Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3127

1 Wednesday, 25 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Good morning, Mr. Jusic. May I

7 remind you of the affirmation you took at the beginning, which still

8 applies.

9 WITNESS: DJELO JUSIC [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jusic. I'm Vladimir Petrovic,

15 attorney-at-law from Belgrade. I represent General Strugar, and I'm going

16 to put a few questions to you in relation to some of the things you said

17 yesterday.

18 A. I'm honoured to have met you here.

19 Q. Thank you. First of all, tell me, yesterday towards the end of

20 the examination-in-chief, you said that you can hardly wait for the trial

21 to continue and for you to appear before the Trial Chamber yet again this

22 morning. My question is how come? How come that you have this burning

23 wish to do so?

24 A. Because I wish to return to my Dubrovnik as soon as possible.

25 That is my only wish.

Page 3128

1 Q. You mentioned yesterday your lawyers too. Who are your lawyers

2 here? Can you distinguish between the parties involved in these

3 proceedings? Am I your lawyer? Is the other side your -- are they your

4 lawyers, or have you come here to tell the truth as a witness?

5 A. I came here to tell the truth about what happened in Dubrovnik in

6 1991 and the years that followed. I'm not hampered by any lawyers here.

7 Q. All right. You said yesterday that in 1990, if I understood you

8 correctly, you came to Dubrovnik from Zagreb. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also said that that same year, 1990, you felt that there were

11 some things that were going on and that your town needed you; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Tell me now, what was it that was happening in 1990 at all in the

15 former SFRY to the best of your understanding?

16 A. The newspapers were full of provocations. The newspapers were

17 full, especially Belgrade newspapers. I can even give you the names of

18 the journalists who wrote false things, that something strange was

19 happening. I did not see that either in Zagreb or in Dubrovnik.

20 Dubrovnik is my hometown. All of my music has to do with

21 Dubrovnik. I simply had to be there. I feel there the best, and I feel

22 close to my town.

23 Q. You say that the newspapers were full of provocations.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, what was your view then, in 1990, regarding the victory

Page 3129

1 of a nationalist party in the elections in Croatia, the party of Franjo

2 Tudjman? At that time, you were considered to be a Yugoslav-oriented

3 person. So what was your view regarding the fact that a predominantly

4 nationalist party came to power in Croatia?

5 A. That's what you said. I did not feel that way.

6 Q. Tell me, what was this new government like? What is your

7 assessment of this government that was elected into office in May 1990 in

8 Croatia, if I'm not mistaken?

9 A. This was a government that was elated, full of optimism that

10 things would move for the better, that we in Dubrovnik and throughout

11 Croatia would finally get the money that we earn, that this money will not

12 go, for example, to Belgrade. And then when we are supposed to do

13 something for ourselves, we literally had to beg in order to be able to

14 build something for ourselves, part of a road, part of a coastline, a

15 building, whatever. This was a generally known thing. And the time had

16 come for us to get rid of that burden.

17 The people of Dubrovnik are very hard working. They want to have

18 what they earned made available to them.

19 Q. So was that your political view in 1990, that Yugoslavia should be

20 dismantled at all costs?

21 A. I am at all costs a composer. I am not burdened by politics at

22 all. The only thing that I feel strongly about is justice. I worked a

23 lot, and I was never appropriately remunerated for that.

24 Q. Were you not appropriately remunerated because somebody in

25 Belgrade seized part of your fees or somebody took something away from you

Page 3130

1 that belonged to you?

2 A. Let us clarify something straight away, because I feel that you

3 are leading me somewhere where I don't feel comfortable. I have to tell

4 you that I have a lot of friends in Belgrade. I still have a lot of

5 friends in Belgrade. These friends followed my fate in Dubrovnik. They

6 called me, they helped me in a way, at least in verbal terms, but I needed

7 that. So I don't think that it is those people who attacked me. I was

8 attacked by some kind of army that I used to believe in too. They

9 attacked me all of a sudden, unannounced, and unnecessarily so, I think.

10 Q. I would like to ask you, if possible, to focus on my questions.

11 We started this discussion by my asking you whether you thought then that

12 Yugoslavia should be dismantled at all costs, and your answer to that was,

13 "I'm a composer." But I'm asking you as a person who thinks, as a person

14 who certainly has a view of his own, was that your political position?

15 Yes or no.

16 A. Don't say that to me, yes or no. I want to tell you exactly what

17 I think. The newspapers were full then, and everybody was writing about

18 the fact that we should part our ways peacefully. We are civilised

19 people. As you say, I'm a composer. You're a lawyer, and just as we're

20 discussing things here, I thought that we would discuss things, shake

21 hands, go our separate ways, and that was my position then. And I don't

22 think that it is necessary for you to put words into my mouth that I was

23 thinking in political terms. I was not. I'm not interested in politics.

24 Q. Tell me, please, in view of the fact that you worked for TV Yutel,

25 too, what kind of a television was it? What was the programme orientation

Page 3131

1 of that TV station?

2 A. I did not work for them.

3 Q. Please wait for me to put the question, and the question has to be

4 interpreted as well, so could you please wait.

5 Who established Yutel, and who had decisive influence over the

6 editorial policies of that TV station? Do you know anything about that?

7 A. Can I answer now? I did not have any association with Yutel

8 television. I spoke for them just as I spoke for the German television

9 ZDF and for French television and for TV Portugal. I'm not interested.

10 In the summer of 1991, they wanted to make a portrait of mine, my

11 portrait as an artist. I was not interested in who was in charge of that.

12 They had announced themselves, just like many other TV stations did who

13 came to Dubrovnik and to my house. They made a TV programme, about 15 or

14 20 minutes. This was an artistic portrait of mine. So that's the only

15 thing I know about them, and this is the only dealing I had to do with

16 them. And I think that there was a journalist there, a cameraman, and a

17 secretary. That was about it.

18 Q. So what was this that you said to us yesterday that you carried

19 recordings to the Libertas Hotel and that you are the first person to have

20 sent the truth about Dubrovnik to the world? You told us about that

21 yesterday.

22 A. You did not quite understand what I was saying. Now I'm going to

23 repeat what I said.

24 Q. Go ahead.

25 A. I said yesterday that in the autumn of 1991, I was called by these

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1 people who had done this portrait of mine. They knew where I lived, and

2 they know that I can see Dubrovnik and the panorama of all of Dubrovnik,

3 and they said: "Please give us some information now. In Belgrade they

4 are saying that you are burning tyres, and Zagreb says that you were

5 attacked. Where is the truth?" And the only thing I said: "I'm going to

6 tell you the truth now. A shell fell on St. Ivan's fortress, and also

7 Peskarija, the harbour." That's the only thing I said. I said there were

8 no tyres burning too.

9 Q. How many times did you do that? How many times did they call you?

10 How many times did you send them reports, if this can be called a report?

11 A. Call it what you will. Once, one single time.

12 Q. Tell me, yesterday you mentioned that you went to the Libertas

13 Hotel where Croatian television had its offices. What were you doing

14 there?

15 A. I really cared about this truth reaching out to the world. Many

16 journalists asked me to give this. However, I did not know these people.

17 I just happened to see them in Dubrovnik. I gave this to the national TV

18 station, Croatian television from Zagreb in the area of Dubrovnik, that

19 is. I didn't give them everything. I gave them what I had on that day.

20 I did not --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end because

22 counsel spoke.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Let us be more specific. I believe that you cannot remember very

25 specifically, though, but what did you give them? How many times did you

Page 3134

1 give it to them? When did you give it to them?

2 A. Once. Once. And this film was never shown on television because

3 this is what the situation was. Below the town of Dubrovnik, there were a

4 few gunboats. They were moving about all the time. And at one point in

5 time, a yacht appeared. I saw that it was a German yacht. I saw the

6 flag, and it was torpedoed, and it simply disappeared from the horizon. I

7 gave them that cassette. I never saw it again. It was a unique

8 recording. I never got it back. So that was once.

9 And the second time is what we watched yesterday. So it was

10 twice, actually.

11 Q. Tell me, why was this dramatic recording not shown, the one that

12 was torpedoed by a Yugoslav navy ship, as you say?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know. That is beyond me.

14 Q. Didn't you tell us yesterday that all world televisions broadcast

15 your recordings; CNN, et cetera?

16 A. Yes, they did, and this is what I got from Croatian television.

17 Q. Yes. But let us make a distinction. What was it that you gave to

18 them, what was it that they received, and what was broadcast? You said it

19 was on two occasions. On the first occasion you gave them this recording

20 of the torpedoed ship which was lost and was never aired; is that right?

21 A. I didn't see it on television. You have to bear in mind we didn't

22 have electricity in Dubrovnik for 157 days, and so we couldn't watch

23 television. I never saw it.

24 Q. Tell me, when did you give the second material?

25 A. The moment it happened. For instance, if this took place on the

Page 3135

1 6th and the 7th, it was on the 8th of that month that I gave it to them

2 because it was very important for me that the truth should begin -- be

3 spread on that same day because people were inquiring, "Are you being

4 attacked?" People called me by phone. Friends called me from Belgrade.

5 Is this possible? Is this is not possible? They were very concerned

6 about my fate and my state of health. So we were getting these inquiries

7 all the time.

8 Q. Tell me, please. So this was on the 7th, the 8th, and the 9th

9 that you took these tapes to them; right?

10 A. Yes, I did. I took them personally to them and they had them

11 re-recorded and then I took them back because I wanted to make sure that I

12 would have them, I wouldn't have the same experience as with the yacht

13 recording.

14 Q. Tell me, what was your experience with the yacht tape since you

15 don't know what happened to it?

16 A. I never found out that it was broadcast, so I would never let it

17 out of my hands any more. So I just kept them.

18 Q. So what was the first time when you re-recorded these tapes of

19 yours?

20 A. The minute it happened or a couple of days after the events.

21 Q. Tell me, where did you do this re-recording?

22 A. At the Libertas Hotel, in a cellar. There was a small studio

23 there, a makeshift affair, as it were.

24 Q. Whose studio was this?

25 A. Since there was a shooting at the studio, the real studio of the

Page 3136

1 Croatian television, they took what they could away, and they set up this

2 makeshift studio, and that was used.

3 Q. So this is what you used a couple of days after this event in

4 December?

5 A. Yes. I tried to do it as quickly as possible.

6 Q. Tell me, how was it possible that you did this at the Libertas

7 Hotel on the 6th, 7th, and 8th of December when it is well -- a well-known

8 fact that the Hotel Libertas burned down?

9 A. Sir, a second ago I told you that this took place in the cellar.

10 The hotel building was devastated, the large reception hall, the lobby

11 existed no longer. These were ruins. It was burnt down. There was no

12 elevator. We went down into the cellar on foot, taking the stairs.

13 Q. So the Hotel Libertas did not burn down on the 6th of December.

14 A. It was devastated. It was demolished. It burned down. There was

15 a fire brigade. You keep asking me about the 6th of December. I cannot

16 tell you with precision. Perhaps it may have been before.

17 There is a plaque at the hotel to honour the memory of the people

18 who got killed so please don't try to confuse me by these exact days or

19 minutes. I cannot remember that with precision, but it was then, I can

20 tell you that.

21 Q. So at any rate, when did you go to the Hotel Libertas to make

22 these copies? At the time when you went to make these copies, it hadn't

23 been burnt down, it was intact.

24 A. No. It had burnt down. There was just the skeleton of the hotel

25 that was standing.

Page 3137

1 Q. Tell me, then, where down? To -- what was there below the Hotel

2 Libertas that you went to?

3 A. There were some big corridors, some sort of a room, a large

4 conference room but without anything in it. There were no glasses, no

5 viewers [as interpreted] in it. There was nothing.

6 Q. So you assert that the studio of Croatian television at that time

7 was at the Libertas Hotel which had burnt down.

8 A. Sir --

9 Q. In the cellars, in the basement, in some corridors of the hotel.

10 This is your position?

11 A. Sir, this was not a studio in normal terms. These were two or

12 three appliances, apparatus. It was not a real studio. You know what a

13 real studio looks like, more or less like this courtroom. It is a huge

14 room. This was just a small room. It was a makeshift affair because they

15 normally had a studio up there at Boninovo, the real TV studio, which

16 still is there today.

17 Q. So this makeshift studio was there after the 6th of December?

18 A. Yes, it was there so as to be safe and in a place that no shell

19 could reach and had no reason to target, a place that no one had any

20 reason to target.

21 Q. Tell me, if there was no electricity, how were you able to work in

22 that basement?

23 A. Well, some of the hotels had some generating sets. For instance,

24 the Excelsior Hotel next to us, they had electricity. You could hear

25 sounds coming from it as well as from the Hotel Argentina, which also had

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1 a set. The Revelin Fort also had a generating set, and some of them had

2 these small Yamaha generating sets, and they provided electricity.

3 Q. So after the fire of the 6th of December, in this hotel there

4 remained an intact electrical installation and a generating set which was

5 supplying electricity to this makeshift studio. Is that so?

6 A. No, it wasn't so. We didn't have electricity in the entire hotel,

7 it was just in that part, the basement. There was a swimming pool on the

8 top floor of the hotel, the gym. There was no electricity. The

9 installations were down. We just had these small makeshift affairs,

10 generating sets which could perhaps help you light a bulb or two, a

11 miniature thing.

12 Q. And how did you get into the hotel? And if I'm not wrong, one

13 reaches the hotel from up, gets into the hotel from above. And how did

14 you enter the hotel in this upper storey? The entrance to the hotel had

15 been demolished. How did you get into the hotel? What route did you

16 take?

17 A. Well, actually, as you said, I had to creep into the hotel. If

18 the lobby was above there, it was all in glass and it existed no more, so

19 one had to actually creep into the hotel, and that is a proper way of

20 putting it. Exactly. That's how I got in, creeping into the hotel.

21 Q. Did any other people creep into the hotel getting into it and out

22 of it in that way?

23 A. I didn't see anybody else. When I came there, a young man was

24 waiting for me after I had crept into the hotel.

25 Q. And who was this young man? Who did he belong to?

Page 3140

1 A. Belong to?

2 Q. What was he doing there?

3 A. He was some sort of a technician there in the TV studio.

4 Q. Tell me, how did you get in touch with this young man at all? The

5 telephones were down, there was no electricity; how did this whole thing

6 come about at all?

7 A. What you are saying, that there was no telephone connection, at

8 sometimes the telephones did work. People would call you via radio

9 stations, saying that they had lost trace of their kin or the people in

10 their family had been killed, and so on and so forth, so that telephones

11 sometimes did work in this way. And Radio Dubrovnik also had a generating

12 set, and it was also airing its programmes using this set.

13 Q. And who else was there when you were copying these things?

14 A. This lad and another one. So there were two young men about 30

15 years old. They are young in relation to me.

16 Q. Did you know them from before? What are their names?

17 A. From sight.

18 Q. What were their names?

19 A. One is Vedran Benic. He is an editor now, I believe.

20 Q. And the other one?

21 A. I cannot remember.

22 Q. Well, okay. We'll go back to that a bit later.

23 Were you -- did you regret the fact that the SFRY was no more?

24 A. I regretted the way in which things could happen, and I'm

25 thinking, for instance, about Czechoslovakia where they nicely sat down

Page 3141

1 and agreed and said we would remain friends and let's move on. So nobody

2 -- none of us expected this -- this punch in the belly, this surprise,

3 this thing that we all experienced.

4 Q. Tell me, did you personally feel that Belgrade was ripping you

5 off, that your money was going to Belgrade? Was this your conviction as

6 well?

7 A. Well, look here -- well, I don't know what to reply to that. I

8 didn't come -- I didn't go to Belgrade much, and my relations with the

9 people there were very correct. Not only business relations but also

10 friendly relations. Still today I have friends there, and it is my

11 contention that it wasn't exactly Belgrade that attacked us.

12 Q. I'm not asking you, Mr. Jusic, about the attack. What I'm asking

13 you about is the time --

14 A. I know what you're asking me. I'll finish. I'm a composer.

15 Okay. So my songs listened to in Belgrade, Zagreb, Ljubljana, et cetera,

16 and all this forms which are written in that connection go to Belgrade and

17 there they actually determine how much goes in terms of remuneration to a

18 certain composer. So since I didn't have a team of lawyers to follow

19 this, I couldn't actually monitor this. But this was a general opinion,

20 and it was always in the papers, and they always indicated some specific

21 date, but this is a general information in the papers that this was

22 happening. I cannot reply to the effect that I was personally ripped off

23 or whether I was or wasn't.

24 Q. If I understood you well, so it was in Belgrade that actually

25 summed up how much of your particular songs were aired, in which

Page 3142

1 particular station or situation. So you said it was in that they would

2 sum up the broadcasting times of your music in different places. So what

3 significance is the fact that this was done in Belgrade if it was done

4 properly? If it wasn't done properly, does that mean you were ripped off

5 by someone in Belgrade?

