Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3891

 1                          Thursday, 25 March 2004

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.  I must apologise that a matter

 7    caused the Chamber to be delayed coming in.  I'm sorry that we kept you

 8    waiting.

 9            Yes, Ms. Somers.

10            May I remind you, Admiral, of the affirmation you took at the

11    beginning of your evidence, which still applies.

12            Ms. Somers.

13            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14                          WITNESS:  MIODRAG JOKIC [Resumed]

15                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                          Examined by Ms. Somers:  [Continued]

17       Q.   Good afternoon, Admiral Jokic.  I wanted to quickly return to a

18    few points from yesterday's examination and ask you about

19    Captain Kovacevic a little more.  During the time period that the 3rd

20    Battalion of the 472nd Brigade was subordinated to you, did

21    Captain Kovacevic report to you or to General Strugar?

22       A.   To me.

23       Q.   May I just notify the transcript people that it reads 422.  It

24    should read 472nd.  That's line 20.

25            Are you aware of any exceptions where Captain Kovacevic reported

Page 3892

 1    to General Strugar and not to you?

 2       A.   I can only say that he often went to the command post in Trebinje

 3    because the brigade was his superior unit and the brigade was located in

 4    the Trebinje area.  Therefore, the communication between him, the brigade

 5    command, and the command of the 2nd Operational Group was quite assiduous.

 6    This was much closer for him to get to in terms of distance, and also in

 7    terms of, perhaps, his objectives.

 8       Q.   However, your command post was at Kupari; is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes.  In terms of military hierarchy, it would have been quite in

10    order for him to report on a daily basis in the evening at about 5.00 in

11    the afternoon as all other commanders used to come.  However, on account

12    of problems in his own battalion, he often reported that he was unable

13    to -- to make it there because he was busy where he was.  I would usually

14    accept this, Chief of Staff or myself, whoever received the report.

15       Q.   But he was to have reported to you in Kupari?

16       A.   Yes.  He often phoned.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Can you describe the relationship as you saw it

18    between General Strugar and Captain Kovacevic?

19       A.   At the beginning I was not aware of that naturally, but during the

20    course of my command and later, I understood clearly that General Strugar

21    was very fond of Captain Kovacevic and that he was impressed by him.  This

22    was a brave man, after all, held in high esteem, capable.  He was even

23    physically attractive as a soldier, as an officer.  So he impressed

24    everyone favourably.  I don't know if they used to know each other earlier

25    or not, but I understood clearly that he enjoyed all of the general's

Page 3893

 1    support and protection.  There were one or two particular instances that I

 2    heard of this later on.

 3       Q.   Are you aware of any gifts or special favours between

 4    Captain Kovacevic and General Strugar?

 5       A.   Yes.  This is something I heard later on in 1992 when the

 6    Dubrovnik operation was over.  He was awarded a flat in Podgorica,

 7    skipping people who had been ahead of him on the waiting list, in return

 8    for which I believe he gave a passenger vehicle as a present.

 9       Q.   When you say he was awarded a flat, Admiral, to whom are you

10    referring?  Who is he?

11       A.   I mean Captain Kovacevic.

12       Q.   Admiral, you mentioned earlier that Captain Kovacevic's objectives

13    were closer to Trebinje.  What did you mean by that?

14       A.   What I had in mind was that his command was located in the

15    Trebinje area and he knew all those people there, at the command post of

16    the 2nd Operational Group.  He also had people who he cared about, and

17    they cared about him, too.  As for us sailors, to our command he was a new

18    face; I'd never seen him before.  Therefore, he spent more time with those

19    people since they were part of his original command, and everything he had

20    was there.  He was only temporarily resubordinated to me, only for those

21    specific operations.

22       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.  His obligation, however, was to report to

23    you.  That is correct?

24       A.   By all means, which he did.

25       Q.   Thank you.

Page 3894

 1       A.   Whenever he had to.  It's just I'm saying that --

 2       Q.   Thank you, Admiral Jokic.  I just want to clarify a point.  You

 3    said that Captain Kovacevic was given a flat.  Now, who gave him a flat?

 4       A.   General Pavle Strugar was the commander of the 2nd army in

 5    Podgorica at the time, the army that had been set up in the meantime.

 6       Q.   And he gave -- you're saying that General Strugar gave him the

 7    flat?

 8       A.   That's what he told me.  I heard that from him personally.

 9       Q.   From whom?  From whom?

10       A.   From Captain Kovacevic.

11       Q.   And who gave Captain Kovacevic the vehicle?  Who gave

12    Captain Kovacevic the vehicle?

13       A.   He, Captain Kovacevic, gave the vehicle to General Strugar.

14    That's what I said.

15       Q.   Thank you.  How would you characterise your relationship with

16    General Strugar?

17       A.   As a subordinate commander, I had a fair, correct relationship

18    with him.  We never clashed, not officially, in no way at all, and I think

19    I was loyal to him in every way.  We knew each other from before, not too

20    well, but while I was the commander of the Boka sector and he was the

21    commander of the Montenegrin Territorial Defence, we saw each other

22    occasionally.  There were no problems between us, no problems of official

23    or personal nature.  At least from my point of view, there were no

24    problems.

25       Q.   Excuse me, Admiral.  Did you have a sense that you were trusted or

Page 3895

 1    less than trusted by General Strugar?  What was your perception?

 2       A.   Well, as a commander he had trust, but he was very often

 3    dissatisfied with the general situation in terms of control and command,

 4    in terms of the results we were getting, in terms of daily problems

 5    throughout our units.  Globally speaking, I think very often he was

 6    unhappy.  I am sure that he was facing his own problems with the TO back

 7    in Podgorica.  As concerns me specifically, I know of several examples

 8    where he was --

 9       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

10       A.   -- when he was unhappy about the blockade from the sea, from where

11    the sea was, because we did not have sufficient ships.  We only had the

12    two patrol boats patrolling the local line, so occasionally it would

13    happen that Croatian boats at night would enter the town with arms,

14    smuggled arms, on board.  There were cases where the blockade had been

15    broken through.  He intervened, and he insisted that the blockade be

16    preserved.  He was absolutely right in requesting this.

17            There were cases of indiscipline, of people getting wounded, of

18    acts of provocation, and he always made his displeasure clear in these

19    cases.  There were several cases where people were wounded and killed at

20    Bosanka, but I -- I expect that we shall deal with this later.

21       Q.   Admiral, do you know how General Strugar perceived you?  Were you

22    viewed as a tough commander?  Were you -- what was -- if you know, what

23    was the perception of you?

24       A.   I don't know.  I can't say.  I can give you one example.  We were

25    at the command post.  I had what was perhaps a bit of a sharp dialogue, a

Page 3896

 1    conversation with General Perisic, and he said he believed that

 2    General Perisic was right in that case and said he believed that

 3    General Perisic was the best commander he ever had.  I was a bit

 4    crestfallen over that.  I was disappointed by his position, because I

 5    believe that I, in fact, was right.

 6       Q.   Admiral, moving on, ask you about an incident involving the Budva

 7    Territorial Defence unit and a disciplinary issue over that.  Do you

 8    recall such an incident where you took measures?

 9       A.   Yes.  This was about the Budva territorial company.  It was a weak

10    unit with poor discipline.  They failed to carry out my orders, and once

11    during an inspection I found several of them in some villages in Zupa.

12    They were looting and trying to get away in a vehicle.  I called their

13    commander and ordered that they should leave the front line together with

14    the whole unit.  There had been several interventions that were made.  I

15    failed to give way, and the whole unit went back to Budva.

16       Q.   Did you send them back to Budva?

17       A.   Yes, I did.

18       Q.   And did you retain the unit or did you disband the unit?

19       A.   No.  I was not the one who set up those territorial companies.

20    Back then, we had a coordination body, a body that was in charge of

21    coordination.  Djurickovic, who was the Chief of Staff of the Territorial

22    Defence staff of Montenegro, he was the coordinator for the territorial

23    companies.  He carried out coordination between those companies in the

24    command of the 9th sector.  We were unable to do that since those

25    companies were quite many.  Therefore, he was the one who set up those

Page 3897

 1    units, who mobilised those units and it was down to him really.  He was

 2    the person in charge.  I merely used those units pursuant to a joint plan

 3    that we agreed.  There was a plan to use those units.

 4       Q.   At the time of your dealing with the disciplinary problem of the

 5    Budva territorial company, was it in the course of battle, and if so, what

 6    did you do?

 7       A.   No.  This was outside of battle.  That was during a lull in the

 8    fighting.

 9       Q.   The -- an incident, if you recall, in an area called Cibaca in

10    late 1991.  Do you recall an incident involving indiscipline by soldiers?

11       A.   Yes.  According to a plan that we had, we were supposed to send a

12    unit on leave, as we said, after 45 days of continuous operations.  Units

13    in part or in whole would be sent on leave.  They would be allowed to go

14    back home.  But I was not able to discipline that particular unit.  I was

15    not able to prevent them from using arms.  So at first we tried to take

16    the arms away from them.  This was difficult to carry out, however, and it

17    proved impossible eventually.  I called General Strugar.  I informed him I

18    was unable to do that and I asked for his assistance.  This was a unit of

19    Montenegrins, and they were friendlier with a commander who was a

20    Montenegrin himself.  I didn't even speak their dialects.  I asked him to

21    speak to them.  He accepted --

22       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

23       A.   -- he came there and the two of us together.

24       Q.   Who is -- when you say "him" --

25       A.   General Strugar.

Page 3898

 1       Q.   Thank you?

 2       A.   I had the unit lined up with its commander and all the people who

 3    were there.  The boss was there, too.  He addressed them, he gave a speech

 4    the kind of speech that a commander would only be expected to give.  He

 5    appealed to them to preserve discipline, to keep up a good level of

 6    discipline.  He allowed them to keep their arms.  They appealed to him to

 7    keep their arms and so that they wouldn't use it.  Reluctantly he agreed

 8    to this.  However, as soon as they boarded the buses the shooting began

 9    through the windows of the bus.

10       Q.   In your presence?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.

12       Q.   And --

13       A.   As soon as they turned the bend.

14       Q.   And in the presence of General Strugar as well?

15       A.   Yes.  Yes.  It was at a distance of about 500 metres from where we

16    were standing.

17       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

18       A.   This bus that the shooting came from.

19       Q.   These units were subordinate to General Strugar?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22       A.   Yes the Territorial Defence units.

23       Q.   What did General Strugar do about it?  What measures did he take

24    at that time?

25       A.   He didn't take any measures.  He could not take any measures,

Page 3899

 1    because he had so many major problems he was facing at the time, this was

 2    just one of many problems that we faced.

 3       Q.   What kind of firearms were they using?  What kind of arms, excuse

 4    me, were involved in this incident of indiscipline?

 5            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by apology I object to

 6    the way that my learned friend and colleague is examining this witness.

 7    The admiral is answering questions that are asked.  He wishes to provide

 8    an explanation of what he says, however, my colleague interrupts him with

 9    no obvious need and would not even allow him to finish his sentence.  This

10    is later on reflected in an illogical and inconsistent transcript.  If a

11    question is asked, can we please allow the admiral to please finish

12    answering?

13            JUDGE PARKER:  If you could just carry on.

14            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  When the question is

15    answered, I just try to move on.  Thank you.

16       Q.   Admiral, my question to you was:  What kind of arms were involved

17    in this incident of indiscipline?

18       A.   Usual infantry weapons, automatic weapons.

19       Q.   To your knowledge --

20       A.   Automatic rifles.

21       Q.   To your knowledge were any measures taken even at any time after

22    the incident against these acts of indiscipline?

23       A.   You mean in relation to this specific incident or generally?

24       Q.   Yes, sir, in relation to this specific incident.

25       A.   As I said, there were a number of problems, major problems,

Page 3900

 1    continuing problems.  We were simply overwhelmed by all these

 2    developments.  This was a great blow to the authority of General Strugar.

 3    He was the most senior officer there, and this very much affected his

 4    military dignity and pride.

 5            Let me try to explain this.  With Montenegrins it's very difficult

 6    to take weapons away from them and send them home without their weapons.

 7       Q.   I very much appreciate your explanation.  I think you've answered

 8    your question.  Thank you very much.

 9            The various organs within which discipline is dealt in the

10    military would include what particular bodies?  If you can give a very

11    brief overview.

12       A.   In terms of disciplinary infringements, the commanders, the unit

13    commanders, would have been responsible, would have been in charge of

14    that, each in terms of their respective rank and position.  That's as far

15    as infringements and violations are concerned.  Major violations, there

16    are always military courts.  And as for criminal acts there are civilian

17    courts.  However there were major problems in the way all these

18    institutions functioned.

19       Q.   I would ask you to turn your attention to tab 11 of your binders,

20    please.

