1 Monday, 5 July 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Thank you for being available once
7 again, Dr. Svicevic.
8 Mr. Rodic, are you in a position to proceed?
9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
10 afternoon, first of all. We are in a position to proceed. And as we
11 promised last Friday in relation to the journal, I would first like to
12 submit to all the parties the corrected version of the diary with the
13 corrections inserted by Mr. Svicevic so that everyone can have a look.
14 And another thing that we have received as promised is the working
15 notebook, the original copy from Belgrade. And this is another thing that
16 we would like to distribute to all the parties, the Trial Chamber and my
17 learned friends and colleagues from the OTP so that they can compare the
18 original with the copy of the working notebook.
19 Therefore, if you are in agreement, Your Honours, I would like to
20 have the usher's assistance, please, to distribute copies of this exhibit.
21 And then after that, everyone can have a look at the working notebook.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic. I did omit to remind
23 Dr. Svicevic of the affirmation he took at the commencement of his
24 evidence, which still applies, of course.
25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to
1 point out the following: The first new copy was submitted to the OTP
2 earlier and in a timely fashion. Therefore, they can now familiarise
3 themselves with the document.
4 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I just --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
6 MS. SOMERS: Last night, actually it was towards the evening hours
7 that we received the alleged second copy. So the Chamber realises that we
8 have not had any glimpse of what is purported to be an original document
9 and only toward the end of the -- I would say early evening hours did we
10 see the other one.
11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, regardless of that, and
12 although the document was, in fact, submitted to the OTP yesterday in the
13 evening, the same applies as we had said on Friday. The contents of all
14 the notes are entirely identical as in the copied version. The only thing
15 that has been corrected is the order in which these notes were copied from
16 the journal, and this is something that was disputed in cross-examination
17 on Friday.
18 I would also like to have the usher's assistance, please, if the
19 Trial Chamber is prepared to see the original, I've marked it out so you
20 can compare the original copy to the copy that has been delivered.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Are you going to have the witness confirm the
22 nature of what he has done and what we now have, Mr. Rodic?
23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 WITNESS: RADOSLAV SVICEVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Further examination by Mr. Rodic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Can the journal be shown to the witness and also
3 a copy of the exhibit.
4 Mr. Svicevic, can you please tell us, this booklet that you have
5 in front of you, the working notebook, is that your working notebook, the
6 one that you spoke about and the one a copy of which we have been using so
8 A. Yes, this is my working notebook. This is an authentic document
9 which I kept in 1991.
10 Q. This working notebook, does it bear some sort of a serial number
11 or a mark?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It bears the number 4, so this is the fourth working notebook that
14 I kept while I was within the composition of the 2nd Operational Group.
15 Q. Tell me, please, as far as this document is concerned, the one
16 that we've made copies of, these pages from your notebook, did you copy
17 this entry into your notebook following the pages as given here in this
18 document that's been delivered?
19 A. Yes, I did this on Friday, just after the trial finished for the
20 day at the hotel where I'm staying. And the gentleman who provided
21 instructions was present. He provided instructions as to how I should
22 make the entries.
23 Q. Therefore, you confirm that you have copied from your original
24 notes and that you have copied the entries into this document?
25 A. Yes, in order to make the text more comprehensible.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my proposal for now is
3 that the Trial Chamber have a look at the original of this working
4 notebook and my colleagues from the OTP may as well have a look.
5 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Mr. Rodic,
6 if the witness confirm that the order, what he says is the order that is
7 the correct order in which the pages were -- the notes were made. That
8 needs to be clarified, I think.
9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Svicevic, can you please take this document now, look at your
11 own handwriting and the copy. Sir, did you copy these in the same order
12 as given in your working notebook between page 126 and page 138? Can you
13 please compare these.
14 A. Yes, but page 126 is a page that I copied earlier. As for 128 and
15 onwards, I copied those on Friday.
16 Q. Those copies, do they -- your copies of the notes from the working
17 book, do they entirely correspond with the notes from the journal on the
18 pages marked, the original journal?
19 A. Yes, in their entirety.
20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, is this sufficient?
21 JUDGE PARKER: What I'm interested is in what order were the notes
22 made? They were not made in page order according as I understood the
23 evidence of the witness. So we need to know what page follows what page
24 as they are -- as they were written and as we are to read them.
25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Svicevic, can you please now turn to page 126 and 127 of your
2 journal and tell us, which page is it on which you copied the original
3 page 126 by bears the following date in the original journal, the 5th of
4 December? Did you copy that page?
5 A. Yes, I copied that page, and this is my original handwriting, what
6 you can see here. And that is identical to page 126.
7 Q. My apologies.
8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] May I have a moment, please.
9 Q. Sir, can you please tell me briefly, this entry dated the 5th of
10 December on page 126, how does it begin and how does it end?
11 A. It begins with the mark, the 5th of December 1991, at Vojnovic,
12 (Delo), area of Dubrovnik, Dubr abbreviation, duel between the Croatian
13 armed forces and the ZNG. There were casualties.
14 Q. Can you tell me how it ends.
15 A. It ends like this: "Stani Mirovic, so much for the blue."
16 Q. Thank you. Page 127, are there any entries there?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can you please have a look at page 128, any entries there?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What about page 129, can you tell us about that page? How does it
22 A. It begins with the following text: SIV, and then the letter L is
23 missing, and then two full stops, team leader for Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 The second --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the word.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Operations officer.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the interpretation on
3 page 5, line 24, is says SIV, which means nothing, and this is not a word
4 that was actually used in the courtroom. Therefore, can we please have
5 this clarified.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.
7 MR. RODIC:
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic, your mic is not on.
11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] It's on, Your Honour. My signal says
12 the mic on.
13 JUDGE PARKER: All right. You just haven't a red light any more.
14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So Mr. Svicevic, on page 129, if you can just tell me the
16 following, how the entry begins.
17 A. C. Doyle.
18 Q. How does it end on page 129?
19 A. "He had the privilege to meet with A. Izetbegovic."
20 Q. Thank you. Where do the notes continue from that meeting?
21 A. They continue on page 130, and the only entry is "he refers also
22 to Bihac" and this is underlined.
23 Q. And how does that continue?
24 A. Page 131.
25 Q. The beginning?
1 A. "The new task for the mission is to establish contact with the
3 Q. Thank you. The last passage on page 131.
4 A. "This can be avoided if the mission is allowed to go and see the
6 Q. Is this an abbreviation?
7 A. KT, yes, that means commander.
8 Q. Can you please tell us how it continues on page 132.
9 A. 132, it's a note that I made during the conversation, and it says
10 "representative of the SO of Mostar for the JNA and the community to share
11 the fate, be it good or bad."
12 Q. The next page, 133, how does it begin?
13 A. Here we have a problem with the way the reservists are behaving
14 and where they are moving.
15 Q. The last passage on that page?
16 A. "In all the communities in which he had talks, there is respect
17 for the JNA."
18 Q. Page 134, please.
19 A. "G. Strugar, column, pursuant to request of the Neum president, he
20 stopped the units at a moment when fire was being opened at us from that
22 Q. Sir, the last passage, how does it begin?
23 A. "He wants to separate the JNA," but it's only now that I notice I
24 made an entry here. Instead of the JNA I wrote "the authorities." That
25 was on Friday, so that was lack of attention on my part. "He wants to
1 separate the JNA." And then I just copied "the authorities," but if you
2 look at the photocopy, it says "the JNA," in fact.
3 Q. Thank you. What about page 135?
4 JUDGE PARKER: Before you go on, what I hope you will get clear,
5 Mr. Rodic, is whether as the notes were made, whether the notes on 134
6 follow directly on from the notes on 133, and whether 133 follows directly
7 from 132. That's a point that was in dispute on Friday.
8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Svicevic, can you please tell us in which order did you make
10 these notes in relation to the page numbers in your journal? Which were
11 the first ones that you wrote down? Where did you begin writing when you
12 attended this meeting?
13 A. I didn't put the date when the meeting actually took place.
14 Q. Can you just please tell us the order in which the notes from the
15 meeting were made in relation to the page numbers in your journal.
16 A. This was taken down in a way that is typical of my way of thinking
17 and my way of writing. I always used to write on the odd pages, and then
18 I would use the empty pages to enter any of my personal, additional notes.
19 In this case, you have page 133, which is the continuation -- the
20 continuation is on page 135. So the logical sequence of the last passage
21 from 133, "in all the communities in which he held talks, there is respect
22 for the JNA." And then it follows on the next page: "He's aware of the
23 problem in connection with the disappearance of the pilot." So this is
24 all about the positions put forward by Mr. Doyle. At one point in time,
25 if I may clarify, when this passage was finished, General Strugar joined
1 the discussion and then his contribution on page 134 is something that I
2 put down on page 136, and after that, again, Colm Doyle in response to
3 Mr. Strugar, he continues, and then you have the discussion down from the
4 middle of page 135.
5 Q. And where can we see a continuation of that discussion between
6 Mr. Doyle from page 135?
7 A. It continues on page 137.
8 Q. So this was the order in which you made these notes during the
10 A. Yes. General Strugar's contribution is on pages 134 and 136.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid that leaves me then in doubt about the
13 earlier pages. I had understood the witness to be saying that as he made
14 his notes, 130 followed on from 129. And 131 from 130. But it seems that
15 that may not be what he intends to say. So could you perhaps clarify
17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We'll clarify that, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Svicevic, can you please look at page 129. This beginning
19 here, the beginning of the entry, Colm Doyle and Mr. Kogan [phoen]?
20 A. Yes, it's just here on 129. 129, it's an odd page, and then it
21 continues on 131, another odd page. These are words as actually spoken by
22 Mr. Doyle. And then on page 133, the same thing, this continues from page
23 131. Page 135 from the middle of the page also continues from page 133,
24 and this ends on page 137, which I think is just like I said.
25 As for Mr. Colm Doyle, his position and his contribution was
1 recorded on odd pages.
2 Q. So here we have the beginning of the entry in reference to
3 Mr. Doyle on page 129 as you said. Can you tell us what these entries on
4 page 130 are about in reference to Bihac and on page 132, the president of
5 the SO of Mostar about the JNA and the community needing to share the
6 fate, be it good or bad.
7 A. I couldn't follow the transcript of these conversations, but talks
8 were held, and I thought that was important. This is something that I
9 considered important, and I thought this would later be subject to regular
10 procedure. These conversations in an abbreviated form would then be sent
11 on to the General Staff. That's what I believed. It's a remark that I
12 made, that during the conversation Bihac was also referenced. But it has
13 been a very long time, and I really can't remember specifically what was
14 being said about Bihac during the discussion.
15 Q. Thank you. Tell me about page 132.
16 A. Yes, that, too, shows that I left the even page open. Maybe not
17 always, but very often I left it empty so that I could maybe write down a
18 comment that I had or some ideas that I had. And this was something that
19 I could then later use during the discussion.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, does this clarify the
22 matter sufficiently as to what the order was in which the entries were
24 JUDGE PARKER: For the moment, yes. I think inevitably there will
25 need to be some further cross-examination as foreshadowed. If at the end
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of that, if there is still some confusion, the Chamber may need to ask
2 some further questions. I think at least we have the witness's account of
3 the order in which he made these notes. Thank you.
4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Now, are you wanting to tender those now,
6 Mr. Rodic?
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence abides
8 by its proposal to have this admitted as a Defence exhibit, and can it
9 please be assigned a number, too.
10 JUDGE PARKER: There was originally an objection, Ms. Somers. Is
11 that maintained?
12 MS. SOMERS: The objection, Your Honour, is maintained. I have
13 asked for purposes of cross-examination, Ms. Mahindaratne will conduct it,
14 but the objection stands.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Can we see the original notebook, please.
16 I think before we go further, Mr. Rodic, we ought to get a number
17 of these documents marked for identification. In view of the objection
18 for the reasons originally given, they won't be received at exhibits at
19 this stage, at least, but they will now be marked for identification.
20 Now, first, we have two pages that were put to the witness on Friday in
21 the course of the cross-examination by the Prosecution. I believe they
22 should be received as one document to be marked for identification with a
23 P number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Just one second, Your Honour.
25 That will be P216 -- excuse me, 218.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Next, today is the original notebook which will be
2 marked with a D number.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: D --
5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. As for the original of the
6 diary, we already asked Mr. Svicevic. He told us that he wishes to hand
7 over the diary to the Court so that they could see it. But he did also
8 unequivocally express his view that he wanted to keep his notebook once
9 the Court has seen the document. Your Honour, if you wish, of course you
10 can ask the witness yourself.
11 JUDGE PARKER: No, Mr. Rodic. The document will need to be
12 exhibited. In due course, it can be returned. But for the purposes of
13 the trial and until the conclusion of the trial, it will need to remain as
14 an exhibit. I can understand, though, that the witness would have a
15 personal attachment to the document and would like to ensure that it will
16 be returned. The processes can ensure that, and the witness conveniently,
17 I would think, through you can ensure that once a decision is delivered,
18 the document can be uplifted.
19 So it will be --
20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE PARKER: -- marked for identification now.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It is D93 MFI.
23 MS. SOMERS: May I ask, Your Honour, for clarification on the P
24 document. Was that an MFI?
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. All of them at the moment are being treated
1 on the same basis.
2 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Now there comes the further composite document,
4 which is both further copies of the notebook, handwritten for ease of
5 reading, a copy of it, the relevant pages, and then a translation of those
6 pages as rewritten from Serbian to English. And that will again be marked
7 for identification with a D number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D94 MFI.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
10 Now, Mr. Rodic, does that conclude the re-examination you planned
11 for the witness?
12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, because the
13 Prosecution completed their cross-examination on Friday. And this
14 document gave rise to a problem, so I thought that perhaps my learned
15 friend of the Prosecution, once all of this was corrected and once the
16 original was brought in, I thought that perhaps they wanted to deal with
17 the corrections, perhaps that they would have additional questions in
18 relation to that in particular, and then I would follow on with my further
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask something?
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the notebook that I gave you, on
23 page 1, I think, there is a quotation of an order that is marked as
24 "strictly confidential." It was used for our everyday work, that
25 particular order. And now I'm asking the Honourable Trial Chamber whether
1 I am relieved of responsibility in that respect; namely, that I'm handing
2 over to you some material that contains a strictly confidential document.