6 A. Well, for example, I'll give you an example. For example, my

7 music was broadcast throughout the world and this was done through an

8 European agency which is called G-E-M-A, Gema, and the money, the proceeds

9 and the information about the broadcasting would go to Belgrade, to the

10 capital. So for instance now it's the year 2004. In 2004, I'm receiving

11 money which I earned in 2001, with a three-year delay, in other words.

12 Can you explain that to me?

13 Q. You're telling me Belgrade is to blame for this?

14 A. No, no, no. This is just where the money went. You are putting

15 words into my mouth. I'm just giving you a concrete example.

16 Q. Now I suppose this is much better. Things have improved because

17 the money is now in Zagreb and no one is touching your money in Zagreb.

18 A. Please don't ask me that. Please.

19 Q. I'm not putting to you an indecent question.

20 A. I didn't say it was indecent. But if you so wish I can give you

21 an answer to that question as well, but there is no need. I have not put

22 the blame at Belgrade's door, which you're trying to put into my mouth.

23 Q. Why did you then think that this country should be dismantled?

24 A. I never thought that. I never said that. I thought that we

25 should actually part in a civilised way. This is the general opinion in

Page 3143

1 Croatia. We will be to -- deal with this together with Serbia, with

2 Montenegro, and everyone will keep their own.

3 Q. To sum this up, to recapitulate, so it was Belgrade that was

4 ripping Dubrovnik off and actually seizing the results of its work,

5 including the work of your work.

6 A. You're constantly putting in my mouth things which I didn't say,

7 and please tell me what is it that you want me to say to you. I never

8 mentioned any rip-offs. This was a general view. It was a generally

9 known thing. It was common knowledge. It was something which was written

10 about in the papers daily, in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegrin papers, this

11 was not something I made up.

12 Q. Was it a generally held belief or was it the truth? Please --

13 A. No.

14 Q. Please let me finish. Was it a generally held belief or was it

15 true that the results of the labour of Dubrovnik and Croatia were

16 appropriated by someone in Belgrade? Was it the generally held belief or

17 was it the truth?

18 A. Look, I didn't have those papers in my hands. It was a general

19 truth. That was precisely the reason why we should have parted amicably,

20 because we all know that the Serbian people are hard working, that the

21 Croatian people are hard working, and why, then, did we have to go through

22 all that? We could have negotiated. And I can see that the two of us

23 would have had a very nicely negotiated, amicable settlement.

24 Q. But perhaps we could have peacefully remained together.

25 A. Well, yes, definitely.

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Page 3145

1 Q. So the political situation in Croatia was exacerbating, which is

2 what you say a few times in your statement. Now, tell me, what were the

3 specific manifestations of this deterioration of the situation in Croatia?

4 What was actually happening?

5 A. I will tell you, for example --

6 Q. Please be brief so we can go home as early as possible and

7 transact our business.

8 A. Yes. May I?

9 Q. Yes, by all means.

10 A. For instance, in Dubrovnik, Nin was a favourite magazine which

11 -- in which wrote many famous journalists and some acquaintances, and in

12 fact friends of mine. For instance, there was a journalist by the name of

13 Momo Kapor who wrote this article I believe in the fall of 1990. He wrote

14 about Dubrovnik where he said Croatians are throwing little children into

15 the air, smashing their heads against the concrete, ripping off parts of

16 their bodies. So this provoked general shock in Dubrovnik, general shock.

17 The very idea that a person who had been a friend of the people of

18 Dubrovnik, who came to Dubrovnik at least two times a year, was saying

19 such things. What does this tell us? This tells us that someone was

20 trying to incite, ignite a fire that no one needed.

21 Then there was this second journalist. I remember this very

22 vividly because there was general consternation. People were really

23 concerned that someone could write things like that. For instance, in

24 1991 when Dubrovnik was -- and this was in 1991 when Dubrovnik was full of

25 tourists and it seems to me at that took place a year before.

Page 3146

1 Q. Is this the most dramatic thing that happened in Croatia in 1990

2 and 1991?

3 A. Sir, I don't know what could be more dramatic than that, because

4 those people are my friends. The Serbs are. Jews are my friends.

5 Catholics are my friends. I had an Orthodox musician in my band. He

6 stayed with my band for 20 or 30 years. All this only goes to show that

7 Dubrovnik was absolutely not encumbered by this sort of thing. But it was

8 certainly burdened by such falsehoods as this article by Momo Kapor which

9 I just described.

10 Q. Did you read this article?

11 A. Yes, I think I even left it -- I deposited it somewhere for

12 posterity to be able to show it to them.

13 Q. Please tell me, were there any armed conflicts there? In addition

14 to this article that you have been describing, did people -- were people

15 getting killed? What was happening? Was there something more drastic,

16 more dramatic than the article by Momo Kapor?

17 A. We were peacefully enjoying ourselves at the beach and enjoying

18 the beauties of our city. People were bringing the fruit of their labour

19 to the Konavle market. The people, the sailors from the coastal folk

20 living there, and that's how we went about our normal business. There

21 were no armed conflicts, there were no attacks, there were no uniforms, no

22 weapons, nothing of the kind.

23 Q. What period are you referring to? When was this happening when

24 you were peacefully bathing at the beach and there were no armed

25 conflicts?

Page 3147

1 A. The period you asked me about, 1990, 1991 until September.

2 Q. So the only thing which actually unsettled you in this entire

3 period was this article by Momo Kapor. Everything else was all right in

4 Dubrovnik, in Croatia, in Yugoslavia. Everything else was okay?

5 A. Now you are relating me to Momo Kapor. There was countless such

6 articles. This was the first one, and it was so unpleasant and so

7 glaringly so, but there were other articles as well of that type.

8 And then in the summer of 1991, there were some aircraft that were

9 flying over the Stradun, and I know that some people were writing about

10 how this was affecting the foundations of the Old City which were shaking,

11 and already at that time there were some hints of what would come. It is

12 really not pleasant for me to have a plane flying over my head, breaking

13 the sound walls. And this was in 1991. I just remembered that this

14 happened in that year. So don't just ask me about me about Momo Kapor.

15 Others also wrote things like that. Tijanic, for instance, and all these

16 other journalists whom we all well liked. They were all well-liked.

17 These were -- but then we were asking ourselves, what kind of a people

18 were they when they could write such things?

19 Q. Were there any troops in Dubrovnik at any time?

20 A. Yes, I think the army was in Dubrovnik until 1980 when Dubrovnik

21 was declared a protected city. The Yugoslav army was at Gruz and was

22 transferred to Trebinje. Perhaps it was prior to 1980, but after that

23 there were no troops there.

24 Q. So tell me. This was probably the proclamation of the city as

25 protected UNESCO city. One of the conditions for that was to transfer the

Page 3148

1 garrison from the city to Trebinje?

2 A. Yes, it was. I remember it was one of the requirements to be

3 filled for that. And it was good for Dubrovnik as a tourist city. Why

4 would you want to have soldiers roaming about a city, and troops? It was

5 generally nothing apart from the fact that Trebinje is quite near. It's

6 20 minutes away.

7 Q. I can imagine how shocked you were when in the city of Dubrovnik

8 you saw members of the Croatian army of the National Guard Corps.

9 A. I was not shocked at all because this didn't happen. You are

10 imputing the things to me again. I never saw troops in town, not the

11 Guard, not the other formations you referred to.

12 Q. All right. We're going to get to that later. You said yesterday,

13 "I had to defend my town." Is that right?

14 A. Exactly.

15 Q. Tell me, how did you view this role of yours? How is this that a

16 composer can defend his town? What did you do, for instance?

17 A. I'm going to give you a practical answer. People were scattered

18 about in different shelters. I'll give you the names of a few shelters

19 where I organised some programmes: St. Ivan, Revelin, Minceta, then the

20 Franciscan cloister. I organised a kind of programme every day there for

21 some singing to be going on, for the children to be cheered up. There

22 were no political speeches or any such thing. That was my mission. I

23 wrote quite a few songs precisely then, during the war. One was even

24 proclaimed the most patriotic song after the war.

25 Q. So you wrote patriotic songs for the homeland, to raise the morale

Page 3149

1 of the population.

2 A. No, no, no. These were not warrior songs. This was not a call to

3 rebellion, no. Look, we are actually talking about me, and they -- and

4 people say that when guns shoot, the muses fall silent, and I wanted it to

5 be the other way round.

6 Q. Tell me, did all the musicians of Dubrovnik take such a stand in

7 this situation?

8 A. Yes, those who stayed behind, because many left in order to make a

9 living elsewhere. But I stayed and many people stayed. The symphony

10 orchestra was still there, then also the children's choir that I was in

11 charge of, then also there were smaller ensembles, then Tereza Kesovija

12 remained in Dubrovnik, and she sang often. By the way, her house, her new

13 villa in Konavle, was razed to the ground. And that's the kind of thing

14 that happened.

15 Q. Did somebody call you up then? How old were you at the time?

16 A. I was pretty old.

17 Q. Well, it doesn't look that way.

18 A. Well, I was pretty old.

19 Q. Did anybody call you up, though?

20 A. No, there was no call-up for me.

21 Q. Were there any call-ups for other musicians?

22 A. You are trying to saddle me with the military all the time. I did

23 not see any call-up papers, any such thing. I don't know. I don't know.

24 I'm going to answer all your questions --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please ask the speakers

Page 3150

1 to slow down and not to overlap each other. Thank you.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, you continue almost to argue with the

3 witness as he's trying to answer. Could you observe the guidance you gave

4 to the witness at the beginning and wait until he's finished and the

5 interpretation is finished before carrying on.

6 And you, sir, will remember that guidance that was given. Thank

7 you.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Jusic, I'm going to put some questions to you, those that are

10 allowed by the Trial Chamber. If the Trial Chamber does not allow any of

11 my questions, then the situation is quite different, of course. However,

12 if the Trial Chamber allows these questions, then please answer my

13 questions by saying, "I know," "I don't know," "I did see," "I did not

14 see." That's no problem whatsoever. If you never saw a Croat soldier in

15 town, you're going to tell me, "I never saw one in town," and that will be

16 the end of that part of our conversation. I'm going to put questions to

17 you as I deem necessary in the best interests of my client in accordance

18 with the Rules of this Tribunal.

19 So my question to you was: Were there any musicians who were

20 mobilised?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was there general mobilisation in Dubrovnik?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was Dubrovnik a defended town?

25 A. It was a defended town only through the will of its people. I

Page 3151

1 remember once when this army, the aggressor, was in a position to enter

2 the town with an orchestra. Perhaps I could put it that way. However,

3 the people said that they would act as they did in the medieval times,

4 that from their windows they would pour hot oil on the invaders. That's

5 the only thing I heard of. Old women were saying that.

6 Q. Tell me, did the people of Dubrovnik prepare anything else to deal

7 with the aggressor except for this hot oil?

8 A. I'm not aware of anything.

9 Q. Was there anything else, perhaps, any other of these ancient

10 methods of defence; for example, tar and setting fires and things like

11 that? Any such thing?

12 A. Well, look, perhaps I should explain some things. You could have

13 a million dollars in your pocket, but we were dreaming of seeing a single

14 apple or a single carrot, because the enemy had burned everything down.

15 So we could not really be bothered by things like those that you are

16 proposing right now.

17 Q. Did anybody take care of the defence of Dubrovnik? I mean, this

18 hot oil, the tar and everything else, did anybody organise any such thing?

19 A. Again you're saying tar and I didn't say tar.

20 Q. All right. Hot oil, then.

21 A. Look, I'm talking to you about the Old Town within the Old City

22 walls. That is where I walked about from my apartment, and I swore that I

23 would tell the truth. Within the Old City walls, there was no such thing

24 like what you are aiming at. So please go ahead and put your questions.

25 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me what is it that I'm aiming at.

Page 3152

1 What do I find -- what am I trying to get at?

2 A. Well, I say oil and you add tar, and things like that.

3 Q. Tell me, where was it that you moved about the town of Dubrovnik

4 at the time that we're talking about?

5 A. For example, the Franciscan cloister and then the building of the

6 festival and then the concert at the cathedral. We did not really have

7 much space. We were all moving within, say, a single kilometre or a

8 kilometre and a half. I really missed my walking, so then I walked by the

9 city walls so that the enemy would not see me from Zarkovica. I went

10 jogging, for instance. But there weren't any meeting places where people

11 would meet up. I would go to see my friends at St. Ivan, at the aquarium

12 or at Fort Revelin, places like that.

13 Q. You say that you could move for about a kilometre and a half from

14 your house which is above the Excelsior Hotel. In which direction?

15 A. Along the Old City walls and then by the houses, by the buildings.

16 Q. What is the distance between your apartment and the Old City

17 walls?

18 A. Say 700, 800 metres.

19 Q. And what is the distance between your apartment and the Libertas

20 Hotel?

21 A. Two kilometres.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: One kilometre.

23 Q. In order to reach your apartment -- to reach Libertas from your

24 apartment, where would you did?

25 A. I'd go through town. I'd go to Pile. You know what the layout

Page 3153

1 is, then I would go up to Put Ivana Starcevic.

2 Q. Ante Starcevic.

3 A. Ante Starcevic. Now I see that you do know about this. And then

4 Libertas is there near the cemetery.

5 There were some periods when there were no alerts. You know, we

6 weren't really under sirens all the time. We already learned what the

7 system was, and that remained a mystery to me; how did they know that the

8 attack had ended?

9 Q. Tell me, October, November, and December, these three months, how

10 much of this time did you spend in a shelter or wherever you were hiding

11 when the attack would start?

12 A. I had this inner feeling of protest. I did not want to go to

13 shelters. I went to a shelter only one single time. I went to a shelter

14 which is near my apartment building. It was called the atomic shelter.

15 That was one of the bad days.

16 My apartment faces Dubrovnik and the sea, and I did my composing

17 then. As a matter of fact, I composed an oratorium then, which is called

18 The Truth -- The Truth of a Free -- About a Free Town. And I also wrote

19 this in Latin, "De Civitate Libertatis Veritas." I did this based on the

20 text written by a bishop, and it was performed later on.

21 I would like to have that oratorium performed in Belgrade too.

22 That is my wish, and I hope that it will be performed in Belgrade some

23 day.

24 Q. Who wrote the lyrics, the verses?

25 A. Dr. Zelimir Puljic and poet Luka Paljetak. And the choir of the

Page 3154

1 Split Opera sang, and the soloist was Ruza Pospis-Baldani, and the

2 Dubrovnik Symphony Orchestra performed.

3 Q. And the performance took place on the 6th of December, 1994?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. All right. Tell me, what was the situation like in Dubrovnik at

6 that time? You were either very brave or it was not dangerous. I don't

7 know what else one could infer.

8 A. I told you just now that perhaps I was brave to the point of

9 madness. I said that to you, basically.

10 Q. Where did you go -- where else did you go within the town of

11 Dubrovnik?

12 A. Prijeko.

13 Q. When I say the town of Dubrovnik, I mean --

14 A. Within the Old City walls.

15 Q. Sir, let us clarify one thing: When I say the town of Dubrovnik,

16 I'm referring to the town, and when I say the Old Town, then I mean what

17 is within the Old City walls. So my question is where else did you move

18 about in the town of Dubrovnik?

19 A. Mostly within the Old Town. And sometimes, when there would be a

20 lull for a few days, then I would go to Lapad. I would go for a walk to

21 Lapad and back.

22 Q. How far away is that? From your house, I mean.

23 A. Three kilometres.

24 Q. You went to Lapad. Could you mention a few hotels in the Bay of

25 Lapad?

Page 3155

1 A. Park, Adriatic, Vis I, Vis II. That would be about it. I didn't

2 spend much time in Lapad. But Babin Kuk is not Lapad, though.

3 Q. Who was in these hotels?

4 A. To the best of my knowledge, refugees from Konavle, Primorje, from

5 the places where people were expelled from.

6 Q. Did you yourself see them there?

7 A. Yes, lots of them. They were walking around when I came there.

8 They were in tatters because they couldn't take anything from their homes.

9 Q. Tell me, do you know where Hotel Zagreb is?

10 A. Also in Lapad somewhere. I -- I think it's -- it's on the main

11 road, where the tram goes.

12 Q. Did you see refugees at that hotel too?

13 A. I don't think I ever passed that hotel.

14 Q. But as you were walking about town, was there a specific reason

15 why you didn't pass that particular hotel? After all, it's spectacularly

16 sited. It's nice to walk around.

17 A. Can you give me a hand with this, please. Where exactly is the

18 hotel?

19 Q. Can you please answer my question.

20 A. I don't know where the hotel is. I think it's on the main

21 promenade, where the tram used to pass.

22 Q. Do you perhaps know what there was at that hotel? You don't even

23 seem to know that it exists.