21            Admiral Jokic, before you is a document from the office of the

22    military prosecutor, and it refers to the military court in Sarajevo for a

23    violation or an indictment, rather, against an individual named

24    Veselin Simovic, a reserve soldier who was, as it goes through, accused of

25    killing civilians -- right, civilians in Kijev Do in Trebinje municipality

Page 3901

 1    on or about 13 November, 1991.  He was a member of the 2nd Operational

 2    Group.

 3            Are you aware of how many or -- are you aware of the number of

 4    indictments such as this one which may have been issued during the time

 5    period where you were in the Dubrovnik theatre?

 6       A.   Well, at least as I could see for myself by looking at the records

 7    of the military court in Podgorica or, rather, in Tivat, there were about

 8    68 indictments for crimes, and there were over 150 criminal reports for

 9    robbery mostly.  However, looking at the Sarajevo courts, I don't know

10    about that.  This was the biggest military court that we had, and it had

11    jurisdiction over the territory in which the operation around Dubrovnik

12    was taking place.

13       Q.   Did you undertake an inquiry as to investigations or prosecutions

14    in connection with any particular preparation?  Did you undertake -- did

15    you look into the number of criminal prosecutions or cases that had been

16    brought for any particular reason?

17       A.   By all means.  I was in part familiar with all of that, but I do

18    have to say that at the beginning, in the period under discussion here,

19    October, November, and December, this court, this military court in Tivat

20    had only been set up, and we were just beginning to create the conditions

21    for its work.  Therefore, the proper functioning of this court began as

22    late as December and perhaps as late as 1992, and that's when the cases

23    began to be prosecuted.  Most of those cases were in relation to looting

24    and arson.  There were several cases of people wounding each other through

25    the use of weapons.  However, looting and arson accounted for most of the

Page 3902

 1    cases.

 2       Q.   Did any of the cases you looked at deal with shelling for October,

 3    November, or December of 1991?  Death, injury, or damage from shelling,

 4    death to civilians or civilian injury, or damage to civilian objects?

 5       A.   No, we didn't have any of those.

 6       Q.   I would like to -- I'd ask you to --

 7            MS. SOMERS:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I would ask to move this

 8    document into evidence.

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

10            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P111.

11            MS. SOMERS:

12       Q.   If you would next please have a look at tab 12 of your binders.

13            Admiral, in front of you is a document dated 22nd of December,

14    1991, bearing an endorsement underneath from Colonel -- Colonel-General

15    Pavle Strugar, and it is issued -- excuse me.  It concerns dealing with

16    materials referred to as war booty or confiscated materials.  Does -- if I

17    can ask you, please, to look through the document.  What -- what

18    is -- what prohibitions are brought about, and in particular, in paragraph

19    5, what types of measures are to be taken against persons who violate the

20    particular subject matter of this order?

21       A.   This is an order by the command of the 2nd Operational Group dated

22    the 22nd of December.  This order was based on an instruction by the

23    Federal Secretary of National Defence.  It is about the use of materiel

24    and equipment in the zone of operations.  This order is for the organ for

25    civilian administration, and it tasks this specific body with a -- with

Page 3903

 1    the management and use of this material and equipment, and the commands of

 2    the 9th sector of the 2nd Corps and the republican staff of the

 3    Montenegrin Territorial Defence are ordered to cooperate with this

 4    civilian administration, but the commands of these units do not have any

 5    right to misappropriate this materiel and equipment and hand it over to

 6    anyone else.  As for those that had been taken over before should be

 7    handed over to the assembly centres by no later than the 15th of January,

 8    1992.

 9       Q.   "And if members of the armed forces and citizens who have

10    unlawfully appropriated materials -- material supplies of any kind," I'm

11    reading from paragraph 5, Admiral, "particularly weapons and ammunition

12    are to be invited in an appropriate and adequate manner to return them and

13    submit them to the assembly centre no later than the 15th of January,

14    1992, and in this case no criminal proceedings will be instituted against

15    the persons who return the material supplies."

16            Is it your understanding, Admiral, that if they do not return it

17    then criminal proceedings will be instituted?

18       A.   Yes, precisely.

19       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.

20            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask to move this document into evidence,

21    please.

22            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P112.

24            MS. SOMERS:  If you please turn your attention to tab 13 in your

25    binders.

Page 3904

 1       Q.   Admiral, do you recognise this document?

 2       A.   Yes.  This is a document of my command dated the 22nd of January,

 3    1992, and it bears my signature.

 4       Q.   And is this document in some way related to the document we just

 5    discussed?

 6       A.   Yes.  This document is actually an elaboration of the previous

 7    order of the commander of the Operative Group, and it has to do with the

 8    Vinogradi collection centre which was in my zone.  It also has to do how

 9    material supplies should be treated within Vinogradi in accordance with

10    the previous orders.  That is to say, that things are spelled out in more

11    specific terms and in greater detail.

12       Q.   When you say in accordance with the previous order, are you

13    referring to the order of the 2nd Operational Group?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Admiral, from these two documents, would you -- are you able to

16    indicate or to confirm that misappropriation of war booty was considered a

17    serious offence meriting criminal prosecution?

18       A.   Yes.

19            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask to move this document into evidence.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  That is -- that will be Prosecution Exhibit P113.

22            MS. SOMERS:

23       Q.   Admiral, was there a military police unit in the 2nd Operational

24    Group to facilitate or deal with disciplinary measures?

25       A.   The 2nd Operational Group did not have any military police.  As

Page 3905

 1    far as I know, they only had a reinforced platoon of military police to

 2    provide security for the command post and to provide security for various

 3    facilities but primarily for its own command.  It's only corps and

 4    commands that had military police and probably the republican staff of the

 5    TO but in Podgorica.

 6       Q.   Given the -- well, what type of numbers were in this platoon?  Can

 7    you give numbers of military police to handle the matters in the

 8    2nd Operational Group?

 9       A.   Well, I don't think they had more than 30 to 40 military

10    policemen, and it was only for meeting their own needs of their command

11    post.

12       Q.   Given the indiscipline that you have described in the

13    2nd Operational Group, were you of the view that there were sufficient

14    military police to deal with those issues?

15       A.   No.  That was the greatest problem, the most pressing problem of

16    all units.  That's the way I felt it was.  Had I had a battalion or,

17    rather, had I had a regiment of the military police, even that would have

18    been insufficient.

19       Q.   Who could have requested more military police units in the 2OG?

20       A.   Well, I think that all subordinate commands tried to resolve that

21    by putting forth a request for additional mobilisation or military police

22    reinforcements that would come from another army.  However, this quite

23    simply did not happen.  We never succeeded in achieving that.

24            Then I turned company Bar, a Territorial Defence unit, into a

25    military police company, and with a bit of training and having given them

Page 3906

 1    police uniforms, we gave them police tasks.

 2       Q.   Who in the 2nd Operational Group had the authority, at the highest

 3    level, who had the authority to seek more military police in circumstances

 4    which you indicate merited having more police?

 5       A.   Well, the commander of the 2nd Operative Group.

 6       Q.   And that would have been?

 7       A.   General Pavle Strugar.

 8       Q.   Within the 2nd Operational Group, can you discuss, please,

 9    General Strugar's capacity to remove and replace unit commanders in the

10    interests of maintaining discipline?

11       A.  Well, according to the law, the commander of the Second Operational

12    Group was a commander at army level. He could have suspended or replaced a

13    subordinate commander, anybody.  That's the kind of authority he had.  Any

14    subordinate person he had.  He had the right to replace anyone in any

15    superior -- subordinate unit or command.  Of course, provided that he

16    reported to his superior command, that is to say the chief of

17    General Staff.  If it had to do with higher-ranking officers, that is.

18       Q.   Did General Strugar, as the commander of the 2nd Operational

19    Group, exercise this authority to remove where necessary?

20       A.   I think he did involving a few examples, but I'm not sure.  I

21    heard that as for the commander of a battalion of the Trebinje Brigade,

22    I'm not sure what this was for, and I don't know whether it was for a

23    longer period of time or a shorter period of time, but I think the answer

24    is yes.  I don't know of any examples, though.  I think it was the

25    commander of the 2nd Battalion or the 1st Battalion of the

Page 3907

 1    Trebinje Brigade.

 2       Q.   Do you know whether or not General Strugar removed any officers

 3    from the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd or Trebinje Brigade?

 4       A.   While I was at my command post, no.  I do not have any such

 5    information.

 6       Q.   I would ask you to turn your attention, please, to tab 14.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  It is, Your Honours, just to remind you, it is

 8    already admitted as P45, but it is in your binders.

 9       Q.   Admiral, this is a document issued by -- this is a

10    document - excuse me - issued by the General Staff of the SFRY,

11    Lieutenant Blagoje Adzic, and it concerns -- it is dated 29 September

12    1991.  It concerns reporting, transmission of information.  Are you

13    familiar with the content of this document?

14       A.   Yes, I am.

15       Q.   Looking to the first paragraph, if perhaps you might be able to

16    assist with some of the abbreviations where it says "commands of VO, RV."

17    If you would be so good enough to read that first paragraph so that we

18    understood the -- translate the abbreviations.

19            If you could read it out loud, Admiral.

20       A.   Yes.

21            "Number 1, commands of military districts and the air force and

22    the anti-aircraft defence are to submit regular combat reports.  Reports

23    are to be submitted on the basis of regular combat reports of the brigades

24    and the corps from three levels down (brigade-regiment, independent

25    battalion-division) for all units and detached formations."

Page 3908

 1            And then attachment 40 is explained, these tables according to

 2    which the report is being submitted.  It says:  "Regular combat reports

 3    are to be submitted in line with the attachment of the instructions of the

 4    work of the commands, attachment number 40, besides the regular combat

 5    reports submit extraordinary reports."  That is the point.

 6       Q.   And, Admiral, it does address the daily submission of reports by

 7    2100 hours, and the compilation or compiling of combat documents in line

 8    with instructions.

 9            Can you tell us, please, what did this mean for the

10    2nd Operational Group?  How did this translate into reporting for the

11    2nd Operational Group?

12       A.   Well, or subordinate commands of the 2nd Operational Group submit

13    to the 2nd Operational Group its combat reports for its units.  The

14    independent battalion was the lowest-ranking unit within the command for

15    which information is provided.  That is to say everything that is of

16    relevance to the unit had to be reported.  The operations team, the duty

17    team in the staff of the 2nd Operational Group collected these reports

18    from all the units involved and they compiled their own collective report

19    and sent it to the General Staff.  That was it, briefly.  To the first

20    administration of the General Staff, that is.

21       Q.   Do you view this then as an indication of, in this instance in the

22    2nd Operational Group, General Strugar's responsibility as the commander

23    of the Operational Group to keep an efficient flow of information to the

24    highest levels of command as well as from the subordinate levels?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 3909

 1       Q.   Thank you.  Based on what you have just answered, would that also

 2    follow upon inquiry or information about disciplinary matters in

 3    subordinate units of the 2nd Operational Group that that information would

 4    flow back to General Strugar?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   I would ask you, please, to turn to tab -- excuse me.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I just want to check if I've

 8    omitted anything.

 9                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

10            MS. SOMERS:

11       Q.   Pursuant to your answer about responsibility with indiscipline and

12    the responsibility to act on information coming up, on -- in early

13    November, I believe you may have said the 2nd of November, you had

14    proposed to General Strugar to withdraw the 472nd Brigade because of

15    indiscipline.  You indicated that he did not execute your proposal in its

16    entirety and that the 3rd Battalion was left behind.  Now, does that

17    conform with acting on the information flow as is described in this order?

18       A.   Yes, but that's not quite the way I had put it. Can I explain very

19    briefly now?

20       Q.   Briefly.

21       At the meeting of the 2nd of November, on the basis of

22    requests in terms of how future grouping and use of combat forces should

23    be applied, I suggested that the entire brigade be taken out because it

24    was unnecessary to have a big unit there on the outskirts of Dubrovnik

25    creating problems.  Not only because of a lack of discipline.  Quite

Page 3910

 1   simply, it was not needed.  There was no military necessity for it to be

 2   there.  And General Strugar needed that kind of a unit in the valley of

 3   the Neretva River.  That was the main reason.  That was accepted for the

 4   entire brigade on the 2nd of November. That's the only thing I wish to add.

 5       Q.   Thank you for your clarification, Admiral.  Turning to tab 15,

 6    please.

 7            Admiral Jokic, this is a directive issued again from

 8    Colonel-General Blagoje Adzic dated the 12th of October, and it deals with

 9    a number of issues, but in particular I want to turn your attention to the

10    last paragraph of the document.  First of all, are you familiar, have you

11    made yourself at any time familiar with the content of this document?

12       A.   I'm not sure whether I saw the integral document, the document in

13    its entirety, but it is certain that part of this document was given to

14    the lower commands.  Maybe the whole document was read out, but I'd have

15    to read through the whole document.  By way of information, I am familiar

16    with all of this.  It all looks familiar.

