not myself been in Dubrovnik from after
13 the 10th of October.
14 Q. After you -- after this meeting, did you then go into Dubrovnik,
15 and did you determine what the state of the infrastructure was about this
17 A. Yes. After having finished the meeting with General Strugar, we
18 went into Dubrovnik.
19 Q. And what was the state of the infrastructure? How were things
20 with water, electricity, et cetera, necessities?
21 A. In fact, I don't remember.
22 Q. Point 11 on the second page. Yes.
23 A. All these conditions are valid until the final agreed solution of
24 the Yugoslav crisis.
25 Q. So does it appear that these conditions are tied to a more global
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 set of events than just what is happening in Dubrovnik?
2 A. Yes, so it appears.
3 Q. When was the reply to this expected? What does it tell us?
4 A. Well, according to the last sentence, a reply was expected by
5 October 27th.
6 Q. Now, this -- at a particular time? Does it give you a time?
7 October 27th, and is there a time indicated?
8 A. Oh, yes. At 8.00 p.m.
9 Q. Now, you are meeting on 28th of October. What time did your
10 meeting start, approximately?
11 A. I'm not able to establish that in my notes, and I don't remember.
12 Q. All right. But the date of October 28th is after October 27th, do
13 we agree on that?
14 A. Yes, certainly.
15 Q. Now, did it appear to you from the discussions at this meeting
16 that there had been a response or compliance from the Croatian side?
17 A. It appeared to me that that was not the case.
18 Q. And what was the atmosphere that you felt about this at the
19 meeting, that you felt from General Strugar, Admiral Jokic? How did that
20 manifest itself, that this had not had a response?
21 A. Well, according to my notes, Admiral Jokic - that's in the middle
22 of page 02187225 - proposed a detailed examination of the 11 points and an
23 answer from the Croatian side.
24 Q. And what was General Strugar's comment, if any, about the points
25 that are called here proposals or propositions?
1 A. On the same page, I have a note that General Strugar said that
2 these points were of only humanitarian character, so they were no
4 Q. Did there come any discussion -- I'm sorry. Let me just ask
5 another question about this. Now, did General Strugar ever talk about
6 whether or not he was acting outside of the political network, or what did
7 he say about the politician side of things?
8 A. Yes. He said something about that, and two occasions during -- or
9 more; I have noted two occasions during the meeting. On page 02187224,
10 about the middle, I have noted that he said that his side will just
11 implement the political will, and will not do anything on its own, that it
12 is subordinated military commands in Belgrade and Zagreb.
13 Q. Would you explain. Belgrade may be clear. What was the
14 relationship in Zagreb? What was there of the JNA?
15 A. Because the Peta Vojna Oblast, the 5th Military District.
16 Q. Of the JNA?
17 A. Of the JNA, was in Zagreb.
18 Q. Do you happen --
19 A. At that time.
20 Q. Sorry. Excuse me. Do you happen to recall if there was a JNA
21 liaison person? If you recall, in the 5th Military District? Do you
22 know? To the ECMM?
23 A. Yes. General Raseta.
24 Q. Did you hear from General Strugar as to his relationship to
25 the -- what is referred to in your statement, but I believe more
1 specifically referred to in your notes as the SSNO? If you could tell us,
2 please, where that is found.
3 A. Yes. He said also something about that. It was later during the
4 meeting, on page 02187226. There was a break in the meeting, and after
5 that, according to my notes, General Strugar stressed that he was strictly
6 obeying orders from the SSNO, that is, the federal Ministry of Defence.
7 Q. Of what entity? Of what?
8 A. Of Yugoslavia.
9 Q. Now, a quick point of clarification. When you make reference to
10 Admiral Jokic in your notes, if you do not specifically spell out Jokic,
11 how do you indicate that it is something that he has said? What was your
12 abbreviation or notation for Admiral Jokic?
13 A. I use the abbreviation ADM point, and a big G point.
14 Q. J?
15 A. A big J point.
16 Q. Thank you very much. Was there any discussion about the JNA
17 soldiers firing on the Croatians? Was there anything that the general
18 himself discussed with your delegation about the nature of firing activity
19 by the Croatians?
20 A. Well, I have something about that also in my notes. Yes. It was
21 also at the same time during the meeting when General Strugar stressed
22 that he was obeying orders from the Ministry of Defence. He said a little
23 later that projectiles, fire, not directly threatening soldiers from the
24 Croatian side should be tolerated. The first time, the second time, the
25 third time.
1 Q. And where is that in your notes? If you could give us the page,
3 A. It's also on the page 02187226.
4 Q. Thank you. I note that the 1, 2, three times did not make it into
5 your statement. Are you correcting it now to indicate that it was first
6 time, second time, third time?
7 A. Yes. So it was said, according to my notes, so I have to correct
8 that also.
9 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me.
10 Q. And then what would happen after the first time, the second time,
11 the third time, as General Strugar indicated to you?
12 A. I understood it so that the first three times, it might be
13 tolerated, but then fire would be answered.
14 Q. Now, as of the 28th of October, 1991, had you been aware of the
15 JNA already firing or shelling or engaging their weaponry against
17 A. I remember from our first visit to Dubrovnik at the beginning of
18 October that we were shown some impacts at the Old Town walls.
19 Q. And you had made reference, I believe, to some air engagement.
20 A. Yes. I have already mentioned the attack -- the air attack on the
21 cross, and I have also mentioned the episode with shelling we had
23 Q. Did you observe Admiral Jokic making any comments about this, or
24 was it just General Strugar?
25 A. No, I don't remember that.
1 Q. Is it in your notes that anything said by Admiral Jokic on this,
2 or was it restricted to General Strugar?
3 A. At this point, I cannot recall that Admiral Jokic said anything
4 about that.
5 Q. I will move on, then. Can you indicate whether you had any
6 observations about the relationship between Admiral Jokic and
7 General Strugar that you might have gotten from that meeting, in terms of
8 who commanded whom?
9 A. Well, as I have said already, it appeared that General Strugar was
10 leading the meeting, so it appeared that he was the first in command and
11 that Jokic was subordinated to him.
12 Q. How long have you been in the military -- had you been in the
13 military at that point in time? How many years? How many years had you
14 been a soldier at the time of that meeting?
15 A. Well, I did active military service from 1973 to 1975, as a
16 conscript, and as a conscript, I also received the education as a reserve
17 officer. And after that, I was a reserve officer.
18 Q. Are you still a reserve officer today?
19 A. Yes, I have still a contract with the Danish army as a reserve
21 Q. And in the course of your military exposure or training, are you
22 able to get a sense of when subordination is evident? Can you tell, as a
23 soldier, when someone is subordinate to someone else? Is it apparent by a
24 number of factors?
25 A. Often it will be apparent in some ways, yes.
1 Q. Going back to that meeting, do you recall a discussion about an
2 upcoming, actually, the next day, meeting of some ambassadors that was to
3 take place, and if so, if you could tell us where that might be found in
4 your particular diary.
5 A. Yes. I have some notes about that too. On page 02187226, almost
6 at the top, after the first two lines.
7 Q. What is said, please?
8 A. I must say that I don't remember that from the meeting. I know it
9 only from my notes.
10 Q. Okay. What do your notes tell you?
11 A. They tell that on the 29th of October, there should be a meeting
12 with some ambassadors and military attaches. They should land at Tivat
13 airport at 8.45 and arrive at Dubrovnik at 12.00. And until 1.00, there
14 should be sight-seeing, and then lunch at Tivat. According to my notes
15 here, they should be brought to Dubrovnik by a warship, or yacht.
16 Q. Did you participate in that?
17 A. No, I did not learn anything more about that visit.
18 Q. Now, when it was discussed at that meeting in Meljine, was
19 General Strugar present with this discussion about this ambassadorial
21 A. Yes, he was present, and during the entire meeting.
22 Q. Okay. Let us move on. I'd like to move to a time in December of
23 1991. Now, you were still in Dubrovnik. Up until what point did your
24 second tour of duty keep you in Dubrovnik? When did you leave Dubrovnik
25 from your second tour of duty?
1 A. So you mean after the meeting on the 28th?
2 Q. How long did you stay in Dubrovnik the second time? When did you
3 end your time in Dubrovnik, generally? We finished with the meeting on
4 the 28th for now. In general, how long did you find yourself staying in
5 Dubrovnik with the mission?
6 A. I'm sorry. I'm a little confused, because the second time I went
7 to Dubrovnik, it was after the meeting with General Strugar. It was only
8 for a short time, you know.
9 Q. Only for a short time in Meljine; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, and then we went to Dubrovnik for a short time.
11 Q. And how long? How long were you there in Dubrovnik that next
12 time? Why don't you tell us this, so it's not confusing: After the
13 meeting in Meljine, where did you go?
14 A. We went to Dubrovnik and stayed there, according to my notes,
15 until the 29th of October.
16 Q. And then what? What did you do on the 29th of October?
17 A. Then we went back to Split.
18 Q. And did you return from Split to Dubrovnik at some point?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. When was that, please?
21 A. It was on the 4th of December, 1991.
22 Q. And how long was that time? How long did that period, that tour
23 of duty in Dubrovnik last? Until when?
24 A. Our team left Dubrovnik again on the 8th of December.
25 Q. And -- okay. We'll take it to that point now. Now, what was the
1 purpose of your returning to Dubrovnik on the 4th from Split?
2 A. The purpose was that our team should escort a delegation of
3 Croatian ministers for some negotiations with JNA authorities.
4 Q. Now, Croatian ministers. Are these people local from the
5 Dubrovnik political area or are they from another place?
6 A. No. They were members of the Croatian government.
7 Q. And where were they based out of?
8 A. So they must have been based in Zagreb.
9 Q. Did you go to Zagreb to meet them, or where did you meet them?
10 A. We met them in Split, and escorted them from Split.
11 Q. Can you tell us, please, the names of these ministers, if you have
12 it also in your notes, if you could help us with that.
13 A. Yes, I have that, on page 02187231. The leader of the delegation
14 of ministers was Davorin Rudolf, and the other members were the minister
15 of commerce, Kriste and the minister of environment, as far as I remember,
17 Q. Do you know of what ministry Mr. Rudolf was minister?
18 A. Yes. It was sea communications, sea connections.
19 Q. Maritime?
20 A. Maritime matters, yes.
21 Q. What, if anything, may have occurred to you about -- let's stop
22 for a second. What were they going to do? What was the purpose of these
23 ministers coming to the Dubrovnik area? Do you know?