24 A. I heard about that hotel. I know that it existed but I don't know

25 what was there.

Page 3156

1 Q. As you walked around, as you walked from the Excelsior Hotel,

2 which is in the east, through the Old Town, through all the main streets

3 leading to the town's western section, through the Lapad Bay - you walked

4 on and on for kilometres - did you ever come across any persons wearing

5 uniforms, carrying weapons?

6 A. I only saw the regular police forces. I'm not sure why they were

7 there or in what capacity. It was some sort of a grey, a greyish uniform.

8 Q. Do you know where Vila Rasica is?

9 A. That's further up on that slope to the left as you head for Lapad,

10 or around there, I believe.

11 Q. Did you walk by that building?

12 A. No. This is not a place you'd pass on your way anywhere because

13 the road descends steeply from there and the house is further up the

14 slope. It was some sort of a youth association, I believe, earlier on.

15 Q. What about wartime? What was based at that building?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. What about the Belvedere Hotel? Were there refugees there too?

18 A. The Belvedere Hotel is a different story.

19 Q. Can you just please answer my question. Were there any refugees

20 at the Belvedere Hotel? It's a very simple question.

21 A. Well, the Belvedere Hotel had burned down and it wasn't possible

22 to put anyone up there, so I can't say yes or no. It simply wasn't like

23 that.

24 Q. When did the Belvedere Hotel burn down?

25 A. It burnt down because a gunboat had arrived one morning, a ship

Page 3157

1 with a gun mounted, and it came within a hundred metres from the hotel

2 itself, and it fired at all the hotel's windows, and it went on firing

3 until the whole thing burnt down. Therefore, all you can see today is the

4 skeleton of what used to be a hotel. Only the outer walls. So what this

5 shows is that anyone who had a weapon could fire at the hotel. They could

6 even have thrown stones at the hotel and shattered the windows. Only a

7 madman would have done something like that. The hotel burned down,

8 therefore no chance anyone could have been there. You know, people are

9 not birds; they can't live on walls.

10 Q. When did that happen?

11 A. Well, it's a bit rich of you to ask me about the dates. It was a

12 long time ago. I didn't keep track of the dates and hour -- and hours of

13 the day. It was back in 1991.

14 Q. Would you please be so kind as to tell me -- I'm not specifically

15 asking about the date but could you just give me the month; October,

16 November, December, early on in the month, late in the month, beginning of

17 1991 or 1992? Just roughly speaking.

18 A. The way I remember it, it was before the 6th of December. I was

19 watching from my window, and this gunboat was just firing away

20 mercilessly.

21 Q. Can you actually see the Hotel Belvedere from your window?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you see the surrounding area around the hotel?

24 A. Yes. I saw the boat arrive within a hundred metres. It was a

25 gunboat. I'm not sure, it had some letters and numbers on it. 134, I

Page 3158

1 believe. And then it started just firing away at the hotel.

2 Q. And there were refugees inside the hotel; right?

3 A. No. I didn't say that. The refugees fled west to the Babin Kuk

4 area and thereabouts. As far as I know, there were no refugees in the

5 hotel.

6 Q. So before the hotel was fired on, who had stayed there?

7 A. It's a hotel that was open for the whole summer just before in

8 1991. It was a five-star hotel, so it was quite a posh hotel, actually.

9 Q. So there were tourists there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then the hotel was fired at and the tourists left?

12 A. No, that's not how it was. When the autumn was under way, ships

13 arrived all around Dubrovnik at a mile or two outside Dubrovnik.

14 Warships, so obviously it was clear to everyone that they should just

15 leave.

16 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you give a statement to the investigators of this

17 Tribunal?

18 A. You mean those who came to Croatia?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did they caution you that you were supposed to tell the truth,

22 that you were supposed to tell everything you knew about what they were

23 asking you about?

24 A. It was a friendly interview. It wasn't necessary for anyone to

25 caution me about my duty to tell the truth. It's just that you want me to

Page 3159

1 say something different from what I'm saying now but there's no way I can

2 do that for you.

3 Q. So you gave that statement, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'll read out to you paragraph 16 of your statement now, where you

6 state the following: "By November 1991, the whole area of Dubrovnik was

7 occupied and hotels were full of refugees. Later on, the aggressors

8 (Serbs, Montenegrins, JNA) attacked these hotels as well. These hotels

9 are: Hotel Kompas, Excelsior, Belvedere, and Libertas."

10 Does this not seem to indicate that there were refugees at the

11 Belvedere Hotel too? Isn't that what you stated?

12 A. No. There were no refugees there, but there were refugees in all

13 these other hotels. I just listed several hotels like that. We were

14 talking about the summer, which is when I had to leave my yacht behind,

15 and I came there to talk to them. Perhaps my attitude was slightly naive

16 too.

17 So I referred to the Belvedere Hotel, but I don't think it has any

18 specific meaning in this context. I can specify now that there were no

19 refugees at the time at the Belvedere Hotel because it was impossible for

20 anyone to stay there.

21 Q. Well, why weren't refugees at the Belvedere Hotel? It was closest

22 to the Konavle area, it would have been only natural for the refugees to

23 go there and not any further off.

24 A. Well, I told you now that the hotel had burned down. It was the

25 closest hotel but there were boats outside the hotel. No one would have

Page 3160

1 been foolish to go there seeing that the boats were that close.

2 Q. I think my question to you is specific enough. By the time --

3 A. There were no refugees at the Belvedere Hotel, and that's my

4 answer to you.

5 Q. Tell me who was there at the Belvedere Hotel.

6 A. That's very far from where I live, about a kilometre. There was

7 no chance for anyone to walk that far. Just opposite the house there is a

8 bunker with a machine-gun. Whenever I walked down the street, someone was

9 firing at me. I had to crawl on all fours. There used to be Yugoslav

10 flag down there for a while, and even the Serbian flag. They often spoke

11 to us from up there. That's how close they were. We could actually hear

12 their voices. I don't know who specifically was there but it would have

13 been impossible for anyone to stay at the hotel since the hotel had burned

14 down, as I said.

15 Q. So you don't know who was at the hotel at the time.

16 A. I don't think there was anyone there.

17 Q. And you don't know when the hotel burned down specifically.

18 A. Sir, listen --

19 Q. Okay. Fair enough.

20 A. You're trying to wrong foot me all the time. I told you this was

21 probably before the 6th. It may even have been in November. I really

22 can't remember the specific date, but the way I remember it now --

23 Q. Reading further on in your statement, paragraph 16 also, at the

24 beginning of that paragraph - I'm not reading the whole thing again but I

25 believe my colleague Kaufman will stand up and object if I get anything

Page 3161

1 wrong - it says, "By November 1991..." and then whatever happened by

2 November 1991, and then it continued. "The Libertas Hotel was completely

3 destroyed and certain firemen were killed there." That's by November.

4 And then further on: "One day, a gunboat attacked the Belvedere Hotel and

5 opened fire on it, which proves that the Croatians had no weapons to

6 respond to these attacks."

7 A. Like I said awhile ago, the very same thing I said.

8 Q. So now, sir, please tell me, how is that proof that the Croats had

9 no weapons to respond to the attack? How can one logically arrive at this

10 conclusion?

11 A. Well, my conclusion was that the gunboat was so close that you

12 could have hit it with a glass if you threw a glass at it. So probably

13 someone would have fired at it if there had been any weapons to fire by.

14 So that was the logic that led me to assume that the Croats had no

15 weapons.

16 Q. Well, aren't you perhaps phrasing this in a way that's slightly

17 liberal or inaccurate?

18 A. Yes. Perhaps this is an example of liberal phrasing.

19 Q. Do you know where Srdj is?

20 A. Just behind me. Just behind where I live.

21 Q. Tell me, sir, on Srdj there is a very important monument of

22 culture, the Imperijal Fort, isn't there?

23 A. Yes, the Imperijal Fort, which had been built by Napoleon's

24 forces.

25 Q. This fort was a protected monument of culture, too, wasn't it?

Page 3162

1 A. It wasn't as important as the Old Town itself, but this building,

2 too, marked a time of aggression, when Napoleon and his forces attacked

3 the town.

4 Q. Prior to the war, was it used for cultural purposes?

5 A. Yes. Just next to the fortress there is a funicular which had

6 also been demolished. So before the war, we used to take this funicular

7 to go up the mountain, and at the fort there was a disco.

8 Q. Were there any concerts that were organised there, art

9 exhibitions?

10 A. There was a disco. It was a very popular haunt for the people of

11 Dubrovnik. It was a famous club. Just between the cable car and the

12 fortress, where the cross was.

13 Q. I'm asking you again, were there any art exhibition or concerts

14 being held at the Imperijal Fort?

15 A. Well, anything that happens in a disco. I'm not sure that can be

16 considered a concert. Not a concert of classical music. But there were

17 different things going on there, so there may as well have been concerts

18 too.

19 Q. At the Imperijal Fort, did you see the sign, the UNESCO sign

20 marking it off as a monument of culture, as world heritage at the time?

21 A. To the best of my recollection, not that I could see from

22 Dubrovnik.

23 Q. Why wasn't that particular monument of culture marked in a proper

24 way?

25 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, I object to that question. I'm not

Page 3163

1 sure this witness is qualified to comment on matters of legal import.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I withdraw the

3 question.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Sir, who was at Srdj at that time in October, November, and

7 December?

8 A. I didn't go up there myself so I can't say who was there.

9 Q. Was the disco open at that time?

10 A. No. No, because the cable car had been demolished, destroyed.

11 Q. Well, it was possible to go up there without the cable car, wasn't

12 it?

13 A. It would have been very difficult.

14 Q. Well, did people go up there to Srdj or not?

15 A. I couldn't see that from where I was, from where my flat is. From

16 inside Dubrovnik itself you can't see the path going up.

17 Q. How come you were weren't able to see it? You not only saw it,

18 you actually recorded it. In the footage you recorded, there are several

19 sequences showing the fort.

20 A. But from the town itself, you mean?

21 Q. Regardless.

22 A. From the town itself, but you can't see any people in the footage

23 that I took. I don't know that there were any people there. It just --

24 if I try to remember now.

25 Q. So tell me, sir, where is this bunker where the Serb flag was

Page 3164

1 displayed, the one that you saw?

2 A. If you provide a map, I'll mark it for you on a map.

3 Q. Can you describe the location, please.

4 A. There's the Excelsior Hotel, and then some ten metres further down

5 is the Lazarina Street, which I take whenever I go home; and in the same

6 direction on top of Mount Srdj there was a bunker, a Yugoslav flag for a

7 while, and then a Serb flag; and they were shouting down from the top of

8 the hill, "Ustasha, we're coming down. We're coming for you." It was

9 ridiculous and tragic at the same time.

10 Q. So who was up there? The aggressors, I assume.

11 A. Yes, the aggressors were at this location I've just described. I

12 think that was the furthest point they reached in the direction of the

13 fort itself.

14 Q. But why weren't they inside the fort, then? It was so

15 conveniently located after all; you could see the whole town from it. It

16 was empty. There was a disco there. Anyone would have been free to just

17 walk in and take the fort. Why weren't they there? Why didn't they move

18 in? Perhaps they were there but you don't know.

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Isn't this bunker where you saw those people with a Serbian flag

21 equally distant from your flat as the Imperijal Fort?

22 A. From that position, from my street I can't see the fort itself,

23 but this was exactly in my view. I was -- are you following what I'm

24 saying, sir?

25 I was humiliated there, totally humiliated, because I had to crawl

Page 3165

1 up the street. I had to crawl up the steps, and there were sniper bullets

2 flying around me. And it is by sheer chance that I'm alive here today.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Petrovic, please.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you know many people in Dubrovnik?

6 A. More or less all of us know each other, at least by sight, and we

7 greet each other. We always wish other people good morning or a good day.

8 Q. Did you contact many people as you were walking about town?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In those hard times, what did people talk about?

11 A. They were talking about where they could find an onion or a carrot

12 to cook some soup. They were wishing they could find a piece of bacon

13 because it was wintertime. All of that is probably meaningless to you but

14 it was of capital importance in Dubrovnik then in terms of survival.

15 Q. Those are not unimportant things to me. It is not meaningless,

16 but what I'm interested in is were you talking about this man with the

17 Serbian flag up there at the bunker? What is it that is preventing him

18 from coming down?

19 A. I'm going to digress now and give you an opinion of my own. For

20 example, I had a transistor radio, a transistor radio, and then I listened

21 to the Montenegrin radio stations. At a given point in time when

22 Dubrovnik was morally disarmed, when people had lost all hope, this

23 Montenegrin radio station was saying that in Dubrovnik there were 6.000

24 members of the National Guards Corps and Ustashas. I don't know how they

25 could say that. And then I realised that perhaps they were afraid or

Page 3166

1 perhaps somebody wouldn't let them do whatever, but at any rate, this is

2 what I heard with my very own ears. I heard other things too but this is

3 very important. That is very important in terms of why they did not come

4 in.

5 Q. So as for the members of the National Guards Corps and the

6 Croatian army, you only know about them from Radio Montenegro?

7 A. Exactly.

8 Q. You never heard about any such thing in the town of Dubrovnik from

9 this multitude of people you talked to? Didn't you ask anyone? "People,

10 is it possible that there are 6.000 Croatian soldiers here?" Were you

11 interested in checking this information out?

12 A. Honey, that is ridiculous. We were looking at bread. We were

13 discussing how much bread was sold that day. We were not talking about

14 army, the military, whatever. Come on.

15 Q. So you did not hear or see anyone?

16 A. No. I just heard this one from up there saying, "Ustashas, here

17 we come," and I don't really want to use the other words they used.

18 Q. Please, Mr. Jusic. Tell me, do you have any brothers or sisters?

19 A. I do. I do. Three brothers and three sisters.

20 Q. Tell me, please, what are your brothers' names?

21 A. Is this really important to you to enter my family matters?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Okay, I can tell you. One is Kemal, the oldest one. The other is

24 Ibrica, and the third one is Mujica.

25 Q. Tell me, please, are all of them law-abiding citizens, honest men?

Page 3167

1 A. I'm proud of them.

2 Q. Tell me, are you talking to all of them? Are you on speaking

3 terms with all of them?

4 A. Of course I am.

5 Q. Do you have normal contact with Ibrica, Kemal, Mujica?

6 A. Very much so. The other day we all had lunch together at my older

7 brother's place. He gathered us all about 15 days ago.

8 Q. Tell me, where did your brothers live in 1991?

9 A. Ibrica was on tour somewhere. In Zagreb, I believe. At any rate,

10 he was not in Dubrovnik. And the other two brothers were in Dubrovnik.

11 Q. Did Ibrica come to Dubrovnik during the war?

12 A. I did not see him. I heard that he came. I heard that he had a

13 charity concert.

14 Q. Tell me, where were Kemal and Mujica?

15 A. Look, they live on the other side of town. They both live in

16 Lapad, in Batala Street. So I didn't see them often.

17 Q. Tell me, what did Kemal and Mujica do during the war?

18 A. They were taking care of their children. One of them also had to

19 repair his house because a shell had hit it, and he had to cover it with

20 plastic sheets, whatever, and the other one was taking care of his

21 children. Apropos of Mujica, his wife is of the Orthodox religion and her

22 father held a high rank in the Yugoslav army. So I think that you're on

23 the wrong track here.

24 Q. Tell me, why do you think I'm on the wrong truck? In relation to

25 what?

Page 3168

1 A. Because you're trying to get something out of me. I don't know

2 how to put this. I don't know why we're discussing my brothers at all.

3 Q. Okay. Let's forget about all of this anyway.

4 Tell me, I did not understand one thing. So Kemal's house was hit

5 and Mujica was taking care of his children.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is the last name of Mujica's wife? What is the family that

8 she comes from?

9 A. You're asking me a lot now.

10 Q. I'm asking you because of this high-ranking officer of the JNA.

11 A. I mentioned this in passing. There is no special reason for it.

12 It's not that important. But I cannot remember now because this was his

13 second marriage -- I mean, it's not that it was, it still is.

14 Q. Did you have any contact with Kemal in October, November, December

15 1991?

16 A. As much as possible. Actually, the subjects discussed were, "What

17 are you eating? Have you got any canned food?" And so on.

18 Q. Did you have any contact about Mujica?

19 A. Very rarely because we could not get up there to Lapad. It was

20 risky. There were sirens all the time and we didn't know when there would

21 be shooting.

22 Q. When you went to Lapad, did you stop by to see Kemal and Mujica?

23 A. I did stop by to see Kemal, yes. I would do that. His house was

24 destroyed and then a neighbour let him use an apartment, so he lived there

25 for a few months.

Page 3169

1 Q. Did you stop by to see Mujica?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Why did you not go to see Mujica?

4 A. Can I put a question to you, the other way round? Why am I

5 sitting here? Let's turn the tables.

