1 Thursday, 22 April 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Ms. Somers.
6 MS. SOMERS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. We're pleased to
7 inform the Chamber that the witness is feeling better. I just want to let
8 the Chamber know that he has, I think, some back issues, and so perhaps if
9 there is any discomfort, I'm sure he will indicate that to the Chamber.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 MS. SOMERS: And Ms. Mahindaratne will be leading the evidence.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. We will call in the witness then.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
15 THE WITNESS: [In English] Good afternoon.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Could I ask you to take the card that is to be
17 offered to you, and if you would then make the affirmation. If you would
18 stand for that. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you.
23 WITNESS: IVAN NEGODIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Mahindaratne.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
2 Examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Negodic.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. For the record, could you please state your full name and age.
6 A. Ivan Negodic, born on the 8th of September, 1947, in Herceg Novi.
7 Q. Are you also referred to by a nickname, and if so, could you
8 please state that?
9 A. Braco.
10 Q. Where do you live?
11 A. In Dubrovnik, Croatia.
12 Q. Since when have you lived in Dubrovnik?
13 A. 1952.
14 Q. And what is your current occupation?
15 A. I'm a pensioner.
16 Q. What was your occupation prior to retirement?
17 A. I was head of the technical service of a big hotel.
18 Q. What is your ethnic origin?
19 A. A Croat.
20 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please briefly describe your academic and
21 professional background.
22 A. [In English] Electrotechnical school.
23 Q. Can you hear me, sir?
24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said in English, "electrotechnical
25 school." Interpreter's note.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard you. Are you asking me
2 about my private life now?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
4 Q. No, I'm not. Have you had any military training or been in
5 military service?
6 A. Yes. I did my military service at the reserve officer school in
7 Zadar, and after that I was transferred to Pozaverac in Serbia.
8 Q. Sir, could you please give a detailed description of the military
9 training that you obtained and in particular, reference to the weapons
10 training that you had?
11 A. I completed the military school in Zadar. After that, I was
12 trained in Pozaverac, too, so it was a total of 19 months. After that,
13 several courses in Zadar, Slavonska Posega [phoen], Zagreb, altogether
14 approximately about a thousand days on the reserve force of Yugoslavia.
15 That will do for the time being.
16 Q. In the course of your military training, did you have training in
17 specific weapon systems, such as training in mortars or artillery?
18 A. Yes. At the school there was some theory and some practice.
19 Howitzers, 122 millimetres, 155, the cannon howitzer 203, 120-millimetre
20 howitzers. After that I was transferred to Pozarevac for the second part
21 of my military service, and that's where I used 120-millimetre mortars.
22 Q. Could you give us some understanding about the ranks you held
23 within the JNA and thereafter, if you served in any other force. First if
24 you start off with the JNA, the particular ranks you held.
25 A. Until Yugoslavia fell apart, I held the rank of captain first
1 class. After that, with the same rank, I was in the Croatian army. In
2 the beginning of 1992, I got the rank of major.
3 Q. And at the time of retirement from the military, you held the rank
4 of major. Is that right, sir?
5 A. Yes, but that was not the case in civilian life. It didn't really
6 matter in civilian life.
7 Q. Of course. Prior to the conflict in Dubrovnik, what -- what was
8 your occupation? You stated earlier on that you were the head of -- head
9 technician at a hotel. Was that the same post that you held prior to the
10 conflict in Dubrovnik?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Until when did you work in this capacity?
13 A. Until the month of July 1991.
14 Q. And would you be able to tell the Trial Chamber as to what
15 happened in the month of July, end of -- did you say end? Month of July
17 A. We, in the area of Dubrovnik, knew that in the area of Dubrovnik
18 [as interpreted] there was a troublesome situation already. When we look
19 at --
20 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, there is a transcript issue. I believe
21 it was said in the area of Vukovar there was a troublesome situation, and
22 I think it came out as Dubrovnik. If it's possible -- I apologise for
23 interrupting my colleague, but I believe it was an error.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Perhaps you would clarify that matter,
25 if you would, with the witness.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honours.
2 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you repeat your answer again. I'm sorry for
3 inconveniencing you.
4 A. Yes, of course. Since we learned about things through the media
5 that in the area of Vukovar there was a troublesome situation, and the
6 Serbs in Dubrovnik, just near the territory of the town of Dubrovnik,
7 caused a similar situation and therefore we had to prepare ourselves, at
8 least in some way, for a possible attack.
9 Q. Do I take your response to mean that after -- in July 1991 or
10 since then you were involved in preparation against -- against a potential
11 attack? Is that how I should understand your response to me?
12 A. Yes, but working on paper problems, so to speak.
13 Q. If I use the term administrative aspects is that correct, sir?
14 A. This administrative phrasing is a better solution, yes.
15 Q. And against what were you preparing to defend? What was the
16 objective behind these preparations? Could you be a lit bit more -- could
17 you perhaps elaborate a little bit more clearly? If I could make it -- if
18 I could say was there a particular threat, and if so, what was the threat?
19 A. It was a public secret, so to speak. We do not have ten enemies,
20 only one who wanted our territory.
21 Q. And whom did you perceive as the enemy? Could you give it a name?
22 A. The command, military and civilian, from the territory of Serbia
23 and Montenegro.
24 Q. And when you say military, what military are you talking about?
25 What was this particular military force known as? What was the name?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. The JNA.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.
4 Q. And could you tell us as to what other steps did you take towards
5 organisation of the defence against this army. That is, what role did you
6 play in the organisation of the defence?
7 A. I was chief of artillery, and I was supposed to look through the
8 administration of the Territorial Defence headquarters so that I would
9 take care of my units on paper, so to speak, although I didn't really have
10 any, especially not with weapons.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please be
12 asked to speak up.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
14 Q. Sir, could you speak up a little.
15 A. Thank you.
16 Q. Moving forward from the phase -- administrative phrase, could you
17 be a little bit more specific with regard to your role in the organisation
18 of the Dubrovnik defence? And I'm asking you to move forward from the
19 administrative phase into the active phase.
20 A. As for the active phase, again it is directly linked to the
21 administrative phase. All lower-ranking officers and non-commissioned
22 officers who completed military courses or schools in the former JNA were
23 supposed to be made available to me as persons who were closest to me, and
24 they were supposed to train the rest of the men.
25 Q. So were you -- in effect, what you're saying is that you were
1 involved in the organisation of recruitment with regard to perhaps the
2 artillery division. Is that what you're saying?
3 A. Yes, indirectly, because this is the basic task of the Territorial
4 Defence staff.
5 Q. In addition to the aspects of recruitment, were you also involved
6 in securing weapons and heavy weapons, in fact - I'm specifically
7 referring to heavy weapons - for the Dubrovnik defence force. When I say
8 "securing," I'm not talking about physical securing, organisation of the
9 securing aspect.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How about training? Were you involved in any -- in a -- any
12 aspect of the organisation of the training of personnel in the artillery
13 divisions? If I may rephrase, artillery sector.
14 A. Yes, initially.
15 Q. What was the territory that you -- your force was attempting to
16 defend against the JNA? Could you identify it by name? You don't have to
17 go into every areas and municipalities. I'm asking you what was the
18 particular territory, the broader area?
19 A. If we look towards the border with Montenegro, then it is the
20 territory of Konavle. If we look towards Bosnia-Herzegovina, then it is
21 the territory of the coast, Rijeka Dubrovacka, and Mokosica. Brgat is in
22 the middle.
23 Q. In other words, the territory of Dubrovnik?
24 A. Yes. Yes, the wider area of the town.
25 Q. Sir, you said that you were the head of the artillery sector
1 for -- I'm sorry, the term you used was chief of artillery sector of the
2 Dubrovnik defence force. Were you at any stage formally appointed to this
4 A. Yes, of course. That's the way it was supposed to be, and that is
5 the military system, that I should have my appointment confirmed from
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could I have the assistance of Madam Usher to
8 show a document to the witness. I think it's on Sanction.
9 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document which has just been placed
10 before you?
11 A. This is the usual kind of proposal for appointment. However, this
12 is just a confirmation of the proposal that had been approved.
13 Q. Now, this document is dated 1 November 1991. However, in this
14 document, the -- you can clearly see by the sixth and the seventh lines
15 that you are being confirmed in the post of chief of sectors artillery and
16 that you clearly held that position from prior to 1 November 1991. Isn't
17 that the case, sir?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Since when did you hold this position? You said you were involved
20 in organisation of the artillery sector at the beginning of the formation
21 of the force. Was it the case that you held this position from the
22 beginning of the force itself, from prior to 1st of October, 1991?
23 A. Yes. I was sent on the 28th of August. Of course the year is
25 Q. Can you be more specific? You said you were sent on the 28th of
1 August. Was there a formal formation of the Dubrovnik defence force by
2 28th of August, 1991?
3 A. The 28th of August was not when the town's defence was
4 established. It was just under the process of being established.
5 Q. When would you say was the town's defence was formally
6 established. Could you be able to give an approximate time or date,
7 perhaps, or a month -- or the month?
8 A. If you mean when the town's defence was established, then I can
9 say that the town's defence was not fully established even by the new year
10 of 1992. However, what was established was the formation of the units as
11 we received weapons and artillery pieces and ammunition. So that's how we
12 were able to set up the units, in line with that.
13 Q. So what time frame would you give for that?
14 A. That took place, roughly speaking, in October, as far as the
15 artillery was concerned.
16 Q. So in that context would it be correct to say that you were -- you
17 were chief of artillery sector of the Dubrovnik defence since October
19 A. Not with respect to the men. I -- I started preparations with the
20 men from the 28th of August with reconnaissance work towards the border
21 with Montenegro.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honours, I move to tender this document in
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This document is P158.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
2 Q. Would you briefly describe the composition of the Dubrovnik
3 defence force. And when I say composition of the force, I'm referring to
4 the personnel. You don't have to give me the exact numbers, but as to who
5 consisted of the force? Were they reservists, professional soldiers,
6 ordinary people? Just some idea.
7 A. For the lower units, they were people who had gone to the reserve
8 officers school and graduated from that, non-commissioned officers and
9 lower-ranking officers, and then there were people who lived in Dubrovnik,
10 the inhabitants of Dubrovnik as well.