3 JUDGE PARKER: You are relieved of responsibility because you're
4 handling -- handing over a document in the course of these proceedings.
5 Whether counsel would like to move that the document as a whole be treated
6 as a confidential document as an exhibit is a matter that we will leave
7 for the moment.
8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, following the wishes of
9 our witness, Mr. Svicevic, I would kindly ask to have that document
10 treated in that manner.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers, do you have any view on the document
13 itself, whether confidentiality is established in respect of the document?
14 MS. SOMERS: Having not seen the document, Your Honour, I don't
15 know what it is that's being referred to. In terms of confidentiality,
16 the other particular pages I would assume bear not that same problem. And
17 if the Chamber does have it with the MFI retained, there is a good chance
18 the Prosecution will want to have it looked at perhaps in a more
19 scientific manner, so we would have to seek the ability to do so. I think
20 that could hamper it. Perhaps that one page could be closed off if that
21 is a concern, as confidential, but I think the rest should remain. And
22 there has been no indication throughout testimony that there was any
23 problems keeping it as a regular exhibit. So perhaps just limiting it so
24 that it would not hamper any efforts for further possible scientific
25 inquiry. We would like to have the opportunity to examine it even in the
1 hands of the registry.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is it the first page that concerns you, Doctor?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember whether there's
4 something else there, too. But I was primarily referring to the first
5 page. At any rate, I myself believe that this document is my private,
6 personal affair, and if you relieve me of this responsibility, I'm not
7 opposed to having it kept.
8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wishes to
9 point out that as far as this diary is concerned, we would like to exhibit
10 only pages 126 through 138, those that were actually the subject of the
11 examination-in-chief of this witness. So this document basically pertains
12 to those pages only.
13 JUDGE PARKER: For the moment, only those pages will need to be
14 exhibited. But it may become -- other pages may become relevant. There's
15 no way of knowing.
16 I think in view of the indication just given by Dr. Svicevic,
17 there's really no need for us to make any particular order about
18 confidentiality at the present time. So we'll leave it at the moment as
19 the notebook being marked for identification; and if it comes to be
20 formally received as an exhibit, we'll decide then whether the whole
21 notebook or merely those pages are to be received.
22 Now, Ms. Somers, comes the question whether you think it is more
23 appropriate that you seek leave to reopen your cross-examination in
24 respect of the entries in the notebook in view of the new material, or
25 whether you would prefer the re-examination to be concluded before you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 MS. SOMERS: We definitely do wish to cross-examine, if I
3 understand your question correctly.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It's a question of whether you cross-examine now on
5 the notebook.
6 MS. SOMERS: I can't cross-examine on the original notebook having
7 not seen it. So there are some questions that we have about the second
8 alleged rewrite, and there is a very good possibility that after further
9 examination of the notebook by whatever means or through whatever persons,
10 there may be other questions. They may be subject simply to argument
11 depending on results. But there are questions definitely about the new
13 JUDGE PARKER: You will be dealing with this topic today on one
14 basis or another. And the witness will be allowed to go today when his
15 evidence is concluded. If there should be reason for you to move at some
16 later date for leave to further cross-examine, that we will face when it
17 arises. You may certainly see this document now.
18 My question to you was whether you see any distinction between
19 cross-examining on this document now or whether you would prefer the whole
20 of the re-examination to conclude and then you cross-examine on this
21 document at the end of that.
22 MS. SOMERS: May I ask for just a moment, please.
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber would perhaps allow that the Defence
25 conclude its re-examination, grant us a 10-minute recess to take a look at
1 the notebook, at least preliminarily, after their re-examination, and then
2 permit us to proceed afterwards, I think it would at least facilitate some
3 inquiry that would be beneficial. But I think that's probably the most
4 expeditious way and efficient way, but we will definitely want to ask more
6 JUDGE PARKER: I would certainly go one further and say that you
7 may have the document now to examine, and that might give you much longer
8 than 10 minutes while the re-examination is continuing. We don't want to
9 drag this out for time unnecessarily. There are other witnesses waiting,
10 and there's a number of them to be got through this week.
11 Mr. Rodic, I think it's most convenient from a time point of view
12 if you were to proceed to conclude your full re-examination now. The
13 Prosecution will then be able to cross-examine again only on the issue of
14 the document; and if something fresh comes out of that, you will be
15 allowed to further re-examine again on that new issue that arises. Okay?
16 If you could proceed on that basis; and in the meantime, I see the
17 Prosecution have the notebook already. So they can be looking at it as
18 you proceed.
19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And I will be
20 quite brief in the additional examination I have.
21 Q. Mr. Svicevic, this document has already been discussed rather
22 extensively; that is to say, the original of your diary, of your working
23 notebook, as well as this copy of this same diary that was copied out in
24 hand because of the illegible handwriting, as you had put it.
25 My question is the following: Let me ask you once again: On the
1 6th of December, did you keep notes about the meeting and what was said at
2 the meeting that you attended, the meeting that took place between
3 Mr. Strugar and Mr. Doyle?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you ever change anything in relation to the entries in this
7 A. I certainly did not change anything. Had I changed anything, I
8 would have changed the date. It is only logical that after the 5th comes
9 the 6th, and then the 6th is when the event took place and it is only
10 logical that this was made, this entry, on the 6th of December 1991.
11 Q. When was the first time that you heard on the 6th of December that
12 there was some fighting in the area of responsibility of the
13 2nd Operational Group?
14 A. I think that I pointed that out twice, that this was between 1500
15 hours and 1600 hours after a telegram was received from the military naval
16 sector, the one that was sent by the crisis staff through the VPS to the
17 2nd Operational Group.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has
20 completed its redirect.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE PARKER: Not yet.
24 You may now. Thank you for waiting.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Further cross-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Svicevic. Today you tendered to Court a newly
3 written or a second version of the rewritten version of your notes from
4 pages 129 to page 137 of your book. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. But that was pursuant to your instructions. Perhaps not
6 your instructions, but rather the Honourable Chamber's instructions that I
8 Q. And now this second version, in fact, reflect the order and
9 correctly reflect what is in your so-called original version of the
10 notebook. That's correct?
11 JUDGE PARKER: Do you mean original copy or the original notebook
12 itself, Ms. Mahindaratne?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The original copy. Thank you, Your Honour, for
14 the correction. The original copy.
15 JUDGE PARKER: That's not the evidence of the witness. He's added
16 in the part that was omitted.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, my point is that this second
18 rewritten version follows the same order that has been followed by the
19 copy of the original version, the alleged original version.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It follows page order.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you were putting.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
24 Q. You heard me, Dr. Svicevic. Is that correct?
25 A. First of all, my correction is that this is no second version. It
1 is the same version, but technically it was done pursuant to your request.
2 I used whatever was in my original notebook in order to make my
3 handwriting more legible. And then the slovenly way in which I wrote down
4 some of the notes, well, this is all about my mental principles according
5 to which I work.
6 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, but my point is -- let me put it in a
7 different way. Do you agree that the version that was tendered before,
8 the rewritten version, and this second rewritten version do not compare in
9 terms of the order that it follows? Do you agree that there is a
10 difference there?
11 A. It's entirely identical. It's only a technical matter between the
12 two copies, only the technique itself is different. But I must point out
13 that in the first copy I left out a page, I think it was 130, pertaining
14 to my commentary in relation to the president of the SO Mostar. So in the
15 first copy I left that out. And in the second copy, instead of writing
16 down "JNA," I wrote "the authorities." So these are small technical
17 errors that may have occurred, but the essence remains absolutely the
19 Q. Let me put it to you this way, sir: According to your previous
20 version of the rewritten, I'm referring here to the rewritten version, the
21 words "bloodshed, lifting of the blockade, and genocide" are attributable
22 to General Strugar, whereas according to this current version which was
23 tendered today which follow the order of the original version, the
24 so-called original version, those words "bloodshed, genocide, lifting of
25 the blockade" are attributable to Colm Doyle. Isn't that the case?
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I please have a look at the
3 document. I don't have it front of me.
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. That is
5 not what the witness is saying. The witness has tried on several
6 occasions to explain what this is about, and he has explained --
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, don't you start telling him what he
8 explained at the moment. This is a further cross-examination. If there's
9 a question that is not clear, fine. We can deal with that. But we'll
10 leave the witness who is well able to explain what it is that he's done
11 and what he means.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown D -- I'm afraid I
13 forget what the number was which was given to the marked for id --
14 JUDGE PARKER: [Microphone not activated]
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.
17 JUDGE PARKER: D92.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, would you please compare the rewritten version which you had
20 tendered earlier on and the rewritten version that you tendered today, and
21 could you confirm that there is a difference with regard to that
22 particular paragraph.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I have Madam Registrar given the witness
24 D92, the other version, the previous version.
25 Q. Now, would you please turn to the paragraph which attributes words
1 "bloodshed, lifting of the blockade, and genocide" to General Strugar in
2 the previous version, and the same words now attributable to Colm Doyle in
3 the current version.
4 A. You are simply not right. In the first version, 12 pages,
5 General Strugar underlined "bloodshed, lifting of the blockade, and
6 genocide". In the original on page 136, the same thing as part of the
7 contribution by General Strugar. In the part that was made tidier,
8 technically speaking, on Friday that I was told to do on page 136 is the
9 same where General Strugar says, and these are comments made by him, that
10 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, if it goes that far, there will be
11 huge bloodshed there, and something about the lifting of the blockade, and
12 also that the population of that area had the additional burden of
13 genocide back from World War II. These are brief notes that I made which
14 now I'm not able to quite put into the correct order in which they were
15 actually said. Therefore, I see no relation between -- no difference
16 between the original version, the first document that I was trying to put
17 in order, what I wrote in my notebook, and the last version, what we see
18 on page 136.
19 Q. Let me take you to page 135 of your book. I'm now referring to
20 the copy of the original version, page 135. Do you see there halfway
21 through the page there is a subtitle "C. Doyle"? Those are words that you
22 obviously attribute to Colm Doyle.
23 Now, if you turn the page to page 136, you see the words --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- "genocide, bloodshed, and lifting of the blockade." So when
1 one reads these notes in a sequential order, don't these words "genocide,
2 bloodshed, and raising of the blockade -- lifting of the blockade" should
3 be read as if these are issues raised by Colm Doyle to General Strugar?
4 How is it that you, after 13 years, remember that these were, in fact,
5 words spoken by General Strugar?
6 A. These were words or rather subjects that were always discussed for
7 as long as the war operations lasted in the area. The problem of lifting
8 the blockade was a very frequent subject. That was discussed at meetings
9 with the European monitors and the observers around Dubrovnik. As
10 Mr. Colm Doyle was the chief of mission for Bosnia-Herzegovina, this was
11 an opportunity to discuss what was being discussed as a matter of course
12 at the time also within the 2nd Operational Group and in the public media.
13 Should there be war in Bosnia, I remember quite literally, they said there
14 will be blood up to our knees, and also the problem of genocide that was
15 very much in the forefront where the operational group was in
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. There are a lot of pits into which Serbian victims
17 had been thrown during World War II. And that's --
18 Q. Excuse me. May I just ask you one question: Notwithstanding how
19 it is recorded in your book, how did you remember after 13 years as to who
20 said what when, in fact, your notebook reflect as if these words have been
21 spoken by Colm Doyle? How did you after 13 years remember that they were
22 in fact spoken by General Strugar?
23 A. I don't remember. I have proof. Last night, I followed the logic
24 inherent in these things, and I told you about the odd pages, the pages
25 between 129 and 137, everything that was written down was what Mr. Doyle
1 said. As for the even pages, 134 and 136, those reflect what
2 General Strugar said, as well as pages 132 and 13 -- well, here I have
3 some comments that I wrote down at the time, comments of my own.
4 This is how I write. It's a matter of style. It's how I function
6 Q. Speaking of your writing style, Doctor, what you stated in the
7 course of re-examination today was that when you wrote, you generally
8 wrote -- took down notes of what was transpiring, if it was in a meeting,
9 on the odd-numbered pages, and you wrote down your personal views or
10 observations on the even-numbered pages. That's what you stated.
11 But according to this workbook, on page number 134 and 136, which
12 are even-numbered pages, you have taken down notes of the meeting, what
13 General Strugar said. So you're not being consistent with regard to your
14 so-called writing style, isn't it?
15 A. This is perfectly consistent. Under the circumstances, I believed
16 this was the most appropriate thing to do, to record General Strugar's
17 statements like this. Well, of course, now we have something else. We
18 may challenge memory itself, if I'm able to remember thee things after
19 such a long time. But when I was there at the meeting, this was my
20 approach to taking notes. And these notes are absolutely authentic.
21 Q. Further, your point about what Colm Doyle said were recorded on
22 odd-numbered pages while what General Strugar stated were recorded on
23 even-numbered pages is incorrect considering that on page 130, which is an
24 even-numbered page, there's an entry relating to Colm Doyle. Isn't that
25 the case?
1 A. There's a reference to Bihac, yes. But this is a personal note
2 that I made. I just wrote it down, just like that. Perhaps it had some
3 sort of meaning at the time, but now it would take a lot of time to
4 explain what the reference was to. I told you what the reference was
5 probably to.
6 Q. What is the difference -- now, you say on what you have written
7 down on page 130 is your personal observation, whereas if you take --
8 A. Sorry.
9 Q. If you -- could you please indicate as to what the difference is
10 between page 129 where you're allegedly writing down what Colm Doyle is
11 saying and where you state,"he is impressed with the sincerity and the
12 professionalism," as opposed to page 130 where you say you're writing down
13 your personal observation where it stated, "he mentions Bihac as well"?
14 So how do you distinguish between these two entries and determine
15 that one is your personal observation whereas the other is what the person
16 is stating? How after 13 years did you manage to come up with such a
18 A. Well, now you're going to something that only concerns my style of
19 writing. I don't think anyone's entitled to do that. There's no one who
20 is entitled to challenge how I function in terms of cognition. I'm
21 perfectly within my rights to function in this way in terms of cognition
22 and to keep this style of writing. All I can tell you right now is that
23 everything is entirely authentic.