6 Q. Why did you not go to see Mujica?

7 A. Well, look, if you are going to see someone, you're supposed to

8 have been invited beforehand, at least that's part of the manners I was

9 taught. We could not see each other, we could not speak, so I didn't want

10 to barge into somebody's house.

11 Q. But it is a war. It was a war. He had young children. People

12 did not have enough to eat, so what happened to Mujica, your own brother?

13 A. Well, we'd speak on the telephone. He could not come to see me, I

14 could not come to see him in Lapad so it wasn't that there was no contact

15 between us.

16 Q. Did you ask Kemal about Mujica?

17 A. Nothing specific. Women, children. He'd go to meet a boat.

18 Friends would send him something. Look, you're trying to raise this all

19 up to a high level, and people were desperate to get something for their

20 children, at least, to try to obtain, say, gas, because there was no

21 electricity, and there was no water, and gas bottles arrived from

22 somewhere else and then they cost a fortune. You're asking me about high

23 politics, and we were dreaming about apples, carrots, a slice of bread.

24 Q. Was Mujica perhaps preparing the oil?

25 A. Sir, how can you tell me about all these things? I mentioned this

Page 3170

1 in connection with the city walls. Your Honour. Your Honour. Your

2 Honour, please.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I? May I address

5 you, please?

6 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would be a good idea if we just called a

7 halt now. I'm going to say a few words to Mr. Petrovic, and then after

8 the break, if you think you need to address me, yes, but you listen to

9 what happens now first.

10 Mr. Petrovic, I've allowed this cross-examination to go on for a

11 considerable time in the expectation that you would come to some matter

12 that really was important over each line that you've pursued. I haven't

13 yet found that you have done that. Certainly, for example, not about the

14 family of the witness. I mention that because we're now going to have a

15 break, and I hope that you will be able to focus your questions more

16 clearly on matters that are directly pertinent to the defence when we

17 return.

18 Now, there's something you would like to say before we break?

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your

20 Honour. I'm asking the distinguished gentleman about his brother Mujica

21 because of Mr. Mujica's role in everything that we are talking about, and

22 that is the very core of the matter, the very core of the Defence case in

23 relation to what was happening in Dubrovnik in 1991.

24 Your Honours, this was a member of the Croatian army. He took

25 part in many operations in the area of the town of Dubrovnik. This is a

Page 3171

1 man who took up arms near the Old Town of Dubrovnik itself. He gave a

2 statement to that effect to the investigators of this Tribunal, and as you

3 can see, the witness has been very evasive, and he has been trying to

4 dodge all questions in this respect.

5 Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you for that explanation, Mr. Petrovic.

7 As you will appreciate, the Chamber has no present knowledge of that and

8 no --

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

10 JUDGE PARKER: -- emerged to us from what you were questioning.

11 So if there is a particular point to make about the brother, I'd suggest

12 you get to it and make the point when we resume.

13 We will now have a 20-minute break.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I think in view of what happened just before the

18 break, we might proceed with questioning. Were you content that we were

19 alert to your concern, Mr. Jusic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not concerned at all. The only

21 thing I failed to comprehend -- of course, this is a very likable manner

22 in which Mr. Petrovic is pursuing his line of questioning, always

23 reverting to some answer that I had already provided, but when he refers

24 to it, he always adds something to it in order to wrong foot me, so that

25 this would be reflected in the transcript. So I will kindly ask him not

Page 3172

1 to revert to questions that I've already given answers to.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, and we are conscious of those

3 matters, and we are alert to them as well.

4 Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Jusic, can we go on?

7 A. By all means.

8 Q. You saw your brother for the last time a couple of days ago at the

9 place of your oldest brother Kemal?

10 A. We often met.

11 Q. Did you tell your brothers where you were going and where you had

12 been a couple of days before that?

13 A. This was in all the Croatian papers, in fact, that I was going to

14 The Hague to testify.

15 Q. Did you talk about this with Mujica as well?

16 A. I did not see him.

17 Q. If I'm not wrong, before the break you told us that you had seen

18 all of your brothers immediately prior to your departure for The Hague,

19 including Kemal.

20 A. We were together about a month ago, but not immediately prior to

21 my departure, no.

22 Q. And a month ago did you tell Mujica that you were going to The

23 Hague?

24 A. He could have read it in the papers. There was no need for me to

25 specifically talk about it, because at that time I hadn't been aware of

Page 3173

1 this other summons. The dates hadn't been fixed yet. I was not sure when

2 I would be going.

3 Q. Did Mujica ever tell you that he had given a statement for the

4 OTP?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Did you tell him that you had talked with a gentleman from the

7 Prosecutor's office?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Jusic, why are you hiding from this Trial

10 Chamber the fact that your brother was a member of the Croatian army?

11 A. This is the first time I hear about it, from you. If he was a

12 member, then I really have only admiration for him for defending his

13 children and his homeland, and I am even more proud of him as of this

14 moment when you said it.

15 Q. And tell me, for how long was he a member of the Croatian army?

16 A. You know what? It would be nice if you call him --

17 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, the witness has already said that he

18 didn't know his brother was a member of the Croatian army until he

19 appeared in The Hague. So for Mr. Petrovic to then go and ask the witness

20 for how long was he a member of the Croatian army seems to be not a very

21 logical question.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I appreciate that, Mr. Kaufman, but I think we can

23 see that Mr. Jusic is well capable of taking care of those matters.

24 Otherwise, we would have interfered earlier and ensured there was no

25 misleading.

Page 3174

1 But you will note the point again, Mr. Petrovic. It's a further

2 example of the style of questioning about which Mr. Jusic is validly

3 complaining.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So you don't know?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Do you know when the cars on the parking lot behind the Old Town

8 were set on fire in Dubrovnik?

9 A. It was a shell which landed, I believe, on the 6th, and this is a

10 place which can be seen from my house.

11 Q. And do you know --

12 A. And there were other cars that were set on fire. In Ploce, in

13 other places. And the windows of most had been shattered. And they were

14 set on fire. I know that a neighbour of mine had a Chrysler, and he took

15 it to a parking lot somewhere near the town and a shell landed directly

16 under his car that was at the Ploce Gate.

17 Q. Do you know where the parking lot next to the Old Town ramparts

18 is?

19 A. I do know. I was born there. There was a small soccer field

20 there, and I used to play there. I know exactly where it is.

21 Q. So this parking lot is directly abutting the northern wall?

22 A. Next to the door which we call Buza.

23 Q. Do you know that your brother and his unit opened fire on the 6th

24 of December from that parking lot?

25 A. I don't know, but every honour to him if he did.

Page 3175

1 Q. Do you know that your brother actually caused the -- these cars to

2 be set on fire by consciously provoking units of the JNA to open fire at

3 this parking lot where he was on the 6th of December?

4 A. Sir, I think that's pure fabrication.

5 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, I would at this moment request perhaps

6 Mr. Petrovic, so I don't accuse him of misleading the witness with an

7 incorrect reference to Mr. Mujic -- Jusic's statement, for him to refer me

8 to which part of Mujica Jusic's statement he's putting to the witness. I

9 have in front of me page 6 of that statement and I understand the

10 positioning of Mr. Mujica Jusic on that date to be very different.

11 Perhaps Mr. Petrovic could assist me.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

13 Q. Do you know that on the 12th of October 1991, your brother --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, I'm waiting for an answer or a

15 submission before you go on with questioning. Are you putting to this

16 witness something from the statement of his brother?

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am, Your Honour. Yes.

18 Well, I meant to start at the beginning of that statement and then

19 eventually come to this part which concerns my colleague.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you could just give a page reference and

21 that will enable him to look at it while you do that.

22 MR. KAUFMAN: If I may be specific, Your Honours, Mr. Petrovic put

23 a question with reference to the 6th of December. That would be the

24 relevant part I'm looking for, the positioning of Mr. Mujica Jusic that

25 provoked the fire on the 6th of December, as Mr. Petrovic put the question

Page 3176

1 to the witness.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

3 I would ask to go through the statement, and this will be clarified, and

4 in the process you will also be familiarised with the content of the

5 statement, and all these things will be much clearer. I did ask a

6 question with relation to the 6th of December because the witness, in his

7 answer, implied something of the kind, but of course I shall examine the

8 statement thoroughly if you so permit.

9 MR. KAUFMAN: Well, Your Honours, if I may be able to reply. I

10 may be able to assist Mr. Petrovic in this matter because I have a

11 completely different positioning from Mr. Mujica Jusic according to his

12 statement on the 6th of December, to be found in page 6 in the third

13 paragraph from the bottom, for Mr. Petrovic's assistance. He said that he

14 was positioned at Solitudo on the Babin Kuk peninsula, which is nowhere

15 near the parking lot of the Old Town, at least from my knowledge of the

16 geography of the area.

17 Now -- assuming that Mr. Petrovic is aware of that --

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

19 MR. KAUFMAN: -- I would assume that he would want to correctly

20 put matters to the witness, and furthermore, if he wished to pursue this

21 matter further, to substantiate it.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] But of course, Your Honour, in

23 order to deal with all these quandaries, I will start at the beginning, by

24 your leave.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. Can I indicate that at

Page 3177

1 the moment, the position has been put clearly against you that you had

2 quite misunderstood the statement of the witness's brother and had wrongly

3 put a location with respect to the 6th of December. If you understand

4 that, then we will, of course, allow you to deal with the statement with a

5 view, you say, to showing on what basis you justify your questioning.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, gladly. The

7 reason why the Defence will be asking questions in conformity with the

8 statement is the right of the Defence in accordance with Rule 92(H)(i) to

9 present to the witness elements which form the Defence case and for the

10 witness to state his view in regard to such elements which constitute the

11 Defence case. This is the grounds upon which we are asking to pursue this

12 exercise, but if this Chamber deems it necessary, I can elaborate this at

13 some length.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Let me say, Mr. Petrovic, we certainly appreciate

15 that and applaud that you should do that. The apparent basis upon which

16 you put the question to which Mr. Kaufman objected was a statement of the

17 brother of the witness, and Mr. Kaufman has raised a concern that you have

18 misunderstood that statement and have, therefore, put a question to the

19 witness which is not in accordance with the statement.

20 Quite separately from the statement of the witness, of the

21 witness's brother, it may be the Defence case that his brother was doing

22 certain things on the 6th of December. If it is within the knowledge or

23 control of the witness, he may properly be questioned by you putting your

24 Defence case to him about that point, but at the moment, it's not apparent

25 on what basis this witness would have had knowledge or control of his

Page 3178

1 brother's conduct on the 6th of December or any other day.

2 Now, I mention those things so that you can keep them in your mind

3 as you frame your questions and pursue your line of cross-examination.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what is the grounds

5 for my further answers? The grounds is constituted by the fact that the

6 witness repeatedly said that he moved about town, that he had talked to a

7 multitude of people in town, that during these months he kept in touch

8 with his brothers, with both of his brothers, that they talked on the

9 telephone, and that it is only reasonable to assume that this witness, if

10 he knows what was happening to so many other people in the city, also

11 knows what was happening to his own brother Djurmane [phoen]. So this is

12 the basis, Your Honour, for my questions. He's speaking about events.

13 He's familiar with events and people, and it is fully to be expected, Your

14 Honour, that naturally he is perfectly aware of where his younger brother

15 is and what he is doing. So that all this, with the presentation of our

16 case, also has a strong dose of testing the credibility of this witness

17 who obviously does not at all wish to speak about his brother and

18 generally about the participation and engagement of the Croatian army in

19 the period under review, and he is ignoring this, and that is the key to

20 the credibility of this witness, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It will be a matter for future evidence what is the

22 role of his brother and of the Croatian army, and of course there has been

23 some evidence with respect to that. You certainly, Mr. Petrovic, may be

24 putting your case about that, but it has to be relevant to this witness in

25 some way.

Page 3179

1 Now, if you want to put to him that he knows what his brother was

2 doing but won't discuss it, you can put it, but that will take only a few

3 moments. So I leave it to you now.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Do you know, Mr. Jusic, that on the 12th of October, 1991, your

6 brother joined the Defence of the city of Dubrovnik?

7 A. Sir, in this first part, some 20 minutes ago, I told you that I

8 hadn't at all seen my brother. I didn't at all see him during the war, so

9 that I think that you are asking your question of the wrong party. I told

10 you decidedly that I moved within the city of Dubrovnik walls and that

11 there were no events of this kind or any similar events, so that this is

12 the wrong address that you're addressing this question to. I really don't

13 know anything about it.

14 Q. Then please let your answer be, "I don't know."

15 A. Okay. All right.

16 Q. Is it not the case that your brother was deployed in the area of

17 the village of Bosanka?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Is it true that your brother was located throughout this period in

20 the office building of the INA with other members of the Croatian army?

21 A. This begs the question of whether you know where the INA building

22 is.

23 Q. Will you tell me, please, do you know this or do you not know

24 this?

25 A. This is crazy. The INA building is quite the opposite side of the

Page 3180

1 city, where the insurance building is. As to your question, I don't know,

2 but your question is really not a proper one.

3 Q. Well, I'll read this out for you. On page 3, the first, second,

4 third -- fourth paragraph, where it is written the following. This is the

5 statement of Mujica Jusic, father Arif, of the 27th and 31st of May, 2001.

6 And it reads: "[In English] The next day we moved to a building that is

7 100 metres from the police headquarters (Today the building is the INA

8 building.) That building became our base for 22 days. We slept there in

9 the offices."

10 [Interpretation] Do you know anything about this?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. In the next paragraph, this is what your brother had to say: [In

13 English] "Several days later my unit consisting of myself and about four

14 other guys was issued with a [Broing] Browning 12.7-millimetres heavy

15 machine-gun."

16 [Interpretation] Do you know that your brother was issued with a

17 heavy machine-gun of the Browning type throughout October, November,

18 December 1991?

19 A. I neither know what a Browning or Broing is, nor do I know of

20 that particular bit of information. I don't know.

21 Q. In the penultimate paragraph on the same page, page 3, he says:

22 "[In English] The first war action that we were involved in whilst

23 operating out of our base came only after the JNA had occupied Bosanka,

24 Strincera, Zarkovica, and Golubov Kamen."

25 [Interpretation] Do you know anything about this?

Page 3181

1 A. You know what, sir, you know pitting these four or five soldiers

2 again the entire Yugoslav army, that's really little. If they defended

3 the hometown and the children, I take my hat off to them, and it really

4 only increases my pride in them and my brother.

5 Q. On page 4 of your brother's statement: "[In English] We never

6 really shot at a specific target, we just knew that the JNA were up the

7 hill and we fired in their general direction. We would expand a complete

8 charger then drive as fast as possible from the site where which we had

9 fired. This was vital, as the JNA would return fire, with mortars,

10 immediately at our firing position."

11 [Interpretation] Is it not the case that the Croatian army was

12 resorting to these particular tactics?

13 A. Honey, I saw no soldiers of any kind. It is a good tactic now

14 that I think about it. It is a sheer partisan tactic, the kind we were

15 taught about in our school.

16 Q. Well, was it effective? Did it give results, this tactic?

17 A. Well, you said yourself they were opening fire from this heavy

18 machine-gun and the mortars responded, and I, even though an amateur, know

19 that there is a huge difference between the two.

20 Q. Next paragraph: "[In English] The positions that we fired from

21 varied greatly. We had a practice of moving about two kilometres between

22 firing points to confuse the JNA so they couldn't locate us or know

23 precisely what our strength was."

24 [Interpretation] Is this also an element of this good tactic of

25 the Croatian army?

Page 3182

1 A. This is horrendous. One should shoot a movie about this. You

2 just have five guys pitted against the entire Yugoslav army. I know

3 nothing about it, in fact.

4 Q. But if this is true, what your brother said to the investigators

5 of the OTP, does it not mean that your brother and the five of them are

6 heroes who defended, managed to defend Dubrovnik?

7 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honour, I object to that question. Once again

8 I understand Mr. Petrovic's need to put the statement to the witness, of

9 course if he intends to substantiate it by bringing Defence evidence in

10 due course, but bearing in mind the witness's response to the first

11 question in this line of questioning, namely that he didn't know that his

12 brother was in the Croatian defence force of any nature whatsoever, it is

13 a bit farfetched to ask the witness himself to speculate on the

14 consequences of questions that Mr. Petrovic is putting to him, namely

15 reading out elements of his brother's statement.

16 JUDGE PARKER: I will allow this question, Mr. Kaufman. He is not

17 necessarily bound by an answer, as you would understand, and what he is

18 raising here is whether or not his brother was in fact a hero of the

19 Croatian army, and I think that is a matter that is of concern to the

20 Defence and relevant to the trial and ought to be allowed to be put.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Can I please have an answer?

23 A. Well, to the best of my knowledge, my brother was not decorated

24 for his valour, but in my eyes he is a hero now that you have given me

25 this report of yours.