24 A. Yes. We were told that they were going to have some negotiations
25 with the JNA.
1 Q. Now, what, if anything, about the fact that they were
2 cabinet-level persons may have struck you? What went through your mind?
3 A. Well, of course that indicates that it's some very important
4 negotiations and important matters to be discussed.
5 Q. Do you know -- were you ever given any indication of what types of
6 matters were to be discussed at the meeting?
7 A. As far as I remember, we were told that, among other things, they
8 had to discuss how to solve the situation around Dubrovnik, about lack of
9 electricity, lack of water, and how to lift the blockade.
10 Q. Where was this meeting held?
11 A. It was held at the little town of Cavtat.
12 Q. Is Cavtat on the water? Is it on the water? Is it on the coast?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. How did you all get there?
15 A. By our boat.
16 Q. Were you -- again, were you part of the group that went in to
17 discuss matters? Were you included in the group, at that time?
18 A. No. We were told that we were not going to be present at the
20 Q. And do you recall the date of the meeting that it was scheduled
21 for? When was the meeting?
22 A. Yes. We arrived at Dubrovnik on the 4th of December, and the
23 meeting was on the 5th of December.
24 Q. In Cavtat?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. So you yourself do not know what was actually discussed inside
2 that meeting?
3 A. No, I don't know.
4 Q. Do you know whether or not, from the indications of the ministers,
5 whether or not the meeting resulted in an agreement, or was there to be
6 some additional meeting?
7 A. It appeared that no agreement was made. As far as I remember,
8 there should be another meeting.
9 Q. Who, if you know, was representing the JNA at the meeting?
10 A. I remember after the meeting that Admiral Jokic appeared.
11 Q. Did you see General Strugar at that meeting?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Did you see any of General Strugar's -- any of the people who were
14 present at the first meeting that you mentioned on the 28th? Were any of
15 those persons at the meeting?
16 A. I don't remember that.
17 Q. What was your understanding of what was to happen as a result of
18 that meeting? Was there any discussion about when there would be a
19 continuation of discussions?
20 A. I'm not sure about that, but, well, I had the impression that
21 there would be another meeting soon.
22 Q. Did you know -- were you aware of the day that there would be a
23 rescheduled meeting?
24 A. No, I don't remember that.
25 Q. Looking -- now, where were you on the 6th of December?
1 A. We were in our hotel, Argentina.
2 Q. And can you describe, please, the events of the 6th of December.
3 Was there in fact any noticeable improvement in the situation in Dubrovnik
5 A. No. On the opposite. I wake up -- according to my notes --
6 Q. Would you tell us the page, please, so that we can try to --
7 A. Sorry. Yes. That is page 02187231. I have noted, and I remember
8 very well also, that early in the morning, about 6.00, heavy shelling
9 began on Dubrovnik.
10 Q. That was the time you first heard heavy shelling, or shelling?
11 A. Yes. Yes, it was.
12 Q. And what was your reaction? What did you do?
13 A. Well, I was shocked, of course, as everybody else in the team. It
14 was unclear to me. There had been some negotiations, and then suddenly
15 shelling began. And I took a look out on the sea to establish -- try to
16 establish where the shelling came from. I couldn't see anything. And so
17 I went down to our operation room.
18 Q. Where was the operations room?
19 A. It was in the lowest etage [sic] of the building.
20 Q. Where I building was that?
21 A. It was the building of Hotel Argentina.
22 Q. And what was going on there?
23 A. At our operational -- operation room, the leader of our team,
24 Mr. Hvalkof, was already sending messages to Split about what was going
1 Q. Mr. Hvalkof. Now, what country is he from?
2 A. He's a Dane.
3 Q. And did you work together during a good portion of the time in
5 A. Yes. During these days, from the 5th until the 8th of December,
6 we were there together as members of the same team.
7 Q. What was ECMM attempting to do from that room?
8 A. We were sending our reports to our regional centre in Split about
9 what was going on.
10 Q. Was there any observation on your part as to whether the Croatians
11 were surprised about this attack? Did you speak to any of the Croatians
12 that you had been dealing with, let's say, the day before?
13 A. I don't remember that.
14 Q. Mr. Hvalkof and yourself, did you record --
15 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Now I remember that Mr. Rudolf was also
16 present at our operation rooms, and as far as I remember, he was shocked
18 Q. And what was Mr. -- If you remember, what was his reaction? If
19 you remember.
20 A. He tried to contact the -- as far as I remember, he tried to
21 contact the other side in order to get information about what was going
23 Q. Did you document, through your diary, to the best of your ability,
24 what occurred in the way of the reaction of the people in Dubrovnik and
25 what was happening with the shellings? Did you record that?
1 A. Yes. I have some notes about that, how the shelling continued.
2 Q. Which page could you direct us to?
3 A. It is still the page 02187231.
4 Q. And can you take us through that? I think you're best able to
5 give us the times and what it was you observed?
6 A. Yes. So about 6.00 in the morning, the heavy shelling began, and
7 then at 7.15, according to my notes, there was a general alert.
8 Q. What is a general alert, please?
9 A. Well, a high sound of a siren.
10 Q. A siren?
11 A. A siren.
12 Q. And?
13 A. And at 7.20, at least two impacts in the Old Town, at 0732 until
14 now 1011, impacts in the old town. At 0845 hours, impacts fell close to
15 the hotel.
16 Q. Hotel Argentina?
17 A. Yes. Our hotel window was broken. The hotel hit by at least one
18 shell, a lot of broken glass on the corridor outside my room. At 0920,
19 our boat to Cavtat, Argosy II with the EC flag on it, directly hit in the
20 old harbour.
21 Q. And the old harbour is where in relationship to the Old Town?
22 A. It's immediately at the Old Town.
23 Q. Was there damage done to your boat, the Argosy II?
24 A. Yes. Both that boat, Argosy II, and also Argosy I, burned totally
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And then between 0930 and 0945, intensified shelling upon the Old
3 Town. At 0945 until 1000, about 10 to 15 heavy explosions per minute.
4 Q. Where?
5 A. Still in the Old Town.
6 Q. And anything about the harbour?
7 A. Upon the Old Town, the old harbour also, and the island of Lokrum.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And then at 1045, still shelling.
10 Q. Now, during this period where you are describing the shelling
11 coming into the Old Town, can you indicate whether you at any time
12 observed any outgoing fire from the Old Town?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 Q. At any time during your stay in Dubrovnik, the first time, the
15 second time, the third time, did you observe any outgoing fire from the
16 Old Town?
17 A. I don't remember anything about that.
18 Q. In other words, you don't remember seeing it, or you did not
20 A. Well, in fact I didn't see it. I didn't observe it.
21 Q. Going back to your page where you have an entry for 1500, if you
22 could assist us, please.
23 A. Yes. I have noted at 1500 hours, shelling still going on, though
24 Admiral Jokic sent excuse.
25 Q. And to whom was the communication from Admiral Jokic sent?
1 A. I don't remember that.
2 Q. Did you receive any other communications from the JNA during that
3 time? Let me just go back for one second. An excuse about what? What
4 was the excuse, if you remember generally?
5 A. I don't remember, but the only logical thing would be that it was
6 an excuse because of the attack, because of the shelling.
7 Q. Do you recall if any other communications came from the JNA side
8 that afternoon?
9 A. Yes. I have noted at the 0710 hours that a letter was received
10 from General Strugar, where he was writing that the Croatian forces had
11 not respected the ceasefire. And so the damage upon the Old Town was in
12 fact because of their own fire.
13 MS. SOMERS: Can I just ask, please, at this moment to ask the
14 usher to assist us with distributing the next exhibit I would seek to
16 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received as an exhibit.
17 MS. SOMERS: Yes. Thank you.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P23.
19 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.
20 Q. Looking at what has just been labelled Exhibit P23, what is that
21 document in front of you, please? Do you recognise it?
22 A. Well, I --
23 Q. You know the contents? Do you recognise the contents?
24 A. It seems to be the same document which I am mentioning in my
25 papers, in my notebook, but I'm not able to recognise it as such.
1 Q. But you -- the content of it. Let's look at the content of it.
2 Does it match what you have just told us was said by General Strugar?
3 A. Yes, it matches that.
4 Q. Would you be kind enough just to read it, the time, the date, if
5 you can, please, if it's clear enough on the document?
6 A. The English text is as follows, from JNA Boka to Davorin Rudolf,
7 minister: "The JNA forces were attacked, with no apparent reason, by the
8 mortars and machine-gun fire this morning from Srdj and from Babin Kuk.
9 Our forces answered to the fire. At 1115, our units ceased the fire under
10 my commandment, but your forces" - excuse me - "did not observe the
11 ceasefire. That is why it can be concluded that the buildings in the Old
12 Town were damaged by your forces, General Colonel Pavle Strugar."
13 Q. Now, I note the time on this may differ a bit. I think you
14 said --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MS. SOMERS: I'm terribly sorry. I'm terribly sorry.
17 Q. The time on this reads 1714. You have an approximately 1710. Is
18 this still the same communication, to the best of your knowledge?
19 A. Yes, it is, to the best of my knowledge.
20 Q. Now, can you tell us, please: In your minutes, in your notes from
21 your diary, where do you address this particular document? So that I can
22 just make sure I'm on the same ...
23 A. It's on page 02187231, at the bottom.
24 Q. Now, I note at the bottom, it actually appears to be in English,
25 and you have some punctuation, as it were, some notations at the end of
1 it. What is the purpose of those what appear to be exclamation points?
2 Why did you put them there?
3 A. Well, I put them there because it seemed to me that the content of
4 the letter was pure nonsense.
5 Q. And are you able to give any indication why you so viewed it?
6 A. Well, it's completely unlikely that the Croats themselves would
7 inflict such damages on Dubrovnik themselves. That is evident for
9 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, would this be a convenient time to take
10 a break?
11 JUDGE PARKER: It would be, indeed, and we will break, therefore,
12 for 20 minutes.
13 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.
16 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Brolund, returning to the points you were making about the
18 shellings on the 6th of December. I note that your statement, and I
19 believe your diary, makes reference to something called a wire-guided
20 missile. Can you please discuss what you meant by that and what your
21 observations were of such wire-guided missiles during these attacks?
22 A. Yes. I have, also concerning that, to make a little correction to
23 what is quoted in my statement. It's correct that I noticed such
24 wire-directed missiles, how they went past -- they went -- they passed by
25 in the air, our hotel, towards the sea. And I remember that one of these
1 wires fell down on a tree outside the hotel, down towards the sea. But I
2 must say at this moment, at least, that I can't recollect that I saw these
3 missiles impact in the Old Town.