24 Q. I did not intend to challenge your right at all, but my point is
25 how did you determine between these two lines? One says: "He's impressed
1 with the sincerity and the professionalism," and according to what you
2 stated here, this is something that is attributable to what Colm Doyle
3 said on the 6th, while on the next page, your statement that "he mentions
4 Bihac as well," you conclude to be your own observation and not what is
5 attributable to a statement made by Colm Doyle. What is the basis for you
6 to determine one is what one stated and the other is your personal
8 A. Bihac belongs to territory that was far from the command of the
9 operational group at the time. This is between four and five hundred
10 kilometres. Bihac is part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and there was no way
11 that Bihac could be part of anything that had any bearing on the area of
12 the 2nd Operational Group, the area covered by the 2nd Operational Group.
13 Bihac as such was far away from the territory covered by the
14 2nd Operational Group, and that was why I wrote Bihac. I must have
15 referred to Bihac because there was no need for any comments in relation
16 to Bihac to be part of this discussion.
17 At one point in time he might have said between these words new
18 task or wanting to meet the commanders. When he referred to Bihac, I
19 don't know. But this is my observation. And I must say again it deserves
20 no attention at all because Bihac was far away from the zone of interest
21 of the 2nd Operational Group as covering Bosnia and Herzegovina, part of
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina through the, I believe, 37th Corps.
23 Q. Did you maintain this as a diary, or did you just merely use this
24 as a notebook to include what information you should write down when, et
25 cetera, or did you use this as a diary?
1 A. This was a notebook for short-term interests and things that I
2 needed to write down. I had three other such notebooks. At that point in
3 time, this notebook was in my possession, and I wrote down, as I said,
4 these things in order to present the most important things that were being
5 said at this meeting in a brief report that was sent on a daily basis to
6 the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army.
7 However, the notebook in itself as I realised at one point in
8 time, I realised that there was some observations that were relevant to me
9 personally, something that I might decide to write something about. And
10 I've authored some materials concerning the Dubrovnik theatre of war
11 operations, and it should be staged in a theatre in Belgrade next year at
12 sometime hopefully.
13 Q. So if, in fact -- I think on the previous date also you mentioned
14 that you were going to use these books as a basis for a theatre production
15 or a play that you were writing. Now you mentioned that you possibly
16 write about the contents of these diaries. So what is the issue then
17 about the confidentiality of these -- of the contents included in these
18 books that you raised earlier on in relation to tendering this book as an
20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Selection. Selection. The answer
22 is simple, selection. I have the right to make a selection in terms of
23 what could possibly be used in the media.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
25 Q. You stated just now that you used these books as a basis to send
1 out reports to the General Staff. And also taking a look at the cover,
2 this book has indications of being an official book issued by the JNA.
3 How is it that you kept this in your personal custody after you left the
5 A. The official notebook that was officially verified as an official
6 notebook has a particular form. Now, what is the right word for this?
7 There is a kind of thread on it, and then finally it is sealed with a
8 stamp once one leaves. However, I had no need to possess such a notebook.
9 After any meeting, I could have torn a page out or whatever. I had no
10 official duties with regard to each and every page. Actually, in official
11 notebooks that were used in the JNA, only strictly confidential entries
12 are -- in the JNA, if strictly confidential entries are in a particular
13 notebook only, then all the pages are marked, and then there is that
14 thread and that seal that I spoke of. And each and every page has to be
15 there, and one cannot tear out a single page, whereas in the case of this
16 notebook I could tear out a page, I could write down people's names, I
17 could write down the names of people who were supposed to be evacuated,
18 things like that.
19 Q. You just went on to the next point I was going to ask you. Your
20 notebook continues from page 1 to 23.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon. If I may take a moment,
22 Your Honours.
23 Q. 1 to page 32. And then from 33 to 37, the pages have been torn
24 out. Is that -- are those the pages that you were planning to use -- or
25 the pages that -- those pages refer to the -- those particular excerpts
1 that you've tendered in evidence. Are there any other pages that you've
2 torn off in this book and I haven't had the time to examine?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In fact, my colleague indicates that pages 111
4 to 114 have also been torn off.
5 Q. Was there any particular reason why you tore off these particular
7 A. These pages that were torn off were torn off in 1991. Not a
8 single page was torn out later. It was torn out for some momentary needs,
9 when I needed a piece of paper. You see, a significant number of pages
10 there where no entries were made, and then some were skipped. So I point
11 this out once again: This is my cognitive functioning in organised chaos.
12 That is typical of me. On the other hand, if things are not fully
13 organised, then they are remembered better; there are traces in one's
15 Q. Doctor, also is it the case that very few pages bear dates that
16 relate to those entries? You have not as a practice dated your entries.
17 Was there any particular reason, or is there any particular reason as to
18 why the 5th December entry is dated and only a couple more are dated? If
19 in fact this book was being used by you as a basis for reports to the
20 General Staff, don't you think it would be appropriate that one would make
21 one's official notes having dated those entries? Isn't this an extremely
22 irregular way of keeping note of one's business activities?
23 A. It's not an irregular way because that day I knew quite clearly
24 what this pertained to and what was supposed to be part of the report. On
25 the other hand, I never thought that this note could be dealt with by a
1 court, that it could be evidence in a court of law. So it just so
2 happened I happened to have kept this, so this is a different matter
4 Q. How, then, without dating an entry, how then would you -- can one
5 expect you to determine as to what date a particular entry related to?
6 Did you just rely on your memory for such issues?
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can we clarify one
8 thing: It was my understanding that as for the content of the notebook,
9 that is to say, Dr. Svicevic's notebook, that there was cross-examination
10 about that and that cross-examination with regard to that matter has been
11 completed. Now, during the additional cross-examination, questions should
12 be put in relation to the technical aspects of this entire matter. My
13 learned friend is now putting questions about all the things that the head
14 of the Prosecution team omitted to ask on Friday. So I think that that is
15 the core of the matter.
16 Today, we are here to discuss the technical aspects of the
17 copying, and now my colleague is dealing with all these other matters at
18 great length, which is wrong. So could she please restrict herself to the
19 few pending issues. And I think that it is unfair to have my learned
20 friend Ms. Mahindaratne putting questions in relation to what my learned
21 friend Ms. Somers omitted to ask on Friday.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, today is the first day that the
23 Prosecution and the Chamber have seen the diary. Your objection was in
24 respect of a question asking about the absence of dates from the other
25 entries. That question could not have been asked until the diary was seen
2 So carry on, if you would, Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Dr. Svicevic, could you explain as to why all your entries
5 are -- have been written with pen, but only the entry relating to the 5th
6 December 1991 is written with a pencil?
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. Since this
8 question is being put, then one has to look through the diary very
9 carefully because there are other entries that were written with a pencil,
10 not only the entry relating to the 5th of December.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the first page was,
12 too. Please look at the first page. I think that's in pencil, too.
13 That's not the first page. It's the order. Have a look at it.
14 Isn't that in pencil, too? No, no.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
16 Q. As far as I can see --
17 A. May I have a look?
18 JUDGE PARKER: The witness ought to look at the diary to answer
19 your question.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
21 Q. Could you please indicate if you have any other entries written
22 with a pencil in your diary.
23 A. Probably not. But, for example, there are some entries in red
24 pen, for instance. What was written in a pencil -- well, at that moment,
25 I had an ordinary pencil at hand, and that's what I used. Quite simply.
1 And I absolutely stand by what I said, that it's an authentic diary that
2 was kept in 1991. And since then, not a single page has been torn out.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, at this stage, the Prosecution is
4 reserving its right to cross-examine the witness further once the book has
5 been further examined. That concludes cross-examination for the time
7 JUDGE PARKER: Let me make it clear. You have no right to further
8 cross-examine. Should you seek leave at some later time, you will need to
9 justify that.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour. May I rephrase.
11 JUDGE PARKER: So you close your further cross-examination.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
14 Mr. Rodic, is there further re-examination?
15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to ask
16 whether I could put a few questions. I'll be very brief in relation to
17 what my learned friend cross-examined about.
18 Could the witness please be given the original, D93, which was
19 marked for identification in that way.
20 Further re-examination by Mr. Rodic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Svicevic, we've taken up a lot of time with
22 this. Could you please take a look at the order, the strictly
23 confidential order that you drew the attention of the Trial Chamber to.
24 Please look at it and tell us what kind of pen or pencil was used to write
25 it down.
1 A. A pen. But this is page 7. However, on page 6, you can see that
2 again there is an untidy part. It's not very neat, like the entire diary.
3 There's the word "demilitarisation" that is used, so --
4 Q. Well, that's not what I'm saying now. If you please look at the
5 pages more carefully, were different pens and pencils used and different
6 colours of pen and pencil for making these entries?
7 A. Yes, it's obvious that already on page 11, there is a difference
8 between the pen I used when I wrote the order "the federal secretariat for
9 national defence" that is recorded as strictly confidential. And then
10 later on, it was just the pen I used. On page 21, I used another pen, and
11 then --
12 Q. There is no need to go any further. Thank you.
13 Tell me, please, you explained that there is also an official
14 notebook in the JNA. And you said that at the end it is stamped with a
15 seal and that there is a thread. I think the thread is called thread of
16 guarantee. Isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then when such an official notebook is sealed, there is no
19 possibility of tearing pages out. Isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is the purpose for which it is used?
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Counsel is leading the witness, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE PARKER: He is slightly. But if you'd just watch it,
24 please, Mr. Rodic.
25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
1 Q. What is the reason when dealing with such an official notebook
2 that was sealed, what is the reason why pages cannot be torn out?
3 A. This kind of notebook is received from a security officer, and
4 that notebook is taken when something should be written in it. When I
5 take that notebook, then it is my duty to hand it back to the person who
6 had issued the notebook to me.
7 Q. Tell me, is there a difference between such an official notebook
8 and this working notebook that you have in your hands now?
9 A. Not in form. There is only the question of essence, that it has
10 this thread and this seal in wax.
11 Q. Would your attitude towards both notebooks be the same or
13 A. It would be absolutely different because one has the duty to keep
14 it -- keep that notebook very regular -- very neatly and according to
15 certain regulations. There are regulations governing the use of such a
17 Q. Tell me, this original notebook, inter alia, did you make any
18 entries in that notebook that were important in your opinion from the
19 meetings that were held with the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik and the
20 representatives of the international community?
21 A. No, I didn't have such a notebook, and I wrote down everything in
22 this notebook.
23 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand what I was saying. In that working
24 notebook, the one that you're holding in your hands right now, are there
25 any entries there that pertain to your communication with the Crisis Staff
1 of Dubrovnik and the European Community monitors in relation to the
2 meetings you had with them?
3 A. Yes, I've just found some pages now, 47, Di Mistura, then Djuro,
4 then Djuro, that is Djuro Kolic, then page 51, pages 56, 57. They are
5 much less tidy than this.
6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I have concluded the
7 additional examination I had. And the Defence would like to tender this
8 notebook into evidence as a Defence exhibit, and all the documents that
9 pertain to the notebook; that is to say, the original and the copies, and
10 could they please be assigned a number.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.
12 MS. SOMERS: The objection, Your Honour, continues. And the
13 Prosecution would ask that it simply retain its status as marked for
14 identification. We may seek -- we'd like to seek to have it examined
15 actually as a document perhaps by a questioned documents examiner. And
16 that would -- upon the -- we would ask for a period of time in which to be
17 allowed to do so, having not had --
18 JUDGE PARKER: Why should it not be received in the meantime?
19 MS. SOMERS: I think that actually it is -- it may not be what it
20 purports to be, that the Chamber would be burdened with having to go for
21 weight, when in fact, it may not even be properly admissible depending on
22 what it is.
23 JUDGE PARKER: If it should eventuate that that later matter is
24 demonstrated, there would be little burden for the Chamber. I think the
25 proper course is to accede to Mr. Rodic's submission and receive the
1 documents. And I take it you would also like to tender the documents that
2 you have put to the witness.
3 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber accepts into evidence over our
4 objection, then yes, of course, and we would make any appropriate motions
5 later. Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: The documents that have been marked for
7 identification in the course of the evidence of the witness will now each
8 be received as exhibits with the same exhibit number.
9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: While the Court officer is coping with that task,
11 which will take a moment -- are you ready?
12 THE REGISTRAR: The respective exhibits are D92, D93, and D94.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Before you leave us, Doctor, could you just help
14 the Chamber with one or two matters.
15 I'm told that you omitted the P exhibit.
16 THE REGISTRAR: And P218.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE PARKER: Am I right in understanding, Doctor, that you say
20 that the notes that you made commenced -- on the 6th of December,
21 commenced at page 129 of the notebook?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE PARKER: As I understand it, they continued on page 131 as
24 the next page you used?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE PARKER: And then page 133?
2 A. I'm sorry, I don't have the document in front of me now.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Quickly, could the witness see the notebook. Thank
5 A. Yes, I'm able to follow now, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: I've gone from 129 to 131 to 133. All the
7 odd-numbered pages.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE PARKER: And are they each notes that you've made of what is
10 being said by Mr. Doyle, Colm Doyle?
11 A. Yes, but I would add that the same applies to 135 and 137.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I was just going on to confirm that. Thank you.
13 So they're all to deal with Mr. Doyle.
14 The even-numbered pages --
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE PARKER: -- 130, as I understand you, they're just something
17 you added at some time in the meeting, the note about Bihac.
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to say who mentioned that place,
21 A. This is within the sphere of my memory and recollection, but I
22 assume this was a reference made by Mr. Colm Doyle. That's why I -- well,
23 the reference to Bihac, it deserved no further attention, nothing for me
24 to write down, nothing further, because it wasn't within the sphere of
25 interest of the command of the 2nd Operational Group.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Why is it on an even-numbered page and not an
2 odd-numbered page if you recall it is said by Mr. Doyle?
3 A. No, this is merely a remark. He makes reference to Bihac. I
4 didn't quote what he said, whereas all the odd-numbered pages mostly
5 reflect his words as sentences. This is a remark that I made, something
6 that cropped up during the conversation with General Strugar.
7 JUDGE PARKER: I see.
8 On page 131, partway down the page, there's a heading "C. Doyle."
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Why did you put that heading?
11 A. Because this was a semi-formal discussion about the situation in
12 Bihac. After a certain pause, the conversation was continued with words
13 that I believed were noteworthy and deserved to be recorded.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Isn't everything on 131 something that is being
15 said by Mr. Doyle?