Page 3183

1 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Jusic, that this is the first time you hear

2 about this, from me, 13 years later? Is it only now that you found out

3 your brother is a hero?

4 A. In my eyes, yes.

5 Q. I'm the first person you found out about this from?

6 A. Yes. This is the first time I hear about this.

7 Q. All right. Further on in your brother's statement, it says: "[In

8 English] Car park alongside the northern wall of the Old Town."

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are clarifying the

10 point that was a problem awhile ago.

11 "[In English] During the first week of November 1991 we were sent

12 to this location to shoot at the JNA who had been sighted next to the

13 cross on Srdj. This was the same day that Hotel Imperijal was destroyed.

14 This was the first time we used our Browning machine-gun."

15 [Interpretation] In the next paragraph, your brother says: "[In

16 English] We went from our base at INA down Ante Starcevic Street through

17 Pile bus station and around to the northern wall of the Old Town. On

18 arriving at this location we stopped at the entrance to the parking area

19 alongside the city walls. At this the JNA were already shelling the area.

20 I think the JNA may have seen us approaching as we were exposed as we

21 drove down Ante Starcevic Street."

22 [Interpretation] Do you know anything about this particular

23 incident?

24 A. I don't. But really, you expect people to take their pants off,

25 to put it in vulgar terms now, and to wait for the town to be razed.

Page 3184

1 Well, good for them that they were engaged in this defence. I would have

2 been engaged in the defence too if I had something in my hands. What

3 happened was shameful. This client who you are defending here so nicely -

4 and it's a good thing you're doing so - he forced me to sleep in a small

5 hallway for a year and a half like a mouse in a hole because of your

6 mortar shells and other shells. Talk about that for a while. That is

7 shameful.

8 I feel sorry for the gentleman, too. It's a tragedy. It's a

9 shameful thing. But this shouldn't have happened at all. We shouldn't

10 have been here at all. We could have been sitting in Dubrovnik or in

11 Belgrade and living a peaceful life.

12 Q. Let us proceed, Mr. Jusic. On page 5, paragraph 1 -- or, rather,

13 the last sentence on page 4: "[In English] We drove the truck forwards

14 about 30 metres or so, and one of our men (Nenad Vrankovic - now deceased)

15 fired a short burst of fire from our machine-gun in the general direction

16 of the JNA. We could not see anyone to shoot at, but we were ordered (via

17 the radio) to open fire into the area immediately below the cross."

18 [Interpretation] Did your brother's fire perhaps damage the cross?

19 A. No. That was impossible. It was hit by a gunboat from the sea.

20 The shooting went on for days, and as a matter of fact, they said later

21 that it was a question of prestige which particular gunboat would destroy

22 the cross. And these were enormous shells. I saw it on film later.

23 I told you awhile ago that up there, there was no -- there were no

24 JNA troops. I said that very specifically up there. There were no JNA

25 troops by the cross, and it's about 500 metres away.

Page 3185

1 Q. Do you see any reason why your brother along with --

2 MR. KAUFMAN: I'd ask the answer to be completed, if possible.

3 There was an answer that was interrupted.

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect, I think it

5 was finished.

6 Q. But if not, please go ahead.

7 A. I think I said everything I wanted to say, but I would like the

8 transcript to reflect all of it, because it is nuances that are important.

9 Q. Do you know where Montovjerna is?

10 A. I do. Montovjerna the right accent.

11 Q. I apologise because of my accent. Where is that?

12 A. That is on a hillock facing Gruz. Gruz is to the right, Lapad is

13 to the left, and Montovjerna is between the two roads.

14 Q. So on page 5, Montovjerna is the heading. Did I pronounce it

15 right now?

16 A. Bravo.

17 Q. "[In English] A couple of days after the event described above, we

18 were told to spend the night up in the Montovjerna part of town. I do not

19 know why we were sent there. We did as we were told but did not fire our

20 weapon and did not come under the fire from the JNA. This was the only

21 occasion that we were at this position."

22 [Interpretation] In your walks around town or towards Lapad or

23 perhaps when you went to the Libertas Hotel, did you go through that part

24 of town which is called Montovjerna?

25 A. There is no reason for that. That is a bit further up and roads

Page 3186

1 go left and right.

2 Q. Did you know that there were some troops there or did you not know

3 about that?

4 A. I did not know about that.

5 Q. The same page: "[In English] Solitudo area of Babin Kuk

6 peninsula. We were then sent here to provide cover fire for our men on

7 the front line at Sustjepan."

8 [Interpretation] Then your brother says that there was a bunker

9 there, and so on and so forth.

10 And then he says: "[In English] I think we took up this position

11 around 20th November 1991, and we remained in this position up until May

12 1992."

13 [Interpretation] Tell me, please, what is in the Solitudo area in

14 Babin Kuk?

15 A. Vilas. That is also where the yachting club is called Orsan, and

16 from that side, from the side of Solitudo, you can't really see Sustjepan

17 because it's behind the hill, but that's what you said.

18 Q. How far could one go through Dubrovnik? Was Sustjepan the western

19 border, as far as one could go?

20 A. It was not possible to go there and there was no reason to go

21 there. This is simply the road to Mokosica and out of Dubrovnik. As far

22 as we know, on the other side of the river there were JNA positions. They

23 were shooting from there, and they killed quite a few people.

24 Q. Please let us move on to page 6 now of Mr. Mujica Jusic's

25 statement: "[In English] I am aware that in addition to the Browning

Page 3187

1 heavy machine-gun operated by my unit there were a number of other heavier

2 weapons operated by the forces defending the city of Dubrovnik (during the

3 period October to December 1991.) These weapons and their locations are

4 as follows:

5 "M20-1, 20-millimetre anti-aircraft cannon mounted on a truck.

6 The M20-1 cannon was fitted with a box or magazine containing about 25

7 rounds. I can't recall who was in charge of operating this weapon. The

8 unit was based in a building called Castle Pucic on Ante Starcevic Street

9 just below the old hospital. I know that they were based there as

10 sometimes we would meet up and they told us where they were based. I also

11 recall that I heard of their location over our Motorola radios."

12 [Interpretation] Did you see this three-barrelled gun that your

13 brother is talking about?

14 A. Sir, it is at the address that you mentioned. That is where the

15 Dubrovnik Symphony Orchestra is. I was not there every day but I was

16 there at least once a week. I had rehearsals, and there was no gun there,

17 not one that I saw, at any rate. No markings, no signs, no nothing. This

18 is a beautiful Renaissance garden with palm trees and pine trees. And the

19 door is a very narrow one. It is impossible to go through it. Perhaps

20 only a very a small car could.

21 Q. Did you see this three-barrelled gun that your brother refers to

22 anywhere else in the street?

23 A. Debris is the only thing that could be seen in the streets and

24 also the Imperijal Hotel burned down, and debris, burned trees, bricks, in

25 the road. I cannot answer anything by way of what you're looking at.

Page 3188

1 Q. "[In English] M20-3, 20-millimetre anti-aircraft weapon, mounted

2 on a truck. This was commanded by Milan Jejina. This weapon, with a

3 maximum effective range around 500 to 1.600 metres was much more powerful

4 than the M20-1 20-millimetres."

5 [Interpretation] Let us move on as fast as possible. You probably

6 didn't see these weapons either.

7 A. I did not, but there is an answer I simply have to give you at

8 this point. Dubrovnik is by the sea and Srdj is at least two kilometres

9 up. So they could not do any shooting at all. I mean, even if they were

10 shooting, it had no effect whatsoever. They were not like Sarajevo, in a

11 valley. So it is impossible for them to have the proper kind of range.

12 I'm not very knowledgeable about weapons, but this must be two kilometres

13 away, and Zarkovica is even three kilometres away, so the weapons couldn't

14 reach that far.

15 Q. So even if they were shooting, it was to no avail.

16 A. Exactly.

17 Q. But you certainly didn't see them shooting or hear them shooting.

18 A. I didn't see them or hear them shooting.

19 Q. In paragraph 3, your brother says: "[In English] Mortars

20 stationed at Babin Kuk. I do not know their calibre. The commander of

21 this unit was ex-JNA officer named Bato Kovac."

22 [Interpretation] Are there hotels there around the locality that

23 your brother refers to?

24 A. Babin Kuk?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 3189

1 A. Yes, there are hotels there.

2 Q. Are these hotels where refugees were put up?

3 A. Yes. Argos, Minceta, Dubrovnik President, Neptun. These are the

4 names of the hotels that were full of refugees.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Paragraph 4: "[In English] Mortars stationed

6 at Bogisica Park. I do not know their calibre. The crew operating these

7 weapons would leave the weapons there but return every now and then to

8 fire them."

9 [Interpretation] Where is the Bogisica Park?

10 A. Perhaps we call it a different way. Perhaps we use a different

11 name for it. Is it Gradac, perhaps? Is that the park you're referring

12 to? I don't know exactly.

13 Q. I simply cannot believe that you as a native of Dubrovnik confuse

14 Bogisica Park and Gradac Park.

15 A. It's not that I'm confusing things, but quite a few addresses

16 changed after the war. I know who Bogisic is, but I don't know exactly at

17 this time where the Bogisic Park is.

18 Q. Have you heard of it?

19 A. Of course I've heard of Bogisic. We have some popular names for

20 certain localities in Dubrovnik, so perhaps that's the point.

21 Q. Your brother refers to it as Bogisic Park.

22 A. Well, perhaps that's the official name but the people call it

23 differently.

24 Q. Do you know where the Anica Boskovic Street is?

25 A. I don't know exactly. I don't think it's in town, though. It's

Page 3190

1 not within the Old City walls, no.

2 Q. Do you know where the Imperijal Hotel is?

3 A. I know exactly. Uz Vrtove is the name of the street behind the

4 Imperijal Hotel.

5 Q. Would you please be so kind as to tell the Trial Chamber what the

6 name of the park right behind the Imperijal Hotel is.

7 A. Behind the Imperijal Hotel? We call that Ilijina Glavica.

8 Q. Any other names?

9 A. Ilijina Glavica.

10 Q. Is that what we're talking about right now?

11 A. I don't know whether that's the Bogisic Park, but we've called it,

12 from as far back as I can remember, Ilijina Glavica.

13 Q. Tell me something; how far away is Ilijina Glavica from Pile, from

14 the Old Town?

15 A. About a kilometre and a half, two at the most.

16 Q. A kilometre and a half?

17 A. The streets are winding, so it's hard for me to tell as the crow

18 flies. If we're talking about the same place when we talk about Ilijina

19 Glavica.

20 Q. We are talking about the park behind the Imperijal Hotel.

21 A. Behind the hotel, further up, we call that Ilijina Glavica.

22 Q. Is Ilijina Glavica farther away from Lapad -- farther away than

23 Lapad?

24 A. It is much closer than Lapad.

25 Q. A short while ago you said to us that from your house there was

Page 3191

1 two kilometres to Lapad.

2 A. Because that is a straight road that goes to Lapad, whereas I told

3 you that the streets going to Ilijina Glavica are very winding streets, so

4 it's hard for me to tell exactly.

5 Q. Tell me, how much is it as the crow flies?

6 A. Well, perhaps 700 metres. Perhaps.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Will the witness please be shown

8 Exhibit D31.

9 Q. Please look at this photograph and tell me, behind the Minceta,

10 the points that you can see behind the Minceta, is this what you're

11 referring to as Ilijina Glavica?

12 A. It may be, may be. It is not right behind the Minceta. It's a

13 long way from the Minceta.

14 Q. Thank you. We no longer need this photograph.

15 A. We call this Ilijina Glavica.

16 Q. Under item 5 -- but before that, please tell me, because there was

17 some confusion between Bogisica Park and Gradac and Ilijina Glavica.

18 Where is the Gradac Park?

19 A. It is behind the radio station, behind the university centre which

20 was burnt to the ground. It is right behind the Lovrijenac Fort, some 100

21 or 200 metres. It is on the seaside. The nun's cloister is there, a

22 nunnery, then there is a hospital, an old hospital there, and the Libertas

23 Hotel.

24 Q. How far is Gradac Park from, for instance, the Pile Gates or all

25 the Bokar Gate or --

Page 3192

1 A. Bokara. Well, it is about 700 metres away. One needs to go into

2 the centre and then to the left and you immediately reach it.

3 Q. And as the crow flies?

4 A. Well, you take the road to Pile and just turn left and you are

5 already at Gradac.

6 Q. Where is Gospino Polje?

7 A. Gospino Polje is in the valley just under the Hotel Libertas.

8 Q. How far from the Libertas Hotel?

9 A. A hundred or 200 metres.

10 Q. And under item 5 on page 6, your brother says: "[In English] A

11 cannon (I do not know not the type) located in Gospino Polje. This cannon

12 was operated by a guy called Jaksa (I do not know his other name). The

13 targeting device on this cannon did not work and many people talked about

14 the lack of accuracy of this weapon. To the best of my knowledge, he did

15 not use this cannon until 6th December when he was tasked to help defend

16 Srdj, but it was well known that some of his explosives landed long and

17 others short of the target."

18 [Interpretation] Have you heard about this cannon?

19 A. This should have been a famous cannon, but I didn't hear about it.

20 But let me just tell you this: Dubrovnik was surrounded, blockaded from

21 air, from land, by planes, and from ships. When this official ship sailed

22 out from Dubrovnik, the women and children who were allowed to leave

23 Dubrovnik, it was checked -- intercepted and checked by the JNA in the

24 channel and inspected. So I'm telling you this because there was no route

25 through which weaponry could have entered Dubrovnik.

Page 3193

1 Q. Are you asserting that Dubrovnik was not supplied with arms either

2 by sea or land routes prior to October?

3 A. It certainly could not have been supplied by land. And as for the

4 sea routes, I do know that all the ships were inspected and in fact some

5 were taken to Zelenika in Montenegro for such searches. So I believe that

6 it stands to reason that this was not possible.

7 Q. Your brother continues: "[In English] With reference to the

8 mortars described above, I must add that prior to the 26th of November,

9 1991, these mortars were rarely used.

10 "On 6 December 1991 ... the JNA launched their largest attack on

11 the city of Dubrovnik. The attack started about 5.00 a.m. At this time

12 our Browning machine-gun was stationed at Solitudo on the Babin Kuk

13 peninsula ... We had spent the previous night in the house --"

14 MR. KAUFMAN: I would object there. There was, in my submission,

15 a further element of that sentence, contained in brackets, that

16 Mr. Petrovic decided not to read out because it inclines us to believe

17 that there's a reference to the earlier use of the same sentence. If I

18 could read the seen answer as it appears in my copy: "At this time our

19 Browning machine-gun was stationed at Solitudo on the Babin Kuk peninsula

20 (as described above)." "As described above" was the reference to the fact

21 that the arm placed at Solitudo on the Babin Kuk peninsula was engaging

22 Sustjepan.

23 Your Honours, once again I have made my objection known to this

24 line of questioning, bearing in mind that the witness has stated right at

25 the start that he is not aware of the fact that his brother was a member

Page 3194

1 of the Croatian defence forces, and I do hope that, bearing in mind this

2 objection, if this line of questioning is to continue, that Mr. Petrovic,

3 in due course, will be calling someone to substantiate these matters.

4 JUDGE PARKER: That is one of the bases upon which the questioning

5 is being allowed to continue, Mr. Kaufman, and you have now got on record

6 the concern that you were raising before the break as to what was actually

7 said by the witness's brother in his statement.

8 So if you'd carry on now, Mr. Petrovic.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. "[In English] We had spent the previous night in the house at that

11 location. When the attack started, we went from the house to our weapon.

12 "The first thing we noticed was the JNA tank moving from

13 Strincera towards the Imperijal Fortress at the top of Srdj.

14 "Looking towards Gruz port I saw a Greek boat that had brought

15 humanitarian supplies hit by a JNA shell. The boat was damaged but managed

16 to make its way out of the port area and out to sea. Many boats in the

17 port were hit and sunk that day.

18 "About 20 people, mostly civilians, were killed by the JNA

19 shelling on that day. The JNA opened fire from many different directions,

20 and their shells fell everywhere, on the Old Town, throughout the

21 remainder of the city and on the Lapad and Babin Kuk peninsulas.

22 "We monitored the course of the Croatian response to the JNA by

23 listening to our Motorola radio. We heard one of the commanders (I cannot

24 recall who that was) give the order for our mortar units to start shelling

25 Srdj. When I heard that order, I knew things must have been getting bad

Page 3195

1 for our men in Srdj Fort."

2 [Interpretation] Do you wish me to read this through, Mr. Kaufman?

3 Of course I'm prepared to do so, but there is a lot of it left.

4 MR. KAUFMAN: Well, I can do it in re-examination, but perhaps it

5 would be helpful, Mr. Petrovic, if you could read the next sentence. It

6 is quite appropriate.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. "[In English] My unit did not fire any shots that day and we

9 reminded [sic] in our position at Solitudo."