11 Q. Were there any professional soldiers in the force?
12 A. Not in the artillery.
13 Q. In the entire force? I'm not specifically referring only to
15 A. Yes. Four men in the headquarters and command for the staff's --
16 for the town's defence.
17 Q. As such, how would you describe the level of training of the
18 personnel attached to the artillery sector, and that is your sector? And
19 just to make it convenient for you, I will give you a point of reference
20 as 6th December 1991. As at 6 December 1991, what was the level of
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
24 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please?
25 A. It was quite solid or average. The artillery pieces were handled
1 by people who were sufficiently trained. They had been to the reserve
2 officers school, or they were uncommissioned officers or lower-ranking
3 officers. The other men were from the rank and file, that is to say,
4 ordinary citizens who didn't have the necessary knowledge but who didn't
5 actually need any professional training for the kind of work they did.
6 All they needed was a short training course.
7 Q. Did you have these ordinary people, as you put it, attached to the
8 artillery sector of the force, or did you have reservists attached to the
9 artillery sector, and if both, could you give some idea as to what the
10 percentages were?
11 A. In the former Yugoslavia, every man who had done his military
12 service pursuant to the law and the reigning system was a reserve officer
13 or soldier of the former Yugoslavia. Now, in that sense, everyone who had
14 completed the army was automatically a reservist, made up the reserve
15 composition in the former Yugoslavia.
16 Q. So are you saying that all the personnel attached to the artillery
17 sector were reservists with some military background?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Were the personnel who were given the responsibility of manning
20 the weapons in your sector all trained in those particular weaponry that
21 they had to handle? And if so, could you give some idea as to their level
22 of training, was it acceptable in that sense?
23 A. Yes, of course. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to
24 perform the tasks and assignments they were given.
25 Q. Do you know if there were members of the ZNG, the Croatian
1 National Guard, within the Dubrovnik defence force? And I'm not
2 particularly referring to your artillery sector but the entire force.
3 A. Not in the artillery. In the Dubrovnik defence, yes, in several
5 Q. In reference to weapons, how and from where were weapons obtained
6 for the force?
7 A. As far as I know, from the Metkovic-Ploce direction, and the
8 Peljesac Peninsula, Elafiti Dubrovnik, which means Mljet, Sipan, Lopud,
9 those islands, Kolocep, Lapad as part of Dubrovnik.
10 Q. Were weapons obtained from any islands around the -- around
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What were these islands? Can you name them?
14 A. Korcula.
15 Q. Were there any other islands apart from Korcula?
16 A. Yes, there were others too. We got the 85-millimetre cannons,
17 they arrived afterwards. If you mean for 1991 or in 1991, then there were
18 just two Zis's and mortars.
19 Q. By October 1991, can you give the Trial Chamber some idea as to
20 what the presence of the JNA in the area was like. Was there a
21 concentrated, strong presence of JNA units in the area? And I'm referring
22 to the time period perhaps 1st October 1991.
23 A. The JNA, at the beginning of October, broke through the border
24 crossing towards Konavle, and the forces that were in Konavle withdrew
25 towards the Dubrovacka-Zupa area, and after that to the Brgat area, and
1 after that again to the narrow area of the town and the fort of Srdj above
2 the town. On the 24th of October, a naval landing took place in the
3 Dubrovacka-Zupa area and Kupari area, and this attack was launched from
4 the sea. It was assisted by the paramilitaries from the northern section,
5 Trebinje, Nevesinje, Niksic, Bijelo Polje area.
6 Q. Does that mean that by 24th October there was a land and sea
7 blockade of Dubrovnik by the JNA forces?
8 A. Yes. Between the 24th and 25th, Dubrovnik was in a blockade,
9 because from the sea there was no more access. They didn't have access to
10 anybody any more because they were prevented in doing so by the naval
11 vessels belonging to the Yugoslav navy. They prevented any comings or
12 goings and controlled the area.
13 Q. In the context of the blockade -- I rephrase that term. I'm
14 sorry, Your Honours.
15 You said you obtained your weapons from the islands. From where
16 did you -- as well as some other areas. From where did you obtain your
18 A. We obtained our ammunition from the Metkovic-Ploce direction and
19 the peninsula Peljesac, and the only transportation towards Dubrovnik was
20 with motor boats, speed boats, and ammunition would be brought in in the
21 speed boats, and they would go island hopping during the night and unload
22 in Lapad on the big beach there at Lapad.
23 Q. That was going to be my next question. In the context of the
24 blockade, the land and the sea blockade, how did your forces succeed in
25 getting supplies of weapons and ammunition without being detected by the
2 A. The movement of vessels was monitored. The speed boats had
3 high-power motors, and between the islands they didn't need much time
4 and to wait for the next -- for the following night.
5 Q. So supplies for all this made during night-time to avoid detection
6 by JNA [sic]?
7 A. Of course.
8 Q. Do you know of any incidents where your supply boats were in fact
9 defected by the JNA, and if so, what consequences ensued?
10 A. There were small skirmishes, but it was like the battle between
11 David and Goliath.
12 Q. And when you said David and Goliath, could you give some
13 indication as to whom -- who -- which force was which -- who? Whom are
14 you referring to as David, and whom are you referring to as Goliath?
15 A. David was the Croatian man in the speedboat, but he didn't have a
17 Q. Mr. Negodic, do you know the name of the -- the forces which were
18 deployed around Dubrovnik, the particular group was known by a particular
19 name, or did you refer to them as the JNA? Can you identify them by a
20 particular name?
21 A. I would say that the majority was the JNA assisted by the
23 Q. That's not my question. Did you know as to whether these troops
24 belonged to a particular group or a particular corps or a particular unit?
25 Could you identify? Or perhaps one particular formation?
1 A. Well, as far as I'm concerned, there was no time to come by that
2 kind of information. It was enough to address the artillery problems as
3 an artilleryman, but it was the naval military district of Boka that was
4 responsible, and in all the orders and any requests that were made, the
5 signature was that of Sofronije Jeremic, which means that the JNA was
6 behind all the moves that were made in the area.
7 Q. Mr. Negodic, have you -- are you familiar or are you heard of the
8 2nd Operational Group of the JNA? If you are not, just say no. If you --
9 A. Well, I can't actually tell you anything much about that. I
10 really don't know.
11 Q. Okay. We will leave it at that.
12 As at 6 December 1991, what was the strength of your artillery and
13 mortar sector in terms of personnel? Just an approximate number will do.
14 A. Approximately 80 or 90.
15 Q. And what weapons did you have in your sector as at 6 December
17 A. Two Zis 76-millimetre guns or cannons, a Maljutka type weapon,
18 seven 82-millimetre mortars [Realtime transcript read in
19 error "military"], three 120-millimetre mortars, a single barrel rocket
20 launcher, 128 millimetres.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honours, there is a correction to be made
22 on the transcript. It's gone down as "82 military mortars," but it's
23 millimetre mortars.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
1 Q. In addition to the heavy weapons that you just described as being
2 in your sector, did the Dubrovnik defence force also have infantry
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you be able to give the Trial Chamber an indication as to
6 what type of infantry weapons were available? And I'm not asking for
7 exact quantities or the exact types, but just a general idea will do.
8 A. If you think about -- are thinking about the infantry, to the best
9 of my knowledge, and my knowledge is not full in that area, they had
10 rifles, light machine-guns, and at the access roads going into town from
11 three directions hand -- hand-held rocket launchers and an APC as
12 anti-armour equipment.
13 THE INTERPRETER: As anti-armour equipment. Interpreter's
14 correction. Not APC as anti-armour equipment.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
16 Q. Did your force have anti-aircraft weapons?
17 A. Well, that didn't come under my competence, but as far as I know,
18 they had a three-barrel weapon, a single barrel or double barrel of the 2M
19 type, Strela 2M and Igla.
20 Q. Can you give us an idea as to what --
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The transcript does not reflect
24 exactly what the witness said. So would my learned colleague ask her last
25 question, page 16, line 16, because it isn't quite clear if we read the
1 transcript, whereas I think the witness said this, as far as I'm
2 concerned, quite clearly.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
4 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please repeat your response with regard to
5 my question, especially in relation to the last few items you described,
6 that is, after a single barrel or double barrel of the 2M type, and then
7 you went on to say Strela something. Could you repeat what you just said.
8 A. As far as I know, but as I say this did not come under my
9 competence, I think and I can claim that as far as the three-barrelled
10 weapon exists, there was a three-barrelled weapon as an anti-aircraft
11 weapon, and then there was a single barrel or double barrel weapon as
12 well, another anti-aircraft device was the Strela 2M. There was one
13 piece, and it was called the -- and another piece called the Igla or pin,
14 and there was one piece of the Igla type.
15 Q. Could you give the Trial Chamber some idea as to what the level of
16 your weapons were in terms of -- did you have an adequate supply of
17 weapons to meet the tasks at hand?
18 A. We didn't have enough weapons or ammunition.
19 Q. When you say you didn't have enough weapons or ammunition, I take
20 it your supply of ammunition was also limited?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. In view of the limited ammunition available to you, what steps did
23 you have in place to ensure that there was no wastage in meeting your fire
25 A. This could be regulated in part through the orders which were
1 issued. However, on the 6th of December, things escaped control somewhat,
2 because the attacks were no longer artillery attacks but were combined
3 attacks. Artillery weapons used and tanks and infantry weapons. So that
4 meant that we had to use more ammunition than we had envisaged.
5 Q. Sir, when you said the attacks were no longer artillery attacks
6 but were combined attacks, were you referring to attacks by the JNA or are
7 you referring to your forces using -- your forces responding? To whom --
8 which forces did you refer to when you say attacks, by whom?
9 A. I meant the attacks on the part of the JNA and the paramilitaries.
10 Q. Now, the details you just gave in terms of numbers and the weapons
11 and the strength of your artillery sector was as at 6th of December since
12 that was the point of reference I gave you. Would you say that by this
13 stage the strength of the Dubrovnik defence force had improved in terms of
14 personnel and weapons from the initial stages of its formation in late
15 September or October? Just a brief response, yes or no, would suffice.
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 Q. Who was the head of the Dubrovnik defence?