16 A. Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. But as I've just tried to
17 explain, at one point in time, the conversation had been informal and had
18 lasted for three, four, five or more minutes. It wasn't at all
19 interesting in terms of being recorded. So after such an informal
20 exchange, I continued by saying that Mr. Doyle had taken the floor again.
21 Therefore, after an unofficial exchange, or I assume that that was the
22 reason, knowing my style of writing, this was after an informal discussion
23 that lasted for about five or six minutes, and then Colm Doyle proceeded
24 to say something that I believed was worthy of being recorded.
25 JUDGE PARKER: I see. So there was a passage perhaps five or six
1 minutes' discussion that you didn't note, and then to show that you were
2 starting a new subject matter, you put Doyle's name again? Right.
3 A. That's right, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Now, if that was a conversation, were there other
5 people speaking as well as Mr. Doyle?
6 A. No. This was a conversation of people who held high positions.
7 Myself and the gentleman from the Sarajevo military district was also
8 acting as an interpreter. According to the rules, there were commanders
9 speaking, after all, in this case Commander Strugar and Mr. Doyle who was
10 the representative of the European Community for Bosnia-Herzegovina. It
11 was account on our respective ranks and positions that it was not seen as
12 appropriate for us to join in this conversation. We were there in a more
13 technical capacity, and we were there to technically prepare the meeting.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. What would -- was said by
15 General Strugar during the passages that you've got noted on 129 and 131?
16 Where do we find what General Strugar said during that time?
17 A. On page 134 and page 136. Because in the report that was to be
18 drafted, it was much more essential and important to say what the other
19 side had pointed out, and not in as much detail what General Strugar had
20 said, although, that, too was considered important and that, too, was
21 recorded accordingly.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Is it that you skipped some pages and started
23 making notes of General Strugar at 134 as he was speaking, or was it that
24 you simply made some notes later about what General Strugar had said
1 A. No, Your Honour. I assert with absolute certainty that I did
2 nothing later. This was all recorded in realtime, everything that was
3 written down from page 129 to page 137 was recorded in realtime during the
4 actual meeting. There were no later additions to this portion of the
5 notebook or any other. Perhaps when I drafted the report that was then
6 sent to the General Staff, I may have remembered a thing or two, something
7 that had not been recorded at the time. And following consultations with
8 General Strugar our assessment was that maybe those things ought to have
9 been recorded in the report that we then sent to the General Staff.
10 JUDGE PARKER: I wonder why then you didn't note on page 128 or
11 page 130 what General Strugar was saying in response to the things that
12 you noted as Mr. Doyle said them, the ones you noted on 129 and 131.
13 A. Well, you see, in the meantime, I've made one, two, three, four
14 pages, and in order to avoid going back I always kept this page blank.
15 And I marked clearly that these were General Strugar's words. From page
16 134 on, he said one or two words, and I recorded those. I don't see that
17 there's a problem there really. This is how it happened. It was the
18 order in which things happened. So I wrote this down on page 134 in order
19 to avoid going back.
20 JUDGE PARKER: When General Strugar spoke, you made a heading
21 identifying his name, did you, and then noted what he said?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE PARKER: On 132, can you tell us who said that?
24 A. This was certainly in reference to Mr. Doyle. This was a
25 digression on his part in reference to previous meeting that he had had
1 with the president of Mostar Municipality. And that was the reason why
2 this additional remark was recorded, and there's no heading as to who had
3 said it. But I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty that
4 this was in reference to Mr. Doyle and his digression to do with the
5 Mostar area.
6 JUDGE PARKER: So 132 is again a note of Mr. Doyle, but you saw it
7 to be a digression. So you've noted it on 132.
8 A. Yes. And the same applies to page 130 where Bihac is referenced.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Now, you've told us we go from 129 to 131, 133.
10 There's no note of who said that. That's still Mr. Doyle, is it, as an
11 odd-numbered page?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE PARKER: And the next lot of Mr. Doyle is 135. Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE PARKER: There's another heading of C. Doyle on 135.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Why did you put that heading?
19 A. Well, this is identical to the previous interpretation that was
20 offered, the two, three, or five-minute one. I can't remember as much,
21 but it was certainly an unofficial conversation that merited no particular
22 notice, nothing to be written down. Therefore, after this informal
23 conversation, Colm Doyle continued to speak.
24 JUDGE PARKER: I see. So there was another passage that you saw
25 no point of noting, and then when you felt it had got back to a matter of
1 relevance to the meeting, you noted Mr. Doyle's name again and carried on.
2 Is that what you say?
3 A. Precisely, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The passages you've got noted on 134 and 136, you
5 say they're all General Strugar?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Were they all said at the one time or at different
8 times during the meeting?
9 A. Well, on page 134, one thing you can see following the second
10 passage, there's a mark or a sign. There was a brief pause after which
11 General Strugar was there again. Certainly this was General Strugar's
12 contribution. And at one point probably Colm Doyle had a comment, an
13 additional comment to make which I didn't record. And after an unofficial
14 discussion, briefly General Strugar proceeds. And that's what the mark
15 stands for between the second and third passages. I do notice now however
16 also that there's the same mark between the third and fourth passages.
17 You know, natural conversation always tends to contain some spontaneous
18 remarks being made, unofficial comments being made on the side,
19 spontaneous things, things that do not get written down.
20 JUDGE PARKER: So really, those marks in between the passages on
21 134 and 136 are when there was some unofficial conversation between
22 General Strugar and Mr. Doyle?
23 A. Yes. Well, it was additional remarks being made. At least I did
24 not believe that it deserved any attention whatsoever. This is the
25 usually kind of thing you get in every conversation, there are certain
1 digressions, longer ones, shorter ones, and these digressions do not
2 necessarily have to do with the subject of the conversation itself.
3 People are paying compliments to one another, making personal
4 observations, that sort of thing.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 Dr. Svicevic, may we thank you once again to the assistance you've
7 given us, and especially for your willingness to stay over the weekend and
8 clear up these further matters and for getting over the original of the
9 notebook. It has helped the Tribunal a great deal, and we would thank
11 I'm pleased to tell you that you're now free to go and go back to
12 your home and carry on with what you wish to do. Thank you very much.
13 We will have the afternoon break now.
14 --- Recess taken at 4.03 p.m.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It concerned the Chamber that more time was lost
18 over that break than needs to have been. We must be careful with our
19 times throughout the weeks that remain, if all could keep that in mind.
20 Now, you have a further witness?
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes --
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, it's Monday afternoon. That must be
23 an excuse for something.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I accept that
25 kind of excuse. Of course, the Defence would now like to call
1 Mr. Vlado Sikimic as its next witness.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. If you would be kind enough to stand
3 and read aloud the affirmation, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Sit down, please.
7 Yes, Mr. Petrovic.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 WITNESS: VLADO SIKIMIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. Could you please give us your full name.
15 A. My name is Vlado Sikimic.
16 Q. Mr. Sikimic, tell us your profession, please.
17 A. I'm a professional military man in Serbia and Montenegro, that is,
18 the state.
19 Q. [No interpretation]
20 A. I have been working in the army since the 14th of November 1980.
21 Q. And what education have you had, Mr. Sikimic?
22 A. I graduated from secondary school and the technical military
23 academy in Zagreb in 1980.
24 Q. What units did you serve in during your military career,
25 Mr. Sikimic?
1 A. I am still an active-duty officer of the Army of Serbia and
2 Montenegro since 1980, right up until the present day. I have been
3 working in the logistics units, in the rear. And -- as these were the
4 units that I was trained to work in.
5 Q. Thank you. Where were you in November 1991? Where were you
7 A. In November 1991, I was in the 69th Rocket Base of Herceg Novi at
9 Q. Could you tell us, please, what unit you were in, or rather what
10 unit did the 69th Rocket Base belong to?
11 A. The 69th Base was a component part of the units of the
12 9th Military Naval Sector.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Might the usher show the witness
14 Document D46, please.
15 Would you place it on the ELMO, please, so that we can all see it
16 on our screens.
17 Q. Mr. Sikimic, on this diagram which represents the diagram of the
18 makeup of the 9th VPS, do you see your own unit there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If you do, would you please point with your pointer on the
21 overhead projector, please.
22 A. It was this one, the 69th Technical Rocket Base.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] We won't need the document any
25 more. May the record show that the witness pointed to the 69th Naval
1 Technical Rocket Base.
2 Q. You told us a moment ago that in November 1991, you were at your
3 duties in the units of the 69th Rocket Base. Tell us, now, please whether
4 at any point in time you were transferred to a new duty.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When were you sent to take up a new duty?
7 A. Several days before the 15th of November, I received a telegram
8 from the command of the 9th Sector telling me to report on the 15th of
9 November 1991 to the forward command post of the 9th Military Naval Sector
10 in Kupari.
11 Q. When did you arrive at the forward command post of the 9th VPS in
13 A. On the 15th of November, sometime before noon.
14 Q. Tell us, please, who did you report to when you reached the
15 forward command post of the 9th VPS?
16 A. I reported to Colonel Trbojevic.
17 Q. Tell us, please, who Colonel Trbojevic was.
18 A. Colonel Trbojevic was the assistant commander for logistics of the
19 9th Military Naval Sector at the forward command post at Kupari.
20 Q. For the record, please, is it Colonel Trbojevic or Trbovic? What
21 is the colonel's name? Because it's not clear enough in the LiveNote. So
22 what was the man's name?
23 A. Colonel Trbovic, as far as I remember.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. You're welcome.
1 Q. Tell us, please, what were your assignments and duties at the
2 forward command post of the 9th VPS once you arrived on the 15th of
3 November 1991?
4 A. My duties and assignments were the following: Since
5 Colonel Trbovic was the assistant commander for logistics or for the rear,
6 I arrived there as his deputy geared towards logistics and providing
7 logistical support.
8 Q. And what does logistical support imply briefly?
9 A. Well, it's a broad concept, but I can tell you the basics of it.
10 And that is supplies of all equipment, all supplies for units under our
11 area of responsibilities. Then maintenance of all materiel for those same
12 units in our area of responsibility. And third, an important goal, and
13 that is to help out, to act as reinforcement and help the units out in
14 their organisation of logistics and quartermaster services and so on and
15 so forth.
16 Q. Tell us, please, where was your office, your actual duty post as
17 of the 15th of November 1991?
18 A. At the forward command post in Kupari, in the building where
19 everybody was accommodated, I had my own office there, a room. An office,
21 Q. Do you happen to remember how long you were doing your duties at
22 the forward command post of the 9th VPS? Up until when, the month and the
24 A. The 29th of May 1992 with the proviso that the forward command
25 post was not in Kupari throughout that time.
1 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, how did you procure supplies for your
2 unit -- no, I withdraw that question. Let me put it this way: Which
3 units were supplied and how were you involved in supplying those supplies?
4 A. I can't remember all the units. For example, the 3rd Battalion
5 belonging to Zdravkovic, Kovacevic's 3rd Battalion, and some smaller units
6 who were in that area of responsibility of ours.
7 Q. How did those units obtain their supplies? Where did the supplies
8 and materiel and equipment reach those units, the necessary resources they
10 A. Overall supplies and of course maintenance and generally speaking
11 supplies in the broadest term functioned according to the logistics system
12 via the 9th Military Naval Sector or the logistics base of the 9th VPS
13 from Kumbor.
14 Q. Mr. Sikimic, at the forward command post of the 9th VPS, did you
15 have any other duties and assignments apart from this logistical work you
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And which duties were those?
19 A. Like all the other people who were in the narrow circle of the
20 forward command post, I was included in the system of shifts of the
21 forward command post of the 9th VPS.
22 Q. Mr. Sikimic, tell us, please, what do you mean by operational
23 centre at the forward command post of the 9th VPS? You mentioned the
24 operational centre of the forward command post a moment ago.
25 A. The operational centre is a system of control and command over all
1 those units which were in our area of responsibility. In other words,
2 that means that it was from that operational centre that we would send
3 orders to all units and other things like that as well as receiving all
4 reports coming in from the units themselves. So it was a feedback
5 mechanism to and from the units and the operational centre in the area of
7 Q. A moment ago, for purposes of the record, you said that in
8 addition to logistics and logistical support, you were involved in other
9 duties, shiftwork, duty officer, and so on. Could you repeat for the
10 record, where did you have the duty to work as a duty officer? In what
11 organ of the command did you do the work of a duty officer, were you on
13 A. I was on duty in the operational centre.
14 Q. Thank you. You explained a moment ago what is meant by the
15 operational centre, what that implies. Now, tell us, please, for all of
16 us to be able to understand, from the operational centre, the forward
17 command post of the 9th VPS, who were you in communication with?
18 A. I already said that communication was maintained with all the
19 units in our area of responsibility, every single unit in the area of
20 responsibility that we were in charge of.
21 Q. And what about the resources? What were the resources of the
22 operational centre?
23 A. Communications, and of course topographical maps, rules and
24 regulations, instructions, guidelines, other training material and the
1 Q. And what about communications? What means of communication was
2 there at the forward command post of the 9th VPS?
3 Could we just make pauses between question and answer for the
4 LiveNote, please.
5 So tell us again what means of communication was at the forward
6 command post of the 9th VPS in the operational centre?
7 A. There were radio relay communications, radio telephone
8 communications, and wire communications and lines.
9 Q. Are these army communications, the kind found in the army?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Within the frameworks of the forward command post of the 9th VPS,
12 was there any other communications network apart from what the operational
13 centre itself had?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Mr. Sikimic, tell us, please, what is meant by a wartime diary or
16 war logbook or notebook?
17 A. A war notebook or logbook is a document that is kept, a record
18 kept in all similar situations and in other situations, and it is
19 especially important at times of war. It is a document recording -- do
20 you want me to go on to explain?
21 Q. Well, tell us, what are the entries that are recorded in a war
22 notebook like the one that the 9th VPS had at its forward command post?
23 What entries would be recorded?
24 A. A war --
25 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. There's no evidence that the
1 9th VPS actually kept one.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I withdraw that question,
3 Your Honour. I'll get to that in due course.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. At the forward command post of the 9th VPS, was a war logbook kept
7 in the operational centre?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Tell us, please, what is entered into a war logbook of that kind,
10 and what was entered into the logbook of the forward command post of the
11 9th VPS?