10 MR. KAUFMAN: That's "remained."

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you believe this is sufficient for a correct presentation? Did

13 you hear, Mr. Jusic, these mortars of the Croatian army, according to the

14 words of your brother, were issued orders already early that morning to

15 open fire at JNA position?

16 A. I really admire you, sir. I have admiration for you because

17 several times you referred to the statement of my brother, and you said

18 that he was alone with either four or five men with him. And as you go

19 along you keep increasing the number eventually until it becomes a whole

20 army. Is it not disgraceful? Is it not disgraceful for you to disgrace

21 your own army when you had such a strong army armed to the teeth which was

22 opposed by four or five lads, and now your are embellishing and

23 embellishing your story until their number grows to hundreds and so on and

24 so forth. You said before yourself there were just four or five lads.

25 Having said this, I don't know anything about it, but this is just

Page 3196

1 a statement I have to make. Please do not burden me with these

2 considerations. What army are we talking about? I saw no army.

3 Q. Mr. Jusic, I believe that you have understood the fact that I am

4 not doing the embellishing, it is your brother who you said was a decent

5 man, a serious man of integrity who gave this statement to the same

6 Prosecutor's office to which you have given your statement. This is what

7 he said.

8 A. But he said there were four of them and you are building a whole

9 army out of it, adding the zeros as you go along.

10 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, I see that Mr. Jusic is defending

11 himself very well on the witness stand, but once again I'd like to remind

12 Mr. Petrovic there is no need to go into the integrity and decency of his

13 brother, or at least put it to this witness.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Kaufman.

15 Mr. Petrovic, I am putting a different point, and that is that I

16 think that you are -- have covered with extreme thoroughness this area but

17 at a considerable cost of time, and I would encourage you now to move on.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

20 patience. I believe that you are satisfied with how important it was for

21 me to present what I did. I only have another question in this particular

22 connection and then I'll move on.

23 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you hear about the 163rd Brigade of the Croatian

24 army?

25 A. Are you saying that perhaps there were 162 brigades? I never

Page 3197

1 heard of it. And if there was a 163rd, there must have been the 1st, 2nd,

2 and so on brigade, and I wouldn't have missed that.

3 Q. Was there a Croatian army at all in the period that we are

4 referring to, which is the fall of 1991?

5 A. As I heard, there was an army in Vukovar, in Slavonia, in Split

6 when the destroyers started opening fire at Split. It was a nascent army

7 arising as a liberation, as a defence movement. But concretely speaking,

8 I have no idea.

9 Q. What was your brother, your brother Djurmane Mujica, what is he by

10 profession?

11 A. He was an excellent drummer, drummer in a band, and he played for

12 a long time at these hotels, at precisely these hotels that your people

13 demolished.

14 Q. Can I ask you kindly if I do my best to appreciate you, for you to

15 show equal respect for me. When you say "your people," do you make a

16 distinction, and if you do, please do make a distinction and treat the

17 Defence in a courteous way, the way you treat the other parties and the

18 Trial Chamber.

19 A. This is a tone that you imposed, sir. Actually, I was just giving

20 you a taste of your own medicine. I ask you to respect me and my brother

21 and countless time I responded I don't know, I don't know, I don't know,

22 and I also said that if my brother indeed did what you say he did, that I

23 take my hat off to him as a defender of Dubrovnik.

24 Q. Did you know -- you didn't know that your brother was defender of

25 Dubrovnik. Did you know anyone, anyone else who was?

Page 3198

1 A. Yes. I knew a lad. He was a really likable chap. His name was

2 Mario Peci and he had a disco club at Lazarina. He was killed at Bosanka

3 during the first days. But he was not in uniform. He was wearing a

4 tracksuit and tennis shoes. And up there he was killed and another guy,

5 another lad by the name of Hamdija.

6 Q. And what were they doing on Bosanka?

7 A. This was an outing locality, the Bosanka site.

8 Q. You said this is -- this is where you picnicked. At the risk of

9 being cynical, were they there for an outing, for a picnic, or on any

10 other business?

11 A. The only information I gave you was that they got killed there by

12 the JNA and that this, generally speaking, Zarkovica, Bosanka, this is a

13 viewpoint, an outing locality.

14 Q. And does that mean that these two men were members of the Defence

15 of the city of Dubrovnik?

16 A. I didn't see them defending. I didn't see any weapons. I know

17 these were nice, likable guys. They would say hello to me, I would say

18 hello to them. This was a successful guy, the owner of a discotheque. I

19 had no other contacts with him.

20 Q. Did you hear of a man by the name of Nojko Marinovic?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Who is this man?

23 A. Nojko Marinovic is an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army, a

24 Croat by nationality in terms of ethnic background, I believe, and he knew

25 much more about these things that we're discussing today, much more than

Page 3199

1 you know and much more than I know, and he was there to defend his

2 Croatia. I don't know where he was positioned. I only know that his name

3 was frequently referred to. In fact, I was once introduced to him. I

4 believe it was 1997 or 1998. There was a promotion event for a book or

5 something.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak up

7 and into the microphone, please.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. What was it that you heard about this person that we're talking

10 about?

11 A. First of all, I heard that they had some suspicions about him

12 because he was from the JNA ranks, and I also heard that he was a very

13 resourceful, a very adroit person, a tactical soldier. And I heard

14 everything nice about him. And from this distance I respect what I heard

15 about him.

16 Q. So you heard that he was an adroit tactician. Where was -- who

17 was he competing with in terms of tactics?

18 A. I believe with the attackers. You know who it was that attacked

19 Dubrovnik.

20 Q. But as in Dubrovnik there were no army, there was no defence,

21 there wasn't anything; how was he trying to outdo the attacker?

22 A. Well, he sought to prevent them from attacking us to the extent

23 that they were doing. I heard stories about this person as a very nice

24 person, a very capable person, meaning that he had been educated and

25 trained very well by the JNA.

Page 3200

1 Q. And what was it that you heard about his tactical ability?

2 A. The finale showed it all, the finale being that the army did not

3 -- the Yugoslav People's Army did not manage to completely destroy

4 Dubrovnik and to enter Dubrovnik. And if this was his doing or, rather,

5 to his credit, then he deserves every praise for that.

6 Q. But was he not the commander of the defence of the city of

7 Dubrovnik?

8 A. Well, that's what they said. That is what they wrote. Now,

9 whether he was defending the city from Dubrovnik or from the surroundings,

10 I don't know.

11 Q. I assume that you did not hear any of this until very recently.

12 You didn't know it in 1991.

13 A. No, no, no, no, no. The newspapers wrote about him. Our press is

14 very open. People can write about all sorts of things. He was portrayed

15 in the newspapers the way I had put it just now. And people talked about

16 him too. They talked about him with admiration.

17 Q. Tell me. Tell me anything. What were they saying about him?

18 A. They said that he was in Trebinje, that he had some kind of rank

19 in the Yugoslav army, and that on one day when he saw this armada that was

20 getting ready to go to Dubrovnik from Trebinje, that he as a Croat was

21 offended by that and he crossed to the other side to organise the defence

22 of Croatia. Stories went around about him just like the stories told

23 about Kraljevic Marko in Serbia are. Let's put it that way. As a

24 resourceful man, a capable man. And I admired him, too, through these

25 stories.

Page 3201

1 He came with nothing in his hands, but he did organise something,

2 and the result is that we did indeed defend ourselves.

3 Q. I see that you are very familiar with this man. What was it that

4 you heard? With whose assistance did he achieve this colossal success?

5 A. Well, look, our entire town or our main street is like a

6 living-room, as we put it. That is where ladies and gentlemen come and,

7 let's put it this way, ordinary people too. And people chat, just like

8 we're sitting here and talking. So everybody knows something, and then

9 they add things to what other people are saying, so he becomes an

10 imaginary hero. I first saw him three or four years ago, as I already

11 said. He's a thin man, likable, nice looking. That's what I know.

12 Q. Please be so kind as to tell us a legend about how Nojko Marinovic

13 defended Dubrovnik.

14 A. The legend is that he came. When he came, his name meant

15 something, because we had no one at our helm. I am a composer, another

16 man is, say, a carpenter, whatever. So then he trained all these men,

17 because Dubrovnik was not defended only from the east - and that's what we

18 keep discussing here - it was attacked from the hinterland as well.

19 I told you, I don't have any specific stories to tell about him.

20 Q. Did he rally together musicians as well, some musicians?

21 A. Well, not really. Not really, because at that time, I was the

22 conductor of the symphony orchestra and also of the brass band. Often we

23 went out, we were below the city walls, and we played music often. We

24 often played the Liberty March, the American Liberty March, and that

25 raised the morale of people.

Page 3202

1 Q. Your brother was a musician, a drummer; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes. A good drummer at that, very talented. For a while, he

3 played with me in the Trubidors.

4 Q. Did he have a job after 1991?

5 A. Well, to be employed is a relative thing. Everything was

6 destroyed and there was nowhere to work. We had a bakery that baked

7 bread, and it was bombed 50 times, and somehow they managed to organise

8 things and bake bread after all.

9 Q. Mr. Jusic, from 1991 until today, was your brother employed

10 somewhere?

11 A. I don't know exactly which year this was, but he opened a shop, a

12 store selling CDs, a music shop. He also sold instruments; guitars,

13 mandolins, et cetera.

14 Q. Is it correct that your brother, from October 1991 until 1996 was

15 in the 163rd Brigade of the Croatian army?

16 A. You know what, sir, we've already dealt with that question, and it

17 would be a good thing for you to ask him about this. So please let us

18 finish this subject now.

19 Q. One more question: Is it really a fact that for five years you

20 did not know what your own brother was doing and you expect us to believe

21 that?

22 A. You know what? My brother is about 45 or 50. Am I supposed to

23 check on my brother, what he's doing and so on and so forth? That's

24 ridiculous.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I beg your pardon. Do

Page 3203

1 you perhaps share my feeling that the time would be right for us to take a

2 break now?

3 JUDGE PARKER: I was holding on, thinking you were about at the

4 end of your cross-examination. I continue with these hopes, Mr. Petrovic.

5 We will have a break now.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

9 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, with Mr. Petrovic's leave, I'd just

10 like to raise one small matter. I believe that Mr. Petrovic has now

11 concluded this particular section of his questioning, the questioning with

12 respect to the statement of the witness's brother. As is appropriate, I

13 would submit in such circumstances, I feel it important that it be stated

14 for the record that this was a statement taken on a certain date, and that

15 is the 27th and 31st of May, 2001, whereas the witness's statement was

16 taken in September, 23rd of September and 29th of September, 2000. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Kaufman.

19 Mr. Petrovic.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Jusic, please be so kind as to tell me what is a -- or,

22 rather, the Crisis Staff in Dubrovnik in October to December 1991?

23 A. The Crisis Staff was mainly concerned, to the best of my

24 knowledge, with the protection of cultural monuments.

25 Q. Do you know who the members of the Crisis Staff were?

Page 3204

1 A. I myself was a member. I was in charge of culture.

2 Q. And who else?

3 A. I know that there was a -- another musician, a critic, and his

4 name was -- I cannot recall his name now. I can see his face in front of

5 me. Perhaps I can -- I will remember later, if you can move on.

6 Q. Who was the president of the Crisis Staff?

7 A. I don't know. I cannot recall his name really.

8 Q. Who appointed you to the Crisis Staff?

9 A. No one asked me whether I wanted to be a member. I was just told,

10 "You are a member of the Crisis Staff," and I have this letter stating so.

11 There were four or five members of us. There were musicians on the staff,

12 there was a reviewer, a critic. I cannot remember all the names.

13 Q. Who sent you this letter?

14 A. I think that this memorandum was sent us by the city council of

15 the town of Dubrovnik.

16 Q. And who is the president of the city council?

17 A. Now or then?

18 Q. Then, of course.

19 A. I believe that the name of the president was Mr. Sikic.

20 Q. Is his first name Zeljko?

21 A. Possibly.

22 Q. Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?

23 A. He may have been. Possibly.

24 Q. Was he perhaps not the president of the Crisis Staff?

25 A. I do not remember these things. I was in touch with him, I can

Page 3205

1 relate -- I can tell you on what occasions I got in touch with him if

2 you're interested. In 1991, on New Year's Eve, there was organised,

3 through the offices of the French government, more precisely Mr. Kouchner,

4 a concert in Dubrovnik, and this concert was held. Participating in it

5 was an orchestra from Lyon, France. The famous American singer Barbara

6 Hendrix was also there. I was there with my children's choir as well, and

7 there was a trumpet player, a soloist, I believe. Great artists from all

8 over the world came to the concert. For instance, the greatest director

9 of Great Britain, Peter Brooke; Michel Piccoli, the famous French actor

10 also came. They came aboard a vessel to Dubrovnik, and the concert was

11 held at midnight at the Franciscan cloister and was televised live by --

12 on Eurovision.

13 After the concert ended, an hour and a half after the end, they

14 departed by ship again. This is one of the roles of the Crisis Staff that

15 I can now remember.

16 Q. How often did you meet?

17 A. Never. We never met. I mean, we never had meetings of the four

18 or five of us. Never. This was an occasion on which we gathered and

19 Mr. Zeljko asked me, as an expert on music, whether this was all right,

20 whether this or that in connection with this was okay, and in fact I

21 insisted that this concert be held.

22 Q. So the members of the Crisis Staff were people in charge of either

23 music or architecture, others again for town planning, et cetera?

24 A. Yes. More or less that's the way it was.

25 Q. And you say their president was Zeljko Sikic?

Page 3206

1 A. As I said, I believe he was. It seems to me that he was. I saw

2 him often in Dubrovnik, and we communicated mainly in the street. We ran

3 across each other in the street. I never had any reason to go to see him

4 in his office except this one time.

5 Q. And this one time in connection with this concert on New Year's

6 Eve?

7 A. Yes, in connection with this concert on New Year's Eve.

8 Q. So you never met as a member of the Crisis Staff with other

9 members of the Crisis Staff throughout this period October to December

10 1991?

11 A. No, never.

12 Q. Do you know whether these other members of the Crisis Staff,

13 Zeljko Sikic and the others, whether they met?

14 A. I do not believe they had any reason to meet, and if there was a

15 meeting, I don't see why I wouldn't have been invited.

16 Q. Will you be so kind as to tell us how did this Crisis Staff

17 function at all if nobody ever met with no one but you just happened to

18 meet, to run into one another in the street?

19 A. Well, this was more for show, so to speak. I didn't need any

20 advice as to what I was doing. There was no need for them to meet with me

21 to advise me on my particular line of activity. Whether the others met, I

22 don't know. I did my civic duty to provide some impetus to the cultural

23 life in the city, and I did that with success.

24 Q. And did the Crisis Staff perhaps not deal with issues of defence

25 of the city?

Page 3207

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did not the Crisis Staff perhaps concern itself with the questions

3 of police in the town?

4 A. No. The police was on the opposite end of the city. We had

5 nothing whatsoever to do with the police.

6 Q. Did not perhaps the Crisis Staff see to the supply of the town?

7 A. No. For instance, I myself was on one occasion, and I just now

8 remember, I was on duty handling two telephones. People were calling from

9 the island, saying there were some attacks. People were calling from the

10 Zupa, saying that there were some movements of troops. But with these two

11 telephones I could only acknowledge this fact, take note of events that

12 were going on, nothing more.

13 Q. Where were you on this duty?

14 A. In the city hall.

15 Q. Meaning by the Rector's palace in the Old Town?

16 A. Yes. The address is in front of the palace, number 1, in fact.

17 Q. How long were you on duty?

18 A. For two hours, and this was just on this -- on one occasion.

19 Q. And who then replaced you? Who took over?

20 A. One young man came, I know, because I was scared to death because

21 I had to go home at 2.00 a.m., after midnight, and it was the curfew. So

22 this was imprinted in my memory as a scene from Bergman's films.

23 Q. Do you perhaps know a person, a gentleman by the name of Mato

24 Valjalo?

25 A. I know one Valjalo, but I believe this is a deceased person, a

Page 3208

1 colleague of yours, a jurist. If that's the one that I remember.

2 Q. Do you know Mato Valjalo who was the driver of the chief of the

3 Crisis Staff Zeljko Sikic?

4 A. Well, now I know. He was here recently. He told me that he was

5 going to The Hague, but I confused him with this other person. He has a

6 moustache, and he was wounded.

7 Q. Who told you to stand duty, to be on duty in the city hall, in the

8 Crisis Staff in the city hall?

9 A. I am unable to respond to that question. I can't recall. I know

10 -- I only know that I did this, performed this as a civic duty, as a

11 citizen who was obliged to do it without, of course, if you're interested,

12 any weaponry or anything else. I didn't even have a glass of water in

13 front of me like you do now.

14 Q. As you were on duty minding the telephone, who was it that you

15 were supposed to report to if someone reported anything of interest to

16 you?