4 Q. At the time of this statement, when you met with representatives
5 of the Office of the Prosecutor, however, is it correct that you did
6 indicate from your own recollection at that time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that that is what is in your statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That your statement says: "During the day, I observed the
11 wire-guided missiles flying past us and landing in Dubrovnik, including
12 the Old City." Was that your communication personally to the
13 investigators at the time?
14 A. Yes, it was. But, well, it's two years ago, and I must say today
15 that I can't recall in my memory that I saw the missiles impact on the Old
17 Q. Thank you very much. I note in your diary, and also communicated
18 in your statement, the mention of Trebinje. You indicated that you
19 believe the majority of the artillery fire came from the land and possibly
20 from the direction of Trebinje. Where is Trebinje, if you can just tell
22 A. Yes. It's a town located about 20 kilometres from Dubrovnik,
23 above Dubrovnik. In fact, on the other side of the border, that is, in
24 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. Thank you very much. From the time frame in your document, it
1 appears that until relatively late in the day there was some shelling. Do
2 you have an observation about what the reaction of the people of Dubrovnik
3 was? Were they on the street? Were they in -- had they sought shelter?
4 What was your -- if you know.
5 A. No. I don't know, in fact, anything about the reaction of the
6 population of Dubrovnik concerning the 6th of December, because we were
7 not leaving the hotel at all that day.
8 Q. Could you leave the hotel? Was it safe for you to do so?
9 A. It seemed to us that it wasn't.
10 Q. Turning to the next day, that's 7th of December. What events
11 occurred on the 7th of December?
12 A. According to my notes, on page 02187232, at 0915 hours, we went
13 into the town.
14 Q. Which town would that be?
15 A. The Old Town of Dubrovnik.
16 Q. And when you say "we," who was with you?
17 A. So it was our team, Mr. Hvalkof and Mr. Hans Van de Beek, and
19 Q. And what were your observations upon going into the Old Town?
20 A. Well, we could observe the big damages which had been inflicted,
21 that there was broken glass, and broken roofing tiles everywhere.
22 Q. Did you observe any serious damage? What was -- can you give us a
23 description of what you saw, if you're able to do that?
24 A. Yes. I brought a film to my camera and we went up in the church
25 tower, at the Franciscan church, at the monastery, Mala Braca, which was
1 also damaged by several shells.
2 Q. What did you observe?
3 A. From the top of -- from the church tower, we could observe a lot
4 of damage to roofs, and all over the town, and it seemed that almost every
5 roof was damaged, and also of the old well near to monastery was damaged.
6 Q. Were you able to make any observations as to whether or not the
7 damage was restricted to one area, or was it broader?
8 A. It seems that it was not only restricted to one area; it was much
10 Q. Did you observe any, at that point, any, let's say, evidence -- a
11 continuing evidence of either fire or smoke?
12 A. I don't remember any fire, but there was still a lot of smoke.
13 Q. Do you know whether or not there were civilians who had been in
14 the Old Town at that time?
15 A. We learned that there were about 20 civilian casualties, as far as
16 I remember.
17 Q. That may have been throughout Dubrovnik, correct, throughout all
18 of Dubrovnik, not necessarily just --
19 A. Yes, I think so.
20 Q. Excuse me. I'm so sorry. What was -- what else, if you can tell
21 us, please, occurred on the 7th?
22 A. Well --
23 Q. I'm sorry. Before you answer that, let me just ask you this:
24 Before you went into the Old Town on the 7th, had you been in the Old Town
25 during that stay, during that trip, when you came the 4th, had you been in
1 the Old Town before that, before the 7th, let's say between the 4th and
2 the 7th?
3 A. Yes. I can -- I don't remember that today, but I can establish
4 that in my notes on the page 02187231, at the 4th of December, at 1300
5 hours, arrival at Dubrovnik, in the afternoon, tour through the town.
6 Q. The town meaning the Old Town?
7 A. Yes, I -- yes.
8 Q. And did you, on the 7th, notice a difference in the condition of
9 the Old Town than what you had seen on the 4th?
10 A. Oh, yes. Everything was completely different.
11 Q. How so?
12 A. On the 4th, there were, as far as I remember, very little damage,
13 or little damage, compared with the situation on the 7th.
14 Q. Now, going back to what you were going to do officially as part of
15 your duties again on the 7th, could you tell us, please, what was to
17 A. Yes. The delegation of the ministers did want to arrange a new
18 meeting at Cavtat, and it was scheduled that the meeting should be at
19 12.00. Now, I am again on page 02187232, in the middle.
20 Q. Do you know the purpose of the meeting? Who was going to attend
21 that meeting?
22 A. Well, again, the delegation of the ministers, and then some of the
23 commanders from the JNA.
24 Q. And these ministers would be the same persons you're talking
25 about, that Mr. Rudolf, Mr. Sifric, and Mr. Kriste; is that true?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Now, did they in fact have a meeting at Cavtat?
3 A. Yes, they had.
4 Q. And what was the role of ECMM at this meeting?
5 A. At this meeting we were present because the meeting took place on
6 board our ship, the UNICEF hydrofoil boat, Krila Dubrovnika.
7 Q. You say it took place on board. Did you all come together? Did
8 you and the ministers arrive together from Dubrovnik?
9 A. Yes. We went away from Dubrovnik on board this boat together.
10 Q. What was the arrangement? How were you to get there? By
11 what -- where were you to land?
12 A. Well, it was planned that the meeting should take place in a small
13 town called Srebreno, probably. The way I have written it in in my notes
14 is wrong, probably. I have spelled it like Srebrene.
15 Q. Is that a water location, a waterfront area?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Did you get to Srebreno?
18 A. No. The boat couldn't go into the small harbour at Srebreno.
19 Q. So what did you do?
20 A. And because of that we went to Cavtat.
21 Q. Did you try get into the harbour at Srebreno? Did you attempt?
22 Was there an attempt to get into the harbour?
23 A. Yes, I think so. I have written here, we could establish -- it
24 appeared that the boat could not go into the harbour of Srebreno where
25 Admiral Jokic and Frigate Captain Jeremic were already waiting on us.
1 Q. Were Admiral Jokic and Mr. Jeremic waiting for you at the harbour,
2 at the docking area at Srebreno?
3 A. Yes. So it is written in my notes.
4 Q. So what -- I'm so sorry.
5 A. And they said we could sail to Cavtat.
6 Q. Did you do that?
7 A. Yes we did.
8 Q. And when you got to Cavtat, what took place, and where?
9 A. Then the meeting took place on board the boat.
10 Q. The boat, the Krila Dubrovnika?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And who presented the JNA at that meeting?
13 A. From the JNA at this meeting were present Admiral Jokic and
14 Frigate Captain Jeremic.
15 Q. Was there any particular concern, if you remember, for security of
16 the group that you were accompanying? Was there any security issue?
17 A. I remember -- or no. I can't say that I remember that. I know
18 also that only because of my notes, that the Croats had some concerns
19 about their security. It's on page 02187232, in the middle.
20 Q. Was Cavtat occupied by the JNA at that point?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. What in fact was discussed at that meeting, please? What were the
23 points to discuss?
24 A. I have noted here that, and I remember also, that there was made
25 an agreement, and I have noted here that there was made an agreement about
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 absolute ceasefire; gradual reduction of forces on both sides, should be
2 arranged, should be negotiated; and deblocking of the harbour and the
3 islands; and re-establishing other ferry traffic; and it should also be
4 sought to establish again free road traffic; and as a fifth point,
5 reparation of electric and water installations should be made possible,
6 et cetera.
7 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that both the Croatians and you were
8 surprised, I believe you used the term "shocked," about the events of the
9 6th. Did ECMM, either through you or any other monitor, make any protest
10 or comment to the JNA about the events of the 6th of December?
11 A. Yes. I remember that Hvalkof, on behalf of our team, made a
12 strong protest to Admiral Jokic, which I interpreted.
13 Q. And did you get any sense of the admiral's reaction or from his
14 response any sense of how he may have viewed the events of the 6th? If
15 you can -- and if you did, can you explain your observation.
16 A. I remember that very well, and it seemed to me that he was not
17 comfortable with the situation at all, as if he was sorry about what has
18 happened, what had happened.
19 Q. Do you know whether or not a ceasefire in fact came into effect?
20 A. No, I'm not sure.
21 Q. Let us now turn our attention to the 8th of December. What
22 happened on the 8th of December?
23 A. In the morning, somewhere in the morning, we escorted some
24 photographers, according to my notes. It's also page 02187233.
25 Q. What kind of photographers?
1 A. Some photographers and intelligence agents, in inverted commas,
2 from the JNA.
3 Q. How did these photographers and intelligence agents get escorted
4 by you, and where were they?
5 A. Well, they had -- an arrangement had been made with the Croats so
6 that they could come in and inspect the damage, and inspect the damages in
8 Q. So what you're telling us, if I understand it correctly, is that
9 JNA officers came into Dubrovnik. Now, did they come in uniform?
10 A. No. They were in civilian clothes.
11 Q. And were they offered sufficient security during that visit?
12 A. It seems to me they were escorted by Croats and also by us.
13 Q. Tell us, please, about what they did, about the tour, as it were,
14 of the old city, of the Old Town.
15 A. Well, this walk through the town, as far as I remember, did last
16 quite some time, and it seems to me that they inspected almost all the
17 Old Town. We were on the city walls also.
18 Q. Did they -- did you walk, as much as you can remember, around the
19 entire area of the Old Town?
20 A. I beg your pardon.
21 Q. Did you walk around the entire area of the Old Town?
22 A. I can't tell you we went over the entire area, but a great part.
23 Q. Did they speak, did persons from the JNA speak during the course
24 of this tour?
25 A. No, they did not speak much, as far as I remember.
1 Q. Was it an obvious group, with much publicity, or was it more,
2 shall we say, guarded?
3 A. Well, it was more guarded.
4 Q. What -- do you know what, if anything, happened after these
5 persons visited the Old Town? Was there any result that you were made
6 aware of by the JNA, any action?
7 A. No. In fact, I was not made aware of such things.
8 Q. I would ask you for a moment, please, to take a look at a series
9 of four photographs that I would ask to be considered a composite exhibit.
10 Mr. Brolund, do you recognise these photographs?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Why do you recognise them?