18 A. General Nojko Marinovic.
19 Q. And who was his predecessor or did he have a predecessor?
20 A. At the beginning, it was Major Zeljko Pavlovic, Chief of Staff of
21 the TO. And the first commander of the defence for Dubrovnik
23 Q. Where was the Dubrovnik defence headquarters located?
24 A. In August, it was in the premises of the headquarters of the
25 Territorial Defence, and then in the Lapad area.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the name of the hotel,
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
4 Q. Sir, can you please repeat the name of the hotel you just stated.
5 A. Zagreb.
6 Q. Where was your command post located?
7 A. My command post was located in the Zagreb hotel as well when there
8 was no combat.
9 Q. Did your personnel have a particular uniform or insignia to
10 identify themselves?
11 A. No. There was no need because the territory was a small one, and
12 we didn't have any way of being sent in uniforms either. I was alone. I
13 only -- only I had the olive green uniform worn by the soldiers in the
14 former JNA.
15 Q. As at 6 December were there uniforms or any form of insignia to
16 identify members of your force?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Mr. Negodic, how would you assess the strength of the Dubrovnik
19 defence force in comparison to the JNA units deployed in Dubrovnik in
20 terms of infantry and heavy weaponry, and I'm referring to the entire
21 period of the conflict from perhaps 1st of October, 1991, to, let us say,
22 31st December, 1991.
23 A. If we look at the general balance of power, in terms of artillery
24 it is a ratio of one to a hundred.
25 Q. In terms of infantry?
1 A. We only had infantry units established in the zone of defence
2 operations. However, the JNA and the paramilitaries were deployed for
3 attack. In that sense, military logic itself makes it incumbent to have
4 three times more people involved in the attack than those involved in the
6 Q. Yes. So would you give some ratio? Would you be able to? Or if
7 not, that's all right.
8 A. I think that approximately the ratio was 1 to 50. If we are
9 referring to military forces that are available in Dubrovnik vis-a-vis the
10 JNA forces and the paramilitary forces.
11 Q. If you take the -- look -- look at the situation in its entire
12 context, that is with the supply of -- limited supply of ammunition
13 available to your forces and the limited supply of weaponry and the
14 numbers of infantry, how would you access the entire situation?
15 A. Well, since you've mentioned ammunition, we can no longer speak
16 about these small ratios. In my estimate, it was 1 to 1.000.
17 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please state as to approximately when the
18 first JNA attacks against Dubrovnik took place? You don't have to give
19 the exact date or time but approximate time period.
20 A. If you mean when the shells fell in the area of town, in the
21 narrower sense of the word, that was already on the 24th and 23rd of
23 Q. I'm not asking about a specific target or the town. I'm asking
24 about when -- as to when the first JNA attacks and operations against
25 Dubrovnik take place. When did the JNA attack for the first time? The
1 initial attacks against Dubrovnik, that's what I'm asking.
2 A. The initial attacks against the town of Dubrovnik were artillery
3 attacks on the wider area of town. The wider nucleus of town. I'm
4 referring to the Old Town and Lapad, Gruz, and Ploce, that is to say,
5 without any specific targets. The 23rd of October.
6 Q. When did the first infantry attacks or -- when I'm talking about
7 attacks, I'm not necessarily talking about attacks by heavy weaponry.
8 Were there any form of attacks, and I'm not talking particularly about
9 operations, just at least sporadic individual attacks prior to 23rd
10 October, 1991. Are you saying that no shots were fired before that?
11 A. From our side?
12 Q. No, no, from the JNA.
13 A. From the JNA side?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. You mean -- you mean personal weapons. There were just small
16 skirmishes at the fort of Srdj, fire coming from Zarkovica aiming at Srdj.
17 The Yugoslav People's Army, at that time, only shelled or fired at the
18 territory irrespective of particular targets or objectives.
19 Q. Let me ask this question this way: When did the hostilities in
20 the region truly -- when did it start? Approximately.
21 A. You mean hostilities in the area of town or the broader area of
22 the district or municipality?
23 Q. Broader area.
24 A. In the broader area, already in the month of September 1991,
25 mortar shells were fired every day at the village of Bani, which is in the
1 immediate vicinity of the border crossing with Montenegro. That's on the
2 one side. On the other side, the village of Dubravka from which there is
3 a road leading to Trebinje and further on. It's the road leading to
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. But that is already the month of September. We can
5 say that these are concrete problems that Serbia and Montenegro created.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honours, at this stage I intend to have a
7 map marked, but considering that it's only five minutes more for the
8 break, I wonder whether -- oh, I beg your pardon. I made a mistake.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Well, you've joined me. I'm glad somebody else
10 gets things wrong.
11 Before you start on that, did you want to tender the document you
12 showed the witness much earlier?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I did, Your Honour. I did move it in.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Oh. Well, I've made two mistakes. Thank you.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I have the assistance of the usher to show
16 a map to the witness, the map bearing ERN number 0334-0719.
17 Your Honours, we have already distributed copies of this map, but
18 in the course of this testimony the witness will be making some markings
19 on this map, and we will provide copies of the marked map also in due
21 Q. Mr. Negodic, do you recognise this map?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it a working map of the headquarters of the Dubrovnik defence?
24 A. Yes. It's a working map with artillery positions marked on it.
25 Q. Is it a combat deployment map showing Croat positions as well as
1 the JNA positions?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Are you familiar with it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you please take us through this map, and for -- in the
6 interests of clarity and coherence, let us go through the map position by
7 position. If I could have the assistance of the usher to move the map to
8 bring the western side of the map into view. Thank you.
9 And first and foremost, Mr. Negodic, what would you say is the
10 scale of this map?
11 A. 1:25000.
12 Q. And what is the territory and the area that is depicted in this
13 map? And you don't have to go into each and every area or municipality,
14 just in general terms. Is this a map of Dubrovnik?
15 A. Yes, of course. Rijeka Dubrovacka can be also be seen, with
16 Mokosica, which is part of the Dubrovnik municipality. That's the
17 northern part.
18 Q. Can you just please place your pointer and indicate as to which
19 area is Mokosica and which area is Rijeka Dubrovacka. Pardon my
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. What are you indicating right now? Could you just state for the
23 record what you are indicating right now.
24 A. I am indicating Rijeka Dubrovacka.
25 Q. And that is the -- the waterway that you just indicated; is that
1 right? It's a territory beyond the waterway, beyond the --
2 A. Yes, of course. Of course. Now I am going to show the area of
3 Old Mokosica and New Mokosica because there are two distinct parts.
4 Q. Is that the Old Mokosica you have just indicated?
5 A. No. Old and New Mokosica are adjoining, because if we look at it
6 from the point of view of construction, it appears as one.
7 Q. Could you just pull up the map and indicate Old Town, Stari Grad
8 of Dubrovnik.
9 A. [Indicates]
10 Q. Thank you. Now we'll go through the positions, the artillery and
11 mortar positions, your positions. If you could just pull up the map, push
12 the map so that the western end of the map shows -- comes on the ELMO. If
13 you could pull it towards your -- that's right. Thank you.
14 Could you place your pointer on the -- the western most position,
15 military position, on this map that is on the coastal line on the west.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. Yes. I'm referring to the one above. Yes. That's correct. Can
18 you identify that location?
19 A. This is the Maljutka position.
20 Q. No. I asked for the location. What is that location known as?
21 A. The location is the President Hotel, near the sea.
22 Q. And what is that area called?
23 A. Lapad. The Hotel President by the sea. That's where the position
25 Q. And what was the weapon that was positioned there, weapon or
1 weapons? Could you indicate the type and the numbers.
2 A. Maljutka, one piece.
3 Q. And that particular symbol which looks like an aircraft, is that
4 the symbol which indicates a Maljutka position?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that position deployed as at 6 December 1991?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it active, as in did that Maljutka fire on the 6th of
10 A. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. The concentration of the attack of the Yugoslav army [as
13 interpreted] was such that they had to withdraw into the President Hotel
14 because no shelter had been made.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, Your Honours, the position that
16 the witness just testified is the position indicated between -- on the
17 western side, on the coast, between the words --
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
19 JUDGE PARKER: You were speaking?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I thought my learned friend --
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, but if you could just finish your question and
22 then we'll deal with what concerns --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The position indicated between the words
24 Rt Baterija and Rt -- I'm sorry, my pronunciation is bad. Mr. Negodic,
25 could you pronounce it so that it goes down on record.
1 A. Yes. So let us take the middle between the cape. That is where
2 the battery is, and the cap [sic] Gnjiliste.
3 Q. No. My request to you is could you read out the two words which
4 is on either side of that position.
5 A. Rt. Rt is a cape, a protruding part of the coastline. So the
6 word is Rt, R-t.
7 Q. And the second word? There is a second word, Gnjiliste.
8 A. Gnjiliste. I don't know how to explain that word. It's an old
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Negodic.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Petrovic, sorry to keep your waiting, but
12 I wanted to finish that little part of the transcript.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's the least of
14 any problem. Thank you for giving me the floor.
15 On page 25, line 3, it says: "The attack of the Yugoslav army."
16 The witness said: "The attack of the Yugoslav navy." Could that please
17 be corrected in the transcript.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters did say
19 navy. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
22 Q. And, Mr. Negodic, your testimony was that that position was not
23 active on 6th of December because the position came under attack from the
24 JNA and the crew there had to withdraw into the shelter, is it, or the
25 hotel that was near there, the place?
1 A. Yes, that's what I said, and I said that they withdrew because
2 fire had been opened from several ships of the Yugoslav navy, because land
3 forces, the artillery of the Yugoslav People's Army, could not effect
4 their position.
5 Q. Could you please place your pointer on the position which is just
6 below that position you were speaking about. If you take your pointer
7 down. That's correct. Can you please keep your pointer there. Yes. Can
8 you identify what that location is? And I'm asking for the location.
9 A. The location is the area of the Neptun Hotel. I cannot give you
10 other details. That is the reserve position of the recoilless cannon.
11 Q. So I take it from your response that the weapon that was deployed
12 there was the recoilless cannon. And you said it was a reserve position.
13 Can you explain, please? What did you mean by reserve position?
14 A. If we move along this map north-east of this particular position,
15 we will notice another marking which is the same, and above it it says Rt
16 Kantafig. That is the position of the recoilless cannon. And what you
17 are asking me about is the reserve position which was prepared for that
18 same recoilless cannon.