17 A. This was a vent, so to speak, for the citizens, just to have

18 someone to call, someone to talk to. "Officer on duty, person on duty,

19 are you there? I can sight a ship moving about near town." Or from the

20 Zupa someone would report some movements, troops moving towards Dubrovnik,

21 tanks moving toward Dubrovnik. So this was actually a device whereby the

22 citizens could vent their concerns of this kind.

23 Q. And these reports that you received via the telephone from people,

24 did you jot that down anywhere?

25 A. I had no one to report this to nor did I have reason to jot it

Page 3209

1 down.

2 Q. And if a ship was moving, a warship, a battleship, as at from

3 Jeta [phoen] moving through the channel, you reported that to no one?

4 A. This was sort of a ruse. It was a game of sorts. It was easier

5 for people if they knew there was a person they could report such things

6 to because I would tell them, "Fear not, we are here," and I would apply

7 all my dramatic devices in order to assist them.

8 Q. What would you tell them?

9 A. Well, I would tell them, "Never fear. We are here. There is

10 nothing they can do to us. We shall overcome," and the like. It was all

11 really innocuous. It was like a child's game. You know, everyone was

12 deceiving the other person.

13 Q. Well, if you say so, I'll take your word for it.

14 A. Believe me. It was pure Ionesco [UNESCO].

15 Q. Tell me, who is Djuro Korda?

16 MR. KAUFMAN: I think that should be Ionesco, the playwright, not

17 "UNESCO." A comedy of the absurd.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretationi] Yes, I said Ionesco.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Well, I am much more prosaic in my questions. I'm not talking

21 about this, I'm asking you about Djuro Korda.

22 A. No, I was referring to the absurdity of the situation and I

23 referred to it being a Ionesc one. Can I tell you who Djuro Korda is?

24 Q. Yes, please.

25 A. In fact, I don't know Djuro. I know Luka Korda. He was the

Page 3210

1 president, and he was -- he is -- he was a man number one in Konavle. I

2 don't know Djuro Korda. I know Luka Korda personally. He is a very nice,

3 likable person.

4 Q. Was he perhaps not the president of the HDZ?

5 A. Luka Korda was the president of the HDZ. I can remember that.

6 That was in Konavle.

7 Q. Was his brother Djuro perhaps the chief of the police department

8 in Dubrovnik?

9 A. As far as I can remember, he was not. I don't know. This is not

10 my milieu. I don't know.

11 Q. Do you know who Nikola Obuljen is?

12 A. The ex-mayor of Dubrovnik and a personal friend of mine. He was a

13 negotiator during the war, in fact. He often went to Montenegro for

14 negotiations. They would negotiate when they came to us.

15 Q. Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?

16 A. Possibly. He may have been. Perhaps he was even the president,

17 but don't take my word for it. I'm not sure. Don't try to actually catch

18 me in it, as it were.

19 Q. Did you often discuss the situation with Obuljen in that period?

20 A. No. In that period we only saw each other infrequently. When

21 they returned by vessel from Cavtat or wherever it is that they went for

22 negotiations, but later we were often together. He holds my art in high

23 esteem, and he was a very good mayor too.

24 Q. Did he ever mention, I mean Mr. Obuljen, having negotiated with

25 Admiral Jokic, perhaps?

Page 3211

1 A. Look here, in our town, the city -- the name which was the name

2 most referred to, the most often mentioned was that of the respected

3 Mr. Jokic and Mr. Zec, and a certain Brzk [phoen]. I don't -- I don't

4 know -- I cannot recall the name of this person. They were in graffiti on

5 the walls. The name which was most often mentioned was Sofronije. I

6 don't know what rank this man held. I only saw him once when the first

7 shell landed in Dubrovnik, and he was wearing a uniform. This is the name

8 most often mentioned in Dubrovnik, of the military names, that is.

9 Q. Did Obuljen tell you something about how the negotiations were

10 developing?

11 A. He did not mention any names, but he always came back with lots of

12 optimism. However, what he would talk about would not actually happen.

13 Sometimes when they came back -- it's not that he went on his own, he went

14 with other people too. They would hardly come back and the shooting would

15 resume.

16 Q. Do you know Miso Mihocevic?

17 A. I know him very well. He was interpreter during those

18 negotiations. When there would be some kind of international negotiation

19 he went with them, with Obuljen, then there was Djuro Kolic on the team

20 too, and I don't know who else went to negotiate.

21 Q. So Miso was together with Kolic Obuljen?

22 A. He was the official interpreter, because there were always some

23 foreigners present during the negotiations; UN people, observers, I don't

24 know.

25 Q. If I understood you correctly, he was the official interpreter of

Page 3212

1 the Dubrovnik delegation?

2 A. Exactly.

3 Q. Tell me, did you ever see any of the persons I mentioned just now

4 in uniform?

5 A. Only Sofronije. He was the only one who entered town. And also

6 the soldiers above my house, as I told you.

7 Q. What about the people from Dubrovnik? Did you ever see any one of

8 them in uniform?

9 A. No, I did not. Recently there was a film on television, on

10 Belgrade television, a really good film produced by TV B92.

11 Q. We'll get to that.

12 A. I'm just trying to tell you that on this film you can see very

13 nicely that they were not wearing uniforms. That's the only thing I

14 wanted to say.

15 Q. Any -- what about these people that we mentioned from Dubrovnik,

16 the ones that we talked about over the past few minutes? Did they have

17 anything to do with the army?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did I understand you correctly that Obuljen, as a member of the

20 Crisis Staff, negotiated on behalf of the Crisis Staff, or did he do it on

21 somebody else's behalf?

22 A. First and foremost, he is a prominent citizen, and I think that

23 the citizens -- had the citizens had their choice in terms of who would

24 negotiate in their name, they would have wanted Obuljen. I would be the

25 first to do so because he's a very spirited politician.

Page 3213

1 Q. Tell me, do you know who Pero Poljanic is?

2 A. Pero Poljanic was the mayor of Dubrovnik then.

3 Q. What's your relationship with Mr. Poljanic?

4 A. I know him. We say hello to each other.

5 Q. Are you pleased by the way he ran the town at that time?

6 A. Well, there's nothing much to say, but what I held against him was

7 that he never addressed the citizens of Dubrovnik over the radio, for

8 example, as opposed to, say, the bishop and other politicians at the time.

9 Q. Since you know all these people, some of them more, some of them

10 less, were there any conflicts between Sikic and Obuljen on one side and

11 Poljanic on the other side? For example, regarding their general concept,

12 how to defend oneself and what to do with regard to the situation?

13 A. That kind of thing was not obvious if that's what you're after.

14 Q. Did you perhaps hear of the initiative to demilitarise the town of

15 Dubrovnik that was launched by the top authorities of Dubrovnik?

16 A. Well, look, this did not really have to take place, this kind of

17 action, because the town had been demilitarised. There was no army there.

18 So there was nothing to be disarmed and no uniforms to be taken off when

19 there weren't any.

20 Q. Have you not heard of the initiative at all or was there nothing

21 to demilitarise?

22 A. Well, if we're talking about this term demilitarisation, I reject

23 it. There was this initiative in the field of culture as Dubrovnik was

24 being demolished that all the treasures of St. Blaise Church and other

25 artworks should be transferred to Italy. That's the only kind of

Page 3214

1 initiative I heard of. And I remember signing that initiative that that

2 should be done, if necessary.

3 Q. And you did not hear that the mayor of Dubrovnik, the president of

4 the Executive Council of Dubrovnik sent a letter to the leadership, asking

5 that Dubrovnik be proclaimed a demilitarised town, that the armed

6 conflicts stop?

7 A. Wait a minute. That was the wish of the entire world. I can only

8 welcome that, as I did at the time.

9 Q. Perhaps I was not precise enough. To demilitarise the town, to

10 have UN forces come into town. Do you know of such an initiative of the

11 local authorities in the town of Dubrovnik?

12 A. I only know of a negative initiative that was launched by

13 Mr. Kouchner, because he was, I don't know what, president of Medicins

14 Sans Frontieres. I think that was the name. And he had a -- he held a

15 lecture. I even attended. He brought a French warship so that the people

16 of Dubrovnik could move out of Dubrovnik and then that Dubrovnik could be

17 won through negotiations, and Dubrovnik had not been lost at all. And

18 then people booed him out, and women said that that would not be the way

19 to deal with it, rather, the other way around.

20 So that was a decisive moment. This was such a stupid idea, and

21 it was totally against Dubrovnik.

22 Q. So you are claiming that Kouchner came to Dubrovnik?

23 A. That's what he said. I heard that's what he said, because I put a

24 counter-question to him: Is there perhaps a small footpath for us to

25 return? He brought an enormous ship along, and many women and children

Page 3215

1 took that boat to Venice.

2 Q. If I understood all of this, you talked to Kouchner.

3 A. I attended his lecture, and I was in the audience, and after the

4 lecture he was taking questions from the audience.

5 Q. And who was officially negotiating with Kouchner?

6 A. On the stage there was another Frenchman, a philosopher. Then

7 there was a gentleman called Mr. Demistura. I don't know who represented.

8 And from Dubrovnik there was no one, really, with them.

9 When these eminent people from the world came - eminent for want

10 of a better word - people would come to hear their lectures but it wasn't

11 that they were all that useful, these lectures.

12 Q. How did you find out that the ambassadors from 15 countries came?

13 A. Well, you know what? My window faces the Excelsior Hotel and the

14 sea, and also I have binoculars, if that's the word, so I saw some people

15 that I did not know, and then I went to town and that's when I saw these

16 people.

17 Q. Oh, so you caught sight of these ambassadors through your

18 binoculars?

19 A. Yes, yes. There was a UN flag there, some kind of diplomatic

20 flag. That was unusual. Usually when there was a ship there, there would

21 be a Red Cross flag on it.

22 Q. Did you use these binoculars often?

23 A. I still use them until the present day. That's my hobby. I watch

24 everything, as I told you.

25 Q. So what were all the things that you watched in -- through the

Page 3216

1 binoculars in that period that we're discussing now? Did you watch

2 everything that you could see?

3 A. Everything. I watched the entire Yugoslav army withdrawing with

4 the ships called Galeb, Jadran, all the gunboats as all of this was

5 sailing eastward. And I also saw it when they were trying to torch Lokrum

6 and when they targeted Lokrum with thousands of incendiary shells.

7 Q. Did you watch the Belvedere Hotel through those binoculars?

8 A. Yes, I can see it with the naked eye too, but I watched it through

9 binoculars as well.

10 Q. Before and after the destruction, you did not see anything of the

11 hotel?

12 A. I did not see anything, but I saw the first shell that fell on the

13 new pool, and the pool fell apart.

14 Q. Through these binoculars, in the territory of the town of

15 Dubrovnik, you did not see a single soldier, a single weapon that did not

16 belong to the JNA?

17 A. Sir, yesterday you watched the film together with me. Did you see

18 anything, any little plume of smoke coming from Dubrovnik? There would

19 have had to be some footage, at least, of that kind of thing.

20 Q. We'll get to that. Who is Slobodan Lang?

21 A. Slobodan Lang is a physician.

22 Q. I think he's the president of the American-Croatian Friendship

23 Society. He's a positive man. He came to Dubrovnik. He was engaged in

24 humanitarian affairs. It's the kind of thing he did later in Bosnia too.

25 So I think very well of him, and I can say nothing but the best.

Page 3217

1 Q. This man Lang sent some messages through Radio Dubrovnik.

2 A. Yes, on the 6th of December, somewhere around 6.00. I don't know

3 when this happened exactly. He was asking for SOS, and I know that we

4 were told then that some boats were coming in from Korcula and from Italy.

5 At any rate, there was a cease-fire then, and also the curfew was no

6 longer there. But Minister Rudolf spoke at that time too. It wasn't a

7 new thing, as far as Lang was concerned. He often addressed the citizens

8 with messages.

9 Q. What did Minister Rudolf do in Dubrovnik at the time? Do you know

10 that?

11 A. Yes, I do know. At one point in time he came to negotiate. He

12 was one of the negotiators that joined Obuljen, Golic. I met him

13 personally at that time.

14 Q. Did you talk to these people about anything else apart from

15 carrots and all the other things that you mentioned?

16 A. Well, look. Carrots were an ideal that we aspired for then, and

17 we did not really talk about anything substantial.

18 Q. You didn't ask any of these people about what the situation was

19 like and how the negotiations were getting along and things like that?

20 A. Well, look, it is sheer politeness. It is a question of manners

21 not to ask people about things they are not supposed to talk about, but

22 they said that the other side promised that they wouldn't do anything and

23 things like that, but obviously this is something that was not abided by.

24 Q. Did you meet these ambassadors who came?

25 A. They were in Stradun, the main street. I didn't talk to them. I

Page 3218

1 was next to them.

2 Q. Yesterday when you were answering my colleague's questions, the

3 questions put to you by my distinguished colleague, you said that you saw

4 some JNA officers coming with these ambassadors. You perhaps recognised

5 some of them?

6 A. They told me, "This is Sofronije." I told you that awhile ago. I

7 did not really know him. That was the only JNA officer I saw.

8 Q. Could you please help me understand what you're telling me now.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. You were in your apartment. You were watching things through your

11 binoculars. You noticed these ambassadors and the JNA officers.

12 A. No, I didn't say officers. I said that I saw a new boat down

13 there, and that is the kind of thing we find interesting. And then I went

14 to town, and then they told me that these were the ambassadors who had

15 brought this Sofronije along to show that indeed Dubrovnik had been

16 targeted and that an old balcony had been destroyed, for instance. It

17 wasn't that he came out of his goodwill but he had to come because the

18 ambassadors wanted to show him this.

19 Q. Oh, so they brought him there to show him?

20 A. Well, not like a little child, but I heard their conversation and

21 we heard them saying things like that, see, you are shooting even though

22 you say that you're not shooting.

23 Q. Did you perhaps try to speak to the ambassadors?

24 A. No, because I know Mr. Hrvoje Kacic very well, who was on the

25 delegation then, and then he told me why the ambassadors had come.

Page 3219

1 Q. Please tell me something about the gunboats that you referred to

2 several times. You were saying that they had been shooting. Is it true

3 that you said yesterday that the poet Milisic got killed by the first shot

4 that came from the gunboat?

5 A. Precisely.

6 Q. Did you see that?

7 A. Well, look: This is my apartment facing the sea and Dubrovnik.

8 About 50 metres or 100 metres on the other side is Milisic's apartment.

9 So he did not get killed from anything coming from the back or from the

10 air. So this bullet or whatever it's called hit him directly, and it

11 could only come from the sea because the firing came from the gunboats

12 then, and also there was no electricity then. After all, his wife

13 confirmed that later.

14 Q. So you did not see that.

15 A. Well, I cannot see a bullet. I saw the gunboat.

16 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Tell me that, "I didn't see it."

17 A. I saw a gunboat shooting. It wasn't that it was shooting just

18 like that, at random.

19 Q. How often was it shooting, this gunboat?

20 A. There were three or four that were there. They were shooting

21 quite often.

22 Q. I assume that you filmed these gunboats.

23 A. I did.

24 Q. How were they deployed, these three or four gunboats?

25 A. They were on the move all the time. One was near Cavtat. The

Page 3220

1 other one was behind Lokrum, and other one was below the city walls. I

2 know these gunboats because one of them was always there, the one that was

3 down there near the vila in Kupari. I think it's called Karaula. Its

4 number was 134 or something like. I think that's what people said. And

5 then also there were these rocket boats, those that have these two big

6 barrels on the side.

7 Q. Could you explain this to me? For example, this kind of terrible

8 thing like having a tourist yacht torpedoed, which you say that you

9 filmed.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That you recorded it on your tape. How is it possible that you

12 did not mention this to the investigators of the OTP when they talked to

13 you about your experience from Dubrovnik in 1991?

14 A. In Dubrovnik is a big marina, and there are very expensive boats

15 there, and when they first attacked from Golubov Kamen, they sunk a true

16 fortune there, and I assume that there was some German who was told that

17 his yacht had survived the attack simply came there to get it out. And

18 that is what my assumption is, because a lot of people were stealing

19 yachts too. There was mayhem there. I said that first and foremost so

20 that you would hear about it. This is quite incredible. I filmed this

21 and I handed over this tape. It can fall under the group of questions

22 called "believe it or not."

23 Q. Well, what is believe-it-or-not as far as I'm concerned is that in

24 a seven or eight-page statement --

25 A. Please just quote what I said.

Page 3221

1 Q. That is the problem. I have nothing to quote. This kind of

2 terrible thing like the sinking of a yacht, a tourist yacht by a JNA

3 gunboat, is something that you did not mention at all in your statement.

4 A. We probably didn't reach that subject. This was a nice

5 conversation with two fine people, these two investigators. You can't

6 even call them investigators, they were conversationalists. Nice people.