17       Q.   And let me please turn your attention to the last paragraph which

18    states:  "All armed units, be they JNA, TO, or volunteer units must act

19    under the single command of the JNA.  They should behave and act according

20    to the rules that apply in the army, showing full respect for military

21    discipline, hierarchy, military laws and regulations in all circumstances

22    of life, work, and combat activities.  These positions should immediately

23    be communicated to the JNA officers and subsequently in the most suitable

24    manner to soldiers and civilians.  This should be illustrated by the most

25    important experience of one's own unit in the past and an outline of the

Page 3911

 1    immediate and forthcoming tasks."

 2            Does that reflect, Admiral, the importance of General Adzic's

 3    order of a single and uniform command within the JNA.  Singular - I'm

 4    corrected by my colleague - singular and unified command in the JNA.

 5       A.   Yes, that's right.

 6            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask to move to this document into evidence,

 7    please.

 8            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P114.

10            MS. SOMERS:

11       Q.   As a general proposition, Admiral, in the context of singular and

12    unified command, what in your view are the possibilities of a battalion

13    commander initiating combat activity without authority from the relevant

14    command?

15       A.   Well, that could not happen in any combat variant in accordance

16    with our military hierarchy and in accordance with the rules of combat use

17    of our units, I mean the JNA.

18       Q.   Were you aware, Admiral Jokic, of any politicians in the region

19    where the Dubrovnik operation was being carried out who either interfered,

20    influenced, or worked closely with the 2nd Operational Command?

21       A.   Well, I can only know about the mayor of Trebinje, Mr. Vucurevic,

22    Bozidar Vucurevic.  There were probably other politicians there, but I did

23    not go very often, so I don't know.  He was there often, though, and he

24    was present in the media, in the newspapers, on television all the time.

25    That's how I know.

Page 3912

 1       Q.   Admiral, when I phrased my question to you I used erroneously the

 2    phrase 2nd Operational Command.  I would correct that to read

 3    2nd Operational Group.

 4            Mr. Vucurevic was a mayor, did you indicate, a mayor?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Was he affiliated with any political party, if you know?

 7       A.   I think he was a member of the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party.

 8       Q.   Are you aware of any views that Mr. Vucurevic held concerning

 9    Dubrovnik?

10       A.   He had radical views in terms of his attitude towards Dubrovnik

11    and resolving the crisis concerning Dubrovnik.  He thought that if

12    Dubrovnik would not accept any demands, the problem would have to be

13    resolved by force.  I know that he also had negotiations before.  I found

14    this in documents, but it was also carried by the press.  He negotiated

15    with the mayor of Dubrovnik, but the announcements he made on radio and TV

16    were well known, that the war against Croats had to be won, and his

17    slogans were very vehement ones and very nationalistic.  This influenced

18    junior officers and soldiers.

19       Q.   Junior officers and soldiers where, Admiral?

20       A.   Well, in the area of Trebinje.  I mean the Dubrovnik operation

21    zone, but specifically, of course, it had to do with Trebinje for the most

22    part.  That is where most of the army was concentrated, those troops that

23    took part in the operations that is.

24       Q.   And those persons would be part of the 2nd Operational Group?

25       A.   Yes.  He was the closest to Kovacevic and Komar who was Chief of

Page 3913

 1    Staff of the 472nd Brigade, and he was actually friends with them.

 2    Probably with others too, but I know about these two.

 3       Q.   When you say close to Kovacevic, which Kovacevic are you referring

 4    to?

 5       A.   I mean the commander of the 3rd Battalion of the Trebinje Brigade.

 6       Q.   You mentioned Komar and Kovacevic.  What ethnicity are Komar and

 7    Kovacevic?

 8       A.   They are Montenegrins from Niksic.

 9       Q.   Did you know whether or not Mr. Vucurevic was close with

10    General Strugar?

11       A.   I cannot say that.  I don't think so.  But since he is a very

12    forceful personality and he thought that as a politician he should

13    exercise influence over the military too.  He would very often come to the

14    command of the 2nd Operational Group, and he often spend time with the

15    officers and soldiers of the command of the 2nd Operational Group

16    including General Strugar, but I don't think that he could directly

17    influence the reaching of decisions, but indirectly he probably had some

18    influence.

19       Q.   Was it a usual procedure to frequent the headquarters of the armed

20    forces, for civilians to frequent the headquarters of the armed forces?

21       A.   Well, civilians, as far as war is concerned or, rather, a command

22    that is at war, there is a special procedure involved.  However, this was

23    the president of a municipality, who beforehand was president of the Serb

24    autonomous province of Herzegovina which was a broader community of all

25    the municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was a prominent personality,

Page 3914

 1    a prominent figure, a man who always wore camouflage uniform with the

 2    insignia of a major as if he were involved in a war, as if he were waging

 3    war.  So the rules that others were bound by did not apply to him.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us, if you know, what was Mr. Vucurevic's attitude

 5    toward the continued existence of Dubrovnik as part of Croatia?

 6       A.   Well, I believe his position was that Dubrovnik should have some

 7    autonomy, whether as part of Croatia or outside Croatia, I don't know.

 8    I'm not familiar with the details.  But I assume that he wanted to have

 9    Dubrovnik as a town, since together with -- since it had economic links

10    with Trebinje and the hinterland, he wanted some form of autonomy for

11    Dubrovnik, I assume.  This is the nebulous idea of some form of autonomy

12    for Dubrovnik as a republic.  I think he was in favour of that.

13            MS. SOMERS:  I ask you to turn to tab 38 in your binders.

14       Q.   Admiral, before you is a letter from Bozidar Vucurevic addressed

15    to -- first of all, dated 7 November 1991, addressed to the chief of

16    headquarters in Belgrade to the military naval command of the

17    Boka Kotorska region, to the 2nd Operative or Operational Group command in

18    Trebinje and to the SFRY Presidency in Belgrade.

19            Would you tell us, please, what this letter says and what impact

20    you perceive it to have been meant to have on the operations in the

21    Dubrovnik area?

22       A.   This letter is a classic example of his interference with control

23    and command and the way the units were being used.  This is a letter that

24    he addressed to the Presidency and to the Chief of the General Staff.  He

25    claims that the Croats were targeting our units from the Old Town and from

Page 3915

 1    the front end, killing our soldiers.  He requests an energetic showdown,

 2    as he says, with the Croatian troops.  In this letter, he ask that more

 3    energetic reserve officers take over the command, as that the JNA was not

 4    energetic enough in the way it waged its war, not forceful enough.  He

 5    even finishes off by saying that something should be changed.  He refers

 6    to the people who will probably one day judge those who are not doing

 7    as -- what they should be doing, in his opinion.

 8       Q.   Did this type of letter, perhaps even this letter, and the, as you

 9    call it, classical example of interference with control and command have

10    an impact on activities or decisions made or revisited in the Dubrovnik

11    theatre by the 2nd Operational Group?

12       A.   Yes.  I think that this was an influential thing.  I read the

13    report.  I considered it totally unnecessary.  I -- I didn't pay attention

14    to it on the day when I read the letter.  I thought it was just something

15    very silly.  I was, however, mistaken because as early as the 10th with

16    the soldiers in Trebinje, my command had been blocked, laid siege to by

17    the reserve officer and calls were made for my resignation the because of

18    the lack of energy I displayed in the way I waged war on Croatia.  The

19    reservists requested that the commander be removed.  Therefore, this

20    certainly deserved serious consideration.  The negative effect that he had

21    on the morale and on the command.  That's as far as his negative influence

22    is concerned.

23            I believe that as far as lower-ranking officers were concerned,

24    Captain Kovacevic and Major Komar, this had very negative influence.

25       Q.   I'd like to turn your attention now to an area -- excuse me.  Yes.

Page 3916

 1            MS. SOMERS:  I request that this document be submitted into

 2    evidence.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P115.

 5            MS. SOMERS:

 6       Q.   Looking now at the Croatian forces, are you able to give an

 7    assessment of the strength of the Croatian forces defending Dubrovnik

 8    during the period of 8 October through 6 December 1991?  In particular,

 9    can you compare them with the forces of the JNA both in terms of numbers

10    and heavy weaponry?  Numbers of troops and heavy weaponry.

11       A.   As for the strength of Croatian paramilitary units, all I can say

12    is that after I arrived at the front on the 8th of October, based on all

13    the intelligence reports and military evaluations that I had, it was our

14    assessment at my command that at the beginning while the operation and the

15    valley of Konavle was under way on the approach road to Dubrovnik, there

16    were between 1.500 and 2.000 such troops, rather, paramilitary units,

17    soldiers.  Later when all those elements had withdrawn to Dubrovnik from

18    the surroundings when the town was blocked both from sea and land, above

19    all from land, on the 1st it was also blocked from the sea, we believe

20    that in the town itself following mobilisation and, after all, the groups

21    of the national -- all the groups of the National Guard and the volunteers

22    and the police troops as well as the national defence, that's what they

23    called it, had been assembled, our assessment was that there were between

24    2.500 and 3.000 soldiers there.

25            They broke through the siege, and they managed to

Page 3917

 1    infiltrate a company from the Ston and Metkovic areas into the town.  As

 2    for their weapons, they had simple automatic weapons, a lot of infantry

 3    ammunition, unlimited quantities, I should say.

 4            As for the artillery, mostly they had weaker weapons.  They had

 5    82-millimetre mortars.  They had between 10 and 20 of those.

 6    120-millimetre mortars, we believe between six and ten pieces.  We had

 7    seized four of those of German make along an approach road to Dubrovnik.

 8    They had brought four cannon in from Korcula and four more from Sipan and

 9    had those deployed all over Dubrovnik.  They had the 20-millimetre two and

10    three barrels, between 10 and 20 pieces.  They had rockets.  They had the

11    Maljutkas.  At the beginning they had several launchers, and they had the

12    Armbrust that they had managed to smuggle into the city.  These are German

13    anti-armour rockets.

14            They had two vehicles, one armoured vehicle that they built

15    themselves and another one they somehow fangled together later.

16            As for the ratios in relation to our forces, it's very difficult

17    to provide accurate figures, but are we talking about all units or only

18    about the units in the Dubrovnik zone?

19       Q.   In terms of -- just the Dubrovnik area.

20       A.   In the Dubrovnik area, if you put all the units together, I think

21    the result would be between ten and 12.000 in the period where, for

22    example, if you take the beginning of November, the 472nd Brigade was in

23    the blockade together with the battalions and the Territorial Defence.  I

24    think there were about 12.000.  That was the maximum number, which then

25    dropped to about 3 or 4.000.  That's after the entire brigade had pulled

Page 3918

 1    out with the exception of the 3rd Battalion.

 2       Q.   Excuse me.  Do I understand you correctly then, you're talking

 3    about forces of the JNA in the 2nd Operational Group?

 4       A.   No, only in the Dubrovnik area.  As for the 2nd Operational Group,

 5    if you look at that --

 6       Q.   I'm sorry, no.  Restrict it to Dubrovnik, but you're speaking of

 7    the JNA forces?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.

10            JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, Ms. Somers?

11            MS. SOMERS:  If I could just have one more question along this

12    line I think it would be helpful.

13       Q.   Given the numbers you have shown and what you've described, I

14    believe, as weaker weaponry, did the Croatian forces represent a real

15    threat to the JNA?

16       A.   In terms of assessing their combat strength in relation to our

17    forces, we cannot really say that they posed a realistic threat, that they

18    could stop our attack, that they could defeat us or inflict heavy losses

19    on us, certainly not.  But in terms of the way they used their resources,

20    they could inflict losses on us by acts of provocation, by ambush, and

21    especially following cease-fires when those acts of provocation were

22    carried out, they would attack us and then they would run.  The JNA unit

23    would then strike back and would be blamed for that, and then they would

24    react vehemently to that.  So that was the kind of system they used.

25       Q.   Was General Strugar aware of the discrepancy in the strength of

Page 3919

 1    the two forces, in other words, the forces of the Croatian side and the

 2    forces, his forces, General Strugar's forces in the Dubrovnik area?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4            MS. SOMERS:  This would be a convenient time.  Thank you very

 5    much.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  We will have now a 20-minute break.

 7                          --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

 8                          --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Somers.

10            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Admiral Jokic, according to information which you may have had

12    while participating in operations around the Dubrovnik area, were there

13    any heavy weapons positions, military installations, or other military

14    activity in the Old Town during the period 7 or 8 October to the end of

15    December 1991?

16       A.   We suspected especially our lower-ranking officers who were active

17    around Dubrovnik along the approach roads that even in the Old Town there

18    were armed elements that were active as well as some weapons.  There was a

19    permanent suspicion with regard to some bits of information that were

20    attained from refugees, but that was no reliable source of information.

21    It was ascertained, however, that there was firing from the town walls and

22    the towers surrounding the Old Town.  There was also a vehicle with a

23    weapon mounted on it that occasionally fired from the Old Town.  It was

24    moving about in order to avoid being located.

25            Along the approach to the walls itself, there were between four

Page 3920

 1    and five 82-millimetre mortars positioned and one 120-millimetre weapon.

 2    Later on, there were fewer and fewer of those, especially once we had come

 3    very close to the town.  There was only that vehicle that I referred to

 4    firing from the Old Town itself.