19 Q. As I understand you, sir, when you use the word "reserve" and
20 since we are laypersons we're not very familiar with military terms, what
21 you mean is it's an alternative position; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And could you, since we're on this position, also move the map and
24 show what its alternative position was.
25 A. This is the alternative position, and this is the real position of
1 the recoilless cannon.
2 Q. Could you please place your pointer again on that position. No.
3 No, the earlier -- the proper position. You're now placing your pointer
4 on the position as I understand was the reserve position. That is
6 So this position that you're now placing your pointer on, which
7 for the record is towards east of the word Solitudo, was the real position
8 for this recoilless cannon?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the previous position was merely a reserve position, that is,
11 an alternative position?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just to clarify, could you explain as to how this works? When you
14 say a reserve position, does that mean that one weapon is moved from one
15 position to the other? Is that what you mean? According to necessity.
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 Q. So at --
18 A. As we will see later in the case of the Maljutka, when necessary,
19 it is taken from its basic position, the recoilless cannon is, and then it
20 is placed at its reserve position by the Hotel Neptun. It all depends on
21 the situation or, rather, on the assessment made of the -- by the command
22 in terms of what should be done.
23 Q. So at a given time, that is, in one instance you will not have
24 both positions deployed since you have only one weapon for both positions?
25 Is that how I understand you?
1 A. Yes. You understood me correctly. There is one artillery piece
2 and two combat positions. One is actually a combat position, and the
3 other one is a reserve position, as it is called.
4 Q. Now, the reserve position that you indicated near Hotel Neptun,
5 was the recoilless cannon at the reserve position as at 6 December 1991?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Then was it at the combat position which is west of the word
9 A. Yes, yes. It was at its basic combat position.
10 Q. Could you identify the location of that basic combat position of
11 the recoilless cannon?
12 A. It is the area between Solitudo and Orsan. It's a small bay, a
13 very small bay. I don't know how else to explain it. It is the area
14 where fishermen used to take out their boats in order to be overhauled,
15 the old ones. This position was there just to prevent the Yugoslav navy
16 ships from entering the port of Gruz.
17 Q. Just going back to the reserve position. That symbol that is
18 indicated there, is that the symbol one uses to indicate a recoilless
20 A. That is how a recoilless cannon is indicated or marked.
21 Q. And the symbol at the basic combat position, is it the same symbol
22 that is indicated there?
23 A. If you mean to the left of the basic position of the recoilless
24 cannon, that is the combat position of the mortar.
25 Q. No. I'm referring to the basic combat position which you -- we
1 were talking about earlier on. That's correct.
2 A. [Indicates]
3 Q. That symbol, does it reflect the symbol that one uses for
4 recoilless cannons? Because it seems quite different from the symbol
5 which you indicated earlier on.
6 A. Perhaps it's just a mistake in the actual drawing of the map.
7 Perhaps not enough of the red colour was used in the lower area, so it
8 doesn't look the same.
9 Q. But you are aware by your personal knowledge that that was a
10 position for recoilless cannon?
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. And you said, sir, that it was deployed, the recoilless cannon was
13 deployed at this position on 6th of December, 1991. Was it active on 6th
14 of December, 1991? Did it fire?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Why not?
17 A. I've already said what the purpose of that recoilless cannon was,
18 to prevent the ships of the Yugoslav navy from entering the port of Gruz.
19 Since that did not happen, there was no need to open fire.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: I think that will be a convenient time for the
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: We will have a break now for some 20 minutes.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, before I proceed, I think I ought
4 to make a correction to the record. When I referred to the recoilless
5 cannon, the basic combat position, I referred to it as to the west of the
6 word Solitudo. It should be the east. I got my directions wrong.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
9 Q. Mr. Negodic, to the west of that recoilless cannon, just above the
10 word Solitudo, there is a symbol. Can you first identify what that
11 location is?
12 A. That is the combat position of the mortar.
13 Q. Could you please first identify the location. What is that
14 location known as?
15 A. The combat position of Solitudo.
16 Q. And what were the weapons that were positioned there? Can you
17 give the type and the numbers?
18 A. It was a combined unit. 120 mortars -- millimetre mortars and
19 82-millimetre launchers. There were three of 120 millimetres and three of
20 82 millimetres.
21 Q. Is that the position known as the camping ground in Solitudo in
23 A. Yes, that's right. It was an automobile camp, and that's where
24 that particular piece was positioned.
25 Q. That symbol, is that the type of symbol that indicates mortar
2 A. Yes, for both types.
3 Q. When you say for both types, you mean for both calibres, the 120
4 and 82 millimetres?
5 A. Yes, that's right. Of course.
6 Q. Was this position deployed as at 6 December 1991?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did -- did the weapons that were positioned there fire on the 6th
9 of December, 1991, in that was the position active on the 6th?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you indicate as to which targets the weapons, the mortars
12 positioned at this location fired at, towards which direction and at which
13 JNA targets?
14 A. From that position, Fort Srdj was fired at and the area around it.
15 So Srdj was the target.
16 Q. Did those weapons fire at Zarkovica?
17 A. That assignment was one that other combat positions had.
18 Q. So this particular position did not fire at Zarkovica on the 6th
19 of December, 1991?
20 A. No. Fort Srdj and to the north-east of Srdj which was Strincjera.
21 Q. Moving on, if -- could you please move the pointer further down.
22 And if I may have the assistance of the usher to move the map -- or
23 perhaps Mr. Negodic can do it. Yes. Thank you.
24 If you could just take -- move the map a little down, Mr. Negodic.
25 Could you pull -- that's a good position, yes. Thank you.
1 Could you move the pointer to the position indicated towards the
2 south at the point where there is a number 10, figure 10. If you would
3 just put your pointer there near -- just a little to the left from the
4 mortar -- the symbol of the mortar. Further to the left. That's right.
5 That's correct.
6 A. [Indicates]
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, Your Honour, the witness is
8 indicating right now a position south-west of the word Gospino Polje.
9 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you identify the location you're indicating
10 right now? What is that location? And I'm referring to the location and
11 not the weapons.
12 A. The location is Gospino Polje, towards the sea. It could be
13 Gorica, a settlement called Gorica today.
14 Q. And what -- what is the -- what does that symbol indicate? What
15 were the weapons or what was the weapon that was positioned there?
16 A. The symbol was a single-barrel rocket launcher, and the calibre
17 was 128 millimetres.
18 Q. Was it one such weapon or several?
19 A. If you're talking about 1991, to the first half of December, then
20 that is not the location of the single-barrel 128-millimetre launcher, but
21 on this map where you can see it now at Gorica, that was a later date.
22 Q. I know. I will come to that. I just wanted to find out when
23 you -- that indication, does it mean one rocket launcher or several?
24 A. No. We only had one single-barrel rocket launcher.
25 Q. And that symbol, does it indicate rocket launchers? Is that the
1 symbol used to indicate rocket launchers?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You just -- of course you referred to it. I will ask you the
4 question. Was this position deployed at that location on 6th of December,
6 A. No.
7 Q. And then could you please place your pointer and indicate as to
8 exactly where that particular weapon was positioned on 6th of December,
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. And what is that location known as?
12 A. It is 150 metres north of the Libertas Hotel. A small hill.
13 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please draw a square around that rocket
14 launcher which you indicated as not being there on the 6th of December,
15 1991. Just draw a square around it as clearly as possible with a blue
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And would you draw an arrow out of that square down and mark it
19 with "A". From the square if you draw an arrow out, going towards the sea
20 and put an "A" there.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And would you indicate with the same symbol the position at which
23 this weapon was in place on the 6th of December, 1991.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. It has gone out of the -- gone out of view, but perhaps once you
1 draw --
2 JUDGE PARKER: I think it has to, to be drawn. Then we'll have to
3 look at it.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.
5 Q. And could you put -- draw a circle around that position, the new
6 position that you indicated.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And draw a square going out down to the sea and put an "A" there.
9 Draw -- I'm sorry, not a square. Draw an arrow. Draw an arrow out of the
10 circle and indicate it with "A".
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. So your testimony is that the position indicated inside the square
13 marked "A" was in fact at the position within the circle indicated with
14 the -- with "A" on 6th of December, 1991?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And on 6th of December, 1991, was the rocket launcher positioned
17 towards the direction you drew it in? You -- your drawing is with the
18 rocket launcher facing east. Is that the correct direction?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, can you indicate as to when this particular weapon was at the
21 position within the square marked "A"?
22 A. On the 6th of December.
23 Q. No, my question is not the circle, but when was this weapon placed
24 at the position within the square marked "A". That is, the original
25 position. When was it there?
1 A. The second half of December.
2 Q. Thank you. Was the rocket launcher which is now indicated at the
3 position which you said was by a hotel -- I'm sorry, I've forgotten the
4 name. Could you replace what the location is again.
5 A. Hotel Libertas.
6 Q. Was it active on the 6th of December, 1991? Did it fire?
7 A. In the early afternoon one rocket.
8 Q. And is that all that this particular rocket launcher fired on 6th
9 of December, 1991?
10 A. Yes. Yes.
11 Q. Did you observe that particular fire, that particular one rocket
12 that was fired? Did you watch it? Did you observe it?
13 A. From the combat position that I was located in, the order came and
14 you could see with the naked eye the firing at Zarkovica.
15 Q. And did the rocket impact on -- I'm sorry. First my question is:
16 Towards which direction or at which JNA target was that particular rocket
17 fired at?
18 A. Zarkovica is an observation post and a combat position for the
19 recoilless gun, the Maljutka, and from time to time for the cannon -- the
21 Q. So it was fired at Zarkovica?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you see the rocket impact on Zarkovica?
24 A. Yes. A truck was hit.
25 Q. On Zarkovica?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. If you now move to the position where there is a
3 weapons position just at the word Gospino Polje. Could you please place
4 your pointer on that position, that is not east of -- that's correct, that
6 Now, it is already indicated at Gospino Polje. What was the
7 weapon that was located at this place? What does that position indicate?
8 A. The 78-millimetre cannon Zis.
9 Q. And how many cannons were there at that position?
10 A. One.
11 Q. Was that position deployed as at 6 December 1991?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was it active on 6 December, as in did that cannon fire?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So do you know towards which direction or at which JNA targets the
16 particular weapon fired at on -- during the 6th of December, 1991?