12 MS. SOMERS: Again, objection. It's not clear who kept it and
13 basically the procedure by which it was kept.
14 JUDGE PARKER: I think you better pin those things down if you
15 could, please, Mr. Petrovic.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course. I have had
17 all of that in mind. I am going to ask about all of that. But I am going
18 to accommodate my colleague, and I'll take the order that she considers
20 Q. So your answer was that a war logbook was kept at the operations
21 centre of the 9th VPS, at the forward command post. Is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where was the war logbook of the forward command post of the
24 9th VPS?
25 A. The war logbook was in the operations centre in the room next to
1 the communications equipment.
2 Q. Who kept it, or rather, who made entries into the war logbook?
3 A. Entries in the war logbook were made by the duty officer at the
4 operations centre. Duty officers were established according to a preset
5 schedule, so every duty officer made entries that were relevant for the
6 war logbook.
7 Q. Tell me, now, what are all the things that are written down in the
8 war logbook of the 9th VPS at the forward command post?
9 A. All orders, directives, guidelines issued to all units in our zone
10 of responsibility are entered into the logbook. What is also entered into
11 the logbook is everything that is contained in the reports from units
12 within the area of responsibility, to put it in the briefest possible
14 Q. What information becomes part of the war logbook?
15 A. I did not understand your question. That is precisely what I
16 answered a minute ago.
17 Q. Mr. Sikimic, since you told us a few minutes ago that you also
18 acted as duty officer at the operations centre at the forward command post
19 of the 9th VPS, did you make entries in the war logbook of the operations
20 centre of the 9th VPS at the forward command post?
21 A. Yes. When I was on duty, I, among others, also made entries
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the following
24 document distributed.
25 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I'd like to register an objection. This
1 document, if it purports to be a 9th VPS document, should have been put to
2 Admiral Jokic when he testified, to put the whole case to him. I think
3 it's a 90(H) violation, and we would object to its use given that it was
4 clear from some of the questioning at the time of cross-examination that
5 information from this document was, in fact, asked or used. And this
6 allegedly concerns the 9th VPS; it was not put to the person who had the
7 longest time on the stand about the 9th VPS. And we think it is
8 inappropriate to raise it at this point.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I answer, or would
10 you first like to have a look at the document yourself?
11 JUDGE PARKER: I'd be happy if you would put your submission,
12 Mr. Petrovic. Thank you.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first and foremost, as
14 for the document before you, the Defence submitted that in accordance with
15 65 ter (G) as this is a document that we intend to use during our case.
16 The document is one that the Defence believes should be tendered into
17 evidence. The foundation according to which the Defence would like to
18 have it admitted into evidence is the same foundation as any other in
19 these proceedings and all other proceedings before this International
21 The foundation for admitting this document into evidence is
22 Rule 89, 89(C) to be precise. The Trial Chamber will see already at first
23 glance that this is a document that is highly relevant for this case, and
24 it is a document that is of significant prima facie value. Our request
25 with regard to this document is based on the rules that were set by this
1 Trial Chamber as well in terms of admissibility of evidence. That is
2 actually the jurisprudence that consists of decisions made by
3 Trial Chambers, primarily the Prosecution versus Delalic decision that was
4 passed by the Trial Chamber on the 19th of January 1998, and it was
5 updated several times through decisions made by other Trial Chambers like
6 the one made on the 15th of February 2002 in the case Prosecutor versus
7 Brdjanin/Talic where the appropriate principles were laid.
8 The fact that the Defence did not have this document when
9 Admiral Jokic testified is simply irrelevant. International jurisprudence
10 and the jurisprudence of this International Tribunal does not make this a
11 prerequisite; namely, whether this document was shown to any other witness
12 in previous proceedings during a particular trial. Every one of the
13 parties can show any one of its witnesses any document in accordance with
14 Rule 85(A)(iii) or 83(A)(iv). That is one thing I wish to point out.
15 Secondly, it is not the duty of the Defence to adjust its strategy
16 and evidence to the Prosecution aims. The fact that a certain document
17 was not available at a given point in time is irrelevant. My learned
18 friend invokes Rule 90(H). Rule 90(H) - I assume, but I don't really see
19 what part of Rule 90(H) my learn friend is invoking - is not relevant at
20 all to the situation that we have at hand now. It is the extent of
21 cross-examination that is dealt with there, and also perhaps the
22 cross-examination, namely, that the witness has to be acquainted with the
23 very nature of the evidence involved, but only if this goes beyond the
24 examination-in-chief. There is nothing even similar to that, namely, that
25 the Defence has to present all its documents that it will ultimately
1 tender during its own case to all Prosecution witnesses who appear before
2 the Trial Chamber. This was never the case before this Tribunal.
3 So we believe that this objection is quite unfounded, especially
4 because you will see for yourselves, Your Honour, that this is a document
5 that goes to the very core of the case against General Strugar.
6 Your Honours, the document that is before you is the key document, basic
7 document for any kind of judgement, conclusions, or ultimately decisions
8 in this case. This document comes from military archives. This is a
9 document that was created at the time that we are discussing, and many
10 different things are noted in the document itself.
11 I would also like to remind my learned friend that even the
12 witness that she invoked also on the 26th of March this year, in this
13 courtroom, on page 4.053 said that he had studied this document in great
14 detail. If he had this document, why he did not submit it to the
15 Prosecution within the comprehensive cooperation he had with the Office of
16 the Prosecutor is something that others should consider.
17 However, at any rate, I believe that the objection is quite
18 unfounded and that the document that you have in your hands, Your Honour,
19 is a document that is going to be of crucial assistance to this
20 Trial Chamber in order to rule on matters that my client, Mr. Strugar, has
21 been charged with.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Did I understand you to say, Mr. Petrovic, that you
23 did not have this document during your cross-examination of Admiral Jokic?
24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you will certainly
25 recall the situation at the time. As my colleague Mr. Rodic said, and he
1 was the one who cross-examined Admiral Jokic, had insight into this
2 document. And on the basis of this insight, numerous information was used
3 and numerous questions were put to Admiral Jokic with regard to this
4 particular matter. You will certainly recall an entire set of questions,
5 if my memory does not fail me, either on the 14th, on the 16th, or 19th of
6 April that have to do with the content of this document. We did not have
7 the document itself; we were aware of its content, though, and we put
8 questions on the basis of what our information was at that time. That
9 would be the answer to your question, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Why did you not have it?
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a special
12 procedure involved that has to be observed with military archives, and
13 generally speaking in terms of the obligation of the state with
14 cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal and all participants
15 in proceedings before the International Criminal Tribunal. Quite simply,
16 that procedure had not been completed by that time. We were given insight
17 into the documents. Of course, we did have a look, and we wrote down
18 whatever we could at that point in time. Physically, the document was not
19 in our hands. So quite simply, that is the situation with regard to this
21 May I mention once again in passing that Admiral Jokic himself
22 admitted that he was very well aware of the content of that document as he
23 did say himself on page 4.053 of the transcript, as I've already
25 JUDGE PARKER: When did you ask or seek to have access to the
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in time,
3 I cannot give you the exact dates. Quite a while ago, that is to say,
4 even before the trial commenced we asked for access to the documents. And
5 that has two stages. One is insight. Then comes copying. That is a
6 rather lengthy process. But I cannot give you the exact dates. However,
7 if the Trial Chamber really believes that this is significant, I will
8 eventually be able to give you a more precise answer.
9 JUDGE PARKER: I would have thought from the way you have put your
10 submissions and what we know of the case already that this document would
11 have been one of the first things you wanted to examine in the preparation
12 of your defence. Is that not so?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is the way it was
14 supposed to be somehow. It was a major problem to locate the document
15 itself. However, once the document was located, the procedure was
16 initiated. First, of access to the document; and then the procedure
17 involving the photocopying of the document. You are quite right in view
18 of the nature of the document that this is a key document for the case
19 that we are all dealing with.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Are you saying that you did not request to have a
21 copy of this document before the trial commenced?
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we asked for an entire
23 series of documents, hundreds of documents, including this particular
24 document. However, until the present day, we have not received a
25 significant number of these documents. We received a significant number
1 of these documents only recently. That is why we are in this situation
2 that we have regrettably been in a position to give our learned friends
3 these documents rather late. For example, the documents that were handed
4 in this morning were received officially only last week. So quite simply,
5 the situation related to documents is as it is. Unfortunately, there are
6 some important documents that we are still looking for, very important
7 ones, perhaps even more important than the one that is before you now,
8 Your Honour. But there are various objective and subjective difficulties
9 that have affected this process which regrettably is sometimes too slow
10 when we think of what is in our best interest.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Now, the thrust of the objection made by
12 Ms. Somers, as I understood her, was Rule 90(H). That is, that you did
13 not put the material parts of this document to relevant Prosecution
14 witnesses, particularly Admiral Jokic. What have you to say of that?
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I will say to
16 that is that it is quite simply incorrect. The essence of what the
17 content of this document is is how events evolved on the 5th, 6th, and 7th
18 of December 1991. The Defence challenged what Admiral Jokic said very
19 extensively. And they put it to Admiral Jokic, namely, that his
20 interpretation of what happened is simply not correct. In this
21 way -- what happened on the 6th of December, that is. That is why we
22 presented the nature of our case to Admiral Jokic during our
23 cross-examination in accordance with the Rules.
24 In addition to that, an entire series of concrete questions, and
25 you will certainly recall that, Your Honours, had to do with entries in
1 this war logbook quite specifically. So Admiral Jokic did have the
2 absolute core of the matter put to him; namely, that his interpretation of
3 what happened on the 6th of December, 1991 is profoundly incorrect. That
4 was done throughout the cross-examination. I'm saying that in very
5 general terms. And also in terms of concrete segments of his assertions
6 in terms of who called him, when, where he was, where they were, and all
7 of that can be seen quite nicely from the war logbook. We challenged
8 those sections of his testimony by putting an entire set of questions that
9 had to do precisely with that.
10 JUDGE PARKER: You say that the material parts of the logbook
11 which contradicted the evidence of the Admiral were put to him in the
12 course of his evidence?
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] To a considerable extent, yes,
14 Your Honour. I cannot say fully because you recall all the circumstances
15 that were involved. However, his interpretation of events and in addition
16 to that, his description of individual events were challenged, of course.
17 And this was put to Admiral Jokic. His answer to most of this was that
18 this was impossible and incorrect, for the most part.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
20 Now, Ms. Somers --
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If I may just be allowed to add a
22 few words, Your Honours, during the examination-in-chief of Admiral Jokic,
23 I mentioned something on a number of different occasions. He referred to
24 what the substance of the war logbook was, and he told us about how he
25 read the war logbook and how he finished reading it. I referred to a
1 particular page, but I believe I would have been able to locate other such
2 examples of specific pages, but I did not believe that this could have
3 been important. However, if the Trial Chamber believes this to be
4 essential, this should be easy to ascertain.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 Ms. Somers, I didn't allow you to interrupt the submission earlier
7 because it was a submission, and you can now have your proper turn.
8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I think Defence counsel has
9 simply missed the point of 90(H). The fact that something was raised
10 without presenting the document which will be gone into presumably in
11 great detail is not compliance with 90(H). The actual points of
12 contradiction need to be brought up specifically, one can't just have
13 something hovering over the witness testimony and suggesting that that has
14 covered the issue. It must be delved into thoroughly in cross-examination
15 or it is not acceptable.
16 If I can recall from memory, and I may need to actually go back
17 and check, the Chamber inquired of Defence counsel when a certain question
18 was asked about a protest, whether or not a protest was made to the other
19 side. And clearly, these are matters that Defence counsel said, yes, this
20 is part of the case. This is coming from a document that no real
21 cross-examination was carried out on with the leading witness on the
22 9th VPS.
23 It is a matter of, effectively, foul play. It is clear that the
24 Defence had the information. There's not one request to the Chamber to
25 say, let us come back to this when we get the document. In fact, there
1 was no mention of whether or not it was even in their possession. But it
2 is not a matter that can be taken lightly. The admiral is
3 disadvantaged -- of course, the Prosecution is disadvantaged. But the
4 admiral will have a number of points that he will be attacked and he was
5 never given the opportunity to face or challenge the actual document.
6 Memory alone is simply far too abstract when you're going to get into the
7 kind of detail that appears to be the crux of the cross-examination. It
8 is an essential aspect of 90(H). I would like see the case that is
9 referred to by counsel. But at this point, I think there is no basis.
10 Further, this Chamber, when General Zorc was on the stand, had the same
11 issue raised, where there was a document that could have been put to
12 Admiral Jokic that was not, and the Chamber excluded it, because it was a
13 violation of 90(H). It was not, and it should have been put to him.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, the logic
15 followed by my learned friend and colleague would imply the following,
16 Your Honours: It would mean that we must do a radical rethinking as to
17 what the obligations of the parties in these proceedings are. If what my
18 learned friend suggests were the case, that would mean that everything
19 that the Defence intends to refer to throughout its case should be made
20 available to the OTP prior to the commencement of their case. Or rather,
21 that everything that we intend to show to any of our witnesses, everything
22 that goes to the very substance of our case should be handed over to
23 Prosecution witnesses, too. This simply makes no sense.
24 Your Honours, we shall hand over to this Trial Chamber a whole
25 series of documents belonging to the 9th Military Naval Sector. It is the
1 crux of what we do, of our case. But how can that mean, Your Honours,
2 that we have to show every single document we have to Admiral Jokic? Why
3 on earth would we have to do that? If there is a problem about that, my
4 learned friend is free to put Admiral Jokic on the stand again. And he
5 will be free to address all the issues that the Defence case is about.
6 That is precisely what evidence in rebuttal is about. And then
7 Admiral Jokic will be given a chance to speak and address these issues.
8 But we have dozens of documents that we have obtained in relation to the
9 9th VPS.
10 I must say I'm surprised when I see that my learned friend and
11 colleague expects us to hand over and submit everything that we had within
12 our case at the time when Admiral Jokic took the stand. This is simply
13 something that is not within the rules, and it's not within the practice.