 5       Q.   Did you learn of the vehicle from first-hand knowledge or from

 6    some source after, well after, the incident?  After the time of the

 7    indictment, rather.

 8       A.   I had reliable information on the basis of a testimony by

 9    Colonel Marinovic who was the commander of the town's defence.  However,

10    our sources kept reporting that there were weapons showing up every now

11    and then, weapons that were being used.

12       Q.   When you -- I'm sorry, but when you say "testimony by

13    Colonel Marinovic," what are you referring to?

14       A.   I mean his testimony, the map that he had on which he drew or

15    marked the positions of their guns in Dubrovnik itself and around the

16    Old Town.

17       Q.   In which case are you referring or to which are you referring,

18    Admiral, when you say "testimony"?

19       A.   I'm referring to the first indictment that we had in this case.

20       Q.   Are you aware or are you able to give the, if any, locations of

21    the 82-millimetre mortars and the 120-millimetre weapon you referred to?

22    Particularly the ones you said close to Old Town, to the town.

23       A.   It was established that throughout the duration of the Dubrovnik

24    operation there were four 82-millimetre mortars in the Bogisic park, which

25    is only 300 metres away from the Pile town gate, and the 120-millimetre

Page 3921

 1    mortar was located in the park near the old hospital at about 250 or 300

 2    metres from the walls of the Old Town.

 3            This vehicle shuttled between the two gates via the main street,

 4    the Stradun, and sometimes they would fire a volley or two.

 5       Q.   Were you aware at the time of the UNESCO-protected status of the

 6    Old Town?

 7       A.   Absolutely.

 8       Q.   Was it known to the troops in the region as well that Dubrovnik,

 9    the Old Town, was a protected area?

10       A.   Absolutely.  You could see UNESCO flags clearly displayed on the

11    walls and turrets.

12       Q.   Excuse me just a second.  Just taking you back for a moment when

13    you said that the vehicle shuttled between the two gates via the main

14    street, the Stradun, did you know this firsthand or did you hear it from

15    some other source?

16       A.   We knew this for sure.  We learned this for sure later on, but

17    even during the operations we had information reports that this vehicle

18    was moving up and down the Stradun.  And you could see this from an

19    elevation named Zarkovica, which is just above the Old Town.

20       Q.   So you're indicating that from Zarkovica you could see things on

21    the Stradun?

22       A.   Absolutely.

23       Q.   Is there an unobstructed view from Zarkovica to the Old Town of

24    Dubrovnik?

25       A.   Yes.  You could see the Old Town very clearly indeed.  The

Page 3922

 1    elevation was between 250 and 350 metres high, and the distance between

 2    the elevation and the Old Town was between 2 and 3 kilometres.

 3       Q.   Having acknowledged that the Old Town was an UNESCO-protected

 4    location, did you ever consider the Old Town as a permissible military

 5    target?

 6       A.   No.  We knew that it could never be a military target.

 7       Q.   Were you aware that civilians were present in the Old Town either

 8    living and/or working there?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   I would like to turn your attention now to tab 16, please.

11    Admiral, can you comment, please.  You indicated -- before you proceed,

12    you indicated that you were aware or that the Old Town was never a

13    military target.  Was this communicated to all troops in the Dubrovnik

14    area as well?

15       A.   Yes.  All the units were duly informed down to the lowest-ranking

16    units.

17       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.  Looking at a document which is issued.  It is

18    an order from the Chief of the General Staff of the OS of the armed forces

19    of the SFRY.  It is dated 14 October 1991.  Are you familiar with the

20    content of this order, Admiral?

21       A.   Yes, fully.

22       Q.   And looking into the body of the order under the words where it

23    says "Order," particularly at paragraph 3, I turn your attention to the

24    language:  "Any attack on cultural property and other protected buildings

25    (churches, historical monuments, medical institutions and suchlike) is

Page 3923

 1    strictly forbidden except where units of the JNA come under fire from such

 2    buildings.  In such cases, the responsible officer shall, prior to opening

 3    fire and in a suitable manner, warn the opposite side to cease firing and

 4    leave the building."

 5            Further in paragraph 4 -- actually, if you continue after that it

 6    discusses a policy of reporting and documentation and that:  "The military

 7    judicial organs should have every violation of the rules of international

 8    humanitarian law in the units of operation reported."  That is paragraph

 9    4.  It is further ordered in paragraph 5 to "circulate this order to all

10    officers and soldiers of the armed forces of the SFRY as well as to all

11    the members of other units engaging in combat in the area of -- areas of

12    JNA operations."

13            Was this order followed in the Dubrovnik area?

14       A.   Well, there were certain aberrations in two specific cases that I

15    know, two serious incidents in November and December, between the 10th and

16    the 12th of November and on the 6th of December.

17       Q.   We will get to those a bit later, Admiral.  Thank you.

18            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask to move this document into evidence,

19    please.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P116.

22            MS. SOMERS:

23       Q.   I would ask you to please turn your attention to tab 17.  This is

24    a document dated 7 November 1991, Admiral, and it is from -- it bears the

25    endorsement of an assistant commander for moral guidance and legal

Page 3924

 1    affairs, a major General Vidak Vukovic of the 1st Military District, and I

 2    want to call your attention to the theme of it which is a report on the

 3    protection of cultural heritage monuments in Yugoslavia.

 4            In particular -- First of all, are you familiar generally with the

 5    content of this directive?

 6       A.   Yes, I am.  Maybe I did not receive this particular report, but

 7    essentially I'm familiar with its content.  This speaks about the 1954

 8    Hague Convention and other details that were familiar to the command

 9    personnel.

10       Q.   In the body of the document, Admiral, does it reflect the

11    protections that are to be afforded to cultural property in the event of

12    armed conflict?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   In particular, if you turn to your attention to the second page,

15    which is a carryover from paragraph 2 where it refers to the convention

16    concerning the protection of the world cultural and natural heritage

17    adopted in - sorry - in 1972 and ratified by Yugoslavia in 1975,

18    regulating issues of compiling the world heritage list to include property

19    and areas of global significance in the realm of cultural and natural

20    property to be preserved for future generations.  Among UN members,

21    Yugoslavia belongs to the ranks of countries with a large number of places

22    and properties included in the world heritage list, and it cites as the

23    first example, A, the Old City of Dubrovnik.

24            At the bottom, just above the endorsement, above the name, the

25    direction is:  "Make certain that the officers and soldiers know of this

Page 3925

 1    situation report and the above order of the chief of the Main Staff of the

 2    armed forces of the SFRY through the provision of information and direct

 3    work in all units especially in the units engaged on the war fronts and in

 4    all units sent to the war fronts."

 5            You indicated, Admiral, that you were familiar with -- generally

 6    the content of this document.  Was there --

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   -- an extra -- was there an extra effort made to impress and to

 9    order the units in the Dubrovnik area under the command and control of the

10    2nd Operational Group to be mindful of the protected status of cultural

11    institutions, cultural heritage generally, and particularly the Old City

12    of Dubrovnik which was in their area of operation?

13       A.   Yes.  The units were informed about this.  They were familiarised,

14    and this was obvious in the case of all the units that were near the town

15    of Dubrovnik itself.

16            MS. SOMERS:  I ask to have the document admitted into evidence.

17            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P117.

19            MS. SOMERS:

20       Q.   Would you please turn your attention to tab 18.  Do you recognise

21    this order, this combat order, Admiral Jokic?

22       A.   Yes.  This is a combat order produced by my command, dated the

23    11th of November 1991, and I signed this.

24       Q.   And it is addressed to the 2nd Operational Group, information 9th

25    VPS, and it mentions in its first point that the 472nd Motorised Brigade

Page 3926

 1    will continue in its attack in certain areas.  It goes on with different

 2    aspects of combat issues and -- and I turn your attention to paragraph 6

 3    on the last page of the order.  And would you please indicate what is in

 4    your order concerning the Old Town of Dubrovnik.

 5       A.   Item 6 says that units are forbidden to open fire on the Old Town

 6    except in case of lethal fire coming from the area on our units.

 7       Q.   Is the term "lethal fire" a term that is used as a -- sort of a

 8    general term or a term that comes out of military rhetoric, military

 9    parlance?

10       A.   Well, yes.  If losses in our parts become unacceptable, if there

11    is lethal fire coming in, lethal fire is considered to be the fire that

12    inflicts heavy losses on an units.  It was only in this case that they

13    were allowed to fire back.  This was an exception that a commander would

14    have been authorised to apply in an extreme situation, in extremis, as the

15    expression goes, but not usually.  This would be extremely risky for the

16    unit in question.  It would be extremely risky for the unit in question

17    not to be successful in defending itself.

18       Q.   Were any procedures put in place to deal or to respond to lethal

19    fire, for example, initially a warning?

20       A.   Yes, we did have a situation like that.  Actually, the first

21    situation on the 11th of November, on this very date, when a warning was

22    sent to the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff that civilians, citizens of Dubrovnik,

23    should be removed from the weapons in town that were being used to fire in

24    order to reduce civilian casualties.  This was the first and only warning

25    that I can think of, the first and only warning that we sent to the

Page 3927

 1    opposite side.

 2       Q.   Can you think of any instances where lethal fire came from the Old

 3    Town?

 4       A.   No.  There were several situations where lower-ranking junior

 5    commanders were reporting about suffering lethal fire from the town itself

 6    but it was never ascertained that it was from the Old Town.  The weapons

 7    that this lethal fire was coming from was, as a rule, located outside the

 8    Old Town or at the front end, the front line of their defence.

 9       Q.   Admiral, I note the date of this order, and can you indicate or

10    can you confirm that it was issued in the midst of an operation by units

11    under your command and control, and of course the command and control of

12    the 2nd Operational Group in the Dubrovnik area?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   What was the underlying reason that you saw it necessary to issue

15    this order, particularly with respect to the protected area of Old Town?

16       A.   Well, this was meant to protect the Old Town so that it couldn't

17    be fired on except under extremely exceptional circumstances where there

18    was firing from the Old Town that was lethal for the unit.  So this was

19    the essence.  This was the fundamental meaning.

20            The first time we reached a situation like that was on this date

21    when my units were active, but up to that point we had no combat

22    operations in that direction, at least not as concerns my units.  This was

23    merely a form of providing security for the units, for those units that

24    were operating in the immediate surroundings of the Old Town.

25       Q.   When you say "at least not as concerns my units," you mean that

Page 3928

 1    there may have been other combat operations under the 2nd Operational

 2    Group, but not necessarily by units at the time subordinated to yourself?

 3       A.   Yes.  Before this date, before I took over as the commander of the

 4    Trebinje Brigade, there had been operations the whole time for 26 days

 5    when my units were not in the area.

 6       Q.   By this order, Admiral, are you indicating your concern and

 7    sensitivity to the need to protect the Old Town of Dubrovnik and the need

 8    to be assured that units under your command and control do the same?  In

 9    combat operations, of course.

10       A.   Yes.  Yes, that's precisely what I had in mind.

11            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask to move this document into evidence,

12    please, to have it admitted.

13            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P118.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  Before we move on from the document, I wonder,

16    Admiral, if you can clarify for me whether the --

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour.

18            JUDGE PARKER:  -- order number 6 on the last page was directed to

19    forces of the 9th Naval Sector or to all forces, that is land forces as

20    well as naval under your command.

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This order

22    pertained to all units under my command, primarily land forces, because in

23    this operation, the naval parts did not actually participate.  But of

24    course before and after that, it had to do with them as well.  There are

25    other orders pertaining to ships.

Page 3929

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Secondly, this order appears to have

 2    issued just before midnight on the 11th of November, 1991.  Was there any

 3    particular reason for the order being issued at the end of that day?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably.  Your Honour, this

 5    order was issued at 2000 hours.  As a rule, orders are issued in the

 6    evening for the following day.  However, it was necessary to do it this

 7    way, in this particular instance because the previously assigned tasks

 8    were not carried out.  So in order to speed up the operations for this

 9    date, the 11th of November, things had to be handled this way.  This has

10    to do with bringing in a unit, the 3rd Battalion, which was brought into

11    action for the first time, the 3rd Battalion of the Trebinje Brigade.

12            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

13            MS. SOMERS:

14       Q.   If you would please turn your attention to document -- I'm sorry,

15    to tab 19.

16            Admiral, before we address the document that I've just referred

17    to, I'd like to ask you as a follow-up to Judge Parker's question, you

18    said in order to speed up the operations for this date, the 11th of

19    November, things had to be handled in -- handled this way.  This had to do

20    with bringing in a unit, the 3rd Battalion, which was brought into the

21    action for the first time.