17 A. Yes. The Srdj Fort and around the fort of Srdj and the
18 observation post and combat position at Zarkovica.
19 Q. Mr. Negodic, where were you on 6th of December, 1991, during the
21 A. At the combat position that I just mentioned. The cannon is
22 underneath the bridge, and I was up on the bridge. That was the combat
23 position and my observation post at the same time.
24 Q. So in fact, you were present by this weapon during the course of
25 6 December 1991?
1 A. For most of the time.
2 Q. Is this position also known as Ivo Vojnovic Road under the bridge
3 in Lapad?
4 A. It is underneath the bridge close to the road that is called
5 Ivo Vojnovic, yes.
6 Q. Would you please move your pointer to the mortar position that is
7 just below that position. That is correct. What is that location? Could
8 you please identify that location.
9 A. It is the broader region around Gorica, between the Libertas Hotel
10 and Gorica, moving towards the meteorological station.
11 Q. And what were the weapons or what was the weapon positioned at
12 this location?
13 A. There were two mortars, 120 millimetre and two 82 millimetre ones,
14 and the combat position was set up and new weapons received in the second
15 half of December.
16 Q. You said there were two mortars, 120 millimetre and two 82
17 millimetres. So is it to be taken as two mortars or three mortars?
18 Because you said one 120 millimetres and two 82 millimetres.
19 A. Two 120 ones and two 82 millimetre ones, and it was the position
20 which was formed in the second half of November.
21 Q. So there were altogether four mortars there?
22 A. Four mortars, yes.
23 Q. And was this position deployed, or were those weapons in place at
24 that location as at 6 December 1991?
25 A. No.
1 Q. If not, were those weapons at another location or was that
2 position elsewhere as at 6 December 1991?
3 A. No. We didn't have those mortars at that time.
4 Q. When did you get these mortars?
5 A. In the second half of December.
6 Q. So is that position applicable for the period from the second half
7 of December 1991?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you please draw a square around it? There is already a
10 circle, but draw a square bringing this -- okay. That's all right.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And would you draw an arrow going out of the square and mark it
13 with letter "B".
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Would you please place your pointer on the position just above
16 Gospino Polje, to the north-east of Gospino Polje where there is the word
17 Montovjerna. That is correct. What is that location?
18 A. That is the position of the Zis 76-millimetre cannon.
19 Q. And does that symbol indicate the Zis 76-millimetre cannons? Is
20 that the symbol that indicates those weapons?
21 A. Yes. On our map, that was the symbol denoting the 76 Zis
22 millimetre cannon.
23 Q. In fact, it is identical to the symbol just at the position marked
24 as Gospino Polje?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was the weapon or what were the weapons positioned at this
3 A. The 76-millimetre Zis cannon, in the second half of December.
4 Q. I'm sorry. My question -- my previous question to you was what is
5 the location, but you identified the weapon. My first question. Could
6 you identify what the location is by its name?
7 A. It is the Montovjerna region.
8 Q. And was this position deployed as at 6 December 1991?
9 A. No. That position wasn't there on the 6th of December, 1991.
10 Q. Was it elsewhere?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you with you pointer indicate where it was positioned as at
13 6 December 1991?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. You are placing your pointer at the position just about the words
16 M. Petka. What is that location known as?
17 A. Mala Petka.
18 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please draw a square around the position
19 Montovjerna where you said was not there on 6th December, 1991.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And would you draw an arrow going out of it towards the sea. And
22 would you put the letter "C" there. Letter "C".
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And would you draw that position at the location where it was on
25 6 December 1991.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Would you put a -- draw a circle around that position.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And draw an arrow out of it and mark it "C".
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. So your testimony is that the position is within the square marked
7 "C" was in fact at the position within the circle marked "C" on
8 6 December 1991?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did this position at Mala Petka, within the circle marked "C", was
11 it active on 6 December 1991 or did fire on 6 December 1991?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If so, towards which direction or at what JNA targets did it fire?
14 A. The area of Pobrezje and Knezovi. You have Pobrezje on the map
15 and Knezovi not on the map.
16 Q. Can you please show where Pobrezje - I'm sorry for the
17 pronunciation - is on the map?
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. And the other location you indicated, towards the -- although it
20 is not on the map, can you indicate the direction?
21 A. It is below the Pobrezje area.
22 Q. So that is the direction towards which it fired on 6 December
24 A. Yes, four shells.
25 Q. Only four shells?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why did that weapon fire at that particular target? Was there
3 firing from Pobrezje or that other location you said -- mentioned on
4 6 December 1991?
5 A. Yes, underneath Knezovi, a recoilless gun.
6 Q. Towards which directions was there fire from those locations, the
7 JNA positions, where were they firing at?
8 A. They were not able to fire because they didn't have the same
9 range. You could just see the firing at the area of Solitudo and Gruz,
10 which was nearer.
11 Q. And you said that weapon only fired four rounds. After that what
12 happened? Why didn't it continue firing through the day?
13 A. The priority for the defence of Dubrovnik was given to a combined
14 attack of artillery, infantry, and tank weapons in the area of Strincjera,
15 Srdj, and Zarkovica.
16 Q. Therefore, what -- what was the reason to stop after four -- after
17 firing four rounds? Was there any reason behind -- behind the fact that
18 you fired only four rounds and then stopped? Was this weapon used for --
19 at another position or was the ammunition moved?
20 A. Yes, you're quite right. Your assumptions are correct. The
21 priority of the second Zis was with the targets of Srdj and Zarkovica, and
22 it fired at those combat positions 170 shells.
23 Q. So my question to you is: Was this weapon at Mala Petka moved or
24 was it -- were the ammunition moved to a position that was firing? That's
25 my question. Can you please articulate it?
1 A. The weapons remained at the combat positions. They were only
2 transferred from that combat position -- or, rather, only ammunition was
3 transferred to the other combat position, the one by the bridge near the
4 street of Ivo Vojnovic
5 Q. So your testimony is that it fired only four rounds and thereafter
6 its ammunition was transferred to the position at Gospino Polje?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And therefore, that position did not have ammunition thereafter to
9 be active with?
10 A. A few shells were left behind only.
11 Q. Could you please move your -- the pointer to the mortar position
12 indicated to the east of the position marked Montovjerna.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 Q. Yes. What is that location known as?
15 A. Dubrovkinja, the former barracks or simply near the SDK building.
16 Q. Is it the area of Gruz?
17 A. Yes. Yes, the area of Gruz, yes.
18 Q. And what were the weapons positioned at this place?
19 A. An 82-millimetre mortar or, rather, two of them.
20 Q. Two 82-millimetre mortars?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And were those weapons active on 6 December 1991?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What -- towards which direction or what targets did those weapons
25 fire at?
1 A. The area of the Srdj Fort and around it, as well as the
2 Zarkovica-Bosanka road towards Srdj.
3 Q. Could you please move your pointer down past the Old Town to the
4 position on the east of the Old Town, the mortar position.
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. What is that location known as?
7 A. It is called Lazareti, that position.
8 Q. And what were the weapons positioned there?
9 A. Two 82-millimetre mortars.
10 Q. Were those weapons active on 6 December 1991?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why not?
13 A. This position that we mentioned earlier on near the SDK building
14 and this position that we mentioned just now, the position Lazareti, that
15 is one unit subdivided into two. All the members of the crew were by the
16 SDK building, and only two mortars were left at the Lazareti position with
17 four shells.
18 Q. So what you say is the unit that was attached to the position near
19 the SDK building was the same unit that -- or the crew that operated the
20 position at Lazareti?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how many members were in the crew? What did the crew consist
24 A. You mean the entire crew when they are together?
25 Q. The entire crew.
1 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it's 17 to 18 men.
2 Q. So could this -- couldn't this crew divide up, separate up, and
3 couldn't some members have operated the position at Lazareti on 6 December
4 while others operated the position at -- near this SDK building?
5 A. This combat position, as can be seen on the map, is intended for
6 the old eastern part of Dubrovnik from the Dubac side. That is what its
7 basic purpose was. Subsequently, that part of the road had been mined,
8 and there was no need to use that road. Only four shells stayed behind.
9 Q. So what you're saying is that there was no necessity for -- or
10 necessity to use that particular position or the mortars at that
11 particular location as at 6 December 1991.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Who was the commander of the unit, the crew that manned both these
15 A. Are you referring to the name --
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. -- or the rank of the person involved?
18 Q. The name and the rank, if you know both.
19 A. A non-commissioned officer. Primic was his last name. The deputy
20 commander was Pilas.
21 Q. Were the mortars at that position on the 6th of December although
22 they did not fire?
23 A. They did not fire.
24 Q. I know. Were the mortars there? Were they in place on the 6th of
1 A. Yes, the mortars were there, but they did not fire.
2 Q. Were weren't those mortars moved to the position at SDK building
3 which should have given you four mortars at that position?
4 A. That was the order received, that the entire crew should be at the
5 combat position near the SDK building. If they receive other orders, then
6 the number of men required would go back to this other combat position.
7 Q. So your position is although the combat position was not active on
8 the 6th of December, it was maintained? The weapons were kept in place?
9 A. Yes. However, our main commander gave an explanation, namely that
10 fire should not be opened from that combat position because it is 100 or
11 120 metres away from the Old Town. So the order was issued not to open
12 fire from that position unless absolutely necessary. The reason probably
13 was, and our main commander probably thought along those lines, was not to
14 attract any kind of artillery fire against the nucleus of the Old Town.
15 That is what I have to say for the time being.
16 Q. What was the -- the nature of the absolute necessity which was
17 contemplated in keeping those mortars there? What was the potential
18 threat that was contemplated in keeping -- maintaining that position?
19 A. Well, a probable breakthrough from the area between Bosanka and
20 Zarkovica. I'm referring to the infantry.
21 Q. So the position was maintained in order to defend against --
22 against an infantry attack coming in towards the city and the Old Town?
23 A. Yes. Not only towards the Old Town but also east of the Old Town.
24 Q. Mr. Negodic, would you please move the pointer towards the
25 position which is indicated towards east of that previous position, the
1 mortar position.