14 This is an impossible situation. It is for that very reason that the
15 Rules envisage the possibility to put a witness on the stand for a second
16 time to be faced with the Defence case so that he may have a chance to
17 give his own version of events as they unfolded on the 6th of December
19 JUDGE PARKER: Not for a second time, Mr. Petrovic. The
20 obligation of Rule 90(H) in its second paragraph is for the Defence when
21 cross-examining a witness to put the nature of your case to that witness
22 where your case is in contradiction to the evidence given by the witness.
23 Now, that doesn't necessarily require that every document you
24 intend to put in evidence is put to the witness. But you must at least to
25 have put to that witness the nature of your case so that he has an
1 opportunity to answer that. Now, I think that the position that you take
2 and the position that Ms. Somers take are each wide of the mark but in
3 opposite directions. You have an obligation to have put the nature of
4 your case where you felt the evidence of Admiral Jokic was in
5 contradiction of it, and there is a question whether that has been
6 adequately done. But you don't have an obligation to put every document,
7 certainly every original document that may in some way have some relevance
8 to the issues to the Admiral.
9 The problem for the Trial Chamber at the moment is that we don't
10 yet know what precisely is the nature of your case about these matters.
11 And therefore, we're not in a position to know whether you have adequately
12 complied with Rule 90(H) or not. It's only when we learn what it is that
13 you want from these documents that we can start to form a judgement
14 whether what you did put to him in cross-examination was a sufficient
15 compliance with the Rule. If you have not, the only remedy, which is an
16 unwarranted use of time and of inconvenience, would be to allow the
17 Prosecution to recall Admiral Jokic and to go through these matters. But
18 that is not something that should happen as of course. It should only
19 happen where something surprising and unexpected has emerged. But where
20 you knew the nature of the material that you were intending to rely on,
21 even if you hadn't by then with due diligence been able to obtain it, you
22 still had to put, from your knowledge of the documents, what it was that
23 was in contradiction of the evidence of the witness.
24 What I propose as I think the only practical course forward is to
25 allow you to deal with this witness to identify these documents and to
1 identify in his evidence what parts it is that you see to be relevant and
2 material. Ms. Somers, at the end of, that may wish to renew her objection
3 to the reception of these documents into evidence, or she may by then be
4 satisfied that what you want from them was sufficiently canvassed during
5 cross-examination. I don't yet know. We will just have to judge that in
6 due course.
7 So in response to the objection, we won't receive this document
8 yet, if ever, as evidence, but we will allow you to proceed in respect of
9 it and so that we can form a judgement in due course as to whether or not
10 there has been an adequate compliance with Rule 90(H). So if you could
11 proceed, then, Mr. Petrovic.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Can you please have a look, Mr. Sikimic, at this document, the
14 document that you have before you. Can you tell us what sort of a
15 document that is.
16 A. This is a war logbook that was kept in the operational centre of
17 the 9th VPS at the forward command post in Kupari.
18 Q. Can you please look at the handwritten page, 67, which is part of
19 this document, the upper right corner of the page.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Looking at this page, do you see any entries that you made
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Can you please tell us which specific entries you made, at what
25 time were your entries made on this page?
1 A. I made the entry at 0500 and 0530 hours.
2 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. Can we clarify how this
3 witness knows these are his entries. That has not been established.
4 JUDGE PARKER: He has just sworn that he made them. But you might
5 like to explore on what basis he's able to recall that, Mr. Petrovic.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].
7 Q. Mr. Sikimic, were you the duty officer at the operational centre
8 of the 9th VPS at the forward command post during the night between the
9 5th and 6th of December 1991?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Since when were you on duty that particular night?
12 A. Between 2400 hours and 0630 hours the next morning.
13 Q. Who did you hand over duty to at 6.30 that morning?
14 A. I handed over to the chief of the operations centre,
15 Frigate Captain Kozaric.
16 Q. What does the handover of duty at the operational centre look
18 A. The handover of duty entails the following: As all the other
19 participants are in the operational centre, and there are no other tasks
20 to be carried out, they get up at 6.00 in the morning, at half past 6.00.
21 The chief of the operational centre, in this case, Frigate Captain
22 Kozaric, for a very long time, takes over personally from whoever was on
23 duty in the following way. He inspects a written document, this document
24 more specifically, and through conversation with his duty officer he finds
25 out about everything that had happened the night before.
1 Q. Mr. Sikimic, tell us about this entry at 5.00 which you say was
2 made by yourself. Is this your handwriting?
3 A. Yes, certainly.
4 Q. The last column of this entry at 5.00, whose signature is there?
5 A. These are my initials, and I still use the same initials.
6 Q. What about the entry at 5.30? Is that your handwriting there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Again, the initials, whose initials are these?
9 A. These are mine.
10 Q. Did anyone alter or correct your entry?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What about the specific times given here in relation to individual
13 entries? Are they correct, and if so, how do you know they are?
14 A. The times are correct because this is exactly how we proceeded,
15 and this is what had been ordered, for all units reports to be gathered at
16 5.00 so that at 5.30 the duty officer coming to take over could be
17 informed as to what had happened the night before.
18 Q. Mr. Sikimic, when do you record the time of a specific entry?
19 A. As events occur. That's when the time is recorded.
20 Q. Does that mean that -- I withdraw this.
21 Mr. Sikimic, first of all, what did you record in the first entry
22 of 5.00? Can you please read that out to us.
23 A. Yes, I can. The first item 3/472, that's the 1st Battalion,
24 during the night, fire had been opened.
25 Q. 3rd Battalion of which brigade?
1 A. The 572nd Brigade, the Kovacevic unit. "During the night,
2 sporadic fire had been opened from infantry weapons against the unit from
3 the direction of Srdj. Fire was not returned." If I may clarify, this is
4 a report by the duty organ of that particular unit being sent to us.
5 The next item, the next battalion, also of another brigade, the
6 Zdravkovic Brigade, did not report, so probably later on we were able to
7 find out how and why. May I proceed?
8 Q. Yes, please do so.
9 A. The TO detachment, during the night, there were no problems; the
10 Mokosica command post, everything all right; the Mirogoj duty officer,
11 everything all right. The 16th Border Naval Detachment, everything all
12 right. This entry was at 5.00 exactly.
13 Q. What did you record at 5.30 on the same day, the 6th of December
15 A. At 5.30, I recorded the following: "Sent a report to the duty
16 officer at Korint," which is a code for one of the superior officers, "on
17 the condition of the units during the night, except for the 3rd Battalion
18 at Kovacevic, everything else was peaceful."
19 Q. Thank you.
20 On page 67, will you please be so kind and tell us, do you
21 recognise the handwriting? Who made the other entries on that page, page
23 A. If memory serves well, this is Frigate Captain Kozaric's
25 Q. Tell us, please --
1 A. No, not judging by the handwriting. But by the signature.
2 Q. And in what column are the signatures, the last one?
3 A. Yes, the last one on the right.
4 Q. Do you know the names of some of the other officers would worked
5 in the operational centre of the forward command post of the 9th VPS?
6 A. Yes, I do remember some of them.
7 Q. Could you give us a few names.
8 A. Frigate Captain Jovo Drljan, Captain Uljarevic, Frigate Captain or
9 perhaps Lieutenant Colonel, I'm not quite sure, Dzelebdjic, and I said
10 that the chief of the operational centre was Frigate Captain, and later
11 Warship Captain Kozaric.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in time,
16 I should like to officially ask the Trial Chamber to introduce this
17 document into evidence as a Defence exhibit.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Which document?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Document -- it's the
20 war logbook of the operational centre of the 9th VPS of the forward
21 command post which was handed out to all parties.
22 JUDGE PARKER: I've received your motion. I've already indicated
23 the course we'll take in respect of it. Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
24 Is that the evidence of the witness?
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Well, can it
1 receive a -- can it be marked for identification, the document, then,
3 JUDGE PARKER: Do you mean page 67 or the whole of the document?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The whole document, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: We can mark it for identification with a Defence
7 THE REGISTRAR: D96 MFI.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation].
10 Q. Mr. Sikimic, I have a few more questions to ask you. Tell us,
11 please, during the time you were on duty on the 6th of December 1991, were
12 you informed that a soldier of the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Brigade had
13 been killed and that two soldiers of that same brigade were wounded?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Would you, or rather, the information about the death or wounding
16 of soldiers, is that an important piece of information?
17 A. Yes, absolutely so.
18 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. There's no time frame asked
19 about when any information might have been communicated. It's just a
20 rather broad question. Can we --
21 JUDGE PARKER: The question was prefaced when he was on duty, but
22 that begs the question when was he on duty other than 5.00 and 5.30.
23 Perhaps you might ask when he commenced and finished duty that day,
24 Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I'll ask the
1 question again.
2 Q. From what time to what time were you on duty, Mr. Sikimic, on the
3 6th of December 1991 in the operational centre of the 9th VPS and its
4 forward command post?
5 A. I've already answered that question, but I can repeat my answer.
6 From 2400 hours to 6.30 hours in the morning of the 6th of December.
7 Q. During that time interval, did you receive information that a
8 soldier had been killed belonging to the 3rd Battalion of the
9 472nd Brigade, other rather that two other soldiers were wounded from that
10 same brigade.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Once again, let me ask you again, would you consider a piece of
13 information like that to be important information?
14 A. Yes, absolutely so, important information.
15 Q. Would you, had you received information of that kind, introduced
16 it and entered it into the logbook, war logbook?
17 A. Yes, I would, in the course of my duty.
18 Q. Was information and reports of this kind, were they recorded as
19 entries into the war logbook of the 9th VPS?
20 A. Yes. And even less important information would also be recorded.
21 So information that was that important would certainly have been entered.
22 Q. The operational centre of the 9th VPS at the forward command post,
23 during the time you were the duty officer, did they receive a report to
24 the effect that an attack had started with some of the units of the
25 9th VPS within the environments of Dubrovnik?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You as the duty officer in the operational centre, did you perhaps
3 receive a report that the attack of the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Brigade
4 had launched an attack on Srdj?
5 A. No.
6 Q. During the time you were on duty once again, were communications
7 from the command post of the 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Brigade working
9 A. Yes. And this can be seen from the logbook. They called in at
10 0500 hours, and I noted that down.
11 Q. Now, during your time as duty officer, did Admiral Jokic contact
12 you at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you call Admiral Jokic during the time you were on duty at
16 A. No.
17 Q. During your term of duty on the 6th of December 1991, did you
18 convey any orders to subordinate units within the composition of the
19 9th VPS at all?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did anybody issue orders to you to ask or establish a contact with
22 some higher officers of the 9th VPS during the time you were on duty
23 during the 6th of December 1991?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did Admiral Jokic ever sleep at the forward command post of the
1 9th VPS in Kupari?
2 A. To the best of my knowledge, no, he did not. And I was there for
3 quite a long period of time. I never saw him spend the night there.
4 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Somers.
6 MS. SOMERS: The question of ever sleeping is one that doesn't
7 have appropriate temporal limitations. The man only came into the area on
8 the 5th of November, and I think that the observation must be limited.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I don't know how else it could be understood.
10 But --
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PARKER: -- you might want to explore it expressly a little
13 further, Mr. Petrovic, to give some substance to the answer.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
15 Q. During the time period that you spent at the forward command post
16 of the 9th VPS, and you've said that that was from the 15th of November
17 1991 onwards, up until the 31st of December 1991, did Admiral Jokic ever
18 spend the night and sleep at the forward command post of the 9th VPS
19 during that time?
20 A. For as long as I was there at the forward command post, during
21 that entire time, Admiral Jokic never spent the night, never slept there.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I have Madam usher's
24 assistance, please, to distribute the next document.
25 Q. Mr. Sikimic, can you tell us what this document is.
1 A. This is the usual type of document, a report, about logistics, or
2 rather from logistics to the superior commands.
3 Q. Who is this report addressed to?
4 A. The report is addressed to the command of the 2nd Operational
5 Group as it says, and the command of the Military Naval District, but to
6 the forward command post which I think was at Vis.
7 Q. Who issued this document?
8 A. This document was issued by the deputy commander for logistics of
9 the 9th VPS, Colonel Petar Dragicevic.
10 Q. Would you take a look at the front page of that document, please,
11 and number 1, the fourth point. Can you read that out, please, tell us
12 what it says.
13 A. Number 4 says the following: "The 3rd Battalion of the
14 472nd Brigade had a full complement in the village of Brgat. It had 80
15 pieces of mines for 120-millimetre mortars, 40 pieces of rockets, 4 Polo 9
16 K 11, 60 pieces of signal bullets, 26-millimetre type, and 40 pieces of
17 rockets." This is a mistake here. It says "mekata," but it should be
18 "raketa metaka," which is bullets, for the T-55 100-millimetre weapon.
19 Q. Tell us, please, is this the standard type of report that would be
20 compiled and sent out to the superior units?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to
23 tender this document as a Defence exhibit.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This document is D97.
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher show the next
2 document to the witness, please.
3 THE INTERPRETER: May the document please be placed on the ELMO
4 for the benefit of the interpreters. Thank you.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Sikimic, what kind of document is this?
7 A. This is also a daily report pertaining to logistics which was sent
8 out to the superior commands.
9 Q. And what is the date of this report?
10 A. It is dated the 5th of December 1991.
11 Q. Who issued this document?
12 A. This document was issued at the command of the 9th Military Naval
13 Sector in Kumbor.
14 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. The question is who issued
15 it, and the response was at the command. I think it's not responsive.
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Sikimic, you said that it was issued by the command of the
18 9th Military Naval Sector. Could you tell us who issued it, who at the
20 A. By the assistant commander for logistics, Colonel Dragicevic.
21 Q. On page 1 of the B/C/S version of this document, would you take a
22 look at that, please, and look at number 1, point 1, where it says "the
23 forward command post of Kupari was replenished." What with? Could you
24 tell us what with pertaining to this report?
25 A. It says plastic explosives, 10 kilograms here; AE1 bombs, 12
1 pieces; AF1 bombs, 12 pieces; 'Zoljas,' 10 pieces; and bullets,
2 7.9-millimetre for snipers. It just says 7/9, but what it means is
3 7.9-millimetre pieces, one crate.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this exhibit as
6 a Defence exhibit, please, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This document is D98.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That was
10 the examination-in-chief of this witness.
11 JUDGE PARKER: I take it, Ms. Somers, it would be convenient to
12 have a break now.
13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour. It certainly
15 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Somers.
18 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sikimic.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. Sorry, just make sure I'm not drowning out the microphone, here.