13 A. Because it's my photograph.
14 Q. You took them. I understood you took these photographs?
15 A. Yes, I took these photographs.
16 Q. Now, they seem to cover -- they have different shots of things,
17 and they may -- are they all from one day or do they vary? Do they have a
18 number of days covered?
19 A. They cover several days. Probably -- you see the first of them on
20 page 02187235 is due to the text which I have written myself and taken
21 from the backside of my photo. According to that, the photo is from the
22 5th of December, when we went to Cavtat.
23 Q. And does this show anything? I realise that it's a bit difficult
24 because the quality is a little faded. Is that simply Cavtat?
25 A. Yes, with two JRM patrol boats.
1 Q. And on the second photograph, what is depicted on the second
3 A. Well, it seems to be some kind of homemade Croatian armoured
4 vehicle, and my colleague, Leif Maersk, is also on the picture.
5 Q. When you say homemade, that is your description?
6 A. Yes, in inverted commas, yes.
7 Q. On the other page, please, can you indicate what the people
8 are -- who they are and where these photos were taken? That would be on
9 02187 --
10 A. Yes. On the next page, yes, on page 02187236, the upper picture
11 is from the visit of the JNA representatives inspecting the damages and
12 taking photographs on the 8th of December.
13 Q. And who -- okay. These are the JNA persons in plain clothes. Are
14 you able to indicate which of these persons is JNA? Do you know?
15 A. Only the tall man to the left, in the white coat. He's a JNA
17 Q. The picture below, can you tell us, please, what that represents.
18 A. Yes. It's a picture taken in Cavtat on the 7th --
19 Q. And who --
20 A. -- of December, on board our boat, Krila Dubrovnika, during the
22 Q. Are you able to identify some of the persons in this picture? If
23 you can, I'll ask you to do so.
24 A. Yes. So from the left side, at first, two of the Croatian
25 ministers. It seems to be in front Sifric, and behind him, Kriste, and
1 then in the background, standing, Mr. Hvalkof, from our team; and on his
2 left side, Mr. Rudolf, sitting; and then to the right, the two
3 representatives of the JNA, that is, the JRM. I'm not quite sure who is
4 who, who is Jeremic and who is Jokic.
5 Q. From this picture, yeah. Okay.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 MS. SOMERS: I'll ask, please, for this to be marked. If I could
9 ask for a number.
10 JUDGE PARKER: This will be received as the one composite exhibit.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P24.
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much. Let me just take one minute,
13 Your Honour. If I may take one minute, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 Q. When did you leave Dubrovnik altogether on this mission?
15 A. I left Dubrovnik on the 8th of December, at 10.00, before noon.
16 Q. And when did you -- where did you go from there, please? From
17 Dubrovnik, where did you go on the mission?
18 A. I went back to Split.
19 Q. How long did you stay in Croatia all together during this time
21 A. I stayed in Croatia until the 25th of December.
22 Q. And then what did you do after the 25th of December?
23 A. I went home to Denmark.
24 Q. Did you finish your time as a European Community monitor?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Between the 6th of December and the time you left Croatia
2 altogether, did you ever become aware, or was it ever brought to your
3 attention, any attempt by the JNA into an investigation or discipline as
4 to the events in the Old Town? Are you aware of it?
5 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. SOMERS: At this time, Your Honour, I have no further
8 questions at this time. Thank you very much. I just wanted to remind the
9 Chamber of the issue with Mr. Brolund's having to depart tomorrow. Thank
10 you very much.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Somers.
12 Mr. Rodic.
13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We have a minor technical problem,
14 Your Honours. Having in mind this remark made by my learned friend and
15 colleague Somers, I wish to inform both her and the Chamber that the
16 Defence will fully comply with this time limit in relation to Mr. Brolund.
17 Our cross-examination is certain to finish by the end of this deadline.
18 May we just have a moment, please.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lars, my name is Goran Rodic. I am
21 Mr. Strugar's Defence counsel. I will ask you questions on behalf of
22 Mr. Strugar. Good afternoon, sir.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. First of all I would like to ask you the following: Before
25 Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia, had you ever been on any other kind of
1 military mission or other kind of mission?
2 A. No, I had not.
3 Q. You said that you had served in the Danish army and that you are a
4 reserve officer. Could you please tell me: What sort of training did you
5 go through during your military service with the Danish army, or
7 A. Yes, I can. I can tell you that I have got a special education
8 for reserve officers at the special school of the Danish army, where I got
9 an education in Russian. This education took place at a school which name
10 at that time, when I became pupil in it, was called Teknikerliniens
12 Q. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. As part of your special
13 training, you were taught Russian. I didn't quite understand what you
14 being taught Russian has to do with your military training, the link
15 between the two.
16 A. Well, it's a special education for reserve officers in Russian and
17 different military topics for military interpreters, and satisfies the
18 needs of the Danish army to have the people speaking that language.
19 Q. Which means that the specialty of the school where you were
20 trained and the special training in the Danish army is teaching Russian;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Did you obtain any other forms of experience through your
24 training, technical, infantry, artillery, anything like that?
25 A. Yes, sir. Yes, certainly we did.
1 Q. Did you have any particular specialty within that framework?
2 A. Yes. At the school we also had topics such as interrogation of
3 prisoners of war.
4 Q. Would I be correct in describing that school as some sort of
5 intelligence school, in defining intelligence being one of the specialties
6 you obtained once you had been through the training?
7 A. You can say so, yes.
8 Q. Having gone through the training of an intelligence
9 officer - correct me if I'm wrong - you should be familiar with
10 specialties that I have referred to, such as artillery, infantry, the
11 different kinds of weapons used, and so on and so forth; am I correct?
12 A. Yes, to some extent.
13 Q. What was the first time you visited the former Yugoslavia?
14 A. It was in July 1977.
15 Q. Can you tell me more about where exactly you were?
16 A. Yes. I was in Modrica, near Sibenik, as a tourist.
17 Q. Sibenik, Vodice, Pirovac, Zadar, that area, roughly speaking?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. You visited all these places, didn't you?
20 A. I didn't recognise all the names you mentioned; only some of them.
21 Q. What was the purpose of your first visit?
22 A. I was there as a tourist.
23 Q. You said that in 1979 and 1981 you had also visited Dubrovnik.
24 Was that also a mere tourist visit?
25 A. Your Honours, may I ask the counsel of the Defence to repeat the
2 Q. In 1979 and 1981, were you in Dubrovnik?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. Was that also for tourism?
5 A. At that time, I was there on language courses, in 1979 and 1981.
6 Q. After 1981, including 1991, how many other times did you visit the
7 former Yugoslavia?
8 A. Well, I visited the former Yugoslavia several times during that
9 period of time. In 1983 I was on a language course in Ljubljana, and 1984
10 also at the same language course, at the University of Ljubljana. In
11 1985, I was again there on a language course, which took place at Belgrade
12 and Novi Sad and other towns. And then it must have been 1986 I was again
13 in Dubrovnik as a tourist, on a charter trip. And then I was in
14 Yugoslavia again in 1989, again on a language course, which took place in
15 Belgrade and Zadar. And also in 1990, again at the University of
16 Ljubljana, on a language course. And I was, as I have already told at the
17 beginning, supposed also to attend the language course at the University
18 of Ljubljana in 1991.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please tell us: Your university in
20 Denmark, is that a university where you obtained your degree in Russian
21 and Serbo-Croat at that time?
22 A. I beg your pardon? I didn't understand your question.
23 Q. In Denmark, in your own country, your university was the
24 university where you obtained a degree in Russian and Serbo-Croat; am I
1 A. Yes, sir. That was the university of Aarhus in Denmark, yes.
2 Q. This university, I assume you finished university upon the
3 completion of your military service in Denmark.
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. The purpose of all the trips you made to the former Yugoslavia,
6 was it purely touristic or did it also have to do with education and
7 improvement, learning, and for the sake of your spoken Serbo-Croat?
8 A. Well, as you have heard, I have mostly been on language courses
9 and not so often on tourist trips, and so what I would like to do was to
10 gain some better knowledge of the Serb -- of the B/C/S language and to
11 learn something more about that beautiful country.
12 Q. I assume that you were informed, in view of your knowledge of the
13 language and your many visits, about the political and social structure of
14 the country and how it functioned.
15 A. Well, on the language courses, we were not, as far as I remember,
16 told much about that. But I don't remember much about that. It seems to
17 me that there was not much about the society and the structure of the
18 society, but probably there was something.
19 Q. I assume that you were interested in Yugoslavia as a country. I
20 assume that you had some spare time to spend with people when you talked
21 to those people, you probably talked to them also about the country in
22 which you were staying, didn't you?
23 A. Oh, yes. I was talking with many people about many different
24 things, of course.
25 Q. I assume that, in relation to an average Dane, your information
1 about the former Yugoslavia was much higher, wasn't it?
2 A. Well, I was much more interested in that country than most people
3 in Denmark, so of course, yes, yes, probably.
4 Q. Was the Serbo-Croat language a language used during your missions
5 to Split, Zagreb, Dubrovnik?
6 A. Yes, I did often. I was used as an interpreter, for example.
7 Q. This probably means that when you talked to members of the JNA or
8 the Croatian authorities in this period of time, on the discussion you
9 probably used Serbo-Croat, didn't you?
10 A. Your Honours, may I ask the counsellor of the Defence to repeat
11 the question.
12 Q. This means you used Serbo-Croat in your talks with the
13 representatives of the JNA and the representatives of the Croatian side
14 during your stay in Zagreb, Dubrovnik, Split?
15 A. Yes, I did. I have already told that I was working
16 as -- functioning as an interpreter at several occasions.
17 Q. In addition to your work as interpreter for the mission in the
18 former Yugoslavia, did you have any other position or tasks as part of
19 your work with the mission?
20 A. Well, in fact, my function was to be a monitor, and so
21 accidentally, because of my knowledge, because I had some knowledge of
22 B/C/S, I did function as an interpreter sometimes.
23 Q. Prior to your arrival in Yugoslavia, or following your arrival,
24 did you attend any briefing where you were informed about the situation in
25 Yugoslavia and about what your own task would be?
1 A. Yes, sir. We were briefed by the minister of foreign affairs.
2 Q. I assume the minister of foreign affairs of Denmark.
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. Can you please briefly tell us what you were told there about the
5 situation in Yugoslavia.
6 A. I don't remember any details.
7 Q. Did you not take any notes to be able to jog your memory as to
8 what your task would be on the mission and how you would be representing
9 your country and what your country's interests were in the situation?
10 A. No, I did not take such notes.
11 Q. Can you please tell me what specifically you were doing in Zagreb
12 and how long you stayed.