2 A. [Indicates]
3 Q. What is that location known as?
4 A. Ploce, Zlatni Potok.
5 Q. And what was the weapon or what were the weapons that were in
6 place at that position?
7 A. That is the alternative Maljutka position.
8 Q. When you say alternative Maljutka position, could you please
9 explain alternative to which position?
10 A. When I say "alternative position," or to put it better, reserve
11 position, I'm referring to the position by the President Hotel at Lapad.
12 It is one and the same Maljutka. It was transported by a civilian car
13 which had its own trailer.
14 Q. So what you're saying is that this position was the reserve
15 position for the Maljutka position that discussed initially, the first
16 position we discussed in relation to this map?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Could you please place your pointer at that -- at the combat
19 position for this Maljutka and indicate it. And you would have to move
20 the map to bring it into view for the -- you'd have to bring the map
21 towards yourself, Mr. Negodic. Towards yourself. That's right.
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. So this particular position was the alternative position for the
24 position that you're indicating now. And when I say this, I mean the
25 position near Ploce.
1 A. This is the basic position for the Maljutka. The other position
2 is the alternative reserve position for this same Maljutka.
3 Q. And since you testified that on 6th of December, 1991, the
4 Maljutka was at this basic combat position, was there a Maljutka at the
5 position near Ploce gate on 6 December 1991? I'm sorry, I used the word
6 Ploce gate. It should be Ploce. It should be corrected to read as Ploce,
7 not gate.
8 A. No.
9 Q. So there was no --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- Maljutka at this place. What these two positions mean is that
12 there was one combat position and the other is a reserve position?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And there was no possibility, therefore, at one given time for
15 both positions to be active or deployed?
16 A. The same weapon cannot be used in two different places at the same
17 time for firing. We just have one Maljutka with two combat positions.
18 One is the basic position, and the other is the reserve position.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Negodic. At any given time, Mr. Negodic, during
20 the period October to December 1991, was there a mortar battery position
21 at Bogisica Park in Pile? And if you could start off by just -- for the
22 benefit of the Trial Chamber, would you please place your pointer at
23 Bogisica Park first.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. At any time during the period October 1st to December 31, 1991,
1 was there a mortar battery position at this point that you're indicating
2 now, that is, the Bogisica Park?
3 A. Yes, one, yes. One morning.
4 Q. When you said one, was it one mortar or one position? What did
5 you mean, please?
6 A. From that place, Bogisica Park, there were two mortars that fired
7 during the course of one day, or one morning, rather, and then they were
8 returned to their basic position, to the position near the SDK building,
9 that is.
10 Q. On 6th of December, 1991, were there mortars or was there a mortar
11 position at Bogisica Park?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Who -- what was the unit or who manned the positions at
14 Bogisica Park when that position was in deployment? And I'm not referring
15 to 6 December 1991. I'm referring to any time it was in deployment.
16 A. As I've already said, on the 6th of December, there was no mortar
17 at that position. In the month of November - I don't know the exact
18 date - there was firing that took place on one morning, namely two mortars
19 were transferred from Dubrovkinja, the SDK building, with half of the crew
20 that was commanded by Primic. They fired shells, and the same morning
21 they returned to their basic combat position.
22 Q. That was my question, Mr. Negodic. So it was the same crew that
23 operated on that particular day when there was firing from Bogisica Park.
24 It's a crew that operated the mortars at the position near SDK building
25 who also operated the position at Bogisica Park? Is that correct?
1 A. Yes. It's the same crew and the same mortars that were stationed
2 by the SDK building.
3 Q. And on 6 December 1991, that crew was by the position -- or the
4 crew was at the position by the SDK building? They were operating those
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also said that this crew had four mortars, two at the position
8 by SDK building and two at Lazareti.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On 6 December 1991, two mortars were at the position by SDK
11 building and the other two, the balance two were at the position at
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please place your pointer on the part below Bogisica
15 Park, on the Pile side of the Old Town.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. The big park on the -- yes, that position. At any time during the
18 period -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that.
19 Firstly, what is that location known as? Could you identify that
21 A. It is called Gradac.
22 Q. And at any given time between the period 1 October 1991 to
23 31 December 1991, was there a mortar or artillery position at this place,
24 at the place you just indicated as being referred to as Gradac?
25 A. Until the second half of December, there were no artillery weapons
2 Q. Since when -- and when you say second half of December, it was
3 then well beyond -- well after 6th of December that there were mortar
4 positions there?
5 A. At this particular place that I indicated just now, there were
6 never any mortars. Towards the end of the month of December, a Zis cannon
7 was positioned there.
8 Q. So on 6 December 1991, there were no weapons positioned at this
9 particular place you referred to as Gradac, which is below Bosanka and
10 towards the Pile side of the Old Town?
11 A. If you mean the northern side, in my opinion, it would have to be
12 one of the anti-aircraft weapons. If you mean towards Srdj, on the
13 northern side of Dubrovnik.
14 Q. Were there any artillery or mortars positioned there? Let me ask
15 you that question first. We'll get to anti-aircraft weapons later on.
16 A. No, no.
17 Q. Mr. Negodic, was there an ammunition store to the east of the Old
18 Town around Lazareti near the mortar position you indicated as at
19 6 December 1991? If you could just --
20 A. We had so little ammunition that all the ammunition was at the
21 combat positions. There were no warehouses or depots.
22 Q. Could you place your pointer at the mortar position in Lazareti?
23 A. [Indicates]
24 Q. Around there was there any form of ammunition store? And I'm not
25 talking about a huge warehouse or a depot but some form of ammunition
1 storage, perhaps even in a minor scale.
2 A. The combat position of Lazareti is in a small park. There are
3 steps leading down the wall, and underneath the steps a hundred years
4 ago -- this was built a hundred years ago. If you want to call it a
5 warehouse or a depot you can, but it wasn't really built for that purpose,
6 and it could store very little weapons or ammunition.
7 Q. So did it have perhaps, as you say, a little ammunition or weapons
8 stored there at this position as at 6 December 1991?
9 A. As I've already said, two mortars and four shells were there.
10 Q. So that -- no. My question to you is: So that position that you
11 spoke of, which is, to use your words, underneath the steps, that position
12 was used to store even four or five, even as insignificant amount of
13 ammunition? The place was used to store ammunition, that's my question.
14 I'm not talking about huge substantial amounts.
15 A. Yes. It is visually protected, that position is, both from land
16 and sea, from the positions of the Yugoslav People's Army and -- the
17 Yugoslav navy, that is. From the sea there is -- from that side, there is
18 also the island of Lokrum. It is straight ahead, and it is the only
19 island that can be seen on the map. On the northern side is the wall and
20 a big secondary school. So that position is invisible when directly
21 observed from Zarkovica, and also, as I've already said, when observed
22 from the sea.
23 Q. Did you have other ammunition stores or depots or warehouses
24 elsewhere in the wider area of Dubrovnik for your other positions? How
25 did you store your ammunition?
1 A. At combat positions. One Zis cannon, two Zis cannon, and the
2 combat position in Lapad where the auto camp is, then Solitudo there were
3 small houses made of reinforced concrete. Ammunition was placed in some
4 and personnel were in others. Combat position, the SDK building, near the
5 SDK building, these were buildings built a long time ago, stone buildings
6 with walls that are 60 to 70 centimetres thick. Ammunition was placed in
7 one room, and the personnel went into the SDK building basement.
8 Q. So your testimony is that ammunition was stored by the combat
9 positions themselves?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You spoke of the island of Lokrum. Were there Croat weapons
12 positioned on the island? And I'm referring to heavy weapons.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you -- you also referred to the island of Korcula. Can you
15 see the island on this map, Korcula? Lokrum can be seen towards the
16 south, but can you see Korcula?
17 A. No.
18 Q. How far is Korcula from the Old Town distance-wise in kilometres?
19 A. It's like the distance from The Hague to Amsterdam.
20 Q. Were there Croat heavy weapons positioned on the island of
22 A. No. They were abandoned combat positions of the Yugoslav People's
23 Army, according to my information, and that's where the cannons were
24 procured, whereas the other weapons came from the Metkovic-Ploce area,
25 from an unknown direction. At least I didn't know.
1 Q. Mr. Negodic, looking at this -- at this map, you already
2 identified all the Croatian positions. What are the squares that are
3 depicted here? What do they indicate? You don't have to go from one to
4 the other, but generally what do the squares indicate?
5 A. That is the operations or, rather, the line of the enemy positions
6 or shelters or things like that. That's what you see on maps in different
7 colours, and that was on our territory. So in daily combat reports, there
8 was not enough time for us to introduce these positions onto the maps.
9 Q. So the squares, as I understand what you're saying, in different
10 colours and combinations of colours indicate enemy positions or enemy
12 A. Not on this particular map, but if you have another map that we
13 can show, I'll be able to show you other markings or symbols --
14 Q. Mr. Negodic --
15 A. -- denoting --
16 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. I'm referring to this map. If you look
17 at this map, this map has some squares. Can you see that? Apart from the
18 Croatian positions, this map has some squares. Could you please look at
19 the map.
20 A. I'm looking at it on the screen, yes.
21 Q. Yes. Sorry about that. And I'm referring to those squares. What
22 do they indicate?
23 A. Those are deployment points for the enemy forces. All that is
24 lacking is to put the markings for the infantry.
25 Q. And why are they depicted in different colours or combinations of
1 colours? Just a general response would you.
2 A. I really can't remember now. Some are shelters in the fields or
3 things like that. But you know, it's been 13 years since then, so I
4 really can't remember, and it's not a very interesting topic.
5 Q. All right. I understand. Apart from the squares and the Croatian
6 positions, you also find arrows or lines, some broken lines and some
7 intact lines, going from the Croatian positions out towards the JNA
8 positions. Can you indicate as to what those lines symbolise or what do
9 they indicate?
10 A. These lines, when they're full lines from the combat position,
11 they are the basic sector of operation from that combat position. The
12 dotted lines, or the interrupted lines, are the reserve axis of target.
13 That would be it.
14 Q. Mr. Negodic, now you made three amendments to this map. Subject
15 to the amendments that you just made, does it now accurately reflect the
16 Croat mortar and artillery positions as at 6 December 1991, subject to the
17 amendments you just made?