23 Mr. Sikimic, for your entire military career, have you been
24 involved with the logistics side of duties?
25 A. Yes. Throughout my military career, I have been involved with
1 logistics, logistics, support for the rear.
2 Q. Okay. Now, in connection with your assuming the role within the
3 IKM at Kupari around November 15th, had you been a duty officer before?
4 Had you had occasion to handle the functions of duty officer?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where? Could you tell us, please?
7 A. Wherever I've worked. This is a perfectly routine job for every
8 professional military officer, being the duty officer or the operations
9 duty officer is a perfectly normal thing for a professional military
11 Q. Your operational training would include what, if anything?
12 A. May I just be allowed to clarify one thing: There is no specific
13 training for being duty officer. Whoever is in a specific place at a
14 specific time has already been trained to, among other things, be the duty
15 officer in certain places.
16 Q. Had you familiarised yourself with the various issues, if any,
17 surrounding or concerning the units that were in the area of
18 responsibility at the time, say, from the 15th of November? And
19 specifically looking up to 6th of December, found yourself?
20 A. Yes. I understand your question. I was familiarised, not on the
21 15th, but as of the 15th of November. As for your questions in relation
22 to my training and in relation to the reason why I had been dispatched to
23 the forward command post which was to provide logistical support for the
24 units, it's within the framework of that issue, providing logistics
25 support for the units.
1 Q. And had you become familiar with what was occurring, what stage
2 the actions in that area were at at the time you came in to the area?
3 A. As for the specific stages, no, I had not become familiar with
4 those. But that was not part of my remit, my job description. But I did
5 become familiarised with the current situation and what was to follow.
6 Again, I must say, within my remit, my job description, which is the
7 logistics support for the rear.
8 Q. If I can ask you -- I'd like to ask you a question from the
9 document that was dated the 4th of December, if I can ask my colleague
10 Ms. McCreath to pass it to me, and I'll give you the number.
11 It is D97. Let me see if this is the one I'm...
12 Do you have it in front of you, sir?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Would you be good enough to turn to or to put your attention
15 to -- under item number 1. It says, in English, "40 pieces of rockets for
16 Polo 9K11." That is Maljutka, is that not? That refers to a weapon, the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm finished with that document.
20 The diary, the diary that has been marked for identification as
21 D96 - thank you - I'd like to ask you --
22 MS. SOMERS: Sorry.
23 Q. Looking at some of the points that are on page 67, to which your
24 attention was directed, I'd like to ask you, have you looked at the diary
25 generally before you came here?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I'm going to ask you, at the entry of 6.50, 6.50, it says
3 "Captain Kovacevic" - I'm reading you from the English, so you'll have to
4 accept whatever translation was given to you; I apologise if it isn't as
5 clean as the Serbo-Croatian version - "fire was opened by the
6 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Motorised Brigade on Srdj. He decided alone to
7 do so with MB120." What is MB120 referring to, please?
8 A. This is an artillery weapon. It's a mortar. MB120 millimetres.
9 Q. Looking a bit further down,"7.30. At 9.30, Kovacevic is to call
10 Jokic in Cavtat." And then looking at 7.40: "I transmitted the order of
11 the commander of the 90th VPS to Kovacevic. However he is already in a
12 situation where he cannot cease fire because he has already emerged on to
13 the mountain range in the region of Gruska Glava, Jevica. He will see
14 what can be done." Now, whose entry is that, if you are able to tell us?
15 Do you have the Serbo-Croatian version?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ...
18 A. I don't know. I can't say. I don't think I could speak about
19 someone else's handwriting. All I can tell you is that this is not my
21 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me just a second.
22 Q. If you turn to what is page 68, please, 9.00 entry: "Precisely
23 determine who and when opened fire. Captain Kovacevic is to write a
24 statement to the commander." Is it clear to you who may have put that
25 entry in?
1 A. Well, as I said a moment ago, at the forward command post, the
2 duty of the operational centre was Frigate Captain Kozaric. Whether he
3 was the one who made this entry or someone who was the duty officer at the
4 time I really can't say. There are two possibilities. It may have been
5 him or someone who was on duty at the time. Now, who was on duty, where,
6 and what I really can't say anything about these.
7 Q. Where is in the Serbo-Croatian edition and also in the English
8 translation, there is a little symbol. It looks like a Greek letter with
9 the number 107 after it. Do you see that? It would be next to
10 the -- let's say, 8.55 entry on page 68.
11 A. Yes, I see that.
12 Q. Would you be able to decipher and explain what that entry means,
13 please? There's a symbol attached to it, its meaning.
14 A. No. No, this looks like a summa, summarum 107, but what that is
15 in relation to, I really can't say.
16 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me just a second. I want to go back.
17 Q. Now, during the time period that you are on duty, up to -- well,
18 the only entry I think that would be necessarily within your time frame
19 would be the last entry of 5.30 - would that be correct - on page 67 for
20 that date, 5.30?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. There is no -- there is nothing transmitted about death or injury
23 to any units. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In fact -- excuse me. It was -- the reference is to occasional
1 fire, occasional fire.
2 A. Yes. But if I may be allowed to clarify, sporadic fire, but on
3 the basis of this report and what I was told and what I recorded, sporadic
4 fire from infantry weapons against that particular unit and from the
5 direction of Srdj by the enemy.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.
7 The entry that I think you identified in chief, a signature of
8 Mr. Kozaric, which is evident from the -- at least it is shown on page 68,
9 if his signature appears as writing during the shift after yours, does
10 that indicate to you that he, in fact, would have made other entries that
11 were listed between the end of your shift and anything from the next
12 shift, whether his name appears there or not, if it appears in two places,
13 if there are other entries where it might be absent, would it suggest to
14 you it would also be he, Captain Kozaric, who would be making those
15 entries if it was still during what would be his shift?
16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't believe the
17 answer is clear because you can't tell which two places are being referred
18 to. May this please be clarified.
19 MS. SOMERS:
20 Q. For example, on page 67, you see entries that have
21 Captain Kozaric's name, let's say at 7.15 or 7.30, and you don't see it
22 for 7.40. But would it be a logical -- would it be logical that he would
23 have been the individual making the entry as well? If his name appears
24 right above the 7.40 entry and if it were he on duty, would it be he to
25 the best of your knowledge who would be making those entries?
1 A. I don't know that at all. After duty, I left the operational
2 centre, and I started going about my own tasks from my own area of
3 activity. It would have been logical for Kozaric who was the next in line
4 to sign it, but this may also have not been the case. This would require
5 an analysis to be carried out by a handwriting expert. He may have been
6 the one who signed it, but he didn't put his initials there.
7 Q. That happens from time to time, doesn't it?
8 A. Yes, of course it does, in haste. You just forget. You forget to
9 place your initials there. This wouldn't be the first time for something
10 like that to happen.
11 Q. And particularly if there are events going on that are perhaps out
12 of the ordinary. Right?
13 A. I could agree with you, yes.
14 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me.
15 Q. Could you tell us, please, what are the shift times? You worked
16 from 2400 to 6.30. How did the shifts run? What were they broken down in
18 A. The forward command post in the narrow sense of the word, the core
19 of the people who were there, all the people who were at the forward
20 command post, the total of the people who were there, I'm talking about
21 between 10 and 15 people as a rule, and those were then broken down in
22 shifts covering the entire day except if someone was absent on whatever
23 mission, all the men were inside and around the operational centre. Every
24 six hours, according to a predetermined schedule, they would take turns,
25 and you knew who was on duty. I can't say myself, because I only arrived
1 later, what the schedule was or who had drawn it up. But I suppose it
2 must have been one of the chiefs of the operational centre who had drawn
3 up that particular schedule.
4 Q. Looking at the entry on page 67 for 7.05, it is -- it reads: "I
5 called Kovacevic. He is still opening fire on Srdj. I ordered that
6 except in the case of fatal situation he is not to open fire with the
7 120-millimetre." Now, in the original, in the Serbo-Croatian original,
8 there is a name next to the entry. Would you be able to tell us whose
9 name it is, please? It's not indicated in the English translation.
10 A. The name is the same. But it's about the initials. The initials
11 belong to Mr. Kozaric in relation to this entry at 7.05.
12 Q. And in relation to -- let's see, we asked you about 7.15. "7.15,
13 positions on Strincjera," I think that's possibly an English typo, "were
14 hit from Srdj around 600 hours with Zoljas and MB82s." And whose name
15 appears in the column on the right next to that entry?
16 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand you. Which time are you referring
18 Q. 7.15.
19 A. The initials are also those of Frigate Captain, Captain Kozaric.
20 Q. Do you happen to know where that night Admiral Jokic --
21 A. I apologise for interrupting you. But I believe I've pointed this
22 out earlier. It's been a long time. It is my impression that these are
23 the initials of Mr. Kozaric, but I can't see with certainty. The only
24 thing I can speak about with any degree of certainty is my own signature.
25 It's difficult to fake since my handwriting is really poor. In all
1 likelihood, I can tell you that these are his initials since
2 Captain Rade Kozaric was the one who took over at this time, that is given
3 here, and continued to record the entries.
4 Q. Thank you for that.
5 We were talking I think for a minute about 7.15, and then let me
6 just make sure I've got you -- 7.30 on page 67, the entry for 7.30:
7 "Kovacevic is to call Jokic - now I'm not sure, in English there's
8 a -- "Kovacevic is to call Jokic in Cavtat." Are you able also to assist
9 us with what you believe to be the set of initials, or whose initials you
10 believe it to be, or perhaps name is in the column at the end of that?
11 A. Just as I've already said, Frigate Captain Kozaric, I assume.
12 Q. I've asked you already about 7.40, although it doesn't have the
13 name or initials in the column.
14 Let me just take a look at the -- 7.47, please, on page 67. It
15 says: "I transmitted to Captain Blaza Jovanovic to order Colonel Jankovic
16 and Lieutenant Colonel Bojovic that an absolute cease-fire is to take
17 place today at 1200 hours." Are you able to assist us with whose name may
18 appear or is most likely to appear in the column at the end of that?
19 A. I think the answer is the same like a few minutes ago.
20 Q. Just a point of clarification: It is -- it appears these are not
21 just notes that are taken down by a man sitting behind a desk. These are
22 entries that bear a seal, do they not, a stamp of the -- well, if you can
23 tell us what stamp is on there, that would be helpful. Do they bear a
24 stamp? Does each page with entries bear a stamp?
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I explain what
1 this is about, because --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Let the witness -- you may wish to add something
3 later, Mr. Petrovic. The witness can deal with the question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember exactly, but I
5 don't think that there was a stamp on every page of the war diary. This
6 can be a stamp from something else. Maybe a certification of the
7 photocopy or something? Anyway, I cannot say anything about the stamp.
8 MS. SOMERS:
9 Q. Can you just help us --
10 A. Can I just explain this, may I? Usually either on the first page
11 or on the last page of the diary, there would be a particular text stating
12 that this document contains such and such a number of pages, and then it
13 is given a seal with the person who is entitled to use the document. And
14 I'm not sure that there was any such thing there.
15 Q. On this particular page, if you look at page 67, for example, do
16 you see a stamp? Does your page have a stamp on? Let's say next to the
17 entry for 5.00, can you read it?
18 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
19 Q. Would you be kind enough to read the stamp.
20 A. No, I can't. I can't. It's not legible.
21 Q. Flip the page.
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We don't want to interrupt the witness. I think I
24 know what you're going to say. I've worked it out already, but we've...
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the next page, it is legible.
2 This is a stamp from the military archives that probably gave this
3 document. You will have to ask the person who brought these documents.
4 But the stamp on this page is that of the military archives. So it's the
5 military archives that allowed this to be photocopied, and I assume that
6 this document is still in the military archives. So that's the stamp that
7 you're asking me about, and it has nothing to do with the situation in
9 MS. SOMERS:
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Now, these reports in their format were sent to the
12 2nd Operational Group, the 9th VPS. Correct? Commands of?
13 A. Would you please explain that. Could you explain what report
14 you're referring to.
15 Q. Any of the entries, in other words, the entire set of entries
16 would be directed both to the 2nd Operational Group command as well as the
17 command of the 9th VPS. Correct?
18 A. No, no, not this one. A special report was made. The commander
19 or the head of the operations centre sent this precisely to the addresses
20 that you just mentioned. So it's not that this particular information was
21 sent, but everything that was essential from this and other pieces of
22 information, that is what was sent precisely to those addressees. And
23 then that would be signed by the sector commander or his deputy or the
24 chief of the operations centre.
25 Q. Can you tell us what particular duties a duty officer actually
1 attends to besides, for example, taking down communications? What other
2 duties were part of your assignment or taskings in that function?
3 A. No other duties. The duty of the duty officer is precisely to
4 convey to all units in our area of responsibility of the forward command
5 post the orders of the commander or the orders of anyone else who may be
6 in charge. And it also works in the opposite direction, to receive all
7 reports and all other information from units within that zone.
8 Q. The night between 5th December and 6th, do you know where
9 Admiral Miodrag Jokic was, where he slept? Do you know personally?
10 A. I absolutely know that he was not in Kupari at the forward command
11 post, and I really do not know where he was.
12 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about a few pages further, if I
13 could, please.
14 If you can look, let's see -- sorry. I thought I had it marked.
15 I don't mean to take your time. On page 68 at 11.07, please, it says:
16 "Stop the activities of POC; at 11.15, stop all further actions.
17 Absolutely cease all action against the town. Transmitted to Kovacevic
19 What do the abbreviations POC stand for, please?
20 A. What time entry are you reading out?
21 Q. 11.07. Do you see it at 11.07 on page --
22 A. No. Oh, I do, yes, yes.
23 Q. What would that abbreviation stand for, please?
24 A. I don't know. It is not a military abbreviation. It's not one of
25 the regular military abbreviations.
1 Q. So you are not familiar with that particular abbreviation?
2 A. Perhaps it is logistics company, Pozadinska Ceta, but this is not
3 the way to write it.
4 Q. Looking at page 70, please, 70, there's a -- at 13.05, there is an
5 entry -- there are two actually. And one of them has a remark in the
6 right-hand column where it says "captain of the battleship, Zec." What
7 does the name appearing in that right-hand column referring to when it
8 says "captain of the battleship, Zec"? What would that mean?