13 A. Well, I stayed in Zagreb from the middle of July 1991 and until,
14 well -- so, in fact, until the 20th of October, when I went back -- when I
15 went down to Split, to the regional centre at Split. After the 20th of
16 October, I did not come back to Zagreb any more. But, of course, during
17 the period, that period in Zagreb, I went at some occasions to other
18 towns. I have already told here at the beginning how I went to Dubrovnik
19 from the 5th to the 10th of October. And, for example, well, we had
20 taskings all over Slovenia and Croatia, and I also went, for example, to
21 Osijek, in Eastern Slavonia, somewhere about the middle of September. And
22 I also went, for example, at the beginning of October, to Petrinja, in
24 Q. What were your specific tasks on those occasions as a monitor?
25 A. Well, our main task was to monitor the situation, for example, to
1 monitor the withdrawal of the JNA from Slovenia, and to report about that
2 to our headquarters in Zagreb. After each tasking, the team would make
3 its report. So the leaders of the mission reported back to -- at that
4 time to The Hague here, because the Netherlands was -- had the presidency
5 in the European Community at that time.
6 Q. Fair enough. Thank you very much. Tell us, please, specifically:
7 When monitoring the withdrawal of the JNA from Slovenia, did you encounter
8 any problems? Was there anything special you noticed or anything special
9 that you were informed about as part of your mission?
10 A. I don't remember that.
11 Q. Also in relation to the JNA, did you monitor elsewhere in Croatia
12 or in Zagreb?
13 A. Pardon? I didn't understand the question.
14 Q. In Slovenia, you monitored the withdrawal of the JNA. My question
15 is: In Zagreb, and elsewhere in Croatia, all the places that you have
16 referred to, were you on any monitoring missions to do with the JNA? If
17 so, please specify.
18 A. Well, at many occasions we had -- I was on taskings where we had
19 contact with the JNA. For example, when I went to Petrinja at the
20 beginning of October, and also when I went to Osijek in September, we had
21 at that time liaison officers --
22 Q. Let me ask you, in more specific terms, in view of your military
23 experience and education and your previous visits to Yugoslavia, did you
24 observe anything unusual, in your view, with regard to the JNA, as the
25 legal armed force of that country?
1 A. So if I did observe anything unusual. How do you mean? In which
3 Q. Well, I mean in the period while you were in Croatia, was the JNA
4 blocked in its barracks? Were they unable to leave their barracks, and
5 did you find this unusual?
6 A. Well, I am aware of the fact -- I remember that JNA was blocked in
7 some barracks, or, as far as I remember, in some periods. And, well,
8 because of the situation, it had come to such blockings. I don't know how
9 to comment it.
10 Q. What was the situation that led to the blocking of the regular
11 armed force of a country? Can you describe the situation a little?
12 A. Well, that's quite difficult. That's quite difficult. It's quite
13 difficult --
14 Q. I don't think it should be difficult, because you yourself
15 volunteered for this task, to participate in the monitoring mission as a
16 monitor, one of your main tasks was to monitor the ceasefire. You had
17 contacts with all sides, however many sides there were. So please tell me
18 what your opinion is, based on your knowledge of the situation on the
19 ground and what you were told at your briefing and what you were told your
20 task was.
21 A. Well, the situation was quite confusing, and often it was
22 difficult to establish what was going on. So could you specify a little
23 more what you would like me to describe?
24 Q. Why was the JNA blocked in its barracks? What do you know about
25 this? For example, in the city of Zagreb.
1 A. Well, in fact, I don't know much about that, so I'm not able to
2 answer that question.
3 Q. Can you then tell us what it was you monitored, what you observed
4 in Zagreb, in Osijek? Can you describe your task in greater detail? What
5 were you doing?
6 A. Well, we had a lot of different taskings.
7 Q. For example?
8 A. Well, in Eastern Slavonia, in Osijek, we were monitoring
9 also -- monitoring also ceasefires, and we were -- we did try to
10 contribute to the establishment of ceasefires and so on.
11 Q. What was the problem? Among what sides did the problem arise?
12 Can you tell us with greater precision?
13 A. Well, these problems did occur between Croatian units and JNA
14 units, so it seemed.
15 Q. How well informed are you, and are you well informed, in
16 connection with the job you were doing in that period? Are you in
17 possession of detailed information and reliable information from the areas
18 where you were working?
19 A. Well, we -- in connection with our taskings, we got, of course,
20 information about the situation in the areas to which we were going.
21 Q. Did you at some point draw up a report from Osijek about
22 violations of the ceasefire by one of the belligerents?
23 A. I don't remember that.
24 Q. Do you remember who you negotiated with there?
25 A. I beg your pardon? In Osijek? Yes, I remember when we were
1 down -- I was down there, we, at one occasion, we went out to the airport,
2 where we had some talks with Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic and Mr. Rade -- the
3 name I don't -- I don't remember his last name.
4 Q. What was their position?
5 A. As far as I remember, they were members of the government, of
6 Krajina. So they represented themselves, as far as I remember.
7 Q. Did you talk to any representatives of the army in Osijek? Do you
8 know who was the commander of the barracks in Osijek?
9 A. I remember that we had talks with some Croatian military persons,
10 but I don't remember the names.
11 Q. And with the JNA?
12 A. Well, we had -- I remember that we had two liaison officers from
13 the JNA side, but when we went out to the meeting at the airport, or at
14 other -- oh, yes, yes. We went out to a town outside Osijek, where we had
15 talks with a JNA colonel. So what was his name?
16 Q. Was it Boro Jovanovic?
17 A. Exactly. Exactly. Yes, yes, you're right. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. And who was Rade Sarac?
19 A. Rade Sarac. He was one of the liaison officers. I met him as a
20 liaison officer at several occasions. He was at the 5th Military District
21 in Zagreb and went out with us as a liaison officer at some occasions, as
22 far as I remember.
23 Q. Did he go to Split with you? And if he did, why?
24 A. Yes. Yes, he did. Well, he went with us as a liaison officer.
25 I'm not sure, but it might have been in connection with the first team of
1 the European mission that went to Split. We went there -- yes. Yes. It
2 was on the 24th of September. It's also in my -- in my witness report
3 which I made to the investigators from The Hague two years ago. Yes, it
4 was on the 24th of September we went down to Split. As far as I remember,
5 he went with us at that occasion.
6 Q. What was his task? Was he enabling you to pass through the
7 territory as far as Split, or did he have anything to do with the contacts
8 you were supposed to establish in Split?
9 A. Yes. As far as I remember, he helped us to establish contact with
10 the VPO at Split.
11 Q. Do you know who the commander of the military and naval district
12 was in Split at the time?
13 A. Yes. It was General Mladenic.
14 Q. While you were working in Zagreb, did you know Adrien Paul
15 Stringer from Great Britain, who was another member of your mission?
16 A. I have heard that name, but I can't say that I know him, and I'm
17 not sure that we have had service in the mission at the same time.
18 Q. You say that you went to Split on the 24th of September, 1991.
19 A. Yes, as far as I remember, yes.
20 Q. How many days before that did you spend in Zagreb?
21 A. Well, you know, at the middle of -- as I told you, at the middle
22 of September I went to Osijek, and as far as I remember, when I came home
23 from Osijek and until I went down to Split, I stayed in Zagreb, as far as
24 I remember.
25 Q. When you were in Split, were you establishing an ECMM office or
1 was it a change of shifts with the previous group?
2 A. Well, the team which went down on the 24th of September was -- the
3 first team which went down to Split, and we had the task to establish some
4 kind of presence of the monitoring mission at Split. And we had a press
5 conference, I remember, also.
6 Q. You said that from the 5th to the 10th of October, you were in
7 Dubrovnik for the first time as part of your mission; is this correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. I would like to know, only briefly, how you reached Dubrovnik.
10 Was this by a civilian vessel or was it a naval vessel?
11 A. Oh, it was a civilian vessel. I don't have anything about that in
12 my notes, it seems, but as far as I remember, we went by the ferry boat
14 Q. To Dubrovnik?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Tell me: On the 10th, how did you go back from Dubrovnik?
17 A. We also went back by Slavija, as far as I remember.
18 Q. Are you able to testify at all without consulting your notes?
19 A. It seems to me that I have already been doing so for a long time.
20 Q. Can you tell us anything, without looking at your notes, and yet
21 be certain of what you are saying, without consulting the papers in front
22 of you?
23 A. Again, it seems to me that I have been doing exactly that for
24 probably at least half an hour.
25 Q. Well, because the questions were not in connection with the notes
1 you have before you. But let me ask you: Do you have any notes connected
2 to your work in Osijek?
3 A. No, I haven't.
4 Q. You only kept notes in Dubrovnik?
5 A. Well, it's quite accidentally I have some notes. Sometimes I
6 didn't have time to make notes.
7 Q. Very well. How did you return on the 10th of October from
8 Dubrovnik? Without consulting your notes, if possible, please. On the
9 basis of your recollection.
10 A. Well, we went back to -- well, that's very simple. We went back
11 by ferry boat from Dubrovnik to Rijeka, as far as I remember. And from
12 there, probably some vehicle was waiting for us there or -- and so we went
13 to Zagreb.
14 Q. On the ferry boat, on your way back from Dubrovnik, did you
15 run -- did you meet anyone? Was there a handover with another group? And
16 if so, can you describe this.
17 A. Well, now it seems -- I think that I do remember that the name of
18 that ferry boat was Liburnija, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't remember
19 anything about a handover with another team. So what happened on the
20 trip, as far as I remember, there was an inspection by the JRM. Well, I
21 learned that afterward. I was asleep.
22 Q. Your team, which was in Dubrovnik from the 5th to the 10th, did it
23 have a name?
24 A. I think the name was Charlie, Team Charlie, but I'm not sure.
25 Q. Are you familiar with the Whiskey team and who its members were?
1 A. I remember that there was such a team, but I can't remember the
2 name of any member of it.
3 Q. Very well. Do you know, when you left Dubrovnik on the 10th,
4 which team entered Dubrovnik after yours, and did you come across that
6 A. We might have had a handover with them, but I don't remember that.
7 Q. With whom?
8 A. We might have had a handover with the new team coming after us,
9 but I don't remember that. If there was any team after us. I don't
10 remember that.
11 Q. Is it correct that during your first stay in Dubrovnik you
12 persistently tried to meet JNA representatives and that in the end you
13 were not successful in this?
14 A. Yes. As I have already told here today, our team tried to do
15 that, but we were not successful in that.