22            Now, was there a particular concern, a safety concern for the Old

23    Town that you are -- that you are linking to the 3rd Battalion of the

24    Trebinje Brigade?

25       A.   In the operations between the 8th and the 10th, when the mixed

Page 3930

 1    detachment of the Territorial Defence participated, too, we had a weaker

 2    unit which had sustained significant losses.  I established it only in

 3    order to prevent the use of strong artillery, because previously we did

 4    not talk about these operations, actually.  Before the 11th of November, a

 5    unit of the Trebinje Brigade, the 4th battalion had a few provocative

 6    actions that they took in that area vis-a-vis the Old Town or, rather,

 7    against the hotels outside the Old Town.  In order to prevent the

 8    repetition of these provocations and the use of strong artillery that this

 9    battalion did have, I suggested to the command of the 2nd Operational

10    Group to have this 4th battalion taken out and this mixed detachment of

11    the Territorial Defence was established in its place with weak artillery

12    which could not cause great damage and at a longer distance because the

13    range of their mortars was three kilometres.  However, this unit suffered

14    losses.  There was a halt in the operation itself, and then a decision was

15    passed in the 2nd Operational Group to bring in the 3rd Battalion of the

16    Trebinje Brigade, and of course the 3rd light brigade which was a unit

17    which was brought into the operations aimed at taking Komolac, which is

18    where the source of Rijeka Dubrovacka is.

19       Q.   So the arrival, as I understand you and correct me if I'm wrong,

20    the arrival or the introduction of the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Brigade

21    has some bearing on your issuing this order concerning the protection of

22    the Old Town?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   You referred also to the 4th Battalion, and I think you said

25    provocative actions.  In what month are you -- do you refer?  To what

Page 3931

 1    month do you refer about these provocative actions?

 2       A.   This was between the 2nd and 4th of November.  That's when the

 3    Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik protested.  I wrote a statement to

 4    Admiral Brovet, the deputy Federal Secretary for National Defence about

 5    these provocations.  Afterwards I suggested to have this battalion

 6    withdrawn because with its artillery it could cause certain damage.  That

 7    was a possibility, but that was not our task.

 8       Q.   Not your task because it was not under your command and control at

 9    the time?

10       A.   Yes.  I mean, what I wanted to say was that the 4th Battalion did

11    not have the task of combat action.  On the 25th of October there was a

12    cease-fire, and this cease-fire went on all the way up to the 8th of

13    November officially.  In that period of time, between the 2nd of November

14    and the 4th of November, there were these provocations.  There was a lack

15    of discipline in that battalion, and sporadic gunfire occurred which did

16    not damage the Old Town, but there was the possibility of incurring

17    further damage in view of the artillery that they had.

18            The 2nd Operational Group had not ordered any action.  There was a

19    lull then.  There was a cease-fire.

20       Q.   On the 2nd of November, however, the 4th Battalion was part of the

21    Trebinje Brigade which was at that time under your command and control?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Now, we're going back to the document at tab 19.  The document is

24    dated 24 October 1991, and it is -- it bears the name commander

25    Major General Pavle Strugar.  Are you familiar with this particular

Page 3932

 1    document, Admiral, this order?

 2       A.   Yes.  Yes, I did receive this order.

 3       Q.   Can you take a look, please, at paragraph 3, and I draw your

 4    attention to:  "Further to continue to improve the conditions of the

 5    accommodation and reliable protection of the people focusing on creation

 6    of the overall superiority over the enemy forces and their unconditional

 7    surrender.  Further to prevent any" -- sorry -- "further to prevent any

 8    attacks on the old part of Dubrovnik."

 9            Do you know the circumstances or the purpose behind this order of

10    General Strugar's?

11       A.   The point of this order was the following:  That was the first

12    time that the units of the 9th sector were linked up, my units and those

13    of the Trebinje Brigade, which was until then under the direct control of

14    the 2nd Operational Group.  Now they needed to take actions together or,

15    rather, the brigade came under the command of the 9th sector.  And he

16    calls upon me and the commander of the brigade to come to his command post

17    to prepare for further action.

18       Q.   This was issued on the 24th of October, 1991.  Was that during a

19    time of combat operations in the 2nd Operational Group?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Admiral, just to assist us in looking at the Serbo-Croatian

22    version of the document, the one you have, under paragraph 2, I believe

23    there may be, and I want to draw the attention of Your Honours to it,

24    there may be a typographical error not corrected in the English where it

25    says:  "The enemy was caused greater losses or bigger losses in manpower,"

Page 3933

 1    et cetera, et cetera, and 9 VPS forces captured over -- it says 450,

 2    but -- I'm sorry.  Stricken to 45.

 3            Is that correct, Admiral?  What does it say in the Serbo-Croatian

 4    version of your document is the numbers?

 5       A.   Yes this is number 45 and 150 is crossed out.

 6            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honours, for your attention.  And the

 7    correction, I would request that it be made in English.  I apologise for

 8    it not having been caught earlier.

 9       Q.   I do turn your attention now, please, or I ask you to turn your

10    attention now to the very last line under "Support."  It's a very last

11    line of the document above what would be the sit.  It says A and then B:

12    "Artillery.  For the further actions, strictly precise the aims in the

13    region of Dubrava and Strincera and north from that line.  I strictly

14    forbid the attacks on Dubrovnik."

15            Does that refer to generally the Dubrovnik city?

16       A.   Yes.  At first all our orders included a ban on targeting the town

17    of Dubrovnik, and that ban prevailed throughout the operation for the most

18    part.  However, when artillery pieces fired from Dubrovnik outside the Old

19    Town, that is, and when this became heavy fire and when we incurred

20    losses, then orders were given to open artillery fire against those

21    targets in order to neutralise them.  That is to say, outside the Old Town

22    in order to neutralize those positions from where the shooting came from.

23    And that is why there is repetition of this order strictly forbidding

24    attacks on Dubrovnik.  But there was always an explicit ban on targeting

25    the Old Town of Dubrovnik.

Page 3934

 1            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask that this document be admitted into

 2    evidence.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P119.

 5            MS. SOMERS:

 6       Q.   Admiral, can you indicate what measures, if any, were taken by the

 7    command of the 2nd Operational Group to verify and control the

 8    implementation of the orders concerning the protection of the Old Town of

 9    do you know?

10       A.   There were a few measures at the level of the command of the

11    2nd Operational Group and at the level of my command.  As for the

12    2nd Operational Group, I know that their chief of artillery often toured

13    artillery units, and he particularly approved firing positions of heavy

14    artillery, the so-called support artillery.  Also, I think that there is a

15    particular document where the chief of artillery personally issued tasks

16    to the entire artillery of the 2nd Operational Group that was in action

17    throughout the Dubrovnik zone.  This is not customary, but in that

18    document precise orders are given to divisions and to individual batteries

19    in terms of which targets they should engage.

20            Also, there was another measure that artillery observers for

21    support artillery and for artillery for immediate fire should be on

22    elevations from which targets could be viewed.  What was forbidden was to

23    open fire at targets that could not be seen, so in such places fire could

24    not be corrected.

25            Those were the three most important measures that are referred to

Page 3935

 1    in documents.

 2       Q.   We will now go to tab 20 involving a look at a map.  I'm hopeful

 3    that we can use the ELMO as much as possible, and if that becomes

 4    difficult, I would ask that we use the map board.

 5            Before -- while the usher is putting up that or giving you the

 6    document to look at, I have a question of you.  Considering that there was

 7    no necessity for heavy weapons close to the city, why were the weapons

 8    left so close?  Was that not considered risky?

 9       A.   Yes.  That is the way it can be put, absolutely.  However, certain

10    restrictions were imposed too.  I said a short while ago that as far as

11    heavy artillery is concerned, this support artillery, their firing

12    positions were at distances from which firing positions could be targeted

13    in Dubrovnik.  They covered the entirety of Dubrovnik.  However, there was

14    also control, but it did not prove to be effective as was seen later.

15            The chief of artillery toured these positions and these artillery

16    units.

17       Q.   Would it not, Admiral, have been prudent to have withdrawn the

18    weapons given these concerns?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   You have in front of you, Admiral, a map.  I just will get my

21    copy.

22            Do you recognise this map, Admiral Jokic?

23       A.   Yes, I do recognise it, but these are units of the 2nd Corps.

24    These are not my units.  What I see on the monitor that is.

25       Q.   Admiral, we're looking -- perhaps the usher may have placed it

Page 3936

 1    not -- if it is too difficult, then it may be easier, Admiral, to have it

 2    on the board, but I'd ask you first to look at the title of the map at the

 3    very top of it if you can, the title that is written on the map.

 4       A.   Yes.  This is the working map of the command of the

 5    2nd Operational Group.

 6       Q.   Is this a headquarters map, Admiral?

 7       A.   Yes.  It is a working map of the headquarters of the

 8    2nd Operational Group.

 9       Q.   And covering what period, Admiral Jokic, if you can tell us, if

10    it's indicated there.  Perhaps it needs to be opened to the upper

11    left-hand corner.

12       A.   It is the 24th to the 26th of October.

13       Q.   Admiral, if that is not a comfortable way for you to assist us

14    with this map, perhaps it would be easier to put it on the board rather

15    than you have strain.  It may require you getting up.

16            Admiral, do you know if this map was made in the period indicated

17    on the map?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And was this map a map that you provided or handed to the officers

20    of the Office of the Prosecutor?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And did you connect -- did you have this map or get this map in

23    connection with any particular reason, perhaps personal reason?

24       A.   Well, yes.  I got the original on the basis of which I had to make

25    a copy in order to prepare my defence and to explain the course of the

Page 3937

 1    operation at the Dubrovnik front where I was commander.

 2       Q.   What does this --

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  Before we go any further, I think we need to adjust

 4    the map so that it is facing squarely toward the Bench.  In that position,

 5    it may be able to be seen by the Defence as well as the Prosecution.

 6            I think we've improved things.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you.

 8       Q.   Taking a general look at some of the markings on the map, in the

 9    upper right-hand corner, Admiral, there is a box.  Could you please

10    describe what is written in the box that has a -- actually some initials

11    and a serial number?  It's in the upper right hand -- in the upper top.

12    That's it, Admiral.

13       A.   "Survey of the balance of forces."

14       Q.   Of what formation, what units?

15       A.   Units of the 2nd Operational Group.

16       Q.   And in the column on the left-hand side, what -- what is

17    indicated?  The first column that reads down, what is --

18       A.   On the left side is the artillery, the firing pieces.

19       Q.   I think perhaps I'm not -- I may not be clear, Admiral.  Where it

20    says -- there's a box and then there are a number of columns.  The first

21    column down.  It says something about the command of the 2nd Operational

22    Group.  Can you see that, Admiral?

23       A.   Yes, yes, I can see it.  This is actually the composition of the

24    command, the officers, and also all the subordinate units, the number of

25    soldiers and the number of officers.

Page 3938

 1       Q.   Which subordinate units, Admiral, are listed as subordinate units

 2    under the command of the 2nd Operational Group?  Which ones are shown in

 3    these boxes?

 4       A.   The 2nd Corps, the 37th corps, the 472nd Brigade, and the 9th

 5    Sector.

 6       Q.   Perhaps we're looking at a different column, but if you take a

 7    look again, after the 37th Corps, what is written after the 37th Corps?

 8       A.   It says how many officers, how many junior officers, and how many

 9    soldiers there are, and then there is the grand total.

10       Q.   Admiral, where you've listed the units under the command of the

11    2nd Operational Group, you listed the 2nd Corps, it's in blue, the 37th

12    Corps in green.  Was in pink or red below 37th Corps?

13       A.   The 9th VPS in red.

14       Q.   And that is your formation over which you had command?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And the columns indicate numbers of officers.  And what does the

17    column in blue indicate?  It has a -- it's blue at the top next to

18    "officers."

19       A.   I don't think we're looking at the same thing.

20       Q.   Yes, we are.  At the top --

21       A.   The blue here is junior officers and soldiers and the red stands

22    for officers, senior officers.  Yellow is the grand total.

23       Q.   And the green is -- did you say soldiers, soldiers?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   An overall -- an overall figure, the overall total for the

Page 3939

 1    2nd Operational Group during this time period is what, Admiral?  What is

 2    the overall figure?

 3       A.   25.684.

 4       Q.   Okay.  Admiral, if we can look at -- emphasising the area that

 5    goes toward Dubrovnik, which should be in the lower part, and particularly

 6    the 9th VPS area, there is a legend on the left side of the map.  I'd ask

 7    you to look at the legend where it has as of a particular date lines

 8    indicating what?  What does the legend show us?  Where it says 24, 10 --

 9       A.   What you see here are subcolours for certain dates, the 24th, the

10    25th, and 26th.  The whole map is in relation to the colours in relation

11    to the specific locations of the units on the 24th, 25th, and 26th.

12       Q.   And does that indicate also the territories or areas held by those

13    units or captured by the units at that -- on those dates?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   I realise it is very small, but if you can indicate -- if we're

16    looking at the blue and red line which addresses the 24th of October, can

17    you take the pointer, please, and indicate what areas that encompasses on

18    the 24th of October?

19       A.   On the 24th of October, you have indication here of a line of

20    confrontation between the 2nd Corps.  It's the red line to the north and

21    to the north-west, you have units of the 2nd Corps.  To the east and to

22    the south you have units of the 472nd Brigade and the 9th VPS.  Here on

23    this map you have a reference for the 2nd Tactical Group that had been

24    disbanded on the 21st of October, and this is an error.