9 A. Precisely what you said. These are the initials of Battleship
10 Captain Milan Zec.
11 Q. Does that mean that that is the person whose words are being
12 communicated, that it is coming from that person? In other words, this
13 person is not at the duty station, but the communication is coming from
14 that person. Is that what that would mean?
15 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand what you were saying. Could you
16 please repeat it.
17 Q. Sure. It says "captain of the battleship Zec." Does that mean as
18 far as you know, your understanding of how these entries were made, that
19 the entry was made by Zec, the actual physical entry in that log, or does
20 it mean that a message was communicated or conveyed by Captain Zec?
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just have one
22 suggestion actually by your leave without interfering with the question.
23 I don't know if the witness is looking at the original or the copy into
24 B/C/S. Perhaps it could be better if he looked at the original. Oh, I
25 see, he is looking at the original. I see.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now. May I?
2 According to what is written here, it means that the person who
3 made this note put his initials here. I cannot recognise everybody's
4 handwriting of all the people who were there, but theory says, and this is
5 what we did in practice, too, the person making the entry should put his
6 initials there as well. So now I cannot tell whether this is this
7 person's or that person's signature or initials.
8 MS. SOMERS:
9 Q. Or if, in fact, it was the person himself or a message conveyed on
10 behalf of the person. It's not clear from here. Is that what might be?
11 A. I can just give my own opinion, that that is the -- those are the
12 initials of the person who received and conveyed that message. Because if
13 it was a conveyed message, then the person would put his message and
15 Q. On page 70, at 13.49, let me see if I can read it, page 70, 13.49,
16 Frigate Captain Handzijev was ordered to call Bileca and Trebinje and to
17 immediately order Colonel Kovacevic to come to the IKM KVPS. Can we
18 identify a few people there. Who is Frigate Captain --
19 A. Yes, Frigate Captain Handzijev was the duty officer, or rather the
20 head of the operations centre. Now, I'm making an assumption, but I'm 99
21 per cent sure of this, head of the operations centre of the 9th Military
22 Naval Sector in Kumbor.
23 Q. And the reference to calling Bileca and Trebinje, what to your
24 knowledge was at Bileca and Trebinje?
25 A. I assume that it is superior command.
1 Q. And who is Colonel Kovacevic? Do you know that,
2 Colonel Kovacevic?
3 A. I don't know. I do know, though, that in the command of the
4 9th Military Sector there was a Colonel Gavro Kovacevic, if I can remember
5 correctly, who was one of the assistant commanders of the 9th sector. I
6 assume this is a reference to him since Handzijev is being ordered to find
8 Q. You answered my question of what was at Bileca and Trebinje. You
9 said the superior command. Which superior command is at, if you know,
10 Bileca and Trebinje?
11 A. I'm sorry, I did not say supreme command. I said superior
13 Q. That's what I just said in English. Perhaps it was translated
14 incorrectly into your language.
15 A. That's what I'm assuming. I have to point out once again that I'm
16 an officer who was involved in logistics. And I'm afraid that you are not
17 going to have much use as far as I'm concerned for matters such as drawing
18 maps, unit deployment, because in practice I really dealt with logistics
19 only so I don't know very much.
20 Q. I don't want you to draw a map. I just want to ask you -- when
21 you say, "I assume that it is the superior command," about Bileca and
22 Trebinje, which superior command are you referring to? What did you have
23 in mind when you said that?
24 A. The command of the 2nd Operational Group.
25 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me, please, just a point of
1 clarification, what is the situation? Do you have bunkbeds? Is there a
2 sleeping accommodation in the operations centre where you were working at
3 Kupari? Could you give us a physical description of how it is? If
4 someone is sitting at the duty desk, where are the other persons whom you
5 described as being around the operations centre or in?
6 A. Yes, I can do that. The operational centre was in the hotel
7 building. The operational centre itself consisted of two rooms which were
8 joined. They weren't separate. In both these rooms in one we had the
9 communications centre, and the war diary where everything was entered and
10 recorded as we had discussed it.
11 In the first room which was a larger room, there was a big table
12 with some other things, maps, instructions, and other things. And the
13 people were there at all times. And each of them was engaged in his own
14 line of work. There were no beds. We all had our own rooms, or rather
15 offices where we saw to those matters that didn't have to be seen to in
16 the communal room, if I could put it that way.
17 Q. And when you say that there were people there at all times, do you
18 mean there were persons other than the man at the desk or the woman at the
19 desk, let's say the man, at the duty desk present 24 hours a day, 7 days a
20 week? There was always another person in the duty -- in the operations
22 A. I didn't say it was next to the duty officer, but in the first
23 room, and the people spent their time in the operational centre in the
24 first room mostly, whereas the communication equipment was in the second
25 room linked and connected to the first room. And that's where the duty
1 officer had to be as a rule or some senior officer who was able to record
2 events in that particular document.
3 Q. As between the first and second rooms which were connected, was
4 there always a second person around and available in the event something
5 were to come up or something were to happen to the man at the duty desk
6 taking communications?
7 A. Yes, I said that a moment ago. Most of the time everybody was in
8 the first room, except from 2400 hours till morning when there was a
9 schedule as to who was supposed to be where when.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me just a sec.
12 Q. On page 70 -- I'm sorry, I was asking you a question. I dropped
13 it off in midpoint. I was interested in the other point.
14 Explaining a little bit more, when it said that Colonel Kovacevic
15 was to come to the IKM KVPS, where was he to come to? What did that mean?
16 You just explained who Frigate Captain Handzijev was, you told us about
17 Bileca and Trebinje, and you mentioned Colonel Kovacevic, and he was come
18 to the IKM KVPS. What location is that referring to, please?
19 A. That means in Kupari at the forward command post which is where
20 the IKM of the 9th VPS was.
21 Q. Which is where you --
22 A. Specifically, in Kupari, the operational centre. And as it didn't
23 say anything else, doesn't say anything else, that's what it implies.
24 Q. Okay. I want to ask you about another... Sorry, I've lost the
25 area I was looking for.
1 Could you go back to page 66. That is actually an entry from the
2 5th of December. Where it says the time 19.40. Do you see that on page
3 66, 19.40, the entry? It says "Dubrovnik" -- you don't see it? Let's
4 make sure you have it in front of you. Page 66.
5 A. I see, 65, 66, yes.
6 Q. You have it? Okay.
7 A. 66. I've got it.
8 Q. Okay. Could you look at the entry for 19.40, please. 19.40. It
9 says "Dubrovnik Crisis Staff to the command of the VPS Boka, we ask that
10 you certify the unimpeded and safe passage of the ship 'ARGOS II' for the
11 talks scheduled tomorrow at 1000 hours in Cavtat." And it says,
12 "Dubrovnik Crisis Staff." Now that entry indicates that the message came
13 from Dubrovnik Crisis Staff to your duty station? That's correct?
14 A. It was sent to the command of the military naval sector. Now, why
15 it was sent to the IKM, I really can't say, the forward command post,
16 because that didn't come within my remit at the time nor was I engaged in
17 affairs of that type. I was just able to convey something that had
18 been -- that I had been ordered. But yes, from the Crisis Staff of
19 Dubrovnik, that's correct. But the command, not the IKM, the forward
20 command post, but the command.
21 Q. If you look at 19.42 on that same page, "KVPS Boka, Dubrovnik
22 Crisis Staff: We permit and guarantee the safe passage of the ship 'ARGOS
23 II' on 6/12/1991 on the route Dubrovnik harbour, Cavtat harbour, Dubrovnik
24 harbour from 0900 hours until the arrival to the Dubrovnik harbour." And
25 it appears to signed of command of the VPS. Whose name, if you can tell,
1 if you're able to see, appears in the column, the right-hand column?
2 A. In the tenth column, there is nobody's name. There is just an
3 entry, a remark, stating that the text was dictated and handed over to
4 Frigate Captain Handzijev in Kumbor. That mean this document, this text
5 was handed over, and they were supposed to send on this exact message.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Now, we move basically on to your area. And the entry -- the
8 entry at 5.30 on the morning of the 6th on page 67, what is Korint? It
9 says DO -- if you turn to page 67. And it's an entry that has your
10 initials, I believe, by it. What does "DO on Korint" mean?
11 A. DO Korint means duty officer of some unit bearing the name of
12 Korint or Corinth. So it was the coded name for a particular unit, and
13 that particular coded name was Korint, to the duty officer.
14 Q. Do you know what that unit was?
15 A. Duty operations officer. I really can't remember. These are
16 coded names for units. There were a lot of -- a lot of time has gone by
17 since then, there was a lot of duty work, so I really can't say.
18 MS. SOMERS: May I inquire of the Chamber. I have maybe another
19 15 or so minutes that I'd like to use. But will the Chamber be addressing
20 any administrative matters this evening? I would otherwise ask to have
21 tomorrow. I believe we're starting at 9.00, I'm told.
22 JUDGE PARKER: So you will not finish tonight.
23 MS. SOMERS: I will not. I need a little bit more time tomorrow,
24 but I believe we were informed that there might be some admin matters.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I think we can leave the evidence then until
2 I must ask you, Mr. Sikimic, if you would return tomorrow at 0900,
3 9.00 in the morning, when we will be continuing the evidence. Thank you
4 for that.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE PARKER: And there is a question that might be able to dealt
7 with tonight. The witness could go now if he likes.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I be allowed to
9 just briefly to raise a problem and ask for your assistance in solving it.
10 The accused informed us that tomorrow morning he has a dentist's
11 appointment. Now, I do not know whether we know anything about that and
12 how we're going to get round that and solve it in view of the fact that we
13 had a situation previously where we were supposed to sit in the afternoon
14 tomorrow. I'm just putting the problem to Your Honours. I don't know how
15 to go about solving it.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Do you know what time is the appointment?
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] At 8.00, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE PARKER: We have two choices, Mr. Petrovic: Clearly your
19 client should go to the dentist. We either commence at, say, 10.00 and
20 sit a little later into the day, or we sit again at 2.15. But the problem
21 with 2.15 is that it keeps your client up late, and so we've tried to move
22 to the morning as often as we can. Would you just confer as to whether a
23 10.00 start would be preferable.
24 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was a previous
1 dental appointment which had to be put off because the dentist had a
2 traffic accident apparently. I feel that faced with the situation, the
3 best idea would be that the dentist's appointment go ahead at 8.00, and
4 that we go at 10.00 as you have just suggested. And then if necessary, to
5 go on for longer hours in the afternoon. I think that might be the best
6 solution, as you yourself stated.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume tomorrow at 10.00 in the
8 morning, 10.00, not 9.00. Understand?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: You can go with the court officer now. Thank you
11 very much.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE PARKER: The quick procedural matter I wanted to raise was
15 there's a Defence motion for a videolink for the taking of the evidence of
16 one witness, and that's wanted for next week. Given the time that's
17 necessary to arrange these things, the sooner we deal with the motion the
19 Is there any objection to the motion, Ms. Somers?
20 MS. SOMERS: The initial reaction of the Prosecution, Your Honour,
21 was that -- I mean, it is viva voce and it is live testimony. But the
22 difficulty occurs sometimes with exhibits, and particularly if we are
23 given really very late whatever information the Defence has or wishes to
24 convey to us about the witness. So whereas distinguishing, from let's
25 say, Dr. Blum's testimony where everything was well in advance provided,
1 that is not the case with some fact witnesses.
2 If on humanitarian ground, and again, not meaning to sound
3 skeptical, but we would ask perhaps for some documentation to the effect
4 that this is the case or a representation as to what the nature of it is.
5 And if the Chamber is satisfied that there really is a medical urgency or
6 a medical need, we would not stand in the way of the witness testifying,
7 if it's important that the evidence be heard. But obviously, the first
8 preference is for live, in-court testimony, particularly where there may
9 be documents. And if there's some way of confirming what the actual
10 nature of the situation is ... Could it be handled with a one-day in,
11 one-day out, quick turnaround time the witness, because the witnesses seem
12 to be going fairly quickly here. Would that also accommodate?
13 JUDGE PARKER: Don't be relaxed with the quick pace of progress
14 with witnesses.
15 The nature of the condition of the witness and the witness's wife,
16 Mr. Petrovic?
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I be allowed to
18 respond all the three points put forward by my learned colleague. The
19 first point is this: With respect to the documents that we intend to use
20 through the witness in light of the fact that some of the documents were
21 handed in later than usual, than is customary, all the documents, if the
22 Trial Chamber agrees to our request, we will have at least -- the
23 documents will be sent to the Prosecutor at least seven days in advance so
24 that they can get -- become acquainted with all the documents. And there
25 will only be two. I'd like to make that clear straight away.
1 The second point I would like to respond to is to say that it has
2 been our practice in the previous situation when the Trial Chamber agreed
3 to have a videolink testimony for the Prosecution witness, despite the
4 skepticism we displayed, did not imply the need for medical documents to
5 be shown to confirm what was written in that request. This kind of
6 practice was not asked for, nor was it availed of in the Prosecution
7 request for a videolink.
8 And now to go on to point 3, Your Honour, this is a witness who is
9 a retired person. He has a wife who is sick and who undergoes constant
10 medical assistance. And she is at the medical academy in Belgrade. We
11 can supply the medical documents referring to her, and she is undergoing
12 constant therapy. But I'm afraid I'm not sure that this will be possible
13 over the next 24 hours that we have. We need at least 24 hours for
14 preparing the videolink, but we can do our best to come by those documents
15 and thereby support the assertions made in our request. And let me also
16 say that the witness is a very important witness, and I assume that were
17 it not for these problems, the witness would appear in this Court.
18 And our request and all the circumstances surrounding our request
19 is fully in line with the practice that this Tribunal has resorted to in
20 the past. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 In the circumstances, the Trial Chamber is prepared to deal with
23 the motion now and to order that the testimony of the witness will be
24 given by videoconference link, but it does take up your suggestion,
25 Mr. Petrovic, and it requires that any documents that are to be used by
1 the Defence in the course of the evidence of the witness should be
2 provided to the Prosecution seven days before the evidence is led. That
3 way, we will minimise any possible inconvenience to the Prosecution from
4 this arrangement, but will allow you to meet the needs of the witness.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume, then, tomorrow at 10.00 in the
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of July,
10 2004, at 10.00 a.m.