16 Q. Why were you not successful?
17 A. I remember that the leader of the team, Mr. Mangan, asked me to
18 make a phone call to the Boka Kotorska, but it was impossible, because all
19 lines were in disorder.
20 Q. So you did not perform your task fully. Did you instruct anyone
21 else to continue this task and to endeavour to contact the JNA?
22 A. Oh, yes. Now I remember that I was -- I was going to the town
23 hall one day, in order to make arrangements about a ship which
24 should -- on which the next team should go down to the Boka Kotorska.
25 Q. And who did you negotiate with about this boat that was to take
1 them to Boka Kotorska?
2 A. I only remember from the city hall that I made a telephone call
3 through the coastal radio, or something like that, but I don't remember
4 with whom I spoke.
5 Q. What was there in the city hall? Who did you talk to and who made
6 it possible for you to get this boat?
7 A. Well, at this special occasion, it seems to me that I was speaking
8 a little with Mr. Sikic about that, but I don't remember details about how
9 we could get this ship.
10 Q. Were you able to telephone from there?
11 A. Well, it was somehow, you know, through the so-called coastal
13 Q. And in the city assembly, did they communicate with the JNA
14 through the coastal radio?
15 A. Pardon? Could you say it again?
16 Q. Were Sikic and other representatives of the town assembly
17 communicating with representatives of the JNA through the coastal radio,
18 or did they have this possibility?
19 A. Well, since I could get some connection that way, probably they
20 could do so too. I don't know.
21 Q. While you were there in the town hall, were you in the basement or
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Can you tell us where the town hall is, the location?
25 A. Well, yes. It's in the middle of the Old Town, near the
2 Q. Was there any type of security for the town hall? Were there
3 guards outside, inside?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. In the course of your mission in Dubrovnik from the 5th to the
6 10th of October, and then from the 28th to the 29th of October, and the
7 4th to the 8th of December, did you ever see anyone in uniform or carrying
8 weapons in Dubrovnik?
9 A. I saw policemen, of course.
10 Q. Where, and how many?
11 A. There were, for example, policemen at our hotel, as guards. I
12 don't remember how many.
13 Q. Did you see policemen in other places as well? Were they armed?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Did you see any members of the Croatian army?
16 A. I don't think so.
17 Q. Did you, during your talks with the representatives of the
18 Dubrovnik Crisis Staff, ask for a meeting with the military forces or
19 military commanders in Dubrovnik?
20 A. I don't remember that.
21 Q. If I'm not wrong, you said that the task of your mission was to
22 monitor the ceasefire. Is this correct?
23 A. Yes, generally spoken.
24 Q. Very well. In brief: Doesn't it seem unusual, then, that you, as
25 someone who is an objective observer who has experience in the military
1 and in intelligence, and yet you say in your statement and during your
2 testimony -- or rather, you mention only one side. You never mention a
3 Croatian soldier or a Croatian policeman. And I can see that you were not
4 even interested in reaching the other side. I'm referring to military
5 sides. Isn't that unusual?
6 A. Well, you have to bear in mind that I was just one member of one
8 Q. How many members was a team supposed to have in order to carry out
9 the mission you were given?
10 A. Usually a team had three members.
11 Q. Were there any Croatian soldiers in the town of Dubrovnik at that
13 A. I didn't notice any military in the Old Town.
14 Q. If you're monitoring a ceasefire and you know about one side being
15 the JNA, are you also monitoring also the ceasefire between the units of
16 the JNA mutually, or what exactly was the ceasefire that you were
17 monitoring? Between which two sides?
18 A. Well, at this particular time and at that particular place, I'm
19 not sure if there was any ceasefire at all. I don't know that.
20 Q. Was there any fire at all? If so, where? Between which two
21 parties? Were the JNA units targeting each other or were there perhaps
22 two, three, or more warring sides? What is it that you learned about the
23 situation specifically?
24 A. Well, I have already told you something about some episodes of
25 shelling and so on also during my first day in Dubrovnik. But that's what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I remember about that.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is this a convenient time, Mr. Rodic?
3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I agree.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Rodic.
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. During your stay in Dubrovnik, you seem to have noticed no
9 representatives of the Croatian military. Tell me: During your stay in
10 Dubrovnik, did you ever hear sounds of firing by Croatian artillery?
11 A. I don't remember that.
12 Q. Did anyone from the Crisis Staff mention to you at all that the
13 Dubrovnik side had any military formations?
14 A. I don't remember anything about that.
15 Your Honours, may I ask permission to supplement a little to what
16 I said before the pause?
17 JUDGE PARKER: I would think there's no objection to that. Yes,
18 Mr. Brolund.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
20 You said before the pause that the monitorings were only dealing
21 with the JNA side. We were talking about my taskings, the taskings of my
22 team in Osijek. Now I remember one thing which I would like to tell about
24 When we were down there in Osijek, in the middle of September, the
25 leader of our town was Colonel Mangan. We offered our good offices to
1 establish a ceasefire, and I remember one occasion when the Croats, so it
2 seems -- seemed to us, did not respect that ceasefire. And I remember at
3 that occasion that we made a protest. We even made a protest to them,
4 Mr. Mangan asked me to call up on the phone to the Croatian side and
5 made -- and make a protest. And so we did. So now I remember in Osijek
6 we had contact with Croatian military also. Thank you.
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you too. May we state that you have no such recollection of
9 events in Dubrovnik? Am I correct in saying that?
10 A. I don't remember such things in connection with Dubrovnik. That's
12 Q. Do you remember at all during your stay in Dubrovnik, the three
13 times you stayed there, did the JNA ever draw your attention to violations
14 of ceasefire from positions occupied by the Croatian army and from which
15 they were firing on the JNA, or anything like that?
16 A. Well, we have already been mentioning today the letter we got from
17 General Strugar.
18 Q. I'm not asking you about the letter. I'm clear about that. But
19 can you please answer my question, the one I've just asked you.
20 A. Well, exactly in that question, General Strugar said that the
21 Croats had --
22 Q. Please, please. I must interrupt you. You're talking about the
23 letter dated the 6th of December; am I right?
24 A. Pardon?
25 Q. Are you talking about the letter dated the 6th of December, 1991?
1 A. Yes, in which General Strugar --
2 Q. Please allow me. I know about that letter. I understand the
3 letter. We've looked at it. You've answered those questions. I will ask
4 you additional questions related to that letter; however, my question to
5 you now is: Prior to the 6th of December, during your various stays in
6 Dubrovnik, were there ever any protests being made by the JNA to the
7 effect that Croats, the Croatian army, the Croatian artillery, had fired
8 on JNA units, that they had violated ceasefires? Did the JNA ever warn
9 you about Croatian artillery positions or anything like that? Do you have
10 any knowledge like that?
11 A. No, I have no knowledge about that.
12 Q. Can you please explain, in very simple terms, and briefly: You
13 were in Dubrovnik working on what kind of ceasefire exactly? You have the
14 JNA on one side, and who was on the other side, in your view?
15 A. Well, there must have been some Croatian units.
16 Q. Is this a logical conclusion you're trying to draw or do you
17 actually know anything about this?
18 A. It's a logical conclusion. I don't remember anything about that.
19 Q. Who was the liaison officer on the Croatian side, the one that you
20 were in touch with?
21 A. At Dubrovnik? It seems to me, as far as I remember, that the
22 liaison officer was a person who was in fact working as a translator,
23 Miso. Now I don't remember his last name.
24 Q. Now may I be allowed to remind you, the liaison officer on behalf
25 of the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff, was it Miso Mihocevic, a man named Miso
2 A. It seems to me that he was the liaison person to us from the
3 Croatian side.
4 Q. Did you have any direct contact with representatives of
5 Dubrovnik's Crisis Staff? If so, with whom precisely, when, and what was
7 A. We had meetings with the mayor, Pero Poljanic. As far as I
8 remember, he was the president of the Crisis Staff, and also with
9 Mr. Sikic, who was a member of the Crisis Staff. But I don't remember
10 exactly when these meetings took place. Well, that is, it seems that we
11 had such a meeting when we arrived to Dubrovnik at the --
12 Q. No notes, please. No notes. I'll take you back to your notes
13 when I choose to.
14 A. On the 5th of December, when we -- the day when we arrived. We
15 arrived in the morning. I think that day we had a meeting with the
16 Crisis Staff, but I don't remember any details.
17 Q. Your mission and its talks with the Crisis Staff on that day, were
18 your interpretation services used also?
19 A. No, I don't think so, because Miso was there.
20 Q. Did Miso get in touch with you on a number of different occasions,
21 in addition to those situations where specifically you talked to members
22 of the Crisis Staff, or rather, the president of Dubrovnik's Crisis Staff?
23 A. Well, on the 5th of December, he went with us -- he went with the
24 delegation of ministers and our team to Cavtat. I remember that.
25 Q. During your first stay, did you have daily contact with the Crisis
1 Staff in Dubrovnik?
2 A. I don't remember that.
3 Q. As far as I can tell, the only thing you remember is the day when
4 you first arrived in Dubrovnik with the mission, in relation to your first
6 A. That's right. And it's due to the fact that I only have notes
7 about that day. I don't have any notes about the other days. And, after
8 all, it's more than -- it's 12 1/2 years ago.
9 Q. Can you please tell me how you gave a statement to the
10 investigators of the Tribunal when you first met them and when you talked
11 about what your testimony today would be.
12 A. Pardon? You mean here in The Hague, or when I had the first
13 meeting with the investigators?
14 Q. First meeting you had.
15 A. I had the first meeting with the investigators from The Hague in
16 Denmark, in the town where I am living, in April 2002.
17 Q. Was this on the 9th and 10th of April, 2002?
18 A. I think so, yes.
19 Q. On that occasion, did you give a statement to the investigators?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. This statement, what was it based on?
22 A. Well, it was based on what I could remember myself and on my
23 notes, and some notes.
24 Q. When you gave the statement, did you remember anything at all
25 outside your notes? I mean any essential things for your testimony.
1 A. Well, I remembered, well, some -- most important things, the
2 things, of course, which had left the biggest impression on me. But,
3 after all, a very long period of time has passed, and so a lot of the
4 details had, of course, disappeared from my remembrance.
5 Q. Did you recollect anything that is not actually in your notes? Is
6 there anything like that that's included in the statement?
7 A. Oh, yes, it seems to me, yes.
8 Q. Could you give an example? During your conversation with -- your
9 interview with the investigators, you used your notes, I assume. Am I
10 correct in assuming that?