25       Q.   I want to focus if we can on the areas of the 472nd Brigade and on

Page 3940

 1    the 9th VPS.  So if we can start looking at these areas that are -- that

 2    have the blue and red line.  Can you just point to those, please.

 3       A.   Here you can see the town of Dubrovnik, and along the approach

 4    roads under the blockade you can see units of the 472nd brigade, this

 5    brigade's battalions:  The 1st Battalion, the 2nd Battalion, the 3rd

 6    Battalion, the 4th Battalion.

 7       Q.   If we can look at the map to determine both what units of the

 8    various battalions were in place, can we start first with -- toward the

 9    bottom where it says "4 472," the 4th Battalion of the 472nd Brigade.

10       A.   This battalion was in a position that was the nearest to Dubrovnik

11    and the Old Town, the Dubac and Brgat positions, Zarkovica.

12       Q.   Can you indicate perhaps the distances of these various places you

13    have just mentioned from Dubrovnik, and particularly from the Old Town of

14    Dubrovnik?

15       A.   The nearest elevation, Zarkovica, is about 2 kilometres.  Dubac is

16    about 3 kilometres, and Brgat about 4.

17       Q.   Can you assist us in pointing out on this map where the Old Town

18    of Dubrovnik is?

19       A.   [Indicates]

20       Q.   Are you pointing to an area that has sort of little orange dots,

21    as it were?

22       A.   Yes.  You can't see the dots here.  Well, you can actually see

23    them, but they're not very clear, but, yes, that's what I'm talking about.

24       Q.   For the record, to capture where the location is, it is to the

25    right of the printed word "Dubrovnik" on the map, and it appears to be a

Page 3941

 1    small cluster of reddish or orange-ish dots perhaps reflecting the roof

 2    tiles.

 3            On the 24th of November, then --

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Could I question what you have just said.  I think

 5    it is to the north of the printed designation "Dubrovnik" rather than to

 6    the east.

 7            MS. SOMERS:  Your Honour, I'm not clear that we're pointing at the

 8    same thing.

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  You have the printed designation "Dubrovnik," well

10    away to the south-east the island of Lokrum.

11            MS. SOMERS:  No, but above it -- if I followed the Admiral's

12    pointer correctly, there is a small area to the east of Dubrovnik, and

13    although very tiny.  See, it is east of the word Dubrovnik and it appears

14    to have little red dots.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to explain.

16    It's exactly parallel to the letter K where you have the red dots at a

17    distance from the letter K.  The distance is perhaps two centimetres.

18    That is the Old Town.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you very much, Admiral, yes, and I think we

20    now all have it.

21            MS. SOMERS:

22       Q.   Admiral, on Zarkovica, you indicated is the closest point in this

23    area.  When was -- when did Zarkovica --

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   -- become -- when was it seized by forces of the two -- of the

Page 3942

 1    2nd Operational Group?

 2       A.   On the 24th -- between the 24th and the 25th October.

 3       Q.   Are you able on this map to point out a feature known as Srdj?

 4       A.   To the north of the Old Town at a distance of one and a half

 5    centimetres.  Right to the north.

 6       Q.   Can you indicate the distance of -- of Srdj -- between Srdj and

 7    the Old Town first, and then I'll ask you about the distance between Srdj

 8    and Zarkovica?

 9       A.   Between Srdj and the Old Town, the town wall, about a kilometre

10    and a half, maybe 1.800 metres, between 1.500 and 1.800 metres.

11       Q.   And between Srdj and Zarkovica?

12       A.   Between Srdj and Zarkovica, I think less than a kilometre or about

13    a kilometre, thereabouts.  Maybe a kilometre and a half.

14       Q.   Between the Old Town and Zarkovica?

15       A.   Two kilometres.  Two something.  As the crow flies, of course.

16       Q.   Within the area that is shown in the red and blue lines where it

17    says 4th Battalion of the 472nd Brigade, can you -- can you tell us what

18    types of weaponry were at the disposal of the units of the 2nd Operational

19    Group that were there, meaning the 4th Battalion?

20       A.   The 4th Battalion had the same weapons as all the other battalions

21    establishment-wise, the same weapons as the 3rd Battalion.  One mortar

22    battery, 120-millimetres.  It had 80-millimetre mortars that were part of

23    the battery and these were usually attached to companies.  Six

24    80-millimetre mortars altogether.  It had a recoilless gun as part of the

25    anti-armour company, four such guns, three or four launchers, Maljutkas.

Page 3943

 1    It had hand-held launchers, and that was that in terms of artillery.

 2       Q.   What weapons that you have referred to belonging to this battalion

 3    were within firing range of the Old Town?

 4       A.   The Old Town was within the range of all these weapons with the

 5    exception of the recoilless guns that have very small range, between a

 6    thousand and 1.500 metres in terms of their practical range.  Mortars, 120

 7    and 82, the launchers and the Maljutkas were within range of the Old Town.

 8    However, I must point out that at the time, there was no firing.  The

 9    4th Battalion was not firing on the Old Town.  It is only hypothetically

10    speaking that we can discuss these possibilities, but this battalion had

11    been pulled out, and it did not operate.  It did not fire on the Old Town

12    while it was in the area.

13       Q.   Let us look now at the area where the 3rd Battalion of the

14    472nd Brigade is marked.  Can you first assist us with the units that

15    belong to the 3rd Battalion?  It says 1, 2, 3.  What is that referring to,

16    Admiral?

17       A.   This 1, 2, 3:  1, 2 these are the brigade's battalions just across

18    the Rijeka Dubrovacka.  This is the 1st Battalion and this is the

19    2nd Battalion.  The 3rd Battalion, in the same period of time on the 24th

20    or the 25th was withdrawn.  It was pulled out of combat because of the

21    losses that it had suffered and because the commander had been seriously

22    wounded.  It was on account of their losses that they had been pulled out,

23    and they reassembled in this area over here, and later it was sent to

24    Ivanica and Trebinje.  It was sent on leave, the entire 3rd Battalion.

25    That was after the 25th.  Or, rather, on the 25th they were already on

Page 3944

 1    leave.  They had been evacuated from the area.

 2       Q.   Can I interrupt you for a moment, Admiral, and just ask you if the

 3    numbers 1, 2, 3 are referring to battalions or to smaller units.  Perhaps

 4    there was either a mistranslation or perhaps we misunderstood you.  What

 5    size unit, what type of unit is 1, 2, 3 referring to?

 6       A.   These are battalions of the Trebinje Brigade.  It says clearly

 7    "motorised battalions."

 8       Q.   Right.  We're not looking at the same thing.  If you see on the

 9    month, Admiral, where it says 3rd Motorised Battalion, there are smaller

10    numbers where it says 1, 2, 3.  Do you see that?  Where?

11       A.   Yes, I can see that.

12       Q.   That's what I was referring to, please.  Can you tell us what

13    units those are?

14       A.   These are the companies of that same battalion.

15            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Somers, before you get more deeply into this

16    issue, I think we might have the break now.

17            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you very much.  It may be a very welcome break.

18                          --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

19                          --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes, Ms. Somers.

21            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We have been able to reduce

22    the area on the map we're looking at sufficiently so that it should fit on

23    the ELMO actually now.  It might be a bit easier.

24       Q.   Admiral Jokic, if you could turn your attention to the ELMO which

25    is the projector next to you, which will be showing up on your screen, and

Page 3945

 1    use your pointer as well, to the area where the 3rd Motorised -- the

 2    3rd Motorised Battalion of the 472nd Brigade is shown.  If you can take us

 3    through those numbers 1, 2, and 3 and tell us some type of geographical

 4    name or location where the companies are, it would be helpful.  For

 5    example, 1.  The 1st Company of the 3rd Motorised Battalion.

 6       A.   The 1st Company is in the area to the south.

 7       Q.   I think we're losing it on the map a little bit.  If we can just

 8    hold it steady.  Thank you.

 9            Sorry, Admiral, could you repeat that?  The 1st Company is where,

10    please?

11       A.   To the south of the Vrastica rock, two centimetres to the south.

12    This is the area covered by the 1st Motorised Company.

13       Q.   And the 2nd, please, the 2nd Company of the 3rd --

14       A.   The 2nd Company to the north of Vrastica, two centimetres where

15    the number 2 is on the map.

16       Q.   And is there a particular name associated with that area?

17       A.   Rijecka Glavica.  That is the name of the area.

18       Q.   And the 3rd Company of the 3rd Motorised Battalion?

19       A.   The 3rd Company is at Grbavac.  The area of Grbavac village.

20       Q.   Can you from -- either from memory or from your own knowledge as

21    well as whatever may be indicated on the map indicate the weapons that

22    belong or are at the disposal of the 1st Company?

23       A.   The 1st Company had, in addition to infantry elements,

24    82-millimetre mortars, hand-held launchers.

25       Q.   And the 2nd?

Page 3946

 1       A.   All three companies were the same establishment-wise, except for

 2    the 4th Anti-armour Company which had artillery weapons for support.  This

 3    company is in the area where you see the guns underneath the number 3.

 4    This is the firing group.

 5       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

 6       A.   In this black elliptical shape.  This is where the firing

 7    equipment is, 82-millimetre mortars, recoilless guns, and anti-armour

 8    rocket launchers.

 9       Q.   Are the weapons that you've described within firing range of the

10    Old Town?

11       A.   This was outside the firing range of the Old Town as concerns this

12    battalion because it was in an area that was not in the combat zone.  They

13    were preparing for being sent on leave.  They're not part of the combat

14    disposition.  That's why the battalion area was shown like this on the map

15    as opposed to the 4th Battalion.  This battalion is not an active

16    participant in these operations.

17       Q.   When you say this battalion you're pointing to the 4th battalion

18    of the 472nd, just for the record; is that right, Admiral?

19       A.   Yes, the third.

20       Q.   Just to help us, there is a location above the words "3rd

21    Motorised Battalion" called --

22            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may for the sake

23    of the transcript, the transcript says the 4th battalion and the Admiral

24    is talking about the 3rd Battalion, and the question of my learned friend

25    and colleague also refers to the 3rd Battalion.

Page 3947

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm talking about the

 2    3rd Battalion.  This battalion is not taking part in combat.  It has been

 3    pulled out.

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

 5            MS. SOMERS:

 6       Q.   When you say it has been pulled out, Admiral, you're talking about

 7    the dates indicated on the map; is that correct?  At that stage only?

 8       A.   Yes, as of the 25th of October.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Are you able to indicate -- where is Uskoplje, please?

10       A.   Uskoplje is to the north of this writing, the 3rd MTB.  That's to

11    the north.  This is an old railway station.  It's a crossroads.

12       Q.   Looking at the 1st -- the 1st Motorised Battalion.  If that's

13    visible.  If you could move your map so that we can show the 1st MTB.

14    Okay.  What geographical areas are associated with that battalion at this

15    particular time?  There are two companies, I believe, shown.  If you can

16    break down the areas associated with the companies that would be helpful.

17       A.   This 1st Motorised Battalion was in the Golubov Kamen area to the

18    right of the number 2 on the map, Zaplanik and Ostra Glava, the

19    1st Company.  That's the general area.  There is no detailed disposition

20    of these battalions simply because they did not take part in the action.

21    Therefore, this is not the whole area being shown here, only the two

22    forward companies are being shown.

23       Q.   If we can take a look at what is the 2nd Motorised Battalion, the

24    2 MTB.

25       A.   The 2nd Battalion was shown in all its parts.  It was in the

Page 3948

 1    Osojnik area, and what is shown here are the front parts the platoons and

 2    the companies in the Zaton area and just above Mokosica and Petrovo Selo

 3    it is marked exactly here the combat disposition all the platoons and

 4    companies at the rear in the Osojnik area.  One can see the reserve

 5    forces, or rather, the reserve companies.

 6       Q.   Did any of the companies or platoons you referred to of the

 7    2nd Battalion have weapons which were in range of the Old Town on this

 8    date or on these dates?

 9       A.   No.  From these positions, Osojnik and the positions of the

10    1st Battalion, Zaplanik, Golubov Kamen, you couldn't fire on the Old Town

11    from those positions.  First of all on account of the distance, the

12    distances involved, and also because in between there was the rock of

13    Srdj, and Dubrava.  You could fire on the new town.  You could fire on

14    Babin Kuk, on Petka, on Lapad, the new part of town and the port of Gruz,

15    but the Old Town could not be targeted from those positions.

16       Q.   There are some abbreviations, smaller abbreviations on the map

17    that maybe you can help us with.  Above 2 MTB it says ODTO.  Could you

18    explain what that is, please?  Yes, where your pointer is.

19       A.   This is the Trebinje Territorial Defence detachment which was used

20    to control territory.  It was not involved in combat operations.  There

21    must be a position here that is marked.  However, the purpose of that

22    detachment was to keep an eye on territory, to provide security for

23    facilities, to stand guard and to provide support along the possible

24    routes of operations.