7 We were having this nice conversation. We were talking about very prosaic

8 matters. It was summer in Dubrovnik.

9 Q. Several times you mentioned gunboats to these kind people.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. For example, in paragraph 16 and then in paragraph 32 and

12 elsewhere. How is it possible that you did not tell them about this kind

13 of a terrible thing, or were they not listening to you?

14 A. It really is a terrible thing. It really is a terrible thing.

15 You're right. We probably did not get to that subject because we had many

16 interesting things that we were discussing, but I think that this sailing

17 boat, although a tragedy, and probably the captain disappeared together

18 with the yacht --

19 Q. Were they not interested in that? They did not ask about the

20 gunboats?

21 A. I was talking. Nobody asked me things. They asked me what

22 happened. I did the talking. It wasn't that they went through all these

23 dates with me. They didn't ask me about that.

24 Q. And you made this selection in terms of what was relevant and what

25 was not relevant, and then you forgot to mention this terrible thing.

Page 3222

1 A. That's no selection. Things just went on and I probably made an

2 oversight. Well, perhaps I told somebody else, because I had three

3 different discussions of this kind. Perhaps it was some other time. But

4 that doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned now. It is one of those

5 things that you could call "believe it or not."

6 So I took this tape there and the tape disappeared and I've never

7 heard of it since.

8 Q. How many statements did you make?

9 A. Two or three times. Twice for sure. The first time I made a

10 statement for two days, and the other time one day. This was at the

11 Kompas Hotel in Lapad.

12 Q. What was this atmosphere that you were conducting this talk in?

13 Were you careful? Were you focused?

14 A. Very much so. I told you this morning. You know what summer is

15 like in Dubrovnik. I was focused for about an hour or so, but we had this

16 very leisurely, pleasant conversation.

17 Q. Did they read out for you what they had written down?

18 A. Yes, and I read it myself, and I signed it.

19 Q. Was it all faithfully reflecting what you said?

20 A. I don't know that. I don't think that is relevant at this time.

21 Q. Did anyone else apart from you yourself see that?

22 A. I don't know that.

23 Q. Did you tell anybody about it?

24 A. I talked about it a lot and some people told me that this yacht

25 had sailed out, that it had a siren on the stern.

Page 3223

1 Q. Where was exactly this yacht when you saw it torpedoed?

2 A. If you take that this circle are the city walls, it was about half

3 a mile away from the ramparts.

4 Q. All right. And the camera that you used to record what we are

5 talking about here today, what type of a camera was it?

6 A. These are the first type of cameras, quite large ones, Panasonic

7 cameras, which I had to carry on my shoulder. I believe that they're

8 marked D7 or something like that, and they use these large VHS cassettes.

9 Q. So you inserted the large VHS cassette into the camera.

10 A. Yes, you did.

11 Q. Tell me, in your experience, what kind of VHS cassettes exist in

12 terms of running time?

13 A. Sixty minutes, 120 minutes, 240 minutes.

14 Q. What kind of cassettes were you using? Which ones were you using?

15 A. I had some at home, running time 240 minutes, which I had prepared

16 to use to film my children, but since they are not very good for the video

17 recorder, I rejected them very quickly and switched to the 120 minutes

18 ones.

19 Q. On how many cassettes did you actually film this material that we

20 have been discussing these two past days?

21 A. Perhaps one or perhaps I also inserted another one where there was

22 some free footage still. One, basically.

23 Q. But you said two.

24 A. Well, perhaps I used some portions of the other ones which were

25 still empty, and I hadn't prepared myself to film anything in the war.

Page 3224

1 Q. But since this is a camera which is at least 14 to 15 years old,

2 can you tell me how were you able to see on this second cassette what was

3 actually being recorded on it?

4 A. Which second cassette?

5 Q. The second cassette that you say you partially used. How did you

6 know what was on it?

7 A. I viewed it. I viewed it after I had exhausted the cassette and

8 filmed all the birthdays, and so on and so forth, and I just viewed it on

9 television.

10 Q. Please explain to me, how did you view it on a TV if there was no

11 electricity for 150 days or so?

12 A. I told you I could see it on the display, on the screen on the

13 camera where one could rewind the film and see what one had filmed, as

14 well as on television.

15 Q. Please be so kind as to tell me what kinds of batteries does this

16 camera use.

17 A. It has a big battery, as I told you yesterday. So as I told you

18 yesterday, I had, after having exhausted the battery, I had to run to the

19 city hall to have it recharged.

20 Q. But you didn't tell us that. When was it that you ran to the city

21 hall?

22 A. It was on the 7th. I was filming from 7.00 to 9.00 a.m., when we

23 were filming the ruins, and then when you saw the clock on the film which

24 showed 11 and 40 minutes, that is the time at which I ended my recording.

25 Q. How did you fill your battery for the shooting of the 6th?

Page 3225

1 A. It was already charged, because as I told you, there were a number

2 of generating sets in the city, for instance in Revelin and some other

3 places. So this was all along the route which I took when I went home.

4 Q. So you would take this battery at night?

5 A. No, I wouldn't take it at night. This just happened only once. I

6 didn't run around like a CNN journalist filming things. I could only -- I

7 just filmed what I could with what battery charge I had.

8 Q. Am I wrong when I say the curfew was on in Dubrovnik?

9 A. Of course it was on.

10 Q. Were you then able -- dare you walk around the city?

11 A. No, of course not. I wouldn't dream of it. It was out of the

12 question, in fact.

13 Q. Did you perhaps have the right to move without restriction around

14 town as a member of the Crisis Staff?

15 A. No, not really, and I wouldn't have dared go out into the streets.

16 That is the truth.

17 Q. So how long can this battery last?

18 A. I believe three hours or so.

19 Q. Please explain. If on the 6th you used up the battery, where did

20 you recharge it for the first part of the 7th?

21 A. There was some power in it. There was still some power in it.

22 But that's why I did not immediately use it.

23 Q. So you did not use it the first day for as long as you could have?

24 A. That is right, because I was -- I wanted to keep a reserve for

25 things which -- because I had a feeling that there would be things that

Page 3226

1 would be of more interest for me to record.

2 Q. And how long did you do the -- how long did you record on the

3 first day?

4 A. I don't remember. I know where you're leading me. I didn't

5 record for three hours at once. I would, you know, film this or that and

6 then I would turn it off, and then I would put it on standby, and then I

7 would wait and turn it on again. Of course, the camera does not use up

8 the electricity when it is on standby.

9 Q. Are you sure this is the same thing that you told me yesterday?

10 A. We did not discuss it along these lines in this courtroom.

11 Q. Now, tell me, in respect of the tape that you -- we saw yesterday,

12 what was filmed in October on that tape?

13 A. Possibly nothing.

14 Q. Are you quite certain that there was nothing?

15 A. No. It is just a possibility. I probably filmed these boats as

16 they were returning from Split. And at that time, we still had

17 electricity. I -- it is not as if I was preparing myself for this filming

18 and had some documents. This was a spontaneous exercise.

19 Q. So what was it that you did film in October?

20 A. For instance, the pulling out of these ships. That was extremely

21 interesting. They were actually whizzing by Dubrovnik with large waves in

22 their wake, and they were actually the only ships there at the time which

23 were sailing. It was all deserted by that time. I know that one of them

24 had to return because -- and had to stay overnight in Cavtat.

25 Q. Please tell me, with this extremely interesting matter that you're

Page 3227

1 referring to, where is it recorded on this tape that we saw yesterday?

2 A. Look, I'm spreading the truth about my city, not about the

3 Yugoslav People's Army, and that was my objective, to show the demolition

4 of my city, not how the army was pulling out, because that was an army

5 that I respected until then.

6 Q. So what you refer to as being extremely interesting --

7 A. To me.

8 Q. -- to you, you left that out?

9 A. Please come visit my place as a gentleman. Let us sit down and

10 look at these tapes together. It's just one and a half cassettes.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. But please be so kind as to tell me before

12 that, before I come to see you and be your guest, be so kind as to tell me

13 where is this part of your video recording?

14 A. It is in one of these two cassettes. Look here, I'm here in the

15 capacity of a witness to testify to the attack on and demolition of

16 Dubrovnik. I'm not here to testify about the withdrawal of the Yugoslav

17 army. Perhaps that may be of relevance for the military and the military

18 archives and military experts one day.

19 Q. Did you give this recording to the OTP gentleman?

20 A. No, I didn't. I felt that it was unnecessary precisely for the

21 reason which I just expounded.

22 Q. Did you explain to the Trial Chamber yesterday? Did you not, if I

23 remember correctly, to a question by His Honour, did you not say that you

24 had omitted from those tapes only and solely pauses, lulls when nothing

25 was happening?

Page 3228

1 A. Yes, I did, but I don't see that there is any misunderstanding

2 there. I still assert that it is of no relevance for this Court, I mean

3 the withdrawal of ships.

4 Q. But there are other things, don't you think, which -- or were

5 there other things which in your judgement are immaterial to this Court?

6 A. Well, I have material recorded on the sinking of these small boats

7 in the city harbour. I also have recordings of the sinking of the oldest

8 sailboat in the Adriatic which is called Roditelj. I also have footage of

9 how a Maljutka, an unexploded Maljutka with threads hanging from it is

10 lodged in the city wall. What I was concretely interested in was what was

11 falling when Dubrovnik was being destroyed.

12 Q. Be so kind as to answer for the Trial Chamber of what relevance is

13 glass or, rather, a bottle of drink with glasses on your terrace which one

14 can see in the 44th minute, 2nd second of your footage?

15 A. Where did you see that?

16 Q. I saw it on the tape which ostensibly you edited and you gave it

17 to us.

18 A. I don't think it is there. I don't think something of that kind

19 exists. I didn't see it. But why wouldn't there be a glass? In fact, it

20 is my balcony. It is my drink. But I don't think it was a real drink

21 because there were no drinks to be had in Dubrovnik at the time.

22 Q. Well, we'll take a look at that later, but why did you, for

23 instance, in the 13th minute, film some dogs on the beach strolling --

24 well, walking on the beach? Is that important?

25 A. It is extremely important, because this only shows that people

Page 3229

1 from the surrounding villages in Konavle had been expelled and that these

2 dogs, having been left homeless, as it were, were just running around

3 without their masters.

4 Q. And this bottle of drink just strayed into the picture, did it

5 not?

6 A. I didn't see it, but if it was my house, I think it's only normal

7 that it should be there.

8 Q. Well, I'll tell you what it looked like. So this tape, 42nd

9 minute, which shows the ceiling in the Franciscan cloister, the 43rd

10 minute depicts a gunboat opening fire on the city, and the 44th minute is

11 a bottle of, I think, pear brandy, viljanbovka [phoen], on your table.

12 What connection is there between all these?

13 A. Well, you know what? The last time I had viljanbovka is in

14 Slovenia. That is not my poison. I don't think you could have seen it

15 there, please.

16 Q. Perhaps it was another kind of drink.

17 A. Well, it is my home and my home is my castle, so I don't see why

18 it shouldn't have been there.

19 Q. I'm not disputing that your home is your castle. I'm just asking

20 what is the link between these scenes. Why did you put it on this tape

21 which we are discussing here?

22 A. Sir, I think you are imagining, you are dreaming. You didn't see

23 this bottle. Please show me this 44th minute. And where is it on the

24 balcony? I'll tell you what is on the balcony.

25 MR. KAUFMAN: Your Honours, I do believe that there is a rule,

Page 3230

1 certainly in certain Angelo Saxon jurisdictions, of finality to collateral

2 questions. Now, if Mr. Petrovic is wishing to make a point, maybe he'd

3 make the point and move on, but I really do believe unless the point is to

4 be a made about the bottle of pear brandy, then this should be a matter

5 for finality.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission.

7 Of course it is wholly irrelevant. But what I'm interested in is how the

8 tape was edited, how it was put together. How come this tape contains

9 something of that kind, whereas, for instance, of the several hours of the

10 shelling of the Old City as described by Mr. Jusic, do you know how much

11 he actually recorded, Your Honour? Nine minutes and 25 seconds. That is

12 the reason why I'm asking this question. Where is the rest of the

13 material?

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, there is no doubt that the point you

15 are pursuing is one that is relevant to the Defence case. The problem is

16 you pursue it at such enormous length. The point you're wanting to make

17 can be made very quickly. You get your answers; if you think there's

18 something obviously wrong with them, you might want to put another

19 question. But you keep at it. We've been talking about bottles for, it

20 seems, many minutes. The fact that there may be something recorded which

21 is not relevant to this case and to what the witness was saying is a

22 matter which, if you see it as important, can be put very quickly. But

23 why we spend all this time on it, getting no further than the first answer

24 you got, is something that is leaving me very disappointed.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept all the

Page 3231

1 criticism which you levelled at me.

2 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I apologise for interrupting

3 at this moment, but if it is likely that the cross will not finish today,

4 the Prosecution respectfully asks for a few minutes once the witness is no

5 longer here as it does not concern the witness to discuss a matter of some

6 urgency, and if the Chamber could inform if it might be willing to grant

7 it, if this witness will be returning tomorrow, if it would not mind

8 necessarily if we took some time today to do it.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I will keep that in mind.

10 Are you near the end of your cross-examination, Mr. Petrovic?

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am not, but I have

12 covered a considerable portion of my questions, most of them.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Well, carry on for a few more minutes, if you

14 would.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Tell me, what did you film in November on your tape?

17 A. You're asking about so many details, these dates and everything.

18 I -- I don't know. Perhaps I didn't film anything. Perhaps it was just

19 nothing.

20 Q. When you view your tape, can you establish what was filmed when?

21 A. I can. I told you yesterday this was the 6th and this was the

22 7th, and I told you that other things were towards the end of November.

23 For example, the car flying in the air, that was in November. That was

24 before the main attack on Dubrovnik.

25 Q. Tell me, please, at the end of the tape, the gunboat that can be

Page 3232

1 seen as the last scene, not taking into account what we were discussing

2 just now, when was that taken?

3 A. Probably on the 7th. It's not one, it's two gunboats standing

4 next to each other towards Cavtat, two gunboats.

5 Q. The 7th. And do you remember that this gunboat was actually

6 shooting?

7 A. I don't know about this particular one, but they are shooting, and

8 how. And there is lots of smoke coming from there.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to stop

10 at this point and continue tomorrow. However, I should like to seek your

11 assistance with regard to one particular matter. I discussed this with my

12 learned friends. The Defence regrettably does not have any of the

13 necessary technical equipment for showing the tape to Mr. Jusic, so with

14 your permission, and if I understood my learned friends correctly, they

15 are ready to help the Defence, and they have expressed their goodwill, so

16 I kindly ask for your permission that when we view the tape, Mrs. McCreath

17 could help the Defence to the following extent: She would present the

18 footage that is relevant to the Defence to you, Your Honours. Of course,

19 if you find this acceptable.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kaufman, is there any problem with that?

21 MR. KAUFMAN: Well, I can, of course, tell the Chamber what I

22 discussed with Mr. Petrovic in the interval, and that was that for

23 Prosecution case and the Prosecution exhibits, of course Mr. Petrovic does

24 not have the technical ability to show that, and insofar as he doesn't

25 have that, we would be prepared to be of assistance. However, when we

Page 3233

1 come to the Defence case I wouldn't want it to be understood from our

2 agreement on this point that we will be showing the Defence exhibits or

3 preparing Defence exhibits for display on Prosecution equipment once

4 again.

5 JUDGE PARKER: As I understand it, what Mr. Petrovic is asking is

6 assistance to enable there to be played extracts from your tape.

7 MR. KAUFMAN: And I have indicated that we will assist in that

8 matter.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That's your answer, Mr. Petrovic.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, before you finish, your time

12 expectation of tomorrow.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm convinced that I

14 will have finished before the first break.

15 JUDGE PARKER: I'm encouraged by that. Be clear, I would suggest

16 that you won't be allowed to go beyond the first break.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Jusic, I -- as you will appreciate, I must say

19 to you that your evidence will need to continue tomorrow, although the

20 indications are that it will certainly finish during the course of

21 tomorrow morning, and you will then be free to go. So thank you very much

22 for your attendance today and your preparedness to be here again tomorrow

23 morning. If you could now leave the court, there's apparently some other

24 matter that is to be discussed with the Chamber before we break for the

25 day.

Page 3234

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your kind words. See

2 you tomorrow.

3 [The witness stood down]

4 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.

5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I believe that

6 this will require, if the Chamber is not opposed to it, given the subject

7 matter, a private session as it concerns health related issues and orders

8 pursuant thereto.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. The Chamber will move into a -- you're

10 proposing a hearing in camera, is it?

11 MS. SOMERS: Yes. This camera, but yes, absolutely. Thank you.

12 [Private session]

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

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Page 3235

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Page 3240

1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

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