11 A. Yes, I did. I used the notes, yes.
12 Q. Right now, do you remember if there's any part of your statement,
13 the one you gave to the investigators, that's not actually contained in
14 the notes that we reviewed today?
15 A. Yes. For example, the fact that Mr. Hvalkof made protests to
16 General Jokic on the 7th of December, in Cavtat, it's nowhere in my notes.
17 I remembered that, for example. That's just one example.
18 Q. Please, if there are others, can you list them now.
19 A. No, I'm not able to do that in this moment.
20 Q. Because you don't remember?
21 A. I, in this moment, I can't recall the entire text of my testimony.
22 Q. Through your entire testimony on examination-in-chief today by my
23 learned friend and colleague - and we find more or less the same thing in
24 the statement that you gave the investigators - despite that, there are
25 things now that you can't remember, things you told them that are not in
1 your notes; am I correct?
2 A. Pardon? Could I have the question once more?
3 Q. Yes, I can. During the examination-in-chief, you were asked
4 questions by my learned friend and colleague from the Prosecution. You've
5 gone through more or less the entire statement, the statement you had
6 previously given to the investigators. My question now is: As you were
7 using your notes while you were being interviewed, you were using your
8 notes while being asked questions by the Prosecutor here today, is there
9 anything in the statement that you had told the Prosecution that wasn't
10 based on your notes, but rather on your recollection of events from the
12 A. Well, I don't remember that.
13 Q. Your first trip to Dubrovnik on the 5th, who was with you?
14 A. It was -- the team was consisting of Colm Mangan, as the leader of
15 the team, and the third -- and then Leif Maersk, and myself, and there was
16 a fourth monitor from Luxembourg whose name I don't remember, and our
18 Q. Any of these persons that you have now mentioned by name, are any
19 of them with you in the Hague today?
20 A. No, they aren't.
21 Q. Roughly speaking, can you tell me, during your entire stay in
22 Dubrovnik, or rather, the different times that you stayed there, did you
23 move about town a lot?
24 A. To some extent, yes. Not much, but to some extent, at some
1 Q. Can you specify, please. What do you mean by "not much"? What
2 exactly does "not much" mean specifically during your stay?
3 A. Well, I can't tell how many times we went outside the town. I
4 remember some occasions, of course. I remember we went out to Babin Kuk
5 at one occasion. We went, it seems to me, out to Komolac also.
6 Q. Babin Kuk, Komolac. Any other places?
7 A. I don't remember any other places.
8 Q. Did anyone follow you at the time when you went about?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. As you moved about town, were you assisted by anyone external to
11 your own party, any Croats, perhaps?
12 A. As I told you already, we had Miso as the liaison person, and he
13 also -- he often gave us some assistance.
14 Q. You told us today that on the 5th of October, you experienced
15 shelling for the very first time. What sort of shelling was it? Who was
16 firing the shells, and where from?
17 A. Well, it was -- the shells fell somewhere between Hotel Argentina
18 and the Old Town. I was together with my colleague Leif Maersk, and it
19 seemed to us that some shells were coming from the sea, and perhaps also
20 some from the land side.
21 Q. Was anything hit on that particular occasion?
22 A. Well, so about the same place, the next day, I noticed some
23 vehicles, some cars which had burned out, but I'm not sure if they were
24 hit at this occasion.
25 Q. Did you state this in your notes what specifically was hit during
1 the first shelling that you witnessed on the first day of your stay in
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. During your stay in Dubrovnik, before the 10th of October, did
5 anything significant happen? Was anything important going on that you
6 would now perhaps remember? And my question mainly concerns the shelling,
7 firing. Were there any special events that you remember from those days?
8 A. I don't remember such events.
9 Q. Your colleague, Hvalkof, did he also take notes at the time?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Your colleague Maersk, whom you socialised with, as I see, did he
12 keep notes?
13 A. I don't know that either.
14 Q. Was anyone in your mission in charge of keeping notes of
15 day-to-day events of meetings that you had when you met and talked to
17 A. Of course, every team made a report after every tasking, but
18 that's all I remember about that.
19 Q. Let me ask you specifically: Four monitors are talking, for
20 example, to two lawyers. That is a meeting we're trying to imagine. At
21 that meeting, you can't remember whether anyone is taking notes, you don't
22 know whether anyone is actually taking notes, and you can't remember. Is
23 that what you're trying to tell me now?
24 A. Perhaps I will remember, but that's not -- it's a long time ago.
25 Q. Following your meetings with the Crisis Staff, with JNA
1 representatives, you people from the mission, did you exchange views on
2 the people you had met and on what had been discussed at these meetings?
3 A. Oh, yes, of course we did speak about our job with each other.
4 Q. Did the head of your mission also show his views? I have
5 Ambassador Bondioli in mind.
6 A. I don't remember that clearly, but probably to some extent.
7 Q. Did you make comments concerning your impressions regarding the
8 meeting with representatives of Dubrovnik's crisis staff,
9 Mr. Pero Poljanic, specifically?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. How many times did you see General Strugar?
12 A. I saw him only once, and that was at the meeting at Meljine on the
13 28th of October, 1991.
14 Q. And after that --
15 A. I never saw him any more, to my best knowledge.
16 Q. Did you see him on television, in the papers?
17 A. Yes. It seems to me that I have seen him on the television.
18 Q. When you talk to each other, what did you say about your
19 impressions concerning your meeting with General Strugar?
20 A. I don't remember anything about that.
21 Q. Did you attend the meeting at all, the one on the 28th of October,
22 the one you're talking about?
23 A. Of course I was present.
24 Q. Do you perhaps choose not to remember anything while answering my
25 questions? Because that is the impression I have.
1 A. I'm doing my utmost to tell you everything which I remember.
2 Q. Tell me one thing, please: Today, in answer to questions by the
3 Prosecutor, you said that during your first stay in Dubrovnik, you had
4 seen a plane firing on the hill of Srdj and that a huge cross, a hilltop
5 cross had been destroyed. Later on, if I'm not mistaken -- let me first
6 ask you if that is correct.
7 A. Yes. As far as I remember, yes, to my best knowledge.
8 Q. During that round of shelling, the huge hilltop cross on Srdj, was
9 it actually destroyed?
10 A. So I remember it, yes.
11 Q. Can you please describe your memory of it, what it looked like
12 after the shelling. The hill, was there a cross on top of the hill? Was
13 it broken? Was it totally destroyed? Please describe to the best of your
14 recollection what the hill actually looked like after the shelling.
15 A. I don't remember any details.
16 Q. Do you know which hotel is near Argentina Hotel?
17 A. Well, yes. It seems to me that Hotel Excelsior is very close, is
18 rather close to Hotel Argentina.
19 Q. Any other hotel nearby?
20 A. I don't remember any other hotels there.
21 Q. You were there a number of times, not only 1991. Your situation
22 with the local hotel had not changed very much.
23 A. Yes, but I don't remember any other hotels in that part of the
25 Q. Did you visit Dubrovnik after 1991 to this very day?
1 A. No, I didn't. I have not.
2 Q. Was there perhaps also Belvedere Hotel nearby? Were you familiar
3 with that hotel?
4 A. Yes, I remember the name of that hotel, but I don't remember where
5 it was.
6 Q. Did anyone mention to you that there were Croatian military
7 positions near Belvedere Hotel, that's between Argentina Hotel and
8 Belvedere Hotel?
9 A. Well, now I remember from the meeting at Meljine, if I'm not -- as
10 far as I remember, Admiral Jokic said that there were some positions at
11 several places, yes. It's also in my notes.
12 Q. Do you remember those positions that General Jokic mentioned?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. And on your return from the negotiations with JNA representatives,
15 did you inform the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff about what had been said about
16 the Croatian positions?
17 A. I don't remember that.
18 Q. Did you inform anyone about this?
19 A. I don't know. Mr. Bondioli was leader of the team.
20 Q. So it seems that Mr. Bondioli would help us a lot more than you
21 can; no offence. Do you agree with me?
22 A. Probably. He was in charge, so of course he will know much
23 more -- he will probably know much more than I.
24 Q. When I asked you a little while ago about the large cross on the
25 top of Srdj hill, was it very visible because of its size and its
2 A. Oh, yes. It's very big.
3 Q. It could even be seen from the sea when approaching Dubrovnik?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. Did you enter the fact that that cross was toppled in your notes?
6 A. No, I don't think so.
7 Q. Why?
8 A. You know, my notes were often made in a hurry, and so it was
9 accidental what was put in them and what not.
10 Q. In your view, wouldn't that fact be more important, your seeing an
11 enormous cross on Srdj destroyed, than, for example, the fact that a shell
12 fell in a street close to your hotel? Well, I'm just thinking aloud.
13 A. Well, perhaps, but, as I said just a moment before, it was
14 accidental what was put in my notes and what not. So according to the
15 time, for example.
16 Q. When you mentioned these messages, on the 6th of December, the
17 shelling that you talked about took place, and you mentioned two messages,
18 one from Jokic and one from General Strugar; is this correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Do you know when Jokic's message arrived, to whom, and what its
21 contents were?
22 A. No. The only thing I have about that in my notes, as I have read
23 for you also today, is that it arrived about 1500 hours. I don't remember
24 anything about that.
25 Q. So you cannot tell us whether the message was sent in the form of
1 a telegram or a fax or a phone call or a radio connection? Can you tell
2 us anything about this?
3 A. No, I'm sorry, I'm not able to tell you anything about that.
4 Q. Does this also apply to General Strugar's message which you
5 mentioned as having arrived on the 6th of December? You say that all you
6 have in your notes is 1700 hours, and that's all you can say about it,
7 like this other message.
8 A. That's all what I can say about it.
9 Q. Did you hear from anyone, including people from the Dubrovnik
10 Crisis Staff and the members of your mission, that between 1500 hours and
11 1700 hours, anybody talked either through a radio connection or by
12 telephone, with Admiral Jokic and General Strugar?
13 A. No, I don't remember anything about that.
14 Q. You said, while you wrote down Jokic's message 1500 hours,
15 Strugar's message on the same date at 1700 hours. Do you know what the
16 form of these messages was? Were they handwritten? Did they arrive on
18 A. No, I don't know. Well, according to my notes, the message on
19 17 -- at 1700 hours from General Strugar was a letter.
20 Q. Who brought the letter?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Do you know how this letter reached you?
23 A. No, I am not able to tell you that.
24 Q. Do you know at all where General Strugar was at that time,? On
25 the 6th of December, 1991, where was General Strugar?