25       Q.   If we move over to the right where there are names, it says 1, 2,

Page 3949

 1    BPVO and there is a symbol next to it.  What does the name mean and what

 2    does the symbol represent, please?

 3       A.   This is the anti-aircraft defence.  These are guns, 20- or

 4    40-millimetre guns.  In the combat disposition of the brigade, this unit

 5    is used for anti-aircraft defence.

 6       Q.   And to which unit is this anti-aircraft defence attached?

 7       A.   It's part of the brigade, the brigade command.  It is used to

 8    provide security in this particular situation for the artillery units, for

 9    the howitzer division, 105-millimetres.  It's to the right and above.

10    That's where it's deployed.

11       Q.   You are pointing to an area that is marked as BRA -- I think it's

12    a G or an O.  I can't see.  1?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And under, there's a line that says HAD-105.  Is that what you're

15    referring to as the howitzer division?

16       A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's the division.  This is the brigade artillery

17    group, brigade artillery group 1 minus one battery.  This is the

18    105-millimetre howitzer division, and then you have a symbol there.  These

19    are two 105-millimetre howitzer batteries, and one or two 120-millimetre

20    mortar batteries.  That's the composition of that particular division.  It

21    is used to provide support to the brigade along the main routes of the

22    attack, and it covers the directions along which the battalion is being

23    used for combat, the 1st, the 2nd, and possibly the 3rd.

24       Q.   As of this -- as of these dates from these positions, are the

25    weapons within firing range of the Old Town?

Page 3950

 1       A.   Not of the Old Town, no.  This was the far end of the range of

 2    those howitzers, and their range, their practical range, is ten

 3    kilometres, at the most 15 kilometres, which means that this unit was at

 4    the far end of the range from which you could target Dubrovnik.  Its

 5    purpose was to provide support to the 1st and 2nd Battalions and the

 6    3rd Battalion for targeting Rijeka Dubrovacka and the area between

 7    Rijeka Dubrovacka and Zaton, and it could also be used for operations

 8    along the roads leading to Dubrava but not to target Dubrovnik, not from

 9    these positions.

10       Q.   Admiral, there is a marking on the map.  It looks like a flag with

11    472 in it.  What does that represent?  It has a circle, a red circle and a

12    flag.  Yes, that's it.  What is that, please?

13       A.   This is the command post of the 472nd Brigade in the Talez area.

14    The command post at that point in time was there.  This was the command

15    post from which the brigade exercised command over its units, the

16    battalions.

17       Q.   And is that in which municipality and in which republic, please?

18       A.   This is Trebinje municipality, the Republic of Bosnia and

19    Herzegovina, but you see two signs here on the map in the Talez area.  One

20    stands for the command post and there is another sign in the Ljubovo area

21    just like the first one so it means the brigade command had two command

22    posts or rather one that was moving from one place to another.  First it

23    was in Ljubovo then it moved to Talez.

24       Q.   There is a marking on the map.  It says BR it looks like POOD.

25    It's near a circle with some additional features.  Your hand is on it now

Page 3951

 1    actually.  It's above -- it's to the right where it says 3 MTB.  It says

 2    BR POOD?  Do you see it?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Would you point it out, please, for those of us looking?  It's

 5    under -- in the area where it says 472nd -- if you leave it flat, you're

 6    fine.  There you go.  Okay.  If you could move it down.  Thank you.  What

 7    does that stand for, the BR --

 8       A.   The brigade anti-armour detachment.  The brigade anti-armour

 9    detachment.  This is the symbol that denotes it, a black ellipse, and

10    there is number one here.  This is an artillery unit for anti-armour

11    combat. Usually these are cannons, the ZIS cannons and anti-armour

12    missiles, then hand-held mortars and weapons for anti-armour fighting that

13    battalions have such as Osa, Zolja, et cetera.  At any rate, this is the

14    possible way of using it towards the front end, along this communication

15    route.

16       Q.   Did that anti-armour weaponry or among that weaponry would

17    Maljutkas be counted as well?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   If you -- could you indicate, please, what the abbreviation POP-1

20    is?

21       A.   That is anti-armour position 1.  So out of this ellipse, if

22    necessary, the artillery pieces go out to this position here, if

23    necessary. And this is position for anti-armour fighting.  And then once

24    given orders, these weapons are moved out here, and then returned yet

25    again depending on the need involved.

Page 3952

 1       Q.   And the -- the presence of the anti-armour weapons, what was the

 2    purpose?  Was there a -- did -- was there a Croatian armour that was of

 3    concern?  Did the Croatian side have armour that you were concerned about?

 4       A.   Well, not at that time.  This is a classical schematic of the

 5    deployment of a brigade in an operation involving attack.  Since the

 6    brigade has this anti-armour weaponry, then the commander deploys them

 7    along the axes where they may be used in order to train them since he has

 8    this within the weaponry of the brigade, but there was no military

 9    necessity, because at the time the opposite side did not have any such

10    weaponry.

11       Q.   Are you able to point out any tanks indicated within the

12    472nd Brigade on this map?

13       A.   No, not here, because the terrain does not allow the use of tanks.

14    So they were not there in that brigade or, rather, the 2nd Operational

15    Group had a tank unit which was in Popovo Polje.  The brigade had got a

16    company with old World War II tanks, T-32, that were so obsolete that

17    finally this company was split into two or three smaller groups.  Later

18    on, they were at Dubrava facing Srdj, and they were given to the

19    3rd Battalion.  Two were dug in, and two were manoeuvering ones for

20    self-defence.

21       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.  Can you indicate the most forward line as of

22    the 20 -- for the 472nd Brigade as of the 26th of October?

23       A.   The most forward point was Zarkovica, here within the combat

24    deployment of the 4th Battalion.

25       Q.   And again the distance of that most forward line from Dubrovnik,

Page 3953

 1    the Old Town of Dubrovnik?

 2       A.   Around two or two and a half kilometres to the first walls near

 3    the Old City port.  About two and a half kilometres.  Two or two and a

 4    half.

 5       Q.   All right.  Can you indicate the waters now around Dubrovnik?  Who

 6    was in control of the waters at that time?

 7       A.   The blockade of town from the sea was carried out by the

 8    9th Sector, the units of the 16th Group that had four patrol boats and one

 9    gunboat.  These were small boats, about 100 tonnes each, which very little

10    weaponry.  In peacetime, they were used for controlling fishing boats and

11    defending the sea, preventing smuggling and so on.  Their basic task was

12    to act on the -- on the line Cavtat, Mljet, Kolocep, Dubrovnik Islands and

13    in that patrol there were usually one to two boats.  Their task was to

14    stop smuggling by speedboats and other smaller, fast boats during the

15    night which came from Metkovic and Ston via these Dubrovnik islands during

16    the night.  They came to the port of Gruz and supplied the town with

17    weapons and other combat needs.  Also, these boats intercepted or, rather,

18    checked all the boats that came into Dubrovnik, checked all the boats that

19    were coming from the outside, those who -- those who were allowed to enter

20    into order to supply the town.

21       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.  I think that pretty well explains who was in

22    control of the -- the coastal waters.

23            From what you have described with the lines and the waters, would

24    you be able to -- would you characterise the situation in the Dubrovnik

25    area, at least as far as the city of Dubrovnik was concerned as encircled

Page 3954

 1    or totally blockaded?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   At this time, that is up to the 26th of October, was -- to what

 4    formation was the 472nd Motorised Brigade directly subordinated?

 5       A.   Up to the 26th of October, the 472nd Brigade was directly

 6    subordinate to the 2nd Operational Group.

 7       Q.   And that was commanded by?

 8       A.   Commanded by General Strugar.

 9            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask to move this exhibit into evidence,

10    please.

11            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P120.

13            MS. SOMERS:

14       Q.   May I ask you, please, to turn your attention to tab 21.  This is

15    a document, Admiral, which is dated the 20 -- I'm sorry, one further

16    question on the map.

17            Do the positions which you have shown on the map depict or

18    are -- as of the 23rd of October, would the positions of the 2nd

19    Operational Group differ to those which you have shown on the map from,

20    let's say the 24th to the 26th of October?

21       A.   I don't understand your point.

22       Q.   Let me rephrase it.  The positions that you have shown us on the

23    map reflect the period 24 to 26 October.  Would there have been -- would

24    there have been a substantial difference in positions as of the 23rd of

25    October, which is not indicated on the map?  Would the positions have been

Page 3955

 1    much different from those that are indicated?  Do you understand my

 2    question now?

 3       A.   Well, yes.  On the 23rd and 24th of October, there was an action,

 4    a phase of the operation when Kupari was raided and Zupa Dubrovacka was

 5    taken.  That could not be seen on this map.  So these battalions we saw on

 6    the map just now reached this area on the 24th, 25th, and 26th.  Before

 7    that they were a bit further away and they were deployed in a somewhat

 8    different fashion at the time when the brigade was commanded by the

 9    2nd Operational Group.

10       Q.   So do I take it to mean that the positions for the 23rd are

11    approximate to the positions of the 24th, for our purposes?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Thank you, Admiral.

14       Q.   Looking at what is in front of you, an order addressed and in the

15    Serbo-Croatian version I'd like to point out a couple of typos so that the

16    Bench can correct them.  Yes, but the typos are in translation,

17    unfortunately.

18            It is addressed to the command of the 2nd Operational Group.  Is

19    that correct, Admiral?  Command of the 2OG?

20       A.   This document was compiled by the 2nd Operational Group, their

21    command, that is, and it was sent to my command and to the 472nd Brigade.

22    It is signed by General Pavle Strugar or, rather, Filipovic signed it on

23    his behalf.

24       Q.   The -- the correction I'm referring to is that it should

25    say -- it's from the 2OG but I believe in the English version it only says

Page 3956

 1    2, and it should have command 2OG.  And if the Court would be good enough

 2    to make that correction.

 3            What is the essence of this order?  What is it discussing?

 4       A.   This order has to do with what I talked about a short while ago,

 5    operations of the 472nd Brigade and the 9th VPS.  Through those

 6    operations, these units came to the position that we saw on the map a

 7    short while ago, so this is before the 23rd and the 24th of October.

 8            Tasks are given to the units of the 472nd Brigade according to

 9    battalions, which positions they are supposed to take, that is.  And it

10    can be seen from the order that the command of the 2nd Operational Group

11    is directly assigning tasks to my sector and the brigade, each and every

12    battalion of the brigade separately.

13       Q.   Is there an attachment?  Do you see what is an attachment to this

14    particular document?  And I will again point out in a moment some

15    corrections that need to be made in the English version, but if you see

16    afterward there is a -- an attachment which is -- which bears at the

17    bottom the name of the artillery Chief of Staff for the 2nd Operational

18    Group, Lieutenant Bozidar Petkovski.  Do you see it, Admiral?

19       A.   Yes, yes.  This is a proposal for engaging artillery in this

20    operation for all of the artillery forces both of the brigade and the

21    9th Sector.  So this document shows that the chief of artillery of the

22    2nd Operational Group gave detailed tasks to all batteries, all artillery

23    units in this operation.  So he said what the targets were and the

24    security zones and the structure of artillery fire and all other details.

25    This is not done usually.  However, this is the only operation where the

Page 3957

 1    units that bordered on each other had to act in concert and, therefore,

 2    the command has to control all artillery units in order to have

 3    coordinated action vis-a-vis the targets.

 4       Q.   Admiral, on the first page of the document which is the one

 5    bearing General Strugar's name, there is a section under the -- it says

 6    472nd Motorised Brigade, and the -- I want to just confirm with you that

 7    where it says:  "To carry out smaller --" the translation is "dislocations

 8    of units before dawn and in the following manner," and then it refers to a

 9    unit.  In Serbo-Croatian, what unit is referred to by 2MTB?  Do you see

10    where it says 2MTB under 472nd?

11       A.   Yes, but it is the 3rd Battalion that is referred to here and

12    getting the soldier who was from the 3rd Battalion who got killed out.  So

13    it's not the 2nd battalion.  It's the 3rd Battalion.

14       Q.   What I'm asking you just to assist us with it says I believe in

15    your language 2MTB and should MTB be battalion or brigade?  What should be

16    the correct translation, please?

17       A.   That is the 2nd MTB, the 2nd Motorised Battalion, not brigade, not

18    brigade.

19            MS. SOMERS:  I believe the English says Your Honour the

20    2nd Motorised Brigade and I ask if you could please correct it.  And I

21    believe that the same occurs in the paragraph indicating the 4th Motorised

22    it should read "Brigade," and it says -- I'm sorry, it should read

23    "Battalion" and it says "Brigade."

24       A.   Yes.

25            MS. SOMERS:

Page 3958

 1       Q.   Thank you for your help.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Excuse me.  I'm just checking something.

 4            When -- if and when an artillery chief submits an order or

 5    proposal, excuse me, is it done so at the direction of his commander,

 6    commander of the Operational Group?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Thank you.

 9            MS. SOMERS:  I would ask this document be admitted into evidence,

10    please.