18 A. Yes. With the amendments, yes.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honours, I move to tender this map into
21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to having
23 this map introduced into evidence, and I have three important reasons and
24 quite obvious reasons for that, and here is the first: We don't know and
25 cannot see on this particular map when it dates from, the date of the map.
1 We saw that the map was quite obviously compiled quite a considerable time
2 after the material time that the witness is talking about and a lot of
3 time after the indictment periods. It shows the situation which quite
4 obviously existed after the material time. That is my first reason.
5 And my second reason is this: We don't know whose map this is,
6 who compiled it, who drew it up. And now my third reason, Your Honour, we
7 don't know where this map -- how the Prosecution came by this map. Who
8 handed the map over to the Prosecution, how the map appeared and what the
9 map represents. It is quite obviously not a map from this witness, so,
10 Your Honour, we are opposed and object to having this map introduced into
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honours, I don't agree with that objection
15 at all. Firstly, one correction I have to make to Mr. -- my learned
16 friend's submissions is that he stated that this map indicates positions
17 after a very long period from the incident. There was -- the only point
18 of difference was with regard to the three amendments that the witness
19 made to this map, and he indicated that those positions came into being,
20 which are the original positions only towards the latter part of December,
21 which is not a substantially long period after the incident in question.
22 First point.
23 Second point is, Your Honour, initially this witness recognised
24 this map. He identified it as a working map of the Dubrovnik defence
25 force, and he says he's familiar with it and that it was in fact a combat
1 deployment map with which he was familiar.
2 Now, perhaps it -- this witness may not have prepared this map,
3 but that is not a ground to the admissibility -- to the inadmissibility of
4 the map.
5 And thirdly, Your Honours, the witness in his testimony indicated
6 the correct questions as at 6th December, and the map as it reflects now,
7 subject to the amendments, the witness just testified reflects the Croat
8 positions as at 6 December 1991. So do I not see the grounds or merits in
9 this objection at all.
10 JUDGE PARKER: The map will be received into evidence,
11 Mr. Petrovic. The evidence of the witness has sufficiently identified the
12 nature of the map, it being one with which he was and is familiar, and
13 from his evidence, he indicates those positions that were in place and
14 active on the 6th of December, 1991. The matters that you raise may be
15 ones that you would want to explore further in cross-examination to see
16 what weight we might attach to the evidence, but as a document, I think
17 the foundation has been properly laid for its admission.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked as P159.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed, Your Honours?
20 JUDGE PARKER: May I inquire of you first whether it is intended
21 that there be any further witness tomorrow.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Your Honours. This witness has been put
23 down for two days in chief, although I do not think I will take that long,
24 four sessions. I do not believe I would take that long, Your Honours. It
25 has been calculated in such a way because there are maps and questions
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I raise the question because there appears to
3 be a need for us to have to rise at 6.30, or thereabouts, this evening, so
4 we may be cutting your last period short.
5 You mentioned, then, that the witness was put down for two days
6 for examination-in-chief. I think it's actually two hours.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Your Honours. There was an amendment, as I
8 recall, the reason being that General Marinovic who was listed as a
9 witness and who was listed for two days was dropped by the Prosecution,
10 and hence we are covering his territory of testimony also through this
11 witness, and I -- I believe there has been an amendment which is dated
12 14 April 2004, and we have indicated to the Defence that this witness will
13 be taking -- I beg your pardon. May I just take a moment, Your Honour.
14 It's been indicated as taking two sessions. That's eight hours,
15 Your Honour, and as I understand it, a session goes as a day's testimony.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, we have a different understanding. We would
17 see each day as having three sessions, this being what will be the end of
18 the second of those sessions.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Of course in the same -- after the term two
20 sessions, it's further elaborated as eight hours. I -- but in any event,
21 Your Honours, I do not believe I will be taking two days.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I notice that the witness Marinovic was
23 contemplated as taking only one session in evidence in chief, and the
24 expansion of the evidence seems considerable.
25 But nevertheless, I think in view of this development, you can
1 anticipate that we will have to stop just around 6.30 this evening, and we
2 will have a break now.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: As Your Honour pleases.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 May I have the assistance of the usher to show another map to the
9 witness. Map bearing ERN number 0334-0722. Can the previous map also be
10 returned to the witness so that he can go through -- go through a
12 Q. Mr. Negodic, do you recognise this map that was just shown to you?
13 I'm referring to the new one. Do you recognise it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it a working map of the Dubrovnik defence headquarters?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it a combat deployment map showing Croat positions as well as
18 JNA positions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you familiar with it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you had an opportunity to work with it in the course of the
23 conflict in carrying out your tasks?
24 A. For what period of time do you mean?
25 Q. I'm saying during the conflict period when you carry out your
1 tasks, have you had the opportunity to work with this map?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we just hear what
4 that period was, because the conflict was in 1991 and 1992 in the area.
5 So could the witness please be more specific as to what he means.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, I will get to that at the
7 appropriate stage once I go through the markings. Thank you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It would be, I think, of some use to me if you got
9 that matter more clear before you work extensively on the map. Thank you.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Negodic, during the period 1 October 1991 to 31 December 1991,
12 have you had the opportunity to work with this map? I'm not saying this
13 identical map, but this particular map?
14 A. We worked with this map after the map we dealt with previously.
15 On this card, this new map, we can see the positions that we placed the
16 squares around. Now, on this new map you can't see the Maljutka combat
18 Q. I will come to that, Mr. Negodic. We are only on the issue of the
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, may I be permitted to address that
21 at the appropriate stage? It will be much easier then, because I intend
22 to go through question by question.
23 JUDGE PARKER: What I need at the moment is some indication that
24 this is a map that is relevant to the time with which the Chamber is
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
2 Q. Mr. Negodic, did you work with this map during the period
3 1st October 1991 to 31st December 1991?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What was the period during which you worked with this map?
6 A. Roughly from the new year of 1991 -- new year 1991, 1992.
7 Q. Would it be correct to say, then, you worked with this map during
8 the period 1st of January, 1992, to end of February 1992?
9 A. I can't remember exactly whether it was the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, but
10 the one we did before was the second part of December, and then the second
11 map comes afterwards.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, there was an objection a moment ago
14 by Mr. Rodic. Are you rising to put another objection?
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, not an objection
16 in that respect. I wanted to assist in clearing up the date with the
17 Court's permission.
18 In the upper right-hand corner of this map, it states the date of
19 the schematic on the map. So I merely wish to assist. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. 3rd of December, 1991. Thank you.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I thank my colleague. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Negodic, could you please, for the record, indicate the date
23 of this map which my learned friend just indicated to you at the top
24 right-hand corner?
25 A. It says on this map the 3rd of December, and this is the
1 deployment typed out for the 3rd of December in written form. It was
2 placed on the map.
3 Q. Excuse me. May I just interrupt. I just merely asked you to
4 indicate the date there. It says 3rd of December, 1991, yes or no?
5 A. [In English] Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Now we will go through each of the positions --
7 JUDGE PARKER: No, you won't. I'm still wanting to learn how the
8 contents of this map are relevant to the issues which we have to deal
9 with. We don't want to spend a lot of time learning about positions in
10 1992. One issue is when was the map drawn or prepared. Another issue is
11 when the witness worked with the map, and you've dealt with each of those.
12 Of greater concern is whether any part of what is depicted on here shows
13 positions at or before the 6th of December, 1991, and that's the issue
14 that hadn't yet been explored with the witness.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Well, Your Honours, I will just put a question
16 in this manner.
17 Q. Mr. Negodic, are there positions indicated on this map, and I'm
18 not referring to all positions, are there positions indicated on this map
19 which reflect Croat positions which existed on the 6th of December, 1991?
20 Are there certain positions on this map which indicate --
21 A. On this map we have the positions of the mortars, the Solitudo
22 mortar position, Ivo Vojnovic street below the bridge, and the mortar
23 position at the SDK building, as well as the Lazaret [as interpreted]
24 mortar position.
25 Q. And were those positions in place on the 6th of December, 1991?
1 A. On the 6th of December the four existed which I just mentioned.
2 Q. Can you, for convenience, just indicate on this map the positions
3 that are there -- that were there on the 6th of December?
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could I have the assistance of the usher to
5 place the map and the -- take the map along in such a way so that it's
7 JUDGE PARKER: Are you now seeking to move into evidence from the
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. I just --
10 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps you would wait until I have ruled on the
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Your Honour. I wasn't trying to get into
13 evidence, just to indicate as to what positions were there on 6th of
14 December so that Your Honour is -- it's clear to Your Honour what were
15 there and what were not.
16 JUDGE PARKER: You don't need to go to that detail for the
17 purposes of the ruling.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Your Honour. May I just be
19 permitted one more --
20 JUDGE PARKER: Can I interrupt, I'm sorry, but I would like to ask
21 the witness.
22 The map as you have indicated indicates it was prepared in respect
23 of the 3rd of December, 1991. Is that an indication that the information
24 which you set out in the chart on the right-hand top section of the map
25 shows positions as at the 3rd of December, 1991?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE PARKER: What is the significance of the date 3rd of
3 December, 1991?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't explain that. I don't know.
5 JUDGE PARKER: What is it do you say that is different about this
6 map from the one that we have just received before the break with respect
7 to the positions on the 6th of December, 1991?
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, there are some differences which I
9 wanted the witness to testify about and indicate for the Trial Chamber,
10 and for the reason that we need to get this testimony down and this map
11 tendered into evidence, too, but for that reason I require this witness to
12 indicate to the Trial Chamber the differences between the maps and
13 indicate them -- in addition to the previous map, Your Honour, this map
14 indicates anti-aircraft weapons which the previous map did not indicate,
15 and without the Trial Chamber having an overall picture of all Croatian
16 positions which existed as at 6 December, it would not be - what shall I
17 say? - a complete picture.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We may be getting nearer something. Is it the
19 position, as you understand it, that this map will disclose the positions
20 of the Croatian positions and of anti-aircraft weaponry --
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct.
22 JUDGE PARKER: -- as at the 6th of December?
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. In addition to the previous
24 artillery mortar positions.