1 A. No, I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know where his command was?
3 A. We were visiting him at Meljine, and because of that, I assume
4 that his command was there.
5 Q. Up to the end of your mission, you assumed that his command was
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And where was Admiral Jokic's command?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know any other place, apart from Meljine, with which you
11 had communication on the territory of the Republic of Montenegro?
12 A. No, I don't remember that.
13 Q. And how did you then attempt to communicate or meet
14 representatives of the JNA? Who did you try to contact, where?
15 A. I did not take part in the arranging of these meetings, and I
16 don't know how they were arranged. I'm thinking especially about the
17 meeting on the 28th of October.
18 Q. Who, then, organised it, if you know?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Did Miso organise it?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Can you tell me once again who went to meet General Strugar and
23 Admiral Jokic on the 28th of October?
24 A. Yes. Mr. Bondioli, as the leader of our team, Mr. Haupt, and
1 Q. Did you have any special task that you were given by Mr. Bondioli
2 in connection with this meeting?
3 A. I don't remember anything about that.
4 Q. Did Mr. Bondioli keep his own personal notes at that meeting, or
5 some sort of minutes?
6 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
7 Q. And your colleague, Mr. Haupt?
8 A. I don't know either, concerning him.
9 Q. Did you keep any minutes or notes at that meeting?
10 A. No, not except for the notes I have here.
11 Q. When exactly did you write down the notes relating to the 28th of
13 A. I don't remember exactly. Either at the meeting or immediately
15 Q. So you leave open the possibility that it could have been after
16 the meeting that you wrote down these notes? Is this correct?
17 A. Well, I don't remember if it was at the meeting or immediately
18 after, more or less. So more or less, it's possible.
19 Q. During the meeting, while you were talking with the JNA
20 representatives, were you able to see your colleagues from the mission?
21 Were they within your sight?
22 A. Yes. We were sitting all of us at the same table, as far as I
24 Q. Did you see whether the ambassador, Bondioli, was taking down
25 notes at this meeting?
1 A. I don't remember that.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me: On the 8th of December, you said
3 that JNA officers came to see the Old Town, and in Exhibit P24, which has
4 four photographs, on the third photograph, you said that only the person
5 in the white coat on that photograph is a member, or rather, a
6 representative of the JNA.
7 A. He's the only person about whom I'm able to say that he was one of
8 these persons, to my knowledge. There were several -- there were some
9 persons; how many, I don't remember.
10 Q. Are you in this photograph?
11 A. No. I took that photo myself, as far as I remember.
12 Q. How is it possible that you don't know how many JNA officers came
13 to see the Old Town? Because after these events of the 6th of December --
14 A. Well, it's a long time ago. At that time, I probably knew it, but
15 I have forgotten it, simply. It's 12 1/2 years ago.
16 Q. Can you tell me how, then, you were able to recall when making
17 your statement to the investigators that there were two JNA officers?
18 This is not in your notes and you can't remember it now. How, then, were
19 you able to recall it, based on your notes, when giving a statement in
20 April 2002? You said there were two JNA officers, no more, no less. Did
21 someone help you?
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. Are you sure?
24 A. Of course I am. And --
25 Q. Why -- how come you're so sure all of a sudden? This is the most
1 certain reply I've had from you today, that nobody helped you when you
2 were making your statement?
3 A. Because this is my statement and only my statement, of course, and
4 it -- probably I'm sure that I -- it's written there that I said that
5 there were two of them, and it's two years ago, and so it seems at that
6 time that I could recall in my memory that there were two of them. But
7 I'm not able to establish that today.
8 Q. Can you explain on the basis of what you were able to recall back
9 then that there were two of them? Because 10 years had elapsed, or 11 at
10 that time.
11 A. I'm not able to tell you that.
12 Q. I believe you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. Can you tell me whether these officers took photographs or made
15 notes when making a tour of the Old Town? Because you said they went
16 round the most part of the Old Town and that you probably showed them some
17 damage. So did they write down any notes? Did they take any photographs
18 or make any sort of record during their visit?
19 A. I don't remember that. I only knew -- know what is written in my
20 notes, that where I say about them, that they were photographers. And so
21 this must mean that they had some equipment with them, but I don't
22 remember that.
23 Q. Were there only two officers making this tour, or don't you know
24 how many officers there were? Were there photographers in their team or
25 not? What do you know about this?
1 A. I don't remember anything more about that.
2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether it's
3 a good time to break for the day. Maybe the witness will remember more
4 tomorrow. If this is a convenient time.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Can you give me some indication, Mr. Rodic, of how
6 much longer you would expect to be with the witness?
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am bearing in mind that
8 the witness has to leave by 4.00 p.m. tomorrow, if I'm well informed, and
9 I will certainly finish my examination bearing this in mind, in time to
10 leave time for my learned friends for another 15 or 20 minutes of
11 examination, if this is enough, redirect.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I'm asking the question because you've already
13 spent over half an hour longer in cross-examination than the
14 examination-in-chief took, and we are now watching time. So I would be
15 very grateful if you'd be very conscious of time tomorrow. Don't use 4.00
16 as the target. Try and finish much earlier than that, if we're to move
18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour. Thank
20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm greatly encouraged by that, Mr. Rodic. I
21 think we're gradually getting into a better flow of things.
22 Mr. Petrovic.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please allow me to
24 address you, very briefly, in connection with something I mentioned on
1 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Is it necessary that the
2 witness remain doing any ancillary matters?
3 JUDGE PARKER: It's not necessary. If he wishes to get away
4 now -- we were told it would be a brief address.
5 Would you like to leave now? The situation has been reached,
6 Mr. Brolund, that we will adjourn for the evening, and you are asked to
7 return to complete your evidence tomorrow afternoon, in time, we are
8 assured, for you to get away. If you wish to leave the courtroom now, you
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave: In
14 accordance with what we said on Friday about the medical examination of
15 our client, the expert who is to examine him arrived in The Hague today.
16 When we talked to the expert immediately before today's session, she said
17 she needed about 12 working hours in order to conduct the examination. In
18 accordance with Your Honours' guidance on Friday, we arranged for her to
19 do the first part tomorrow, from 9.00 a.m. to 1.00 p.m. The doctor is to
20 continue on Wednesday at 7.00.
21 My question is: In view of the fact that visits are allowed in
22 the Detention Unit only from 9.00 a.m. onwards, would it be possible for
23 the Trial Chamber to use its influence and authority to ask or influence
24 for the possibility of the doctor to see the accused before 9.00 a.m. in
25 the morning, so that the examination can be completed without infringing
1 on the usual trial time in the afternoon? Or is there a possibility of,
2 with your assistance, our expert seeing the accused earlier in the
3 morning, in order not to lose time, the trial time that we need in this
5 JUDGE PARKER: It is unlikely at this hour that it will be
6 possible for us to arrange for the visit to commence earlier tomorrow
7 morning, because it is such a short time. It would be possible, though,
8 for us to try to ensure - I can't say that it will happen, but we will
9 endeavour to enable an earlier start on Wednesday morning and, if
10 necessary, Thursday morning. That will depend on the arrangements that
11 are in place in the Detention Centre and whether it will be possible to
12 enable some flexibility there. So we'll do what we can, but by the sound
13 of it, it will be possible, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, for your
14 medical expert to complete her examination without infringing on court
15 time. But we will do what can be done to enable her to have longer
16 periods in the morning, on Wednesday and, if necessary, Thursday.
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course it would be
18 most logical for her to continue on the Thursday. However, according to
19 the doctor's words, the nature of her examination requires that there be a
20 seven-hour period, a continuous seven-hour period for the examination to
21 take place, which is why she would have to come to the Detention Unit at
22 7.00 or 8.00 a.m. in order to complete the examination by 2.00 p.m., when
23 the accused has to be in this courtroom. This is the reason for my
24 request. Otherwise, she would be able to continue on Thursday. But she
25 said she had to conduct the examination in -- over a continuous seven-hour
1 period, and we need this time on Wednesday. I will see with the
2 Detention Unit whether this is possible at all, and of course we cannot
3 expect a reply from you now.
4 JUDGE PARKER: That is correct, Mr. Petrovic, but we will
5 certainly communicate with the Detention Unit and encourage, within the
6 scope of what is possible, the prospect of an early start on Wednesday
7 morning. If you are saying that there must be a seven-hour continuous
8 period, we would like to receive from the doctor tomorrow, in writing,
9 some account of the nature of the examination that would require a
10 continuous period of seven hours, which seems unusual, in my limited
11 appreciation of these matters. And if it is to be the case that there is
12 to be any intrusion into the afternoon's sitting time on Wednesday, we
13 will certainly need to see that there was justification for that in a
14 detailed written report from the doctor as to the nature of the
16 Well, I think that's as far as we can take this matter at the
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, just
19 very briefly: The Defence, bearing this in mind, is prepared to organise
20 this as follows. Two or three hours on Wednesday, we can continue without
21 the presence of the accused in the courtroom, without upsetting our usual
22 schedule. The Defence and the accused are willing to agree to this also.
23 If there is no other way, we propose that the first few hours on Wednesday
24 we work without -- in the absence of the accused.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that indication, Mr. Petrovic. That
1 is a most unusual course and one we'd prefer to avoid, if possible. We'll
2 judge from events tomorrow whether that is something that need to be
3 considered seriously or not. Thank you, though, for the indication.
4 Could I mention one matter, Mr. Rodic or Mr. Petrovic? We're
5 waiting on your response to the application which the Prosecution made to
6 add new documents to the Rule 65 ter list. I wonder if that response is
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have not done this
9 in writing. We expected to have an opportunity to discuss several
10 housekeeping matters before the Chamber, as we requested on Friday. We
11 have no objection to this course, and we are willing to accept this as
12 regards the 65 ter list.
13 JUDGE PARKER: I see. So we can proceed on the basis, then, that
14 there is no objection to the Prosecution's application; is that what
15 you're saying?
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with regard to the
17 Prosecution's application, this is correct. Should there be another
18 application in future, we will address it at the appropriate time.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. I would indicate that we are
20 prepared to hear you briefly, later in the week, at a convenient
21 time - we'll just judge how witnesses are going and when there's a
22 convenient time of five or so minutes - on the motion for the extension of
23 time for filing the expert report issue. So if you could be sure to be
24 ready, and we'll hear you when an opportunity arises on that.
25 Thank you, then, everybody. We will adjourn for the night now.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of January
3 2004, at 2.15 p.m.