11            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be received.

12            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be document Prosecution Exhibit P121.

13            MS. SOMERS:

14       Q.   Looking again at what has been what I believe -- yes, it was

15    admitted in evidence at tab 19.  Just taking a look at tab 19, which was

16    P119.  Looking back at it, Admiral, this order is an order from

17    Major General Pavle Strugar giving very detailed -- detailed instructions

18    about actions to take place in operations against enemy forces, having

19    specific instructions for the command of the 9th VPS, which is your

20    command, and the 472nd Motorised Brigade to report directly or personally

21    to General Strugar concerning actions taken.  Was this --

22       A.   Yes.  This is an order issued on the 24th of October.  This is a

23    decision related to further activities, and the order is to the commander

24    of the brigade and the commander of the sector to report to his command

25    post in order to resubordinate the brigade to the 9th Sector.  This combat

Page 3959

 1    order shows that the units of the sector and the brigade had got to the

 2    rock above Zupa, above Kupari and that they took the road between Trebinje

 3    and Dubrovnik.

 4       Q.   Admiral, does this order suggest that the operation is clearly

 5    under the control and directed by General Strugar?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   There's one -- there's one aspect of the order that I wish to ask

 8    you about, and -- let me just find it.  The last page of it, in English,

 9    Your Honours, it would be 03409154, there is a paragraph which states:

10    "By using the disciplinary and criminal measures, you should stop the

11    defeatism, betrayal, cowardice and panic and by emphasising bravery,

12    dedication and heroic deeds you should strengthen the unity and toughness

13    of the soldier collective."  Do you know perhaps what underlay inserting

14    such a paragraph in this order?

15       A.   This shows that there were measures to be taken to raise the

16    combat readiness and morale in the units because there had been

17    occurrences of indiscipline and unsoldierly conduct and so on.  The

18    commander deemed this was the most important task.  Immediately after

19    giving a combat task he talked about the morale.  Usually in these combat

20    orders only the essential things are discussed, but this combat order

21    speaks about nothing else but the morale of the troops and providing

22    security which means that this was the focus.  This was what they really

23    needed to direct their attention to.

24       Q.   Subsequent to the combat operations of 23, 24, 25 October, did you

25    receive information to the effect that shells from positions under the

Page 3960

 1    control of the 2nd Operational Group had impacted in the Old Town of

 2    Dubrovnik?  Did you receive information that there had been shells

 3    impacting?

 4       A.   No.  I didn't have any such information at the time.

 5       Q.   We're talking about the time period after the actual operations.

 6       A.   Yes.  Personally, I had heard about that, but it was only after

 7    the visit of the journalists and ambassadors, but I learned more about

 8    this when the journalists came to Dubrovnik on the 30th of October.  It's

 9    possible that this was published in the press and in the media, but at the

10    time I knew nothing about it, nor was this in any of our reports, the

11    reports that we received.  Those were actually the five or six shells that

12    landed on the Old Town as it turned out later.

13       Q.   Are you aware that General Kadijevic on or about the 26th of

14    October wrote to letter to Lord Carrington in which he denied any shelling

15    of the Old Town prior to that date?

16       A.   Yes, on the 26th of October.  That's when the letter was dated,

17    and it spoke about this.

18       Q.   Were you required to meet a delegation of ambassadors in Tivat on

19    or about the 29th of October?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   At the meeting, in a similar vein to General Kadijevic, did you

22    inform the ambassadors that the Old Town had not been shelled?

23       A.   Yes, I did.  I heard this information after they had returned from

24    their visit to the town itself.  However, as I had no facts about that, I

25    told them that I was not familiar and that I was not aware of all these

Page 3961

 1    things, which was the case.

 2       Q.   Was your comment about -- did you have -- sorry.  I -- I withdraw

 3    that question.

 4            Did you supply the ambassadors with a means of -- of

 5    transportation to visit Dubrovnik?

 6       A.   Yes, I gave them a ship.

 7       Q.   What -- sorry.

 8       A.   And they used this ship to get there.

 9       Q.   And was there a particular reason why they used a ship as opposed

10    to any other means of transportation?

11       A.   Prior to that, on the 28th of November -- or October, rather, I'm

12    sorry, on the 28th of October, we had negotiations, commander of the

13    2nd Operational Group, General Strugar had negotiations in Meljine.  I

14    think that was the representative, the envoy of the European Commission,

15    Bandioli, he was present and we spoke about this group of ambassadors and

16    how they would reach the town of Dubrovnik.  Having in mind the fact that

17    our communication between Boka Kotorska through Herzegovina into Dubrovnik

18    was dangerous in some of its sections, some of the sections of the road

19    were mined and there was not enough time to remove all the mines, and

20    bearing in mind the fact that along the road there were quite many houses

21    that had been burnt down or demolished, General Strugar and I agreed that

22    the safest thing for the ambassadors would be to travel by sea.

23            MS. SOMERS:  Excuse me just a moment.

24                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

25            MS. SOMERS:

Page 3962

 1       Q.   After the ambassadors returned from Dubrovnik -- excuse me, I have

 2    to check whether I have the date correct on this.

 3                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4            MS. SOMERS:

 5       Q.   After your meeting on the 29th of October, did you have a social

 6    evening with the group of ambassadors?

 7       A.   Yes.  We had dinner at the JNA centre in Tivat.

 8       Q.   Do you happen to recall if at some stage during this visit

 9    General Strugar also met with the ambassadors?

10       A.   No.  General Strugar was not with the ambassadors on that

11    occasion.

12       Q.   You do not recall his being there?

13       A.   No.  I remember clearly the meeting and everything about it, but

14    this was not envisaged.  I received orders to -- to carry out this task.

15    He was probably back at his command post or in Podgorica.  I can't

16    remember right now, but I was assigned to carry out that specific task.

17       Q.   But you don't know for sure if General Strugar may have at some

18    point met with them?  You didn't know where he was?

19            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  It seems it's a proposition to be quite the

21    contrary of the evidence that was given.

22            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you.  I'll move on.  Thank you.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Somers.

24            MS. SOMERS:  Thank you.

25       Q.   Was there, within 2nd Operational Group, any perceptible attitude,

Page 3963

 1    complaints or protest that is were lodged against the 2nd Operational

 2    Group by either the European Community or the other side?

 3       A.   You mean in general or on that specific occasion?  I don't

 4    understand.

 5       Q.   After that time in particular -- well, we're looking at the period

 6    from 23 to 25 October.  Was there any particular attitude that you might

 7    have perceived?

 8       A.   Generally speaking, there was no specific attitude about each

 9    protest by the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik or the representatives of the

10    European Community on our part.  There were quite a number of those, and

11    some are reflected in documents in which we were due to reply to those

12    protests.  Sometimes we wrote back to the General Staff and to

13    Admiral Brovet specifically.  I can't generalise about all the cases, but

14    the general belief was that their side was blowing these instances of

15    shelling out of all proportion and these acts of provocation by firing in

16    general.

17            As far as I remember, on one occasion we asked that the

18    representatives of the European Community come over to our side, that

19    there be delegates who would then tour our units in order to harmonise

20    their positions.  They suspected that the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff was

21    exaggerating the extent of shelling and acts of provocation, but we also

22    believed that the European Community tended to often side with Dubrovnik.

23    It was promised to us that there would be delegates who would come over to

24    our side, but this never materialised.

25            I accept, however, that it was possible that there were denials,

Page 3964

 1    that we were to blame for many of the cases, many of the things that

 2    occurred as part of those acts of provocation by firing.

 3       Q.   Thank you.

 4            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one clarification

 5    in relation to the interpretation on page 72, line 24.  It says "they"

 6    [In English] "suspected that the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff," [Interpretation]

 7    when actually the admiral said "we suspected that the Dubrovnik Crisis

 8    Staff."

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

10            MS. SOMERS:

11       Q.   After the incident -- excuse me.  Once -- once information had

12    made its way to the 2nd Operational Group about a suggestion or indication

13    of impacts in the Old Town and the shelling incident, was any

14    investigation or inquiry undertaken concerning the shelling incident?

15            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.  Nothing so

16    far in this witness's testimony could possibly be used as a foundation for

17    this question.  First of all, we should ask was there any information?

18    Was any information received, followed by the next which, was there any

19    reaction to this information being received.

20            JUDGE PARKER:  Well, we have heard that the admiral learnt of some

21    shells falling, five or six he said, in the period before the 30th of

22    October.  He heard of them on the 30th of October.  I don't know whether

23    that is what you're referring to, Ms. Somers.

24            MS. SOMERS:  Yes, Your Honour.  It would qualify as notice, and I

25    would just like -- I think that the question, therefore, would be

Page 3965

 1    appropriate.

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 3            MS. SOMERS:

 4       Q.   Admiral, if I need to repeat it for you, was any investigation or

 5    inquiry conduct -- sorry, conducted following the allegations of shelling

 6    on the 23rd and 24th of October by forces of the -- of the JNA or the

 7    2nd Operational Group into the Old Town of Dubrovnik?

 8            MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there seems to be a

 9    problem with us understanding each other here.  The admiral said that he

10    only learned about some things later.  My learned friend and colleague,

11    based on this testimony today, draws, on the basis of that, a conclusion

12    which she then links with the 2nd Operational Group.  That's the essence

13    of our problem.  Admiral is the commander of the 9th VPS.  Therefore, I

14    seem to be missing a link between the unit he commands and whoever else

15    may be there.  However, the link has not been established for this

16    question.

17            JUDGE PARKER:  My note, Mr. Petrovic, is that on the 30th of

18    October, from the journalists, the admiral learned that five or six shells

19    had landed in the Old Town, and he said that these had been from units of

20    the 2nd Operational Group.  That's my note of the evidence.  So that his

21    knowledge on that evidence was not just of his own immediate command but

22    of conduct involving troops of the Operational Group of which he was a

23    part, and the question, as I understand it, is whether there was any

24    inquiry or investigation undertaken into that or shelling incident or

25    those shelling incidents.

Page 3966

 1            MS. SOMERS:

 2       Q.   Admiral, that is the question His Honour has just repeated.  Are

 3    you able to answer it?

 4       A.   Yes.  As for that particular event, as I said, I only learned

 5    about that from the journalists.  My ship, the 137 patrol boat, was used

 6    to transport those journalists, to take them to the town, and after their

 7    tour of the town they were returned, driven back to Cavtat.  It was then

 8    that I heard about it.  It was either from Zec or from the boat commander

 9    that a lot of damage had occurred in the New Town, in Babin Kuk and Lapad

10    where the hotels are and there was only minor damage in the Old Town, that

11    an old museum called Rupe, an old granary had been damaged but that no one

12    was wounded or killed and that there were only five or six shells that

13    landed there.  That's what I learned, I believe, on the 30th or the 31st.

14       Q.   Can you indicate whether in the area around Dubrovnik there were

15    any formations that did not belong to the 2nd Operational Group, any

16    formations of the JNA?

17       A.   No, there were no such formations.  All those formations were

18    under the command of the 2nd Operational Group, including of course the

19    9th Sector which is part of the 2nd Operational Group.

20       Q.   I don't believe that I was able to -- perhaps we didn't get an

21    answer to the question about inquiry or investigation of the alleged

22    shelling.  Are you able to answer that, Admiral?

23       A.   I don't know that there was any investigation, but if I understand

24    you correctly, which position did the command take whenever information

25    was received about shelling at, provocation of firing against the enemy.

Page 3967

 1    The procedure that was followed was, roughly speaking, as follows:  The

 2    commander of the Operational Group, based on an assessment made by his own

 3    staff most probably, the assessment was made as to which units may have

 4    taken part in such an operation.  Then there is an order usually by phone

 5    to investigate the case and to report.

 6            This is exactly what I did in cases where such things happened

 7    under my command.  However, an investigation would imply a more thorough

 8    procedure.  I know what an investigation is supposed to mean, and I was

 9    not aware that any investigation was undertaken.

10       Q.   Even in the face of allegations of shelling from units of the

11    2nd Operational Group, are you aware of any extra measures that may have

12    been taken by the Operational Group to ensure the safety of the Old Town

13    in the face of such an allegation?  Was anything done in the way

14    of -- well, was anything done?

15       A.   I'm not aware of any particular measures, but certainly the next

16    combat order the measure was for the commander to repeat the ban on firing

17    on the Old Town and to emphasise the ban on firing on the Old Town, and

18    this was done on a regular basis.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Is that a convenient time, then, Ms. Somers?

20            MS. SOMERS:  Yes.  I -- I would say so if -- unless the Chamber

21    wishes to get one more document in on this area.  Okay, give up.  Thank

22    you.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  We would just lose too much critical time.  It's

24    important we finish on time for movements of different people.

25            MS. SOMERS:  Thanks.

Page 3968

 1            JUDGE PARKER:  We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

 2            I must ask you to return then, Admiral, if you will.  Thank you.

 3                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.46 p.m.,

 4                          to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of March,

 5                          2004, at 9.00 a.m.