25 JUDGE PARKER: The previous were artillery and mortars.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There are also anti-aircraft positions
2 indicated on this map, which is required --
3 JUDGE PARKER: And they relate to the 6th of December, as you
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is so, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: That being so, Mr. Rodic, I'm sorry, I must not
7 accept your objection at the present time. It appears that this map may
8 provide information of relevance, and we will assess that in view of more
9 detailed evidence.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: You may have the witness refer to the map.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Negodic, in the interests of time, I will not -- I don't
14 intend to go too much into the aspects of mortar and artillery positions
15 indicated in this map, but there are a couple of differences between the
16 two maps with regard to mortar and artillery positions, and in the
17 interests of time, I will guide you.
18 Would you agree that the Maljutka position which is indicated on
19 the previous map at Hotel President in Lapad by the coast is missing in
20 this map?
21 A. Yes, that position was moved to the island of Kolocep, which is
22 exactly opposite the position it is located at now. On the map, you can
23 just see a small portion of that island.
24 Q. Could you please put a cross at that position where the Maljutka
25 weapon you said was at that position as at 6 December 1991. Just place a
1 cross -- no, no, on the new map. Mr. Negodic, in the new map.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And would you give it a marking as "B". Put an arrow -- not in
4 that. In the new map. In the new map. Yes, please.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. This map also doesn't depict the rocket launcher which you marked
7 with a circle and "A" in the previous map by Hotel Libertas. Can you
8 place a cross at that position and mark it as "A".
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could I have the assistance of the usher to
10 move the map so that hotel -- so the new position that he marked comes
11 into view. You have to pull the map further up towards you -- towards the
13 Q. I'm referring to the rocket launcher that you drew with a circle
14 and marked "A", the new position. That is correct. Can you place it?
15 Mr. Negodic, no. Mr. Negodic. I'm referring to the new position
16 you marked, the one with the circle and "A". In the previous map you
17 marked a position, the position you said was there as at 6 December 1991.
18 Can you mark a cross at the position where it should be.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. That's right. And place an arrow and mark it as "A". Can you
21 make it big so that -- big enough, the arrow, so that it can be clearly
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. The next difference is the -- is that this map -- could you please
25 place the position that you drew in the previous map at Mala Petka.
1 Mala Petka, can you please draw a cross there?
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Can you make an arrow and place a "C" there.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And the position at Montovjerna, which is indicated on this map.
6 Could you please draw a square around it. Montovjerna. Draw a square
7 around it, around the position?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And mark it with "C".
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And put an arrow -- place an arrow going to that box. Thank you.
12 Would you please draw a square around the mortar position marked
13 BVG-1. That is a position you said was not on there on 6 December 1991.
14 West of Hotel Libertas. Yes, please. A square around the position and
15 mark it "B".
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you. And does this -- this map also does not indicate the
18 Maljutka by the Hotel Belvedere, but you indicated to the Trial Chamber
19 that that Maljutka was not there on the 6th of December, 1991, so
20 therefore, please don't draw anything. Thank you.
21 Now, Mr. Negodic, in addition to -- I beg your pardon. Subject to
22 these amendments that you just made to this second map in line with the
23 same amendments that you made to the previous map, the mortar and
24 artillery positions indicated in both maps compare with each other. Isn't
25 that the case? They are one and the same, subject to the amendments?
1 A. Yes. You just forgot the new position of the rocket launcher near
2 Gorica on the new map.
3 Q. I'm sorry. I thought you did place that new position. You
4 indicated the new -- the new positions you indicated were the position,
5 the rocket launcher at -- near Hotel Libertas, and the Zis gun at
6 Mala Petka which you just indicated, but you did say the rocket at Gorica
7 was not there as at 6 December 1991.
8 A. The rocket launcher was near Libertas on the 6th of December.
9 However, on the new map, the combat position of the rocket launcher is not
11 Q. Could you just place your pointer to the position that you're
12 talking about.
13 A. [Indicates]
14 Q. Isn't it the case, sir, that you said that the rocket launcher
15 which was at that position which is indicated at that position was not
16 there on 6th of December, 1991?
17 A. Not on the 6th of December. But what we are marking is the combat
18 position after the 6th of December on the new map, or it is not necessary.
19 Q. No. You misunderstood me. You indicated in the previous map
20 positions that were there as at 6th of December, 1991; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are those positions now - I'm referring to the positions that were
23 there as at 6th of December, 1991 - are those positions that were there on
24 6th of December, 1991, reflected in the new map, this map, bigger map?
25 Are all artillery and mortar positions that were in existence on the 6th
1 of December, 1991, reflected in this new map?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are there any mortar or artillery positions reflected on this new
4 map, the bigger map, which were not there on 6th of December, 1991, which
5 you have not already marked with a square?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So therefore, do you agree with me that the mortar and artillery
8 positions - and I haven't still come to the anti-aircraft weapons
9 positions - the mortar and artillery positions that are now reflected in
10 this new map were not -- reflect the positions which were there as at 6th
11 of December, 1991? Subject to the amendments that you just made.
12 A. The situation on the new map with the amendments shows the actual
13 state of affairs on the 6th of December if we include the letter "A" by
14 Libertas Hotel with a small arrow. That is the position on the 6th of
16 Q. That is so, sir. And you just -- just now you did indicate that
17 position with a cross and the letter "A". Isn't that the case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That is what I'm saying. Subject to the amendments that you just
20 made, now the artillery and mortar positions of the Croat forces are now
21 indicated on this bigger map. Isn't that the case? It is a correct
22 reflection of the situation as at 6th of December, 1991.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. In addition to the mortar and artillery positions
25 indicated so far, there are some additional positions depicted in this
1 map. Isn't that the case?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we will quickly, in the interests of time, go through those
4 positions. If you could just indicate, there is a position, if you can
5 adjust the map, to the east of the word Solitudo near a triangle symbol
6 which indicates something like a figure of a man.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please give the name of the location? I think you have to
9 bring the map down a little bit further towards yourself. Yes. What is
10 that location known as?
11 A. I have to point out that anti-aircraft defence is not my field. I
12 shall tell the Honourable Trial Chamber everything I know about
13 anti-aircraft defence, though.
14 So this position, to the best of my knowledge, is the three-barrel
16 Q. And can you -- in the context of what you just stated,
17 Mr. Negodic, I take it that these new positions are all anti-aircraft
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And anti-aircraft weapons were not in your control. It was a
21 different division?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Would you be in a position to speak about these positions when we
24 go through each and every one of them? And I won't go into too many
1 A. Yes, as far as I know. As far as I can be of assistance.
2 Q. Could you then quickly identify the location that you just
3 indicated as an anti-aircraft weapons position. What is the name of that
5 A. Lazareti Orsan.
6 Q. And do you know how many weapons, anti-aircraft weapons were
7 positioned there?
8 A. One three-barrelled gun.
9 Q. Was it in deployment -- was that position in deployment on the 6th
10 of December, 1991?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know if it was active on the 6th of December, 1991?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If so, do you know towards which direction or at what -- which JNA
15 positions it fired?
16 A. They fired from that position to the area of the fort of Srdj, and
17 before that the slopes and the peaks. What I know is that the firing did
18 come from that position because, as far as I know, every third or fourth
19 round fired by the three-barrel gun is a tracer round that can be seen, so
20 it is quite obvious.
21 Q. Was this weapon fixed there or was it mobile, as in was it on a
23 A. As far as I know, this three-barrel gun was mounted on a vehicle.
24 Q. And did it move from that position as it fired?
25 A. As far as I know, it was not necessary to carry out any major
2 Q. Could you please move your pointer to the -- the next
3 anti-aircraft weapon that is indicated towards south-east on the same map.
4 A. [Indicates]
5 Q. What is that location known as?
6 A. The Lapad coast.
7 Q. And how many weapons were there, anti-aircraft weapons?
8 A. One single-barrelled gun, I think, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure
9 whether it's a single-barrelled gun or a two-barrelled gun. I'm not sure.
10 Q. And did it -- was it deployed on 6th of December, and if so, did
11 it fire? Was it active on the 6th of December, 1991.
12 A. Yes, but I am not aware of the details. I do not know, because it
13 was not possible to follow its targeting.
14 Q. Would you move further down. There is -- the next anti-aircraft
15 weapon is just above the Old Town. Would you take your pointer to that
17 A. [Indicates]
18 Q. Was that anti-aircraft weapon fixed there or was it on a vehicle,
19 or how was it deployed there?
20 A. As far as I know, it is either Strela 2M or the so-called Igla.
21 They were deployed in two positions, and I cannot give the exact details
22 as to which anti-aircraft weapon was in one place and which one was at the
23 other place. Above the Old Town it could be Strela 2M or Igla, one or the
24 other. It was transported in passenger vehicles. It is not something
25 that has to be mounted anywhere. It can be kept on the shoulder.
1 Q. And do you know as to if on the 6th of December, 1991, one of
2 these weapons were there at this particular position, or was it moved or
3 was it there?
4 A. I cannot know with any degree of certainty, because on the 6th of
5 December, there were other things to do, but I know that in that area
6 above the Old Town and Ploce there were two combat positions with
7 alternative positions to the west of the Old Town.
8 Q. And when you say alternative positions, can you show its
9 alternative position? Where was it -- where did it alternate with?
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. And for the record, the witness indicates the position -- the park
12 just above the words, "Rt Lovrljenac." I beg your pardon for the
13 pronunciation. Mr. Negodic, can you read those words, the R-t
15 A. That is the location of the Gradac park. That is above the cape,
16 the Rt.
17 Q. And just one -- I will quickly finish, Your Honours. I note the
19 In map drawing, in the practice of map drawing, when you have
20 these type of symbols, which is the exact position of the weapon, the base
21 of the symbol or at the head of the symbol?
22 A. As far as anti-aircraft is concerned, it would be the top of the
23 arrow. That would be the direction for aiming. And as far as artillery
24 is concerned, if this is, say, a mortar position, then it would be the
25 middle of a semicircle.
1 Q. Thank you. Moving on to the next --
2 JUDGE PARKER: No. I'm afraid it be necessary for us to adjourn
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: So we must continue tomorrow afternoon.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I at this stage tender this map into
7 evidence because --
8 JUDGE PARKER: I think we can deal with that tomorrow.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I must ask you to return tomorrow afternoon to
11 continue, if you would be so good.
12 We will adjourn now.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.32 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 23rd day of April,
15 2004, at 2.15 p.m.